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BionicDance1 week ago









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BionicDance
3 days ago


Oh, you have to piss me off pretty bad before I start losing it.
Like acting like a brick wall, where logic, reason, and evidence bounce right the hell off of someone. Or not letting what other people say affect what they're going to say next; you don't have to agree, but don't be a damned broken record.
Basically, if you decide to be frustrating, yeah, I might just unload on you. Or just block your ass.
But if you decide to have a rational, reasonable, and open-minded, back-and-forth, two-way discussion, you will never incur my wrath.
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VinnyMonster1
3 days ago


+BionicDance One of the many reasons I subscribe to your channel. 



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Charlie sc5 days ago







Good video.

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gothatfunk1 week ago







"you can't play that ignorance role..."
says the guy playing the ignorant role.

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eire138
1 week ago


problem is...I doubt he was playing a role...



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Dragnauct Sylvas6 days ago







A theist conflating terms for their own use and strawman'ing our positions? Never.

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Bunto Skiffler6 days ago







BD, absolutely serious here. Next time you do vid like this... use simple diagrams for him.  Just saying

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Charlie sc
5 days ago


+BionicDance I have a feeling he realises he is wrong, but he's gone too far down the rabbit hole to turn back and admit his defeat.



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BionicDance
4 days ago


+Charlie sc I think that's likely, yes.
There is no greater enemy to rational discussion than excessive ego and endangered dignity.



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Robert Wallace1 week ago







It's Atheist Baby season !

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BionicDance
1 week ago


+Robert Wallace Right on the button. 



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Robert Wallace
1 week ago


=D



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anthonyg59911 week ago







Have you ever addressed the kalam cosmological argument? 

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Anthony Gloria
1 week ago


Would you accept acts of impossibilities concerning causal or logical connections as evidence?



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BionicDance
1 week ago


+Anthony Gloria Can these "impossibilities" be shown objectively and tested in a lab?



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Charles Kunkle1 week ago







now I just love this guy's argument... I misunderstand the English language, and do not even know how to look up the meanings of words, so everyone has to use my incorrect definitions for things.

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lec06216 days ago







I think I just heard someone storm off and call us names.  Forget this jerk.  He's as dishonest as the day is long...maybe longer.  Don't wrestle with pigs....

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BrianJ19621 week ago







"Ignorance of belief in God" would be, in a broad sense, ig-theism and be closer to reflecting babies than any option requiring some understanding of the deity concept and making a decision regarding acceptance, or dismissal of that concept. But we've had that discussion before - lol - and I'm not going to re-open that particular can-o-worms. So I'll attempt your new angle on atheist / theist bi-polarism...
As for a word to describe the concept "the number of gods believed in is zero", this would only be of 'use' in such a bi-polar sense - and, if used as a mechanism to bolster demographic numbers, absolutely meaningless - as many of those babies designated "atheist" would, upon eventual cogitation of the concept, actually turn out to be "theist" - thereby kinda invalidating the 'utility' of the resulting demographic with regards actual, cognitive 'opinion' in discussions on any topic...
Unless, of course, there is some 'value' in the inclusion of the pre-supposed 'opinion' of those inherently without an opinion on any specific topic matter when it comes to discussion of said topic?
The only other 'utility' I can see, is a means to insinuate oneself into a 'default' position - thereby absolving oneself of any onus to substantiate one's decision-making process when it comes to discussion of the reasons "why" one holds the position one does on any given topic / concept - essentially halting any 'dialogue' beyond establishing an "I don't have to prove anything; but let's discuss you" 'beachhead' from which to speak...
Surely it's the "why do you think this?" discussions that holds more 'value' than a simple evaluation of the concept one adheres to?
If there are other 'motivations' for "needing" formalisation of this concept in society, or 'utility' in the application of it for demographic evaluation purposes - please enlighten us? But in essence, if that is the concept you "need a word for", then I agree - you are going to have to come up with a new one in order to prevent re-defining something already in common usage.
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BrianJ1962
6 days ago


+BionicDance
And, of course, your initial reply was totally devoid of 'snark' (now who's bring their pre-formed opinions to the table?)...
"The idea is to have a base from which to even start the discussion."
The discussion is already open. The issue is whether, or not, babies are "default" (I would posit yes), and if that default is a "no" to the question 'Do you believe in a god, or gods?" (I would posit no).
In my original comment, I posed the question whether, or not, there were any potential (or utility) in the bi-polar position you keep advocating (especially as you have simply dismissed the possibility of any third alternative - "whether there is some third, neutral category...which there is not.")
You, however, decided to 'attack' me on the basis of what you thought I was arguing ("you argue that I'm trying to re-define terms that are already in common use") - whereas I was merely extrapolating the potentials from the inclusion of those inherently without an opinion in a discussion about what opinion is actually held.
You're the one trying to find conflict between us here, not I. And, if you wish to persist rather than have the actual discussion, that's fine - I'll leave you to it.
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BionicDance
6 days ago


+BrianJ1962 As a matter of fact, yes; my initial reply was devoid of snark. But I suppose I should expect you to lash out when put on the defensive. *rolls eyes*
That's been your MO since I've known you, frankly. I think I no longer have any use for your presence; never darken my internet again.



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Star Laughter1 week ago (edited)







I'm sorry this is off topic, but every time I watch your video's I desperately want to reach out and tuck your hair behind your ears! I have always had long hair, and find it uncomfortable to feel hair in my face. Hell, I did it at least once to a wisp that got blown by my air-con during this sentence :)
"Let you have the word atheism, but we're going to need another word"
Love that idea! Of course they would hijack and misrepresent any position we took, as it threatened to push an iota of reason into the equation.
Here's an "ism" that I think aptly describes this bloke.... "egocentrism".
"Every baby is ignorant"
Yep, and for nearly 200 thousand years of human life (or more) humans were all ignorant to the Judeo-Christian God. Isn't that more evidence that he isn't much of a God more than him being a loving God who wants a personal relationship with someone?
I have to say, BD, it has been pleasant to not only grow myself through my years on YT arguing and debating with others, but I have seen that in you too. You used to be a lot more hot-headed and insulting to these types of believers (as I was) and now you are much more calm. It's easier for them to respond thoughtfully I think when they're not on the defensive (I'm sure you know), but I still have trouble not just making a passing remark about their lack of intelligence some days :D
Anywho, good video, thanks.
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Star Laughter
1 week ago


+BionicDance Just don't be offended if every now and then a random hand comes slowly towards your face :D
I agree, this sort of approach seems much more effective (especially towards the undecided agnostic sorts) than the old name and shame type stuff.
Having said that, sometimes they say something so silly that it seems deserving of nothing less than utter ridicule, but this usually has a negative effect on me 8( 
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BionicDance
1 week ago


+Star Laughter Well, I have to admit, I had to reeeeeeeaaaaally hold back when he made those comments about atheists thinking they're smarter, and the should-have-been-a-psychiatrist line. Egad...talk about just handing it to someone, neh?
What I have to remember is that I'm not just talking to the person I'm responding to; I'm trying to convince all the people watching, as well.
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Inannalu1 week ago







Maybe he's conflating "atheist" with "apostate" (one who denounces a faith previously adhered to).  Many atheists are indeed apostates, but one does not need to be an apostate in order to be an atheist.

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Matthew Bannock
1 week ago


I think that you are correct. 



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Red Cloud1 week ago







I agree with you, in every part, except one, and for me, this is a big one, and causes Much frustration. Ignorance is Not a derogatory term, and only people who take offence, are those who literally don't know better, and the only people who Use the term in a derogatory manner are those too Stupid to understand. There Is NO shame in ignorance, there's Nothing wrong with not knowing an answer to a question, however being unable, or unwilling to take and/or comprehend new information Does incur that something is wrong with You. That is Stupidity, a lack of ability or willingness to learn, Ignorance is merely a lack of information, or education, and they are Very different. See what I mean about labels? They've become so muddled, so incorrectly used, so confused...I Know we can do better, and so can damn near everyone else, some people just don't know they can, and so it's our responsibility to show them through example. 
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Red Cloud
1 week ago


+hotdoh I disagree, I don't think because the word, or its usage is misinterpreted by a majority, makes the misinterpretation true or valid in any sort of way. To me, that just means the majority is misinformed, and it's the responsibility of those who know better to show them that they're wrong, how they're wrong, and that it's ok to be wrong, so long as you're willing to do and be right. Besides, when you put that kind of stigma on a word that literally means "a lack of knowledge, understanding, or education", and start to make it as derogatory as Stupid, you start to stifle chances for communication, and learning. All of a sudden people are afraid to show what they don't know, so that they can get answers, because of some Label, that people use Wrong. Words have meaning for a Reason. 
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Ziliath
1 week ago


+Red Cloud
I agree with hotdoh, even if it is by definition descriptive rather than a slanderous term, it is perceived as such. its used to denote a lack of somethig, when there is a lack of something, by comparison somebody else is superior by contrast, this is where the insult comes from, while sure it is stupid of people to use this as a type of slander, it happens, and the resulting superiority by contrast leave the person with a bad feeling to the concept. thus its taken as an insult.
and while everything you said about putting the stigma on the word is true... its also accurate to reality, there is this stigma.
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claudiaquat1 week ago







Dude, the American Psychiatric Association thanks you for not attempting to enter the field.

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adir mugrabi1 week ago







i wish that NO ONE used the word Atheist!

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BionicDance
1 week ago


So? This isn't gonna make it any better.



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oscargordon
6 days ago


+adir mugrabi So I think I might be starting to understand where you are coming from.  As BD pointed out in her vid, we regularly stick an "a" in front of a word to indicate that something is not a part of a particular group.  We have a perfectly good word that is clearly defined in any modern dictionary to indicate that you are not a part of the group that believes in the existence of gods.  What I am seeming to hear you say is that you object to the word because of the "idiot" in this video trying to tortuously redefine it.  Let me clue you in.  People like this guy most likely believe that if you don't worship the same god that they do, you must therefore worship and be in league with the devil and have certain sets of beliefs and rituals, such as eating babies, and since all babies are atheists....  So really, isn't it all about the babies?
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Merit Coba1 week ago (edited)







We do not mind the be called anything they like as long as we get the discount. A cat is a cat... no matter what.  Nya.

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Robert WLester1 week ago







Stiggy, a.k.a. bruce, is a guy i have avoided debating because he is a convertee and made it his crutch, but i don't mind you responding to him, he needs the attention to think out of the box.
the baby thing is lame, all babies argument is irrelevant, since the debate is between those with thought in mind beyond food or nappy changes ;)
I do agree largely, semantics divide us in some ways, however i would prefer greater discussion on the huge difference between fundy nutbags and lesser believers, or indeed liberal versions of Christianity, I only state this thought because painting the debate black and white is playing to the fundies, in a way.
i like how you state "agnostic atheist", many fundies can't understand this concept, so bruce will not accept it as valid until he grows up(maybe never).
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Jacob Williams
1 week ago (edited)


If you can convince people to drink poison, you can convince them of anything. Remember, 50% of people are below average intelligence.



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sogghartha
1 week ago


+Jacob Williams And they get to vote! :O
;)



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rohanwotan21 week ago







He should have been a psychiatrist?  Sheesh, I think he needs to SEE a psychiatrist.

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Robert WLester
1 week ago


actually he does, he got religion when he stopped being addict, i think.



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Jesse Sisolack
1 week ago


+BionicDance Yes, but you know we were all thinking it, and you could not have been thinking it any louder, haha. 



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jiberish0011 week ago







At 5:02
ARRRRG!!!
NO, BRUCE!
It is A-Theism. It is NOT Athe-ism!

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BionicDance
1 week ago


+tctheunbeliever Thanks. :)
Not that it did me any good...you should see the, uh, "conversation" he and I had on his original video.



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Gnomefro
1 week ago


+Robert WLester To be honest, I think it will take at least as much work to explain people what bright means as arguing about what atheist means. And the advantage of sticking with atheism is that people do understand what the gist of it is and we are free to terminate meaningless semantics games at any time by introducing well established terms like Naturalist to explain our positive views.



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steveb05031 week ago







I'm perfectly fine with "atheist" (being that I'm not ignorant as to its actual meaning) - but, wouldn't "non-theist" serve? I mean, I realize it's not (in the strictest terms) A word, but it does seem as though it has the potential to eliminate some of the confusion. I dunno - just a thought.

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Ravi Zacharias At BYU  
Posted: 31 October 2013 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Mohler and Zacharias may both be speaking to a BYU crowd in January of 2014, just a few months away.
 
Ravi Zacharias to speak to LDS again
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865589508/Mormon-evangelical-detente-Mouw-Zacharias-to-speak-to-LDS-again.html
 
 
 
Here's an older address to Mormons by Ravi Zacharias.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvrQ6yAjuOw
 


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Posted: 31 October 2013 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Isn't it nice that TSCC can do something nice, with absolutely no ulterior motive? 

   


Posted: 31 October 2013 08:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great. 

   


Posted: 01 November 2013 12:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
 
Oh no, is this now another gay thread?  Look, I have very little interest in protecting everything that is right about the gay movement and protecting everything that is wrong with it too. 
Do you wish to start another thread?


I'll try and set the title for it if you would like.

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/32996/#535502
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 01 November 2013 12:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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josephs myth:
quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
 
Oh no, is this now another gay thread?  Look, I have very little interest in protecting everything that is right about the gay movement and protecting everything that is wrong with it too. 
Do you wish to start another thread?


I'll try and set the title for it if you would like.

 
 
 I just went with the first thing that came up on a search of his name. It is less his position on one subject I feel very strongly about and more about how he seems like the same kind of backwards snake as the big 15. He doesn't seem to give straight answers, maintains outdated thoughtpatterns and talks in a way that would make him fit right in with Holland and the boys. I looked up multiple videos of him weaseling through questions and spewing old rhetoric. I just don't like him. The fact that he will cosy up to TSCC is just one more piece of the slimeball puzzle. I wonder how much they are paying him.


   


Posted: 01 November 2013 01:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
I just went with the first thing that came up on a search of his name. It is less his position on one subject I feel very strongly about, and more about how he seems like the same kind of backwards snake as the big 15. He doesn't seem to give straight answers, maintains outdated thoughtpatterns and talks in a way that would make him fit right in with Holland and the boys.
I looked up multiple videos of him weaseling through questions and spewing old rhetoric. I just don't like him. The fact that he will cosy up to TSCC is just one more piece of the slimeball puzzle. I wonder how much they are paying him.
 
Alright.  I hear you.

This probably is one guy you may have gotten wrong though.

They are definitely not paying him and Mormonism is hardly the biggest thing that Zacharias may have handled already. 

The guy is good, I don't know if you can maybe get used to that or is it possibly too much for you to try and evolve into?
 

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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 01 November 2013 08:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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I tried watching a number of videos of him and each one made me queasy. In one he had a father mention how his son asked him if non-Christians go to hell. He responded first by saying "I don't usually answer answers from that kind of person" which was a big red flag for me. Then he went into talking about how he hadn't been raised Christian with an emotional appeal. Then he talked about reformers... He never got around to giving a straight answer... It was just like watching Monson or Holland. Then I watched one where he was asked to explain why he felt that Christianity was the correct choice when there are conflicting claims of truth. He gave a emotional story about a woman who became a Bhuddist monk that he talked to. He asked her questions and then she cried so clearly Bhuddism is bunk. Then he mentioned Islam briefly and then he said there were four arbatriary questions a religion needs to answer in a cohesive manner. Once again he relied more on emotional manipulation than reason. I watched a few more before I threw my hands up in disgust. It is the same emotional manipulation B.S. and vague meaningless answers I left with TSCC. Don't get me wrong, I am still religious in my own way and have figures I respect in the religious field but they tend to give straight answers and use reason. 

   


Posted: 01 November 2013 09:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
I tried watching a number of videos of him and each one made me queasy. In one he had a father mention how his son asked him if non-Christians go to hell. He responded first by saying "I don't usually answer answers from that kind of person" which was a big red flag for me. Then he went into talking about how he hadn't been raised Christian with an emotional appeal.
Then he talked about reformers... He never got around to giving a straight answer... It was just like watching Monson or Holland. Then I watched one where he was asked to explain why he felt that Christianity was the correct choice when there are conflicting claims of truth. He gave a emotional story about a woman who became a Bhuddist monk that he talked to. He asked her questions and then she cried so clearly Bhuddism is bunk. Then he mentioned Islam briefly and then he said there were four arbatriary questions a religion needs to answer in a cohesive manner.
Once again he relied more on emotional manipulation than reason. I watched a few more before I threw my hands up in disgust. It is the same emotional manipulation B.S. and vague meaningless answers I left with TSCC. Don't get me wrong, I am still religious in my own way and have figures I respect in the religious field but they tend to give straight answers and use reason.
 
Jesus of the Bible, is not the Jesus I learned about in Mormonism.  Jesus Christ is soley milked for the name he holds by the backwards LDS church.  I understand that Zacharias has got that down perfectly.  He does admit though, that his welcoming to speak in the complicated situation at BYU to a completely saturated (brainwashed) crowd feels way over his head, beyond what he might believe anyone could possibly hope to accomplish.  I love transparency like that.  I am not familiar with a transparence like that in Mormonism.
 
This guy is deep and he is very very good.  I don't yet know the question you may need answered.  What exactly is it, maybe I can help?  Maybe I can't but we need to start somewhere, don't we?
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 01 December 2013 10:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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http://www.ksl.com/?sid=27638695
 
Sacred Gifts, is the named BYU Museum of Art display depicting incredibly special paintings of Christ, for the first time ever.
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Live link available in maybe about an hour.
 
http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zacharias-at-byu-and-the-mormon-tabernacle/
 
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
 
 Makes sense to me.  Evangelican Christians and Mormons talking about shared ground.
 
 Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism suck with equal fervor in my opinion.   Ravi is coming to BYU to remind Mormons that they aren't the only bigots out there. Bigots got stick together ya know?
 
Edit to add: Ravi seems like a creep to me and it's not just that his opinions on homosexuality, although that is enough to send me packing.  Part of what bugs me about Ravi is that he cozies up to Evangelicals and what you mentioned in orange. Women staying in t he kitchen isn't Ravi's invention but it is supported by Evangelical dogma. Your mileage may vary. 
 
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Hiker Daddy:
quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
 
 Makes sense to me.  Evangelican Christians and Mormons talking about shared ground.
 
 Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism suck with equal fervor in my opinion.   Ravi is coming to BYU to remind Mormons that they aren't the only bigots out there. Bigots got stick together ya know?
 
Edit to add: Ravi seems like a creep to me and it's not just that his opinions on homosexuality, although that is enough to send me packing.  Part of what bugs me about Ravi is that he cozies up to Evangelicals and what you mentioned in orange. Women staying in t he kitchen isn't Ravi's invention but it is supported by Evangelical dogma. Your mileage may vary. 
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.
 
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Ravi appears to be at the top of his game, fabulous delivery.  You do know he knows, right?
 
More tomorrow.
 
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
clipped stuff
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.
 
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
 
 
 .... What do you think my way is?  Correct me if I am wrong but Ravi is a staunch defender of the traditional evangelicalism.  That's from Wikipedia and his own web page. Do you know something about Ravi that isn't on his webpage like maybe he really isn't an evangelical preacher with a strong following among evangelicals?
 
 I have spent much time around traditional evangelicals and they seem as culty as Mormons to me.  I thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that I wasn't born evangelical or Islamic. Being born Mormon was bad enough. Ravi may have a preferable tone than most of the evangelical preachers but he defends them pretty well. 
 
.... I keep from not being a loud bigot by not being loud and not being a bigot.   Ravi creeps me out. Your mileage may vary.  I don't dislike him personally but I think he is intellectually out in left field along with a large crowd of people that shun evolution and think homosexuality is wrong.   I didn't listen a long time but you don't have to spend much time to note he doesn't differ from other evangelical preachers except maybe in tone.
 
Why should anybody trust Ravi. He thinks evolution is a crock because he claims it violates the laws of physics. He has some big balls considering no credible scientist agrees with him.  Maybe all my science professors were all bigots too. If so, I am in good company.  Yes, I could spend a bunch of time investigating why Ravi can defend evangelicalism with a straight face and why he thinks evolution is bunk and why he says homosexuality is wrong but frankly that is enough for me to not be a Ravi fan.  My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.  
 
.... No I don't feel a fool and I don't think you did a good job making me look one.  It is starting to sound like you are a missionary for Ravi Zacharias.  Is that true? 
 
....  I am not trying to take this conversation anywhere except that last question in pink.  
 
Are you a missionary for Ravi?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 03:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
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Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy:

My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.
 
 How do you define the term cult? Just curious, since you're labeling my faith heritage. Not that I am offended (since I might actually agree with you, depending on where you're going with this view), just interested in your perspective. Probably warrants a new thread or PM conversation, though, so as to not hijack this thread.


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.

What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
clipped stuff

 
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
 Signature
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.

What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.    
clipped stuff

 
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
No thanks Joseph.  If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself.  I know how to start threads and you know that.  Any new thread you start and title is not my thread.
 
I have not highjacked this thread.  From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.  
 
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias? 
 
 
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.

What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.    
clipped stuff

 
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
No thanks Joseph.  If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself.  I know how to start threads and you know that.  Any new thread you start and title is not my thread.
 
I have not highjacked this thread.  From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.  
 
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias? 
 
 
And you never answered mine.
 
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Penguin:
Hiker Daddy:

My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.
 
 How do you define the term cult? Just curious, since you're labeling my faith heritage. Not that I am offended (since I might actually agree with you, depending on where you're going with this view), just interested in your perspective. Probably warrants a new thread or PM conversation, though, so as to not hijack this thread.
 Penguin,  read this thread  going on right now to see my definition of cult.  
 
My opinions on cult were formed from reading Steven Hassan's book "Combatting Mind Control" and on a speech Hassan gave at the exmo Conference in 2008. Check that stuff out and forn your own opinion.  I am curious to what you think as you were part of th eevangelical movement. The podcasts are still on the Exmormon Foundation Webpage I think.  
 
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 06:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Evangelical writer Ravi Zacharias lauds bridge building
http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/sltrib/pages/printerfriendly.csp?id=57411664 
 
I wonder what he might be saying to the students tonight on this topic.
 
Ravi Zacharias will speak Saturday at 6:30 p.m. in the Mormon Tabernacle in downtown Salt Lake City. His topic will be “Lessons From History: Building a Nation Under God.” The event is free, but all tickets have been distributed.
 
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 08:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:

 
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
 
 
I have not highjacked this thread.  From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.  
 
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias? 
 
 
And you never answered mine.
 
 Your question was "Do you want to start your own thread, I can title it for you if you like? 
 
My answere was, " No thanks Joseph.  If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself.  I know how to start threads and you know that.."  I am not trying to be difficult here but you are not answering quesions, you accuse me of not answering questions even though I have, and you are calling me a bigot. 
 
I answered your question in bold though it wasn't in bold the first time I answered it.
 
You don't need to answer my question because you already answered it by dodging the question with such fervor. You are a missionary for Zacharias or at least for his slant of Evangelical Chrisianity.   If you were not, you would have said so.
 
Many folks here are tired of listening to missionaries. I know I am.
 
ETA. If you have further questions JM, I won't be back until Tuesday.  Maybe longer. Enjoy the weekend.
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
 
 Yes, you did.  Thanks.
 
If I could make a small suggestion:  if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important.  Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in. 
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 18 January 2014 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
 
Yes, you did.  Thanks.
 
If I could make a small suggestion:  if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important.  Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in. 
 
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves.  Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry.  I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
 
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about.  Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
 
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 18 January 2014 10:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Today you might wish to use the hashtag #RaviUtah to maybe tweet about Ravi's event in Utah.
 
Live feed starts  6:30 PM mountain time (MT)
 
http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zacharias-at-byu-and-the-mormon-tabernacle/
 
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 18 January 2014 11:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
 
Yes, you did.  Thanks.
 
If I could make a small suggestion:  if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important.  Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in. 
 
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves.  Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry.  I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
 
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about.  Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
 
 
 That's my point.  Your OP doesn't tell us whether you are posting because you like the guy or because you are critical of him.  It's just links.  Responses can't be off track if there's no track in the OP.
 
Just a suggestion.  Take it or leave it. 
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 19 January 2014 03:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
Yes, you did.  Thanks.
 
If I could make a small suggestion:  if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important.  Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in. 
 
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves.  Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry.  I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
 
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about.  Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
 
That's my point.  Your OP doesn't tell us whether you are posting because you like the guy or because you are critical of him.  It's just links.  Responses can't be off track if there's no track in the OP.
 
Just a suggestion.  Take it or leave it. 
 
OMG, Are you kidding me?
 
I'll leave the suggestion alone, I have a hard time thinking that tiny, I always have.
 
And probably, I'll try and direct the thread to simply stay as a link to Ravi Zacharias and his talk at BYU, to want it to be anything more than that might not succeed to aim at maybe remaining a top Google search using 'Ravi BYU' 'Ravi LDS' 'Ravi Mormon', as already sought.
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


            
 
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Ravi Zacharias At BYU  
Posted: 31 October 2013 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Mohler and Zacharias may both be speaking to a BYU crowd in January of 2014, just a few months away.
 
Ravi Zacharias to speak to LDS again
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865589508/Mormon-evangelical-detente-Mouw-Zacharias-to-speak-to-LDS-again.html
 
 
 
Here's an older address to Mormons by Ravi Zacharias.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvrQ6yAjuOw
 


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Posted: 31 October 2013 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Isn't it nice that TSCC can do something nice, with absolutely no ulterior motive? 

   


Posted: 31 October 2013 08:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great. 

   


Posted: 01 November 2013 12:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
 
Oh no, is this now another gay thread?  Look, I have very little interest in protecting everything that is right about the gay movement and protecting everything that is wrong with it too. 
Do you wish to start another thread?


I'll try and set the title for it if you would like.

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/32996/#535502
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 01 November 2013 12:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
 
Oh no, is this now another gay thread?  Look, I have very little interest in protecting everything that is right about the gay movement and protecting everything that is wrong with it too. 
Do you wish to start another thread?


I'll try and set the title for it if you would like.

 
 
 I just went with the first thing that came up on a search of his name. It is less his position on one subject I feel very strongly about and more about how he seems like the same kind of backwards snake as the big 15. He doesn't seem to give straight answers, maintains outdated thoughtpatterns and talks in a way that would make him fit right in with Holland and the boys. I looked up multiple videos of him weaseling through questions and spewing old rhetoric. I just don't like him. The fact that he will cosy up to TSCC is just one more piece of the slimeball puzzle. I wonder how much they are paying him.


   


Posted: 01 November 2013 01:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
I just went with the first thing that came up on a search of his name. It is less his position on one subject I feel very strongly about, and more about how he seems like the same kind of backwards snake as the big 15. He doesn't seem to give straight answers, maintains outdated thoughtpatterns and talks in a way that would make him fit right in with Holland and the boys.
I looked up multiple videos of him weaseling through questions and spewing old rhetoric. I just don't like him. The fact that he will cosy up to TSCC is just one more piece of the slimeball puzzle. I wonder how much they are paying him.
 
Alright.  I hear you.

This probably is one guy you may have gotten wrong though.

They are definitely not paying him and Mormonism is hardly the biggest thing that Zacharias may have handled already. 

The guy is good, I don't know if you can maybe get used to that or is it possibly too much for you to try and evolve into?
 

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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 01 November 2013 08:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I tried watching a number of videos of him and each one made me queasy. In one he had a father mention how his son asked him if non-Christians go to hell. He responded first by saying "I don't usually answer answers from that kind of person" which was a big red flag for me. Then he went into talking about how he hadn't been raised Christian with an emotional appeal. Then he talked about reformers... He never got around to giving a straight answer... It was just like watching Monson or Holland. Then I watched one where he was asked to explain why he felt that Christianity was the correct choice when there are conflicting claims of truth. He gave a emotional story about a woman who became a Bhuddist monk that he talked to. He asked her questions and then she cried so clearly Bhuddism is bunk. Then he mentioned Islam briefly and then he said there were four arbatriary questions a religion needs to answer in a cohesive manner. Once again he relied more on emotional manipulation than reason. I watched a few more before I threw my hands up in disgust. It is the same emotional manipulation B.S. and vague meaningless answers I left with TSCC. Don't get me wrong, I am still religious in my own way and have figures I respect in the religious field but they tend to give straight answers and use reason. 

   


Posted: 01 November 2013 09:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
I tried watching a number of videos of him and each one made me queasy. In one he had a father mention how his son asked him if non-Christians go to hell. He responded first by saying "I don't usually answer answers from that kind of person" which was a big red flag for me. Then he went into talking about how he hadn't been raised Christian with an emotional appeal.
Then he talked about reformers... He never got around to giving a straight answer... It was just like watching Monson or Holland. Then I watched one where he was asked to explain why he felt that Christianity was the correct choice when there are conflicting claims of truth. He gave a emotional story about a woman who became a Bhuddist monk that he talked to. He asked her questions and then she cried so clearly Bhuddism is bunk. Then he mentioned Islam briefly and then he said there were four arbatriary questions a religion needs to answer in a cohesive manner.
Once again he relied more on emotional manipulation than reason. I watched a few more before I threw my hands up in disgust. It is the same emotional manipulation B.S. and vague meaningless answers I left with TSCC. Don't get me wrong, I am still religious in my own way and have figures I respect in the religious field but they tend to give straight answers and use reason.
 
Jesus of the Bible, is not the Jesus I learned about in Mormonism.  Jesus Christ is soley milked for the name he holds by the backwards LDS church.  I understand that Zacharias has got that down perfectly.  He does admit though, that his welcoming to speak in the complicated situation at BYU to a completely saturated (brainwashed) crowd feels way over his head, beyond what he might believe anyone could possibly hope to accomplish.  I love transparency like that.  I am not familiar with a transparence like that in Mormonism.
 
This guy is deep and he is very very good.  I don't yet know the question you may need answered.  What exactly is it, maybe I can help?  Maybe I can't but we need to start somewhere, don't we?
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 01 December 2013 10:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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http://www.ksl.com/?sid=27638695
 
Sacred Gifts, is the named BYU Museum of Art display depicting incredibly special paintings of Christ, for the first time ever.
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Live link available in maybe about an hour.
 
http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zacharias-at-byu-and-the-mormon-tabernacle/
 
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
 
 Makes sense to me.  Evangelican Christians and Mormons talking about shared ground.
 
 Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism suck with equal fervor in my opinion.   Ravi is coming to BYU to remind Mormons that they aren't the only bigots out there. Bigots got stick together ya know?
 
Edit to add: Ravi seems like a creep to me and it's not just that his opinions on homosexuality, although that is enough to send me packing.  Part of what bugs me about Ravi is that he cozies up to Evangelicals and what you mentioned in orange. Women staying in t he kitchen isn't Ravi's invention but it is supported by Evangelical dogma. Your mileage may vary. 
 
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Hiker Daddy:
quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
 
 Makes sense to me.  Evangelican Christians and Mormons talking about shared ground.
 
 Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism suck with equal fervor in my opinion.   Ravi is coming to BYU to remind Mormons that they aren't the only bigots out there. Bigots got stick together ya know?
 
Edit to add: Ravi seems like a creep to me and it's not just that his opinions on homosexuality, although that is enough to send me packing.  Part of what bugs me about Ravi is that he cozies up to Evangelicals and what you mentioned in orange. Women staying in t he kitchen isn't Ravi's invention but it is supported by Evangelical dogma. Your mileage may vary. 
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.
 
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
 
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Ravi appears to be at the top of his game, fabulous delivery.  You do know he knows, right?
 
More tomorrow.
 
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
clipped stuff
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.
 
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
 
 
 .... What do you think my way is?  Correct me if I am wrong but Ravi is a staunch defender of the traditional evangelicalism.  That's from Wikipedia and his own web page. Do you know something about Ravi that isn't on his webpage like maybe he really isn't an evangelical preacher with a strong following among evangelicals?
 
 I have spent much time around traditional evangelicals and they seem as culty as Mormons to me.  I thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that I wasn't born evangelical or Islamic. Being born Mormon was bad enough. Ravi may have a preferable tone than most of the evangelical preachers but he defends them pretty well. 
 
.... I keep from not being a loud bigot by not being loud and not being a bigot.   Ravi creeps me out. Your mileage may vary.  I don't dislike him personally but I think he is intellectually out in left field along with a large crowd of people that shun evolution and think homosexuality is wrong.   I didn't listen a long time but you don't have to spend much time to note he doesn't differ from other evangelical preachers except maybe in tone.
 
Why should anybody trust Ravi. He thinks evolution is a crock because he claims it violates the laws of physics. He has some big balls considering no credible scientist agrees with him.  Maybe all my science professors were all bigots too. If so, I am in good company.  Yes, I could spend a bunch of time investigating why Ravi can defend evangelicalism with a straight face and why he thinks evolution is bunk and why he says homosexuality is wrong but frankly that is enough for me to not be a Ravi fan.  My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.  
 
.... No I don't feel a fool and I don't think you did a good job making me look one.  It is starting to sound like you are a missionary for Ravi Zacharias.  Is that true? 
 
....  I am not trying to take this conversation anywhere except that last question in pink.  
 
Are you a missionary for Ravi?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 03:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
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Posted: 17 January 2014 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy:

My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.
 
 How do you define the term cult? Just curious, since you're labeling my faith heritage. Not that I am offended (since I might actually agree with you, depending on where you're going with this view), just interested in your perspective. Probably warrants a new thread or PM conversation, though, so as to not hijack this thread.


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.

What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
clipped stuff

 
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
 Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 January 2014 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.

What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.    
clipped stuff

 
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
No thanks Joseph.  If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself.  I know how to start threads and you know that.  Any new thread you start and title is not my thread.
 
I have not highjacked this thread.  From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.  
 
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias? 
 
 
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
 
 
 
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way?  No problem.

What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot?  Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast?  Do you not know what you are attempting to say here?  Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background?  Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool?  I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.    
clipped stuff

 
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
No thanks Joseph.  If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself.  I know how to start threads and you know that.  Any new thread you start and title is not my thread.
 
I have not highjacked this thread.  From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.  
 
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias? 
 
 
And you never answered mine.
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Penguin:
Hiker Daddy:

My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.
 
 How do you define the term cult? Just curious, since you're labeling my faith heritage. Not that I am offended (since I might actually agree with you, depending on where you're going with this view), just interested in your perspective. Probably warrants a new thread or PM conversation, though, so as to not hijack this thread.
 Penguin,  read this thread  going on right now to see my definition of cult.  
 
My opinions on cult were formed from reading Steven Hassan's book "Combatting Mind Control" and on a speech Hassan gave at the exmo Conference in 2008. Check that stuff out and forn your own opinion.  I am curious to what you think as you were part of th eevangelical movement. The podcasts are still on the Exmormon Foundation Webpage I think.  
 
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 06:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Evangelical writer Ravi Zacharias lauds bridge building
http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/sltrib/pages/printerfriendly.csp?id=57411664 
 
I wonder what he might be saying to the students tonight on this topic.
 
Ravi Zacharias will speak Saturday at 6:30 p.m. in the Mormon Tabernacle in downtown Salt Lake City. His topic will be “Lessons From History: Building a Nation Under God.” The event is free, but all tickets have been distributed.
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 17 January 2014 08:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:

 
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
 
 
I have not highjacked this thread.  From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.  
 
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias? 
 
 
And you never answered mine.
 
 Your question was "Do you want to start your own thread, I can title it for you if you like? 
 
My answere was, " No thanks Joseph.  If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself.  I know how to start threads and you know that.."  I am not trying to be difficult here but you are not answering quesions, you accuse me of not answering questions even though I have, and you are calling me a bigot. 
 
I answered your question in bold though it wasn't in bold the first time I answered it.
 
You don't need to answer my question because you already answered it by dodging the question with such fervor. You are a missionary for Zacharias or at least for his slant of Evangelical Chrisianity.   If you were not, you would have said so.
 
Many folks here are tired of listening to missionaries. I know I am.
 
ETA. If you have further questions JM, I won't be back until Tuesday.  Maybe longer. Enjoy the weekend.
 
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Posted: 17 January 2014 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
 
 Yes, you did.  Thanks.
 
If I could make a small suggestion:  if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important.  Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in. 
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Posted: 18 January 2014 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
 
Yes, you did.  Thanks.
 
If I could make a small suggestion:  if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important.  Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in. 
 
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves.  Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry.  I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
 
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about.  Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
 
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 18 January 2014 10:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Today you might wish to use the hashtag #RaviUtah to maybe tweet about Ravi's event in Utah.
 
Live feed starts  6:30 PM mountain time (MT)
 
http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zacharias-at-byu-and-the-mormon-tabernacle/
 
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 18 January 2014 11:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
 
Yes, you did.  Thanks.
 
If I could make a small suggestion:  if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important.  Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in. 
 
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves.  Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry.  I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
 
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about.  Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
 
 
 That's my point.  Your OP doesn't tell us whether you are posting because you like the guy or because you are critical of him.  It's just links.  Responses can't be off track if there's no track in the OP.
 
Just a suggestion.  Take it or leave it. 
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Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 19 January 2014 03:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
 
Here's his wiki entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
 
You're a long timer here.  Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism.  Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
 
So you really like the guy.  I know nothing about him.  What is it about him that you like?  It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian.  What is it?
 
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
 
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk.  Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
 
Did I answer your question?
 
Yes, you did.  Thanks.
 
If I could make a small suggestion:  if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important.  Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in. 
 
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves.  Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry.  I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
 
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about.  Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
 
That's my point.  Your OP doesn't tell us whether you are posting because you like the guy or because you are critical of him.  It's just links.  Responses can't be off track if there's no track in the OP.
 
Just a suggestion.  Take it or leave it. 
 
OMG, Are you kidding me?
 
I'll leave the suggestion alone, I have a hard time thinking that tiny, I always have.
 
And probably, I'll try and direct the thread to simply stay as a link to Ravi Zacharias and his talk at BYU, to want it to be anything more than that might not succeed to aim at maybe remaining a top Google search using 'Ravi BYU' 'Ravi LDS' 'Ravi Mormon', as already sought.
 
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


            
 
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The Mystery of the Twilight Saga and Mormonism  
Posted: 18 November 2011 05:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I don't get it. How could someone eschew a reasonably good movie like The King's Speech and yet go to the ghastly Twilight franchise? How could someone congratulate herself on her purity and moral superiority for passing on Shakespeare in Love and then indulge in Breaking Dawn? I'm truly mystified.
 
I have refused to read the books or see any of the movies, but just the (obnoxious) trailer has convinced me that Andrew O'Hehir at Salon has it about right when he calls it "...gory, porny...all the sexual perversity of Twilight comes bubbling through the cracks."
 
He queries "Bella Swan: Demon mama or Christ figure?"Here's a thought: Because of her Mormon background, writer Stephanie Meyer is somewhat confused and might be forgiven for having gotten the two somehow mooshed together with a little sexual perversity thrown in for good measure.
 
