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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
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Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
Newer Comments →
Brie says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:37 pm
I am Brie, Thank you so much for writing this! I love this website and have used it many times! I am honored to be part of it!
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sam says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:47 pm
This video was awsome, im so glad it has gone viral. Great job Brie!
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Terri O'Sullivan says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Well done Brie. Your message will be an inspiration to so many other exJWs out there. When I watched your video and then read all the lovely comments written at the end of the Independent newspaper and all the other sites it was on it made me realise how much love there is in the world for people who have gone through what we went through. Thank you for being so brave for speaking up! x
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Cedars says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:04 pm
You’re a hero Brie!
I’m glad you’ve seen this article. It’s important you understand the magnitude of what you’ve accomplished, and how much we all appreciate your bravery. I’m proud that this website has been helpful for you! :)
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Mama Joy says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:13 pm
Bravo! I’m so proud of you for speaking out and I know God is proud of you too! They are wolves in sheeps clothing and you no longer have the wool pulled over your eyes! Celebrate today and every day you are free!
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Darlene Alexander says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:36 pm
I admire your bravery, Brie! I know how hard it must of been to get up there and speak about such personal subjects, but what a wonderful job you did! The more we can expose JWs as the dangerous cult they are, the more people we can keep from being mislead by them – and hope we can help to pull people out as well. We are so proud of you!
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JJ says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:43 pm
Brie, you’re awesome!
I only wish that I had figured out this cult when I was your age!
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David says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:05 am
Brie thank you soo much for having the courage and taking the time to put together such an honest, open speech. This video has touch soo many people already and will be a testament to the damage the Jehovah’s Witnesses have and continue to do. I wish you the best in life!
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Sam says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:58 am
Brie,
Your presentation was beautiful and courageous.
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Excelsior! says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Congratulations, Brie!
Your honest and compassionate speech has touched many hearts, including mine.
I hope your Graduation Day is wonderful and I wish you all the luck in the world in your studies at University!
Welcome to your freedom to choose. It’s a wild ride but a satisfying one.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Rainbow says:
May 28, 2015 at 1:00 am
You go girl!
Want to really hit the media? Send your video to the Ellen Degeneres Show. She often features students.
Thank you for you courage Brie! You are loved.
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M. says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:38 pm
Well done brave lady!
One person can make difference!
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anonymous says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:45 pm
Brie’s video was posted just 4 days ago and it’s now well over 400,000 views. I don’t think the Society can sweep this one under the rug and everything she said in that video can be backed up in Watchtower publications. There is no way the Society can say that she’s an apostate “liar”. It is too bad she only had 15 minutes because she didn’t touch on the 2 witness rule for child abuse and she didn’t touch on blood but what she packed into that 15 minutes knocked the ball out of the park!!!
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JJ says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Yup, hundreds of thousands of views for Brie’s video. This is the Watchtower Society’s worst nightmare-come-true! How can the WT say that a young girl is an ‘apostate’?!? How can they claim that this young girl doesn’t know what she is talking about when these are her own experiences?!?
Oh boy, I bet there will be heated, round table discussions on damage control at Watchtower headquarters.
It will be interesting to see what happens now.
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William Niles says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Well done Brie, you have stood bravely. The average JW will look at your video that has been posted on the medial and label you as a liar/slanderer, etc.. Anytime, ANYTHING bad is said about JWs then to them it’s all nothing but lies..but if that same media ramps/raves about JWs then they have no problem plastering it all over jw.org. What they deem as truth is only when it suits THEIR purpose. Your comments hit the nail on the head and you speak absolute truth and JWs are simply living in denial. In their own Elder’s manual, it says clearly that if Elders discover that a husband committed adultery and learn that he lied about the extent of his adultery, they have been instructed NOT to tell his wife about it and will simply say, “we encourage you to talk with your husband”. So in a case where the woman decides to forgive him and sleeps with him, but then afterwards learns that he lied about the extent of his adultery; from that point on she can’t divorce him without being disfellowshipped because when she resumed relations with him she technically forgave him…the problem is that the Elders KNOWINGLY withheld vital information from her that would have helped her to make a decision in the first place! In the case that the woman commits adultery, he CAN sit in on her committee, but they WON’T allow her to sit in on his judicial committee. There are well-documented cases where the Elders knew that a man had molested a child…but did NOT tell his wife that her own husband molested a child.
If you are a JW–you will label this brave young woman as someone who is attacking you, slandering you, etc.. There is simply TOO MUCH irrefutable proof that what Bree says is true…and you’re own Bible clearly says that it only takes 2-3 witness to establish the matter as truth. There are literally THOUSANDS of witnesses to establish these matters as truth….WAKE UP PEOPLE.
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William Niles says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:03 pm
Sorry, bad typing. I meant to say that anytime the very same media who they say slanders them/lies about them publishes anything good about them, then all of the sudden they have no problem posting it all over jw.org, sharing the experience in assemblies, etc.. It’s only what THEY establish as truth and only what they want people to hear.
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Designer Stubble says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:08 pm
Thanks Brie – You are our Hero. Loved your video and your letter at the friendly atheist. Your parents can be very proud of you. Happy to read you will be off to University.
John – Good to write up on this. Positive blog.
It will take time, but the WTBTS cannot withstand the power that Internet and Social Media gives to our voices.
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Innocent Son says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:35 pm
Brie, I applaud your bravery, I hope that this inspires many other to come forward and tell the truth about the Org. Because of the Internet and websites like this many others will be able to see behind the shadows and break free….Deep respect and much love to you and your family.
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Grace says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:48 pm
@Brie,
Bravo, you have pressed the start button, the missing link that will get to the masses. Why? Because many other religions will have to stand up & look at the way that they are treating their followers as well. I have a young friend who is your age going through something similar (but not as cruel) with her religion which is orthodox.
You give me hope that when I am no longer here, your generation will be able to grow up from the stifleness of archaic, patriarchal religions.
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Ted says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:05 pm
I listened to Brie’s video a number of times, and was very
proud of her. At certain points she had to fight back tears
but continued on to give a clear, factual and honest
exposition of a hierarchical and sometimes cruel “Religion”?
Women at the very bottom and the GB at the top, who
countenance no dissent.
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Pickled brain says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:36 pm
@Brie.THIS IS A BRILLIANT SPEECH Highlighting the REAL TRUTH what goes on in this Religion with WOMEN Treated like Second Class Citizens & Yes the LOVE is CONDITIONAL!!!
This video by Brie is a Brilliant Answer to Andrew who commented on the post before this one that his 4 children were well adjusted kids. Well if anyone would like to read my response to his comments,please feel free to look at my reply & I am open to be corrected.
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Pickled brain says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:43 pm
@ William Niles . REALLY ENJOYED Your COMMENT about how the Elders Manuel’Shepherd the Flock’ TREAT WOMEN as THIRD RATE CITIZENS ‘ !! IT IS DISGUSTING & OUTRAGEOUS The way WOMEN are treated Except when the GB want them to be Pioneers so the women can peddle the Literature!!
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William Niles says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:20 am
@ Pickled brain: It’s those kinds of things that WT doesn’t want young women, like Brie, to know about. I openly showed my own wife those points in the Elders Manual…she simply couldn’t not believe what she was reading. I couldn’t either and I had to read it 2-3 times to let it sink in. Or, how about letting an appointed Elder/M.S. serve in the congregation…even if after he confesses to have committed a disfellowshipping offense years before and not even lift a single finger against him? But yet, with innocent women like Brie, the won’t hesitate to disfellowship, label them Apostate., etc? If you read the Elder’s manual regarding those points I mention, you’ll see that there’s not ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE quoted to justify their reasoning on those particular points…the only thing I can think of that justifies it is immoral men in Brooklyn who are THEMSELVES guilty of the very things that they wrote about and refused to confess them to anyone. And they will label anyone, like Brie, as a liar/slanderer who exposes the hypocrisy. There’s a reason why they tell JWs not to listen to folks like Brie…for fear of discovering the REAL truth.
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Bryan linkoski says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:06 pm
How fitting that “the redemption song” by Bob Marley came on just as I was reading this. It’s a blessing when one is released from mental slavery from such a stifling existence. It may be that the order or there disorder is rapidly changing. Knowledge is power and it takes great courage to do whT this young lady did.
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Michael says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:32 pm
You have my deepest respect Brie.Thank you for you courage.Your video brought tears to me and my wife.We have experience the loss of our families and 2 of our children.I shared the video on my Facebook page.We keep hoping things will change.
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anonymous says:
May 26, 2015 at 5:21 pm
If anybody who is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses does not believe that the Watchtower teaches that it is considered fornication if a girl or woman doesn’t defend herself to the death if they were raped and survived and then if they do survive being raped, they would be considered as having committed fornication unless they can prove to a committee of 3 men that they screamed and fought against the rape and didn’t invite the rape by her dress and being alone in dangerous areas, this is directly from the Watchtower magazine, 1968 June 1st article under the title of “The Christian’s View of Self-Defense”. This religion is not only a dangerous religion to belong to because of the blood issue and having to die rather than allow being to be raped, but it is very dangerous to married women because women can not leave an abusive husband and remarry (as Brie brought out in her wonderful speech) and if they do remarry, they will be disfellowshipped for adultery, making it almost impossible to get away from an abusive husband.
Women in the Witness religion are 2nd class citizens in every way possible as Brie brought out so amazingly in her speech.
This is from the 1968 Watchtower on pages 347-348
under the subheading: Attempted rape.
“If you are a Christian woman, what should you do if, in spite of all precautions, you are set upon by a rapist? If you cannot deter him by reasoning, or by calling on the name of Jehovah, then what? As a Christian you are under obligation to resist. This resistance includes screaming and creating as much disturbance as possible to try and frighten off the attacker and attract help. If the attack continues and you cannot break free to flee, then you would be justified even to inflict damage on your assailant if necessary. Resistance is imperative, because the rapist is after, not just money, but your virtue. An issue of integrity to Jehovah’s laws is involved here. So by no means would it be proper quietly to submit to rape, as that would be consenting to fornication. – 1 Thess. 4:3
The principle is like that set out at Deuteronomy chapter 22. There it states: “In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, you must also bring both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die.” Why would the girl have died under that Law covenant? The scripture continues: “The girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city.” If she did not make the effort to scream, she was viewed as consenting to fornication. But if the woman screamed and resisted and nonetheless was overpowered, then she was not guilty of complicity: “The girl screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.” Deut. 22:23-27.
Would it be different if the man had a weapon and threatened to kill you if you did not submit? No, the Scriptures plainly state that Christians are under obligation to “flee from fornication.” (1 Cor. 6:18) It is true that you face the possibility of death in this case. But you have no guarantee that if you meekly submit, your assailant will not kill you anyhow to avoid identification.”
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Mike dennis says:
May 26, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Great speech. Well written and well thought out. It started out very factual, good background. It showed sincerity and genuine concern. My best wish is that my grown sons wake up and someday see the org as it really is. This effort by Brie was from the heart. If it wakes just one person up, it’s worth all her distress in making this.
I know that Brie may not be fully prepared to live her new life apart from WT and old ‘ friends ‘, but I sure wish her the best. Brave girl will become a great woman. Thank you, aloha
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Ken says:
May 26, 2015 at 8:02 pm
“The final straw came during in 9th grade when one of my friends and I went to the beach. I had been texting a boy from another JW congregation and sent him a picture of us on the beach… which meant we were in bikinis. Unfortunately, his mother went through his phone and came across our “horrible” photo. It led to Church elders coming over to my house to counsel me.
They told me I was guilty of making him masturbate. They even made me admit I got him to do it. That was never my intention, obviously, but having that conversation with Church leaders may be the most embarrassing moment of my life. I don’t think my face has ever turned so red. They made me feel dirty for enjoying my time at the beach and chatting with a friend — my other picked up on that, too, and couldn’t believe I was in trouble with the congregation for the crime of wearing a bathing suit.
After that, I was done. I no longer wanted to identify as a Jehovah’s Witness.”
I sorry to be critical but Brie were embarrassed when you said that quoted above to your classmates? I think although the Elders were stupid to counsel you over the bikini photo which in this day and age is called sexting , it may have looked innocent , but the dummy elders it was serious enough for them jump in . The boy’s mother in the logical sense should have talked to your mother about it . Never involve the elders in anything .
I was DF because I and my parents faded out of the sect after my poor father had a blood transfusion . I was lucky that I never was baptized as a teen , my parents did . It amazes me that petty things are judged as “sins” while molestation is swept under the rug in this sect these days . However I did share many things with you as I grew up ,with such as isolation that I still fight today.
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Shanti says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:03 pm
Sending a picture of friends in bathing suits at the beach is not “sexting”.
Reply
Brent says:
May 26, 2015 at 11:22 pm
One thing is for sure, the theocratic ministry school did a great job teaching this brave young woman how to speak in public. Great to see she is putting it to good use as well. Good on you girl.
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life's about choices says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:41 am
brought a tear to my eye..Thank you brie…We have 2 older kids than you…fortunately they laugh now and we’re very close with some great friends….you will be ok…..go enjoy life from this day on..xx
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Bad Penny says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:52 am
Dear Brie –
YOU ARE AMAZING! You have been so brave!
We all love you so much for what you have done.
I’m so glad that you are in touch with JW Survey so that you can find out all TTATT, but mostly that we are all cheering you on.
Go forward now with your young life, look to the future, try not to look behind because the past is painful, as we have all discovered.
I have often thought, how can one individual make a difference to how people view this religion?
Girl, you just did it!
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Bad Penny says:
May 27, 2015 at 2:33 am
BRIE –
Just read your ‘Friendly atheists’ article.
You will probably be summoned to a judicial hearing. You don’t have to suffer the indignity! Just tell them you no longer want to be under the authority of men in suits. If you disassociate yourself it will possibly take a week before they announce it, which may give you the time to graduate before the rest of your family shun you.
When I and my husband became witnesses, we never realised that higher education was a no no! We found out when our son went to university. He was advised by a C.O. to give up his course and reach out for ‘spiritual’ goals. Thankfully he resisted the advice, and with our full backing, went on to gain a first at Uni. He now has a great job and a nice car, all he wants now is a great lady to share his life – he never could find one in the congregation. Pity he didn’t meet you!
All of us have now left the stranglehold of JW dom.
So, be strong, do well in your career, I’m sure that you will succeed.
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Andrea says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:12 am
Brie is a wonderful inspiration of courage and maturity in the way she approached her subject. I can say that I wasn’t that mature even at college-going age, nor as brave to openly talk about my upbringing or religion even with good friends outside the org. I hope she’ll open up the eyes of many who may be sticking their head in the sand and hoping that all the truthful and bad publicity about the JWs will go away.
I’d like to however refute @Brent’s well-meant comment that she has somehow become a good public speaker thanks to the “Theocratic Ministry School”. It *may* have helped, however, it’s more likely that it was thanks to a good education and how own talent and/or hard work. Attributing this to a witness education only takes away from Brie’s well-earned praise.
If there is any request to her about “judicial” hearings or committees, I would not be recommending that she disassociate herself or give them any answers, unless she wishes to do so herself. Brie has obviously managed to think for herself and doesn’t need a group of religious bullies (some elders) to tell her what to do or hopefully feel any need to play up to them, do their bidding or reply to them in any way. As has been pointed out on Cedar’s and jwfacts websites, doing so because they tell you too only gives them more power over you. There’s no need to play along.
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alanv says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:39 am
I will be watching closely the number of views this video has. Today (wednesday 27th May) it is up to 529000. Truly amazing and great that a young person is able to help so many others see the bad side to this cult
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Ted says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:18 am
Brie was chastised by elders for sending beach photo
of herself and friend in bikini’s to a JW, boy acquaintance.
Had Brie been a well known celebrity, no action would have
been taken. The tennis sisters, who publicly declare they are
JWs, both have posed nude for a well known magazine.
Has anyone heard of them being reprimanded ?
Not being baptised is not a get out, as such ones can be
“disassociated” for “Unchristian” conduct.
So why is the org, willing to drop its own immutable laws
where celebrities are concerned ? They don’t want their
cruel practices of disfellowshipping and shunning exposed.
Brie wonders whether she, will be disfellowshipped, in view
of the publicity her exposition has caused?
Somehow I think not !
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alan says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:32 am
How true is everything that Brie says. I came into the “Truth” in 1969 aged 18 and I introduced my future wife into it and we were married in 1972. We have 4 children. My oldest girl [born 1972] was raped just after she turned 16. Someone we knew [not a JW] asked if she could babysit his children while he took his wife to the hospital. She didn’t want to do it but I [stupidly] persuaded her and as a result she was raped that evening by him. We went to the police and also the Elders. Their only concern was had she resisted and screamed. She said that it was impossible to scream or resist as he was stronger than she was and also because he had a knife and also his hands were around her throat. I was informed that seeing that she was an unbaptized publisher, I had to bear the guilt and that a committee would decide if I was guilty of aiding and abetting the rape as I had allowed her to babysit. They also informed me that I could possibly be disfellowshipped as by going to the police, I had brought the name of Jehovah and his organisation into disrepute.
My immediate reaction was to protest and remind them that the rape had already been reported in the newspapers and that I might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb and that I would inform the reporter that I was being thrown out of the “religion” and explain why. Needless to say that the Elders climbed down but I was removed from all responsibility in the KH and a talk was given to the congregation stressing that worldly authorities have no part to play in Jehovah’s organisation. Did this put me off? No it did not I am sad to say.
We moved congregations but it was no better. My children were considered a danger to the others, so much so that my second child [a daughter] became so rebellious over the way we were being treated that she became hostile to the organisation. She was 13 yrs old. The Elders advised me to “get rid” of her as she was a danger to my other children so I telephoned the local authorities and had her placed into a children’s home. I did all of this as I truly believed that it was what Jehovah wanted. Now I realise what a clutz I was.
In 1991 my wife and I sat down with the other 3 children and explained that we were leaving the organisation. We already knew that the 3rd child had no interest in the “Truth” but we were concerned about my son who was only 10 at the time. We explained that we would allow him to go to the KH and go on field service if he so wished to do as we would find someone to take him. He thought for a moment and his reply was “If I leave with you, does that mean that I can have Birthday and Christmas presents?” I said, if that’s what you want. He then replied “good as I know what I want for my first birthday present.” The rest is history apart from that my daughter who was raped had no counselling as the Elders would not allow it and now lives in the USA [I am in the UK] and refuses to have any contact with me. She tells everyone that I am dead and in her eyes I am. I have to accept that and do so but I know that the trauma she went through is what makes he r think that.
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Excelsior! says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:54 pm
Sir,
Whatever happened to the poor child you put into care? Is she ok?
You have my sympathy, sir. As do your family.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Charles Huff says:
May 27, 2015 at 6:21 am
I’m proud of Brie for making a stand, Brie, if you’re reading this, way to go my friend.
What Brie has done is show others that making a stand can change things and shown us that we can stand on our own.
After receiving over 400k hits on her video, we now know that interest is in the subject and we can expose the JWs like no time ever before. If enough people make a stand, then it may reverse disfellowship the JWs and can possibly lead to their downfall.
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David says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:33 am
Well done Brie! You have been very brave and effective in exposing the shameful bully character of jw.org
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Pickled brain says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:32 am
MOST JWs especially Young ones are TRAPPED in the Organisation because of the Encouragement to get BAPTISED at 11,12,13 or younger & then FRIGHTENED of LOSING FAMILY & FRIENDS if they ASK GENUINE Questions which a PRE- TEEN getting Baptised would never have thought of!!
SO WELL DONE BRIE for INSPIRING many Young JWs to Have the COURAGE to Just HONESTLY QUESTION Their BELIEFS!!! & Be REALLY AWARE of JW TRUE BEGINNINGs & HISTORY!
If WE CAN STARVE the ORGANISATION of YOUNG BLOOD?? ( I Don’t Know if that’s the Appropriate Word) Then the Organisation will SLOWLY DIE with only the OLD & DIEHARDS Remaining!!
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:40 am
Does anyone have a link download the latest Elder Book? Shepherd the Flock, I think…KS 12 or 16 is it?
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:30 am
Nevermind, found it on JW leaks.
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StrongHaiku says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:15 am
Brie, you are truly remarkable.
When I was a JW at your age (over 30 years ago), I did not have the self-awareness, intellectual integrity, and courage to do what you did. For that, I am truly ashamed. I hope others take up your example. Nicely done.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:32 am
Strong–I don’t think you should feel shame. Indoctrination isn’t something we can always avoid, especially for those born into it. And, even when doubts are there in a young person, the consequences you were trained to avoid are terrifying for youths and often prevent rebellion.
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Cedars says:
May 27, 2015 at 11:04 am
I’ve updated the numbers cited in the article to reflect the fact that Brie’s video is now comfortably past the half-million threshold.
Amazing!
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Elka Tire says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:04 pm
Cedar, if I send you the Spanish translation for the video, could you add it?
Thanks.
El Kato
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Cedars says:
May 27, 2015 at 2:16 pm
Yes :)
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M. says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:08 pm
All together we are strong. This should continue!
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Elka Tire says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:04 pm
I meant the spanish subtitles!
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brandnew says:
May 27, 2015 at 3:23 pm
New word : BRIE BRAVE.
I hope to be more ” BRIE BRAVE” in the following years to come.
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JWIntellect says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:29 pm
Brie > Governing Body
BRIE 2016!
Thank you very much, Brie, for having the courage to stand up and speak the truth about what goes on in this highly secretive religion.
Reply
minion says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:00 pm
Brie, well done faithful mate!
Talk about doubling your talents and minas, well done faithful mate!
This must be Jehovah’s blessing and hand moving the view counter.
Brie, I truly believe most of us have contributed to the effect of moving the view counter by creative means. That being said, you just don’t know how moved and touched I have been. I may have a larger Business network than most, and they got a copy of your video, and I have also ask to “pass it forward”. . . . Together we can move mountains.
You never know who may be dropping by or calling you. You never know.
I predict within 8 hours from now you will peak at 600,000.
Currently your at 560,655
Your average per 24 hour movement is 100,000 views.
This might be the beginning – for the right cause.
Keep strong, stay focus, seek peace, keep hope alive and courage is the conquest of fear!
and Brie, Congrats Senior 2015 !!
.
Reply
Worthy says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:56 pm
Brie, I’m so glad you made that decision to speak up against the treatment of women and children in the Org.
You are making a huge difference and educating so many as to the realities of what really goes on behind those plastered smiles they see at their front doors holding the watchtower and awake.
I hope this is just the beginning to what we will hear from you. You have a bright future ahead of you and I truly hope for your sake when you walk the stage you have all your loved ones cheering you on. If not, just remember you have all of us cheering you on in spirit!! Congratulations, and welcome to your ” new normal “
Reply
Everyday Explorer says:
May 28, 2015 at 6:22 am
Well done to Brie, a remarkable and inspirational activist! Our voices are growing and reaching more and more people, fellow consciousness-raisers. How liberating to see TTATT (the truth about the ‘Truth’) being exposed time and time again. Let’s all carry on keeping up the pressure in our individual ways. Day by day, we’re getting there!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:23 am
@Brie . ABSOLUTELY STUNNING. You YOUNG LADY Have Eloquently & ACCURATELY have Stated the REAL TRUTH what it is like for POOR WOMEN in this CRUEL ORGANISATION!!
I watched it for a Second Time your Speech!!
ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!
YOU WILL WAKE UP MANY,MANY YOUNGSTERS & WOMEN of All Ages to Finally make a Stand & NOT PUT UP with THIS SUBJUGATION of Women RULED & DICTATED to by 7 ARROGANT MEN in NEW YORK!!’
RISE UP SISTERS & BE BOLD & Follow the EXAMPLE of BRIE!!!
Reply
Kat says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:04 am
Thank you Brie, you really held your own on such an emotional issue, you presented your speech with control, you did not sound hateful or bitter something that could turn many of, but rather showed class and intelligence, you spoke also from your heart and showed a loving caring concern for JW. Thank you so much, I hope all goes well for you with your family before your day. x
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:27 am
@Brie . I Forgot to Add that WITHOUT WOMEN the JW Organisation WOULD CRUMBLE OVERNIGHT!!
Because the VAST Number of PIONEERS are SISTERS who conduct Bible Studies & Also Have a Great Influence on their Children as they grow up to baptism!!
Reply
David says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:22 am
This is soo very true. My biggest influences in the borg were women who were long time pioneers. They would have been wonderful Elders, CO’s etc. Perhaps there would have been better emphasis placed on caring for young people had they allowed women to serve in equal capacity as men do. Which by the way is how the scripture describes how Holy Spirit was poured out in the first century. Somehow God’s Spirit was mistakenly given in equal measure to women. Silly Holy Spirit, don’t you know that you are going against the Governing Body! /endrant.
Reply
Kat says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:42 am
I agree Pickled, the vast amount of work in the ministry is done by women, the brothers say its because men have to work and provide for families or have many more responsibilities in the congregation, but there are many more women JW than males, and for many single women they have to provide for themselves, and in some cases women without husbands with children have to provide for them as well as being the spiritual head, they have to do both the male and female work in the family.
There are more women in the org than men always been that way unless JW are having more male children than female then that takes decades to catch up.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 8:07 am
Brie gave 3 women’s experiences that she knows of how women are subjugated in the Watchtower and abused. In the 1972 Watchtower January 1st article page 31 on questions from the readers, the question was: “Do homosexual acts on the part of a married person constitute a Scriptural ground for divorce, freeing the innocent mate to remarry?”
The final answer to that question was no and this is the Watchtower’s answer why it is that the innocent mate is not fee to remarry: “While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken. It is broken only by acts that make an individual “one flesh” with a person of the opposite sex other than his or her legal marriage mate.” (What it was saying here is that since a child couldn’t be produced this way, then it wasn’t fornication and grounds for a scriptural divorce.)
This same policy that was discussed there of the Watchtower organization goes back to at least the 1950’s so it had been over at least 20 years that if a woman either caught her husband having sex with another man or animal, that she was not free to remarry scripturally as the man had not broken the marriage bond.
There were women who this had happened to up until the year of 1972 at least and so while they could leave their husbands, they were not free to remarry or else they would have been disfellowshipped and shunned.
This was cruel treatment for finding out that their husbands had had sex with animals or another man. If the husband had had sex with another woman, then the wife was free to remarry without getting disfellowshipped.
Just as Brie brought out in her speech, when a person finds themselves in a situation like that or any other situation like that, they will get absolutely no help from the Organization or the congregation and are left to pick up the pieces by themselves. Does this sound reasonable in any way? Many women weren’t aware that the Society could do this to a woman until they saw that question from the readers in that 1972 Watchtower.
Ray Franz was on the Governing Body at the time and even though he went along with that first ruling in the January Watchtower, it didn’t seem right to him and he started researching the topic and by the end of the year, his uncle, who was the president of the Society at the time, agreed with him that changed it’s view and decided that yes, if a person found their mate having sex with another of the same sex or an animal, that it would be pornea and grounds for a scriptural divorce as brought out in the December 15, 1972 Watchtower page 767. The Governing Body disfellowshipped Ray Franz but if it hadn’t been for him being on the Governing Body at the time, who knows? They might still teach such a backward and stupid doctrine.
Ask yourself this question. How could God be directing the Watchtower organization if during all those years, the Watchtower was condemning the innocent mate to shunning if they had divorced their husband and remarried? Was the Society teaching lies during all that time? Why would God be telling the Society lies and forcing it’s followers to follow those lies and if not be disfellowshipped and shunned?
Ask yourself this question. How would you know when it’s a lie or when it’s the truth then? At what point or year, can you decide which is the truth or a lie since during all those years, the Society either wasn’t listening to Jehovah or Jehovah wasn’t talking through them?
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 8:32 am
@Anonymous. VERY ,VERY WELL PUT your Argumentation back in 1972 was Farcical on why Women couldn’t scripturally divorce if they found their husband having SEX with Another MAN or TABITHA the CAT or … ROVER the DOG !! I mean if the GB are SPIRIT DIRECTED then My NAME is Babylon the Great ??? MUST BE FUN RIDING the ‘WILD BEAST’!!!
Reply
Exhausted says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:09 am
At the time that the Society was condoning those things
Would it not hold true that if a woman had her tubes
Tied or a hysterectomy she would have been absolved
Of a fornication committee had she erred sexually???
After all, she could not reproduce could she? The answer
Is obvious since women were subjugated to the lowest
Form of creature in the eyes of those men.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:29 am
@Exhausted, in the 1975 Watchtower pages 158-160 a woman couldn’t get a hysterectomy unless she had had numerous c-sections and so could die if she got pregnant again and men couldn’t be sterilized either unless their wife’s health was in serious danger of getting pregnant again. If either of them got sterilized for any other reason, the man would lose his privileges in the congregation.
By, 1985, the Society said it was up to the couple to use sterilization as a means of birth control (because from 1975-1985 some men’s sterilizations could be reversed) but they couldn’t talk about it to anybody else in the congregation so that others in the congregation wouldn’t “lose respect” for them (May 1, 1985 Watchtower page 31)
Here is one more case where the Society feels they have a right to stick their noses into women’s personal business. The Society has always told women they are allowed to take birth control pills but if they wanted a hysterectomy, the woman had to answer to the Society for it and if they had a hysterectomy, the woman had to convince the elders that if she got pregnant again that it would kill her.
Reply
JJ says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:07 pm
I always wondered, “Why would the GB, the elders or any other Jehovah’s Witness care if you used birth control, if you got divorced or what kind of sex you had and with whom?!?”
I mean really, why go through all the trouble to think about it, investigate and then chastise someone??? Who could be bothered???
Is it the sense of power that makes these small men worry so much about what you do when you are naked? Do they really feel that God cares about this or that?
Even though I really wanted to ‘reach out’ and help, and I enjoyed giving talks, I never wanted to hear about someone’s private lives especially if there were matters that were sensitive or embarrassing. (I would have told anyone who was having weird sex to say some Hail Mary’s and Our Fathers)
Reply
airborne says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:37 am
What a powerful video. Amazing the courage she has at such a young age.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:47 am
@Kat. YOU Are SO RIGHT! Women are Hit with a Double Whammy!! They are in many instances are the MAIN BREADWINNERS & DO the MAJORITY of the Preaching Work as there are SO MANY Broken Homes in the Truth nowadays .Its CRAZY how Many Stepfamilies there are & two married couples in our congregation in their 60s have separated & living in separate accommodation but still in the same congregation & both still answering in the Watchtower & in the field ministry!!
Reply
danman says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:51 am
What struck me was the respect that Brie’s fellow students paid her while delivering her speech. There was not any snickering, or rudeness displayed.
Obviously Brie had the respect of her peers prior to delivering this awesome expose! You are truly an ‘honor’ student. Thanks for the effort and personal sacrifice in putting yourself on the line. Courage is the proper word.
Reply
Rosie says:
May 28, 2015 at 12:20 pm
Brie, you are to be applauded. You delivered a very heartfelt speech. It must have taken great strength to speak about something so personal.
It was years after I left the Org, before I could even mention the words “Jehovah’s Witness” without feeling complete shame and humiliation, such was the stigma I felt at having been a JW.
I really empathise with you over your experience with the Elders after the beach photo. They are so quick to turn even the most innocent thing into something dirty and sex related. (I think it only reflects what is in their own hearts and minds).
On one occasion as a 16yr old at a convention I was seen talking to a young single brother from a different congregation. It was all very innocent, if I recall correctly, I think we were actually discussing our favourite Bryan Adams song!! (No doubt discussing worldly music was a sin in itself; they weren’t so liberal in my day). But I was swooped upon; dragged away to my embarrassment and treated as though I had been up to all sorts of shenanigans with him, and “my behaviour” then got brought up at a later Elders meeting. Very humiliating, and damaging for a young girl! Of course, nothing was said to the young brother – I was the one made out to be the “Temptress!”
By the way, I passed your video to a friend of mine who has no JW background. She too was very moved by it and told me that she thought you came across as a lovely girl and that you had delivered a powerful message.
Reply
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
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Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
← Older Comments
Newer Comments →
Charles Costante says:
May 28, 2015 at 2:56 pm
“On one occasion as a 16yr old at a convention I was seen talking to a young single brother from a different congregation. ……….. But I was swooped upon; dragged away to my embarrassment and treated as though I had been up to all sorts of shenanigans with him, ……”
Rosie, you sound as though you’ve been through the mill with that stupid cult. Unfortunately, they can’t have a life and have nothing better to do than speculate about other people’s. I remember at one District convention in the seventies I was asked by my sister if I would look after my young nephew for a while during one of the breaks (something had come up which she needed to attend to) so I took him by the hand and we went for a walk. Along the way I bumped into a sister from my congregation and we started chatting. She then took my nephew’s other hand and we continued walking. Well, within a couple of hours the JW grapevine had both of us engaged and there was speculation about when we would marry. I find it amusing now, but was quite annoyed at the time.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 4:39 pm
There is a sister and brother in my congregation that love the elders and make very moving comments at meetings (when I attended) about what a wonderful job the elders do etc. and how fortunate our congregation is to have such “loving” brothers as our elders. What those people don’t know is that when their son was about 16 years old, he liked a young girl from a neighboring congregation and at one of our circuit assemblies, one of the brothers from the young girl’s kingdom hall, was telling my husband and me how the brothers from the girl’s kingdom hall were all taking turns following the young man around, making sure that he didn’t grab that girl and rape her in the bushes during the lunch breaks.
If the brother and sister (the mom and dad) in my old congregation had any idea that those men were following their son around like that, thinking he was going to rape that girl, I wonder if their comments about how “loving” the elders would be then?
If I ever get called before a committee, that is one of the things that I will tell the elders that I am going to do is to tell that sister and her husband about what happened at that assembly concerning their 16 year old boy and we will see just how long they would stay in this “wonderful and loving” religion then.
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:10 pm
Brie : I was emotionally involved and cried when you cried during the video . I was raised as a witness, then my family stopped attending when I was ten, but a lot of the damage had been done. My mother was murdered by her second husband in the late 80s. So needless to say, I had questions. I progressed and later served in the circuit work with my spouse.
Even fiber of my body tells me this religion is wrong and I can’t see any “good God” backing it. Your testimony of the women added more reason for me to feel the way I do… Thanks so much for your courage and honesty!
Reply
Willows says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:48 am
It just go’s to show there is a sense of justice in all persons young and old. It can not be covered over, put under the carpet, it will come to the surface and be expressed. What Brie has related is true and others have been raped and gone to elders for help only to be accused of shocking things. I remember one circuit overseer saying some of these elders would not be appointed in other congregations, so the standards are all over the place. When a person comes for help, that is what they should get. Be comforted and reassured.
The lack of follow up to help shows a lack of love and concern, then to call people names show they are not following Christ. There is a saying the fish stinks from the head down. Freedom from oppression is calling out loud and clear. It is true what go’s around comes around. With the judgement they give, it will be given to them.
Reply
Ted says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:37 am
@anonymous, Your account of the brother being followed
by elders, to check on his actions, is like the Gospel narrative
at Mark 3: 1-6. There the Pharisees followed Jesus closely
to see if he would break the Sabbath Law.
I don’t think Jesus would qualify as an elder today. He applied
the Law with “Equity” ( fairness ) and humanity, not rigidly
I know that many elders are reasonable and have good qualities
but they are constrained by the rule book, and this can make them
hard and unyielding.
As Brie rightly says this is a “Hierarchy”. At the top are men who
act like the Pharisees, stifling the individual conscience and pressing
elders, and everyone else , into the same inflexible pattern.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:01 am
Ted, I think there are lots and lots of really good elders who don’t act like pharisees and really love the congregation and wouldn’t follow young ones around and treat them like criminals when they haven’t even done anything wrong but there are also a lot who would follow a young one around like those elders were doing to that young fellow from my congregation.
I know the reason they didn’t “trust” that young man is because he wasn’t real regular out in service or meetings and he was quiet.
Once when my son was about 10 or 11, he was visiting at a friend’s house who was a Witness and his friend from the Hall lived right down the street from us. My son and his friend who was about a year older were talking about visiting another young boy from the Kingdom Hall and his friend’s mom was in earshot of them talking and the mother of my son’s friend (a Witness also) told her son that she didn’t want him to go and visit that other kid because the other kid wasn’t baptized and so wasn’t “good association”.
My son then got the impression then that since he wasn’t baptized yet, that then in order to be considered “good association” that he also must get baptized because he got the impression loud and clear from his friend’s mother that he also must not be considered “good association” since he wasn’t baptized. So then my son decided to get baptized and went through the questions with the elders. At the time, the elders said he wasn’t ready but by the next assembly they did let him get baptized.
It isn’t just the elders who can be judgmental and Pharisaical. The Watchtower organization taught us all to be judgmental and Pharisaical. We were taught that our kids were not to associate with anybody who didn’t go to meetings regularly and answer at the meetings and go in service every week and talk about how they wanted to pioneer when they got of school and on and on.
If a kid didn’t look up the scriptures at the meetings and have them written down in the margins it would show that that kid just wasn’t good enough for our kids to associate with and could drag our kid down “spiritually” and so to make sure our kids were good “association”, we had to make sure that our kids answered at the meetings and underlined their Watchtowers in bright markers to make sure everyone around could see how well our kids did their lessons and we had to make sure that our kids talked about how much they wanted to pioneer etc. and how disgusting it was to even to consider going to college. We had to make sure that our kids took notes at assemblies and we had to make dam sure that our kids sat quietly at the meetings when they were little and to make sure that we were really good examples, we’d beat the crap out of our kids in the back of the hall in the bathroom so everyone could hear them scream. We wanted our kids to be accepted and have friends at the Hall so that is what we did so they would have friends at the Kingdom Hall because we knew they weren’t allowed to have any friends who weren’t Witnesses and besides we thought that if we “inculcated” the “truth” into them that it would save them through Armageddon. All that was so drummed into us from the Society’s literature that we were all turned into Pharisees. The Society wants all of the Witnesses to be “proud” to be Witnesses and most are very proud (not in a good way). That is how we were trained by the Organization to be as parents to our kids. Is it any wonder that hardly any of those kids want anything to do with the “truth” when they grow up?
The last I looked, I think Brie’s video will reach the 600,000 mark by the end of the day. She has over 5,000 likes and only 287 dislikes.
All those Witnesses who clicked dislike would like to think that those kinds of elders that Brie talked about would be in other congregations and not their own but if they ever got molested and raped like those sisters she talked about, then and only then would they understand all the 5,000 likes because what she described happening to those sisters is Watchtower policy and those elders were following orders from the Society.
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sirius says:
May 30, 2015 at 5:48 am
Sure looks and reads like how muslims operate, through non-assimilation. Not to be governed or tainted by non-believers (Jews, Christians, Kafiers, Infidels etc.). Hard to believe in today’s enlightenment we are to tolerate the intolerant yet under a faith… wholesale practiced intolerance by JWs and muslims. So much for simple human rights, having an equality of respect & dignity.
Brie, an excellent presentation!
dogstar
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danman says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:07 am
There was a brief moment in Watchtower history that came when Ray Franz tried to steer the governing body toward ‘freedom of conscience’. I remember articles in the Watchtower about allowing each other the freedom to decide, based upon ‘Christian principles’.
It was like a breath of fresh air wafting through halls of strict enforced ‘pharisaical’ policies and rules. Of course as soon as Bethel heavies began to see the self study of the bible, independent actions, they quickly reigned back ‘personal conscience’ for even more thorough, trite rules and policies via secret elder manuals and the like.
An opportunity to become an organization of true Christian freedom, lost forever, because a few wise men read and truly understood what Jesus was teaching. Protecting power and influence was and is at the base root of the Watchtower structure.
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:40 am
@Anonymous & @ Danman BOTH of your COMMENTS show ALL the HALLMARKS of a CULT !!! You Really have YEARS of Experience between you & the points you make show the GB & the Organisation is GOVERNED by PHARASAICAL Rules which have no relation to Christianity because Jesus wanted LOVE,JUSTICE & MERCY!!!
Where in the Scriptures has the GB got the right to tell me WHAT DAMN COLOUR SHIRT to WEAR on the PLATFORM & whether I have a BEARD or not as I was told in 1984 by my body of Elders !!!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:11 pm
If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness myself and now having become a “disassociated fader” that just raised so many red flags. Any witness, disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility?
I believe her, but man that just troubles me.
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:49 pm
@J*L*C*R . I have listened to Brie twice now & she does say the correct pronunciation ! This is an INNOCENT Question but do you listen to LOUD Music a lot because you may have lost some of your sense of hearing.
Perhaps you should visit a Doctor who specialises in HEARING Disabilities! I say this with genuine concern as now you have no hope of the ‘PARADISE’ your hearing won’t be healed in the New System!!
I can VOUCH for Everything she says which I have seen & experienced much of what she relates in many many instances!!
You are NOT a MAN by ANY CHANCE!!! Because WOMEN have Had Enough of being Treated as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS in the ORGANISATION ,LETS Not NIT PICK But concentrate on the Positive!!
This Video will Help tens of thousands of women BREAK FREE from The SLAVERY imposed on them in this Organisation & YES I CALL DOMESTIC ABUSE …. SLAVERY!!!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:50 pm
Pickled Brain….for someone who states they hate the watchtower so much, you really enjoy using their tactics of bullying and insulting language when trying to convey an argument.
Not to mention going completely off the reservation with the topic at hand… we are talking about the greenhorn, door-step bible student mistake of mispronouncing the name of the religion.
Any JW would laugh at this because of the mistakes in small details. In order to sway their entrenched opinion, you have to be on your toes with the facts at hand.
I clearly heard her repeatedly say “Jehovah Witness” singular and not plural…that’s just my opinion.
This does not detract from her argument or message in any way…she conveyed it politely, stayed on topic, and was courteous throughout. Maybe, you should watch it a third time and learn some of that before giving someone both barrels over the internet.
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Pat says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:25 pm
J*L*C*R , I for one like to misspell their name too, I do it subconsciously. I think it’s a way of showing I am not one of them anymore, I don’t follow their rules, call them however I want sort of thing.
I was brought up in this religion too.
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Queen Elsa says:
May 29, 2015 at 11:21 pm
Who cares!!!! Nit picking like the organization does, drives me nuts!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:13 am
Also, not “nit picking” is why I was trapped in this organization for so long. Critically examine everything before you accept it at face value. Her main point was “think for yourself”….seriously people, don’t be a sheep.
Just because something “tickles your ear” doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be subjective and examine it thoroughly.
Pat says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:04 pm
But that’s exactly my point, I was trying to show that not spelling JWs name correctly is completely normal even if you were a witness for decades, hence in my opinion it is totally irrelevant in establishing the truthfulness of Brie’s story.
Liam smith says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:26 pm
Well done you for standing up to the bullies on this site
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:29 pm
Liam Smith – What an interesting observation coming from someone who, on first arriving on this site, once said…
“Been a fader for 3 years now and actually find some of the comments on here so petty and nit picking, GET A LIFE.”
Amazing that I am a bully for saying “You’re easily insulted,” while your “petty and nitpicking, GET A LIFE” remark gets a clean bill of health.
anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:47 pm
@J*L*C*R, are you seriously suggesting that she made up her life experience in the “truth” because she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness? Why in the world would a young girl make up a story like that when most Witness kids find it embarrassing to even admit to the rest of the kids that they even belong to the Witness religion?
How she was treated as a young Witness is why she spoke with such feeling and she has EMPATHY for the victims that she is talking about which most Witnesses don’t have.
If anyone doubts that she is telling the truth, there has to be something wrong with them or else that girl deserves an Oscar for such a moving performance for being such a good actress and I for one can’t imagine that she is acting.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:57 pm
I said I believed her… I only implied that why one Earth would someone mispronounce the name of the religion? It was probably a simple mistake but not even bible studies make that greenhorn mistake in mispronunciation… particularly someone who grew up in it. When a person makes novice mistakes like that, it detracts from the message. It’s like listening to a lecture and someone constantly mispronouncing the subject…after awhile it’s just embarrassing.
Also, that’s a nice comment you made about “If anyone doubts that she is telling the truth, there has to be something wrong with them”. That reminds me of an organization that called anyone with a different opinion “mentally handicapped”…I wonder where we have heard that before?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:03 pm
Also, not “nit picking” is why I was trapped in this organization for so long. Critically examine everything before you accept it at face value. Her main point was “think for yourself”….seriously people, don’t be a sheep.
Just because something “tickles your ear” doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be subjective and examine it thoroughly.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:26 pm
That wasn’t the end of my sentence J*L*C*R. I don’t know for sure that everything she said was the truth either but if she’s not telling her true experience with the “truth” then I said she deserves an Oscar for being that good an actress. Her speech was so moving that she had students also tearing up and I am sure that a lot of people who watched her video teared up when they were listening to it. If she’s that good an actress, she deserves an award for it.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:14 pm
and to add to my last comment, I have heard many a Witness say Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness from people who have been in the “truth” for many many years. It is a common mistake especially for people who weren’t allowed to go to college and especially for people who aren’t in the “truth” and you have to remember that she was talking to kids who are used to hearing the term Jehovah Witnesses instead of Jehovah’s Witnesses but she does start out by saying that she was raised a “Jehovah’s Witness”.
Also, she names the congregation where she was from and the first experience was in that congregation and could be easily proved false if it wasn’t true.
When Brie gave that speech, she was just giving a speech in class and had no idea it would get hundreds of thousands of views within a week and if she had known that was going to happen, she probably would have been really nervous. She had no idea that thousands of people were going to see her speech and didn’t realize that there would be people who would pick on every little word she said wrong, which is a good thing. If she had known ahead of time what would happen, who knows? Maybe she would have been too nervous, knowing how people would be picking it apart, word by word and not had to courage to go through with her speech.
What she did took courage beyond courage and to say that her speech raised red flags to you, raises red flags to your comment as far as I am concerned.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:29 pm
What part of “I agree with what she said” didn’t you understand? You are preaching to the choir, already. Good lord friend, take a breath.
And please, just because someone has a different opinion other than yours, DOES NOT give you the right to shove your own down their throats. If I wanted to not have a cool, calm debate over a topic; I’d just as soon start attending my meetings again and have their opinions shoved down my throat.
We can agree or disagree without being disagreeable.
Also, before you throw another tantrum. I AGREE WITH BRIE AND EVERYTHING SHE SAID….I ALSO AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SAID. (except for the whole “if you disagree with brie something must be wrong with you” part that was just plain rude.
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R*L*C*J says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:41 pm
Seriously… you people blocked me? I am the only EX JW who is not so touchy about their past experiences that they cannot politely discuss their opinions with others? I was nothing but polite and courteous to all the people who insulted me and you don’t see me blocking them.
For Pete’s sake, one person says anything contrary to popular opinion and they jump on them faster than a pizza at a weightloss convention.
Has anyone read Pickled Brains response to mine? There were so many ad hominem attacks, insults, and bullying remarks, you would think Pickled Brain was a member of the governing body. Particularly, after I wrote “I agree with what she said”.
Just because your typing and looking at an empty computer screen doesn’t give anyone the right to be rude to the other.
anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:13 pm
J*L*C*R, again, my whole sentence was if anyone doubted that she was telling the truth there has to be something wrong with them, did not end there. The rest of the sentence was because if she is not telling the truth, she has to get an Oscar for her performance.
Neither of us knows her or lived through her experiences so all we can do is go by what she said and how she said it. I wasn’t saying that if anyone doubted her that there was something wrong with them and left it there.
We are all entitled to our opinions but most dyed in the wool Witnesses would say the same thing you did and then they would call into question the validity of her being a Witness and say she is making it all up because she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness every time but if you listen to her speech again, you will hear that she starts out by saying “I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness”.
There were a couple things about her speech too that I wondered about like why in the world would those elders tell that young woman that she had to drop the charges against her rapist if she wasn’t to get disfellowshipped especially since the one that raped her wasn’t even a Witness.
What I would love to see is if it get national attention and she is able to go on television and give the whole story or maybe have those women come on and tell their stories to back her up. I am sure there is much more to the stories that she had to leave out because of time constraints.
Cedars says:
May 30, 2015 at 1:47 am
“I believe her, but man that just troubles me.”
You’re easily troubled.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:42 am
Seriously, Lloyd. For someone I look up to as a man for free thinking and not taking things at face value, you insult me?
You were a witness once too, in your congregation didn’t the die hards laugh at those who called themselves “Jehovah Witness” instead of “I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
I would expect to be congratulated at such scrutiny, from a man such as yourself, who ALWAYS says to ask questions.
I was you and your articles that woke myself and my mother and father up in the first place.
For someone who suffers from depression Lloyd, that was a pretty low comment to say to someone who may have the same affliction.
You are my hero Lloyd, and your reaction to my comment is just plain hurtful.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:52 am
Also, when it comes to finding the truth about the realities of the Watchtower’s crimes, yes I am easily troubled. Anyone serious about taking them down would be easily troubled to anything they could turn around and beat the arguer over the head with.
Brie did a fantastic job but in the eyes of any witness, (as you know) when they start calling themselves “Jehovah Witness” it all goes out the window for them.
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Cedars says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:12 am
You’re insulted by my saying “you’re easily troubled?”
Then you’re also easily insulted.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:16 am
I took your comment too seriously. All things aside though, I can’t believe I am talking to you Lloyd. You are my hero!
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:24 am
This is why I don’t like online communication, same with emails. I can’t hear a person’s tone and their sense of humor (like I know you definitely have one over prank calling Tight Pants Tony) over the internet.
I’ve always wanted to get involved and write an article for your site, Lloyd. How can a person go about doing that? If that’s even an option?
Anyway, thanks for your time Lloyd, and the opportunity to talk with you.
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:01 am
I came to this site in hopes of finding cool and calm individuals I could have a horizon broadening debate with. Now I see there are just as many hotheads and extremists on this site as there are at my Kingdom Hall. I’ll have to keep looking, I guess.
Anyway, I have a life to live now free from the Watchtower. A world where I am not afraid to share my opinions with others from fear of reprisals.
Last Words…just because it’s coming from a seemingly innocent and reliable source, don’t automatically assume it’s the truth. Examine the facts and come to your own conclusions…
You should patrol and inforce your guidlines more Lloyd, I have never been more insulted in my life than in your comments section.
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Darlene says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:46 am
J*L*C*R, of course it is always good to try to get to the bottom of something. But everything has its extremes, like the complete acquiesce of people in the cult and also the people out of it, who now challenge everything and believe nothing.
Think the other way around, if she’d somehow made that up and faked her JW experience I’d expect her to be very very fussy to NOT let something like that slip. I’d expect her to research JWs really good so that she knew how they are called. There might be exceptions, but probably the normal young student is not capable of pulling such a double stunt. And if, what’d be the point of that? For what purpose should she troll the JW and Ex-JW community?
I guess it’s just that: a nervous pupil giving a speech about something highly emotional in which she is directly involved. Such errors simply happen.
(Answer to (citate) just in case it got mixed up):
If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness myself and now having become a “disassociated fader” that just raised so many red flags. Any witness, disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility?
I believe her, but man that just troubles me
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:35 pm
Anonymous…I agree 100%. :)
Also, it turns out I wasn’t blocked, it was a spam sifter or something. My bad. (operator malfunction)
It’s hard enough for a kid to speak in front of the class, let alone about a topic so sensitive. She is a courageous young woman who has my respect.
I also want to apologize to you for what I said earlier. I took your comment to literally and I scrutinized her speech a little too much.
Since, i’ve left the “truth” all of my friends and some of my family have cut all ties. Going to school now even (community college), I keep my past hidden because I am afraid of how my new friends would react to being around an ex cultist.
Brie really is an inspiration. One day, I hope I can confront my own past and follow her example.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:55 pm
I understand. You were playing devil’s advocate and there is nothing wrong with that. I believe in doing the same thing if we want active Witnesses to know that we aren’t being biased but being honest with them.
If Witnesses are going to pick on her video and call it into question, they will pick on one little thing like that and dismiss everything else that she said. Their brains will stop at that and go no further.
Witnesses will look for any little imperfections in her speech to say she is making it up but most honest people can tell by how she speaks, that she was affected personally and that comes through loud and clear. We also have to remember that she was only giving a speech to her class and did not know it would be to the world, like it turned out to be. Had she known ahead of time and she wasn’t too nervous to give that speech, she would have made it perfect, I am sure. As it was, it was from the heart and it didn’t have to be perfect but it was amazing anyway.
