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JW Broadcasting
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At the 130th Annual Meeting on October 4th, 2014, a special resource for Jehovah’s Witnesses was unveiled. A new website called “JW Broadcasting” (tv.jw.org) would feature videos promoting the work of the Watchtower organization, and every month an hour-long video would be uploaded to be presented by a Governing Body member.
Since I feel strongly that Jehovah’s Witnesses deserve to hear both sides of the arguments presented by the organization and its leaders in these extremely persuasive videos, I have committed to releasing a rebuttal/response video for each monthly JW Broadcasting episode. These can be found below.
If you struggle to watch the videos in the smaller dimensions, please click on the “YouTube” button in the bottom right hand corner of the video you are watching, and it will open in its own browser window.
October 2014 – Stephen Lett
November 2014 – Geoffrey Jackson
December 2014 – David Splane / Mark Noumair
January 2015 – Anthony Morris III
Related blog post: “Tony’s JW Broadcasting rant against higher education…”
February 2015 – Samuel Herd / Robert Luccioni
March 2015 – Gerrit Losch / John Ekrann
April 2015 – Mark Sanderson
May 2015 – Stephen Lett
June 2015 – Geoffrey Jackson
If you notice any of the above videos are missing or no longer available, please let us know and we will try to find alternative YouTube sources.
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5 Responses to JW Broadcasting
Grace says:
March 17, 2015 at 2:42 pm
Muslim community establishes $1 million television studio, the One Path Network, to counter mainstream media treatment of Islam
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-16/muslim-tv-studio-counters-mainstream-media-treatment-of-islam/6323814
Is this the latest thing? Setting up ‘god tv’ everywhere.
Reply
Gilbert says:
May 29, 2015 at 11:36 pm
I thing the best thing that has happened to Watchtower id Steven Lett on video. Really!. We should all right in letters of how touching his video broadcast are. Maybe this will inflate his ego and he would do more videos. Effectively making your job easier. NO sarcasm intended. I really believe his ego will grow
Reply
Gilbert says:
May 29, 2015 at 11:38 pm
I thing the best thing that has happened to Watchtower is Steven Lett on video. Really!. We should all write in letters of how touching his video broadcast are. Maybe this will inflate his ego and he would do more videos. Effectively making your job easier. NO sarcasm intended. I really believe his ego will grow
Reply
Trish says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:48 pm
JW Broadcast is awesome! It has really helped me to see what is truly important in life!!! I absolutely LOVE it!!
Reply
Markw1509 says:
June 10, 2015 at 8:23 am
Trish…could you elaborate on your comment about JW Broadcasting being ‘awesome’?
Would like to hear more!
Peace
Mark
Reply
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Videos
New videos are constantly being uploaded to the John Cedars YouTube channel.
Here is a playlist featuring the most recent uploads…
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And here is a playlist of recommended videos from other channels…
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11 Responses to Videos
KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
Reply
george says:
August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
Sorry Cedars, I can only access the first video on my I pad. There are a lot of over sized play icons and they won’t work.
Reply
Luke says:
October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
Reply
Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
Reply
Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
Reply
Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
Reply
Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
Reply
Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
Reply
Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
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← Landmark victory sees Jehovah’s Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
Why class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses is alive and flourishing →
Jehovah’s Witness mother refuses blood transfusion leaving behind NINE children
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Posted on June 25, 2015
A Jehovah's Witness mother leaves behind nine children after refusing blood
A Jehovah’s Witness mother leaves behind nine children after refusing blood
If a Jehovah’s Witness is in need of a life-saving blood transfusion and no other options are available, they are instructed to die.
This was the case with a woman from Ghana named Rebecca Dankwa. She had had eight previous pregnancies, meaning that her ninth pregnancy was considered “high risk.”
It was thus understandable when even though she successfully delivered her newborn, she began to bleed profusely. She refused the proper medical treatment on religious grounds until it was too late and she died. Was her death inevitable or could it have been avoided?
Years earlier, Watchtower had subjected Dankwa to a religious tribunal, known among Witnesses as a “judicial committee,” because she had accepted a blood transfusion when giving birth to her previous child.
On that occasion also, because she had given birth so many times, she was considered a high risk pregnancy requiring a transfusion. Her religion found her guilty and she was cut off from her friends and family. Only after the leaders in her community and the chiefs from her hometown rallied around her was she eventually reinstated into the congregation, but the experience must have been traumatic.
It could very well be that when confronted with the same situation again she decided to stick to her guns about the transfusion for fear of reprisals. If she had accepted a second transfusion she could have been disfellowshipped again – deemed an unrepentant wrongdoer for being a repeat offender. It’s hard to even imagine the mental and emotional anguish she must have been put through, especially when you consider that she finally relented to receiving a transfusion but only when it was too late.
Dankwa’s decision couldn’t rightly be considered as being taken of her own accord. The pressure her religion placed on her simply cannot be ignored and must be factored into her choice to abstain from a life-saving medical procedure (not to mention that the entire JW doctrine on blood is both nonsensical and unbiblical, as you will see from reviewing the JWFacts article on blood).
No free will, no love
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that God endowed humanity with free will. Yet, at the same time they have a policy of shunning that pressures members into conforming to their religious standards.
If free will is such an important principle, why not just leave people alone to make decisions for themselves, especially in respect to medical choices concerning life and death?
Also warped is the Witness claim that they are the most loving people on earth. They claim that their group fulfills the standards of love set forth in the Bible that make them unique as “God’s people.”
Was Rebecca Dankwa indeed being faithful to a “God of love” or was she simply influenced by a religion who had real power over her life? Are nine motherless children really what a loving god would want?
This tragic story serves as a perfect example of how loveless Watchtower’s shunning policy truly is. For far too long the organization has intruded upon the private medical decisions of its members. It is high time for them to lighten the load they place on the millions of lives they directly affect. The ball is, and always has been, in their court.
In the meantime the body count continues to increase while so many watch helplessly from the sidelines.
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Further reading…
◾AllAfrica report
◾JWsurvey articles on blood transfusions
◾JWfacts discussion of the blood teaching
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37 Responses to Jehovah’s Witness mother refuses blood transfusion leaving behind NINE children
bobow says:
June 25, 2015 at 2:03 am
Just to point out some details, that are illustrating the absurdness of that story:
Her mother was there with her and they together insisted on not accepting the blood. That means her mom came there to make sure she does not repeat the same error again and does not go against JWs. What a “great” mother.
At the end she changed her mind, but it was too late. So maybe if she was alone there, without the pressure of her mom, she could still live. Maybe her mom prayed for her, maybe she said God will protect her, she just needs to stay firm, I’m just guessing. But the influence was there and she was not commited to 100%, that she want’s to obey it till the edge.
And that is extra sad
Reply
Cognitive Loop says:
June 25, 2015 at 2:50 am
@bobow
The blame for the “decision” falls squarely on Watchtower leadership. It’s their rules that dictate so-called choice in the matter of accepting blood, not scripture or personal decision making.
Reply
HEAVYHEART says:
June 25, 2015 at 2:28 am
This is so tragic for me to read, because now having lost even my belief in ‘God’ I feel (in that personal belief) that her Mother, children and husband will never see her again. If those kiddies leave the truth they lose hope, so from that point of view in seems kinder they continue in their beliefs. I feel so sad for this. Trapped!!!!!!!!
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
June 25, 2015 at 2:30 am
How much longer before this obscene cult has the same reputation, outside its controlled and blinded followers, as ISIS?
Reply
anonymous says:
June 25, 2015 at 3:02 am
To add to how sad this story is, is that since she decided to accept blood in the end when she realized the reality that she really was going to die and that Jehovah wasn’t going to answer her prayers, she will now be looked at by her family and congregation that she didn’t remain faithful to death and instead of being a martyr, she will be looked as unfaithful and not worthy of a resurrection.
That religion is something to be ashamed of if anyone is a member. It is not something to be proud of.
Reply
HEAVYHEART says:
June 25, 2015 at 3:12 am
@ anonymous
While I understand completely how you feel and I really do. It always upsets me when negative comments are made about ones still in the org. My Mum, and all the rest of my family are very proud to be called ‘one of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ and it sticks in my throat. I wish they would wake up soon. Until then I totally respect them simply because they are mind controlled. They will woman’s decision as an act of disloyalty just like you say, but they are really lovely people. Remember we were there once.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 25, 2015 at 4:23 am
@HEAVYHEART, I am sorry I seemed offensive to the people still caught up in the religion. I should have been more specific in saying it is the religion and what it does to people that I hate, not the people. I also have children who are in that religion and I also believe most of the Witnesses are lovely people. But any religion that teaches their followers to look at a woman who died, leaving behind 9 children without their mother as unworthy of a resurrection has taught those people to be sociopaths unless they stick up for that woman. That makes them judgmental and arrogant.
Most seem like the nicest people in the world to us, but once we leave the religion and disagree with the Organization, their true colors come out. All the love that they show is conditional and you will find that out if you decide to disagree with them about the religion or take a blood transfusion to save your life.
Once a person wakes up from the religious coma they are in, they realize how wrong they were and I am one of them also. But, when I was in the religion, I also shunned without knowing the full reason. I followed the religion blindly and now I am ashamed of my past when I was fully in the religion. That is what I mean when I say that they should be ashamed of belonging to the religion.
That religion teaches them (and I was one) to be proud to be called one of Jehovah’s Witnesses but in the community where that woman lived, JW’s will be looked at a stupid religion now because of that needless death with 9 children left without a mother. The community will not look at the religion as a religion that people should be proud to belong to but as a religion that is stupid and shameful. That is what a needless death like this does to that religion’s reputation. When Witnesses in that community go out and preach, that is the stigma that those Witnesses have to face until people forget about it. But when those kids go to school now and when they go to the Kingdom Hall, nobody is going to go up to those kids and tell them that they should be proud of their mother. They will be made to feel ashamed of their mother because in the end, she relented. That is what makes me so especially angry about the religion and those who will treat that family like that because in the end she took the blood but she died anyway. Anybody who sticks up for that, in my opinion, is shameful.
I can honestly say that when I was in the religion, I would never have made any comment that that woman would not have been worthy of a resurrection and hopefully if anybody made a comment like that, I would have told them not to ever say anything like that again in my presence and to those kids. At least, I hope I would have done that.
Even when I was in the religion, I refused to sign my medical directive like we were all told to do at the meetings in the presence of others and were told to have them sign them as witnesses. Something in me told me that I was signing my death warrant and I wouldn’t do it, but I ignorantly did keep my blood card in my wallet.
Reply
Charles Huff says:
June 25, 2015 at 7:14 am
If people are good, but just mind controlled, do you give a pass to the Nazis, ISIS, and so on and so forth? They’re just “mind controlled” after all?
The Jehovah’s Witnesses are evil, just because they’re family and former friends, don’t mean they’re not evil.
There’s no way, at this point, the everyday average JW hasn’t realized that something can’t be right about their silly religion. So to continue to let loved ones DIE, over the dictates of men, that’s evil, no other way to cut it, plus their silly shunning policies, which really are only a way of saying “I don’t believe you are an equal to me, and your thoughts don’t matter”, that’s evil as well, no other way to phrase it.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 25, 2015 at 1:20 pm
JWs evil as Nazis? I don’t think so.
But leaders tend to attract followers of the same kind. So if the leaders are lying hypocrites, you can expect the same from their followers.
Good people can be temporarily deceived by WT, but at some point reality sets in.
I can’t fell too sorry for those left behind. They can’t be mind controlled unless they like it.
Reply
Kat says:
June 25, 2015 at 3:34 am
This is so tragic, the pressures of the org and her own mother, poor JW was probably thinking at the last minute about her children, something has to be done about this, at least WT make this a conscience matter.
Reply
David Merrill says:
June 25, 2015 at 5:23 am
In the interest of accuracy I wanted to correct one point. Since I believe the year 2000 individuals who unrepentantly accept a blood transfusion are no longer disfellowshipped but are considered to be disassociated. Yes, this is a distinction without a difference but the change was made to get the WT Society in compliance with Bulgaria’s standards.
Reply
Mama Joy says:
June 25, 2015 at 7:04 am
This is truly sad and this proves that the Jehovah’s Witness Organization is blood guilty and a doomsday cult that requires human sacrifice.
Reply
Ted says:
June 25, 2015 at 7:39 am
“Go learn what this means. I want mercy not sacrifice”.
Matt,9:13, Hosea 6:6.
The words, mercy and sacrifice, are literally transposed
by this Diabolical org,
Sacrifice your time, your energy, your mind, personal
ambitions, personal relationships, even your life.
Failure to comply, results not in mercy, forgiveness,
or compassion. But in cold cruel rejection, even by your
own family and friends. ( no doubt causing them distress
also.) A situation enforced by this cold blooded,
Merciless regime.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
June 25, 2015 at 7:58 am
I really would like for someone to explain to me how shunning is a “loving arrangement” when many JWs will often choose death to avoid it. This story is a tragedy and made even a bigger one by the fact that it is repeated over, and over, and over again throughout the world. All the needless deaths in the past. And, what is come…
Reply
shannon says:
June 25, 2015 at 8:20 am
So will the congregation pitch in to help these 9 motherless children? Will the 7 old men in Brooklyn dig into the vaults of cash to help these 9 motherless children?
Reply
David says:
June 25, 2015 at 8:32 am
Another dead person, why???? It is a pity to put lives in the hands of people that change “truths” like fashion. I hope that people will learn to use their brains and consciences for personal decision like the use of blood.
Reply
Wendy says:
June 25, 2015 at 8:50 am
When I was a new witness, a young man in the KH had leukemia and refused a blood transfusion. His cancer was a very agressive one and he went downhill very quickly. Towards the end he merely lay on a pool lounge at the back of the hall because he was too weak to sit or stand up. He died within a few short weeks, leaving a wife (who was not a JW) and 4 small boys. Nobody stepped up to take on the physical and financial needs of the widow and orphans, they only arranged casserole duty for the week following his death. I was ashamed to have to face his wife with my casserole and was glad she wasn’t home when I visited. From that point on, I had doubts that were never addressed so I gradually fell further and further away until I faded completely.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 25, 2015 at 1:02 pm
Casseroles for a week. How nice. But who pays the rent and electric bill?
JWs don’t believe in “good luck” but they may as well say it, because that’s all the help you can expect from them.
Good luck poor widow, you’re on your own!
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 25, 2015 at 9:10 am
In the name of GOD no. In the name of a manmade fundamentalist religion YES I obey by mind indoctrination and loyalty to a CULT. When you get down to it they are no different in killing themselves or their children by adhering to the policies of men.
When you Fundsmentally look at it they are really no different then ISIS in killing people in the name of a ideology.
Reply
JPentrak says:
June 25, 2015 at 11:37 am
This was posted recently on FB and is an excerpt from the JW website regarding the blood issue. The delusion is out of control.
“Myth: Many Witnesses, including children, die each year as a result of refusing blood transfusions.
Fact: This statement is totally unfounded. Surgeons regularly perform such complex procedures as heart operations, orthopedic surgery, and organ transplants without the use of blood transfusions. * Patients, including children, who do not receive transfusions usually fare as well as or better than those who do accept transfusions. * In any case, no one can say for certain that a patient will die because of refusing blood or will live because of accepting it.”
Reply
sirius says:
June 26, 2015 at 6:31 am
Totally unfounded*?!?!?
Rather extreme comment for the JW organization to say considering they are moving closer to the original whole blood by way of substitutes and/or fractions. Can’t help but think the logic of this being paganism stemming from tribal rituals created by a hierarchy of clerics, of a cult. The hype of purity is well over played and perhaps very dangerous to the unknowing victims. So next, blood transfusions create lowliness in character and destroys moral and spiritual faculties in a man? By the way, this is what islam says about eating pork. Should JWs avoid the non-JW who has had a transfusion or even accept a convert who has had a blood transfusion?
Let man exercise his free-will and let judgement be between God & man’s choices.
* Where’s the data to support this fact?
IMHO
dogstar
Reply
anonymous says:
June 26, 2015 at 10:56 am
@sirius, it is interesting your comment: “So next blood transfusions create lowliness of character” because the Society does teach that. This is quoted from the booklet “Blood, Medicine and the Law of God” from 1961 on page 33 after going on and on on previous pages about all the things that can go wrong with a transfusion:
“These facts cover only a limited number of the dangers of blood transfusion. There are also at hand reports from doctors showing that numerous other disorders, including cancer and tendencies to insanity, may be transmissible by blood. Reports from doctors in both North and South America show that personality traits have been so altered that formerly clean-cut individuals who have been transfused with the blood of criminals and sex perverts have been changed into degenerates. Surely the dangers of blood transfusion cannot be overemphasized.”
This booklet was what I studied when I first became a Witness in 1964-1965 and I believed all that as the honest to goodness truth. I believed the Society was telling the “truth” and would never lie to me and it made me paranoid about blood.
When I was a child before I became a Witnesses, I had my tonsils out and I lost over a quart of blood when my stitches opened up and my parents rushed me to the hospital and they gave me a transfusion. When I studied those paragraphs in the blood booklet, I worried from then on that I might go crazy or get cancer or turn into a sex pervert from that transfusion. We all took it very seriously then. We studied that booklet in our weekly book study group more than one time. The Society has never repealed those statements so they must still believe it and want everyone to think if they take a blood transfusion, they will take on the personality of the one who donated the blood. If anyone starts talking to an old-time Witness, they will tell you that because the Society has never said they lied about it. New Witnesses don’t know about it because they have never brought up the subject with old time Witnesses.
Reply
sirius says:
June 26, 2015 at 1:58 pm
@anonymous, thank you for the response!
In studying Islam(I am not a muslim) I see some parallels. Nothing like selling fear to rein in the adherents. Consuming pork is a good example for the true/pure islamist. In such, great value is place on what a muslim eats (halal- lawful) or “a man becomes what he eats”. They trumpet, the life of a man is a compound of body and soul. Anything, which is harmful for the body, hurts the soul as well. Odd though, I’d like to know what a suicide bomber eats so I can avoid that diet. This deserves more time but i’m getting off-topic!
If, blood transfusions cause all those listed problems then for life & death matters they should have their own blood bank exclusive to JWs & not rely non-believers providing solutions. Step it up a couple notches how about the GB the only ones to donate blood. It should be quite pure considering who picked ’em. On the humorous side, the blood donation of a male to a female will cause what…. ?
IMHO
dogstar
Reply
bobow says:
June 25, 2015 at 1:20 pm
Actually it’s at least 3rd such a case this year, as far as I remember, what was presented in news/exJW websites, really tragic.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 25, 2015 at 7:21 pm
So many Witnesses will not think that they will die when they go to the hospital and undergo an operation or a childbirth. They believe the Watchtower that the deaths are rare and they won’t think that they will die. It’s not until they get to the point where it’s only going downhill and not getting any better and they will for sure die, is when it finally dawns on them that they won’t live to see their kids grow up but by then it’s too late.
The Watchtower won’t publish how many die because of refusing blood so that the majority are kept in the dark and never think they will actually die. If they think about it, which I don’t think they actually think about it, they believe that God will save them if they are loyal to God (Organization) and if they do die, they think they will go to sleep and wake up in the “new world”. That is how they think if they actually do think about it.
I worried about blood every day of my life when I was a Witness. I am so glad now to see what the Watchtower really is, which is a man made religion that is far removed from Christianity.
If I was in that situation now, I’d listen to the doctors. Yes, doctors do sometimes prescribe blood when it’s not life or death. We are talking about life or death situations, not in situations where eating some liver for a couple of weeks will build up your blood.
Nobody should be put in the situation that if they were to take blood to live, should be shunned for it, and no this is not a conscience decision. If one takes blood and the elders find out about it and that person lives, they will be called before a committee to see if that person should be disfellowshipped or not. It should be nobody’s business whether or not a person decides to take blood. The Governing Body and the elders were never appointed by God and they hold no power over any of us and they never did. They are presumptuous and false prophets and the Bible says that when it comes to false prophets, we don’t have to fear them.
We all get only one chance at life and it is worth more than the conditional love offered by the Society. Once it’s over, it’s over. Don’t let those people in New York control you and make you afraid of them. It’s nobody’s business but yours, if you take blood or not. Your life is precious and your children’s lives are precious. God is not going to kill you at Armageddon if you take blood. That is the real myth.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
June 26, 2015 at 4:28 pm
DEAR ANONYMOUS I ENJOYED YOUR OUTSTANDING AND SO TRUTHFUL COMMENT. WE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT ARE TOTALY RESPONSABLE FOR OUR LIVES AND DECISION MAKING. ABSOLUTLEY NO ONE ELSE HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE OUR CHOICES ON SUCH SERIUOS MATTERS. ESPECIALY THOSE WHO LIVE IN IVORY TOWERS, WHO NEVER COME DOWN TO WALK WITH US LOWLY MORTALS. WHEN I WAS A JW, I SECRETLY SAID TO MYSELF. IF PUSH COMES TO SHOVE I WOULD ACCEPT A BLOOD TRANSFUSION AND THEN WALK AWAY FROM THE SO CALLED TRUTH. AND NEVER LOOK BACK.
Reply
Brent says:
June 25, 2015 at 11:18 pm
Revoke the Watchtowers tax free status, its a death cult. I wounder how many of her children when they are old enough will stay in the cult?
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
June 26, 2015 at 9:07 am
One of my parents was murdered in a disfellowshipped state. Not one brother would do a eulogy. I was told by some, she wouldn’t receive a resurrection. I thought to myself what an unkind thing to say to someone. Sometimes I voiced my opinions. I ended up writing a letter to the service department asking this specific question. The letter was loving and basically stated that the matter was left to Jehovah. As anonymous, stated though, rules and regulations guide most witnesses and their conditional love is just that…
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 26, 2015 at 11:47 am
Like their faithful and discreet slave teaching, WT resurrection doctrine has flip flopped many times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToQJIE58xNY (funny video btw)
WT has repeatedly contradicted themselves on TWO important teachings; the basis of their authority (faithful and discreet slave), and the resurrection, which means eternal LIFE or DEATH!
And if the witness of two is true, as WT often says, the schizophrenic flip flops of WT make it clear that WT does NOT have God’s spirit; God is not crazy.
Reply
bobow says:
June 26, 2015 at 2:39 pm
My JW friends believe, that God will give you enough power to stay firm. And to survive. All you need is faith.
What a bulls**t! If God did not help this girl, mother of 9!, then when is he going to help?
After reading this I would not believe, that if I pray for courage in the ministry, or pray for a job or whatever, than he will listen.
So, my conclusion – God does not help. For sure not always, and if so, only in very rare situations, so to pray for everyday help is useless. And God does not protect JWs.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
June 26, 2015 at 3:45 pm
THE BIBLE CONDEMS THE EATING OF ANIMAL BLOOD. NOT THE TRANSFUSION OF HUMAN BLOOD TO ANOTHER. IF JWS CAN ACCEPT FRACTIONS AND HAVE ORGAN TRANSPLANTS WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. IN A COMPLICATED OPERATION , I ALMOST LOST MY WIFE BEACUASE SHE IS A JW FANATIC. MOST JWS HAVE A GREATER FEAR OF THE WTS AND OF ELDERS THAN OF GOD HIMSELF. WE NO LONGER HAVE TO FRET; BECAUSE CRACKS ARE BEGINING TO SHOW ON THE TOWER. IT’S SLOW DOWNWARD SPIRAL HAS BEGUN. I AM GRATEFULL I AM NO LONGER A WT ZOMBIE.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 26, 2015 at 3:57 pm
Blood vs. fractions, another funny video:
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 27, 2015 at 2:02 pm
This is another case of murder by watchtower mind control. This is an extremely dangerous, fundamentalist cult. ISIS has been mentioned in the same breath as watchtower and rightly so. There are now nine children left without a mother. They are also left in a lifetime of torment due to watchtower`s total disregard for basic human right`s. Life is the preeminent of those rights and yet watchtower wallows in human sacrifice. It is murder sanctioned by watchtower based on fables. We all know that watchtower is being exposed for what it really is in print and on the internet. It is not a scattered expose and so many millions have seen the irrefutable evidence that condemns watchtower. Murder, child rape, marital violence and shunning are the most prominently featured topics exposed. There is so much more but these four are so awful that surely it is time for someone in power to call an end to this madness? Jones-town, Waco and watchtower, there is no difference. Too late the authorities tried to end the insanity of the first two. Why not watchtower? All three were/are death orientated cults. Jones and Koresh were for sometime seen as eccentric rather than the monsters they were. I really see no difference between these three. I have a well founded fear for those in watchtower`s sinister clutch. Some may think me an alarmist. Get past the fallacy that watchtower would never sanction mass murder. It murdered this poor lady. It has murdered in the past and it will do so again. One death is one too much. How much is enough?