Hope I don't offend any fans, but but me? Ick.
 
If for no other reason, I could never participate in Mormonism because the idea of anyone telling me what to read and not read, what to see and not see makes me laugh out loud. I would take it as seriously as someone telling me not to breathe. To say nothing -- at least in this case -- of their lousy taste in books and movie. 
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Posted: 18 November 2011 05:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I keep wanting to post on my fb page something like "to all of you who are posting about how excited you are to see Breaking Dawn tonight, I have to ask. Did you NOT see either of the first two movies? How awful do they have to be before you will catch on??" But I haven't, because I don't want to be flamed to death by rabid PTA moms.
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Posted: 18 November 2011 05:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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You should read O'Hehir's whole post. There is plenty of good stuff.
 
"I have other logistical and/or theological questions that “Breaking Dawn Part 1″ cannot quite answer. I suppose it makes sense that vampires possess the power to block or distort caller ID, since in one scene Bella calls her pining dad — the young, single and handsome one played by Billy Burke, whose relationship with Stewart’s Bella has always had a Freudian undertow — from across town, pretending she’s in Brazil or Switzerland or something. But Bella and Edward are apparently married by some kind of priest or minister, and I can’t get my head around that one at all. Holy matrimony plus undead monstrosity — does not compute! Either they’re not telling the dude any version of the truth (and in that case are also lying to God), or the officiant’s got nothing to do with any Christian denomination I’ve ever heard of, and in either case the whole wedding, rendered in such sugary detail you can almost taste the cake icing, is a hypocritical sham. I could insert a Mormon gag here — but I’m no bigot! Not gonna go there!"
 
http://www.salon.com/2011/11/17/breaking_dawn_part_1_bella_swan_demon_mama_or_christ_figure/
 
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Posted: 18 November 2011 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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It's Stephanie Meyers answer to "eternal life"....vampire style. Bella gits to live forever...with her mate. It's the Celestial Kingdom, doncha know.
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Posted: 18 November 2011 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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everwonder_y
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Nothing in my Jello:
I keep wanting to post on my fb page something like "to all of you who are posting about how excited you are to see Breaking Dawn tonight, I have to ask. Did you NOT see either of the first two movies? How awful do they have to be before you will catch on??" But I haven't, because I don't want to be flamed to death by rabid PTA moms.
 
Oh dear, you nailed it right there! 
 
I just got back from seeing it tonight. *hangs head in shame*
 
I have two totally TBM sisters and we haven't got along at ALL this year so I went with their possy as some sort of peace offering. It was humiliating. I think I may have pissed them off because when it was over, I was like, "OMG, let's get the hell out of here. I don't want to be seen!" LMAO
 
Honestly, Kristen Stewart does a lot of Indie movies which I adore (Adventureland, The Runaways, Welcome to the Rileys, The Yellow Handkerchief), so I can overlook her participation in Twilight.
 
Anyway, I can totally see why Morg housewives eat up this drivel. Just going by my sisters, who have NEVER had a job, sent off to BYU to get MRS degrees, married (well $$) at 19, squirting out a bunch of kids they style obsessively, etc. In their minds they've conquered life. Of course, the central achievement is getting married to a "good provider" who "takes good care of them". Twilight validates all of this, along with a little dose of mommy martyrdom (since Bella risks her life to have Edwards baby *gag*). They need to re-live the teenage romance epitomized in Twilight to find value in the mundane powerlessness of their lives now; as the rest of the world recognizes them for the entitled, privileged twats they are.
 
Sorry, I'm more cynical than normal, but wouldn't you be after spending the evening at a Twilight premiere? After sitting through dinner with a bunch of high maintenance women who treated the waitstaff like shit; complaining that one dinner came out later than the others, so demanded it comp'ed to boot?
 
/end rant
 
I think I need a drink. LOL 


   


Posted: 18 November 2011 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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AngelicFerret
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Oh Twilight. One woman's epic choice between necrophilia and bestiality. Eventually she's going to figure out that Edward can't get an erection with no blood flowing in his veins. 
 
With a premise like that I find it baffling that TBMs don't see anything wrong with this. 
 
Oh well. Six more months until the next Game of Thrones season is out.  
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Posted: 18 November 2011 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Yes, i'm a fan (head hung in shame).  Its a glutenous endulgence for me.  There is really only one reason to watch.....Taylor Lautner.  I do believe he is over 18 so at least i'm not guilty of being a pedofile, but certainly of being entertained by cheezy tweenage soft core porn!!!  
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Posted: 18 November 2011 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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AngelicFerret:
Oh Twilight. One woman's epic choice between necrophilia and bestiality. Eventually she's going to figure out that Edward can't get an erection with no blood flowing in his veins. 
 
With a premise like that I find it baffling that TBMs don't see anything wrong with this. 
 
Oh well. Six more months until the next Game of Thrones season is out.  

 That is so damn funny.  I can say I've never thought of it in such a way.  When your choice is between a forever living non human (remind anyone of the three Nephites?) and a big furry doggie what woman in her right mind would ever choose a normal man.

Best part about this is that my teenage daughter is finally old enough to go with her friends rather than her dad.  Yeah!
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Posted: 18 November 2011 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
ferretmom
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Stephen King said it best when he said "Harry Potter is about overcoming adversity. Twilight is about the importance of having a boyfriend." 

   


Posted: 18 November 2011 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Forget the fictional Twilight Saga when more dangerous and deadly cougars, wives with multiple husbands and grannies are out there again, maybe somewhere on the prowl.
 
http://investigation.discovery.com/videos/deadly-women-cougar-seduces-tortures-and-kills-men.html
 
 
 
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Posted: 18 November 2011 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Ya know, my wife accepted everything I told her when I said I was done with mormonism.  She has given me much in the way of compromise on so many things over the years we've been married.  So, I return the favor, in part, by indulging in the Twilight movies with her.  (I try to to be too drunk/loud at the theater. :) )
 
That said, I think Stephanie Meyer has done so well with the YW crowd because she basically took the mormon ideal for a worthy husband, slapped on some body glitter and removed his need for sleep.  Presto! Insta-miamaid bait.  I'm sure that future versions of the YW manuals will borrow heavily from descriptions of Edward Cullen as the mythological ideal for mormon male-ness.  This will only further disappoint these poor girls, as Jesus himself wouldn't live up to the Edward test.
 
As far as movies that I watch because my spouse enjoys them, Twilight is sufferable.  At least, and to my relative delight, "...gory, porny...all the sexual perversity of Twilight comes bubbling through the cracks."    
 
I wouldn't ever let my daughter read them without some sort of groundwork discussion on unattainable standards.  
 
We have our tickets for tomorrow night. 
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Posted: 18 November 2011 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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So the best analysis of this whole phenomenon I have read is by a Westminster College professor. KSL even featured it, but they couldn't link it because obviously, you don't link KSL to Bitch Magazine. She makes so many good points about the abstinence issue and the "rape" scene in the movie....I just love bright thinkers!

http://bitchmagazine.org/article/bite-me-or-dont


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Posted: 18 November 2011 08:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Either Postmo or Firefox won't let me cut and paste but check out a hilarious play by play of the most recent Twilight movie on a site called Jezebel. The title of the article is "Here's Your Minute-By-Minute Play-By-Play of Twilight: Breaking Dawn.


   


Posted: 18 November 2011 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVy8Dr_SxWg


   


Posted: 18 November 2011 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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I had no idea that Stephanie Meyer was Mormon (or ex-mormon I didn't get a clear understanding from reading the posts here) but that certainly explains a lot.  
 
I want to be a sci fi/fantasy writer myself and have studied how to put a plot together, how to contruct characters, etc.  I tried to read the first Twilight book and have read The Host by Stephanie Meyer.  The Host was written before the first twilight book and was actually decent.  The Twilight books are horrible.  
 
One of the things that pisses me off about the series, and SM's writing in general, is her weak female characters.  Both Bella and the main character for The Host are ridiculously passive and can't seem to do anything intelligent on their own.  The other thing I hate is that SM's diologue is so stiff you could use it to fence.  
 
Despite my loathing for the books I have seen all the movies and plan on seeing Breaking Dawn.  Why? The peanut gallery and eye candy.  The movies resolve most of the issues with the books and are fairly ok as films.  Also, they're really pretty.  I saw New Moon on my birthday and shared the theater with a bunch of 12 year old girls and their mothers.  I was sitting in my seat with my brother laughing so hard I was crying due to all their reactions, like a collective "oooooo!" when the werewolf guy took off his shirt.  
 
Also, the Twilight series has neutered the vampire legend.  Vampires are scary, evil, and they DO NOT SPARKLE.   Buffy would stake Edward in under 30 seconds.
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Posted: 18 November 2011 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace:
So the best analysis of this whole phenomenon I have read is by a Westminster College professor. KSL even featured it, but they couldn't link it because obviously, you don't link KSL to Bitch Magazine. She makes so many good points about the abstinence issue and the "rape" scene in the movie....I just love bright thinkers!
 
http://bitchmagazine.org/article/bite-me-or-dont 
 
 
 
 An excellent article and pins down exactly what was bothering me about all this.
 
I just read a note, posted by a friend of a friend on FB, about how the movie is titillating and we shouldn't let our adolescents and teenagers watch it for fear that it will cause lust and that teen girls will masturbate, or worse, go farther with boys than they should.  (She mentions that most boys will masturbate and then says, "Does everyone know that young women can just as easily masturbate?"  You've got to be kidding me.)
 
That teens cannot handle the sexual tension in their own bodies in appropriate ways.
 
No mention of educating teens in sexuality or dealing with sexual feelings but plenty on how a girl should honor her values and avoid the subject matter entirely.  You can't eat the candy bar if you never take off the wrapper.
 
Apparently it IS adult subject matter (dunno, won't read the books) but avoiding this movie in particular doesn't avoid what's come previous.  The ecstacy of just coming to the line and then covering your eyes to any practical knowledge beyond that line because doing so is a sin.
 
Becky
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Posted: 18 November 2011 11:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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PhoenixGate:
 
Also, the Twilight series has neutered the vampire legend.  Vampires are scary, evil, and they DO NOT SPARKLE.   Buffy would stake Edward in under 30 seconds.
 

 
Buffy Rocks!
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Posted: 18 November 2011 11:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Absent Minded Housewife:
 
<snip> 
 
I just read a note, posted by a friend of a friend on FB, about how the movie is titillating and we shouldn't let our adolescents and teenagers watch it for fear that it will cause lust and that teen girls will masturbate, or worse, go farther with boys than they should.  (She mentions that most boys will masturbate and then says, "Does everyone know that young women can just as easily masturbate?"  You've got to be kidding me.)
 
That teens cannot handle the sexual tension in their own bodies in appropriate ways.
 
No mention of educating teens in sexuality or dealing with sexual feelings but plenty on how a girl should honor her values and avoid the subject matter entirely.  You can't eat the candy bar if you never take off the wrapper.
 
Apparently it IS adult subject matter (dunno, won't read the books) but avoiding this movie in particular doesn't avoid what's come previous.  The ecstacy of just coming to the line and then covering your eyes to any practical knowledge beyond that line because doing so is a sin.
 
Becky
 
They actually posted that on FB?
 
Maybe that's what Uncle Dieter meant by flooding the internet with the good news. I'll tell you, if there's one thing that led me to "tamper with my factory" as a teen, it was the constant admonitions from the church NOT to do just that!
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Posted: 19 November 2011 12:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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I don't tknow that I would categorize myself as a fan - but I have a teenager that is obsessed with it and this keeps me in the loop (and seeing the midnight showing last night of Breaking Dawn.)
 
I liked the books just fine before they got all overly popular.  Of course now (with teenager) I have been oversaturated to the point of it becoming funny.
 
But anyway.  I have seen worse movies.  It's a movie.  It's a book.  It's entertainment.  I might not have that good of taste, though.  I do try to watch the Oscar nominated films each year and some of them leave me saying WTF?!  I find some completely depressing (albeit well-acted of course.) 
 
Some of the books I read have won awards and are held in high regard and I find some very droll and depressing (albeit well-written of course.)
 
The TBM's I know are coming out on FB saying to not take children to Breaking Dawn, it is not appropriate.  Stephanie Meyer was the producer and she did not cut anything from bringing the book to film.  We see two young people having sex (even some side boobage).  We have a discussion about abortion.  We have a discussion about periods and pregnancy.  We see a young woman who is the sexual aggressor in her marriage.  We see a young woman in lingerie.  We see violence.  Even the wedding dress is very immodest by Mormon standards.
 
I mean, come on.  She's got to be a JackMo if anything.  No, she's not the best writer in the the world.   It's a book, people. 
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Posted: 19 November 2011 01:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet:
I don't tknow that I would categorize myself as a fan - but I have a teenager that is obsessed with it and this keeps me in the loop (and seeing the midnight showing last night of Breaking Dawn.)
 
I liked the books just fine before they got all overly popular.  Of course now (with teenager) I have been oversaturated to the point of it becoming funny.
 
But anyway.  I have seen worse movies.  It's a movie.  It's a book.  It's entertainment.  I might not have that good of taste, though.  I do try to watch the Oscar nominated films each year and some of them leave me saying WTF?!  I find some completely depressing (albeit well-acted of course.) 
 
Some of the books I read have won awards and are held in high regard and I find some very droll and depressing (albeit well-written of course.)
 
The TBM's I know are coming out on FB saying to not take children to Breaking Dawn, it is not appropriate.  Stephanie Meyer was the producer and she did not cut anything from bringing the book to film.  We see two young people having sex (even some side boobage).  We have a discussion about abortion.  We have a discussion about periods and pregnancy.  We see a young woman who is the sexual aggressor in her marriage.  We see a young woman in lingerie.  We see violence.  Even the wedding dress is very immodest by Mormon standards.
 
I mean, come on.  She's got to be a JackMo if anything.  No, she's not the best writer in the the world.   It's a book, people. 
 
 Point well takenMishMagnet--glad you got to me before I went off about it with my teenage daughter in the room! Time to ratchet down the "serious meter"
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Posted: 19 November 2011 05:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet:
I don't tknow that I would categorize myself as a fan - but I have a teenager that is obsessed with it and this keeps me in the loop (and seeing the midnight showing last night of Breaking Dawn.)
 
I liked the books just fine before they got all overly popular.  Of course now (with teenager) I have been oversaturated to the point of it becoming funny.
 
But anyway.  I have seen worse movies.  It's a movie.  It's a book.  It's entertainment.  I might not have that good of taste, though.  I do try to watch the Oscar nominated films each year and some of them leave me saying WTF?!  I find some completely depressing (albeit well-acted of course.) 
 
Some of the books I read have won awards and are held in high regard and I find some very droll and depressing (albeit well-written of course.)
 
The TBM's I know are coming out on FB saying to not take children to Breaking Dawn, it is not appropriate.  Stephanie Meyer was the producer and she did not cut anything from bringing the book to film.  We see two young people having sex (even some side boobage).  We have a discussion about abortion.  We have a discussion about periods and pregnancy.  We see a young woman who is the sexual aggressor in her marriage.  We see a young woman in lingerie.  We see violence.  Even the wedding dress is very immodest by Mormon standards.
 
I mean, come on.  She's got to be a JackMo if anything.  No, she's not the best writer in the the world.   It's a book, people. 
I didn't want to make a highbrow vs. middle brow vs. low brow argument. I don't mind if people find the fun of the movies or the books, even though it eludes me. I am not arguing for not going or not liking this stuff.
 
I know what you mean. There are many movies -- and books, for that matter -- which are highly regarded -- and leave me cold. The Piano and Shine come to mind, and I am simply uninterested in so much of contemporary writing, although I'm sure a great deal of it good -- I'm jsut not interested -- no good excuse.
 
Not only that, I like to decompress in some offbeat ways myself and don't begrudge others what works for them. I like to watch episodes of The Big Bang Theory -- over and over again. I don't think that is superior. Or inferior for that matter. It is simply what I do to unwind. If people enjoy the Twilight series -- I don't look down on them for that. I personally find vampires repulsive rather than sexy. I could not read Dracula -- even when it was assigned for my Victorian literature class. I tried the famous 1992 movie and tanked at the same place -- where some minor character in prison eats bugs. I have an incredibly quick gag reflex. 
 
My point is that Mormons let others think for them on these matters, and that is incomprehensible to me. And furthermore, adding to the idiocy, the Mormons in charge of doing the thinking instruct the zombie crew to follow -- not the prophet -- but the ratings of Hollywood, which everyone else on the planet gets are completely rigged hokum. Violence gets a pass. Human intimacy not so much. Immature, even infantile humor is fine. A serious look at the human condition -- thumbs down. Whether a movie is rated R or PG 13 is the least meaningful test of its value I can imagine -- and that cuts both ways. Just because a movie is rated R obviously does not mean it is fit for adult consumption. Often just the opposite. And just because a movie is released as PG 13 doesn't mean it isn't porny, a word I love because porn + corny = porny. Porny is a great word for the Twilight series. Yet many a Mormon will see anything rated PG 13, no matter how childish, violent, porny, gory, and anti all their (supposedly cherished) values it may be, while refusing to see anything R no matter how uplifting, inspiring, thoughtful, joyous, and affirming it may be. The Brethren want them to see PG 13. The Brethren don't want them to see R. It baffles me they don't respond with the obvious and tell Monson "Wow. You have the lousiest taste in movies I've ever encountered! Are you kidding me?"
 
You noted that Breaking Dawn is full of subversive subtexts. Yes. Exactly my point. And by the way, a large part of its draw. But I would not conclude that Stephenie Meyer has to be at least jack Mormon. I might conclude that in Mormonism the daming of honest questioning and normal human sexuality has forced some rivers into some twisted, weird courses.
 
Meyer is getting away with murder -- but I don't know if that is her intention. Her appeal is to the hysterical people who scream marriage can only be between one vampire and one woman. No wait. That is not it. Who see pregnancies as Rosemary's Baby, giving birth to the devil. No no. That's not right either. Who see immortality as horrible -- like an eternal living death -- like being a vampire. No. Wait. I'm confused.
 
Why do you think people eat this with a spoon? Because it shows the dark side of their belief system -- then cops out and turns it all to candy coated saccharin. It is at the point you get that bitter chemical aftertaste, the audience is reassured their beliefs are not so crazy and dark after all. And of course one should obsess about two human women getting married and how perverted that is on the off days when you are not obsessing whether Bella should marry a vampire or a werewolf, which is, in the end, a pretty normal human issue. Is there a problem? 
 
And if you haven't seen it, see Shakespeare in Love. It is joyously sexy. Not at all highbrow. Not academic. Joyous. And sexy. And human.
 
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Posted: 19 November 2011 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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I recommend reading...
 
http://stoney321.livejournal.com/317176.html
 
OK, disclaimer. I read the books. I saw the movies.
 
It's "junk food", but sometimes I like junk food. 
 
The author that wrote the above spoof is HILARIOUS!!! You will laugh your a** off if you read the books, and I think you will if you haven't (well, at least if you are POMO).
 
Just MHO .
 


   


Posted: 19 November 2011 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace:
So the best analysis of this whole phenomenon I have read is by a Westminster College professor. KSL even featured it, but they couldn't link it because obviously, you don't link KSL to Bitch Magazine. She makes so many good points about the abstinence issue and the "rape" scene in the movie....I just love bright thinkers!
 
http://bitchmagazine.org/article/bite-me-or-dont#comment-13914
 
 
 
Ooh, thanks for the link. Very thought provoking commentary. This comment summarizes some of problematic themes quite well.
 
Not a "1950s housewife"?
Let's see, what were the values of the 1950s in regards to women?
 
1.) Take care of the men in your life. A man should never have to cook for himself, you know (Bella feels it's her OBLIGATION to constantly cook for her father, because her mother is absent).
 
2.) A woman need not have a profession, or any kind of career, after she's married; in fact, having a career after she's married is somewhat distasteful. (Bella never even considers going to college or doing anything with her life but boinking her husband for the rest of her days)
 
3.) A woman's virtue (virginity) is important (if you don't think vampirism is a metaphor for teenage hormones in that series, you're kidding yourself; notice how it's always up to Edward to "resist" deflowering her, with sex itself being treated as dangerous and risky).
 
4.) Abortion is wrong; a truly noble woman continues the pregnancy, even if it's at great risk to herself (this is exactly what Bella chooses to do in Breaking Dawn).
 
5.) A truly noble woman is self-sacrificing. Especially for her husband and child or children (yes, yes, and yes.)
 
Now, is it true that a true feminist would allow women to choose their own paths - i.e. if they really don't want to abort, or to go to college, don't force them? Of course. The whole point is to have freedom for women.
 
However, if you think there are NO problematic themes, absolutely nothing in the way Bella's character is portrayed that matches the "1950s housewife" ideal surprisingly well for something published in the early 2000s... you are kidding yourself.
 
Twilight is an extremely "socially conservative" series; it's kinky at points, yes, and it acknowledges teenage sexual urges; but it nonetheless endorses and romanticizes a view of women where they are only truly noble if they sacrifice themselves for their husbands and children, and it forces the characters onto a path where not only do they consummate their relationship only after a marriage, but where they're doomed to have a child, and then Bella is randomly (after stating previously that she DOES NOT want to have kids) assigned this point of view where even when abortion is available or even probably life-saving, it's preferable to die in childbirth than to get one.
 
There are some ways of reading the series that are harmless entertainment fluff... however, it's a very shallow view of the series that doesn't notice that it can be problematic in terms of what it romanticizes.
 
While I totally get that Twilight is entertainment and doesn't need to be taken all that seriously. However, for YW in Morg who are heavily indoctrinated with dangerous ideas about the role of women, it's not good - not good at all - to reinforce this type of indoctrination, IMO.
 
On the flip side, I can sort of agree with this comment:
 
Despite the obvious flaws of the Twilight saga and movie, it still bothers me when women completely dismiss them. Twilight is potentially empowering in that it shows the power of young women at the book counter and the box office. While it may draw the ire of critics to point to power of women as consumers, let us not forget that its success is precisely what creates more opportunities for women writers, directors, actors, and fans. It will make it easier for projects made for and about young women to be made. Twilight is a film made for young women, written by a woman, directed by a woman, based on a literary work by a woman, and it has been incredibly successful. One can choose to view this as a victory for young women. Many commenters who allude to the dangerous, potentially damaging nature of these books are underestimating the ability of young women to think critically while enjoying these works and while waiting for less problematic representations to match Twilight's success.
 
However, addressing the expectation of the 'critical thinking' skills of young women, we all know that critical thinking is NOT encouraged in the Morg, not at all. Second, yes, we should encourage opportunities  for women writers, directors, etc, but if success only comes to those who cater to this type of genre, it's counterproductive, to say the least.
 
Again, I enjoyed the commentary following the article. Also, found the comparison to Romeo and Juliet quite interesting. Of course, noting that Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy.


   


Posted: 20 November 2011 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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ferretmom:
Stephen King said it best when he said "Harry Potter is about overcoming adversity. Twilight is about the importance of having a boyfriend."
 
That's what I thought about Sex And The City. Lol. But part of this could stem from the origins of vampire behavior in Bram Stoker's Dracula. The count becomes a vampire because of lost eternal/true love. Sexual conquest is a major theme, along with getting a 'true love' mate. It's why vampires throughout history are often depicted as suave, debonaire, sexually powerful and irrisistably predatory.
 
I read the first Twilight book and watched the first movie. I thought the book was a great read for a "young adult." The movie was OK -- the two stars are completely unattractive, IMO, so that made their love seem awkward in an ugly high school way.
 
But here's a thought: if you were a vampire who has supposedly lived for 300+ years, seen and done countless things all over the world, why would you want a 16-year-old virgin girlfriend? Wouldn't you want a woman with a little experience under her belt, as opposed to a child?
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Posted: 20 November 2011 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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AtheistAnarchist:
ferretmom:
Stephen King said it best when he said "Harry Potter is about overcoming adversity. Twilight is about the importance of having a boyfriend."
 
That's what I thought about Sex And The City. Lol. But part of this could stem from the origins of vampire behavior in Bram Stoker's Dracula. The count becomes a vampire because of lost eternal/true love. Sexual conquest is a major theme, along with getting a 'true love' mate. It's why vampires throughout history are often depicted as suave, debonaire, sexually powerful and irrisistably predatory.
 
I read the first Twilight book and watched the first movie. I thought the book was a great read for a "young adult." The movie was OK -- the two stars are completely unattractive, IMO, so that made their love seem awkward in an ugly high school way.
 
But here's a thought: if you were a vampire who has supposedly lived for 300+ years, seen and done countless things all over the world, why would you want a 16-year-old virgin girlfriend? Wouldn't you want a woman with a little experience under her belt, as opposed to a child?
 
You know what? As obvious as this is, it only "bugged" in a cursory way. People stretch across experience levels and ages in relationships, and as you already pointed out the 'true love' mate of other vampire stories is already pairing someone a couple of centuries old with a young woman (or in Buffy's case, a teenager...with actual depth, true...but still a teenager).
 
However, what bugged me: High School. Really?  You are already NOT fitting in with your super-expensive cars, weird skin and yellow eyes...you THINK that sitting through the drudgery of HIGH SCHOOL for a few years every once in a while is going to somehow make you FIT IN?  
 
Also, I kind of liked Edward's OLD way of vampirism; he read the minds of complete creepazoids and killed them. Hey, he is already undead and living outside of the normal laws of humanity, why not throw some vigilante-ism into the mix and have some yummy human blood?   
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 20 November 2011 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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I think Breaking Dawn's messages are neither those of "traditional womanhood" nor anything a bit fresher -- like -- say -- feminism. It is an icky uneatable stew of traditional and radical, even savage, critique of our ideas of conventional womanhood, showing us a young woman living a life, when the pretty, decorative goth dressing is torn away, so stereotypically 'feminine' that is no longer lived -- and probably never was. Cooking for daddy, waiting for marriage to have sex, insisting on a baby despite some problems, a woman palely passive and fundamentally such a ninny one has to wonder what Edward sees in her. I don't think you can deny the text of the movie is the dross Mormons peddle to young women as valuable gems.
 
But I also don't think you can ignore the screaming subtexts either. "My relationship with daddy is sick and twisted!" "Sex must be awful! It will kill me on my wedding night!" "Men in Mormonism are dead things that prey on the living for their 'immortality'!" "Suddenly out of the blue, they have pulled out of thin air this weird belief that I have to complete a pregnancy -- even if it kills me and produces a monster! Where did that come from?" "Perfect is a kind of death! Perfection is cold and inhuman!"
 
If any of this were thoughtfully done, it would be thought-provoking about the tension between these two sets of ideas. But it is so unconscious -- it is just a stomach-twisting mess.
 
Here are some of my favorite critiques so far: Schwarzbaum nails the nasty subtext -- and I hope leaves Mormons realizing they are waltzing down the street buck naked here.
 
 
“What we learn in this all-pain/no-pleasure episode is that marriage feels like a life sentence, weddings are miserable events, honeymoon sex is dangerous and leaves a bride covered in bruises, and pregnancy is a torment that leads to death in exchange for birth. Also, during pregnancy, families fight like werewolves and vampires. Way to go, [young adult] message.” – Lisa Schwarzbaum, Entertainment Weekly
While McWeeny sounds as though he is critiquing Mormonism itself.

“Twilight is to real horror as cotton candy is to real food.  But only if the cotton candy is spun out of arsenic and crystal meth, because for the metaphor to be accurate, it needs to be something that is sickly sweet but genuine poison.”—Drew McWeeny, HitFix
Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/11/19/time-begins-to-crawl-backwards-the-7-harshest-critics-jabs-at-breaking-dawn/#ixzz1eGcwgStA
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Posted: 20 November 2011 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Dadto1
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Dammit!
 
I went to Breaking Dawn with my non-LDS girlfriend yesterday...She informed me that the author of the novels is LDS....I don't believe in tithing like the LDS do but give offerings when inspired while I visit non-LDS churches..She informed me with a (evil chuckle) that I payed my 10% this pay period...She said "Well sweetie, the author is Mormon and she pays tithing.....10% of 30 million to be exact.....crap....I can't win....LOL
 
 oh well, I guess I payed it...!! 


   


Posted: 20 November 2011 09:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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thewriterwithin:
I think Breaking Dawn's messages are neither those of "traditional womanhood" nor anything a bit fresher -- like -- say -- feminism. It is an icky uneatable stew of traditional and radical, even savage, critique of our ideas of conventional womanhood, showing us a young woman living a life, when the pretty, decorative goth dressing is torn away, so stereotypically 'feminine' that is no longer lived -- and probably never was. Cooking for daddy, waiting for marriage to have sex, insisting on a baby despite some problems, a woman palely passive and fundamentally such a ninny one has to wonder what Edward sees in her. I don't think you can deny the text of the movie is the dross Mormons peddle to young women as valuable gems.
 
But I also don't think you can ignore the screaming subtexts either. "My relationship with daddy is sick and twisted!" "Sex must be awful! It will kill me on my wedding night!" "Men in Mormonism are dead things that prey on the living for their 'immortality'!" "Suddenly out of the blue, they have pulled out of thin air this weird belief that I have to complete a pregnancy -- even if it kills me and produces a monster! Where did that come from?" "Perfect is a kind of death! Perfection is cold and inhuman!"
 
If any of this were thoughtfully done, it would be thought-provoking about the tension between these two sets of ideas. But it is so unconscious -- it is just a stomach-twisting mess.
 
Here are some of my favorite critiques so far: Schwarzbaum nails the nasty subtext -- and I hope leaves Mormons realizing they are waltzing down the street buck naked here.
 
 
“What we learn in this all-pain/no-pleasure episode is that marriage feels like a life sentence, weddings are miserable events, honeymoon sex is dangerous and leaves a bride covered in bruises, and pregnancy is a torment that leads to death in exchange for birth. Also, during pregnancy, families fight like werewolves and vampires. Way to go, [young adult] message.” – Lisa Schwarzbaum, Entertainment Weekly
While McWeeny sounds as though he is critiquing Mormonism itself.

“Twilight is to real horror as cotton candy is to real food.  But only if the cotton candy is spun out of arsenic and crystal meth, because for the metaphor to be accurate, it needs to be something that is sickly sweet but genuine poison.”—Drew McWeeny, HitFix
Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/11/19/time-begins-to-crawl-backwards-the-7-harshest-critics-jabs-at-breaking-dawn/#ixzz1eGcwgStA
 
TWW: You mention that the subtext of unhealthy relationships, fruitless mortal searches for perfection, and a focus on female worth tied up with procreation are unconscious. I agree. I think Meyers' work of fiction sums up the horror that is the female Mo'Org existence while simultaneously offering an explanation for why the horror is accepted and even desired by so many for so long. It's an object lesson, IMHO. I don't know if that makes it better or worse, or if that even makes sense.
 


   


Posted: 20 November 2011 11:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara:
 
TWW: You mention that the subtext of unhealthy relationships, fruitless mortal searches for perfection, and a focus on female worth tied up with procreation are unconscious. I agree. I think Meyers' work of fiction sums up the horror that is the female Mo'Org existence while simultaneously offering an explanation for why the horror is accepted and even desired by so many for so long. It's an object lesson, IMHO. I don't know if that makes it better or worse, or if that even makes sense.
 
 
It makes sense. and it makes the phenomena make sense. Good, Mashiara. The books and movies also makes the horror of female Mormondom "romantic," at least if they are working for you.
 
I think it will be studied in the future for those weird subtexts, for clues to what happened to the women who lived through changing times while clinging to the illusion they were not only unchanging but unable to change.
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Posted: 21 November 2011 02:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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thewriterwithin:
Mashiara:
 
TWW: You mention that the subtext of unhealthy relationships, fruitless mortal searches for perfection, and a focus on female worth tied up with procreation are unconscious. I agree. I think Meyers' work of fiction sums up the horror that is the female Mo'Org existence while simultaneously offering an explanation for why the horror is accepted and even desired by so many for so long. It's an object lesson, IMHO. I don't know if that makes it better or worse, or if that even makes sense.
 
 
It makes sense. and it makes the phenomena make sense. Good, Mashiara. The books and movies also makes the horror of female Mormondom "romantic," at least if they are working for you.
 
I think it will be studied in the future for those weird subtexts, for clues to what happened to the women who lived through changing times while clinging to the illusion they were not only unchanging but unable to change.
 
Thank you TWW :) . I was struck by the highlighted portion of your reply. It gave me insight into the cyclical nature of the problem. A woman that accepts and even romanticizes such an existence will naturally try to embody the ideal she envisions. When reality inevitably fails to live up to her expectations, it causes a mental disconnect which could have devastating consequences. Unfortunately, in the Mo'Org, she is likely to blame herself for the failure, which may cause her to channel her frustrations and her fears into her parenting...she then impresses on her female children the need to be perfect in the impossible standards set forth by TSCC that ultimately subjugate and marginalize the women. So now we have another generation of young women that are receiving unhealthy messages of a feminine ideal simultaneously delivered with the message they must live up to these ideals, sacrificing themselves at all costs, for the sake of their eternal souls, and the souls of their (as yet unborn) children. Meanwhile, the world passes these women by. 
 


   


Posted: 21 November 2011 02:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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Dahli-mama
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http://koriwhoresdoubleds.blogspot.com/2011_01_01_archive.html

http://altarkation.wordpress.com/2008/11/26/twilight-a-tale-of-passionate-mormon-jailbait-vampire-love/



MORMONISM. When the sexiest part of a gratuitous vampire romance novel is some constrained dry humping then ur doin it wrong.

And this interesting take on the whole not so subtle messages of abuse and co-dependency reflected in the Twilight series
http://networkedblogs.com/p18109103



http://networkedblogs.com/p18109103

For a book series that is penned by a woman and loved by an audience
that is made up primarily of women, the female protagonist is awfully weak.
Bella is constantly dependant on a male figure to make herself content and
stable, and seems to have no desire in her life other than loving Edward, being
with Edward, and making sure that Edward is happy. She is weak and frail, and
 needs “rescued” by the capable, strong men in her life on more than one
occasion. For a book series that young women flock to, this is all highly
unsettling. Stephanie Meyers’s Twilight saga preaches unhealthy relationships
 and stereotypically anti-feminist values, all the while justifying this by
wrapping it up in a pretty, sparkling package and calling it “love”.



   


Posted: 21 November 2011 03:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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Mashiara:
 
Thank you TWW :) . I was struck by the highlighted portion of your reply. It gave me insight into the cyclical nature of the problem. A woman that accepts and even romanticizes such an existence will naturally try to embody the ideal she envisions. When reality inevitably fails to live up to her expectations, it causes a mental disconnect which could have devastating consequences. Unfortunately, in the Mo'Org, she is likely to blame herself for the failure, which may cause her to channel her frustrations and her fears into her parenting...she then impresses on her female children the need to be perfect in the impossible standards set forth by TSCC that ultimately subjugate and marginalize the women. So now we have another generation of young women that are receiving unhealthy messages of a feminine ideal simultaneously delivered with the message they must live up to these ideals, sacrificing themselves at all costs, for the sake of their eternal souls, and the souls of their (as yet unborn) children. Meanwhile, the world passes these women by. 
 
 
I am not sure the world is passing them by. I think they are changing, but like the sexuality of the Twilight series, it is a little twisted. I know many Mormon women who work outside the home, and their incomes are very important to the well-being of their families. But they still pay this weird lipservice to disliking feminism. So they claim to dislike the people who made their families' financial well-being possible. Whatever.
 
I think that few Mormon women live the same lives their grandmothers or mothers lived -- but they tell themselves they do. They tell themselves they hate the liberals, contemporary thinkers, and feminists whose work has enriched their relationships with their kids and husbands and made them think quite a bit more about their own feelings and experiences. It is like the "sexiness" of Breaking Dawn -- it can't be honest, but it is still there -- all twisted up and muddled.
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Posted: 21 November 2011 04:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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Sorry. I started a new topic on this thread. Time to go to bed.
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Posted: 21 November 2011 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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I honestly don't think most teenagers put much thought into these movies. Mormon or not.
 
Jacob, hot
Edward, hot
Creepy love story, cool!
 
I think they are totally oblivious to some deep underlying message.  Sure there's some who become obsessed with the whole thing, but I think most deal with reality just fine. 


   


Posted: 21 November 2011 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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bjohn:
I honestly don't think most teenagers put much thought into these movies. Mormon or not.
 
Jacob, hot
Edward, hot
Creepy love story, cool!
 
I think they are totally oblivious to some deep underlying message.  Sure there's some who become obsessed with the whole thing, but I think most deal with reality just fine. 
 
I would agree with this, and add that the formula of "awkward teenager that feels insecure landing hottest boy at school" is attractive, as well. In fact, the criticism that Bella has no personality is another thing that adds to its appeal; each and every teenager girl can easily imagine herself as the character with no annoying strong characteristics to get in the way.  Finally, the whole vampire thing is pretty popular...and we can speculate all day on that one.
 
However, I don't think it's invalid to examine the message the story gives, from an adult perspective, and I am not sure a teenager is going to be completely oblivious. Now, they may be aware enough to treat it as the junk food that it is (mmm. Yummm. Not healthy...who cares?)...and they probably don't think it's very serious...But I don't think they are necessarily completely oblivious...
 
Example: One of the things my mom did right was put me in a book-of-the-month club as a kid. Kids books would be sent to the house, and I devoured them. I had 2 favorites: 1 was an adventure story of a sister and brother, with very little heed paid to traditional gender roles, and the other was a fairy tale of a woman that traveled around and ended up being the one that happened to defeat the fairy king, slay a dragon, etc. through wit, mostly. I LOVED that one! It was cool! NO other fairy tale I had read (to that point) had a powerful woman, and she was SO independent! And the adventure story; I wore it out. The brother and sister supported each other, and each of them were braver than the other at one point in the story, and they both had each other's backs.
 
I just think if kids are given strong heros and heroines, they will devour the stories , remember them, and just maybe become inspired to be strong people when they grow up. Perhaps they will stand up to the religious indoctrination of their youth...   (or something like that).
 


   


Posted: 21 November 2011 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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Several people - women - at work today talked about seeing Breaking Dawn and how totally wonderful it was. 
 
One is about 30, may be a practicing alcoholic, or practicing to be an alcoholic. 
 
The other two are mid 20s, one single and one married to a former Marine and has a kid. 
 
I offered the comment that a young woman I know had asked for advice about her relationship with a man who is much, much older than she is, who controls her all the time over every part of her life, who is borderline abusive, especially when it comes to sex - what he wants to do leaves her bruised up - and he insists they hang around with teenagers.
 
All three said that was sick and perverted, then got upset and changed the subject when I said I made a mistake, it was not somebody I know it was a Belle... 
 