It has only been one week since her speech and this is only the beginning. Hopefully it reaches millions and millions of views. Hopefully there will be a ground swell against the Society starting with the youth and maybe her speech will give other children the courage to speak up too. Her speech makes me want to get up in front of people and do the same thing. She truly is an inspiration to all of us.
The youth are the next generation and if they refuse to fall in step, then the head of the snake will die.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:48 pm
Amen to that anonymous…. the sooner the better.
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Grace says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:49 pm
@J*L*C*R,
You did raise a legitimate question, I did notice that she said “Jehovah Witness”. I just put it down to nerves & I thought that still ins would pick that but I thought that if that’s all that they had to pick then they’re being nit picky which is something that they are good at.
Your opinions are appreciated, it’s good to have open debate.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:50 pm
Thank you! Your open-mindedness is greatly appreciated. :)
If we can’t have good, polite debates here then where can we have them?
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M Saurus says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:17 pm
I watched the video and quite frankly was a little weirded out when she got all choked up. I know it’s nerve-wracking giving a speech like that and she recovered nicely.
However, I do agree with JLCR. I was entrenched in this religion from age 8 to age 48, about 3 years ago. The most laughed at and popular “mistake” was always when someone said I’m a Jehovah Witness. No. If you’ve been involved for more than 6 months or so, you are “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
I too heard Brie make that mistake in terminology throughout her video. Maybe her mother was “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” – but she was, by her own admission, “a Jehovah Witness”. Big, Big difference.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:51 pm
Exactly!
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Grace says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:51 pm
@Who Shall Go When God’s Kingdom Comes?,
Have you thought of maybe trying a new drug. You sound very intoxicated.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:54 pm
I know that’s right! I’ll have what he’s having. 😉
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 9:32 pm
@J*L*C*R . GOOD GRIEF ! I CANNOT Believe the debate that has ensued while I went to sleep after my last comment !! I am from the U,K. and it is 5.30 . Just getting up to get ready for field service You LACK a Sense of humour J*L*C*R . You ACCUSE ME of NOT BEING POLITE!! Well you Don’t do a BAD JOB of Being Insulting & YES YOU ARE RIGHT ….., I AM A MEMBER of the GOVERNING BODY going under the guise of …. PICKLED BRAIN…!!!!
ANTHONY is my REAL NAME… You LACK A SENSE of HUMOUR & for that I Will ANNOUNCE from the PLATFORM that you WILL BE ….. RE-INSTATED!!!
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 9:57 pm
@J*L*C*R …. Before I commented to you there were only 72 replies to this post & I thought there should be at least 500 on THIS BRILLIANT YOUNG LADIES POST!!
I BET YOU ARE From the GOOD OLD U.S.A…,,, Just have a STRANGE FEELING in MY GOOD OLD … EZEKIEL BONES !!!! A Bit Like the FAITHFUL SLAVE had in 1919!!
Oh hhhh !! BOY oh BOYI am GOING to ENJOY DEBATING with you J*L*C*R*.
Anyway MUCH CHRISTIAN LOVE to YOU …. J*L*C*R*
LOVE ANTHONY the THIRDddddd xxx
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:53 pm
Either you are being extraordinarily rude to M Saurus or your up to your eyeballs in that religion. If so, trust me I’ve been in your shoes…get out before it’s too late and your life and time has been wasted….no joke.
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 12:46 am
@J*L*C*R . You could be RIGHT maybe I have spent too long in this Religion!! Something I can agree with you on… & YES I suppose sometimes the mouth can run ahead of the brain ! I have to admit it can happen to the best of us or the worst!
But they say it takes a STRONG MAN to say they are SORRY !! So I am willing to say I was too harsh in my comments to you & yes you have a right to comment on how BRIE said things .
BUT I will say it is important to STAY UNITED in WHAT BRIEs MESSAGE was & that was INJUSTICE AGAINST WOMEN !!
I
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:46 am
Amen, Pickled Brain. I except your apology.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:57 am
If you bothered to read my comment to anonymous, I apologized to him to.
I came to this site in hopes of finding cool and calm individuals I could have a horizon broadening debate with. Now I see there are just as many hotheads and extremists on this site as there are at my Kingdom Hall. I’ll have to keep looking, I guess.
Anyway, I have a life to live now free from the Watchtower. A world where I am not afraid to share my opinions with others from fear of reprisals.
Last Words…just because it’s coming from a seemingly innocent and reliable source, don’t automatically assume it’s the truth. Examine the facts and come to your own conclusions…
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:26 am
@J*L*C*R* . Thank you for BEING SO GRACIOUS in your Acceptance of my apology . IT IS APPRECIATED !!! You have shown yourself to be a DECENT PERSON !!
WE all NEED on this site to be in UNISON in our FIGHT against the Watchtower & GB!!
The main Focus here is what Brie Highlighted that WOMEN in the ORGANISATION are Treated like Second Class Citizens!!!
Take care J*L*C*R* … You have suffered like the rest of us at the hands of the GB & Watchtower . So I wish you well
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:23 am
@J*L*C*R * . We ALL NEED as Many Comments on this site as possible. Your comments are Valued !!! I might be a bit Naughty at times with my comments but US BRITS HUMOUR May not be Appreciated by ALL . But we Need you ALL on this site !
Let’s Carry the Fight TOGETHER !!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:46 pm
@Shanti . I LIKE your CALM LOGIC in your Comments & Reasoning to J*L*C*R *
Your comments show a very balanced approach & Attitude & did influence me in my Apology to J*L*C*R* .
We don’t want to intentionally hurt anyone who is struggling to get over from the damage the GB have done to people!!
Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:51 pm
A king has no power without his army.
Thus a few men on the GB don’t deserve all the blame. Their supporters are guilty too. Without them, the GB would have no power.
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:10 pm
@Apostates will SUFFER GNASHING of Teeth. I JUST CANT RESIST Having SENSIBLE DIALOGUE with you …. As we are getting on so well together … I Feel Quite Close to you ???? Pardon Me , but do you mind if I CALL You ‘ GNASHING ‘ for short … It has such a WARM FEEL To it !!!
Anyway my DEAR GNASHING , you sat the GLORIOUS TRUTH will SHINE THROUGH ‘!!!!
Could you Kindly tell me ‘Is that the GLORIOUS TRUTH about 1799(Last Days According to Russell)) & 1874& 1878 or 1914,1918,1919,1925,1975 or the Glorious Truth about ‘ the GENERATION ‘ or ‘Sheep& Goats or Who the F& D Slave are or whether to have ORGAN TRANSPLANTS????
Well my Dear Gnashing Teeth … See you at the DENTISTS!!! I think you NEED FILLING IN Or CROWNED !!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:14 pm
@ Simon Kestrel. I appreciated your comment about ‘Except’ ,
I enjoy your comments.
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:22 pm
@ GNASHING !!! WHERE ARE YOU … MY LOVE???
Swallowtail says:
May 30, 2015 at 5:04 pm
That is absolutely hilarious Pickled Brain. I am sure “Gnashing” had more important things to do, like go collect all the pocket change/ice cream money from the kids at his local kingdom hall. The society does not need the money or anything, they just need something shiny to glue to their miniature pyramid they are building. Got to let the light get brighter after all…….
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:19 pm
@Swallow Tail . GLAD you enjoyed the LOVE that is BLOSSOMING between ME & GNASHING ????!
I feel like writing a NEW BIBLE BOOK called …… Wait for it ….. Da DA Da …, ‘The SONG of GNASHING ‘. …Solomon … EAT YOUR HEART OUT!!!
SwallowTail .. I REALLY ENJOY your SENSE of HUMOUR TOO!!! My HERO ??is JOHN CLEESE!!! Just Love FAWLTY TOWERS & Parts of MONTY PYTHON!!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:57 pm
@J*L*C*R . YOU ARE RIGHT.., WE ARE STRONGER UNITED !!! Don’T LET the GB WIN by DIVIDING US … So APOLOGIES to ANYONE ELSE on this Site I may have Rubbed up the Wrong Way in the Past !!
Let’s BEAT the GB TOGETHER !!!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:29 pm
@Finn Sawyer. Scrolling back to earlier comments I noticed your ones . You show a Depth of wisdom in how you approach your subject like Shanti does .
Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 11:04 pm
Thanks PB. I enjoy your comments as well.
Pickled brain says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:43 am
@Swallowtail . Glad you like my ‘Song of Gnashing’… WONDER IF MY SONG will Make the NEW SONG BOOK !!! I will submit it to the GB…What do you think my chances are???
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:43 pm
@ Pickled Brain, Don’t you waste your awesome ‘Song of Gnashing’ on them now!! You keep that jewel for yourself and all of us! LOL
Pickled brain says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:20 pm
@Swallowtail . I think you are right . My Talented Song would probably be wasted on the GB though I was thinking of Asking Stephen LETTS to Sing it !!
I MEAN his GNASHING GESTURES would be AMAZING!!! & David Splane would make a Great DRACULA!!!!
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:10 pm
THAT’S GENIUS Pickled Brain. Hey while we are at it, lets get them to perform it in some “tight pants”.
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 1:07 am
@Swallowtail . NOW THATS WHAT I CALL…… ‘ NEW LIGHT’!!!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:23 am
@Exhausted . Enjoy your comments & I like the Name you’ve called yourself . I think we have ALL FELT MENTALLY EXHAUSTED at Times because of the EMOTIONAL PAIN & HURT caused by the STUPID & CRUEL RULES of 7 MEN in BROOKLYN !!
& AS you say IT IS the SUBJUGATION of WOMEN in this CULT & the The ISSUE of DOMESTIC ABUSE & the DISGUSTING WAY it is HANDLED by the GB!!!
UTTERLY DISGRACEFUL !!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:39 am
DAVID SPLANE & HIS WHITE ONLY CHOIR with the Token black person thrown in MAKES ME SICK!!
Years ago the GB stopped sisters playing the piano for songs in the Kingdom Hall BECAUSE it DREW TOO MUCH ATTENTION to the SISTER playing the Piano.
SUBJUGATION of WOMEN AGAIN…..But the DRAMA QUEEN …. DAVID ( Dracula ) SPLANE PONCES about with his FLIPPING WAND( conductors stick) .. WAVING it ABOUT like He’s GODS GIFT to the Philharmonic Orchestra.
DRACULA …. Sorry I mean … DAVID ,the DAMNED END is COMING( ARMAGEDDON ) , GET OUT & Get your DAMNED CART out there ,Knock on a few Doors & SAVE LIVES!!
GET RID of the CHOIR .!! Our DEAR Stephen LETTS is SHORT on FUNDS !!! & KEEP Your LIFE SIMPLE !!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 3:37 pm
If Anyone wants to see the FAMOUS , ILLUSTRIOUS CONDUCTOR & COMPOSER:
DAVID VON SPLANE BEETHOVEN ! PLEASE Look at That Popular TV Series … TV.JW.Org & Go to the Music Section & Songs….. JUST SO FINANCIALLY INSPIRING !!!
Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:45 pm
PB, those choir pieces literally make me nauseous. When did this organization become so obsessed with singing and music videos? Growing up, I asked my parents why we weren’t allowed to listen to Christian rock, why don’t we have a choir? Seems like that would be ideal music for a Christian, my naive mind reasoned. The answer: “It’s not Christian it’s from the Devil!” Now, I’m sure JW chicks are falling all over themselves for the anonymous music video brother the’yre using these days in the broadcasts. What’s next? A long-haired rock band? I can barely keep up the light is getting brighter so quickly!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:00 pm
@FInn . What REALLY ANNOYED me last year our Congregation donated £3000 for Hospitality for Inter ational Delegates & SIsters & Brothers were Dancing & Singing to Pharrell Williams song ‘HAPPY’
Back in the 1980s I DESTROYED all my Rock Records of The Rolling Stones, The Who,Bad Company ,Deep Purple, David Bowie,Etc because of the GB telling us ‘ Would we Listen to this Music IF JESUS was in the Room with us??
So OBVIOUSLY …. JESUS is HAPPY to Listen to Pharrell Williams …. WELCOME to the Forever Changing ‘ CLARIFICATIONS & ADJUSTMENTS of 7 mainly AMERICAN MEN in Brooklyn !!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:15 pm
@Finn . I think the Camera LINGERS TOO LONG on the SISTER with the RED LIPSTICK … Or Hang on Maybe THATS ME LINGERING Toooo Long on the Voluptuous Sister with the RED LIPSTICK !!!!
I Think DavId SPLANES Conductors STICK is TOO UPRIGHT when He POINTS HIS ‘STICK????? At the SISTER with the RED LIPSTICK !!
Anyway i am SURE If you are Reading this Post … David….Your MOST HOLINESS that you could CORRECT ?? Me if I am Wrong !!!
I BET David SPLANE Likes doing ‘ A BIT of CO- ERECTION !!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:30 pm
Please Accept my HUMBLEST APOLIGIES , but my SPELLING & PUNCTUATION Needs to be WORKED ON …. I must get some Advice from the Theocratic Ministry School Overseer!!
Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:50 pm
Have you also noticed how they give more camera time to the men than women in those choir pieces? Or is that just me?
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:48 am
hahaha! :-) Pickled Brain your “Song of Gnashing” is bound to make more sense than the Revelation its Grand Climax at Hand! book that we used to have to study. 😉
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:45 pm
Thanks Pickled Brain…. Truer words were never spoken. We are stronger united and I am grateful for having this site here, to communicate.
Anyway, thanks for the support and good luck to you too. :)
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 4:01 pm
The watchtower is so messed up with women’s rights they wouldn’t even let sisters count the money in the donation box. These sisters were professional full time bank tellers that could count the donations and sort them in 15 minutes flat. But the “elders” decided that this was inappropriate for sisters to do, so they stepped in and fumbled through the same job in over an hour. It makes absolutely no sense, that and wearing a headdress if you lead a bible study with a baptized brother present. Even if the brother is family, if he’s baptized and in the same house at the time of the study, a headdress or hat is mandatory. Just stupid and crazy stuff on the watchtower’s part.
anonymous says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:56 am
J*L*C*R, don’t be put off by Lloyd’s comments to you. I think we were all a bit put off by your initial comments about Brie because you started off by says “if” she was a Witness all those years so you started off your comment by calling into question her truthfulness, which is what any JW apologist would do and then you said when she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness, it raised “red flags” to you which also implied she was lying. Then you ended it by saying that it was “troubling to you”. All those comments were calling into question the validity of Brie’s life story.
I was hoping that Lloyd would comment and I was glad he did and I thought his comment were quite nice considering how incendiary and suspicious that Brie was telling the truth about her life in the Watchtower, your initial comments seemed to be.
After explaining that you were just playing devils advocate, your comments seemed less like a Watchtower apologist and more understandable.
I have also had some of my comments not published because maybe I came off somewhat like your comment and being critical which is not helpful to our cause of bringing the Watchtower’s lies out in the open for all to see.
If you go to Youtube and go to Brie’s youtube video, there is a link you can read about her life story that explains a lot about how terribly her and her mother have been treated and you would understand why she isn’t going to give the Watchtower any respect by saying Jehovah’s Witnesses and instead says “Jehovah Witnesses”.
Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:39 pm
RE: comments not published
It may not be censorship, I think the web site software sometimes loses them. It’s happened to me.
Charles Costante says:
May 29, 2015 at 10:18 pm
“This woman is disgusting and ugly on the inside. How shocking to use half-truths to mislead and manipulate unsuspecting school pupils to avoid learning the wonderful truths in God’s Word. But rejoice not O you apostates! Righthearted ones will surely be moved by God’s spirit to overcome these lies and come to know His Organization. To you we say: Repent and Return to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls!”
Who Shall Go When God’s Kingdom Comes?, it seems to me that you’re so used to the Governing Body speaking on your behalf that you’ve become like the puppet on a ventriloquist’s hand. Do yourself a favour and start learning the truth about the “truth” – it might actually set you free!
“If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” ”
J*L*C*R, I watched the first few minutes of the video and noticed that she does initially use “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and then it became “Jehovah Witness”. It does sound a bit odd coming from someone who has been one, but I then thought that it was probably an unconscious ‘mirroring’ to connect to her classmates.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology) Most people (and probably her classmates) call them ‘Jehovah Witnesses’, not ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’.
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Ken says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:25 pm
Honestly I found Brie’s video full of silly , and embarrassing moments of sending a picture to boy of her and a friend in a bikini . So the boy got the pics on cell , so his mom caught him masturbating to them ,so the boys mom reports Brie to the “elders” seems a bit out of character for a mother , but if Brie sent those pictures to that boy , seems a bit odd that she
would get DF for doing that . You might say that
Brie’s mother should have gotten involved since she
is “underage”. Forgive me Ceders , but this is stupid .
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:36 pm
@Ken, that’s what this religion diminishes people to. I have friends who are mothers of daughters of the same age & I can tell you it all sounded so silly at the time listening to their stories but that’s what this religion does to people. You start to lose your own assuredness.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:00 pm
Ken, you really should watch the video before commenting.
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SwimmingWild says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:39 am
@Charles Costante
Interesting possibility – unconscious mirroring by Brie of her classmates vocabulary – a well known neurologically programmed behaviour as the link showed. They would more likely know the cult members as Jehovah Witnesses.
Also it could be a conscious courtesy to her audience – using the term Brie knows they use for this group. It’s like when I go the the USA (from the UK) I will refer to the “trunk” rather than the “boot” of a car. Or to adjust for the different pronunciation of tomato, potato and garage in American English.
None of this makes any difference to the content and effective delivery of her talk – and its brilliantly successful publicising of the dark side if this cult.
SwimmingWild
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Shanti says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:06 am
J*L*C*R*:
I think the primary objective was to come to Brie’s defense and not to insult you. You must understand there are regulars on this forum who have distinct personalities. Please get to know them and understand their voices. They all have something to offer as I think you do as well. I can understand how passionate you are about your views. I don’t doubt for a minute that the regulars here would come to your defense if it was required.
The JW’s left me w/ the sense of “it’s me or them”. If they don’t agree w/ me, they must be against me. That is just not true. I have to fight it every day. Coming to this website has helped me understand that we might disagree on the little things but we are united where it counts.
I appreciate what Brie did regardless of the wording. I don’t want to take the attention away from this milestone with what might appear to outsiders as petty infighting. She is very young to have taken on this responsibility and I think the attention and focus needs to be on what she did accomplish. There are so many positives about what this young woman did. I would love to hear followups from her. I don’t want to squelch her creativity because we circled all the errors in red ink and sent the piece back to her. I would love to see her contribute articles on this website w/ Cedars. She is just starting her escape from the JW’s. We all know how difficult that is. It would be so exciting to have her check in and tell us her progress.
Congratulations on leaving the JW’s with your family intact. That is a milestone on it’s own merit. Many of us have not been so lucky and are still struggling to cope with life w/o any family.
I think we all need a reminder that it takes a while to shake the “JW” out of our heads.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:49 pm
Thanks for the kind words, Shanti! It’s a struggle for us all and I hope to get to know the regulars here in time. Thanks again.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:29 pm
J*L*C*R, you told Pickled you “except” his apology.
I know what you meant. But as you demonstrate, not everyone is 100% precise in their speech or writing. I have heard experienced JWs say “Jehovah Witness” when asked about their religion. Some, as you say, like to be precise. But others, not so much.
If we understand what people mean, that’s the important thing.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:33 pm
My reply to J*L*C*R appears BEFORE his post. Weird. Maybe a web site software bug I guess.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:12 pm
Gnashing said:
“TRUTH OF GOD’S GLORIOUS ORGANIZATION WILL SHINE THROUGH!!”
I trust it will. But the evidence I’ve examined convinces me WT is not it.
The GB says “WE ARE THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE!”
Any slave claiming that title for himself, is presumptuous. Only the master, Jesus, can decide which slaves to reward. And Jesus has not done so yet.
That false claim makes it obvious: the WT is not God’s organization, it is not God’s channel of communication.
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ScotWm says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:20 am
The self-appointed Governing Body, which claims to be the faithful slave class, has assured us that jesus will indeed reward them when they are appointed over all the Master’s belongings! Here is the official prophesy:
“When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment — over all his belongings.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.25 par.18).
The Governing Body has made Jesus’ decision for him and even described his mood as being one of delight.
If “loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics” includes the Governing Body’s history of publishing constantly-changing scriptural interpretations, making endless false prophesies and lying about Watchtower history, this prophesy will indeed come true.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:48 pm
Something may be buggy on this site, my posts are not appearing in the order I thought I posted them.
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Juan Viejo says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:56 pm
Finn (and others) – If you take a second look at the way the comments are arranged you may notice that when someone responds to an earlier comment, that response is filed beneath the original to keep the sequence in place. Some comments will have a larger response than others and so the thread will have a jump between dates. That is the option we have chosen. Otherwise, someone replies to an earlier comment but the context is lost.
Many comments are held for review because (a) they include words or phrases that might be considered obscene or have used words that may sound like a sales pitch. We get tons of that sort. (b) The writer includes one or more links within the comment. If the link goes to a spammy site or has spammy words included in the domain name [SEO, lowcost, free, buy, etc.] or they are repeated within the text, the comment will be held for review. (c) One of the administrators notices that the comment is off topic or violates one or more of the guidelines. Later comments may go through – leaving the poster to wonder why one was missing, and another was posted.
More often than not, an article like this one about Brie will draw a lot of comments and will quickly load up our review cache. Cedars and his regular crew try to keep up. Occasionally, being the webmaster, I will jump in and release or remove a ton of old comments just to help the system run more efficiently. There are some comments that are right on the line as to whether they should be approved or not – and we all try to take a liberal approach to them. But some are just a bit over the top, off subject, too adult for adults, or just a waste of Internet ink and add nothing to the thread.
I hope this gives you a general idea about what goes on in the background. Maybe by reading this comment, anyone who has not seen their comment appear within a few days send an email to contact@jwsurvey and address it to “Webmaster” – I’ll take a look at your problem to make sure it is not a glitch in the system. I’ll try to let you know why your comment was automatically
held for review. I can assure everyone that comments are appreciated – even those that are somewhat negative. So just give us a clue that you feel there is a problem and we’ll take a look.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:57 pm
I agree with JLCR and M Saurus,
I think the pronunciation thing was a little strange. It made me question how recently or closely she was involved with the JWs. But she seems to fear disfellowshipping so she must be baptized. On another point: I don’t mean to discount Brie’s story, but I also don’t think it is wrong to question her credibility. It is what we should do, whether or not the comments are for or against Watchtower. The anecdotes she related, while heart-breaking and powerful, are unsupported. There is nothing wrong with doubting their veracity. Whenever Anthony Morris lobs one of his ridiculous anecdotes our way and expects us to take it on faith we immediately suspect it is a lie. If Cedars relied on 2nd or 3rd person anecdotes I would question his credibility as well. I’m not saying the stories are worthless and I don’t think Brie was lying. But I’m not going to buy into it lock stock and barrel just because the information originates with a well-meaning, innocent person. Brie, if you’re reading this it is not a criticism of you, just a statement of how I feel a critical thinker should process information. If others find it valuable (and obviously like 600,000 do!) I’ll not criticize them.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 7:00 pm
@Finn Sawyer
You worded that absolutely perfectly. Thank you. :)
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anonymous says:
May 30, 2015 at 6:57 pm
Just one week ago, Brie posted her video and it’s over 600,000 views and still going.
With all the tall tales that the Governing Body come up with in their talks, I don’t think any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses should call into question whether or not all of Brie’s experiences were completely true or not. She was repeating what others told her and she believed them and since we weren’t there living those experiences like what those sisters went though, we have no reason to doubt that they were not true stories.
We know that when she described the disfellowshipping policy for ones who try and walk away from the religion when they find out about the lies and corruption within the Organization, there is no untruth about that and that was a very powerful part of the speech, along with how terribly kids and women are treated.
From her speech, we also got to know how much pain and suffering a child must feel to imagine their own father being killed at Armageddon and so why it was so difficult for kids to make friends at school because of that, knowing that they’d all be killed at Armageddon and turned into bird food.
What her speech did was to demonstrate the anguish that every child must feel who are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses with the constant fear of the War of Armageddon that is drummed into their heads each and every day of their lives. That is child abuse!!!
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:43 pm
@Swallowtail. Just to add to my last comment .As The ‘Apostate Gnashing of Teeth ‘Post is a diehard JW …, He or she will probably NOT have a sense of humour so the best way to beat their bilge is with Humour!!! It CONFUSES THEM … As the Elders never have a Sense of Humour when I’ve been Counseled publicly in the Watchtower for my COMMENTS !! Quite a few Sisters are Catching on to what I am Subtley doing by giving me BIG SMILES at the End of the MEETING & Saying ‘I Really Enjoyed your comments ! I know there are others in my Kingdom Hall who don’t believe a word what the GB NEW LIGHT IS , But they are TRAPPED because of FAMILY MEMBERS who Have BLIND LOYALTY to the GB & have left their Brains at Home!
This is WHAT is SO EVIL about the GB with their SHUNNING Policies , but it WILL BACKFIRE because the GB may Stop people leaving the Organistion because of Attachment to family members, BUT I Guarantee you that HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS have LEFT the ORGANISATION MENTALLY & think NEW LIGHT CONCEPT is BANANAS!!!
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Charles Costante says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:09 pm
“I don’t mean to discount Brie’s story, but I also don’t think it is wrong to question her credibility. It is what we should do, whether or not the comments are for or against Watchtower. The anecdotes she related, while heart-breaking and powerful, are unsupported. There is nothing wrong with doubting their veracity. Whenever Anthony Morris lobs one of his ridiculous anecdotes our way and expects us to take it on faith we immediately suspect it is a lie. If Cedars relied on 2nd or 3rd person anecdotes I would question his credibility as well. I’m not saying the stories are worthless and I don’t think Brie was lying. But I’m not going to buy into it lock stock and barrel just because the information originates with a well-meaning, innocent person.”
I couldn’t agree with you more, Finn! When at the age of twenty five I came to the realisation that what I had believed fervently to be the “truth” since I was toddler was a load of nonsense, I made the decision to question everything I had ever taken for granted and would continue to do so from then on. I even question “scientific fact” which some may consider a bit extreme, but I say, “once bitten, twice shy”.
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Charles Costante says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:17 pm
“Seriously, Lloyd. For someone I look up to as a man for free thinking and not taking things at face value, you insult me?”
J*L*C*R, I would have been very upset if Lloyd had made those comments to me, so I understand how you feel. He can come across as arrogant and is often sarcastic and quite defensive when contradicted, things I try and ignore only because he’s so brilliant at exposing this insidious cult. Please don’t stop posting – your posts are well thought out (unlike Watchtower doctrine) and intelligently written and I for one am glad you brought up the issue you did (I only watched a few minutes of the YouTube clip and I knew there was something that didn’t feel quite right. It was only when you brought it up that the penny dropped).
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:03 am
Charles Constante…
“J*L*C*R, I would have been very upset if Lloyd had made those comments to me, so I understand how you feel. He can come across as arrogant and is often sarcastic and quite defensive when contradicted…”
I feel like I’ve slipped into an alternate reality where the most innocent, innocuous reply can be interpreted as a scathing insult.
Let’s recap… I told J*L*C*R he was “easily troubled” by Brie’s use of the phrase “Jehovah Witnesses” rather than “Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
When J*L*C*R said he felt insulted by my “easily troubled” comment, I told him he was “easily insulted.”
Am I missing something? Where are the upsetting comments I am alleged to have made?
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:41 am
Lloyd, you are very sensitive about any criticism directed at you but you don’t seem to show the same sensitivity with others. The fact of the matter is that J*L*C*R was upset by the comment you made and so would I if it had been directed at me. Maybe we’re both oversensitive! As I said earlier, you’re brilliant at what you do and that’s really what’s important.
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:48 am
Thank you Charles, but though I hate to press you on this, are you able to explain to me precisely what about my two brief comments to J*L*C*R was so upsetting?
I plead guilty as charged to not pulling punches and taking no prisoners with my comments both here and on YouTube. I am a writer and activist, not a politician. I am looking to get my point across, not win a popularity contest. If someone writes something that is silly, I will tell them so. But I can’t help but scratch my head that anything in my “easily troubled” and “easily insulted” comments to J*L*C*R could be a genuine cause of upset to an adult with standard comprehension skills.
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:23 am
Lloyd, to tell someone that he is “easily insulted” is a criticism in anyone’s book. It may be like water off a duck’s back to some but others take those sorts of comments to heart. We’re all different – what more can I say! I thought J*L*C*R brought up a very valid point because it’s the sort of thing that JW apologists will latch onto to try and discredit what Brie had to say. It’s now been thrashed out and hopefully put to rest.
I’ll say again that I think you’re doing an amazing job of discrediting the Watchtower. I wish I had your skill of communication (I also wish I knew how to use emoticons on this site – I’m not very literate when it comes to computers).
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:37 am
“Lloyd, to tell someone that he is ‘easily insulted’ is a criticism in anyone’s book.”
A criticism can be justified or unjustified. If my ‘crime’ was that of criticizing J*L*C*R, then J*L*C*R is guilty of the same crime towards Brie, whether his criticism was justified or not.
I would actually say my “easily troubled” comment was more of an observation than a criticism, but even if you categorize it as criticism it can’t by any reasonable stretch be deemed “upsetting” unless getting upset is your default reaction to any kind of criticism, no matter how mild.
J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:20 am
Lloyd, (my comment is long but please read all of it)
This is how myself and others took your comment.
“easily troubled’= someone who gets troubled over the most minor things.
“easily insulted”= implies being a prima-dona.
“But I can’t help but scratch my head that anything in my “easily troubled” and “easily insulted” comments to J*L*C*R could be a genuine cause of upset to an ADULT WITH STANDARD COMPREHENSION SKILLS.
An Adult With Standard Comprehension Skills= You are implying that due to my (and others) interpretation of the facts I am either an (a) immature individual and therefore lacking in standard comprehension skills; or (b) I am an adult with some form of metal handicap. (That strikes a nerve because we both know who else says such things)
Either way my point was this…I have not seen this young woman’s sources and due to this lack of evidence; I refuse to take HER WORD at face value. I just left a religion that encouraged me to just accept things on blind faith..I WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN. I WILL NEVER BE A VICTIM EVER AGAIN.
What’s the difference between Lett giving a speech with unsubstantiated claims and a teary eyed young girl giving one…other than the subject matter and physical appearances? To me when I hear an argument, I need to examine just the facts presented and leave bias out of it.
A statement without proof no matter who it comes from, I don’t care if Ghandi made one, it’s still unsubstantiated.
Your comments carry more weight than anyone else’s because I look up to you. How would you like it if your hero implied your someone who takes things too literally.When you idolize them for examining everything before accepting them as truth.
Coming from anyone else I would have ignored them, but I hold you to a higher standard, Lloyd.
We all better hope this doesn’t turn out to be a hoax; or we will be eating crow for life. Until I see the facts for myself, I will not stake my reputation on ANYTHING…or ANYONE. I did that for the Governing Body once on just BLIND FAITH and I WILL NEVER do anything like that EVER AGAIN.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:37 am
I find it absolutely astonishing that comments such as “you’re easily troubled” or “you’re easily offended” can be interpreted as insults or causes for offense by anyone – and may I take this opportunity, J*L*C*R, to note that you were rightly apologetic and acknowledging your readiness to be offended before Mr Constante came riding in with his rebuke.
I find it equally baffling that my paint-by-numbers explanation of why “you’re easily troubled” and “you’re easily insulted” are not insults or legitimate reasons for upset is now being re-examined with a verbose admonishment by a poster who was so recently ready to forget it all, and who now insinuates that I am victimizing him and accusing him of being immature and mentally retarded.
I appeal to all reasonable-minded visitors to adjudicate – have I done anything to justify any of these protests against my two three-word comments, or have I drifted into an alternate dimension where “you’re easily troubled/insulted” are scathing acts of humiliation that merit strong admonition and an apology?
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:08 pm
Cedars, since you asked for another opinion–I thought your comments were insulting. Where I come from, if you tell a person they are “easily offended” or “easily insulted” it implies they are weak-minded, without back-bone. They aren’t tough enough to deal with reality. That’s the implication. Whether or not that is true is beside the point, obviously no one wants to be thought of as having a weak mind. Indeed, whenever I have referred to someone in the congregation as “easily stumbled” it was meant as an insult. That’s my take.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Thanks Finn, that’s one opinion – hopefully not the final verdict (unless I really have fallen into an alternate universe where the slightest contradiction is viewed as a scathing attack).
Given the fact that there are already two people who think “You’re easily troubled” and “You’re easily insulted” are hurtful, upsetting and offensive comments, it doesn’t surprise me that there can be a third visitor to this site with a tenuous grasp on the definition of “insult.” I dare say there are more, but in a way I’m pleased to be able to put a name to you all.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:23 pm
Hi Lloyd. I also commented but it got mixed in the middle of all the comments as I wanted to put my two cents worth in on the discussion. Thanks
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:39 pm
Thanks anonymous. This isn’t the first time people have emerged from nowhere to whip up a storm in a teacup on JWsurvey. I’m keeping tabs on the situation, and so far I’m unimpressed by one poster’s talmudic fixation with correcting Brie’s terminology, followed by his enthusiasm to find offense in my completely innocuous comments, followed by the u-turn on his apology prompted only by another poster riding to his rescue. Classic apologist behavior, if it’s not too insulting for me to say.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:47 pm
I think if a person can dish it out, they should be able to take it too.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:52 pm
I can’t argue with you there. J*L*C*R seems to want the luxury, indeed demand the luxury, of being able to discredit what others say while having his own opinions held as sacrosanct.
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:05 pm
Cedars
I think you may be easily offended and may have a tenuous grasp of what constitutes insulting language. I’m going to remember that about you.
Can you take what you dish out?
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:45 pm
Finn “Can you take what you dish out?”
Can I take being told “you’re easily troubled” and “you’re easily offended” without writing voluminous replies stating how offended I am?
Yes, very easily – because neither of those statements are insults.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:24 pm
@Finn, did you go back and read J*L*C*R’s initial comments about Brie’s speech? Just because this person doesn’t trust anybody anymore, doesn’t mean that he had to imply that Brie’s speech was all lies. It was really insulting to her. Why is it okay for this person to insult that young girl like that just because he doesn’t trust people anymore?
J*L*C*R says that you can’t believe every story so that should go for J*L*C*R as well. Why should he be believed anymore than Brie should not be believed? Why is it okay for him to do that to Brie and not take the same treatment?
When I saw Brie’s speech for the first time, I couldn’t believe what a powerful witness it was for not getting involved in the JW religion. I was blown away by her speech and so were hundreds of thousands of others. Any speech calling into question her honesty has to be just plan jealousy and nothing else. It was calling attention to themselves and taking away the attention where it belongs on the courage of that young girl.
If there is such a thing as a David and Goliath story where this young lady brings down the Society, it is this video and I am rooting for her to win and she needs all of our support. She doesn’t need any detractors.
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 6:02 pm
I’m just mirroring Lloyd’s comments to myself and others. I’m not worried he’ll be offended, since he doesn’t regard them as insults. With regard to Brie’s video, please see my earlier post on Brie’s video. I’m not impressed and I’m not going to apologize for that simply to fit in with the majority.
You know, I appreciate what Lloyd has created here. Sometimes I really like this forum, but today is not one of those days. I apologize if I have contributed to that feeling for any others.
Excelsior! says:
June 3, 2015 at 5:49 am
Lloyd,
As Thomas Mann said, everything is politics!
You have decided to run a blog and make videos. You have decided to engage with the public about these issues.
You have a lot of people visiting and commenting on this site, many of whom have been badly scarred through their dealings with the WTBTS.
To be met by your often blunt (not rude) comments can be a further kick in the teeth for these unfortunate people.
If you want to be considered an expert in cult mind control, and play a leading part in exposing the WTBTS’ many abuses, you are going to have to learn to be diplomatic in your comments.
You cannot assume that, because you are not offended by plain speaking, that others will not be.
As a fellow atheist, we may not like having bible verses quoted at us, but one comes to mind.
Speak consolingly to the depressed souls.
I can’t remember where that is in the bible, but it’s good advice for all of us.
I think that you are a good man, and that your site and videos are excellent. But sometimes you can inadvertently upset people with your less than diplomatic language.
This is especially the case when people look up to you, and so your words carry more weight than others.
See this as a positive thing, Lloyd. You are helping a lot of people and those people have been hurt badly by uncaring cultists.
Please try to think how you would feel when you were just waking up if someone spoke to you the way you talk to people.
If you want to progress in your activism, then inevitably you will have to become involved in politics. Politicians will have to either see that existing laws are properly applied, or make fresh legislation to counter the WTBTS.
I, too, can be less than diplomatic on occasion. I have to re read my comments, and edit them before I post them.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 1:54 am
Saying that somebody is “easily troubled” or saying that somebody is “easily insulted” is nothing in comparison to saying that a young girl’s speech is nothing but lies. Now there’s a real insult. Lloyd is completely right in what he said. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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just asking says:
May 30, 2015 at 11:11 pm
Once upon a time someone told me to always ask questions but refused me to question him.
Ref: Bible teach chap 1 par 1-5.
How is that called in English? double standards?
What would that make the GB.
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Innocent Son says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:02 am
I read all the comments with great interest.You see this open honest debate would not be allowed in the Org, indeed some would probably be marked, reproved and even removed…Remember please though that we are all human and do make mistakes, so let’s not get to distracted about what Brie, may or may not have said…Let us not be overly critical, just try to put ourselves in this poor girls’ shoes and think about how much bravery it must of took….Hopefully we’re all on this site for the same reason.To expose this lying, greedy, Cult and help others to break free….Shalom
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:59 am
Dear Brie, you and your mother are truly an inspiration to anyone who has the courage to stand up to the Society and this song is for you and your mom and every young person coming onto this web site.
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Ted says:
May 31, 2015 at 7:23 am
In the 50s there was a sister in our cong, who served in place
of a ministerial servant. She also sat in on the COs meetings
and he made no bones about saying she was the best servant
among us. She “Manned” the literature counter.
Of course the line was drawn against making her appointment
official. And as soon as some brothers field service reports
contained the required quotas, she was removed, and he was
given her position. The patriarchal sexist mentality prevailed
That lady qualified in an exemplary way and filled all the
requirements save one, — She wasn’t a man!
In the workplace today that situation would not be tolerated
and would result in expensive litigation if practiced.
Only in extremist, fundamental religions do these backward
ideas persist.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:22 am
@Ted
My grandmother was one of the servants in the 40’s or 50’s. When she was alive, she retained more knowledge of the Bible and history than any male I ever knew in our hall. As a kid I remember hearing that she was counseled on more than one occasion for following up the brother’s comments with correcting comments at the Watchtower study. Never rebelled and left outright though. Wish she had.
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Ted says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:41 am
@ Finn Sawyer.
Ladies like your Grandma, were the backbone of the cong,
and I’m sure they still are. I always thought the sisters were
more spiritual.
Your Grandma correcting the Brothers made me smile.
In one of the local Congs, there was an old “Remnant Bro,
and during the public talk, if he disagreed with something
he would let you know. He would shake his head and could
be heard telling those around him what the right interpretation
was. To say it was disconcerting is putting it mildly.
When he died I helped clear out his house. His stuff was sold
and the money sent to the Org, that he had devoted his life to.
A waste on both counts, and sad.
Nice to hear your experience, thanks for sharing.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:13 am
@J*L*C*R, Lloyd’s comment was a whole lot nicer than the one that I wanted to leave for you. Everything in your first comment was saying that Brie was making up the whole thing. This is how you started out:
“If” she has been in it so long…how come she makes the mistake of “constantly” (She didn’t CONSTANTLY say Jehovah Witnesses like you said) calling them “Jehovah Witnesses” when it’s “Jehovah’s Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness (This should have been a Capital W at the front of Witness as long as you are being so nit-picky) because the word Witness is a PROPER NOUN WHICH YOU EVIDENTLY DIDN’T REALIZE AND SHOULD HAVE KNOWN IF YOU REALLY WERE A WITNESS SUCH A LONG TIME AS YOU CLAIM), disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…(IF again) if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility? I believe her, but man that just troubles me.”
Everything in your first comment was calling Brie a liar and it was very insulting to her. We didn’t hear the experiences of the 3 women in the first person that she talked about but everything else she said is Watchtower policy and IF YOU HAD BEEN A WITNESS SUCH A LONG TIME AS YOU CLAIM, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT. When it comes to the women’s stories, there are plenty of experiences on Youtube to confirm that these things happen to women over and over again in the “truth” and if you have really woken up like you say, then you would know that those experiences are believable.
I for one thought that Lloyd’s comment was a whole lot nicer than how your entire comment was calling into question Brie’s truthfulness and I was glad he said something to you because I thought your comment was really insulting to this young girl that took tons of courage to do what she did. Did you ever do anything to even compare?????
In my first comment to you, I was holding back because I wanted to reply just as Pickled Brain did but I wanted to give you the benefit of a doubt.
This is how you could have worded that comment of yours if you had doubts like you did and if you really did “believe” her like you claimed:
I loved her speech but Watchtower apologists will pick on it because she said “Jehovah Witnesses” instead of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (That would not have raised red flags to us like it did for me.
I had a hard time believing that you are a fader like you said because you sure sounded like a Watchtower apologist to me.)
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:20 pm
@Anonymous, I wish I had you around me when I need some words of wisdom. You nailed it. It’s not the question that was raised it’s the way in which it was written. Great point. My husband always tells me that same thing when I’m wondering why I have offended someone. That there was nothing wrong with what I said it’s the way that I deliver it at times. It’s probably because of my upbringing. I came from a large family of girls & we just said things how we saw it, I’ve had to become more ‘politically correct’ with my approach to people because I realised that they had a different upbringing to me.
We can all come across the wrong way with words on a monitor, that’s why I think face to face contact is so much better when it comes to sorting out differences.
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:24 pm
That’s where I admire Lloyd, he has put his face to his words. I hope that I can reach that point some day soon. I live in a very small community & I still have trouble going shopping & seeing Witnesses that I have known for last 20years & worry about the way that they view me. It’s pathetic but I’m trying to grow a spine & move to the next phase.
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:30 pm
Also, that’s why Brie is viewed so highly by people like me. So young & yet in an age bracket where you’re so self-conscious about everything. She has made me want to be open to people in my area about where I stand on matters instead of curtailing to the WT. That’s what makes me angry at this religion because I never used to be like this.
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Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 1:05 pm
Brie showed exceptional courage and intelligence in exposing the inner workings on being a JW youth.I meant to mention that earlier, but was caught up in all the flurry of comments. Isn’t it ironic that they train youths to be bold and courageous in the face of immense opposition only to have it backfire. I just love that…..
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:07 pm
J*L*C*R you may not like some of the responses you got to your opinions but at least your opinions made it to the point where people could read them.
I wrote a medium length comment that never made it to the point where it could be read. I will submit this and see if this makes it. By the way my comment complied with Cedars posting rules.
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:18 pm
Yew, the above comment made it. I wonder what happened to my other one. Did it somehow get lost in the system?
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:20 pm
It was meant to say “yes” not “yew”. How come all these comments are making it but not my original one?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:26 pm
Apparently, (I must be going into an alternate reality like Lloyd) when someone takes the neutral ground and states the simple fact that if a person makes a series of statements without meeting the appropriate burdens of proof; then they are by immediate default Watchtower Apologists.
EXAMPLE
…well the watchtower says one thing and another individual says another, this person is against the Watchtower; therefore, the standards of proof don’t apply. Let’s all agree with what’s being said despite a lack of evidence to support the argument… just because the person goes against the Watchtower.
Dare say… if anyone does not want to take either extreme viewpoint but tries to calmly examine the facts in front of them, as the arguer presented them… while maintaining neutrality from their personal feelings AGAINST the Watchtower… they must be watchtower apologists.
To not immediately accept any argument that highlights the evilness of the Watchtower is folly. (NOTE: The watchtower is evil…they destroy lives and families but to accept every story that arises without looking at the facts presented is foolishness)
Is it me, or I am the only one person that recognizes the universal fact for all intelligentsia; the BURDEN OF PROOF lies with the person making the argument. Brie made a good speech but until concrete facts are presented, I am not willing to believe her. I am also not willing to believe the Watchtower and Governing Body when they present an argument without proof.
When we listen to a scientist present a new theory, we expect him to bring FACTS to the discussion; not second and third hand stories. It makes for a great story but I don’t base my opinions off other people’s opinions and stories. That’s all Jehovah’s Witnesses do, base their opinions off the Governing Body’s opinions. Since I left the Watchtower, I base my opinions on FACTS.
All I am saying…and I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST…. is to believe someone’s argument, when no solid proof or facts have been presented, (other than THEIR WORD) is no different than believing in something the Governing Body has said. Neither has presented Evidence.
Why should we not carry the same standards of scrutiny to every side that arises? Not just the ones we like or agree with the most?
It’s like saying “J*L*C*R says that he is staying neutral until more facts arise and in the mean time he is refusing to go to either extreme of the argument…he must be an apologist. Grab your torch and pitchforks and destroy his comments with fire!”
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:14 pm
J*L*C*R, I don’t believe everything I hear or read either. If you are having a hard time thinking that such terrible abuse of women happens in the Society, Lloyd had 2 really good articles right on this web site under domestic abuse. Look on the right side near the top. One of the articles is called: Danmera Dinglebum Why did it take so long and the other article is called: Won Without a Word – At what Cost?
The Watchtower has had many many articles over the years about when a wife is being beaten that she is to be a “better wife” and then the man won’t beat on her. If you don’t believe it, you should go to those articles and read them first. Lloyd has many many places that you can go to Watchtower literature to back it up. Women have always been treated as “nothings” and you must be a man because if you were a woman, I think you would understand. It is hard for men to know what it feels like if it isn’t you being treated like a “nothing”.
When it comes to rape, there are multiple articles in the magazines and books and even the Young People Ask book that when someone is raped, that they will be called before a committee so that they can determine if it was fornication or not. There’s tons of articles on that too if you don’t believe it.
At least you came out and admitted you didn’t believe Brie. In your first comment, you said you did believe her, remember?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:50 pm
I do not believe Brie ONLY because there is not enough evidence to support what she has said in her argument.
I do believe in the Watchtower’s crimes against Women and the suppression of their rights. The reasons for this are two fold (1) I was born into a long line of JW’s my Grandmother became involved in 1939; both of my parents were Witnesses and raised me as one when I came along in 1993. I was then baptized in 2007 and have since become inactive. I know firsthand from myself and from my family; instances of physical, mental, and spiritual abuse on profound levels.
The second reason is because of the hard work Lloyd, and others have put forth in providing full proof articles on the topic. Just like the articles you have mentioned; ones with plenty of evidence to prove their point.
Just for the sake of clarity…the only reason I do not believe Brie, the person, is because I do not know her and therefore cannot simply take her word on something without proper documentation and/or proof to back up what she is saying.
I do believe in the Watchtower’s abuse on Women for previously stated reasons.
I hope this clears the water.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:57 pm
What parts of her speech did you not believe?
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:54 pm
J*L*C*R – nobody is accusing you of being an apologist merely for questioning Brie’s story – at least I’m not.
The accusation arises from your insistence on repeatedly driving home your disapproval of Brie’s story with an almost evangelical enthusiasm rather than simply stating your case and leaving it there for the record. You further fit the mold of apologist by creating discord from nowhere by accusing me of being oppressive and insulting merely for disagreeing with you, and first apologizing for being so thin-skinned before picking up the gauntlet once more when another poster rallies to your side. This “stirring” behavior is precisely what apologists do. The most devout Jehovah’s Witness can justify saying bad things about Watchtower while hiding behind a pseudonym on the internet, so I’m afraid making token statements of solidarity with our cause doesn’t let you off the hook.
If you don’t want to be suspected of being an apologist, please try to refrain from stirring up trouble and recoiling with disgust at the mildest provocation. I’m afraid I will have to ask you to regard that as a final warning.
And I can’t help but notice the irony of you complaining about the lack of veracity of Brie’s anecdotal evidence while regaling us all with your own unverifiable stories of “physical, mental, and spiritual abuse on profound levels.” Again, it seems to be one rule for you, another for everyone else.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:41 am
Last night I came to a realization that I would like to share with all of you.
Since Lloyd first posted this article and my subsequent comments, I have had so many sleepless nights. I couldn’t quite put a finger on what was bothering me but last night it hit me like a ton of bricks.
What bothered me so much about Brie’s story was the fact that it brought up so many memories and emotions that had long since been buried deep down.
My awakening from the Watchtower was a series of massive heartbreaking moments after the other. I have never experienced anything so traumatic in my entire life. It tore me down to my most exposed level of humanity and left me and my family with a feeling of abandonment and victimization.
Last night I faced all of these memories and as I think back; I feel as if a great weight has been lifted off of me.
Please understand that I was born and raised an ardent witness. Some of my earliest childhood memories are my family reading the “My Book of Bible Stories” I’m sure everyone remembers that hardback yellow book with the ruby red letters on the cover.
We all fervently believed in the paradise earth. Then to suddenly realize, what you’ve grown up with is a massive lie and a cult as well. It was awful.
I’m not ashamed to say this….
Last night I cried for myself, my parents, the promises and trust that was broken. Then I just cried.
One things I want to say is that this site has helped me in so many ways. The articles woke me up and now the comments section has allowed me to overcome a great crucible and become a better person as I finally put my past behind me.
I would like to thank the following for their helpful debates, kind words of encouragement and their frankness.
Anonymous
Pickled Brain
Grace
Lloyd Evans
I would like to apologize to you, Lloyd. I am sure you noticed my conflict with my comments. Please know that they came from a young man who was struggling to address what really bothered him. You can say my awakening process has left me damaged goods…I don’t know what to believe in anymore. I’m just not strong enough to go through anything like that a second time.
Most of all I would like to thank and apologize to Brie. If Brie is listening, please know that you helped a young man leave a self destructive path that would have left me going to a dark place of depression and worse.
Thank you all! I am sorry I made such a horse’s tail out of myself during this whole transition…just know that now I think I am a better person for it. Please accept my sincerest apologies and know that each of you have helped me take another step forward in healing.
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Cedars says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:05 am
Apology accepted. I hope you’re feeling more settled soon.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:18 am
Thank you, Lloyd. :)
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:09 am
J*L*C*R, I want to reach out through cyber space and give you a big hug!
Waking up from this cult is like going through the mourning of the the death of everything that was dear to us. If you have ever lost a cherished pet or a loved one, it is hard to live through that and losing your entire support system or “family” in the “truth”, is even worse than that. All we can do is be glad that we finally found out the real truth about the truth and didn’t die in the religion, like countless millions of people have already done.
Last year and the year before I also had a terrible experience in what I thought was the “truth” and in a way I am glad that it happened because it helped me to wake up or else I’d still be living in the Watchtower bubble. It was a hard pill to swallow that all the “love” that I thought I had was “nothing” as Brie said in her speech but I am actually happier than I ever was when I was going to meetings and in service and I think I knew in my heart of hearts that all the love in the Organization is conditional and I think I am worth more than that and so are you. We are all worth real friends, not fake friends that only “love” us if we jump through all the hoops to be “good enough for them”.
You can be so glad you didn’t waste your entire life in the religion like so many of us have done.
Be glad about that!!!
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:35 am
Thank you so much, anonymous! Your kind words of support really mean a lot to me. Thank you.
It’s nice to know that there are others who know what it’s like.
:)
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:49 am
Hang in there J*L*C*R, it gets better. We are all here to support each other. I don’t know how to make a smiley face but I am sending you a smiley face too!
danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:40 pm
Your words ring true to all former jw cult members. I lost over 30 years of my life to flim-flam men of the Tower.
I have been out for more than 30 years but the scars still fester. We do feel your pain.
Somehow I believe that when Brie reads your comments….all will be well and good. Thanks for expressions from the heart…
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Excelsior! says:
June 1, 2015 at 2:44 pm
JLCR,
Sir/Madam,
You do realise that this was a school assignment, don’t you?
Did you expect her to have court documents, or witness statements? This was not originally conceived of as a video.
This young lady was obviously upset, and so she fumbled the name of the religion, big deal!
Folks,
May I suggest to all of us to read our comments back BEFORE we post them? We need to think of how our words are going to be read by other people.
Lloyd does a great line in passive aggressive put downs. It’s part of his Northern heritage. It has ruffled quite a few feathers, but he does not deserve some of the vitriol that he has received.