Reply
Ted says:
June 28, 2015 at 8:19 am
Suppose we accept that the Bible prohibition on eating blood
Is more than just a dietary law, ( which it plainly is not,) and as
the WTS, claim, extends to avoiding blood transfusions.
What then gives them the right to play God, by adding to his
word, in allowing certain fractions derived from blood.
By no stretch of reasoning can this be classed as “Abstaining”
from. So when JWs, accept these fractions, they’re doing so
purely on the authority of the WT,org, ( On whom they have
become totally dependent. ). And not on the Bible.
If I could bring in the subject of Euthanasia ( Assisted suicide,)
and make a comparison. One can surely empathise with
someone who through incurable illness needs constant help,
even in the matter of bodily functions, wanting out of it.
The people who are willing to carry out the sick persons wishes
by euthanasia. Try to make sure they are not acting under
coercion from others. And that it’s an entirely free will decision.
When someone dies from want of a blood transfusion. This is
suicide through intimidation, brought about by intensive
brainwashing. Here the person doesn’t want to die, they
want to live, and the remedy is at hand. But through instilled
fear and guilt, they dare not take it.
The hard “Evidence is. That we only get one shot at life.
Take back control, do it your way. Keep your children alive
and for their sake stay alive yourself.
Reply
Ariel says:
June 28, 2015 at 4:38 pm
Has anyone else read the October 2015 study edition of the Watchtower yet?
The last article in that rag is yet another warning for R&F to stay away from ANYTHING that sheds even a little light on the WT’s behind the scenes court cases, leaked elders letters, and even goes as far as telling them that it is “unwise” to share recorded bible talks amongst themselve
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
June 28, 2015 at 11:39 pm
Oh, that’s rich… Now you have my curiosity peaked. I will have to check it out!
Reply
Bad Penny says:
June 30, 2015 at 1:45 am
Another life sacrificed to Watchtower tyranny!
Our inherent desire is to live and unless we have some terrible illness, we cling onto that life with all our strength.
This lady did not want to die. With the impending prospect before her, she tried to grab the last lifeline available to her. She was too late.
This shows the mind control and undue influence that JW Dom has over its people. They have an internal battle as to whether to ‘please God’ and maybe die through refusing blood, or ‘hurt God’ by taking blood, maybe live, only to then die at Armageddon! What a choice!
So glad I’m out!
Reply
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← Jehovah’s Witness mother refuses blood transfusion leaving behind NINE children
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Why class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses is alive and flourishing
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Posted on June 30, 2015
Are elders' children given a longer leash in Jehovah's impartial organization?
Are elders’ children given a longer leash in Jehovah’s impartial organization?
Jehovah’s Witnesses pride themselves on having overcome all social barriers. But there is more to this claim than meets the eye. This is the story of how I discovered the subtle and little-known class distinctions among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I was born into the so-called “Truth.” My parents were old-school missionaries in South America and Northern Africa who graduated from Gilead School in the early seventies; my father served as Presiding Overseer of our congregation for over a decade and was one of the guys calling the shots at district conventions and circuit assemblies.
My aunt and uncle have been working at the European headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany for nearly half a century; they were sent around the world by the Society to assemble printing presses. So, in a way, my family is Jehovah’s Witness royalty.
I hated it growing up. Ours was a small congregation, there weren’t that many kids, so all eyes were on my brother and I. In short, everybody expected us to do big things. What with the parents I had, the sky was literally the limit (I was quite sure from the start that I wasn’t anointed, the no-sex aspect of heaven was a deal breaker for me!).
At every convention, my brother and I were told what great parents we had and how much our spiritual brothers and sisters were looking forward to see what we would accomplish in the organization.
My brother, who is four years younger than me, never really spoke about spiritual goals. But as for me, I soon decided I wanted to go to Bethel. You see, I had virtually grown up with Bethel.
The Watchtower branch office located at Selters, Germany
The Watchtower branch office located at Selters, Germany
Semi-yearly visits to Selters in Hesse where Germany’s branch office is located were quite the highlight for young boys like us. We got to tour the Bethel facilities privately with my uncle who had access to all areas. I loved the printery. I have fond memories of getting a first-hand look at the production of Jehovah’s Witness literature.
For those not familiar with Germany’s branch office, it is quite a large campus facility. Different from Brooklyn Bethel and similar to Google and Apple headquarters, the German facility is located on a hill above a small town in a rural area, about 40 miles from Frankfurt, Germany’s financial capital.
It is a gated community, sealed off from the environment and practically self-sustaining (I remember my uncle explaining that the branch office could survive doomsday-like conditions for a few months). Pretty much what Warwick is supposed to be. It was a very exciting place to be as a youngster.
I am not exactly sure why I wanted to join Bethel. I have given it a lot of thought and it boils down to these reasons:
• It was a very exciting place to be as a youngster
• I knew it would please my parents if I went to Bethel
• The older I got, the more the feeling grew that I would be safer spiritually in the confines of Bethel rather than among the “temptations of the world”
But first and foremost, I believed it was expected of me. I was quite vocal about disliking the preaching work, so a pioneer assignment was out of the question, which just left me with the Bethel option. My career path was laid out pretty clear: Baptism, Ministerial Servant, Elder, and then either Bethelite for life or Circuit Overseer. That was my future. I hated it.
You see, I knew all along that I wasn’t the best Jehovah’s Witness. I believed it to be the Truth, of course, and I was pretty sure it was the best way to choose. But I was scared stiff that I wouldn’t be able to live up to the expectations, that I would fail, that I would disappoint everyone who knew me. I felt like the member of some royal family that would rather be an insignificant civilian than the valiant hero. I felt really sorry for myself.
A while back, a former Jehovah’s Witness and I talked about our youth in the organization. When I finished telling the above story, she just smiled, shook her head and said: “You know nothing, Jon Snow,” or words to that effect. And then she told me her side of the story.
She grew up the daughter of parents who were run-of-the-mill Witnesses. Her father and her mother were both members of the congregation but lived in separation and were considered “weak,” or not very strong spiritually. She, despite her best efforts, was considered bad association on account of her parents. And when she reported to the elders that she and here mother had been beaten by her father, the elders didn’t believe her. And why would they? Her family wasn’t very prominent and she was the child of “weak” Jehovah’s Witnesses.
“In contrast,” she said, turning to me, “you and your friends, all kids of elders, basically had a fool’s license. You could do whatever you wanted. If you desired a privilege in the congregation, you got one and didn’t have to prove yourself first. I was a girl so that was out of the question anyway, but my brother wasn’t even allowed to handle the roving mics when he was in his mid-twenties!”
“When I did something wrong, I got a shepherding call. When you guys got into trouble your fathers spoke to you in private or just straight out turned a blind eye. Screw the expectations you were suffering from. Being an elder’s kid is the equivalent of a diplomatic passport!”
And she was right: Being the son of an elder was a get-out-of-jail-free card for my friends and I who were all children of elders from surrounding congregations. No matter how much we partied, cursed or got drunk, so long we did it among ourselves, Elders and other Witnesses didn’t bat an eyelid.
Nobody dared to speak out against the sons of elders. And if they did, then one of the fathers would speak to us quietly, telling us to cool it down a notch, and that was it. Even that one time I got caught on a date with a worldly girl by the family of an Elder, nothing happened. His wife(!) told me to be more careful and maybe think about the course I was on and meditate on what Jehovah would think of it. She neither told my parents, nor the elders.
Another time, my friends and I (all children of elders), went to a camp site that was notorious for parties of Jehovah’s Witness kids. All of us got drunk, and made out with young sisters. Of course, word got out, and other Jehovah’s Witnesses who were there complained to the elders of our congregations. Again, one of the fathers sat down with us. This is the conversation that ensued:
Elder: “There were some complaints following your camping trip. Anything I should be aware of?”
Us: “Well, we did have a beer too many and we were a bit loud.”
Elder: “What about girls?”
One of our friends who was a ministerial servant and just happened to be the son of the elder questioning us: “The sisters slept in separate tents in a different plot.”
Elder: “Good. Be more careful next time. I was young myself once. Just take care who you party with.”
That was an elder seriously telling us to watch our association before behaving like bad association. Brilliant.
The former Jehovah’s Witness I was talking to really had a point: While I had been all whiny about my terrible lot as an elder’s son, it had actually been my protection, my Jehovah’s Witness diplomatic immunity. That was when I realized that there was class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
My father is a humble man who never cared about the position he had. He sincerely believed that the higher you get on the Watchtower ladder, the more you have to serve. When another elder schemed against him and tried to stage a coup to take over from my father, he resigned as presiding overseer for the sake of the peace of the congregation. He would have been the first to step in if he had known that his son had leveraged his position in the organization on numerous occasions. The fathers of the other kids? Not so much.
Before Jehovah’s Witnesses now pick up their torches and pitchforks, by no means am I saying that this problem is unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am actually pretty sure that it is worse in many other groups including the Catholic Church, where there is a literal hierarchy on paper.
Class distinction is only human, I guess. But Jehovah’s Witnesses like to claim that they are immune to these kinds of social problems as a group. They write: “Jehovah’s Witnesses […] recognize that social classes have no meaning in the eyes of God. Thus, they have no clergy/laity division, and they are not segregated according to skin color or wealth.” In fact, the article where those words appear is even one of the top ten search results when you google “class distinction.”
While the second part largely holds true, I have to disagree with the first proposition. In a court case, a counsel acting on behalf of the Watchtower Society and Jehovah’s Witnesses testified that they ruled from the top down, saying: “We are a hierarchical religion structured just like the Catholic Church.” (click here for more details) While there may be exceptions, my experience is living proof that there is indeed a kind of class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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Read Misha’s follow-up article on Taze.co by clicking here!
Misha is the Founding Editor of Taze.co, a website about Jehovah’s Witnesses and Cult news, lifestyle and entertainment from an ‘apostate’ perspective. He was disfellowshipped in 2003, and has authored a German-language book about his experience titled “Goodbye Jehova!“
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102 Responses to Why class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses is alive and flourishing
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Menrov says:
June 30, 2015 at 5:10 am
Nice article. I agree, there is a rather strong class distinction. women vs men, rank&file of “good” reputation vs those with a less than good reputation (as judges by the elders), ministerial servants vs. elders, elders vs circuit overseer (CO), CO vs head office representatives and all vs governing body.
Agree, no formal class distinction on social class and race. I say formal as I noticed that in social gatherings there is some class distinction.
Yes, they claim a lot but actually are just any other group in many aspects. Sometimes worse, and sometimes better.
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Kat says:
June 30, 2015 at 11:07 pm
I would disagree on the race thing, we went to a need was great congregation where there was a literal line down the KH Black versus White. Two elders (Black/White duo) had been brought in to mix it up, it was that bad. No one went from house to house, you took the White calls, they took the Black ones. no studies among cross racial lines. That was in the 80’s and not ancient history, it does exist. My final congregation was the same, just English speaking versus the Spanish speakers, yes it was supposed to be an English speaking congregation. Again they brought in Black elders/pios to break it up, so then it split Black/White/Spanish speakers. I am interested in this issues so perhaps I notice it more, or have been in more mixed situations? Good points though.
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Carrie Bee says:
June 30, 2015 at 5:41 am
I was the only daughter of the typical elder and submissive wife of a mother. I noticed these distinctions years ago. There was the ‘fatherless boy’, the sister with the unbelieving husband, etc. Anything less than the picture perfect ‘spiritual’ family had a stigma attached. What a miserable life it is, trying to attain perfection among your peers and never being good enough.
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Rosie says:
June 30, 2015 at 6:01 am
Like Carrie Bee, I too was born into the same circumstances, however maybe it was because I was female, but unlike the sons of other Elders, I was certainly not given any leeway.
In fact the congregation thrived upon casting up to my Elder Father any of my short-comings, even if blown out of all context.
It certainly made for a very unhappy existence.
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John says:
June 30, 2015 at 6:24 am
I’m going to offer up a different perspective. I am an ex-elder and as a father raising a family (at the time my two daughters were teens and rather strong willed) had to deal with my life ‘under a microscope’. I was subject to a continuous stream of criticism and rumors/reports of my girls’ bad behavior from fellow elders, in general either single or childless themselves, and other busybodies in the congregation. This all came to a head during a CO visit. During the elders’ meeting with the CO he accused me pretty much of encouraging my daughter to get her navel pierced. Not that there is a problem with that in reality, and as a father I had spoken with my daughter about it and was satisfied with her response that she had researched it in the pubs and decided, based on her 18 year old conscience, that it was acceptable. I personally had no issues with it and commended her for at least trying to find ‘god’s’ viewpoint on the matter. This had been reported to the CO sensationally as my having commended her for having it done. This erupted into a shouting match during the meeting with the CO using language that I had never previously heard in a Kingdom Hall let alone during a meeting. He concluded his apoplectic tirade with admonition to the other elders that they ‘had to do the right thing’. This, based on similar comments made during previous visits, meant that they had to remove me. My daughter suffered for years feeling that she was responsible for the whole affair. This whole incident positively convinced me that the only spirit involved with this hypocritical, unloving organization came packaged in a bottle. I sympathize with all those who feel that they were treated badly since they were stigmatized by background or circumstance but these class distinctions come in all shapes and sizes.
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Jerome says:
June 30, 2015 at 6:26 am
For me it was a nightmare. With my father not being in the “truth”, I was considered a “fatherless boy” from a “divided household”.
All the elder sons flew past me to be first in line for any and all privileges. Funny how JWs throw that word around…anyways.
I always resented how hard I had to work to get any of the available “privileges” and as well to keep them – never miss any service, always answer, shovel all the grannies driveways…ugh.
Fatherless boy…always hated that term.
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JJ says:
June 30, 2015 at 7:33 am
My experience is closely related to Jerome’s, although I’m sure that the others here are equally valid.
I found that because I didn’t have a father or uncle to speak up for me at the secret elder’s meetings, I was the last one for any ‘privledges’ or parts. (This is very important to any Jehovah’s Witness male as it gives you prestige, self-worth and a much greater chance for a mate). You are taught to believe that Jehovah God himself selects the men who will “serve” in his organization so if you aren’t getting these ‘privledges’ then God doesn’t like you.
It was very hard and depressing. Much like any class distinction.
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Jerome says:
June 30, 2015 at 7:39 am
Exactly JJ, that is a great point. Privileges or lack there of, affected a young male in ways that could have lasting consequences.
So grateful to be clear of that toxic environment.
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da' says:
June 30, 2015 at 6:44 am
Do Elders children “enjoy” a longer leash ? Absolutely, no doubt about it ! Really , a rhetorical question . I could relate examples, but time and space do not permit. Lets just say everything was different – from dress (above the knee), extracurricular school activities, sports teams, higher education , special parts at Assemblies, to discipline (when others their age were df, they rec’d private reproof). On the other hand….
these children also almost never saw their fathers because they were so absorbed with the congregation. No excuse for bad behavior, however if they spent more time with their children , perhaps no leash would be necessary.
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StrongHaiku says:
June 30, 2015 at 7:04 am
Great article, Misha. And, recalling my experiences as a JW years ago, I have to agree with your observations. The JWs have all of the social sensitivity and dynamics of “Downton Abbey”.
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litsu says:
June 30, 2015 at 7:32 am
Hey Misha…
Nice article..just read your book a few days ago …i actually read it twice already..in German..im glad I’m better at German than English..
I went just like WOW..this guy is amazing..it felt like 98% of my childhood among jw’s..the way you describe it
Same age(nearly,I’m one older)..
I remember when my dad was an elder…it’s true that you have got a kind of immunity..When I was 17 he lost his privileges…things changed a lot..long story ..there is definitely a kind of 2 social class among jw’s..like in every org.led by men..
I’m not a jw anymore..never felt like a good one my entire life..it’s hard to get rid of the fears you grew up with…just like you describe it in your book..
Would have got more to say but…
Thanks for your courage
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Cognitive Loop says:
June 30, 2015 at 8:37 am
At least 50% of people in the congregation don’t have any say-so about anything in the congregations: females.
The whole idea that there is no hierarchy is struck down simply by paying attention to how any female is treated at any given time:
• cannot speak (teach) directly from the podium.
• have to cover their heads when any male is present during any bible-based anything
• even if married, the males in the congregation have more say-so about her appearance, her speech during casual conversations, her attire, makeup and footwear. God forbid she makes eye contact or is caught speaking alone with any male somewhere, even when in the middle of a crowded auditorium.
• cannot wear pants. Think that’s not a big deal? Well, i hope it doesn’t get down into freezing temps in the wintertime where you live, because pants are not an option. Which also goes to show that Anthony Morris 3rd has no idea what spanx are for. Idiot.
• women have zero upward mobility.
• and being a young woman means that you’re merely a temptation for the males around you. They’re not personally responsible for the dance happening in the crotch of their pants. Personal responsibility/accountability? Applesauce. In fact, that young high school girl who gave a speech in front of her class mentioned how elders cornered her and forced her to confess that her and her friend’s bikini photos were sent to their male friend in order to “tempt” him. Lordy. Good thing that young man isn’t responsible for his own penis!
And here’s an interesting take on how females are viewed (China baby girl reference)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdHvHony9YA
Funny how there’s no hierarchy… and yet there most certainly is when they exclude females (approx 50% of total pop.) from any position above being a wife and/or child bearer.
Being the son of an elder is one thing. I’ve seen many daughters of elders being pushed to super-polished image status, which they simply cannot live up to. Is it any wonder that so many young people walk away from being a JW once they become of legal age to live on their own?
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Nemorino says:
June 30, 2015 at 9:32 am
Like John, I too am a former elder, and my experience was much closer to his. Because of my position, five children were subjected to a greater level of scrutiny — and criticism — than the other children in the congregation, whether it be at school, where other JW kids seeking an opportunity to point fingers for the most trivial reason, or by the elders and others of the congregation who, out of pettiness or envy, sought to take pot-shots at the slightest opportunity.
In fact, one of the main reasons I resigned as elder was precisely to protect them from the unfair, undeserved scrutiny under the microscope to which they were subjects, solely because the position I held.
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Misha Anouk (Taze.co) says:
June 30, 2015 at 10:25 am
Hey Nemorino, thank you for your comment – I agree, my father was the same. I basically profited off his reputation and the way other Elder’s handled it. As my friends were mainly in other congregations, our own elders never really knew about what I was up to with my german friends. But it was the same in our congregation: As elder’s kids, you were under particular scrutiny.
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holy Connoli says:
July 2, 2015 at 1:14 am
Misha. As a former Elder for 12 years I know for sure that Elders sons and family are given many exceptions to the “rules”.
There was a particular Elder’s sons who were causing all kinds of problems in the Congregation such as partying and staying out with HUGE groups of other kids until 3,4 5 o’clock in the morning. They even took cars out in the middle of the night racing them in secret spots and were caught smoking Marijuana. Nothing ever happened to them. When it was brought up in meetings the Father would say, ” I will talk with them” then later say we are having a family bible study on this subject or principle or well, Boys will be Boys? Always an excuse.It was always pushed out of the way but the entire cong was upset over it as these things went on for several years. I could not take the hypocrisy and favoritism an even other Elders that were his close friends would
protect him and he would protect hiss kids as well. I felt compelled to resign as an Elder. SHortly after I was no longer an Elder they went after my own teen age boy at the time over much less issues then his own children did! IN fact there were 2 other Elders kids involved with mine at the time but they tried to concentrate on my son and not the Elders sons! Such Hypocrisy! My son just avoided all of them and in due time moved to Europe and left the JW’s entirely. He is a happy young adult today and despite being very kind and polite he cannot stand the two faced religion of the JW’s. BY the way Misha my Wife is a German Also I have visited Selters myself a few times and she many times. Man, I am Glad to be out. I faded away and it worked for me.She is still A Big JW and thinks they can do no wrong.
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Annie says:
June 30, 2015 at 11:38 am
I am an ex JW. Growing up I saw all of the bove mentioned things happen on a daily basis. If your parents were not elders or pioneers you were only spoken to at meetings. As a young wife who went to the elders for help with an abusive mate I was told I was “a whiny newleywed & to shut up & go home” if your son wasn’t carrying the rovings mics your family was whispered and speculated about. If you didn’t make the required amount of hours weekly (at least5) you were “weak & one the fence” There is no privacy in your life if the elders want to but in they do. They showed up at my place of employment and questioned me in front of my employees & customers about ” we are hearing” but they preach from the platform “don’t get involved in gossip and spread rumors” I have to admit their poor examples are what pushed me away. Even my own brother, the pioneer, elder, loving wife etc, kept me at arms lengths when what I needed the most was to be part of a loving stable family. Hypocrisy drove me away.
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Mama Joy says:
June 30, 2015 at 12:24 pm
They then try and say it was only that elder or only that congregation that was corrupt.
No it’s not, it’s a standard practice. It’s happening at every hall. The unusual is finding a loving elder….. And in my experience they usually leave within 10 years.
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Kaput says:
July 1, 2015 at 11:50 am
Well said Mama Joy – most good elders leave – the ones that are humble, can relate, approachable, enjoy a beer or more, have a good sense of humour. I’m from the “poor and weak” blood line so can relate to class distinctions. One incident after a meeting in which I was counselled as a 13 year old by the presiding overseer and his sidekick for wearing tight trousers cemented my goal to never be an elder – they were the only trousers I had as a growing young man – Mom was not happy when I told her but Dad didn’t have the horsepower to defend us as he was never a regular at the meetings and not important enough. I stayed close to the “good” elders until most of them left and followed them out. So happy to be no part of this corporation anymore.
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Mama Joy says:
June 30, 2015 at 12:20 pm
Yes! Elders kids can go to college…. The minions can’t.
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Annie says:
June 30, 2015 at 12:44 pm
Mamma Joy is so right I was always told by my mother, “the next cong will be different Ann, it was just the people in that one” every single cong I was every in (10 over my 51 yrs) were all identical.
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mike carter says:
June 30, 2015 at 2:28 pm
Its so true I used to call it witnessocracy, what was happening in the congregation I was in, people that became new elders where the ones that did go to university and had the good job and status, something that was disapproved by the organisation. While the pioneers like myself who gave up college or uni courses and started to question the order of events ,weren`t in the witnessocracy circle,I even had a brother tell me that a lot of what I did when I decided to become a pioneer was elder or human pleasing, when I finally decided that pioneering
wasn`t working out ( and yet that was the party line, so when it doesn`t work out mentally or financially the blame is on you), and seeing the hypocrisy of certain elder’s that had good businesses and it has to be said status and money they were the ones that we`re exulted in the congregation.