I just don't get it. 
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Posted: 21 November 2011 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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StormWalker:
Several people - women - at work today talked about seeing Breaking Dawn and how totally wonderful it was. 
 
One is about 30, may be a practicing alcoholic, or practicing to be an alcoholic. 
 
The other two are mid 20s, one single and one married to a former Marine and has a kid. 
 
I offered the comment that a young woman I know had asked for advice about her relationship with a man who is much, much older than she is, who controls her all the time over every part of her life, who is borderline abusive, especially when it comes to sex - what he wants to do leaves her bruised up - and he insists they hang around with teenagers.
 
All three said that was sick and perverted, then got upset and changed the subject when I said I made a mistake, it was not somebody I know it was a Belle... 
 
I just don't get it. 
 
Yes. This gets to the heart of the mystery.
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Utah Polygamy On TV  
Posted: 29 December 2013 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Utah polygamous family gets full reality TV series
 
http://www.thetowntalk.com/viewart/20131228/LIFESTYLE/312280007/Utah-polygamous-family-gets-full-reality-TV-series
 
You know, since the practice found decriminalization in the recent court ruling.
 
All the media lights went green!
 
"Following the recent court ruling, Williams said now is the time for polygamists to show they are deserving of the recognition..."


.
Oh boy, what a mess.
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
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Posted: 29 December 2013 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Thank you josephs myth for finding another interesting link!
 
Seems to me that programs like this will show some of the country how crazy mormonism is but there are others who will find polygamy attractive.  I realize many of you disagree with me on this but I still think it poses a danger to some degree.  I am still not certain that after the church hits the tipping point and loses most of its "normal" people that it would not do anything to stay afloat.
 
I just dont see where the church can go unless it chooses to be a religion of far out of the norm such as the polygamist.  It has far too much dirt in its background to become a protestant church.  I am not saying it will happen but I see it as a possibility. 
 
Sandra Tanner produced a DVD that I think was called, "Under the Veil of Polygamy" or something to that affect.  She said that underground polygamy is growing in numbers of new converts.   Now that it is legal in Utah--IF the numbers of polygamist were to grow significantly and IF LDS, Inc were desprate to hold on to its cash cow, I am not certain it would not embrace the polygamist.   To me, any possiblity of this feels like a danger for my brainwashed, cognitive dissonaced family.  I am not sure how far they would go in order to follow the profit.


   


Posted: 30 December 2013 09:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Another series to view on TV is "Breaking the Faith." Have to give those young people a lot of credit for their bravery in getting out from under Jeff's control.
 
And as far as polygamy "deserving recognition" now, I can't seem to wrap my mind around that concept at all, as it doesn't really deserve to be a part of any one's life as the negative aspects outweigh the positive in regards to its deleterious effects on society in general. The Canadian court up in BC, have already spoken well in this regard.


   


Posted: 30 December 2013 09:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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former victim:
Another series to view on TV is "Breaking the Faith." Have to give those young people a lot of credit for their bravery in getting out from under Jeff's control.
 
And as far as polygamy "deserving recognition" now, I can't seem to wrap my mind around that concept at all, as it doesn't really deserve to be a part of any one's life as the negative aspects outweigh the positive in regards to its deleterious effects on society in general. The Canadian court up in BC, have already spoken well in this regard.
 
 
This newest breed of sensational reality shows is apparently simply a sickness.
 
And it all hinges on the sickest of societies. 641 - Polygamy: What Love Is This? (14 Nov 2013) - YouTube
 
Sons Of Perdition ( Sons of Perdition - Sneak Peek  ) is another tragic documentary film.  Hardly entertaining.
 
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
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Posted: 30 December 2013 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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josephs myth:
 
Utah polygamous family gets full reality TV series
 
http://www.thetowntalk.com/viewart/20131228/LIFESTYLE/312280007/Utah-polygamous-family-gets-full-reality-TV-series
 
You know, since the practice found decriminalization in the recent court ruling.
 
All the media lights went green!
 
"Following the recent court ruling, Williams said now is the time for polygamists to show they are deserving of the recognition..."


.
Oh boy, what a mess.
This guy's 'wives' are a whole lot more attractive than Cody's wives. I think a lot of guys would sign up for having 5 wives, although I don't even want one. 
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Posted: 30 December 2013 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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What's interesting about this polygamous family is that they're no longer affiliated with any kind of Mormonism. They left the AUB splinter group of Mormonism, so they were more progressive to begin with than what you'd find among the FLDS. For example, AUB never did the child bride thing. Polygamy has been nominally voluntary in the AUB, though doctrinally deemed necessary for the highest exaltation.
 
Now, despite leaving their Mormon splinter group, they remain in this committed polygamous relationship. The whole family quit Mormonism together. They investigate other types of spiritual experiences. I figure what keeps these women with their "husband" is that they actually have a good relationship with him and with each other. Why would we expect that just because they left a mind control cult they would break up their family? If it works for them, it works.
 
If they hadn't previously been AUB they probably wouldn't be polygamists, but they are what they are.
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Posted: 15 January 2014 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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"There are an estimated 38,000 fundamentalist Mormons who practice or believe in polygamy, most living in Utah and other Western states"
 
 
  "Sister Wives" family humbled by ruling decriminalising polygamy in Utah
 
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/sister-wives-family-humbled-by-utah-polygamy-ruling/story-e6frfmyi-1226800265084
 
Maybe it's time the Internet does more of the policing of "non-criminal", previously criminal behavior.  Stemming (no pun intened) from some shroomer with a weak brain, like Smith.
 
 
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Posted: 16 January 2014 06:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
former victim
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And most recently, the TLC channel is featuring another series called "Escaping the Prophet." 

   


            
 
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Glenn Beck, telling the world, home teachers “had” to visit monthly…unless….  
Posted: 13 January 2014 07:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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You resign completely.
 
  He was touting it as a church taking care of it's members....talking about the family who was teaching a 2 year old to swear...and the cops went in, saw a horrible home life, and took the child from the situation.
 
 (Aparently it's a viral video, gang nation or something.)  
 
Anyway, Glenn was telling that it's the responsibility of the local churches and neighborhood to "love bomb" this family into changing their ways.  
 
He was promoting Home teachers as the perfect example of this type of caring, also stating that Home Teachers always go and knock even when requested not to...until one resigns.  Telling how he himself hated to bug the apostates, getting doors slammed in his face...but he was forced by his religion to do so.  So he was willing to print off the resignation papers and even forge their names...if they didn't want contact.  He stated they probably needed a backdoor back to church if there was a need.  But he was calling for resignation...give the letter to your Bishop and not be bugged again.
 
Hate to tell Glenn but even after one resigns they still bug the "FORMER" member.  
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Posted: 13 January 2014 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:
You resign completely.
 
  He was touting it as a church taking care of it's members....talking about the family who was teaching a 2 year old to swear...and the cops went in, saw a horrible home life, and took the child from the situation.
 
 (Aparently it's a viral video, gang nation or something.)  
 
Anyway, Glenn was telling that it's the responsibility of the local churches and neighborhood to "love bomb" this family into changing their ways.  
 
He was promoting Home teachers as the perfect example of this type of caring, also stating that Home Teachers always go and knock even when requested not to...until one resigns.  Telling how he himself hated to bug the apostates, getting doors slammed in his face...but he was forced by his religion to do so.  So he was willing to print off the resignation papers and even forge their names...if they didn't want contact.  He stated they probably needed a backdoor back to church if there was a need.  But he was calling for resignation...give the letter to your Bishop and not be bugged again.
 
Hate to tell Glenn but even after one resigns they still bug the "FORMER" member.  
 
 Sounds like China, neighbors spying on neighbors and reporting them for violations against the party. 
Glenn Beck's version of utopia is most people's version of hell, especially if he's elected to Lord over it.  
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Posted: 13 January 2014 09:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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So he was willing to print off the resignation papers and even forge their names...if they didn't want contact
 
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Posted: 13 January 2014 06:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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That's what he'd promise he'd do...for those folks who begged for no contact. What a creep.
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Wonder what problems would concern God if the Mormon church moved their Headquarters to Mexico instead?  
Posted: 12 January 2014 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Great Article, here, written by a Kiwi Mormon in response to the Mormon church's latest release of their "Official Statment" and God's unfortunate obsession with local Utah politics, to the church's detriment, where she brings up an excellent point,
 
-
Years ago, after reading ‘Approaching Zion’ for the first time, my friend Chris, who introduced it to me suggested that the only way for the church to flourish and grow is for the headquarters to get out of Utah, or even the United States.
‘Relocate it to Mexico’, he suggested.
I’m picking its about time to do just that.  Then lets see what issues bubble up for God!
 
 
I'll never forget how disillusioned I became with "The Faith of My Fathers" in the wake of 9-11, on the threshold of America's Longest War, when Gordo the Clown PRofit had nothing significant to say about 9-11. I needed to know God's intentions on that day. The silence was deafening. At the conference immediately following 9-11, he issued his now infamous fatwah against body piercings and tatoos, since he'd noticed a sharp rise in them amongst the youth in Utah, the horror.
I couldn't believe this was God's biggest concern, in the wake of the worst terrorist attack on American soil.
That was really the point at which I said,
-
‘I’ve had enough’, 
‘I can’t do this anymore’,
‘I’m out’.  
Later I came accross the Dalai Lama's response to 9-11, which he made on 9-11, which was far more profund, wise and meaningful to me than anything I'd ever heard come out of the mouth of a Latter-day so-called "PRofit", and he doesn't even claim to be a prophet, or to even believe in God, much less speak for any kind of a God.
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Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

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Financial Report for 2009 to Date




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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Native American DNA
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
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INRETROSPECT

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Mormon Video More Than A Million Views  
Posted: 08 January 2014 09:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Visit the Mormon Channel, the Church’s channel for media content on YouTube.
 "...YouTube. Across the more than one dozen YouTube channels the church owns, including versions of the Mormon Channel in Cantonese and Russian, 14 of the videos have surpassed one million views"
 
Mormon YouTube videos with more than 1 million
 
That's a lot of bare feet for the average shoe salesman to maybe try and conquer.
 
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
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Posted: 09 January 2014 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
NoMorKulAde
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I guess having so many YouTube channels up and running gives the missionaries with their new iPads sitting at the church waiting for visitors something to do besides search for porn.
 
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Posted: 09 January 2014 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Of course the church is promoting this because it sounds good but when you also have vidoes of say grumpy cat with millions and millions of more views.......I mean you have to question the value the mormon videos are really having.  There are probably more people in the world today that know about grumpy cat than the Book of Mormon.
 
Maybe this kind of internet data is going to provide the Church with a new success number to promote to their members to keep them feeling like the Church is still making progress and the stone cut without hands is still rolling.  Add "views" or whatever to the number of temples, number of missionaries and the 300k that supposedly join every year that reminds tbms just how amazing their Church is.......as long as someone does not start the church of grumpy cat, tbms should be fine.
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Posted: 09 January 2014 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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My thought on this is....eh. 
 
  Like Lloyd said, there are video's like grumpy cat.  Or FRIDAY by Rebecca Black that passed 1 Million on multptiple uploads. Also, just cause there are video's with over 1 million views, it doesn't say that they were viewed by No Mo's. I would guess a lot of those views are from TBM's.
 
But for them, it's a feather in their cap. I just don't see it as being as big a deal as they do.  
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Posted: 09 January 2014 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler:
Of course the church is promoting this because it sounds good but when you also have vidoes of say grumpy cat with millions and millions of more views.......I mean you have to question the value the mormon videos are really having.  There are probably more people in the world today that know about grumpy cat than the Book of Mormon.
 
Maybe this kind of internet data is going to provide the Church with a new success number to promote to their members to keep them feeling like the Church is still making progress and the stone cut without hands is still rolling.  Add "views" or whatever to the number of temples, number of missionaries and the 300k that supposedly join every year that reminds tbms just how amazing their Church is.......as long as someone does not start the church of grumpy cat, tbms should be fine.
 
 Not to mention, a person can watch a video for one second, turn it off & it's still considered a view on YT. So, not only could many of those million views be accidental or hardly considered views at all, but that number can easily be padded.


   


Posted: 09 January 2014 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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YouTube's Top Viral Videos of 2013
-
Here are the links to all of the videos from the list:
Dove Real Beauty - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=... & of course the male version - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzDUbU...
Forward - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6jprO...
How Animals Eat their food - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnydFm...
Ryan Gosling Won't Eat His Cereal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohJtvu...
Hamster Trolls Russian Policeman - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZPoUY...
Reporter Humiliates Drunk Woman during Superbowl Week -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r23WDS...
Kai the Hatchet Wielding Hitchhiker - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckfBGd...
Urban Wingsuit flying into Rio - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFmvMH...
6 Year Old Black Metal Singer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37sjxL...
Charles Ramsey - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCn04...
Harlem Shake - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=384IUU...
Chris Hadfield - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaOC9d...
Goat Videos -- Skrillex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eCbGr...
If amatuer Russian talking hamsters and Goat Videos get more attention than your multimillion dollar slick PRopoganda campaign, I doubt that's what Isaiah & Joseph's Myth was prophesizing when they predicted the truth would be like a great stone rolling forth from the mountain and growing until it filled the whole face of the Earth. lol 
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Posted: 09 January 2014 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Clicking on a video gives a number, but doesn't necessarily mean someone watched the whole thing (probably not) or will "join up" because of it.
 
It just showed people clicked...zillions of folks click....they don't finish.
 
(Uh er...hmmm.)
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Posted: 09 January 2014 10:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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That Urban Wing suit video was pretty cool.....
 
 
 NO WAY IN HELL I'd ever do that,  but it was cool non the less :D
 
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Posted: 09 January 2014 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Didn't that wing-suit guy just crash and die recently?
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Posted: 09 January 2014 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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WanderingGeek:
That Urban Wing suit video was pretty cool.....
 
 
 NO WAY IN HELL I'd ever do that,  but it was cool non the less :D
 
I'd totally do it, or die trying more like it, lol.
These guys like Jeb Corliss, are pushing the envelope of what it means to be human.  He doesn't give a f*#k about death. Coolest guy on the planet.
It takes about $30,000 just to get to the point where you can put on a wingsuit and jump off a cliff and expect to live.
My partner died last July of cancer at 58, high on morphine and 10 different kinds of drugs that either made her constipated or diarhetic. I told my Mom, just FYI, I'm not going to die of cancer. I'm going to die in a flying squirell suit. 
I hadn't seen any of those videos, but the one about how animals eat is awesome, haha. 
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Posted: 09 January 2014 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Yeah  that is cool Kori. I totally understand the idea. It's like soldiers would rather die in battle.
My dad died of Cancer in his 50's as well. So I get the thought of wanting to go out with a bang :)  
 
 
 And Tessa, a guy did die doing that, but I don't think it was the guy in the video..but I am not sure.
 
 
 
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Posted: 09 January 2014 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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WanderingGeek:
Yeah  that is cool Kori. I totally understand the idea. It's like soldiers would rather die in battle.
My dad died of Cancer in his 50's as well. So I get the thought of wanting to go out with a bang :)  
I've witnessed far too many people die of cancer, suffering horribly, beyond words. I'm just determined to NOT go out like that, to live every day like it is my last day on Earth and to learn every day as though I'll live forever. Of course, my own Father has survived 3 different kinds of cancer, (among a whole littany of other medical issues that would have killed a lesser man.) is 81 and living the best years of his life. He's going on his 2nd Carribean Cruise in 2 months, with his "child bride" (of 56 years) and another couple of friends from Australia. It's an annual thing they do. He's glad he stuck around for this. He claims his cancer cured his diabeties, because it made him lose 45lbs. Amazing what dropping 45 lbs does for your health. He still claims he's going to die at the hands of a jealous Husband, lol. As if!
And Tessa, a guy did die doing that, but I don't think it was the guy in the video..but I am not sure. 
Lots of guys die pushing the envelope of what it means to be human, which isn't tragic, it's heroic and they accept the risks.
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Posted: 09 January 2014 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Out of the millions of YouTube hits for the church videos, you just KNOW a high percentage of those are from TBMs. They've announced it over the pulpit in conference and sacrament meetings, in church publications and magazines, pass along cards... I can just see some YW groups getting together on a Tuesday evening for their activity and watching these videos. I know of bishops who have used these videos in training sessions or on 5th Sunday combined meetings. 
 
A million hits? OK, and 999,000 of those hits are from TBMs.
 
When TSCC starts getting hits in the numbers of Justin Bieber or Gangnam Style, then maybe I'll pay attention. 
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Posted: 09 January 2014 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Or Simon's Cat.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 09 January 2014 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Funniest parody I've ever seen,
Dove Real Beauty Sketches: #Balls
Got 1,391,885 hits.  
Beat that Morg!!! 
 
Kai the Hatchet Wielding Hitchhiker - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckfBGd... 
is pretty hillarious too. Unfortunately the dude is currently undergoing prosecution for murder.
I hadn't seen any of these viral videos. Need to start spending more time on YouTube I guess.  
 
 
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Posted: 09 January 2014 07:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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The removal of a zit some lady had for 25 years has 11 million hits.
That's something to include in your testimony meeting speech.
 
Becky
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Posted: 09 January 2014 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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That "What What in the Butt?' video has 54 million views.
 
Gangnam Style is closing in on 2 billion.  That's the most watched.  Justin Bieber comes in second at near a billion.
Becky
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Posted: 10 January 2014 12:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Absent Minded Housewife:
That "What What in the Butt?' video has 54 million views.
 
Gangnam Style is closing in on 2 billion.  That's the most watched.  Justin Bieber comes in second at near a billion.
Becky
 
I'll stick with the fisherman. 
 
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Posted: 10 January 2014 07:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:
Absent Minded Housewife:
That "What What in the Butt?' video has 54 million views.
 
Gangnam Style is closing in on 2 billion.  That's the most watched.  Justin Bieber comes in second at near a billion.

 
I'll stick with the fisherman. 
 
 
Well, if I had the choice to cuddle with Justin Bieber of Fisherman, I think I'd choose Fisherman.  I'm posting that to my blog wall.   Hilarious.
 
Becky
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Joseph and Emma are really amazing people. Just look at who they are related to.  
Posted: 05 January 2014 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
rain
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My hubby and I were in the Joseph Smith building for Salt Lake City's EVE celebration.  There were a couple of really good rock bands.  This would never have happened a few years ago, right? Or have a missed something. But I digress . . .
 In the Family History foyer there was a huge plaque on the wall with the family tree of Emma and Joseph.  Guess what?  They were both related to a large number of United States Presidents. My question is, (and I think I know the answer, but just wanted to run this by you guys), If you took any number of people born in the Eastern United States in the late 1700's to early 1800's, wouldn't the majority of people  be related to someone in a position of prominence in American History?  Just checking.


   


Posted: 05 January 2014 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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The words *by adoption* come to mind. Joseph *adopted* lots of men...beware any "tree" put up by the church. Many folks have had to redo genealogy because of this "policy" as much of it wasn't true. (Especially those to attached folks to royal houses...getting their genealogy back to Jesus.)
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Posted: 05 January 2014 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
rain
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I didn't look that carefully at the pedigree line, but I think it was father/mother blood line-kind of connection. But I could be wrong. 

   


Posted: 05 January 2014 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Personally, I think Mormon geneology is highly suspect.  During the abolishion of polygamy, it was common to hide who you were related to.  The Mormons attempt to keep it going even after the 1890 manifesto caused many to hide their genenolgy.  Many polygamist women pretended to be single mothers with children.  They commonly lied about who the fathers of their children were. 


   


Posted: 05 January 2014 09:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Hows about some simple reality here?
Humanity fits on a bell curve on all sorts of things.
Fame fits up one end of one curve, and notoriety up the other. That other end is where the misfits and murderers fit.
But Mormonism gives us the star-list: how predictable.
This is typical of how poor Mormon collective self-esteem is, with them always wanting to appropriate the famous, including movie stars.
Christ, grow up people; get a freakin' life.
Daryl
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‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 06 January 2014 01:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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I think Shirley McClaine was Emma Smith in a previous life, as well as Cleopatra.
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Posted: 06 January 2014 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
GrandmaNeverMo
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Ooops, hit the wrong button and had to start over.
 
Yes, if you go back to colonial times, you will discover many living people who are related to famous people. 300-400 years is a long time for a family to reproduce and migrate.
 
Consider this colonial couple, John Howland and Elizabeth Tilley of the Mayflower, who had 10 children and 86 grandchildren.  If you assume an average of 2 children per person over 16 generations, you discover that the Howlands' descendants probably number in the millions. I am a non-famous descendant. The Howlands have numerous famous descendants, see http://www.pilgrimjohnhowlandsociety.org/john-howland/famous-howland-descendants for more. More info http://www.americanancestors.org/pilgrim-families-john-howland/. You might know one of their descendants, or be one yourself, and not realize it.
 
Joseph Smith's genealogy may be accurate and he may indeed be related to presidents; I don't have an easy way to check on it. That brings up another question - it's entertaining to know that you have famous relatives, but how does that make you special or worthy of notice? I have famous relatives, but I also have infamous relatives who are acknowledged as part of the family tree. Each person should be judged on his or her own merits, not on the merits (or lack thereof) of his relatives.
 
Slightly OT. I once heard a Mormon genealogy teacher say that if you can get back to a royal line, you can go all the way back to the Bible. No you can't, unless you indulge in a lot of wishful thinking. 


   


Posted: 06 January 2014 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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 and how in the hell did the Kardashians appear out of nowhere and get into media coverage ? Neither them nor the Smiths deserve notoriety with or without a pedigree to a castle or white house. Might as well deforest the earth in making a paper list of average folks that learned to spin and weave their way into infamous history. 
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Posted: 06 January 2014 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
 and how in the hell did the Kardashians appear out of nowhere and get into media coverage ? Neither them nor the Smiths deserve notoriety with or without a pedigree to a castle or white house. Might as well deforest the earth in making a paper list of average folks that learned to spin and weave their way into infamous history. 
 
 The Kardashians? The aliens from Star Trek, you know, the Kardashians and the Bajorans?That's what comes to mind any time someone mentions those people who are famous for being famous.


   


Posted: 06 January 2014 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Don't forget poor Odo...The Changling.
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William • 4 days ago− + ⚑JWs are slaves to an organization, not love slaves of God. Control groups will say one thing to the media and are not even above theocratic warfare lying (cf. Muslims lying to infidels to secure a greater good for Islam). Raymond Franz eventually understood true freedom of religion and conscience, but he paid a big price to stand up for what is right. There is no freedom in false religion.
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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten Mod • 4 days ago− + ⚑I will never forget what my mother said to me when I told her I no longer wanted to be a Jehovah's Witness.
"In the new system, I will have many other children and will call one of my sons Jaymes. It will be difficult to forget you at first, but after thousands of years of living, I'll start to forget you. After millions of years, I won't even remember what you looked like. All my other children that I'll have will love Jehovah and I will love them so much."
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Alex James >Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten • 3 days ago− + ⚑Oh my god, you poor thing. I'm not surprised though, too many parents in the JW religion love their children only conditionally. The minute you even question their beliefs, you're just not their child anymore. Very sad.
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Andres Torres >Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten • 3 days ago− + ⚑This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said.
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Andres Torres • 3 days ago− + ⚑They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It's like Marley said though, "None but ourselves can free our minds".
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » Are Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Submitted by Teeny on January 18, 2014 - 8:20 pm 5 Comments
Are Jehovah's Witnesses Free?
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom.
Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based teachings they once held dear, we recognize their right to leave. – Rick Fenton, Watchtower Spokesman, London, England
I know Rick personally. We’ve shared quite a few meals together and the Fenton’s are good friends with my parents, Philip and Anna Marsh, who also reside in the London, England Bethel.
Rick made this statement to the press after the July 15th 2011 Watchtower called me and all other ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses “mentally ill.” That specific Watchtower can be downloaded from a link within our article which discusses the Watchtower Society’s comments towards its former members.
In this article, we’re going to dissect Rick’s quote and see if what he said is true.
Rick made the following points in his statement:
Jehovah’s Witnesses are free to express their feelings
Free to ask questions
Free to change their mind
Free to leave the Watchtower
The lifesaving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. – Watchtower, November 15 2013, page 20, paragraph 17.
Did I just read that right? Basically, the Watchtower Society is saying that whatever they publish is deemed to be above human understanding! How can you or I possibly question anything the Watchtower teaches? We’re just human beings and have no right to ask questions that are above our station. <sarcasm>That sounds like a free environment where you and I can express our human feelings. </sarcasm>
We need to guard against developing a spirit of independence. By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today. – Watchtower, November 15, 2009, page 14, paragraph 5.
So Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t be independent and have to zip it if they disagree with anything the Watchtower Society has to say.
Rick made one final big mistake. He said “we recognise their right to leave.” He’s talking about someone that no longer wants to be a Jehovah’s Witnesses. Is that person free to leave the Watchtower? If Witnesses could come and go as they pleased, there wouldn’t really be too much heartache, right? I mean, if you turned to your parents and told them that you weren’t going to go to the meetings anymore because you don’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness, your parents wouldn’t pat you on the back and say “well son, we’re happy with your decision. Here, take my car and live a little.”
What actually happens when someone wants to leave or is disfellowshipped because they want to live a normal life?
(Paragraph 16) It is normal, therefore, to be deeply grieved when a beloved family member leaves Jehovah. (Paragraph 17) It may be difficult for those who have never experienced such a loss to appreciate how devastating it can be….How, then, can you cope with the profound grief that arises when a family member leaves Jehovah? – Watchtower, January 15, 2013, page 15, paragraphs 16 and 17.
Definition of Grief: A deep sorrow, especially that is caused by someone’s death.
Definition of Profound: Very great or intense.
Definition of Profound Grief: A very intense emotion that’s caused by someone’s death.
Put bluntly, if someone decides that they no longer want to be a Jehovah’s Witness and leaves the Organisation, especially in the case of one being disfellowshipped, it’s natural for his or her parents to feel a “profound grief” for their son or daughter. So what the Watchtower is telling us here is that when your son or daughter is disfellowshipped, you should feel the same emotions as if they were physically killed.
There’s a reason why so many take years to fade out of the Organisation. It’s so that their parents won’t feel devastated! If Jehovah’s Witnesses are free, why is there so much pain and suffering whenever someone wants to leave? Why can we not speak our minds if we disagree with some (or all) of the teachings?
Rick should be ashamed of himself. He lied to the media because the environment in which a Jehovah’s Witness lives is not one where you are:
Free to express your feelings
Free to ask questions
Free to change your mind
Free to leave the Watchtower
The sad truth is that if you do any of the things Rick Fenton said you, as a Witness can do, you run the risk of losing your family and friends.
Let me leave you with this last question – Do you believe the Jehovah’s Witnesses are still part of the Organisation because they want to be, or because they’re too scared to leave?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to thank Alex Strait for inspiring me to write this. Check out his fantastic video.

Tags: Freedom, Mentally Ill, Rick Fenton

    
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William • 5 days ago − + ⚑JWs are dead wrong about this and many other things. When Raymond Franz and Carl Jonsson had strong research on the issue, WT authoritarian structure rejected the light to remain in error, contrary to theological and secular evidence. They lack integrity and credibility and actually would disfellowship people for believing the truth instead of submitting to their arrogant ignorance.
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William • 4 days ago − + ⚑WT dates are all over the map and display great biblical and historical ignorance. Since most JWs do not think for themselves, but trust WT research, they will remain in error. This is one reason the idea of an authoritarian one-world group is specious. It spreads and preserves error without correction compared to local churches, leaders, etc. truly led by the Spirit with Scripture. Yes, there is potential for division along with unity, but uniformity is bad when it is based on error vs truth.
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Kimbal Summers • 5 days ago − + ⚑Yes well this is a pet subject of mine - since I was disfellowshipped over this very topic in 1989 after some 28+ years raised as a witness. I also personally corresponded with Doug Mason, Ray Franze, Carl Olof Jonsson and numerous others on the topic. I also had an original copy of Jonsson's thesis, as well as one of the biggest Witness libraries in Australia ( one that rivaled many USA Libraries ). Jonsson sent his thesis into the society in 1977. But it was Max Hatton's letters from 1963 which started the whole debate off in the Broadmeadows and its neighbouring Glenroy congregation in Melbourne, Australia where I grew up as a witness. Hatton's research findings then spread to the USA and to Europe where the Franze and Jonsson learned of them. This effected Ray Franze's research on the small A - E edition of the Aid Book and other publications which acted as a catalyst to cause many to leave in 1980 from Broolyn Bethel. These congregations effected by Hattons letters were from my local area in Australia, which originated from the Seventh Day Adventists in Melbourne that Max met when pioneering in the 60's. This chronology issue of 607 BCE also was the crux that screwed up 1975 as well and the appointment of holy spirit on the FDSC in 1919 and later the elder body in the local congregations in 1972. So feel free to shoot anything you like on such topics. I raised the issue of two copies of VAT 4956 in the British museum - one complete stating 587 was the fall of Jerusalem and the other copy was incomplete ( damaged ) and the W.T. Society chose the damaged tablet as support for their 607 date. I also found such topics went over the Elders heads. - Kimbal Summers
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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten Mod >Kimbal Summers • 4 days ago − + ⚑Hi Kimbal,
Can you email me about the 1919 date please? My email address is teeny@jehovahswitnessblog.com.
Thanks!
Jaymes
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
Submitted by Teeny on January 18, 2014 - 2:19 am 4 Comments
When was Jerusalem destroyed - 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares.
This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two options. If you’re a Jehovah’s Witness and aren’t even sure why 607 BCE is important, shame on you. You’ll need to go through door number 1 first, then check out the evidence as to when the city of Jerusalem was destroyed. If you understand why 607 BCE impacts on the year 1914, you can pass go, collect your £200 and advance to Mayfair – or collect $200 and advance to Boardwalk if you’re from across the pond.
Door Number 1 – Why is 607 BCE important and what does it have to do with the year 1914? I only ask because I’m a Jehovah’s Witness and I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Door Number 2 – Of course I know what 607 BCE has to do with 1914, I used to be a Witness you know! Now show me the evidence that points to 607 BCE being bull crap!
See you soon!

Tags: 1914, 607 BCE, Important Dates, Jerusalem

    
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Arno du Toit: @noble et al: It has always been an enigma for me (even while active in the Society) WHY there are... Arno du Toit: Believe it or not, but it was this very same Proclaimers Book that helped me getting OUT of the Society... Alex James: Elders put her in the preaching work with a man that they knew had fondled his own stepdaughter but they... Andres Torres: This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said. Andres Torres: They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It’s like Marley said... Featured Articles
Diary of an Armageddon Survivor
Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake?
Guide to Jehovah's Witness Beliefs
Significant Trees in Eden?
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Issues with Jehovah's Witnesses
JW Dating Advice
The Evil Ted – JW Urban Legend
What do JW's Believe?
Bible Prophecy
1. Jesus Christ and the Virgin Birth
2. When was Jesus Christ Born?
3. Jesus Christ's Garments Prophecy
4. Breaking Jesus Christ's Legs
5. 30 Pieces of Silver
Jehovah's Witness Funnies
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James Zimmerman • 8 days ago − + ⚑I thought the WT Society taught that the 430 years were years of affliction (not necessarily slavery) that began when Ishmael began taunting his younger half-brother Isaac. The slavery thing came at least three generations later - after Isaac's grandchildren (Joseph, et al) passed away.
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
PrevNext123Exposing the truth
about Jehovah's Witnesses
JW Beliefs
What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? In fact, what do a lot of other religions believe in? Hocus pocus if you ask me. Either way, our ‘Beliefs’ category takes a look at various religious belief systems.
Cult
Many say that the Jehovah’s Witness religion is a cult. Do you think it’s a cult? In this section, we’ve housed all the blog posts that show you if it is a cult or not. You might be shocked at what you find.
JW Leadership
The Watchtower Organisation looks after all the Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. The good news about the ‘Organisation’ is that it keeps having magic moments, allowing us to poke fun at it.
Real Life Experiences
This section is filled with the real life experiences of former and current Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s a real eye opener that shows you what various trials and tribulations Jehovah’s Witness go through.
Funnies
Check out the latest funny posts. If you’re single, the chat up / pick up lines article will have you rolling around on the Kingdom Hall floor. That’ll make you wish you stayed behind for ‘Hall Cleaning’.
JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Bible » Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Submitted by Steve on January 14, 2014 - 9:28 pm One Comment
An image of Charlton Heston portraying Moses in the film The Ten CommandmentsMost people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of the lesser-known miracles of the Bible: the ones that often pass by without notice.
13 women having 3 million great-grandchildren
The question is typically posed: How could 70 people have 3 million offspring in only four generations? We’re going to explain the rationale behind that question, answer it, and then show why it may not be the right question.
The Bible states that the members of Jacob’s family who went to Egypt were 70 in all, and gives the names of 57 of these as men — leaving 13 of them to be women (Gen. 46:8-27). Moses was only the third generation from one of these people (Kohath, who begat Amram, who took his aunt Jochebed to bed and begat Moses –Gen. 46:11, Ex. 6:18-20.)
From 57 men and 13 women, how many people could there have been in four generations? [Not three generations, because Moses was certainly old enough to have children at the time of the Exodus from Egypt.] The Bible tells us that there were 603,550 Hebrew men over 21 years of age who crossed over the Red Sea with Moses as they fled Egypt (Ex. 38:26). For each of these adult males, we could safely assume that there was at least one woman and three children. That would make a total of well over three million people!
According to the Guinness Book of World Records, the most prolific women have had great-grandchildren in the hundreds. For 13 women to achieve 3 million great-grandchildren would require an average of 230,769 great-grandchildren per woman! This, in turn, would require each woman on average to give birth to 38 children. The life-expectancy in those days was 38 years, but we’ll be generous and pretend that women gave birth through the age of 40. But that’s still not enough years to meet their quota of children even with single births every year (because from age 14 [sexual maturity] through age 40 is only 27 years.) So, each woman would have to bear at least 11 pairs of twins in addition to 16 single births. Every one of those children would need to survive and reproduce. Every single female child and grandchild would likewise have to meet this incredible quota of 38 offspring: giving birth every year of their lives between the ages of 14 and 40.
The above scenario would be extremely unlikely. Women: Can you imagine trying to breastfeed 6 babies at a time? Or getting pregnant again 3 months after giving birth — every year? Men: Can you imagine trying to raise 38 children on a slave’s wages? Oh, to have been a diaper salesman back then!
But, of course, Bible-defenders will claim that we’ve got it all wrong; they tell us that the Hebrews were in Egypt for 430 years (Exod 12:40-41). Okay; that certainly helps! Now, with more than four centuries to play with, our Hebrew women only had to produce 4 children apiece to arrive at 3 million Hebrews after 16 generations. That’s still remarkably fertile, but alas, not a miracle.
However, don’t be dejected; even with 430 years there are still some hidden miracles at work here.
Moses: Old Enough to be Dead?!
How could there only be four generations (at least in Moses’ line) in 430 years? After 430 years no one from the fourth generation would still be alive; they’d be over 300 years old.
Unless, of course, the men in Moses’ line fathered children after the age of 100, and Moses was at least a hundred years old when he crossed the Red Sea.
Oh, but even this “solution” leads to impossibilities miracles:
The miracles in Exodus
Now here’s the miracle: the Bible plainly tells us that Moses died at the age of 120 (Deut 34:7). That means he had been dead for forty years before he ever led the Hebrews out of Egypt! Quite a feat! No wonder he was reluctant to speak in public; the smell would’ve been enough to put most of his hearers off.
But, other Bible-defenders will tell us that these Bible-defenders have it all wrong; the Hebrews weren’t in Egypt for 430 years, they tell us; they were only there for half that time (215 years) based on Galatians 3:16-17. So, we could now have a living Moses to lead them as follows:
The miracles in Exodus
So, for the Bible-defenders in the 215-year camp (which may be the minority) there is no miracle here. But I’ve unearthed some related ones for us to enjoy:
More, yet fewest!
There were more Hebrews than Egyptians (according to Exodus 1) yet a chronologically later Bible book [supposedly also written by Moses] states:”The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.” (Deut. 7:7)
And we are later told in the Bible that the entire population of Israel was only 7,000 (1 Kings 20:15). What happened to the rest of the three million of “God’s chosen people” whom he was allegedly “blessing” during that time, and whose women were to “know no barrenness” (Deut 7:14)?
Two over-achieving midwives!
According to Exodus 1:15 there were only two Hebrew midwives.
Averaging the number of births in the 10 years leading up to the 3 million population gives us a Hebrew birthrate of 118,268 per year, or 324 per day, which is 13 per hour. If two midwives worked 12 hour shifts every day, they would have about 4 1/2 minutes per delivery (including travel time).
First-time deliveries typically take 8 hours. If the midwives only attended to first-time deliveries (letting the experienced take care of themselves) and only 1/4 of the women were first-time mothers, that would consume 648 hours per day, requiring a bare minimum of 54 midwives.
Of course, the “That doesn’t mean what it says” school of biblical interpretation will tell us that when the Bible indicates that there were only two midwives, it doesn’t mean midwives at all, but rather the leaders of the midwives’ union!
So maybe the real miracle here is that anyone believes the “that doesn’t mean what it says” interpretation.
Wrong-way infanticide.
Exodus relates that the Pharaoh told the midwives (and later his own people) to kill the Hebrew boys but keep the girls alive. (Ex. 1:16,22) When I was researching this article I wrote a simulation program to determine how the birth numbers could be arrived at by tweaking the parameters. One thing I experimented with was varying the ratio of male to female babies. I found that the 3 million could be reached within the 430 years by each woman giving birth to as few as 3 children–as long as two of the three were female (and the culture and economy permitted the average Joe to have two wives.) But, if the ratio were changed to two boys and one girl we ended up with a population of a mere 135 after 430 years!
What this drastic difference proves is that reducing the number of males has no appreciable effect on the population compared to reducing the number of females. (Think about it: 100 women and one man can have 100 pregnancies a year. But one woman and 100 men [or even 100,000 men] can only have one.)
This is why when infanticide is practiced the victims are universally female. The Egyptians weren’t idiots. If they were trying to curb the Hebrew population, and were willing to resort to this barbaric practice, then they would’ve drowned the girl babies, not the boys.
But, history shows that the Egyptians did not practice infanticide. The Bible’s account is a calumny against Egyptian morality as well as an insult to their intelligence — and ours.
An Egyptian Princess bathed in the Nile.
Why would a princess bathe in a river polluted by the putrefying corpses of slave babies? If the Egyptians were obeying Pharaoh’s order: “You are to throw every newborn son of the Hebrews into the Nile River” (Ex. 1:22) — an obedience that would be implied by Moses’ mother taking the drastic action of floating her baby down the river — then over a hundred male babies were being pitched into the Nile every day. It would be the last place on Earth a princess would choose to bathe in. Yet the Bible tells us that this is where she chose to bathe (Ex. 2:5). The men who wrote Exodus evidently knew little about women.
Men: try this little experiment in the cause of defending the Bible: next time your wife or lady-friend is taking one of those long luxurious bubble-baths, throw in some dead rats or mice, or whatever you have handy in the way of deceased animals. If she calmly continues her bath then the Bible is true. On second thought: don’t try this experiment at home if you value your dangly bits.
Take my jewelry: please!
According to Ex. 12:35-36 The weary Egyptians willingly gave the Hebrews their jewelry.
After having weathered all these plagues, and having their crops destroyed, their cattle killed, their water-supply polluted, their firstborn murdered: all supposedly by the Hebrew’s God, we are to believe that the Egyptians wished them well and gave them gifts of jewelry. “Oh, you’re leaving? My goodness, don’t go empty-handed. Even though our family is now destitute, and in desperate need of our few remaining resources to feed our surviving children, we really want you to have the gold chain that we were going to hand down to our firstborn daughter whom your god murdered in punishment for his forcing Pharaoh to not release you.”
Yeah, right.
Think rush hour traffic is bad today?
3 million slaves left Egypt in a single day, with enough provisions, cattle, firewood, and wealth to sustain them for 40 years in a barren wilderness. This despite the fact that they would’ve formed a column some sixty miles in length. If the leader began at 1:00 AM the one bringing up the rear would’ve taken his first step by 7:00 AM — 7:00 AM the following day (assuming no one stopped to rest during those first 30 hours — they were probably all wearing Depends.)
Impossible magic!
Jehovah is the creator, right? The only creator, right? And even though he “rested from all his works” on the seventh day (which Witnesses and others tell us still continues to this day) in one of his plagues on Egypt he created enough frogs on the spot to “cover the land.” That’s the first contradiction miracle. But, we are told, Pharaoh’s magicians then “did the same thing.” (Ex. 8:6-7) The Watchtower tells us that magic comes from Satan. So, evidently Jehovah is not the only creator: Satan created frogs too. (But here’s another hidden miracle: since there were already frogs “covering the land” they couldn’t tell which frogs were the magicians’ frogs without a divine revelation.)
Even though the Watchtower tells us that blood is so sacred that it scares Jehovah’s Witnesses into refusing life-saving transfusions (because supposedly “the life is in the blood” Lev. 17:10-11), Jehovah turned all the water in Egypt into blood. So then, all the water had life in it (another case of creating life on the “seventh day.”) Then no one could drink it without violating the “everlasting covenant.” Without another hidden miracle the Hebrews would’ve died of dehydration within a few days. But here’s another impossible “miracle”: we are told that Pharaoh’s magicians once again “did the same thing.” (Ex. 7:19-22) But “doing the same thing” would’ve required them to turn water into blood when there was no water; it had already all been turned to blood. (Similar to how Jehovah killed all the firstborn cattle in the tenth plague after he had already killed all of the cattle in the fifth plague Ex. 9:1-7; 12:29.)
These are the sorts of mistakes that story-tellers commit when they are making things up. Even if you somehow claim to believe in miracles, and even if you somehow believe that “with God all things are possible,” the above tales are still not possible and cannot be believed without surrendering your reason.
Jehovah does not cause anyone to sin, right? If people sin it’s their own fault, right?
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
–James 1:13-15 (NIV)
Going against God’s will is a sin, right? Okay, so God’s will was to release the Hebrews from bondage in Egypt. Pharaoh had agreed to let them go (Ex. 12:30-32), and in fact, they were on their way when we read:
And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.
–Ex. 14:4
So, according to Exodus, Jehovah forced Pharaoh to sin. But he didn’t stop with Pharaoh. The Bible tells us that the Egyptian soldiers evidently did not want to pursue the Hebrews into the bloody Red Sea (on horses that had all been killed in the fifth plague Ex. 9:1-7), but Jehovah forced them against their will so he could kill them and bask in the glory that he evidently felt attaches itself to mass-murderers:
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
–Ex. 14:17 (NIV)