Anything can be taken as an insult by somebody. Lloyd is not rude, he is merely sometimes brutally frank!
I hope that we can all learn to treat others with courtesy and try to all get along.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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danman says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:35 pm
Think maybe Gnashing did his job? A true hit and run hijacking of Brie’s thread.
He is the one that is laughing. Sorry Brie.
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Exhausted says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:38 pm
I am currently watching in the US a series on the Amish.
the shunning factor is too similar to the Jws. I think you
People are arguing over semantics that amount to nothing
But let us get back to the seriousness of family break-ups
And the pain of women who are treated like chattel. The
Loss of friends because of rules and regulations that amount to nothing. I Personally have a life in dreams only
And that is pathetic. I still love the friends I left behind,
But cannot allow myself to go back.
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:48 pm
“…………. before Mr Constante came riding in with his rebuke”
“…… another poster riding to his rescue.”
Not only has my name changed from ‘Charles’ to ‘Mr Constante’, but I appear to have learned equestrianism overnight. All while I was sleeping!!!
Lloyd, when I first starting reading this blog I cringed at some of the responses you made to “real” apologists. They were simply rude and arrogant (I don’t think that many of them deserved it – they are brainwashed like you and I were), but I got over it because I thought you were doing an amazing job of exposing this cult. I respect you for that. You say that you’re not a politician and not here to win a popularity contest, but when you’re dealing with other people a bit of sensitivity wouldn’t go astray. I just want to say that I won’t be posting anymore but will continue to read your articles with interest. Good luck with your mission.
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:39 pm
Thank you for your continued endorsement of my activism Charles. However, it seems beyond your comprehension that you are just as capable of making ill-advised comments and backing the wrong horse as anyone else, including me. I also can’t help but notice your willingness to quote me when I DO say something remotely incriminating, when curiously you weren’t so quick to quote me when you first began accusing me of being insulting merely for saying “You’re easily troubled” and “You’re easily insulted.”
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danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 6:52 am
Perhaps the administrator of this site would be so kind as to place comments in chronological order?
There are discussions going on about posts that no longer appear. Time stamps that do not reflect real time responses.
I hope Brie can overlook all this display of egotism and childish bickering, she did not deserve the above.
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Cedars says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:11 am
Hello Danman
Unfortunately the webmaster and I have busy lives outside of our activism, and the time to sort all the comments into chronological order where this doesn’t occur by default is a luxury neither of us have. I can only ask that you make the best of the situation, bearing in mind that this is a blog that people feel inclined to use as a discussion forum rather than vice versa.
Thank you in advance for your patience and understanding.
Lloyd
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danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 2:48 pm
A fluke is a fluke…no worries.
Seems as though any comments section directly following a ‘blog article’, by their very nature, should be presented in a chronological format, thus helping to reduce what has transpired here on your excellent ‘blog’ account of Brie’s triumph.
Maybe your default button needs a bit of tweaking? If not just ignore my ‘comment’. Thanks for responding.
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Lori says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:04 am
Sorry for what she went through, but how long could she have been a Jehovah’s Witness and seen these things, if she can’t even pronounce it right? Not “Jehovah Witness” (said several times)
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Lori says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:11 am
[Evangelical comment removed, see posting guidelines]
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Ted says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:21 am
To state that you believe a persons statement. Then in the
very next breath to claim you’re “Troubled” ,on some basis,
about the validity of their statement, is plainly contradictory.
It sound like, ( and I put it no stronger than that.). Someone
who mischievously tries to sully another persons reputation
by an oblique inference. A circumstance. I’m sure we’ve
all encountered many times.
We all have a right to doubt and to question, and it’s sound
practice to do so. But I think we need more than supposition,
that’s based on the flimsiest of reasons, before we cast
suspicion on another persons character.
Brie’s video seems absolutely authentic, to me. Obviously
for certain reasons it’s not wise to to give names and addresses.
And where the WTS, is concerned, documentary evidence,
is almost impossible , even for the law courts to get.
The experiences she relates, as to how some sisters were dealt
with. Accords well with how some body’s of elders would apply
the instructions in the “Shepherding the Flock of God” book.
Brie lifted my spirits, and it makes me sad to see doubts cast
on her integrity. By hairsplitting and unnecessary comments.
Reply
j brown says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:41 am
Anyone have the current youtube view count?
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Ohforgoodnesssake says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:34 pm
Well I just want to add to the earlier discussion. Brie did indeed use the word Jehovah Witness, and also she uses the word church. But I tell you what……….she really did the organisation down. I think anyone watching that video, will not be left in the slightest doubt, that JW’s are truly conditioned, and not in a good way. I don’t think her use of acceptable words for her audience will detract from her message.
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Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:49 pm
While we never referred to the KH as “church” within JW circles I would use that word in conversation for non-witnesses so they would understand what I was referring to. It was just so much easier to say “church” than have to explain why our weird religion demonizes words like church and insists on bizarre nomenclature. I think it made sense for Brie to use it, if she had used KH it would have distracted the audience from her other message.
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
avatar
Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
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Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
← Older Comments
Exhausted says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:40 pm
All my life, we called our meetings the hall, and really it was our church. I never referred to the Hall as anything else but…for the outsiders I did say my Church was the
Hall. All the workers and acquaintainces acknowledged
That. It is funny in retrospect how they somehow as
Drunk or as wierd as some of them were, they respected
Our lives, and called us do-rites. If They only knew the
Inner doubts and conlict that was there . If I helped any
One that is a coup. I on the other hand fell straight down
On my face. Always being the martyr. I Am tired. Do
Respect this little tiger for growling at the men we all feared and in so many ways. Bless you all…
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 3:22 am
Even though the Society wanted us all to think that the word church was a bad word, this is the mean from the Webster’s dictionary for church:
Church as a noun: l: a building for public and esp. Christian worship 2: the clergy or officialdom of a religious body 3: a body or organization of religious believers: as a: the whole body of Christians b: Denomination c: Congregation 4: a public divine worship 5: the clerical profession
Church as an adjective: 1: of or relating to a church 2: of or relating to the established church
Reply
Rosie says:
June 2, 2015 at 4:17 am
The use of “Church” was never used when I was in the Org. However that seems to have changed now. I was called upon recently by a pioneer sister who did not know who I was – she used “Church” several times during her presentation to me, and I am aware that this terminology to describe the KH has been said to others who have been witnessed to.
Reply
James Broughton says:
June 2, 2015 at 5:00 am
The Watchtower always used to use the word ‘religion’ in a bad sense but now seems to have softened its stance, or, at least, sees itself as the only true religion.
Reply
Ted says:
June 2, 2015 at 8:33 am
When my daughter was to be married at the K hall. She
managed to get it announced on national radio, and the
DJ pronounced the venue as the “Ringdom ” Hall.
Which I thought had a nice ring to it, and appropriate for
a wedding.
It crossed my mind at the time, how little was known about
JWs. The WT, articles were proclaiming how the worlds
attention was focussed on us. How we were a thorn in their
flesh and the governments of the world would be angry and
try to annihilate us.
It’s all so silly , how could I ever have believed it? However
even though they are insignificant, compared to their own
estimation, and the world doesn’t give a toss about them.
They are a life destroying cult, many times in a literal way.
So it’s good that more facts are being made known about
them, on sites like this and on You Tube. Brie’s video is a
great contribution to this end.
Reply
Elka Tire says:
June 2, 2015 at 12:06 pm
Hello,
You can get the spanish subtitles for this video in this path:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59436690/Sp-subtitles.rar
El Kato
Reply
Silent admirer says:
June 3, 2015 at 12:45 am
Great going Bree. It is because of people like you and Cedars we get the hope that our loved ones can be pulled out of this rabid cult. My cousin is trapped in this cult for the past 7 years. Considering this cult is a minuscule percent of my country’s population (India , 35K out of 1 billion) , this site has been immensely helpful in understanding JW’s for someone who is not from Christian background. Hope my cousin learns the truth about the Truth soon.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 3, 2015 at 6:42 am
@Silent Admirer . Nice comment & VALID point about only 35,000 JWs in India with population of 1 Billion . NEVER in a Billion years will those 35,000 give a Witness to everyone SO Jehovah will have to READ HEARTS of over 2 and Half Billion people come Armageddon . So WHY Doesnt Jehovah Bring ARMAGEDDON today & read everyone’s Heart, because IT Would SAVE a LOT OF HEARTBREAK & SUFFERING to All those who are MILLIONS DYING of MALNUTRITION ,WATER BORN DISEASES ,MALARIA,HEART DISEASE ,CANCERS,STROKES,WARS,EARTHQUAKES,TSUNAMIS,ETC !!!
SO WHY DOES JEHOVAH PERPETUATE SUFFERING as HE is GOING TO HAVE to READ HEARTS Anyway ????? SO WHY NOT READ THEM TODAY !! The LAST DAYS Have GONE on LONG ENOUGH !!! UNLESS the 607 bce to 1914 Ce interpretation is WRONG??? We ALL KNOW HUMAN GOVERNMENTS CANT RULE PROPERLY !!!
PERISH the THOUGHT …, COULD the 7 GB in Brooklyn be WRONG???!
Reply
Elka Tire says:
June 3, 2015 at 9:27 am
Cedar,
If you want to add the spanish subtitles you can download the file in:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59436690/Sp-subtitles.rar
El Kato
Reply
Exhausted says:
June 3, 2015 at 11:04 am
Just a while ago I heard a clip from a Fritz Springmier
Who did extensive research on the beginnings of the Society. It was mentioned by him that the Rothchilds
Funded Charles and as for the name Kingdom Hall, the
Hall part was from the Freemasons. It is just a thought
That sort of pulls the bloodlines together little by little.
Don’t quote me. I am just the messenger. A very tired one.Ha.
Reply
just asking says:
June 3, 2015 at 10:58 pm
Kingdom hell, hole, whole, hall, church or whatever, don’t worry abt them. I understand some are getting sold. Now that is what I call the good news of the kingdom. Then maybe be we could sale off the Jehovah witness brand. Maybe Tony should fire the rest of the F&DS doesn’t the Bible refer to a single slave? or were they 7? Didn’t the 7 fire the “remnant”? Well, I mean we don’t believe in the Trinity, why believe in a “sevenity”? It is all abt to come to an end.
Reply
Thinking of leaving says:
June 4, 2015 at 12:56 pm
I think watchtower needs more people like this standing up to them.
Reply
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith →
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
avatar
Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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191 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
Newer Comments →
X Leonhart says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:41 pm
It’s really disgusting to hear those parents words…
I have two daughters and nothing in this world could make me leave them alone, no matter what they could do, I’ll be there to help them.
It’s horrible to see how cruel and cynical this cult is…
Reply
DAC says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Exactly. How could a parent ever say that there would ever be a situation where “they wouldn’t be there for them”. Awful.
Reply
Erik says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:11 am
I know personally not all JW parents will or can follow this. I never considered it. An elder and his wife have moved in with their DA’d son. They moved a distance from their old community. They have no intention of not helping him, they consider his issues, and they also have no intention of missing out on their grand-daughter’s life! His mother did tell me privately that she knows other JWs have other ideas, and so she doesn’t share her viewpoint with everyone. But she must have felt safe to share it with me. I know of another mother who refused to shun while her DF’d son struggled with addiction, quietly doing what she felt Jesus would do.
Reply
awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:41 am
Yes, but therein lies the issue. Everyone knows a Jdub that doesn’t agree with one policy or another, but the fact is, they are doing it in defiance to what comes from the slave, and in effect, what comes from jehova.
My parents are stuck in that quagmire now. I haven’t Da’d myself, so we can keep playing that silly little loophole, but things are strained between us because I clearly want nothing to do with the org. As such, they really don’t have anything to say or do with me.
Considering this draconian black and white ,”us versus them” nonsense keeps getting plugged into their brains, it’s a wonder we’re even cordial.
Simple human decency dictates that shunning someone over a disagreement is wrong, but when their god keeps telling them to do so (Deut. 13:6-9), their hands are tied in the matter.
Reply
Ejay says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:45 pm
The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.
This should be a solemn, mournful thing. No one should be congratulated or encouraged.
And regardless of what their son did, should wanting renewed association be his primary reason for returning or should it be love for God?
The ‘Society’ seems not to care, just as long as you come back and can be another number in a yearbook.
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:55 pm
RE: “The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.”
I’m not so sure that the entire assembly audience comprehends what is said from the platform.
At one assembly I attended, the speaker read a list of figures which indicated increases in whatever the category was: Field service hours, books placed, newly baptized, congregation attendance, numbers of pioneers — whatever. A round of applause followed each increased number announced.
Then the brother read a number that showed a decrease in one category and a round of applause followed. I and several others sat there silent as thousand of people applauded the decreased number.
I’m guessing that many, if not most, of the assembly delegates are totally numbed by the continual boredom that they aren’t really comprehending anything that is said from the stage.
Reply
Swallowtail says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:52 pm
So it wasn’t the child’s love for Jehovah that sucked him/her back in, it was the love for the parents. Isn’t that missing the point? How can those parents and audience stand there and not see the failed logic in that approach? OH and even better, lets make the mom in her grief continue to push her emotions aside and push on in the ministry to get more people to shun. How sad.
Reply
awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:45 am
It’s never “love for jehova”. It’s never, “I missed giving talks and comments at the meeting.” In the end, it’s always “I couldn’t stand the loneliness and I just wanted my family back.”
When you’re in, they do a great job of instilling an insular mentality in your mind. So when you’re out, you’re nothing more than an island of one. You can’t make friends with “worldly people”, or trust them to any real extent. It’s really only a matter of time before you break down and come back.
Reply
Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Wow this is amazing. How can you shun your family I will never understand or agree with it. It’s happening to me personally and to hear them say it’s hard for them wow so disgusting. How about you choose to love your child and do what you know is right. It’s pretty obvious that shunning is wrong and damaging but they actually think that they are right wow pathetic. Figure it out how can you not see through the propaganda of the org honestly…
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I almost vomited after seeing this. We all know that watchtower denies a policy of shunning. The only good to come out of the video is that it proves there is a shunning policy. It is an “own goal ” by watchtower. The cat is out of the bag. Conditional love is not love. You don’t need to be a psychiatrist to see that their reasons for the vile act came from
mentally disturbed minds.
Reply
Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I was turned down twice in my judicial committee and the main thing they said was I was only doing it for my family and that wasn’t the right reason. So not ok for me but its ok for there kid…. Yeah so happy I’m chose to never go back to that cult !
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:05 pm
Sometimes I ask myself, how is possible that so many atrocities where committed in WWII? How is possible that the catholic church practiced the inquisition? I also ask myself how is possible that the jw.org is so potent in controlling people brains and behaviour to the point where parents shun family members for life. To even let children die for refusing a blood transfusion. Do they really believe those seven men are special? Come on! how can the JWs be so stupid and ignorant. These men are not special but the life of your son or daughter is special. If you inflict such a cruel punishment to a person it cannot be undone.
Jesus preached a message of freedom, where him alone is the master. Those seven lunatics enjoy having a superstar status and misinterpret the Christian message.
Your family members are a gift what the jw.orgs says is just guesses if not fabricated lies. Please JWs do some research and see yourself the amount of rubbish teaching these people have produced. Have you watched may jw tv broadcast and the amount of lies said by Mr Lett?
Reply
j brown says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:13 pm
I can’t get over how goofy daddy Sutton looks and much of a basket-case mommy Sutton comes across. And then to have these two on the convention program. Simply laughable!
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:43 pm
It is also amazing the fake image that they portray of themselves. They really know the best in propaganda techniques.
If you watch their videos it looks like everything is perfect, the love in the organisation seems abundant. Come on JWs! is that what you really experience in your local congregation? I constantly heard complains of old people being neglected. I can see from my experience that the kingdom halls are full of depressed people. Young people are mostly apathetic and without real aim. Their greatest satisfaction is standing hours next to a JW cart advertising non sense. Playing videos explaing 1914, come on, that’s a joke. Non intelligent people can believe such a teaching made of unrelated scriptures pasted together.
When they talk about cart preaching they say that the results are amazing. I live in a big city and never seen such amazing interest from people. The JWs seems like part of the city landscape, like traffic lights, buses.
My collegues never talk about them, nobody talks about them. But for them everything they do is historic, is amazing!
I will never understand their mentality!
The JWs are famous for portraying themselves the best people on earth and the rest the worst people on earth. That is a complete lie. They are like anybody else with a bit of delusion.
Do you think people are amazed knowing that JW parent shun people that make the adult decision to follow a different path in life?
Do you think people get interested in the Bible when they know the amount of false interpretations taught by the JWs?
Reply
Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:35 pm
@David,
So well put. Especially the fact that they will brag about how wonderful they are. Anyone knows that when someone has to spruce so much about themselves, there is something really lacking. A happy person doesn’t need to go around pronouncing how happy they are. A good person doesn’t need to tell people how good they are.
Reply
John Chapman says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:45 pm
‘a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Matthew 10:36
For the son despises his father. The daughter defies her mother. The daughter-in-law defies her mother-in-law. Your enemies are right in your own household! Micah 7:6
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:24 pm
What is the significance or relevance of those Bible verses, John Chapman? Merely rejecting JW twaddle should not be a cause for enmity. Disagreement about religious doctrine certainly caused wars in Christendom’s blood soaked past, and is the spur to the horrors committed today by ISIS, Boko Haram and others. But to make an enemy of your child simply because they do not go along with your religious notions is nothing short of obscene. Please explain why you have printed those Bible verses. What possible relevance do they have to this horrible story?
Reply
SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:46 pm
That is a really good video to circulate. It shows the pressure the organization puts on it’s members. I liked the part were the mom says “I told them if they ever left Jehovah I would have nothing to do with them.” Yup, because the organization IS God.
Reply
SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:15 pm
The dad says that he needed to step back and let Jehovah discipline his child. Since the organization = God he is saying to give up parental ties and let the organization at the child. If you substitute Watch Tower for every time they say Jehovah that video gets even creepier.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Lloyd,
Good read, and excellent exposure of this cruel practice. No natural affection, indeed. I would sooner die than do this to my kids. As of yet I have not been “discovered” by my family. As much as I’d like to spill the beans and try to bring them over, clear the air, I’m thinking I should stay a mystery after reading this.
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:10 pm
According to them even if you are a good person with good standards, values and perhaps still a believer you should be shunned for life. If this isn’t madness what it is?
Honestly having parents so stupid and blind is a misfortune. I am really sorry for these people because one day they’ll release how stupid they are.
They are ruining people lives and precious family bonds for blind religious fanaticism and extremism.
How would they feel if everybody shuns them? if they loose their jobs?
If somebody decides to follow God it must be a spontaneous and a free decision not dictated of shameful mafia tactics.
Honestly when you see these things is better to turn page, because these people are brainwashed and cannot understand common sense. They are like possessed. They just listen to their seven american false gods that are all busy with gigantic materialist projects mocking Christ example.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:32 pm
That video clearly shows that it wasn’t love for God or even the Organization that made that child come back “spiritually” but it was missed association with the family. How can those people be proud of that? You would think the first reason would be that he missed God if it really was the “truth”. I hope that kid gets himself reinstated and then stops going to meetings.
Hopefully when he gets a little older and can piece it all together in his mind, he will see that the love from his parents is conditional and shunning is nothing but blackmail and his parents are walking, talking, unfeeling brainless Watchtower zombies.
Reply
Dee says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:04 pm
I have to wonder if someone at Bethel asked them, no…told them, that they would give their experience and make an example of their shunning of their child. I hope it was difficult and awful and painful for them to do. It’s shameful and unchristian.
Reply
Darlene Alexander says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:05 pm
“I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there.”
Conditional love at its finest!! Why did that child return? To be with their Family – NOT with the religion. At least they are admitting to their emotional blackmail – it matters not that the child still may not ‘do Jehovah’s will’ – just that the blackmail WORKED! They are getting sicker and crazier every day.
Reply
Dblaron42 says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:11 pm
Where to begin? Wow. There is a TV show on PBS here in the states called ” Keeping Up Appearances”; and I think one of the most ironic things in my experiences with the Borg (via my ex-wife) was that my ex absolutely LOVED this show… it used to kill me that she did not see the correlation of this show to how the borg operate.
Thankfully I do not have to deal with their crap anymore… and I have made it abundantly clear to my daughter that I would never ever ever shun her because we have different beliefs. Sadly she cannot count on the same from her mom.
Reply
Mama Joy says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:30 pm
This sickens me….
Out of all the scriptures that states “Do not judge” or “show love” hundreds of times in bible ….. Yet, the JW’s pick one scripture that says something (when taken out of context) that states to get rid of your family. ……. So they take this one misused scripture to justify betraying their own children and casting them aside like the Samaritan woman. …… “Whoa to them that hurt these little children!”
Reply
Ted says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:11 pm
Is this why we bring children into the World ? To impose our
beliefs on them ? So denying them the right to develop their
own ideals, their own philosophy on life?
How self righteous to assert ones own beliefs are the only valid
ones. And how harsh, how brutish, to withdraw natural affection
and association until our children conform.
To use the love that exists between family members, as a weapon
to control is obscene. It’s a method familiar to fascists and
dictators.
Reply
Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.
Reply
Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:40 pm
@Susan,
Fantastic reasoning & using their own literature too. Love the comments on this.
Reply
alanv says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:54 am
Thanks for that comment Susan. It truly is amazing that the org condemn others for doing exactly what they do, except they do it even worse.
Reply
Karen says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:07 am
Perfectly said. Your point here is one of the things that contributed my awakening. Hopefully others are making note of this contradiction and starting to wake up as well.
Reply
J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:14 am
Susan what an awesome post. Can you site specifically the article in June 2013 you are referring to? That would be a big help! I’m having difficulty locating it. Thank you.
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Having watched the clip a second time I observed a few things missed after the first viewing. Those two watchtower automatons used coercion and hate in a twisted plot to recapture the kid. No one mentioned how the kid felt. That woman complained about how bad it was for her. How bitterly ironic it is when the man said they had a “fun night”. I would rather watch paint dry. I am not very articulate so please excuse the meandering. The kid was shunned because he was not toeing watchtower`s line. Hate rather than love was used to coerce the kid back. From watchtower`s rheumy eyes, the return should be to a fabricated entity known as a god. The kid did what it took to be reunited with his siblings and his progenitors. The entity was not in his equation to regain his loss. The kid will do just enough to stay within watchtower`s conduct parameters. I am bemused that there is not a great outcry aimed at the psychotic seven. Watchtower is more sinister and more dangerous than Jim Jones. This should chill peoples blood. As a very x jw I know what they are capable of. I believe that it will not end well.
Reply
withheld says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:08 pm
As a Jehovah Witness father with three young children I’m terrified about them becoming baptised. There is no way, or under any circumstances would I ever shun my children. And I know, I too would probably be disfellowshipped for this. I would love to leave this organization but there’s no way out. All of my family and friends are witnesses. I will do anything to keep my children from becoming baptised until they are of legal age and it’s their own choice.
Reply
danman says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:27 pm
So good to hear comments like “withheld”, I think there are many jw who are in similar thinking when it comes to child baptism. Your stand certainly is in more harmony with the scriptures. Jesus fully attained adulthood before baptism……what support does the GB have for haranguing jw parents to push their children into the baptismal pool? That is the real question.
Reply
Mara says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:34 pm
So infuriating when WT uses these experiences to try to prove that the emotional blackmail of shunning is loving and brings people back to the fold. For every person it brings back to WT, (for all the wrong reasons, I might add), there are probably 100 who avoid WT due to this sadistic practice. It was one of the very first things I finally had to admit was cruel and wrong…one of the main reasons I left the cult after 40 plus years! But they don’t feature experiences like mine on the program, do they!
Reply
Trish Karr says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:16 pm
Being raised in this cult I know exactly how they operate. Yes its called emotional blackmail where they teach their followers to cut their loved ones off should they leave the religion, and blackmail them to return back to the religion if they want to be loved by their families or loved ones! Feel free to watch my award winning Documentary which was made on the story of my life. I tell all. How I was raised in the Jehovahs Witness religion and left to create a life of my own. Im living proof its not too late to change your life because life is what you make it. You can see my film online its called “Witness my Journey from Jehovahs Witness to Australia’s Party Queen” hope you enjoy watching it. It may enlighten those that are finding life difficult since leaving the religion.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
Hi Trish,
Looks like when you left you not only threw the baby out with the bath water, but the entire kitchen sink too!
Can’t say I agree with your libidinous way of life or your moral abandon, but my thoughts are with you in your efforts to help those suffering from breast cancer.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:58 am
Hi everyone. There is another anonymous here. This is not the same anonymous above commenting as the one who comments often.
Reply
airborne says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:50 pm
What a cruel practice. Those parents are heartless.
Reply
steve says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:56 pm
Just wondering how this couple was “qualified” to work at Warwick when obviously not presiding over their household in a fine way? If their children are adults then what sacrifice have they made? If their children are underage then they shouldn’t qualify for extra privileges of sacred service.
Reply
jay says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:17 pm
if only things would change somehow and GB would allow reform then so many people wouldn’t be so messed up. I long to see the day when this organization changes and cleansed of its hypocrisy..
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:55 pm
In 1968, the 192 page book The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life was published by the Watchtower Society. Laying the ground for shunning appeared early on in chapter 3, paragraph 12 on page 16:
12. “As you examine God’s Word, you will learn that your love for God will be put to the test. There may be individuals, perhaps even close friends or relatives, who will not approve of your examining the Scriptures. (1 Peter 4:4; Matthew 10:36, 37) They may try to discourage you. They may do this in all sincerity, because they do not know the marvelous truths found in the Bible. Perhaps you can help them. In other cases the opposition may come from persons who have no love for God. If this should occur, remember, having God’s approval is far more important than having the approval of men. It is God, not man, who will give you eternal life if you love him above everyone and everything else. (Matthew 22: 37-39)”
Later on they add on more powerful scriptures, such as this one:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25-26).
Those who disagree with the Governing Body and those who try to save you from this cult must be shunned.
Reply
Kat says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:23 pm
How can they equate leaving an organization of false prophets to leaving God?
As if God would have anything to do with this organization of lying false prophets! they dump their own kids in exchange for following 7 deluded liars and false prophets. Sick
Reply
Andrew says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:01 am
It’s all so hypocritical really. My parents didnt want me around for 10 years after I left but when they got older and to the point where they needed me to care for them they changed their tune. And the elders were the ones who told them that the congregation was not in the position to help them as it doesn’t do aged care. This happened after my father was loudly trumpeting to one and all in hospital that the congregation would help them. When the elders got wind of this they told him to be quiet and let their socalled apostate son do all the work. Hypocrites really.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
I know of an elder that has given talks on how children should be responsible for their ageing or ill parents, but yet he doesn’t care for his own JW mother instead his mothers sisters husband cares for her and he has been inactive for over ten years, he feeds cares for her board free, I asked her why doesn’t your son care for you why should my brother have to financially support you, her answer he has three children and a wife to look after, yet my brother has his wife and son and works full time, and he is ill has had buy pass surgery, the elder Son of the mother is over twenty five yrs younger than my brother.
The hypocrisy stinks, and told this elder son exactly what I think of his hypocrisy, he just walked away.
Reply
mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:43 am
This is awful! I had just uploaded a video two days before expressing the hurt I have suffered from my parents doing this very thing to me.
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Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:22 am
mpm, I listened to your video and it does say exactly the same thing about your mother’s conditional love that the Society’s video of these two parents and how they looked at their son the very same way with only conditional love (not love but attention appearing to be love).
One of the very first things that new people are taught when they “study” the Bible with Witnesses is that they have to put God first in their lives, above all our relatives and friends. We were taught to do that but I was never under that much cult control that I could ever even think of saying such a despicable thing to one of my children as what your mother told to you.
It is so ironic in that Witnesses love to quote 2 Tim. 3:1-5 about how in the last days there would be critical times hard to deal with and one of those things depicting the last days would be having no natural affection and if any people perfectly depicts having no natural affection it is Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are the very epitome of having no natural affection.
Does the Society turn people into non-feeling, uncaring human beings or are non-feeling, uncaring people attracted to the Watchtower? Either way, they are non-feeling and uncaring and under cult mind control of a very evil Satanic organization.
People who are that controlled are capable of anything. They can be convinced that they are saving the lives of those disfellowshipped (or dance around like a chicken as under the hypnotic control of a hypnotist), but in the end, they are more convinced about the saving of their own lives at Armageddon than they are about saving the lives of their family and friends who have fallen away. It stands to reason (if a person is able to reason) that to shun a loved one just for not wanting to be a JW anymore, will only convince that other person more than anything that it truly is a non-Christian religion since Jesus taught love and forgiveness with the parable of the prodigal son.
The parents in this demonstration, show that they are arrogant and proud that they love the Organization more than their own children. In the Bible, arrogance and pride is not something that a God loves however. If these people were crying on stage, I might feel differently about them but they seemed very arrogant and proud to me. I don’t think that their children have any real feeling for them. I bet if you were to talk to their children, you might hear a very different story than the one they told on stage.
Reply
Tony says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:16 am
When 2 JW ladies showed up at my door about a month ago I told them how disgusted I am by their practice of shunning. One of them tried to justify it by comparing it to sending a child to their room. When I told them of people suffering PTSD as a result of shunning they left.
Reply
da' says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:27 am
@ Erik
There you go, perfectly said. Keep you mouth shut and your family is YOUR BUSINESS, especially when it comes to YOUR CHILDREN. People wont know or talk about what you havent revealed to them. You may also think confiding in a close friend will bring encouragement . Wrong , it only brings more drama .
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:45 am
mpm I viewed you video a couple of days ago, and really touched my heart, so sorry for what you are going through, and I love your work.
Reply
mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Hey Kat, thank you for the kind words. It was shocking to see this shunning video right after I had posted, so sad.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Going back jus to be with your family is a catch twenty two, you have your family but on the GB terms, and the agony of having to sit in every meeting while you just don’t agree is torment and one would feel like a hypocrite, its so sad, and it is emotional black mail.
Oh how I wish this religion would lose their charity status for this as its against human rights, and just maybe they would change.
This is what they print in the Awake for the public.
July 2009 Awake p29: “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.
Reply
sirius says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:57 am
A few points of curiosity. How often do children return to the fold after being shunned, and what is THAT success rate? Do shunned children tend to rebel more? Is love conditional in the JW (faith) or unconditional? And lastly, if I were to put on a catholic hat I would silently close the door(shun) on all JWs, Mormons, Seventh Advents and anyone else who claims to be Christian but denies the Deity of Christ, Apostolic Faith and brings another teaching of another Jesus?
The early church never practiced shunning of excommunicated members. So, if a shunned female was on the roadside with a flat tire not one JW would come to her aid? This is what I find cruel & unusual punishment in the mind set of the JWs!
IMHO
Dogstar
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:08 am
Interesting when I became a JW I was asked to write a letter to denounce my baptism of my former faith, I was never baptised even as a baby in another religion, so I didn’t have to but many did, including a few of my relatives that were later converted.
But none of my relatives ever shunned any of us, because we chose a different belief, they were to pleased and now I know why, but still they never shunned us or treated us badly, always invited for get togethers, tolerated our no birthdays and xmas.
But as JW we are told to shun our own flesh and blood if they chose to leave even if they don’t join another religion, even when they are children. Its a cult.
Reply
rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:22 am
every time Jehovah witnesses are coming to my mind, is like some one gives me knives and remind me the years I lost in this organization under the deceptive of influence. the middle ages is still here.
Reply
Michele says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:41 am
This makes me sick to my stomach. It just boggles me how parents can think emotional blackmail is loving. If a child only comes back to the “truth” because he misses his family, NOT because he actually believes in the religion, is a joke in itself. The mind control and endless indoctrination that convinces so called “loving parents” to behave this way is disgusting to me. I should know. I dealt with it for 5 years. The pain this causes to everyone is despicable.
Reply
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Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith →
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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191 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Melka says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:42 am
This is all on the Organization as far as I’m concerned. I know plenty of parents who are supposed to be shunning their kids, but still communicate, and I have even myself in the past thought they weren’t doing the right thing by talking and communicating with their children, since there was no reason to come back if they didn’t feel “alone” and punished. It’s so disgusting. But being a formerly brainwashed individual, I can understand. And you are honestly so worried about that person dying at Armageddon. It’s unfathomable that this is a trap just to keep you in so that they can get their money, and you’re not allowed to talk to that person who might have license to google “history of Jehovah’s Witnesses” or something like that. That’s not even the thing that woke me up, but once I did, I more than anything else was so disappointed in myself that I actually shunned people that I did love. Mrs. Sutton did love her child, even though he was DF’d, there’s no question in my mind. We just need to see the demise of the Organization. These poor people think they’re saving the lives of their loved ones, by shunning them. If her child stayed out of the organization, she would probably go to her grave worrying about how her child will die at Armageddon. They’re mentally captive, and it’s hard to get free.
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rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:51 am
The father: i am thinking where I was wrong? you don’t know where you when wrong? Is very simple. You and you wife teach your children the lies of the watchtower, and your children want to find out the truth, man The Hitler paranoid of inhumanity have contaminated the Jehovah’s witnesses brains. Nether he’s children have the right to examine the watchtower teachings in order to please seven man, and three stupid elders.
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sparlock says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:19 am
“Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.”
Thats exactly what i see in my mother. Her children didn’t become witnesses and she says beeing a pioneer is the only way to cope with this situation. She would rather kill herself than stop preaching 70 hours a month for the organization.
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Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:52 am
The parable of the “Prodigal Son” demolishes the shunning
practice. The son was not kept on a short leash, he was
allowed to follow his own inclination, even though it was a
bad decision.
The father imposed no conditions on the sons return. The
way back was always open. “No strings attached”.
When the son did return. There was no meeting of village
elders to determine repentance, or whether a period of
probation was necessary. There was no legalistic system
interfering in what was purely a family concern.
The father saw the son in the distance and ran to him and
embraced him, showing spontaneous unconditional love.
The son then acknowledged his error without any coercion.
The joyful reunion of father and son was not accomplished
by shunning, ( which often results in a permanent rift ).
But by “Unconditional love”.
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Pickled brain says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:25 am
@Ted . Your Comments are SO TRUE! The PRODIGAL SON is the WAY Jesus showed us how to treat Repentant Sinners…….INSTANT ASSOCIATION
NO JUDICIAL COMMITTEE of 3 ELDERS!!! NO ISOLATING the Repentant one for Maybe A YEAR or SO until 3 FALLIBLE ELDERS choose to Re-Instate the person or not!!! WE ARE ALL SINNERS & FALL SHORT of the Glory of God(Romans 3v23)
The PHARASAICAL 7 BROOKLYN GB MEN!!! GO Beyond ‘What is Written in Scripture’ & in Revelation that is Punishable with Death!!!(Rev.22v18,19)
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Rick says:
June 7, 2015 at 8:09 am
Very good way to look at it Ted, I’ve often thought the same whenever I hear the example of the prodigal son used. Also, the son was hungry and homeless so he came back to live with his dad to be able to enjoy what he had before. The dad didn’t think twice, his love for the son was big and unconditional. The JWs should really “read” into this story and apply it in their lives but as long as the brain cord is connected to the mother ship (WT) I see very little chance of changes.
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Anna says:
June 21, 2015 at 6:06 am
Lol I loved that. So long as his braincord was attached to the mother ship wt! Lol
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David says:
June 10, 2015 at 9:25 am
That is a great point. The son was away from his father not because of being shunned. The son departed and was way, but his father was ready to show him love in any way possible. He did not place any conditions upon the reinstatement of their relationship. For as much as JW’s like to use this parable, they completely ignore this important part of it.
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just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:45 am
I simply hate this organization, I really don’t know why I committed myself to it. I’ve grown up in this thing. they’re the only people know, they’re the ones who connect me to all my work. I would really wanna leave bt this whole disfellowshiping thing terrifies me. If I fade, all will know & will ask qns. I just don’t know.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 11:28 am
@just asking, when I stopped going to meetings (after 50 years) several asked me questions but didn’t want to know why I stopped going, except for one very nice person (not baptized but attended meetings) but most avoid me. Thank goodness, when she asked me why I quit, she assured me that she wouldn’t tell the elders and come to find out, she also hates the religion but didn’t have anybody else to confide in and when we got to talking, we shared a common belief that it’s a fraud. Her daughter who I studied with and was getting really involved, is fading also. My husband has told me that he hardly ever sees either of them anymore at the meetings (which makes me really happy).
If it’s any consolation, what are the Thursday night meetings like where you attend? If your Kingdom Hall is like I think most Kingdom Halls, there’s maybe half the attendance as when there’s a Circuit Overseer visiting. My husband said that last Thursday night, there was hardly anybody there and one of the elders gave a congregation needs talk which basically telling the congregation there was nothing to worry because they see the attendance being so low.
I had the courage to stop going and I think there’s a lot who force themselves to put their bodies in those seats because they are afraid of being stigmatized if they start missing meetings but you have to live your life your way. Don’t be a puppet to those people.
Don’t get to be 60 years old before realizing that there is no real love at the Kingdom Hall. It’s all conditional (which isn’t real love anyway). You don’t need that kind of love. We all deserve real friends and real love.
I personally wouldn’t write a letter of disassociation because in effect, you are saying that you are disfellowshipping them. It is all up to the person. If I disassociate myself, then I know that two of my children would be compelled to shun me and I don’t want them to have to go through that. If I didn’t care about anybody at the Hall, then I would write a letter of disassociation but I care too much about my children to do that to them and there are a bunch of really great people at my old Hall that I don’t want to do that too.
If you read Crisis of Conscience, you will see that there is no way that any God could be backing the Watchtower organization. It’s a fraud, passing itself off as a legitimate charity and sooner or later, the truth will come out and we will all be vindicated. It can’t go on forever. At least I hope I live long to see it collapse.
If you are young, please be your own person and don’t let that Organization control the rest of your life, just for fear of being disfellowshipped. There are real people out there who will be your friend and you will never find that in the Organization.
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Wanderer says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:15 am
@anonymous another fantastic post! There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love from JW’s!
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J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:26 pm
Outstanding comment Anonymous! You hit the nail on the head for a lot of people.
I got deep into the fading process when I started community college and became very active on campus. I enrolled right after high school, when most of my JW friends were pressuring me to pioneer. Needless to say that ruffled a-lot of feathers at the hall. It was not until the 2013 convention when I heard “any continued education is a temptation to ensnare yourself in Satan’s system, through bad association and etc; if you go to college you are a tool of the devil.”
I heard that and immediately walked out of the assembly hall, enough was enough. Three generations of my family gave their youth to the organization; I refuse to do the same. I was pressured into getting baptized at 14, that was a huge mistake.
Stay strong, having family involved is the worst part, I share your pain. Expressing myself here has helped me a lot, as you know. The healing process is long but it’s still one foot in front of the other. Know that you are not alone in your struggle.
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Observer says:
June 10, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Your true family will love you unconditionally
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Lee says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Great post, well done, I am fading too, and I refused to be visited by the elders.
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Queen Elsa says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:37 pm
I’m in the same situation… :( I think many are.
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kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:26 pm
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
– Frederick Douglass
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Shanti says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:27 am
There are many good articles available on the internet regarding the “Art of Fading”. Here is one.http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/leaving-the-watchtower-fading.php
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just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:54 am
How did I get myself into this trap?
Why did I bow to the pressure of getting baptised @ 13. One is better off a worldly man that a disfellowshiped jw.
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Finn Sawyer says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Because…like me you were only 13, and that says it all.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:30 pm
Same here… I was 14.
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Al says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:47 pm
It’s not your fault u were 13 how were u supposed to know. I was baptized at 12 with no understanding of the implications that would have later. I just quit going altogether 2 years ago and it is a total relief. So much anxiety every meeting and not feeling like you are doing enough gone!
I’m lucky though my family will still talk to me. I basically told them it wasn’t for me anymore but didn’t go into anymore detail and they left it at that. I thought about dissociating but that would result in my family shunning me since my dads an elder. So Im just inactive and am content with that. People in the hall will eventually give up trying to convince you, and you can start getting on with your life without interruption.
Sites like this one among others helped me to realize I am not the only one who went through this. Your not alone!
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ruth lee says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
hmm funnily enough i had a coversation with my children this week both not nbtzd pubs yet we discussed df a bit my boy cannot get his tender heart around this poor boy i will have to toughen the little blighter up! irony folks i took both my children in my arms and promised them no matter what they do i will never ever ever shun ignore or turn a cold shoulder to them until i draw my last dying breath thay are my wonderful gift from my creator so why would i ever trash that draw your own conclusions feeling a little stronger day by day
Reply
Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 1:05 pm
In this interview we have spelled out for us, the real reason,
why many disfellowshipped ones return.
The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to
return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
So it was affection for the family, not the religion, that motivated
his return. Now the Son is compelled to go through a
meaningless routine, just going through the motions of being a JW.
Not worshipping in Spirit and Truth.
The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting
cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no
worthwhile purpose.
Reply
Honza says:
June 10, 2015 at 5:22 am
yes, yes!
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kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:12 pm
“but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there”
It would seem to me they have an issue conflating God and Religion, when they are seperate entities.
Is it not possible to be close to God and reject religion? Because thats exactly what Jesus did.
It would seem the quote really meant, “if you do not follow the philosophies this organization has set, no matter how they may change…”
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Thetroof says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:25 pm
This org Is so cruel. I cant believe I fell for baptism at age 12. I was too young to understand anything
The GB is equal to Satan who can turn into an angel of light.
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Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:40 pm
Ted excellent post
“The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
“The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no worthwhile purpose.
Reply
J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:21 am
There are a number of excellent arguments being made here. I’m going to take the liberty of re-posting one in particular that necessitates repeating:
“Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.”
Thank you Susan! What specific article were you quoting from? Is it from the public or study article of WT magazine?
Reply
anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:04 am
@J Brown, that quote is from the June 2013 Awake article, entitled “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
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Jbrown says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:53 am
Thank you Anonymous. Found it! Wow just wow! I’ve heard of people who speak out both sides of their mouth. WT takes the cake on this!
A must read: June 2013 Awake “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
Reply
Innocent Son says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:56 am
So many excellent comments on this article.My brother who was a Elder at the time was completely broken when his eldest son rejected the ‘Truth’ He followed the Watchtowers’ instructions and disowned him.This gut -renching cruel practice contributed to his Mental Breakdown and demise.A parents’ love should be unconditional, just like the parable of the prodigal son…
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just asking says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:22 am
I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half are nt interested? Why can’t they just provide room for baptism cancellation especially for some of us who were minors at the time of baptism? I am in a meeting right now but all am listening to is nothing but rubbish. I even can’t believe I once believed this nonsense. THIS GONNA BE MY LAST ONE.
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:25 am
@just asking, when I became convinced of all the lies of the Society, I stopped cold turkey with going to meetings but it still took me quite a few months of worrying what if the Society is right about Armageddon?.
If a lot of people are like me, the meetings were boring and tedious and I had to force myself to go in service each month and I dreaded assemblies and I hated to think of all those friends at the assemblies who wouldn’t see my face there at meetings and assemblies. It was all those things that made me keep going.
Now that I see how completely what a fraud it is, I only pity all those who are still in that situation and can’t get out except to stop going to the meetings like I did and then have to go through what I am going through right now, knowing what the real “truth” is but not being able to tell them.
The thing is though, that we have no way of conversing with all those who are still going to the meetings to find out just how they feel. I would bet though that the scare of Armageddon is what keeps the majority going even though in their heart of hearts, they wonder if it’s all bunk and they are being made fools of?
That is why Lloyd’s idea this web site is simply genius!!!
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Alan says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:00 am
I can see a lot of parallels between the apostate shunning issue and the trials of the LGBT community. Being such a strong advocate (without exception) for human rights, I regard John Cedars as being something of a silent hero for this oppressed group, and I’m sure he, more than most, can relate to their experience of social isolation. As the recent developments with Bruce-now Caitlyn-Jenner have shown, there is still considerable resistance to enlightened human expression, and shunning must be recognised for what it is: a cynical weapon that is used to limit our freedoms. Let us all stand together on this issue, regardless of our sexuality, creed, colour, beliefs, etc. Take courage from Bruce’s decision to become Caitlyn, regardless of the hateful reaction of an increasingly small-minded minority. We shall win this war for the sake of all humanity. It’s our time now!
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Sarah says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Agree!
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rob says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:04 am
I knew so many individuals that got reinstated just for the ability to associate with their family and friends.
After their reinstatement most of them never went in service again and rarely attended meetings – but they got rid of the shunning.
This proves to me that reinstatement has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual guidance – just another crazy procedural and pharasiacal rule.
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danman says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:33 am
Just asking, asked:
“I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half aren’t interested?”
All because of one man Joseph Rutherford. A pompous self centered (charlatan) who considered himself appointed by Jehovah and the angels to interpret God’s Word (?) the bible. This man who enjoyed not one but two 16 cylinder Cadillac’s, fine silk shirts, a farm on Staten Island (my mother his personal maid), illegal beer and wine cellar during the prohibition, hundreds and thousands of then known Bible Students at his every beck and call. Then had the gual to build a mansion in San Diego and say it was built for David and other bible characters, who were coming back very soon. By the way, my father drove those caddies for him, and also carried a 45 Smith and Wesson automatic for da judges protection. My sister has the license to prove it in our family records.
This fellow is responsible for almost all of the jw doctrine still followed today. He ushered in fanatical stands on Christendom, neutrality, flag salute, no blood, no christmas, no birthdays, 144,000 vs ‘other sheep’, only organizational appointments of elders etc., and he personally cemented these teachings by making outlandish asserstions regarding ‘millions now living will never die’, ancient bible characters coming back to life on earth in 1925 and even after never gave up on it for several years thereafter.
He ruled with an iron fist, he was chief writer, chief editor, chief of all chiefs, my father said that the judge could tell someone to jump off the cliff, and that person would feel hard pressed to no do as he was told. Talk about strong personality, he had one and more. He personally mentored Knathan Knorr, Fred Franz (of 1975 fame), Milton Henchel, and other neophytes who were to take over the helm upon this charlatan’s death in 1942.
The answer to your question imo is simple, it is men who have accepted other men as representatives for God himself. These people actually convince themselves that even when the utterances of these self proclaimed men of God are proven absolute garbage, with no evidence or even semblance of accuracy, the errors were allowed by Jehovah God…..so that future arrogant self appointed men of god can correct the errors (by new light) of the old former men of god. Get it?
Belief in any interpretation of the bible message is in and of itself giving full trust in man. Because you cannot point to any religious doctrine, policy, rule, or pronouncement, that does not somewhere sometime originate from a man or group of men. Right?
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:04 pm
Do not worry, Jehovah’s Witnesses (including those parents) are imitators of their god Jehovah when it comes to coercing people who courageously reject his/her dictatorship.
(Amos 7:17) . . .this is what Jehovah says: “Your wife will become a prostitute in the city, and your sons and your daughters will fall by the sword. Your land will be apportioned out with a measuring line, and you yourself will die in an unclean land; and Israel will surely go into exile from its land.”’”
You see, they resemble their god!!
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Alex says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:13 pm
The fact that this practice of shunning is encouraged by the WTBTS, of which I am also a victim too indicates so strongly to me that this organisation in Britain needs to be investigated fully by the Charity Commission and put to task to.prove how it benefits the community by actively encouraging the tearing apart of families, the foundation of any community. It needs to be stripped of its charity status, and its tax free position and exposed for what this mind numbing cult is: A dictatorial, ruthless and self absorbed movement out to destroy lives, spiritually, psychologically and in some cases physically. It has to go!!!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:33 am
Alex,
Have you complained to the Charity Commission about shunning yet?
If not, I strongly urge you to do so. You can complain online!
I encourage all of us Brits to do so if we have not already!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
BeenMisead says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:18 pm
I hate the expression in the “The Truth”.
Here’s why:
Was it true when Rutherford said in 1919?:
O “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.”
O “Armageddon is coming in 1925.”
O “Abraham, Moses and other notable men of faith would be resurrected in 1925.”
Was it true in 1969 when Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz said?:
O “If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things.”
O “Armageddon is coming on or around 1975.”
O “The generation of 1914 will not pass away until the end comes.”
O “In the 1980’s they said: The end would come before the end of the 20th Century.”
—————————————————
All of the above was NOT true!! So if anything it should be called “The Falsehood”!!
Reply
Anna says:
June 21, 2015 at 6:37 am
Knowing all this now I would never have joined them. Only found it all out via internet since February this year after three years of attending and slogging my guts out.John cedars has saved me from having a breakdown and showing me I got brains by waking up.love to you all.
Reply
Misha Anouk says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:42 pm
I found this video especially hard to watch as I imagine my parents would say the exact same thing. This organization is getting more and more gross by the minute.
On another note: Is this the same guy who has been featured on the monthly broadcast?
Reply
Sarah says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:48 pm
Oh wow. I can almost guarantee they use my parents for this part. Either that or they will have to sit there ashamed and crying. I’m not sure which hurts worse.
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:15 pm
@Sarah, I can’t think of anything that could hurt worse than having your parents ashamed of you just because you don’t share their religious views.
No matter how good a person you are or what you have accomplished in life, you are nothing to your parents if you don’t share their religion.
A person can divorce a cruel mate and go on with your life, but everyone needs a parent’s love. What young person can afford a therapist when they are being blackmailed into faking a belief in their parent’s religion just so they can stay in their parent’s good graces?
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Sarah says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:49 pm
Thankyou for those thoughts:( I sometimes feel like people are starting to expect me to move on. But I will never get over the rejection from my parents, sisters and brother. I know that.
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anonymous says:
June 9, 2015 at 7:07 am
Sarah, this is a really good video for all of us experiencing Watchtower abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IshP0WONWqI
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ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 7:30 pm
It’s interesting how the Watchtower Society has presented two opposing views on how to deal with children who have gone wrong. Contrast this assembly shunning experience with the video in the link below, where no shunning occurred.
In the Watchtower video “The Prodigal Returns”, we are presented with an upper-middle class family in which two brothers work with their father in a construction business. The family constantly dwells on pleasing Jehovah by spending every possible moment in personal study, attending meetings and going out in field service.
Then, the younger brother decides to pursue a worldly career and his older brother (who would have made a great Nazi) tries to shame his little brother into giving up this idea. The little brother leaves home, goes to the big city and ends up wallowing in sin and degradation.
Once the younger brother realizes his mistake, he returns home to the open arms of his parents and his congregation. All is forgiven — except by the older brother who feels resentment because his father has lavished affection on the younger brother who sinned and ignored the older brother’s total submission to Watchtower proclamations.
Finally, the family in the video, who did not shun their child, is reunited and they all live happily ever after — just like the assembly family who did shun their child. Now we have two Watchtower approved methods which can be used to bring prodigals back into the fold.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/prodigal-son-returns/#?insightsearch_id=0364613b-4340-4aec-90a7-193f31ddf17d&insightsearch_result_index=0
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John Baptist says:
June 7, 2015 at 9:03 pm
What a Joke these people have come really completely delusional. And when you become that way then you become psychotic in nature eventually. Your living in a altered reality without any regard for your actions upon your own flesh and blood. These are mentally sick people devoting their life to men and not the God of the bible
Reply
Vivian says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:33 pm
What do you all think? Are the seven guys making the calls in NY simply indoctrinated coupled with not very thoughtful and thorough in their reflections or are they completely aware of the farce they have continued? Are they simply models and heirs of indoctrination trying to save people and their families from armageddon? Do they truly and honestly believe they are being moved along and used by a god? I would think that before I could believe my actions and thoughts were being inspired by god I would have to be clearly and completely mentally sick. But, indoctrination is a very strong strong force. I cant decide. In the lightest brightest terms i would call the men “irresponsible” and “thoughtless” and at worst, “monsters” and disgusting immoral garbage.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:51 am
@Vivian, my personal opinion is that Lett thinks he is in the “truth” because of the way he gestures when he gives his speeches. It’s like he’s using every point on the speech counsel slip that we got at the Ministry School when we were giving talks and being counseled but the others don’t seem to care about gestures etc. I think if Lett realized he was caught up in a huge scam, he wouldn’t care about getting G’s on his speech counsel slip.