I went back to university years later, I still meet witnesses and some still talk to me, I think mainly one of my parents who is still a witness, never shunned me
,so I never had that mental anguish, which so many ex witnesses have had to endure.
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Grace says:
June 30, 2015 at 2:54 pm
I knew of 3 single mothers with daughters all who had got into trouble with Elders & MS’s son’s. All 3 girls got disfellowshipped while the boys got private reproof. After the 3rd incident, I realised that this wasn’t just isolated cases, this was designed to keep men in their positions.
Having a father or an Elder/MS father has advantages & disadvantages but the sad part was that all of these women accepted the injustice as just part of being in God’s organisation. I on the other hand found it demeaning to women & especially to the already downtrodden single mums. In the end, I had to get out it was too much for me to bear.
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Garrett says:
June 30, 2015 at 3:54 pm
Servus Misha,
Ich hab’ auch eine lange Zeit in Deutschland gewohnt, war zwar im englischen Versamung damals. …but to English for others benefit…
I too worked at Selters doing construction on the various buildings in the expansion of the early 1990s.
I loved your article. Very well written and insightful. Thanks for sharing.
G
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William Niles says:
June 30, 2015 at 4:12 pm
You hit the nail on the head with this article as there is absolutely no question that Jehovah’s Witnesses have a major, MAJOR problem with class distinction. Especially when it comes to priviledges in the congregation, brothers who have material wealth, who appear to be financially secure, good jobs, etc.. are definately shown favoritism v.s. brothers who are not so financially well off. Another serious trend, just about everywhere you go, is if you’re in a congregation where a lot of the witnesses are related to each other, Elders who are so eager to have their Sons, son-in-law, fleshly brother, bro-in-law, etc.. to receive congregational appointments…because it reflects good on that Elder. They use those things as a means to fulfill their own ambitions. Just a short while ago, we had a 20-year-old bro. appointed as an MS in the congregation…his uncle is an Elder and is Dad is an Elder…all in the same congregation. The night they made the announced his appointment, there were like 10 other relatives of his who had come to the meeting that night so that they could hear it said from the platform. A few months later, his sister/bro-in-law moved into the congregation…and now his bro-in-law too is being used like crazy, has been an attendant at the conventions and has openly said to me face-to-face, that he wants to be appointed as an MS….all of this even though he was not recommended by the previous body of elders for previous wrongdoing. And yet, there are bros. here locally who have been faithful for many years, and they will literally look for reasons NOT to recommend them. It’s all about being in their little club or a carnival ride…to be able to get on that ride you have to be of a certain height. A bro. gets appointed ONLY if the ELDERS say he’s qualified…and they will push that appointment even if the KNOW he’s not qualified. It depends on if the “like” him or not. Nothing but hypocrisy and lies.
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Felipe says:
June 30, 2015 at 4:51 pm
Your experience is only representative of human nature. It’s not a reflection of any JW’s unique problem. There are no explicit rules that say elder’s children get special treatment. Nepotism in a hierarchical group is a characteristic of any organization. Your story is a waste of time if you are trying to put bad light on JW’s. Your story is an example of human nature and can apply to any organization in the world, religious or business org.
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anonymous says:
June 30, 2015 at 5:37 pm
@Felipe, All of the stories that are being told about the JW organization here are true. What it shows is that yes, it’s typical of human organizations run by humans, not God. What you say is true. It’s typical and it causes anguish and pain to the ones who are guilted into supporting those organizations.
All of Jehovah’s Witnesses are guilted into going to the meetings and service and having to endure being hurt personally over and over again because we were always told it was a command to go to the meetings and service but none of that is actually in the Bible.
People don’t even have to get baptized to be a follower of Jesus Christ. All they have to do is accept Jesus as their savior. Nobody needs any organization or church. It’s all made up rules by a man-made religion that it’s only purpose in life is to guilt people into serving it so that they can build more and more Kingdom Halls that they will in the end own.
Witnesses are guilted into putting money into the contribution boxes to pay off loans that they already paid off for their own Kingdom Halls and in the end they don’t even own their own Kingdom Hall. That is what the Organization is all about.
Read the Bible without Watchtower “study aids” and you will see that you are being misled for their own greed and nothing else.
You are forced to stay in that religion or else be shunned and you are guilted into believing that if you don’t support that organization, that all the people on earth that you didn’t personally convert will be killed at Armageddon.
It’s the oldest trick in the book and you fell for it, just like all the rest of us did. Get out of it now while you still have some of your life left to live.
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Felipe says:
July 1, 2015 at 7:07 am
Anonymous you missed my point. I have studied JW religion in depth for more than three years. There’s little that any one can teach me about the subject. My comment was a criticism of the central point of the story: preferential treatment. That is not exclusive to JW’s or any particular group. It is in our human nature to give preference to those closest to us. The story does not bring light into JW’s peculiarities. It talks about the obvious, which we find in any hierarchical organization.
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Felipe says:
July 1, 2015 at 7:25 am
Oh, by the way. I turned atheist when I was 13. I haven’t changed my main position about God and religion since (I am 50 now). No need to tell me to get out of such a detestable organization as that of the JW’s.
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anonymous says:
July 1, 2015 at 8:17 am
@Felipe, I am glad you are not involved with the JW religion and never did get really involved. It sounds like you studied the religion in depth? That makes all the difference in the world for somebody who wasn’t affected by the favoritism and somebody who actually grew up in the religion. Looking at the outside looking in like what you are doing, you can’t know how much that affects one of Jehovah’s Witnesses who has grown up in the religion so maybe to you it’s a little thing but I can guarantee you that for those deeply affected by it who did grow up in that controlling atmosphere, it is not a little thing.
It affects their entire childhood and even into your adult life and it can ruin their entire life from childhood till death sometimes, even causing suicides for those who can’t endure the pain of it.
Just studying it, makes you an outsider and not really having the insight of those who actually grew up in it so your opinion about how important the story is, doesn’t really mean that much. I don’t mean to be cruel about what I am saying to you, but you were kind of cruel in saying that the story wasn’t important too, so take that into account.
William Niles says:
June 30, 2015 at 8:26 pm
Not a reflection of any JW’s unique problems?!? That type of thinking has got red flags flying all over it, and I understand it is because you have been taught to think that way. It is stated quite clearly at Ezekiel 34:16 that “the fat one and the strong one I will annihilate. I will feed that one with judgement.” In contrast, it says “the injured I will bandage, and the weak I will strengthen”. What’s the point? If what is being said here is not unique to problems among JWs, then tell me why Jehovah himself says that he will judge “between one sheep and another”?–Ezekiel 34:17. That is because these fat/strong sheep will often tread upon, look down upon, despise, the weaker/insignificant sheep. It’s just like if one of the weaker sheep we’re drinking out of a water hole, and the stronger one pushes him aside saying “get out of the way” and begins to selfishly drink to his hearts content. He only cares about himself. Those words applied to Jehovah’s OWN PEOPLE and not attributed to any merely human nature. That same chapter of Ezekiel also says that Jehovah himself is AGAINST THE SHEPHERDS and that he will demand an accounting from them. Why? For the very exact things that you say are attributed to human nature v.s. problems among JWs.
It’s apparent to see that you haven’t done your research and that you’re living in denial, which is a direct product of how you have been trained to think. You can be sure of one thing….just like the new online Oct.2015 study edition of the WT on jw.org says, I’m not naive enough to believe everything I’m told; only not in the way that will be molded/trained to think.
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Felipe says:
July 1, 2015 at 7:15 am
Spare me the Bible and the Watchtower. At this point I have read more from that book and the magazines than most JW’s. My point is not that there’s something very, very wrong with the Watchtower. I, just as much as many do here, want that organization brought to pieces. My issue is how you go about destroying it. The central point of the story is rather trivial because talks about issues that are common to any hierarchical organization, namely nepotism or preferential treatment. I have read many, many personal JW’s stories, most are heart wrenching, others are trivial or one sided. I feel this belongs to the latter category.
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Misha Anouk (Taze.co) says:
July 1, 2015 at 2:44 pm
Hello Felipe, as you will take from the past paragraphs, I try to take a balanced view. I have also elaborated on this topic in another article you can read here: http://taze.co/2015/06/30/jehovahs-witnesses-class-distinction/
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Simon Kestral says:
June 30, 2015 at 5:38 pm
@Felipe
As the Bible says, God is impartial. Nepotism has no place among God’s people. JWs claim to have “the truth,” to be God’s chosen people.
Well are they, or not? Their hypocrisy and lies indicate NOT.
People need to know that JWs are NOT as sweet as they pretend when preaching from house to house. They are beguiling, and ensnare many people.
Let reality prevail.
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Felipe says:
July 1, 2015 at 7:18 am
I won’t repeat my comments. Read them closely above.
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Grace says:
July 1, 2015 at 2:01 pm
Felipe,
The point of the story is not from an organisational perspective, it’s from a human perspective.
This is a religion that tries to control over 8 million lives in every way. They are a little nation of their own with their own Government & their own set of rules that they believe are above the World’s Governments.
They are the biggest braggers with their propaganda. They pit family against family though their hierarchal chain of command.
When you constantly brag that you are:
The happiest people in the world.
The most honest.
The only true religion that is God’s mouthpiece.
That you must obey those taking the lead or you will be disobeying God himself.
etc,etc.
Then you will be held to those words & if those words don’t stand, the followers who invested their lives, their emotions & their families are devastated when they realise it’s all been for nothing. If they walk away then they lose family,friends & community.
That’s why Anonymous is pointing out the devastating affect to those that have lived it & not just studied it from an outside perspective.
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Pickled brain says:
July 1, 2015 at 3:10 pm
@ Toni Kullan . Enjoyed your comment. The class distinctions are still the same ! Look at the Governing Body!!! MAINLY WHITE MEN , except for token black man !! I wouldn’t mind BUT these White men are SO THICK & LACKING REASONING SKILLS !!!
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josie picot says:
June 30, 2015 at 7:20 pm
Such an interesting article, I thoroughly enjoyed it. You certainly were JW royalty… fascinating! For me personally, being an elder’s daughter gave me no advantage however. When I “sinned” at 17, they disfellowshipped me straight away, and I heard later that they decided to “make an example of me” specifically because I WAS an elder’s daughter. Go figure.
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Simon Kestral says:
June 30, 2015 at 8:20 pm
They say a repentant attitude may avoid summary disfellowshipping. But strictness varies from one congregation to another, and among elders. And sometimes it’s more about the Father’s reputation than you.
I was friends with an Elder and his family, who had a daughter, late teens. I invited her, along with some other friends, to a college sporting event. But her family refused permission, on the grounds that it would be a bad example to the congregation, for an elder’s daughter to attend a worldly sporting event.
They were more concerned with the Father’s elder reputation, and what other people would think, than what their daughter needed. I knew she needed some friends in the congregation, she was not “spiritually strong.”
Several months later, she ran away from home, and never returned. I didn’t forecast it, but I was not surprised either.
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Oochi coochi says:
July 1, 2015 at 4:20 am
Nice beard. Yeh! Let’s leave the truth and get beards
How about a job
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Misha Anouk (Taze.co) says:
July 1, 2015 at 4:31 am
Well, when Ad Hominem is the only argument you’ve got, I guess you don’t have any.
I already have a job, but thanks anyhow.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 1, 2015 at 3:33 pm
Grace Slick in “Somebody To Love”
“When the truth is found to be lies
And all the joy within you dies”
powerfully describes WT.
Since WT is not “the truth,” leaving WT is not a defection from truth. People who think WT is “the truth” are hypnotized, worshipping an idol.
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holy Connoli says:
July 2, 2015 at 1:31 am
Oochi? Is there any scripture even indicating that
a man ( or Women …LOL ) should NOT wear a beard if they desire to? Or is that “rule” just made up bc some old guys at WT headquarters years ago decided they did not like Beards for whatever reason? Kind of like an entire book of rules that they make up and enforce and try to make it sound as if there is some biblical injunction against it?
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Gina says:
July 1, 2015 at 7:04 am
From 1973 – 2010 when I left, I saw and experienced much of the same as the article stated. For one, my mom was one of 2 whites in the congregation. The other white mom was married to an elder…. My mom had 5 children that had a black father. We were treated horribly I can honestly say for much of the duration. I was baptized with 2 of the elders sons. We all got into trouble very shortly after our baptisms. One of the boys did not have to have a committee meeting, the other did and was reproved. I was disfellowshipped! It took me almost 5 years to get back reinstated. I went back and forth forever it seemed… always at the meetings begging for my release… I could go on and on… but I won’t. Just very grateful that my eyes were opened to this messy religion and I left for good!
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Simon Kestral says:
July 1, 2015 at 9:39 am
Felipe said
“The central point of the story is rather trivial because talks about issues that are common to any hierarchical organization, namely nepotism or preferential treatment.”
“I have studied JW religion in depth for more than three years. There’s little that any one can teach me about the subject.”
@Felipe
Three years study from the outside looking in, is the limit of your understanding. But with three decades experience on the inside, I actually know what I’m talking about.
I don’t need to reread your remarks. Your point is wrong; the story is not trivial.
My point went right over your head. Not surprising though, since as you say, you’re not teachable.
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Toni Kuilan says:
July 1, 2015 at 10:14 am
As a woman in that organization you certainly feel and live the difference. I was a special pioneer in a little town in Puerto Rico and I had to cover my head to conduct the meetings and they still do that. But the worse experience I lived was right at the headquarters of Brooklyn Bethel. My husband Nestor and I were assigned as missionaries in Spain (1967-1977) and then the Society assigned my husband to Brooklyn Bethel as a translator (English-Spanish). Here is where our eyes were opened to the great division of class, color, race etc. The young black and hispanic boys were usually assigned menial jobs like cleaning rest rooms, laundry, kitchen. The writing and service departments were all white Americans. But some of these Hispanic boys whom we knew from Puerto Rico would come and speak with my husband, they needed help trying to understand how underpriveleged they were and serving the same God in the same place. It was very sad. Many young black boys committed suicide because they could not come to terms to telling their friends and family what was going on and these suicides were hushed. Later on we learned of the many pedophilia going on from the very elite white males to the young ones coming into Bethel. So this is not new and this organization is so hypocritical about their conduct it’s hard to believe. But they preach one thing and do the other. There are some good people in the organization but then there are lots of great atheist too!
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Jose says:
July 1, 2015 at 10:45 am
It’s funny I always wanted to be a special Pioneer. The C.O recommend me and mj pioneer partner to serve in a isolated island in the pacific. I was the newly appointed MS and already beem serving as a RP for 5 years. That assignment is where I saw the hypocrisy and harsh class distinctions I have seen from these missionaries and a sister from the translation office. Missionary brother really displayed an alpha Male attitude. I did public talks every Month learning the Local language and teaching in that Language. Stayed only a year couldn’t take it anymore so much negative happen. Now I’m 23 and I really just want to move on but it’s sad. We feel torned after giving so much of ourselves and realizing the type of crap that exist within this organization. My mom couldn’t take it anymore she decided to DA herself Elder really made her feel uncomfortable. I hope things get revealed soon or else more people’s lives are gonna get ruined..
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Grace says:
July 1, 2015 at 2:17 pm
@Toni,
I feel so sad for those that have suffered. I hope that this organisation will get some light shone on it’s darkness & be called to account for it.
I’m so glad that you brought this experience out. Witnesses live in such a bubble that they think that it is all so squeaky clean at Bethel.
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anonymous says:
July 1, 2015 at 2:20 pm
I didn’t grow up a Witness but went to live with my Witness cousins and their Witness mother when I graduated from high school and living with them, they invited me to meetings with them and service and within a year, I thought it was the “truth” and got baptized. To this day fifty years later, my cousins act like they are “above” me because they think they “brought” me into the “truth” and so I think that is why it is embarrassing to them that I stopped going.
I was never treated the same as the “born ins”. There were a bunch of girls who were my age and to this day when I would see them at assemblies were always really nice to me and I was very fond of them. I don’t believe they love bombed me but were genuinely nice people and still are to this day.
But I was treated very differently at that young age because they didn’t trust me as being spiritual enough like the born ins when it came to finding a boy friend in the “truth”. I knew that I wasn’t to marry out of the “truth” but the boys didn’t trust me since I wasn’t a born-in and I felt it very strongly.
I ended up marrying a “born-in” and he turned out to be not what I had expected at all but right up until his mother died in 1988, she had always felt that when he didn’t go to meetings etc. that it had to be my fault even though I went years by myself and took the kids without him. She always felt like I wasn’t “spiritual” enough and that is why he had all his problems and it just had to be my fault since he came from such a “good” family and all and I came into the “truth” at eighteen.
Then being a woman and him being a man, I always felt that I didn’t matter when I was around him. Nobody really wanted to hear anything coming out of my mouth and all ears were always turned to what he had to say. When I went anywhere with him in service or meetings, I was a nothing and people only hung on every word coming out of his mouth.
It was that way right up until I stopped going to meetings last year. I could raise my hand at the Watchtower ten times and might get called on once, but if he raised his hand, he’d get called on every time. If a pioneer or an elder’s wife raised their hand, they’d get called on and if a brother raised his hand, he’d get called on and if a two year old would raise their hand, they’d get called on, but I’d have to raise my hand ten times to get called on.
All the years I was in the Org. I felt discriminated against and made to feel like I didn’t matter even though in my heart I felt like I did matter. Every meeting made me so depressed that it would take me three days to recover from the last meeting and then the next meeting would start it all over again. Every meeting made me want to stuff my face with comfort food when I got home.
They have a way of putting us all in our place unless you are an elder’s wife or an elder’s kid or a pioneer. It’s all calculated to make us want to “fit” in and in order to fit in, we have to sell the Watchtower full-time and if we can’t afford to do it or don’t have the time, we are made to feel like we don’t count for anything. I think that is why so many people pioneer is so they feel like a somebody in life since we can’t be a somebody any other place except in the Organization.
I got tricked into the “truth” to serve God but what it turned out to be was to serve the Organization that it’s only goal is to acquire more and more property in the guise of saving the world from Armageddon and guilting me into paying more and more money towards the building of more and more Kingdom Halls in poor countries when in reality, the money is going to building more and bigger Kingdom Halls in the U.S. and more and bigger branch offices and cult compounds.
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Pickled brain says:
July 1, 2015 at 2:53 pm
@Anonymous. I wholeheartedly agree with your comments, especially with the bit about pioneering for sisters as there are few other avenues to excel. Many sisters outshine brothers on an intellectual basis & grasp the deep points of scripture better, but if an Elder or pioneer or ministerial servant hand goes up there is definitely a PECKING ORDER of Importance & IF a Circuit Overseer puts his hand up he will ALWAYS be given priority . What did the book of James say about class distinctions & favouritism !!'(James ch.2v1-4)
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Jane m says:
July 1, 2015 at 4:24 pm
All true stories!! I grew up as a fatherless daughter of a widow..you we were labled…. and one night as a teenager 3 elders sons made a late night visit to my neighbors who were worldy . they had a huge pool… I could here what was going on from my window….several weeks later these boys were basically slapped on the wrist for have sex in a pool with wordly girls,,,, they were publically reproved…. NOT disfellowshipped……but yet through all this the nosey elders asked so many questions about me.. My mother assumed I was bad…????? I got so sick of it ,I left home at 17…..The constant harassment from the elders was horrible….I came back as a married adult to a worldy man… me still not baptized sat alone and never had real friends… so I got baptized in 1991, then when my husband took his life in 2001, where were the elders??? not comforting me…they actually disfellowshipped me for asking my worldly cousin who was a minister for biblical comfort……. GOODBYE to my family… I am treated to this day as “dead”…. this is a mean cult….get out of her my people!!!!!
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Finn Sawyer says:
July 1, 2015 at 9:26 pm
I agree with Felipe’s sentiment and with the former elders who posted above, and to a lesser degree with Mr. Anouk. I’m not sure anyone is “right” about this topic. It’s just not a cut and dry class distinction. Families and congregations differ in their treatment of children and teenagers, allowing varying degrees of trust and freedom, elder’s kids or not. I have been in many different congregations and I found it interesting that although we were all studying the same exact copy, the “spirit” of the congregations could be very different–in large part steered by the temperament and opinions of the presiding overseer (now called coordinator I think?). Some were very friendly, others very cliquish, some seemed too strict, others seemed to look the other way when the kids were misbehaving. In my experience as an elder’s son and from observing my friends whose fathers were elders, we were held to a higher standard in the hall in which I was raised. I always felt like I had to set the example for the other kids in the congregation who were in families that were thought to be spiritually “weaker.” However, if your father is an elder you’re going to be better represented, in whatever situation. Kind of like the wealthy having a lawyer on retainer. Can’t afford a lawyer? You’re out of luck. But I wouldn’t call it a class distinction. More like a fact of life, as Felipe stated.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 1, 2015 at 10:52 pm
You miss the point of James chapter 2.
Class distinction may be “a fact of life” outside the congregation, but James said it showed a lack of faith in Christ (New Living Translation).
JWs call themselves “Christians,” but their works, not so much.
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anonymous says:
July 2, 2015 at 3:15 am
@Finn, when you say as a son of an an elder you needed to set the example for kids from spiritually “weaker” families, you were setting class distinctions yourself and you thought of yourself as a higher class of person. You were labeling other people in your congregation as “lower” spiritually than yourself and your family. You are making Misha’s point without even realizing it. How do you know that those kids in those “weaker” families weren’t just as spiritual and maybe even more “spiritual” than you were? You just assumed they were weaker and you had to set the “good” example.
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Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 7:34 am
@Simon, I think you are missing the point of human nature in general. I’m not sure what your beliefs are but if you want to make the point that true Christians don’t deviate from Christ’s teachings, then I must conclude there are no true Christians.
@anonymous: To my chagrin, I once again find myself defending the WTS. I disagree with you. IMO, they assign different leaderships roles with various “privileges” but with the exception of the most egregious (men vs. women) the organization does not make class distinctions in the sense that I think you and Mr. Anouk mean. There is no WTS sanctioned aristocracy, it is simply a product of biology–our inherent desire to get a leg up on one another.
With regard to my errant viewpoint as a child such as “I’m an elder’s son so I am somehow different” comes from the bottom up, not from the top down. It was the result of my weakness, it was not taught to me. I agree with Felipe, to me this is really a non-issue, especially in light of all the other terrible things that go on, not the least of which is the incredible treatment of women as lesser beings.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 2, 2015 at 10:09 am
People of the same kind naturally flock together. And the hypocrites leading the WT draw after them many followers of the same kind.
Some people recognize the class distinction hypocrisy and get out. They were not hypocrites like the rest, they were merely deceived for a time.
It may be a non issue to you, but you’re wrong, as proven by the many personal testimonies posted here.
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Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 1:58 pm
We’re essentially arguing about an intangible feeling, so there’s probably no right or wrong, only opinions. That it matters to others doesn’t make me wrong. There are others on here, judging by personal testimonies that disagree with you as well.
anonymous says:
July 2, 2015 at 12:38 pm
@Finn, have you ever been able to call somebody on the Governing Body? Are any of the publishers ever invited to visit another country like what they broadcast on jwbroadcasting like when that high-ranking jw went to Mosambique?
Do you ever see any of the Governing Body go in service and conduct Bible studies with plain and ordinary people? What kind of digs do the Governing Body live in? Do they get special treatment or not? Do they have regular jobs or not? Do they require obedience from the rank and file or not?
According to the January 15, 2010 Watchtower page 31, paragraph 14, the anointed “continue to act as “ambassadors substituting for Christ.” (2 Cor. 5:20).”