Absent Evidence
Bible-defenders are fond of quoting the adage: “Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.” But oftentimes it is. Let’s take an example: A schoolchild, prone to playing hooky, tells his mother that he attended school that day. But when the mother calls the school principal he tells her that none of the teachers saw him that day, and he was not checked off on the attendance sheet. That absence of evidence is very good evidence of absence.
Even Jewish scholars have admitted that the entire Egyptian bondage story is not literal history, but rather a made-up story designed to give them a distinctive identity from the other Canaanite tribes of which they were a part (see Did the Exodus Really Happen? by Rabbi David Wolpe), and to attempt to make Yahweh seem something other than the Canaanite god that he was (see Yahweh: Canaanite Deity on Wikipedia.)
There is no evidence to indicate there was ever a massive Hebrew population in Egypt. There is no evidence that the Egyptians engaged in massive slavery within their borders. There is no evidence that the Egyptian culture approved of infanticide. There is no evidence of millions of people emigrating en masse from Egypt into the Sinai desert. (The borders of Egypt were well guarded and logs were kept of all movement in and out: but no mention of the 3 million.) There is no evidence of human habitation in the area of Kadesh-barnea during the period when the Bible tells us the Hebrews spent 38 of their 40 “wandering” years after leaving Egypt.
Many of the Canaanite kingdoms mentioned in the Pentateuch are known to have been unpopulated at that time. For instance: there was no kingdom of Edom at that time for Moses to ask permission of its king to pass through his land, nor was there any kingdom of Arad to attack them (Num. 20:14-21; 21:1).
What Exodus describes is a Canaan of the seventh century BCE (when the story was written) rather than the time period it alleges to relate (at least half a millennia earlier.) It would be as if I were telling you a story about the Crusaders and I described how in their journey to the “holy land” they stopped to refresh themselves at McDonalds.
The absent evidence cannot be explained (as it typically is by believers) by saying that the Egyptians were just too embarrassed to write about their butts getting kicked by the Hebrews. We’re not just talking about written Egyptian historical records here. We’re talking about artifacts. People don’t live in a country for over two centuries without leaving a trace. You can’t take 3 million people and march them through a desert for 40 years without leaving a trace. It’s impossible (or, if you prefer: an unadvertised, inadvertent “miracle.”)
Repeated archaeological surveys in all regions of the peninsula, including the mountainous area around the traditional site of Mount Sinai… have yielded only negative evidence: not even a single sherd, no structure, not a single house, no trace of an ancient encampment…
The conclusion — that the Exodus did not happen at the time and in the manner described in the Bible — seems irrefutable when we examine the evidence at specific sites where the children of Israel were said to have camped for extended periods during their wandering in the desert (Numbers 33) and where some archaeological indication — if present — would almost certainly be found.
– The Bible Unearthed, p. 62-63 (Simon & Schuster, 2001) by Israel Finklestein (Director, Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (Director, historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium; and Contributing Editor, Archaeology magazine)
So now you know: just like the “slaughter of the innocents,” the Exodus is another incident in the Bible that never happened.

Tags: Bible, Exodus, miracles, Moses

    
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grovegirl • a month ago− + ⚑I was born in and lived it all, believed it all. It was killing me mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I just couldn't do it any more. I stop attending meetings to save my life. That was 8 years ago, and only recently have I felt strong enough to address the issues I have with this religion.
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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten Mod >grovegirl • a month ago− + ⚑Thanks for commenting. Would you care to share why it was killing you mentally, emotionally and spiritually?
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Nicolaou • a month ago− + ⚑As a loyal dub for thirty years I tried to help a close friend who was having doubts. It was the first time I'd done honest, independent research. What I learned hurt and shocked me but my exit became inevitable. I left within a year.
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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten Mod >Nicolaou • a month ago− + ⚑Thanks for sharing mate.
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Gail allen • a month ago− + ⚑I am a third generation born in, as you can imagine I was completely indoctrinated and knew nothing else, I was very sheltered by my parents, I married in the truth and had three children. My son came out as gay when he was eighteen, so I had to make a choice and I chose my son, it was an easy decision.
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William • a month ago− + ⚑I have never been one, but would not join to begin with because it is not biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity, but a pseudo-Christian mind control cult. My sympathy for those who have been hurt by religion instead of helped by a true relationship with Christ.
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Andres Torres • a month ago− + ⚑I felt that we were too petty, too judgmental, too ready to condemn outsiders. I felt that the blood policy was dangerous, as were our views on homosexuality.
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Calirn • 11 days ago− + ⚑I was born as a Jw. First time writing down my experience. Just celebrated my first Christmas, mostly did it for my kids, i want them to have a better childhood than I did. I agree with many that there is a lot of pretend love in the organization. I realized that the organization does not offer any alternative activities for youth when they discourage after school activities, sports, and holidays. As a nurse I've seen a JW die cause she refused blood, I won't let that happen to my kids.
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Leaving The Jehovah's Witnesses » What made you leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
What made you leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Submitted by Teeny on December 25, 2013 - 12:11 pm 8 Comments
An image of the Watchtower logo that seems to have caught fire.What made you stop going to the meetings and inevitably no longer want to be called a Jehovah’s Witness?
Something triggered your want to leave the Watchtower Society and I think it’s a good idea to gage the reasons, plus it’ll help us with our upcoming articles on leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Only one of the answers can be selected. If you have other reasons for leaving and would like to share them with us, please do so in the comments section.
Why did you leave the Jehovah's Witnesses?
I realised this wasn't "the truth" because there was no love amongst the brothers and sisters
I woke up when I realised all the hypocrisy that's going on
I was mentally/sexually abused and that drove me out
I stumbled on some apostate websites and realised the Jehovah's Witnesses were a cult
I realised there is no god
The change in the "Generation" teaching put me on a path to leaving
The change to the Blood doctrine was the final straw for me
I learned the truth about the Society's involvement with the United Nations
I was a born in / joined when I was a child and I never really grasped the religion and so left
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Arno du Toit: @noble et al: It has always been an enigma for me (even while active in the Society) WHY there are... Arno du Toit: Believe it or not, but it was this very same Proclaimers Book that helped me getting OUT of the Society... Alex James: Elders put her in the preaching work with a man that they knew had fondled his own stepdaughter but they... Andres Torres: This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said. Andres Torres: They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It’s like Marley said... Featured Articles
Diary of an Armageddon Survivor
Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake?
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William • a month ago − + ⚑Hello, Pope! Jesus is Jehovah, the biblical, historical, orthodox view. Cults and false religions deny this truth. He has the names, titles, attributes, deeds, position, etc. of YHWH. He claimed to be God and is the I AM (Jehovahistic identity), Alpha and Omega, God, LORD, etc. The Jews understood this, but rejected it. You guys do not understand it, but also reject it. He is worthy of worship and was worshipped, something reserved for God alone. http://www.amazon.com/Putting-...
Jesus is not Michael. JWs and SDAs are wrong (see Jude 9).
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smmcroberts >William • a month ago − + ⚑William,
If you keep saying something over and over long enough does that make it become true?
What do you mean by the "historical view"? First century Christians had diverse views about Jesus. Many of them thought that Jesus was definitely NOT Jehovah. The controversy raged for centuries until the council of Nicaea in the fourth century. But the winners write history, and tend to gloss over the opposition.
I'll agree that yours is the "orthodox view" but why should that carry any weight? Do you think your Jesus said to follow the crowd and go along with established beliefs, or did he say to decide for yourself what was right?
Whether yours is the "biblical view" is highly debatable, as I've shown in the detailed debate in chapter five of my book: http://smmcroberts.net/religio...
There have been believers on both sides of this for nearly two thousand years. I can't believe that all the good people were on one side and all of the "deceived by Satan" were on the other. Rather, what it says to me is that the Bible is a contradictory mess that even sincere believers can't sort out. You can't extract a clear message from it because it was written by men with differing ideas.
So, it's not fair to say that those who disagree with "Jesus is Jehovah" do so because "they don't understand." I for one DO understand exactly why you think J is J. I also understand why Witnesses and others think that J is not J. And I'm content to point out the flaws on both sides, because the Bible will not fully support either side. If J is J, then he has bipolar disorder, as I've pointed out above. If J is not J then how do you explain how the Bible assigns him "the names, titles, attributes, deeds, position, etc. of YHWH." Neither side can adequately answer these issues.
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William >smmcroberts • a month ago − + ⚑The hallmark of the early church was to worship Jesus as God, not Caesar (hence killing of Christians). They had a pre-theoretical understanding of the triune God. Arianism (JW view) came later in church history necessitating formal responses in the creeds (same with Sabellianism): That just isn’t how the history goes, though. The apostle Paul, for example, didn’t show any sign of struggle to confess “that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:11). You don’t see a cloudy ignorance of the Father, Son and Spirit in A.D. 50 which is all cleared up by A.D. 500. And while later church theologians would use philosophical terms and words not seen in the Bible (like Trinity), they were not trying to add to God’s revelation of himself, as if Scripture were insufficient; they were trying to express the truth of who God is as revealed in Scripture. Particularly, they were trying to articulate Scripture’s message in the face of those who were distorting it in one way or another—and for each new distortion a new language of response was needed. "Delighting in the Trinity: An Introduction to the Christian Faith" Michael Reeves
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Steve >William • a month ago − + ⚑That's nice, William. But I can quote numerous scholars amongst whom the consensus is that the first century Christians believed Jesus to be a high-ranking angel, and definitely NOT YHWH. Some held that Christ was strictly spiritual and had never come to Earth in the flesh. Your Bible shows evidence of this latter common belief in 1 John 4:1-3 where readers were warned against those who deny that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh." More evidence is to be found in the many other "gospels" of the time that didn't get voted into the canon. But your church probably never tells you about those. Instead they spin history to marginalize their early rivals as "heretics" while they depict their own view as the "right" one from the start.
Saying that "Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God" does not indicate to me that the writer was claiming that Jesus was God. Lord? Yes. God? No indication, though there does appear to be a distinction being made between them here. Of course you'll argue that the distinction is between Jesus as God the Son and God the father, and of course in its ambiguity it could be taken that way. Is that the way the writer intended to be understood? Who knows? Not you or I: only Paul.
I could counter that scripture with Galatians 4:14 in which Paul refers to Jesus an an angel: "...you received me as an angel of God, as Jesus Christ." And yes, I know how you'll explain that away as easily as a non-trinitarian will explain away Phil 2:11. And so it goes in this endless debate which will never have a clear winner.
If there were a clear indication one way or the other in the Bible, with no counter-indications, then this point would not have been in dispute all these centuries by sincere seekers of truth.
But why should we take letters written by a man who struck people blind and returned an escaped slave to his "master" as if what he wrote could possibly contain the truth about God? Paul was just a man, and therefore he knew exactly as much about the nature of God as you and I do: nadda.
In the end, I really don't care if some Christians thought Jesus was YHWH and some didn't back in the first century. It should come as no great surprise; the same dispute raged in the second and third centuries, and it's the same today: with each side still calling the other deceived. (And all of them basing their arguments on writings authored by men who couldn't have had a clue about the unknowable realm of spirit beings.)
What I DO care about is the fact that there are insurmountable problems on both sides. As for your side: you need to explain how an Attila-like personality can be a Schweitzer-like personality without having serious mental problems. Until you can do that, the notion that Jesus is the ancient war god of the Hebrews will remain ludicrous.
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William >Steve • a month ago − + ⚑OT verses about YHWH are applied to Jesus in Romans, Phil., Hebrews, etc. There are pseudo-scholars WT quotes and misquotes who can be refutes. Early Church Fathers are also not inspired, infallible. Angel can mean angel or messenger. THE Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Christ and the contexts He appears in affirm Him as YHWH/Deity. Other angels are created beings. Paul is not saying Jesus is an angel. Angel and Jesus are different categories even in this verse (Jn., Col, Heb. shows that Jesus is superior to angels because He created them as uncreated Creator).
Atheists and JWs trying to do theology is always a fiasco. If you cannot even believe the existence of God (Gen. 1:1), these other debates are a waste of time.
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Steve >William • a month ago − + ⚑William,
You are correct that the WT misquotes scholars to its own ends and represents people as "scholars" whom no one else would accord that title.
I just want to make it clear that nothing I've written in these blogs or in reply to you has relied on any WT quotes. I learned not to trust anything published by the WT long ago.
I have learned my history from purely secular sources and college professors who have no religious ax to grind. I would particularly recommend to you the works of Bart Ehrman and G. A. Wells for starters.
I just took a volume from my library entitled Encyclopedia of Heresies and Heretics by Chas. S. Clifton (1992). In the introduction he quotes historian Walter Bauer: "The multiplicity of competing statements of faith regarding the 'saving event' of Jesus Christ and its theological explanation show ever more clearly that at the beginning of the church's history neither heresy nor orthodoxy was sharply defined or patent: both were concepts developed later."
In his entry on Docetism (the belief that Jesus was not flesh and blood) he relates that Simon Mangus was the first on record to hold this belief, and he is mentioned in the canonical book of Acts. In fact the first creed developed by the orthodox branch was to combat Docetism: that was formulated by Ignatius between 98-117 CE. This shows that there were differing notions about Christianity from as early as we can trace: at least as early as the writing of the NT.
Once the Roman government got involved (forming the Roman Catholic Church) what we now know as the "orthodox" view of Christianity was enforced, and "gospels" that tended to conform most closely with that view were the ones voted into the canon. But might does not make right.
Again, it's not my intention to pose as an expert on what people thought and believed in the first century.(Nor do I much care.) I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of apparently objective secular sources which indicate that the views at that time were diverse. And I wanted to respond to the implicit charge that I was relying on WT quotes: which is a calumny.
Back on topic: I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the "prince of peace" could be "Jehovah of armies." Whatever scripture comparisons you can come up with to tie the two together, their opposing personalities will always rend them asunder.
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William >Steve • a month ago − + ⚑Is. 9:6 and Is. 10:21 shows that the Messiah is Deity. WT rationalizations don't change the fact. Bart Ehrman is refuted by renowned textual criticism experts like Daniel Wallace. He is an agnostic ? atheist, not a biblical scholar. His ideas can be refuted, so I would not hitch my wagon to him.
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Steve >William • a month ago − + ⚑William,
In the first place, Isaiah was a false prophet, as I've shown in previous blogs. 9:6 says that someone's son will be born and have the "government rest on his shoulders" and the next verse says:
"of His government and peace There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.rule over Israel from that time forward."
Jesus never took over the government, nor has there been "peace from that time forward." Since this prophecy failed I wouldn't hitch my wagon to Isaiah either.
Yes, Bart Ehrman is a biblical scholar. I don't know if he's an atheist or agnostic, but he appears more objective and trustworthy than those who actually claim to believe in the contradictory nonsense that the Bible consists of. That he has been "refuted" is a matter of opinion.
I've already pointed out where your Bible itself indicates non-orthodox views were prevalent enough in the early days of Christianity. So that can't be "refuted" without refuting the Bible itself. We have artifacts of many other gospels from the same time period in which Christ is not equated with YHWH. This is the evidence. Wallace disagreeing with Ehrman doesn't make that evidence magically disappear.
Again: none of what I am saying relies on or even gives a thought to WT rationalizations. The WT would not agree with what I'm saying: they would agree with YOU that Christianity was pure in the first century, but they would claim the "true Christians" believed as the Witnesses do today, and that Christianity was later corrupted by the Catholic Church and the Great Apostasy when they mixed in the pagan ideas of the Trinity and immortal souls and hell-fire. But this is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying Christianity arose out of paganism and its dying and reviving gods. There were many differing ideas: none more "right" than another since no one can know the unknowable realm of spirit beings.
But once again you are derailing the point of this blog: Tell me how Shweitzer-like Jesus can be Attila-like YHWH. The rest is irrelevant.
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William >Steve • a month ago − + ⚑The problem is with your inaccurate interpretations, not with Isaiah (true prophet), etc. Your head and heart are hard.
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Steve >William • a month ago − + ⚑Well, William, your Bible claims that its God hardens people's hearts, so if I really have a hard heart maybe it's your god that's to blame.
But seriously, William, if Isaiah made a prophecy that failed, then I don't think it has anything to do with my supposedly hard head and heart.
I didn't interpret what he wrote, I merely quoted it. You'd have to put a "spiritual interpretation" on his prophecy in order to try and salvage it. If you just take what he wrote as-is without forcing a latter-day interpretation upon it, then it was clearly a failed prophecy.
And 9:6-7 is not the only prophecy he made that failed, as I pointed out here: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog...
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William >Steve • a month ago − + ⚑God does not arbitrarily harden hearts. Pharaoh hardened his own heart first before God further judicially hardened it. Calvinism is wrong to teach double predestination, etc. I am an Open Theist. Prophecy is not always predictive. It can be illustrative, declarative, conditional, etc. Just because you misunderstand things does not mean there is not sound theology/exegesis. Few JWs know theology/Bible, just WT indoctrination. Former JWs who are atheists probably have even less light on biblical matters. JWs quote verses out of context, read ideas into them (eisegesis), etc. We all interpret, not just quote. The translation must be accurate, the grammar, context, culture, historical setting, etc. must be considered in interpretation/application, etc.
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Steve >William • a month ago − + ⚑Sorry, William; I thought you believed what the Bible actually says. Now I see you are a member of that grand school of biblical interpretation that can be summed up as “That doesn’t mean what it says.” This school then goes on to tell us exactly what THEY think it means as if it were God’s Truth which they had some monopoly on, and as if they had a pipeline to the unknowable. Most ex-Witnesses have been bitten by that sort of holier-than-thou presumption enough to yell foul when they hear it from another quarter.
Many ex-Witnesses begin an intensive study of the Bible after leaving, in order to determine for themselves what is true. That’s why many become atheists: they have read the Bible objectively, taking it for what it actually says rather than what others want to convince them that it “really means.”
You say God doesn’t harden hearts unless they’re already hardened. How do you know that? Are you privy to god’s Rules of Conduct for Deities?
Let’s see what the Bible itself has to say on this (rather than William’s interpretation). It repeatedly tells us that its god had to interfere with Pharaoh’s freewill in order to justify god’s killing more Egyptians, and he declared that these mass murders would somehow serve to “glorify” himself.
After miraculously parting the Red Sea for the Israelites, the Egyptian soldiers were evidently (and understandably) reluctant to pursue them into a watery grave. So what does the Bible tell us god did? “I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them.” (Ex. 14:17)
Now, do you claim to have esoteric knowledge of the relative hardness of each and every one of his soldiers’ hearts, so that you can say that every last one of them already had a hard heart? Remarkable!
So I guess you’re saying that your god is okay with deliberately making bad people worse, but draws the line on making good people believers even though that might allow them to escape eternal torment at his hands. And you’re okay with worshiping such a god! Fine for you, I guess, but please count me out.
Finally: you said: “Just because you misunderstand things does not mean there is not sound theology/exegesis.” I agree. The reason there is not sound theology has nothing to do with my misunderstanding things; it has to do with the limits of human understanding: it has to do with the fact that no one knows the unknowable (no matter how much they may pretend to.)
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William >Steve • a month ago − + ⚑I fully believe what the Bible says, not specious interpretations by those who reject it as inspired?! Wooden literalism is not always right nor is highly figurative/allegorical (context determines genre). WT interpretations of the Bible are often sectarian, proof texted, wrong. JWs do not learn to exegete, just parrot what the bad research of the writing dept. comes up with. They have to believe wrong interpretations until new light comes (stupid). God can work providentially with men's choices, but he does not interfere with issues relating to eternal destiny (Calvinism/Islam are wrong).
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Steve >William • 24 days ago − + ⚑William,
It's not possible to "fully believe what the Bible says" without resorting to "specious interpretations."
The specious interpretation that works best is the one that begins "That doesn't mean what it says."
So, if you claim to fully believe what the Bible says, answer me this: was Adam created after the other animals (as Gen 1 says) or before them (as Gen 2 says.)
Christian apologetic will answer this by saying that Gen 2 does not mean what it says when it says Adam was created before the animals, because chapter two is not meant to be chronological (despite it starting off saying: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created" and then proceeding to relate the events in the order the writer obviously thought they occurred.)
This is only one example of hundreds of contradictions in the Bible that cannot be harmonized unless we resort to "that doesn't mean what it says."
http://smmcroberts.net/religio...
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William >Steve • 24 days ago − + ⚑I believe the alleged/apparent contradictions of skeptics have been answered credibly for the most part. Regardless of these things, does the existence of God, creation, fall, redemption, consummation, etc. have truth value? If you think you can dismiss God/Jesus, etc. over Gen. 1-2, you are wrong. Your Adam issue is lame and not even a biggie. Textual criticism (vs variants, translation issues, etc.), hermeneutics, exegesis, etc. resolve most issues (disciplines JWs were never taught because WT lacks credible scholarship/training themselves...they are just good at misquoting true authorities to try to find support for their errors): http://www.icr.org/article/339...
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Steve >William • 23 days ago − + ⚑William,
I DON'T believe that the contradictions of the Bible have been answered credibly. Your link is a prime example of the sophistry and outright lies used by Christian apologists to try to wiggle out of the embarrassment which is the Bible. [The statement that carnivores can live on a vegetarian diet is one of the lies in that link. The denial of the "chain of life" is another, and ranks as one of the most ridiculous statements I've encountered in quite a while. It sounds like the author has had his head buried in his Bible for so long that he's forgotten what the real world looks like.]
I don't understand why you keep mentioning Textual Criticism. Textual Criticism shows that the first two chapters of Genesis are two separate accounts by different authors which an editor patched together. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...
How can this possibly lead you to believe that it was all written by an inspired Moses?
Your Bible states that it is revealed to the "unlettered and ordinary" people: not people who have to suffer through your "hermeneutics" and "exegesis" to the point where they can understand that (quoting from your link): "By replacing the past tense ("formed") by the pluperfect ("had formed")
in Genesis 2:19, one can read the verse as follows: "And out of the
ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field...."
For centuries the King James Bible was the Protestant standard: written in such a way that Genesis 2 shows a chronological progression. If it was god's inspired Word why would he ever have allowed it to have been translated this way and supposedly mislead people for centuries? If it was the word of god then I think it's reasonable to expect god to ensure that it was properly translated. If it wasn't properly translated for the common man to comprehend, then it's obviously not the word of any god who gives a hoot about it.
I don't "dismiss God/Jesus" over Gen. 1-2; I dismiss them in their entirety just as I dismiss the Tales From the Arabian Nights as inventive fiction.
The whole "Jesus is YHWH" thing has not been addressed by you in any of these many comments of yours: they have all been mere digressions. Try harmonizing these two opposing personalities instead of pleading the lost cause of the Bible. Otherwise we'll conclude that you simply can't, and this blog article will continue to stand unchallenged.
In the meantime, here's a much more fun exegesis of Genesis chapter two:
http://smmcroberts.net/blog/di...
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Steve >William • a month ago − + ⚑I agree with you William: they are a waste of time.
I'll even go you one better: ANYONE trying to do theology is always a fiasco. It wasn't just the early church fathers who weren't inspired or infallible; this was also the case with Paul and the anonymous writers of the gospels.
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William >Steve • a month ago − + ⚑We know the writers of the Gospels, but Old Testament books are less clear. Theology is the study of God and His ways. We have revelation and reason to have a solid vs stupid theology. Paul was inspired, as were the other writers of Scripture. Saying they were not is not evidence based.
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Steve >William • a month ago − + ⚑William,
Once again: Saying things over and over does not make them true.
We do NOT know who wrote the gospels. They are anonymous works later attributed to "apostles" by people who wouldn't have had a clue.
Revelation is not reliable. That was the point of my previous blog about the unknowable. Where does revelation come from? MEN. Do men lie? Are they ever mistaken? Are they easily fooled?
We can now induce visions by electrical stimulation of the brain. Sometimes this happens "naturally" when the brain goes haywire. Should we trust the thoughts that occur during such episodes as "revelation from God"? I don't think so.
Men do not know the unknowable: never have, and never will. What passes for "revelations" contradict each other. So they are unreliable. ALL we are left with is reason.
Reason tells me that dead people don't come back to life after three days in the grave. It tells me that people can't walk on the surface of water unless it's frozen. It tells me that you can't "ascend into heaven" and disappear. It also tells me that if these incidents ever did occur then someone would have reported on them at the time. Since no one did report on them at the time, reason tells me that such incidents did not occur. Since the Bible claims that they DID occur, reason tells me that the Bible is not true.
You say Paul and others were "inspired" and that my saying that they were not inspired is "not evidence based"! I don't have to provide evidence that someone was NOT inspired by God. That someone WAS inspired is an extraordinary claim that requires evidence in support of IT. (i.e. the burden of proof lies with you.)
Since Paul never met Jesus, and couldn't even get his story straight about his vision (there being 3 contradictory accounts of it in the Bible) and since he admitted to stooping to dishonesty (becoming a Jew to Jews and a Gentile to Gentiles, etc.), and since he did immoral acts (such as sending an escaped slave back to his "master" and striking a man blind for having the sense to disagree with him) I'd say that reason leads us to conclude that Paul was not inspired by god.
So now, please tell me how a Schweitzer-like person can be an Attila-like person, so we can add one more absurdity to the list.
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » Albert Schweitzer is Attila the Hun
Albert Schweitzer is Attila the Hun
Submitted by Steve on December 17, 2013 - 6:30 pm 19 Comments
Albert Schweitzer is Attila the HunFor those who may not know: Albert Schweitzer (1875-1965) was a humanitarian who worked as a doctor in Africa. He was a pacifist and his philosophy of “reverence for life” made him an advocate for non-human animals’ rights as well.
Attila the Hun (406-453) was one of the most feared warriors in history due to his legendary cruel savagery in dispatching his enemies. Though much of this may have been Roman propaganda, “reverence for life” was not high on his priority list.
But did you know that Albert Schweitzer is Attila the Hun? You didn’t? Well, neither did I. I’ll confess that I just made it up. But I did so to make a point.
Saying that Albert Schweitzer is Attila the Hun is just as ludicrous as saying that Jesus is YHWH (i.e. “Jehovah” the God of the Hebrew Scriptures.)
Believe it or not, this is a claim made by many Christians (but, to their credit, not by Jehovah’s Witnesses — though that doesn’t completely get them off the hook, as we’ll see in a bit.)
Why do I say that this is a ludicrous claim? Simply because of what the Bible itself says about these two characters: YHWH (aka Jehovah) and Yeshua (aka Jesus). If they were the same person then this person would suffer from bipolar disorder (aka a split-personality), because seldom were two personalities more opposite in nature than these two.
But let’s humor these Christians for a moment and examine the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde aspects of this conglomerate person (whom we’ll call Jesovah [geez-oh-vah, rhyming with cheese-sofa], following in the time-honored tradition of men making up names for deities [as well as making up the deities themselves] as they saw fit.)
In a prior article I provided a comparison chart of these characteristics (which is a good place to look if you want all of the scriptural citations), but we’ll take a prose approach here.
Yeshua
First up is Yeshua/Jesus: the Dr. Jekyll or Albert Schweitzer personality. This personality is represented in the Bible as a pacifist: instructing people to lay down their swords and forgive one another. He advocates non-confrontation even to the point of foregoing one’s rights and suffering abuse rather than defending oneself — even to the exclusion of the nonviolent, legal means of the courts. He tells us that he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. He shows compassion for animals, stating that each individual sparrow has value. He loves children, encouraging their presence, and admonishes his followers to become like them. He tells us that love is the most important thing.
YHWH
Contrast this with the YHWH/Jehovah personality (the Mr. Hyde or Attila persona.) This personality punishes those who “hold back the sword from bloodshed.” He orders massive slaughter of both human and non-human animals (setting up elaborate ritual sacrifices of the latter to appease his desire to smell their burning flesh.) He sends bears to rip apart children and orders his armies to kill them (even to the point of having them run their swords through the bellies of pregnant women.) Far from giving up their rights in order to avoid confrontation, he drives his people to commit genocide in dealing with the inhabitants of the land they are invading (which the Hebrews believe they have a claim upon simply because a handful of their ancestors lived there four centuries previous.) He not only advocates killing one’s enemies, he assists in the slaughter by: hurling boulders; lengthening the day; sending fire from heaven; interfering with freewill to “harden” their enemies hearts in order to “justify” killing their firstborn of both human and non-human animals; and miraculously drowning all of their soldiers. Instead of embracing children and accepting them as they are (curious, innocent, naive questioners who can bring a fresh perspective by rebelliously challenging the status quo) this personality orders sassy children to be stoned to death by their parents, gives captured virgin girls over to soldiers as sex slaves, and even purposely puts them on the menu in at least one case.
Conclusion
If Jesus is Jehovah then I’m the Pope.
But we can’t let our dear Witness friends leave without a word or two in their direction. Why do you think that other Christians believe the “Jesus is Jehovah” nonsense? Well, it’s because according to the Bible Jesus is said to possess attributes or titles that only Jehovah qualifies for. Now, you can argue (as you do) that similarities do not make two people the same person. But then you’ll need to throw out your dogma of “Jesus is Michael” because it rests on that very same premise.