When Losch gives his talks, he reads them and he is always referencing the Watchtower and rarely references the Bible. He says it like this: “The Watchtower says this and the Watchtower says that”. I think Losch is not stupid and realizes it’s a scam but doesn’t know how to disillusion 8 million people with coming out and telling the truth and basically destroying all their hopes and dreams and admitting to the world that they had devoted their lives to nothing and even lost lives due to blood. If that is what has happened to these men, then to me, that would have to be the worst position to be in because it would mean that they really do have a conscience but are caught in a trap they can’t get out of.
David Splane I think knows it is a scam and doesn’t know how to escape. When he gives talks, he seems like he’s in some kind of agony with worry written all over his face.
Sam Herd (with his gold watches) seems to me to know it’s a scam but will take it if it means power and prestige and doesn’t care about the rank and file.
The rest, it seems like to me, are like non thinking ostriches with their heads buried in the sand rather than face reality (big bodies and small brains).
My old Kingdom Hall is full of ostriches and I was one of them until about a year ago so I know how it happens. It happened to the best of us.
If I had a conscience and had any doubts at all and I was one of the Governing Body members, I’d be so torn, that I don’t know how I could live through it without quitting like Ray Franz did.
That is what makes me wonder if they have consciences or not or are just so worried about what it would do to 8 million people to find out it is all a scam.
Maybe they can’t even tell their own wives about any of their doubts because they are too afraid to. They can’t confide in anybody either, just like the rest of us can’t.
I can’t think of a more hideous situation to be put into.
Reply
Vivian says:
June 9, 2015 at 9:09 pm
Yes i agree it would be a terrible place to be in if you began to doubt/ saw the facade once you were at the top. If they were to topple the organization, dismantle it, what would happen to all these older ones that have given their lives and hopes and futures to the org. Some bad stuff would happen.
Reply
Mike says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:40 pm
Hello Lloyd I hope you don’t mind me using your first name.
If you haven’t (which I doubt) have a read of Ray Franz
In Search of Christian Freedom, Ch10 Sheperds of the Flock and Ch11 The Misuse of Disfellowshipping I recommend it to everybody who read your last blog.
Thank you for this site and your courage.
Mike Sydney Australia
Reply
Silent admirer says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:00 am
This is the idiot organization my cousin seeks to follow. To what levels of depravity these JW’s have to go to for him to open his eyes. Curiously he has never considered that by his own standards , his father should have called my cousin apostate(He is Hindu) and kicked my cousin out of his life.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:37 am
Thank you for the latest post/video and all of the work that you do, Cedars. This is a painful and difficult subject and you are adept at handling such with honesty, insight, and compassion.
There have already been many beautiful and heartfelt comments posted. Not much I can add but one perspective:
As a person who was disfellowshipped, I felt for many years the guilt and shame borne out of the belief that my family and Organization had the “moral high ground”. I no longer hold to that illusion and neither should anyone else out there who has been kicked out (or walked out), shunned, rejected, and discarded.
One important thing to note is that the people in this video, like many other JWs (including my family), are not basing this decision (and other decisions) on an evaluation of moral tenets but in following orders of their religion and leaders. They have been indoctrinated to relinquish their ability to think for themselves and instead of exercising their moral agency they simply fall back to “just following orders”. This, arguably, is an amoral stance. Part of me has some compassion for them. But, history will not be as kind. Modern society has come to understand that “just following orders” is indefensible.
I noticed a number of posts by people who stay in so as to avoid being shunned. My heart goes out to all of them. I cannot and will not speak for them or their circumstances but, as for me, I no longer feel compelled to hold on to my family. In 30 years, the only time they contacted me is when they wanted money or something else. Their love is conditional. Their currency is shame and guilt. They happily and mindlessly adhere to the rules and use love as leverage. I have no need of that and, frankly, I refuse to negotiate with extortionists. What I gave up I have more than gained. There are better people just about everywhere else.
Reply
Beige DelFuego says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:44 pm
My family,well,the ones left in the cult,are cherry pickers as well.They pick and choose which parts of the bible suits them at any particular time.Incredibly greedy and parasitic,none of them have real jobs,they just wait till a family member dies,and then they go to court to see what they can get.Often times,the more immediate family members of the deceased,are still in shock about the death,and are not really even willing to fight.Therefore,its a win for the vultures.
Reply
DAC says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:19 pm
To StrongHaiku,
That was an incredible post. Couldn’t have said it better.
Reply
gameisover says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:48 am
And what about kids that completely shun their elderly parents?
That’s even more pathetic.
That is what is happening to us.
I feel sure even those from ISIS don’t do that t their parents or to their children.
THis is truly an evil cult masquerading for the true religion.
Reply
James Broughton says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:16 am
Gameisover is correct. An evil cult masquerading for the true religion. The only ones who can’t see that are the JWs themselves. But there is hope. Many of us were there once and we came through!!!
Reply
just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:23 am
JF Rutherford put it right when he referred to his “religion as a racket & a snare”
Reply
Christian Sparlock Freedom says:
June 8, 2015 at 10:50 am
Great Article
Reply
just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 12:03 pm
Recently an elder called me asking for a report because the Co was coming. I asked him if that is all he cares abt, a report not the reporter. I had not appeared for some time at the meetings. I told him, He just made me realise that they really loved me.
He laughed, I knew he’d not understood me. I hung up. He immediately called back still asking for the report & explained how it was important to update my card before the co visit. I told him I never preached. He then told me to get serious. I told him I loved him & feel the love.
What am saying is that nobody cares abt your wellbeing @ the kh, all they care abt is how active you’re in their activities.
Reply
M Saurus says:
June 9, 2015 at 9:13 am
Same thing happened to our family about 3 years ago right when we started to fade. An elder called us to get our time since we hadn’t turned it in for several months (we hadn’t preached, and had been to maybe 2-3 meetings in several months). The CO was coming that week. We told him we had no time to turn in. He said he’d put us down for an hour for each month – surely we’d mentioned the truth to someone – we said no we had not – not sure what he did – but he would rather lie about our time than ask us what our issues were.
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 8, 2015 at 12:43 pm
I just brought myself to watch the video while trying to be as objective as possible about what was being said. All i can say is the demonstration was totally scripted and staged and not from the heart. mmmm i wonder why DuH! Those parents should be ashamed of themselves and put in a mental institution for the atrocities they have brought upon their children.
Stepford brainwashed people. Im happy the son rebelled and its only a matter of time when he gets stronger and smarter and leaves for GOOD!
Reply
Beige DelFuego says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:40 pm
So,please help me to understand.The children are taught to think,they go out and see the world,and when they come up with ideas that vary from their parent’s religion,they are shunned? Not able to speak to the rest of the family that is still in the church?How is this love?What is the incentive to ‘come back to the fold”? Its blackmail,isnt it?
Reply
anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 3:37 pm
@Beige Delfuego, JW kids are not taught to think. They are taught to believe JW dogma and only JW dogma and if they do start to think and start wanting solid evidence like how do we prove that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 586-587 B.C.E., they will be told to “wait on Jehovah” and if the Society is wrong that the Society will change the doctrine that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.
The problem is that the Society has been proven wrong in many areas and since those teachings are essential to the religion living or dying, the Society will never change those core beliefs.
If a child gets baptized (shamed into it, if they don’t want to do it on their own at a very early age), then once they start to question core beliefs and want solid answers after being baptized (which they won’t get any answers that make any sense because those core beliefs are all man-made doctrines and not Bible based) the child has to make a decision: Either stay in the religion and go along to get along or start wanting answers (which they won’t get and told to “wait on Jehovah and finally realizing they have been scammed) or fade (considered weak and bad association but can still be talked to) or disassociate (write a letter which then determines that they are disfellowshippng themselves and shunned as bad association).
No matter how you slice it, children are coerced and tricked into getting baptized at an early age and can only associate with other Witness kids while they are under their parents’ roof so they aren’t allowed to make friends outside of the religion and so when they leave the religion and they have been baptized, they face a life of being shunned. Children or even adult Bible studies are never told anything except what the Watchtower wants them to see so they never hear anything else except good things about the JW religion and never anything bad. The Watchtower counts on children and any Bible study being ignorant about the Bible and they are all ignorant about the real history of the Watchtower organization before getting baptized.
Nobody in the religion is allowed to go onto so-called “apostate” web sites or read any literature that is critical of the Society. If they do read literature or do go onto “apostate” web sites and find out about all the lies and cover-ups, they are not allowed to tell anybody about it (even people outside the religion) or they will be called before a committee and disfellowshipped for apostasy if it has been found out what they talked about it to anybody.
What the Society will tell the person is that they brought “reproach” on Jehovah but what they really mean is that they cast dispersions on the Watchtower religion.
The Witnesses have been led to believe that God is the Organization and speaks through the organization and that if they do anything to make the Society look bad that they are bringing reproach on God, which is like the worst sin of all because they really do believe that God is directing the Organization.
All people who study with Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught early on that God owns them and own the world and made their life possible and they owe their life to God and so whatever God asks of them, they have to do and that includes putting God first in their lives. Bible studies are told early on that God comes before family members and friends.
If they had any friends before becoming a Witness, they are told that those old friends and relatives will want them to disown the religion and persecute them until they stop “studying” and Satan is using those people to draw them away from the “truth” and so paranoia sets in right away and so they either disown all their old friends and relatives, or bring them into the “truth” too so that they can all live together and live through Armageddon together into the “new world”.
If Witnesses don’t try and “witness” to all those old friends and relatives, then the Witness is made to feel guilty that they don’t care enough about those people to witness to them and so that is why some Witnesses make pests of themselves at any get together they may have with relatives or friends. They actually think if they don’t “witness” to those people that they are signing their death warrants at Armageddon.
Most Witnesses think that and it takes months and months of being out of the religion before those feelings go away but it’s web sites like this is what helps people to realize that those fears of Armageddon is no different than any other religion that uses the fear of being burned in hell is what keeps most people belonging to other religions as well. It’s either the fear of burning in hell or being killed at Armageddon. It’s just a evil cult tactic to keep people tied to a certain religion.
Reply
Jonathan Drake says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:57 pm
I have always found it telling (while a believer I found it strange) how the shunning practice is supposed to work.
Why do they return to jehovah? Is it because they love him? No. Is it because they love the organization? No. The bible? No. Is it even because they learn their lesson? No. It’s because they miss their family! They even freely admit this is the reason and they never seem to notice that this in no way is an indicator that they learned any lesson or changed anything for any “good” reason. They just missed their family.
Or would think this fact being freely admitted in front of thousands at a time would cause some sort of dissonance.
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:27 am
Just the fact that they only miss their family is the reason they come back should tell you in the first place that they really don’t care about the religion to begin with. Many have gone stealth and faded out and some avoid being tracked down by the elder police so as not to be disfellowshipped. I have heard of cases of elders disfellowshipping individuals just on hearsay without them ever being present at a judicial meeting. You don’t even have to say anything. These higher ups will do what they want and how they want irregardless of what the Bible really says. They are Grandmasters at being illusionists.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 9, 2015 at 2:55 am
There is something really odd about Brenda Sutton in the video. If you maximize the screen and just watch her eyes, she seems scared of her husband or else very insecure about herself the way she keeps looking up at him and fiddling with her notes and he never looks at her at all. He seems proud of himself but not his wife. I see a woman who isn’t happy with her life at all.
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:36 am
Spot on observation about the wife. They were both very nervous trying to deliver their not from the heart experience but rather a scripted demonstration. Hopefully one day they may look back when it all falls apart for them and they wake up and realize what a fool they made of themselves in this video. If she was my wife I might not look at her much either. Not a very secure person for sure. They may love their child but obviously in a limited capacity if you are willing to give it up for a manmade religion to begin with.
Reply
Nemorino says:
June 9, 2015 at 5:59 am
It’s exactly this kind of exposure, to the media and the uninitiated public, of material intended solely for an uncritical, worshipful audience will ultimately prove their undoing. What’s being said and practiced in the darkened corners of Watchtowerland is dragged into the blinding glare of daylight.
Then too, one can’t help but wonder how one who cynically suppresses his misgivings and succumbs to the humiliation and grovelling required for readmittance, cannot bitterly resent (1) the family that insists on it; and (2) the elders and the organization that subject him/her to the humiliation of running their gauntlet of harsh scrutiny.
Reply
Chris Legnetti says:
June 9, 2015 at 11:24 am
I was baptized in 1987. I thought at one time there was true Christ like love in the congregations, but it was a dillusion
I thought real friends could be made in the congregation but that too was false
I was having a very hard time paying my gas bill & my apt was 28 degrees inside & outside minus -17. The elders knew I was freezing & you would think someone would try to assist financially within the congregation even take up a collection & I would pay it back NO!!
A wonderful friend of mine Terry Riley paid my bill in full & yes I paid him back & he’s not from the congregation
So where’s the love in the congregation ??????
Reply
J*L*C*R says:
June 9, 2015 at 1:25 pm
Lets hope front-line news gets this story and airs it on international TV.
Reply
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2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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191 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Spiritualbrother says:
June 9, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Quite an evil cult.
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RC says:
June 10, 2015 at 2:02 am
Hi ,
Have got the following books :-
1) Captives of a concept
2) Raymond Franz’s (Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom)
3) The Gentile Times Reconsidered
4) Steve Hassan’s (Freedom of Mind and Combatting Mind Control)
Is there any other books which is required reading for helping our loved ones get out of this evil cult. Please suggest.
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anonymous says:
June 10, 2015 at 2:54 am
@RC, another good one is “The Armageddon Cult” by Daniel LeEarl Hall and I liked “The Four Presidents of the Watchtower Society” by Edmond C. Gruss and also “Apocalypse Delayed” by M. James Penton.
Crisis of Conscience was my favorite followed by In Search of Christian Freedom but The Gentile Times Reconsidered is really good too. The thing that I like about The Gentile Reconsidered is how he shows from 17 different ways, how 607 can be disproved and that the Society even admits in one the Society’s own publications that there is no evidence for 607 but they are waiting for it to happen some day to prove that they were right after all. Also, it shows how unchristian and dishonest the Society is when they disfellowshipped Mr. Jonsson when he proved the Society wrong about 607 to keep him quiet. Doing that to that man, was the lowest of the low and it shows that they will resort to throwing even the most honest and sincere Witness under the bus and destroy their reputation to save their own skins and their publishing and real estate empire. Doing that alone to that man, should be enough of a reason why any honest Witness should take a stand against the Society and never attend another meeting until those men on the Governing Body grovel at the feet of 8 million Witnesses, begging for their forgiveness for what they have done to them.
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RC says:
June 12, 2015 at 10:30 pm
Hi anonymous,
Thanks . Will check out the new books as well.
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Ken says:
June 12, 2015 at 7:47 pm
Nice summary of books.
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David says:
June 10, 2015 at 9:33 am
I never realized that the WTBTS was soo secretive about its shunning practices. After an episode of JWPodcast where it was mentioned how they deny it I dug around the jw.org site and noticed how they mention things like “people are free to leave” and are very vague about something that every rank in file JW knows is hanging over them like a guillotine should they stray away and break the rules.
Even the way its presented in this video, the speaker as the representative of the Society did not specifically make any mention of the shunning, the parents are directed to express what “helped” bring their child back into the fold. The mom finally says that she told them “I will not be there”, and all I can see is the reactions in the crowds of people nodding their heads in agreement and approval.
They don’t have to outright say it anymore because its been soo ingrained that every JW knows what she is saying. Its incredibly insidious and evil.
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Fedup says:
June 10, 2015 at 10:46 am
People are waking up from the truth! Guess this will be a common practice now … optimizing. :-)
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-09/sale-of-jehovah-witnesses-halls-an-expansion-plan/6533544
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anonymous says:
June 10, 2015 at 12:55 pm
@Fedup, they could sell 90% of all the Kingdom Halls and the rest still in the cult would still believe it’s the “truth” because, after all, didn’t the Society predict that “the love of the greater number would cool off?” The Society are experts at cult mind control and it’s so sad. If 90% of all the Witnesses fell away, the 10% would be prouder than ever of themselves.
I am glad I am not one of those fools who may experience the downfall last when all those around them could see the writing on the wall and got out when when the gettin’ was good. Right now, they are all still riding on an arrogant high.
Someday, they will look back and remember how stupid they were. That is what I am doing right now.
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Mac says:
June 12, 2015 at 12:58 pm
Anonymous, I very much enjoy reading your comments. You present cohesive thought out arguments. Sometimes I have noticed that you look back at the years spent in service to the organization as a waste. I can understand as I feel I have lost valuable time myself. But your life experience gives you a great amount of credibility, you really know the inner workings and subtleties of this organization. I thank you for your valuable insight. There are some excellent comments on this post, thanks to all the contributors and to Lloyd for providing this service.
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anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 4:46 am
@Mac, thank you for saying that!!
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Kat says:
June 10, 2015 at 11:05 am
David they lie to the public about shunning.
“A spokesman for the church in Australia, Sydney solicitor Vincent Toole, dismissed the allegations and said shunning was a”myth.”
http://www.smh.com.au/national/jehovahs-witnesses-a-cruel-cult-20130315-2g5x3.html
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Observer says:
June 10, 2015 at 12:29 pm
I was raised a Jw along with my two sisters in the 70s. I have proof from long ago up until now they shun family members of all ages . This is very sad. My mother is the only one still a Jw. My dad never was he died in Jan and mom just won’t let go of this cult that has controlled her for 50 years.
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Andres Torres says:
June 10, 2015 at 3:57 pm
Wasn’t this a youtube video? Looks like the original was taken down in only two days. Amazing!
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Exhausted says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:09 am
Anonymous….AMEN.
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Barb Moor says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:54 am
I’ll bet “Family Fun Night” at their house sucked big-time. These people are robotic. As Cedars said, it’s all about them and their suffering.
One thing that intrigues me, over and over, is that they feel this discipline is DIRECT from Jehovah and don’t accept that it’s often slanted/ignorant/biased/bored/hateful elders that dole out this punishment. Yikes.
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anonymous says:
June 11, 2015 at 7:24 am
Barb, I can’t imagine how much fun that “fun” night was with those parents. They did everything “right” in their eyes by going to all the meetings together, having their weekly Bible study with the kids and going in service together and then they “scheduled” a family night together that was supposed to be fun. Their life sounds like it was so structured like it was a blue print they were following.
The mom also says she kept up her pioneering so that basically was a full-time job for her. With any full time job for a woman, means that when she gets home, she’s got another 3 hours of homework to get done every night. So, what time did these people have for a close relationship with their kids?
To them, scheduling a “fun” night with their kids was supposed to keep this kid protected from outside “bad” influence for the rest of his lie and from getting a job that “led” to his getting disfellowshipped.
What did his getting a job have to do with their training anyway? Obviously, the kid was out of the house by that time because they said they didn’t have anything to do with him anymore and that wouldn’t have been possible if he still lived in the same house, or else they kicked him out of the house when he got disfellowshipped.
If they kicked him out of the house, that would have looked ever more cruel than how they treated him in the demonstration and I have a sneaking suspicion that is what happened but they had to leave it out just in case “apostates” would have taken that and run with it.
If the kid was out of the house and living on his own, then why in the world, would they have wondered what they did “wrong”. Once a kid is out and on his own, their job is done. They can’t be responsible for what he does once he leaves the house.
Are these parents so arrogant to think that what they did as parents is going to keep him “protected” from outside influence the rest of his life? What parents can watch their kid every minute of every day for the rest of their lives? People need to realize that once a kid leaves the nest that they are now responsible for themselves and can’t blame the parents for their mistakes (if it was a mistake so then why would the parents ask themselves where they went wrong?)
If the kid was out on his own and did something to get himself disfellowshipped, then the parents could have said something like: “We hated to do it, but we followed orders from the Society so as to make him see the bad course he was following so he’d come back to the “truth” and save his life. It was really hard for us to do, but all we cared about was him living through Armageddon so we had to be strong.” That would have made more sense than the only explanation of why he came back was because he missed the family.
I have a feeling that the kid couldn’t survive on his own and that they kicked him out of the house and he came groveling back because he was starving to death or something like that and he had no choice but to come back and follow their rules to get back in their good graces.
You can tell by the look on the mother’s face that there is a whole lot more to the story than that little 3 minute skit.
All the Society was trying to accomplish with that story is that if parents want their kids to come back into the “fold” that they have to shun their kids. But for every one kid that works on (which they will never talk about), there’s probably 30 it does just the opposite and makes them more sure than ever that no loving Christian religion would treat an erring child like that and make them more determined than ever to never have anything to do with it.
I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 out of at least 20 kids that I personally know of that got disfellowshipped and never came back. I am glad for those kids that they saw it for what it really is, even if they don’t have anything to do with the parents anymore. The kids are better off.
Some parents who really do love their kids cry when they talk about those kids but others are arrogant and could care less about those kids now. The parents who really do love those kids and do shun them, are miserable. I think that contributes to so many in the congregations being on anti-depressants.
In that video, the guy introducing those parents made a comment like “perhaps” there are some in the audience going through this very thing…I can guarantee you that probably most of those people in that audience are experiencing having to shun a loved family member or a close friend. It has to be the most depressed group of people on the face of the earth because of the shunning policy.
Also, the kid’s job isn’t want caused him to get disfellowshipped. It’s like the leaked elder’s video. It wasn’t the girl that forced that kid to commit fornication. He did it on his own. That girl didn’t rape him.
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Wanderer says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:21 pm
What sort of brainwashing techniques teach parents that totally cutting off a child is normal and appropriate. As a parent I can’t ever imagine how I could do that to my Kids, not ever.
There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love of the JW’s.
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just asking says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:10 am
Blackmail is criminal in the part of the world I live.
How possible is it to get hold of this book elders use for judging others? I need a lawyer to check this out.
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Excelsior! says:
June 12, 2015 at 10:36 am
Shepherd the flock of God, the elder manual, is available as a PDF on line.
According to the lawyer for the WTBTS in Australia, they can get away with this because the baptism question 2 acts as a verbal contract.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Ted says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:22 am
“Their life sounds like it was so structured like it was a blue print they were following.”
Nicely summed up Anonymous. We were instructed to make out a schedule
for all our activities. The CO would ask, are we sticking to our schedule?
He would then counsel to let relatives know when we would be at meetings
or out in f, service, so they wouldn’t turn up and interfere with the blueprint.
( There was no time allotted for “Worldly” flesh and blood.)
“Family fun night” AH ! at last, a rest from the Bible, Sorry! No competitive
games, no worldly video games, no card games. Heaven forbid !
Let’s make it charades, identifying Bible characters. — When I used to get
together with other JWs for a social evening ( After the meeting)
it always ended up with that kind of “Entertainment”.
No wonder they have a problem with youths leaving.
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wifibandit says:
June 12, 2015 at 11:43 am
The same type of shunning will be praised around the world. Here is another example, in Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n884ylRFsCA&feature=youtu.be&t=1h1m48s
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anonymous says:
June 12, 2015 at 6:07 pm
David Splane gave the weirdest talk on jwbroadcasting called “There was no 1900 year old Faithful and Discreet Slave”. I listened to it over and over again and as far as I can tell, even though the name of the talk is that there was no Faithful and Discreet slave for 1900 years, the closest description that he could come up with is the Catholic Church. He talks about the Catholic Church being the first of preaching the Bible all over the world and he doesn’t say anything bad about them after that and then he gets to the end an just ends it with “and so there was no 1900 year old faithful and discreet slave. That talk even though it was interesting, seemed really pointless to me.
I take back my earlier description of agony and worry written all over his face. I don’t know what to think of his personality, whether he’s deluded or dumb.
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Excelsior! says:
June 13, 2015 at 5:39 am
Anonymous,
Dear lady, may I echo the sentiments of previous contributors and say thank you for your comments.
I think that Stephen Lett has some problem with stammering, poor chap. That is why he overemphasises all his words. I pity anyone with any impediment, no matter how I hate their choices.
His over the top gestures….I have no explanation for those!
I have no idea if he believes the balderdash or not. I think that there’s evidence that he is deluded, and I think that some of the others on the governing body members too.
I try to hate the actions and decisions, while having some regard for their humanity. I don’t always succeed!
One thing is certain. These “gentlemen” are continuing flat out to teach and enforce shunning. It’s a disgusting betrayal of peoples’ very humanity, and we all need to help eradicate it.
I am always educated by your comments, anonymous. Thanks for being kind enough to help others through challenging times.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 7:36 am
@Excelsior, thank you so much for your kind words. It helps me too to get my inward thoughts about the Organization out and written down instead of just rolling around and around in my head all night long. Writing down a person’s thoughts is good therapy, at least it works for me. Peace be with you also!!!
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Simon Kestral says:
June 13, 2015 at 1:48 am
Splane said Catholics did more missionary work than Protestants, but still failed to qualify as faithful and discreet.
Splane and his GB associates claim the title for themselves, but that is presumptuous. Only the master can reward his slaves with authority over all the master’s belongings. And the master, Jesus, has not given that reward yet.
Given WT’s flip flops on the faithful and discreet slave doctrine, starting with Russell in 1881, I don’t see how a thinking person could believe the position they have taken now.
It’s a big lie, and voids their claim of authority from God. Once you understand they lack authority, the other flaws in their teaching can be dismissed as doctrines of men, not even worth arguing about.
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anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 2:58 am
@Simon, I know that Splane claimed faithful and discreet slave for themselves (didn’t explain why though) but he didn’t explain why the Catholic Church didn’t fill that description or did I miss something? He credited the Catholic Church with missionary work etc. and how the other religions didn’t do that but didn’t explain clearly why the Catholic Church didn’t fit that description. He went on and on why the protestants didn’t qualify but I didn’t catch why the Catholics don’t.
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Excelsior! says:
June 13, 2015 at 5:46 am
Simon,
Good biblical points, sir. Thank you for reminding us that this slave has yet to be appointed.
Further, since when does a slave get to boss people around?
Jesus spent a lot of time teaching about humility. He ministered to his disciples, thus setting an example.
I think that the FADS is a parable, but if there is a FADS, or a class that is the FADS, then they should be humble and serving the Christian congregations selflessly.
The WTBTS is a cult, and is as far from humble Christianity as it is possible to be. They have no claim to being appointed by anyone.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 2:16 am
I can’t stop thinking about the demonstration with Mr. and Mrs. Sutton and how carefully it was all scripted.
Mrs. Sutton made a mistake when she started out by saying “I always….” and then she said “well, I said”…. So, she made a mistake and went off the script. If the video has been removed that would be the reason I think when she started off by saying “I always”…. It was like she really goofed because it made it sound like she said it over and over again to the kids that she brainwashing them into following the religion or else she wasn’t going to be there for them. That seems like a threat more than anything.
If you want your kid to follow your religion, it should be for the right reasons, not out of threats of excommunication. You do it or else I will disown you. That doesn’t sound very loving at all.
Then when the father says “We kept asking ourselves, were we too strict or weren’t we strict enough”. That was also so very scripted. They read every word the way the Society wanted them to read it.
That was also very scripted because the Society wanted all those people in the audience not to blame themselves if their kid got disfellowshipped and haven’t come back and got reinstated so that all those parents in the audience can wipe their hands of it and not blame themselves as long as they followed the Society’s instructions with meeting attendance, field service, reading the Bible and their “fun” nights and their weekly Bible study.
The Society was telling parents, to make sure you do all these things too and if you can pioneer too, well, that’s even better. You need to do everything the Society tells you to do as parents and if the kid goes astray, well, you can wipe your hands of their death at Armageddon because none of it was your “fault”.
And that works for a lot of people. They will wipe their hands of their kid, thinking it’s all the kids’ fault whatever the kid does now that they have moved out of the house or even if the kid is living at home and does something “wrong”, the parents can wipe their hands of it and not blame themselves for whatever the kids do.
It was intended to keep parents from being depressed at the thought of their kids dying at Armageddon if they keep that attitude and follow the instructions from the Society. It is intended to keep parents of disfellowshipped kids from thinking too hard about what they might have done wrong.
The problem is that if their lives are so structured like that, that when a kid gets out on their own, they are like a spring that is let loose. No parent can do everything “right” and sometimes the parents can be too strict or not strict enough.
It’s not to say that parents should blame themselves for when their kid does something “wrong” but the parents should ask the kids “what did I do wrong?” They should ask the kid that but instead the kid is disfellowshipped and the kid isn’t even allowed to tell the parents what they did wrong. They are not to listen to the kid even before the kid does something “wrong”. These people didn’t have time to listen to these three kids. Having three kids to raise and having full time jobs leaves very little time to know their kids when they have all that extra stuff the have to do when they are Witnesses.
What if the kid didn’t like all that stuff they had to do like meetings and Bible reading and not being able to celebrate birthdays or Christmas or whatever? What if they believe in evolution and not the Bible? Is the child free to express themselves? No. That is the whole problem with this religion. Everyone has to follow the script and nobody is allowed to go off the script and be themselves. If you don’t follow the script, you will be ostracized so in order not to be ostracized, you follow the script. If a child has a brain in his head and doesn’t want to be controlled like that, they will lead a double life.
If you compare that demonstration with the Suttons with demonstrations on other television shows with personal experiences with other religions, it is far different. In those other television shows, the parents are out their happy and singing but in this demonstration, the wife seemed scared and the father seemed under mind control. Those other people in other religious television shows are under cult mind control too, but at least they all seem to be in a real “happy place”. It’s not the forced “happy face” that Witnesses are told to put on.
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Excelsior! says:
June 13, 2015 at 5:54 am
anonymous,
I totally agree. She looks frightened and she does have cards in her hands that she keeps referring to throughout.
I found this video disturbing and desperately sad.
So many lives diminished.
Great comment!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Jessica kratzer says:
June 13, 2015 at 2:03 pm
I agree with alot of the things you say…it is discouraging to me and it hurts..because iam a babtized JW…but i have my own feeling and views about matters similar to yours.
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NoJesus4Me says:
June 18, 2015 at 10:44 pm
The interesting part for me was when the mother said, and i’m paraphrasing, “if you ever leave Jehovah i will not be there”. What makes her think she can deny her children their 1st amendment rights? The Freedom of Religion clause states: The First Amendment’s free exercise clause allows a person to hold whatever religious beliefs he or she wants, and to exercise that belief by attending religious services, praying in public or in private, proselytizing or wearing religious clothing, such as yarmulkes or headscarves. Also included in the free exercise clause is the right not to believe in any religion, and the right not to participate in religious activities.
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anonymous says:
June 19, 2015 at 4:31 am
@NoJesus4Me, unfortunately, freedom of religion allows people to join mind-controlling cults who prey on people with little or knowledge of the Bible and those cults are able to control them to the extent that they will abandon their own flesh and blood in favor of eight ordinary men in New York and even when they do learn what is in the Bible, dismiss everything they see in that Bible that shows them that they are in a mind-controlling cult, in favor of those eight ordinary men who couldn’t punch their way out of a paper bag without somebody there to tell them how to do it.
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KeepOnSeeking says:
June 13, 2015 at 6:47 am
Very sad. After being out of the Watchtower for about a year now, sometimes I forget how completely delusional this way of thinking is.
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just asking says:
June 13, 2015 at 7:44 am
Our watchtower or the jw org (I actually have never known what exactly it is referred to even when I grew up in this thing), always convinced us how being a pioneer always brought happiness, I personally became one & tried being happy but I realized I was forcing it. The family in the video was forcing it because that is what they’re supposed to do.
The society (by the way what’s their right description?), teaches how they’re the most loving religion the earth should proud of, yet they treat their family inhumanly for the crime of simply disagreeing on religion. We were actually told how we should never feel bad when our good Jehovah kills our relatives who are non jws at Armageddon, we should actually throw a party & invite all neighbors. I was wondering why the Jehovah I love so much can be so bad.
I am not surprised because its a jw thing, they’re simply unloving.
By the way, anonymous, I wish to be your bible study! I think your could conduct progressive bible studies.
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Simon Kestral says:
June 13, 2015 at 8:37 am
Splane’s argument against the Catholics goes like this:
a) without spiritual food to dispense, there is no faithful and discreet slave
b) without a Bible, there is no spiritual food
c) before the printing press circa 1440, Bibles were hand copied and rare
d) the Bible was written in Latin, only priests had easy access to Bibles
e) some priests even faked the words of their mass when they forgot the Latin!
Fakery? His whole argument is fake. It’s a red herring that serves to confuse and distract. They don’t want people to focus on the real issue: the GB’s claim to the title of faithful and discreet slave is a lie; their authority is fake.
Once we understand that, their other lies melt like ice on a hot day.
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anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 10:35 am
@Simon, I might be “only” a woman and and an old one at that, but I swear that I could have come up a whole lot better talk than that one of Splane’s to try and prove that the Governing Body is the faithful and discreet slave, even if I had to make up a whole bunch of stuff. He just gets to the end of his talk and says “so there was no faithful and discreet slave for 1900 years” and that was supposed to be good enough for this make believe sister who would ask that question since now the Society says that even though for many years they said there was a faithful and discreet slave during those 1900 years and now there really wasn’t a faithful and discreet slave for 1900 years.
I think these men think that if they just keep talking with words and more words, that the one asking the question will just give up, expecting an explanation that actually does make sense.
I don’t believe that any one of the men on the Governing Body can actually explain all that “new light” in the July 2013 Watchtower. According to that July 2013 Watchtower, the faithful and discreet hasn’t been appointed yet so at the end of Splane’s talk, he should have added “and there isn’t a faithful and discreet slave now either”. Just being the producer of religious literature doesn’t make them the faithful and discreet slave.
The funny thing is that at the beginning of his talk, he talks about how there has always been “anointed” but there hasn’t always been the faithful and discreet slave so my question is: How could there be anointed if they didn’t have Bibles and couldn’t read it if they did have a Bible until the invention of the printing press in the 1400’s ? Why didn’t God help those people along during all that time so they’d come up with a printing press to make the Bible available to everyone? Why did God have to wait until puny men came up with the printing press?
Splane as much as said that the only ones who could have been anointed would have been the clergy since they were the only ones that had Bibles and could read, right? What about the rest of the people? Why just only owners of Bibles who could read those Bibles would have that privilege of being anointed of God???? So God “anointed” those people during those times before the printing press, just by virtue of having and reading a Bible?
I don’t know what women he is referring to when they supposedly come up with those questions to the Governing Body, but I would not be satisfied with his answer to that question. Those men obviously think that we women are stupid to fall for such a simple and pointless answer. That goes to show just how stupid THEY are.
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anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 11:12 am
I have more questions about David Splanes talk. He said that for 1900 years there wasn’t a faithful and discreet slave.
The Society says that there was a Governing Body in Jerusalem during the first century until the end of the first century when the “apostasy” set in. In Acts, it says that there were thousands baptized as Christians. Since there was supposedly a Governing Body in Jerusalem during that time, why didn’t the Governing Body organize all those Christians to do the preaching work? Somewhere in the Greek scriptures (I think it was Paul) said that Christianity had been preached throughout the entire earth. So, then since there was supposedly a Governing Body directing the preaching work, then that Governing Body should have made sure that the message about God, spread instead of letting it die out at the end of the first century. Why would God let it die out like that, especially since there was a supposed Governing Body in Jerusalem? That Governing Body must not have been doing their job very well or maybe it was because the printing press hadn’t been invented yet so they’d have Watchtowers to sell that explains the Bible because after all, the Bible is so hard to understand, that they’d have to have people to interpret it for those people. But then, why would God come up with something that was so important for mankind but they wouldn’t be able to understand it without somebody to explain it to them? That doesn’t make any sense.
Also, since there was supposedly a Governing Body in Jerusalem until the end of the first century A.D. and you count forward 1900 years from 100 C.E., you come up with the year 2000 A.D. Is that when Splane was talking about now having a supposed Faithful and discreet slave, in the year 2000? I think Splane left out 100 years in his calculation because I think he was meaning at the beginning of the 19th century is when the Faithful and Discreet slave first showed up.
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anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 11:15 am
I should have said that I think Splane added a hundred years, not left out 100 years.
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Simon Kestral says:
June 13, 2015 at 11:47 am
@anonymous, it’s impossible to resolve all the contradictions and inconsistencies of WT doctrine.
Jesus said there will be two men in the field; one taken, another abandoned. So his followers need not huddle together in one place to survive. Jesus will choose and take people according to their individual merit.
So I feel no need to labor over the conflicting details of WT’s flawed teaching.
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anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 1:38 pm
Simon, it is too hard for me not to labor over all the contradictions and inconsistencies. If I could do that, my brain would be a lot happier. What helps for me to put it down in writing then my head can go on to other stuff less confusing.
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just asking says:
June 13, 2015 at 11:59 pm
We all know how confused and confusing those guys can get. Ask any random jw now what the latest stand on the generation & the F&DS teaching is, you will be surprised.
Tomorrow Tony will wakeup & tell all how the FS has always been there starting with Abel through to Moses & Jesus appointed a new spiritual FS, since the first never put faith in him(Jesus). Then the FS continued through history since there were sincere Bible students who even sacrificed their lives trying to preserve & translate the Bible.
Then CT.Russell happened to continue from where the rest stopped till now.
clap clap clap.
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anonymous says:
June 14, 2015 at 2:47 am
I would give my eye teeth to confront them directly.
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Wanderer says:
June 14, 2015 at 4:12 am
And I would give mine to be there to watch! I think you would run rings around them, if they were men enough to debate with you. Your knowledge and critical thinking skills are just so good.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 14, 2015 at 5:26 am
And the sad thing is that Anthony Morris’ son Paul married a girl from our congregation (Raquell) and before they got married, he visited and even gave a talk or two in our hall. If I only knew then what I know now!!
Reply
anonymous says:
June 14, 2015 at 5:37 am
@Wanderer, I forgot to say “thank you” for saying that.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:22 am
@anonymous thank you for your well written, knowledgable comments. Even though I faded a long time ago, I get a lot of pressure from my family to return. This website and comments from people like you really make me realise what a good desicion we made in leaving and what a dishonest organisation the JW’s are.
anonymous says:
June 15, 2015 at 3:31 am
@Wanderer, thank you again for such a nice comment. That really makes my day.
As long as your relatives are still trying to get you to come back, I have something you might ask them sometime and I bet they can’t answer it for you. It goes like this:
In Genesis 12:1-3, Abraham is told to leave his own people and country (Ur) to go to Canaan and that God was going to make a great nation out of him and all the families of the earth would bless themselves by means of Abraham. At Genesis 12:6, it says that when they got to Canaan, the Canaanites were already living in the land.
We as Witnesses were always told that while the Isrealites were in Egypt that those people (Canaanites) came into Canaan and took over the land but Genesis 12:6 clearly says that when Abraham arrived, the Canaanites were already living there.
Now in Exodus chapter 6:5, God is telling Moses that the reason God is bringing the Israelites out of Egypt is because of the Covenant that God established with Abraham that God was going to give Abraham the land where Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had been alien residents.
So, the Society lied to us when they say that God had every right to kill off all those people because they took over the land that belonged to the Israelites. That land never belonged to the Israelites. They were alien residents in the land when they were asked to move to Canaan and the land was already inhabited.
Also, in Genesis 25:1-4, it says that after Sarah died, Abraham married Keturah and it tells about all the children that Abraham had with her and one of his boys was called Midian. So, if you take the nations that came out of Jacob and Esau and Keturah with her children, the land of Canaan was already filled with Abraham’s children by the time of the Exodus and yet those Israelites leaving Egypt were to go to the land of Canaan and kill off all those people who were descendents of Abraham including the Midianites (Numbers 31).
When Moses left Egypt the first time, he went to Midian and married a Midianite woman and had Midianite children and here he was told to kill off all of Abraham’s offspring, including the Midianites. Does that make any sense?
At that time, all those people, including the Midianites had already made a great nation out of Abraham. So, why was Moses told to kill them all off????
The Society lies when they say that those Canaanite people moved into that country and so that is why he had every right to kill them all off because they didn’t want to leave.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 15, 2015 at 4:47 am
@anonymous thank you for the fantastic reply. I have to be very careful as to what I say, my elder brother (older and an elder) would try to disfellowship us for being apostate at any opportunity. I think he sees us not going anymore as a “shame” on the good standing the rest of the family have. My parents are not getting any younger and are such good grandparents, I wouldn’t want to jeapordize their relationship with my kids or us. It is not a fair situation as I can’t speak my mind for fear of being cut off from my parents, it’s like a religious peer pressure!
anonymous says:
June 15, 2015 at 5:02 am
My family are like that too. Even if I bring up anything, they refuse to listen or comprehend. At least you still have a good relationship with your family.
Reply
Ted says:
June 14, 2015 at 10:46 am
The July 15 / 2011, WT, stated. “The message is clear. Our love for
Jehovah must be stronger than our love for unfaithful family members”.
That statement came, after recounting the tale of JHVH striking “Dead”
the sons of Aaron.
This is typical of the way that WT org, uses the Bible. — To threaten
and intimidate. Is it possible to truly love someone, when in effect
they’ve got a gun pointed at your head? And threaten to kill you,
unless your love for them is not stronger than your love for anyone
else?
And who are the “Unfaithful Relatives” that we must shun in order to
demonstrate our love for JHVH ? In many cases they are people
to whom truth matters. But they have not found it in the WT, org,!
The so called unfaithful ones. Cannot accept, that One Generation
lasts 115 years, and still counting. Or the shape shifting F & D,S
nonsense. –Russell– All anointed remnant– GB, currently 7 members.
Slave appointed in apostolic times? – Wrong, now changed to 1919
Also unacceptable to reasoning people. Is the the switcheroo on the
1935 cut off point for anointed qualification. Under which most, if not
all GB present members would “Not Qualify”. So now that has flipped
and the date left open ended. Now anointed GB, can be produced
ad infinitum
I’m delighted to be numbered among the unfaithful, which in their view
means a rejection of WT, org, teachings. But in reality it’s clearing the
the mind of all the see sawing rubbish. The Bible says, “God does not
change”. That alone tells us they’re not getting their info, from him.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 14, 2015 at 3:42 pm
@ Ted your comments NAILED the GB to the STAKE or should I say CROSS??!
Reply
JJ says:
June 15, 2015 at 4:58 am
To all those Game of Thrones fans out there;
Have you noticed how the High Sparrow acts like a pious Jehovah’s Witness elder??? (Probably a Branch Committee Member or some other ‘high rank from the Society) Isn’t it funny how he refers all of his decisions to his Holy Book and his fellows on the Body of Septums???
How the “trial” is going to be much like a Judical Committee in some Kingdom Hall basement???
It seems that the TV shows producers and the writers understand authoritarian religion much better than the regular guy-on-the-street! Although this show is fantasy and fictional, it is based on facts and historical narratives and the scenes dealing with the different religions and their inner workings would make for intelligent discussions among people.
Reply
ruth lee says:
June 17, 2015 at 1:24 am
what interesting comments and valid no doubt we are all feeling the pinch are we not has it occurred to anyone that all the prophecies with reguards to judgement is going to start at the top of the pyramid there is a smashing instrument coming and lo and behold those who should shepherd Jesus dear sheep are first after all they claim to be so responsible for those sheep i remember as a child asking my dad what it meant when 1 got lost and the shepherd went looking for the sheep he didnt smack it and rough housed it back into the fold or threatened it that poor sheep was put in the bosom position for safe keeping my dad had no answer just vague waffle it is very clear to me our Lord will be the judge of mankind not us our job is to be human and act in a humane way with all the attributes of a human not a machine just a few thoughts for today
Reply
ruth lee says:
June 17, 2015 at 2:00 am
post script has it occured to any of you out there that we are feeding each other and getting stronger because we have been so starved and we have such faith as not to be abandoned just when we need the help having these thought provoking comments and a collective consciousness reguardless of belief or what conclusions we come to the overriding thing that comes through is not hatred or getting even but genuine love for damaged people so keep the comments coming i need them so much and just to know we are not alone and isolated because some of us really could not cope at all on a lighter note i have requested my husband to not ever accept any assignment at the assembly where we are held up as shining examples what pressure on my kids he is rather bemused but how can i run with the hare and hunt with the hounds the thought of being scrutinzed by genuine people and me having to lie in front of thousands of people would feel like an ultimate betrayal of honesty
Reply
more questions than answers says:
June 17, 2015 at 7:09 am
As someone who was raised in the organization but, have been ‘inactive’ for the past 4 years…I have questions for this group. If it is a ‘man made’ religion and rubbish…What do you all believe? Are you athiest, like Cedars? Are you Christian, and attend a non-denominational church? I’m curious as to where most of us ‘land’ after being a JW.
Reply
Gameisover says:
June 17, 2015 at 11:18 am
All witnesses are convinced that “there is nowhere to go”
If they leave the organization(besides loosing their families). Those two thoughts are a deterrant.
They’ve had pounded in their brains the words of Peter:
“Lord, where shall we go, YOU have words of everlasting life”. Talk about twisting the scriptures! The “you”, they say is the Watchtower Society! But we all know it’s Jesus Christ.
So for those who are religious and want to continue being Christians, they have plenty of choices.
Where I live, most are either becoming atheist or Catholics. They reason it is apostolic.
I know I’ve never been so happy, in spite of the shunning.
What a breath of fresh air to be free from them!!!
Reply
Pat says:
June 17, 2015 at 8:04 pm
Hearing it spoken out loud like this clip makes me squirm to think once I would not have thought twice about it. Then, when it happened to me when I sent in my disassociation letter I experienced the reality of shunning even to the point where my mother on her deathbed refused to see me.
Reply
Ocma says:
June 22, 2015 at 7:26 pm
I have not read all the other comments yet, so perhaps someone has already said this, but – Why don’t they interview all the parents shunning their children with no ‘success’ ? Those whose children have not returned to the fold.
These JW’s love to spout their rubbish, how cutting off their own family members is for everyone’s own good.
All it does is cause hurt. Being shunned myself, it has only cemented further into me that I was part of a bogus man made religion, and no way do I want to return.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 23, 2015 at 10:05 am
Ocma,
An excellent question and observation.
Many people respond to shunning by being even more determined to stay away!
How many lives are lived this way? People denied a loving, close relationship with their kin and absolutely convinced that Jehovah’s Witnesses are totally wrong.
The general public are beginning to comprehend that the kooky, goofy Jdubs are in fact a cult. Their squeeky clean image is an illusion that is fast losing its effectiveness.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Paul says:
June 23, 2015 at 1:45 am
None of my children or grandchildren remained witnesses, and we did not shun them as we did not agree with this stance. Now we have faded out as we finally see the hypocrisy & lack of truth in the Org. It is amazing how clear things are without the continual WT programming !
Reply
Meredith J says:
June 29, 2015 at 8:44 pm
Well said. When the elders told me my son was marked because of his questionable associations, I could not believe how scummy that treatment was. I remembered thinking if people in the congregation mark him and then I did too, what hope has he got? And how could that possibly be good for him? It made no sense. It was just plain cruel to do to a young person and I couldn’t help thinking about the young ones who had been disowned by their parents to be left to fend for themselves. What a cruel and stupid act to do to a teenager. Never, never could I do that. One of the many reasons why I left. The Watchtower Society was cruel with no heart for the weak and vulnerable. Not a Christian bone in their body.
Reply
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← Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith
Jehovah’s Witness mother refuses blood transfusion leaving behind NINE children →
Landmark victory sees Jehovah’s Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
avatar
Posted on June 19, 2015
Under fire: The Britain branch office (pictured) says it will "review" the six-figure judgment
Under fire: The Britain branch office (pictured) says it will “review” the judgment
The BBC has today reported on a landmark ruling at London’s High Court that sees a victim of child sex abuse as a result of safeguarding failures by Watchtower become the first person to win a civil suit against the organization in the UK.
Our child abuse correspondent, Karen Morgan, who is herself a JW child abuse victim, reported on this case back in March.
Then it was revealed that, if successful, it could open the floodgates for more claims to be brought against Watchtower in the UK – with the organization already under fire with the Charity Commission over its worsening safeguarding reputation.
AO Advocates, the law firm representing the victim (who is being referred to as “C” to preserve her anonymity) also revealed in March that they had as many as six extra clients waiting in the wings if C’s case proved successful.
Well, now C has been awarded £275,000 in compensation from Watchtower, surely paving the way for more legal proceedings against the embattled organization.
Visit the BBC page reporting this story
As heartening as this news will be to the many campaigners who urgently want to see Watchtower protect children by taking child abuse seriously, it is worth reflecting on the heavy price paid by the victim as a result of her ordeal.
Now in her 20s, C was abused between 1989 and 1994 when she was between the ages of just four and nine. The abuse, including rape, took place in her home, in her attacker’s home, in a shed, and in cars. C was told “she was sinning” and “she would not be saved.” Her ordeal has left her so traumatized that she has already attempted suicide and reportedly told her lawyers she didn’t expect to live beyond 30.
C’s attacker, Paul Stewart, died in 2001, aged 72, shortly before police arrived at his home to arrest him for his abuse of her. He was a ministerial servant when he began abusing C in 1989, but was shortly thereafter removed as a servant after confessing to molesting another girl.
Even so, elder’s let him hold on to many of the privileges he’d held as a servant. Thus Stewart was able to exploit the positions of trust given to him by elders in a congregation in Loughborough to carry out his wicked acts.
Reaction
In delivering his verdict, Mr Justice Globe said he was “satisfied” the organization should be “held responsible” for the abuse.
The organization has responded to the verdict by telling the BBC it will review the judgment. Regular readers of JWsurvey will recall that, as recently as February this year, Governing Body member Stephen Lett slammed concerns over Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
C spoke to the BBC before the verdict, saying: “These [abuse victims] aren’t apostates, these are people who have suffered from horrible, horrible crimes and had their lives completely wrecked. They’re not out to destroy the organisation… This is a problem that needs to be dealt with and it needs to be dealt with properly because it is only going to get worse.”
The BBC legal affairs correspondent Clive Coleman has recognized the significance of the verdict: “This is the first civil case for damages for historical sexual abuse in the UK brought against the Jehovah’s Witness organization, and is thought to be the first brought against any non-mainstream religion.”
And Kathleen Hallisey, lawyer at AO Advocates, has remarked: “This should be a wake-up call to the Jehovah’s Witness organisation that they need to implement better child safeguarding policies that are in line with modern day knowledge about child safeguarding and sexual abuse. And I also hope that it’s a wake-up call to members of the organisation that child sexual abuse is a problem within the organisation and it’s something that they need to do something about.”
We can only hope this story and so many others like it will indeed cause individual Witnesses to either urge reform from within the organization, or vote with their feet.
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Further reading…
◾BBC report
◾Guardian report
◾Independent report
◾Daily Express report
◾Leicester Mercury report
◾Loughborough Echo report
◾Christian Today report
◾Friendly Atheist report
◾Freethinker report
◾Full text of official court decision
◾Landmark UK High Court case against Watchtower could make history
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
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← Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith
Jehovah’s Witness mother refuses blood transfusion leaving behind NINE children →
70 Responses to Landmark victory sees Jehovah’s Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
Newer Comments →
Thad says:
June 19, 2015 at 8:01 am
Great reporting. At long last…justice for this girl. No more cover-ups WT Organisation.
Reply
sirius says:
June 19, 2015 at 8:17 am
>>>Governing Body member Stephen Lett slammed concerns over Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it. ~Maurice Switzer, 1906
IMHO
dogstar
Reply
David says:
June 19, 2015 at 8:43 am
Oh yes, they want to review the case!
Poor them, they are always the victims of this evil system of things.
They only want to be the side that shuns, insult, abuse and condemn people. If they are touched with a finger they are victims of people who hates Jehovah.
I hope that society wakes up and realise that behind the nice appearance there is an organisation that ruthlessly abuse people.
They split families to justify their strange ideas and ever changing truths (lies).
I really believe that they hate Jehovah!, Jesus said “Love your enemies” not shun your loved ones. SHAME ON YOU!!!
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
June 19, 2015 at 8:46 am
I sincerely hope this case changes the outsiders’ perception of JWs as polite and earnest, albeit nerdy evangelists, into something closer to the cruel and ugly reality.
Reply
dontknowwheretogo says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:15 am
Society are appealing the decision…you would think they should just pay it, accept it and move on but you can’t take money from Jehoover thus the Society will fight this ruling.
That in itself should be a wakeup call to still ins!
Reply
Cedars says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:21 am
Hi – where did you get this information from?
Reply
dontknowwheretogo says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:01 am
Hi Lloyd, it mentions the society will appeal in the BBC article…the BBC have updated it with more info.
Reply
dontknowwheretogo says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:02 am
I’ll quote it for you:
“The organisation – which accepted that Stewart, who died before facing justice, sexually abused the claimant – said it was “disappointed” with the decision and would appeal.”