It is interesting that the only Bible that uses the word “substituting” in that scripture is the New World Translation. All other Bibles just say that Christ’s brothers are ambassadors working on behalf of Christ. So, since the Governing Body say that they are the Faithful and Discreet slave “substituting” for Christ, they are telling all of us that we need to be obedient to them because Christ needs a substitute which is them. Just as Winston says in his latest Watchtower Examination video, since when does Christ Jesus needs a substitute for himself if he is available at any time, day or night?
As we learned from the July 2013 study Watchtower, the Governing Body say that they are now the slave providing the food but do they act like a slave or do they act like the ones that we have to be obedient to? We wouldn’t have to be obedient to a slave but the slave has to be obedient to the master. The Governing Body do not act as slaves but as slave masters that is why the rank and file have to be obedient to them. That is class distinctions, no matter how you like to cut the cheese.
What the Watchtower puts down in print is only to trick unsuspecting and naive’ people into thinking that when they become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses that they will be treated equally but that is not the way the organization works.
Yes, there are plenty of people who don’t subscribe to that mentality but actually do treat everyone as equals but the Watchtower is made up of classes, from lowly publishers, up the the Governing Body. We were all deceived into thinking we were equal but that was just a trick to get us dunked.
None of us need that kind of treatment and none of us need to be involved in religion to be a Christian. If we don’t belong to an organization like that, we don’t have to be mistreated by imperfect people like that either.
It is not a non issue, this article of class distinction. If I had belonged to a religion that treated me as an equal with a sister who was a millionaire or a pioneer or an elder’s wife, then I’d say maybe I would not have felt so depressed from every meeting I went to. I would have felt I really belonged to a humble Christlike organization but that isn’t the Society of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Everyone in the Organization is judged, from the hours you put in service, to the car you drive to the house you live in to the clothes you wear and how fat or think you are and how much money you have and as long as your dad is an elder and your husband is an elder and you live in a nice house and you drive a nice car and have lots of money for nice clothes and can pioneer, you will be looked at with respect and admired and you will never know what it’s really like until your husband quits being an elder and you lose your standing and you lose your job and you lose your house and your car breaks down and you get sick and can’t afford to go to the hospital. You will always live your life thinking this religion doesn’t have class distinctions. Rich people never appreciate what poor people go through. They always think the poor person is just lazy.
The JW religion is a hierarchy just the same as the Catholic Church which the Society always condemned as Babylon the Great. I didn’t need to join this religion to be put down my entire life but that is what happened.
Anytime we can warn unsuspecting people who might come onto this website to warn them about the Society before they begin to study with JW,s , I feel is a good article and worth telling about.
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Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 1:52 pm
@anonymous:
@Finn, have you ever been able to call somebody on the Governing Body?
When I was at Bethel I ate breakfast with Bro. Heard of the GB every morning. He was my “table foot.”
As to the rest of your questions: Mr. Anouk’s article wasn’t about a class distinction between GB and the rest of us, it was about elder’s kids and non-elder’s kids. I don’t agree that such a class distinction exists. There are other class distinctions however, as you mention, but I’m not arguing those points.
Simon Kestral says:
July 2, 2015 at 3:23 pm
@Finn
Misha can accurately tell his own story, because he has personal knowledge of the facts. That’s what “truth” is.
But his personal story does not limit the issue to one specific class distinction, elders’ kids vs. others. Perhaps you object because it points a finger at you.
You sound proud of sitting at the same table with a GB member. Pride and class distinction often go together.
WT can’t fix a problem while they deny it exists. They are blind to it, as are you.
anonymous says:
July 2, 2015 at 3:34 pm
@Finn, just because you ate with Sam Herd, can you call him up and talk to him now? We had Stephen Lett as our Circuit Overseer too and I worked in service with a lot of Circuit Overseers, but I have written to him specifically with questions and never received an answer from him. What those people were when they were C.O.’s are not what they are now. Now they are “special” and unreachable.
If you can call Sam Herd and talk to him on the phone, I would be real curious how you did it. Are you that chummy with him now? I’d give anything to be in that position and I’d have lots of questions for him to answer but they don’t chum with us “little people” do they?
I think the subject for this article was a good way to start a conversation. It didn’t have to be so specific about being an elder’s kid or not. It was just to start a conversation about class distinctions.
Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 3:59 pm
@Simon
What about my statement seemed “proud?” It was a statement of fact, there was no implication.
I’m not blind, or I wouldn’t visit this site with regularity. Perhaps you’re projecting? I’m not interested in discussing this particular issue with you any further.
@anonymous
Mr. Anouk’s article was about a specific type of class distinction (elder’s kids). I don’t deny one exists between the minions and the GB. I was trying to stay on topic.
Simon Kestral says:
July 2, 2015 at 4:44 pm
@Finn
Anonymous asked if you could call the GB. But you deflected her question with an unrelated “fact” which you claim had “no implication.”
Your words are as slippery as WT deception and propaganda. Thank you for declining further discussion.
anonymous says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:02 pm
@Finn, I might be wrong, but aren’t elder’s kids kind of forced to get baptized at an early age so the dad doesn’t kicked off of being an elder? That seems to be a lot of pressure on the father and kid to go in service and answer at meetings and attend all meetings and get baptized. If your dad isn’t an elder, you wouldn’t have the pressure that an elder’s kid would have. If that kid wants to do his own “thing”, he’d have to lead a double life. Other kids might be considered less than the greatest association, but at least they also don’t have the pressure and I think less inclined to lead a double life.
I can only think of about 3 or 4 kids out of about 30, in the last 35 years or so in my old congregation that actually stayed in the “truth”. I get a kick out of the kids who don’t want anything to do with the “truth” and their elder parent dads even give talks at district assemblies but their own kids don’t want anything to do with it once they grow up. That is such a embarrassment on the elder dads but if the Society didn’t put so much pressure on those dads to get their kids dunked, maybe those kids might not have rebelled either.
You might not think this is an important subject to talk about but I think it’s really important since most kids raised in the “truth” don’t want anything to do with it once they grow up and their lives are ruined because of it.
The subject of class distinctions for both children and adults in the “truth” is very complicated and causes untold pain for those who are considered “weak” as persons who are not good enough to be associated with, especially when they aren’t allowed to associate with anybody who is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:23 pm
@Simon: Go bother somebody else.
@anonymous: I don’t remember feeling forced to get baptized. Like most I suspect, I did many things for my parent’s approval. But I think you are right about pressure placed on elders to have exemplary kids. Elders can be deleted if something in their household isn’t up to snuff.
It may lead to a longer leash (to avoid embarrassing discipline) to which Mr. Anouk refers or it can go the other way and mean a tighter ship. Both situations can result in “double lives.” Look, I’m not on the WTS side, but I don’t always agree with everyone on this forum, don’t take it personally. Unlike Simon I don’t think I can go around saying “you’re wrong” but I reserve the right to disagree and take what I hope to be a balanced opinion. In any case we both agree that WTS policies can severely damage youths in many ways.
anonymous says:
July 2, 2015 at 6:23 pm
@Finn, I have another question for you. You said that when you were in Bethel you ate ate at the same table as Sam Herd but did you read Toni Kuilan’s comment earlier? Did Sam Herd ever serve the food to the ones that did the serving to him? That would have been following what Jesus was talking about when it came to the illustration about the washing of each others’ feet. When I see the Governing Body doing the work in feeding and serving and washing the dishes for the poor Hispanic boys like the poor Hispanic boys and girls do for them, then I’d say you might have a point.
Wanderer says:
July 2, 2015 at 4:57 am
I am from a very large extended very well regarded spiritual family. I grew up on one side of the class distinction with my highly regarded family & extended family. As I became an adult, married young and slowly became weaker “in the truth” I saw first hand how the class distinction works in its passive aggressive way. Less and less people talk to you, less invites to social and congregation gatherings.
I found myself thinking that you really are in no mans land being treated like that, you feel awkward with “worldly” people but none of your “brothers & sisters” really have anything to do with you too.
The last straw for me was when we went to a meeting and we were talking to an elders 10 year old son, the elder came up, did not look at us, looked directly at his son and said “Dont talk to them, I want you to talk to more spiritual ones” and walked off. How Christian!
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Pickled brain says:
July 2, 2015 at 9:17 am
Class distinctions can take many forms . For instance rich & poor ; Educated & uneducated ; Elders families & ordinary publishers families; married & unmarried; single sisters & courting sisters; Europeans & non Europeans; Bethelites, Missionaries, Circuit servants , Elders, Ministerial servants versus publishers; Men & Women; Divorced, Stepfamilies & Married Couples; Those with Children & those Without. Baptised Teenagers& Unbaptised Teenagers! DisfellowshPPED, Reproved& Loyal ones ; Pioneers& Publishers!! Etc There is a CONSTANT SEGREGATION within the CONGREGATION because of UNSCRIPTURAL NAMES : Special Pioneer!!! WHY SPECIAL??? The Reward is the Same if you are a Publisher… Eternal Life ! Why REGULAR Pioneer ??? Why Auxiliary Pioneer??? Why Publisher???? Why Circuit Overseer ??? Why Bethelites ??? WHY , WHY , WHY this OBSESSION with TITLES?????
WHERE in the New Testament are these TITLES!!! These are MAN MADE & ARE WRONG !! These cause CLASS DIVISIONS in the Congregation ! SEVEN STUPID MEN IN BROOKLYN !!!This is NOT GODS Organisation!!
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alan says:
July 2, 2015 at 10:00 am
Class distinction???? OH YES. Take a look at the 2 famous tennis players. While I understand that they are not baptised, no comment is made from the Borg that they are not “real” Jehovah’s witnesses. Those who do not know this, assume that they are fully fledged JW’s. What they do not know is that if they were, they would have been counselled not to engage in worldy sports as other non famous JW’ are.
Another CLASS distinction is the hypocrisy of shunning. Mrs Jackson [the mother of the Jackson 5 et al] regularly saw Michael even though he was disassociated and probably still sees her other children even though the majority of them have left the Borg.
It would not be good PA if the media found out that she was not allowed to see her children. So the deception continues.
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Shanti says:
July 2, 2015 at 11:18 am
I agree the problems found in the JW’s with class distinction, hypocrisy and double standards to name a few are found everywhere. The difference is the JW’s deny that it exists. One of the basic tenets of the religion to draw in unsuspecting people is that everyone is equal. It is just another one of their bait and switch tactics which makes it so heinous.
Since they deny it exists, sadly nothing can be done to address and resolve the issue. After all it is a “perfect” organization. I can only imagine what paradise would be like with it’s very own caste system. I think I would probably be one of the “untouchables” assigned to the sanitation department to clean up the dead bodies while others are frolicking with those vegetarian lions!!
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JJ says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:16 pm
Hey, burying all of those dead bodies is a privilege!
Now don’t bother us, the Pandas are coming out.
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Finn Sawyer says:
July 3, 2015 at 11:07 pm
Haha, I wish these posts had a “like” option.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 2, 2015 at 1:04 pm
They say WT is God’s organization, run by imperfect people. That makes it easy to dismiss failures, and avoid solving real problems.
WT writers, and JWs who imitate them, overuse, and misuse the word “perfection.” They say “we will be perfect in paradise, at the end of the 1,000 year kingdom of Jesus.”
A brother once said that to me, when arguing against higher education. He thought there will be no need for doctors and their required medical training, because we will all be “perfect.”
I would enjoy having health so perfect that I never grow old and die. But still, I would call that flawless health, not perfect.
Flawless is more accurate, in the sense that it means freedom from defect. Perfection, on the other hand, generally denotes an abstract ideal unattainable in reality.
For instance, even with “perfect” health and reflexes in paradise, does that mean no one will ever be thrown from a horse and break an arm? Or perhaps we can suddenly sprout wings and float gently to the ground like a butterfly? I expect doctors and essential medical training will still be needed, even in paradise.
And what does human “perfection” in paradise actually mean? No one will ever be disappointed by a broken romance? Every man and woman will have a mate that makes them perfectly happy?
I expect disappointment and compromise will remain part of the human experience. Even with flawless health, in paradise.
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Ted says:
July 2, 2015 at 3:23 pm
As several of our fellow posters, have been hurt in some way
by an unjust class system. It’s obvious that there’s an element
of it existing in the WT, org. So Misha’s article is worthwhile
in exposing this, especially as they claim to be the one spiritual
oasis in an otherwise evil world.
Finn Sawyer, believes it’s not a “Cut and dried issue”. And from
my own personal experience I lean toward that view also.
While serving as elder my two children were sometimes the subject
of needless complaints. From people who had gone to other elders
before giving me and my family the chance to work things out.
This eventually caused a rift resulting in my son leaving home.
It took nearly a year to get the family back together again.
The glaring class distinction, is between the seven big brothers.
and everybody else. The totalitarian autocracy, to whom everyone
else must render unquestioning obedience.
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JJ says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:22 pm
I wonder if all 7 of the GB get along or if there are 2 or 3 that make all the decisions and run-the-show?
I also wonder how they decide to include anyone into their small clique? What if this new guy became another honest man like Ray Franz, and spilled the beans? How do they guard against that happening.
Do you think there is a group above of the GB? Like a Shadow GB???
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:33 pm
I would love to be a fly on the wall in their boardroom. It’s why COC was so interesting. Too bad we can’t FOIA those minutes.
What kind of power struggles exist there? Someone must be the leader. In any group, leadership usually gravitates to the most outspoken, would that be AM3 in this case? Could he be the secret leader of the GB? Yikes.
Reply
Vivian says:
July 2, 2015 at 9:35 pm
I bet they don’t even bother to start the meetings with prayer. lol. sorta.
Reply
Melka says:
July 2, 2015 at 4:05 pm
This was a great article, thank you for sharing. It hits home with a lot of people. I was for one, completely on the outside looking in. My congregation was extremely bizarre, and the kids that got praised from up on the platform, and would get chosen to work with the elders conducting the meeting for field service, were all blatantly living double lives. And kids even went to the elders making up stories about me that weren’t even true, to try to get me in trouble. I recall a circuit overseers wife making tapes of her singing bible songs that she wrote, using the names of these specific kids, handing them out during one of their visits, and leaving all of us nobodies out. It did not feel good.
But it was almost a joke. These people were so clueless to me, and so dumb! And I stayed in the “truth” until I was 34, but the whole time, I never pioneered or raised my hand much, so I always stayed a nobody. But when I would visit other congregations and people would hear my last name, they assumed I was somehow close to my aunt and uncle that were JW royalty, and they would immediately start name-dropping other really “special” people that I must know. My aunt and uncle also treated me like I didn’t exist. I always just thought it was because JW’s were so weird, because it actually didn’t happen in any other worldly area in my life. I was pretty “normal”, not some strange robot type thing without a personality, so I made other friends easily. And then when I was waking up, for the longest time, I had doubts that I was doing the right thing by walking away, and every time the subject came up with my Dad, I would tell him all the things I knew, then he would say “Yeah, this is run by imperfect people, I don’t care about that, but what I know is, (and then he would open up the bible) By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love amongst yourselves”. The favoritism, class distinction, and special treatment only solidified in my mind, that this is definitely not the one true religion, and these were not Jesus disciples. And before I left, when someone in my very own class of low level witnesses left, absolutely nobody cared, they expected it. But if an elders kid fell away, it was devastating to the congregation. Satan worked so hard to get that person. He tries to get the strongest ones.
It’s no wonder I was “clinically depressed” as a JW, and now, I don’t think I’ve felt depressed for one second since I woke up. I’m cured! But I also don’t belong to any organized religion, so there’s that too.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 4:23 pm
“But if an elders kid fell away, it was devastating to the congregation. Satan worked so hard to get that person. He tries to get the strongest ones.”
Why would Satan go after a spiritual weakling when he has a crack at the big game—an elder’s son! Challenge accepted!
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
July 2, 2015 at 4:56 pm
Melka’s remark sounded like sarcasm to me. Did you take it as fact? If not, what was the point of replying to it as you did?
Are you a rabble rouser?
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:04 pm
My comment was sarcasm as well. Over your head, like so many other points.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:17 pm
Not much difference between a rabble rouser and a troll.
anonymous says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:10 pm
@Finn, I also don’t get your comment. What are you trying to say in reply to Melka’s comment? I think most of us got the sarcasm.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:28 pm
@Simon: Feel free to get lost.
To all others: it was my attempt (albeit failed)at sarcasm/humor. My apologies to the fine critics on this forum.
Reply
Melka says:
July 2, 2015 at 6:06 pm
I got the sarcasm! It’s all good! It’s hard to portray sarcasm in type anyway. One elders son moved in with a worldly girl, and a group of women including the boys mom were standing in the bathroom at an assembly crying about it, talking about Satan and I think I laughed out loud or snorted. I meant that as truth and also sarcastic because it was so ridiculous. I didn’t really know them, but I wanted to say “Satan is happy you’re missing the session to talk in the bathroom”. That particular rule didn’t apply to them apparently. I know I went off topic , I have so many things to say about this subject.
Rk says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:32 pm
It’s true. I was probly the only kid in JW history to have his baptism revoked rather than getting DF’ed. My Dad was an elder and a family friend and elder had connections at bethel. He called bethel and I got a slap on the wrist and baptism revoked. Granted I had done wrong just weeks before my baptism. But it helped knowing someone. Thankfully it was not some back woods elders. I’d be DF’ed to this day. Lucky me.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:40 pm
Interesting! I’ve never heard of that.
Reply
Vivian says:
July 2, 2015 at 8:54 pm
Bah I don’t see class distinctions as much of a topic. Every organization, company, group that grows and continues eventually naturally forms distinct levels. Levels of success that depend upon a persons dedication and loyalty to the cause/ company. Generally speaking in jw land if you keep your mouth and brain shut you will fair well and go far. Sure having a “spiritual inheritance” might get you a few perks or unfortunate expectations places upon you but everyone knows countless examples of ppl that make it to the top that were from the “world.” I see the jws generally operating as an equal opportunity organization. I had friends from all different “spiritual” backgrounds getting the sword and not getting. One friend would get reproved over and over but never dfd and her dad wasn’t elder. I didn’t see much favoritism going on in my hall. But sure I heard of it from others. I don’t find the topic a strong arguing point to present to current jws.
Reply
anonymous says:
July 3, 2015 at 3:13 am
@Vivian, I don’t see the subject anything to “argue” about either but I think it’s an interesting topic to talk about to those not in the Org so that if they are ever going to get involved, they know what to expect in this religion ahead of time and if they are in the Org and they are feeling depressed over how they are being treated, it can give them consolation.
Sure, as long as you toe the line, you will probably keep under the radar, but if you don’t pioneer or spend a lot of time in service and if you dress nicely and if you drive a nice car and have a nice house, you will get called on at the meetings and if you are a man and you go to all the meetings and answer at the meetings and give good talks on the school and your kids get baptized at an early age and on and on, you might get to be an elder someday and be able to throw your weight around but if you are a woman, the most you can expect if you are a pioneer is to be used at a Circuit Assembly to give a talk to another sister. That will be your crowing achievement in life or else if you are a kid and you died refusing to take blood, after you have died, get your picture on the front of the Awake magazine. That would not be your crowning achievement but the crowning achievement of your parents who can proudly hold up the Awake to their friends for the rest of their lives, pointing to your picture on how faithful you were to death.
I remember a sister who happened to belong to Watchtower Royalty who is a shirt-tail relative to my husband who left her husband to marry another man and she didn’t even get publicly reproved. This caused another couple (who I am shirt-tail relations to) to split because the man thought that if that other woman could get away with it, then why not do the same thing to his wife (my cousin). But the guy did get disfellowshipped but for only 3 months because it was 1975 and the elders decided that this guy was going to get killed at Armageddon if he didn’t get reinstated so they reinstated him in 3 months!!! I talked to the elders at the time about it and I brought along my Watchtower bound volume to show right from the Watchtower how they shouldn’t have done that and they shouted me down and actually threatened me with disfellowshipping if I didn’t keep quiet about it. I was not to question them. Why? Because I was only a woman. I wasn’t even allowed to read from that Watchtower because it would have been “teaching” them and I wasn’t allowed to do that.
I have seen woman after woman raising their hands at the Watchtower meeting and not getting called on but if a man raises his hand, he will always get called on.
You can say this is not typical of all congregations, but over the last 50 years I have seen it over and over again. The elders are told (I think at elder training schools) to call on the more “spiritually” stronger and better examples to call on and they want to encourage pioneering so that is why they call on some people and not other people.
Once I had an answer that I wanted desperately to say at a Watchtower and I waited to raise my hand and I raised my hand over and over again during that paragraph and the one conducting the meeting refused to call on me. He even called on one person two times but didn’t call on me and went on to the next paragraph. It hurt me so bad that I picked up my books and went home, crying. I later confronted him about it and he said that it’s because so many people raise their hands that he has to make sure he gets everybody’s hand but I didn’t believe him because it’s not hard to see how they have favorites. If they won’t call on you when you raise your hand, you get the point. You aren’t as good as the pioneers or the elders’ wives or the kids or the men.
As long as you play the part and go in service a lot and dress the part etc. and your kids are doing good and you have money, you will be respected and loved. If not, you are put in your place. That is class distinctions. No, it’s not a printed out policy, but then what organization would print out such a stupid policy? Who would join it?????
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
July 3, 2015 at 9:40 am
JW class distinction is condemned by James chapter 2. So as you say, they can’t preach it. And being wrong, they carefully conceal it, like teens leading double lives.
Wanderer said:
“The last straw for me was when we went to a meeting and we were talking to an elders 10 year old son, the elder came up, did not look at us, looked directly at his son and said “Dont talk to them, I want you to talk to more spiritual ones” and walked off”
JW class distinction is rarely so outrageous and obvious. Most of the time it’s subtle and hidden, by whispers and innuendo. Those who say it’s not an issue are contradicting James chapter 2. They like WT more than the Bible.
Reply
anonymous says:
July 3, 2015 at 3:55 am
How I should have said in the above comment is that as long as you toe the line you will keep under the radar and if you pioneer or at least spend a lot of time in service and dress nicely and drive a nice car and have a nice home, you will get called on at the meetings and so on you will be treated with more respect and love. Hopefully you knew what I was “trying” to say but didn’t word it right.
Reply
Bad Penny says:
July 3, 2015 at 7:03 am
I think this has been a very good topic for discussion, after all, the Watchtower Society are supposed to follow the scriptures which teach that there is ‘no partiality with God’.
Setting yourself apart as ‘God’s organisation on earth’ makes one more reprehensible than any other. The standards should ultimately be far higher.
During my thirty years in the ‘lie,’ I and my husband found that there was a definite distinction between those who had been born in the faith and those like us who had chosen the way and come out from the world.
We were very aware of the ‘famous names’ within congregations. How it was often extremely difficult to break in to the cliques that developed, that is of course if you wanted to.
My husband was encouraged to ‘reach out’ and did eventually become a ministerial servant, although he was overlooked many a time before the position was finally granted to him. However, long standing Witness families definitely delighted in nepotism and ‘pyramid’ building, and the ‘privileges’ were not so difficult to attain.
After seeing hypocrisy within the various congregations that we were assigned to over the years, my husband decided to resign his post. To turn your back on the ‘privilege’ was not a desirable thing, and our family was then considered to be not so spiritual. Our son was looked down on for going into further education. I never really felt a part of the loving brotherhood, even though I loved the field service and conducted several studies.
When we discovered TTATT everything fell into place.
The traits of the wicked one are to exalt himself above others, it should be no surprise that his followers do likewise!