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William • a month ago − + ⚑Physical things are known or apprehended with our senses. Spiritual issues, including God, angels, demons, etc. are not known through raw reason, but by revelation. If there is a God (and there is), He can make Himself known through creation, Christ, Word of God (Bible), conscience. He can come into space-time history as Christ, the God-Man, and reveal things, the invisible made visible. His resurrection is historical, not myth. If one begs the question and assumes there is no God, no spiritual reality, then a materialistic worldview precludes things outside of the 5 senses. If there is spiritual reality, then we need revelation in addition to reason. We cannot know God, spiritual reality exhaustively, but that does not mean we cannot know Him, know about spiritual reality, etc. If Jesus is YHWH (and He is), then His word about Satan, the Father, heaven/hell, etc. is trustworthy/revelatory. Anti-supernatural bias precludes miracles. If there is a God, then miracles are possible. C.S. Lewis argues cogently about this. "He is there and He is not silent"- Francis Schaeffer.
Merry Christmas. I hope former JWs feel free to celebrate it culturally even if they do not believe the reason for the season, the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings, Lord of lords, I AM, Alpha and Omega, God.
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Kimbal Summers >William • a month ago − + ⚑About God’s claim to be Unknowable !
In line with the topic - what’s the point of having a real relationship with God who is unknowable ? It's a PARADOX !
Just as God knows scripture, so does his Accuser. Quoting back God's own words he states in Isaiah 1;18 - "Come let us reason together says the Lord" - while he also says in another text - " As iron sharpens
iron, so one man sharpens another." ( Proverbs 27:17 )
Putting such in to practice right here, the having any sort of relationship with God is like trying to catch one's own shadow. Such a relationship is no more than a mere chasing after the wind.
What's more - God is liar - and is very knowable.
A simple proof is the following: - The small 3 lettered word - GOD - is the old English word meaning "GOOD". Therefore God is GOOD, and not bad; - and if that is true then he is quite knowable as a result.
We now have learnt and therefore KNOW he is good.
If we now KNOW he is unknowable, then we now have become aware of a second detail about him, which is - he is unknowable. Again another PARADOX. ( How can you be aware of something that is unknowable ? If your aware of it then you also know it. )
Or is he just claiming to be unknowable in order to hide his real identity ?
Let's see if this is so !
As we now know and have become aware of 2 things about him. So our
consciousness of him has since expanded; then we can truly say "we know 2 things more about God " than before you started reading this anti-god blog.
He is therefore technically knowable by 0.00000000000000000000001% and therefore we can conclude he is a blatant liar about his true nature, because we have discovered something about him - though minor - and yet he told us he is unknowable. Maybe God does not know himself. And did not Jesus say “Know thyself and you will know God !” So if he is unknowable, then we can’t find out about ourselves which is actually far easier.
If God does not know himself then he can’t be himself, which is God. Like father - like Son - If God is liar, then Jesus words “ Know thyself and you will know God” is also a lie.
Now we know he is a blatant liar about his own nature; we have now learn't and become aware of a 3rd detail about GOD. This now means our consciousness and understanding of him has expanded again by reading this one short sentence.
This being so, has now illustrated he is technically corrupt and therefore not 100% good.
By this reasoning we now learn if he is not 100% good, he is partly bad even if only by 0.00000000000000000000001% - which means he is technically imperfect and capable of sin.
By this logic, if he is capable of sin, then he is not 100% good and there fore has no right to call himself "GOD" because we learnt earlier that the
word God means "GOOD".
So he is now been found out to be a bad god - and in saying that, is not worth worshiping. ( how to win friends and influence people by claiming your UNKNOWABLE. That just leaves one with egg on their face !)
This again proves GOD is deceiving us when he says "Satan is the father of all lies"; because as we know he has also told a lie even if it is only
just one small white lie, it technically is a LIE.
A LIE is a LIE - yet he says in Hebrews 6:18 that we can be encouraged to know of 2 unchangeable things that being it's impossible for him to lie. This also is another 2nd lie, as he told the 1st lie of being unknowable.
( "Gee his case is not looking good in the heavenly court room " says
his accuser Satan. Its no wonder a third of the Angels left to support Satan's role as the true Luciferian Light Bringer. Some Angels became mentally illumined about Gods real nature and woke up realizing he was not so Mysterious after all. That he was believed to be "SHIT HOT" but as the delusion slowly faded, he became more like "hot shit" and was no more mortal than them.
In that case, it makes " Mr Holier Than Thou " as bad as Satan, as
they are both seen by the unbelievers as liars. )
So know we know also GOD is cold hard hypocrite who will put his words in writing to convince the majority he is both UNKNOWABLE and the REAL TRUTH TELLER ".
( Gee his plight keeps getting worse and worse as every time he open his mouth, his tongue condemns him ! )
But let's be realistic - has Satan ever declared he is unknowable ? - of course not ! We all know he doesn't need to make such a claim, as he has nothing to prove. In fact, Satan wants us all to know him. He illustrated this when he told eve to eat of the tree of Knowledge and have our eyes opened to discern good from bad. I think here such discernment has certainly been at work.
Satan voiced the reality of truth in Genesis 3 when he stated to Eve that
"she would not die in the day of eating of the fruit ".And how many
hundreds of years did she live ?
So we know from this case, Satan is the real truth teller and God is the real liar - yet if we believe the bullshit God feeds us, he states "Satan is
the father of lies, and that he is the real God of truth".
If this is not scam on the human mind, I don't know what is !
So in conclusion - my intelligence and logic tells me "God is as corrupt
as the Devil he created and this is blatant case of "the pot calling the
kettle black" in the very technical sense.
As a result if he is like this - he can’t be God - he is a fraud ! - Point made.
This mental reasoning I am using is not my fault - it's God’s fault - because he designed my brain to work at this human level. He also states in Isaiah 45;7: -
7 I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and
sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
( Translation > Bible in basic english )
So in my honest opinion God deserves what he gets, since his own written word condemns him.
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smmcroberts >Kimbal Summers • a month ago − + ⚑Thanks for another hilarious comment, Kimbal!
If I'm "Channeling Dawkins" you must be channeling Aquinas (or, more likely: Smullyan: the master of paradox puzzles -- though I'm not sure if you're supposed to channel people who are still alive)!
One thing is for certain: the God of the Hebrew Scriptures was a liar. He even admitted to sending a "lying spirit" to fool all the prophets into false prophesying (1Ki 22:22)! That should be enough for us all to take what the "prophets" have written with a large grain of salt.
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Kimbal Summers >smmcroberts • a month ago − + ⚑So in what way is my comment so hilarious ? as I take what I say seriously - unless otherwise stated..
I wasn't claiming to channel anyone; so how you came to that conclusion is beyond me..
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smmcroberts >Kimbal Summers • a month ago − + ⚑I apologize, Kimbal. I found your logic to be so full of holes that I sincerely thought you were joking, and were sharing in the laughter.
An example: "The small 3 lettered word - GOD - is the old English word meaning "GOOD". Therefore God is GOOD, and not bad; - and if that is true then he is quite knowable as a result." Personally, I find that hilarious: a sort of parody of the style of Aquinas. But if you meant it as a serious argument, I wonder that you don't see any gap in that logic.
It's equivalent to something a householder said to me out in field-service once: "God is just dog backwards, and who wants to worship a dog?" I found that a ludicrous argument, though I think she meant it seriously as well.
I realize you didn't mention channeling. That was a joke of Williams, and I was just seeing how far we could stretch it.
I still suspect that you're joking around, but if you want me to take your comments seriously I will try to do that henceforth. But I can't help it if what you write continues to tickle my funny-bone.
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William >smmcroberts • a month ago − + ⚑I am not a fan of Aquinas. God is love. God is holy. He created us for relationship, but this is not caused or coerced. Hell/lake of fire is for those who do not want to love/know Him, but prefer to remain selfish rebels. Lewis reminds us that there are two kinds of people: those who say to God 'Thy will be done' and those to whom God reluctantly says, OK, 'thy will be done.'
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smmcroberts >William • a month ago − + ⚑Hey William,
You're proving my point by your positive affirmations of the existence of spirits, because: how do YOU know? Material things are not spiritual things, and one cannot begin to prove the existence of the other. But one person affirms that there is a god, and another person believes him, and then swears by it, and so it goes.
You say "he can make himself known through creation." How does creation tell you that there is a male-gendered spirit being? It doesn't; it can't; it's just an idea in your own head. It would be like my saying: "Gravity proves the existence of spirit beings who live under the ground and rise up to pull us back by our ankles when we jump upwards." In both cases there exist better explanations, so we needn't invoke spirits.
There is no non-forged evidence that Christ ever walked on this Earth, much less that he came back from the dead. Even if he did exist, his material presence could not provide proof of spirits. It would just be another human being (whom later anonymous writers attributed the whole catalog of legendary miraculous feats to) telling people what he thought, with a brain and body unable to detect the things he was claiming to know.
Finally, he didn't write down anything, and no one who knew him wrote down anything he said. So all we have is what people wrote down fifty or more years after he supposedly died: and some of these things were obviously lifted from quotes of other men who'd lived long before. So how does that prove the existence of spirits? It can't and it doesn't.
We don't have anything on this planet that could be called the "word of god." The Bible, being one of the most self-contradictory and immoral books in existence, certainly does not qualify.
If you say that miracles are possible because God exists, then show me one (thus far, none have withstood scientific scrutiny; they have all been tricks to hoodwink the gullible). Till then all we're left with are your bare statements: "there is [a God]" and "Jesus is YHWH." Mere words reflecting ideas you have come to believe. But why should anyone believe you? Why should you have believed those who told you these things? They could not have known either. It is a long chain of people believing other people -- none of whom had the ability to know what they claimed to know.
It's time to cut that chain that shackles us to the ignorance of the past.
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William >smmcroberts • a month ago − + ⚑Channeling dopey Dawkins again? Creation is natural or general revelation. Your view says that a tornado can go through a junk yard and leave a functioning jumbo jet behind. Romans 1 is clear that creation/design is evidence of an uncreated Creator. God is right and you are wrong. We still need to have special revelation in Christ and the Word to know who He is and what He is like. BTW, God is not a male being. He is spirit without gender, though does reveal Himself as Father, Son, Holy Spirit (accommodation). Your view of the Bible is nonsensical, not verifiable. Just because you cannot understand it does not mean it says what you claim. The historicity of Jesus is not usually even doubted by Jesus. The Gospels are historical narrative, accurate. The case for the resurrection is strong and has led to many leaving atheism for Christianity when they objectively investigate it. Both our views involve faith or presumption, but follow the evidence like C.S. Lewis, Antony Flew, etc. did and it will not lead you to your place of darkness. You have gone from one deception to a worse one. I hate the Watchtower for turning people away with false religion from the most awesome, beautiful, majestic being in the universe. Merry Christmas (or Happy Holidays if that is more secular for you).
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smmcroberts >William • a month ago − + ⚑WIlliam,
One more thing: My view does NOT say "that a tornado can go through a junk yard and leave a functioning jumbo jet behind." That is a straw-man argument, not a representation of the theory of evolution.
But, I've explained this elsewhere, and it's now past my bedtime.
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smmcroberts >William • a month ago − + ⚑William,
I've never read Dawkins, Lewis, or Flew. But I know they're all just men. Merely men with only five senses: like Paul, Moses, and the anonymous writers of the Gospels. They all knew or know as much about the unknowable as you or I do: zilch. So, quoting Romans is as meaningful as quoting Dilbert (actually, probably less so.)
There is no historical Jesus, just as there is no historical Krishna or Hercules. There are only fantastic legends. In fact some of the very legends attributed to Krishna and Hercules were later applied to Jesus.
We may "need a special revelation" but we sure don't have one. The Gospels contradict each other, so they CANNOT be "accurate historical narrative" no matter how much you may wish they were or how many names you can drop of people who also thought that way because they were never able to examine the evidence objectively. (And by evidence, I mean merely reading the Bible and comparing it to itself with your common-sense engaged: as I have done in my book: http://smmcroberts.net/religio...
There is no "strong case" for a resurrection after "three days" of being dead and buried. There isn't even mention of Jesus (or Yeshua) in the court records of Pilate. None of the many historians of the time mention this miracle worker, even though thousands supposedly witnessed his miracles, and many people allegedly climbed out of their tombs and demanded their old jobs (and wives) back upon his death. Not exactly what I'd call a "slow news day," but no one evidently thought it newsworthy at the time! (Hint: what this really indicates is that it never happened.)
No one writes a word about Jesus until after Paul hears a voice saying "It's hard to kick against the pricks," assumes it's some dead guy, and formulates his new religion on that basis.
Only then, at least half a century after Jesus was supposedly executed, does anyone manufacture a biography: making the allegorical savior a supposedly flesh-and-blood being who lived in the not-too distant past (but long enough ago so that no one living would have first-hand knowledge of whether such a man existed at that time or not.)
Then, recognizing the odd, deafening silence about Jesus during the time period they had placed him in, the "church fathers" committed their forgeries to fill in that gap (such as the spurious passage in Josephus -- because they recognized the fact that Josephus certainly would've written about Jesus had he existed.) (Hint: this indicates that Jesus the miracle-worker never existed.)
My view does not require faith; it simply asks for, and relies upon, evidence. In that, it is the very antithesis of faith.
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William >smmcroberts • a month ago − + ⚑I understand people denying the Deity and resurrection of Christ, but even the most stupid do not deny the historicity of Jesus. There is far less evidence for many historical figures you do not question. You have a bad case of confirmation bias. I cannot help you.
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smmcroberts >William • a month ago − + ⚑William,
If no one wrote one word about Hitler until 1995 (fifty years after his death) would you call it "stupid" to question his existence? It's the same case here: someone doing things on a scale that could not be ignored WAS ignored by all living historians. The logical conclusion is that there was no such person doing such things.
William, what you're saying is simply not true. Many (more likely most) intelligent people question whether Jesus the miracle-worker ever existed. It would be foolish to accept at face-value the testimony of anonymous non-contemporary writers who couldn't agree, and who mixed their stories with age-old fables. Questioning the veracity of such stories is not confirmation bias; it is common sense.
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William >smmcroberts • a month ago − + ⚑Good grief, Charlie Brown.
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Atheism » Knowing More About the Unknowable – God
Knowing More About the Unknowable – God
Submitted by Steve on December 16, 2013 - 6:43 pm 13 Comments
Wait a minute: how can you “know more about the unknowable”? How can you know anything about it, much less “more” about it if it’s unknowable?
Well, you can’t.
Despite the obvious conclusion above, some people still think it’s possible. You probably know some people who think this: maybe you do yourself (but you just never thought about it in these terms.)
Let’s get this one point clear in our minds, even though it’s a tautology:
If something is unknowable then nobody knows anything about it.
Agreed? Okay, then we can continue.
What you don't know about GodWell, What Do You Know?
Let’s think about what it is that we can know. That will leave everything else in the category of unknowable.
But first, let me tell you about my dog: Buddy. Buddy can’t see the color red. He doesn’t have the light-receptive cones in his eyes that are sensitive to the color red. So, if I hold up a red flag and ask him what color it is, he’s just gonna wag his tail in blissful ignorance. To him, the color red is unknowable. But then, he can hear and smell things that I cannot (and probably don’t ever want to.)
So, what does my dog have to do with any of this? Simple: what is unknowable to him is what his sense organs cannot detect. He shares red-blindness with all other dogs. So, I’ve told Buddy that if some upstart pug comes up to him and claims to know all about the color red, he can confidently call him a liar and refuse to sniff his butt.
It’s the same with us human animals. We only know what we can sense and what we can logically infer from what we sense. An example of the latter is gravity: a concept we infer from the facts that we physically sense. Prior to the theory of relativity giving us an explanation of gravity via curved space, the word “gravity” was pretty much just short-hand for saying “things fall down.”
Angels, Demons, and Gods
The above all have something in common: they are held to be spirit beings: non-corporeal in substance. Spirits, by their nature, cannot be sensed: we can’t see them, hear them, smell them, taste them, or feel them. They are as unknowable to us as red is to dogs.
So, if someone comes along and claims they know something about spirits, we can be certain that they are either fooling themselves, or attempting to fool us. Because, when you think about it: how could they have obtained their information? Did they see, hear, smell, taste or feel an incorporeal being? No, they did not, because that’s physically impossible. Okay: do they claim to have had a “vision” then? Visions are ideas inside their own minds, and thus have no more value to us than any other idea they may come up with. Besides, we now know that visions can be created via electrical or chemical stimulation of the brain: they don’t require supernatural agents. They are simply cases of the brain responding to signals that normally come from our sensory apparatus — but in these cases the brain is deceived: so the individual thinks they are seeing and/or hearing things that are not really there.
But no one has ever tried to get me to believe in their spirits by claiming visions as evidence. Instead they have presented “sacred” writings. But who wrote these? Men (in rare cases: women.) But, pop-quiz: what is it that men and women cannot know about? That’s right: spirits. So writings about spirits are worthless; they were written by people who could not know anything about spirits.
Who doesn’t know about spirits? Every human who has ever lived, or ever will live. This includes the members of the Governing Body, the Pope, Joseph Smith, Paul of Tarsus, and Moses — to name but a few who have presumed to know more about the unknowable than the rest of us.
Now you know why I laugh at debates about whether God is a Trinity, or arguments over what his name is, or what he likes or hates, or what he intends to do to us in the future.
Now you can laugh too!
There is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.
–Neil deGrasse Tyson, The Sky Is Not the Limit: Adventures of an Urban Astrophysicist

Tags: Atheism, God, spirits

    
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Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑To me - stetching the point - if you claim your case was a joke, you are contributing to global warming by wasting electricity and server space.
I'm really only interested in people who have legitimate information to share..
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smmcroberts >Kimbal Summers • a month ago − + ⚑That's funny, Kimbal, but I more than make up for my contribution to global warming by taking the bus to work each day.
Sometimes legitimate information can be packaged in fiction and humor. Have you ever read Aesop or Mark Twain or listened to George Carlin?
--Or even Marry Poppins: "Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down!"
In any case, I apologize to anyone who didn't immediately recognize this as a fabrication. I thought I'd left enough clues in the introduction that this was not to be taken seriously.
Let's lighten up, people; this is a humor site, albeit with a message.
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Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑Well JWB this is an interesting post I must say.
I will start the ball rolling with my 2 cents worth.
For a start - I am a practicing Occultist and quite well read on material about UFOs the Supernatural and Magical Practices.
I am also a former J.W of 30 years or so having been a ministerial servant for the last 4. I've also done quite a bit of research into who and what Jehovah is and his
nature. With all that knowledge under my belt I feel I can enlighten you on
this experience somewhat.
The above message - assuming it was real experience and not fabricated as a joke -.came to you through an altered state of consciousness which is often a gateway for the supernatural to communicate. Dreams are a common used gateway for communication as we know from cases in the bible. Visions come through dreams, as well as messages and inspirations.
There are various non-physical extra-terrestrial beings - some are called Grays ( as that is their skin colour ) and some are Reptilians - who call themselves "Jehovah" by name. The reptilians are actually masters over the human race, and manipulate our religion and start off wars and inspire religions like the JWS. These reptilians do this as the energy given off is often negative and they eat or absorb it as a food source. The film "V" shown many years ago on TV was UFO movie based on this process.. UFO books speak of this. ( reference the privately published books called - Matrix 1, Matrix 2 & Matrix 3 - printed in the USA during the 1990's). I suspect based on the context of your discussion the Jehovah you were speaking too was one of them.
There is a group of Reptilians who also call themselves "THE JEHOVAH".. they
stand on two legs like us and have lizard shaped head with forked tongues. They
see us humans as a ready source of food for them.
An Occult text called - The Black Earth - which speaks of the beings from the star system DRACO controlling our earth sector and creating misery and wars to feed their fantasies. So too with those from Capricorn ( the sign of The Goat – ie :Satanic powers of darkness ) and Sirius ( the Dog Star – the controllers such as The Illuminanati;etc. )
( The occult book of - The Black Earth - is not called this for nothing, because it speaks of the Earth being burned by fire, just as the Bible predicts in the book of 2 Peter 3:11 & 12.)
It says >
“ Beware of the Cults of Death, and these are the Cult of the Dog, the Cult of the
Dragon, and the Cult of the Goat; for they are worshippers of the Ancient Ones, and forever try to let them in, for they have a formulae of which it is unlawful to speak. And these cults are not strong, save at their seasons, when the heavens open up to them and unto their race.
And there shall forever be War between us and the Race of Draconis, for the Race of Draconis was ever powerful in ancient times, when the first temples were built in MAGAN, and they drew down much strength from the stars, but now they are as Wanderers of the Wastelands, and dwell in caves and in deserts, and in all lonely places where they have set up stones. ( places like Stone Henge in Britain ). And these I have seen, in my journeys through those areas where
the ancient cults once flourished, and where now there is only sadness and desolation.”
“And of the Cult of the Dragon, what more can I say to thee? They worship when that Star is highest in the heavens, and is of the Sphere of the IGIGI, as are the Stars of the Dog and the Goat. And their worshippers have always been with us, though they are not of our same Race, but of the Race of their Stars, of the Ancient Ones. And they keep not to our laws, but murder quickly, and without thought. And their blood covers them. They have summoned the Spirits of War and Plague openly upon our Race, and have caused great numbers of our people and our animals die, after a most unnatural fashion.
And they are unfeeling towards pain, and fear not the Sword or the Flame, for they are the authors of all Pain! They are the very creatures of Darkness and Sorrow, yet they Sorrow not! Remember the smell! They can be told by their smell!
And their many unnatural sciences and arts, which cause wonderous things to happen, but which are unlawful to our people.”
-----------------------------------
Another interesting reference is about Jehovah being one of the 9 Archons, spoken about by the Gnostics of Jesus day. He was spoken as being known as – Yalabaoth - and referred to in the Gnostic text of the - Pistis Sophia - ( translated into English by G.R.S Mead ).
Download link for Pistis Sophia is found here >
https://ia600607.us.archive.or...
Putting Jehovah into the above context certainly explains the answers to your questions, as being cryptic and the reasons the witnesses are called BORG since Draco-Reptoids have a group consciousness like - The Borg.
An explanation of Jehovah / YHWH in light of the Gnostics is as follows: >
http://www.disclose.tv/forum/t...
- Archons -
Gnostic texts clearly state that Jehovah is the “Lord Archon,” a reptilian type
of alien predator who dominates the hive-mentality of the embryonic or Grey
aliens. Jehovah, whom the Gnostics called Yaldabaoth, is truly an extra-terrestrial
being whose realm is the planetary system independent of the earth, sun and
moon. He is not an “advanced being” (i.e., more evolved than humans) but a
demented alien with certain superhuman or deific powers. Gnostics taught that
Jehovah infects humanity with the belief that he is their creator god, but in
fact he cannot create anything. The NHC is very clear that Jehovah-Yaldabaoth
is the commander of the Archon species.
The Archons influence the way you perceive the world, not the world itself. The
primary power in the world we inhabit is the indwelling divinity of the planet,
the Gaian intelligence, called Sophia by the Gnostics. If you are aligned to
the Gaian intelligence, you do not see the world as a place of fear and
predation, but of beauty, bounty, and magic.
I follow the Gnostic teachings that the primary predatory intelligence facing
humanity is the Archontes. I believe that they are identical with the Annunaki
and the modern Grays......The Gnostics taught that the Archons did not create
us, but they are caught in a delusion, and they think they are our creators.
One of their main goals is to convince us that they created us – in effect, to
get us to think as they do. As far as I know, there is no “legacy” we have
received from the Archon ETs. They are inferior to us in will and intelligence,
though superior in navigational technology for travelling among the planets, in
telepathy and techniques of imitation (virtual reality).
I believe that the Archons are identical with the “Watchers” of Enoch, entities
who are credited with teaching metal-working and cosmetic adornment to
humanity.
....In my understanding, the Archons are an inorganic species. Perhaps silicon
and mercury, as Kerner suggests. The Greys are cyborgs, resembling human form –
or, to be precise, the form of a premature fetus. Gnostic texts decribe the
production of the Archon species as an abortion, hence the form of a premature
human body. The Archons are only body, they have no soul. Yes, I am convinced
that the Gnostic Archons are identical with modern Greys of the embryonic type.
Whitley Streiber observed that the Grey ETs exhibit a high degree of neotony –
that is, they have the form of an entity that is not fully formed when it is
born.
-Quotes-
Gnostics preached that there was an invasion that occurred about 3,600 BC and,
about 1,600 years before the Nag Hammadi texts were buried, they wrote that
this invasion was like a virus and, in fact, they were hard pressed to describe
it. The beings that were invading were called Archons. These Archons had the
ability to duplicate reality, to fool us. They were jealous of us because we
have an essence of some kind, a soul, that they don’t possess, and the Nag
Hammadi texts describe the Archons. One looks like a reptile and the other
looks like an unformed baby or a foetus. It is partially living and partially
non-living and has grey skin and dark, unmoving eyes. The Archons are
duplicating reality so that when we buy into it, when we come to believe that
the duplicated, false state reality is the real reality - then they become the
victors.
The Gnostics thought that Jehovah was an alien, off planet, demon and that he
was a fake god – a masquerading Archon again - duplicating reality. They did
believe in God, they believed in what they called the one true God and that’s
how they always defined it. Interestingly, Jesus defined his belief as being of
the one true God, always delineating it. I believe many of the stories of Jesus
are actually Gnostic myths about a possible rebellion against the Archons who
came down very severely on the rebel.
....So the Archons were released somehow from a prison – and this is probably
what The Book of Enoch is about – where he said he took the demons and locked
them in a box but that they would come back at the end of time.
Jesus was very interested in relating this idea that something was going to
happen at the end of time. So you see this illusion going on and then we see
also that when Zecharia Sitchin translated the texts, the cuneiform tablets, that the Annunaki are probably also the Archons. So we can learn more about the Archons by reading about the Annunaki who came here and altered us genetically [using our DNA] so that they could make slaves of us. So we can work out a picture of what these Archonic forces are.
They were somehow successfully quelled and then began their re-emergence and they are as close to immortal as we could understand and that’s why their plan is so precise but they needed time to gain power because, the people of the
earth were essentially Gnostics who were resistant to, and didn’t believe in
the “religion” that was being foisted on them where they must be fearful of an
angry, war god called Jehovah. But eventually, the forces of Jehovah conquered
the last of them and now they are pretty much in control of the system and are
getting ready for the final, gleeful [sarcastic] orgy of despair and horror
[imposed upon humans] which is what they like.
....The Gnostics were completely wiped out. One group of people that were
exposing that they were being invaded by these duplicators, these Archons –
were wiped out of history. They were wiped out completely. They called them
pagans and other names but that is not what they named themselves, which was
Gnostics who were very knowledgeable. They knew at the center of the galaxy
were millions of stars, they knew how far the sun was from the earth. They were
incredibly advanced people and the undertow of this one war-god religion spread
across the entire world and now it’s going to burn itself up in a conflagration
where all the Jehovah worshiping religions are going to murder each other –
which has always been the point.
....When you begin to look back, you realize the early Christian, from the time
of Jesus to the time of Constantine in 310 AD, they were preaching that they
did not worship Jehovah; they worshiped the one true God. It could be argued
that the early Christians were actually Gnostic followers of Jesus instead of
what we, today, call Christians. The entire New Testament was completely rewritten by Constantine and all of the information on the Archons was removed and the ideas of Jehovah being a cruel god were lessened. This is a fact. The Nag Hammadi texts are older than the New Testament by 400 years.
The New Testament that we have today wasn’t concocted until about 350 AD. When you go back to the Nag Hammadi, it doesn’t have the sin factor; they say what they really think.
....They are against Gnosis, - they are against knowledge. The defining myth of
Western mythology is that Jehovah told Adam and Eve that they could not eat of
the Tree of Knowledge. Not only that but if they did eat of it, they would
surely die. Yet they both ate of it and didn’t die so he wasn’t even telling
them the truth.
http://www.whale.to/b/archons_...
Read more: http://www.disclose.tv/forum/t...
--------------------------------------
Though I could cite many more other supporting comments for
my claims and go into the topic far deeper than these references discuss – the bottom line of all this discussion is the J.Ws do not worship the Supreme Being, we call God , but a being who claims to be supreme and calls himself by the name Jehovah.
It certainly explains their false prophecies and arrogant attitude towards
child molesting and apostasy; etc - as this is the personality nature of those
using them as Borg-like Puppets.
In other words, the average Jehovah’s Witness has been conned, or scammed, by an alien force controlling this planet.
On that basis one can only feel sorry for them.
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smmcroberts >Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑Yes, Kimbal, it was fabricated as a joke.
Was your reply also meant as a joke? If not, then I think you may need professional help. :-)
The one response I have to your comment happens to be my motto:
"No one knows more about the unknowable than anyone else."
The above fact renders your occult teachings just as invalid as the Bible.
The "Interview with Jehovah" was concocted out of my imagination, just to make a point or two. I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. I suspect that's the same with the occult writings you cite. How could anyone possibly know these things about these supernatural beings or aliens? Where is the evidence that Grays or reptilian Jehovahs exist? Are you simply relying on what some men have written? Authors often "stretch the truth" to make a point -- or even outright lie (as I'm sure you're well aware of, having been a JW for so many years!) Dreams (aka visions) cannot be relied upon as a source of truth. Though they can sometimes spark great ideas, everything must be put to the test.
The writers of the Dead Sea scrolls (along with everything else ever written) were just fallible humans like you and I: with no knowledge of gods, demons, or aliens (but with vivid imaginations.) Maybe they were making allegories that were later mistaken for literal history. That's what appears to have happened with the Christ allegory.
In any case, just because someone wrote something it doesn't make it true. Not even if they wrote it a very long time ago. Not even if we find it entertaining.
I do agree that Witnesses have been conned and scammed, but not by any alien force. It's just us humans here fooling each other and ourselves: sometimes knowingly and sometimes out of ignorance.
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Kimbal Summers >smmcroberts • 2 months ago − + ⚑Yes JWB the whole thing I wrote was joke to just see how gullible people are. I have way too much time on my hands..
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » Jehovah Speaks!
Jehovah Speaks!
Submitted by Steve on December 6, 2013 - 6:51 pm 5 Comments
Michelangelo's God being interviewedAs you no doubt know, Jehovah rarely grants interviews. It has been about two thousand years since he spoke (other than to the Pope, the Governing Body, and Oral Roberts, of course.) So, when he speaks to an underling like me it’s a very special occurrence!
Like Paul, I don’t know if the experience I’m about to relate was a dream or a vision–in the body or out. (Or possibly due to having one too  many margaritas that evening.) But, believe it or not, I was granted one of those rare interviews, and I knew JWB visitors would be interested to know what was said.
I was informed ahead of time that there would only be one answer to each question. No matter how cryptic the answer might be, I was not to ask him to explain his answers. So I decided, in the limited time allotted, to ask all of the hard-hitting questions that I think most of us would want answers to. (Though, regrettably I didn’t have time to ask: “Boxers or briefs?”)
What follows is an exact transcript.
JWB: Was Jesus you?
YHWH: Everyone is me.
JWB: Was he your son?
YHWH: You are all God’s children.
JWB: But what about being “only-begotten?”
YHWH: That would contradict what I just said, wouldn’t it. You’d have to ask the author of that statement why he wrote that.
JWB: But didn’t you inspire that to be written, along with the rest of the Bible?
YHWH: I inspire everything: the good and the evil: the truth and the lies.
JWB: Is there a fiery hell where sinners burn forever after death?
YHWH: (Laughs)
JWB: So, what do you think of the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
YHWH: The what?
JWB: Is there one true religion?
YHWH: Religion is something insecure people have dreamed up to soothe their fears of the unknown. To each one of them their religion has subjective truth as long as they don’t think in a broader context. It’s a type of mental illness, actually.
JWB: Who, then, is that faithful and discreet slave whom his master appoints over all his belongings?
YHWH: I thought you’d figured out by now that slavery is immoral.
JWB: Are you soon going to kill everyone who isn’t a Jehovah’s Witness?
YHWH: Who isn’t a what?
JWB: Are only Christians saved?
YHWH: Saved from what?
JWB: Saved from God’s wrath against sin.
YHWH: Look, the only thing people need to be saved from is their own wrath against each other and against themselves–usually fostered by religion and patriotism: the most divisive forces in history.
JWB: What about belief in Jesus, the Bible, baptism, joining your organization on Earth, spreading the good news, turning in time reports, attending meetings and conventions?
YHWH: People will believe whatever seems best to them given their culture, personality, and emotional needs. I personally don’t care what they believe: it only matters what they do: how they treat each other.
JWB: What about shunning a friend or family member who comes to believe differently than we do?
YHWH: That would be a good example of–what did you call it–oh yes: a “sin.”
JWB: What about abstaining from blood?
YHWH: What did I say about treating each other well?
JWB: Did man get here by evolution or by creation?
YHWH: If you’re going to ask scientific questions then instead of asking me you need to be true to that method and follow where the evidence leads.
JWB: So, what does the future hold for us? Is there life after death, will there be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous?
YHWH: I’m not a fortune-teller. If I knew the future you would have no freewill, and then–according to your Bible–you’d never have gotten into this whole mess to begin with. But as to this notion of “life after death”–isn’t that an oxymoron?
JWB: Can you create an object so heavy that you can’t lift it?
YHWH: (Laughs) That’s one of those paradoxes your finite human minds run up against when you try to imagine something with infinite attributes. There will always be holes in such concepts.
JWB: So you can’t answer the question?
YHWH: No.
JWB: So answering that question is something you can’t do?
YHWH: Correct.
JWB: Then it’s not true that you can do everything?
YHWH: In your finite minds I can only appear finite upon rational examination.
JWB: Are there infinite minds, and do you have one?
YHWH: Since you can’t conceive of “infinite minds” (other than as a meaningless label) it’s not possible to give you an answer that you could comprehend.
JWB: Why is there suffering (such as children being molested or born with fatal diseases) if you are all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving?
YHWH: One or more of your “ifs” must be false.
JWB: Do you answer prayer?
YHWH: Surely you can figure that one out for yourself. Didn’t I read of such an experiment in a past post on JWB?

JWB: So, should we just forget about you and go about our business “treating each other well”?
YHWH: Of course. If I existed, it would be just the same as if I didn’t. So, live your lives accordingly. An infinite being could never need placating by finite beings. So don’t worry about pleasing me. Please each other.

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Erica Hollis • 2 months ago − + ⚑I was born into this nutty cult and was a fourth generation witness. I pioneered for 12 years, had an elder husband, elder father, elder uncle, co uncle, etc. When I got kicked out for various reasons, I almost snapped. I'm recovering. Articles like yours are delightful. Thank you again. :)
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smmcroberts >Erica Hollis • 2 months ago − + ⚑Thanks for the feedback, Erica; it's always good to hear.
And thanks for sharing your experience. Many of us here can relate; breaking free of a cult is an intense emotional experience that is tougher to survive than anyone who hasn't been through it can imagine.
Kudos to you for making that journey. I'm glad we were here to give you a smile along the way.
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Erica Hollis • 2 months ago − + ⚑This is great. I love your blog. Makes me realize I'm not going crazy for leaving this wacky cult. And it made me laugh. :) Thank you!! :)
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William • 2 months ago − + ⚑JWs also used to celebrate Christmas, called Jesus Alpha and Omega, etc. They are wrong on so many things and the evidence sinks their ship. It is evident that they are the blind leading the blind, a manmade fallible organization of smoke and mirrors. If Satan cannot get you to be a Hell's Angel, then false religion will ensnare and lead to the same destiny. The biblical, historical, orthodox view is that Jesus is in fact Almighty God, YHWH in the flesh. Those who deny this are pseudo-Christian cultists.
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smmcroberts >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑You may be right, William. But I find it interesting that these two restorationist sects have both arrived at the belief that 1st century Christians did not believe that Jesus was God. According to Wikipedia's article on Early Christianity: " Early Christian views tended to see Jesus as a unique agent of God," and the idea of Christ's divinity did not fully evolve until the Council of NIcaea in 325 CE.
I wasn't around in the first century, so I don't claim to know.
Because there is so much disagreement within the Bible itself, no one can honestly say that there is a clear message on much of anything. That's why there are so many Christian sects; no one can agree on what it all means. I think the various writers had differing ideas. The Trinity concept was one clever way to try and bring harmony to some of their discordant views. However even such mental gymnastics fail to cover everything.
We're left with sects of Christianity choosing a side and then explaining away the verses that don't fit their interpretation. The Witnesses do it from the anti-Trinitarian perspective, and the mainstream Christian denominations do it from a Trinitiarian perspective. There is no clear winner.
Personally, as an atheist, I have no desire to enter into such squabbles between religious sects. I find it incredible that people presume that they know anything at all about the nature of invisible spirit beings. And I don't care if someone wants to think that their god is one, two, three or more persons -- as long as they don't go back to killing each other over it.
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William >smmcroberts • 2 months ago − + ⚑Correct. No use debating who God is, what He is like, etc. if one denies the existence of God.
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » History » “When Jesus Was God” or “Failing the Final Exam”
“When Jesus Was God” or “Failing the Final Exam”
Submitted by Steve on December 2, 2013 - 9:19 pm 6 Comments
Jesus Christ Facepalm“Jesus God!” No; it’s not meant as an expletive–though I’m not surprised when those two words issue involuntarily from my mouth after having stubbed my toe or having dropped my Concordance on it. No; it is meant as a name and a title: just as we often hear Witnesses say: “Jehovah God.”
But our dear Jehovah’s Witness readers will exclaim at this point: “Jesus is not God! The Bible never calls him God! He is at most ‘a god’ with a little g.”
Once we’ve calmed them down, we’re ready to read the wisdom of the Watchtower on this very subject:
The Bible reveals the fact that the name “God” can properly apply only to Jehovah God and his Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Jehovah is entitled to be reverenced because he is the Almighty God. Jesus Christ is entitled to be reverenced and worshiped because, while not the almighty God, he is a mighty one and both Jehovah and Jesus use their power lovingly, justly and wisely.
–Watchtower, Dec. 15, 1929 p. 378
Given the above, and the fact that Witnesses regularly refer to Jehovah as “Jehovah God,” it is only fitting that they worship Jesus and refer to him as “Jesus God” with full Watchtower blessings.
Oh, but wait; I’ve done it again: dredged up “old light” and presented it as “truth for now” when–as any good Witness will inform us–it was really only “truth for its time.” I apologize. The Watchtower has since “seen the light [better]” and they now assure us that Jesus is definitely not the God to be worshiped. In fact, we read this on their official website:
Yes, reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry, which is condemned in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures.
– Is It Proper to Worship Jesus? Awake 4/8/2000 pp. 26-27
Issue resolved?
Well, no. I’m sorry to be a stickler for the facts, but there’s still an issue.
Remember 1919? That was the year that Jesus supposedly judged the Witnesses (then known as Bible Students) to be the “faithful and wise servant” (now known as the Faithful and discreet slave). Why did he judge them so favorably? They tell us that it was because they had “true worship,” as opposed to all of the other Christian denominations:
When did Jesus appoint the faithful slave over his domestics? To answer that, we need to go back to 1914—the beginning of the harvest season. As we learned earlier, at that time many groups claimed to be Christian. From which group would Jesus select and appoint the faithful slave? That question was answered after he and his Father came and inspected the temple, or spiritual arrangement for worship, from 1914 to the early part of 1919. (Mal. 3:1) They were pleased with a small band of loyal Bible Students who showed that their heart was with Jehovah and his Word.
–Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave? Watchtower 7/15/2013 pp. 20-25
idolatryBut do you see the problem here? In 1919, and up through at least 1929, the “spiritual arrangement for worship” included worshiping Jesus: the wrong “God” — in fact, not a God (capital G) at all according to the brighter light! Someone who is not a God, but is worshiped as a God is a “false God.” The “Bible Students” were–according to current Watchtower understanding–idolaters! And we all know how pissed off Jehovah gets at those damned idolaters.
That would seem a fatal flaw. Why would Jesus judge this group as God’s “true worshipers” when they were worshiping a different, false God? This question is all the more pertinent when you realize that there were other denominations that were only worshiping the God of the Bible. The Christadelphians, for instance, were not worshiping Jesus in 1919.
Oh, but you say other religions slandered God’s name by their belief in hell-fire. Well, the Christadelphians are not believers in hell-fire either (nor the Trinity, nor the immortality of the soul. They also believe in God’s kingdom ruling on Earth, don’t vote, and are conscientious objectors to military service.)
Oh, but you say: the Bible Students were the ones “making God’s name known.” Sorry; they really weren’t. The name did not become prominent in the group until 1935 when they changed their own name to Jehovah’s Witnesses. In the 1919 Watchtowers, for instance, the name of Jesus appears 3 1/2 times more than the name Jehovah. Besides, as the Watchtower itself has admitted: Jehovah is not God’s name.
An Impartial Judge’s Fair Judgment
If we look at what the Witnesses claim is the “truth” today, then the Christadelphians where closer to that truth in 1919 than the Bible Students were. If Jesus had made any judgment in that year, the winners would not have been the Bible Students; the blue ribbon would much more likely have gone to the Christadelphians.
Therefore, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the “faithful and discreet slave” they claim to be. This explains why they have served poisoned meat at the wrong season (such as their prohibitions on vaccinations, organ transplants, and blood… none of which the Christadelphians have fallen for.)
Besides, the “faithful and wise servant” was boldly and adamantly proclaimed in the Watchtowers of that time to be none other than Charles Taze Russell (then deceased):
The Watch Tower unhesitatingly proclaims Brother Russell as “that faithful and wise servant.” — Watchtower, March 1, 1917 p. 68
So, if we are to believe “current understanding,” this is the “spiritual food” we have to swallow:
In 1919 Jesus judged the editors of the Watchtower to be his “faithful slave”
based on how “pleased” he was with their “spiritual arrangement for worship”
while these men were declaring that they definitely were NOT that slave,
and while they were engaged in idolatry.
At the same time, Jesus passed over other groups
who were closer to today’s current understanding
and who were not engaged in idolatry
and who were not proclaiming a false slave to the world.
Do you buy that? [If you answered Yes, please contact me immediately regarding some "prime" real estate I have for sale in Florida.]