Reply
Cedars says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:20 am
Yes, I see now. Thanks so much for bringing that point out – I completely missed it! :)
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 20, 2015 at 6:57 pm
The Watchtower was somewhat successful in its appeal of the Candace Conti case:
“A state appeals court in San Francisco today upheld a $2.8 million compensatory damage award for a woman who was molested as a child by an adult member of the North Fremont Jehovah’s Witnesses Congregation.”
“But the appeals court overturned an additional $8.6 million punitive award levied against the congregation and the Jehovah’s Witnesses headquarters organization in a 2012 Alameda County Superior Court trial on a lawsuit filed by Candace Conti.”
It appears that the Watchtower will only be liable for a percentage of the $2.8 million punitive award and the North Fremont CA Congregation will be liable for the rest.
As for this latest judgment in England, the Watchtower will use the appeals process to delay payment and attempt to have the the amount of the judgment reduced.
http://patch.com/california/fremont/court-upholds-28-million-award-jehovahs-witnesses-molestation-case-0
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 21, 2015 at 9:30 am
Correction: The sentence in the fourth paragraph above should have read, “…the $2.8 million COMPENSATORY award…”
“Compensatory damages are damages that are awarded to a plaintiff in a civil law case for injuries incurred as a result of the actions of the defendant, lost wages, lost profits, hospital bills (current and future), cost of home medical care, property damage, mental anguish, loss of friends, loss of respect in the community, loss of reputation, loss of consortium and pain and suffering.”
“Punitive damages will only be awarded by the judge presiding over the case if the defendant’s act was so horrible and offensive that the court believes it is important to make an example out of the defendant from the case. Punitive damages are meant to be a punishment for the defendant and to deter the defendant from committing the same crime again.”
http://www.litigationlawfirms.com/resources/lawsuits-and-disputes/litigation/types-damages.htm
Reply
Alison Boniface says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:25 am
With is is such great news. I was at the case supporting the victim and it was blatantly obvious that the org was at fault even tho there lawyer tried to rubbish the witnesses. The org’s own expert witness said that saying sorry isn’t enough, and that child abuse is an illness like being an alcoholic…..they may say sorry they won’t do it again….but without help they will.
I’m so happy that this real problem is being recognised at last.
Reply
Darlene Alexander says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:27 am
Congrats to C for taking on the WT corp – and winning! No child should have to suffer like she did, and I hope she continues to recover surrounded by kindness and love. Ecstatic that another case has revealed JWs for the despicable cult they are.
Reply
apostate shamostate says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:42 am
Thank you C for being brave enough and strong enough to see this through to the end. All my thoughts are with you and it is unbearable what you have had to suffer. You are an absolute star to have come through this and I hope you will be able to see some light and the end of this horrible ordeal.
So much love and thanks.
xx
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 19, 2015 at 10:33 am
Thank you C for being so very brave. You took on the dot org and won. I hope the ordinary rank and file members of watchtower see that this is not “apostate driven lies”. I still fear for the children. This is another seismic event that will rock watchtower. Thanks for the great reporting.
Best wishes to all,
Jerry
Reply
Searcher says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:20 am
This is great news that justice is served in Great Britain against the cruel cult that allowed and hid this type of behavior. However, I hate that this has happened to “C”. That is an awful thing to happen to any child or person. No amount of money can undo the damage that this person did to “C”. If you are reading this, then peace be with you “C”.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:24 am
WT is like the three wise monkeys: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. As wikipedia says, they “deal with impropriety by turning a blind eye.”
In a large corporation or bureaucracy, the effects of policy are not always readily apparent. It can take years or even decades to connect failure with bad decisions. And the high level of apostate paranoia at WT will keep them blind for a long time.
They won’t change until the money is all gone.
Reply
Jay says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:27 am
I’m just happy it worked out for her. I just hope this doesn’t add anymore to the Borg’s persecution complex mentality.
Reply
Ted says:
June 19, 2015 at 1:29 pm
Elders need to understand that child abuse is not only sin,
to be dealt with inside the org. First and.foremost it is a
“Crime” and any allegations need to be reported to the
properly constituted authorities. Otherwise they themselves
could be complicit and liable to prosecution.
They need also to recognise that their cong, judicial system
is not the superior arrangement that’s claimed for it, and is
Inadequate to deal with such cases.
The claims of the org, that they constantly warn parents to
be on guard against abusers, are insincere. When they allow
such people to circulate freely among them.
Comments that abusing children is an addiction, a disease,
are no doubt made to try and mitigate it in some way.
In that case then, a disease carrier needs to be quarantined.
Reply
Markw says:
June 19, 2015 at 1:59 pm
I saw this news break on the BBC website at lunchtime. It was on national radio news by 2pm and on the main news at tea time when the majority of people would be home watching and listening. I hope it’s all over the papers as well, so that homeowners can see the headlines and hold it up for witnesses to see when they call on them this weekend.
I’m thinking of copying the articles, laminating them and giving them out to passers-by right next to the W/T magazine stand next to the railway station. I’m sure the public would be more interested in that news than the comics that Witnesses are trying to place!
Reply
Innocent Son says:
June 19, 2015 at 2:28 pm
Well done Markw on. I’d like to see the J.W. Apolgists explain their way out of this…..The Org’s whole system is corrupt and wrong, the Winds of Change are sweeping across this Organisation and their child abuse policies which are deeply flawed, one of many cases that will break this year….
Reply
Markw1509 says:
June 20, 2015 at 1:07 am
Thanks, Innocent Son. I believe there are many more cases lined up now that ‘C’ has won this.
JW Apologists tend to rely on the ‘imperfect men’ and ‘just one or two cases’ arguments, but they can’t deny that the ‘two-witnesses’ policy offers a haven to many of these misfits.
I remember elders scoffing at the Catholic Priests who had been found out over the years…I wonder what they’re thinking now?
Let’s hope that many householders see this news and confront the door-knockers with hard-to-answer questions about their policies.
Will it make much difference to the r&f? I honestly don’t think so, as they will still believe Stephen Lett’s pronouncement in February, about ‘ridiculous’ statements made by apostates about child abuse in the org!
Reply
alanv says:
June 20, 2015 at 2:22 am
There is a thread about it on the Topix JW discussion website. So far no comment from any JW apologists.
Reply
Grace says:
June 19, 2015 at 5:10 pm
Seriously, they can’t just keep blaming apostates! At some stage they should own up to their mistakes.
Reply
Thinking of leaving says:
June 19, 2015 at 5:11 pm
You are just so on the mark with your reporting on JWdom. Virtually hours after it happening. This brings me back to a you tube video by Louise Good and our friend LEH. Bethel completely refused to send out or discuss there safe guarding policies, and the local elders didn’t even know the document existed. When they were handed an unofficial copy of the safe guarding policy (she got the impression)they were going to bin it. Good on you Wt ( and their minion LEH). I guess it goes to show how far they have come.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
June 19, 2015 at 5:58 pm
Their tactic seems to be to appeal every case that is won against them.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 19, 2015 at 7:39 pm
Sadly it is awful cases like this that make the JWs beg for money on jw.org and make cartoons aimed at stealing ice cream money off of their children.
Quite ironic that they are asking for JW children’s money to help pay for the multitude of law suits they are losing for not protecting JW children properly.
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
June 20, 2015 at 12:38 am
”we have money going out than coming in” best get use it! Ha Ha Ha
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
June 20, 2015 at 12:53 am
sorry missed the MORE money going out, MORE jws going out, but a lot more lawsuits coming in.
Reply
Markw1509 says:
June 20, 2015 at 1:11 am
Will Steven Lett now make a new announcement on JW.Org, saying that ‘Actually, the apostates were right…we do harbour child abusers, but we’re going to change our policies and now denounce it as a crime instead of a sin.’?
No. I think 1914 will be rejected and Tony Tight Pants will announce that he alone is the F&DS before Stephen will broadcast that statement!
Reply
Markw1509 says:
June 20, 2015 at 1:19 am
This comment was made in the Guardian newspaper:
“The damages and an interim payment of £455,000 towards A’s legal costs will be met by the trustees of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.”
Does anyone know who the ‘trustees’ are who will have to pay damages and costs? Are these contributions by the children who have to go without ice-cream to pay for the WBTS policies? Or is it someone else?
Thanks and peace.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 20, 2015 at 5:15 am
Markw1509,
A good place to start is to look on the Charity Commission website, because the WTBTS has Trustees to gain charity status.
I suspect that it is these individuals mentioned. However, they could be Trustees of one of the many corporations controlled by the WTBTS.
These Trustees will be listed somewhere, though.
I hope this helps, sir.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Markw1509 says:
June 20, 2015 at 12:39 pm
Thanks, Excelsior!
Always enjoy your helpful, erudite and interesting comments.
Peace to you too.
Mark
Reply
Mopheus says:
June 20, 2015 at 4:32 am
Lets hope that this is the first of of many in the uk.
I have family who hang on the every word that this corrupt bunch of clowns say.
The cases that have made the headlines in the US, are basically still unknown to the average JW here, and if it is heard, it’s “just apostate lies!”
If we can keep these cases coming, along with the ongoing Charities Commission case,we could possibly have a perfect storm of negative press against them that is impossible to ignore.
My thoughts also go out to ALL of the victims of this cult.
Be brave.your day will come.
Reply
Kat says:
June 20, 2015 at 4:39 am
JW apologists rant that the abused are only interested in the money, and hate JW and are vengeful, apostates exaggerate and are bitter and hate all JW.
Yet its these so apostates against the WT that seem to only care about the victims, many of them being victims themselves and who can blame them for being upset and yes bitter at times. But they care more for the JW than these apologists which are way to proud to ever admit that their GB policies have failed to protect the most vulnerable among them.
Hopefully C will have some sort of validation and this coming from Satan’s world,(WT speak) she got no justice protection from the GB.
Another brave women and hopefully this may help in some healing.
And this coming soon after the lying hypocritical speak from Stephen Lett. I hope that at least some JW will have the intelligence and conscience to see through the total dishonesty of Lett.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 20, 2015 at 5:26 am
Lloyd,
Thank you for this article, and also a sincere thank you to Karen Morgan for her continued kindness.
C
I am so sorry for the pain you went through and the trauma you face daily. I hope that this victory will give you strength and comfort. You are an amazing, outstanding person, and I wish you all the luck in the world as you live your life going forward.
All of us want to help you if we can.
This case will provide a precedent so other brave victims of terrible abuses can receive the justice they deserve. I hope that this is the case.
Let us hope that the WTBTS comprehend that it is now essential to address the monstrous abuses that it has covered up for so long.
They need to put in place, and vigorously enforce, a child protection policy that actually protects children and young people from the fiends who want to abuse them.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
RC says:
June 20, 2015 at 5:55 am
Wonderful news.Let more people come forward now .Girls like C and Brie(another wonderful woman) are really causing the WT a lot of distress.However what else can we expect from a religion which baptized peter sutcliffe (read about it only a few days ago). Nothing about this organization(calling it a religion will be insult to other religions) surprises me any more.
Reply
Ted says:
June 20, 2015 at 6:18 am
They’re very devious on this whole issue. The elders manual
states that child abuse is a crime, and no cong, sanctions
will be imposed if the victim reports it to the police.
If the victim or family though, ask about reporting it, the elders
are to remain neutral, or passive and leave it entirely in the
victims hands. So as usual the org, covers itself legally,
but are disgraced morally, leaving the injured one alone to make
a very emotional and troubling decision.
WT articles have counselled against taking other “Christians” to
“Worldly” law courts, ( claimed to be of Satan’s system ).
The fact that some of these abuse cases have taken several years
to come to light, indicates the mental struggle that some victims
have had. A choice between exposing a criminal or coping with
guilt feelings by bringing reproach on “God’s organisation”?
One must wonder, how many such cases have gone undisclosed.
Reply
just asking says:
June 20, 2015 at 7:38 am
Why doesn’t our good organization come out & tell us the truth? I feel there is something they’re not telling us. I mean why do they do those horrible things and try to co er them up in effect losing lots of dollars? They can just say each individual abuser should carry his own burden and corporate with authorities. I think that would save their reputation. What do they try to achieve? What are they not telling us?
Reply
James Broughton says:
June 20, 2015 at 10:48 am
I agree with Rowland Nelken. However, even when people do see the ugly side of the Watchtower Society they will put it down to persecution by a hostile media. They need to be shown that there is a real alternative.
Reply
David says:
June 20, 2015 at 12:17 pm
It is amazing that although these cases are becoming common in the jw.org religion they shamelessly criticise the catholic church for the same thing. They put their reputation above people lives. Thanks to the internet they dark ages tactics are finally exposed.
Reply
Jakemon75 says:
June 20, 2015 at 1:34 pm
When their made up kingdom crumbles you’ll be able to look back at these types of rulings and see that this was part of lighting the fuse.
Since so many apologists are ignoring their strict command to not even visit a site like this and are on here trolling and defending the governing body, I’ll say this preemptively. This is not Satan’s world attacking you. This is accountability for your wrong doing. This is self inflicted because you base your policies, your values on opinions derived from a Bronze Age book of ancient Hebrew fairy tales.
And you are proven wrong for doing so. If god is backing you then you need to get a better god.
Because you’re wrong. And being wrong is going to be terribly expensive.
Anyone care to donate? Now we know why they openly pandered for money.
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 20, 2015 at 10:05 pm
Jakemon75 says: “Anyone care to donate? Now we know why they openly pandered for money.”
It’s now easier that ever to donate money to help pay the child abuse judgments. The Watchtower now accepts Visa, MasterCard, American Express and Discover:
https://www.jw.org/apps/E_QBrNGR
Reply
Bad Penny says:
June 20, 2015 at 5:27 pm
RC –
I knew about the serial killer Peter Sutcliffe getting baptised – Did you know that Rose West is also a Jehovah’s Witness?
Honestly, it makes a mockery of them shunning us poor misguided souls. They prefer the company of people whose wickedness has been proven in law. Protecting paedophiles who claim their innocence is par for the course.
The two witness rule is so blatantly wicked when it is applied to abuse victims. Cases like this one will hopefully lead to more brave victims coming forward.
With the Jimmy Savile atrocities still fresh in peoples minds we can only hope that these revelations will prevent honest hearted ones from looking at this damned religion!
Reply
Bad Penny says:
June 20, 2015 at 5:41 pm
just asking –
‘Why doesn’t our good organisation come out and tell us the truth’?
Because they are a bad organisation who have told us lie upon lie. The chasm is now too great to cross.
To admit that 607 is the wrong date for the destruction of Jerusalem (check it out on historical websites) would mean having to admit that 1914 is wrong as well. They will never do this. It is a foundation stone to their faith.
Too many people would abandon them. The money would stop coming in. The results would be disastrous. So they have to keep supporting the lie, and let’s face it if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it!
Every Jehovah’s witness is living proof of this.
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
June 20, 2015 at 6:19 pm
I phoned up my old man saturday morning ( his an elder )asked if he was going door, to which he said yes, then asked if he saw the news on bbc, ¡ got ” yeees ” so i called him the devils addvocate. For some reason my phone went dead. lol
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
June 20, 2015 at 6:56 pm
Then as i walked through town to meet my sister, to my amazment there were two jws with a trolley. I couldnt help but say ” after yesterday ( there faces dropped like lead ballons ) do really think youve got much hope ? ” All i got back was ” urrrgh ”
Reply
nick robinson says:
June 21, 2015 at 6:39 am
There was a comment on this on JW talk – they know whenever they hit the headlines – field and cart service will be bad – you dhould see them at oxford circus tube – people ignore them. They only ask them for directions to places.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
June 21, 2015 at 8:22 am
Great article. Thank you, Cedars.
I have a dream that, someday, the number of lawyers in the Organization will outnumber R&F. A man can dream…
“I believe in monsters and things that go bump in the night… May they rot in hell, along with their attorneys.” Law & Order
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
June 21, 2015 at 8:54 am
There is a thought that has been bugging me, and I wish I could discuss it with a JW.
I think any JW would agree that pedophilia is a crime (I hope). I think they would agree that the Organization has a procedures for handling this internally. I think they would agree that it is not always the case that these are reported to the authorities (e.g. the police). So, based on evidence, there are some pedophiles who may be disfellowshipped but are not behind bars. Correct?
Do the JWs not understand that even if they are able to keep their Organization “clean” that this does nothing for the rest of the world? If they are not reporting these offenders, are they not turning a monster lose out into the world? JWs are quick to say that they go door-to-door because they want to save lives, but do not seem to take the steps to protect their fellow citizens. Is this not the very definition of hypocrisy?
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
June 21, 2015 at 12:45 pm
jws have no shame or feelings for these poor tortured souls, even after being publiclly humillated they just stand there with a witchtower and count time.
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 21, 2015 at 12:55 pm
Stephen Lett’s rant against ridiculous “apostate driven lies and deceptions” applies to congregation elders. A former elder from the Oakley, CA congregation read from a letter bearing the letterhead of the North Congregation of Fremont CA Jehovah’s Witnesses. This was a letter of recommendation which introduced known child molester, Jonathan Kendrick to the elders of the Oakley congregation:
The former elder read, “There’s no indication at all that he’s guilty of child abuse. If you read it, it very specifically says he’s a very interesting individual who has taken the lead with some young ones in the congregation and helped them from veering off course. That’s not a child abuser, that’s a recommendation. That’s a very specific recommendation. Oh, relax. He’s good with kids.”
In the Candace Conti case, the court determined that the Watchtower is under no obligation to identify child molesters who are lurking in congregations. However, there is a big difference between remaining silent and giving a child molester a glowing recommendation. Jonathan Kendrick later married a woman in the Oakley congregation and then went on to sexually molest her underage granddaughter. (It was this event that prompted Candace Conti to pursue her legal case against the Watchtower.)
In this instance, ridiculous apostate-driven lies and deceptions originated with the elders of the North Congregation of Fremont.
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/stephen-lett-slams-apostate-driven-lies-and-dishonesties-concerning-child-abuse-record
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/leaders-jehovahs-witnesses-cover-child-sex-abuse/
(The letter praising child molester Jonathan Kendrick appears 6 minutes into the video.)
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← Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith
Jehovah’s Witness mother refuses blood transfusion leaving behind NINE children →
Landmark victory sees Jehovah’s Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
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Posted on June 19, 2015
Under fire: The Britain branch office (pictured) says it will "review" the six-figure judgment
Under fire: The Britain branch office (pictured) says it will “review” the judgment
The BBC has today reported on a landmark ruling at London’s High Court that sees a victim of child sex abuse as a result of safeguarding failures by Watchtower become the first person to win a civil suit against the organization in the UK.
Our child abuse correspondent, Karen Morgan, who is herself a JW child abuse victim, reported on this case back in March.
Then it was revealed that, if successful, it could open the floodgates for more claims to be brought against Watchtower in the UK – with the organization already under fire with the Charity Commission over its worsening safeguarding reputation.
AO Advocates, the law firm representing the victim (who is being referred to as “C” to preserve her anonymity) also revealed in March that they had as many as six extra clients waiting in the wings if C’s case proved successful.
Well, now C has been awarded £275,000 in compensation from Watchtower, surely paving the way for more legal proceedings against the embattled organization.
Visit the BBC page reporting this story
As heartening as this news will be to the many campaigners who urgently want to see Watchtower protect children by taking child abuse seriously, it is worth reflecting on the heavy price paid by the victim as a result of her ordeal.
Now in her 20s, C was abused between 1989 and 1994 when she was between the ages of just four and nine. The abuse, including rape, took place in her home, in her attacker’s home, in a shed, and in cars. C was told “she was sinning” and “she would not be saved.” Her ordeal has left her so traumatized that she has already attempted suicide and reportedly told her lawyers she didn’t expect to live beyond 30.
C’s attacker, Paul Stewart, died in 2001, aged 72, shortly before police arrived at his home to arrest him for his abuse of her. He was a ministerial servant when he began abusing C in 1989, but was shortly thereafter removed as a servant after confessing to molesting another girl.
Even so, elder’s let him hold on to many of the privileges he’d held as a servant. Thus Stewart was able to exploit the positions of trust given to him by elders in a congregation in Loughborough to carry out his wicked acts.
Reaction
In delivering his verdict, Mr Justice Globe said he was “satisfied” the organization should be “held responsible” for the abuse.
The organization has responded to the verdict by telling the BBC it will review the judgment. Regular readers of JWsurvey will recall that, as recently as February this year, Governing Body member Stephen Lett slammed concerns over Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
C spoke to the BBC before the verdict, saying: “These [abuse victims] aren’t apostates, these are people who have suffered from horrible, horrible crimes and had their lives completely wrecked. They’re not out to destroy the organisation… This is a problem that needs to be dealt with and it needs to be dealt with properly because it is only going to get worse.”
The BBC legal affairs correspondent Clive Coleman has recognized the significance of the verdict: “This is the first civil case for damages for historical sexual abuse in the UK brought against the Jehovah’s Witness organization, and is thought to be the first brought against any non-mainstream religion.”
And Kathleen Hallisey, lawyer at AO Advocates, has remarked: “This should be a wake-up call to the Jehovah’s Witness organisation that they need to implement better child safeguarding policies that are in line with modern day knowledge about child safeguarding and sexual abuse. And I also hope that it’s a wake-up call to members of the organisation that child sexual abuse is a problem within the organisation and it’s something that they need to do something about.”
We can only hope this story and so many others like it will indeed cause individual Witnesses to either urge reform from within the organization, or vote with their feet.
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Further reading…
◾BBC report
◾Guardian report
◾Independent report
◾Daily Express report
◾Leicester Mercury report
◾Loughborough Echo report
◾Christian Today report
◾Friendly Atheist report
◾Freethinker report
◾Full text of official court decision
◾Landmark UK High Court case against Watchtower could make history
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
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← Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith
Jehovah’s Witness mother refuses blood transfusion leaving behind NINE children →
70 Responses to Landmark victory sees Jehovah’s Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
← Older Comments
anonymous says:
June 21, 2015 at 2:37 pm
In the Catholic Church, the pedophiles were the priests but in the JW religion, a lot of the time, the pedo is going to be an elder with children who will molest his own little girls.
Can you imagine the little girl of an elder who is molesting her? What hope does this little girl have of getting out of that situation? Nobody is going to listen to her and probably her own mother unless her mother sees the molesting for herself but in the case of Kendrick, the grandmother still took the side of her molester husband.
More than likely, the father or grandfather or uncle or cousin will shower that little girl with much attention and gifts, making all around her think this is the most wonderful dad or man in the world.
If he showers her with gifts and attention, that will make it ever harder for her to come forward with what is happening to her.
When it’s a close family friend, she is put in the very same situation. It takes so much courage for a girl to come forward with the molestation that more than likely, she won’t come forward because she knows ahead of time that she won’t be listened to. It’s only when the molestation is outside of the religion, is when she has any possibility of getting justice.
I asked my husband about why the elders are told to get in touch with the branch if there is an accusation of abuse and he absolutely doesn’t agree with that. He said he feels that when a child is abused, that they should not go to the elders but to the police right away to gather evidence etc. but when I said to him “what if you were an elder and another elder told you that he has a problem with molestation of his daughter, would you report the molestation to the police to protect the child?” and he said no he wouldn’t. He said it was up to the mother and the child and the man that molested the child should report it. So I said “what if he doesn’t report it?” and my husband insisted he would not report it because of confidentiality.
So, he will say on one side of his mouth, he’d report it and out of the other side of his mouth, he said he wouldn’t and it would be up to the man to report himself. Does that make any sense to anybody? It sure didn’t to me. That is what it is like trying to reason with these men. You can’t.
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
June 21, 2015 at 3:39 pm
Elders will lie, twist the truth and be down right devious.My old man who is the cong secertary tried to say it was a few bad elders in this case, to which i replied ”no its your corupt org and there idiotic rules.”
Reply
SR says:
June 21, 2015 at 6:51 pm
You are awesome C! Back in the 70/80s when I was in a child would not have even been believed. The us/them mentality was so strong that there is no way the adults would have acknowledge that it could have happened. The victim would have been lucky to get away without being punished to bringing reproach on Jehovah. The more that come forward the harder it is going to be for them to deny it. Hopefully some will start to demand protection for their children.
Reply
Kat says:
June 22, 2015 at 2:36 am
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nsw/jehovahs-witnesses-to-appear-before-sex-abuse-royal-commission-20150622-ghue73.html
Jehovah’s Witnesses to appear before sex abuse royal commission in Australia. Starting July 27 2015
Reply
M. says:
June 22, 2015 at 7:33 am
http://childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/2015-06/public-hearing-into-the-jehovah%E2%80%99s-witnesses
Reply
Thinking of leaving says:
June 22, 2015 at 3:29 am
Thanks Louise for the insight. I just have to say what a complete utter mess they have created for themselves.
Reply
Ted says:
June 22, 2015 at 10:36 am
According to Matt,5:40, They should not be appealing the
courts decision. In fact they should voluntarily add a few
more K, to the award.
Any chance of them obeying the masters command on that
one? Yeah! when a rocking horse wins the Derby !
“I see no ships” said nelson, putting the spyglass to his
blind eye.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 22, 2015 at 1:56 pm
I am listening to Anthony Morris’ talk on Sunday and he said there were 5 baptized the day before and we are talking about what used to be called the district convention and that low of a number shocked me so I asked my husband how many were baptized at his convention in Green Bay and he said 1 or 2 and he said he was kind of shocked and said there just aren’t that many people coming into the “truth” anymore.
That just cheers me up so much!!!
Reply
JWIntellect says:
June 23, 2015 at 5:01 pm
Wonderful news!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 23, 2015 at 9:58 am
Folks,
As the opening sentence says, the British Broadcasting Corporation did indeed feature this landmark case on its various outlets…..but removed the text article from the red button news service the next day!
They also stopped talking about it on the main programme.
I have officially complained to the BBC about the indecent haste of its removal of this important news from its red button news text service and the main programme.
I now have to wait for about ten days. Oh well! At the very least I was able to explain why this coverage is so important in the main body of my complaint.
I urge any other UK activists out there to do the same. The BBC’s “Panorama” programme investigated child abuse in the JWs a long time ago, and the problem is tragically still in the WTBTS!
I shall let you know what response I get!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Kat says:
June 24, 2015 at 3:16 am
Excelsior do you think the WT was behind this?
Reply
Rosie says:
June 24, 2015 at 4:13 am
Hi Excelsior
I too noticed this – there was mention of it on the lunchtime news bulletin, I missed the 6pm news and then by the 10pm news slot, it was not considered newsworthy, and it did not feature.
This was in stark contrast to days of endless repeated coverage given by the BBC to the Muslim women who fled to Syria because they didn’t like the UK.
I have noted for sometime that anything related to JWs that is mentioned on the BBC is no longer portrayed in the same negative light or given the air time that it used to be and I wondered if there was any WT influence behind this.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 24, 2015 at 7:23 am
Kat and Rosie,
Very good questions, ladies.
It is in the interests of the WTBTS to bury this kind of loss as soon as possible.
I await with interest the answers I receive from the BBC.
I will let you all know what the BBC has to say for itself when I receive their reply.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
sirius says:
June 24, 2015 at 7:40 am
Recent report “Law & Religion UK”, perhaps a deeper insight this case may of had.
http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/2015/06/22/historical-sexual-abuse-and-the-jehovahs-witnesses-a-v-watchtower-bible-and-tract-society/
Credit to Frank Cranmer on 22 June 2015
IMHO
dogstar
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 25, 2015 at 5:46 am
Folks,
I received an unsatisfactory response to my complaint to the BBC. I have simply complained again!
I shall let you know what happens.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 27, 2015 at 6:01 am
Folks,
I have received a second response to my complaint to the BBC about its coverage of this case.
The BBC showed this news item for one hour on the news channel. These were at 15:30, 16:00 and 16:30. One hour! Three features!
It also carried a bulletin on radio 2, 3, 4 and 6 from 5pm to 10pm.
We need the media to spread the message that the WTBTS has not dealt with these horrific cases correctly.
I have complained for a third time. I shall continue to express my sorrow and displeasure that this brave young woman’s historic case was given scant coverage until the BBC, who exist through a licence fee, cover this and future cases adequately.
It is high time the BBC measures up to its public interest obligation and helps expose the disgraceful policies that led to this brave young woman’s, and so many others’ abuse.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Average Joe says:
July 7, 2015 at 12:45 pm
Look at the latest statement from Anthony Morris on JW Broadcasting. At minute 43:33, where they say no one that alleges to have suffered abuse should be deterred from reporting the incident to the authorities.
Could the WT Society be changing their policy?
Reply
Rosie says:
July 23, 2015 at 6:08 am
The BBC news website has today done a feature on JW child abuse, mentioning Karen Morgan’s story.
Here is an extract
“But what is striking about the Jehovah’s Witnesses is their explicit policy of dealing with abuse in-house.
Confidential documents from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Britain – the official name for the Jehovah’s Witnesses – that we have seen are explicit about the best way to deal with such matters being within the congregation.
Nowhere in the hundreds of pages we have seen are elders told that they must go to the police, even if the perpetrator confesses, unless state or national law makes it mandatory to report such allegations.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ UK leadership declined to talk to us for the programme.
Caroline Wyatt’s investigation will be broadcast in Radio 4’s The Report at 20:00 BST on Thursday, 23 July.”
Reply
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The must-read story of a ministerial servant and his wife who woke up in the last few months →
Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant
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Posted on July 6, 2015
Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse
Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse
Governing Body member Tony Morris has used the July 2015 episode of JW Broadcasting to indulge in an astonishing rant about child abuse, seemingly in response to the onslaught of negative publicity Watchtower has faced in recent years.
In his nine-minute statement on the matter, Morris shows two video presentations and reads from a 1982 Awake! magazine in attempting to make the case that Watchtower has always been “pro-active” in making the protection of children a “top priority.”
At one point, Morris unleashes an astonishing swipe at gay people in an apparent attempt to scapegoat homosexuals as being the main perpetrators of child abuse. “It [an Awake! article] warned about homosexual men who prey on and advocate the right to use boys for sex. Shame on them!” he says. (See time stamp 02:49 in the video below.)
The 1982 “‘Chickens’ and ‘Hawks'” article to which Morris alludes is a shameless piece of propaganda blaming homosexuals in general for child prostitution rings that flourished in the 80s and 90s, and which society itself has condemned (such as in the 1994 award-winning documentary “Chicken Hawk: Men Who Love Boys“). (See Wikipedia article)
Morris’ exploitation of this isolated controversy to make a sweeping generalization about gay people represents only the latest example of what appears to be a pattern of homophobic bigotry above and beyond even the scathing condemnation of gays and lesbians found in Watchtower publications.
Last year Morris was voted one of 2014’s craziest “right-wing nutjobs” by Advocate magazine for his baffling comments at last year’s United States Branch Visit, at which he warned of a conspiracy whereby homosexuals are designing tight clothing merely to lust after men’s bodies. (See time stamp 03:20 in the video below.)
And only recently, at the 2015 regional convention, Morris made a not-so-thinly-veiled declaration of his disapproval at Ireland’s recent referendum legalizing same-sex marriage.
Clearly Morris has an axe to grind against homosexuals for reasons best known to himself, but that he should mobilize his bigotry against gays in defense of the organization’s outrageous record on mishandling child abuse is bewildering to say the least.
Head in the sand
Homophobic scapegoating aside, Morris’ comments are a fascinating example of the organization’s “head in the sand” approach in the face of mounting media scrutiny of Watchtower’s child abuse track record.
This strategy was most recently deployed by Stephen Lett, who used a recorded “morning worship” speech to claim that media attention on the issue was nothing but “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
As much as activists like myself desperately wish there to be no problem in this area, and as much as we yearn for JW children to be protected, various facts are well-documented and glaringly obvious, namely:
◾Watchtower has been found legally responsible for its mishandling of child abuse in courts of law on several occasions in two different countries (see articles on Candace Conti, Jose Lopez and the latest UK high court judgment), in some cases being ordered to pay multimillion dollar damages for their negligence
◾Watchtower gathers and holds information concerning an unknown number of pedophiles, thought to number into the thousands, on a database. Watchtower admitted the existence of the database in a 2002 fax to the BBC, and it lost the Jose Lopez case in part because it refused to divulge the contents of the database in that particular trial. (See this Huffington Post interview video.)
◾Watchtower publications do not urge parents to report allegations of child abuse to authorities in all instances
◾Watchtower elders have been criticized for covering up instances of child abuse from the authorities, as in the cases of Mark Sewell, Jonathan Rose and Gordon Leighton
◾Watchtower instructions to elders in the 2010 Shepherd the Flock of God book and subsequent instructional letters uphold the “two witness rule,” whereby if there is no witness to an allegation of child molestation (or no allegation from a second victim is forthcoming) elders are to “leave matters in Jehovah’s hands,” as the following scan clearly shows
◾Watchtower instructions to elders also maintain the position that the branch office, not the police, should be the first to hear of a report of abuse, and that past child molestation does not necessarily bar someone from serving as an elder in the congregation
child-sex-abuseNone of the above pressing issues are addressed or even alluded to in Morris’ nine-minute statement. Instead he heaps praise on the organization for taking “a decisive stand,” for being “pro-active,” and for making the safeguarding of children a “top priority.”
A reputation to be proud of?
Morris even summons the gall to claim: “We are proud of our reputation in this regard.” Irrespective of what Morris or other Governing Body members may think of their handling of child abuse, if there is one thing beyond dispute in this area, it is that Watchtower’s reputation is not one to be proud of.
One possible strategy Morris might have employed if he had an ounce of humility would be to throw his hands up and admit that, like other organizations, Watchtower was simply caught off guard at a time when the threat posed by child abuse wasn’t fully understood.
Instead, Morris adopts the reverse approach by suggesting the organization was always ahead of the game while secular authorities were floundering and “somewhat naive” as to the magnitude of the problem.
As an example of Watchtower’s foresight he parades the “landmark” 1982 Awake! magazine as highlighting the scourge of child abuse over thirty years ago. But it should go without saying that it is one thing to highlight child abuse as a problem, but another thing entirely to offer effective advice.
For example, the article in that magazine titled “To End Child Abuse” gives the following advice, few aspects of which can be considered especially relevant…
◾“[The bible] calls for close communication between parent and child”
◾“[Psychologists] say parents must be fair and set good examples, but children need regulations and discipline”
◾Sex education promotes masturbation and homosexuality. “Regardless of the pros and cons of sex education, the hard fact is the tremendous increase in child prostitution, sodomy, pornography and incest.”
◾“In God’s due time all who embrace his kingdom under Christ will become able to keep this law of love perfectly… This is the only way, the final way, to end child abuse.”
Watchtower’s 1982 guidance on protecting children from predators thus called for (1) better communication between parents and children, (2) strong parental discipline, (3) less sex education and (4) God’s kingdom. This advice, claims Morris, “straightforwardly addressed” the issue and, combined with subsequent magazine articles can be considered as exonerating Watchtower.
What Morris doesn’t mention is that not one of the magazine articles on child abuse published over the last few decades specifically tell Witness parents to go to the authorities with any and all allegations of abuse, which is surely the first priority in the wake of a crime of such magnitude being perpetrated. One 1993 Awake! article even goes so far as to suggest that, in certain cases, “the legal system may offer little hope of successful prosecution.” (Awake! 1993 10/8 page 9)
Morris attempts to throw up a smokescreen early in his presentation by asserting: “Our policy as an organization is that one professing to be a victim, or his parents, should never be discouraged from reporting the incident to the appropriate authorities.” But this is nothing more than a play on words, and a deliberate attempt to deceive.
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath of an attack
True, Watchtower doesn’t expressly dissuade parents from going to the authorities, but it doesn’t persuade them either. Morris thus overtly relies on the ignorance of his audience regarding the nuances of Watchtower’s policies in an attempt to dupe them into thinking reporting is encouraged, even though the organization has yet to issue such instructions to elders despite repeated courtroom defeats.
At best, Watchtower literature over the decades has taught children to be able to identify predators and report such ones to their parents – the most recent example of which is the Caleb and Sophia cartoon presented by Morris in this video.
But teaching children to resist predators is only a fraction of any meaningful, effective child-safeguarding policy. The whole reason why child abuse is so evil is precisely because, for obvious reasons, children will always be vulnerable in the face of any sufficiently determined and opportunistic predatory pedophile, irrespective of how much resistance they put up.
Any child safeguarding policy worth its salt must thus adequately address what to do in the aftermath of an attack so that pedophiles are swiftly apprehended, and this is precisely where Watchtower falls woefully short. Parents are not told to go straight to the authorities by elders in every instance, they are merely informed that this is their “responsibility.”
Throw into the mix the perception that child abuse is a sin that the elders have a remit to investigate, the importance of “waiting on Jehovah,” the stigmatization of taking your “brother” to court, and fears surrounding slander and false accusations, and the likelihood of the police being left out of the loop entirely becomes all too apparent.
Worse than you think
I recently found myself in a phone conversation with a BBC journalist regarding Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse. I expressed to her my frustration at the perception among Witnesses and Watchtower apologists that so-called “apostates” like myself are exaggerating the problem of child abuse.
I told her that, if anything my colleagues and I are understating the magnitude of the problem, because some of the horrendous stories we hear about privately simply cannot be publicized for various reasons.
She replied: “Welcome to the world of journalism.” This, apparently, is the challenge all journalists face in covering important stories where the full grisly horror of what is happening simply cannot be revealed for a myriad of issues including privacy, court orders and so on.
Tony Morris and the Governing Body may desperately want there to be no problem regarding child abuse, but as the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire. When you add up the relentless stream of child abuse reports in the press, including several clear instances where Watchtower has been found guilty and ordered to pay eye-watering sums in compensation, it is clear that, far from being ahead of the game, the organization is ablaze with this problem.
And documented evidence in the organization’s own instructions to elders leaves the Governing Body red-handed in not taking child abuse seriously enough by considering it a sin first, and a crime second.
For all his bluster, boasting and outrageous gay-bashing, the frustration and desperation of Tony Morris and his fellow Governing Body members is becoming painfully obvious.
Putting their hands over their ears and saying “la, la, la” in the face of serious accusations of child safeguarding negligence may work for them personally, but this juvenile charade only adds to their culpability as court after court finds Watchtower negligent. And growing numbers of Jehovah’s Witnesses are seeing straight through it.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Rawstory: Jehovah’s Witness leader promotes child safety cartoon with homophobic rant
◾Freethinker: JW chief targets gays in child abuse video
◾Pink News: Jehovah’s Witness Leader, “homosexuals” are child abusers
◾Taze.co: Jehovah’s Witnesses link Homosexuality to Child Abuse in official Broadcast, like it’s 1979
◾JWvictims: The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses Blame Homosexuals for the Pedophilia in Their Religion
◾Stephen Lett slams “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” concerning child abuse record
◾After his branch visit performance, is “Tight Pants Tony” now a liability for the Governing Body?
◾“We will decide who is a predator!” – New Watchtower Instructions to Elders on Child Abuse
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
A full video rebuttal of the JW Broadcasting episode in question is forthcoming, and will be embedded at the foot of this article when complete.
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65 Responses to Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant
Newer Comments →
dontknowwheretogo says:
July 6, 2015 at 7:15 am
It is not so much WHAT iTony is ranting about that I enjoy but the fact that he IS ranting, and ranting way more than the other GB members.
He reveals his true colors, what is in his heart (a scripture came to mind but I forget) and it is becoming clearer and clearer this man is not “right” and has “issues”.
He will become a valuable tool in waking up others, ironic isn’t?
Lloyd, perhaps you should call him to tell him he is deluded and helping others wake up to TTATT…oh wait…
Any more details on your chat with the BBC? It is annoying there is not more coverage…Conti case gets settled and there is hardly a peep from any mediastreams…
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
July 6, 2015 at 7:43 am
I have a hypothesis, that others may feel free to shoot down, but seeing these types of incendiary statements from the GB makes me think that this may be a reaction to their own irrelevance.
I was indoctrinated with the idea that JWs were so special and important that Armageddon would come when they would draw the anger of the nations, etc. and be persecuted. That has not happened.
I often think this is some type of strategy (whether conscious or not) by the GB to get the world to notice them. I can imagine being in the 21st century as a JW beginning to realize that most people don’t really care what JWs think, stand for, etc.
What do you do when you seem irrelevant? What do you do when the promised persecution/Great Tribulation has not come? Well, maybe you get in people’s faces and say controversial things and try to create the situation. Maybe they are trying to draw the ire of the world and spin that as persecution. If this is their strategy we should expect more and more controversial public statements and doubling down on controversial doctrines (e.g. blood, shunning, etc.).
Of course I could be wrong…
Reply
Badshah says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:38 am
I don’t have a credible source for this, but I read ‘somewhere’ that your explanation was exactly why Rutherford came up with the no blood policy, to draw the ire of the world and spark persecution. I wish I could find where I read that.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
July 7, 2015 at 3:12 pm
When I was in the religion I really thought, as did many other former Jehovah’s Witnesses, that we were truly a “theatrical spectacle to the world,” but I’ve since come to the immediate realization since abandoning the organization that, quite frankly, no one gives a damn about Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are an irrelevant, insignificant bunch to the world that no one even thinks about. The idea of being the center of attention was merely an illusion.
Your hypothesis isn’t too far fetched. It sounds credible to me. The nations are not paying any attention to Jehovah’s Witnesses and so their leaders are attempting to garner this attention by making provocative and incendiary comments about extremely sensitive issues.
I think one of the reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses were so intensely anti-Catholic in its early days was because of its own less than prominent status in comparison to the Catholic Church. The Governing Body and the Watchtower in no way, shape, or form have the kind of influence and power that the Pope and the Catholic Church have in the world, and so it would only seem right in their eyes to attack the big man on campus in order to gain some clout themselves.
Reply
holy Connoli says:
July 8, 2015 at 6:02 am
@JWintellect. I thought about it the same as you regarding the Catholic Church and the WT viscous attacks on Catholicism. They attacked the Catholics the Most bc they were the Biggest! The when the Catholics attacked back or defended themselves it somehow gave “credibility” to the WT! They could claim and argue see, we are being persecuted..we are somebody! See! They hate us for preaching the Word of God and we are the ONLY ONES doing it! SEE! We are significant! IN Reality when you leave the WT you realize nobody really cares or gives a Rat’s Arse about the JW’s or what they teach or say especially since 100% of their prophecies or predictions have NEVER come true! Not 1 thing they ever uttered in prophecy has proven true.
SOmetimes when I am with people or business friends we may see somew Jw’s wandering on the streets and I say look! ARe those JW’s? WHat are they doing? They look lost out here, what do they believe? Hardly a reaction from y associates or friends. A few may say, Oh I have a cousin or a work mate who is a JW. Or, Oh yea they thin the end of the World is coming soon, Or..are they the ones who don’t salute the flag or don’t take blood transfusions? Nobody takes them serious or that they have this great ALL IMPORTANT message? Tp the majority of humanity they are insignificant despite what they thin about themselves.
Reply
Criticus says:
July 16, 2015 at 6:06 am
(2nd attempt to get this posted – am I blacklisted? If yes, please let me know why. Thanks.)
Remember the “arrow in the running priests’s butt”-pic? Or the WTS’s insolent “God will destroy you and your Nazi party”-letter to Hitler? That’s what u r talking about. Now, THAT drew some irate clergymen’s or politicians’ attention, and triggered the wave of persecutions that dropped on the JWs during the beginning of the previous century. It was all self-inflicted, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then, they cheered: “Hoorai! WE are the real deal, we are the ‘true Christians’, bec. Jesus said ‘ You will be persecuted’ ” – but stop: Jesus also said (and the JW ignore this): “You will be persecuted BECAUSE OF MY NAME!” That’s the difference. JW did not get persecuted bec. they were Christians, but bec. they blindly followed the manmade rules of erroneous little men who deluded themselves into believing they have godlike authority. That’s why in Germany for example, the JW (formerly called “Earnest Bible Students”) are NOT considered as “exemplary” when it comes to resistance to the Nazis, not like Bonhöffer, Niemöller, the “Red Chapel” or the “Solf-Circle” for example, who suffered bec. of adherence to their Christian principles, not to manmade org-rules. Well, lets’ see when their “in your face”-tactics will bear some fruits – some real bitter ones.
Reply
Faithful Witness says:
July 6, 2015 at 7:55 am
As a non-JW victim of child sexual abuse myself, I know how hard it is to report abuse to your own parents. I was not subjected to the intimidation faced by JW kids, and it still took me 4 years to say anything to my mom. When I brought this topic up with my (now) JW mother after the Candace Conti verdict, she replied with accusations of greed on the part of alleged victims.
Blame the victim? These ARE Witnesses of Jehovah… (or WERE, until they started making up stories about those who are supposed to be protecting them…??)
How can you be proud to represent an organization that refuses to protect the most innocent and helpless among them?
I continue to watch my family get more divided, as my parents & sister surrender their minds & lives to this high-control religious organization. If an adult wants to give up their worldly ways and join a rule and work-based religion, that is one thing. Children of JW’s have no say in the matter.
Reply
Cognitive Loop says:
July 6, 2015 at 9:17 am
Good to see you again, FW. Hope things get better for you and yours. Plus I am very glad to see that you stood up well against the “elderettes” and their continued attempts to get you to come back to the indoctrination-fest, aka meetings.
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Mama Joy says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:05 am
Um….When was pedophillia the “new morality”?
Also, saying you protect kids doesn’t make it so.
I was told to not tell on my Dad to child services because then he would be taken to jail and it would be my fault.
Then the scripture about not taking a brother to court was used and I was told I would go live with worldly people and if anything happened to my Dad in prison it would be all my fault and I would be blood guilty in Jehovah’s eyes.
The elders knew and said I needed to be more obedient. I had to secretly video record him before they would do anything…., then they made it their mission to punish me for getting my Dad disfellowshipped. They sent spies (concerned sisters) to grill me for anything they could pin on me.
This video sounds good, like they actually help children, but the reality is way different.
If you try to go to “proper authorities” (law enforcement or them only???) they will insist they handle the issue. And believe me they will talk to the person and that’s it. Your child will have to go to the meetings with their abuser and then as a parent if you tell the police, they will disfellowship you (for imprisoning a brother and not going through Gods proper channels).
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tosch says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:12 am
I can’t help thinking that, when Toni Morris stresses the ‘appropriate authorities’, he might have a different definition in mind than we do. By adding ‘appropriate’, he seems to somehow include the elders… or am I wrong here?
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K. W. Burggraf says:
July 11, 2015 at 7:29 pm
No, You’re absolutely right. I picked up on that immediately. I’m sure he means not only “including” the elders but “excluding” the police. Isn’t this stressed in the elders’ handbook for dealing with such situations?
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Cognitive Loop says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:30 am
He states, “However, to take advantage of innocent young ones is absolutely despicable. As a religious organization, we have taken a decisive stand against such behavior” (approx 40 second mark).
Couple of things:
Firstly, they made make taking advantage of young ones into an art form. Someone quoted a gov body member that some child of 5yo had been ‘pioneering since 4yo and was now still pioneering at age 10′. Also, teenagers should have their drivers licenses used as leverage, in order to get dunked into a lifetime of servitude to this real estate corporation.
Secondly, the legal weasel-language is strong in that second quoted sentence. “As a religious organization, we cherry pick which scriptures back up our stance” would be much more accurate. They use Deuteronomy 19:15 to hold up as original two witness “law”, which had everything to do with REAL ESTATE, not rape. Yet if you page over to Deuteronomy 22:25, it actually discusses rape and that the woman needs no other witness if she was somewhere where no one would hear her screams. “[…] only the man who has done this shall die.”
But the real good news is this: they are feeling it, as far as the blowback of their misuse of the scriptures and horrible treatment of victims goes. The internet is shining a light on these virtual cockroaches (the gov body being the topmost ones) and their heinous behavior towards victims, including courtroom behavior, such as Gordon Leighton case, where elders refused to state the man confessed to molesting the child! And whole congregations standing behind the guilty elder, only on his side of the courtroom, leaving the victim and family to stand alone.
– – –
“Courtroom shenanigans
Rose arrived for his trial at Manchester Crown Court with an entourage of Witness supporters, including several elders. But this inundation of fans did not impress the judge.
With the trial threatening to descend into a circus on only the first day, the judge ordered that the court’s public gallery and even the waiting area should be off-limits to all but family and those involved in the proceedings.
Despite this ruling, certain elders are said to have ignored orders by trying to sit beside Rose in a public show of support – even though this was to lead to their ejection from the courtroom. The pleas of one elder to present evidence in support of Rose were similarly denied after complaints from the victims’ side.
Watchtower representatives emerge
A surprising feature of the trial was the arrival of two Watchtower representatives from bethel towards the end of the first week. Both were relatively young, perhaps in their thirties. Their identities are as yet unknown.
The victims’ side looked on in disgust as, for the remaining days of the trial, these representatives sat firmly on the defendant’s side of the courtroom, consulting with Rose and making it clear as to on whose side their allegiance fell.
Only when confronted emotionally by one of the victims’ family members on the final day of the trial did they accept that their behavior in supporting Rose so openly was inappropriate. After this exchange, they elected to sit in a more neutral position from that point onwards.”
– – –
^ That ain’t even the half of it, as they say.
Yup, the Watchtower sure hates deplorable behavior and stands firmly against child abuse/molesters.
edit – Not sure why my replies are not coming through. Hoping this one will.
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Simon Kestral says:
July 6, 2015 at 11:11 am
Good point about Deuteronomy 22:25. A two witness requirement does not apply to sexual crimes. The same chapter says rape is like murder, where there may be no witnesses at all. Nevertheless, the one found guilty is put to death.
Common sense says a two witness requirement cannot apply to sexual crimes. I don’t expect much common sense from the GB though. They claim to be the “faithful and discreet slave” without consulting the master.
Not much common sense in that.
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Cognitive Loop says:
July 7, 2015 at 1:12 pm
They have zero proof that they are indeed chosen by god. Funny how a child who is raped must produce two witnesses against his/her attacker, and yet the Gov Bod need no proof that they are who they claim to be.
Terry over at JWN pointed out that “Annointed” is an interesting title for these Brooklyn-based false prophet clowns to lay claim to: Hebrew translates the word to “Messiah”, and in Greek it translates as “Christós” or Christ.
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Queen Elsa says:
July 8, 2015 at 1:18 am
That behavior makes me sick… I’m at a loss as to what to do for my two young children being raised in my once loved beliefs… :(
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Brad says:
July 6, 2015 at 8:32 am
This is becoming more laughable from the perspective of those of us who have left and have lifted the veil.
Sadly, it becomes sadder and sadder these attempts by the GB in their literature, broadcasts, morning worships, cartoons, and letters to elders have little to no effect on the masses because of their minds.
Unless something changes in the court systems the WT will continue to shell out payments that will hurt it but not cripple it, and they will continue to grow and deceive more people.
I want to post links to all of these articles on my public social media pages since I know all of my former friends check my page from time to time but this will drive them right away since they will see it as Satan’s deceptive propaganda. He is the ruler of this world and controls the media after all with his master puppeteer skills..
The WT is doing the only thing they know how: portray an image of what they want to be believe and instill fear if you believe anything else.
Hope change is coming some time soon. As the org grows, so will the amount of children being taken advantage of.
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Jerry O Connor says:
July 6, 2015 at 9:30 am
Hello to all.
Morris is a homophobic gob shite! Cracks are most definitely appearing in watchtower. Trying to justify a non cooperation with the police. “He doth protest too much” would seem to apply to tight pants. Could Morris be the weakest link in the weakest chain? The more the public here what vitriol he spouts, the better. Still watchtower hides child rapists and its hands are covered in the blood of those murdered with the heinous blood issue. They make me mad
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Kat says:
July 6, 2015 at 11:10 am
Once again they use a foolish picture of a small girl, dolly in hand telling her “father” or some man a firm NO! As if that would work, in your own bedroom, with you fully dressed and I could go on. That is not an accurate portrayal of the problem, and as usual it will put the blame for sexual assault on the victim. Katie darling, did you tell Elder Jackson a firm NO! when he asked to see under your dress? Yes, brothers I did, I told him NO! and said Jehovah doesn’t like this! Good girl, your free to go and Elder Jackson you too may go and geez Willie, next time hit up a worldly girl!!!! You guys are making our job tougher than it needs be…makes me sick but that is the way my case went.
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Daniel O'Brien says:
July 6, 2015 at 12:25 pm
Cedars, that was one of the most balanced and clear articles that you have ever written on this subject.