Reply
James Broughton says:
July 3, 2015 at 7:51 am
Misha, thank you for your article. Some of the life stories are heart-breaking and such a contrast to the sanitised testimonies of practising JWs that regularly appear in the ‘Watchtower’ and ‘Awake’ magazines.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
July 3, 2015 at 6:52 pm
The Bible at James Chapter 2v1-4 SPECIFICALLY CONDEMNS CLASS DISTINCTIONS which also Abhors Favourtism ! James goes on to show in Chapter 4 how it causes wars of arguments within the congregation !
This is obviously an IMPORTANT ISSUE for JEHOVAH to highlight it in Scripture at James!
Jesus allowed anyone to approach him & he continually discussed controversial subject after controversial subject in long discussions with the Pharisees. Where did Jesus SHUN or have A Judicial Committee of three fallible men decide in PRIVATE in a KANGAROO COURT about the fate of anyone ! The ‘ SHEPHERD the FLOCK of GOD’ book is FULL of CLASS DISTINCTIONS ! Revelation 22v18,19 proves the point . Elders who SIN know how NOT to get Disfellowshipped by not meeting with the other Elders as they can’t usually Disfellowship until they meet with the dinner.But a publisher who sins who meets with the Elders unaware of what this MOST HOLY ??BOOK contains will not get fairly treated because the Elders don’t follow scripture regarding Jesus words about the PRODIGAL SON !!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
July 3, 2015 at 6:57 pm
I must apologise in my above comment I said ‘MEET with the DINNER’ & I meant SINNER !! Sorry I can’t stop Laughing as I type this !!’ The Elders might as well Meet with the Dinner & not the Sinner as you will not get any justice in that Kangaroo Court !!
Reply
Jason says:
July 3, 2015 at 7:52 pm
As the disfellowshipped son of an elder, I’ll have to disagree about preferential treatment. Matter of fact, I WISH I had it, so I wouldn’t be disfellowshipped.
I grew up in a certain congregation, from ages 11-19 My parents and I attended the same one, but as a show of independence I stayed there when my stepdad was transferred to a different congregation.
Long story short, my stepdad found out I had been smoking pot and he made me tell the elders. Unfortunately, he didn’t do me a solid and keep it in the family or anything like that I had to tell the elders and then I got Disfellowshipped without mercy.
I’m sure favoritism happens but unfortunately I was not lucky enough to receive it. Guess that’s how it should be, but as one who doesn’t really believe in the religion anymore, I wish corruption worked in my favor so my poor mom wouldn’t feel that she’s sinning against Jehovah when she talks to me.
Reply
anonymous says:
July 4, 2015 at 4:26 am
@Jason, I think a lot of it depends on how proud the elder is and how “spiritual” he is. If your dad is a true believer and doesn’t have the position of elder so he can lord it over others and truly believes in the “truth” and if he finds out his own child “sinning”, he will believe that God’s holy spirit is being withheld from the congregation unless the “sinner” is brought to the committee and confesses his “sin”. But if the elder is more concerned about his own embarrassment in the fact that he “failed” in raising his child, he will look the other way.
That is my take on whether or not an elder’s child gets disfellowshipped or not because I know of plenty of elder’s kids who are disfellowshipped.
Reply
Anonymous says:
July 3, 2015 at 9:41 pm
One of the main reasons I left. It disgusted me see how “spirtitual orphans”, or those without political connections, were treated vs. those with political connections like elder’s sons and wives of elders.
Reply
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Why class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses is alive and flourishing
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Posted on June 30, 2015
Are elders' children given a longer leash in Jehovah's impartial organization?
Are elders’ children given a longer leash in Jehovah’s impartial organization?
Jehovah’s Witnesses pride themselves on having overcome all social barriers. But there is more to this claim than meets the eye. This is the story of how I discovered the subtle and little-known class distinctions among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I was born into the so-called “Truth.” My parents were old-school missionaries in South America and Northern Africa who graduated from Gilead School in the early seventies; my father served as Presiding Overseer of our congregation for over a decade and was one of the guys calling the shots at district conventions and circuit assemblies.
My aunt and uncle have been working at the European headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany for nearly half a century; they were sent around the world by the Society to assemble printing presses. So, in a way, my family is Jehovah’s Witness royalty.
I hated it growing up. Ours was a small congregation, there weren’t that many kids, so all eyes were on my brother and I. In short, everybody expected us to do big things. What with the parents I had, the sky was literally the limit (I was quite sure from the start that I wasn’t anointed, the no-sex aspect of heaven was a deal breaker for me!).
At every convention, my brother and I were told what great parents we had and how much our spiritual brothers and sisters were looking forward to see what we would accomplish in the organization.
My brother, who is four years younger than me, never really spoke about spiritual goals. But as for me, I soon decided I wanted to go to Bethel. You see, I had virtually grown up with Bethel.
The Watchtower branch office located at Selters, Germany
The Watchtower branch office located at Selters, Germany
Semi-yearly visits to Selters in Hesse where Germany’s branch office is located were quite the highlight for young boys like us. We got to tour the Bethel facilities privately with my uncle who had access to all areas. I loved the printery. I have fond memories of getting a first-hand look at the production of Jehovah’s Witness literature.
For those not familiar with Germany’s branch office, it is quite a large campus facility. Different from Brooklyn Bethel and similar to Google and Apple headquarters, the German facility is located on a hill above a small town in a rural area, about 40 miles from Frankfurt, Germany’s financial capital.
It is a gated community, sealed off from the environment and practically self-sustaining (I remember my uncle explaining that the branch office could survive doomsday-like conditions for a few months). Pretty much what Warwick is supposed to be. It was a very exciting place to be as a youngster.
I am not exactly sure why I wanted to join Bethel. I have given it a lot of thought and it boils down to these reasons:
• It was a very exciting place to be as a youngster
• I knew it would please my parents if I went to Bethel
• The older I got, the more the feeling grew that I would be safer spiritually in the confines of Bethel rather than among the “temptations of the world”
But first and foremost, I believed it was expected of me. I was quite vocal about disliking the preaching work, so a pioneer assignment was out of the question, which just left me with the Bethel option. My career path was laid out pretty clear: Baptism, Ministerial Servant, Elder, and then either Bethelite for life or Circuit Overseer. That was my future. I hated it.
You see, I knew all along that I wasn’t the best Jehovah’s Witness. I believed it to be the Truth, of course, and I was pretty sure it was the best way to choose. But I was scared stiff that I wouldn’t be able to live up to the expectations, that I would fail, that I would disappoint everyone who knew me. I felt like the member of some royal family that would rather be an insignificant civilian than the valiant hero. I felt really sorry for myself.
A while back, a former Jehovah’s Witness and I talked about our youth in the organization. When I finished telling the above story, she just smiled, shook her head and said: “You know nothing, Jon Snow,” or words to that effect. And then she told me her side of the story.
She grew up the daughter of parents who were run-of-the-mill Witnesses. Her father and her mother were both members of the congregation but lived in separation and were considered “weak,” or not very strong spiritually. She, despite her best efforts, was considered bad association on account of her parents. And when she reported to the elders that she and here mother had been beaten by her father, the elders didn’t believe her. And why would they? Her family wasn’t very prominent and she was the child of “weak” Jehovah’s Witnesses.
“In contrast,” she said, turning to me, “you and your friends, all kids of elders, basically had a fool’s license. You could do whatever you wanted. If you desired a privilege in the congregation, you got one and didn’t have to prove yourself first. I was a girl so that was out of the question anyway, but my brother wasn’t even allowed to handle the roving mics when he was in his mid-twenties!”
“When I did something wrong, I got a shepherding call. When you guys got into trouble your fathers spoke to you in private or just straight out turned a blind eye. Screw the expectations you were suffering from. Being an elder’s kid is the equivalent of a diplomatic passport!”
And she was right: Being the son of an elder was a get-out-of-jail-free card for my friends and I who were all children of elders from surrounding congregations. No matter how much we partied, cursed or got drunk, so long we did it among ourselves, Elders and other Witnesses didn’t bat an eyelid.
Nobody dared to speak out against the sons of elders. And if they did, then one of the fathers would speak to us quietly, telling us to cool it down a notch, and that was it. Even that one time I got caught on a date with a worldly girl by the family of an Elder, nothing happened. His wife(!) told me to be more careful and maybe think about the course I was on and meditate on what Jehovah would think of it. She neither told my parents, nor the elders.
Another time, my friends and I (all children of elders), went to a camp site that was notorious for parties of Jehovah’s Witness kids. All of us got drunk, and made out with young sisters. Of course, word got out, and other Jehovah’s Witnesses who were there complained to the elders of our congregations. Again, one of the fathers sat down with us. This is the conversation that ensued:
Elder: “There were some complaints following your camping trip. Anything I should be aware of?”
Us: “Well, we did have a beer too many and we were a bit loud.”
Elder: “What about girls?”
One of our friends who was a ministerial servant and just happened to be the son of the elder questioning us: “The sisters slept in separate tents in a different plot.”
Elder: “Good. Be more careful next time. I was young myself once. Just take care who you party with.”
That was an elder seriously telling us to watch our association before behaving like bad association. Brilliant.
The former Jehovah’s Witness I was talking to really had a point: While I had been all whiny about my terrible lot as an elder’s son, it had actually been my protection, my Jehovah’s Witness diplomatic immunity. That was when I realized that there was class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
My father is a humble man who never cared about the position he had. He sincerely believed that the higher you get on the Watchtower ladder, the more you have to serve. When another elder schemed against him and tried to stage a coup to take over from my father, he resigned as presiding overseer for the sake of the peace of the congregation. He would have been the first to step in if he had known that his son had leveraged his position in the organization on numerous occasions. The fathers of the other kids? Not so much.
Before Jehovah’s Witnesses now pick up their torches and pitchforks, by no means am I saying that this problem is unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am actually pretty sure that it is worse in many other groups including the Catholic Church, where there is a literal hierarchy on paper.
Class distinction is only human, I guess. But Jehovah’s Witnesses like to claim that they are immune to these kinds of social problems as a group. They write: “Jehovah’s Witnesses […] recognize that social classes have no meaning in the eyes of God. Thus, they have no clergy/laity division, and they are not segregated according to skin color or wealth.” In fact, the article where those words appear is even one of the top ten search results when you google “class distinction.”
While the second part largely holds true, I have to disagree with the first proposition. In a court case, a counsel acting on behalf of the Watchtower Society and Jehovah’s Witnesses testified that they ruled from the top down, saying: “We are a hierarchical religion structured just like the Catholic Church.” (click here for more details) While there may be exceptions, my experience is living proof that there is indeed a kind of class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
misha-signature
Read Misha’s follow-up article on Taze.co by clicking here!
Misha is the Founding Editor of Taze.co, a website about Jehovah’s Witnesses and Cult news, lifestyle and entertainment from an ‘apostate’ perspective. He was disfellowshipped in 2003, and has authored a German-language book about his experience titled “Goodbye Jehova!“
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102 Responses to Why class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses is alive and flourishing
← Older Comments
Meredith J says:
July 5, 2015 at 6:12 pm
If you have come out of the world it doesn’t take long for you to realise that you are considered a second class citizen in the organisation. You are treated like an outsider with suspicion by the elders and many brought up in it. You will never be treated as an equal and that is that. Elders kids brought up in the Truth always get the best deals. Always get offered jobs by tradesmen in the congregation while your kids are left out in the cold. You can pick it all soon enough.
Reply
Wanderer says:
July 6, 2015 at 5:11 am
I know of a couple who were married for about 5 years. She was the daughter of a prominent Elder, he was the son of an ordinary R&F. He finds out she has committed adultery lots of times with 2 different men. The outcome was she didn’t get disfellowshipped and he was vigorously counselled to take her back. I wonder what would have happened if the tables were turned?
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Simon Kestral says:
July 6, 2015 at 11:47 am
2 different men? Hard to excuse that as temporary weakness. Sounds more like a Jezebel.
Too bad this topic can’t be made sticky. These stories could make a book.
Reply
Cognitive Loop says:
July 7, 2015 at 1:02 pm
Did Jezebel commit adultery, according to the bible?
Reading on wikipedia shows that the account written about Jezebel was done 200 years after her death and was written by people of the southern kingdom. It’s probable that they didn’t think too highly of her. Plus, all of their accounting would be done from hearsay information, because of the timing of the writing itself.
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Bad Penny says:
July 7, 2015 at 4:37 pm
A sister I knew committed adultery with another sister’s husband who was not in the faith. She was disfellowshipped and after the break up of both marriages, she went to live with him. They never married and some years later she left him.
A short return to the ‘truth’ before she met a man in the world and married him. This marriage proved unsuccessful and she repentantly ‘returned to Jehovah’. The last I heard was that she now believes she is ‘anointed’ and takes the emblems.
Of course there is now another class distinction. She has become holier than though and knows all things! Strange old Watchtower world isn’t it. |
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← Why class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses is alive and flourishing
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The Book Corner – Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
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Posted on July 2, 2015
The 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind Control includes extensive material on Jehovah's Witnesses
The 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind Control includes extensive material on Jehovah’s Witnesses
When renowned cult expert Steven Hassan first published his seminal work Combatting Cult Mind Control in 1988, the world was a very different place.
There was no internet, so mega-cults like Watchtower, Scientology and the Moonies had a free run at inflicting their undue influence on people, including my parents, virtually unchallenged. There was precious little recourse for mounting any meaningful like-for-like rebuttal to the torrents of damaging nonsense spewing forth from cult leaders like the Governing Body.
And when it came to seeking support in escaping purveyors of undue influence, where could one turn? Cult refugees were forced to muddle through the best they could in their efforts to debrief themselves following their ordeal. There were no forums, reddit pages or facebook groups to turn to for solidarity, a hearing ear, or advice on what to do. Despite the groundbreaking work of pioneers like Robert J. Lifton, mind control as a serious field of study was even more taboo and misunderstood than it is now – and that’s saying something!
Step forward Steve Hassan, who since first publishing Combatting has gone on to author several other valuable guides for assisting those under undue influence, and with multiple media appearances has developed a reputation as one of the world’s leading authorities on mind control.
I had the pleasure of meeting Steven at the undue influence workshop in London last August, on which occasion he and I sat down for a quick interview (below). I recall in subsequent conversations Steven mentioned he was trying to secure the rights to re-publish the 1988 edition of Combatting so that he could bring it up-to-date with a quarter of a century’s worth of developments in the cult field.
Of course, one of the most appealing features of the 1988 Combatting was that, while introducing the BITE model as a means of recognizing cult characteristics, it didn’t mention Jehovah’s Witnesses once. This meant that Combatting could not be prohibited as “apostate literature” by the Governing Body, thus allowing doubting Witnesses to read it without having to wrestle with crippling feelings of guilt.
But why the oversight? Because as a former Moonie, Hassan simply didn’t know enough about what Watchtower was doing to consider the organization a cult back then. It took conversations with the likes of Randall Watters, a legend in the Watchtower resistance movement, to convince him that Jehovah’s Witnesses are “one of the largest contemporary cults,” and that almost everything he wrote in Combatting regarding cultic influence could be applied to Watchtower’s methods.
Steven Hassan credits Randall Watters with helping him understand Watchtower's cult-like attributes
Steven Hassan credits Randall Watters with helping him understand Watchtower’s cult-like attributes
A 25th Anniversary re-release of Combating (now minus one of the “t’s”) was the perfect opportunity for Steven to redress the balance and drag Jehovah’s Witnesses under the umbrella of organizations whose toxic influence must be urgently remedied.
Ex-Witnesses (and those seeking to be ex-Witnesses) will find chapters such as chapter 4 (“Understanding Mind Control”) and chapter 22 (“Strategies for Recovery”) very helpful. The latter includes a section titled “Floating: Dealing With The Cult Identity After Leaving,” which offers strategies for coping with the inner torment experienced by many cult victims long after they have left.
Those who are trying to help a friend or relative who has been enticed into joining the Witnesses will find chapter 8 (“Curing the Mind Control Virus”) helpful, as it walks the reader through the basic techniques involved in staging interventions for loved ones. And trust me as someone who has tried and failed with an intervention on his own indoctrinated father – though there is never a magic bullet solution when it comes to waking up family members it is all too easy to get it wrong!
Combating also features two “survivor stories” from ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses on pages 173 and 175. One is that of Lee Marsh, president of AAWA, who suffered abuse as both a child and a wife during her traumatic Watchtower experience. The other story is my own – a brief run-through of my journey out of Jehovah’s Witnesses at the expense of normal relationships with my father and sister, who now shun me for taking a stand against the organization. (This is a story that I will be detailing in my forthcoming book, which I hope will be published next year.)
I am grateful to Steven for including both these experiences. By highlighting the specific ways in which Watchtower is ruining lives, we can hopefully inoculate others, including escapees from other cults, against ever getting entangled in the organization’s corrosive web of influence.
Steven reserves some of the most scathing material about Jehovah’s Witnesses for the closing pages of his book, where he mentions the deadly prohibitions on blood transfusions and calls for Watchtower’s tax exempt status to be revoked.
“Any country that grants tax-exempt status to organizations that abuse children, not just physically, but mentally, emotionally or spiritually, should be held responsible for that abuse. Tax-exempt organizations like Jehovah’s Witnesses, that have had policies in place for decades that systematically protect pedophiles from criminal prosecution, and which disfellowship victims and their families for speaking out, should lose their exemption. The leadership should be prosecuted for conspiracy to cover up illegal activities.”
I fully endorse those sentiments, and I am grateful to Steven for adding his voice to the growing calls for greater scrutiny of cults, particularly as regards tax exemption. After all, it is bad enough that governments are doing nothing to make life difficult for cults without them effectively giving them a leg up by subsidizing their income.
More than anything, I am thankful that Steven and others in the ex-cult movement are doing such wonderful work in raising public consciousness surrounding undue influence, and advising those who suffer from it.
The 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind Control shines a bright light on the murky world of cults, and the strategies they use so successfully in controlling people’s lives. If you are struggling from the effects of cultic manipulation, or want to help a loved one escape its grasp, you will find this book a wonderful resource.
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To order your copy of the 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind Control, click here.
To listen to a recent podcast interview with Steven Hassan regarding his new book, click here.
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62 Responses to The Book Corner – Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
Richard E. Kelly says:
July 2, 2015 at 8:45 am
An excellent review of Steven’s book, Lloyd. A must-read for all ex-JWs. And I am looking forward to reading your book, another staple I am sure, for those books that will help to make the world aware of Watchtower abuses and its shameless use of undue influence on its members.
Reply
Mama Joy says:
July 2, 2015 at 9:01 am
You should lose your tax exempt status when you act more like a hate group than a religion.
Reply
ScotWm says:
July 2, 2015 at 9:02 am
The Watchtower mind control program consists of illogical, rambling nonsense spewed out by the “faithful and discreet slave”, now claimed to be the Governing Body. The irrational demands of the Governing Body become painfully obvious when the facts are known:
“Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?” Watchtower 2009 Feb 15 p.27
“We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval.” Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.24 Simplified English Edition
Once properly programed, brainwashed witnesses will truly believe the Governing Body’s lies and then attempt to lure others into the Watchtower cult.
Reply
Stephane Laliberte says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:18 pm
Those quotes are gold!
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ScotWm says:
July 4, 2015 at 12:23 am
RE: “Those quotes are gold!”
I agree. Those are a couple of real winners. And here’s another good one:
“The Bible calls the era that began in 1914 “the last days.” ” (WT Study Edition 08/15/2015, p. 24, #1)
As you might have guessed, there is no scripture that can be used to back up this statement.
Reply
Wendy says:
July 5, 2015 at 7:33 pm
Right ScotWm, there is no scripture that exists to back up this belief. I have spent much time going through the gyrations of how JWs get to this date, and the algebraic equation isn’t satisfied by their explanation. Basically, it’s 1260 = X + (y)X + 1/2X to arrive at that date, and unless you know the value of Y, you can not know the value of X, which they use to define as a “time.” So the whole hypothesis of all their dates fall flat without an explanation of how they arrive at 1914. Would love a rebuttal in case my math is incorrect.
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Searcher says:
July 2, 2015 at 10:05 am
Thanks Lloyd for the review and info on the latest edition of “Combating Cult Mind Control”. I read the first edition, recognizing so many similarities to Hassan’s BITE model to the WTBTS. Funny how any JW elder will swear (figuratively, of course) up and down that the Watchtower is not a cult. I’m glad that Hassan has directly referenced the Watchtower in the book as a destructive cult.
I also look forward to your new book. Keep up the good work you are doing. You are helping so many people out of the horrible control of the WTBTS.
Reply
Mike Dennis says:
July 2, 2015 at 10:54 am
Thank you Lloyd for all your good work and help to all of us who were part of this cult in the past. We all have a book in us and I hope yours helped you personally in dealing with your losses. I also have lost all my family because I refuse to accept ” the slave “. It’s so heart breaking to lose all you once held dear. I just ordered the new book from Mr. Hassan. Thank you again.
Reply
JJ says:
July 2, 2015 at 11:07 am
I’m going to say that leaving a cult is very hard. It might even be worth staying in, or leaving someone in.
My life has become a mess since I’ve left the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Not because I started drinking or taking drugs but from the loss of friends, my wife leaving me, my in laws turning against me and trying to take my family away. I know that all of this just proves how evil and wrong the cult is but to try and fight all of these people on your own is absolutely exhausting and depressing.
Then there was the ‘awakening’ to the fact that the Paradise isn’t coming and that we are all going to die. That was very hard to deal with.
Finally, growing up in the cult doesn’t provide you with the emotional background or experience to deal with the real world on different terms.
I know that this would sound silly to someone who has never been in a cult but these are very real problems for me. (I’m hoping to save my marriage and my family but my wife’s dream is shattered or having a ‘spiritual’ man as her head)
Of course I think the governments should tax all religions, investigate and charge cults that do damaging things and educate people to stay away from these groups. But it might just be better off to leave some people right where they are. Be there to support them when they do come out but don’t actively try and pull people out if they’ve been raised and have an extended family in there. As wrong as it all is, there is too much to lose for most people.
I know the cults are insidious this way but people’s lives and happiness are involved. It would be much like us going to a primitive tribe somewhere and trying to force these people into the 21st Century.
Reply
5 years out says:
July 2, 2015 at 12:19 pm
From one ex-jw to another, am sending you lots of big hugs. It isn’t easy leaving and having everything around you taken away or people attempting to take them away.
There are a few facebook groups of people who have left which (if you haven’t already joined) might help to talk about things and to come to terms with the changing situation eg:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/695974930436633/?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Excult/?fref=ts
It’s going to be tough but you can get through it :) Find people who like you for who you are not just for what you do or don’t believe
Stay strong, you can do it :)
Reply
Mike Dennis says:
July 2, 2015 at 12:34 pm
JJ, I understand your dilemmas. When I was DF, I told my wife to just come with me for one year, to travel and heal and rebuild our relationship. The only non negotiable stipulation was that no WT for that year. She could pray. Read the Bible. No WT influence. She refused, saying she was ” completely loyal to Jehovah “. As much as I tried to explain to her that the Org is not the same as Jehovah, she refused to consider it. As a consequence, I have no contact with my sons, except for business. My mother refuses to even open my letters. I was a born in. I served as an elder for many years. I saw too much that was wrong while serving. I was willing to forgive and overlook stuff because that’s our nature. ” it’s just imperfect men “. That was used too much. In combination with…” Obey those taking the lead ” it became ridiculous to try and excuse the org anymore. Even while in I tried to keep my sons and wife open minded and encouraged them to question things. Now, I see that something very bad must happen to most folks before they wake up. We cannot wake our family up if they prefer to blindly believe. As for myself, I have chosen to be true to my conscience. I cannot support the org. I believe it is stubborn, wrong on lots of levels. Just the fact that it breaks up families is reason enough to dismiss this cult. Ex JWs understand each other mostly. Find someone to talk to in your circumstance. Do not despair and return to this cult and support it to regain your families love. What a terrible way to live. I know now that if I went back to my wife, who I love still, my life and hers would be miserable. I’m an outcast now, a low life form who disrespects the ” slave. ” I have lost all I knew because of making a mistake many years ago. My wife had forgiven me, but the org didn’t. I wasn’t ” sincere enough ” in my repentance for a single act committed several years prior. If you want to get well after a life of indoctrination, you will have to work at it. Friends won’t come instantly as when you’re ” in “. You will have to take time and effort to learn patience and real love. Not love based on common beliefs. Loving your family and missing them is what makes us good humans. If the org would let folks decide for themselves who to shun or not, life would make more sense to JWs. As it is, their thinking is done for them. I am of the opinion that you cannot drag loved ones from this cult. They will leave or wKe up when they get that epiphany and realize that there are holes in the fabric of this society. In any case, good luck. We all make our own journey. Freedom to think is priceless. Aloha
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Simon Kestral says:
July 2, 2015 at 3:49 pm
Sounds like she forgave infidelity but can’t cope with rivalry against WT. Tragic. Sorry for your loss.
