JW Survey recent articles and comments reposted part 1

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About JW Survey

A message from the founder of JWsurvey.org…
It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.
The Governing Body has yet to express any interest in hearing the views of ordinary witnesses. Their mantra is: “We talk, you listen!”

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!
This website seeks to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that is conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.
The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking. Subsequent surveys promise to attract even more attention as our website steadily grows in popularity.
A website for all
This site has been created and made available online so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about the organization and its governance.
We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning that we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored this survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.
Who started this website?
I write under the name John Cedars. Until recently I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I left for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.
I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.
It is my belief that not all is well within the organization, and many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body are not formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.
An unmerciful practice
For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows: “But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man… remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor 5:11,12)
Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians about the disfellowshipping arrangement never called for family members to be torn apart

Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.
There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home. But why should it end there?
Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees: “Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:13, New World Translation)
Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age, are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.
The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.
The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said, “Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.”
These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.
Only human
It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that is truly observant of the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.
The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.
I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.
Warmest regards,
 
new-cedars-signature2

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276 Responses to About JW Survey


Newer Comments →
 
 CARLOS FARINHA says:

 September 19, 2012 at 8:21 pm
 
Boa noite.
 Nunca desista do seu trabalho.
 Os cristãos primitivos eram humildes e sinceros.
 Continue e revele as mentiras do ” corpo governante ” .
Obrigado.
Reply
 
 
 Aonymous says:

 September 22, 2012 at 11:39 pm
 
WBTS are Criminals….
Reply
 
 
 A Happy Witness of Jehovah says:

 September 25, 2012 at 11:37 am
 
Some of the comments offered here are sounding like apostasy to me. I would not ever want to voice such opinions as the ones even by the founders of this website. I truly believe this is “Jehovah’s” organization and the fact He uses imperfect men does not make it any less His. When one speaks out against His earthly organization they are speaking out against His ability to make sure things are done properly. We must have faith that errors will be corrected and adjustments will be made. That does not make Jehovah’s teachings erroneous but merely a fact when men are used. We know His Holy Spirit is always prayed for and is a guiding force for all. Did you ask for His spirit when you decided to voice your opinion for all to see? Did you ask His guidance for the website you have created? You have given voice to apostates which we are never supposed to listen to. How does that make you feel? It makes me sick to even think about it. I am sure the “first” apostate is very happy. Thank you for the space but I really hope you will pray for Jehovah’s guidance and really think about what you are publishing. Some of it is shameful.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 September 25, 2012 at 1:57 pm
 
I’m sorry you feel that way. Is there anything I’ve written on this website that is demonstrably false? If so, please draw it to my attention and I will gladly look into it.
Reply
 
 
 Emma says:

 January 21, 2013 at 12:20 am
 
Well said! I agree with you! :)
Reply
 
 
 Truestory says:

 March 7, 2013 at 7:10 pm
 
In Jonestown they believed in Jim Jones as the ultimate spokesman for god so much until they were willing to die with him… Will you drink the kool aid if they ask you to?
Reply
 
 
 
 a former witness says:

 September 26, 2012 at 5:42 am
 
A faithful Jehovah’s witness couple survive the battle of armaggedon.They notice that there is no survivors in the immidiate vicinity and are so happy to be alive in the new system that they start making love to each other. Just at that moment a faithful Jehovah’s witness who died is resurected.He hears some noise and a rustling behind the bushes and goes to investigate. “Thats not fair!” he shouts, “they make it through armaggedon alive and now they’re breeding like rabbits, and yet I died and was resurected and not only am I not supposed to have sex, I’m not even allowed to masturbate!”
Reply
 
 
 songofecho says:

 September 30, 2012 at 10:10 pm
 
I always thought that was unfair. Many JW’s are told to wait until the paradise to have children, and many who wait die before armaggedon and will never be able to marry and have children. The JW’s don’t believe resurrected ones will be allowed to have sex, but they teach that even if Abraham had sacrificed Isaac, Jehovah would have resurrected him to fullfill the prophecy of Isaac being the father of a great nation. How would that have been possible if he couldn’t have sex?
Reply
 
 
 An unhappy witness of Jehovah says:

 October 13, 2012 at 7:28 am
 
I have been raised in the truth [49 yrs old] and I was a faithful ‘Happy Witness of Jehovah also, for 35+ years until 2002 when I was chemically poisoned at the dry-cleaners I worked in and damaged the lining of my lungs. Because I now have severe chemical sensitivities and asthma [My throat & lungs close up during an attack]. I was now no longer able to walk into a Kingdom Hall, Assembly Hall, or go door-to-door without a severe attack. The elders of my congregation AND my own family members who were JW’s said I would be considered inactive and was told that if I couldn’t go to meetings or out in service that I would die at armeggeddon. I wrote the Governing Body at NY a letter and was told that there is nothing we can do, just do your best that you can. So now I get the phone tie-in from my local congregation. I can get my magazines thru the Society’s website. KM’s are a hit-and miss situation unless I stop at my bookstudy coordinator’s house and pick them up myself… But I get very limited contact with my brothers and sisters because of the stigma attached to a publisher who cannot go out in service or meetings. It’s been VERY diffcult emotionally because I know what the literature says about showing love for our brothers and sisters but I can see how my family & I have been treated for the past 10 yrs. So I know that most of the ‘Happy witnesses’ out there that would never say ANYTHING negative about the organization have NEVER had their faith tested to such extremes. So there may be some negative comments that sound like ‘apostasy’ but truth is truth!
Reply
 
 
 sharah says:

 October 14, 2012 at 7:53 am
 
In the time of ancient Israel the measure of keeping the nation clean of fornicators,adulterer of criminals,etc,etc. Under the Law, a wrongdoer deserving capital punishment usually was pelted to death with stones. (Le 20:2) This was to ‘clear out what was bad from their midst.’ All Israel would hear of the punishment, and fear of such wrongdoing would be instilled in their hearts. (De 13:5, 10, 11; 22:22-24) In stoning an evildoer, they showed that they were zealous for true worship, anxious to see that no reproach came upon God’s name, and desirous of maintaining a clean congregation.
 Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, AT LEAST TWO WITNESSES had to give harmonious testimony against him, and thereafter they cast the first stones. (Le 24:14; De 17:6, 7) The prospect of being the executioner made a person think searchingly in giving evidence and doubtless was a deterrent to false testimony, which, if discovered, would cost the lying witness his own life.—De 19:18-20.
Reply
 
 
 Mandalay says:

 October 14, 2012 at 3:44 pm
 
Unhappy witness. Unfortunately, your situation is no big surprise to me.There was an wheel-chair bound sister who had moved into a house less than 1/2 mile from our Kingdom Hall. Her husband was not a JW but would bring her to the meetings in a van. Our elders basically told her to scram, that she lived in territory assigned to another Kingdom Hall about 5 miles away and she needed to go there. She was devastated emotionally and cried. Imagine having to tell her unbelieving husband about the unwelcome the congregation gave her. There is not enough space here to get into specific quotes, but this kind of insensitivity is coming directly from content in the WT publications, as the publications are often held in higher esteem than the God’s Word itself. Keep up what you’re doing and remember, our ministry takes many forms. If you can, write a few letters to friends and relatives expressing your faith and report your time. Persons in your situation can report fractions of time. And keep writing the WT.
Reply
 
 
 Sarah Puffer says:

 October 20, 2012 at 10:25 am
 
I relate to Candace Conti in a major way. I have a story of truth that would blow your mind. My real paternal grandmother was a Witness, when my grandfather died she and my Aunt and Uncles moved in with our family. They were all grown and able to care for themselves. My grandmother was very active in the Organization (which they like to call themselves) until her death. She sat and did nothing while her son raped and tortured my two oldest sisters. This went on for so long that my sister finally got pregnant by my uncle and left. This started when my sisters were 10 or 11 years old. My grandmother, father and all of my aunts and uncles knew what was going on in our house, but no one cared. My grandmother and father moved us to Vidor, Tx. when I was 5 years old. Little did I know that my father had communications on paper showing that we girls were for SALE. Yes, for sale pictures were taken, so that people could see what they were bidding on. The bites came, but they were for every child but me. I was settled on and adoption came, along with depression. No one ever sat down and told me that I had a new mother and father. The new mother had a daughter by a previous marriage who was 13 and hated me. She told me to never touch her, and so I caught on real fast. My parents had left the house one day and two men came to our house and picked me up screaming and kicking all the way out to the car. I was put in the car and told to shut up. The neighbor remembered it 30 years later. He said it haunted him like a ghost. So I spent months on a swing in the front yard, waiting for my real mother and father to come and get me. My new father didn’t take long at all to start straightening me up. I would have to do stupid things like walk in high heels along the fence line all day so that (as he said) I could learn to walk straight. I was given a bible and assigned scriptures at the age of six so that I could learn to read (with no help) If I couldn’t do it, I got a horrible switching when he got home. When I started first grade I could read and write. Self taught, along with a lot of whippings. By the time I was 8 I wanted any other woman to be my mother, except the one I had. Little did I know that the arguments between the husband and wife stemmed from resentment that she had built up over him molesting her daughter. I learned this years later. Over the course of 13 years, I was mentally, physically and sexually abused. When I was 19 I left. I have suffered from a lot of abuse in my life because when you are raised with it, it is very hard to teach yourself how to change it. The mental damage was never corrected. I have been under the care of a psychiatrist for many years and I take medication. My nerves are so bad that even though I was a secretary for years, it is very hard for me to type and I have to correct a lot. I am 58 years old and I can hardly function. I cry all the time. Someone told me that I should try to see the happy side of life and my reply was:”I don’t know how to be happy, I was never taught happy. My Dr. informed me last week that, I was going to die because I take the largest dose of medication that my body can stand. I was molested by my new father from the ages of 10 to 12. I told his wife, she called the other elders in the Congregation (YES, he was an elder) and he was forgiven because he was repentant. He admitted doing it and he was forgiven. When I left home, they moved, after they told everyone that they had kicked me out because I was in love with him and I wanted him to divorce her and marry him. This was done to destroy my credibility, so that if I ever told anyone what went on in our house, I would not be believed. I was allowed one friend who was 10 years older than me and she was told that I lied a lot. After each visit with her my mother would ask her what we talked about and if I said anything out of line? I lost everyone I had ever known growing up when I chose to leave Jehovah’s Witnesses. When they moved they told everyone in their new congregation that they had no children. 35 years later when I come walking in to bury the man, people actually told me that they did not know that these people had any children. One woman said, they raised us children, and I want you to know that you were a very lucky child to have them as your parents. I was dumb-founded. Lost for words, I remained quiet. Another woman hugged me and thanked me for taking care of the funeral arrangements financially, because they could not afford to take care of it. Again I had no reply. Who thanks a child in their 50’s for taking care of their parents burial? Everything in the will was left to The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Brooklyn NY. I will look at the settlement for Candace as a success in the settlement of my parents estate. My daughter found my real family in 2010. It has proven to be very unsettling for me. I can honestly say that I LOVE unconditionally, my children and grandchildren, and God. If anyone ever lays a hand on them they will be answering to God personally. Like the saying goes: “Hell hath no wrath like a woman who has been scorned.” Or as I say: ” Life stinks and then we die.” Where is the justice?
Reply
 
 
 Phil says:

 October 21, 2012 at 1:15 pm
 
God Bless you Sir. I will pray for you. I hope your family form the Kingdom Hall realise they have a duty of care towards you. Draw close to Our Saviour he is right there near to you. Ask and you will receive.
 love your Brother in Christ
Phillip
Reply
 
 
 Graham Central says:

 October 21, 2012 at 7:51 pm
 
I stand with you in spirit, Cedars. One may leave a legitimate religion and not fear losing one’s family connections. When one leaves a cult, that cult does everything in its power to ruin the one leaving, even seperating one from one’s family. Having been raised as a JW, this much I have learned: Being raised in a cult is like being raised in a snake pit. In my opinion, the Watchtower Society has become a spiritual police state. I have learned that people only pay attention to what they discover for themselves. Nothing that I might do or say will change the outcome of things.
Reply
 
 
 KtotheRAD (Konrad) says:

 October 25, 2012 at 12:28 am
 
The Society itself says, “The Truth can never be Apostasy” but since when do they care much what they themselves write? And there are No Excuses or Allowances for Disabilities in that organization as you found out the hard way! If they can’t see it? It ain’t there!
Reply
 
 
 MATIN SARFAS says:

 November 17, 2012 at 4:24 am
 
Let hope the wt is on it way out over Candace
 Con> hope her lots money she is wins over wt let as now .martin I came out wt 2002
Reply
 
 
 Roger says:

 November 18, 2012 at 7:36 am
 
It really is a shame. I have been serving for some 35+ years, (I no longer associate)which included being an Elder and Congregation Secretary,and many other positions, as you would get these because of who you are, and have met some really decent and committed Christians in the organisation. And yet I found very little love among them. They seemed to be almost scared of the People around them in particular the Elders. And the various Cliques and innuendos, as well as the gossips that keep apart and destroy the very thing that should unite. “You will know them because there is Love among them”…
Well I found very little, to the point that due to my wife who was not a witness, I had not one call ever to my House in that time, other then to question certain actions that I took based on scripture, such as regularly “calling on the flock”.
What really upset me was the way that the governing Body demanded all sorts of behavior, while the Bible clearly said that Jehovah looks favorably on those contributions given freely of ones own accord. These would be acceptable in Gods sight.
 And yet it was amazing the amount of “you have to do…
The other point I would like to share is the one of dates.
 Now that I think about it, this format is possibly incorrect/insufficient, as I would need much more space, as there are so many inconsistencies which would show just how far they are removed from reality.
with christian Love
 Roger
Reply
 
 
 Anonymous says:

 November 18, 2012 at 7:45 am
 

An unhappy witness of Jehovah
 I have been raised in the truth [49 yrs old] and I was a faithful ‘Happy Witness of Jehovah also, for 35+ years until 2002 when I was chemically poisoned at the dry-cleaners I worked in and damaged the lining of my lungs. Because I now have severe chemical sensitivities and asthma [My throat & lungs close up during an attack]. I was now no longer able to walk into a Kingdom Hall, Assembly Hall, or go door-to-door without a severe attack. The elders of my congregation AND my own family members who were JW’s said I would be considered inactive and was told that if I couldn’t go to meetings or out in service that I would die at armeggeddon. I wrote the Governing Body at NY a letter and was told that there is nothing we can do, just do your best that you can. So now I get the phone tie-in from my local congregation. I can get my magazines thru the Society’s website. KM’s are a hit-and miss situation unless I stop at my bookstudy coordinator’s house and pick them up myself… But I get very limited contact with my brothers and sisters because of the stigma attached to a publisher who cannot go out in service or meetings. It’s been VERY diffcult emotionally because I know what the literature says about showing love for our brothers and sisters but I can see how my family & I have been treated for the past 10 yrs. So I know that most of the ‘Happy witnesses’ out there that would never say ANYTHING negative about the organization have NEVER had their faith tested to such extremes. So there may be some negative comments that sound like ‘apostasy’ but truth is truth!
Reply
 
 
 John Wolf says:

 November 18, 2012 at 8:08 am
 
Isn’t it wonderful the way truth will infiltrate even the most close minded and blind followers who really want to know truth.The Holy Spirit is in the world searching for those who will come to the True Light of the world,Jesus Christ.Without Him,all walk in darkness.He is worthy of our praise as witnesses of the true God.I do my best to follow the teachings of the Bible,especially where it instructs me on who to worship.For example: NWT of the Christian Greek Scriptures,1950 edition @ Hebrews 1:6,”But when he again brings his firstborn into the inhabited earth,he says:”And let all God’s angels worship him”.I thank God that he has allowed such a wonderfully accurate and perfect translation to be manufactured,aren’t you? I mean,after all,if it’s O.K. for the angels to worship Jesus,then we should be able too also,right?
 I was also struggling with the idea of the Holy Spirit being an impersonal “Active Force” rather than Him having the attributes of a person when I stumbled onto II Cor.3:17 in the NWT,where it plainly says,”Now Jehovah is the (Holy) Spirit”.I no longer struggle understanding that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person,He is God Almighty,because according to this verse,He is Jehovah! Praise His wonderful name! I certainly do not understand though how this verse could be referring to any other Spirit as Jehovah,Because Jehovah is Holy isn’t He? And if Jehovah is Spirit as Jesus said He was in John 4:24,what other Spirit could Jesus be referring to than the Holy Spirit? If Jehovah is Holy,and He is Spirit,then logically thinking,He must be the Holy Spirit,right? Of course,that the same conclusion I came to! I’m so glad there are others who see that the Watchtower has been in error about so many different things.It’s truly refreshing that there are others who have decided to think on their own when it comes to some of the Junk that the GB dishes out.Keep up the good fight of faith and continue to expose error for what it is!……….thank you,John.
Reply
 
 
 Apóstolo TDS says:

 November 19, 2012 at 5:04 pm
 
Um irmão anônimo, uma Testemunha de Jeová/TDS, indicou-me seu site hoje. vim ver e lê-lo. Adicionei-o aos meus favoritos e, de tempos em tempos, virei aqui ver o andamento do trabalho cristão do irmão.
Força e que o “espírito dos Deuses santos” continue a iluminar o irmão. – Daniel 4:8, 18.
amor cristão desde São Paulo/Brasil.
Apóstolo Testemunha dos Deuses Santos
Reply
 
 
 Stormy says:

 November 19, 2012 at 9:27 pm
 
I feel so bad for you. But I’m surprised it has taken this long for you to see how JW’s REALLY are. It’s all so fake and phony. Once you’re in, then you’re not the shiny new toy anymore and if you don’t find a click, well, you’re alone, even if you’re surrounded by 300 JW’s. Time to get out dude! Really, run for your life…or walk really slow, but just get out! Wish you the best from Cali USA
Reply
 
 
 William E Enoch Sr says:

 November 30, 2012 at 6:12 pm
 
Cedars, I don’t believe Happy Jehovah’s Witness can show anything false in what you state on this website. You have presented the ultimate “conversation stopper”. Happy Jehovah’s Witness undoubtedly has not and probably will never be taught by the GB how to deal with facts when presented in the field service.
Reply
 
 
 Random says:

 December 29, 2012 at 1:40 am
 
Hey. I would like to let you know that people like you dont make it any better for people like jw’s. They already have enougfh trouble as it is going out and getting yelled at, constantly offended by opposers and even picked on by people who were “friends”up until the moment they corner them with abusive talk about their own religion to their faces… Religion isnt about people who praise hallelujah to a god they dont even know let alone even read or know the bible… It is about being kind, reading and knowing the bible so well, you practically know most common verses, being friendly to all (including those who oppose you), and believeing and having faith in your religion. And from my view point thats exactly what Jw’s do, compared to most other people who claim to be apart of a religion, when all their money is just going into the so called “priests” etc and their lives and dedication to churches is toward some really fake religions… Not saying there is a right or wrong religion here of course. Just saying- religion is a delicate matter. And if Jw’s are a religion (which they are not a cult. They truly are a religion), they should not be abused by so many and constantly be singled out as a “cult” or a “sect”. They are indeed more a religion than any other ive seen… I guess thats up to you to make sure you guys make the right decision. And im guessing this website was set up because some jw offended you or was too over the top or broke your heart or even you may have been a jw once… But truly… If you think making a website picking on other people and their beliefs makes you any better a person… I would reconsider… And i hope you actually read this and think long and hard… This isnt a threat… Its a conversation from one ordinary person to another…
Thankyou sincerely,
 Random. (i would be obliged to tell you my name but i dont want any stalkers or anything following me cause frankly, thats an invasion of privacy).
:)
Reply
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 31, 2013 at 8:11 am
 
‘Picking on other religions’ eh Random? WHat do JWs do except declare that all other self declared CHristians are ensnared by the Devil and deserve an imminent divine murder at Armageddon? Most people I know who come across JWs only as door knockers, actually admire their earnest devotion. It is we ex JWs, who have experienced the horrors of your cult from the inside, that know the truth about JW TRUTH. Your posts, Random, are, of course, valuable in the global campaign to destroy the WBTS. Any curious reader will see the dreadful state of mind of one whose mind and life are totally dominated by JW indoctrination. Keep up the good work Random. In our separate ways we will help to rid the world of this JW scourge!
Reply
 
 
 
 James yehat says:

 January 5, 2013 at 12:25 pm
 
I came across this site a few weeks back and though about just ignoring it as the founder and sponsor seem to at least express things which are similar to other anti- Jehovah`s witness sites – but decided on my own initiative to express a few concerns.
 1 – I do question whether the owner of this site is in fact one of us?? due to the nature and manner of the disagreement expressed on this site.
 2 – The organisation is unique in that it is the only one that does ever thing that is only based on the bible – so it is not influenced my man or preference`s or personal choices based on back ground or culture for example; it only goes be the bible and the principles in the bible.
 3 – the governing body in making its final decision on matters do delegate and intrust a lot of responsibilities to branch committee`s – all the way down to the appointed elders in the congregation – that means that when a decision is made, lets say in the case for a miner to be diss fellowship; there are a few things straight away – depending on the age of the child its parents are informed and a discussion takes please with the judicial committee as to how best help that child to make its way back – please note these suggestions are done in consultation with the parents – in addition there are not strict guidance – a resent update on the process that elders much follow before reaching that stage if they decide to do so – in addition the child or teenage has the opportunity to appeal against the there decision that the elders locally make. The appeal committee makes an independent decision based on the truth in the case – & if they cannot make a decision then the branch in that country look into the case and a decision is then made – if at that stage the decision is to go for the serious discipline to diss-fellowship then a review on that decision much be done on a yearly based by the original judicial committee, if not sooner- the spirit and attitude is to all way help the erring one to come to there senses and yes this is the over riding point to show and give clear evidence that he / she is repentant & secondly to maintain cleanness in the congregation –
4 – if that child / teenager is at home what this all happens then the parents are with out question still responsible for the physical care of this child – it is so by the law of any land and it is also fully expected by the organisation – if for some reason the teenager decided to go leave by mutual consent be all concerned then that is not done by the influence or decision by the organisation & its governing body –
so what can I say in conclusion on this matter? its this – we must all be loyal to Jehovah & his organization at all times as Jehovah`s dedicated witnesses – remember Jehovah is over all in charge and he as delegated authority to his son Jesus Christ who in turn has the Elders in his right hand of authority who are refereed to has stars. must full trust and wait on him knowing that any errors and wrongs will be set straight by our loving and caring father Jehovah who does all things for the sake of his people – I suggest that this site just like many others will in time become a irrelevance, and gods people will only go from strength to strength.
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 Cedars says:

 January 5, 2013 at 12:31 pm
 
Thanks James for your honest if rather programmed reaction to our site.
Your prediction is: “I suggest that this site just like many others will in time become a irrelevance”
I have about as much confidence in that prophecy as I have in this one…
“[Jehovah’s Witnesses] believe that… some who saw the events of 1914 will also see the complete destruction of the present wicked world” – Reasoning book, page 200.
Cedars
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 Ray says:

 January 20, 2013 at 2:11 pm
 
The Aborigines (and I love them for it) have been around over 80000 years: before a bunch of goat herders in a Middle Eastern GPS unavailable to them decided the world of humans must sit up and take note. It was not surprising therefore that it took until about 3 centuries ago for them to even hear about this. Maybe this had something to do with Jewish circumcision? Shrug! You see the Aborigines split the penis from behind the tip right down to the groin area and let it heal into some broccoli looking expression of genitalia that enabled them to use reeds to control conception. Even if the Jews had ventured there, such comparable macho practices would hardly stack up against these raw hard natives – best leave these alone and stick to our less conspicuous “Snick for Yaweh.”
You can, no doubt see the comparative appeal right there?
So why then, I ask you all, are we so vehemently credulous to fall for a smalltime goat herders philosophy, from a time before refrigerators and anaesthetics, as if it applied to the whole world and every human therein from before and beyond space time as we know it? How can we grant plausibility to an idea that an all powerful mind, for reasons undescribed and left to our suspicions, decided to give these snippets of rulings and regulations to certain humans in certain places in the hope that somehow others , down the millennia, would be equal in falling for its preposterous claims to have rights over all of us?
And why should we tolerate such a manifestly intolerant preposition upon all humanity???
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 February 3, 2013 at 12:43 pm
 
Books, Videos, Facebook pages, blogs and websites exposing the house of lies and horrors that is the WBTS are proliferating; ditto the number of impending court cases connected with JW pedophile protection. The WBTS, meanwhile (which you, James Yehat, with pathetic credulity describe as ‘God’s Organisation’) has stalled in its expansion and is likely soon to diminish. The internet, with its interactive, as opposed to top down, communication, is the enemy of dictatorships everywhere, and the JW bosses are incapable of handling it. They have labelled ‘apostates’ as mentally diseased. Having failed to steer their followers away from the internet and possible infection with heresy (i.e real facts about the JW cult), they are now making efforts to engage with the internet via an improved website. This will be ineffectual; no feedback will be admitted which does other than glorify the outfit that produces it. I suggest, James Yehat, you prepare yourself for the implosion of your poisonous cult, and for re – engagement with the world that you have pretended you are no part of. The ugly little corner of the world that has always pretended it is no part of the world, i.e the JW org. will, we hope, soon be merely a grubby little footnote in the history of Christendom.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 10, 2013 at 1:28 pm
 
James Yehat, and other believing JWs or sympathisers; have you ever stopped to consider why there are so many anti JW websites and Facebook pages? This does not happen with other sects, denominations or even with every cult. I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, and it was, by far, the worst aspect of my childhood. I actually believed JW TRUTH, as spouted by the Elders at my UK Kingdom Hall in the 1950s. Jehovah, back then according to the JWs, was set to murder the greater part of the human race before the end of the 20th century; and why? because the greater part of the human race did not attend the Kingdom Hall and spend their spare time and money on buying and distributing WBTS lit. door to door.
Can any of you believing JWs tell me what the WBTS has achieved beyond the following:
1. Inducing nightmares about a mythical Armageddon.
2. Making an unevidenced claim that its bosses, the Gov. Bod., are the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24.
3.Causing the deaths of thousands through their ever changing blood transfusion edicts.
4. Causing the splitting of families through their shunning directives.
5. Protecting paedophiles through their 2 witness rule.
6. Making a series of duff prophecies about the advent of Armageddon. (1925, 1941, 1975 and before the death of the 1914 generation are but a selection)
7. Furnishing Judge Rutherford with a luxury mansion (Beth Sarim) and a brace of Cadillacs.
8. Covering up the Masonic origins of the cult when Russell founded his Bible students.
9. Depriving millions of a decent education by declaring any skills beyond the ability to read JW lit., and spout JW doctrine door to door, to be ‘worldly’.
10. Amassing a vast property portfolio in Brooklyn and around the world.
I would be interested to hear of any other achievements, but having read the history of the cult by many authors (including the WBTS ‘Proclaimers’ book) I have never come across any others.
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 ceecee says:

 January 17, 2013 at 8:05 am
 
if you were in a congregation where I live this would not happen. You could learn sign language and participate more fully.
 Devon
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 Peter says:

 January 18, 2013 at 10:49 am
 
to:Rowland Nelken,
☻
I have been a witness all my life
 I want to serve God
 the correct way.
The only thing that JW’S have gotten wrong are DATES-☺
They are organized to preach the Good News
 i have learned that
 God is not a trinity
 God does not torment people for ever
 God has a name just like everyone else JEHOVAH
 The soul is not immortal
 JW’S don’t fight wars
The dates set are not PROPHECY FROM THE GOV BOD.
 JW’S believe that after the bible was written there is no need for prophecy
Those are the Pentecostals that hear words of knowledge and alike, but since they don’t publish a mag 42 million per mag, no one knows just the people in the church.
So when someone speaks of JW AND PROPHETIC DATES, not true.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 18, 2013 at 1:55 pm
 
So, Peter,, if Armageddon dates are the only thing that JWs have got wrong, then the JWs must be right about the following:
1. Armageddon can be calculated by taking measurements from the Great Pyramid.
2. The Crucifix is an appropriate Christian symbol.
3. The Crucifix is not a Christian symbol.
4. Jehovah has no opinion on blood transfusions.
5. Jehovah forbids blood transfusions.
6. Jehovah is OK with blood transfusions so long as the blood is delivered in fractions.
7. Jehovah approves of celebrating Christmas on 25 December.
8.Jehovah forbids celebrating Christmas on 25 December.
9. True Christians will be raptured at Armageddon.
10 True Christians will not be raptured at Armageddon.
11. Membership of the anointed is restricted to JWs baptised before 1914.
12. Membership of the anointed is restricted to JWs baptised before 1935.
13. There is no restriction, datewise, on membership of the annointed.
No doubt JWs can claim to have been right about many more things than the 13 foregoing. I wonder why not everybody accepts that JWs have THE TRUTH?
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 Ray says:

 January 20, 2013 at 1:51 pm
 
There is nothing malicious or weak about your life situation respecting any cosmic mind. No force or power has duty upon you to exert more than you happily are able to desire to do.
 I used to be a Jehovah’s Witness! The concept of apostasy is: an abuse upon the human mind: a degenerate subversion of thinking per se , and an exploitation of the individual to free think their own life course ( as many, throughout the history of humanity, have happily done for a lifetime; unhindered by any mention of scripture or deferral to some other persons claim to know of a cosmic mind looking on.)
Credulity is the enemy of happiness and the slayer of reason. It is a poison to the soul.
It’s why I’m aniti theist, not just atheist. And I state this, not against humans per se, but against ALL the philosophies that are permitted access to, and usually to poison beyond reform, the amygdala of unsuspecting humans in every generation.
Yes, I utterly detest that which dresses faith as a virtue when in truth it is the most carnal of all desires to have inflicted upon any virgin mind!
Best wishes to you, long sufferer of life on Earth!
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 Emma says:

 January 21, 2013 at 12:18 am
 
Are you CURRENTLY a Witness Cedars? Answer these questions for me: What is so BAD about the organization and what it teaches? what would you do differently? It really saddens me that God practically BEGS humans to obey his commandments and live by his standards and finally, this organization does just that and of COURSE, some one (in this case Cesars) finds fault in it and tries to nit pick and find imaginary grievances…. smh @ Cesar. Makes me wonder what has happened to make you feel this way? Were you counselled for misconduct? Did you not get a position that you felt entitled to? What happened? So OK. Lets say you succeed (which is HIGHLY unlikely) in bringing the Watchtower DOWN…. Then what? You will start a religious named the Cedarslites? What’s next? Just remember brother “Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”
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 Cedars says:

 January 21, 2013 at 1:03 am
 
“Are you CURRENTLY a Witness Cedars?” Yes, I am neither disfellowshipped nor disassociated – I am merely inactive.
“What is so BAD about the organization and what it teaches?” In short, it is a cult. A cult is any organization, religious or otherwise, where the teachings or instructions are potentially damaging to those who join. In the case of JWs, you have shunning of disfellowshipped family members (unscripturally), protection of pedophiles (failure to observe their crime if there is no witness), and encouragement to decline medical treatment with blood (even though the bible has nothing to say about blood transfusions). You also have 8 men leading the organization claiming to be guided by God with no objective evidence to support this claim. If all of that doesn’t raise any “warning flags” with you, go right ahead and get baptized.
“what would you do differently?” I would disband the organization.
“Makes me wonder what has happened to make you feel this way? Were you counselled for misconduct?” I woke up, as simple as that. I decided that the reasons why this COULDN’T be God’s organization were simply too many to ignore, and I decided there was therefore nothing stopping me from disobeying the Society’s instructions by doing objective research. I read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz, and it blew me away – the fact that this is just a human organization after all. I would recommend you read that book too. Here is the link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/20333975/Crisis-of-Conscience-2004-Unencrypted
“Did you not get a position that you felt entitled to? What happened?” Title or position had nothing to do with it. I was once an elder but stood down. Prior to my “awakening” it was made very clear to me that I could be an elder again if I put forth the slightest effort. I decided that I didn’t WANT to be an elder if I could see so many things wrong with the organization from the top down.
“You will start a religious named the Cedarslites? What’s next?” I have no interest in acquiring followers or starting any religion. I am only interested in helping people out of a damaging cult. If you really want to know my religious viewpoint, please read my article: http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/is-jwsurvey-org-an-apostate-website
I hope that answers your questions.
Cedars
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 alun williams says:

 April 25, 2013 at 5:07 am
 
well said
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 Peter says:

 January 21, 2013 at 8:37 am
 

Rowland Nelken
 So, Peter,, if Armageddon dates are the only thing that JWs have got wrong, then the JWs must be right about the following:
 1. Armageddon can be calculated by taking measurements from the Great Pyramid.
 2. The Crucifix is an appropriate Christian symbol.
 3. The Crucifix is not a Christian symbol.
 4. Jehovah has no opinion on blood transfusions.
 5. Jehovah forbids blood transfusions.
 6. Jehovah is OK with blood transfusions so long as the blood is delivered in fractions.
 7. Jehovah approves of celebrating Christmas on 25 December.
 8.Jehovah forbids celebrating Christmas on 25 December.
 9. True Christians will be raptured at Armageddon.
 10 True Christians will not be raptured at Armageddon.
 11. Membership of the anointed is restricted to JWs baptised before 1914.
 12. Membership of the anointed is restricted to JWs baptised before 1935.
 13. There is no restriction, datewise, on membership of the annointed.
 No doubt JWs can claim to have been right about many more things than the 13 foregoing. I wonder why not everybody accepts that JWs have THE TRUTH?
Rowland,
The pyramid? that was how long ago?
 dis JW teach about a pyramid?
do the research
Science also thought many things that have changed
 Do you say the same about science, the number of planets changed, are we going to dismiss science because it changes according to what it learns?
The mayoralty of what you have mentioned are dates,
 just like i said.
¿What have JW gotten wright?
 ¿any takers on that SUBJECT?
I wont list them here because i will be told i am issuing WT PROPAGANDA.
Reply
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 31, 2013 at 8:02 am
 
No Peter. You won’t list what JWs have got right because there is nothing to list. Unlike your attitude to me, I do not think you deserve an Armageddon death penalty for differing in your views and behaviour from me. You, however, have been drilled by your Brooklyn bosses to believe that I face an imminent and deserved divine murder for my failure to be unpaid mag. distributor for a global publishing and property corporation. I hope that one day you will escape the clutches of the cruel cult that dominates your existence. It may well be that the WBTS will face an avalanche of court cases in the coming years for its criminal protection of pedophiles in its ranks. It hides, as you may know, behind the Deuteronomy based 2 witness rule, in defiance of the law in every land where it operates. COurt cases will mean fines, enormous fines that your mag. purchases and unpaid labour, Peter, will not be able to meet. When property is sold, including, maybe, your own Kingdom Hall, what will you do? If you can’t generate cash for the WBTS, the WBTS will discard you. The ENd is nigh, Peter, for your misery making cult. I suggest you prepare yourself.
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 Ray Owen says:

 January 21, 2013 at 10:51 am
 
Apostasy is a misnomer! How can one know this? From the basic assertion that ones belief is unquestionable – else apostasy – amidst thousands of beliefs humans have posited such a claim about down the ages.
Hence the very concept of apostasy is clandestine tribalism snook in to appear more sophisticated as if some cosmic authority sanctioned this as claimed by who else but, you guessed it, long dead humans.
The fact that many virgin births and 12 disciples leaders, resurrection after 3 days… plus a raft of other similarities, predated Yeshua (Jesus) by thousands of years hardly disguises the fact that ALL of these were still only limited to a small fraction of the geographical Earth as we now know it. What it strikingly illustrates is the massive credulity any human mind is all too easily polluted by when limited to age old myth and fiction as if universal truth. The amygdala makes too soon an emotive bonding therein which becomes increasingly painful to contemplate the cessation of!
Hence “faith” : the misapplication of deep emotional bondings to fictional information supplied as universal knowledge.
In light of the above, apostasy becomes the liberation and disclaimer of the fiction by which one was initially deceived and deluded (emotionally hijacked).
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 lost in space says:

 January 29, 2013 at 8:48 pm
 
I got baptise at 12…back in 1972. I stop going to the meetings because I did not see anything wroung with wearing a beard ,as long as it was neat and trim and clean. I was told by my brother the elder , that was not right to do. I needed to shave or suffer . because to properly represent Jehovah you must be clean shaved, or look like a worldly person. And not be look at as a productive wittness. Are you kidding me! I told him if Jehovah wanted me to shave ,why allow me to grow facial hair to begin with. Or any man . I dont think any man has that right to choose for you, even though some work places makes that policy for various reasons. Not sure why people thinks a clean face is honest and noble. I still have a problem with that. Along with beliving 1975 was dooms day. I elected to take my education for granted, since there was no need for it. After all thats what worldly people cared about not Jehovahs people. We got our education at the meetings, what really counts in life. I paid for that dearly to this day. I even recived several scolarships that my Mother turn down,cause we at that time was told not to go to college..to worldly and not needed,cause the new order was near. PLease!!! 1975 came and went,and so did I. There was also a relative of mine that was rape at the age of 12 by her stepfather .He was a ms . She got pregnant ,but was to young to carry the child. The elders never reported it, but her mother did devorce him. And he was disfellowship but reistated and remarried in the “truth” as its put. Never did a day in jail. Also shortly after that another brother in the same hall molested four girls ,ages13-15. when one of the girls told on him, He left town about 50 miles away with his wife, yes she stayed with him. he did the same thing in the new hall he went to with another lil girl. Not a day in jail, no prosecution even after repeating the samr crime. Today hes still giving public talks on Sundays. His wife still with him. He was never able to look me in the eyes after I found out. Nor did i forgive him. I wanted the family to prosecute him, and send him to jail. Of course they look at me as worldly, and that was not going to happen. the second time he got caught did not matter to them or the child he molested. WOW! And i call that my family. That family member is 40 now and still have nightmares, and no closure. Im 53 and now trying to find a true religion…There’s not any. So i depend of the bible and what it ask of me as a person to do to have favor with my creator and savior. I did go back to the hall I was raised in At 51. They treated me as if they hated that my life was good and my house was paid for…no probems living a worldly life, nice car, my own fitness club. Most of all they still was saying that same line….dont worry about having a good life here ..wait for the new order. I did confess my sins to the elders and was made an active member along with my kids joining the school for a year….but i made a mistake by reporting an elder that was selling predatory loans to the brothers, making up to 14000.00 dollars on prime lending per house as a brooker. All those who who went for the scam cause they had bad credit lost thier homes within 5 years. the elder was the presiding overseer. when they found out i was causeing a problem, they reopened my comfession case from a yeay ago ,stateing they did not form a judicial committe..they only meet with me with two elders , not three…i told them you said i was forgiven by Jehovah so you said,so whats the point of doing this again. they did it anyway and put me on restriction again. for the same sin i was forgiven for a year ago.whats the point? All seven elders knew the first decession and agreed all I had to do was to have a study with an elder in the what dose the bible teach and another book to catch up with the new light. I never return after that meeting to the hall. they came by house and said they saw a big inprovement in me after 30 days. Dispite not seeing me at the hall. and lifted the restriction. But they say they are being lead by holy spirt….yea ,and so Im I. I never went back. An elder call me and ask my problem…i said in a nut shell < that you dont need new light to report a serious crime as rape…you must and let police decide what to do. And you cant change a disipline so one that has not brought reproch on jehovah people. i never claim to be a jw my whole adult life , but have to pay to the congregation for what? He did not even have the details of all the rapes that has occured because the world want to presucute the wittnesses because of who they are..I said really..I guess PenN State is also a vitim, withholding info..A lot of people paid for that who knew …. the GB along with there followers knew too.. so welcome to the real world….Religion is a snare.. and you must be yourguide to Jesus not as a group. no one is judge or can be by a man…so they need to back off and just deliver the message. They think there elite because a man told them, he was a what..a prophet with money and a dream,and able to change the bible text and make false claims to dictate fear in people. Follow a fool, and you will bcome one. our bible is not accurate and need s a proper update by a real greek scholar. Not Barber&Russell.
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 Amazed at the sheer ignorance says:

 January 30, 2013 at 2:21 am
 
What just amazes me is how people can pass judgement on others, make vast sweeping statements and make out that they know best. This isn’t just based on this page, but other pages I’ve read on this website. While you’re at it why not just say all black people are criminals, all asians are rapists and all white people molest their children. If someone has a faith, no matter what it is, allow them to do so. Just like people put their faith in clearly corrupt governments, some people look to a god or gods to help them through. I am not promoting cults or religions that encourage things are clearly legally, morally and ethically wrong. But do you not see the world that we live in? Are you completely blind to the atrocities that go around the world and even in your own town? Are you one of these people that because of Al-Qaeda now look at any Asian wearing a turban and label them as a terrorist, not even knowing what religion they belong to? No doubt many Witnesses have done wrong, perhaps they don’t even believe in Jehovah and want to make others think all Witnesses are like that. Is that not what Al-Qaeda have managed to achieve on a vast scale? There is still a huge amount of racism and prejudice in this world and it is sickening. It disgusts me, not because I am a Jehovah’s Witness, but because I am human. People seem to find nothing better than to highlight the negatives of everything. All the news is just propaganda; newspapers don’t sell when they write about happiness and success. Failure, murderers, extremists, death, devastation among other negative things sells. Things that scare people and about other people. This only leads to more prejudice and discrimination. People are so narrow minded that they believe whatever they read and whatever they hear.
Why not think for yourselves? Why do you take everything on face value? Why not question what is being told to you? Why not be different rather than follow the crowd? From what I know JWs are told to question everything and not blindly believe what they are told. So if after they question it and they want to believe in a god called Jehovah, leave them to it. There are clearly many of you who don’t question, don’t look at both sides and just believe in any hype. You get on the hate bandwagon and ride it all the way along. Yes we have freedom of speech, but why use it to hate others? You think JWs have been brainwashed? You make me laugh. Have a good look in the mirror and consider yourselves. You are brainwashed by governments, by news, by media, by advertisements, by your family, by your peers. Everyone has an opinion and they all want you to believe it. But it is your choice what you want to believe. Get some compassion, get some humanity and stop believing in everything you hear/read. Some people do wrong, a lot of people do wrong, but I’m sure that you would not wanted to tarred with the same brush as other people, so don’t do it others. You should think about improving your own life, bettering yourself, rather than being petty and focusing on the flaws of others. Trust me, you have a heck of lot of flaws that people could write a bible about.
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 Cedars says:

 January 30, 2013 at 11:14 am
 
Hello “Amazed”
Since we are speaking candidly, you should know that there are a number of people who are “amazed” at your outlook. In fact, there is an entire discussion thread about your comment on this link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/245433/1/Apostates-are-narrow-minded-victims-of-brainwashing-who-believe-everything-they-read Feel free to set up a forum account and get involved in answering people’s reactions to your statements on that website. I personally have no time to debate with you, not least because you don’t really seem interested in debate – only attack.
I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for deleting your comment and banning you from this website with such rapidity. On reflection, as others have reminded me, it is always better for people visiting this website to see for themselves how blinkered and accusatory Watchtower apologists can be. You provide a stunning example in this regard.
Thank you for contributing to this website, despite being told not to. I hope you wake up and smell the coffee at some point, but I won’t hold my breath.
Cedars
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 30, 2013 at 3:25 am
 
Several commentators on here have complained about the very idea of a website which criticizes, or even challenges, the beliefs and practices of Jehovah’s WItnesses. This is absurd. Jehovah’s Witnesses, by definition, believe that all of us outside their organisation, deserve an Armageddon death penalty for refusing to believe and act as they do. Jehovah’s WItnesses are the epitome of self righteous arrogance. Their bosses achievements, over the decades, have been uniformly destructive and negative, where they have not been criminal or even murderous. I refer to pedophile protection and the blood transfusion ban when I write of crimes. We who have known the organisation from within, have a moral duty to expose this foul cult, warn the curious who may be tempted to join it, and, ultimately, to bring about the cult’s destruction.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 30, 2013 at 3:53 am
 
No Peter- I did not mention dates. That a JW TRUTH is long ago does not alter the fact that, coming from a JW boss, it had to be accepted as God given TRUTH, or the doubter would face Armageddon destruction. What about the flip flops on blood, Christmas and the crucifix? The only reason that you, Peter, or anyone else can remain a Jehovah’s WItness is by burying your head in the sand and ignoring facts.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 30, 2013 at 1:15 pm
 
JWs presume that all who are not of their number deserve the death penalty. A cult which does nothing but slag off the rest of humanity and looks forward to the day when its mythical obscene Jehovah creation murders the greater part of humanity, deserves nothing but exposure. It invites a campaign for its destruction. Unlike JWs, who look forward to my murder, I do not wish a violent death on individual JWs. I simply wish them release from the control of a bunch of self righteous old farts in Brooklyn (The WBTS Gov. Bod.)who have captured their minds and lives.
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 Chris says:

 January 30, 2013 at 2:05 pm
 
It always amazes me that current JW’s can never accept the fact that anyone would leave the organization with their integrity intact. Whereas the opposite is true in many cases and this self-righteous attitude comes across as the height of arrogance. I feel sad for them as I did all my wasted years truly believing what I was doing was correct.
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 Ray Owen says:

 January 30, 2013 at 3:01 pm
 
I left decades before the cognitive dissonance relented and I finally stopped having sympathy and subservience to various residual forms of their intellectual and emotional garbage. I will not forget the ones who got me in who were several generations into this organisation , or the humungous lies they pedaled to me which, became apparent down the line. It became incredibly obvious many are in it and don’t believe it all, yet will back stab you at a word wrongly out of place that breaches their code of totalitarian passivity they insist everyone adheres to. I detest their doctrine, in full! I will not forgive those who misled me into it and knowingly exploited whatever they could to maintain their long line of effluent. This is the only nostalgia I have of them and theirs – a sewer with a lasting stench! Good riddance to your whole system and I state it plainly, you are a parasite on all good people everywhere, not least those you mislead into your ranks to masquerade your oppressive, repressive delusional as if representative of good people. This is your cunning – trick some good folks into line and they will do the rest of your dirty work. Scumovahs Witnesses is the residue you prevail upon the unsuspecting mind! You cannot fathom how detestable your thinking is to me. Humanity would do well to be free of it! To poison the free mind into your dross is anathema to the very existence of humanity!
Reply
 
 
 Strongisland34 says:

 January 30, 2013 at 3:06 pm
 
Emma;
 Where in the bible does it say that im supposed to follow after man or an organization??? God doesnt beg anyone to follow him…he stands at the door and knocks…and if you let him in than…no begging….Jesus Christ died on the cross for those that would believe….Jesus Christ is the WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE…no man or organization….Unfortunately the religion that you follow has brainwashed you into thinking that Jesus came back to the earth invisibly and picked Jehovah Witnesses, who werent even called that back when he supposedly came back. Its funny the Bible only speaks of two comings of Jesus Christ…the one that already happened when he was born of a virgin and the one that is to come…no invisibly but every man will see Him…Its time to wake up and crack open that Bible and start to see what is really being taught….You dont need a man or an organization to interpret the Bible for you….Remember Jesus left His Holy Spirit to be our Helper…not a man or an organization….The day of Pentecost is when The Holy Spirit was given to the apostles who believed….and that same gift is given to all that believe….I pray that your eyes will be opened..
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 Ray Owen says:

 January 30, 2013 at 5:08 pm
 
This might be good if in the last 200 years humans had not realised that Aborigines had been isolated from most other land areas for over 70 thousand years before even the Jews arrived with their written codes etc and even the Egyptians were not quite cutting the stone yet. So its amazing to think humans lived for tens of thousands of years without a hint of any Abrahamic ideas running planet Earth. China is another unknown in all kinds of ways. We – over here in the western regions – have still got this idea our heritage has ruled Earth since some beginning or other when in fact most of the Earth never heard of it for most of Earths history. We won’t get into fossil records yet and how many millions of years ago that went the way of earthquakes and volcanos – just like Darwin in the Galapagos that were a relatively recently formed series of islands out of the sea that then evolved their own unique features due isolation from other species.
I too was brought up having it drilled into my amygdala that love is to be put in ideas of old that I had no way of checking out. It took me the next several decades to rid myself of emotional bondage to those early tricks of mind to amygdala shenanigans.
The humans brain has ways of doing this for life – as humans used to do with the idea everything went around the Earth due the sun across the sky by day. We are too easily swayed into thinking we see how it is. Worse however is to come when we are too easily swayed into loving such ideas. The amygdala does not easily give way to reasons in the same way a young child is reluctant to let go of Santa. It al seemed so magical after all….
Anyhow, I come not to bring bad news, or to cause you pain, though the Santa years do leave a bitter taste in the senses of many children: so worse still for adults when we start to see how very impossible it is that the whole of humanity down the ages were ever even aware of what we think everyone ought to think truth – as in many religious ideas.
It leaves us in a cheated barren phase wondering what on Earth to think or worse still to feel is the point of our life. This is no fun lesson for it is a deception put on the very core of our emotions. Realising most humans who ever lived never even had such beliefs as we are having is indeed a great shock to bear and worse still to rebuild a new world view out of. It took me a painful few years to do this and worse still the feeling I could never go back and relive life in the sensible ways I am now able to think apply to all humankind. No need for the religious ideas of men from an age long gone!!!
There is a guiltless place where it’s up to us to treat each other well and no one is looking on to see we do so. It’s just up to those of us who see it as the best way to live and no need to make up stories about why. Also to oppose those low life who couldn’t care a sausage about who suffers and who doesn’t. That’s about where it’s at. A good a place as I ever got to. It makes complete sense and no guilt, obligation and fear of some unknown someone else can browbeat me, or anyone else, with.
Keep a firm hold on your own mind for many will seek to take it from you – religion et al.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 31, 2013 at 3:36 am
 
Science does not proclaim its findings as God given Truth. It is based on the principle that new evidence may overturn current assumptions. The WBTS is not. Its litany of flip flops are all introduced as absolute, Jehovah delivered, once and for all Truths, and doubters will be administered the Armageddon death penalty. The WBTS is a mental dictatorship or it is nothing. The internet, fortunately, makes life difficult for dictators of every stripe, and an internet search by any any doubting JW will soon reveal that JW TRUTH is an ever changing pack of lies based on the say so of a bunch of self appointed, self righteous old geezers in Brooklyn who make a totally unevidenced claim that they are ‘The Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as mentioned by Jesus in Matt. 24. On this outrageous claim the entire authority of the WBTS bosses is based. Peter; I have asked countless JWs for evidence to back up the ‘F and D Slave’ claim of the JW bosses. None has supplied any. The reason is simple; there is none. Do you have any?
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 Ray Owen says:

 January 31, 2013 at 6:16 am
 
What is amazing is how we have now got incredible ways to survey the skies and see how the Earth is but a minor planet going around a minor star to an extent both are undetectable on any picture of the universe. This is all good and interesting stuff! However the trouble with amygdala based information is that it resists all new findings and perspectives. For example; when we learn that the Bible itself is only a set of books that grew over many centuries in a relatively minor region of a fully inhabited globe – that carried on in totally different ways regardless – it begs the question as to what “belief” has ever been a universal “truth”. It takes not very long to see, in pure reason terms, that NEVER is the answer to this. Humans have been growing in knowledge and perspective over the millennia and as such cannot know any mind of any unknown suspect: their god!
What we do have is the residue of minds of people from far less educated and enlightened times still subduing our amygdala emotions (usually from very young) and so brainwashing our emotions with ideas we are supposed to preserve till death. Hence belief becomes not a truth per se but a perversion of brain function to be subservient to an early emotional deception. Like a bear in a cage, the longer this goes on the more the human loses all sense of alternative till their fright and flight senses defer to the cage of their pains and oppression – the only place they know and feel as familiar; the belief system they inherited or adopted.
The trouble then of course is that it is far trickier to make a new mind and emotional basis for life per se – even when the guilt obligation and fear of this imaginary god subsides. The space one is now in is quite daunting and new, uncertain and confusing. Such feelings are a cruelty on the escapee from indoctrination who have already suffered greatly the traumas of religious domination.
Learning how to learn and how to take control of ones own mind – fully – is no easy journey, but nevertheless a far greater integrity than that of the demands of our long dead ancestors and the messages they were dominated by back in their day absent all the information humans have since discovered and communicated to each other.
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About JW Survey

A message from the founder of JWsurvey.org…
It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.
The Governing Body has yet to express any interest in hearing the views of ordinary witnesses. Their mantra is: “We talk, you listen!”

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!
This website seeks to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that is conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.
The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking. Subsequent surveys promise to attract even more attention as our website steadily grows in popularity.
A website for all
This site has been created and made available online so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about the organization and its governance.
We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning that we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored this survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.
Who started this website?
I write under the name John Cedars. Until recently I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I left for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.
I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.
It is my belief that not all is well within the organization, and many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body are not formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.
An unmerciful practice
For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows: “But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man… remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor 5:11,12)
Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians about the disfellowshipping arrangement never called for family members to be torn apart

Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.
There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home. But why should it end there?
Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees: “Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:13, New World Translation)
Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age, are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.
The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.
The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said, “Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.”
These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.
Only human
It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that is truly observant of the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.
The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.
I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.
Warmest regards,
 
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276 Responses to About JW Survey

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 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 31, 2013 at 7:50 am
 
Great and informative post, Ray Owen. It sent me straight to Wikipedia and this new term ‘amygdala’. This deep retention of early years fears, a property, it appears, of this part of the brain, explains in part why it took me so long to purge my mind of the JW poison pumped in during my early years (c. 5 -14) at the Kingdom Hall. Those whose entire family are JWs and under pressure to not only get baptised, but to pioneer, must suffer far more from that cruel cult than I ever did. Sites like these provide JW victims not only with the opportunity of enlightenment about their selfish captors, the JW bosses, but also an insight into the tragic state of mind illustrated by the posts of JW true believers. They can only serve as a warning, either to steer clear of JWs, or, if already captured, to make for the Kingdom Hall exit.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 January 31, 2013 at 9:06 am
 
Strength to strength eh? JW growth has stalled, and with a whole queue of victims of JW pedophiles, protected by the JW org. queueing up in the courts worldwide, it is likely that the coming years will see extensive draining of JW coffers and thus, Kingdom Hall closures. Who says that JWs are God’s organisation? WHere is the evidence that the old farts in Brooklyn, the WBTS Gov. Bod. are the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ as mentioned in MAtt. 24? I have asked countless JWs to produce evidence of this connection, and none has been able to. There is no evidence. The JW Gov. Bod. are the ‘F and D Slave’ for no other reason than that they say they are. Without other ‘evidence’ their entire authority collapses. The ENd is Nigh, guys; the end of a corrupt and damaging Adventist splinter of a cult.
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 Ray Owen says:

 January 31, 2013 at 9:27 am
 
Thanks RN!
Yeah, its good to know part of our brains are extra responsive to emotionally generated memory input and that unlike say in a science class where each new learned fact supersedes previous ones with enthusiasm, in the case of emotionally generated inputs to the brain, new information is less welcome and most likely to be dismissed with hostility.
In a crude sense it can be seen how religious cults hyper focus on these contexts of brain information by generating holistic models ( Complete stories/ scripture about the whole world and the future and whom is running things unseen) that keep the brain going around in emotionally regenerated circles. Basically the information they conspire and cherry pick (as have all Biblical entrants down the ages) propagates servility to another’s mind/s, rather than relying on itself (ones own mind) to sieve out what it wants and does not want. Hence it then becomes a fear and guilt based function TO USE ONES OWN MIND whenever one takes in information that may be scientifically exciting but which ridicules religious precedents. For this reason the religious hierarchy seek their own preservation and power via such anti truths as bringing out the archenemy Satan as responsible for scientific findings or in fact any general good independent use of the human mind (they demand an emotive response/ defense to what really is a very interesting part of being human – the ability to discover and pass on new findings and information about us and our existence). SO religions and its network of thinking per se will only tolerate information it is able to include and adapt to as if it were all part of their “ideology” – otherwise Satan or apostacy.
Hold that idea for a moment!
The idea that if someone says something that insults a world view, no matter how true real and fact based.
We are now in the territory of the sincere individual being oppressed and rejected due having found out or learned something worth knowing simply due the other persons amygdala networked emotions being willing to die before it will accept such information and ostracising the other person for not submitting to their emotional construct. Personality disorders function this way; making constant and unquestionable emotional demands just because they feel it!
In a way it’s hardly any wonder we have so many personality disordered humans when we consider how prolific the religious mind is amongst us along with the plethora of emotionally generated power hungry delusions (scripture and their interpretation of what it demands of us) they propagate for the sakes of the hierarchy who enjoy a slave owners popularity or affluence or both – usually lifelong fringe benefits of some form or other and often multi generational for their offspring et al. If you find a long suffering hero or icon that contradicts this conclusion – it’s usually an exploitative tactic for someone who is in the ranks just below or thereabouts. Like the music industry – the one making most of the money isn’t necessarily the one standing center stage.
Like the maestro of public speaking, Christopher Hitchen’s would often confirm, skepticism is a far more honest state of the human mind – than credulity; where one takes in information unfiltered like a child in a candy store, so eagerly that the later pains of realisation further inflict the mind and emotions with a trauma that it cannot nearly so easily retreat into vomiting.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 February 3, 2013 at 8:03 am
 
Real believing JWs have yet to say anything meaningful in defence of their obscene little cult. Beyond protection of pedophiles, mastering the arts of cult mind control, amassing a vast property portfolio, making a false and utterly unevidenced claim about the JW bosses being the Faithful and Discreet Slave, causing unnecessary deaths through their murderous blood edicts, equipping their old boss, Rutherford with a mansion, Cadillacs and servants and steering millions away from a decent education, the WBTS has achieved nothing. Its record is a disgrace and an insult to humanity. And then there is its string of duff prophecies and countless unnecessary Armageddon nightmares and broken families through shunning. Well, JWs – what can you say in defence of your foul misery making little cult?
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 Ray Owen says:

 February 3, 2013 at 8:04 am
 
Your story is a fine collection of total confusion and mixed messages this religion screws around with your head about:
1) No law on Earth comes close to that of the JW org.
 2) Earth laws are to be kowtowed to under the umbrella of JW org advice.
 3) Never think for yourself – just try to work out an emotional and intellectual path through all the contradictory stuff you see going on – in other words act like a zombie and think like a zombie then get ready for some punishment when you get accused of being a zombie!
 4)Goto 1.
Now for your information: I can see how your head and heart has been screwed with and then you are told to go for another ride on the same carousel.
The alternative is peculiar: Leave all the people you got to know and deal with the impossible task of finding new friends who already usually have their lifelong regular associates ( can’t be done effectively); Kowtow to stuff you despise and curry favour when you can from the friend you half-have and take the joy if it exists amongst the few you know well – but remember you can never be yourself with them or relax the rules that stop you doing so else you will be back in the JW zombie courts with brown nosed elders et al ( They just love the brown; yummy to them); Do like I did and surf beliefs per se going through; pagan beliefs, eastern ideas; panentheism etc. You will find some have a great simple philosophy like do as you will but harm none, however in reality humans are full of bullshit and are full of double binds where they think they know what you think and so have the right to expect you to prove them wrong for what they suspect (kinda brown nose to their own ass kinda thinking); Then there is atheism where I got to with a hint of Robert Anton Wilsons “Who is the master who makes the grass green (because to other creatures eyes it isn’t green at all etc).” and I find there that you are on your own for the most part because often there are still loads of religious brown nose heads in your neighbourhood who think atheism is a satan incarnate (now I know who I am and what I think; which always was a pretty good mix for others since I rarely hate someone lest they keep rattling my bones on a regular habit they have – but you still can’t escape all these brown nosed regulars sticking their brains where the sun don’t shine and expecting you to do a few routines for them and their endless suspicions).
My bottom line? All the writings of man through history that pretend to know a superior mind is riding some clouds in a place nearby can go and do one; I reserve my rights to say that I know as well as anyone who ever existed whether this mind communicated to me alone and in my own solitude absent me having ever read or seen a word from another polluting my perspective on this: claiming it wants this or that from everyone as unquestionable. Hence ANY scripture is as useless to me as yesterdays weather and all those who keep on talking about it are in the same historic place. To my mind it is for humans to agree to their own humanitarian rules and to know this is what they are and these are things that might be changed from time to time and not under some putrid threat of everlasting torment which usually corrupts a human mind with very unhealthy sufferings and also often unhealthy reactions to said sufferings for all involved.
I enjoyed you sharing part of your journey with us – thank you so much! I was once in some similar difficulty. Where I am now is not necessarily a better place but it is a place more free from brown noses and my own brain collecting its share ipso facto ( I think the American Psychiatry Association refers to this as catching fleas as when a personality disordered individual gives you some of their behaviours and woes etc). I’m sure many in ALL religions are a little like the bankers who simply invest their deceptions there for fringe benefits and in reality hide the fact they don’t believe a word of it or anything like as much as you do. I grew up amongst groups who functioned like that per se; always acting friendly to outsiders and shafting them as the opportunity arose. In this respect religion is an ideal shafting vehicle, so it’s little wonder some who rise to the top are more exploitative than the sincere human can understand. If you have a mass of investors , how easy can it be to negotiate the ranks and get access to all the benefits one might desire? For those of us who spent years in the guilt and obligation mind frame it is unbelievable to learn than many never feel guilt and simply dish it out to control and manipulate others by rulings and double binds that they only kowtow to for the power it gives them. They are the ones who are judging personas and excuse all the stuff they indulge in by convincing themselves they atone for this by beating up on others – either unfairly or legitimate. PD individuals function in the same way and they really believe their own BS. This takes me back to what I said earlier: don’t quote scripture at me and not expect me to see brown all over your face!!!!!!!!!!! Some good advice the next time an elder brings out his New World Translation. I know you will be offended by this next point, though I intend none whatsoever; I NOW think and NOW feel in 100% of my psyche, of the Bible as of little value and predominantly as an outdated set of ideas of long dead men! I still hold the good treatment of each other as its only worthy message though that could be got from who we are per se. I once had no clue how I could ever lose the importance I held the Bible as – as if the only true book for all humanity. Here I am though as empirical world evidence taught me to first think differently and second to lose the painful emotional release/liberation from it all.
Best wishes to you my fellow human!
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 February 3, 2013 at 11:31 am
 