A very bright light needs to be continuously shone on this problem if it is ever to be eradicated.
Well done!
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Jill Hileman says:
July 6, 2015 at 12:32 pm
Hi Lloyd,
Would you consider taking the above child abuse handling bullet points along with the literature references only and creating a document or article specifically for use in forwarding to Witnesses who are fence-sitting?
If I sent this article as is, it would be immediately ignored, labeled propaganda. But mothers of young children deserve to know these facts, being obscured by the GB.
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Cedars says:
July 7, 2015 at 12:32 am
That’s a good suggestion Jill, thank you. I am considering making a YouTube video of JUST those points with the aim of putting Witnesses in the picture in the face of an apparent determined effort on the part of the Governing Body to misinform on this issue.
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Ted says:
July 6, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Morris’s feigned concern for children is sickening.
Sure they’re worried about Paedophillia in their org.
But mainly because of the bad publicity, and the effect
it will have on recruitment, and possible defection.
Plus the cost of expensive litigation and the threat to
their tax exempt status.
If they were “Genuinely” concerned. They would drop
the two witness rule. It’s entirely inapplicable to a crime
where the perp, goes to great lengths, to make sure
there’ll be no observers. And how cruel to demand from
a distressed child, that they produce such witnesses.
otherwise it’s only their word against another’s .
They have no right nor the appropriate training to subject
children to such a harrowing inquisition. I repeat. If they
we’re genuinely concerned. They would, without further
delay, issue instructions to elders. To immediately hand
over any complaints. To the Police.
Morris’s statement that they are concerned, that even no
“Emotional Harm” should come to a child. Are just empty
words, propaganda. They will fool many. But not those
who are aware, of the methods and motives of this corrupt,
Godless and materialistic org.
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Richard E. Kelly says:
July 6, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Kudos to you, Lloyd. You were definitely in good-fighting form on this post, well armed with the facts on your side. Too bad that cognitive dissonance is alive and well in Watchtower Land, because an article like this should have spawned a mass exodus.
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Grace says:
July 6, 2015 at 4:39 pm
Another great article but god it makes my blood boil.
“We are proud of our reputation in this regard.”
Proud of their reputation!! Incase they hadn’t noticed, their reputation is that they hide child molesters & throw victims under the bus to save their deluded reputation.
Also, when a dirty old man rapes a little girl. It just has to be the gays fault. (sarcasm).
These royal hyenas are just clutching at anything. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is an attempt to get their propaganda in before the Australian Royal Commission comes out & airs the dirty laundry that has been soaking in the mire for so long. On the 27th of July, the hearing will be aired to the public. I hope that those that have secretly suffered will come out & speak. My feelings are that they wouldn’t be pursuing it if there wasn’t enough evidence to see a problem that needs addressing.
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David says:
July 6, 2015 at 4:56 pm
Tony just follow the usual cult protocol. They can condemn no JWs to death if they do not acknowledge
the GB as the only channel between God and Mankind (role according to the Bible belonging only to Christ) but feel persecuted to the slightest criticism. But I think this is a win for the “apostate” community. The GB will be forced to change their policies and report pedophiles to authorities. At least we should be happy that children will be more protected. I guess next we have to teach the GB and make people more aware that people should not be ostracised if the choose to leave their denominations just like they want to be free to preach their half truths.
It is also strange that Tony feel persecuted when JW.org shows clear signs of wealth. It displays a new suit on every appearance and the usual “godfather” style pinky ring.
An appearance radically different then Jesus Christ’s.
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Eric says:
July 6, 2015 at 5:40 pm
Thank you so much Cedars for your articles. Having just woken up from JW mind control in October, I still suffer from ptsd and attacks from my cult personality. I find great comfort and encouragement in your articles and videos. The time and well thought out preparation cannot be undersold. What you are doing is a true service and I thank you for it.
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JWIntellect says:
July 7, 2015 at 3:20 pm
Happy to hear you’ve exited!
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Barb Moor says:
July 6, 2015 at 6:07 pm
Caleb, Sophia! It’s YOUR fault for getting abused; your conscience was too weak! Bad boy! Bad girl!
The new video featuring the animated pair is really sneaky. Yes, kids should run away from predators. BUT, no focus is given on the predators themselves (such as known abusers within the organization). The way it is portrayed on the video, the burden is put on children to prevent abuse, according to their “trained” conscience. It doesn’t illustrate the reality that the parents could be the abusers themselves. It doesn’t show that there are times when it is physically impossible to get away from a predator (Elder Handy in the car group).
And what if the abuser threatens to kill beloved Mommy or Daddy (or baby brother) if Sophia does tell on them? Well, Sophia then has to decide: save them or myself? Sophia loves them so she’ll likely keep quiet, because predators are PROS at manipulation and deceit. This will go on and Sophia will comply with the predator thinking she’s protecting her family. You can picture Sophia in group therapy 15 years later with an addiction to meth to cope with the years of abuse, made worse by listening to talks that will make her think she is guilty for the abuse. All those talks on fornication will make her wonder, was I committing fornication? Why DIDN’T Mommy protect me? Why did Brother Creep give a talk on telling the truth at all times then tell me to lie to my parents?
She will have seen him at assemblies or meetings: maybe even giving a talk about porneia? Poor Sophia: her conscience wasn’t strong enough. She didn’t outwit a cunning adult with years of manipulative skills! And then, why didn’t Jehovah protect her? Was she not worthy of protection, given all the theocratic examples of children who were spared suffering ‘because they listened’? Apparently not, because it happened to her. Sophia will end up depressed, lonely, fearful, and likely lacking in any sort of faith. If she even remains in the organization (she’ll have so little self-worth she may stay in it out of fear), she’ll become one of the “weak” ones looked down upon by the strong because she’s not perky and happy and glowing with the good news. She’ll go downhill, while the way this organization works, the abuser will be promoted.
Ironically, the watchers of this stupid video will likely be praising the organization for its helpfulness and loving concern, ignoring that Elder Handy and Brother Creep are right there in their hall, maybe sitting next to them at meeting. Other elders in the hall may know, but they won’t warn parents. Because the loving organization that has cared SO much for SO long has said not to divulge those little details. You’re on your own, Sophia and Caleb! Good luck with that!
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John says:
July 8, 2015 at 12:49 am
Barb, that’s a fantastic comment.x
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Jean says:
July 11, 2015 at 9:26 am
Well said, Barb. The hideous monster in the video is sofar from what actually happens, it makes me wonder why the GB actually believes this is “the truth”. The onus of responsibility is always put fairly and squarely on the shoulders of Joe Publisher, not on those making the policies. Will they ever wake up?
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Barb Moor says:
July 6, 2015 at 6:28 pm
Boy, does Tony get heated up about homosexuals, doesn’t he? Latent much?
Seriously, he deliberately misleads the definition of a homosexual by implying that a homosexual is a pedophile. Big difference: the homosexuals I know have no interest in little boys or little girls.
It’s a cheap shot on Tony’s part (I feel I can be informal now that we are on a chatty basis via his constant tv appearances). His self-righteousness is disgusting. And really, his lies reinforce the same abusive tactic that predators use: listen to ME and no one else.
These people have no morals. Shame on the lying org, the congregations who hide sexual abusers, the elders who know what abuse has happened and have the benefit of protecting THEIR kids but not everyone else’s. Shame on the parents for trusting this org and letting some out-of-touch corporate shill tell them how to parent and tell them their kids are safe. And shame on Tony Morris for lying to children by acting like he cares.
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Thinking of leaving says:
July 6, 2015 at 10:43 pm
Interestingly when I was awakening from my indoctrination and also becoming increasingly aware of the sex abuse problem, I was still an active publisher at the time. I thought that I would put it out there and gauge the reaction I would get from the R&F. Out of the dozen people I tried I couldn’t find one who said “I feel sorry for those victims and I hope they get the help and support they need.” The replies I got were mainly media hype and one even refused to admit the news report was real. The reply that really stands out in my mind is “don’t read overseas news papers because this is going to confuse me”. Yup child abuse can be put down to overseas news papers confusing me. About sums it all up really.
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bobow says:
July 7, 2015 at 2:26 am
I have the same observation. every bro just denied the story, without even reading about it.
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holy Connoli says:
July 8, 2015 at 6:18 am
@bobow: I still have a few JW friends I talk with sometimes or do some business with. When I bring up the Child Abuse issue to them and how rampant it is and the BAD 2 witness rule they seem unaware of how bad it is or they say something like Oh yes, I am gald those guys get DF’d! We have ZERO tolerance for anyone doing that! I point out the WT seems to protect them bc the 2 witness rule is impossible to enforce and they say well the bible does say that! I don’t think the R&F have any Idea how bad it really is.
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Meredith J says:
July 10, 2015 at 4:26 am
Yes, I left for exactly the same reasons as you. No one cared. I did and so did my husband but all the Witnesses could think of was that we shouldn’t talk to others about such things because it looks bad for Jehovah and it must be from apostates. They could not have cared less about the innocent young lives that had been ruined and that the Society had caused all that misery and cruelty themselves to the victims. You see to the Watchtower Society there are no victims. Unforgivable.
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Syl says:
July 7, 2015 at 3:11 am
Great analysis and rebuttal Lloyd. What you do is useful. Thanks for the time and effort you invest in this.
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chatpal says:
July 7, 2015 at 4:25 am
the thing about the JW’s I know family included, in the U.S, is that they are not aware of any child abuse nor other sorts of crimes as this, they never hear any media coverage on any of these abuse cases. these people work, sleep shop, go to meetings and service and watch kids shows or home improvement shows or netflix or very little tv at all. They would have no idea why he was bringing up that article, orthe subject.I can hear my own mother , if hearing his comments, say” well the society must be preparing for a rise in child abuse issues, they are always ahead of the game” as if there is none and there might be in the near future. she literally thinks they are able to see future trends. its sickening, she finds no fault with these men, yet says that they do not claim to be perfect and ‘we do not worship them’ such mental hypocrisy she displays against herself, for Id be willing to bet my right arm she knows deep down in her heart, something isnt right , after all she often says things that are her own opinion, and does things contrary to what the jw suggestions are, and even gets told about it, [like going up to a door when there is a sign that says beware of dog, and then giving ‘jehovah’ the credit for her not getting bit,lol] but she being 73 has been in this so long it would make not a bit of difference to change now.
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Barb Moor says:
July 8, 2015 at 7:47 pm
Respectfully I disagree. JW’s secretly watch ALL the televisions shows that are “inappropriate” most of the time: they just don’t tell. They aren’t sitting home watching JW.ORG except to be able to SAY that they watch it (likely on fast forward). Most are just as fake as the GB.
And child abuse stories are everywhere, even a commercial for Law and Order SVU makes it pretty clear. They can’t say they didn’t know when every storyline in just about every show or book has child abuse in it.
But I totally get what you are saying: most people know deep down things aren’t adding up, but they are afraid to admit it out loud for the backlash it’d cause.
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Bart says:
July 7, 2015 at 9:12 am
I will never forget this guy. He’s the one that really changed my perception (lost respect) of the governing body a last year at the annual meeting and his infamous tight pants and spanks talk. But it wasn’t those things in particular that turned me off as much as his overall demeanor and his smug approach to those who aren’t worshiping the way he thinks they should, or who’s parenting efforts were not good enough to keep their children in the truth, etc. I was disgusted by it all, and continue to be. That day, when I saw him speak for the very first time, I thought, ‘How can this possibly be God’s chosen group of men to lead us all?’. I lost a lot of faith in the “faithful and discreet slave” that day, despite the other governing body members’ loving and warm demeanor. The fact that this loony is in the group speaks volumes, and while some JW’s laugh it off or downplay his antics by means of memes on Instagram or what have you, most people are so blind that they think he’s brave for calling things like they are, just like Peter was constantly an outspoken member of Jesus disciples. Since that time, I’ve read Crisis of Conscience and honestly it sent me into a bit of depression, learning things that would shake any Witness’s faith to the core. I literally cried for that man when I realized he died several years ago, and all that he had gone through. It left me feeling alone too, and I still feel like there is no easy way out or in.
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Paul says:
July 8, 2015 at 2:14 am
Bart,
I felt the same way after reading Crisis of Conscience, but that quickly lead me to reading his second book and that explained a future course that made sense to me. I have not been to a meeting since, and I am determined to forge a new life free from the hypocrisy and falsity of the GB. If you think Morris is weird what the heck is Lett about?
If Jehovah is choosing these guys the the world is in deep doo doo. My guess is that they are actually the man of lawlessness, the evil slave.
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Excelsior! says:
July 7, 2015 at 10:48 am
Bart,
Welcome to your freedom, sir! If you are still a person of faith, then take comfort in the teaching that Jesus is always with you.
If you are like me, an atheist, then it’s time to find your own path.
Either way, you are well rid of any association with an organisation with such an appalling record.
I wish you the best of luck, Bart.
Folks, Anthony has given us such an excellent response to the child abuse scandal in the WTBTS! He is proud of their record, and of his involvement and support of it. The latest Caleb and Sophia video is disgraceful. Telling a manipulative sociopathic paedophile to stop will work out fine!!!!!
This second attempt to deflect proper scrutiny of the WTBTS’ child abuse policies and cover ups will be a powerful recruitment sergeant for our cause.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
I hope that this idiot is called to defend his policies in court some time soon.
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Freedom says:
July 7, 2015 at 7:27 pm
Dear Anthony Morris: Homosexuals do not sexually abuse children. Pedophiles sexually abuse children. There is a difference. Perhaps your research department should educate itself. Numerous organizations state the following: 1 out of 5 girls will be sexually abused as a child while 1 out of 20 boys will be sexually abused as a child. It would appear that a girl is at a higher risk – so who is abusing the girls? If we follow your logic that homosexuals abuse little boys, then heterosexuals abuse little girls. Therefore, shame on all heterosexual men. I look forward to your next Awake article condemning “the heterosexuals” for their deviant, disgusting behavior. I also look forward to another one of your broadcasts where you assure all JWs that the organization does everything it can to protect the congregation from “the heterosexuals”.
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ES says:
July 7, 2015 at 8:23 pm
Very well written and accurate; thank you Cedars. You’re correct in that Tony is way off on describing WT position in the topic of child abuse. A close family member to me is currently fighting a legal battle over the issue of child sex abuse within the JW org, and my devout parents have acknowledged that the society has handled these child cases quite poorly. I’m curious to know what the thought while watching this episode of JWB.
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ruthlee says:
July 8, 2015 at 1:32 am
this mans demeanor disturbs me i try to be objective and hope he has our best interests at heart but ive come to realise all this talk and exposure is just that before there is genuine decisive action these dishonourable men will shoot themselves in the foot meanwhile we look on pained and insulted i hope one day that i can roar with laughter at such feeble nonsense but at the moment things are a little too painful i do beleive GOD will have the final say and it will be heard by everyone there will be no excuses ha ha bring it on
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Paul says:
July 8, 2015 at 2:06 am
It is just another example of avoiding the real issues and putting up straw men and knocking them down with old magazines that do not address the issues either. Here are old men who are totally out of touch with reality because they believe their own imaginary world.
Unfortunately virtually zero active JWs will pay any attention to facts from outside sources, so he can spout rubbish and avoid reality and all the sheep will bleat in total (ignorant) approval. Till an avalanche of bad press engulfs them they will refuse to admit the mountain of evidence.
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David says:
July 8, 2015 at 3:20 am
He gives a distorted impression of the matter. The broadcast starts with persecution to prepare the minds of the listeners. Then it just gives a one sided account of the issue. They criticise other religions but for what I can see they have no decency. When something happen to others they are quick to share articles. When jw.org is criticised then the media are of the devil.
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anonymous says:
July 8, 2015 at 5:00 am
Tony Morris skipped over the article in the June 22,1982 titled “Rape at Home” which was about incest. This is what one of the paragraphs said, quoting from an outside source and even giving us the page of that outside source:
“On page 129 of the book “The Death of Innocence”, we read: “Among prostitutes, the frequency of sexual molestation in childhood is 92 percent; 67 percent of them experience some form of incestuous assault…At least 75 percent of he runaways, on the national average, are escaping incestuous abuse. The same figures apply to cases of adolescent drug addiction: About 70 percent are victims of incest.””
What is so ironic is that the June 22, 1982 Awake has in the very next article about child abuse an article “To End Child Abuse” and this is what it had to say was the remedy for this abuse:
“They know that bad family conditions cause children to run away from home, and that a high percentage of runaways end up on the streets and in prostitution and pornography and suffer appalling abuse. Some are escaping incest at home, homes broken by divorce, chronic conflicts with parents, lack of loving attention, and some are swayed by their peers. Whatever specific causes, the remedy is the healing of family breakdown. So say the experts. So does the Bible. It calls for close communication between parent and child.”
So, the Society has the first article about incest being the cause of most runaways who turn to prostitution and drugs and are abused by child pornography and the very next article saying that the remedy is better family communication between child and parent and they ignore the fact that the preceding article said that most children are abused by incest first before running away and getting abused. Do these people even read what they write?????
Also, I think the reason Tony Morris skipped the incest article is because he was hoping that most people would not have that old Awake magazine where they could double check what he was saying in that video about the incest article in that June Awake. There is absolutely no advice to help parents or young ones to be protected by pedophiles in those article and there is no advice to report abusers or rapists to the police. It is a useless rag that belongs in the garbage can and not “groundbreaking”.
Another reason Morris skipped the incest article is because what if Sophia’s father was her abuser???? According to the incest article, most children run away from incest and get abused because of incest!!!
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Meredith J says:
July 8, 2015 at 5:23 am
This Governing Body member has obviously been informed about the upcoming Royal Commission Into Child Abuse in Australia. The Catholic Church has already been through the ringer for the past year about it as all their dirty washing has been hanging on the line for all to see and now the Witnesses have formally been told that they are next on the chopping block as from July 27th, 2015. I’ll bet he is worried that it will look like they are not trying enough to counteract the problem. It will be so interesting to see the outcome of the commission. They will probably expect to look exonerated but I think they will be shocked at the level of scrutiny.
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Brad says:
July 8, 2015 at 9:06 am
I think we are all forgetting something. Think back for a moment to the days when you were a faithful witness who fully backed the organization and believed in these key points (I know, this is difficult to do):
1. Jehovah is the universal sovereign
2. Jehovah has allowed suffering to continue to prove that he is a loving god and his way is the best way.
3. There have always been some of Satan’s seed trying to incorporate themselves into Jehovah’s earthly organization and even if they last for a little while, eventually they will be found out and Jehovah will be the judge of them in the end.
4. The Governing Body cannot ignore bible principles, such as the 2 witness rule.
If you were on the other side of this argument, still a faithful witness, and you presented these 4 points and someone still argued with you, you just throw up your hands and that’s it, there is nothing more you can say or do but leave it in Jehovah’s hands and say how sad it is that some people like touching children.
This information continues to reinforce in us that we made the right decision and we are happy to be no part of this organization, but time and time again, when we have them absolutely dead to rights with a straight flush nuts hand in a game of hold ’em, a witness will still have that cognitive dissonance rear it’s ugly head and make them believe this is an attack by Satan and his minions.
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Excelsior! says:
July 8, 2015 at 10:03 am
Lloyd,
Can we find a way to ask Morris just who the “appropriate authorities” are? I believe he is deliberately trying to infer that these “appropriate authorities” are the police, or perhaps child protection services. However, he believes that the “appropriate authorities” are the local body of elders and the Bethel Branch overseeing that country.
Am I wrong in this interpretation? What do you think?
Thank you for an excellent article. Your long term support of victims and precise articles on this dreadful problem are a testament to your good character.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
M. says:
July 8, 2015 at 10:03 am
10 Anti-Gay Myths Debunkedhttp://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/10-myths
Facts About Homosexuality
and Child Molestationhttp://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
Reply
sirius says:
July 8, 2015 at 1:45 pm
Just a thought, perhaps starting a thread on the subject of Common Jehovah’s Witnesses Excuses and Habits.Here’s a few to get started…
1.Read the NWT with an open mind
2.You took the verse out of context
3.Read the following verse
4.Read the verse before that one
5.That KJV is suspicious
6.You must be progressive to understand the NWT
7.Must be an error in the translation
8.What’s your religion?
9.Jehovah knows your actions before you are born but you have free will
IMHO
dogstar
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
July 8, 2015 at 9:35 pm
Why isn’t the FBI breaking down the door at Bethel? How can Watchtower be allowed a secret database of know pedophiles?
I don’t know why but I expected more damage control. I was hoping to hear they changed their policy about the 2 witness rule for that crime. More than irrelevant references to a 30 year old magazine, lies about an “isolated incident” and a cartoon.
I don’t understand why the secular authorities don’t require the clergy to report child abuse in their congregations. Sure, JWs are shielding pedophiles, but the government allows it and it is the more important problem to attack, IMO.
Very disappointing overall.
Reply
Rosie says:
July 9, 2015 at 4:17 am
Lately a politician “sparked controversy when he appeared to link child abuse with homosexual relationships.” Sound familiar?
There was quite an uproar from the public and local media about this.
As a result the politician is currently being questioned by the police and had to step down from his position.
Reply
Brent says:
July 9, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Its to bad that all the magazines such as the one that Tony shows are not available. They only go back online too 2000. My folks got rid of there old brown volumes 10 years ago as the GB told them to do. Mostly so that there would be no record of there false prophecies and UN NGO status. Its up to the Governing Body to pick which old light they would want you to know about. As long as the GB can go back and pull old literature out why won’t a member under judicial review do the same?
Tony states that he will not go into the legal back and forth which was and will be the reasons for the lawsuit losses in these child abuse case. The real reason is that they by their system in effect and in truth protected child abusers. They are so misleading, yet the rank and file will agree and look no further into the subject being that to do so would be seen as reading apostate literature.
Reply
Hazel says:
July 14, 2015 at 3:12 pm
Information is provided in the CD disk=W.T. Library2012 English edition. Copies of magazines back to the 1970’s.
Reply
anonymousish1987 says:
July 13, 2015 at 8:46 pm
The irony of him focusing on homosexuality when from all I’ve read most of the abuse in the Watchtower is heterosexual. Candace Conti was abused by a MAN. So…he can have several seats. This is so disheartening and angers me so much.
Reply
MrFair says:
July 14, 2015 at 3:29 am
It seems to me that the Caleb and Sophia video shows a lack of understanding of child sex abuse. Note: I myself am not a professional on the subject but simply would like to make some observations.
It would be helpful if child molesters all looked and sounded like the creepy monsters in the video but the reality is that it could be a grandfather, an elder in the congregation or another trusted friend that isn’t overtly creepy. They are monsters but they usually don’t appear that way, which is how they get close to the children in the first place. I wonder why they didn’t put a nice looking man in a tie, a grandfatherly figure, an aunt, etc. in the cartoon? Maybe too incriminating? Not that children should be made to feel paranoid around everyone but it just seems to me that Watchtower thinks that all molesters are unkempt guys in tank tops, drinking beer and acting creepy in public (like the guy in the public service announcement video). Also, it seems that a child saying “stop! Don’t do that!” will not always chase away a molester. In other instances a child may not even understood what has happened until later in life. Could the video create guilt in victims who didn’t take the prescribed steps? Or who did but were molested despite it? That’s what Watchtower used to do to rape victims who didn’t scream. We all agree it’s very important to protect children but we should look to professionals who have a deeper understanding of how to do it. Sad situation… Just a few thoughts…
Reply
anonymous says:
July 14, 2015 at 4:55 pm
@Mr.Fair, the Watchtower still creates guilt in rape and victims of molestations and they still have to appear before a committee for the committee to determine if the victim actually committed fornication or adultery. That isn’t a thing of the past at all.
Reply
MrFair says:
July 15, 2015 at 6:22 am
Good point. The guilt is still there… It seems that they don’t disfellowship based on the screaming or crying out rule anymore? That’s what I was referring to… I’m always open to correction. As a former elder I can say sincerely that judicial committees regarding anything sexual are very damaging no matter how “loving” the brothers might be.
Reply
anonymous says:
July 15, 2015 at 7:20 am
The way I understand it is that the Society allows for a female being so traumatized by it that they can’t fight back or scream but they have to convince the committee of that.
If a person was molested or raped, they still have to appear before a committee to explain what happened but of course it’s their word against the accused and have to convince the committee that it wasn’t consensual and if not, they face disfellowshipment for fornication.
If the accused was a man in the organization, they get to appear without the female accuser so they can go on and on about how the accuser “led them on” or whatever else they might say and the female has no idea what is being said about her behind her back. I know this is the way it is if it is the husband or father of the female but I don’t know if this holds true if the accused man isn’t the husband or father of the accused.
I personally know of a “sister” whose husband raped her and her husband was only publicly reproved for it. Who knows what he said about her behind her back.
When it comes to the female and she is married or it’s her father that is accused of abusing her, she doesn’t get to defend herself when the elders talk to the man. That is in the Shepard the Flock book.
If the husband beats on his wife or cheats on his wife, he gets to appear before the committee and go on and on about how “terrible” the marriage is etc. and how terrible and neglectful the wife was and how she egged him on (if he beat her) and wouldn’t give him his “due” and who knows what else he gets to say about her to get the sympathy of the elders but if the woman is the accuser and she wants to tell the committee about her abuse, he gets to be there to defend himself and again go on and on about how she “egged” him on or she wasn’t submissive or God knows what else he can say and it’s her word against his.The whole thing is rigged against the female in favor of the male.
It’s ironic that the Bible doesn’t say at Revelation about the 144,000 that tomen didn’t “defile” themselves with men. After all, aren’t some of these 144,000 supposed to be women?
No, the Bible comes right out and says about women that for men to have relations with women, it is “defiling” to them as if to say that women are “unclean”. This is the definition of “defile” in Websters:
“to make unclean or impure: Befoul, Besmirch as a: to corrupt the purity or perfection of: debase >the countryside defiled by billboards> b: to denude of chastity: deflower c: to make physically unclean esp. with something unpleasant or contaminating d: to make ceremonially unclean e: sully, dishonor syn see contaminate”
Just that one scripture alone in Revelation is enough to tell me that in the Bible, women are not respected, no matter how the Watchtower likes to “spin” it and that doesn’t even scratch the surface of how women are treated in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Reply
Everyday Explorer says:
July 14, 2015 at 6:36 am
I say to us all, and myself included, to keep heart and keep activist in your own way. The level of exposure re the heinous ‘safeguarding’ policies of the Watchtower is now higher than ever before, gaining more momentum and certainly isn’t going to be stilled. It will become increasingly difficult for good-hearted still-JWs to deny the factual evidence of endemic corruption as the spotlights continue.
I look forward to the Royal Commission Into Child Abuse in Australia beginning on 27 July this year. I look forward to the results of the UK’s Charity Commission investigations into the safeguarding procedures of the Watchtower, which should be relatively soon. I look forward to the Independent Inquiry Into Child Sex Abuse, also UK-based, which has now begun and will last four years.
But I also know how heart-breaking and discouraging it can be when we are faced with family members who we know are good-hearted but who still find themselves defending the Watchtower’s system. But then I remind myself that I can do my activism here (as well as with them, when possible) and that helps so much, even when I don’t post. Thank you again, Lloyd, for creating jwsurvey and thank you to all who post, whether regularly or not, and with such compassion.
Reply
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The must-read story of a ministerial servant and his wife who woke up in the last few months →
Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant
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Posted on July 6, 2015
Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse
Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse
Governing Body member Tony Morris has used the July 2015 episode of JW Broadcasting to indulge in an astonishing rant about child abuse, seemingly in response to the onslaught of negative publicity Watchtower has faced in recent years.
In his nine-minute statement on the matter, Morris shows two video presentations and reads from a 1982 Awake! magazine in attempting to make the case that Watchtower has always been “pro-active” in making the protection of children a “top priority.”
At one point, Morris unleashes an astonishing swipe at gay people in an apparent attempt to scapegoat homosexuals as being the main perpetrators of child abuse. “It [an Awake! article] warned about homosexual men who prey on and advocate the right to use boys for sex. Shame on them!” he says. (See time stamp 02:49 in the video below.)
The 1982 “‘Chickens’ and ‘Hawks'” article to which Morris alludes is a shameless piece of propaganda blaming homosexuals in general for child prostitution rings that flourished in the 80s and 90s, and which society itself has condemned (such as in the 1994 award-winning documentary “Chicken Hawk: Men Who Love Boys“). (See Wikipedia article)
Morris’ exploitation of this isolated controversy to make a sweeping generalization about gay people represents only the latest example of what appears to be a pattern of homophobic bigotry above and beyond even the scathing condemnation of gays and lesbians found in Watchtower publications.
Last year Morris was voted one of 2014’s craziest “right-wing nutjobs” by Advocate magazine for his baffling comments at last year’s United States Branch Visit, at which he warned of a conspiracy whereby homosexuals are designing tight clothing merely to lust after men’s bodies. (See time stamp 03:20 in the video below.)
And only recently, at the 2015 regional convention, Morris made a not-so-thinly-veiled declaration of his disapproval at Ireland’s recent referendum legalizing same-sex marriage.
Clearly Morris has an axe to grind against homosexuals for reasons best known to himself, but that he should mobilize his bigotry against gays in defense of the organization’s outrageous record on mishandling child abuse is bewildering to say the least.
Head in the sand
Homophobic scapegoating aside, Morris’ comments are a fascinating example of the organization’s “head in the sand” approach in the face of mounting media scrutiny of Watchtower’s child abuse track record.
This strategy was most recently deployed by Stephen Lett, who used a recorded “morning worship” speech to claim that media attention on the issue was nothing but “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
As much as activists like myself desperately wish there to be no problem in this area, and as much as we yearn for JW children to be protected, various facts are well-documented and glaringly obvious, namely:
◾Watchtower has been found legally responsible for its mishandling of child abuse in courts of law on several occasions in two different countries (see articles on Candace Conti, Jose Lopez and the latest UK high court judgment), in some cases being ordered to pay multimillion dollar damages for their negligence
◾Watchtower gathers and holds information concerning an unknown number of pedophiles, thought to number into the thousands, on a database. Watchtower admitted the existence of the database in a 2002 fax to the BBC, and it lost the Jose Lopez case in part because it refused to divulge the contents of the database in that particular trial. (See this Huffington Post interview video.)
◾Watchtower publications do not urge parents to report allegations of child abuse to authorities in all instances
◾Watchtower elders have been criticized for covering up instances of child abuse from the authorities, as in the cases of Mark Sewell, Jonathan Rose and Gordon Leighton
◾Watchtower instructions to elders in the 2010 Shepherd the Flock of God book and subsequent instructional letters uphold the “two witness rule,” whereby if there is no witness to an allegation of child molestation (or no allegation from a second victim is forthcoming) elders are to “leave matters in Jehovah’s hands,” as the following scan clearly shows
◾Watchtower instructions to elders also maintain the position that the branch office, not the police, should be the first to hear of a report of abuse, and that past child molestation does not necessarily bar someone from serving as an elder in the congregation
child-sex-abuseNone of the above pressing issues are addressed or even alluded to in Morris’ nine-minute statement. Instead he heaps praise on the organization for taking “a decisive stand,” for being “pro-active,” and for making the safeguarding of children a “top priority.”
A reputation to be proud of?
Morris even summons the gall to claim: “We are proud of our reputation in this regard.” Irrespective of what Morris or other Governing Body members may think of their handling of child abuse, if there is one thing beyond dispute in this area, it is that Watchtower’s reputation is not one to be proud of.
One possible strategy Morris might have employed if he had an ounce of humility would be to throw his hands up and admit that, like other organizations, Watchtower was simply caught off guard at a time when the threat posed by child abuse wasn’t fully understood.
Instead, Morris adopts the reverse approach by suggesting the organization was always ahead of the game while secular authorities were floundering and “somewhat naive” as to the magnitude of the problem.
As an example of Watchtower’s foresight he parades the “landmark” 1982 Awake! magazine as highlighting the scourge of child abuse over thirty years ago. But it should go without saying that it is one thing to highlight child abuse as a problem, but another thing entirely to offer effective advice.
For example, the article in that magazine titled “To End Child Abuse” gives the following advice, few aspects of which can be considered especially relevant…
◾“[The bible] calls for close communication between parent and child”
◾“[Psychologists] say parents must be fair and set good examples, but children need regulations and discipline”
◾Sex education promotes masturbation and homosexuality. “Regardless of the pros and cons of sex education, the hard fact is the tremendous increase in child prostitution, sodomy, pornography and incest.”
◾“In God’s due time all who embrace his kingdom under Christ will become able to keep this law of love perfectly… This is the only way, the final way, to end child abuse.”
Watchtower’s 1982 guidance on protecting children from predators thus called for (1) better communication between parents and children, (2) strong parental discipline, (3) less sex education and (4) God’s kingdom. This advice, claims Morris, “straightforwardly addressed” the issue and, combined with subsequent magazine articles can be considered as exonerating Watchtower.
What Morris doesn’t mention is that not one of the magazine articles on child abuse published over the last few decades specifically tell Witness parents to go to the authorities with any and all allegations of abuse, which is surely the first priority in the wake of a crime of such magnitude being perpetrated. One 1993 Awake! article even goes so far as to suggest that, in certain cases, “the legal system may offer little hope of successful prosecution.” (Awake! 1993 10/8 page 9)
Morris attempts to throw up a smokescreen early in his presentation by asserting: “Our policy as an organization is that one professing to be a victim, or his parents, should never be discouraged from reporting the incident to the appropriate authorities.” But this is nothing more than a play on words, and a deliberate attempt to deceive.
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath of an attack
True, Watchtower doesn’t expressly dissuade parents from going to the authorities, but it doesn’t persuade them either. Morris thus overtly relies on the ignorance of his audience regarding the nuances of Watchtower’s policies in an attempt to dupe them into thinking reporting is encouraged, even though the organization has yet to issue such instructions to elders despite repeated courtroom defeats.
At best, Watchtower literature over the decades has taught children to be able to identify predators and report such ones to their parents – the most recent example of which is the Caleb and Sophia cartoon presented by Morris in this video.
But teaching children to resist predators is only a fraction of any meaningful, effective child-safeguarding policy. The whole reason why child abuse is so evil is precisely because, for obvious reasons, children will always be vulnerable in the face of any sufficiently determined and opportunistic predatory pedophile, irrespective of how much resistance they put up.
Any child safeguarding policy worth its salt must thus adequately address what to do in the aftermath of an attack so that pedophiles are swiftly apprehended, and this is precisely where Watchtower falls woefully short. Parents are not told to go straight to the authorities by elders in every instance, they are merely informed that this is their “responsibility.”
Throw into the mix the perception that child abuse is a sin that the elders have a remit to investigate, the importance of “waiting on Jehovah,” the stigmatization of taking your “brother” to court, and fears surrounding slander and false accusations, and the likelihood of the police being left out of the loop entirely becomes all too apparent.
Worse than you think
I recently found myself in a phone conversation with a BBC journalist regarding Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse. I expressed to her my frustration at the perception among Witnesses and Watchtower apologists that so-called “apostates” like myself are exaggerating the problem of child abuse.
I told her that, if anything my colleagues and I are understating the magnitude of the problem, because some of the horrendous stories we hear about privately simply cannot be publicized for various reasons.
She replied: “Welcome to the world of journalism.” This, apparently, is the challenge all journalists face in covering important stories where the full grisly horror of what is happening simply cannot be revealed for a myriad of issues including privacy, court orders and so on.
Tony Morris and the Governing Body may desperately want there to be no problem regarding child abuse, but as the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire. When you add up the relentless stream of child abuse reports in the press, including several clear instances where Watchtower has been found guilty and ordered to pay eye-watering sums in compensation, it is clear that, far from being ahead of the game, the organization is ablaze with this problem.
And documented evidence in the organization’s own instructions to elders leaves the Governing Body red-handed in not taking child abuse seriously enough by considering it a sin first, and a crime second.
For all his bluster, boasting and outrageous gay-bashing, the frustration and desperation of Tony Morris and his fellow Governing Body members is becoming painfully obvious.
Putting their hands over their ears and saying “la, la, la” in the face of serious accusations of child safeguarding negligence may work for them personally, but this juvenile charade only adds to their culpability as court after court finds Watchtower negligent. And growing numbers of Jehovah’s Witnesses are seeing straight through it.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Rawstory: Jehovah’s Witness leader promotes child safety cartoon with homophobic rant
◾Freethinker: JW chief targets gays in child abuse video
◾Pink News: Jehovah’s Witness Leader, “homosexuals” are child abusers
◾Taze.co: Jehovah’s Witnesses link Homosexuality to Child Abuse in official Broadcast, like it’s 1979
◾JWvictims: The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses Blame Homosexuals for the Pedophilia in Their Religion
◾Stephen Lett slams “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” concerning child abuse record
◾After his branch visit performance, is “Tight Pants Tony” now a liability for the Governing Body?
◾“We will decide who is a predator!” – New Watchtower Instructions to Elders on Child Abuse
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
A full video rebuttal of the JW Broadcasting episode in question is forthcoming, and will be embedded at the foot of this article when complete.
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65 Responses to Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant
← Older Comments
jon says:
July 14, 2015 at 8:36 am
Hi Lloyd,
Another well written piece. I would like to know what you, or others on this commenting board, think of the potential impact of the media coverage of the child abuse scandal on the rank and file. Do you think that the ongoing uncovering of child abuse scandals that are gaining momentum right now (e.g. BBC and Savile, Rotherham/Oxford grooming gangs, historical MP abuse network) will dilute the coverage of the JW child abuse scandal? Or do you think this will amplify the awareness of the general public and the rank and file?
All the best,
Jon
Reply
Cherie says:
July 23, 2015 at 8:02 am
Lloyd, I am so glad you are Tony’s “No. 1 troll.” Stay on him. There is no way this organization has divine direction with a raving lunatic homophobe like this as a leader.
Reply
will says:
July 24, 2015 at 2:34 pm
The “faithful & discreet slave” are just awful, ignorant people. If you believe in the scriptures (and I don’t anymore), then the slave has become wicked.
Reply
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Is Watchtower imploding? 10 reasons why the end could be nigh
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Posted on July 17, 2015
Are we witnessing the beginning of the end for Watchtower?
Are we witnessing the beginning of the end for Watchtower?
For many current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses who find themselves victimized by Watchtower’s cruel cult-like practices, the prospect of witnessing the end of the organization seems too good to be true.
Especially when you have spent many years being sold false promises of extraordinary future events, it’s understandable that you would be wary of getting your hopes up over something as significant as the downfall of the organization that misled you.
I obviously won’t make you any promises, because I have learned to be extremely cautious of wishful thinking in all its forms. But when I look at what is going on with Watchtower, I see an organization falling from grace at a rate faster than I could have ever reasonably envisaged.
The latest evidence of the organization’s free-fall comes in the shape of a letter to all elders in the United States branch territory, dated July 8, 2015. You can read about Watchtower’s new “master plan” yourself, but essentially it adds a further caveat to their smash-and-grab, stealth-tithing maneuvers from last year. (Thanks go to JWleaks.org for first making this letter available.)*
The new letter essentially says to publishers (or doesn’t say to publishers, because it’s an elders-only letter): “Not only are we going to make you promise to send us money every month for maintaining a kingdom hall that isn’t owned by you in any meaningful sense, we are also warning you that we might sell your kingdom hall, pocket the proceeds, and send you to go share someone else’s kingdom hall while STILL taking your money for the kingdom hall we’ve just sold.”
Rather than write an exhaustive summary of the letter, and re-hash points I have already made on this matter from previous articles, I thought I would take a different approach by adding this latest development to my list of 10 reasons why I believe Watchtower COULD be about to implode. Here goes…
1. Jehovah’s Witnesses are becoming a toxic brand
toxic-brand
The internet is more hostile than ever regarding Jehovah’s Witnesses. As the world becomes more aware of the cult phenomenon (thanks in part to the success of documentaries like HBO’s “Going Clear” film about Scientology) journalists are becoming less squeamish when it comes to highlighting the cult-attributes of the organization in newspaper articles and news broadcasts.
Ex-Witnesses have already turned YouTube into a no-go zone for believing Witnesses, and continue to explore ingenious strategies for reaching out to those under Watchtower’s spell. Even non-Witness blogs like Hemant Mehta’s Friendly Atheist are now rallying to the ex-JW cause and becoming increasingly vocal about the organization’s harmful practices. All this means it is harder than ever for Witnesses to find new converts, and easier than ever for Witnesses to wake up.
2. Less “spiritual food” is being printed
spiritual-food
The wafer-thin magazines on the literature carts testify to a huge drop in printed output of 39% for monthly magazine printing since 2005. If God’s one true organization is flourishing, why has it so drastically scaled down on its “spiritual food?” The simple truth is, printing is expensive. VERY expensive. A good gauge of prosperity for any printing organization is its printed output. If a printing company has a problem, it will print less stuff. That is exactly what we have already been seeing for some time with Watchtower.
3. Globally, the organization is in retreat
retreat
Watchtower has been shutting down branches at a rate never before seen, with branch numbers plummeting from 118 in 2009 to just 90 as of last year. The organization used to pride itself on its global footprint, and would herald the dedication of new branches as evidence of God’s backing for the global preaching work. Now Watchtower is in open retreat, using single branches to run the affairs of multiple countries. RTOs, or “Remote Translation Offices” (think of an RTO as a Bethel-lite), are seen as a way of keeping some kind of presence in far-flung territories, but the glory days of Watchtower’s relentless global expansion are fast disappearing in the rear view mirror.
4. The begging has started
begging
For the first time in the organization’s history, the Governing Body openly admitted to a shortfall in needed funds in the May 2015 JW Broadcasting episode. This unprecedented move was made despite Watchtower making 1 Billion from selling off its Brooklyn portfolio ($375 million in one transaction alone), which could indicate the Brooklyn proceeds have already been spent. After all, when there is zero accounting transparency, we have no way of knowing how indebted the organization is. No amount of revenue from property sales will be much use to Watchtower if it is all getting sucked into a bottomless pit of accumulated debt.
5. The stealth tithing has started
tithing
Expect an organization in financial peril to desperately claw around for ways of bringing in more cash from available assets. In Watchtower’s case, they are prevented from demanding money from individual members, because this would be classed as “tithing” – a practice associated with false religion that the organization has condemned since its inception. What Watchtower CAN do is tithe, not individuals, but congregations. This is precisely what the new “Local Design/Construction” arrangement has achieved.
Last year elders were forced to promise a fixed amount to be donated to Watchtower every month from their congregation account, based on (1) what the congregation was already sending for paying off a building/renovation loan, or (2) anonymous slips of paper passed around so that publishers could indicate what they could afford to pledge. Congregations were even told to send any surplus funds squirreled away for a rainy day to Watchtower, leaving just $5,000 plus three months’ worth of regular operating expenses.
Amazingly, the majority of Witnesses continue to be oblivious to what amounts to a smash-and-grab, and are instead under the assumption that Watchtower has mercifully forgiven all kingdom hall building loans.
6. Kingdom hall ‘mergers’ are in store
fuel-in-car
As already mentioned, Watchtower has instructed all United States elders as of July 8, 2015 to be ready for their congregation to be re-assigned to a different kingdom hall if the organization’s new “master plan” deems this necessary. The letter marks the green light for the downsizing we are already seeing at branch level to be soon rolled out at congregation level, and is again clear evidence that Watchtower is desperate to claw in money wherever it can and become a smaller, more financially nimble organization.
The end game would be kingdom hall multiplexes in city-center locations shared by five or more congregations – a far cry from the parochial feel older Witnesses will be accustomed to.
As delightful as it is to think of such a huge regression in the local presence of the organization, you can’t help but feel bad for all those long-standing Witnesses who have donated thousands over the years under the false assumption that they were responsible for their local kingdom hall’s upkeep. Soon, for all their kindness and generosity, such ones may face lengthy and costly car journeys to intimidating, soulless, inconvenient city-center locations allocated to them by Watchtower.
7. Personnel are being jettisoned
kicked-out
Last year district overseers received the unwelcome news that their positions no longer existed, and they were surplus to requirements. Though some will have been demoted down to circuit overseer rank, the majority will have been jettisoned by the organization to fend for themselves – an entire strata of the organization’s hierarchy dissolved, and deemed no longer serviceable or cost-effective.
In a similarly unceremonious manner, workers at branch offices subject to closure by Watchtower have been cast adrift, with years or even decades of loyal service apparently counting for very little in the organization’s quest to make ends meet. The recently-emerged story of a Wallkill bethelite who was virtually thrown out on the street due to “cutbacks” suggests that the organization’s top brass have no qualms when it comes to wielding the axe. Bethelites in Watchtower’s heartland would do well to watch their backs and plan for the worst as the organization looks to slash spending wherever it can.
8. The secret weapons have failed
secret-weapon
Despite all the fanfare and hype, JW.org has been unable to attract internet-savvy non-Witnesses – its main target audience. It is, quite literally, preaching to the converted. The 2015 Yearbook boasted that JW.org received 850,000,000+ total visits in the first two years from Aug 27, 2012 to Aug 31, 2014. This figure sounds impressive until you factor in the number of Jehovah’s Witnesses – 8 million. Assuming every active Witness visits their own website at least once per week, you arrive at only a slightly lower figure of 832,000,000 visits over the two years (8,000,000 x 52 x 2).
And despite succeeding in making the organization more visible, there has been no notable increase in baptisms in the two years since the literature carts (or “metropolitan witnessing”) program was launched. After all, getting literature into someone’s hands won’t stop them going on the internet and fact-checking when they get home. And that’s assuming anyone is interested in approaching the carts to begin with. In this Guardian article, the reporter watched some carts in a busy part of London for an hour, and the only person who approached the Witnesses did so because they needed directions.
9. The child abuse floodgates have opened
flood
As was predicted at the time, there has been a relentless stream of child abuse lawsuits filed against Watchtower since the 2012 Candace Conti verdict. In 2013, a year on from the Conti judgment, lawyer Irwin Zalkin told me he had no less than 11 lawsuits on his books. Though many such lawsuits end up being settled, the success of the Jose Lopez case and the recent victory in London’s High Court have shown that if child abuse victims are willing to dig their heels in and stay the course they can have, not only compensation, but justice served.
All of this doesn’t bode well for an organization already under fire for its cult-like shunning practices and death-dealing prohibitions on blood transfusions. And apart from the atrocious reputation, with well-informed journalists like Trey Bundy spelling out the problems of organizational mishandling in the media, the money for paying off multi-million judgments and out-of-court settlements has to come from somewhere.
Even if the Governing Body sent a long-overdue letter out tomorrow FINALLY telling elders to report all child abuse accusations straight to the police, Watchtower would still have to answer to the backlog of lawsuits from victims who suffered while the two-witness rule was (is) still in place. Such victims may well have only a finite window of opportunity to get ANY money out of Watchtower at all.
10. Watchtower doesn’t have a PR strategy
head-in-sand
You’re an international, faith-based non-profit organization with a toxic brand both on the internet and in the media. Fewer people from wealthy, developed countries with internet are joining you, and thus donations are dwindling. For all the evangelizing and promotional work of your members, a few clicks on Google can completely dismantle your organization’s message. To make matters worse, you have mounting legal costs and settlements to pay for out of an ever-diminishing revenue stream. What you urgently need is a good PR strategy to make it easier to bring in fresh converts (and their donations) – but even here Watchtower is almost comically inept.
The organization’s PR strategy is essentially two-fold: (1) bury your head in the sand and hope your opposers eventually get bored and go away, or (2) refute the claims made by your opposers using outright lies (*cough* Rick Fenton). Both of these methods may help the likes of Tony Morris get to sleep at night in the short-term, but ultimately they are self-defeating. To neutral observers, silence is incriminating when damning allegations are on the table – especially related to harming children. And when you flat out lie about your damaging policies and teachings, you only give critics like me more rope to hang you with.
The only workable strategy Watchtower can pursue at this stage is one of reform, but past experience shows that any form of “compromise” is seen by the Governing Body as capitulation to Satan’s hordes. In short, Watchtower is sinking because its deluded leaders are their own worst enemies.
What does the future hold?
I do not for one moment suggest that we will see an end to Jehovah’s Witnesses as a religion in our lifetimes. The fact that there continues to be such a thing as the bible students, who still cling to Charles Taze Russell and his discredited, outlandish teachings, tells us that religions have amazing survival abilities even when members are deprived of their leadership. Faith, after all, is a product of people’s minds. When enough people believe the same unsubstantiated thing you have a religion, regardless of whether there is a person or organization to lead it.
But while religions are virtually indestructible, corporations are not. Non-profit organizations like Watchtower are just as capable of getting into debt as any other business. And when your bank manager starts bankruptcy proceedings against you because you can no longer service your debts, it’s game over.
The organization's glory days are already behind it
The organization’s glory days are already behind it
Those who suggest Watchtower is too big and successful to go down need only look at the fact that it has already been shrinking since it reached its zenith (in terms of branches and printing operations) some time between 2005 and 2010. Add to that the desperate clawing for cash over the five years since then, and you have the omens of an organizational collapse.
The winds of change have completely overtaken Watchtower in the internet age, and the Governing Body find themselves in a whole different ball game to their predecessors. If things are really as bad as I suspect, Watchtower needs to drastically downscale its operations to, say, a handful of branches and zero printing. In other words, it needs to become like its noisy neighbor Scientology, which despite having only 50,000-or-so members (and an even worse reputation) still has an impressive portfolio of valuable property scattered across the globe and minimal overheads compared to Watchtower.
But any downsizing of that magnitude would send Watchtower into an even more vicious spiral, in which it would start hemorrhaging even the most diehard members. After all, when you have spent decades pointing to your success as evidence of divine backing, how do you explain any sudden, sharp decline?
If Watchtower were to go bankrupt, it could always try claiming that the Great Tribulation has begun and Satan’s minions (their creditors) have started overtly attacking God’s people, but this simply will not wash with more intelligent Witnesses. Whatever is left of the organization (perhaps re-branded to ditch the Watchtower name entirely while retaining the Governing Body at the helm) would have a huge exodus on its hands.
It is precisely because of all the pride at stake that, in my mind, a sudden implosion seems increasingly plausible. Unlike ordinary commercial organizations who have the flexibility to change their size and scope according to the prevailing conditions, “God’s organization” can only be seen by its members to be going in an upwards trajectory for its grandiose claims of divine direction to have any credence. Any noticeable regression would rightly be interpreted as evidence of God’s favor being absent. Thus any problems would be allowed to accumulate behind closed doors until they reach a critical mass.
Of course I could be wrong, but if that is so then Watchtower is doing an awful lot of begging and downsizing for no particular reason, and with far too much to lose by doing so. It could well be that some incredible developments are ahead as Watchtower’s predicament further deteriorates, and the Governing Body slowly discovers that Jehovah isn’t coming to the rescue after all. I had better get on with writing my book while there is still an organization to write about.
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Translations: Spanish | French | Hungarian
Further reading…
◾JWsurvey articles on Watchtower downsizing
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87 Responses to Is Watchtower imploding? 10 reasons why the end could be nigh
Newer Comments →
Gareth says:
July 17, 2015 at 9:27 am
Haha that last sentence begs the question: would you be happy or unhappy if your book would be obsolete before it being published? 😀 Although I think it would be useful anyway, even if only for history reasons.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
July 17, 2015 at 9:47 am
Really enjoyed the article, Cedars. You made my day.
You mention the following:
“If Watchtower were to go bankrupt, it could always try claiming that the Great Tribulation has begun and Satan’s minions (their creditors) have started overtly attacking God’s people, but this simply will not wash with more intelligent Witnesses. ”
You make a very good point. Claiming the GT has begun may be one of the few plays they have left, but it is a very dangerous one. If they say the “GT has begun” in order to explain what is going on, this will likely start the clock ticking in the head of some of the members. I sure hope they become desperate enough to put a “stake on the ground” and commit to an event/date.
I cannot see how they can maintain the status quo and remain vague and uncommitted to an event/date forever and recover (let alone grow). Without a clear target people start loosing their sense of urgency, wake up, etc.
If past history is any indication, what I imagine they may do is “imply” that that GT has started without stating overtly to leave themselves plausible deniability (akin to the 1975 fiasco).
Regardless, as an apocalyptic religion, they have a limited number of choices and shelf-life. And, even though many will stay with it past the “expiration date” (like my family), it may wake up at least some.
Reply
Kat says:
July 17, 2015 at 10:06 am
Inspiring!