Tags: Faithful and Discreet Slave, Jesus, worship

    
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Masson Cedric • a month ago − + ⚑http://www.hostingpicture.fr/u...
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Please protect your family against this secte WT.
"Awake" in French version 2011, april 15.
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Rob Crompton • a month ago − + ⚑Paul's "You are not under law" doesn't indicate any confusion on his part. The Jewish belief was that Jews alone were subject to the law. Gentiles were bound only by the very minimal law given to Noah and re-affirmed in Acts 15:29.
Gentiles who wished to do so could become proselytes and accept circumcision. They were then under the law in the same way as Jews by birth.
That is, the NT changes nothing: the law remains in force for Jews but is not binding upon Gentiles.
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
PrevNext123Exposing the truth
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Child Abuse, Jehovah's Witness Beliefs, Watchtower and Awake Bloopers » The Dirtiest Article Ever as the Watchtower Loves Blaming Victims
The Dirtiest Article Ever as the Watchtower Loves Blaming Victims
Submitted by Steve on November 25, 2013 - 8:00 pm 2 Comments
Our text for today is from Deuteronomy 23:13-14:
A peg ["shovel" Darby] should be part of your equipment. When you squat outside, you should dig a hole with it and then cover your excrement. For Jehovah your God is walking about within your camp to deliver you and to hand over your enemies to you, and your camp must be holy, so that he does not see anything indecent in you and turn away from accompanying you.
I can just picture the “OOPS!” face of poor Gomer–who did his dooty, but forgot his shovel at home–as Jehovah strides off into the distance declaiming:  “Hey! I almost stepped in that! I’m outta here!” And then how all the other Israelite soldiers yell at Gomer as–now unprotected by their war god: “Jehovah of Armies”–their enemies swoop down on them with a vengeance and they lose the battle Jehovah had promised to win for them.
Throw the Watchtower in the TrashBut I think Jehovah had a good point: no one wants to step in poop. I, for one, am so glad that the Almighty included this very important rule in his “perfect and holy” Law. Because, even though my cat knows enough to do this, some people just need to be told everything.
But worse than stepping in it is to be full of it, which brings me quite naturally to the Watchtower.
The Watchtower has dug up other equally irrelevant (and stinky) old laws from the Hebrew Scriptures and enforced them on their dupes: the Jehovah’s Witnesses — despite their own theology which holds that “the old law passed away.” (All Scripture is Inspired and Beneficial, p. 247)
But they’ve been selective. Very few Witness book-bags that I’ve seen have had a shovel strapped to them for use in case someone has to take a dump while engaging in field service. Yet, strictly following the above law, they all should.
But let’s return to that ever-persistent “call of nature.” I knew a Witness who would always correct any worldly person who used the phrase “Mother nature.” She would say: “Not ‘mother nature’: God!” So, I guess instead of using the phrase “the call of nature” we should refer to it as “the call of God.” Or, better yet, as good Witnesses always seeking to honor God’s name, and never miss an opportunity for letting it be known, we shall say: “the call of Jehovah.”
Comedian Steve Allen once wrote about that other minor call of Jehovah. He said that “pissing against a wall” had to have been one of the worst offenses to the Old Testament God because we read over and over again of how he wants the Israelites to kill everyone engaged in that activity. Here’s one example:
Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.
–1 Kings 14:10 (KJV)
I saw a homeless man doing exactly that the other day (pissing against a wall, that is: not taking away dung.) He was just lucky the old law has passed away, otherwise if a passing Jehovah’s Witness had seen him he would no doubt have been beaten to death with their poop shovel.
Something Stinks!
Here’s another old “passed-away” law that our “faithful and discreet guys” have seen fit to enforce now and again (with disfellowshipping taking the place of stoning):
If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man happens to meet her in the city and lies down with her, you should bring them both out to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the girl because she did not scream in the city and the man because he humiliated the wife of his fellow man. So you must remove what is evil from your midst.
–Deut. 22:23-24
Now, to give the Governing Body the benefit of the doubt: I can see where there might be some confusion on whether to apply an old “passed away” Law of God’s or not. If you just read the Hebrew Scriptures it’s pretty plain that the old Law was meant to be enforced forever:
You must love Jehovah your God and always keep your obligation to him and his statutes, his judicial decisions, and his commandments
–Deut. 11:1
Remember his covenant forever, The promise he made, to a thousand generations
–1 Chron. 16:15
And if you just read what the Christian Greek Scriptures allege that Jesus said, you reach that same conclusion:
Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill. Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place. Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens.
-–Mt:5:17-19
It’s only when we come to the writings of Paul that we hear a dissenting voice:
you are not under law
–Rom. 6:14
That may sound clear enough (if we care to take Paul’s word over what Jehovah and Jesus reputedly said). But even Paul was apparently confused on this issue: circumcising Timothy on one occasion (Acts 16:3)  [though refusing to circumcise Titus on another (Gal. 2:3-5)], but then violating the law at Deut. 23:15 (“You should not hand over a slave to his master when he escapes from his master and comes to you.”) by sending the escaped slave Onesimus back to Philemon (Philemon 1:10-16).
In trying to navigate through this morass of confusion, I think what the Watchtower has come up with is the notion that you can derive principles about what God does and doesn’t like based on his “perfect law” in the Hebrew Scriptures. So they pick and choose what seems appropriate from this ancient barbaric law and try to apply it to life in the modern world. But this ends up making them the arbiters of law. That’s a heavy (not to mention presumptuous) responsibility! They’d better be extra discreet and be sure about what they are claiming is God’s law before uttering any pronouncement or enforcing any punishments, don’t you think? Evidently not, though, because they’ve changed their minds about the blameworthiness of silent rape victims several times! (See JW Dilemma III questions 39-40)
Blaming the victims of rape reminds me of how the Watchtower religion treats other innocent victims. Some Jehovah’s Witness women have been counseled not to file a complaint against their abusive husbands because they would be guilty of bringing shame on Jehovah’s name, as well as failing to be “submissive” to their brutes husbands. But this attitude should surprise no one who is familiar with Witness children who are given the same treatment when they are basically told to forgive and forget their abuse at the hands of the pedophile elders lurking in their congregations.
These are all instances of passing the blame onto the victim, and then laying a guilt trip on them. Now, aren’t you glad you brought your shovel? Because, admit it: isn’t that the dirtiest trick you ever heard of?

Tags: Bible, blame, law, victims

    
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Arno du Toit: @noble et al: It has always been an enigma for me (even while active in the Society) WHY there are... Arno du Toit: Believe it or not, but it was this very same Proclaimers Book that helped me getting OUT of the Society... Alex James: Elders put her in the preaching work with a man that they knew had fondled his own stepdaughter but they... Andres Torres: This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said. Andres Torres: They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It’s like Marley said... Featured Articles
Diary of an Armageddon Survivor
Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake?
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The Evil Ted – JW Urban Legend
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smmcroberts • 2 months ago − + ⚑And if Satan were REALLY clever he would've eaten from the tree of life himself!
In fact, if you look into the sources of this story, this is the way it was originally written before the Hebrews mangled it in their version that found its way into Genesis. God planted a tree of life and a tree of death to give people a freewill choice. Then he sent a serpent as his messenger to tell humans that they should not eat from the tree of death, but rather from the tree of life. But the wily serpent changed the message and told them to eat from the tree of death whilst he happily ate from the tree of life himself. Which explains why people die while snakes apparently (to primitive peoples who saw them shed their skin) live forever.
For details, please see Sir James Frazer's classic work: Folklore in the Old Testament Chapter 2 (esp. pp. 47-52.) This great book is a must-read (an endlessly fascinating eye-opener) and is now freely available online: http://books.google.com/books?...
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
PrevNext123Exposing the truth
about Jehovah's Witnesses
JW Beliefs
What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? In fact, what do a lot of other religions believe in? Hocus pocus if you ask me. Either way, our ‘Beliefs’ category takes a look at various religious belief systems.
Cult
Many say that the Jehovah’s Witness religion is a cult. Do you think it’s a cult? In this section, we’ve housed all the blog posts that show you if it is a cult or not. You might be shocked at what you find.
JW Leadership
The Watchtower Organisation looks after all the Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. The good news about the ‘Organisation’ is that it keeps having magic moments, allowing us to poke fun at it.
Real Life Experiences
This section is filled with the real life experiences of former and current Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s a real eye opener that shows you what various trials and tribulations Jehovah’s Witness go through.
Funnies
Check out the latest funny posts. If you’re single, the chat up / pick up lines article will have you rolling around on the Kingdom Hall floor. That’ll make you wish you stayed behind for ‘Hall Cleaning’.
JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Bible » The Tree of Life
The Tree of Life
Submitted by Teeny on November 18, 2013 - 11:14 pm One Comment
This is an image of the Tree of LifeI was on Twitter yesterday and had an interesting chat with Godfrey Freeman (@DawkinsAssange). We were talking about the major issue with the book of Genesis. No, not how the kangaroos got to Australia after the flood. And no, not how Lot got it on with his own daughters. Rather, we were discussing the issue of the two distinct trees in the Garden of Eden – the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad and the Tree of Life.
If you haven’t read our article on why the three monotheistic religions fail to discuss the Tree of Life at any length, I advise you to check out the How Many Significant Trees were in the Garden of Eden post.
Read it? Good. Let’s move on.
The Watchtower Organisation has done such a good job at telling us all just how powerful and clever Satan is. He’s deceived the whole world. Well, not the ‘whole world’ as there are over seven million Jehovah’s Witnesses knocking about. In general, the fallen one is one mean sucker. And clever. Let’s not forget the clever bit.
The Devil’s Not that Clever After All
I started off this article by telling you about a conversation I had. You’d thought I’d forgotten, hadn’t you? For a second, I had. Either way, Godfrey read the post I wrote about the Trees and made a really important point; one that I hadn’t thought of before:
Pity Adam & Eve didn’t eat from the life tree first, it wasn’t banned…
Those simple fourteen words have been ringing around in my head since yesterday. Satan – one of the most cleverest beings created by Jehovah (through Jesus – lest we forget), failed to set in motion a chain of events that would have undone everything Jehovah had created. Okay, so Satan sort of did that by getting the first human couple to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, but he could have wreaked a world of havoc if he had persuaded Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Life first. After all, that tree wasn’t, as Godfrey says, “banned”. An epic fail on Satan’s part.
The Tree of Life is mentioned just four times in the good book:
Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life+ in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. – Genesis 2:9
Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” – Genesis 3:22
So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of E′den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life. – Genesis 3:24
Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’ – Revelation 2:7
The only moot point is the writer of Genesis (possibly writers, given the obvious shift between chapters one and two) fails to tell us how much fruit one needed to consume to live forever. Judging from the scripture in the book of Revelation, it seems as though one helping would be enough. And Genesis 3:24 puts a right spanner in the works – for starters, God creates the first weapon, and secondly, proves to us that humans need to eat from the Tree of Life in order to live forever! So much for Jesus and his 3 day sacrifice…
The Devil missed a real opportunity here. He’s going to miss one soon too; you know, when Armagenocide hits and he and his chums are locked away for a thousand years. It’s not like he can say “Well you know, I didn’t see that coming.” Then there’s the release after the thousand years where he’ll be killed.
This Satan fella is a real buffoon. But at least he’s not a genocidal maniac.

Tags: Garden of Eden, Tree of Life, Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad

    
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Most Viewed Hot Topics Comments  No More 3 Day District Conventions?
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 The Jehovah’s Witness Cult
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 How Many Significant Trees Were in the Garden of Eden?
August 6th, 2010, 09:05 AM
 Candace Conti Beats the Watchtower Society!
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 Candace Conti Beats the Watchtower Society!
August 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM
 Can You Die If You’re Perfect In Paradise?
January 9th, 2013, 01:56 PM
 No More 3 Day District Conventions?
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 Gay Jehovah’s Witness Victims
March 15th, 2012, 08:35 PM
 How Many Significant Trees Were in the Garden of Eden?
August 6th, 2010, 09:05 AM
Arno du Toit: @noble et al: It has always been an enigma for me (even while active in the Society) WHY there are... Arno du Toit: Believe it or not, but it was this very same Proclaimers Book that helped me getting OUT of the Society... Alex James: Elders put her in the preaching work with a man that they knew had fondled his own stepdaughter but they... Andres Torres: This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said. Andres Torres: They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It’s like Marley said... Featured Articles
Diary of an Armageddon Survivor
Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake?
Guide to Jehovah's Witness Beliefs
Significant Trees in Eden?
Popular Articles
Issues with Jehovah's Witnesses
JW Dating Advice
The Evil Ted – JW Urban Legend
What do JW's Believe?
Bible Prophecy
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Micky • 2 months ago − + ⚑I agree that in many cases prayers are just nonsense from practical point of view. On the other hand it can help the one who prays, to generally gain better psychic condition or even it can help someone to cure his/her illness. This is proven fact that people believing in their recovery, people with positive mind and positive attitude have much higher probability of recovery. Sure, they will once die as prayer/positive mind cannot help in all cases but sometimes it helps.
Also, prayer is kind of meditation and although I am not expert in religions and philosophies using meditation I know it can be beneficial. Not to mention that we as materialistic society know a little about powers that are beyond our current scientific methods and I admit there can be some energies that can be connected with prayer/meditation. But almost for sure not any god as people imagine him/her:-)
So, I am inclined to tolerate and understand when people want to pray unless it is connected with some sort of fanaticism.
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smmcroberts >Micky • 2 months ago − + ⚑Hi Micky,
Yes, I agree: meditation and a positive outlook can have health benefits. I sometimes meditate myself. Our emotions release chemicals into the bloodstream that certainly affect our health for good or for bad. But none of this is "beyond science."
When prayer includes some of the same physical processes as meditation (sitting quietly, breathing slowly, removing distractions and focusing your thoughts) then it's going to be beneficial for the same reasons. Other activities can also provide such benefits: such as contemplating a good chess puzzle, or listening to soothing music in the dark.
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William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Catholic and JW prayer can be spoofed for sure. Prayer is actually about relationship, not a shopping list, not formulaic. It is multi-faceted, not just petitionary. JWs and many Catholics lack a personal, intimate relationship with God. It is about religion, ritual, works, not relationship. Those who know God in spirit and truth find prayer powerful and meaningful. It does not just change us, but it can even change God's mind (e.g. Hezekiah; Abraham; Moses; Jesus, etc.). It is sad that some go from one religion to another and then to another false religion or no religion without ever knowing the most most beautiful, awesome, majestic, valuable being in the universe. He wants us to know and love Him in reciprocal relationship and prayer is part of this.
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smmcroberts >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑William,
I think that having an "intimate" "reciprocal" relationship with a spirit can also be spoofed for sure. But I don't want to offend you, so I'll let our readers use their imagination on this point.
If prayer can "change God's mind" then the supplicant must be smarter than God for having come up with a better idea than the one God had in mind. Of course this is impossible if God is supposed to be all-knowing.
Please don't presume to tell us what God wants; you have no way of knowing (and please don't refer me to your books written by other men who also had no way of knowing.)
I think what's really sad is that many people never break free from religion to see the world as it really is: unpopulated by gods or demons. It's just us here, alone on this planet along with the other animals: no angels, channeled spirits, spaceship aliens, or Big-Foot to help us out. We need to drop our religious differences (along with our religions) and work together.
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Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑As for the purpose of Prayer - it was mentioned in one film, and other sources, that such is "the sustainance / food of the gods". When the people stopped praying to the gods their power base declined. The ( the gods ) of course got angry with the people for with holding this energy source and struck out at the people as a means to get even with former worshippers. Many times in scripture when Jehovah got angry, it was when the people left him and went after other gods.
Prayers are a refined form of energy, which the god's feed off and sustain themselves. They are hooked on them like a drug addict is with drugs. When they stop receiving such, they get withdrawal symptoms and become pissed off with those who sustain their fix.
When Jehovah had divine control over creation, he was able to use a worshipper's prayer to sustain himself and act as the essence to accomplish HIS will - The more intense the prayers, the quicker and easier it is to get ones desires met because of the "adrenalin rush" gained from the prayer. I say "his will" because a prayer has to be in harmony with HIS will not your own for it to work. Psalms is full of favourite prayers which when prayed assist Jehovah as the deity to get this adrenalin rush.
Thanking Jehovah at meal times for one's food is a mark of appreciation and respect - assuming you believe he is the giver of all life.
With holding prayer is actually starving him and weakening his power.
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smmcroberts >Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑Kimbal,
I agree to this extent: gods only "exist" in any sense when humans imagine that they do. Maybe that's why we picture them as so egotistically vain; not only do they feed off our prayers, their very existence depends on our belief in them.
As more of us come to our senses the gods have been dying out. In fact, I don't think there are really any still kicking--thank God! ;-)
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
PrevNext123Exposing the truth
about Jehovah's Witnesses
JW Beliefs
What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? In fact, what do a lot of other religions believe in? Hocus pocus if you ask me. Either way, our ‘Beliefs’ category takes a look at various religious belief systems.
Cult
Many say that the Jehovah’s Witness religion is a cult. Do you think it’s a cult? In this section, we’ve housed all the blog posts that show you if it is a cult or not. You might be shocked at what you find.
JW Leadership
The Watchtower Organisation looks after all the Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. The good news about the ‘Organisation’ is that it keeps having magic moments, allowing us to poke fun at it.
Real Life Experiences
This section is filled with the real life experiences of former and current Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s a real eye opener that shows you what various trials and tribulations Jehovah’s Witness go through.
Funnies
Check out the latest funny posts. If you’re single, the chat up / pick up lines article will have you rolling around on the Kingdom Hall floor. That’ll make you wish you stayed behind for ‘Hall Cleaning’.
JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion III
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion III
Submitted by Steve on November 16, 2013 - 4:30 am 6 Comments
An image of a Praying Mantis cartoon saying a prayer to JehovahIn part two of this series we posed some honest questions about prayer, in particular regarding that “extra portion” of Jehovah’s Spirit. Hopefully you got yours now, and we can continue.
What d’ya Want?
In the Bible Jesus allegedly said that whatever we ask for will be granted. (Mt. 21:22) So what happens when people pray for opposite results? What if, while Bob was praying for Mrs. Olson’s recovery, Mr. Olson was praying for a quick and painless release from his wife’s suffering? We’re assuming, of course, that both Bob and Mr. Olson are devout Jehovah’s Witnesses in good standing, putting in over 10 hours of field service each month, never visiting apostate sites, and following the standard prayer-formula given in part one. There’s no possible way to grant both opposing prayers, so what Jesus allegedly claimed is false.
An Experiment in Prayer
But let’s be scientific about this and turn from the hypothetical to the experiential: let’s conduct our own little experiment. It should be very easy to validate the truthfulness of Jesus’ statement. If God grants everything we ask in prayer, then let us pray:
Dear heavenly father Jehovah, please send me ten million dollars in the mail today. In Jesus’ name: ‘Amen’ (and ‘Michael’ and ‘The Word’ and let’s throw in ‘Immanuel,’ just to cover all possible bases. You know who we mean now, right?)
Wait a moment… my mail-carrier is walking up to my mailbox right now… he’s delivering something! Let me see… Damn; it’s just the latest Watchtower and another piece of junk mail (the Awake!). My prayer wasn’t answered. Was yours? If not, then we are forced to conclude that what Jesus allegedly said about prayer is evidently not true. [On the other hand, if you did receive your ten million dollars I'll recant this whole article if you'll send me a ten percent "finder's fee" for having given you the whole pray-for-10-million-bucks idea.]
Controlled experiments have been conducted on the effectiveness of prayer. Some of these have seemed to show a slight advantage to those prayed-for over the non-prayed-for control group. Does this mean that prayer is effective? No, it doesn’t. Let me explain why. If prayer has no effect, then the results of such experiments will be random: sometimes one group will fare better, and sometimes the other group will fare better (like flipping a coin). This is what these experiments show. In only 57% of known studies did the prayer-group fare better. That’s hardly impressive. If I flipped a coin a hundred times I wouldn’t be amazed if it came up heads 57 times.
An experiment that proves something needs to produce those results every time it is performed. This is known, logically enough, as “repeatability”. Many of the prayer experiments failed to show any meaningful difference between those prayed for and those not prayed for. So, the meta-analysis (combining the results of several studies) has shown that prayer has no meaningful effectiveness. In short: the hypothesis “God answers prayers” has been tested and yielded no evidence to support it. It’s time to shelf it alongside other ideas that didn’t pan out: such as cold fusion, disposable underwear, and Harley Davidson perfume.
If you think prayer is somehow answered by a conscious being (“god”) then it seems unfair if this god somehow provides more help to people who are prayed-for than to those who are not prayed-for. So, here’s a little boy with leukemia in the control group, and another in the prayer group. This omniscient, omnibenevolent god looks at these two boys with the same affliction and decides to work divine magic on the one prayed over, but lets the other one suffer on his own. I guess hospitals are more ethical than this god; they try their best to help both boys.
Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda
In the end, I don’t see the point of prayer. If god knows what to do, has the power to do it, and is so loving that he will always do the compassionate thing, then how could prayer influence him? It couldn’t; he’d do the right thing without being asked.
It’s very simple: If he could’ve helped and should’ve helped, then he would’ve helped (without having to be asked). If we came across someone bleeding in the road we would help that person without someone having to ask us. But we are to believe that god is not as ethical as we are. He needs to be asked before it dawns on him to help. This, of course, is nonsense if God is supposed to be the all-seeing, all-powerful, ultimate moral being that Christianity makes him out to be. It makes the conclusion inescapable: when little boys suffer and die from leukaemia there can be no such god.
So, when it comes to prayer you can stop wasting your breath and your time; no one capable of answering is listening. If you want something it is up to you to get up off your knees (or off the podium) and work for it yourself.
As for mealtime prayers to “bless” the food — especially in restaurants — don’t get me started on that! What is different, anyway, between blessed and unblessed food? Tastier? More nutritious? Any salmonella magically removed? What? I never could figure it out. If you want to thank someone for your food, fine: thank the waiter, the cook, the farmer, the person picking up the tab… someone who actually had something to do with the food on your plate. But please don’t “bless” the food (or implore an invisible spirit to do so) if you don’t want to look like an idiot.
Finally, and probably most importantly: does anyone have some good tips on inconspicuous activities to pass the time while waiting for someone else to finish praying? (Other than the one we all commonly use: picturing everyone naked.)
Related Posts
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion – Part I
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion – Part II
Tags: Christian Beliefs, prayer

    
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Most Viewed Hot Topics Comments  No More 3 Day District Conventions?
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 The Jehovah’s Witness Cult
September 29th, 2012, 04:59 PM
 How Many Significant Trees Were in the Garden of Eden?
August 6th, 2010, 09:05 AM
 Candace Conti Beats the Watchtower Society!
August 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM
 Candace Conti Beats the Watchtower Society!
August 27th, 2012, 09:22 PM
 Can You Die If You’re Perfect In Paradise?
January 9th, 2013, 01:56 PM
 No More 3 Day District Conventions?
July 12th, 2012, 09:22 AM
 Gay Jehovah’s Witness Victims
March 15th, 2012, 08:35 PM
 How Many Significant Trees Were in the Garden of Eden?
August 6th, 2010, 09:05 AM
Arno du Toit: @noble et al: It has always been an enigma for me (even while active in the Society) WHY there are... Arno du Toit: Believe it or not, but it was this very same Proclaimers Book that helped me getting OUT of the Society... Alex James: Elders put her in the preaching work with a man that they knew had fondled his own stepdaughter but they... Andres Torres: This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said. Andres Torres: They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It’s like Marley said... Featured Articles
Diary of an Armageddon Survivor
Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake?
Guide to Jehovah's Witness Beliefs
Significant Trees in Eden?
Popular Articles
Issues with Jehovah's Witnesses
JW Dating Advice
The Evil Ted – JW Urban Legend
What do JW's Believe?
Bible Prophecy
1. Jesus Christ and the Virgin Birth
2. When was Jesus Christ Born?
3. Jesus Christ's Garments Prophecy
4. Breaking Jesus Christ's Legs
5. 30 Pieces of Silver
Jehovah's Witness Funnies
Apostate Test
Jehovah's Witness Chat-up Lines
Copyright © 607 B.C.E. JWB | Bible Prophecy | Jehovah's Witness Websites | Contact JWB | Sitemap | FAQs | Follow JWB on Twitter | Follow JWB on Facebook | Follow JWB on Google +




Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
PrevNext123Exposing the truth
about Jehovah's Witnesses
JW Beliefs
What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? In fact, what do a lot of other religions believe in? Hocus pocus if you ask me. Either way, our ‘Beliefs’ category takes a look at various religious belief systems.
Cult
Many say that the Jehovah’s Witness religion is a cult. Do you think it’s a cult? In this section, we’ve housed all the blog posts that show you if it is a cult or not. You might be shocked at what you find.
JW Leadership
The Watchtower Organisation looks after all the Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. The good news about the ‘Organisation’ is that it keeps having magic moments, allowing us to poke fun at it.
Real Life Experiences
This section is filled with the real life experiences of former and current Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s a real eye opener that shows you what various trials and tribulations Jehovah’s Witness go through.
Funnies
Check out the latest funny posts. If you’re single, the chat up / pick up lines article will have you rolling around on the Kingdom Hall floor. That’ll make you wish you stayed behind for ‘Hall Cleaning’.
JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion II
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion II
Submitted by Steve on November 15, 2013 - 9:53 pm No Comment
A cartoon image of a Praying Mantis prayingIn part one we took a look at Catholic prayers, and then gave a tip on performing great prayers by following the six steps (plus closing) in the formulaic prayer of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
We’ll start off part two with another great prayer tip for our JW readers:
The most memorable prayer I ever heard was performed by a Bethel brother in the Bethel dining room. The first five steps were standard fare, but then in step six he gave us a zinger:
“We look forward to the day when you will wipe out every two-legged germ from off the face of the Earth.”
This not only evoked the obligatory chant of “Amen” at its conclusion, but was followed by gales of laughter by all in attendance [save yours truly.] So, in order to add spice to your prayer performance, don’t forget to take an occasional snipe at “worldly” people and their hilarious destruction. After all, Jehovah’s Witnesses by no means belong to a ‘Doomsday Cult‘…
Some Honest Questions & Observations about Prayer
What does it mean to ask for “an extra portion of your spirit” from Jehovah [step four in the formula]? Is this the same spirit that the Watchtower tells us is an impersonal “life force”? So it’s roughly equivalent to “may the force be with you” from the Star Wars movies? Does a person receiving “an extra portion” of life-force thereby become “more alive”? If so, what, exactly does “more alive” mean? I always thought you were either alive or dead: without any gradations between the two states of being–unless you happen to find yourself playing one of the “undead” in one of those Zombie movies.
electric_hairDuring prayer-time at the Hall, I imagined that receiving “an extra portion” of Jehovah’s spirit would be similar to somehow plugging a 120-volt appliance into a 240-volt outlet and watching the meltdown that would ensue. I would picture the brothers and sisters receiving their “extra portion” with everyone’s hair suddenly standing on end as they began rolling their eyes, shouting in tongues, and doing the jitterbug amidst crashing folding-chairs and sparks of electricity shooting from their fingers. [Everyone thought I was smiling after the prayer due to my contemplating Jehovah; little did they know.]
If God’s spirit is everywhere (the whole omnipresent thing) then how can it be divided up: a portion here and a portion there? If an “extra” portion goes somewhere, is it removed from somewhere else? So are people dying left and right every time the Witnesses are energized in this manner–rendering their prayers murderous?!
The writer of Matthew had Jesus make a great point in regards to prayer, with words to the effect of: ‘God already knows what you need better than you do.’ (Mt 6:8) Everyone seems to forget this when they pray. The writer of Matthew depicted Jesus himself forgetting it when he gave us the “model prayer” (Mt 6:9-13) by asking for daily bread, forgiveness, and not to be led by God into temptation (which, according to the Bible God would never do anyway — (James 1:13) so why pray to God not to do it?)
Frankly, to me, prayer has always seemed the height of impertinence. We pretend to speak to the ultimate, all-mighty, all-knowing being with transparently patronizing flattery and requests for things he should already know we need. Shall we “pray for peace”? Okay, but why wouldn’t God already know that we need peace? If peace were important to him he would’ve done something about it already, right? Shall we pray for the sick? Okay, but why would a God who created disease and watched as people got sick suddenly change his mind about their fate just because we asked him to? Does God assume we know better than he does? Do we imagine God saying, “Hmmm, I was going to let that stroke of Mrs. Olson’s prove fatal by Wednesday. But Bob Johnson just prayed for her to get better. Bob’s plan sounds better than mine; guess I’ll change my mind and cancel that Wednesday death”?
Worse is when people bargain with God in their prayers: “If you’ll make Linda say Yes to my offer of marriage I’ll never miss another meeting as long as I live.” As if God–with the entire universe to keep running–would take time out to consider your deal and then force someone into marriage (manipulating freewill in the process) just for the thrill of seeing your face every week in the Kingdom Hall!
Two biblical examples of such bargaining come to mind. One is of Jacob offering to take on Jehovah as his god. According to the Bible, Jacob said that if Jehovah would feed and clothe him, then Jacob would make Jehovah his god and give him a tenth of his earnings (Gen 28:20-22). Can’t you just picture Jehovah herding every 10th sheep of Jacob’s into heaven? (Maybe that was the flock Jesus was always talking about.)
The other example is of that “great man of faith” Jephthah (Heb. 1:32-33) Here’s a guy who promised Jehovah that he would burn to death the first person he saw coming out of his house if only Jehovah would help him murder the children of Ammon (Judges 11:30-31).
According to the Bible, both bargains were accepted and successfully completed. In Jephthah’s case this involved murdering his own daughter as a burnt sacrifice to Jehovah (Judges 11:33-40) — making him one of our top 5 most-wanted.
Next up: Something prayer-wise that should prove to be a profitable experiment for us all!
Related Posts
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion – Part I
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion – Part III
Tags: holy spirit, prayer

    
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Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑Well you have struck a sore point with me - in that - Jws don't celebrate pagan holidays, but they end they prayers to the god Amum Ra the sun god Amum or Amon which was worshipped by the Ammonites and who was the mediator between God and man long before Christ came on the scene. Amun was ousted from the heavenly realm some time latter and replaced by the new Mediator and Christ - Jesus. Remember the old Christ ( the word CHRIST is a title meaning "anointed one" ) was Amon. I raised this point with J.w's on the doorstep some years ago and they dropped the topic as soon as they knew who I was.
Such Knowledge is well known in the higher orders of The Masons and other Occult groups, but almost unheard of in religious groups like the J.W'S. Again another nail Jehovah's Coffin for not revealing the truth to his people.
[ And of course in saying this for another discussion - the Jws also wear wedding rings, which also have pagan origin, just like the calendars days of the week and the months of the year - which J.F.Rutherford tried to change when he was in office. ]
So when Jesus came to his temple sanctuary in 1919 to inspect the household of faith and found them celebrating - Xmas, Easter and Birthdays going to war, wearing wedding rings and using pagan calenders; as well as, believing in demonic pyramids, and using the cross, and then ending all their prayers to the false mediator and god AMEN - it makes me wonder how the Watchtower Organization can claim to have been given "divine authority" over Christ's household domestics, acting as his "earthly mouthpiece", "channel of truth" and Jehovah's loving wife !
To me, they have an arrogant self appointed authority like the clergy, and are no different than Christendom.
They recently proved this by riding the scarlet coloured beast ( the UN Nations in their interpretation ) by having a U.N Library card back in the early 1990's.
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion
Submitted by Steve on November 15, 2013 - 7:21 pm One Comment
A funny image of a praying mantisOf all the odd things I did as a Witness, resuming praying seemed the oddest at the time. I had been taught to pray in my Catholic youth, but had given it up for Lent one year, and had never gotten back into the habit after “Easter.” {Sorry; that’s my standard Catholic joke.}
These early prayers were mostly “vain repetitions” learned by rote. The biggest offender was in “praying the rosary”: where some beads signalled you to pray an “Our Father” and others a “Hail Mary” (not to be confused with the desperado pass in football.)
I recall that in praying the “Hail Mary” I never understood what “the fruit of thy womb, Jesus” meant. I didn’t know what a womb was. I thought we were saying “fruit of thy whom Jesus” which didn’t make much sense (but then neither did all the Latin we chanted back and forth with the priest during mass in the days before Vatican II changed the rules.)
That prayer ended with another curiosity: we asked Mary to “pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.” This generated a lot of questions in my young mind. If Mary was going to pray for us now, why would she have to pray for us again at the hour of our death? Hadn’t her first prayer done us any good? And how would Mary know when it was the “hour of our death”? Was there a predestined time for us to die? Did Mary keep a logbook of those who had prayed a “Hail Mary” sometime in their life so she could start praying for them again when they had sixty minutes left? Poor Mary would be kept woefully busy praying for a multitude of sinners simultaneously around the clock1. Not my idea of heavenly bliss!
I decided to give Mary a break and not ask her to pray for me anymore. I threw away my rosary, and the following year I gave up Catholicism for Lent.
When I became a Witness I enjoyed laughing at such foolish notions held by my former religion. But, did I come to find anything laughable in the Witness idea of prayer?
Witnessing Prayer Amongst Witnesses
I found that prayer was a little different amongst the Witnesses. Their prayers always started out “Dear heavenly father Jehovah,” as if they were dictating a letter. It struck me as too informal. Even an Earthly judge is addressed as “your honor” rather than, “Dear Fred,” for instance. Then there’s the matter of respect. If I addressed my father by his first name it would be seen as disrespectful. But we thought Jehovah was so in love with the sound of his own name that he didn’t mind the disrespect, and even appreciated our constant overuse of it [in spite of the way we were horribly mangling it beyond recognition as YHWH.]
Although the Witnesses eschewed rote prayers, they nearly always followed a set formula:
The salutation (“[Dear] heavenly father Jehovah.”)
Thanks (with plenty of obsequiousness thrown in such as thanking God for the privilege of serving him.)
Putting in an “order” for what was wanted (e.g. productive field service or an enlightening Watchtower study [not much chance of the latter order being filled!])
More asking for what was wanted (typically including “an extra portion of your spirit.”)
Remembering the “persecuted brothers,” missionaries, Bethel workers, etc.
Looking forward to the “new order” (with more obsequious fawning at the prospect of serving Jehovah forever in paradise.)
Closing the Deal
Then would come the closing. This was critically important; without the proper closing we thought that God wouldn’t hear any of what went before in our prayer. Kind of like writing an email and forgetting to hit the Send button.[But this was a little odd because we were told that he had no trouble hearing any gossiping we might engage in--without such conversations having to end with the closing formula.]
The closing was always:

“We ask this all in Jesus’ name: ‘Amen’.”

I always wondered why they said that Jesus’ name was “Amen.” I knew that Jesus was nicknamed “the Word,” and the Watchtower told us he used the alias “Michael” when he went off battling dragons and such. An image of the Egyptian Amen RaBut I was always curious as to why he would adopt the name of that Egyptian deity Amen (aka Amon-Ra) [as Revelation 3:14 informs us that he did.] I also wondered why we thought it was so important to always remind God of this fact at the close of every prayer. I speculated on what would happen if I were to close my prayer with “…in Jesus’ name: Michael.” Would that work just as well, or would it end up in the dead-letter office of undeliverable prayers?
Finally, the closing was followed by the only chanting the Witnesses indulge in: everyone would repeat Jesus’ alias: “Amen.” In the end the reason for this wasn’t any clearer to me than the Latin chanting of my Catholic youth.
Witness tip: If you ever have to fake your way through a public prayer, the above six-step formula + closing can’t fail to win you accolades from your hearers for a job well done. [It worked for me many a time.]
Join us in part two where we’ll give another tip on delivering great prayers!
Footnote:
1. Worldwide, about 6,098 people die each hour. The ratio of Catholics in the world population is 17.5%. That means that about 1,067 Catholics die each hour. Probably at least 90% of them prayed a Hail Mary at some point in their lives. That means there are 960 people for Mary to pray for each and every hour. That’s 16 per minute, which gives her less than 4 seconds per person. Maybe that’s just enough time to rattle off “Forgive Catherine Elizabeth Bernadette O’Sullivan” before moving on to the next name. With such a demanding schedule, I don’t know how she ever finds time to also “pray for us now,” and still put in so many guest appearances on Earth.
Related Posts
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion – Part II
Uttering Prayer in Utter Confusion – Part III
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Arno du Toit: @noble et al: It has always been an enigma for me (even while active in the Society) WHY there are... Arno du Toit: Believe it or not, but it was this very same Proclaimers Book that helped me getting OUT of the Society... Alex James: Elders put her in the preaching work with a man that they knew had fondled his own stepdaughter but they... Andres Torres: This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said. Andres Torres: They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It’s like Marley said... Featured Articles
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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten Mod • 2 months ago − + ⚑Fabulous post Steve!
Guys, please do what you can:
http://www.redcrossblood.org/d... - USA
http://www.redcross.org.uk/Don... - UK
http://www.donateblood.com.au - Australia
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William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Few things are worse than using one's time, energy, money to promote a false religion.
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Stephanie H • 2 months ago − + ⚑Very well written. Yet again. Thank you so much for this. Please keep doing what you're doing. This post brought tears to my eyes.
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smmcroberts >Stephanie H • 2 months ago − + ⚑Thanks, Stephanie!
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
PrevNext123Exposing the truth
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JW Beliefs
What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? In fact, what do a lot of other religions believe in? Hocus pocus if you ask me. Either way, our ‘Beliefs’ category takes a look at various religious belief systems.
Cult
Many say that the Jehovah’s Witness religion is a cult. Do you think it’s a cult? In this section, we’ve housed all the blog posts that show you if it is a cult or not. You might be shocked at what you find.
JW Leadership
The Watchtower Organisation looks after all the Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. The good news about the ‘Organisation’ is that it keeps having magic moments, allowing us to poke fun at it.
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Real Life Experiences » The Gift of Time – Give Blog
The Gift of Time – Give Blog
Submitted by Steve on November 13, 2013 - 5:13 pm 4 Comments
An image of a son and his motherWe talk a lot about time in relation to the Watchtower. In fact, we recently had a three-part series about time.
We sometimes tend to get lost in the morass of debates regarding dates and timings of “prophecies” as put forth by the Watchtower.
We also talk a lot about blood, for obvious reasons.
In most articles we try to use the JWB trademark humor along with solid logic.
But today I want to talk about these two topics in a different way.
Yesterday I received two very different messages.
The first one was from a JWB commentator on our Facebook page. In commenting on our recent article “Will Jehovah Make it Right?” he wrote:
It blows me away that the author wastes time writing this. why are you spending time on fiction? the JW’s are a cult and nuts, you’re trying to make a logical argument to cult members. Doesnt work.
I understand the frustration of trying to reason logically with someone who is clinging to Kripkean dogmatism (the “whatever you say must be wrong because I know I’m right” fallacy.) Most ex-JWs have “been there and done that,” and have soon recognized the futility of such conversations.
But I’m sure, in a quieter moment, our commentator would agree that all of our former brothers and sisters are not really “nuts.” Rather, they are victims of a mass delusion they find themselves trapped in. Many are conflicted, but stay because they don’t want to lose their family, and/or they think it really is the truth.
Our JWB banner states that our mission is:
Helping people decide on joining or leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
We do this primarily by presenting them with the facts, served up with a healthy dose of humor to make it more palatable.
In my own case, my first attempt to flee the ‘Tower (over 35 years ago) was disastrous because I still thought it was the truth. I no longer could stand being there, but I could only castigate myself for even thinking of shirking my “duty” to spread the word to what would otherwise be victims of Armageddon. This conflict raged out of control to the point of a suicide attempt. After that, I went to Bethel, and while I was there I learned the true facts about the Watchtower from their own publications in the Bethel library. But, if the Internet had been available back then, and if I’d found a site like JWB [which presents the facts without trying to rope one into another equally absurd religion] – and Yes, I would’ve looked for it – it could have saved my life. At the very least it would’ve given me the gift of time: an additional year of living my own life rather than the Governing Body’s.
Now that there is the Internet, I hope there will always be sites like this one: presenting the facts that are hidden from Witnesses by the organization (and yes, using logic as well as humor to do so.) JWB may not appeal to everyone – and for them there are other great ex-JW sites that refrain from our irreverent humor – but for me, this site is exactly what I needed during my “crisis of conscience.”
I think it takes both an emotional shock and a logical examination of the doctrines to fully break free. I hope that articles such as the ones on JWB and on the many other great ex-JW sites will provide at least one piece of the needed “deprogramming kit.” If a Witness stays stuck in the ‘Tower, it won’t be because we didn’t attempt to fill the Internet with all the information they needed to escape.
The Second Message
All of which brings me to the second message I received yesterday. I’m going to copy this message exactly as it came to me from the Red Cross (where I regularly donate platelets.) No logic, no argument, no trying to be funny. To me, this short message speaks volumes, because, as it speaks to the heart, it inadvertently demonstrates why the narrowness of the Watchtower religion, with its strict adherence to its imaginary laws, taking precedence over life and love, is so very wrong.
Those who read it and respond: “So what? Big deal?” - they are the ones who are truly lost.
With each blood or platelet donation you give a gift that means something to someone like Jim.
Jim’s mother, Maye was a champion Scrabble player for most of her life. In January of this year, Maye received six pints of blood when a bleeding ulcer nearly took her life. Unfortunately, just four short weeks later she passed away from other medical complications. Jim credits blood donors with extending the life of his mom, giving them invaluable time to play the game she loved three more times.
“We will be forever indebted to those people who gave her their gift of life. I have donated blood several times each year for many years. Though I will never know whose life my blood has improved or saved, I do know, now, the feeling of infinite gratitude it has brought them.”