But you’re right about the org. I hope you stay strong and find peace of mind, with or without your wife.
In my view, a man does what a man has to do, with or without the support of loved ones. Not saying it’s time for you to move on, only you can know that. But given enough time, we all do.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 6:14 pm
JJ,
I sympathize with your statement. Know that others are going through the same as you. I wish I could tell you the story will end OK, but that may not be the case. Hang in there.
Reply
ScotWm says:
July 2, 2015 at 6:50 pm
RE: “I’m going to say that leaving a cult is very hard. It might even be worth staying in, or leaving someone in.”
You raise a valid point. I know that there are many who remain in the JW organization to avoid the very problems that you have outlined. These floaters are easy to spot because they have only moderate knowledge of the most basic Watchtower history and doctrines. They are dragged along by faithful family members and they offer absolutely no resistance to even the most asinine pronouncements of the Governing Body. They parrot back the information presented in study articles and offer no original thoughts on the material being considered.
Exposing false Watchtower doctrine to these people is only a partial solution toward helping them break free. If we can’t offer a viable alternative to Watchtower association and beliefs, a person may feel that remaining in good standing with the Watchtower organization is the better choice. Choosing to remain in a secure environment triumphs over being cast out, all alone, to face the unknown.
Reply
Meredith J says:
July 3, 2015 at 9:01 pm
So sorry to hear how the Witnesses messed up your life. I was lured into the organisation along with my hubby and kids we brought up in it. One is still in it with his family and thoroughly brainwashed. I was shattered for quite sometime not feeling right about everything. My husband felt like he had been conned for the 17 years of our lives we were in it after we made the move. We had lost so much in material wealth, it was all catch up for us. It wasn’t easy, but somehow we made a life for ourselves. You can do it and come out sane on the other side. This time you have the freedom to think for yourself for once. I know it’s not easy but it feels like you have got out of gaol. Certainly that is a real blessing. Sure we all go a bit crazy and over the top for a while. It’s like we are finding a balance which we eventually find. Hang in there brother.
Reply
Cr0okedfinger says:
July 4, 2015 at 12:14 am
Actually you’re right on JJ. As an ex-christian, I feel the same way towards my very religious family. If you’re happy as a Christian, enjoy it. Because really it’s all the same in the end. Only those who are unhappy and are seeking answers outside their religion or sect and have open minds should be given the truth, because it’ll be wasted on those not willing to listen.
The sad reality that there is no soul, and no afterlife, means that when we die, we simply cease to exist, same as all other animals. So believing in an afterlife or not is all the same in the end. All men die and we all come to nothing. Enjoy your life in the meantime, it’s the only one you’ll ever have.
PS: for several years after leaving Christianity I often felt that I was happier when I was a believer. But eventually that passed and I’m much happier and content with life now. There’s no going back for me. I could no more go back to believing in false religions than I could regain belief in Santa Claus.
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ScotWm says:
July 4, 2015 at 10:38 am
[Evangelical comment removed – please refer to posting guidelines before commenting again.]
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ScotWm says:
July 4, 2015 at 3:14 pm
I have re-read all of your comment posting guidelines. I also went back and re-read your article posted on April 11, 2015:
“My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)”
Please accept my apology for posting a personal belief that I can’t prove.
Reply
John Baptist says:
July 2, 2015 at 12:56 pm
test
Reply
John Baptist says:
July 2, 2015 at 12:59 pm
I wrote a reply and puff gone. lol I just got the book on Kindle last week. Cant wait to be done with it. Much needed!! Thank You
Reply
JJ says:
July 2, 2015 at 4:36 pm
I was, unfortunately, under the illusion that when I learned the truth about “The Truth” my wife and my Inlaws would be likewise happy and excited. I was shocked to find that Jehovah’s Witnesses DO NOT want to know anything other than what comes from their governing body. It doesn’t matter what you can prove or what makes sense, they wish to believe as they see fit and they want to know that you do too.
That knowledge is important so that you don’t make any enemies or even have cult members become suspicious of you.
Of course if you wish to leave then that’s your business and right to do so, just these ‘apostates’ or drifters should be aware of how most cult members will treat them.
Also, there is a process that happens when you realize there isn’t (or might not be) a god, an afterlife or any hope at all. When someone’s belief structure gets torn away it can be quite traumatic.
In short, you can make someone’s life better by getting them out of a cult but it can be much worse too. There are many happy Jehovah’s Witnesses who were born, raised and died in that organization. If their whole, extended family, friendships and employment were inside of the Jehovah’s Witnesses then what are you offering by getting them out?
I don’t like the JW religion but there could be worse ways to live. Ignorance is bliss.
I kind of feel like that one guy in The Matrix who was angry that he was ever taken out. I thought that I would bring my whole family happiness but I’ve only brought them misery and sadness, so far. I think that I’m right but it doesn’t matter. All of my predictions have come true (about owning a home, having a pension, making investments) but it doesn’t matter if they can’t be happy with me.
I’ll never go back in but I may have to fake it. I’ll hate it but I’ll enjoy what I can and I won’t try to take anyone else out.
My wife always asks what else I can offer her/them?!? Some people will never be ready to stare into the void.
In fact, I feel that if there are enough people like me on the inside it would weaken the organization more than all of the websites and books ever could. We could water down all of the doctrines, temper all of the discipline, break all of the cliques and simply take seats without ever contributing one penny. Really that is every cults worse nightmare; to have unbelievers present. They would form their witch hunts but they would have to be run continuously.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:11 pm
That’s deep, like The Matrix. But I could never do it, no peace of mind. The simple truth works best for me. I’d rather be Tom Hanks stranded on that island alone, than living a lie among “friends.”
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anonymous says:
July 2, 2015 at 5:57 pm
Simon, that is how I feel also. I can’t live a lie to keep friends that aren’t even friends. They are only friends as long as you agree with the lie of the Watchtower religion.
I can’t go in service to promote a lie and I can’t go to meetings and give anybody the impression that I agree with lies. I’d rather be on that island alone with my volley ball than live like that. Tom got to love that Volley ball. That volley ball would be a better friend that any of the fake friends at the hall.
If anybody at the hall cares to know why you don’t go to meetings anymore and they ask you and they listen to you and understand what you are saying and won’t turn you in as an apostate, then you have a friend.
Who knows what they will do unless when somebody asks you why you left you try and tell them, if they turn out to be a real friend or not? You won’t know unless you talk to them. That will be the real test if they are a real friend or not.
I know one thing. When I was still “in” and one of my “friends” at the hall told me about the Society belonging to the United Nations like what I first found out about last year, I would have wanted to prove them wrong. I wouldn’t have closed my ears to it and told them that I didn’t want to hear it. That is the kind of person I am and who knows? A person might have some of those kinds of friends if they try and talk to them. As for me, if those people don’t care enough about why I am not going to the meetings to ask me directly why I am not going to the meetings anymore, then I know they don’t care about me and I won’t press the issue with them. It’s painful to find out that you don’t have any friends anymore in the “truth” but I’d rather know than not know.
There is a “sister” in my old congregation who gushes about all the “friends” in our Kingdom Hall but behind her back, they talk about her all the time because she’s got such a mean and arrogant mouth. What she doesn’t know is that when people are “forced” to be nice to you, that doesn’t make them your friend.
How many of the people at the Kingdom Hall are “forced” to be nice to us? We will never know unless we drop out and they miss us so much and ask us why we left and they listen to us and give us an ear and don’t turn us in as an apostate. That is when we find out if any of those people are really our friend. A real friend will try and free their friends from the prison of the Watchtower.
I know when I left, it was difficult realizing that I was going to die and probably not see my mother and father in the resurrection but it also freed me from the thought that I was serving an insatiable organization that only wanted more and more of my time and money and I didn’t have to force myself to sit though all those boring meetings and go in service and assemblies which I hated every minute of.
I am no longer feeling the depression of feeling like I was never good enough unless I was a regular pioneer, which I couldn’t afford to do and didn’t want to do.
In a way, I am glad to find out the Watchtower was all lies because now I am free of all the guilt and fear they put on me all those years.
I have no respect for the Governing Body but I have respect for myself, which I didn’t have all those years because of what that religion did to me.
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Brent says:
July 3, 2015 at 12:01 am
The truth about the Truth is that you never had real friends in the truth. A friend will stand with you through the tough times. For that matter as a witness you don’t truly have a belief system of your own because when ever the GB changes a doctrine you must go alone with it or lose your family and your so called friends. In the end it is better to know the truth about JW friends. It is helpful to go back to the people you rejected as a Witness and ask for forgiveness for being a real turd when they needed your help. It is a very positive thing to do for them and yourself.
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Finn Sawyer says:
July 2, 2015 at 6:24 pm
JJ,
I thought about faking it for a while too. But, ultimately, I couldn’t do it. I realized it just wasn’t about me, the clincher was my kids. I couldn’t do it to my kids. They were still young enough to save. I couldn’t indoctrinate them with something I hated. That being said, it’s all uncharted territory for me now. I have a huge void where once was a pre-determined path for child-rearing. Now I have to make it up as I go along. I feel like my kids are at a disadvantage, but no more so than had I made them drink the kool-aid. At least there’s hope.
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Mike Dennis says:
July 2, 2015 at 8:26 pm
The idea of faking it makes my stomach turn. Being true to yourself beats living a lie in any universe. To each his own. To support this destructive cult is unconscionable to me. Everyone is different. One life is what we get. Spend it on the WT…your call. I wish you well JJ. Aloha
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Meredith J says:
July 3, 2015 at 9:15 pm
I’m not you JJ. We all have different circumstances, but I am not sure I would have plucked up the courage to leave if my husband had not said he wasn’t going to the meetings anymore. You see I was one of those sisters who never missed a meeting, not a week in field service or getting my pre-study (brainwashing) done. I realised after awhile he was right and so I stopped going too and did some research on the internet myself and was convinced I did the right thing after a fortnight of battling a damaged conscience. Anyway, that was my experience. I know there would be no guarantee that this would be yours.
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tim3l0rd says:
July 8, 2015 at 2:18 pm
I’m dealing with some of this too. Thankfully there are plenty of websites like this one and groups like exjw over on reddit that helped me to realize that I need to slow down and take it slowly with my wife and family.
It pains me to think that I might not be able to wake them up and that I might have to walk away from all of them. I sometimes too have thought about what would have happened had I decided to not prove the truth to myself. I honestly doubted many things for a long time and kept taking the blue pill any time a doubt would surface. I finally took the red pill as I couldn’t help someone else come into this org if I myself had any doubts. The rest was history.
Now that I’m faced with the questions and uncertainty of the future, I sometimes long for the certainty I held before waking up. However, I’m also glad for the freedom of choice that I now have.
Know that you have a “great crowd of ex-witnesses” that have been through and are going through much the same as you. I hope that eventually your family, especially your children, come around.
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Vivian says:
July 2, 2015 at 9:26 pm
I think getting a jw to read literature on cults is one of the better ways in. Even if you have never been in one I think its interesting and useful to know how the human brain can be handled and manipulated. Even a strong good mind can be controlled and directed towards unhealthy illogical lines of reasoning IF its an unassuming one. And of course that’s all children!
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Cecil B. Demented says:
July 3, 2015 at 12:57 am
As always a great read. Have to point out that at the time of reading (0855 UK time) the AAWA link isn’t working.
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Cedars says:
July 3, 2015 at 1:08 am
Thanks, fixed! :)
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David says:
July 3, 2015 at 4:56 am
Leaving the jw.org corporation is a real trauma. I cannot understand how people that study the Bible and learn Jesus teachings can be so cruel and selfish.
But the important thing is that you cannot ruin your life and the relationship with your loved ones for this heartless cult.
Unfortunatelly lots of experiences show that the organization is like a giant machine that it is prepared to destroy family relations and innocent people lives for its expansion aims.
It practices a form of inquisition and loyalty to seven men is more important of loyalty to God, If you do not agree with them you must be avoided by family members. Crazy but true.
I suggest that if you start waking up do not tell anyone. It does not matter how logic or true your points are. They will never agree. They can’t agree. The group mentality wins.
Instead try buiding relationships with people outside or no jw people and clear your mind of the cult mentality. It takes years to erase the cult mentality where even the most innocent thing is seen as gross sin (birthdays, smurfs, etc).
You could also post to blogs or write to authorities to fight for your religious freedom.
We should not loose our vantage point for this stupid organisation but instead play smart.
Remember you can excuse your inactivity by saying that you cannot teach to other non sense teachings like the overlapping generation, child baptsim or that you do not agree with their real estate materialistic attitude.
Like this you can keep contact with your jw friends, make new “worldly” friends and fight from feedom from the inside. You’ll win, they’ll loose.
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JJ says:
July 3, 2015 at 8:03 am
Thank you for all the kind words of support! I can see that many of your experiences are similar to mine.
Yesterday was a particularly hard day as I have been reported on at work. Guess by who? Yes, a good Jehovah’s Witness! (He wants to have me moved so that he could take my spot). He’s been reporting secretly on me to our superiors that even innocent and friendly things are making him feel “uncomfortable”. JW’s just don’t seem to make good friends for oneself.
The JW’s do seem to be pre-programed to drop you and to ostricize you like in some Orwellian novel.
I’m lucky that my parents aren’t like that at all but I really need to pull my family back together. How is life worth living without the people you love? Like your wife and children?
I could never go like I used to but if I have to sit through an occasional boring meeting or spend a day at an assembly or memorial then I could do that. I could do a family study using the time to get closer to my children. (Maybe not using the literature as much as hearing about their experiences and letting them talk)
Interestingly enough, my best friends are still JW’s. They are good people, the religion aside. I don’t know what would happen to them if this cult came crashing down? I mean, they’d be ok but would they go and find something else???
Again, thank you for the kind words and I really enjoy everyone’s experiences and comments. I’m glad that you all can sympathize with my plight and understand my thoughts on how hard it will be to leave a controlling cult like the JW’s.
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David says:
July 3, 2015 at 8:45 am
The rank & file are good people but the GB builds a distorted mentality. At the same time I believe the normal JW should be able to understand when something does not make sense. But they are trained to swallow all. Ideally you wish to have honesty, integrity without loosing loved ones. But is not possible at the moment. If you start having doubts keep them for yourself. Loosing loved ones is devastating, also you have developed a cult mentality and you’ll find it difficult to get used to normal people.
So better to stay in but fight for changes within the organization.
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anonymous says:
July 3, 2015 at 9:09 am
JJ, it was the hardest decision I ever made but I couldn’t support lies once I knew about all the lies in the Watchtower organization. Those people aren’t real friends. They may seem like it but a real friend will listen to you and let you talk if you disagree with them or the teachings and they will give you a listening ear and not reprove you for it. If you try and talk to them and they turn a deaf ear to you, you will know who is your real friend. We don’t need “friends” like that.
If you need moral support, read some books like Gentile Times Reconsidered or Crisis of Conscience. Watch videos over and over again. Lloyd’s are wonderful. If you watch them over and over again, it gives you strength to stand up for the real truth but you need to keep watching them over and over again to keep you strong.
It takes a long time to get to the point that just stepping foot in the Kingdom Hall seems like stepping into cow sh**t and you have nothing but pity for all those still stuck in the tower.
Believe me, there are people at that Kingdom Hall that you go to, that go because their arms are being twisted. Just look at the faces of the people in the audience in the jwbroadcasting video about Mosambique. Does even one of those people look happy to be there???
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David says:
July 3, 2015 at 9:19 am
The problem is brainwashing. The leaders use big words to convince the people. Everybody wants a better world, life after death. The outer appearance of the leaders is trustable and therefore ignorant and gullable people become victims. It is like the people who sell cancer cures. You want to live and may become victim of this charlatans. The rank & file have a some responsibility because you cannot be completely stupid. But I don’t think the normal JW are not friends, they think they doing God will, but in reality they are followers of men.
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Wendy says:
July 5, 2015 at 8:09 pm
David, I never thought of it like that before but you are right, the way the JWs entice you to commit to them is by promising you a cure for death, just like a quack will offer magnetic bracelets or coffee enemas as a cure for cancer. It’s a pull on everyone’s desire to live forever and when people are desperate they will try anything. This is not to say that I don’t believe in anything else after our life on earth is through, only that I can see how manipulative the WT is by directing their initial conversations towards everyone’s basic fears. Snake Oil 101.
Ted says:
July 3, 2015 at 10:13 am
Facing up to oblivion, after becoming wise to the cult con
Just contemplating eternity makes my head spin.
Of course it would be difficult to choose a cut off point
for myself. But endless life on that scale, scares the hell
outta me! Oblivion’s not so bad anyway, we’ve all been
there before, and I don’t recall any anguish, or trauma, or
“Anything at all”.
The chances of anyone of us being here are truly astronomical.
All our ancestors had to stay alive till they were old enough to
procreate. Thousands of chance meetings had to happen.
Just one variation, and we wouldn’t be here. So I’m just
grateful for this shot. no one owes me anything else.
The “Lure” offered by our favourite cult. — Everlasting life on
Earth, is obliterated by scientific evidence. In the cosmos out
there, stars like our Sun are exploding every second. Anyone
who thinks we’re gonna get away with it, is living in the stone
age. It will be hell down here then, not paradise!
Before that though, Gravity is forcing our galaxy on a collision
course with the Andromeda Galaxy. eta, 2.6 bill, years.,
( there seems to be a flaw in the design somewhere! )
I’m sighing with relief, that I won’t be around to witness any of
those events.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 3, 2015 at 10:32 am
Not all science is good science. They now say there may not be as many galaxies as once thought. An apparent “flaw in the design” may later be exposed as bad science.
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tiger123 says:
July 3, 2015 at 12:36 pm
JJ
I, like so many sympathize with your loss of family and friends.
The fact that so many do not want to know that they are going to die only hastens death. Consider this, if you were on a train track and a train was coming would you want to know, or ignore that fact. Knowing certainly would be an advantage, because by knowing you would have a chance to get off of the tracks.
Consider the facts, at the turn of the 20th century the life expectancy around the world was less than 40 years. Jehovah’s Witnesses have contributed 0 years to anyones life expectancy. They have given nothing to cancer treatment, Sciences of the heart, lungs, kidneys, or the cure to any disease or illness. Look at those who openly acknowledge they are in the path of the train (atheist and agnostic) Collectively they have cured many cancers. My mother is living proof of this. She had a cancer that would have killed her decades ago and she is able to take a simple medication monthly and leads a normal life. Leukemia, once considered the most tragic diagnosis, today we have a cure for several types of the disease and are working hard to end aml. Look at Ebola, in the developed scientific world we do not even have to worry. In the superstitious underdeveloped world, death spreads unchecked. Today, smallpox (which took between 300million-500million lives in the 20th century) cured. Polio, tetanus, rabies, whooping cough, rinderpest, yellow fever, rabies are things we do not even think about, but only 100 years ago they plagued and killed 100s of millions.
By our facing our own mortality we have waged a war against death leading us to better health and a much longer life expectancy. Today modern technology moves forward with limitless possibilities. We change things at a molecular level. Computer chips, literally are altered at the smallest level. Stem cell research continues to provide solutions that were science fiction only a few decades ago. We grow fruits and plants in the desert using hydroponics, once considered impossible. Our opportunities are boundless.
Not only is life longer, today, we no longer demonize the mentally ill. Today we have so many ways to help those who struggle with mental illness and in more and more cases effective cures and aids enabling people to lead happier lives. Again JWs contributed nothing, they even demonized the mental health field for a long time.
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tiger123 says:
July 3, 2015 at 12:40 pm
The real question is this, if you know the train is coming, do you focus on the train and impending death or a way to get off the tracks. JWs have trained you to focus on the train and feel sorry for yourself. By doing this you will ignore your own talents and ability to lead a full happy life.
You my friend have opportunities that are limitless, take your eyes off the train and don’t feel sorry for yourself. You have abilities that you are yet to discover, those abilities will outshine Watchtowers glib world. Take the time you would to go to a meeting and volunteer at a hospital, a park, or a fundraiser. Then and only then can you contribute to all of humanity including your family and lead a life of purpose. Nothing attracts people to you more than a life of purpose. Your case will be so much more valid when you decide to begin that journey. Don’t give in, you have so much more to offer them than giving in. Find your talent and help us all live longer and better lives.
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anonymous says:
July 3, 2015 at 1:09 pm
JJ, I’d like to add to some of the comments to you too and I also feel for you. We were all at where you are at. If you listen to Lloyd’s videos, it took him about 10 years to break completely once he started doubting and I think for me it was probably 10 years too.
What the Watchtower does to us that learn what the real truth is, is devastating in so many ways. In a way, to live in the bubble works for a lot of people. They like being in the “truth” and it works for them. They will continue to think that they are saving the world through the Watchtower and it gives them real purpose in life and it will until they get old and die, still waiting for the “real” life and right up until they day they die, they have the hope that Armageddon is going to come in their lifetime and they won’t have to die.
The problem is that we do only get one life (if the Watchtower is wrong). If they are wrong, then we don’t get a second chance. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard comments like “I wished I could learn to play an instrument but there isn’t enough time but in the new world”…..It’s always in the new world is when they will do something that they really want to do but because of being a Witness, there isn’t enough time.
Before they know it, they are old and it’s too late to have accomplished something in their very brief life, waiting for the “real” world.
It takes about 10,000 hours to learn to be really good at something. If you took those 10,000 hours to be really accomplished at something, the people in the Watchtower would think you were a terrible person for not taking those 10,000 hours and spending it in the door to door work saving lives. You are not allowed to be good at anything or you will be viewed as “materialistic” or something bad. You have to give up your life, waiting for something that may never come. Millions of people have given up their one and only life and are now dead and went to the grave thinking that they will wake up in the “new world” perfect. That is when they think they will finally have a life but the precious life that they were blessed with right now is being pissed away on a fantasy.
It is the Watchtower Society that has put us in that terrible position of staying in to keep our friends and family or leave and be all alone in life. My hope is that soon the Society will be exposed for the dangerous cult that is really is and it will come crashing down and all of us and you will be set free from it’s prison.
A lot of people say that you should build up friends now and then fade slowly. My way of doing it may not have brought anybody out (except my youngest daughter) but I am not ashamed of telling them straight out that the Governing Body are a bunch of idiots who don’t deserve even one ounce of respect from me. I won’t even pretend to anybody that I don’t hate each and every one of them and consider them all to be blood guilty for thousands upon thousands of lives lost due to their man made policy about blood transfusions. I don’t even care whether or not my family and former friends think. I know that what I am saying is the 100% truth and that is good enough for me. I can’t pretend and I can’t cover up for those men. They are all scam artists and I am not afraid to tell anybody and everybody including the elders and have but it takes time to get to that point.