One can only hope this is the beginning of the end for the WT org and its GB.
Reply
David says:
July 17, 2015 at 10:13 am
I think the WatchTower hasn’t got any economic problem. For managing assets they are masters. They have the best advisers and the american rich JWs pump lots of money in.
They have instead membership problems. I don’t think more people want to give up freedom for a cult with inhuman practices (like shunning).
Lies won’t last forever so one day they have to face reality but it will take time. Cults have a difficult time to realise what they truly are.
Reply
peggy says:
July 19, 2015 at 10:29 am
This is a good point David, maybe not economic problems but, membership problems. Which eventually could spell economic problems. About 4 years ago my congregation was told by the CO to split a perfectly nice large congregation into 2. We went from 150 using the nice large hall to 70 people and extra utility use when they had to open it up for the extra meetings.(I always thought the move was to make the numbers of congregations appear
to be growing when membership is stagnant. I have been gone some 2 years now. And then this letter comes out about putting congregations back together when they are not using the hall to max. I honestly believe something is up. Something is amiss. And it may mean problems. Which GB may hint is a sign of the end.
Reply
Susan says:
July 17, 2015 at 10:21 am
Great article! It’s so exciting to think that this horrible and cruel organization may one day implode! They’d shot themselves in the foot years ago when they strongly discouraged couples from having children – so think of all the ice cream money they weren’t able to extort! I imagine that many more will wake up when they are personally affected with upcoming Kingdom Hall mergers and those who are laid off at Bethel. They will experience first hand just how “loving” their organization is, and discover that JW org would rather risk losing members than losing money. Once again though, they are shooting themselves in the foot as these lost members equal lost revenue and will be another step closer to the organization’s demise.
Reply
airborne says:
July 17, 2015 at 11:09 am
I really enjoyed the article Cedars. My gut says the Watchtower ship is sinking like the Titanic. Of course all the poor Witnesses in Steerage Class are going to get screwed.
Reply
Searcher says:
July 17, 2015 at 1:24 pm
Great analogy! I think they are sinking like the titanic. Not many people believed it was sinking until it was too late to put the lifeboats out fully. Like you said, the poor steerage members of the rank and file will get left holding the bag. History always shows that in many other organization implosions.
Reply
Alone in MD says:
July 17, 2015 at 8:58 pm
I agree with you airborne. Most of the minions are very dedicated, god loving people that don’t know or care about what rules and regulations the GB come up with. My wife is one of the brainwashed minions and can’t point out anything negative about the GB. Very sad situation.
Reply
Dee says:
July 17, 2015 at 11:20 am
Thanks Cedar :) It’s comforting and affords hope to us when all of those points are gathered together like this. There isnt an “increase” in their ranks, and the annual report will be the next thing to go. A decrease in numbers will be explained away with the whole “there will be a cooling off” or “separation of the sheep and goats” or similar damage control responses. I for one appreciate so much what you do.
Reply
Grace Cowie Wilson says:
July 17, 2015 at 12:07 pm
If they decide that the great tribulation has arrived they are then free to start issuing instructions thT might not seem rational from a human viewpoint.
Another thing that intrigues me is the “no show” in the Lopez case leading to a decision for damages in the sum of $13.5 million. Clearly the WTBTSB made a pragmatic decision in this case to pay up on a default judgment against it rather than risk
(i) a precedent setting decision against it that could affect settlement prospects against it in other cases; and/or
(ii) disclosure of damning documents.
The extreme lengths litigation-wise it has gone to (including a very risky strategy which failed) to obstruct the investigation by the UK Charity Commission is also very interesting.
They may have even more to hide than we are currently aware of.
Reply
Itfeelsgoodtobefree says:
July 20, 2015 at 12:46 pm
Very well put Grace! Who knows what else they are trying to sweep under the rug…
Reply
John says:
July 17, 2015 at 12:33 pm
I find it comical that if you want to believe the prophecies in the bible, notably in Revelation, it seems that most of the ‘fulfillments’ that the WTS applied to other religions are now more applicable to them. Keep up the great stream of articles Lloyd. Good reading for a change.
Reply
doda says:
July 18, 2015 at 2:08 pm
Agreed, John! I have been thinking this very thing for quite some time. I also have to agree with the comment about the GT, implications that it is/has started. Oh to be a fly in the car of any car group in the USA and the UK!
Reply
Ken says:
July 17, 2015 at 12:36 pm
First I have talked to ex -witnesses who say that the organization today is unrecognized in its form every one says –
It’s not the same sect I grew up in .. That’s what everyone who left are saying . Most of those who left were of the so called 1914 er generation who grew up back in the 1970 and 1980s saw hundreds baptized at conventions . The decline today is obvious . It’s no getting away from that ,secondly is the constant shifting doctrines , the literature decline only means they don’t have enough educated people to write as they did back in the 1950 – 1970 era because the org was able to mass produce books , and magazines . One has to only hear Anthony Morris anti eduction rant on JW.tv . Obviously the decline is a self inflicted wound. As a teen I saw a prelude of it back during the 1980 s when the first secret elders book came out , along with how people were treated at the Kingdom Hall. The loving so called atmosphere was replaced with judge mental talks from the elders . Things were unraveling then . The future , the only way to save the Watchtower is a revolution from within , removing the entire governing body , and shift the sect back closer to the Adventist movement where it sprang.
Reply
Carlos says:
July 17, 2015 at 1:19 pm
In Buenos Aires the Watchtower administers a huge geriatric complex. Older people sign off their pensions, property, and anything their family may inherit. Then the Watchtower promises to take care of them until they die. Knowing the Watchtower record on fulfilling promises … this is not going to end well. I imagine they will leave the country and stick the old geezers to the care of their congregations after taking everyone to the cleaners. Mark my words!
Reply
Chris says:
July 19, 2015 at 1:15 pm
Do you have any links with info about this?
Reply
Cedars says:
July 19, 2015 at 1:23 pm
Links are in the article. :)
Reply
Carrie Bee says:
July 17, 2015 at 1:33 pm
Fantastic article John!!!
Reply
Searcher says:
July 17, 2015 at 1:43 pm
Good analysis of the situation! As I said a while back, the internet and education are the GB and WTS’s worst enemy. It’s really beginning to take it’s toll on them. Why do you think they are so dead-set against higher education and having their members question what the leadership says?
The “organization” is in a tail spin, retreat, and downsize mode for now. However, don’t think they are going to go anywhere anytime soon. They will regroup as some evidence is shown. The will pull “bunnies out of the magic hat” as Dee has said earlier. There are some loons that will believe their drivel now matter what. Basically, people believe what they want to believe, even if it’s ridiculous paradise earth visions that have no logical substantiation.
Reply
Searcher says:
July 17, 2015 at 1:47 pm
My apologies to anyone that have family members still in. I didn’t think before hitting the send button. “Loons” is not a good term, since these are loved ones to some of you out there. People are to be respected. I don’t want to lower myself to the name calling that the Watchtower has done for so many years. :/
Reply
Bonnie says:
July 18, 2015 at 5:43 am
The people formerly known as MY family who are still in this hateful cult ARE loons. No offense taken here.
Reply
Grace says:
July 17, 2015 at 2:36 pm
This is one of the best articles I have read.
Narcissistic, Psychopaths always find a way to survive. The top end will make sure that they have some strategy to stay afloat. Those that will stick by them will be the vulnerable who aren’t necessarily unintelligent but can’t think of a life outside of the cult.
Reply
yawn says:
July 17, 2015 at 3:00 pm
Really hoping you are right, but in some ways I hope it lingers on. Why? I just think about all the people who would be completely devastated if it ever folds. I managed to get out in my late teens. I can’t imagine what its like for people who are farther on in years and suddenly have their one figurative crutch removed. I don’t know which is worse! I’m some ways I think they deserve it but in others I just feel bad for them. And unfortunately the men benefiting from this scam will never see justice. :(
Reply
J*L*C*R says:
July 17, 2015 at 2:52 pm
“Down, Down, Down, in a burning ring of fire”.
Reply
MYSELF 3.1 says:
July 17, 2015 at 3:34 pm
Dear Cedars,
Thanks for your balanced and well thought article, which got my attention as a run a management consulting firm. Here some observations.
On one side the financial issues are pretty evident, yet JW are once more proving very able to make smart business moves: they are cashing-in and reinvesting in real estate, securing and centralizing ownership of properties, ensuring constant incoming cash flow through what you described as tithing, reducing costs of printing, facility management and human resources.
They also seem to have understood the need for a re branding by pushing the jw.org logo above both Watchtower and the name Jehovah, which incidentally is quite sad because they proud themselves of being better than ancient Jewish who adopted abbreviations and replacements for The Name, and now they are doing pretty much the same hiding The Name behind jw.org… the only difference being that the scribes did it out of reverence, the WT is doing it out of shame. Still, though, a sound marketing move.
Are these good signs or bad signs? Are JW doomed or rather successfully engaging in a new strategy? It depends on what the objective is. If the purpose is to remain in existence and safeguard the comfortable life and annexed ego of few, then they might indeed succeed. This means that we will see more changes and a total re branding of the organization, to the point of making it unrecognizable from what it was. I envisage even a possible change of name, and perhaps the jw.org campaign is a prelude of this. The hard activities will gradually be eliminated, following the trend of reducing pioneering hours, convention days, magazine pages and number of meetings. The junior management will be made happy by taking away the burden of preparing talks, living them free to enjoy their role play as little managers making petty decisions. The meetings will feature just broadcast sessions, which will increase uniformity and further reduce critical skills. To be a JW will involved attending weekly shows, like going to the movies, and enjoy tiny bits of local power and strong social acceptance within the group. Altogether very appealing for right wing bigots, left wing idealist, people seeking the comfort of social acceptance, people without any secular fulfillment enjoying putting on a tie and playing to be a mini-leader, people in need of channeling their unaddressed psychological issues and conspiracy theory style folks that love the cheap elitist of knowing a secret alternative truth.
In my opinion the current organisation looks like the typical company that has good consultants but a structural inability to apply sound advice. Hence, the contradiction between sound business strategies and terrible PR, such as the rambling of the current GB members, the insistence in policies that are a total marketing disaster such as ostracism, blood issue and abuses cover ups. Who will prevail, the business wise component or the inadequacy of the leaders?
I wish to see them imploding but I think that it will take some external help and activism on the part of us former members. We need to expose the brutality of their mind control methods and their dangerousness before they implement a re-branding and before they cleverly take distance from their own history. To flood the Internet with the TATT is just one of many ways required to facilitate the implosion and I am glad to join this forum posting my first comment!
Reply
Ted says:
July 17, 2015 at 4:19 pm
Unpalatable instructions to elders, always include some devious
phrase, to ensure their compliance.
Re- the letter regarding utilising K, Halls. Elders are appealed to
As “Spiritual Men who recognise that the K,Halls belong to JHVH.”
So the not so subtle implication is, as JHVHs Org, we can do what
the hell we like with them.
Reply
SR says:
July 17, 2015 at 4:37 pm
I am going to start saving up for when they auction off Jehovah’s Chariot. I am going to slap an orang triangle on it’s backside and pimp it all over town.
Sadly, no matter what happens there will still be some incapable of accepting they have been tricked. David Koresh still has followers.
Reply
Imacountrygirl says:
July 17, 2015 at 4:38 pm
Great article Cedars!
I have a sort of different take. I don’t think WT is necessarily running out of money, I think they are quietly moving the money around and putting it in safe places/accounts, sort of like squirreling it away. If it’s in a protected account, it can’t be touched by lawsuits. I think they are attempting to get as much money from the pubs as they can while they can. Now that they have taken over ownership of all those KH’s, it would seem WT is about as wealthy as they have ever been, imho.
Reply
John Plummer says:
July 17, 2015 at 4:41 pm
Great article…except such pessimism re the life expectancy of the Watchtower Society. Don’t forget, THE driving force for ordinary Witnesses is the imminence of Armageddon, and when exactly is that coming? Before the generation that overlaps the generation that witnessed the year 1914 passes away. And who said this? Jehovah God, in His, “increased light”- information transmitted directly between God and the Governing Body and reported in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower. When “increased light” is proven to be false it can’t be dismissed as “speculation” by “Jehovah’s people” or blamed on “over enthusiasm” by Watchtower writers… when the “overlapping generation” passes away (with no sign of Armageddon, of course) Witnesses will be left with the stark choice: either Jehovah lied or the Governing Body lied. Either way, the religion is screwed! How ironic for the Watchtower Society – they are about to be annihilated in a corporate Armageddon!
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
July 19, 2015 at 10:48 pm
, I couldn’t agree that
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
July 19, 2015 at 10:48 pm
More
Reply
Ted says:
July 17, 2015 at 5:03 pm
Great read Cedars. Who says there’s not much good news
these days.? can’t think who they might be!
Reply
Mama Joy says:
July 17, 2015 at 5:55 pm
Do you have a copy of the elders letter?
Reply
Gareth says:
July 17, 2015 at 11:54 pm
@Mama Joy, there is a link in the article: “letter to all elders…” is the link.
Reply
Mike Morris says:
July 17, 2015 at 11:28 pm
I think that the organization is mirroring what is happening to Christianity generally, and will be left with an ageing membership that will decline over the years. All the points made in the article will have an impact of course. Particularly the effect of the internet and sites like this one.
Reply
sally1914 says:
July 18, 2015 at 1:23 am
Wow! I think this is your best article ever! SO encouraging! I thought I was getting my hopes up, and was trying not to, then I read this article. Your points are dead on accurate, watchtower surely seems to be hurting financially! It’s so exciting to think that this horrible and cruel organization will one day implode!
Reply
Bonnie says:
July 18, 2015 at 5:38 am
One can only hope. However, even if there was a mass exodus, there is always a handy scripture from the J Dub Translation to explain it. “The love of the greater number cooling off” comes to mind. They have scriptures to explain everything away.
Reply
MrFair says:
July 18, 2015 at 6:08 am
Great article! As far as printing operations are concerned, there is a HUGE amount of waste. Kingdom Halls almost always have a massive stockpile of old magazines in the attic, basement, etc. The publishers have loads of them laying around their house, garage and cars. My neighbor, who is a special pioneer, cleans out his car trunk monthly and inevitably ends up with a large box of unused and now damaged literature. He burns it in a fire pit to avoid the embarrassment of it all being dumped at the recycling center. At some point they will catch on and reduce the printing amounts. I would have done it years ago. They did at one point ask for publishers to bring back any undamaged, placeable literature to the hall. Now what are we going to do with this box of “Truth” books and Awake! Magazines about the dinosaurs? The whole thing is an absolute circus when the spell breaks and you see it for what it is. I hope they do declare bankruptcy someday, morally, spiritually and financially.
Reply
Braveheart says:
July 18, 2015 at 7:13 am
Wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments Cedars, but for a different speculative reason. As you say, because of the Org’s financial secrecy, we can only guess at what is really happening within the Org’s chambers.
My take: the money grab, followed rapidly by the promise/threat to merge congregations, (not to SHARE a KH) has been too dramatic to even think that this is a CHOSEN course. I’d suggest that the Org has been forced into such unheard of, draconian action because of the 2008 financial collapse. Its investments & hedge fund speculations have collapsed big-time and exposed them to bankruptcy, thus demanding such punitive measures on congregations.
The flock could never be told that their beloved Org almost gambled away “God’s earthly organization.”
Reply
John Z says:
July 18, 2015 at 8:57 am
I am no trend setter. For my wife and who were very devout mid thirties born in jws. Now facing shunning and dfing I’m not alone many are waking up! I hope the org crashes and burns!
Reply
James Broughton says:
July 18, 2015 at 10:47 am
A well-written article, worthy of being produced in the form of a tract. Just as in the 1930s there could be a new movement with a new title rising out of the ashes but it will be full of the old heresies and bad practices that will continue to dupe unsuspecting people.
Reply
Ted says:
July 18, 2015 at 11:06 am
The WT, often bragged about the millions of mags, it distributed,
but how many were actually placed with the public, and how many
we’re junked? MrFair’s comment is so true.
I more often than not had difficulty placing my quota, in fact
sometimes I came back with more mags, than I went out with.
Making back calls on previous placements, the h,holder would
come to the door and thrust the literature back at me, saying
“I don’t want this rubbish in the house.”
And the hard backed books, you’d carry them about for weeks
then end up throwing them in the junk cupboard.
The con, here was that you paid up front this stuff, you didn’t get
it on a “Sale or return basis” , so it was a no lose system,”For them”.
I worked for a company, selling brushes, and polish, they used
the same no lose method. You’d pay in advance for what you
needed to fill your orders, then some of the customers would
change their mind. So instead of wages to feed the kids, you
we’re left with several toilet brushes, and a few tins of floor
polish. ( it’s a good job my kids were not fussy eaters. )
Reply
JJ says:
July 18, 2015 at 12:35 pm
I hope you’re right!!! It would solve so many of my problems if this stupid cult would crash-and-burn.
It would be fun to watch, and maybe even be a part of taking down this huge, vicious group of deluded men. Then finally seeing my wife and children freed, not to mention many other friends and family members.
For sure, without a doubt, JW.Org-land is going through some serious problems. Let’s see if they can reinvent themselves? I doubt it. Will some people stay in to the end??? Yes, some will. I think the vast majority will slowly slip away like cowards on a battlefield. They won’t talk about it and they will deny that they ever really believed it. The old hard-arses will not know what hit them as they see their “flock” get smaller and smaller every month.
It will be fun to gloat!!!
Reply
Paola says:
July 18, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Very well written Lloyd. It is very sad to see how blind people can choose to be even when you try to share and just get them to ask questions from their organization. Love that last line! I’ll be in line to get your book. :)
Reply
Wanderer says:
July 18, 2015 at 4:25 pm
I can’t see them going broke. They have sold off their Brooklyn assets, they are ramping up on donations and they get their Kingdom Halls built at construction materials only prices paid for by the R&F and sold off at any time by the Society. They would be one of the only religions that don’t have any charity expenditure.
I can’t see how they can lose with that business model.
Reply
jakemon75 says:
July 18, 2015 at 4:53 pm
Nice work. Your recent pieces have been especially good! Please keep finding the time to put these together.
Reply
Ned Holcomb says:
July 18, 2015 at 8:59 pm
This is my first comment on a site like this but your thoughts on the org’s finances made me think of another problem they may be having. The practice of shunning ones children caused many to send their estates to the Borg when they died. Why give it to those awful kids who left Jehovah when you can send it to God himself.
Many of us who spent our life in this money hungry religion have no inheritance to give to anyone because of “putting God first” and not getting a career and not planning for retirement.
It would be nice to see them as broke as many of us are as a result of there horrible advice and false prophecies.
I think though that so many are so terrified of these men’s threats of destruction of those who oppose them that they will stay and support them no matter how bad they get because ” where do we go away to” is so instilled in there heads.
I did love your thoughts and hope it happens.
Reply
Tim says:
July 18, 2015 at 11:26 pm
Great article and very perseptive. In each congregation there are real die hard believers who feel in their hearts god speaks via the governing body. Seeing GB members speak on their own TV channel is akin to seeing god speak. For this audience JW can do no wrong.
I think imploding is a long way off. What is more likely is a reduction in active membership to core believers and lots of fear inducing talks, Watchtower study articles to make core believers get the faders and stragglers onside. My wife, not very active, is impressed with videos shown at mid week meetings. This is evidence, she and others believes, that god is modernising the organisation.
On a completely different note, how many kingdom halls have windows? Any other public building without windows would make people dubious.
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
July 19, 2015 at 2:17 am
I find myself hungrily devouring every word you write because finally after a lifetime of being duped I have woken up….I always had times of periodic doubt but suppressed it because of various avenues of indoctrinated fear…I reg pioneered on many occasions…but over the last two years and especially since the monthly broadcasts on jw.org Ihave seen what I and my parents and siblings have dedicated our life to…an evil lie…now I am to old at 57 to build a life that can give me financial and personal fullfillment satisfaction…the opportunities I have tossed aside because of the direction of the organization…ones that would have meant such a happy and satisfying life…Im sick at heart…I am so in love with my spouse but they are totally duped and will listen to no reason or any argument against the organization…and would report me to the congregational elders ‘for my own good’ if thought needed…Im petrified of shunning because my whole family and all my friends are witnesses and I would be so alone…though sometimes I feel alone in a sea of people…in one way I have such relief…I no longer believe in God or a Devil..but I am utterly depressed because the best years of my life are gone…how can they do this to people?
Reply
Excelsior! says:
July 19, 2015 at 6:04 am
Idontknow…,
I am truly sorry for your situation. I hope that the WTBTS implodes soon, but I think it will be around for a good while yet in some form.
If I were in your situation, I would try to see my “theocratic” responsibilities as a role I had to play. What is the minimum you can do and still be “in good standing” in your situation? Find that level, and try to average around that. Another good tip is to use good old cheap words to your advantage. A few hearty “Isn’t Jehovah God’s spirit-directed Organisation wonderful?!”s and other similar statements will help convince the elders that you are in the fold.
I would reccomend reading the “Shepherding the Flock of God” elders text book. It is a cheat sheet for just what the elders will be looking for and knowledge is potential power for you to play them at their own game.
It’s a wretched situation, but these tips will hopefully help you. The only place where any human being can possibly be free is within their own minds. You are free, but your loved ones are sadly not.
These tips are how I would tackle this tragic situation. They may not work for you, but they may be of help to you. They come from a genuine feeling of compassion for you, and all those who face this awful dilemma.
All the best to you and your family.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
July 19, 2015 at 7:10 am
Thank you Excelsior
Its great that your advice comes from a sincere place and not a ‘words by rote’ mindset…
I think I will follow your advice for the near future and though Im no spring chicken try and alongsode it create a life for myself…
My loved ones are for the moment imprisoned…
Im happy my mind is not…
Thank you for bringing that to my attention..
Peace be with you also
Reply
peggy says:
July 19, 2015 at 6:13 pm
Idontknow….I am 54 and recently told my family I am inactive. It took a long time to do it. I gradually woke up. My mind belongs to me now and that is more valuable than anything. The tips given to do as little and say the right “theocratic lines” helped me as I was leaving. I was angry the best years of my life were wasted, too. But, many new opportunities await. We can make it happen. It is funny , but the first thing I stopped doing was contributing money. It felt great.
Reply
Searcher says:
July 20, 2015 at 10:03 am
@Idontknowhatodo
I really feel for your situation and it is touching. Don’t feel that all is lost. You now have your own mind and no one, not even the JW organization can take that from you. Of all things that Nazi concentration camp victims said: They would say that the Nazi’s could take their freedom, but not the freedom of their mind. You can rebuild yourself and move on even at 57, just not as some in greater society would think. You are free in your mind and that is something to be proud of, because freedom isn’t free.
Reply
mandalay says:
July 21, 2015 at 11:14 am
Idontknowwhattodo:
I woke up two-and-a-half years ago. I stopped contributing two years before I actually stopped attending meetings. I am older than you and understand your pain because I’ve been there. There are so many things I want to do with my life now and can’t. But I’m completely over it now. I’m just happy as ever to be free, to start thinking instead of learning. I am never lonely. I use the internet extensively and read books–everything I can get my hands on, i.e., science, technology, sacred books and bible, history, politics, economics, conspiracy, mythology, theology, the paranormal… I am beginning to construct a different world view, which oddly enough, is not altogether taking me into the atheistic-evolutionist camp I thought it would, but that’s another story.
Reply
Lou Cee says:
July 22, 2015 at 7:39 am
Mandalay, I love your attitude and am doing the same thing! It is wonderful to be free!
Reply
Gameisover says:
July 19, 2015 at 2:42 am
Thank you for a superb article, Cedars. You’ve said it all, and so well. I know many “friends” who still attend meetings for the love of their families. The great silent revenge is they have stopped contributing completely.
They also write 1or 2 hours in their monthly report so as not to be considered inactive. How sad to have to resort
to those strategies in order to conserve ones family and friends! (The number is legion).
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
July 19, 2015 at 3:20 am
Really…is it that many?
Im not alone then
Thank You
Reply
Alicia says:
July 20, 2015 at 11:20 am
I was baptized at 13, was contacted at 25 by Jon Mitchell, a friend at Brooklyn Bethel, regarding the shake up involving Raymond Franz and others (didn’t listen), and finally, at 50 and unhappy, I read Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom (became inactive).
That was 10 years ago. I just read “Exiting the JW Cult: A Healing Handbook for Current and Former Jehovah’s Witnesses” by Bonnie Zieman. I can’t recommend it highly enough. I wish I had this info when I was young enough to make a real life outside JW.org. But whatever time I have left can be better. All’s well that ends well.
Reply
Lou Cee says:
July 22, 2015 at 7:43 am
One of the things us older folks can do is comfort the df’d ones online who come to these forums. Perhaps we can make a difference in the awful suicide rates of the df’d. If they just hold-on, they will find new friends and even “family” here on the web.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
July 22, 2015 at 9:52 am
Lou Cee,
What a lovely and kindly idea. One of the things that makes human beings so amazing is our ability to show compassion to others, even though we have never met them.
We have all found solace and respect here, and on other sites on the web.
It makes me happy to think that there are so many ex Jehovah’s Witnesses who really want to help current and ex JWs to find a way to live a full and happy life after the cult.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Queen Elsa says:
July 19, 2015 at 11:01 pm
Yep, me too!
Reply
anonymous says:
July 19, 2015 at 3:41 am
When you read between the lines of that letter to the elders, you can see the Society is losing ground but true believers will see that it’s a smart move to close down Kingdom Halls where attendance is low and drive to distant Kingdom Halls.
What the rank and file don’t see is that the Society will get the money from these fire sales and sock it away in their off-shore accounts where nobody can get their hands on it or they will reinvest it in more and more property.
What I also foresee, is faders and old people dropping out when they have to start driving long distances to their new Kingdom Halls and having to pay for the gas and getting home so late. I think it will be a good excuse for the faders and doubters and old people and people with young children to stop going and with fewer and fewer people attending, it will be more and more discouraging for those attending and then as the old ones die off and the younger set going on the internet and seeing the “truth” for what it really is, I see it dying off in maybe 20-30 years. By that time, the Governing Body will be all dead but the Watchtower corporations will be the richest organizations on the earth with the sale of all their Kingdom Halls and assembly halls and branches.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
July 19, 2015 at 5:34 am
Superb article!
Reply
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Is Watchtower imploding? 10 reasons why the end could be nigh
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Posted on July 17, 2015
Are we witnessing the beginning of the end for Watchtower?
Are we witnessing the beginning of the end for Watchtower?
For many current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses who find themselves victimized by Watchtower’s cruel cult-like practices, the prospect of witnessing the end of the organization seems too good to be true.
Especially when you have spent many years being sold false promises of extraordinary future events, it’s understandable that you would be wary of getting your hopes up over something as significant as the downfall of the organization that misled you.
I obviously won’t make you any promises, because I have learned to be extremely cautious of wishful thinking in all its forms. But when I look at what is going on with Watchtower, I see an organization falling from grace at a rate faster than I could have ever reasonably envisaged.
The latest evidence of the organization’s free-fall comes in the shape of a letter to all elders in the United States branch territory, dated July 8, 2015. You can read about Watchtower’s new “master plan” yourself, but essentially it adds a further caveat to their smash-and-grab, stealth-tithing maneuvers from last year. (Thanks go to JWleaks.org for first making this letter available.)*
The new letter essentially says to publishers (or doesn’t say to publishers, because it’s an elders-only letter): “Not only are we going to make you promise to send us money every month for maintaining a kingdom hall that isn’t owned by you in any meaningful sense, we are also warning you that we might sell your kingdom hall, pocket the proceeds, and send you to go share someone else’s kingdom hall while STILL taking your money for the kingdom hall we’ve just sold.”
Rather than write an exhaustive summary of the letter, and re-hash points I have already made on this matter from previous articles, I thought I would take a different approach by adding this latest development to my list of 10 reasons why I believe Watchtower COULD be about to implode. Here goes…
1. Jehovah’s Witnesses are becoming a toxic brand
toxic-brand
The internet is more hostile than ever regarding Jehovah’s Witnesses. As the world becomes more aware of the cult phenomenon (thanks in part to the success of documentaries like HBO’s “Going Clear” film about Scientology) journalists are becoming less squeamish when it comes to highlighting the cult-attributes of the organization in newspaper articles and news broadcasts.
Ex-Witnesses have already turned YouTube into a no-go zone for believing Witnesses, and continue to explore ingenious strategies for reaching out to those under Watchtower’s spell. Even non-Witness blogs like Hemant Mehta’s Friendly Atheist are now rallying to the ex-JW cause and becoming increasingly vocal about the organization’s harmful practices. All this means it is harder than ever for Witnesses to find new converts, and easier than ever for Witnesses to wake up.
2. Less “spiritual food” is being printed
spiritual-food
The wafer-thin magazines on the literature carts testify to a huge drop in printed output of 39% for monthly magazine printing since 2005. If God’s one true organization is flourishing, why has it so drastically scaled down on its “spiritual food?” The simple truth is, printing is expensive. VERY expensive. A good gauge of prosperity for any printing organization is its printed output. If a printing company has a problem, it will print less stuff. That is exactly what we have already been seeing for some time with Watchtower.
3. Globally, the organization is in retreat
retreat
Watchtower has been shutting down branches at a rate never before seen, with branch numbers plummeting from 118 in 2009 to just 90 as of last year. The organization used to pride itself on its global footprint, and would herald the dedication of new branches as evidence of God’s backing for the global preaching work. Now Watchtower is in open retreat, using single branches to run the affairs of multiple countries. RTOs, or “Remote Translation Offices” (think of an RTO as a Bethel-lite), are seen as a way of keeping some kind of presence in far-flung territories, but the glory days of Watchtower’s relentless global expansion are fast disappearing in the rear view mirror.
4. The begging has started
begging
For the first time in the organization’s history, the Governing Body openly admitted to a shortfall in needed funds in the May 2015 JW Broadcasting episode. This unprecedented move was made despite Watchtower making 1 Billion from selling off its Brooklyn portfolio ($375 million in one transaction alone), which could indicate the Brooklyn proceeds have already been spent. After all, when there is zero accounting transparency, we have no way of knowing how indebted the organization is. No amount of revenue from property sales will be much use to Watchtower if it is all getting sucked into a bottomless pit of accumulated debt.
5. The stealth tithing has started
tithing
Expect an organization in financial peril to desperately claw around for ways of bringing in more cash from available assets. In Watchtower’s case, they are prevented from demanding money from individual members, because this would be classed as “tithing” – a practice associated with false religion that the organization has condemned since its inception. What Watchtower CAN do is tithe, not individuals, but congregations. This is precisely what the new “Local Design/Construction” arrangement has achieved.
Last year elders were forced to promise a fixed amount to be donated to Watchtower every month from their congregation account, based on (1) what the congregation was already sending for paying off a building/renovation loan, or (2) anonymous slips of paper passed around so that publishers could indicate what they could afford to pledge. Congregations were even told to send any surplus funds squirreled away for a rainy day to Watchtower, leaving just $5,000 plus three months’ worth of regular operating expenses.
Amazingly, the majority of Witnesses continue to be oblivious to what amounts to a smash-and-grab, and are instead under the assumption that Watchtower has mercifully forgiven all kingdom hall building loans.
6. Kingdom hall ‘mergers’ are in store
fuel-in-car
As already mentioned, Watchtower has instructed all United States elders as of July 8, 2015 to be ready for their congregation to be re-assigned to a different kingdom hall if the organization’s new “master plan” deems this necessary. The letter marks the green light for the downsizing we are already seeing at branch level to be soon rolled out at congregation level, and is again clear evidence that Watchtower is desperate to claw in money wherever it can and become a smaller, more financially nimble organization.
The end game would be kingdom hall multiplexes in city-center locations shared by five or more congregations – a far cry from the parochial feel older Witnesses will be accustomed to.
As delightful as it is to think of such a huge regression in the local presence of the organization, you can’t help but feel bad for all those long-standing Witnesses who have donated thousands over the years under the false assumption that they were responsible for their local kingdom hall’s upkeep. Soon, for all their kindness and generosity, such ones may face lengthy and costly car journeys to intimidating, soulless, inconvenient city-center locations allocated to them by Watchtower.
7. Personnel are being jettisoned
kicked-out
Last year district overseers received the unwelcome news that their positions no longer existed, and they were surplus to requirements. Though some will have been demoted down to circuit overseer rank, the majority will have been jettisoned by the organization to fend for themselves – an entire strata of the organization’s hierarchy dissolved, and deemed no longer serviceable or cost-effective.
In a similarly unceremonious manner, workers at branch offices subject to closure by Watchtower have been cast adrift, with years or even decades of loyal service apparently counting for very little in the organization’s quest to make ends meet. The recently-emerged story of a Wallkill bethelite who was virtually thrown out on the street due to “cutbacks” suggests that the organization’s top brass have no qualms when it comes to wielding the axe. Bethelites in Watchtower’s heartland would do well to watch their backs and plan for the worst as the organization looks to slash spending wherever it can.
8. The secret weapons have failed
secret-weapon
Despite all the fanfare and hype, JW.org has been unable to attract internet-savvy non-Witnesses – its main target audience. It is, quite literally, preaching to the converted. The 2015 Yearbook boasted that JW.org received 850,000,000+ total visits in the first two years from Aug 27, 2012 to Aug 31, 2014. This figure sounds impressive until you factor in the number of Jehovah’s Witnesses – 8 million. Assuming every active Witness visits their own website at least once per week, you arrive at only a slightly lower figure of 832,000,000 visits over the two years (8,000,000 x 52 x 2).
And despite succeeding in making the organization more visible, there has been no notable increase in baptisms in the two years since the literature carts (or “metropolitan witnessing”) program was launched. After all, getting literature into someone’s hands won’t stop them going on the internet and fact-checking when they get home. And that’s assuming anyone is interested in approaching the carts to begin with. In this Guardian article, the reporter watched some carts in a busy part of London for an hour, and the only person who approached the Witnesses did so because they needed directions.
9. The child abuse floodgates have opened
flood
As was predicted at the time, there has been a relentless stream of child abuse lawsuits filed against Watchtower since the 2012 Candace Conti verdict. In 2013, a year on from the Conti judgment, lawyer Irwin Zalkin told me he had no less than 11 lawsuits on his books. Though many such lawsuits end up being settled, the success of the Jose Lopez case and the recent victory in London’s High Court have shown that if child abuse victims are willing to dig their heels in and stay the course they can have, not only compensation, but justice served.
All of this doesn’t bode well for an organization already under fire for its cult-like shunning practices and death-dealing prohibitions on blood transfusions. And apart from the atrocious reputation, with well-informed journalists like Trey Bundy spelling out the problems of organizational mishandling in the media, the money for paying off multi-million judgments and out-of-court settlements has to come from somewhere.
Even if the Governing Body sent a long-overdue letter out tomorrow FINALLY telling elders to report all child abuse accusations straight to the police, Watchtower would still have to answer to the backlog of lawsuits from victims who suffered while the two-witness rule was (is) still in place. Such victims may well have only a finite window of opportunity to get ANY money out of Watchtower at all.
10. Watchtower doesn’t have a PR strategy
head-in-sand
You’re an international, faith-based non-profit organization with a toxic brand both on the internet and in the media. Fewer people from wealthy, developed countries with internet are joining you, and thus donations are dwindling. For all the evangelizing and promotional work of your members, a few clicks on Google can completely dismantle your organization’s message. To make matters worse, you have mounting legal costs and settlements to pay for out of an ever-diminishing revenue stream. What you urgently need is a good PR strategy to make it easier to bring in fresh converts (and their donations) – but even here Watchtower is almost comically inept.
The organization’s PR strategy is essentially two-fold: (1) bury your head in the sand and hope your opposers eventually get bored and go away, or (2) refute the claims made by your opposers using outright lies (*cough* Rick Fenton). Both of these methods may help the likes of Tony Morris get to sleep at night in the short-term, but ultimately they are self-defeating. To neutral observers, silence is incriminating when damning allegations are on the table – especially related to harming children. And when you flat out lie about your damaging policies and teachings, you only give critics like me more rope to hang you with.
The only workable strategy Watchtower can pursue at this stage is one of reform, but past experience shows that any form of “compromise” is seen by the Governing Body as capitulation to Satan’s hordes. In short, Watchtower is sinking because its deluded leaders are their own worst enemies.
What does the future hold?
I do not for one moment suggest that we will see an end to Jehovah’s Witnesses as a religion in our lifetimes. The fact that there continues to be such a thing as the bible students, who still cling to Charles Taze Russell and his discredited, outlandish teachings, tells us that religions have amazing survival abilities even when members are deprived of their leadership. Faith, after all, is a product of people’s minds. When enough people believe the same unsubstantiated thing you have a religion, regardless of whether there is a person or organization to lead it.
But while religions are virtually indestructible, corporations are not. Non-profit organizations like Watchtower are just as capable of getting into debt as any other business. And when your bank manager starts bankruptcy proceedings against you because you can no longer service your debts, it’s game over.
The organization's glory days are already behind it
The organization’s glory days are already behind it
Those who suggest Watchtower is too big and successful to go down need only look at the fact that it has already been shrinking since it reached its zenith (in terms of branches and printing operations) some time between 2005 and 2010. Add to that the desperate clawing for cash over the five years since then, and you have the omens of an organizational collapse.
The winds of change have completely overtaken Watchtower in the internet age, and the Governing Body find themselves in a whole different ball game to their predecessors. If things are really as bad as I suspect, Watchtower needs to drastically downscale its operations to, say, a handful of branches and zero printing. In other words, it needs to become like its noisy neighbor Scientology, which despite having only 50,000-or-so members (and an even worse reputation) still has an impressive portfolio of valuable property scattered across the globe and minimal overheads compared to Watchtower.
But any downsizing of that magnitude would send Watchtower into an even more vicious spiral, in which it would start hemorrhaging even the most diehard members. After all, when you have spent decades pointing to your success as evidence of divine backing, how do you explain any sudden, sharp decline?
If Watchtower were to go bankrupt, it could always try claiming that the Great Tribulation has begun and Satan’s minions (their creditors) have started overtly attacking God’s people, but this simply will not wash with more intelligent Witnesses. Whatever is left of the organization (perhaps re-branded to ditch the Watchtower name entirely while retaining the Governing Body at the helm) would have a huge exodus on its hands.
It is precisely because of all the pride at stake that, in my mind, a sudden implosion seems increasingly plausible. Unlike ordinary commercial organizations who have the flexibility to change their size and scope according to the prevailing conditions, “God’s organization” can only be seen by its members to be going in an upwards trajectory for its grandiose claims of divine direction to have any credence. Any noticeable regression would rightly be interpreted as evidence of God’s favor being absent. Thus any problems would be allowed to accumulate behind closed doors until they reach a critical mass.
Of course I could be wrong, but if that is so then Watchtower is doing an awful lot of begging and downsizing for no particular reason, and with far too much to lose by doing so. It could well be that some incredible developments are ahead as Watchtower’s predicament further deteriorates, and the Governing Body slowly discovers that Jehovah isn’t coming to the rescue after all. I had better get on with writing my book while there is still an organization to write about.
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◾JWsurvey articles on Watchtower downsizing
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87 Responses to Is Watchtower imploding? 10 reasons why the end could be nigh
← Older Comments
ruthlee says:
July 19, 2015 at 8:04 am
dear i dont know what to do ive just come from a dead meeting all those little lost sheep with nothing of substance to say for themselves and i attended fs meeting afterward 2 elds 1 real pio not the pretend young who never support anyone but themselves see it for what it is and have hope in time you will see the path you need to be on meanwhile people like lloyd and others help you realise you are not going mad i too in 50s and frittered away my life but i hope and still believe in our creator and ihope the smashing instrument comes first to those who declare they have Gods authority the rot really has set in and the house will fail just dont let you and your family get caught in the crossfire and this site has helped me so much im truly grateful that like minded people exist and are willing to be kind
Reply
Darlene says:
July 21, 2015 at 12:45 am
Ruthlee, this is really hard to read. After a couple of words I gave up. I don’t want to be snotty, but with punctuation marks and maybe a paragraph here and there it is easier for the eyes to follow your words.
Thus giving them the attention they deserve :)
Reply
Kellyanne says:
July 24, 2015 at 3:10 pm
I just had to say that I think this was the most polite and appropriate corrective comment I have ever read. Thank you for being a good person on the Internet. You’ve made my day and inspired me to respond to people in a similar manner. :)
Reply
It'sJustMe says:
July 19, 2015 at 11:24 am
“If Watchtower were to go bankrupt…..”, Lloyd dixit, ….I would not hesitate for a second to celebrate this happy event with champagne.
Reply
Pam says:
July 19, 2015 at 1:52 pm
Hi Cedar,
Thank you for this information. However neither my friend or I could open the letter to the elders. Is there some other way to view it?
Thanks in advance,
Pam
Reply
Cedars says:
July 19, 2015 at 2:09 pm
Hi Pam! I’ve just checked again and the link above does work.
Be sure to click the blue rectangular box that says: “Click here to start download from sendspace.”
Thanks.
Reply
Cognitive Loop says:
July 19, 2015 at 7:06 pm
How I opened the elders letter linked in this article:
Go to site linked in article. Click the download link. There should be a pop-up box asking how you want the file: save it? or open it? Select “open”.
But here’s the trick: it requires a file reader such as Adobe/Acrobat Reader. Perhaps that is what is gumming up the works on your end? Or maybe a firewall/permissions setting?
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
July 20, 2015 at 12:09 am
Looks like Watchtower had the link to the elder’s letter removed from the JW leaks site server. The URL is null.
Reply
Cedars says:
July 20, 2015 at 3:26 am
Yes, the JWleaks/sendspace link no longer works. Fortunately the letter can still be read on this link… http://imgur.com/Ng4CYXy
Reply
Erik says:
July 20, 2015 at 1:56 am
Or…downsizing CAN be explained to the flock as a sign that we are sooo deep into the last days, all religions are under attack, even this one now. So soon Jehovah must act, because now Satan has turned his wrath onto His organization. Any negative happenings can be explained away like so!!
Reply
Lou Cee says:
July 22, 2015 at 6:44 am
Or, perhaps they will claim that the “sorting work” is nearly over. (face palm)
Reply
alain says:
July 20, 2015 at 4:06 am
Hi Lloyd,
Thanks for this sobering article…
But, about these facts:
1) the huge building process in Warwick ( the new JW worldwide headquarters)
2) the crucial need of more and more Kingdom Halls?
Looking forward to hearing from you the soonest,
Kind Regards
Reply
Cedars says:
July 20, 2015 at 5:47 am
Hi alain
The building project in Warwick is a property flip. They are building their new headquarters at a fraction of the cost of what they are making from selling Brooklyn, so it’s a money-making exercise rather than a statement that the organization is financially stable.
As to the stated need for kingdom halls, for this to be a “crucial” need, you would need to see a corresponding surge in the numbers of those baptized. Instead the growth figure has been hovering around the 2% mark for the last five years, indicating growth is stagnant and any perceived need for new halls has been there for many years.
Lloyd
Reply
Rae says:
July 20, 2015 at 6:40 am
Cedars
You’re spot on with so much you have to say about the Watchtower Society… my own experience… but to disavow the existence of the maker of all things because the messenger has become apostate itself…? No condemnation here at all. Just a suggestion for a little rethink. Is it possible that God has become ticked off and decided to do something about the falsehood in the Society?
Yours… Rae
Reply
Cedars says:
July 20, 2015 at 6:46 am
Rather than being based on my experience with the organization, my reasons for no longer being religious are due to the lack of evidence for a theistic God, but thank you for your concern.
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
July 20, 2015 at 7:32 am
Me too Lloyd
Im certainly not replacing all I have rejected with another ideology…
Evidence points in one direction only…
I refuse to ignore my powers of reasoning any longer…
Please never stop writing or doing your videos…
They have been an enormous help to me…
Helping me free my mind.
Reply
Free Thinker says:
July 20, 2015 at 7:10 am
Has anyone else noticed the use of the phrase “master plan” in paragraph two of the letter. How many dictatorial powers have used that phrase and come to nothing.If it goes wrong they can always blame the “master plan”.Imagine now Vincent Price laughing manically in the background.
Reply
LOL says:
July 20, 2015 at 8:50 pm
What a bunch of pathetic losers!!
Reply
Darlene says:
July 21, 2015 at 12:56 am
Probably (hopefully?) most elders won’t get fooled into thinking that WT is soo thriving that they don’t know where to put all the new sheep in (ha ha).
A sobering thought for me is: IF this letter would get to be known to the rest of the congregation, would they draw the false conclusion that this move is made because of exploding growth?
Oooh the organisation needs money to build more kingdom halls but it is still not enough! We also need to move closer together! Oh all the growth. Jehova must surely pour his blessing over the congregations…..
Isn’t that probable that JW people will just distort the facts to soothe their perception?
Reply
Everyday Explorer says:
July 21, 2015 at 7:47 am
What an incisive article. Thank you, Lloyd.
Reply
ScotWm says:
July 21, 2015 at 10:39 am
Over half of the 10 items listed as evidence that the Watchtower is headed for collapse are related to financial problems. Item 9, “The child abuse floodgates have opened”, appears to have the power to eventually destroy the Watchtower.
My attempts to obtain a realistic total of all Watchtower child abuse settlements has been unsuccessful. There are a number of confidential settlements, for which there are no amounts stated, as well as many multi-million dollar judgments listed as being appealed by the Watchtower legal department.
Regarding a recent California child abuse case: “In the Lopez trial, the Watchtower refused to provide its list of perpetrators, in violation of an order upheld by the California Supreme Court. It also refused to provide the longest-serving member of the Governing Body, Gerrit Lösch, who was subpoenaed.” The judge awarded a $13.5 million default verdict which the Watchtower cannot appeal. However, the Watchtower is currently appealing the amount of the judgment.
https://www.revealnews.org/article/jehovahs-witnesses-use-1st-amendment-to-hide-child-sex-abuse-claims/
Candace Conti was awarded $28 million, but the punitive damage award was reversed, leaving only $2.8 million in compensatory damages. There is no record of the Watchtower having paid Conti any amount at this time.
In any event, the number of child abuse cases is growing, the Watchtower’s delay tactics are becoming ineffective and the bills will eventually come due. The Watchtower will need a lot more than its children’s ice cream money to cover the child abuse judgments.
Reply
RK says:
July 23, 2015 at 4:29 pm
I’m curious about this desperate need for Kingdom Halls. They say they give money or money is needed for these halls. But I’ve seen them close down halls of older ones in Pennsylvania only to make them travel farther. It’s not like they gave the money back. They kept it. We live in the poorest area of Pennsylvania and still have to pay for our Kingdom Hall. So who is getting this donated money. Even the poorest areas and Kingdom Halls are self supported by their own donations and have to pay their own bills and loans from the society. So when they say there is an urgent need for Kingdom Halls. Where is this need? They act like they just give the money to those in need. But it generally is a loan. Even in a foreign 3rd world county. They don’t build an $800,000 Kingdom Hall. They build a cheap ass brick hut. That cost next to nothing and even those people have some funds to contribute. In fact, if they did not have funds on their own they can’t build a hall. So who is getting money to build a hall when it’s all loaned and not given. They have these people thinking it’s given to them for free to build. But again, I live in the poorest part of PA and not one of these halls gets the free money. In fact they all do this new tithing! They pay even when the loan is paid off. And again to re-state. They are an extremely poor area.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
July 24, 2015 at 9:00 am
@RK . Your comment is Spot on . You are SO Right.!! Even the poor JWs are expected to fund their own halls . So WHY Aren’t we JWs given a PROPER ACCOUNTING SHEET to show where OUR DONATIONS are Going . I suspect millions of dollars of our Donations are paying those CHILD ABUSE Victims which would be VERY EMBARRASSING to print out on a balance sheet!!
I suspect also the Governing a Body WASTED Millions on BAD INVESTMENTS in Stocks & Shares & Hedge Funds which We are allowed to invest in as JWs which is LAUGHABLE as the Stock Market is the BIGGEST CASINO in the World.!!
I know if each Individual JW knew the VAST DONATIONS that had been Squandered then they would stop donating tomorrow & the Watchtower would collapse that’s why the GB doesn’t print Balance Sheets except at an individual congregation level!
REMEMBER these Donations are HARD EARNED money from many Poor Brothers Who Have PAID their TAXES & are STRUGGLING to Survive or its ICE CREAM MONEY from millions of JW CHILDREN!!!
DISGUSTING & OBSCENE!!!!
Reply
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← Is Watchtower imploding? 10 reasons why the end could be nigh
The Unexpected Kindness of the World
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Posted on July 21, 2015
Random acts of kindness by "worldly" people are not as rare as most Witnesses might expect
Random acts of kindness by “worldly” people are not as rare as most Witnesses might expect
As a Jehovah’s Witness child, our religious community was seen as a spiritual paradise in contrast to all other organizations on earth. This mindset was routinely emphasized in Watchtower publications.
One Watchtower assures us that “[God] has made it possible for honest hearted ones to move out of the wicked world, figuratively speaking, and into the spiritual paradise that he has created.” (“Dwell on What Jehovah Has Done for You,” Watchtower, 15 January 2011)
Our worldwide brotherhood did seem rather impressive to my young mind. Wherever we were, it was no rare thing to find ourselves staying over and sharing dinner with new Witness “friends.” Over a home cooked meal we’d swap “How did you come into the truth?” stories, make small-talk over the latest Watchtower publications, and after us kids were hushed away to listen to taped Bible dramas, the adults might engage in gossip over those that had recently succumbed to the world.
“The world” was JW jargon to encapsulate everyone that didn’t happen to also be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Faithful members were encouraged to be vigilant, because any number of demonic lures could snatch a loyal Witness from Jehovah’s organization into the clutches of the wicked world. A hushed mention of the term was enough to carry my mind to Live Forever book illustrations; I mentally transposed the faces of the disfellowshipped over those of opium addicts, disco harlots, and gay cowboys.
1982_Live_Forever_Pg_131
Live Forever book, page 131
1982_Live_Forever_Pg_182
Live Forever book, page 182
This condemnation was not exclusively reserved for the unreligious. Other Christian faiths were considered to be part of the wicked world. And our religious publications seldom wasted an opportunity to contrast the JW version of Christianity with our competitors.
For example, the 2014 Yearbook contains the account of a Somali woman who accepted an invitation to visit a Kingdom Hall. There she grew angry when no one welcomed her and stormed out of the door. Later when she told her experience to the Witness that had invited her, they all realized that she had mistakenly visited another church building. The anecdote ends by sharing that the Somali woman eventually found the Kingdom Hall, was warmly welcomed, and became a regular attender.
Accounts like this are used to infer that even among the religions of “the world” there is no kindness like that of the Witnesses. There is another undercurrent that runs through this and similar JW anecdotes. A warm welcome is merely the first step in the conversion process.
As an adult, I began to see that the JW version of kindness didn’t always match the Watchtower picture. The initial love bombing was soon replaced by a sort of caste system that celebrated those that held position and disregarded those that didn’t live up to the heavy load imposed by the Governing Body. And those that ran afoul of any number of the religion’s rules might be expelled.
Witnesses that once rushed to embrace someone entering through the front door would as quickly turn away from someone shoved out the back. I experienced this myself when I was disfellowshipped for the crime of not agreeing.
After separating from the Witnesses, I accepted invitations to visit other churches. In attending some of these religious rivals, I couldn’t help but notice similarities. As I entered old churches, converted theaters, and the occasional dank basement, I was bombarded by smiling, Holy book-holding people. Questions such as “Who are you?” and “Are you visiting?” were quickly followed by invitations for Bible study and baptism. The jargon was different but the experiences weren’t far off from my JW background.
It also wasn’t rare for those groups to claim exclusivity due to the love they showed one another. An acquaintance that was raised in a high control group, commonly called the 2×2’s, talked about how his own childhood was marked by religious-vacations to stay at the houses of various “friends.” His mother was proud that they could count on anyone of their faith to take them in off the road. It sounded like my own family.
After I separated from the JW religion, it was sometimes a challenge to integrate into the world. A discomfort or awkwardness lingered when associating with people of different backgrounds. The stigma was all on me due to my upbringing. But over time I widened out and met people of different backgrounds – some of whom became real friends.