Tags: Blood, logic, time

    
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William • 3 months ago − + ⚑These are sad, but true, e.g. of why we should oppose cults and false religions that are destructive. This does not mean there is no God or no true faith that is helpful, not harmful. Concerned Christians and former JWs should expose the lies and evil practices and beliefs of the WT (but this is no excuse for rejecting the loving, holy God who condemns vs condones these things).
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smmcroberts >William • 3 months ago − + ⚑If you define your god as all-powerful and all-knowing, then he condones these things by his inaction. I think this is an excellent reason for rejecting the idea that such a god is loving.
And please don't give me the lame excuse of "freewill" unless you would sincerely have qualms about interfering with the freewill of a child molester.
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William >smmcroberts • 3 months ago − + ⚑A free will defence is part of the issue. God is not an aloof Deist god nor is He a micromanaging control freak. In order to have reciprocal love relationships with significant others with a say so, the possibility of good and evil must exist. God will triumph over evil in the end and justice will take place (delayed is not denied). He is with us through things and has suffered Himself in Christ when He defeated sin, sickness, Satan, death, hell. My not feeding starving kids directly in Africa does not mean I condone their plight or am pleased that my sent aid is taken by corrupt governments. You want a free world with God controlling all things (cake and eat it too). God is omnipotent, omniscient, holy, loving, good, etc., but your putting God in the dock instead of yourself shows your pride and rebellion.
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smmcroberts >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑So, here's William, practicing "godliness" as he walks past the child being molested in the park: "Sorry, kid; I can't help you; I'm not a micro-manager, and I certainly can't be expected to interfere with your molester's freewill!"
Excuse me, William for having accused you of godliness in the above paragraph; it's much worse than calling someone stupid, and I apologize. I don't really think you're godly: I just wanted to make a point.
If "God will triumph over evil in the end" then there goes your freewill excuse. If God's going to interfere with freewill [violently] sometime in the future, then you can't use freewill as an excuse for him not to interfere in the present.
As I pointed out in the article, victory over evil "in the end" will be too late. There are some things that cannot ever be "made right" unless they are prevented in the first place. Not by anyone. Not even by a god: any god.
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Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑I might play the devil's advocate here - because when I was a J.W. the logic the Elders threw at me when I raised similar reasoning as your post - was the case in Joshua 10:13 -
"And he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher ? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."
This is biblical support that God controls time ( to some extent ); as we are now out by almost one day in our Calendar. Additional to this support is the following
scriptures –
Matthew 19:26 – “But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto
them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.”
Mark 9:23 - Jesus said unto him, “If thou can’t believe, all things [are] possible to him that believe.”
Mark 10:27 - And Jesus looking upon them said, “With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.”
Luke 1:37 – “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”
Luke 18:27 - And he said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”
Now if we are to take the above as fact – then God can “reverse time” and fix the past.
But looking at the other side of the same coin – assuming God has this ability - he stands idly by while heinous sins are committed without interference; - that makes him an accessory to the crime and worse than the criminal who committed the act. That makes him along with the angels allies of Satan.
This demonstrates he has no love for man – that he prefers to see you suffer and likes to play with your life as some sort of insidious entertainment – and therefore he becomes a stumbling block to those without faith.
Irrespective of which way you reason, he is not a deity I want in my life !
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William >Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑If you look at the suffering of God in Christ you would understand the horror of our sin and the great love of Christ. The cross (not torture stake) is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who believe, it is the power of God (I Cor. 1:18). You are rejecting a straw man caricature of the great loving, holy Father God fully revealed in Christ. He has given you freedom and hell is for those who do not like Him or want to be with him. Your problem is ignorant arrogance, rebellion, pride, not lack of information (WT is not the source for biblical truth, but turns people off of it).
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Kimbal Summers >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Do I have a problem ? That being "ignorant arrogance" !
Let's put it this way -
It's better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven !
I don't see serving God any sort of freedom, but slavery.
And as Revelation implies - a third of the stars left God's abode and went with the Dragon.
When 33.33% of God's heavenly organization walks out on him and follows Satan, such situations tell me there is a dead fish in the God's camp.
So too, those following Satan at the end of the 1000 year reign, "were as the sands of the sea".
For so many to leave, indicates God has a real issue in managing things in the camp. The vast majority, who are as the sands of the sea, do not see God as the loving deity he claims to be, in fact, they don't recognize Christ's ransom as having any value - that it is a sham.
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William >Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑Romans 1
John 3:16
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Kimbal Summers >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Isaiah 45:7
American Standard Version
" I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 CEB
Common English Bible
"I form light and create darkness, make prosperity and create doom; I am the LORD, who does all these things."
Isaiah 45:7 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
"I form light, I create darkness; I make well-being, I create woe; I, ADONAI, do all these things."
--------------------------------
And so who is it the created all these things - the devil, the suffering, the evil, and then manipulates creation to do his will ? His own mouth condemns him - for it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie ! - He only tells truth.
The bible is the biggest witness against God ever written - it's his own word of condemnation !
Quoting John 3 : 16 tells me God is child murderer - as he loved his son so little, that he stood by to watch him being offered up as a child sacrifice. Sacrificing ones own son - Is not that what Moloch accepts ? Does not that place God on the same level as a demon ? It's not love - it's demonic.
And as for Romans 1 - I assume your having a dig at me particularly with the following words >
"18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
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Since most of that is Paul words is spoken against Godless homosexuals, evolutionists and materialists - of which I am none of these - then I could well understand - but as I am an insolent God hater ( who believes in God as much as you do and maybe more-so), who is full of malice and boastful arrogance, for good reason - I can well understand. But you obviously don't know what I know - for I preach a much older faith that yours, that was around before the word of Christ came into being - a condemned gospel;- for I am one of the accursed !
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William >Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑Huh? Where to begin. If you were a JW, it shows that they do not teach people to exegete Scripture or think critically.
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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten Mod >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑William, you believe in god, ergo you are not "thinking critically".
Matthew 7:5
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Kimbal Summers >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Yes William I was raised a J.W for 28 years - from 1961-1989 and a ministerial servant for 4 of those years - as well as one of the biggest Watchtower Book Collectors in the country ( Australia ).
So tell me where I am wrong - or am I so blind, that I am beyond all rehabilitation in Christ ? As I said - I preach a very different and much older doctrine than your own.
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William >Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑What do you mean book collector? Do you have a library of old WT material? This would be of value to help people leave the organization. What led you to leaving the organization? I do not know your beliefs on core issues, so I do not know if you are right or wrong. You are not beyond salvation in Christ. Many ex-JWs have become true believers, but others have been turned off religion or have given themselves over to godless lives. What is your older doctrine? Judaism? Hinduism? Monotheism is the oldest religion, not atheism, not Gnosticism, etc. I am thankful you have some connection to Randall Watters and are an ex-JW. Tell me more...
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Kimbal Summers >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Well William;
As for the book collecting I have a very loose collection of items which I rarely use now as I can get most things off the internet.
But I had and massive collection of original and Xeroxed watchtower material which rivalled the Australian Bethel in the late 1980's before I sold it all off to other ex-witnesses in Australia & USA.
I know of Randy and have corresponded with him many years ago including Ray Franze. I left over the the chronology issue after reading Carl Olaf Johnson's original thesis ( yes I wrote to Carl as well ) on the Gentile Times. I had a copy of the first manuscript along with many other references related to the same subject.
Most ex-witnesses and witnesses don't have the intelligence to understand the chronology issues and so such topics go over their heads, when the subject is discussed.
Many exs I know are no longer religious, but celebrate Xmas and Easter and break every rule in the book because they can. They are also not interested in seeking truth in any form.
-------------------------
As for my faith - I believe in an old archaic religion one that existed long before Jehovah came into being. Its Genesis is covered in the Enuma-Elish. How I discovered it is another story in itself. Some translations are shown below; >
http://www.csun.edu/~rlc31920/...
http://reinep.files.wordpress....
http://theknowledgeden.com/wp-...
For a start Jehovah is not the supreme creator, but a much lesser god known as "the Ancient of Days". He is the first born of the elder god Enlil. He is known as the God Sin or Nanna Sin and he use to dwell on mount sin or Mt Sinai where Moses received the 10 commandments. His name YHWH is an acronym of the 4 quadrants of 'the Tablets of Destiny' which the gods use to create life and hold their authority. The custodian of the tablets can rightfully call himself "GOD" or "the Supreme Being" above all.
In saying this the tablets have changed hands many times throughout history. Their real owner is Tiamat the Great Dragon who bore and created all things by them but was defeated by Marduk who was Enki's son and Jehovah's nephew.
As for Jesus he is a bastard child born out of wedlock, from the genetic essence of Nanna-Sin and his sister Inanna, who is the Queen of Heaven.
Jehovah's brother is Nergal, the god of the underworld, who we know as Satan> Negal married Queen Ereshkigal who is Inanna's dark twin and known in myth as the Gorgon.
The reason I hate the Messianic Kingdom with its ransom, is because it's a direct violation of the old covenant - ( not the Mosaic covenant, but the very first covenant where man was created as a slave and food source for the gods. His prayers are their food supply ), - established between the first gods and the Great Old Ones, those most ancient of ancient ones, who were ruled over under Tiamat.
Jehovah has directly violated that very first covenant and in so doing, broken divine law of his fathers.
These violations I am referring too, are something far, far, worse than sinning against the holy spirit and supporting Satan's cause. They go way beyond such biblical accusations. In the big scheme of things the bible's promise, plus Jehovah's kingdom verses Satan's, are small fish in the sea, as compared to what I am referring too with the covenant.
It goes far, far, deeper than what I have covered - but I've briefly outlined the story.
As I said I preach a faith that is accursed !
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William >Kimbal Summers • 2 months ago − + ⚑Thx for the info. You have gone from one deception to another lie/myth. I would not be quick to put down the intelligence of your former friends?! Judeo-Christianity is revelation from God. Your new, novel religion is even more false than WT. Jn. 14:6; Acts 4:12
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Kimbal Summers >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
John 14; 6 > “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
That’s part of the problem - Jesus is the only way - there is no choice. Free will has been taken away. "It's my way, or the highway" as far as Jesus is concerned.
And we all know "the highway is broad and spacious, leading to destruction and many are ones on it" - including me.
Acts 4:12> “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
In my so called deluded faith - you don’t need to be saved, as there is nothing to be saved from. Creation just is !
Imperfection is perfection. Evil is totally justified as a part of life. The darkness was around long before the light - Genesis 1:2-5.
I’d expect you as a non-believer ( from my perspective ) to denigrate another’s beliefs to a myth, without due cause. You know nothing about what you condemn, other than your taught it's a myth.
By what authority and right do you have to say your only way ? GOD’s ? Which god ?
By what authority and law does this god of yours make these rules ?
And If I disagree with your way and choose death - does it really matter ? Would anyone care ?
Will your god shed a tear over my stand for something I believe is a violation of what is due ?
If I am so wrong, then why does he not strike me dead, rather than idly stand by and let me spit venom into his eyeball, upon all who those who arrogantly question my so called foolish ignorance ?
For the same reason he lets Satan exist ! - Because it suits his agenda.
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Dave Reekie • 2 months ago − + ⚑davetrash.wordpress.com
William, you say that God is omniscient,
omnipotent, holy loving and good. My question is and always has been... why did
he allow Satan to rise up against him. Surely he would have nipped it in the
bud? I don't think that if I was a spirit creature seeing that happen, I would
have disagreed. I would have trusted my loving creators judgement on the matter.
Why also did satan think that he could take God on.. was there a flaw in the
"perfect creator" that he thought he could exploit? So many questions begin to
arise over this small area of biblical history that I doubt that any of it took
place. All we have to answer these questions is a book written by men who lived
in a time of war, rape, pillage and genocide...I do not buy in to it and I do
not want or need to feel wholly answerable to an aloof being that claims to care
for us. This same being who according to the bible allowed so much suffering in
the resultant 6-9 thousand years to atone for the sins of one man and to settle
a score over a matter that had nothing to do with humans. Oh yeah he will make
it right by giving us a paradise. If any of us disagree we die? Do as I say or
you will die... that's love right there. I am not sure but Hitler had a similar
message?
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William >Dave Reekie • 2 months ago − + ⚑Free will that is so easily revoked vs irrevocable is not genuine free will. Despite wrong views of God/theology, God is one who risks in love. A risk free universe would mean that God is a dictator or does not create at all. He will mitigate evil as much as possible and will triumph over it in the end (and hold accountable all who perpetuate it). Full answers will be revealed in the end with great minds giving credible answers (that atheists have more problems than solutions to) now. God is not on trial, but we are. His character and attributes are defensible despite heinous evil that creatures vs God are responsible for. http://www.amazon.com/Is-God-M...
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Dave Reekie >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Surely by stating that there is only one way to ultimately live ones life, the other option resulting in damnation. He would be descreetly removing free will. Free will would dictate a world where believers and non believers could live side by side (a utopian dream I know). When presented with a choice of his way or death.... Dictator. His way has never been proven as the right way? His existence also has yet to be proven, as a result any argument presented on his behalf has to be dismissed. IMHO
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William >Dave Reekie • 2 months ago − + ⚑Pascal's Wager ring a bell? Few understand the Moral Government of God, His role as Moral Governor, His love, His holiness. It is sad that the WT fiasco has poisoned so many from loving and serving the most beautiful, awesome, valuable being in the universe.
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Dave Reekie >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑surely pascals gambit proves my point, there is no proof of god existing and no proof that he doesn't other than his inaction . So to believe in god is the only option given that the consequences would be dire if he did exist. I prefer reason and logic... Which dictates that there are no deities of any kind given that I have never seen or been touched by one. If I was in gods position and had his power would it be too much of an ask that he paid me a visit and told me that he wanted me to follow him... I know that there is an argument to state that god does not need to visit us and that his awesomeness would be too much for us mere mortals. But surely with his power and skills he could figure a way out. A way that wasn't presented in the form of an ancient fallible book or tablet written by imperfect beings? The bible teaches that god cares and loves us all yet he can't get off his ass and talk to us in person. We are allegedly created in his image and that would be my choice of actions, surely he would have a better way. At the end of the day god does not exist and never has. Prove me wrong I dare you?
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William >Dave Reekie • 2 months ago − + ⚑Genesis 1:1 and gravity are both true even if you deny them.
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smmcroberts >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑Gen 1:6-10 denies Gen 1:1 (stating that God did not create the heavens and the Earth "in the beginning," but rather on the second and third day, respectively. And Gen 2:4 further denies that: stating that they both were created in a single day.)
Due to its self-contradictory nature, as soon as one is able to think critically about the Bible, one can't even believe that the first two chapters are true (much less the whole thing.)
But no one has ever denied gravity and lived long (at least not if they acted on that belief.)
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William >smmcroberts • 2 months ago − + ⚑The problem is with your wrong understanding of Genesis, not with the account itself. JWs were never taught to think and interpret, just be indoctrinated and spout it back.
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smmcroberts >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑William,
Oh, there’s a ton of problems with the account itself, as any unbiased examination will quickly reveal.
I would never have written that as a Witness. I am now able to see what the Bible actually says (rather than force-interpreting it into preconceived ideas) and to write logically about it only because I have taught myself to think after leaving all religion, not just the Witnesses.
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Kimbal Summers >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑I might inform you William & others on a few facts.
Jude quotes straight from the Jewish first book of Enoch, in verse 14 >
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”[e]
[e] Jude 1:15 From the Jewish First Book of Enoch (approximately the first century b.c.)
< while Genesis 1 is a rewrite form older texts such as the Enuma Enlish. Genesis is not an original document but a regurgitated one Moses took from older texts ( that Noah took with him in the Ark ) such as the books of Adam and Eve, the books of Yew, the cave of treasures, and the book of Enoch; to name a few.
( As for this being INSPIRED is hard to establish - as I can copy old texts off the internet - place them in a book - call it a Bible ( which means "little books" ) and say it was inspired by God - yeah and you would all think I am full of it ! ) Yet we do this with Genesis and 65 other canonically approved books.
Another example of a biblical anomaly is where Genesis speaks of not one but TWO Adams in Genesis 1:26 where GOD created the first one at the end of the 6th day and another second Adam was created at the beginning of the 7th day; in chapter 2:7.
-----------------------------
Genesis 1>
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the SIXTH DAY.
Genesis 2 >
New International Version (NIV)
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the SEVENTH DAY God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
Adam and Eve
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.
---------------------------------------------
So as others have said the Genesis account has a few anomalies in it - and Moses as its writer had to work from older texts that he had access too. Having 2 Adams ( one created at the end of the 6th day and the 2nd one created on the 7th day ) - would explain why there is no missing link, yet we have early anthropologist finds of man with no genetic lineage to us ( modern man ) today and biologically very different in many details. Likewise with many ancient animals.
So in summary - This does not mean the genesis account is wrong but that its not what we have always read it to mean. As to whether its inspired by God is another story. But why would any god idly stand by and let his divine word be read and interpreted incorrectly if he inspired it - unless he did not care and was not its author !
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Dave Reekie >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑There is evidence to support gravity, to be fair we do not fully understand it. But the beginning of the universe has far more scientific evidence that points towards god not being involved. The only evidence of gods creative efforts exist in the bible, as my position on the bible is hopefully clear coupled with clear critical thinking the account of genesis has to be discounted.
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William >Dave Reekie • 2 months ago − + ⚑Science and the Bible confirm the universe had a beginning. In my view, a jumbo jet requires intelligent design/designer/makers. In your view, it could just appear in working order by time, chance, matter (and where did the matter come from?). Something does not come from nothing. Life does not come from non-life. Intelligence and morality do not arise from rocks. God alone is uncreated Creator, the only logical explanation for reality.
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smmcroberts >William • 2 months ago − + ⚑William,
There is nothing “logical” about arguing for the premise that “something does not come from nothing” and then concluding that God (who came from nothing) exists. It is not a logically valid argument, so there’s no sense in going on to the next step of examining the premises. (But, I suspect you’ve been told this before.)
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Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
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What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? In fact, what do a lot of other religions believe in? Hocus pocus if you ask me. Either way, our ‘Beliefs’ category takes a look at various religious belief systems.
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Many say that the Jehovah’s Witness religion is a cult. Do you think it’s a cult? In this section, we’ve housed all the blog posts that show you if it is a cult or not. You might be shocked at what you find.
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The Watchtower Organisation looks after all the Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. The good news about the ‘Organisation’ is that it keeps having magic moments, allowing us to poke fun at it.
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This section is filled with the real life experiences of former and current Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s a real eye opener that shows you what various trials and tribulations Jehovah’s Witness go through.
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » Will Jehovah “Make it Right”?
Will Jehovah “Make it Right”?
Submitted by Steve on November 8, 2013 - 8:57 am 31 Comments
An image of a smiley faceWhenever we relate the wrongdoings of the Watchtower Society, a kindly Jehovah’s Witness will nearly always tell us not to harp on about “human imperfections” because “Jehovah will make it right.”
In response to this, my first impulse is to ask: If God’s organization on Earth is just as prone to human imperfections as worldly organizations, then what distinguishes it as godly? But that’s a question for another day.
What I want to examine here is the notion that “Jehovah will make it right.” You see, I’ve never seen that as an adequate excuse for the existence of wrongdoing. Let me explain by taking a non-religious example.
Let’s say that a vulnerable, innocent young child is sexually molested by a depraved maniac who then attempts to beat him/her to death, but fails: leaving the child not only traumatized but brain damaged and suffering a lifetime of chronic pain as well. Can someone please tell me how to “make this right”? What could possibly make it right? Money? Punishing the criminal? Keeping the victim on drugs their whole life to take away the pain? What about the psychological trauma? Can therapy “make it right”?
No, none of the suggested solutions could possibly “make it right.” The most they could do is try to make the victim as comfortable as possible given the circumstances.
But wait, you say: what if we could make the victim well and give him/her an eternity in paradise? Wouldn’t that make it right? Well, no; it wouldn’t. The memory of that event will have shaped his/her personality and have left life-long psychological scars. What if we heal those as well, you ask, and erase the memory from the victims mind? Wouldn’t they eventually learn to trust again and find peace and love amongst other perfect people? I can only imagine this happening by reshaping his/her (and everyone else) into some sort of standardized “perfect person” in which everyone becomes identical (with all past traumas erased, and all personalities remolded to a norm with no reference to how their lives originally shaped them.) I hope a world filled with identical robots is not anyone’s idea of paradise; it’s certainly not mine.
No, there could only be one way to “make it right” without destroying personalities and ending up with an excruciatingly boring eternity amongst identical people. That way would be to go back in time and prevent the incident from occurring. But to change one incident in the past is to affect a multitude of other things, and radically change the present (as science-fiction writers have frequently and correctly pointed out). And, if God were willing and capable of manipulating the past, why wouldn’t he have just prevented the crime from occurring in the first place? Since he didn’t prevent it the first time around, it is even more unlikely that he would manipulate time and prevent it the second time around.
An image of the "No Blood" card Jehovah's Witnesses need to have on them at all timesNow let’s take an example from the context of a Jehovah’s Witness life. Mary lost her son as a result of obeying the Watchtower commandment to “abstain from blood transfusions.” It’s hard to imagine the grief this caused unless you are a parent whose child has died due to your erroneous beliefs. Her son was denied the remainder of his childhood, as well as adulthood. Mary was denied watching her son grow into manhood. Those years can never be replaced. Mary no longer believes the Watchtower’s tales of resurrection, so there is no comfort for her in such lies. Even if she did still believe, there would be no real comfort in looking forward to receiving a substitute child: a newly created “person” injected with the memories of her son. Her son himself is gone forever, and a future surrogate cannot “make it right.”
Here’s another true-life Jehovah’s Witness example: My sister was unjustly disfellowshipped. Can Jehovah “make it right?” Can he restore the 30 years of friendships she missed out on due to the Watchtower’s policy of shunning? It just so happens that her best Witness friend (and former room-mate and pioneering partner) eventually “saw the light” and left the Watchtower religion and contacted my sister. They renewed their friendship after 30 years, only to have it end a few years later with her friend’s untimely death. But those 30 years of shunning and being made to feel like dirt cannot be “made right;” the psychological damage has been done, the loneliness has been endured, and we can never have those years back again.
No, my friends, not even a god can make wrongdoings right. So the next time you hear this excuse, please don’t accept it: challenge it. Ask: “How could this ever be made right?” If there were a loving God looking out for us [or for "his organization"] wrongdoing would never occur in the first place.
There was a great science-fiction movie that came out a few years ago called Minority Report in which they had developed a method of predicting murders. When they knew a murder was about to be committed, the police would take immediate steps to prevent it (usually catching the murderer “red-handed”), and then would lock up the would-be perpetrator. Well, of course that’s what any ethical person would do. But we are to imagine a God of perfect morals who sees (and foresees) murders, rapes, and child molestation – and does absolutely nothing to prevent them or rescue the victims! Instead, he sits silently and observes the crimes as they occur. So this is a god who is less moral than we are. Yet this is the same god we are supposed to believe will somehow “make it right.” I’m not buying it: no sensible person could.
The fact that wrongdoing does occur, the fact that the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses are widely known as a “paradise for pedophiles” as they’re allowed to hide behind the Watchtower Organization’s two witness rule, and the fact that the suicide rate is higher amongst Witnesses than non-Witnesses due to their disfellowshipping policy, comprise overwhelming evidence that this cannot possibly be a loving God’s “organization on Earth.”
But, you say: this is all just the price we pay for having followed Satan; we must bear the consequences of that until such time as Jehovah turns the tables and takes over the world. Then our blissful eternity will eventually make our present woes seem irrelevant. That reminds me of my favorite novel: Dostoevsky’s The Brother’s Karamazov. There the question is asked: what price are we willing to pay for future bliss? Think back to my first example of that young child who was raped and beaten. Do you accept that as the price of admission into the New World? Or would you say “No! The price is too high”? Personally, I agree with Dostoevsky: I have turned my ticket back in and refused to enter a New World which requires that we sacrifice our children to gain admittance. Those who can accept such a deal have lost their humanity, as well as my respect.

Tags: Abstain from Blood, Child Abuse, Does God Exist?, Jehovah, Watchtower Organisation

    
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Loni Hull • 3 months ago − + ⚑Well written, and the logic and references are spot on.
There is another way to think about this: imagine that you live many decades and as much as a century and a half after events upon which you wish to build the foundation of a major religion. Much is at stake, not least of which is unification of a realm that has seen far too many bloody skirmishes between pagans and early (numerous) Christian sects (who in the second century, BTW, did not believe in or preach a messiah-figure even remotely like the guy we've inherited since the Council of Nicea).
So you take out the ol' Septuagint and mine it for every possible text that might justify the claim that (John...hmm, no...Zechariah; no, wait, here's the most generic possible name from the period...) Yeshua! - a rebel son of the Jews who bravely condemned Pharisaical 1st-century Judaism and was martyred (I know, I know...Justin Martyr hadn't even been born yet. Or had he? *Wink wink nudge nudge*), was actually the Mashiach (Messiah), the king favored by God in Hebrew wishhopeprophecy (TM) to lift the Jewish nation to its rightful place as God's chosen world power (since Rome is now in power, you'll no doubt want to tone down that last bit, and maybe even have Yeshua invite filthy Goyim to become his followers.
But how to get pesky sun-worshiping pagans to fall in line and join up? Let's see, gotta build common ground... Ah, here we go: pagans totally dig Mithras, who is really just a gussied-up Apollo, so let's make Yeshua a synthesis of several things: king, judge, wise and perfect man, and Mithras/Apollo.
According to one very nicely composed site (http://www.jesusneverexisted.c..., "The winning ingredient of the Christians was to bring this new god to life by setting him in a Jewish pageant, clobbered together from plagiarized episodes of Old Testament scripture (over 400 direct quotes) and well-worn pagan motifs. To Constantine the superstition was useful.
"The various 'biographies' (gospels) were never fully harmonized; it took over three centuries of violence to more or less agree (upon) the underpinning 'theology' but then – WHAT A SUCCESS STORY!"
And that's exactly how Jesus landed in our laps.
I can't wait for him to ride in from heaven tomorrow (or the next day for sure) on his horse, with a sword protruding from his mouth. I sure hope he doesn't chip a tooth.
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Login close  Jehovah's Witness BlogBlogAboutContactAre Jehovah’s Witnesses “Free?”
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
When was the city of Jerusalem destroyed – 607 BCE or 587 BCE?
This debate has been brewing for so long. Thankfully, we have the definitive proof of when the City of Jerusalem was destroyed. I can safely say the 607 BCE apologists will be unhappy with our findings, but then again, who cares. This is only a short blog post as we’ve decided to give you two [...]
Little Known Miracles of the Bible: Exodus
Most people are familiar with the miracles of parting the Red Sea; surviving three days in a fish’s belly (and being spewed out good as new); walking on unfrozen water; resurrecting the dead, etc. These have been debunked to death, so in this series we’re going to take a look at some of [...]
PrevNext123Exposing the truth
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JW Beliefs
What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe? In fact, what do a lot of other religions believe in? Hocus pocus if you ask me. Either way, our ‘Beliefs’ category takes a look at various religious belief systems.
Cult
Many say that the Jehovah’s Witness religion is a cult. Do you think it’s a cult? In this section, we’ve housed all the blog posts that show you if it is a cult or not. You might be shocked at what you find.
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The Watchtower Organisation looks after all the Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. The good news about the ‘Organisation’ is that it keeps having magic moments, allowing us to poke fun at it.
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Bible » Bible Prophecy: The Jesus Years
Bible Prophecy: The Jesus Years
Submitted by Steve on November 5, 2013 - 7:24 pm 2 Comments
bible-prophecy-JesusYearsJehovah’s Witnesses aren’t the only ones who are expecting Jesus’ prophecies to come true. Regular Christians are right there with them (though they’re not so prone to give the day and hour of their fulfillment.)
One JWB visitor put it this way:
“Just as all the predictions for Jesus’ first coming came true, so will the ones about His second coming.”
But what if we were to find that Jesus did not fulfill any prophecies? Would that put a damper on our confidence in the prophecies he gave? And what if some of the prophecies that he made have already proven to be false?
Those are the questions we’ll have to deal with after the following investigations into Bible prophecy:
Jesus Christ and the Virgin Birth
This image shows Mary holding baby JesusDid Jesus fulfill a prophecy about having a virgin birth?
Also, who on earth is Immanuel and how does this guy fit into the Jesus Christ story?
Find out the [not so] surprising answer in part one in our series.
Click here to read the Jesus Christ and the Virgin Birth page.

When was Jesus Christ Born?
This is an image of Jesus Christ's birthIf Jesus was born, then he was born in a certain time and place. But do you know when and where? Does anyone?
Join us as we examine the first “proof-text” that the Watchtower gives us in part two. Click here to see when Jesus Christ was actually born.

Does the Dividing of Jesus Christ’s Garments Fulfill Prophecy?
This image shows the Roman soldiers casting lots over which one will walk away with Jesus Christ's garmentsPoor Jesus; as if he didn’t have enough stress, the soldiers divided up his garments. Were they unknowingly fulfilling prophecy in so doing? Only if you believe in unicorns!
Find out why in part three as we all sing the blues. Click here to read the Y-Fronts Prophecy.
Breaking Jesus Christ’s Legs
This is an image showing Jesus Christ hung on a stake, not a crossDid the soldiers further play out the scriptural script by stabbing Jesus but not breaking his legs?
Well, no, they didn’t. You must understand just how difficult it was to find good, talented actors back in the early A.D’s. Check out the Breaking of Jesus Christ’s Legs page here.

Thirty Pieces of Silver
This image shows 30 pieces of silver, which were used to betray Jesus ChristIf you believe in Bible prophecy, it actually proves that Jesus Christ was not the Messiah! Shock, horror! No really, it does. We even show you why.
Still don’t believe us? Well take a look at our 30 Pieces of Silver section where we examine the final proof-text supplied by the Watchtower Organization.
We also throw in a bonus bible prophecy to boot!

Jesus as Interpreter
interpreter_jesusThe Governing Body members aren’t the only ones who can interpret biblical prophecy. According to the Bible, Jesus himself once took a stab at it. Find out if this interpretation fared any better than the Watchtower’s attempts in our Jesus as Interpreter section.
You may be surprised!

The End is Nigh!
This image shows a cartoon about the end of the worldWhen it came to Biblical prophecy, the inventors of Jesus were no slackers. They put many prophecies into their hero’s mouth.
Come along with us as we examine some of these epic fails in our final episode in this series: Jesus as Prophet.

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Arno du Toit: @noble et al: It has always been an enigma for me (even while active in the Society) WHY there are... Arno du Toit: Believe it or not, but it was this very same Proclaimers Book that helped me getting OUT of the Society... Alex James: Elders put her in the preaching work with a man that they knew had fondled his own stepdaughter but they... Andres Torres: This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said. Andres Torres: They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It’s like Marley said... Featured Articles
Diary of an Armageddon Survivor
Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake?
Guide to Jehovah's Witness Beliefs
Significant Trees in Eden?
Popular Articles
Issues with Jehovah's Witnesses
JW Dating Advice
The Evil Ted – JW Urban Legend
What do JW's Believe?
Bible Prophecy
1. Jesus Christ and the Virgin Birth
2. When was Jesus Christ Born?
3. Jesus Christ's Garments Prophecy
4. Breaking Jesus Christ's Legs
5. 30 Pieces of Silver
Jehovah's Witness Funnies
Apostate Test
Jehovah's Witness Chat-up Lines
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Loni Hull • 3 months ago − + ⚑Who said I was an atheist? And no, there is no evidence - at least not any that a reputable archeologist can accept - of a singular man-god named Jesus who was killed by the Romans for sedition. The name Jesus (in 1c.e. it was Yeshua, an Aramaic adaptation of Joshua) did not exist at the time your messiah is claimed to have been born (a date about which the gospels offer ridiculously contradictory statements), but "Yeshua" was as common as John is today. If I was going to invent a messiah one or two hundred years from now, I would say, "How could you miss him? His name was John. He was born in New York, raised in Denver, and then was wrongfully arrested and executed." Good luck proving me a liar...which is exactly what the Jesus myth-makers were thinking when they gave the name to their Apollian demi-god centuries after he was supposed to have lived. You can find all of this information with a few keystrokes. Why haven't you? How can you call yourself honest if you won't consider evidence against your beliefs?
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William • 3 months ago − + ⚑Sad, but true. JWs have terrible pseudo-scholarship. 1914 is one of many of their wrong dates based on wrong speculations. This does not mean that there is not biblical, eschatological truth that will come to pass in reality. Just as all the predictions for Jesus' first coming came true, so will the ones about His second coming (which will be yet future, visible, not invisible in 1914, a date that was changed from earlier 1800s dates). The maze of Mormonism is bizarre, but so is the Dating Game of JWs.
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Loni Hull >William • 3 months ago − + ⚑William, there isn't even good evidence that a singular first century activist-prophet named Yeshua, or Joshua, or Jesus, depending on what language you prefer, existed at all, and what little does exist is entirely self-contradictory and likely spurious to boot. To claim that there were predictions about the coming of someone who was almost completely invented at the Council of Nicea tells us much about the quality of your own scholarship. Write me a paper about the similarities between the mythologies of Ra, Apollo, and Jesus and we'll judge your scholarship by the results. I guarantee that by the time you're done you won't waste any more of your life waiting for horses in the clouds...
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William >Loni Hull • 3 months ago − + ⚑Even the most strident atheists usually are not stupid enough to question the historicity of Christ?!
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smmcroberts >William • 3 months ago − + ⚑As a "strident atheist" with an IQ of 135, I beg to disagree with your statement, William.
Up till now I've admired how you've refrained from personal attacks. Let's not start calling each other "stupid."
There are very good reasons--as Loni has pointed out--for questioning the historicity of a son of the ancient Hebrew god of war Jehovah. Just as I'm sure you'd readily admit there are good reasons for questioning the historicity of Hercules (the supposed son of the god Zeus) and Krishna (who was the supposed god Vishnu himself descended into the womb of Devaki and born as her son.)
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William >smmcroberts • 3 months ago − + ⚑I do not think you are necessarily intellectually stupid and apologize for the ad hominem attack (though it was a generic comment vs personal attack). I do think it is idiotic for a stupid or intelligent person to deny the historicity of Christ, but not that of the FSM (flying spaghetti monster). When the Bible talks about fools saying there is no God, it refers to moral vs intellectual fools in the Hebrew. I would also tell a math teacher it is stupid to deny that 2+2=5, so don't take it personally.
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smmcroberts >William • 3 months ago − + ⚑Understood, William. I have used the "generic" stupid (as opposed to the "personal" stupid) myself.
You, of course, are entitled to your opinion as to what is stupid. In my opinion it is stupid to believe in something extraordinary for which there is no adequate evidence.
You will probably say that there IS adequate evidence. But I have examined such claims and found them wanting. The record is full of obvious forgeries. No undisputed mention of Jesus exists till many decades after his supposed death (in spite of a plethora of historians in that period.) Even when the Gospels finally do get written--by we know not whom--the authors use old borrowed legends and miraculous tales in manufacturing their contradictory pseudo-biographies. Then, instead of giving their "son of God" something original to say, they have him deliver hoary messages often filled with bad advice (e.g. "turn the other cheek to your abusers." and "take no thought for tomorrow.")
Finally: I don't think it's "morally foolish" to withhold belief in the immoral god Jehovah anymore than you would think it was morally foolish to withhold belief in the immoral god Zeus. In fact, I would say that believing that the monstrous actions of Jehovah--as related in the Bible--are what constitute a "God of love" would be the height of moral folly.
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William >smmcroberts • 3 months ago − + ⚑Let me help: Matthew was written by Matthew; Mark by Mark, Luke by Luke, John by John, Romans by Paul, etc. Hebrews is one of the few books we do not know the authorship of. If you applied your criteria to any less established issue with antiquity, you would believe virtually nothing.
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smmcroberts >William • 3 months ago − + ⚑That's funny, William. But I think the Gospels were written by Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and Zeppo. I have just as much evidence for this assertion as you do for yours.
Let's take a look at the first one: The Gospel of Matthew is anonymous: the author is not named within the text, nowhere does he claim to have been an eyewitness to the events he relates. In the book, Matthew is referred to in the third person (and the superscription "according to Matthew" was never a part of his book.)
It was Papias in the second century who first ascribed the work to Matthew. But how would Papias know? Matthew would've been long dead.
The book itself was probably penned between 80-90 CE according to biblical scholars(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.... If Jesus was born around 4 BCE, began his ministry around the age of 30, and the apostles he "called" were adults, then Matthew would have been at least seventy-five years old when the book ascribed to him was written. Life-expectancy at that time was 45-47 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.... So Matthew would most likely have been dead for decades before the book was written.
Also, if Matthew had witnessed this miracle-worker first-hand why would he wait half a century before making a record of it--knowing he would likely die long before reaching his 75th birthday? And why would no one else mention Jesus in the interim? Do you suppose that mass resurrection (with "many witnesses") and feeding 5,000 people, etc., were not newsworthy items at the time?
One could say similar things about the other Gospels: all of them are anonymous, and written too late to have been authored by the apostles. It is only a late, highly dubious tradition that assigns them authorship of the Gospels. Your baloney-detection meter should have sounded loud and long when you first heard this traditional claim. But don't feel bad; mine didn't either until I checked the facts.
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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten Mod >smmcroberts • 3 months ago − + ⚑I see a trend setting in with these mythological figurines...
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Funnies » Mother-in-Law Chronicles: 1914
Mother-in-Law Chronicles: 1914
Submitted by Teeny on October 29, 2013 - 11:26 pm 13 Comments
Welcome to the Mother-In-Law Chronicles. This episode looks at 1914Mother-in-Laws. A lot of us have them; most of us wish we didn’t.
Welcome to the first in what could be a long series of posts titled Mother-in-Law Chronicles.
In this series, I’ll publish the funny conversations I have with my lovely Jehovah’s Witness mother-in-law. Being a 60 year old mother-in-law and throwing the Jehovah’s Witness element into the mix isn’t always a recipe for world peace. She’s also Cypriot. I’ll get the Xanax.
In this episode, I document a recent conversation with my mother-in-law where we briefly debated the important Jehovah’s Witness date of 1914.
I don’t know about you, but I find that 1914 brings out the best in all Jehovah’s Witnesses as the majority of them really have no idea how the Organisation gets to 1914, even though a lot of us know what the significance of 1914 is.
Enjoy!
Me: So tell me why you believe that 1914 is a pivotal date in human history.
MiL: Errrr.
Me: Go on.
MiL: Because the bible says so.
Me: Really? The date 1914 is mentioned in the bible?
MiL: Well…
Me: Hmm. I had a bet with your daughter that you wouldn’t have a clue why you believe in 1914. I’ve just won €10.00
MiL: No, I do know!
Me: Go on then.
MiL: It’s got something to do with the tree being cut down and 2,520 days.
Me: You still haven’t explained to me fully where 1914 comes from. Funny that, seeing as it’s the most important date in your religions theology.
MiL: World War One happened!!!
Me: And the Bible talks about World War One happening, doesn’t it?
MiL: Yes! Err. I think so.
Me: You’re digging a hole. Be careful or you’ll find water.
MiL: Water?
Me: How long have you been a Jehovah’s Witness?
MiL: Since 1980.
Me: Hmm, interesting. I bet you can tell me why 25th December is important?
MiL: Yes, it’s Christmas, but Jesus wasn’t born then. Also, why do you think 1914 is the most important date in my religion? It isn’t.
Me: Congratulations! You’ve hit oil.
So what have we learnt from this? Not much, other than the fact that most Jehovah’s Witnesses have really no idea what their religion is pushing. If you’re interested in finding out why 1914 is important to all Jehovah’s Witnesses and vitally important to the Jehovah’s Witness theology, take a look at my quick summary of how we get to 1914.