What I rely on when or if I get a chance to tell anybody is how the Society disfellowshipped Carl Olof Jonsson because he proved the Society wrong about 607 B.C.E. I can’t forgive them for doing that to him and I am not afraid to voice my thoughts about it and I will tell anybody that they should be ashamed to be supporting an organization that would do that to their brother.
It took me a long time for my hate to get to that point. At first I wanted to give the Governing Body the benefit of a doubt but no more. There is no way that they don’t know what they are doing. Nobody can be that stupid.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 3, 2015 at 2:40 pm
Don’t underestimate the power of stupidity. Hitler thought he was an agent of God!
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord” (Mein Kampf)
These people deceive themselves. Who knows why, but they do.
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anonymous says:
July 3, 2015 at 5:27 pm
Simon, touche’. You are so right.
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applause says:
July 3, 2015 at 2:46 pm
Anonymous, I just wanted to tell you that I was very touched by your very articulate comment explaining what a waste of a life it is to cling to this cult. Kudos to every single person out there who is working to expose this cult and stop people from wasting the one chance at life that we know we have on delusional hopes and fantasies.
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anonymous says:
July 3, 2015 at 5:28 pm
applause, thank you for saying that.
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Ted says:
July 3, 2015 at 4:11 pm
Hi Simon I can’t argue against your point that there is bad
science. But I don’t think there’s a lot of it about.
Scientists debating, disputing, testing out the various ideas
is the way that knowledge is refined. That surely cannot be
classed as bad.
My comment was not about the varying opinions of the number
of galaxies in the universe. But just the future of 2 galaxies
that are thought to be on a collision course. Thereby ruling out
eternal life. On Earth. As well as casting doubt on the efficacy
of a system that’s heading for destruction.
If you have any evidence, or even reasonable suggestions that
that the galaxies will win out against the force of gravity, or
that the earth will abide forever, I would welcome it , as I’m
sure the scientific community would also.
best wishes.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 3, 2015 at 5:37 pm
“Thought to be” is not hard evidence, the essence of good science. Your assertion about eternal life is more about faith, or lack thereof, than science. And the article is about cults, not science vs. eternal life.
We could debate whether science worship is a virtual cult. But that may annoy the moderators.
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Cedars says:
July 3, 2015 at 11:59 pm
“We could debate whether science worship is a virtual cult. But that may annoy the moderators.”
You could debate it by yourself if you like, but I doubt anyone but other religious fundamentalists would be interested in debating a motion based on a false premise, i.e. that accepting science is a form of “worship,” or that evidence-based theories about our universe are akin to religious dogma.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 4, 2015 at 1:06 am
Science provable by experimentation is good science. I didn’t say that was worship.
A theory is just an idea until proven by experimentation. Unproven theories are sometimes exaggerated with speculation. Accepting unsupported speculation in the guise of science can amount to worship.
Why you class me with “religious fundamentalists” is puzzling. Is any praise of God or the Bible offensive to you?
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Cedars says:
July 4, 2015 at 1:15 am
I didn’t call you a religious fundamentalist. I suggested your motion was one that only religious fundamentalists would be interested in “debating.”
“A theory is just an idea until proven by experimentation. Unproven theories are sometimes exaggerated with speculation. Accepting unsupported speculation in the guise of science can amount to worship.”
You don’t know what “theory” means in a scientific context. I suggest you look it up to avoid any further embarrassment.
Simon Kestral says:
July 4, 2015 at 1:31 am
In physics, theories are proven by experimentation. In mathematics, theories can be proven with formal logic. Are you familiar with Gödel’s ontological proof?
Not that I want to convince you of what Gödel proved. I can agree to disagree. No need to become enemies over this.
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Cedars says:
July 4, 2015 at 1:41 am
I am familiar with the ontological argument, and I agree with Dawkins’ assessment that it is essentially a word salad and piece of trickery that doesn’t bear serious scrutiny.
But I strongly suggest you look closer at what a theory is in the context of science. Your comments suggest you aren’t fully versed on that score… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
Simon Kestral says:
July 4, 2015 at 2:03 am
It says “A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation”
I see no cause for embarrassment on my part.
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Cedars says:
July 4, 2015 at 2:11 am
If you see no contradiction with your earlier assertion that “a theory is just an idea until proven by experimentation,” then no, there is no cause for embarrassment.
ScotWm says:
July 3, 2015 at 5:54 pm
I’m glad to see that author Steven Hassan has credited Randall Watters with helping him understand the Watchtower’s cult-like attributes. I have read some of the experiences of Randall Watters and I was particularly impressed with his conclusions as to the operation of Bethel leadership.
According to Watters, all of the constantly-changing Watchtower doctrinal inventions are done for one purpose; to control the masses. The actual doctrines are irrelevant. Convincing others, through the use of clever manipulation, is the key to allowing the Governing Body to maintain power. The literature, meetings, assemblies and field service are all used to control the minds of Watchtower followers. Any who openly doubt the teachings of the power-hungry Governing Body are thrown out of the organization. Not surprisingly, Watchtower leaders have a history of trying to control each other.
After the death of Watchtower founder Charles Russell, Joseph Rutherford engaged in a power grab and gained control of the Watchtower. This was done against the expressed wishes of Russell. More power struggles followed as Fred Franz rose to the top and became the Watchtower’s undisputed prophet. Recently, Pastor Russell was stripped of his faithful slave status. At the same time, all of the remaining 144,000, who claim to have the heavenly calling, were also striped of their faithful slave status. So now, only a handful of high-ranking Watchtower leaders, those who comprise the Governing Body, are left to fight among themselves for the top spot. If Watchtower history is any indication, the members of the Governing Body are already plotting against each other as each one tries to gain control over the others.
As Randall Watters said, it’s all about control. Will some of the faithful eventually see what is really going on at Watchtower headquarters? We can only hope.
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Sheree says:
July 4, 2015 at 3:24 am
So proud to see your experience in the book Lloyd! I downloaded it as soon as I heard about it. Well done. Your story can help so many.
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Ted says:
July 4, 2015 at 8:08 am
So many good points in your article Lloyd. The quote
from Steven’s book about, countries that grant tax exemption
to cults like JWs, should be held responsible for the harm
inflicted by them. Is very sound.
Also, information is the key to complete freedom. The Org,
wants to keep us in, pre- 1980s ignorance. Some totalitarian
regimes, have put people to death for owning a cell phone.
The WTS, can’t go to these extremes, or even ban us from
owning computers etc. So ludicrous statements like
“Sharing at the table demons” are used to frighten people off.
Only their own jw,org site is recommended as safe. The same
tactic is employed by the one family controlled regime of
N,Korea. They have just one, “State Controlled” TV station.
Life after JWdom. What do we replace it with?– “Freedom”!
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Bret says:
July 4, 2015 at 2:01 pm
Cedar;
Since you are writing a book and it includes some history. Thought you might research and do a video of this:
1)There are accusations made that Rutherford was expelled from Bethell by Russell for conduct and drinking.
2) Rutherfords take over of the Watchtower and turning it into a “Organization” is not what it truly is or happened in the proclaimers book.
Rutherford began anslow process of takng control of every congregation except a few who would not submitt and introduced mind controlling doctrine through fear Phobias such as a new “Armegeddon” quite different from what Russell taugh. Along with many other control phobia doctrines..
A true look at his take over and perhaps his evolution of this group into an organization cult.
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Finn Sawyer says:
July 5, 2015 at 11:40 am
I bought this book and have been flipping through it as I have time. The parallels Mr. Hassan highlights between JWs and other cults methodologies are striking.
Not to discredit the latest edition, but I think I will purchase the older edition as well. I want to have it on-hand in the event I can share it with my JW family and friends. As stated, since the older edition did not mention JWs I think it might still be in “safe” territory, whereas I believe currently indoctrinated JWs would reject the new book outright after seeing how it includes JWs in its cult descriptions. The October 2015 Watchtower (study edition) article entitled “The Naive Person Believes Every Word” instructs JWs to reject anything that isn’t positive about the org–an unbelievable request to ask of anyone with a brain IMO. Mr. Hassan, if you’re reading this: I am not a cult expert but the article I referenced above seems striking in its attempt at mind control–might make an excellent excerpt for your next edition!
Reply
Sardec says:
July 6, 2015 at 11:03 am
Just reading the BITE model online 2 years ago is what woke me up.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
July 7, 2015 at 3:55 pm
That’s apart of what woke me up as well!
Just got through purchasing the the 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind control on Amazon. I’m so excited to start reading it.
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← The Book Corner – Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant
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Posted on July 6, 2015
Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse
Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse
Governing Body member Tony Morris has used the July 2015 episode of JW Broadcasting to indulge in an astonishing rant about child abuse, seemingly in response to the onslaught of negative publicity Watchtower has faced in recent years.
In his nine-minute statement on the matter, Morris shows two video presentations and reads from a 1982 Awake! magazine in attempting to make the case that Watchtower has always been “pro-active” in making the protection of children a “top priority.”
At one point, Morris unleashes an astonishing swipe at gay people in an apparent attempt to scapegoat homosexuals as being the main perpetrators of child abuse. “It [an Awake! article] warned about homosexual men who prey on and advocate the right to use boys for sex. Shame on them!” he says. (See time stamp 02:49 in the video below.)
The 1982 “‘Chickens’ and ‘Hawks'” article to which Morris alludes is a shameless piece of propaganda blaming homosexuals in general for child prostitution rings that flourished in the 80s and 90s, and which society itself has condemned (such as in the 1994 award-winning documentary “Chicken Hawk: Men Who Love Boys“). (See Wikipedia article)
Morris’ exploitation of this isolated controversy to make a sweeping generalization about gay people represents only the latest example of what appears to be a pattern of homophobic bigotry above and beyond even the scathing condemnation of gays and lesbians found in Watchtower publications.
Last year Morris was voted one of 2014’s craziest “right-wing nutjobs” by Advocate magazine for his baffling comments at last year’s United States Branch Visit, at which he warned of a conspiracy whereby homosexuals are designing tight clothing merely to lust after men’s bodies. (See time stamp 03:20 in the video below.)
And only recently, at the 2015 regional convention, Morris made a not-so-thinly-veiled declaration of his disapproval at Ireland’s recent referendum legalizing same-sex marriage.
Clearly Morris has an axe to grind against homosexuals for reasons best known to himself, but that he should mobilize his bigotry against gays in defense of the organization’s outrageous record on mishandling child abuse is bewildering to say the least.
Head in the sand
Homophobic scapegoating aside, Morris’ comments are a fascinating example of the organization’s “head in the sand” approach in the face of mounting media scrutiny of Watchtower’s child abuse track record.
This strategy was most recently deployed by Stephen Lett, who used a recorded “morning worship” speech to claim that media attention on the issue was nothing but “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
As much as activists like myself desperately wish there to be no problem in this area, and as much as we yearn for JW children to be protected, various facts are well-documented and glaringly obvious, namely:
◾Watchtower has been found legally responsible for its mishandling of child abuse in courts of law on several occasions in two different countries (see articles on Candace Conti, Jose Lopez and the latest UK high court judgment), in some cases being ordered to pay multimillion dollar damages for their negligence
◾Watchtower gathers and holds information concerning an unknown number of pedophiles, thought to number into the thousands, on a database. Watchtower admitted the existence of the database in a 2002 fax to the BBC, and it lost the Jose Lopez case in part because it refused to divulge the contents of the database in that particular trial. (See this Huffington Post interview video.)
◾Watchtower publications do not urge parents to report allegations of child abuse to authorities in all instances
◾Watchtower elders have been criticized for covering up instances of child abuse from the authorities, as in the cases of Mark Sewell, Jonathan Rose and Gordon Leighton
◾Watchtower instructions to elders in the 2010 Shepherd the Flock of God book and subsequent instructional letters uphold the “two witness rule,” whereby if there is no witness to an allegation of child molestation (or no allegation from a second victim is forthcoming) elders are to “leave matters in Jehovah’s hands,” as the following scan clearly shows
◾Watchtower instructions to elders also maintain the position that the branch office, not the police, should be the first to hear of a report of abuse, and that past child molestation does not necessarily bar someone from serving as an elder in the congregation
child-sex-abuseNone of the above pressing issues are addressed or even alluded to in Morris’ nine-minute statement. Instead he heaps praise on the organization for taking “a decisive stand,” for being “pro-active,” and for making the safeguarding of children a “top priority.”
A reputation to be proud of?
Morris even summons the gall to claim: “We are proud of our reputation in this regard.” Irrespective of what Morris or other Governing Body members may think of their handling of child abuse, if there is one thing beyond dispute in this area, it is that Watchtower’s reputation is not one to be proud of.
One possible strategy Morris might have employed if he had an ounce of humility would be to throw his hands up and admit that, like other organizations, Watchtower was simply caught off guard at a time when the threat posed by child abuse wasn’t fully understood.
Instead, Morris adopts the reverse approach by suggesting the organization was always ahead of the game while secular authorities were floundering and “somewhat naive” as to the magnitude of the problem.
As an example of Watchtower’s foresight he parades the “landmark” 1982 Awake! magazine as highlighting the scourge of child abuse over thirty years ago. But it should go without saying that it is one thing to highlight child abuse as a problem, but another thing entirely to offer effective advice.
For example, the article in that magazine titled “To End Child Abuse” gives the following advice, few aspects of which can be considered especially relevant…
◾“[The bible] calls for close communication between parent and child”
◾“[Psychologists] say parents must be fair and set good examples, but children need regulations and discipline”
◾Sex education promotes masturbation and homosexuality. “Regardless of the pros and cons of sex education, the hard fact is the tremendous increase in child prostitution, sodomy, pornography and incest.”
◾“In God’s due time all who embrace his kingdom under Christ will become able to keep this law of love perfectly… This is the only way, the final way, to end child abuse.”
Watchtower’s 1982 guidance on protecting children from predators thus called for (1) better communication between parents and children, (2) strong parental discipline, (3) less sex education and (4) God’s kingdom. This advice, claims Morris, “straightforwardly addressed” the issue and, combined with subsequent magazine articles can be considered as exonerating Watchtower.
What Morris doesn’t mention is that not one of the magazine articles on child abuse published over the last few decades specifically tell Witness parents to go to the authorities with any and all allegations of abuse, which is surely the first priority in the wake of a crime of such magnitude being perpetrated. One 1993 Awake! article even goes so far as to suggest that, in certain cases, “the legal system may offer little hope of successful prosecution.” (Awake! 1993 10/8 page 9)
Morris attempts to throw up a smokescreen early in his presentation by asserting: “Our policy as an organization is that one professing to be a victim, or his parents, should never be discouraged from reporting the incident to the appropriate authorities.” But this is nothing more than a play on words, and a deliberate attempt to deceive.
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath of an attack
True, Watchtower doesn’t expressly dissuade parents from going to the authorities, but it doesn’t persuade them either. Morris thus overtly relies on the ignorance of his audience regarding the nuances of Watchtower’s policies in an attempt to dupe them into thinking reporting is encouraged, even though the organization has yet to issue such instructions to elders despite repeated courtroom defeats.
At best, Watchtower literature over the decades has taught children to be able to identify predators and report such ones to their parents – the most recent example of which is the Caleb and Sophia cartoon presented by Morris in this video.
But teaching children to resist predators is only a fraction of any meaningful, effective child-safeguarding policy. The whole reason why child abuse is so evil is precisely because, for obvious reasons, children will always be vulnerable in the face of any sufficiently determined and opportunistic predatory pedophile, irrespective of how much resistance they put up.
Any child safeguarding policy worth its salt must thus adequately address what to do in the aftermath of an attack so that pedophiles are swiftly apprehended, and this is precisely where Watchtower falls woefully short. Parents are not told to go straight to the authorities by elders in every instance, they are merely informed that this is their “responsibility.”
Throw into the mix the perception that child abuse is a sin that the elders have a remit to investigate, the importance of “waiting on Jehovah,” the stigmatization of taking your “brother” to court, and fears surrounding slander and false accusations, and the likelihood of the police being left out of the loop entirely becomes all too apparent.
Worse than you think
I recently found myself in a phone conversation with a BBC journalist regarding Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse. I expressed to her my frustration at the perception among Witnesses and Watchtower apologists that so-called “apostates” like myself are exaggerating the problem of child abuse.
I told her that, if anything my colleagues and I are understating the magnitude of the problem, because some of the horrendous stories we hear about privately simply cannot be publicized for various reasons.
She replied: “Welcome to the world of journalism.” This, apparently, is the challenge all journalists face in covering important stories where the full grisly horror of what is happening simply cannot be revealed for a myriad of issues including privacy, court orders and so on.
Tony Morris and the Governing Body may desperately want there to be no problem regarding child abuse, but as the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire. When you add up the relentless stream of child abuse reports in the press, including several clear instances where Watchtower has been found guilty and ordered to pay eye-watering sums in compensation, it is clear that, far from being ahead of the game, the organization is ablaze with this problem.
And documented evidence in the organization’s own instructions to elders leaves the Governing Body red-handed in not taking child abuse seriously enough by considering it a sin first, and a crime second.
For all his bluster, boasting and outrageous gay-bashing, the frustration and desperation of Tony Morris and his fellow Governing Body members is becoming painfully obvious.
Putting their hands over their ears and saying “la, la, la” in the face of serious accusations of child safeguarding negligence may work for them personally, but this juvenile charade only adds to their culpability as court after court finds Watchtower negligent. And growing numbers of Jehovah’s Witnesses are seeing straight through it.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Rawstory: Jehovah’s Witness leader promotes child safety cartoon with homophobic rant
◾Freethinker: JW chief targets gays in child abuse video
◾Taze.co: Jehovah’s Witnesses link Homosexuality to Child Abuse in official Broadcast, like it’s 1979
◾JWvictims: The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses Blame Homosexuals for the Pedophilia in Their Religion
◾Stephen Lett slams “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” concerning child abuse record
◾After his branch visit performance, is “Tight Pants Tony” now a liability for the Governing Body?
◾“We will decide who is a predator!” – New Watchtower Instructions to Elders on Child Abuse
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
A full video rebuttal of the JW Broadcasting episode in question is forthcoming, and will be embedded at the foot of this article when complete.
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43 Responses to Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant
dontknowwheretogo says:
July 6, 2015 at 7:15 am
It is not so much WHAT iTony is ranting about that I enjoy but the fact that he IS ranting, and ranting way more than the other GB members.
He reveals his true colors, what is in his heart (a scripture came to mind but I forget) and it is becoming clearer and clearer this man is not “right” and has “issues”.
He will become a valuable tool in waking up others, ironic isn’t?
Lloyd, perhaps you should call him to tell him he is deluded and helping others wake up to TTATT…oh wait…
Any more details on your chat with the BBC? It is annoying there is not more coverage…Conti case gets settled and there is hardly a peep from any mediastreams…
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
July 6, 2015 at 7:43 am
I have a hypothesis, that others may feel free to shoot down, but seeing these types of incendiary statements from the GB makes me think that this may be a reaction to their own irrelevance.
I was indoctrinated with the idea that JWs were so special and important that Armageddon would come when they would draw the anger of the nations, etc. and be persecuted. That has not happened.
I often think this is some type of strategy (whether conscious or not) by the GB to get the world to notice them. I can imagine being in the 21st century as a JW beginning to realize that most people don’t really care what JWs think, stand for, etc.
What do you do when you seem irrelevant? What do you do when the promised persecution/Great Tribulation has not come? Well, maybe you get in people’s faces and say controversial things and try to create the situation. Maybe they are trying to draw the ire of the world and spin that as persecution. If this is their strategy we should expect more and more controversial public statements and doubling down on controversial doctrines (e.g. blood, shunning, etc.).
Of course I could be wrong…
Reply
Badshah says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:38 am
I don’t have a credible source for this, but I read ‘somewhere’ that your explanation was exactly why Rutherford came up with the no blood policy, to draw the ire of the world and spark persecution. I wish I could find where I read that.
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JWIntellect says:
July 7, 2015 at 3:12 pm
When I was in the religion I really thought, as did many other former Jehovah’s Witnesses, that we were truly a “theatrical spectacle to the world,” but I’ve since come to the immediate realization since abandoning the organization that, quite frankly, no one gives a damn about Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are an irrelevant, insignificant bunch to the world that no one even thinks about. The idea of being the center of attention was merely an illusion.
Your hypothesis isn’t too far fetched. It sounds credible to me. The nations are not paying any attention to Jehovah’s Witnesses and so their leaders are attempting to garner this attention by making provocative and incendiary comments about extremely sensitive issues.
I think one of the reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses were so intensely anti-Catholic in its early days was because of its own less than prominent status in comparison to the Catholic Church. The Governing Body and the Watchtower in no way, shape, or form have the kind of influence and power that the Pope and the Catholic Church have in the world, and so it would only seem right in their eyes to attack the big man on campus in order to gain some clout themselves.
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Faithful Witness says:
July 6, 2015 at 7:55 am
As a non-JW victim of child sexual abuse myself, I know how hard it is to report abuse to your own parents. I was not subjected to the intimidation faced by JW kids, and it still took me 4 years to say anything to my mom. When I brought this topic up with my (now) JW mother after the Candace Conti verdict, she replied with accusations of greed on the part of alleged victims.
Blame the victim? These ARE Witnesses of Jehovah… (or WERE, until they started making up stories about those who are supposed to be protecting them…??)
How can you be proud to represent an organization that refuses to protect the most innocent and helpless among them?
I continue to watch my family get more divided, as my parents & sister surrender their minds & lives to this high-control religious organization. If an adult wants to give up their worldly ways and join a rule and work-based religion, that is one thing. Children of JW’s have no say in the matter.
Reply
Cognitive Loop says:
July 6, 2015 at 9:17 am
Good to see you again, FW. Hope things get better for you and yours. Plus I am very glad to see that you stood up well against the “elderettes” and their continued attempts to get you to come back to the indoctrination-fest, aka meetings.
Reply
Mama Joy says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:05 am
Um….When was pedophillia the “new morality”?
Also, saying you protect kids doesn’t make it so.
I was told to not tell on my Dad to child services because then he would be taken to jail and it would be my fault.
Then the scripture about not taking a brother to court was used and I was told I would go live with worldly people and if anything happened to my Dad in prison it would be all my fault and I would be blood guilty in Jehovah’s eyes.
The elders knew and said I needed to be more obedient. I had to secretly video record him before they would do anything…., then they made it their mission to punish me for getting my Dad disfellowshipped. They sent spies (concerned sisters) to grill me for anything they could pin on me.
This video sounds good, like they actually help children, but the reality is way different.
If you try to go to “proper authorities” (law enforcement or them only???) they will insist they handle the issue. And believe me they will talk to the person and that’s it. Your child will have to go to the meetings with their abuser and then as a parent if you tell the police, they will disfellowship you (for imprisoning a brother and not going through Gods proper channels).
Reply
tosch says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:12 am
I can’t help thinking that, when Toni Morris stresses the ‘appropriate authorities’, he might have a different definition in mind than we do. By adding ‘appropriate’, he seems to somehow include the elders… or am I wrong here?
Reply
Cognitive Loop says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:30 am
He states, “However, to take advantage of innocent young ones is absolutely despicable. As a religious organization, we have taken a decisive stand against such behavior” (approx 40 second mark).
Couple of things:
Firstly, they made make taking advantage of young ones into an art form. Someone quoted a gov body member that some child of 5yo had been ‘pioneering since 4yo and was now still pioneering at age 10′. Also, teenagers should have their drivers licenses used as leverage, in order to get dunked into a lifetime of servitude to this real estate corporation.