Several JWs have left their comments and, having failed utterly to defend their cult, have disappeared. This happens also on every Facebook page connected with JWs. What do they do when it must be clear to them that their cult and its pretensions are shown to be indefensible, and that they, (the Believing JWs) come to realise they are nothing more than pathetic dupes of a corrupt corporation which uses the threat of Armageddon annihilation in order to force yet more productivity from its unpaid labour force? Do they slink back to the Kingdom Hall and try to wipe out any doubts that their online encounters have generated? How do they square the lies and murderous inconsistencies of the organisation that has dominated their lives, with the notion that JWdom is the fount of Jehovah issued absolute TRUTH? Perhaps some JWs could explain this mystery, or maybe some recently emerged (or should I say ‘escaped’ or ‘released’ JWs) for whom the memory of this dilemma is sufficiently recent, could take us through how they dealt with the enlightenment and Kingdom Hall exit episode.
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 Ray Owen says:

 February 3, 2013 at 12:29 pm
 
Amazing that Marvel comics have an obsessive equivalence in the JW brain. Batman versus The Joker is how the whole universe ticks over. The idea there is a big goody and a big baddy! These two theatrical characters loom large in every emotion of the JW (and many a religious mind) as “Totalitarian thought submissive emotions” that will defy ALL reason and sensible discussion. The subverted mind exists and even depends upon itself now thus can only recycle the stuff it has already been hoodwinked by.
You see, any and all logic, discovery and whatever else you could think to educate a human about are totally blanked out; by the emotions of FEAR and the FOOLISHNESS of misplaced loyalty (fabricated, fiction taught love). These artificial brain constructs or imprinted emotions then form a lifetime barrier to a believer to ALL information; no matter how real, no matter how true. Like a sieve mounted on a heated mould, everything will be filtered out or squeezed to fit their universal fiction (scripture) else dumped as archenemy attacks.
In essence, the JW brain has had a historical set of monster memes (ideas that most humans down the ages have been proven to submit to) redesign their feelings and thoughts to fit its own clone production line for replication of same.
It’s practically impossible to see this if you are a fully hooked follower, still going along its conveyor belt. Ones emotions still overrides the clear thinking.
I recall a warning that I experienced at my first post baptism assembly when I went over to chat with some protestors and for the first time ever found that all this witnessing we were doing was NOT for these APOSTATES under pain of my own expulsion. Silly me having thought till then they were a bunch of freethinkers ! In fact , what a naive jerk I was and had no idea of this fact or sadly anyone around me who wasn’t full of the same.
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 Ray Owen says:

 March 8, 2013 at 2:13 am
 
Apostacy is that term used to subjugate the human mind with fear and insanity: that any ideas other than its own are evil or born of malicious intent, not only in the short term but as some universal and unquestionable rule lasting beyond ones lifetime and on down the centuries. The very idea of apostacy, as even a concept worth acknowledging, is bereft of intelligence per se. It cannot be a kindness to any human mind sincerely wanting to learn and thrive, to be told there are questions about things it must not only never ask but also subdue its sense and thoughts about due some long dead humans having already bullied this ruling into the local communities and used it down the ages to enslave people with – either by force , grooming, emotional seduction or general deviance.
So to you who shake inside with fear at the very idea an apostate mind is threatening you I say, ” Grow up, get a grip of your own mind and don’t bullshit me with all your FOG (Fear, Obligation & Guilt).
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 March 8, 2013 at 3:28 am
 
Excellent comment, Ray Owens. And boy, do the JWs exploit the power of that term. Dare to question Brooklyn issued JW TRUTH and it’s Armageddon annihilation for you. And when JW TRUTH changes, by order of the WBTS bosses, as it so often does, re. blood, shunning, Christmas celebrations, Jesus’s beard or whatever, are the JW bosses apostates? No, they are Jehovah’s exclusive channel of communication with earthlings. How do we know the JW Gov. Bod. are the Faithful and Discreet Slave? Because the JW bosses tell us they are. No questions; that’s apostacy and the Armageddon death penalty.
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 Ray Owen says:

 March 8, 2013 at 6:30 am
 
One of the weirdest states of mind JW’s , not to mention many people in general, have is one of superior moral standing – as if following their own code of regulation is more highly respectable in some way. It beggars belief as to how so many people use this snake oil tactic to transplant respectability onto what are essentially lies and worse still emotionally vapid lies. Those holding belief in their lists of rulings and whatever book of historical junk they demand is “holy” are in truth bullying the rest of us with superiority feelings: making us feel obliged to feel they deserve superior respect for making up/adopting historical lies and sounding them off as if from some perfect source of universal grace. WHAT TRASH TALK and I CONDEMN IT FOR WHAT IT IS: half baked guesses by humans of long ago about things they were bereft of any real understanding and about.
This is the landfill site of historic human thought garbage we are still living under the pollution of and it seems is set to long continue unchallenged and getting away with being given totally undeserved power and kudos.
Humans who believe it are most usually the victims of monster ideas that have grown into giants most unsuspecting humans struggle to see for what they are. These BIG sets of ideas most usually do like the multinationals and high finance – browbeat the blue collar worker into kowtowing to the production line of delusions they insist is for our own good and most certainly never to be questioned: under pain of being ignored , sidelined and generally bullied out of service. Such is very much the JW community I ever knew. Brown noses with Cherry Blossom – and the higher up the more chestnut their smiles. What a load of snake oil addicts!!!
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 eyes opened says:

 April 13, 2013 at 10:40 pm
 
Maybe the first question you should ask Jehovah God is to open your eyes to the truth. There is with out question a God who sent his Son to die for us. But what boggles my mind as a former witness is why the people in the JW organization dont do some simple research and see how and why this Organization was started. If God sent his son over 2000 yrs ago why would he need Charles T Russell to come a little over a 100 yrs ago and start or restart Christianity. Do yourself a favor. Pray, ask and let the Holy Spirit guide you to all truth , which is not found in the NWT. Have you ever asked yourself why the JW’s are not allowed to research the history of the organization? What do you know about the man that started it? What do you know about his wife? Have you ever read any of her books? or have you heard her version of Charles T Russell? If you really want to know the truth then I encourage you to remove the shackles of deception and in faith step out and search for the truth. My heart was broken when I realized that the JWS was not the Truth but God in his loving mercy began to open my eyes and set free from the pain and heart break of that deception.
 I was also abused as a child by this organization yet I never blamed God only the men involved. I Love God and I have spent my Life trusting and believing Him, despite the faults of man. Its not about weather or not God will ultimately take care of the injustice of the world ( Because he will ) The question we need to ask ourselves is ” Do we live a life that imitates Christ , are we a reflection of His Love and do we live lives that bring Glory to our Heavenly Father? Can you really look at the JW organization and answer yes? Pay attention to how anyone that is not a JW is treated and pay even closer attention to how many families have been divided/destroyed. My heart goes out to you because I know that you really love God as most JW’s do. Its not even your fault. There is a master deceiver that s really responsible for the lies. I pray that you find truth and that you will have the courage to ask God to show you.
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 Ray Owen says:

 April 14, 2013 at 2:39 am
 
No there was no son of divinity ever sent. Just NO! We already know humans were in Australasia 80000 years before this Middle Eastern myth even got spread around. Suppose it were true – what took it another 1800 years to get the story over there? Just nonsense. Even a child today can send a story worldwide in seconds. Some god your hoping on right there. “Erm sorry folks my mobile takes 1800 years to get around.”
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 Goldylocksnz says:

 May 10, 2013 at 4:54 am
 
Disfellowshipping is wrong, wrong, wrong…. what is just as bad, is allowing teenagers and young people to get baptized… Jesus is our perfect example. He was baptized past the bloom of youth, in his 30’s.
 I long for the day for the big “D” doctrine to be removed!!! They will be judged themselves.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 May 10, 2013 at 5:43 am
 
Do you, Peter, understand the word ‘dates’? Murderous flip flops on blood transfusion are nothing to do with dates. Protecting pedophiles has nothing to do with dates. Unless Abraham and Isaac are going to be resurrected in San Diego in some year other than 1925, then Rutherford’s idiot prophecy in ‘Millions Now Living Will Never Die’ is nothing to do with dates either. Jehovah either approves of Christmas celebrations or he does not, no matter the date. You, Peter, have been drilled by your Theocratic Ministry School only to prey on the lost, lonely and vulnerable in your mission to ensnare others into your cruel cult. When faced with those of us who know your cult from the inside, you have nothing to say. Your cult is indefensible and you must know it. Here’s to your escape!
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 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 July 24, 2013 at 3:09 pm
 
Ray Owen January 30, 2013 at 3:01 pm said:
(And I appreciate the sentiment, empathize if not largely agree)
“I left decades before the cognitive dissonance relented and I finally stopped having sympathy and subservience to various residual forms of their intellectual and emotional garbage. I will not forget the ones who got me in who were several generations into this organisation , or the humungous lies they pedaled to me which, became apparent down the line. It became incredibly obvious many are in it and don’t believe it all, yet will back stab you at a word wrongly out of place that breaches their code of totalitarian passivity they insist everyone adheres to. I detest their doctrine, in full! I will not forgive those who misled me into it and knowingly exploited whatever they could to maintain their long line of effluent. This is the only nostalgia I have of them and theirs – a sewer with a lasting stench! Good riddance to your whole system and I state it plainly, you are a parasite on all good people everywhere, not least those you mislead into your ranks to masquerade your oppressive, repressive delusional as if representative of good people. This is your cunning – trick some good folks into line and they will do the rest of your dirty work. Scumovahs Witnesses is the residue you prevail upon the unsuspecting mind! You cannot fathom how detestable your thinking is to me. Humanity would do well to be free of it! To poison the free mind into your dross is anathema to the very existence of humanity!”
With regard however to the comments that Ray keeps coming back to regarding the Aborigines and “80,000 years being in Australia Pacifica, etc” I do recommend this link for consideration and not that I endorse everything in it or the source but the information seems solid enough that it is worth ruminating on…
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v15/n3/how-long-have-aborigines-lived-in-australia
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 Faithful Witness says:

 August 15, 2013 at 11:02 am
 
Thank you for your thoughtful response to this website. Your words give me insight into how devout JW’s are taught to think and reason. I have great respect and compassion for faithful JW’s. I almost became one myself, but have happily found myself drawn CLOSER to Jehovah and the Jesus, since recovering from the shock I felt when the true nature of this society was revealed to me. I have found peace that passes all understanding, and the abundance of the Holy Spirit in my life is evident every single day.
I have a hard time understanding why a baptized JW is more pleasing to Jehovah, than a baptized Christian like myself. What makes me an apostate, when I am serving Jehovah every day? My children have learned more BIBLE truths since we started going to a “nominal” Baptist church, than they ever did at a Kingdom Hall. Their love of Jesus comes out in spontaneous songs, the way they interact with each other and with friends, and the choices they make each day. Anyone who would take the time to speak to either of my children, would be hard-pressed to find any fault in their faith or love for Christ and the sacrifice made with His blood. Could we be better Christians? Of course! We have our own tract ministry, that is just getting started. We are not as organized as the JW’s, but our humanity and love is part of our servitude. Jesus loves us, and we know it! He is merciful and the grace we have in our lives, is proof of His divine power and existence.
As we were studying with the JW’s, they encouraged us to examine the origins of religious traditions, rituals and secular holidays, etc… I never had a problem with separating from these worldly “pagan” celebrations, if it was truly pleasing to Jehovah. When we began to examine the truth about the teachings, traditions and rituals of the JW religion, we were confronted with a shocking response from our Bible teacher.
As an honest, open-hearted servant of Christ, I simply could no longer lie to my beloved friends at the Kingdom Hall. I care too much for them, and my own relationship with Jehovah, to stumble anyone else or appear as if I am belittling their beliefs.
We (my husband, my 2 kids and I) are among the very few that I’ve come across, who walked away from the JW meetings, and have since joined another Christian congregation. We were so convinced that we were sentencing ourselves to death, that we stayed away from the “evil” church for over a year. It turns out, the pastor isn’t really a servant of satan after all… He’s not perfect like Christ, but neither is the WTBS… See any irony here? Should you Keep following them, even if they are repeatedly wrong and misleading you?
I am so grateful for the JW’s, and their knock on my door!! It is because of these wonderful people, that I found my way back to Jehovah. I have heard Jesus calling me a few times throughout my life, but it wasn’t until we started our home Bible study, that I really answered that call. Thank you, Jehovah, for a discerning and intelligent mind! Above all, thank you for helping me to see the true nature of Jesus Christ, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Host of Hosts! I will no longer deny Christ! Jesus is Lord!
Jesus paid the ransom sacrifice for the sins of all. You just have to accept this salvation, and allow Jesus to reside in your heart. You can find peace, when you acknowledge Him as your true savior. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, the life. No one gets to the father, but by me.” Jesus was not a liar, and he warned us about getting misdirected and deceived into following the false teachings of men. Nowhere in his instructions, will you find him telling you to go to an organization of men for your spiritual food. The Bible is for everyone to read… Jesus can deal directly with you on a personal level. He is that powerful! Believe in Him!
When you refuse to partake in communion or the Lord’s supper at the Memorial ceremony, you are denying Christ himself. Every person who passes that plate and refuses the partake of the bread and wine, is refusing the sacrifice Jehovah made for him. Satan is happy when the Memorial attendance numbers are reported… Look how many actively deny Christ, while pretending to serve Jehovah!
You are following the teachings, and doing your best to please Jehovah.
 Your faithfulness, and your willingness to contribute to this discussion, is commendable, and shows that you are still capable of using your own mind to make decisions.
Ask yourself: are you serving Jehovah’s will, or are you seeking Jehovah’s approval by your association with the Watchtower? The watchtower is not a god. Your instructions are in the Bible. Do not rely on books and magazines from a misguided publishing company to make decisions that concern your eternal life. We are talking about eternity here! You will have to answer for your mistakes, and unfortunately, that is going to include the number of people that you helped to mislead away from serving Christ.
If the WTBS is truly the sole channel for Jehovah, they will not fear examination. Jehovah does not make errors. He does not lie or give us false teachings (that allow people to die), and he would not direct his slave to protect men who harm children. If the WTBS refuses to answer for themselves, how are we to know if they are Jehovah’s true organization? Are they above reproach? No! They will answer to Jesus Christ, when he actually does visibly return. Everyone will see Him, and Every knee will bow and admit He is God. Will you stand in judgment for ignoring the signs that are being given to you today? Go directly to the words of Christ for your answers. He is mediator to all men who seek Him. Seek Him! Seek His counsel for yourself… You don’t need to refer to a book that reasons with you on what you’re supposed to think the Bible says.
The fact that you are reading these pages, is a sign that you are seeking the real truth about Jehovah, and how He wants your service to appear. Any true organization will be happy to have themselves examined. Beware of anyone who tries to withhold information from you, especially about themselves. There are many faithful servants of Christ, praying for you each day. I have a special compassion for JW’s, who have proven themselves to be worthy friends and associates. When the great tribulation is at hand, I hope you will find yourself on the side with Christ Jesus. Get away from the wicked one. He is lying to you through the governing body, whose conscious mission at this point, is to preserve their own positions of power by isolating JW people from the truths that are being revealed about the society itself.
Truth does not fear examination!
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 INFJ says:

 October 26, 2013 at 3:23 am
 
hear hear
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 hammar says:

 September 11, 2013 at 10:24 pm
 
To all who don’t know that the word “Jehovah” is actually a Catholic word name. From the 12th century created by a Spanish Catholic monk. It is not a Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word that was used in the early Bibles or Testaments.
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 Mark says:

 September 21, 2013 at 8:50 am
 
My philosophy teacher told me that ‘truth is eternal…it doesn’t change’.
What always intrigued me at the KH was the excitement and anticipation when a ‘new truth’ was revealed, that automatically counteracted the existing truth. As the light was getting brighter, the new truths came thick and fast.
 My eyes were really opened when I asked an elder when the ‘new truths’ would be the ‘final truths’ and why we didn’t call it ‘current truth’. His reply that we should be grateful we aren’t taught Christendom’s lies still makes me smile today.
 Personally, I left it all behind ten years ago, having been blinded for over 25 years. And I am so so so much happier now than I have ever been.
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 KtotheRAD "Konrad" aka Kurt Hennig says:

 September 21, 2013 at 10:07 am
 
hammar says:
September 11, 2013 at 10:24 pm
“To all who don’t know that the word “Jehovah” is actually a Catholic word name. From the 12th century created by a Spanish Catholic monk. It is not a Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word that was used in the early Bibles or Testaments”
Yes, most of us do know that the pronunciation according to the Tetragrammaton is far more likely to be something closer to Yehuwah or Yahuwah or Yeshuwah but those of us who believe, it will yet be revealed to us at the appropriate time as it is in fact that sacred…The Tetragrammaton was given as a “working name” for now…so that it could not be profaned by the likes of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society!
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 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 8, 2013 at 10:10 am
 
This Is apace is for all who agree with the opinions expressed, say something favorable about the witnesses and get ready to be call a troll, trolling around watchtower propaganda.
Censorship is everywhere, here too.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 8, 2013 at 10:47 am
 
Kevin Kennedy. Feel free to say something favourable about the Witnesses. I do. I love the way they have redefined TRUTH. I used to imagine it was something that was immutable and eternal. Thanks to my Theocratic Ministry School training I now realise that it is anything announced by the JW bosses. It remains true even when one announcement contradicts a previous announcement. It is wonderful to know too, that those who died for want of blood transfusions, will, when they are resurrected on a Paradise Earth, learn that subsequent generations of Witnesses were permitted to receive blood fractions. It is also thrilling to know that Jehovah will murder all those who donated those same blood fractions. I am also impressed with the evidence for the Gov. Bod’s declaration that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. The Gov. Bod. say they are and God appointed them so they must be right. I don’t get upset about all these apostates saying horrid and untrue things about the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Kevin Kennedy. We both have faith that Jehovah will murder the lot of them when he gets around at last to doing his Armageddon. He will also slaughter you and me, Kevin Kennedy, for reading and contributing to apostate websites. But that’s TRUTH and Jehovah’s justice for you.
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 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 8, 2013 at 11:16 am
 
Are you crazy , say something favorable about the witnesses here? Get my head ripped off..?
The truth is in the bible, that we cant quite see it is s different story
 I joined the group that has leadership. All groups have leadership and usually people look to them for guidance, in any group, why should it be different here with the witnesses, we take the doctors word for things then things advance new things are learned, you’re going to stop treatment because they were wrong?
I doubt it very much that any of us could be more loving and Just that God Jehovah.
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 Truth says:

 October 8, 2013 at 12:12 pm
 
What is being portrayed he is nothing but lies, only absurd lies. We Christians who believe in the God of Creation are not even supposed to make comments at these sites or demonstrate and kind of response but remarks made here about Jehovah God are nothing but lies. But, we are told about satan and we know how he works so we expect this kind of torment. At least WE know what side we are one. If anyone wants to kn ow the TRUTH, JW.ORG. Thank you, Jehovah, for the wonderful life you have given me and my loving family of brothers and sisters, the only true brothers and sisters on the planet of Creation, who refuse to take up arms against anyone. Nor do we denounce our heavenly Father, Jehovah. We praise HIM for all he does for us.
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 Truth says:

 October 8, 2013 at 12:30 pm
 
Luke 23: 34 – Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 8, 2013 at 2:48 pm
 
Please point out the lies, TRUTH. We need your Jehovah issued wisdom to enlighten and save us.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 8, 2013 at 2:57 pm
 
There is someone calling him/herself TRUTH writing that there are lies on this site. He/she has not, however, explained. I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness and believed the Elders in my congregation when they declared that Armageddon, the great battle when Jehovah would murder all non Jehovah’s Witnesses, was due before the end of the 20th century. It did not happen. The 20th century Armageddon had, however, been presented to me as unquestionable and absolute TRUTH as it had been issued to us via Jehovah God’s exclusive earthly mouthpiece, Nathan Homer Knorr, the then President of the Watchtower Society, and thus the Faithful and Discreet Slave as referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24. This TRUTH turned out to be a lie. My subsequent studies have revealed that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have a track record of duff prophecy and doctrinal flip flops, all presented as if they were the TRUTH. Please, TRUTH, we would like to know where, on this site, are the lies.
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 Louise says:

 October 8, 2013 at 7:33 pm
 
Some of the kindest most thoughtful, non judgmental, warm, generous and humane people i have met in my life are not Jehovah witnesses. They will all die though according to Jehovahs witness beliefs. It doesn’t matter that they have tried their best to help those around them and are more deserving of entering a paradise through their daily altruistic deeds than most Jehovah witnesses. It even doesn’t matter that their sole purpose for doing what they did was because they cared and they wanted to see the other person happy, even without any hope, intent or thought of gaining everlasting life. They will die because they aren’t Jehovah witnesses. If that is the way that god thinks and operates i don’t want to be there.I dont believe for a second that he is that sadistic.
Fear makes people tolerate oppression, unkindness, unfairness. It makes a decent person watch on as bad things happen to basically good people.
 What Jehovah witnesses expect from their brothers and sisters is perfection they strive for it and they are afraid to make mistakes because they might die might loose out or be shunned by everyone else who are also afraid to make mistakes.
 What this religion promotes is fear. Love has no fear.
 I have read the bible myself. Not because i was being forced to in daily bible texts but because i wanted to. It talks a lot about love and what love is. Love is forgiving love does not take account of an injury etc. I do believe that when Jehovahs witnesses look at those words they pick and chose who they should love and who they should forgive and let others dictate that for them. Dis- fellowshiping for example is not showing love it is not loving your neighbor it is taking in to account an injury it is not forgiving. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and judge not lest you be judged yourself are they not part of the bible?
 The fact is that we are all human none of us is perfect we all make mistakes. Mistakes are a huge part of learning not just what not to do but also how to feel compassion for others based on experience. Life is not black and white. We are not either good or bad. The watchtower Awake and any other literature only strive to promote segregation and fear of the very people that they are supposedly trying to reach.
 Jesus associated with thieves and murderers because he understood what i and many others do which is that sometimes the people who’ve been shown the least love are the ones who deserve and need it shown to them the most and to simply avoid and shun them will never help them.
 your actions are what will speak for you. The way you show compassion and care and love on a daily basis, not because you might have everlasting life but because your heart tells you. It isnt about indoctrinating people in to a system of rules and regulations, how many bible studies you have whether you gave a great talk whether you give loads of cash its about being who you naturally are and showing care and love and anything other than that is a misrepresentation of what the bible is about.
 The bible society can churn out new rules and new doctines and twist it all they like but their haughtiness in believing that they are the chosen ones and the most favorable in gods eyes is their very undoing. The bigoted and self righteous way they manipulate the bible to fit in with their own arrogance is to me sickening.
 I once asked my Jehovahs witness mother a question.We were talking about Jehovahs witnesses reluctance to help charities other than their own especially other religious charities. I asked If we had a tsunami and you had to help someone, who would you help? Would it be the people in your street or people in your congregation? Her answer was My brothers and sisters at the kingdom Hall. Yet god says to love your neighbor what about the good Samaritan i asked? My brothers and sisters are my neighbor i would help them first was her reply….And yet other religions do not pick and choose who they help nor base it on which religion they’re in? We are no part of this world we help one another as one family was her reply. I found her answer disturbing.
 I am not a Jehovahs Witness and for all you witnesses coldly waiting for the end to come and for me to die just know i am prepared to die for my beliefs because if god truly loves people he will not kill them for being imperfect because we were all born that way. It is not mine or anyone elses place as a fellow imperfect human to judge or reprimand anyone else. If Armageddon is coming then god is big enough himself to do his own work and who on earth do they think they are, special? For all They know the mere fact they are so ready and eager and willing to see me die whether it be on his behalf or not might be what makes him chose it to be them.
 Love is something that comes from choice it is not forced or taught it is shown in actions and being frank, i know people who are Atheists, Gay and Catholics who deserve saving more than most Jehovahs Witnesses do.
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 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 10, 2013 at 12:26 am
 
I too was raised as a JW, i guess we as a whole had common sense, sense enough to know that humans don’t know , especially about Armageddon and when it comes.
Some people like attention, we were raised to look at the scriptures, and not to idolize people, when they said this and that we said what does the bible say, if Jesus does not not nobody knows the end of that story period.
So i or we as a whole family took that with a grain of salt, we knew what the bible said about that subject there. and when nothing happened we said there, you see. they have their mouths under their noses just like everyone else.
I learned very quickly when i was around 15 years old that they , i am talking the org, did not know all, I felt the heavenly calling started reading found out it was kinda closed, and to me at that age they were the MAX with a capital M. How can they be so wrong about this because i am not crazy, so that cause a lot of soul searching to see if i was just plain wrong or just crazy, i was neither,. they were wrong, and it was corrected, years later i will give you that but it was corrected and we all knew that that day wld come and it came. many years later i still have my hope it was no fluke. there was an article in a mag that asked DO YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ? .. and we asked that question many many times, in order to keep us present and awake, Bottom line you can’t believe everything you are told by human beings just like yourself
So i know not to take it so seriously.
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 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 10, 2013 at 1:06 am
 
It’s all very obvious i don’t want to get into that specially with you, resistance is futile.
Thanks anyway
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 10, 2013 at 1:25 am
 
What, exactly, is your point, Kevin Kennedy? Do you refuse to take the JWs seriously to the extent of binning the whole fraudulent cult? Are you simply defying them on the details and their presumption of omniscience? Your post does not make that clear. As a JW you have to believe the lot, no matter how absurd or contradictory or it’s an Armageddon zapping for you.
According to the Bible and Koran the End was due within the lifetime of the Disciples, St. Paul or Mahomet. Take your pick. It is as well not to take the Bible, Koran or any other man made book too seriously, especially if the writers pretend their book comes from God. Please try and explain your self with some clarity, Kevin Kennedy.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 10, 2013 at 11:12 am
 
We shall never know, it seems, what it was that ‘Truth’ and Kevin Kennedy thought they were on about. An unsubstantiated declaration and some meandering waffle convey nothing beyond the image of a muddle headed writer.
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 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 11, 2013 at 12:04 am
 
Fraudulent cult, no i don’t think so, Defying them no.
 i have no need to defy them, i simply choose to have things make sense and usually what doesn’t make sense is not true.
And i don’t have to believe anything i don’t choose to, interesting that you don’t even believe in the bible, and like many here are trigger happy with the witnesses.
I like the group, enjoy being with them, love the teachings, the principles. i am not going to go on because of obvious reasons suffice to say that i am very happy.
It’s sorta like a woman, or a man, you break up.. as long as you have ill will or are overly concerned with that person they’ve GOT YOU!
 kinda the same thing happens with the organization, the fact that people dedicate entire pages to critique the WATCHTOWER ORG speaks volumes,
 Think you left the jw’s behind? think again, it is present with you always, as long as you are consumed with this subject you are a slave to the WATCHTOWER ORG.
You know when you are really over a gal? when you simple don’t care any more. the same applies here.
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 Truth says:

 October 11, 2013 at 4:21 am
 
The “blind” cannot see, the “deaf” cannot hear, the “heartless” cannot feel. How could you possibly be enlightened? Get behind me, satan.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 11, 2013 at 5:20 am
 
So, Kevin Kennedy. You are at ease with looking forward to Armageddon day when Jehovah murders the greater part of the human race for the refusal to believe and obey every diktat issued by the JW bosses. Where there is evil it should be exposed and brought to an end. That is why victims of Roman Catholic priestly pedophilia have worked for years to expose the crimes and bring the criminals to justice. That is why the hunt for Nazi war criminals continued for decades after WW2. It would be utterly irresponsible, knowing the misery and death caused by the repulsive JW cult, not to work towards its exposure and destruction. That you are seemingly content with hanging out in a disgusting and murderous outfit is utterly shocking. That you do not believe, even, every bit of ever changing doctrine spouted by your bosses means that they look forward to the day God murders you. To value an outfit that wishes you murdered suggests a very peculiar mindset indeed.
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 Faithful Witness says:

 October 11, 2013 at 7:24 am
 
Kevin, I agree with your advice about letting a past relationship keep hold on your life. I walked away from the JW’s and didn’t look back. I was not baptized, so it only hurt a little bit to break up with “friends” who only loved me when I went to meetings.
A problem arose, when my JW family started punishing me and my innocent children, simply because we had decided not to join the org with them. Our once big happy family, has become divided. This sad situation has sucked me back in!
I wish I could walk away and not look back, but God has forced me to make another u-turn and reach out for my parents, sister and most importantly, my niece and nephew, who are being forced into this. They have been ripped from our family and taught twisted things about their cousins. My nephew actually thinks we worship satan.
I agree that we should not let the WTS have any importance in our lives now. Until they release their grips on my family and the innocent children inside, I can not, as a believer in Christ, turn my back anymore. I love my JW family, despite what they are probably saying about me to their kids, after every meeting. The “us vs. them” doctrine is a scare tactic that they are using to control people. I hope your family is intact.
I’m glad you are happy as a JW. If it gives you peace and fulfillment, there is no reason for anyone to try to stop you from believing what you want. You were created with free will and the capability to make decisions for yourself. I wish you all the best, but try to be a little more compassionate. Jesus was. Are you familiar with the parable of the Good Samaritan?
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 11, 2013 at 8:03 am
 
‘I’m glad you are happy as a JW. If it gives you peace and fulfillment, there is no reason for anyone to try to stop you from believing what you want. ‘ said Faithful Witness of Kevon Jackson.
Are you serious? Jackson’s beliefs are the cause of your split family and heartache. Beliefs not acted upon may be harmless. But JW beliefs are acted upon, and are cruel in the case of shunning, and murderous in the case of blood transfusion. Those of us who know the evils of this cult have a duty to stop the spread of these poisonous and damaging beliefs.
If we followed the advice of Faithful Witness, however, we would write the following; ‘Well he belongs to Al Quaedr and the God issued command to engage in Jihad. If he wants to murder infidels, well that’s his belief’ or ‘ He likes to lynch negroes, but then he belongs to the Ku Klux Klan and those are his beliefs and that’s his business’. Or what about; ‘He’s a really dedicated Nazi and his beliefs demand that he work for the extermination of the Jews, Gays and Gypsies’.
No, Faithful Witness, where ‘beliefs’ as disgusting and damaging as those of the Ku Klux Klan, Al Quaedr, the JWs and Nazis are concerned, those of us who know about the evils of these organisations have a duty to expose them and campaign for their dissolution.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 11, 2013 at 8:13 am
 
‘You know when you are really over a gal? when you simple don’t care any more. the same applies here.’ wrote Kevin Jackson.
Do you really expect to be taken seriously? How many people have ex girlfriends who are responsible for thousands of deaths due to refusal of blood transfusion? How many ex girlfriends have left a global trail of split families through shunning in their wake? How many ex girlfriends have manipulated millions, through the dark arts of cult mind control, and convinced them that they are God’s appointed and that their every word must be obeyed on pain of death at Armageddon? How many ex girlfriends have caused millions of lives to be wasted through edicts about higher education, and left otherwise capable people to be exploited as unpaid mag. pushers for a global property corporation? My analogy with Nazi hunters is valid. Your analogy with ex girlfriends displays the mind rot needed to remain as a faithful member of a cruel mind control cult.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 11, 2013 at 9:40 am
 
Rowland,
 Take a breath. This isn’t a war. I appreciate your thoughts, and I agree with some of what you said.
 I beg to differ. Kevin is a grown man, and actually is entitled to an opinion, and so are you, and me too. Everyone should be accountable for their own actions, whether they be shunning or accepting your family members, blindly following a false prophet because it feels good, or judging and using an anonymous forum to vent your frustrations on someone you don’t know anything about. Forgiveness goes a long way.
Judgment is not ours. Be compassionate. I think if he looks inside himself, Kevin will find he is missing something. There is no real peace for JW’s. But each has to make that decision for themselves. This is not a peaceful or loving religion, but if everyone around you is claiming to have peace, you believe it. He has never been out, and I commend him for looking at this website in the first place. He is examining the truth, whether he realizes it or not.
I find this website to be an expression of one man’s opinions, which I highly value. Cedars makes good observations. Are they complete and always in agreement with my personal beliefs? No. I am still willing to read and consider his viewpoint, since his life and exposure to this invasive group is much different than mine. We both have family we love, trapped inside the tower. This simple fact makes me keep tabs on what is happening with the JW’s.
As far as I know, there is not yet a member of the governing body posting comments here. We are all mere humans. I’m sorry if I offended you.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 11, 2013 at 9:51 am
 
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Faithful Witness. Of course we are ‘entitled’ to an opinion. No law on earth, nor power of enforcement, can change what is inside our heads. If, however, those opinions are damaging and dangerous (like those of Nazis, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Ku Klux Klan and Al Quaedr), those of us who are aware of the damage and danger have a duty to educate and, if possible, alter those opinions before they lead to lynchings, gassings, deaths through refusal of blood or car bombs. I am not happy that Kevin, or anyone else, is content through having been lulled into believing self righteous fantasies about surviving Armageddon to live on a Paradise Earth after God has murdered the rest of us. I too, hope that Kevin, and the 7 million other JWs, are released from the bondage of that malign cult. The campaign can work, both by informing rank and file JWs of their pitiable condition as unpaid mag. distributors for a global publishing and property corporation, as well as by chasing the bosses through the courts and hitting the organisation where it hurts, in the pocket.
Reply
 
 
 Gypsy Sam says:

 October 11, 2013 at 10:13 am
 
People have to awaken on their own and start having real questions that they want answered. Last year I had to answer where was the money coming from for Watchtower to pay out millions on the Candace Conti case…why was I constantly seeing JW’s act more uncaring about others, making comments on facebook to insult other religions, being excited about earthquakes and expressing no sorrow for lost lives at all…reconnecting with childhood JW friends that had left on their own accord because they discovered TTATT, yet being emotionally blackmailed by their families who will only love or accept them if they do it the WT way (not according to the actual Bible, or Jesus example of mercy)…why aren’t children abused by other JW’s and rape victims shown love in the congregation…
All this led me to this survey, which I am very grateful to Cedars for caring enough to make a difference.
 JW’s are awakening and it is beautiful to see some start to have a mind that is working and heart that is now unselfish and caring to all (not just those in their bubble of conformity).
Reply
 
 
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About JW Survey

A message from the founder of JWsurvey.org…
It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.
The Governing Body has yet to express any interest in hearing the views of ordinary witnesses. Their mantra is: “We talk, you listen!”

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!
This website seeks to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that is conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.
The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking. Subsequent surveys promise to attract even more attention as our website steadily grows in popularity.
A website for all
This site has been created and made available online so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about the organization and its governance.
We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning that we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored this survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.
Who started this website?
I write under the name John Cedars. Until recently I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I left for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.
I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.
It is my belief that not all is well within the organization, and many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body are not formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.
An unmerciful practice
For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows: “But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man… remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor 5:11,12)
Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians about the disfellowshipping arrangement never called for family members to be torn apart

Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.
There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home. But why should it end there?
Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees: “Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:13, New World Translation)
Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age, are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.
The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.
The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said, “Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.”
These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.
Only human
It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that is truly observant of the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.
The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.
I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.
Warmest regards,
 
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276 Responses to About JW Survey

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 Faithful Witness says:

 October 11, 2013 at 10:31 am
 
I agree with your mission of exposing and righting wrong, but the message has to be heard, if it is to make a difference. I find people are more likely to listen when you whisper, than when you yell.
 BTW, yelling at your computer screen itself, sometimes actually feels better than trying to put your passion for a cause in writing. Most people reading these comments will not hear you, either way. 😉
Kevin, keep examining the facts, and decide for yourself. The truth is out there.
Reply
 
 
 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 11, 2013 at 6:25 pm
 
Rowland,
 When people become witnesses they know what they are getting into. not all family member are going to be happy specially when they start to see the changes people make.
Your comments are great for this site, very dramatic, i’ll get a tissue, wait….
Loose the drama, millions of families fave been happy serving for years, there is another side to this story, millions of other stories happy stories.
In my view it is my humble opinion that a person who lets an org a person control their mind is week, so maybe that’s the problem.
You just switch from one mind control to another, but they both are unhealthy relationships, these types of people need to jump on a cause. before they were for and now they are against.
Look at all the people that have a higher education today. local college of trade is much better than years of debt and no job to pay.
No one has been exploited. it’s called being on of Jehovah’s Witnesses. altruism.
No mind control here, I need my wonderful powerful mind to judge and evaluate, i don’t swallow everything i am told.
Do you believe everything you read and are told?
 I don’t, my family doesn’t, we don’t accept things just because of who said it /exception BIBLE.
Apparently you don’t need a mind either to be stuck in time, with all that negative energy complaining about people that are happily living their lives with no thought to you’re daily objections to them.
 Back to the significant other-☼As long as you care, yr hooked.
Reply
 
 
 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 11, 2013 at 6:52 pm
 
I wish you and all who read me the best, from the bottom of my heart.
Parents are responsible for their children, a parent must have a grip on their children in order to protect them and shield them from harm.
People who are not Witnesses have a very different life, as you well know. Jw try to keep their children’s mind occupied with spiritual things, now you still believe in Christ Christendom style which is a theological topic which is not allowed here, but keep in mind that this God has 2 others just like him. that’s why the little nephew thinks that you worship you know who.
People look to associate with people who have similar interest, in order to bond but if you don’t have anything in common it’s kinda hard to work with that there.
But i do put myself in yr place/shoes and do understand.
 The children are being taken care of, they are being tough good things, so don’t worry about them.
Wish you all the best.
Reply
 
 
 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 11, 2013 at 7:10 pm
 
Rowland
 I am at ease with looking forward to Armageddon day when Jehovah destroys the greater part of the human race for the refusal to believe.
I cant wait!
a wonderful loving organized group is warning people today before it happens so watch out, God ‘ll get cha for that as Maude Findley wld say.
Change is Good without change we wld still be without anesthesia.
 change in doctrine specially good, it means things are alive, anything that does not change is dead, look at the churches.
No body looks forward to the day when God murders me, are you crazy? That might be the thinking of the group you hang with, but my brothers admire me and love me because i am a wonderful beautiful person.
It’s like they take you into the back room of the hall and torture you until you tell them that you don’t believe every single word that comes from an imperfect human being. you may be right but i don’t think so, this is the real world, come outta that fantasy in ye head.
I’s mind control, look out!
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 11, 2013 at 7:20 pm
 
Wrong again, Kevin. I was 5 years old when first taken to the Kingdom Hall. I had no armoury of reason to combat JW murderous filth. It was not my decision to be subjected to JW horrors.
So, Kevin, if you imagine you choose to believe or disbelieve whatever the JW bosses spout, then, according to them you are dead meat. Jehovah will zap you at Armageddon. If, however, you are a content, happy and fulfilled true believer then you have to believe the lot, as issued by God’s exclusive earthly rep. since Day 1 in 1879.
So, Kevin – you, if you really are a true JW, believe this little lot:
Jehovah’s plan can be calculated by taking measurements from the Great Pyramid.
 Jehovah has no opinion on blood transfusion: Pre 1945.
 Jehovah will murder anyone who has a blood transfusion: post 1945.
 Jehovah is OK with blood fractions but will murder you if you donate any blood from which fractions are taken: 21st century.
 Jehovah approves of Christmas celebrations: pre 1925.
 Jehovah will murder you if you celebrate Christmas: post 1925.
 The Gov. Bod. are the Faithful and Discreet Slave as referred to by Jesus in Matt. 24.
 Armageddon will occur in 1914, 1925, 1941, 1975 and before the death of the 1914 generation.
If you are a JW you have to believe all the above, or Jehovah will murder you. Maybe you doubt some of them. If you do, Jehovah will murder you.
If you do believe all the above, presumably you are at ease and fulfilled with the idea that Jehovah will murder anyone who doubts.
You are a tragic victim of cult mind control; an unpaid mag. pusher for a global publishing and property corporation. So many nominal JWs write anonymously to JW Facebook pages to explain that they only keep up appearances of true belief in order not to lose their family through shunning.
Pre internet those of us who left the JWs were met with bewilderment when we explained our detestation of our erstwhile Alma Mater. JW PR was successful in presenting its image of polite and well dressed religious enthusiasts. Those days are over. Ex JWs are now organised. AAWA (go google) will not cease its campaign until your cult has abandoned its damaging practices of shunning, of its ban on blood transfusion, its protection of pedophiles and its terrorising of young minds with its Armageddon fantasies.
It should not be too much of a leap for JWdom to radically change its tune. Its grubby little history is a litany of doctrinal flip flops. If reform means curtains for your cult, so much the better. Get used, Kevin to the idea of life without a Kingdom Hall.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 11, 2013 at 7:26 pm
 
Change is, of course, good. Truth, however does not change. JW TRUTH is of a different order. It is anything and everything spouted by the JW bosses.
I note, Kevin, that you have swallowed the JW nonsense that your little late 19th century Adventist spinoff sect is no part of Christendom. JWs are part of Christendom, a singularly ugly little part. JWs are also part of the world, one of its worst aspects.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 11, 2013 at 11:05 pm
 
Dispute an edict or diktat issued by your New York bosses, Kevin, and you will be excommunicated from your little fringe church of Christendom and shunned by all those who now profess to love you. Why should anyone believe the stuff spouted by a bunch of old men in New York who claim, with zero evidence, that they are God’s exclusive earthly rep.? Do you, Kevin, have any evidence to connect the JW bosses with the ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ of Matthew 24? I have asked dozens of JWs for evidence. None has supplied any. The reason is simple. There is no evidence. And the track record of these would be spouters of TRUTH? Duff prophecy, doctrinal flip flops, deaths through refusal of blood, protection of pedophiles, lost educational opportunities and split families through shunning. And you, Kevin Kennedy, expect people to believe and follow your organisation. The skids are under your outfit now. Wait for the string of child abuse cover up cases to hit the headlines. The fraudulent nature of your grubby little fringe cult of Christendom will be common knowledge. The dropout rate of born in JWs is already, at c. 66%, the biggest in Christendom. This can only increase. The size and determination of the group determined to smash the Watchtower can only grow. Get used to the idea of a world where the JWs follow the Buchanites, the 5th Monarchy Men, the Millerites, Taborites and Joachimites into the graveyard of CHristendom’s apocalyptic loony groups.
Reply
 