Recently I took a trip to western North Carolina, a scenic area on the east coast of the United States. My girlfriend and I were hosted by a couple who lived half-way up a tall mountain with gorgeous views of the scenery. We were complete strangers, just introduced online. We made shrimp and steak tacos for our hosts as a small thanks for the paradise-like accommodations that would have rivaled the most exclusive resort. As we drank frosty bottles of Negra Modelo with our new friends, we learned about their incredible lives.
mountain_home
The North Carolina mountain retreat where we stayed
He was 60’s student who enlisted in the military to serve in the Vietnam war before getting out as an objector after a crisis of conscience. Back home he became a street flower vendor before opening his own shop. She was an ethnobotanist that toured the world conducting research for National Geographic. He told us about the local foliage. She told us that cannibals loved SPAM, because it allegedly tastes like human flesh.
For example, many use tobacco, chew betel nut, or take drugs for recreational purposes. – “A Godly View of Life”, What Does the Bible Teach?
And she told us about betel nut. As a JW, betel nut was considered another of Satan’s machinations that could catapult an unsuspecting Witness straight into the world. It was up there with marijuana and tobacco, though no one seemed to know exactly what it was. Our host told us that betel nut was chewed by islanders from the age of nine onward. It resulted in addiction and the loss of teeth. Thanks to the Watchtower I dodged the bullet on that one. I could have had dentures at eleven!
The couple enthusiastically explained that they had made hospitality their way of life since touring Europe as young adults. Although decades had past, they vividly gave accounts of being approached to share a tent, roof or meal. When they returned to the States, they wanted to do the same and have continued to open their home to others passing through.
As we toured the local downtown an Eastern-European girl approached asking for directions. She was working as a counselor at a rural summer camp and was planning to walk back. The couple insisted they drive her. As we dropped her off and waved goodbye, we exchanged smiles and waves that transcended language. And there were no religious tracts exchanged.
We only stayed two nights, though our hosts implored us to stay more. Instead we set out to explore the local area, camping high in the middle of an expansive forest. By day we ventured down into the valley towns and city. One night we ended up staying too late enjoying cocktails and local music. A greeting to another couple led to another invitation to stay over.
The next afternoon another set of new acquaintances took care of our lunch bill. Beyond hospitality and food, we received housing advice, job leads, personal tours, conversation, and more. All came without an expectation of anything in return, not even a visit to a church building.
In religions like JW’s, kindness is not free or without conditions. When directed toward outsiders it is with the anticipation that it will lead to a conversion. But as easily as it is given, it quickly goes away whenever someone runs afoul of the religion. It’s true that in many places in the world kindness may be rare, but to insinuate that it can only come within one tiny Christian sect is simply false. It’s a lie told to enforce us-versus-them style thought control.
The more I’m exposed to the world, the more I’m exposed to genuinely kind people that give from the heart rather than religious obligation. And like my hosts, it motivates me to want to show similar kindness to others. Have you ever experienced unexpected kindness from “the world?” Please share it in the comments.
anthony-signature2
Anthony Mathenia is the author of a new JW fiction novel Happiness, Next Exit, to be released August 24th. Follow him on Twitter at @armathenia.
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55 Responses to The Unexpected Kindness of the World
sally1914 says:
July 21, 2015 at 4:30 am
The experience I’m sharing was my daughter’s. She and her husband went grocery shopping, gathering just over $100.00 worth of food. When they went to pay, every one of their credit cards/debit cards were declined! Close to tears, they had a stranger come along and pay their bill. They gave thanks to the Lord for providing. She has plans to open a room over the garage in her new home, for the homeless. They told me of this with wonder and tears.
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Angus Robertson says:
July 21, 2015 at 4:51 am
Great article. Since leaving have experienced so much unconditional kindness from neighbors and strangers alike. The support offered when my wife and I were DF’d (again for not agreeing) was incredible. You don’t need religion to be a good person and cults certainly do not hold exclusivity on hospitality.
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Kat says:
July 21, 2015 at 4:54 am
Being and older citizen and don’t drive because of a disability, my neighbor is always asking if they can take me to help with my shopping, this terrible worldly person asks nothing in return, however if I don’t ask JW they wont offer.
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Andrea says:
July 21, 2015 at 5:54 am
This was one of the eye-opening things for me when I left the JW community.
I had previously thought that there may not be a lot of kindness or generosity to see outside the org. How mistaken I was – so many people, some complete strangers, have turned out to be so kind or helpful without any agenda or expecting anything in return. I’ve similarly have met mean people, but I’ve also experienced the same from within the organisation… Truly, kindness or meanness is not determined by religion or lack thereof.
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Jill Hileman says:
July 21, 2015 at 6:28 am
It seems we all have the similar experience of shock and some level of dismay when “worldly people” prove to be so much more than the religious stamp assigned to them, so much more than the stark portrait painted to keep us distant and fearful.
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Thinking of leaving says:
July 21, 2015 at 7:10 am
To be honest I found the way I was treated when exiting to be some what perplexing. I was actively involved (well at least superficially as a publisher)for 4 decades in the religion.On finding out TTATT and beginning my fade I had not one elders visit, and only 3 publishers on 2 separate visits could be bothered to knock on my door to see how I was. In my life time I knew 1000s of witnesses and it still blows my mind to think how they will mindlessly go D2D knocking on empty houses and yet give so little attention to those exiting out the back door. Well it’s not like I’m complaining however. Keep up the good work Watchtower!!
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Ken says:
July 21, 2015 at 7:31 pm
I had a shepherding call from a ” Sister” I knew from my childhood Kingdom Hall , she knocked on my door in 2008 after my father passed on . Strangely we left the J Ws back in 1985 . So think how long it’s been since I have actually seen a Jehovah witness ! It took them almost 20 years to remember me and my mother . It shows how leauk warm they are.
By the way Iam still waiting for the Saturday morning knock…..
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StrongHaiku says:
July 21, 2015 at 7:25 am
That was a great article and resonated with me. You asked the question ‘Have you ever experienced unexpected kindness from “the world?”’. I would answer with an unequivocal ‘yes’. Further, I would say it wasn’t until I have been out for a while that I learned how I had been indoctrinated to be xenophobic, sexist, racist, classist, etc. by this religion and the God it follows. And, this makes sense as one of the central tenets of religion is to make the in-group feel privileged and special by dehumanizing and demonizing the out-group.
If you have left the JWs, you may be happy (and feel smart) that you no longer follow a corrupt organization. However, you may still have a lot of work to do to reconnect with your humanity. Take the time to revisit everything you believe (and assume) beyond the theology. You may find you are still carrying a lot of bad ideas and baggage.
When I compare who I am today vs. who I was before, I am ashamed. Based on how I see things today, I don’t think I was truly a good person then, but I am working on it…
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Steve McRoberts says:
July 21, 2015 at 7:37 am
Great point, StrongHaiku. I feel exactly the same way.
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Darlene says:
July 21, 2015 at 10:58 am
I feel the same and appreciate you bringing that out in hte open!
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Darlene says:
July 21, 2015 at 10:59 am
the… typo. :-)
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Grace says:
July 21, 2015 at 3:41 pm
@StrongHaiku,
Everything you said in that comment was so true & how much I observed over the years myself too. I couldn’t have said it any better than that. “Xenophobic, sexist, racist, classist”.
I happened to be watching the original 1984 movie with my nieces the other day. We go to the bit where the crowd were watching the big screen shouting “hate! hate! hate!” & I turned to my niece & said this is like the outward aggressive version of being a Witness. You’re subtly indoctrinated to hate. Hate the world, hate gays, hate other religions, hate anyone that is not a JW & sometimes even hate those that are, hate the disfellowshipped but most of all, HATE APOSTATES!!!!
And they can deny that they hate but at the end of the day, they are wishing for all of these people to be dead one day.
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anonymous says:
July 21, 2015 at 8:40 pm
Grace, a couple days ago, my husband’s exact words were: “I revel at the thought of all those people dying at Armageddon”. He was talking about anybody who isn’t a JW. I repeated to him what he said in a question and he repeated it and said it again “Yes, I revel at the thought of all those people who aren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses dying at Armageddon.”
The Bible says that God doesn’t want anybody to be destroyed (2 Peter 3:9)
Marty says:
July 21, 2015 at 7:32 am
I experienced this when the JW I worked for, along with his son, suddenly let me go after 15 years of hard graft without as much as a “Thank You”.
Struggling financially I finally had a job offer from a “worldly” person for full time employment. The reason he asked me was that the guy he had before was unreliable, lazy, incompetent and a liability. That guy was, and still is a JW!
So, yes there is such a thing as genuine kindness in the “World”!
P.S All the folks I have met since leaving this toxic cult have proven far more loving and sincere individuals than most of the JW’s I knew for the 23 years I was “in”
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Steve McRoberts says:
July 21, 2015 at 7:33 am
Great post, Anthony!
Changing names, but here’s a true story.
Paul and Mary were in the same congregation and kept in touch by mail after he had faded and she had disassociated. There was no romantic ties, as there was a big age difference, and Mary was married: they were just friends. One day Mary wrote to Paul that her daughter, whom she had at 16 and had given up for adoption, was now an adult and had tracked her down. She and her daughter corresponded for a while, and they desperately wanted to meet in person. The problem was: they were both poor, and lived across the country from each other.
Paul, though he was working part-time as a janitor, bought a non-refundable round-trip plane ticket for Mary to visit her daughter, and mailed it to her. Mary was overjoyed and she flew to meet her daughter and had a tearful reunion.
A sad postscript: Shortly after this, Mary went back to the Witnesses and immediately cut off all contact with Paul.
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John Baptist says:
July 21, 2015 at 8:30 am
First of all good article Anthony. These are subjects that are good to cover in order to see the True reality of this Man made Religion that requires you to serve their leaders unconditionally but yet in return they put conditions on you being accepted in to their fold. How Sad and completely wrong.
True Love and compassion is UNCONDITIONAL!
And there are countless humans in this “WORLD” that display this on a daily basis.
But when your a Billion dollar toxic cult that indoctrinates its members by throwing out LABELS and hoping they stick, you really realize how far off base and out there they are in their thought processes.
I have been that child who was required by force to conform since the age of 10 and was forced to be baptized at 15 or else.
Since not agreeing with their false prophecy’s but remaining a Christian i was ousted out and what ensued was beyond belief. And they call this LOVE?
My then wife told me i was not worth investing in since i was not part of the religion anymore and degraded me and forced me out of the relationship. Again a relationship based on conditions as well as a relationship with a organisation based on conditions.
So there i was tossed out like garbage and falsely accused of horrendous drama filled accusations without proof. Again is this unconditional Christ like Love in operation? Absolutely Not!!
The life that followed was of abrupt change to which i am so thankful and have not one regret.
Since being ousted to the “World” i have regained my mental stability in reality. Yes there are folks out there that are bad to be associated with but there are just as much inside those four Kingdom Hall walls who disguise it with their own dual personality. One when their inside the hall and one when their outside. We all know what i’m talking about here.
Since 1992 i have relationships with people who are really “Honest Hearted” and who to this day wouldn’t hesitate to call on for help and they would give it unconditionally. This is true love based on relationships that have stood the test of time.
In my circle of friends i would trust any of them and they likewise with me. And they all come from different faiths and backgrounds.
Its no wonder the Watchtower Society paints literally in their publications such worthless propaganda when it comes to the “World” because they hold you Hostage from seeing the Real “Truth” about it.
Wake up Folks and regain your own life back from this ever indoctrinating religion that TRULY wastes your life and time!
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anonymous says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:09 am
All the fifty years I was in the “truth” I was made to feel bad if I contributed to any charity that wasn’t the Watchtower organization. In the United States there are hospitals that take sick kids and they never receive a bill. There’s all kinds of charities for children with cancer and all kinds of illnesses that parents don’t have the money for. Even McDonalds has Ronald McDonald houses for parents to stay when their child is being treated for cancer.
When one of the three times after I stopped going to meetings, two elders stopped by to talk to me, I brought up that there are a lot of worldly people who do many good things for people just because they are good people and the two elders looked at me blankly and denied it and implied I was lying.
There are charities for children, animals and veterans from the military. There’s charities to help people live in homes that they can’t afford to buy. People start charities for people whose houses have burned up in fires and have suffered from floods. The list goes on and on but Witnesses turn a blind eye to it.
They turn their backs on anything that might help their fellow man and think that if they have an extra dollar in their pocket, the only honorable place to put it is in the contribution box at the Kingdom Hall because they think with that dollar, just maybe somebody might get a Watchtower magazine and read it and it will give them everlasting life in the new world. Their kids are even made to feel guilty if they don’t take their allowances and put that in the contribution boxes.
Now that I have left the Organization, I see those charities as what they really are. They are real charities, unlike the fake charity of the Watchtower Organization. The Watchtower Organization’s only charity is to take money for themselves so they can buy more property.
If anyone of Jehovah’s Witnesses comes into hard times, the Society will put the guilt on the Witnesses’
close friends to help them out.
You will never see a video from the Society where the Organization will help out the motherless child or the widows or the person who lost his job so he could attend the meetings. It ain’t never gonna happen. Not in our lifetime.
What Witnesses are told to do is put their trust in Jehovah. If Jehovah doesn’t help them out of their hard times, it has to be because Jehovah isn’t blessing them because they are doing something wrong and they will turn a blind eye to their problems.
If a Witness needs food or rent money or anything else, they will have to go to a worldy food bank or ask for charity from one of Christendom’s charities and this will happen, no matter how many years of free voluntary service that Witness did for the Organization.
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a jones says:
July 22, 2015 at 7:15 pm
Hi have a look on youtube to see what ABCnews and Good morning america have to say about Goodsearch.com a charity search engine and so that people use it rather than any other search engine it donates half the profits of each search to charity
Over $11 million to charity and the same for the company
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Average Joe says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:25 am
There are good people both inside and outside the JW organisation. JWs don’t have the monopoly on being nice, loving people. However, the other can be said too. Not every JW is a heartless self-centred individual either. It all boils down to who you are as a person, at your core. If you are a decent individual then that will shine through no matter what religion or creed your profess.
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Gameisover says:
July 23, 2015 at 12:55 am
Of course there are good people, potentially.
However when an individual is brain washed, fully indoctrinated, they will turn into monsters, practice shunning with their own children or parents and really believe that they are doing the right thing to please God. No exceptions.
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Gameisover says:
July 23, 2015 at 1:40 am
P.S. Also these potentially good people
never engage in any type of volunteer work in their communities. The sick, the homeless, the elderly, have only “worldly” people to care for them.
Last but not least, how good are people who are not horrified at the worldwide
slaughter promised by JW.Org?
They even go around parroting it to anyone that will listen.
I’m ashamed to have been like that for nearly 50 years. But it’s never to late.
In my case the change was almost immediate. I was willing to lose everything
and I did.
Since then I have found people that really care, that want nothing in return.
I work with the homeless in my city. There are thousands;we work with a group of 500 men. The degrade, the sorrow, the injustices, pale into insignificance with what some of us have suffered. They so appreciate every little thing. I have many little gifts from them, notes, even poem.
All the years in the full time work never gave the feelings I have now. Never the love, friendship, compassion, kindness, to this degree.
The homeless may be scary to begin with but as one gets to know them well unsuspected beauty unfolds. Like a Pearl
of great value…….
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Gameisover says:
July 23, 2015 at 1:40 am
P.S. Also these potentially good people
never engage in any type of volunteer work in their communities. The sick, the homeless, the elderly, have only “worldly” people to care for them.
Last but not least, how good are people who are not horrified at the worldwide
slaughter promised by JW.Org?
They even go around parroting it to anyone that will listen.
I’m ashamed to have been like that for nearly 50 years. But it’s never to late.
In my case the change was almost immediate. I was willing to lose everything
and I did.
Since then I have found people that really care, that want nothing in return.
I work with the homeless in my city. There are thousands;we work with a group of 500 men. The degrade, the sorrow, the injustices, pale into insignificance with what some of us have suffered. They so appreciate every little thing. I have many little gifts from them, notes, even poem.
All the years in the full time work never gave the feelings I have now. Never the love, friendship, compassion, kindness, to this degree.
The homeless may be scary to begin with but as one gets to know them well unsuspected beauty unfolds. Like a Pearl
of great value…….
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Catalina says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:29 am
Anthony Mathenia I agree with you. In religions like JW’s, kindness is not free or without conditions. This article is awesome. Please let me share my experience with you. The august 15, 2000 watchtower has an article called, The Only Way to Eradicate Hate. This article shows three sisters of James Byrd Jr are Jehovah’s Witnesses. In 1998 three white men dragged James Byrd Jr behind a truck for two miles because he was black. The coroner’s report showed James Byrd kept his head up while he was being dragged until he was killed. James Byrd Jr’s sisters feel Jehovah God and the Jehovah’s Witnesses religion is their haven from the outside world, (satan’s world). I can’t imagine how his sisters feel. I can’t imagine the thoughts they must have. If I was them I’d want to kill every white man I’d see. My father became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1943. His family is very bigoted and racist. For example : My dad’s sister is not a JW, she is baptist. Her daughter teaches in sunday school. She and her daughter speak very negatively about colored people. They call all colored people niggers and are hateful towards them in public. I was with them one time when we saw a white girl with a black man at a movie theater and they made rude comments to the couple. I felt very uncomfortable. The couple got really offended and angry. I said to the couple, I’m sorry you guys, I don’t feel that way. They asked me why I hung out with them. If my father hadn’t become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1943 he would have continued to act like that. I’m glad I was raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses because I really did get something good out of it. I have problems with the religion but I have problems with all religions and I disregard all religions. My psychiatrist wants me to remember the good things I’ve experienced in life, love my JW family, forgive them and move on. I know I don’t want to be like my non JW family because they are creepy and hateful. My JW family is a lot nicer. I visit my jw family and they don’t know anything about my private life. I keep my financial situation, my sex life, my political views and my religious views to myself because I know those issues aren’t anyone else’s business. Fortunately I live in a different state from my family. I don’t get to pushy with my JW family. I know when to shut up. I’m learning how respect is given and received in therapy. My psychiatrist says it takes two things to be happy in life. 1.) Don’t expect everyone to agree with you. and 2.) Don’t expect everyone to like you. I’m in therapy for emotional abuse. It is helping. The idea of being a jw and being separate from the world helped my dad with his bigotry. My dad moved us to California in 1964 to get us away from his family. I’m glad the JW religion helped my dad improve his attitude with bigotry. My dad encouraged my brother to date a colored sister when my brother expressed he liked her ! my brother did so. Everyone is fighting their own battles in life. I’m learning from the group therapy. It’s rare to find a non dysfunctional family. People use religion as a crutch. Religious leaders abuse their power. Therapy teaches us to stay away from a particular family member who adds stress to our life. I’m not alone. In therapy I’ve learned this is what happens when people can’t agree to disagree. Articles like the one you wrote helps people a lot. Thank you.
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Average Joe says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:29 am
On a side point Anthony, I’d totally forgotten about the “Gay Cowboys”!
If Jehovah disapproves of Disco then I’m in big trouble given my hefty vinyl collection of Bee Gees, EW&F, Sly & The Family Stone etc! :)
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kofybean says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:37 am
“The world”. What a joke. The shoud of bigotry and racism stand before you.
“And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?” -Matthew 5:47
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:40 am
“worldly people” are naturally beautiful as they do not read JW Publications. Hateful teachings that Watchtower instills subtly into Jehovah’s Witnesses’ minds constitute a vibrant evidence than one can transform humans into animals so easily using hateful publications:
*** w07 7/1 p. 13 par. 4 Highlights From the Book of Ezekiel—I ***
We do not need to let our eye feel sorry for those who receive God’s adverse judgment or feel compassion for them.
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Queen Elsa says:
July 21, 2015 at 1:23 pm
Sounds like a sociopath.
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Average Joe says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:43 am
@kofybean.
Excellent use of scripture and a very valid point!
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Criticus says:
July 21, 2015 at 10:05 am
All,
I can only add what others & myself have said repeatedly by now:
The worst people I ever had to deal with are JWs; the kindest individuals I ever came across are “bad worldly unbelievers”, including those whose humanity, religiosity, and TRUE spirituality would let some of the most raging fundamentalist-JWs look like godless brutes.
It is as simple as that. I could append this with a long biography, relating my experiences as a long-time “Full Time Servant”, including work at several foreign branch offices. What I was forced to witness and to suffer there beggars all description; in general, it was rotten and corrupt; in part, it was criminal. Beyond my “glorious” Bethel experiences, I witnessed (and still do) recurring arrogance, conceit, self exaltation, hubris, vanity, sheer stupidity, coupled with crude and outright abuse of power on the part of very small and low characters across a number of congregations half around the globe. This has nothing to do with occasional “human imperfection”, as is the standard Watchtower excuse to brush aside those gross and intrinsic “failures and flaws” of the Watchtower system. The more I was exerting myself acc. to the book and by the letter in all that I deemed was laid upon me as my “sacred duty”, the more I got treated like crap within the sunny “spiritual paradise”. Even if you are a “model-JW”, this is no guarantee that you “are in ‘good standing’ “, and you still may get whipped, spanked, rebuked, berated, reprimanded, “counseled”, depending of who doesn’t like your face or your nose or may simply feel challenged by you or your very existence. Wherever I go, wherever I look within the “divine organization by its own grace”, I see the same distinctive spirit floating around and permeating it like a bad stench: One of arrogance, conceit, haughtiness and superiority. Needless to state that this is not the “spirit from above”, but it is “earthly, unspiritual, demonic”, James 3,15. It is not God’s Holy Spirit that is breathing through this manmade entity called “Watchtower”, or “JW.Org”, or whatever its fallible human leaders who deem themselves gods may still call it.
In contrast, during the past few years I had the pleasure and the privilege to meet people – non-JWs, “worldly people”, “unbelievers” by WTS-standards – who show respect, decency, politeness and appreciation, not only for a job well done, but for you as a person and a human being. Happily, it is suchlike people I am now having dealings with on a day-to-day basis, and it didn’t take much to realize what humongous cognitive dissonance any JW is hauling around who gets pounded into his brain by Watchtower/JW.Org that “we are the best, we are the only ones showing true Christian love” – really??? Just because “we” don’t take up arms to go to war? Read up on this and educate yourself, to see how many more there are who didn’t and don’t go to war – not bec. of being told by a human Central Committee, but bec. of TRULY being human, using their own god-given mental faculties, based on their OWN well-cultivated convictions. And how about this “weapon” – the “tongue that stabs like a sword” – isn’t this a weapon too? And oh how busy it is among all those gossiping, chattering, backstabbing, pettily critical, judgmental Witnesses who are talking behind each others’ backs, knowing exactly when, how & where Witness Such-And-Such miserably flunked and failed to live up to petty little manmade standards, “not doing enough” and not “being exemplary”.
“4 legs goooood – 2 legs baaaaad – JW goooood – non-JW baaaaad” – not in my book any longer, dear comrades & fellows.
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anonymous says:
July 21, 2015 at 8:16 pm
@Criticus, I have to say I agree with your assessment of the majority of the Witnesses that I am aware of in my old congregation and your description sounds an awful lot like the majority of the Witnesses that I know.
I know of a lot of Witnesses who are some of the nicest and humblest people you will ever know but the majority are just as you described, as far as the ones that I know and have worked in service with and been at meetings with.
So many times, I felt put down and not respected and going to meetings and service was really hard for me to do as it felt more like a punishment than anything else. I always felt like I “owed” it to the congregation to be an “encouragement” to the rest to go to meetings but every meeting made me feel depressed instead. When meetings make a person dread going and make you feel depressed, you should realize there is something really wrong with that religion. It took me going online and seeing how others like yourself that feel the very same way is what made me not depressed anymore. Thank you so much for your assessment of most of the JW’s that you know with your experience. Now I know, it was never me. It was the religion that makes people like that or else people like that are attracted to a religion like the JW’s. The majority are just not nice at all and very arrogant and judgmental. True, true, true.
About ten years ago we had a sister who was dying of breast cancer and the elders assigned a bunch of us sisters to take turns and go and clean her house for her even though she had teenaged children living at home who wouldn’t lift a finger to help her out. Her husband was an unbeliever and I think it was to impress him but the sister knew that the only reason we came was because we were assigned to do it.
A person can tell when the “love” is forced and not from the heart. She could tell. That poor sister was dying and the sister I went with, had no feeling for her at all at what she was going through.
Knowing she was going to die at such a young age and not being able to see her kids grow up had to be so terrible for her, but the sister couldn’t feel her pain and to her it was like oh well, she’ll be resurrected and we will see her again in the new system so what’s the big deal?
Reply
Criticus says:
July 22, 2015 at 8:25 am
I appreciate your feedback, anonymous. Thank you. And you are right: There are, of course, JWs who are truly good people through and through – but not bec. they are JW, that cannot be stressed enough. Their being “good people” is no “seal of quality” for the WTS, which I will henceforth call JW.Org, to “keep pace” with God’s “progressive” org. that is “moving ahead” (oh yeah? Quo vadis, WTS?). If there are “good” JWs, that’s because they have preserved a certain amount of individuality, sanity, humanity, intellect and good & common sense, despite JW.Org’s incessant rants as to “You must totally obey the GB, be humble, be submissive, don’t question; only if you are 1000% in line with our commands you will be saved at HM; showing love means going from door to door spreading our org-rules; you must do MORE MORE MORE ever MORE” etc. There are indeed some JWs who remain, and are still HUMAN.
It happened to me in my “exemplary JW”-heydays that I got commended by “worldly” people, and I, in my “You must bring nothing but praise upon JHWH’s organization”-delusion, “giving –a-good-witness”-OCD, “proudly” exposed myself as a JW to “use this opportunity” to present “Jehovah” – thus Watchtower – in a “good light”– and the curtains dropped: People would ADAMANTLY refuse to “connect the dots”, i.e., they did not accept making the combination of “Being a JW” with “Being a good worker, being a likable person” etc. Back then, it caused me to be huffy – now, I do understand.
Reply
rob says:
July 21, 2015 at 10:51 am
I absolutely hate the term “worldly people” and after leaving the witness religion I have made friendships with many people who are kind, spiritual and charitable and who are extremely trustworthy.
I knew some very wonderful people who were witnesses but unfortunately for many of those individuals friendship came with a caveat ” the witness religion comes first and friendship can only be conditional on being friends with those who follow the witness rules”
When I faded these individuals faded from me because I no longer was a witness. Makes me sad to think that people will allow themselves to be told who they can associate with and who can be a part of their lives.
Reply
Ted says:
July 21, 2015 at 10:51 am
While still entrenched in that awful religion, and indoctrinated
to think those outside were godless and selfish, I experienced
kindness from a total stranger that gave me pause.
On my way to work one winters morning, my old car stalled.
I lifted the bonnet ( hood) to check for any apparent cause,
when an expensive looking car going in the opposite direction
pulled up on the other side of the road. A well dressed man
came across to me asking if I needed assistance? which I did.
Between us, we decide the problem was a flat battery, he asked
if had a towline and he would pull my car to get it started, but I
did not have a towline.
He then produced from his trunk what looked like a small rug
and wrapped it round his front bumper ( fender) and said,
“As he couldn’t pull me along, he would push me.
He then turned his car around, in the opposite direction to his
intended journey, and without concern of damage to his own
vehicle, he pushed me along for several hundred yards till my
old banger sparked into life, Afraid to pull up, in case it stalled
again, I kept on driving, never even having the chance to thank
him. But all these years after I still remember his kindness.
Cult driven misanthropy is false. There are millions of genuine
Good Samaritans out there.
Reply
Darlene says:
July 21, 2015 at 11:03 am
I have always despised the term “worldly people!” I was brainwashed into the org for 40 years! My family and I have experienced some of the worst treatment from jw’s than I care to remember now. When I left and began to visit different Churches, I was always welcomed and encouraged! Not only the first time, but every time!
Reply
It'sJustMe says:
July 21, 2015 at 11:47 am
The seven pharisees of the “governing body” and their appointed underlings have much incentive to make people “in the world” appear as most unkind as possible in the eyes of their flock, violating outrageously on one hand some basic human rights, and manipulating on a second hand their flock to encourage them to remain without puting a question mark over their spiritual competence, making them swallow their “new lights” gluttonously.
Reply
Markw1509 says:
July 21, 2015 at 1:52 pm
My wife’s parents have been witnesses for over 50 years. They are now invalid and in their 80’s.
They desperately need help and the only help they get is from their daughter, my wife. Also, their local neighbours help them out whenever they need it.
As my wife and I are no longer witnesses, no-one in their congregation helps out at all, not even with visits.
The witnesses are selfish and do not display Christianity in any way. The neighbours, many of which are atheists, cannot do enough for my wife’s parents.
If my in-laws had to rely on witnesses to help them, they would have died of neglect years ago.
Pitiful and shameful!
Thank goodness for the neighbours!
Reply
Grace says:
July 21, 2015 at 4:02 pm
Remember how we were always told that no one else but the Witness have the love that we have as to give up our life for another. What a load of hot air!
Just to show that human kindness is out there, this story proves that one man was willing to put his life on the line for his mate. Julian Wilson, a pro surfer was emotional over not being able to get to Mick Fanning when the shark attacked his board. Scary stuff.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-21/fanning-returns-home-after-shark-attack/6635540
Reply
It'sJustMe says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:26 pm
If I compare during the last fourty years on one hand the respect and the kindness shown towards me by my various not JW employers (bosses) and colleagues , and the respect and the the kindness demonstrated towards me by the various “elders” in various congregations in various countries during that same time, I can say that the balance clearly weighs in favor of “worldly” people not trapped in the Watchtower cult. So happy to be 100 % out of the WT cult, now officially dissociated since five months.
Reply
Newlyout says:
July 21, 2015 at 10:04 pm
I left the organization when I was pregnant with my first child. Because we were striving to lead ‘simple lives’ my husband and I had very little extra money. I thought of all the baby showers I had attended as a witness for over 30 years and felt some sadness in realizing that I would not have that experience.
We had no close friends outside of the organization because we followed the counsel not to associate with the world. I had turned down many invitations from coworkers not only to their baby showers but also to their birthday and holiday parties.
One of the women at work who knew my story and who also had a baby at home mentioned my situation to her wife.
Her wife organized a baby shower for me. My work donated a wonderful venue to have the shower. Before any of this happened my husband and I had registered for gifts just in case any of our family still wanted to send gifts. (Many of them actually did and we were grateful). We went to the shower very happy just to have people gather together to celebrate with us but not expecting very many presents. We were shocked to see that nearly our entire registry of presents had been purchased.
Another coworker knew that we didn’t have a car at the time and loaned us his for free for several months after the any was born.
Several months later I was attempting to buy a crib on craigslist as our son had outgrown his Pack n Play. The woman selling it learned I didn’t have a car and delivered it to my house for free and included a very nice mattress for free as well.
I was completely amazed because when I left the organization I did so because I realized that they didn’t have the truth, but because of the propaganda which I had been taught from infancy and still believed I fully expected the ‘world to chew me up and spit me out’. I know that every experience I have won’t be as amazing as the ones I’ve had, but so far it hasn’t been anything like I feared that it would.
Reply
rusty says:
July 22, 2015 at 3:28 am
Example of watwatchtowers influence from Australia.http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/07/22/19/25/man-who-poisoned-fellow-church-members-milk-with-weed-killer-begs-to-be-spared-jail
Reply
DavidR says:
July 22, 2015 at 8:34 am
The whole myth about how wonderful the witnesses are to new people is entirely false.
What they mean is that if you show up in street clothes and are easily recognized as a non witness then they will put on their Love Bombing facade and play the part of the welcoming JW.
However, show up to a meeting dressed up like they expect, so that you look like just another JW that they just don’t know and you will see the real face of the organization. People will most likely avoid you and not have anything to do with you until they see an Elder/Servant/Pioneer talking to you. You might get one or two people say hello as they politely walk by, but you are not welcomed until there is some sort of confirmation that you are “safe”.
I wouldn’t have thought this until I moved a few times and was treated like I was radiated until my letter came and told them how wonderful I was. Then everyone wanted to talk to me and invite me over. It was really eye opening to how people are treated in the organization.
Reply
thebluepill says:
July 22, 2015 at 9:15 am
One of the last parts at the meeting that my wife had was entitled “How our unity and love is full-filling prophecy” or something to that effect. It was based on the psalm 133:1. The point was to show how dispite our different backgrounds, witnesses are the only group doing showing love and unity. We were already mentally out and this was going to be our last meeting ever. I told her I would write it for her and give an apostate leaning twist. I started with the “householder” (yuck!) stating how someone was rude to her and how she cant wait till Jehovah destroys all the worldly people ( how many times have we heard that before!). She mentions how awesome it is to be in an organization that is united and loves one another and quotes that scripture. My wife then mentions ” Well, is loving and caring for only our brothers and sisters really that big of a deal?” She replies with waht do you mean. My wife then quotes that scripture from Matt 5:47 that says basically its not a big deal. The talk then went on to talk about helping others and how preaching should not be the only way to show love for all.
I was sure that the elder in charge was going to counsel us and wonder “are yall apostates?” Throughout the talk I noticed the audience nodding their heads in agreement. They loved it. One sis said that it was one of the best talks she has ever heard and very refreshing.
This proves two things: this religion is filled with many who would reach out to ‘worldy’ people and other charitable orgs if allowed and , 2) are instead commanded to ignore what their savior has specifically commanded.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
July 22, 2015 at 9:39 am
What an excellent article, thank you Anthony!
I like the way you are writing a fiction about a fiction!! Very meta-textual!
We were taught to fear. We needed to fear. Without the fear, we would be swallowed whole by Satan, or if he was busy at the United Nations, one of his demons. No one should have to live that way. It’s just not right.
Eventually, that fear of the Other, or “worldly person” caused us to forget that they were a person. We were able to stomach that worldly person being killed in the most brutal way with no qualms whatsoever.
Christians, please read 1 John 4:16 – 19. The fear of “worldly people” is a restraint to any kind of compassion for people who are just like you.
For us atheists, we need to remember that fear, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. It is a survival mechanism, and is jolly useful if coupled with a reasonable assessment of danger.
The WTBTS, and other cults, ramp up the fear as a very efficient control technique. Control through fear of the Other is as old as the hills.
The sooner we all discover that most people are decent, the happier we will be. Obviously, there are a small minority who will want to harm us, but the vast majority of people are pretty nice.
It was really refreshing to read all of those positive stories. Human kindness is one of the things that keeps us all going.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
airborne says:
July 22, 2015 at 10:30 am
Thanks for the positive article.
Reply
Mama Joy says:
July 22, 2015 at 5:00 pm
“The World” saved me from the JWs abuse.
Reply
Wild Olive says:
July 22, 2015 at 9:34 pm
This is a post I have to make.
My son has been epileptic since 18 mths old and he has not long turned 18.
I have lost count over the years how many times he has been ambulanced to hospital,in all the times he’s been in hospital, and it’s hundreds of times, not once has he been visited by an elder or a member of the cong.
I can forgive that because everyone has their own problems and often can’t find time to see others,I spend most of my time recovering from his previous visit till the next episode.
However I began to see things differently when the government sent someone too see us ,to find ways to better care for our son, this person arranged all sorts of things that we could never have got, one in particular was oxygen donated by Anglicare,a Christian charity that gives assistance to those in need, I brought this matter up with my elders and asked them what where the chances that the WTBTS would give something toward my sons care,that was met with blank stares and a timid no.
What’s even more enlightening is Anglicare sends a representative to us every year to see if we are being looked after,he’s been here more times than the elders to check on us and our son.
Considering the millions that have been spent by org over the last few years and considering that they are asking for more donations, I can confidently say that not one cent has gone toward helping me or my son,and any help that has been received is from “worldly” people.
It has been most refreshing to look the elders in eye and say that the world is not the place that the org paints it to be.
Reply
Brian Muscat says:
July 23, 2015 at 1:06 am
It is interesting just like those TV adds the product that cleans brightens and whitens like no other so the WT claims how welcome people are made at the Kingdom Hall i have been to quite alot of meetings at Kingdom Halls and what was quite obvious to me was the total lack of love and the unwelcoming attitude i was shown and if you complain about it they just so oh you have got to make an effort however if you said how cold people were at any other faith they would immediately say how bad that was and say oh come to our KH instead just double standards as far as i am concerned.
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
July 24, 2015 at 10:55 am
So true, Brian.
Reply
GEM says:
July 23, 2015 at 1:28 am
It wasn’t like this in the mid-’60’s when my Father signed up and before the Elder arrangement arrived in 1972..
I remember quite vividly during F.S, an elderly lady came to the door with the palms of her hands sliced open, a kitchen accident. Dad is a highly trained First Aider and bandaged her up.
As he searched the kitchen cupboards for lint and plasters he noted that the poor Dear had virtually nothing in her cupboards. So, off we went to the local Tesco stores and he filled a large cardboard box with basics like Milk and bread…the essentials…We drove back, he placed the box on the doorstep, rang the bell and we pulled off in the car when the lady looked to see who had left the box on her door step.
The Servants of that congregation were very kind…but it kind of came to an end one day when Dad and some others bagged up some Coke from the local Council depot and distributed it amongst the needy.
Of course, it was against local Smog control regulations as it was used Coal! The council tracked the Servants down and reprimanded them. But, it was done out of love, even if the local area suffered choking emissions for a week or two.
Whoops!
Reply
Wanderer says:
July 23, 2015 at 5:18 am
Is the Watchtower Society the only religion that does no charity work?
How do they receive charitable tax exemptions if they do no charity work?
Why are they begging for money when they do no charity work? Similar sized religious organisations have their own charities and don’t overtly beg for money, I don’t understand how they have mismanaged their funds so much.
Reply
anonymous says:
July 23, 2015 at 7:35 am
I think they can get charity status because Witnesses don’t ask for a certain amount of money they leave with the householders and the elders aren’t paid a salary.
There is a lot of unpaid labor (charity) but it isn’t exactly voluntary, since if Witnesses don’t go in service, spending their money on the gas and cars etc. , they think they will be killed at Armageddon. The reason it isn’t exactly “voluntary” is because they are guilted into doing it or die at Armageddon.
The Witnesses are guilted into putting money into the contribution boxes to pay more for the upkeep of the Bethels and the Bethelites and the Kingdom Halls because they are told that everything belongs to Jehovah anyway and so whatever they have doesn’t belong to them anyway and belongs to Jehovah and they equate giving to the Organization as giving Jehovah back what He owns anyway.
All those Bethels and Bethelites and new digs at Warwick and the Kingdom Halls cost a whole lot more than it does for those cheap little magazines that people “place” with individuals.
One hundred years ago the Watchtower printed out that literature and sent it to people through the post office and the Society was still able to make money on it. You know they made money because of all the Bethels and branches they built with that money in those olden days. They accomplished a whole lot more in those days with less Witnesses in Bethels compared to what they do today with thousands of Bethelites and hundreds of branches. The magazines were 32 pages and the writing was packed into those pages. Now there’s more pictures and very little writing and hardly any true “meat”. Today, the money is going for all the Bethels and Bethelites and branches and all the trucks and heavy equipment and upkeep of the Kingdom Halls etc. The amount of money for the upkeep of all the Society owns and supplies food for those people running all those places, has to be staggering.
In the old days, Witnesses didn’t own their Kingdom Halls. They rented small buildings and they rented school gyms for assemblies. They paid for their own Kingdom Halls and they paid for the upkeep. They paid for the literature at the back of the Kingdom Hall as there was a set price for everything and then when they “place” the literature, they “sold” it for that price and the money was to be put in the contribution box so the Society was getting paid two times for that literature. That is how they made money.
When they couldn’t charge the Witnesses anymore (charity status being taken away then), the Witnesses were still told to put that money in the contribution boxes for the literature anyway but it was done in a subtle way, not overtly. The Society is still making money on the literature but it’s not enough to support all the building work and the Bethelites and the branches and all the upkeep etc. so they had to come up with more and more ways to “trick” money out of the Witnesses without passing the “plate” like they had always promised they would never do.
The money to make the literature pales in comparison to all that that has to be paid for but the placing of the literature is supposed to be the reason for the season but really, it’s just an ends to a means. The means is acquiring more property. As long as they take that money and put it into more “religious” property, they can still keep calling themselves a charity.
That is the way I see it.
Reply
Wanderer says:
July 23, 2015 at 6:20 pm
I still don’t know how they can’t do any charity work at all, do they not read the bible or seek to follow the example of Jesus?
I overheard some family saying how fantastic it is the Society direct debits from their bank accounts, now they will never forget to contribute. Hearing that made me feel uneasy that they are giving their hard earned money to help pay for the child abuse settlements.
Reply
Svete says:
July 23, 2015 at 6:40 am
Great article and yes I can confer that only after leaving did I notice the genuine selfless generosity of every day individuals, doing good deeds with no expectation of anything in return. Not doing it because it was the expected thing to do – but rather was because they wanted to and the right thing to do.
One of the things that I noticed is that as a JW you don’t oftern receive kindness from “worldly” people, and that re-enforces the “them and us” view of everyone in the world essentially following satan.
The reality is that JW’s appear so unfriendly, aloof and superior to others that other people don’t feel inclined to other kindness to them. Imagine a group of JW parents in the school ground picking up their kids. They don’t talk to anyone besides the other JW’s they dont volunteer, or invite other kids back to their home. Their kids don’t go to other kids homes etc etc. This unfriendly view they unwittingly create for themselves is the reason people often don’t offer kindness out to them – why would they?
It has nothing to do with them being in the “world”
The reality is that as soon as I stopped going those same people were honest with us, and then offered the same kindness they showed to everyone else – and it was truly genuine.
Add to that how many of them are genuinely happy and satisfied in their lives, their not gossipers and materialistic – compared to the JW’s who don’t realize how unhappy they are following an empty ideology, materialistic and forever gossiping about everyone, you see how genuine and normal these so say “worldly” people are.
Reply
Cherie says:
July 23, 2015 at 7:43 am
This post really resonated with me. My parents were inactive for many years. One of the reasons was they way they were treated in the congregation. I remember my mother saying, “Sometimes you find the people of the world are pretty nice.” She was right. That’s been my experience, too.
Reply
Bret says:
July 23, 2015 at 5:06 pm
The guy in the picture from page 182 of the live forever book is a Circuit Overseer by the name of Daniel Cukar.. Once you get to know him he is true to the picture on the right hand side.. Or at least his personality fits that picture of the looser.. He finds all the Elders who love to kiss up and pad his pockets otherwise he will have little to do with you..
Reply
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start-thinking
In June 2012, a jury in Oakland, California ordered Watchtower to pay $28 million for its role in the abuse of Candace Conti.*
In October 2014, a San Diego Superior Court judge ordered Watchtower to pay $13.5 million in punitive and compensatory damages for the abuse of Jose Lopez.
In June 2015, Watchtower was ordered to pay £275,000 to a victim of child abuse by the High Court in London.
*The amount and judgment were later reduced on appeal, with Watchtower still being required to pay $2.8 million in compensatory damages.
These are not isolated instances. They are not just the work of one or two rogue individuals. They are not persecution by Satan or the product of unjustified attacks by opposers. They are the result of specific, documented instructions issued to congregation elders by Watchtower on how child abuse should be handled.
This is a systemic problem, and sadly it will not be going away any time soon.
The reason why Candace Conti, Jose Lopez, and countless other children of Jehovah’s Witnesses have been let down is because the Governing Body views child sex abuse as a sin first-and-foremost, and only a crime by coincidence.
The “two witness rule,” according to which elders still operate today, means that they are to “leave matters in Jehovah’s hands” if an independent witness to an act of child molestation is not forthcoming. (see page 72 of the elders’ Shepherd manual, below)
child-sex-abuseWhen critics of Jehovah’s Witnesses talk about the organization “protecting” pedophiles, they do not mean that the organization’s literature condones or encourages child molestation. They are referring to the fact that Watchtower policies effectively conceal pedophiles and make it easier for them to operate due to the culture of secrecy and confidentiality that Watchtower insists upon.
In the following video, investigative reporter Trey Bundy explains some of the disturbing lengths Watchtower has gone to in order to keep the identity of child molesters secret.
All of this means that you have no way of knowing whether someone in your congregation is a child molester or not, because the Governing Body is more interested in protecting the reputation of the organization than protecting ordinary children.
All they need to do to change things, and safeguard against more child abuse cases in the future, is write a letter to elders telling them to report ALL accusations of child abuse to the authorities – but the Governing Body absolutely refuses to do this.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness reading this, you need to ask yourself: How can this be Jehovah’s Organization if it continues to put children at risk despite these adverse court judgments? If Jehovah’s clean organization truly abhors child abuse and considers it a crime, why can’t it allow all accusations of child abuse to be reported in the same way as other crimes (such as theft and murder) are to be reported?
The makers of this web page urge you to consider waking up to the possibility that only by confronting these issues and saying “enough is enough” can we bring about change and safeguard children of Jehovah’s Witnesses from those who would do them unspeakable harm.
We invite you to start doing research using some of the online resources listed below. And please don’t be afraid! Remember that if a God of love and truth really exists, he would never resent someone for trying to uncover the facts.
JWfacts.com
JWsurvey.org
WatchtowerDocuments.com
PDF of Crisis of Conscience
21 Responses to JWawake.com
Grace says:
April 8, 2015 at 9:02 pm
Great piece, well presented & simple to read.
I’m looking forward to more articles.
Reply
Patrick Haeck says:
April 9, 2015 at 3:03 am
Great job! Thanks!
Reply
Girma Terefe says:
April 9, 2015 at 3:49 am
who will responsible child abuse elders abuser who if hé déniés because thé elders do not have investigation knowledge.
Reply
Alex says:
April 13, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Need to translate it to several main languages. All people should know truth about JW.
Reply
Elder Johnson says:
July 16, 2015 at 9:19 am
I’m so glad to see this. It has made me realize the truth about the truth.
Reply
pj wilcox says:
July 16, 2015 at 2:32 pm
These bastards should be all sent to jail. There they will be confronted by men who will take care of what should be done to them. Prisons do not take lightly, men that molest kids sexually. We should have this on pay per view, make Budweiser a sponsor and give the monies raised to the victims. Hell, I would pay $50 for this.
Or castrate all that have been found guilty.
Reply
Former Pioneer says:
July 17, 2015 at 10:44 am
Thank you! This is a great resource and kudos to everyone who helped on the billboard in Texas.
Reply
Hilani Morales says:
July 17, 2015 at 3:29 pm
I was molested for years by a Jehovah’s Witness named Carlos Buten in a Boston Ma Kingdom Hall. Myself and the other victim (who is 2 years younger than I) were interrogated by a room full of men and were asked if our intentions were to hurt him or cause trouble. They then asked us to get into painful details about the sexual abuse. After it was over we were given clear instructions not to contact authorities or tell other members in the congregation about the abuse in order to safeguard brother Buten’s confidentiality. He remained an active member in the congregation and continued to play with other children in the church. I was eventually placed in foster care because of my parents’ neglect to protect me against my molester and for my father’s physical abuse. As for my father’s relentless beatings, I was instructed to pray to Jehovah and everything would be ok. Sometimes my father even beat me during Kingdom Hall reunions in the back room. To this day I experience ptsd from all of the abuse I experienced as a child under the leadership of Jehovah.
Reply
big Kat says:
July 23, 2015 at 8:33 pm
Don’t worry……..? They’ve already earned their way to hell
Reply
Grace says:
July 23, 2015 at 8:59 pm
I’m so sorry that you went through so much as a child. It always amazes me how these stories are similar from around the world & victims are made out to be liars & put through such horrendous questioning.
I hope that you will find some healing one day in your life.
Love & peace.
Reply
Ray franz says:
July 18, 2015 at 9:12 pm
I hope they go on to research rand cam, the military company the Watchtower owned, you can check it in the U.S. GOV SEC files to prove it. I hope they research the UK guardian newspaper article on the Watchtower agreeing to support the U.N for over a decade. I hope they research the recent governing body member that left having seen how it was run at Brookly Bethel, writing a vital book to read as a JW called “Crisis of Conscience”… I hope the fear they feel at even THINKING about doing any of this research, gives them s clue that there is something wrong with their beliefs……. Snare x
Reply
M. says:
July 20, 2015 at 3:45 pm
Thanks!
Reply
Average Joe says:
July 21, 2015 at 9:15 am
Child Abuse really is inexcusable as is a cover-up of such abuse.
However, I would like to add my thoughts to the discussion at hand. As an active elder (and I also consider myself a pretty decent human being) I can assure you that if I ever came across a case of child abuse or domestic violence, then I would certainly not keep quiet about it. I would urge the innocent individuals to go straight to the police with my full support.
As for a case where a know child abuser is in a congregation, I again would make sure everyone knew about it, even though that would be anonymously so as to avoid any lawsuits. It doesn’t matter what the WT Official Policy is on the subject; I know what the right thing is to do.
Now, I can’t be the only JW that thinks like that. There are corrupt and perverted individuals in any organisation but I’m not one of them and I would do my part to expose any I came across. Hopefully, I will never have to be in that situation as the very idea of being faced with a child abuser is repulsive to me.
On the other hand, I am pleased for the victims in the aforementioned cases that they are finally getting justice, despite the cover-ups from their corrupt supposed shepherds or elders. I just hope that they manage to find peace as well as happiness after such an ordeal.
In reply to PJ Wilcox: Castrate them? Seriously? I’d reserve that for rapists. Child abusers should have the death penalty in my humble opinion.
Reply
Rick Dudd says:
July 22, 2015 at 12:57 pm
Good on you! It was issues like this and others that caused me to yield to my conscience and relinquish all of my privileges. You have to do what lets you sleep at night, but I can appreciate that you recognize where the policy is in the wrong.
Reply
Jorge Sanchez says:
July 23, 2015 at 6:41 am
Los audios , el sonido “no se escuchan bien.
Reply
lilianne says:
July 21, 2015 at 7:30 pm
Great initiative!
Hope the next billboard will be in an area of high population density.
Really like the billboard.
Let’s put it to good use and make it more visible !
Reply
Real says:
July 22, 2015 at 2:02 pm
The latest stand of JWs is to report all cases of child abuse directly to the authorities. You should really stay up to date with the latest developments if you intend on hounding the JWs on this issue.
Reply
Cedars says:
July 22, 2015 at 2:07 pm
Nice try, but you’re not correct. You’re quoting from your dear leader, Tony Morris, who said in the July 2015 JW Broadcasting episode that parents are never dissuaded from reporting child abuse to the authorities. That is a LONG way from the Governing Body instructing elders to report all accusations of child abuse straight to the authorities, which they could easily do in a single letter if they wanted. The latest elder instructions were in the October 1st, 2012 letter to elders, which kept the two witness rule and branch jurisdiction firmly in place. Please do your research. Tony Morris may be a Governing Body member but he is not to be relied upon to say sensible things about clothing, let alone give you the organization’s position on child abuse.
Reply
JWpoo says:
July 23, 2015 at 7:39 am
Go on cedars son!!!
Reply
Timothy Riches says:
July 23, 2015 at 10:39 am
Current Jehovah’s Witnesses should ask themselves how much more reproach has been brought upon the organization by the leadership’s way of handling of child sex abuse and their maintenance of policies that exacerbate the problem. No one argues that the Watchtower wants children of it’s members to be abused, but the shielding of perpetrators and the infamous ‘two-witness rule’ encourage child sexual abusers in the congregations. Members are encouraged to never bring reproach upon the organization, which makes reporting of such horrible, life-altering crimes extremely difficult. The Jehovah’s Witness organization has become a ‘pedophile’s paradise’. What are the chances that Jehovah looks on it with approval?
Reply
Paul says:
July 23, 2015 at 1:45 pm
I agree with Cedars, the current policy is not one of reporting it to authorities.
Check the elders book “Shepherd the Flock” and latest letters and the clear intent is to minimize damage to the good name of the congregation and keep things quiet. The rights of the victim are not paramount and never have been.
The system including the 2 witness rule is blatantly wrong & un-workable to any thinking person. Since when do child molesters commit their crimes in front of any witnesses? Their cowardly advances to young vulnerable children are done in secret with strong pressure on the child to keep it secret. Hardly likely to be a witness to it except the victim!
Reply
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11 Responses to Videos
KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
Reply
george says:
August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
Sorry Cedars, I can only access the first video on my I pad. There are a lot of over sized play icons and they won’t work.
Reply
Luke says:
October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
Reply
Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
Reply
Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
Reply
Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
Reply
Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
Reply
Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
Reply
Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
Reply
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