Secondly, the legal weasel-language is strong in that second quoted sentence. “As a religious organization, we cherry pick which scriptures back up our stance” would be much more accurate. They use Deuteronomy 19:15 to hold up as original two witness “law”, which had everything to do with REAL ESTATE, not rape. Yet if you page over to Deuteronomy 22:25, it actually discusses rape and that the woman needs no other witness if she was somewhere where no one would hear her screams. “[…] only the man who has done this shall die.”
But the real good news is this: they are feeling it, as far as the blowback of their misuse of the scriptures and horrible treatment of victims goes. The internet is shining a light on these virtual cockroaches (the gov body being the topmost ones) and their heinous behavior towards victims, including courtroom behavior, such as Gordon Leighton case, where elders refused to state the man confessed to molesting the child! And whole congregations standing behind the guilty elder, only on his side of the courtroom, leaving the victim and family to stand alone.
– – –
“Courtroom shenanigans
Rose arrived for his trial at Manchester Crown Court with an entourage of Witness supporters, including several elders. But this inundation of fans did not impress the judge.
With the trial threatening to descend into a circus on only the first day, the judge ordered that the court’s public gallery and even the waiting area should be off-limits to all but family and those involved in the proceedings.
Despite this ruling, certain elders are said to have ignored orders by trying to sit beside Rose in a public show of support – even though this was to lead to their ejection from the courtroom. The pleas of one elder to present evidence in support of Rose were similarly denied after complaints from the victims’ side.
Watchtower representatives emerge
A surprising feature of the trial was the arrival of two Watchtower representatives from bethel towards the end of the first week. Both were relatively young, perhaps in their thirties. Their identities are as yet unknown.
The victims’ side looked on in disgust as, for the remaining days of the trial, these representatives sat firmly on the defendant’s side of the courtroom, consulting with Rose and making it clear as to on whose side their allegiance fell.
Only when confronted emotionally by one of the victims’ family members on the final day of the trial did they accept that their behavior in supporting Rose so openly was inappropriate. After this exchange, they elected to sit in a more neutral position from that point onwards.”
– – –
^ That ain’t even the half of it, as they say.
Yup, the Watchtower sure hates deplorable behavior and stands firmly against child abuse/molesters.
edit – Not sure why my replies are not coming through. Hoping this one will.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
July 6, 2015 at 11:11 am
Good point about Deuteronomy 22:25. A two witness requirement does not apply to sexual crimes. The same chapter says rape is like murder, where there may be no witnesses at all. Nevertheless, the one found guilty is put to death.
Common sense says a two witness requirement cannot apply to sexual crimes. I don’t expect much common sense from the GB though. They claim to be the “faithful and discreet slave” without consulting the master.
Not much common sense in that.
Reply
Cognitive Loop says:
July 7, 2015 at 1:12 pm
They have zero proof that they are indeed chosen by god. Funny how a child who is raped must produce two witnesses against his/her attacker, and yet the Gov Bod need no proof that they are who they claim to be.
Terry over at JWN pointed out that “Annointed” is an interesting title for these Brooklyn-based false prophet clowns to lay claim to: Hebrew translates the word to “Messiah”, and in Greek it translates as “Christós” or Christ.
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
July 8, 2015 at 1:18 am
That behavior makes me sick… I’m at a loss as to what to do for my two young children being raised in my once loved beliefs… :(
Reply
Brad says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:32 am
This is becoming more laughable from the perspective of those of us who have left and have lifted the veil.
Sadly, it becomes sadder and sadder these attempts by the GB in their literature, broadcasts, morning worships, cartoons, and letters to elders have little to no effect on the masses because of their minds.
Unless something changes in the court systems the WT will continue to shell out payments that will hurt it but not cripple it, and they will continue to grow and deceive more people.
I want to post links to all of these articles on my public social media pages since I know all of my former friends check my page from time to time but this will drive them right away since they will see it as Satan’s deceptive propaganda. He is the ruler of this world and controls the media after all with his master puppeteer skills..
The WT is doing the only thing they know how: portray an image of what they want to be believe and instill fear if you believe anything else.
Hope change is coming some time soon. As the org grows, so will the amount of children being taken advantage of.
Reply
Kat says:
July 6, 2015 at 11:10 am
Once again they use a foolish picture of a small girl, dolly in hand telling her “father” or some man a firm NO! As if that would work, in your own bedroom, with you fully dressed and I could go on. That is not an accurate portrayal of the problem, and as usual it will put the blame for sexual assault on the victim. Katie darling, did you tell Elder Jackson a firm NO! when he asked to see under your dress? Yes, brothers I did, I told him NO! and said Jehovah doesn’t like this! Good girl, your free to go and Elder Jackson you too may go and geez Willie, next time hit up a worldly girl!!!! You guys are making our job tougher than it needs be…makes me sick but that is the way my case went.
Reply
Daniel O'Brien says:
July 6, 2015 at 12:25 pm
Cedars, that was one of the most balanced and clear articles that you have ever written on this subject.
A very bright light needs to be continuously shone on this problem if it is ever to be eradicated.
Well done!
Reply
Jill Hileman says:
July 6, 2015 at 12:32 pm
Hi Lloyd,
Would you consider taking the above child abuse handling bullet points along with the literature references only and creating a document or article specifically for use in forwarding to Witnesses who are fence-sitting?
If I sent this article as is, it would be immediately ignored, labeled propaganda. But mothers of young children deserve to know these facts, being obscured by the GB.
Reply
Cedars says:
July 7, 2015 at 12:32 am
That’s a good suggestion Jill, thank you. I am considering making a YouTube video of JUST those points with the aim of putting Witnesses in the picture in the face of an apparent determined effort on the part of the Governing Body to misinform on this issue.
Reply
Ted says:
July 6, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Morris’s feigned concern for children is sickening.
Sure they’re worried about Paedophillia in their org.
But mainly because of the bad publicity, and the effect
it will have on recruitment, and possible defection.
Plus the cost of expensive litigation and the threat to
their tax exempt status.
If they were “Genuinely” concerned. They would drop
the two witness rule. It’s entirely inapplicable to a crime
where the perp, goes to great lengths, to make sure
there’ll be no observers. And how cruel to demand from
a distressed child, that they produce such witnesses.
otherwise it’s only their word against another’s .
They have no right nor the appropriate training to subject
children to such a harrowing inquisition. I repeat. If they
we’re genuinely concerned. They would, without further
delay, issue instructions to elders. To immediately hand
over any complaints. To the Police.
Morris’s statement that they are concerned, that even no
“Emotional Harm” should come to a child. Are just empty
words, propaganda. They will fool many. But not those
who are aware, of the methods and motives of this corrupt,
Godless and materialistic org.
Reply
Richard E. Kelly says:
July 6, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Kudos to you, Lloyd. You were definitely in good-fighting form on this post, well armed with the facts on your side. Too bad that cognitive dissonance is alive and well in Watchtower Land, because an article like this should have spawned a mass exodus.
Reply
Grace says:
July 6, 2015 at 4:39 pm
Another great article but god it makes my blood boil.
“We are proud of our reputation in this regard.”
Proud of their reputation!! Incase they hadn’t noticed, their reputation is that they hide child molesters & throw victims under the bus to save their deluded reputation.
Also, when a dirty old man rapes a little girl. It just has to be the gays fault. (sarcasm).
These royal hyenas are just clutching at anything. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is an attempt to get their propaganda in before the Australian Royal Commission comes out & airs the dirty laundry that has been soaking in the mire for so long. On the 27th of July, the hearing will be aired to the public. I hope that those that have secretly suffered will come out & speak. My feelings are that they wouldn’t be pursuing it if there wasn’t enough evidence to see a problem that needs addressing.
Reply
David says:
July 6, 2015 at 4:56 pm
Tony just follow the usual cult protocol. They can condemn no JWs to death if they do not acknowledge
the GB as the only channel between God and Mankind (role according to the Bible belonging only to Christ) but feel persecuted to the slightest criticism. But I think this is a win for the “apostate” community. The GB will be forced to change their policies and report pedophiles to authorities. At least we should be happy that children will be more protected. I guess next we have to teach the GB and make people more aware that people should not be ostracised if the choose to leave their denominations just like they want to be free to preach their half truths.
It is also strange that Tony feel persecuted when JW.org shows clear signs of wealth. It displays a new suit on every appearance and the usual “godfather” style pinky ring.
An appearance radically different then Jesus Christ’s.
Reply
Eric says:
July 6, 2015 at 5:40 pm
Thank you so much Cedars for your articles. Having just woken up from JW mind control in October, I still suffer from ptsd and attacks from my cult personality. I find great comfort and encouragement in your articles and videos. The time and well thought out preparation cannot be undersold. What you are doing is a true service and I thank you for it.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
July 7, 2015 at 3:20 pm
Happy to hear you’ve exited!
Reply
Barb Moor says:
July 6, 2015 at 6:07 pm
Caleb, Sophia! It’s YOUR fault for getting abused; your conscience was too weak! Bad boy! Bad girl!
The new video featuring the animated pair is really sneaky. Yes, kids should run away from predators. BUT, no focus is given on the predators themselves (such as known abusers within the organization). The way it is portrayed on the video, the burden is put on children to prevent abuse, according to their “trained” conscience. It doesn’t illustrate the reality that the parents could be the abusers themselves. It doesn’t show that there are times when it is physically impossible to get away from a predator (Elder Handy in the car group).
And what if the abuser threatens to kill beloved Mommy or Daddy (or baby brother) if Sophia does tell on them? Well, Sophia then has to decide: save them or myself? Sophia loves them so she’ll likely keep quiet, because predators are PROS at manipulation and deceit. This will go on and Sophia will comply with the predator thinking she’s protecting her family. You can picture Sophia in group therapy 15 years later with an addiction to meth to cope with the years of abuse, made worse by listening to talks that will make her think she is guilty for the abuse. All those talks on fornication will make her wonder, was I committing fornication? Why DIDN’T Mommy protect me? Why did Brother Creep give a talk on telling the truth at all times then tell me to lie to my parents?
She will have seen him at assemblies or meetings: maybe even giving a talk about porneia? Poor Sophia: her conscience wasn’t strong enough. She didn’t outwit a cunning adult with years of manipulative skills! And then, why didn’t Jehovah protect her? Was she not worthy of protection, given all the theocratic examples of children who were spared suffering ‘because they listened’? Apparently not, because it happened to her. Sophia will end up depressed, lonely, fearful, and likely lacking in any sort of faith. If she even remains in the organization (she’ll have so little self-worth she may stay in it out of fear), she’ll become one of the “weak” ones looked down upon by the strong because she’s not perky and happy and glowing with the good news. She’ll go downhill, while the way this organization works, the abuser will be promoted.
Ironically, the watchers of this stupid video will likely be praising the organization for its helpfulness and loving concern, ignoring that Elder Handy and Brother Creep are right there in their hall, maybe sitting next to them at meeting. Other elders in the hall may know, but they won’t warn parents. Because the loving organization that has cared SO much for SO long has said not to divulge those little details. You’re on your own, Sophia and Caleb! Good luck with that!
Reply
John says:
July 8, 2015 at 12:49 am
Barb, that’s a fantastic comment.x
Reply
Barb Moor says:
July 6, 2015 at 6:28 pm
Boy, does Tony get heated up about homosexuals, doesn’t he? Latent much?
Seriously, he deliberately misleads the definition of a homosexual by implying that a homosexual is a pedophile. Big difference: the homosexuals I know have no interest in little boys or little girls.
It’s a cheap shot on Tony’s part (I feel I can be informal now that we are on a chatty basis via his constant tv appearances). His self-righteousness is disgusting. And really, his lies reinforce the same abusive tactic that predators use: listen to ME and no one else.
These people have no morals. Shame on the lying org, the congregations who hide sexual abusers, the elders who know what abuse has happened and have the benefit of protecting THEIR kids but not everyone else’s. Shame on the parents for trusting this org and letting some out-of-touch corporate shill tell them how to parent and tell them their kids are safe. And shame on Tony Morris for lying to children by acting like he cares.
Reply
Thinking of leaving says:
July 6, 2015 at 10:43 pm
Interestingly when I was awakening from my indoctrination and also becoming increasingly aware of the sex abuse problem, I was still an active publisher at the time. I thought that I would put it out there and gauge the reaction I would get from the R&F. Out of the dozen people I tried I couldn’t find one who said “I feel sorry for those victims and I hope they get the help and support they need.” The replies I got were mainly media hype and one even refused to admit the news report was real. The reply that really stands out in my mind is “don’t read overseas news papers because this is going to confuse me”. Yup child abuse can be put down to overseas news papers confusing me. About sums it all up really.
Reply
bobow says:
July 7, 2015 at 2:26 am
I have the same observation. every bro just denied the story, without even reading about it.
Reply
Syl says:
July 7, 2015 at 3:11 am
Great analysis and rebuttal Lloyd. What you do is useful. Thanks for the time and effort you invest in this.
Reply
chatpal says:
July 7, 2015 at 4:25 am
the thing about the JW’s I know family included, in the U.S, is that they are not aware of any child abuse nor other sorts of crimes as this, they never hear any media coverage on any of these abuse cases. these people work, sleep shop, go to meetings and service and watch kids shows or home improvement shows or netflix or very little tv at all. They would have no idea why he was bringing up that article, orthe subject.I can hear my own mother , if hearing his comments, say” well the society must be preparing for a rise in child abuse issues, they are always ahead of the game” as if there is none and there might be in the near future. she literally thinks they are able to see future trends. its sickening, she finds no fault with these men, yet says that they do not claim to be perfect and ‘we do not worship them’ such mental hypocrisy she displays against herself, for Id be willing to bet my right arm she knows deep down in her heart, something isnt right , after all she often says things that are her own opinion, and does things contrary to what the jw suggestions are, and even gets told about it, [like going up to a door when there is a sign that says beware of dog, and then giving ‘jehovah’ the credit for her not getting bit,lol] but she being 73 has been in this so long it would make not a bit of difference to change now.
Reply
Bart says:
July 7, 2015 at 9:12 am
I will never forget this guy. He’s the one that really changed my perception (lost respect) of the governing body a last year at the annual meeting and his infamous tight pants and spanks talk. But it wasn’t those things in particular that turned me off as much as his overall demeanor and his smug approach to those who aren’t worshiping the way he thinks they should, or who’s parenting efforts were not good enough to keep their children in the truth, etc. I was disgusted by it all, and continue to be. That day, when I saw him speak for the very first time, I thought, ‘How can this possibly be God’s chosen group of men to lead us all?’. I lost a lot of faith in the “faithful and discreet slave” that day, despite the other governing body members’ loving and warm demeanor. The fact that this loony is in the group speaks volumes, and while some JW’s laugh it off or downplay his antics by means of memes on Instagram or what have you, most people are so blind that they think he’s brave for calling things like they are, just like Peter was constantly an outspoken member of Jesus disciples. Since that time, I’ve read Crisis of Conscience and honestly it sent me into a bit of depression, learning things that would shake any Witness’s faith to the core. I literally cried for that man when I realized he died several years ago, and all that he had gone through. It left me feeling alone too, and I still feel like there is no easy way out or in.
Reply
Paul says:
July 8, 2015 at 2:14 am
Bart,
I felt the same way after reading Crisis of Conscience, but that quickly lead me to reading his second book and that explained a future course that made sense to me. I have not been to a meeting since, and I am determined to forge a new life free from the hypocrisy and falsity of the GB. If you think Morris is weird what the heck is Lett about?
If Jehovah is choosing these guys the the world is in deep doo doo. My guess is that they are actually the man of lawlessness, the evil slave.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
July 7, 2015 at 10:48 am
Bart,
Welcome to your freedom, sir! If you are still a person of faith, then take comfort in the teaching that Jesus is always with you.
If you are like me, an atheist, then it’s time to find your own path.
Either way, you are well rid of any association with an organisation with such an appalling record.
I wish you the best of luck, Bart.
Folks, Anthony has given us such an excellent response to the child abuse scandal in the WTBTS! He is proud of their record, and of his involvement and support of it. The latest Caleb and Sophia video is disgraceful. Telling a manipulative sociopathic paedophile to stop will work out fine!!!!!
This second attempt to deflect proper scrutiny of the WTBTS’ child abuse policies and cover ups will be a powerful recruitment sergeant for our cause.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
I hope that this idiot is called to defend his policies in court some time soon.
Reply
Freedom says:
July 7, 2015 at 7:27 pm
Dear Anthony Morris: Homosexuals do not sexually abuse children. Pedophiles sexually abuse children. There is a difference. Perhaps your research department should educate itself. Numerous organizations state the following: 1 out of 5 girls will be sexually abused as a child while 1 out of 20 boys will be sexually abused as a child. It would appear that a girl is at a higher risk – so who is abusing the girls? If we follow your logic that homosexuals abuse little boys, then heterosexuals abuse little girls. Therefore, shame on all heterosexual men. I look forward to your next Awake article condemning “the heterosexuals” for their deviant, disgusting behavior. I also look forward to another one of your broadcasts where you assure all JWs that the organization does everything it can to protect the congregation from “the heterosexuals”.
Reply
ES says:
July 7, 2015 at 8:23 pm
Very well written and accurate; thank you Cedars. You’re correct in that Tony is way off on describing WT position in the topic of child abuse. A close family member to me is currently fighting a legal battle over the issue of child sex abuse within the JW org, and my devout parents have acknowledged that the society has handled these child cases quite poorly. I’m curious to know what the thought while watching this episode of JWB.
Reply
ruthlee says:
July 8, 2015 at 1:32 am
this mans demeanor disturbs me i try to be objective and hope he has our best interests at heart but ive come to realise all this talk and exposure is just that before there is genuine decisive action these dishonourable men will shoot themselves in the foot meanwhile we look on pained and insulted i hope one day that i can roar with laughter at such feeble nonsense but at the moment things are a little too painful i do beleive GOD will have the final say and it will be heard by everyone there will be no excuses ha ha bring it on
Reply
Paul says:
July 8, 2015 at 2:06 am
It is just another example of avoiding the real issues and putting up straw men and knocking them down with old magazines that do not address the issues either. Here are old men who are totally out of touch with reality because they believe their own imaginary world.
Unfortunately virtually zero active JWs will pay any attention to facts from outside sources, so he can spout rubbish and avoid reality and all the sheep will bleat in total (ignorant) approval. Till an avalanche of bad press engulfs them they will refuse to admit the mountain of evidence.
Reply
David says:
July 8, 2015 at 3:20 am
He gives a distorted impression of the matter. The broadcast starts with persecution to prepare the minds of the listeners. Then it just gives a one sided account of the issue. They criticise other religions but for what I can see they have no decency. When something happen to others they are quick to share articles. When jw.org is criticised then the media are of the devil.
Reply
anonymous says:
July 8, 2015 at 5:00 am
Tony Morris skipped over the article in the June 22,1982 titled “Rape at Home” which was about incest. This is what one of the paragraphs said, quoting from an outside source and even giving us the page of that outside source:
“On page 129 of the book “The Death of Innocence”, we read: “Among prostitutes, the frequency of sexual molestation in childhood is 92 percent; 67 percent of them experience some form of incestuous assault…At least 75 percent of he runaways, on the national average, are escaping incestuous abuse. The same figures apply to cases of adolescent drug addiction: About 70 percent are victims of incest.””
What is so ironic is that the June 22, 1982 Awake has in the very next article about child abuse an article “To End Child Abuse” and this is what it had to say was the remedy for this abuse:
“They know that bad family conditions cause children to run away from home, and that a high percentage of runaways end up on the streets and in prostitution and pornography and suffer appalling abuse. Some are escaping incest at home, homes broken by divorce, chronic conflicts with parents, lack of loving attention, and some are swayed by their peers. Whatever specific causes, the remedy is the healing of family breakdown. So say the experts. So does the Bible. It calls for close communication between parent and child.”
So, the Society has the first article about incest being the cause of most runaways who turn to prostitution and drugs and are abused by child pornography and the very next article saying that the remedy is better family communication between child and parent and they ignore the fact that the preceding article said that most children are abused by incest first before running away and getting abused. Do these people even read what they write?????
Also, I think the reason Tony Morris skipped the incest article is because he was hoping that most people would not have that old Awake magazine where they could double check what he was saying in that video about the incest article in that June Awake. There is absolutely no advice to help parents or young ones to be protected by pedophiles in those article and there is no advice to report abusers or rapists to the police. It is a useless rag that belongs in the garbage can and not “groundbreaking”.
Another reason Morris skipped the incest article is because what if Sophia’s father was her abuser???? According to the incest article, most children run away from incest and get abused because of incest!!!
Reply
Meredith J says:
July 8, 2015 at 5:23 am
This Governing Body member has obviously been informed about the upcoming Royal Commission Into Child Abuse in Australia. The Catholic Church has already been through the ringer for the past year about it as all their dirty washing has been hanging on the line for all to see and now the Witnesses have formally been told that they are next on the chopping block as from July 27th, 2015. I’ll bet he is worried that it will look like they are not trying enough to counteract the problem. It will be so interesting to see the outcome of the commission. They will probably expect to look exonerated but I think they will be shocked at the level of scrutiny.
Reply
Brad says:
July 8, 2015 at 9:06 am
I think we are all forgetting something. Think back for a moment to the days when you were a faithful witness who fully backed the organization and believed in these key points (I know, this is difficult to do):
1. Jehovah is the universal sovereign
2. Jehovah has allowed suffering to continue to prove that he is a loving god and his way is the best way.
3. There have always been some of Satan’s seed trying to incorporate themselves into Jehovah’s earthly organization and even if they last for a little while, eventually they will be found out and Jehovah will be the judge of them in the end.
4. The Governing Body cannot ignore bible principles, such as the 2 witness rule.
If you were on the other side of this argument, still a faithful witness, and you presented these 4 points and someone still argued with you, you just throw up your hands and that’s it, there is nothing more you can say or do but leave it in Jehovah’s hands and say how sad it is that some people like touching children.
This information continues to reinforce in us that we made the right decision and we are happy to be no part of this organization, but time and time again, when we have them absolutely dead to rights with a straight flush nuts hand in a game of hold ’em, a witness will still have that cognitive dissonance rear it’s ugly head and make them believe this is an attack by Satan and his minions.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
July 8, 2015 at 10:03 am
Lloyd,
Can we find a way to ask Morris just who the “appropriate authorities” are? I believe he is deliberately trying to infer that these “appropriate authorities” are the police, or perhaps child protection services. However, he believes that the “appropriate authorities” are the local body of elders and the Bethel Branch overseeing that country.
Am I wrong in this interpretation? What do you think?
Thank you for an excellent article. Your long term support of victims and precise articles on this dreadful problem are a testament to your good character.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
M. says:
July 8, 2015 at 10:03 am
10 Anti-Gay Myths Debunkedhttp://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/10-myths
Facts About Homosexuality
and Child Molestationhttp://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
Reply
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2 Jul
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
My review of the re-worked 1988 classic guide "Combating Cult Mind Control" by @cultexpert http://wp.me/p1TWXJ-20h
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2 Jul
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
My questions is, why are religious communities of any creed automatically classed as charities? https://twitter.com/ChtyCommission/status/616490366322278404 …
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1 Jul
Alex Gibney ✔ @alexgibneyfilm
Tom Cruise? Can it be? #GoingClear pic.twitter.com/uJlum7PWTj
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30 Jun
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
I promise you future generations will be astounded that religions were granted tax exemptions in 2015 http://ti.me/1KnpGQ1 via @TIMEIdeas
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