 
 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 12, 2013 at 1:17 am
 
I am not there to dispute or argue, when if that day ever comes I’m outta there that’s all, Try to take control of any group causing division and you most probably will be canned.
Shunned but loved, you punish yr children so then can feel the difference and take note. i don’t believe in the old men you are referring to. But what i have learned so far is right on!
You asked me what i believe and i will tell you, the faithful slave is connected to Jehovah’s witnesses, the truth about what the bible teaches jw have it down.
The thinking out loud and the conjectures of Humans to not negate the facts. i am not going to list the differences between the warring churches and the Christians
 about the churches and the command to not be part of the world
Can you tell a Christendom Cristian from a non believer, no you cant, but you can spot a jw a mile away.
You need some kind of evidence the JW teach the truth from the bible?
I am not going to suggest the obvious.
The difference is starring you in the face u just cant see it.
The biggest thing for me was the a political view of the witnesses bible based for sure.
The doctrinal flip flops have had to do with time periods. the same things happens in science and everywhere people keep learning and we can never know too much specially about Jehovah GOD
The deaths for refusing to disobey God specially when yr close to death, when yr dying that’s not the time to start ignoring God’s law and today blood transfusions are considered old school. who whats someone elses waist pulsing through yr cells. blood is special only made for that person don’t touch it, leave it alone.
Pedophiles are everywhere gotta watch the kids at all times don’t trust anyone period, and if anyone touches my kids they have a problem with me if find out about it first, that unfortunately is part of the degradation this wrld is going through before it is destroyed glory hallelujah! oh Glory!
Drop out rate you say, answer not true, how can you know that, unless yr the long island medium.
Don’t hate, congratulate.
And you tell me there is a big growing group who’s sole purpose in life is to destroy the wt? pretty sad don’t u think to be wasting all that energy on something so negative as destroying the wt, you thing they will succeed? i don’t think so.
Listen if Hitler and Fidel were not able to get rid of JW’S no mickey mouse group will either.
Listen mr, the witnesses have been without the WATCHTOWER decades in some countries and when the vail is lifted the amount of people that study and meet with the witnesses is impressive. so we need Jesus that’s all we need. it seems that the more people persecute these winners the better they get.
Reply
 
 
 Kevin Kennedy says:

 October 12, 2013 at 1:54 am
 
of course truth changes, we thought the world was flat for us that was the truth at that time.
We cant walk in space for us that was the truth at one time
 So the truth changes as we are prepared to assimilate it in time. that will be 50 dollars.
The truth is the information that we have about any given subject at that time.
I don’t swallow the nonsense repeated by you about the witnesses, and what ever names you wish to call them in a demeaning fashion. That is a desperate attempt to be mean spirited and hateful, good luck with that there.
Jw are very different and are no part of the churches of today that call themselves followers of Christ.
Gotta clean out the world to make way for the few the proud the worshipers of JEHOVAH! a small group but a rowdy one.
Life without kingdom hall is the way i grew up my friend.
We meet anywhere and everywhere even in the nazi concentration camps the witnesses that were there meet and had worship right there under the guards noses.
You Guys seem to think that Christians are wimps, were rough and were tough, and we are rugged. air conditioning ans actual seats to sit on please!
we meat in the swamp in the dark.
 Magazine WATCHTOWER
rarely seen, but many bible study and a lot of attendance at the clandestine meetings
What else, i am mind controlled, that is because i don’t agree if i were to agree then you wld be controlling my beautiful precious mind.
And Just because we worship God in peace and preach the good news to others you hate me, how could you hate me? nobody hates the big K,
Listed ROLND, chill, relax.
 The watchtower really did a number on you child!
There are great mental health providers that can help you with that watchtower issue that you have there.
Must be pretty uncomfortable having to write down and relive all that negativity but you seem to enjoy the emotional pain reliving it time after time, judging it, discussing it tarring it apart, turning it around in yr head day after day, after day, thinking of the next posting, because you got something you just gotta say and answer back. obsession is a perfume.
Go to sleep relax pay to JAH
 i’ll party i mean pray for you
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

 October 12, 2013 at 4:18 am
 
We are not out to get rid of witnesses. I don’t want to see any witness harmed or impeded in their worship.
I want to see healthy debate. I want to see a leadership that takes reasonable and morally helpful decisions.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 12, 2013 at 5:43 am
 
I’m sure you have heard, “you will know them by their fruits…”
This has many applications and applies to everyone. One question for you, the same as I asked my mom:
 How many new baptized members do you have in your congregation, as a result of the house to house ministry? How many service hours does your congregation report each month?
 I would like to suggest that the field ministry work you are doing, is almost fruitless. It is busy work, behavior control. I know you are doing this at your own free will, but have you ever considered that there might be a better way to serve the master? If you are a follower of Christ, you should be his servant and serving the least of his brothers. He never said only serve JW’s… He instructed his sheep to feed the hungry and help the poor.
With that said, I want to express my appreciation for your heartfelt expressions here. You are clearly a devout JW. Your thoughts and opinions do matter.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 12, 2013 at 6:23 am
 
Kevin. Youyr state of mind is desperate. Yes, there are pedophiles in every walk of life. JWdom, however, is unique in that it uses the Bible, with its 2 Witness rule, to protect them.
You clearly do not understand the doctrine of JWdom. According to your bosses the only route to salvation is through the Faithful and Discreet Slave, the old geezers in New York. If you do not accept their authority as absolute then you are an apostate and, although I wish you health and happiness, your JW bosses look forward to the day God murders you at Armageddon.
 Yes, many scientific theories change. But JW TRUTHS are presented as immutable, God given and absolute. The JW TRUTHS you have to believe, on pain of Armageddon execution today, may be binned by your New York bosses tomorrow. Had you received blood fractions in the 1950s that would have merited an Armageddon zapping (at an Armageddon due before the end of last century incidentally!).
 You are also, Kevin, defying the JW bosses by engaging with apostates. You do not seem to realise that you have elected to belong to an absolute dictatorship of the mind. Loads of cults and sects have come and gone in Christendom. Your little Adventist spinoff’s days are numbered.
When there is a threat to human happiness, or indeed to human life, those who know of the threat have a duty to fight it. That threat may come from terrorists, disease, malign religious cults or criminals. The Advocates for Awareness of Watchtower Abuses mean business. The WTBTS has got loads of money, certainly and can buy expensive lawyers. Along with the dark arts of cult mind control have come the techniques for exploiting a gullible unpaid mag. distribution labour force. If the Candace Conti fine is exemplary, then a series of convictions could make a serious dent in JW finances. Recruitment outside Africa has stalled. When the cash dries up the WBTS will go into liquidation. Bring on that happy day!
It is interesting to note that you, Kevin, have given no evidence for any of the ever changing TRUTHS spouted by your bosses. I have listed a number of absurd pronouncements. You have listed no positive JW achievements or insights whatever. There is a simple reason for that. There are none.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 12, 2013 at 5:39 pm
 
Excelsior: I agree! I would like JW’s to be able to express their opinions and speak their minds, like anyone else. They should be allowed to form their own opinions and maybe even their own beliefs! Independent thoughts from a JW, would be most refreshing. I hope that any thinking JW will take the few minutes to complete the anonymous survey, which is the purpose of this site… Giving the JW’s a voice! http://www.jwsurvey.org
 No one has to know you were here… Your thoughts do matter, even if you’re not allowed to doubt out loud.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 13, 2013 at 4:43 am
 
We at AAWA, the Advocates for Awareness of Watchtower Abuses owe a debt of gratitude to Kevin Kennedy. His posts are a ghastly illustration of the mental damage wrought by the behaviour of the Watchtower Society. He has confirmed, in his comment above, that he looks forward to the Day of Armageddon when his God will murder the greater part of the human race, for the refusal to follow, blindly and absolutely, every diktat issued by the Gov. Bod. of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
These 8 self appointed, controlling, arrogant and money grabbing old men head an outfit which has the following ‘achievements’ to its credit (debit?):
1. It is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths, including those of children, for its ban on blood transfusion.
2. It has a Bible based policy for protecting pedophiles.
3. It has caused thousands of families to be irrevocably split due to its edicts on shunning.
4. It is the cause of countless Armageddon filled nightmares.
5. It has a issued a series of duff prophecies.
6. It associated with the United Nations, which it had condemned as the Whore of Babylon, before its cover was blown.
I have asked many JWs to list the positive achievements of their cult. There have been none forthcoming.
Kevin Kennedy genuinely believes that the majority of humanity deserve the death penalty for not following blindly every pronouncement of the leaders of this obscene and hideous outfit. Like other JWs, he can name no positive achievements of the misery making corporation to which he has sacrificed his life.
 Ultimately, Kevin Kennedy, I wish you well; I wish you freedom from the clutches of the criminal old geezers in New York. Rest assured, however, that your pronouncements in the meantime are of great service to the movement that looks forward to, and is working towards, your cult’s implosion.
Reply
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 13, 2013 at 10:09 am
 
Rowland,
You seem to be under the wrong impression.
 The watchtower was established disseminate Jehovah God’s message mainly in print.
We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body,
►they have their mouths right under their nose just like everybody else. they are not profits and we all know that, JW don’t believe in modern day prophecies
Due to this wonderful selfless work, directed by the angels of Jah many people have become literate.
They have been freed from the fear of the dead, the fear of burning in hell and now are free to worship Jah.
When the WATCHTOWER PRESSES, Go Bankrupt, and or are destroyed by Rowland’s group of people will the witnesses disappear
 -OH HAPPY DAY FOR ROWLAND!?
 not so fast.
Picture iT WALKILL 2099, The Watchtower edifice is Gone!
 The printing pressed are silent, a mouse urinating on a cotton ball can be heard. To witnesses meet secretly, one has a copy of the bible, the other ink for the home pressed now being used in local neighborhoods, the work of Jehovah’s witnesses have gone underground.
But danger lurks all around the people who used to write about a HAPPY DAY without the WITNESSES have actually organized into bands of armed men and women who are busy dragging witnesses family out of their homes and making an example of the in front of the public at large. The meetings are still held and the preaching still goes on, the memorial is still held every year.
Is this a fantasy? this would never happen in the good old us of a , ah but it has happened, it happened in here in the US OF A-.
And ROWLAND , my friend here you are proposing to exterminate the JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES once more just like it happened in the past.
We don’t depend on a governing Body or printing presses
 we depend on Christ.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 13, 2013 at 11:09 am
 
Thank you for confirming, Kevin Kennedy, the points I have been making. Your bosses repeat over the years that they and their organisation are the only route to salvation, the only channel to God. You clearly do not believe a fundamental tenet of your cult. You are desperate to imagine you are a free agent. Your bosses tell you the organisation is indispensable; you declare you can do without it.http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/quotes-regarding-watchtower-organization-and-salvation
Either way, whichever is describing the real situation, you have given no reason why anyone should want anything to do with an outfit whose soul effects have been unnecessary deaths from refusal of blood, a string of duff prophecies, wasted lives through the disapproval of education and split families through shunning. You have, in your many and lengthy posts, not only failed to answer any criticisms, but have failed to offer any reason why anyone should want anything to do with an outfit whose record is disgraceful, negative, misery making and murderous.
Quite possibly, as you point out, the end of the JW org. may not be the end of the history of Christendom’s apocalyptic lunacy. Adventists, after all, regrouped after the Millerites dispersed, and the JWs and the David Koresh gang broke away from the Adventists. The 5th Monarchy Men were not the last group of English apocalyptic wackoes. We can only hope that, in time, the whole cruel nonsense will go the way of armed crusades, witch and heretic burning and the other monstrosities that litter the history of Christendom.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 13, 2013 at 11:21 am
 
Kevin said, “We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body…”
Can you provide one example of an “opinion” you have disobeyed, aside from visiting and commenting on this website?
Reply
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 13, 2013 at 11:52 am
 
Rowland
Life isn’t black or white,
 You want to pigeonhole me into a box to accommodate you and yr distorted view of the witnesses.
The only way to salvation is doing Gods will and JW’S are doing it.
 so it is best to be with those.
You are desperate to discredit anything that is true, i declare we had done without the organization as you think as you see. but we are still with you.
One wants to be with this group specially for the things you point out.
they adhere to Gods written law of Blood.
 They don’t allow corruption to infiltrate the Cong.
 People who violate God’s law and refuse to correct this after many chances are expelled, again bible based. but we cant discuss that because number one you don’t care about that we do and secondly it’s against the rules of this site.
The prophecy’s you talk about era imagenery in yr head.
 yr just mindlessly repeating what you read.
►ROWLAND Just to let you in on something you probably do not know . They don’t believe in prophets today, and they have stated this in the literature.
so we got rid of one misunderstanding now, so now you know this that you dis not know before. lets see what else
I do not have to give reasons why should be with an outfit such as this as you say, the purpose here is to give reasons why you shouldn’t and i will dispel them and tell you the real truth about things.
Every time you say an untruth I’ll be there to correct you.
Reply
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 13, 2013 at 12:01 pm
 
Faithful Witness says:
 October 13, 2013 at 11:21 am
Kevin said, “We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body…”
Can you provide one example of an “opinion” you have disobeyed, aside from visiting and commenting on this website?
______________
Sure i dont know the level of knowledge that you have on the jw’s i will elaborate, since 1935 JW’S came to understand more clearly that not all go to heaven, so they thought or put out there in the mags and books that the number was complete and no more anointed were being chosen for heaven.
One of the GB when on to say in the WATCHTOWER,
“NO MORE INCORPORATION”
According to what you would have US believe, it would be unthinkable that one of Jehovah’s witnesses would do something the GB has said you dont need to do.
So now new memorial partakers!!!!
 is that what happened?
look at the statistics…
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 13, 2013 at 12:51 pm
 
Thank you, Kevin Kennedy for failing to address a single point I made and thus demonstrating yet again the tragic state of mind of a true believing JW.
You mentioned Jehovah’s Law of blood. Can you tell me why Jehovah keeps changing his mind on this law?
Why does a pure congregation take special care, using a verse from Deuteronomy, to protect pedophiles within its ranks?
I attended the Kingdom Hall regularly in the 1950s and was assured that the 1914 generation would not pass before the advent of Armageddon.
It is clear, that you not only choose to defy your New York bosses, but you have very little idea about what it is JWdom actually stands for. Presumably you just drift along there out of habit and enjoy the feeling of superiority.
I do not expect any answers with information or reasoned argument. You have demonstrated that of both you are incapable. Doorstep preaching is pretty ineffectual even when conducted by the articulate. It is some consolation that your rambling drivel is highly unlikely to ensnare anyone into your cult. My thanks to you once again for providing a public demonstration of the tragic state of mind of a JW true (or maybe untrue) believer.
Reply
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 13, 2013 at 1:27 pm
 
Rowland,
My boss is not in ny, they moved to walkill,.. no just kidding, he’s up in the sky above watching you so look out!
First let me correct you again because yr unbelievably confused. number one, our dear beloved brothers who compose our beloved and respected governing body, as holy as you might think they are, there not JEHOVAH.
And about pedophiles, let’s clear up one more thing so pay attention, If you were informed of, or if you caught some one in the act of molesting abusing yr child, you would calmly call the elders, have them set up a meeting with you and, are you kidding me? for real!!!
Hey Guys wake up!! the congregation has little to do with this, this is s legal matter. if later the matter is addressed by the elders i really dont care personally if i was in that case God help me.
Remember that the elders children are also at risk of molestation, and it’s not just one elder, in many cases there are 8 elders in a congregation, whole families are at risk from this predator so take that into account when you accuse them of protecting such and such.
If you believed that before any date in time the end wld come, yr mind is week and foolish this is not what you have learned from the boss upstairs in heaven, actually it is just the contrary, so look upon it as a test that you failed miserably.
I have constantly demonstrated that you are not acting in good faith in these discussions, get ready to be challenged by this humble servant of yours and Christ in the stamens that you make that are false.
Don’t Get mad because i showed you up- Rowland
 Yr idea of a discussion dis not go yr way because i speak the truth fairly, i recognize the things that have gone wrong as far as dates just like it has been recognized in print.
I recognize that the disfellowshiping is very heart breaking, any sin breaks families.
If you don’t agree with the teachings of this group leave it’s that simple, you dont even have to be disfelloowshiped do it yr self, stop doing what they do.
Go with some dignity that it.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 13, 2013 at 5:47 pm
 
Kevin, you are being misled.
 You said, “The only way to salvation is doing Gods will and JW’S are doing it.
 so it is best to be with those.”
Who told you that?
Reply
 
 
 DJ says:

 October 13, 2013 at 7:08 pm
 
Do all Jehovah Witnesses Blackmale and Threaten young Children .That God will hate them
 My oldest grandson found a toy in Kitimat BC Kingdom Hall .That another parent brought along for their young child to play with .My Grandson found it played with it a bit . My Daughter Boyfriends adopted so called mother .Told my oldest grandson .Who is Autism .That GOD will HATE HIM ..It was my grandson who really wanted to go to Church .Now after this woman said this to him .He has never went back to this Kingdom Hall .Nor does he want anything to do with this woman .
 Please keep in mind I am a Christian Woman .Our Bodies are God’s Temples and Our Hearts should be God’s Church .Jesus tell us all To love one another .God gave us all the same 10 rules to OBEY HIM
 This women I tell you about .Has also tried hard to steel both my Daughters boys .and wants my Daughter to give her child to her adopted Daughter yet tell my Daughters youngest boy ..( quoting my grandson words here .This 1 is only 5 years old – He told his mom .You are not my real mom .Gramma is my real mom .And I only have to list to her and dad .) Yet this woman is Jehovah Witnesses .Claims she has never had SEX with her Husband .So how sick is this ? Huh is these the kicks of sick things you practice on little peoples heads and Brain washing them .GOD”S Wrath will give this woman night mares and others too if this is being done to young ones .For all children belong to God and come from God .For killing them and not helping them when needed .Now you are all warned
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 13, 2013 at 7:49 pm
 
Kevin Kennedy is a contradiction in terms. He pretends he is a Jehovah’s WItness, but ignores all that they teach him about the Faithful and Discreet Slave being the only route to salvation. He also claims to be unaware that the JW bosses have regularly come out with dates for Armageddon. OK, so this guy, and fellow loonies, may well continue with some self centred Armageddon fantasies in their heads after the WT Establishment goes belly up. Whether any will form a global publishing coy. and mind control cult on a similar scale is, though, open to question. JWs have already been found guilty, in the Candace Conti case, of neglecting their duty to children. Presumably Kevin Kennedy will pretend that this case and the others to follow are as fictional as he wants to imagine JW Armageddon date setting has been. The JW bosses, of course, will wish Kevin an Armageddon death for imagining he can bypass their authority and get straight to the Big Man in the Sky without their exclusive mediation. If the JW bosses knew of Kevin Kennedy’s apostacy he would be disfellowshipped.
Reply
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 14, 2013 at 7:31 am
 
To rowland:
Wrong one more Mr Ro.
 I have demonstrated time and again that yr accusations are desperate and baseless, you have entered into yr own world. awake!.
You expect people to act and behave according to that story in yr head, and when that does not happen you get frustrated. too bad for you.
According to the faithful and discrete slave of our lord Jesus, the only way to salvation is what Jesus said, read IT.
I am aware of the dates, they were not prophetic words like the evangelicals.
►JW dont believe in modern day prophets
 so there is another of yr baseless arguments down
lets continue:
The ignorance you display is daunting, Christians dont depend on a printing press to organize and worship God Jehovah. this has been demonstrated all around the world in places where the truth is banned.
ONE MORE FALLACY DOWN, LETS CONTINUE:
 There are many printing presses and witnesses around the worls that do the same as the central office at brooklyn.
As a matter of fact and just so you know. just a little bit of inside news you might not be aware of–
The printing of the mags and books, are being transferred to different zones, there is one in mexico to handle Latin America, another in Australia, and so on.
Decentralization of the org.
The case you keep referring to the legal case,
 If someone abuses yr child, you go to the police first supposedly, or you go find the pedophile first, but what kind of parents sit around waiting for the elders to do what?–JUST THINK ABOUT IT- this is all a smoke screen, a non existent issue, I’ll tell you why.
Any parent that finds out that there child has been abused and goes to the elders of the cong instead of calling the police is a, fill in the blank.
rowland you are so lost, how did you ever get so messed up?
 because of the witnesses .
 that just proves the point .
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 October 14, 2013 at 7:35 am
 
Kevin, I have a question for you.
You say “JW dont believe in modern day prophets”
Please could you tell me who are the “two prophets” spoken of in Revelation 11:10?
I look forward to your answer.
Cedars
Reply
 
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 14, 2013 at 7:47 am
 
Cedar, this question implies n answer that would violate the rules of the site if i understood them correctly.
The question you pose, does not pertain to my statement.
It is repeated time and time again mindlessly, with out reasoning about it that JW are prophets and that whatever they might say in the literature about any future happening is a prophecy from them. nothing can be further from the truth.
Jw teach that no human today is able to prophesy, reason for this:
 is all written already in the bible.
very simple one more lie down.
Now you can say that i am a troll and am trolling around that yr favorite excuse to kick people out just like you have done in the past.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 October 14, 2013 at 8:17 am
 