Tags: 1914, Bible Dates, Jehovah's Witness Dates, Mother-In-Law

    
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smmcroberts • 3 months ago − + ⚑Great post, Jaymes! The WT paragraph is a shining example of how not to think.
I especially like this part: "They were pleased with a small band of loyal Bible Students who showed that their heart was with Jehovah." Where, oh where is the evidence for this outlandish claim? An invisible god and his son "were pleased" with this particular group in this particular year--anyone could make such a claim. But I hope that people have enough sense to question all such claims, and follow the critical thinking skills you have outlined. If they do, they will reach a conclusion very much at odds with the Watchtower's.
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Are Jehovah’s Witnesses free? What do I mean by “Free?” Well, let’s hear what the Watchtower Society says about its members freedom. Any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is free to express their feelings and to ask questions. If a person changes their mind about Bible-based t [...]
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Cult » An Example of Critical Thinking
An Example of Critical Thinking
Submitted by Teeny on October 28, 2013 - 6:46 pm One Comment
An image showing the course of action a critical thinking person will takeMy name is Jaymes and I used to be a Jehovah’s Witness. I was born into the Watchtower merry-go-round and lived as a faithful Jehovah’s Witness for the first 28 years of my life.
If I am honest, I do need to tell you that certain facets of the Witness theology never made sense to me. My mind just wouldn’t accept some of the teachings, no matter how hard I tried to take them in.
I have a feeling you too have also had issues when it comes to digesting some truths. For most, the blood issue was a hard one to stomach. I mean, if we can accept blood fractions, why can’t we donate our blood so that others can take fractions from it and live?
For me, I simply couldn’t get the whole post-Armageddon scenarios. For instance, I remember my mother telling me that Satan and his demons would be destroyed by Jehovah after the thousand year reign and that after that period of time, all surviving humans would become perfect and live for eternity, never putting a foot wrong. This just didn’t wash well with me.
Me: So you’re saying that I would never, ever ever have a bad thought again?
Mother: No, you wouldn’t.
Me: Okay, but let’s just say I did, what would happen to me?
Mother: Jehovah would kill you immediately.
As I said, that bit of theology didn’t work on me. No matter how mother dressed it up, my mind wouldn’t accept it. There were a lot more that I simply couldn’t, or wouldn’t understand, like how the kangaroos got to Australia after the flood, how “New Light™” could flip-flop, and worst of all, how on earth did we know we were the right religion.
In 2008, I decided to delve deeper into my religion. I had told myself that I should write down all my doubts and try and find the answers using the Watchtower Library. Something, however, pushed me to Google. “Oh what harm can come of it? If I find an apostate website, I’ll simply see what rubbish they’ve got to say and ignore it, after all, being an apostate is probably akin to living a nasty, lonely life.” Yes, I did think like that, and to a certain degree, I was right; after all, you can see what devilish acts we apostates get up to by reading my diary here.
After spending what seemed to be an age looking through Google and the apostate dross, I found a site (that no longer exists unfortunately), which discussed critical thinking. It said something so simple that I’ll never forget it:
When you come across something that appears to be factual, pause for a second. Take a look at it again and ask yourself if you think it’s true because you’ve heard this very same thing from a close friend or group of people many times before, or because the source providing this information simply can’t be wrong. Take a minute to break down what it is you’ve read and ask yourself the following questions: Have I properly investigated what I’ve read or been told? Have you seen any reasonable evidence? Have you reviewed all the possible outcomes? And finally, have you fully analysed the situation.
After fully breaking down what you’ve been told or read and you’re sure that it’s correct because all the corroborating evidence points to it being so, you’ve critically analysed the situation. However, if you’ve broken down the content you’ve read many times over and can’t find any evidence for it, you need to ask yourself why there isn’t any evidence. What are you missing? In most cases, you won’t be missing anything at all, but in some cases, you’ll look back on what you’ve read and think to yourself “how could I have been such a fool for believing that!”
I decided to take their advice. The consequences were catastrophic! After breaking everything down, I had found zero evidence for anything the Watchtower was telling me. I was distraught.
Critical Thinking Exercise
I want us to take the following exercise, but before doing so, let’s see what Wikipedia says about critical thinking:
Critical thinking is a way of deciding whether a claim is true, partially true, or false. Critical thinking is a process that leads to skills that can be learned, mastered and used. Critical thinking is a tool by which one can come about reasoned conclusions based on a reasoned process. This process incorporates passion and creativity, but guides it with discipline, practicality and common sense. – Wikipedia
Let’s take a look at the Watchtower, Study Edition of July 15th, 2013 (download the PDF from here). I want us to focus on paragraph 12, which is on page 22. I’ve copied the contents of the paragraph below for you:
When did Jesus appoint the faithful slave over his domestics? To answer that, we need to go back to 1914 — the beginning of the harvest season. As we learned earlier, at that time many groups claimed to be Christian. From which group would Jesus select and appoint the faithful slave? That question was answered after he and his Father came and inspected the temple, or spiritual arrangement for worship, from 1914 to the early part of 1919. (Mal. 3:1) They were pleased with a small band of loyal Bible Students who showed that their heart was with Jehovah and his Word. Of course, they needed some cleansing, but they humbly responded during a brief period of testing and refining. (Mal. 3:2-4) Those faithful Bible Students were true Christian wheat. In 1919, a time of spiritual revival, Jesus selected capable anointed brothers from among them to be the faithful and discreet slave and appointed them over his domestics.
Fair enough. The Watchtower carefully explains that Jesus Christ appointed the Faithful and Discreet Slave in 1919. So we’re sure it’s 1919, right?
Wrong! Most Jehovah’s Witnesses at this point would be nodding in agreement with the Watchtower instead of actually asking how the Watchtower knows 1919 was the year.
A critical thinker would dissect this paragraph, which is what we’re going to do now.
The second sentence says that “we need to go back to 1914″ as that’s the “beginning of the harvest season”. Okay, says who? Where’s the evidence that 1914 is the commencement of the harvest season? Moving on…
Jesus and his father would inspect the temple to see which group of Christians was on the straight and narrow. I’m sorry, but once again, I need to ask what evidence there is to corroborate this. Well, the Watchtower have given us a scripture; Malachi 3:1. Let’s turn to that as it’s a piece of evidence we’ll need to look at.
“Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies. – Malachi 3:1 – New World Translation
I’m still none the wiser. What has this scripture got to do with 1914? Malachi doesn’t mention 1914. Surely he was talking about an inspection that would take place during his time; thousands of years before 1914.
A critical thinker at this point disregards this entire paragraph as it’s simply not based on any evidence whatsoever. Can you imagine a court case in which the legal defence read out an alibi from any film script and claimed that alibi was in fact talking about their client, thus dissolving him/her of any guilt? It’s the exact same thing! There’s no link between the scripture in Malachi and 1914. None. Nada.
To finalise this exercise, let’s take a look at the Watchtower’s conclusion. It says, and I quote “They were pleased with a small band of loyal Bible Students who showed that their heart was with Jehovah and his Word. Of course, they needed some cleansing, but they humbly responded during a brief period of testing and refining. (Mal. 3:2-4)”
Eh? Am I missing something? Where’s the connection between Jesus and Jehovah picking the Bible Students and Malachi chapter 3, verses 2 to 4? Let’s take a look, shall we?
 (2) “But who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. (3) And he will sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and will cleanse the sons of Le′vi; and he will clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness. (4) And the gift offering of Judah and of Jerusalem will actually be pleasing to Jehovah, as in the days of long ago and as in the years of antiquity.
Confused? I know I am. Firstly, the scripture is clearly talking about the tribe of Le′vi, as seen in verse 3. Unless these Bible Students in 1919 were located somewhere in the Middle East, I highly doubt they were the “Chosen Ones”, unless they had enough clout to offer up the lands of Judah and Jerusalem.
As I said, a standard Jehovah’s Witness will read the paragraph in the Watchtower and glaze over the facts. Unfortunately, these are the facts you shouldn’t be overlooking, especially one that proves whether or not the Jehovah’s Witnesses are the right religion. Do you see how important this paragraph is? If this fails, all Jehovah’s Witness theology falls flat on its face.
Before I go, please read through this Watchtower paragraph with a member of your family or a friend that’s a Jehovah’s Witness. I would love to know what they make of it.

Tags: 1919, Critical Thinking Skills, Malachi, Watchtower July 15th 2013

    
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Arno du Toit: @noble et al: It has always been an enigma for me (even while active in the Society) WHY there are... Arno du Toit: Believe it or not, but it was this very same Proclaimers Book that helped me getting OUT of the Society... Alex James: Elders put her in the preaching work with a man that they knew had fondled his own stepdaughter but they... Andres Torres: This!!! What a horrendous thing for her to have said. Andres Torres: They are physically free, but for the majority, their thoughts are caged. It’s like Marley said... Featured Articles
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William • 3 months ago− + ⚑The problem is not with God and the Bible, but with wrong views of God and the Bible. The New Atheist-like negative comments are not defensible anymore than the NWT twisting of Scripture, especially as relating to the Deity of Christ. There are many credible translations done by qualified translation committees, but NWT did not have credible scholarship and any revisions are cosmetic that still leave a sectarian, biased perversion on too many points.
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smmcroberts >William • 3 months ago− + ⚑I'll bet I can defend atheist-like comments till the cows come home, William. Not that I expect you'll believe me, anymore than you'd expect me to believe your defending the notion that god had a son who was god.
I think we all realize that there are more credible translations (some of which I quoted.) But a credible translation does not render the content credible.
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William >smmcroberts • 3 months ago− + ⚑We should establish a credible translation even if we are an atheist. We should also interpret this good translation properly. I agree we do not have to accept the Bible as the Word of God, but we should at least not misunderstand/misrepresent it like JWs do. We agree that JWs are deceived, but disagree as to the reality/truth of God. Fine.
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smmcroberts >William • 3 months ago− + ⚑William,
I will happily second that "Fine;" I am in complete agreement with your last post.
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Jaymes "Teeny Pyjamas" Payten Mod >smmcroberts • 3 months ago− + ⚑Hear hear.
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Guest • 3 months ago− + ⚑The other day, I noticed some fellow students on my Homeschool's forum talking about this particular subject. I thought about interjecting with my own opinion, but I would've probably gotten suspended if I had said anything. Not surprisingly,there seems to be a whole bunch JWs who use the same homeschooling program as I do,and they're all ludicrously report happy. Go figure.
As for me,I wish I were at all surprised by this nonsense. I think I might inspect my mothers new copy later for the lolz.
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » New World Translation » The Revised New World Translation: A Tarnished Sword
The Revised New World Translation: A Tarnished Sword
Submitted by Steve on October 28, 2013 - 11:28 am 6 Comments
This is an image of the newly revised Jehovah's Witness BibleThe New New World Translation, is hot off the press, and you can download it here!
This publication, with its silver cover, has been dubbed by Jehovah’s Witnesses: “the Silver Sword.” I see that as very fitting. Because, unless you are into fencing, sword swallowing, or happen to be the queen of England about to knight one of your favorites, swords have but one purpose: to kill people.
The Watchtower religion has long been preoccupied with death. While their favorite images will always be of their future-selves frolicking on their estates in the “New World:” eating grapes and petting lions; their second-favorite images all center around the mass murder that makes up their longed-for Armageddon (where swords figure prominently.)
Jesus reputedly said that he came “to bring a sword” by setting family members against one another (Mt 10:34-37), and this is certainly something the Watchtower has excelled at with its shunning policies.
Finally, the Bible relates numerous graphic tales of “God’s people” running their swords through all and sundry1 making the sword appellation all the more apropos.
What’s New in the Revised Jehovah’s Witness Bible?
So, what’s new about this “silver sword:” the new New World Translation? They tell us they’ve replaced the 1950′s language with up-to-date English. I assume they mean American English. So, if we imagine a passage such as the following from one of Paul’s epistles:
“Greetings, brothers. I admonish you to know this truth: sinners are damned, and the fool has said in his heart there is no God. But the family of believers will be saved.”
In the old New World Translation, with its fifties lingo we might’ve seen this translated something like:
“What’s buzzin, cuzzin? Like I got the word from the bird that sinners are nowheresville and atheists are a nosebleed. Believers be crazy cool: like wow, man!”
But in the contemporary American English of the new NWT we’re likely to read:
“Wha’s up, homies? It’s like styll that yo sinners be merked, an’ atheists are like: duh? Such derps, dude. Believers be my mains; real swag! They’re like–. You know what I’m sayin’?”
That’s all well and good, I guess. But, did they “strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel?” (Mt. 23:24) This was their chance to right some major wrongs of the old NWT, and it seems they blew it.
Sorry; We Still Can’t Get God’s Name Right!
Why didn’t they replace “Jehovah” with “Yahweh:” the name that the appendix in the old New World Translation told us was more accurate?2 The appendix in the new New World Translation no longer admits that Yahweh is more accurate: it simply excuses the mistranslation by telling us that the name Jehovah is “familiar:” having been known and used for centuries3. When I first read that excuse I have to admit that I called the translators by another familiar name that I won’t repeat here. But if God’s name really was all that “familiar” then I guess the Witnesses oft-repeated claim of being the only ones “making Jehovah’s name known” is false; by their own admission it had been known, used, and “familiar” for centuries.
“Allah” is a more familiar name for God, and was invented way longer ago than the name Jehovah. In addition, it doesn’t have the occult connections of the name Jehovah. So, if we’re going to mistranslate YHWH, then, using Watchtower logic, Allah is a better candidate than Jehovah. Do you think they’ll be switching over to it in the next revision?
Other Problems with no Solutions
Amongst numerous other problems with the old NWT, which the translators of the new NWT did not see fit to mend, here are a few highlights.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”
– Luke 14:26 (NWT, 2013 ed.)
A footnote to the above verse still tells us that “hate” really means “love to a lesser degree.” But then if that’s how we would put it in contemporary American English, why doesn’t the new NWT go ahead and translate it that way? Could it be that the original language really does mean “hate” and they’re not bold enough to over-ride the Bible’s real message in this instance: settling for a mere footnote to try and whitewash its immorality?
Of course, we still have the Watchtower’s insistence on Jesus being “a god” in John 1:1, whilst remaining a “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6. Did we even need to bother looking it up?
The new New World Translation still has the inserted words “sorts of” in Romans 5:18 where equivalent words do not exist in the Greek:
“So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life.”
This renders the meaning quite different from what was intended, as is shown in the same verse in other translations such as the English Standard Version:
“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.”
In Russell’s day the Watchtower used the above verse as proof that everyone would make it into the Millennium4. But since the Watchtower now teaches that everyone except Jehovah’s Witnesses will be destroyed in Armageddon prior to the Millennium (and further: that most of the Bible’s promises to believers only apply to their “anointed class”5), they have once again allowed their beliefs to corrupt their Bible translation by changing “all men” to “all sorts of men.”
The first glaring biblical contradiction I ever had pointed out to me was a comparison between the following verses describing the same event:
“And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah.”
– 2 Samuel 24:1 (ASV)
“And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.”
– 1 Chronicles 21:1 (ASV)
[The new NWT says basically the same thing: "Then Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to number Israel."
-- 1 Chronicles 21:1 (NWT, 2013 ed.)]
This is revealing, because Chronicles was a rewrite of the Israelites’ history–written after they had been in exile to Babylon. In Babylon at that time the religion was Zoroastrianism: known for its innovative idea that God was all good, and evil came from an adversary (Hebrew: “Satan”) of God6. When the time came around to rewrite their history, the writers of Chronicles evidently used this new idea of an adversary instead of leaving the record to incriminate Jehovah for forcing David into the “sin” of census-taking. This is only revealing, of course, if the translators of your Bible version are honest enough to translate what it actually says. The old NWT failed in this, and so does the new NWT by replacing “he” with “one:”
“The anger of Jehovah again blazed against Israel when one incited David against them, saying: “Go, take a count of Israel and Judah.”
–2 Samuel 24:1 (NWT, 2013 ed.)
Spurious…
The translators of the new NWT have removed some “spurious” passages such as where Jesus says his followers will be known for handling deadly snakes and drinking poison without harm (Mark 16:17-18.) I’m not so sure about the validity of their reasons for removal, but I think removing such nonsense is a good thing; we’ve had enough of Baptists dying from these biblical procedures–not that Baptists are likely to read the new NWT. Though this still leaves an equally bad passage in Luke 10:19: “Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you.” [The thing is, though: if we were to remove all of the nonsense from the Bible it would become an extremely thin book and slide right out of our Bible cases.]
…and ‘Spuriouser!’
If they made an effort to remove spurious passages such as the above, then why not remove the spurious addition of the name Jehovah in the Christian Greek Scriptures? This is where the “translators” have become interpreters: allowing their own beliefs to alter what is before them in the source text. That’s the worst thing a translator can do.
According to the Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus depicts his God as a loving, merciful heavenly father who cares about each sparrow and advocates pacifism. That is not at all how one could honestly describe Jehovah as depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures. Jehovah did not show mercy to the first human couple when they didn’t yet know wrong from right. He instituted a system of massive ritual animal sacrifice to appease himself (and savor the smell of burning flesh), and he ordered his people to show no mercy to their enemies as they ran their swords through every last one of them and their animals 7. So maybe Jesus purposely avoided calling his God “Jehovah” in order to disassociate him from all of that God’s contrary characteristics; he was introducing a new concept of God very different from the Hebrew’s old God of war.8 That is, at least, one viable interpretation of the Christian Greek Scriptures: an interpretation which should not be rendered “out of the question” by translators dishonestly forcing the name Jehovah into the text.
What excuse do they give for allowing their beliefs to influence their translation? In the appendix they stoop to using the childish defense that other people have done it as well. [Though, as far as I can tell, the other translators have only rendered "Lord" as Jehovah where a direct quotation is made from the Hebrew Scriptures.] So, next time the elders take you to task for “unclean conduct” be sure to use the “Governing Body Defense:” just tell them that “Other people are doing it too.”
But not only did they allow their own beliefs to corrupt the translation process, they have also included an introduction that tells their readers how the Watchtower wants them to interpret the Bible in their hands. I know that it’s their publication, and they can put whatever they want in it, but in my opinion it seems unfair to bias a person towards what it all means before allowing them to read the Bible for themselves and draw their own conclusions [something the Watchtower never wants to happen!9]
Highlights from the Revised New World Translation Bible Introduction
The Bible contains God’s message, or word, for us today. It shows us how to live our lives successfully and how to gain God’s approval.
Where is the proof for these outrageous statements? The Bible cannot be any god’s message; it is too self-contradictory and loaded with factual errors, impossibilities, and condoned immoral actions. I’ve written an entire book on this point to which I would refer anyone who doubts this.
The Bible doesn’t show you how to live your life successfully. I think that few Witnesses are what one could objectively call “successful” (and those who are successful are such in spite of the Watchtower’s advice [such as: don't spend time on getting an education] rather than because of it.) The Bible’s advice is to let people walk all over you: turning the other cheek so that the bullies can hit you again more easily; and giving thieves double what they’ve stolen from you; and never suing or standing up for your rights!10
The Bible shows us that King David “gained God’s approval” by massacring entire villages11, lying12, practicing polygamy13, murdering his own step-sons14, and enslaving people15. After which the Bible relates that its God Jehovah said that David “kept my commandments and walked after me with all his heart, doing only what was right in my eyes.” (1 Kings 14:7-8; see also: 1 Kings 15:5) I don’t think that “gaining God’s approval” in this way is a good thing. Emulating David is not likely to earn you a place in paradise ruled over by Jesus. It’s more likely to earn you a place in a prison ruled over by a very large and horny Hispanic man named Jesús.
Under the heading: How Can the Bible Help Your Family? We see this biblical advice for wives:
“You wives, be in subjection to your husbands, as it is becoming in the Lord.”
“Subjection?” Is that word still in use in 21st century America? Certainly not in any positive sense. Women have freed themselves (slightly), after centuries of suffering as second-class citizens, to the point where enlightened men now recognize them as their equals. But here we have the Watchtower imposing the words of the misogynist Paul upon the modern world–as if he had any clue about modern relationships or any real sense of morality after his complicity in the murder of Stephen and others, and having struck a man blind for disagreeing with him! (Acts 7:58-8:1; 9:1; 13:9-11)
Instead of revising their 50′s language, the Watchtower would’ve done better to revise their 50′s attitude towards women.
The Foreword of the Revised Edition of the New World Translation
“The Bible inspires us to reflect Jehovah’s qualities of love, mercy, and compassion.”
We can reflect upon them–in shock and disgust. But please don’t anyone try “reflecting Jehovah’s qualities” at home! Here is a god that loves the smell of burning flesh. A God who commands his people to murder children and babies and run pregnant women through their bellies with the sword. A God who punishes all humankind for millennia for the sin of one couple–when that couple didn’t know right from wrong–and the only way he knows to make himself forgive us for what we didn’t do is by murdering his own son! I sincerely hope no one ever reflects these qualities of Jehovah or mistakes them for true love, mercy, and compassion.
From Appendix A3: How the Bible Came to Us
“What about the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures? Those books were first penned by some of the apostles of Jesus Christ and by a few other early disciples.”
Where is the evidence for this statement? Scholars are fairly certain that none of the books were penned by the apostles. They would have all been long dead by the time these books were written: please see the Wikipedia article on The Authorship of the New Testament.
Appendix A6: Chart: Prophets and Kings of Judah and Israel
All 14 discrepancies in the reigns of these kings are deceptively glossed over in the Watchtower’s chart. Please see a truthful version of this chart in my appendix to The Cure for Fundamentalism..
Here is one example:
If Omri’s reign began in the 31st year of Asa’s, and lasted 12 years (as 1 Ki. 16:23 says that it did), and if Ahab’s reign began in the 38th year of Asa’s reign (as 1 Ki. 16:29 states), then the reigns of Omri and Ahab overlapped by 5 years. However, 1 Ki. 16:28 says that Ahab began his reign after his father Omri died, so there could not have been any overlap.
Finally, the NWT chart ends with this statement:
“607 BCE: Jerusalem and its temple are destroyed by the invading Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar.”
As the Watchtower well knows, this is an erroneous date (the event occurred in 587 BCE). But they cling to this date in order to retain their equally erroneous ideas about the year 1914 (which year is also mentioned–to the everlasting shame of the publishers–in this highly biased publication purporting to be the “word of God.”)
Conclusion
The more I think about the above “spiritual food” found in the new “silver sword,” the more apropos seems the sword-swallowing analogy; it’s downright amazing what the Watchtower expects us to swallow!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References
1.
“Then Samuel said to Saul: “Jehovah sent me to anoint you as king over his people Israel; now listen to what Jehovah has to say. This is what Jehovah of armies says: ‘I will call to account the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they opposed them along their way coming up from Egypt. Now go, and strike down the Amalekites, and devote them to destruction along with all that they have. You must not spare them; you are to put them to death, man as well as woman, child as well as infant, bull as well as sheep, camel as well as donkey.’”"
– 1 Sam. 15:1-3 (NWT, 2013 ed.);
But King Saul spares King Agag, as well as some of the cattle (in order to sacrifice the latter to Jehovah.) This infuriates Jehovah to the point that he dethrones him, and crowns an even more merciless man in his place: David. Jehovah’s prophet then carries out Jehovah’s instructions: “With that Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before Jehovah at Gilgal.” (1 Sam. 15:33) –A story that you’ll surely want to share with your children! {sarcasm}
2.
“While inclining to view the pronunciation “Yah.weh” as the more correct way, we have retained the form “Jehovah” because of people’s familiarity with it since the 14th century.”
– New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with References, Revised 1984, p. 23
“By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho.nay’ and ‘Elo.him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations ‘Yeho.wah’ and ‘Yehowih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinized form “Jehova(h).” The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugeo Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favor “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation.”
–Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 884, 885.
3.
“Why, then, does this translation use the form “Jehovah”? Because that form of the divine name has a long history in the English language. The first rendering of God’s personal name in an English Bible appeared in 1530 in William Tyndale’s translation of the Pentateuch…
Explaining why he used “Jehovah” instead of “Yahweh” in his 1911 work Studies in the Psalms, respected Bible scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham said that he wanted to employ a “form of the name more familiar (while perfectly acceptable) to the general Bible-reading public.”
– New World Translation, 2013 ed., Appendix A4, pp. 1734-1735
4.
“Because the entire race of Adam was in him when he was sentenced, it was condemned with him; and during the six thousand years since, it has been unable, on account of weakness, frailty, sin, to extricate itself from this divine condemnation. God has provided the Redeemer for the very purpose of lifting the death-penalty upon mankind because of the disobedience of Adam, in order that as condemnation has passed upon all because of the disobedience of one, so justification to life, through the obedience of one, might pass upon all.–Romans 5:18, 19.”
–Watchtower, May 15, 1913 p. 151
5.
“Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life.”
– Watchtower 1974, June 15 p.376 (emphasis added)
See also: WT Quotes on the Bible being predominately for the anointed.
6.
“Some scholars see contact with religious dualism in Babylon, and early Zoroastrianism in particular, as having influenced Second Temple period Judaism, and consequently early Christianity. Subsequent development of Satan as a “deceiver” has parallels with the evil spirit in Zoroastrianism, known as the Lie, who directs forces of darkness.”
– Wikipedia: Satan
7.
“and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.”
– Deut. 7:2 (NIV)
“For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.”
– Joshua 11:20 (NIV)
“Whoever is found will be pierced through, And whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their children will be dashed to pieces before their eyes, Their houses will be looted, And their wives will be raped. Here I am raising up against them the Medes, Who regard silver as nothing And who take no delight in gold. Their bows will shatter young men; They will show no pity on the fruit of the womb Nor mercy to children.”
–Isa:13:15-18 (NWT, 2013 ed.)
“Samaria will be held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. By the sword they will fall, Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.”
– Hosea 13:16 (NIV)
8. (Please see Dispensing with the Hebrew Scriptures.)
9.
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he had used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years — if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references and had not read a page of the Bible as such, he would be in the light at the end of two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.”
–Watchtower September 15, 1910 p. 298
“From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude… They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago.”
-–Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1981 p. 29
10.
“Be quick to settle matters with your legal opponent, while you are with him on the way there, so that somehow the opponent may not turn you over to the judge, and the judge to the court attendant, and you get thrown into prison. However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him. And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment; and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles.”
–Mt 5:25;39-42 (NWT, 2013 ed.)
11.
“When David would attack the land, he preserved neither man nor woman alive, but he took the flocks, herds, donkeys, camels, and clothing, after which he would return to Achish”
–1 Sam 27:9
12.
“Then Achish would ask: “Where did you make a raid today?” David would reply: “Against the south of Judah” or “Against the south of the Jerahmeelites” or “Against the south of the Kenites.” David did not spare alive any man or woman to be brought to Gath, saying: “That they may not tell them about us and say, ‘This is what David did.’” (And that was his practice the whole time he lived in the countryside of the Philistines.) So Achish believed David, saying to himself: ‘He has certainly become a stench among his people Israel, so he will always be my servant.’”
–1 Sam. 27:10-12
13.
“David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem after he came from Hebron, and more sons and daughters were born to David.”
– 2 Sam. 5:13
14.
“At that [King David] said: “Whatever you say, I will do for you.” They said to the king: “The man who exterminated us and schemed to annihilate us from living anywhere in the territory of Israel— let seven of his sons be given to us. We will hang their dead bodies before Jehovah in Gibeah of Saul, the chosen one of Jehovah.” The king then said: “I will hand them over.” … So the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah whom she bore to Saul, and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul whom she bore to Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite. Then he handed them over to the Gibeonites, and they hung their dead bodies on the mountain before Jehovah.”
– 2 Sam 21:4-9
Michal had been the wife of King David (having paid her father the princely sum of 200 Philistines’ foreskins for her hand: 1 Sam. 18:25-27). So killing five of her children (fathered by Adriel) would have been killing his own step-sons. All of this despite the fact that the Bible elsewhere assures us: “So Saul’s daughter Michal had no children down to the day of her death.” (2 Sam. 6:23) –Just the sort of thing we should expect from the world’s most self-contradictory book.
15.
“And he brought out the people who were in it and put them to work at sawing stones, at working with sharp iron instruments and with iron axes, and at brickmaking. That was what he did to all the cities of the Ammonites. Finally David and all the troops returned to Jerusalem.”
–2 Sam. 12:31

Tags: Holy Bible, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Revised Edition

    
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Loni Hull • 3 months ago − + ⚑That's fantastic stuff. I'll be forwarding it to my father, who is intelligent but completely addled by his devotion to JW beliefs. He thinks that because the world looks like it's heading for the crapper (viewed in a certain light) that it must be proof of prophecy fulfilled, and that therefore the governing body(-snatchers) must be entirely right about everything. Perfect logic, right?
When he last visited my sister's children, I surprised him by walking in from the back room as he was attempting to indoctrinate his grand-daughters regarding the necessity of the ransom. After a lengthy discussion about the reliability and provenance of scripture, I looked him in the eye and said, "Dad, you know you're probably the only person in our extended family who has any chance of bringing us all back together.
"I had a dream, in fact, that you called a meeting of the Witness side of the family (almost equally divided; all raised JW, some never baptized, some now capable of seeing the failings of the organization) and admitted to them that you have been terribly misused and lied to, and that it is time to face the truth that the Bible is the faulty word of men. You told them it was time to put away hatred and reunite our family."
...to which he replied, "Don't hold your breath."
I won't, but I still love you, Dad.
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JWB – Jehovah's Witness Blog » Jehovah's Witness Beliefs » Giving the Dream Talk to Jehovah’s Witnesses
Giving the Dream Talk to Jehovah’s Witnesses
Submitted by Steve on October 27, 2013 - 4:53 pm One Comment
I dream of the day when I'll live forever on earth with just Jehovah's WitnessesLast night I dreamed that a persistent Jehovah’s Witness, evidently newly converted, asked me to address his congregation at the next Service Meeting. He still believed that the Jehovah’s Witnesses were open-minded and I could tell that he was so thoroughly convinced that they had “The Truth™” that he envisioned them satisfactorily answering any questions I might pose.
I knew there was but a small chance that such a talk might actually transpire, but I thought I’d better prepare my talk just in case; it was an opportunity too golden to be ignored.
Unfortunately, I woke up at that point, leaving my conscious mind to struggle with the challenge.
So I sat down at the computer intending to write the talk. At first I was overwhelmed by the blank screen in front of me; the scope was so big. There would be no way to cover all the issues in the twenty minutes allotted. So I would have to focus on a few things and tie it into a single theme. Should I choose what was most important e.g. blood transfusions, shunning, mind-control, pedophilia, the subjection of women, hatred of “the world” and apostates? Or should I focus on what was most tenuously held: chopping away at the thinnest root first? Should I argue Biblical interpretations with them, or show them that such disputes were pointless since the Bible cannot be “God’s word”?
After a few minutes of such quandaries I told myself I was giving it too much thought and that I should just pour out my heart. This is what I came up with:
Sisters and brothers, if I may still call you such; having labored together with you in service for many years, and having been privileged to serve at Bethel. I still feel a close affinity with you as people trying to live moral lives and reaching out in love to others. I have been asked to speak to you this evening about why I decided to no longer serve with you, and I thank you for this opportunity to do so. I hope this talk and others like it will help open a dialog between us and replace misunderstanding and hatred with understanding and love.
What initially attracted me to become a Witness was the idea of the truth. Here was a group of people evidently so loyal to truth that they would follow wherever it would lead them, even if that resulted in persecution or the loss of their lives. I saw them serving, not an Earthly master, but God himself and his representatives: not in the form of lordly overseers, but as ones who characterized themselves as mere slaves: faithful and discreet in God’s service.
Although I was invited to speak to you today, some of you may be wondering why you are sitting here about to hear the words of an “apostate.” Well, let me tell you why: the Watchtower has repeatedly published statements that encourage you to listen to criticism and to consider both sides of an argument. I will quote three such statements:
If you were on trial in a court of law, would it be fair if only your opponent was allowed to present evidence? No, you would surely want the court to hear your side of the matter …. Reasonable persons agree that the only fair method is to examine the evidence on both sides, both for and against a disputed theory. That is how one arrives at the truth.
(Awake! October 22, 1973 p. 6 – WBTS)
We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.
(The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, p. 13 – WBTS, 1968)
Every man should be persuaded in his own mind and no man should permit himself to be deterred from examining a question based upon the Bible because a clergy man or any one else makes the unsupported assertion that it is dangerous or unworthy of consideration. Error always seeks the dark, while truth is always enhanced by the light. Error never seeks to be investigated. Light always courts a thorough and complete investigation.
(Millions Now Living Will Never Die p. 13 – WBTS)
Don’t you just love those quotes? I know I do.
So let’s start the investigation the Society encourages us to embark upon. And let’s start with something we can all agree on: There is wickedness in this world of ours. Daily we witness enough immoral actions to make our hearts sick. We often wonder how some individuals can become so depraved.
Let me tell you of one example. These are the actions of an army leader. Now we know that in war there is killing to be done, and as you know, the Bible even says there is a time to kill. But even those out in the world have recognized that there are “war crimes” where soldiers or their commanders have violated human decency by such actions as killing civilians or using undue force; burning crops; destroying dams; torturing prisoners; engaging in rape; enslaving the conquered populace, and so on.
Here’s the Account
The army commander ordered 12,000 of his troops to attack several cities. The soldiers successfully plundered all of the cities, killed every man there, and then burnt the cities to the ground after taking all of the women and children as prisoners of war. When the commander heard about the prisoners he became very angry [you see: the looting, burning, and killing of civilians didn't bother him; it was just the taking of prisoners that upset him.] So, he was angry with his men and ordered them to murder all of the women and children except for the virgin girls whom he allowed the soldiers to keep for themselves. The soldiers kept all but 32 of the 32,000 virgin girls. The remaining 32 of these virgin girls were sacrificed to the commander’s god.
I know: that is a shocking story, and one I probably shouldn’t have shared with children present. I hope it doesn’t lead to any bad dreams. But it’s important to look evil in the face and recognize it when we see it. And I think it’s safe to say that we can all agree that what this commander and his soldiers did was cruel, immoral, and wicked.
As an ironic side-note to this story, the commander in this account also claimed that God spoke to him, and he wrote down what he said. Would you be inclined to believe him and to accept what he wrote as God’s words? Do you think anything this commander wrote would be a good moral guidebook for our lives? Of course not!
But what if I told you the commander’s name was Moses, and what I just related is a summary of the Bible book of Numbers chapter 31? If that surprises you, I suggest you read that chapter when you get a chance.
The Watchtower accepts the view that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. That includes the all-important book of Genesis where the roots of the “ransom sacrifice” lie. If we just agreed not to value commander Moses’ writings as the word of god, then we’ve lost the foundation – indeed the very reason – for Christ’s ransom sacrifice. Without Genesis we’ve also lost the entire notion of God’s turning the world over to Satan until the “end times.” That means there are no “last days” and any organization claiming to be the “prophet” that has revealed the “finished mystery” of the “last days” will be, in a word: wrong, and certainly not our source for truth in this world.
So, what do we do now: without a faithful and discreet slave to lead us and tell us how to live our lives? To answer that, let’s turn in our Bibles to Luke chapter 12 and verse 57. I’m going to read that from the New International Version where we read Jesus’ words:
“Why do you not decide for yourselves what is right?”
Jesus’ parable of the faithful and wise servant was meant for all of us, not just the Governing Body. Right after the telling of all these parables his disciples asked him if what he said was meant just for them, or for the whole world. He answered:
“What I say to you, I say to everyone” – Mark 13:37
We all need to be faithful to our humanity and wise in our dealings. This was not a prophecy any more than the parable of the Good Samaritan was a prophecy. Rather, they were both illustrations of moral conduct for us all. Nowhere did Jesus ever intimate that there would ever be a group of men who would decide for everyone else what should be believed or what was right or wrong. I challenge any of you to show me such a Scripture. You can’t, because those who hold you in their power made it up in order to lord it over you.
Yes, sisters and brothers: you don’t need to be slaves of slaves a moment longer. We can stand on our own and use our inherent sense of empathy to determine what is right.
As soon as we start to do that, several things become obvious. One is that it is not right to shun our family members and friends for disagreeing with our views. Another is that it is not right to allow family members to die when medical care could save their lives. Yes, I’m talking about blood and platelets here. Finally, it is not right, under any circumstances, to let child molesters go unreported to the authorities.
If the soldiers under Moses’ command had decided for themselves what was right they wouldn’t have followed his order to murder boys and rape girls. If we, likewise, decide for ourselves what is right we will not follow the Governing Body’s orders to deny our children an education, shun them, ignore their cries for help, or withhold life-saving medical care.
Never forget that we are all human beings first, no matter what our religious affiliation. As humans we have certain moral responsibilities: duties to one another, for which there is no acceptable excuse for neglecting. Jesus said it best at John 13:34:
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
This would seem to be more important than anything else: the over-riding command. But, frankly, I have seen more love outside of the Kingdom Halls than inside. Love does not sit back and watch loved ones die needlessly. Nor does it shun those who question, nor does it fail to adequately protect the vulnerable.
If I could make one simple request of you all, my dear former sisters and brothers, it would be for you to pay more attention to Jesus’ commandment to love one another than to the Governing Body’s commandment to obey whatever they may say. Please conquer your fear of these men and their scare tactics so that you can take up your responsibilities as human beings on this planet by making your own decisions. Come back in tune with your inherent sense of empathy and abandon your slavish worship of the Governing Body and its rules that violate the spirit of love.
Thank you. I love you all {except for any child molesters who may be amongst you today.}

Tags: Bible, Book of Numbers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moses

    
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