Don’t be silly. The answer would not violate the rules of the site. I am asking you who Watchtower identifies as being the “two prophets” – not giving you license to indoctrinate people. I discuss Watchtower doctrine all the time but am clearly not indoctrinating anyone.
If you don’t answer the question you will prove yourself to be a troll.
Reply
 
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 14, 2013 at 7:50 am
 
Faithfullwitness
 Who told you that?
Reply
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 14, 2013 at 8:07 am
 
Faithful Witness says:
 October 13, 2013 at 11:21 am
Kevin said, “We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body…”
Can you provide one example of an “opinion” you have disobeyed, aside from visiting and commenting on this website?
——————————————
Sure, I’ll provide you with one big example, i dont know how familiar you are with JW teachings but from the looks of things here, i will elaborate.
In 1935 JW came to a clearer understanding about heaven, they understood that a small representative group of people wld go to heaven.
They thought that this calling was more or less coming to an end, closed, a member of the governing body went as far to say
 NO MORE IN CORPORATIONS!!-
So according to you guys here, it wld be unfathomable for a JW to go against the GB especially in this occasion especially in front of all when all eyes are upon you at that moment.
According to what you would have us believe all memorial participation stopped!! on a dime.
IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED?
 CHECK THE STATISTICS.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 14, 2013 at 12:06 pm
 
Kevin: So, are you telling us that you are partaking of the memorial emblems? I think you misunderstood my question.
You said, “We don’t obey every opinion emitted by our dear brothers of the governing body…”
Can you provide one example of an “opinion” YOU have disobeyed, aside from visiting and commenting on this website?
Also still wondering about your statement: “The only way to salvation is doing Gods will and JW’S are doing it. so it is best to be with those.”
Who told you that was the way? Who said JWs are doing God’s will? Do you know what Jesus actually said about this? (John 14:6)
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 14, 2013 at 12:10 pm
 
The Watchtower outfit has been convicted and fined in the case of Candace Conti. Its Bible based 2 witness rule is illegal. JWs have made prophecies. That they say they do not believe in modern prophecy is simply another of their crazy contradictions.
You want to believe, Kevin, that as a JW, you have a direct line to Jesus. You do not. Your bosses demand that you approach JC through his earthly sole agent, the New York (or Warwick County) bosses.
I presume you have devoted so much of your life, your time and your energy as an unpaid mag. distributor for that corrupt cult that you have to try and convince yourself that JW TRUTH is true.
You are defying them anyway by interacting on this site with apostates so your bosses for whom you have contributed your time, money and energy, will consider you dead meat anyway. It is tragic, I realise, that you have nowhere else to go.
I hope that when the Watchtower falls, or you recover from your pathetic delusion, Kevin kennedy, that you find a meaningful and contented way of life. Millions of ex JWs have done just that and there will be plenty of support when you wake up.
Best wishes.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 14, 2013 at 1:04 pm
 
When I was a JW, back in the 1950s, a pre 1914 baptism was the cutoff date for admission to the 144000 and participation in the Memorial. In my Leigh on Sea congregation there were two old ladies and one old gent who qualified. That the ‘heavenly admission’ and Memorial partaking rules have changed is simply par for the crazy JW TRUTH course. Truth, as commonly understood is fixed and immutable. JW TRUTH is of a totally different order. It is anything and everything, no matter how wacky, spouted by the JW bosses. Where this Kevin Kennedy guy has picked up the notion that you can be both a freelance communicant with Jesus and a JW I have not a clue.
My mad mum was the only baptised JW in my family. I did not thus suffer the agonising traumas of escape suffered by some in the ex JW community. Like Kevin, and his delusion that you can be a JW and bypass the bosses, my mother had a similar delusion. She imagined that being an unwashed and unkempt scruff made her super Holy. She was defiantly blind to the JW dress code even when it cost her the ‘privilege’ of door knocking. She was proud to announce, however, that she was still permitted to distribute magazines to neighbours and acquaintances.
JWdom attracts a whole hot of the vulneable, biddable, depressed and downright deranged. Kevin Kennedy is simply one more tragic example.
Reply
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 14, 2013 at 8:55 pm
 
fAITHFULLWITNESS:
Yes that is what i am telling you and i dont think you grasped it, basically they said the number of the anointed was complete.
At the age of 15 the GB was a big deal to me, they were it. basically they did not know what they were saying on this issue.
I partook and everybody else who felt they needed to did, so that is a big example of something that cant get more important.
The JW did not go along with the program on that, people still partook whatever the GB SAID.
Reply
 
 
 KEVIN KENNEDY says:

 October 14, 2013 at 9:02 pm
 
Cedars commented on About JW Survey.
in response to KEVIN KENNEDY:
Cedar, this question implies n answer that would violate the rules of the site if i understood them correctly. The question you pose, does not pertain to my statement. It is repeated time and time again mindlessly, with out reasoning about it that JW are prophets and that whatever they might say in the literature […]
Don’t be silly. The answer would not violate the rules of the site. I am asking you who Watchtower identifies as being the “two prophets” – not giving you license to indoctrinate people. I discuss Watchtower doctrine all the time but am clearly not indoctrinating anyone.
If you don’t answer the question you will prove yourself to be a troll.
——-__________________________
I dont do well with threats, you just lost the answer i was prepared to give you, maybe yr just very young and don’t know how to speak with people, but that’s not the way to deal with me.
i expected no less, you did not disappoint
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 October 14, 2013 at 11:25 pm
 
You don’t get it, do you Kevin?
I have a duty to keep JWsurvey free from trolls so that it can be enjoyed by all.
I asked you a simple question, and you refused to answer it simply because you know full well the answer contradicts what you have said elsewhere on this page.
This proves to me that you are not interested in genuine debate but only in pursuing your own agenda.
Henceforth you are banned from commenting on JWsurvey.
Reply
 
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 14, 2013 at 9:41 pm
 
Kevin, are you of the anointed class?
 Do you believe that your works (“doing God’s will”) are the only way to get you into heaven?
 We are blessed to have someone of your standing, commenting on this blog! What are your thoughts on Jesus’ words at John 14:6?
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 14, 2013 at 10:21 pm
 
Kevin, If you were 15 in 1935, then you are now age 93. Is that correct?
 Also, what year was the GB formed?
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 15, 2013 at 12:30 am
 
Like the founder of JW Survey, I too support free speech. It is a pity that Kevin Kennedy was unable to appreciate this freedom and used this site to try and convince himself that free thought and being a Jehovah’s Witness were compatible. If nothing else, his failure to answer questions and his illogical and twisted state of mind were a useful example to any observers, of the tragic inner turbulence that must possess so many practising and indeed, inactive but believing, JWs.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 18, 2013 at 2:34 pm
 
No, Kevin Kennedy, you do not understand TRUTH. Truth is, by definition, unchanging. Scientific ideas about the nature of the universe are not presented as Truth, merely the most likely, bearing in mind current evidence.
JWdom’s lies have left a whole load of misery in their wake. Advocates for God’s laws, Biblical or otherwise, always claim that they represent the unchanging, immutable and eternal, unaffected by human discovery or fashion. That is the line taken by Christian anti women priest types and Christian gay bashers. It is also the line taken by that most grubby little corner of Christendom, that blight on the world, the Church of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The old geezers who run it, who would wish Kevin Kennedy a divine murder at Armageddon for defying their authority and interacting with apostates, present their bilge as unchanging, immutable God issued TRUTHS. God thus approves and disapproves of Christmas celebrations, approves and disapproves of blood transfusions, will and will not do his Armageddon before the end of the 20th century.
The old geezers who run the corrupt global publishing and property corporation known as the Watchtower Society, have claimed, with zero evidence, that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24. Their entire authority rest upon this ridiculous claim.
So don’t worry Kevin Kennedy. The fact that a bunch of self righteous, self appointed, self serving and controlling old farts in the US think you deserve the death penalty, means nothing whatever. If you really enjoy going to dreary little meeting halls, listening to boring talks and reading awful mags while wearing a boring suit, there need be no laws to prevent you; feel free and carry on. Rest assured, though, that AAWA will not cease its campaign until JWdom has binned its murderous blood policy, packed up shunning those who disagree with its bosses, stopped protecting pedophiles, and no longer terrifies kids and others with its Armageddon nonsense.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 18, 2013 at 9:54 pm
 
Sorry! 2 omissions from the above.
1. AAWA will continue to highlight, until binned, JW demonisation of higher education.
2. As well as the JW features mentioned, feel free to continue enjoying the most uninspiring and dull music in Christendom.
Reply
 
 
 Voice_of_Reason says:

 October 24, 2013 at 12:06 am
 
Some of the most wonderful people I have ever met were JWs when I used to go to meetings in the 70s/80s. Rowland Nelken presents some sound arguments and counter-arguments but his vitriol against all Witnesses is grossly unfair. We should remember Psalm 118.8 about ‘putting your trust in mortal man’ when thinking of the GB, for so long as they are alive on this Earth, they are unquestionably ‘mortal men.’ We should remember that one of Christ’s first actions when he went unto his ‘Father’s House’ in Jerusalem, was to throw out the traders and criticise the Scribes and Pharisees: those charged with the spiritual welfare of his ‘flock.’ I am not saying that GB members are of this class but, as a lovely, humble old JW (elder) once said to me: “There could be a few surprises come Judgement Day.” JWs or not, let all of us Christians put our trust in God and Christ. Amen
Reply
 
 
 Liam Smith says:

 October 25, 2013 at 5:40 am
 
Your comments in my opinion come across as rather judgmental.
 I agree with you in that this is the organisation God is using but the way you expressed this to the author of this website was somewhat over the top brother.
 God’s spirit is indeed asked for in directing matters but in some cases the elders with their eyes wide open choose a very unchristian way to express themselves to congregation members even though they are clearly aware of the spirits operation. These men will indeed bring in upon themselves the justice they deserve in treating God’s sheep with disdain and contempt especially when sheep that are stumbled walk away from God.
Reply
 
 
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About JW Survey

A message from the founder of JWsurvey.org…
It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.
The Governing Body has yet to express any interest in hearing the views of ordinary witnesses. Their mantra is: “We talk, you listen!”

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!
This website seeks to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that is conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.
The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking. Subsequent surveys promise to attract even more attention as our website steadily grows in popularity.
A website for all
This site has been created and made available online so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about the organization and its governance.
We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning that we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored this survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.
Who started this website?
I write under the name John Cedars. Until recently I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I left for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.
I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.
It is my belief that not all is well within the organization, and many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body are not formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.
An unmerciful practice
For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows: “But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man… remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor 5:11,12)
Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians about the disfellowshipping arrangement never called for family members to be torn apart

Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.
There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home. But why should it end there?
Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees: “Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:13, New World Translation)
Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age, are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.
The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.
The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said, “Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.”
These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.
Only human
It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that is truly observant of the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.
The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.
I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.
Warmest regards,
 
new-cedars-signature2

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276 Responses to About JW Survey

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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 25, 2013 at 6:42 am
 
You write, Liam Smith, that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are God’s organisation. This was the claim made when I was a Jehovah’s Witness. Neither then nor since, despite asking countless Jehovah’s Witnesses to provide evidence to back up this claim, I have never come across any evidence. What evidence can you give, Liam Smith? You realise that, without evidence, the entire authority of the Jehovah’s Witnesses bosses collapses, and they are exposed as nothing more than self appointed, self righteous controllers of a global publishing and property corporation. The JW bosses use this authority, based on an unevidenced claim, to exploit an unpaid labour force of magazine distributors who, for no reward, labour to increase the capital value of the WTBTS.
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 Liam Smith says:

 October 25, 2013 at 7:36 am
 
When you ask for evidence mate, well all I can say is my own personal evidence which is personal to me and part of my faith.
 I wasn’t brought up as a witness and my time in the organisation has been frankly pretty tumultuous to the point I could easily walk away but for me what it comes down to is my relationship with God and appreciation for the sacrifice his son made.
 Hope this answers you question pal.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 25, 2013 at 10:33 pm
 
Of course it answers no questions at all. If I were to state that the Universe was created 150 years ago by a pink unicorn named Sidney, then you, Liam Smith would have every right to ask me for evidence to support such a bizarre statement of faith. If I were to reply merely that ‘it is my personal faith and I acknowledge that I owe my life and health to the efforts of Sidney the pink unicorn’, would you be satisfied with that answer?
It is gratifying, at least, that if this is the only justification you can have for your faith in the divine appointment of a bunch of controlling, exploitative old geezers in New York state, then your door knocking evangelising will be even less successful than the average of one new JW recruit every 40 years.
I sincerely hope, Liam Smith, that you do not fritter away the rest of your life as an unpaid mag. distributor for a corrupt property and publishing corporation.
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 Liam Smith says:

 October 25, 2013 at 11:07 pm
 
To correct you his name is pronounced Sydney or Syd as we affectionately refer to him and for your information he also can be seen in beige and not just pink!!!
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 26, 2013 at 6:36 am
 
Interesting that Faithful Witness has great respect for JWs. That respect is not reciprocated. JWs look forward, obsessively, to the day of Armageddon when their Jehovah is set to murder all non Jehovah’s Witnesses for the capital crime of non Kingdom Hall attendance and non distribution of WT mags.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 31, 2013 at 8:17 pm
 
I remember some very nice people at the Kingdom Hall of my childhood. It is tragic that they had been duped into wasting their lives as unpaid mag. distributors for a corrupt money grabbing cult.
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 k.chambes says:

 November 2, 2013 at 6:44 am
 
Each and every day Watchtower elders send known pedophiles to offer unsuspecting families, bible studies. So some children will continue to be abused, some will commit suicide, some families will split. Whilst able to protect their own children, these religious leaders refuse to warn the congregation of the present danger of these “hidden in plain sight” predators, who will cause immense damage to some in the congregation in like manner.
 Delude yourself not: the Watchtower is pro pedophile and so are it’s activities!
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 What is your religion right now? says:

 November 14, 2013 at 4:23 pm
 
What is your religion right now, Mr. Cedar?
If these were the stories, the facts, and opinions about JWs, that Mr. Cedar was a former member of this organization, so what is the religion of Mr. Cedar right now? I just want to know the answer.
Thanks for posting my comments.
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 Cedars says:

 November 15, 2013 at 2:07 am
 
“What is your religion right now, Mr. Cedar?”
I don’t have one. I hope that answers your question.
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 Darlene says:

 December 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm
 
Hi Peter did you know the name JEHOVAH means Lord of Mischief .Please do the research.The proof is out there.There were no Js until the 1600 or 1700s It was OVAH .The proof is in the STRONGS CONCORDANCE BIBLE DICTIONARY 1996 ON OR BEFORE.you will find it shocking.Iknow I did.BLESSINGS ON YOUR JOURNEY FOR THE TRUTH.
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 cecil scott says:

 January 5, 2014 at 8:29 am
 
How many men are on the governing body? Are they all white? Do they go into the field service? What is the latest prediction when the end of this system will happen? By the way, how old is this denomination? When did the name occur? Why did they celebrate Christmas at one time?
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 Excelsior, formerly known as George says:

 January 5, 2014 at 8:43 am
 
Cecil, you have asked some really interesting questions. The one about the Governing Body is answered on this site.
As for the others, maybe a visit to jw facts would help. It’s a great site.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
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 Dr. Cecil Scott says:

 January 7, 2014 at 1:05 pm
 
TO: A Happy Witness of Jehovah…..
What light getting brighter are you talking about? Those whom you refer to as “false religions” have always preached that “the day and the hour, no one knows” referring to the end of the world. Yet you people have predicted the end of the world about 6 times, or a little over 6 times, and yet you claim to be God’s ‘faithful slave.’ You still keep on insinuating/predicting when the end will come. False prophets and a cult.
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 Dr. Cecil Scott says:

 January 7, 2014 at 1:08 pm
 
My questions were all rhetorical/sarcastic. I know the answers to all of them and the answers arent pretty.
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 gheorghe says:

 January 27, 2014 at 12:18 pm
 
Unfortunately, this is the truth. The “organization” is merely a machine, a mammoth without kindness or love for the neighbor…. just words, empty words and contradictions….
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 gheorghe says:

 January 27, 2014 at 12:41 pm
 
to: Mr. Cedar
Did you read what Pastor Russell wrote? (the six volumes, etc.) The JW’s pretend that Russell is their JW founder but the doctrine he taught is so different from JW’s. He was a truly Christian, I noticed from his writings; and he was appreciated in his days. Hundreds of leading papers published his articles…..In those days there was no higher authority over the ecclesia (congregation)….
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 Cedars says:

 January 27, 2014 at 12:51 pm
 
Hello gheorghe
Welcome to JWsurvey! I hope you find it informative.
I have read some of what Russell wrote. Frankly, I find his writings rather tiresome, and just as error-strewn as any Watchtower magazine (although arguably not quite as insidious). If I were to believe everything written by Russell I would be a believer that Christ came invisibly in 1878, that black people will (or should?) turn white during Christ’s millennial reign, and that the Pyramid of Giza is God’s “stone witness” because its internal measurements correspond inch-by-inch with bible chronology.
You are welcome to believe these things if it makes your life more fulfilling but I would rather decline the offer, thanks all the same.
Cedars
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 gheorghe (from Romania) says:

 January 30, 2014 at 12:36 pm
 
You may be a busy man but: I Like your comments, and thanks for reply. What I really appreciated in Russell writings is the principles the Bible laid down: i.e. redemption for ALL not matter what religion are you in – thru Jesus the Savior; election of a special class today (in the evil world of today); and after that ALL others to be resurrected and taught about God – and the joy ALL the people will have when they will understand God and be blessed by Him. The Bible is full of verses detailing these facts. About opinions: Russell had many opinions but he never insisted you believe all of them. You need to think for yourself. That’s the Bible’s way. And I see you are thinking… I would have so many things to discus with you, and people like you, because The Truth is there and we can find IT. Lord bless.
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 Holy Cannoli says:

 February 3, 2014 at 5:05 am
 
To unhappy witness? If you can see how they treat you and the the hypocrisy that exist and the fake love they proclaim why not just walk away. Is there any benefit they give by treating you and your family bad? Where is this Love they talk about? Maybe it is not the truth they proclaim?
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 Holy Cannoli says:

 February 3, 2014 at 5:23 am
 
I have a question for Kevin in his scenario that he gave of the year 2099 and the JW’s being attacked by their neighbors? That is another 85 years into the future and the system is still existing? Doesn’t that totally contradict the 1914 end of gentiles teaching completely and even if you stretch the meaning of GENERATION another 5 times it goes against the number 1 teaching that the JW’s have “prophesied” over the last 75 plus years that the 1014 generation would see the end and the new world would be here? Was that just a joke you were saying Kevin about the year 2099 or has the WT changed their “understanding: again?
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 gheorghe (from Romania) says:

 February 4, 2014 at 11:56 am
 
I would like to answer some questions, (I understand I may) and wish you think about it: first to Cedars and second to “holy cannoli”
1. Rev. 11:10. If you read the whole chapter you can see that the 2 witness and 2 prophets, 2 candlesticks, 2 olives are the same thing and they are the OLD and NEW Testament. These books were kept away from the people for a long time, time when the “Holy Roman Empire” was in charge but the truth they did proclaim (after) did hurt the bad system(s).
 2. It is true, the JW did some bad prophecies about time and they change it from time to time, proving they are wrong. Sometimes you just have to say, I DON’T KNOW, to some questions, and that is noting wrong. We find the answer later in time. The fact is that the gentile times did end in 1914 (you can calculate it from the Bible) but I think there is no other date given in the Scripture later than that. And as a proof is the events which followed: empires divided and even countries still divide. It Is the prophecy about the Image in Dan. (2:35 especially).
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 gheorghe (from Romania) says:

 February 4, 2014 at 11:59 am
 
Oh, and a good link to a way to interpret the symbols of Revelation. And is consistent all the way with other Scriptures: [evangelical link removed]
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 February 4, 2014 at 12:21 pm
 
Hello gheorghe – it would be appreciated if you would refrain from disrespecting this site and its many visitors by posting evangelical links in direct violation of our posting guidelines. Please don’t do it again. Thanks.
Reply
 
 
 
 gheorghe (from Romania) says:

 February 4, 2014 at 12:05 pm
 
I see my first comment (before the one with the link) did not go through…..well, I can not reproduce the same words. will wait to see maybe will appear latter.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 February 5, 2014 at 2:20 am
 
Georghe – All these strange images from Daniel and Revelation, can be, and have been interpreted every which way.
Let us all remember that hose weird hallucinatory visions have absolutely no bearing on anything beyond the politics of the Middle East c. 2 millennia ago. They are definitely not any sort of guide to the future.
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 gheorghe (from Romania) says:

 February 5, 2014 at 12:36 pm
 
to Cedars:
 sorry, did not want to impose, maybe I misunderstood that I can put a link to a 3-rd party website…..And if I understand correctly: you do not believe anymore in God and in Jesus Christ, His Son? Jesus mentioned The Gospel (Evanghelia) and said to tell people about IT. I thought people writing here are Christians and we can exchange thoughts and believes….about what is wrong and right, true or false from the Bible, THE only Authority for us Christians. If that’s not true I will not any more.
to Rowland Nelken: I agree that these words can be interpreted one way or the other, but you have to accept that even Jesus refers to Daniel’s prophecies (Mat. 24:15) and precisely about the future, so they are coming from God. For me this is good enough proof that they are telling the future and you can follow it in the history. And if you find an interpretation which is in harmony with all other Scriptures then you did find the PLAN God has for MAN. Ephes. 1:9 and 3:11, Acts 20:27, Rom. 8:28. God has a PLAN and you (everyone) are in IT. Lord Bless.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 February 5, 2014 at 4:01 pm
 
gheorghe, you assume an awful lot. The nature and tone of this website is obvious from reading our posting guidelines, which you are now required to familiarize yourself with before posting a comment. The guidelines unequivocally mention evangelical links, but I will accept your apology.
Reply
 
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 February 5, 2014 at 1:36 pm
 
It is Jesus’ references to Daniel and Noah which turn me off the guy. I appreciate that some of Jesus’ teachings are quite sound, and even worthy of repetition and observance 2000 years after they were allegedly spoken. As far as my own studies have shown, however, it seems tha Jesus was one of many freelance apocalyptic rabbis in what has come to be known as the first century. Once Paul had established a fringe Jewish sect in Jesus’ name, a whole load of stories grew up about the guy a generation and more after his death. That St. Paul’s sect collected more support amongst Gentiles than Jews, and the Gentiles were none too keen on the Torah, especially circumcision, led to Christianity’s final split with Judaism by the end of the first century. This could well be what much of Revelation is about. Yes, there are Christians of a range of types who contribute to this site, but there are many others too.
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 gheorghe (from Romania) says:

 February 6, 2014 at 12:19 pm
 
ok…. I see. I am a Christian and I believe the Bible is the Word of God. In the end All will be glad to believe, but now not every one can, like Jesus said. Peace be with you all. See you in the Kingdom of Jesus, not long from now, as the events in the world demonstrate that this systems, organizations, are falling apart. But the NECESITY of Man will be the OPORTUNITY of God to help him – in due time.
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 Faithful Witness says:

 March 11, 2014 at 7:00 am
 
1000 IS a small number of voices, compared to the millions that are currently serving Jehovah’s organization. MILLIONS of people who are not allowed to express themselves. Millions of people who remain silent, out of fear of losing their families and everything they have ever known.
What is your point? There are millions of people in this organization, who remain voiceless.
Jesus cared about EVERY sheep. Perhaps someone can explain why those who have been appointed to shepherd the flock today, ignore the cries of the children who are being abused? They are more concerned with protecting the name of their religion (vindicating the name of Jehovah), than they are with caring for those in their charge.
EVERY voice matters. Do you agree with everything the JW’s are preaching and practicing today? Everything?
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 John Nelson says:

 March 14, 2014 at 6:29 pm
 
Why do they lie so much?
 Is it the last days?
 Is it after Armageddon?
 Is it the thousand year reign?
 Are people being resurrected?
 Does Jehovah permit homosexuality?
 Why lie to any?
 If the wages for sin is death why resurrect any to judgements?
 Why torment anyone?
 Why not help all?
 Why lie?
Reply
 
 
 Holy Conolli says:

 April 1, 2014 at 1:40 am
 
Georghe from Romania;
 I just saw your explanation and response. Sorry for late reply.
 You say Gentile times REALLY did end in 1914? What is that Idea based on? If you use the 2520 years that the JWs teach as representing 2520 years and 99% of all scholars and even the WT knows Jerusalem was nor destroyed in 607bce but in 587 BCE it throws the entire Idea out the window! The fact that kingdoms were divided after 1914 does not prove anything in regard to Gentile times. Kingdoms have been divided ever since man was on the earth.
 I used to think that bc of all the deaths and wars in WW! and WW2 that it must be largest amount of death ever? No, it isn’t. Look up Largest deaths in war on Google or Wikipedia and you will see deaths in millions and millions of people over the years and with a much less earth population. You never hear the WT talk about those trouble times bc it doesn’t fit their agenda. The entire Idea that Jesus came “INVISBLY” in 1914 but you can’t see him is not scriptural nor is it reasonable and does not make sense if you read the rest of the scriptures about his coming and his revelation.
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 April 1, 2014 at 1:48 am
 
The history of Islam as well as of Christendom, of which JWdom is but a minor latterday fragment, a late 19th century American Adventist spinoff, is littered with End Times prophets.
They all suffer from the delusion that the Bible (or Koran) is the Word of God and is somehow a guide to the future.
Neither book is. They are both works of the human imagination and can tell us quite alot about the societies that gave rise to their production.
Both, however, are useless as moral guides or predictors of humanity’s future.
Their continued use as humanity’s ultimate guide is tiresome, painful and sometimes murderous. Time those old books were consigned to a museum
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 Fynn says:

 April 14, 2014 at 7:44 am
 
Cedar, I worried about your intend for creating this site. If you think the Governing Body is doing something wrong why not seek help from the body of elders.
Do you think you are challenging the arrangement of Jehovah?
This I think is similar to that of Dathan and Korah of old. They rebeled against the appointed man of Jehovah. – Num. 16.
Why not turn to Jehovah again.
[link removed]
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 Rowland Nelken says:

 April 14, 2014 at 8:12 am
 
Fynn, are you real or a sendup?
How can an organisation like the Watchtower, whose only legacy in their 135 year existence is a string of duff prophecies, a trail of deaths through teir fli flopping edicts on blood transfusion, split families through the shunning diktats, stunted lives through the frowning on education and paedophile protection, courtesy of the 2 witness rule, have any connection to any god that might exist?
JWdom also depends on being able to kid its followers, in the face of all available statistics, that wars, earthquakes and epidemics are on the increase.
It is sites like this one, and they are growing in number, that are making it more difficult for ugly little cults like JWdom that depend on ignorance for their survival, to spread their poisonous message and wreck so many lives.
I hope Fynn, that your defence of the JWs was in jest and that you are joining us in laughing at your little post.
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior says:

 April 14, 2014 at 11:28 am
 
Fynn,
Cedars cannot seek help from a body of Elders. The Elders have been appointed by the very men he is concerned about.
If the Body of Elders found in favour of Cedars, what would happen next? Would they take Cedars’ concerns to the Governing Body? What would be the response of the GB? They would doubtlessly disfellowship the entire body, as they did at Menlo Park.
Aaron had a rod that budded. His sacrifice was accepted. Moses had a column of flame. What do the Governing Body have to PROVE that they are chosen by Christ?
Christ anticipated this conundrum. He asked us to look at the fruitage. Many will claim to follow him, but the proof is in the pudding.
The list of complaints against the GB are long and harrowing:
Cover up of child abuse
Cover up of domestic violence
Rape victims facing a judicial committee to check that they cried out and that they are not guilty of fornication.
If the GB are really God’s chosen people, then how can they allow these base crimes to perpetuate in their religion? What do you think Christ would think of these atrocities?
Mr Cedars is a good man. He writes balanced, well researched articles that have helped many, many people understand fully just what the WTBTS is and what it does. I personally think that Christ would be proud of his service to his fellow humans. He would see his self sacrifice as a noble and humane act, that glorified God. Why don’t you?
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
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 Faithful Witness says:

 April 14, 2014 at 1:45 pm
 
Fynn,
 Can you please provide some biblical evidence that the governing body has been appointed by Christ? I have been unable to find any quotes from Jesus, or any of the prophets, of any divine leadership being appointed at some later time in the future.
I have found prophecies about an EVIL power, taking over the world and fooling many during the times of the end… but where is the evidence that God was going to have an organization or any mortal men in charge of his people who were still alive on earth today?
Please help. I really don’t understand this teaching, and no JW seems to have the answers I seek.
How do you know that the governing body is appointed by Jehovah?
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 Paul Drake says:

 April 24, 2014 at 10:00 am
 
I know a woman who was forced by her husband, an elder in the 50’s, to have an illegal abortion “so as to be better able to serve Jehovah”. She never was mentally right after this. He divorced her under a pretext and married a younger woman. He died in good standing. She died as a disfellowshipped person.
 That’s a reunion I’d like to see.
Reply
 
 chatpal says:

 December 22, 2014 at 6:29 pm
 
if a paul drake is still on this site id like for him to tell us he is ok, otherwise, I believe the paul drake poster ,if he is who i think it was,
 has passed away last week . r.i.p
Reply
 
 
 
 Vincent law says:

 April 29, 2014 at 2:49 pm
 
I have been following your blog for a few years now.
 I have also left the JW organisation.
 It is very clear that the wtbts will say and do whatever it takes to keep group control they have there own agenda and that of there shareholders and partners this is the real problem its capitalistic its not a cooperative or foundation.
Reply
 
 
 trenton crump says:

 May 30, 2014 at 2:43 pm
 
good comeback
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 hels bels says:

 June 12, 2014 at 11:22 am
 
I left the witness cult over 10 years ago. From time to time I googled ex jws, and found some interesting information. A few months ago I googled again – hadn’t done so for a while. I am delighted to see the work that you are doing. Thank you so much for all your hard work.. I have managed to move on with my life, but it never leaves you. I Enjoy your you tube blogs and this website is wonderful. There are many many more trying to leave and this support is invaluable. Well done. Xxx
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 Holy Connoli says:

 June 12, 2014 at 12:52 pm
 
to hels bels
I to left the WT over 15 years ago. This is a great website for folks connected with the WT to express their feelings and concerns for current or former JW’s. One thing I have noticed is some former JW’s that express themselves here on a regular basis seem to get into many debates with some defending the WT and it turns into a verbal war amongst them both.
 I feel if they are coming here thery are coming for a reason and most likely they have had their own doubts and see the WRONGS committed in the WT and Gov body but are to scared to leave something they have been connected with for many years and/or fearful of being DF’d and having family and friends turn their backs on them. Like you said those that have been JW’s or other cults have said that the damage leaves you 100%. Scientologists, Armstrong World wide Church of God, Moonies all say the same thing. I think if we can be more understanding of their situation it would be helpful. If we remember how difficult and hard it was for us to leave and the process we went through to do it. For many of us it took years to break away. My point is debates and arguments don’t produce much positive energy. If we just keep pointing out the Failed teachings and failed prophecies, Flip flop teachings, Child molestation policy, Blood transfusions, generational teachings, and Dictator type control they LORD over the flock that should make the Majority rethink what they are going through everyday. Many people do not want to think on their own so let them be. Their is a huge struggle in the WT today and
 like Communism did 25 years ago fell from its own teachings and corruption.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 June 12, 2014 at 1:08 pm
 
To Hels Bels
I meant to say the damage never leaves you 100% That was a bad typo
 On my part. Sorry about that. Hope you are doing well and enjoying life.
Reply
 
 
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About JW Survey

A message from the founder of JWsurvey.org…
It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.
The Governing Body has yet to express any interest in hearing the views of ordinary witnesses. Their mantra is: “We talk, you listen!”

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!
This website seeks to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that is conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.
The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking. Subsequent surveys promise to attract even more attention as our website steadily grows in popularity.
A website for all
This site has been created and made available online so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about the organization and its governance.
We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning that we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored this survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.
Who started this website?
I write under the name John Cedars. Until recently I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I left for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.
I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.
It is my belief that not all is well within the organization, and many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body are not formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.
An unmerciful practice
For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows: “But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man… remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor 5:11,12)
Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians about the disfellowshipping arrangement never called for family members to be torn apart

Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.
There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home. But why should it end there?
Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees: “Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:13, New World Translation)
Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age, are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.
The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.
The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said, “Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.”
These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.
Only human
It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that is truly observant of the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.
The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.
I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.
Warmest regards,
 
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276 Responses to About JW Survey

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 steve cowton says:

 June 30, 2014 at 12:50 pm
 
is it true as a jw your wife isn’t allowed to give you a bj?
Reply
 
 
 Jalmar says:

 July 29, 2014 at 3:20 am
 
Thanks for your writings if the input I use often in debate with a very rabid “omniscient” JW
I was wondering if you could write a bit about the subject NWT – And GB’s claims: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989250
 Definition: A translation of the Holy Scriptures made​​: directly from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek into modern-day English
 by a committee of anointed witnesses of Jehovah.
Have you ever thought about the fact that GBs theology is not consistent with the “Christian Greek Scriptures” – despite GB’s:
“carefully in conjunction with the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek basic text” –
On the title page of the 1984 NWT?
Moreover there isn’t any “basic texts” = Original Text of any of the languages​​.
You could maybe also write about “the anointed” – and Who anointed them?
Reply
 
 
 Judith Demaestri says:

 August 11, 2014 at 3:58 pm
 
I fully support this site because so far it has stated only the truth as I know it after 62 yrs. in this cult.
Reply
 
 
 Emilia Zayas says:

 October 6, 2014 at 10:28 am
 
GREAT,I LOVED
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 6, 2014 at 5:19 pm
 
When I read your postings, I noticed that you are very critical about the GB and other JW’s putting “spin” into their comments, opinions, positions and such. However, I also notice that your comments and postings, blogs, etc. are very slanted in a negative way, not a neutral one. Therefore, you can and do regularly put your own “spin” on these subjects, especially in a way so as to put a bad light on these people. Doesn’t that make you just as guilty as you say they are?
 You and I both know that anyone can take a bit of statistical information, letters, opinions and end up making them anything you want them to be. I find your website to be one that has a definite goal of putting the JW organization in a bad light and although not directly, drawing people away from the truth of the matter, indirectly, it is apparent that you do NOT want any of your readers to get ANY positive info about the group.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 October 7, 2014 at 12:38 am
 
Hello RJ, welcome to JWsurvey and thank you for commenting. I’m sorry my articles don’t live up to your expectations. However, you must understand that, from my perspective, this is a natural and expected response from someone who has been indoctrinated to think of Watchtower as God’s sole channel of communication with mankind. ANY criticism of Watchtower, however justified, would grate on someone who is under this kind of influence.
With this in mind, allow me to “cut to the chase,” as it were.
Either Watchtower, or the religion it advocates for Jehovah’s Witnesses, is true – or it isn’t. If it is true, then you should be able to answer the “Cedars Challenge” in the video below, and collect your prize (taking this website offline) for doing so. If, however, the Jehovah’s Witness religion ISN’T true, then it is extremely damaging. Why? Because families are being needlessly broken up through shunning for a religion that isn’t true, and people are dying in hospitals through refusing medical treatment for a religion that isn’t true. That’s just two examples, I could give you others.
So, if I am wrong, I look forward to your response to the challenge below…



Reply
 
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 6, 2014 at 8:08 pm
 
Now is your opportunity RJ. Let us hear all the good things about the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
MAybe my personal experience and knowledge is warped and slanted. Being a JW was certainly the worst aspect of my childhood by far. The idea that before the end of the 20th century, God was due to execute, at Armageddon, all the world’s non JWs, a crowd that would include most of my firends and family, and me too, unless I became a good enough JW, gave me nightmares.
As an adult I have discovered more of the achievements of the organisation. They include split families through shunning, deaths through refusal of blood, a string of duff prophecies, doctrinal flip flops galore and protection of paedophiles.
Thus far, as you might gather, RS, I am not very impressed with the JW track record. Maybe you are right. Perhaps my view is warped and one sided. Please enlighten, me, Cedars and others and tell us all the good things that the Watchtower has done and is doing!
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 7, 2014 at 1:23 am
 
@RJ. I have been reading on this site for 9 months now and have never seen any comments from John Cedars that is critical of Jehovah’s Witnesses as a people. He is nothing but sympathetic. His comments and most of the rest of us who comment though are critical of the Governing Body because they are the ones responsible for the cover ups and lies and the enforced shunning for those who would like to get away from this religion in peace. That is the John Cedars that I see. If you can show me that I didn’t waste the 48 years of my 68 years on this earth defending a poisonous cult, I for one am anxious to hear it by you giving us some evidence that God is directing this uninspired, God-directed true prophet as they claim and chose it in 1919 as they claim.
If you are open minded enough, read Don Cameron’s Captives of a Concept or The Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonsson and you will reach the same conclusions as most of us posting on this site. If you are banned from reading these books, ask yourself why????? If you really have the “truth”, the “truth” will stand up to lies……
Reply
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 October 7, 2014 at 3:52 am
 
@RJ. Not to get in a long debate bc WT Apologists have their own agenda.
 I as a former long time Elder who left over18 years ago feel that this site is not a derogatory JW site. This site is a way to look at the WT from an open perspective and asks he logical intelligent questions that we as JW’s or former JW’s or “Approved Associates” or extended family and friends of JW’s have always wanted to ask and always wondered about but were NOT ALLOWED to ask or question bc of the GASTAPO GB and the continual threat of Shunning and being DF’s and cut off from your family, friends and others for “THINKING” out loud. JR. BE honest with yourself. Like we al say and even the WT says, If it is the truth it should be able to hold up to any challenge or questions about their past, present and future right? The truth should have nothing to hide. The WT rewrites their own history. They change things anytime they want to. They flip flop on most teachings. they come up with the strangest bible interpretations of any religion and then change it 1,2,3- years later and no one is supposed to question it?
My wife is still a STAUNCH JW and a pioneer. We get into debates continually as she serves the men in Brooklyn. I continually ask her and even did today. If the Jw’s are right and have the Truth please tell me 1 prophecy that they have predicted out of he many hundreds over the last 100 plus years that have come true? Can you give me just 1? From the king of the North, to 1925, gog of magog, to 1925, 1975, 2000, to the F&D slave, where Jehovah dwells,( one time they believed he had his own private planet? ) Sounds mormonish to me?
Her answer tonight was yes, I can tell you! Ok What I asked. She said 1914!
 Oh man, that opened up a can of worms. She blurted out what she hears. She knows 1914 is not true bc he and I have discussed it before but this time she started saying how it was the first time in history that so many nations got together for a war? So what. Other ward have killed millions more than WW1 of course the WT never brings that historical point up. So this is the bottom line RJ. Thers is not one, I repeat not one clear prophecy or prediction the JW’s can prove they prophesied correctly in over 125 years. I ask you if that is true then
 how can they claim to have the “truth”? this doesn’t even consider their wacko teachings on many other things. Can you provide us with 1 prophecy that came true from the JW’s? Just 1 please.
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 October 7, 2014 at 3:58 am
 
RJ,
I would be delighted to read some “positive info on the group”. It does not make me jump for joy to have to return to this organisation after twenty years to highlight the immoral activities of this so called Christian organisation.
The trouble is, RJ, I can’t find any on JW.org or in the WTBTS’ publications! I find examples of spin, dishonest quoting, omission of pertinent facts and rules that are far from Christian.
I would be very interested in your viewpoint on three issues that I find very important.
 The first is the WTBTS’ child protection policy. I have carried out research on this topic and I have found no protection for children or young people whatsoever. What do you think is best about the WTBTS’s child protection policy?
The second is the non existent protection of women from domestic abuse. Have you read the WTBTS’s position on this? Do you think it is right to encourage a woman to stay in an abusive relationship and not to be able to divorce on this grounds and not be remarried “in the Lord”?
The third is the shunning of Ex JWs by their families. Do you think that this is right? Can you point me to a verse in the Bible where Jesus shunned someone?
Please, RJ, relate your opinion on these very important issues. I am genuinely interested in your point of view.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 7, 2014 at 7:49 am
 
RJ – please note the reaction you have caused. There are several of us waiting to hear something utterly novel. We have studied the history and doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and have failed to find anything positive therein.
It is your duty to help us, unless, of course you feel we deserve an imminent execution for failing to see any positive aspects of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you are a genine believing and practising Jehovah’s Witness you must believe that we genuinely deserve a soon to be delivered Armageddon death penalty at the hands of Jehovah for failure to devote our lives once again to following the edicts of the Governing Body.
Help us JR. It is your duty to us, to yourself, and, of course, to Jehovah.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 7, 2014 at 12:50 pm
 
Come on RJ! Let us hear all the good things about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Enlighten us!
As Cedars says in his vid. no JW has risen to his challenge.
Be the first!
When all of us doubters are convinced that JWdom is true we will, of course, seek reinstatement and dedicate our lives to spreading the JW message in the short time that remains before Armageddon.
We will no longer try and expose the apparently murderous blood ban amd the shunning. We will realise that these are necessary to fulfil Jehovah’s will and to aid us and others in surviving Armageddon.
You have a golden opportunity to enhance your status at your local Kingdom Hall, to improve your image in the eyes of Jehovah and to save us lost sheep from Armageddon execution.
We know the reason for the delay could not possibly be that you lack the evidence for presenting JW TRUTH as true. If it were not true, of course you would not seek to either belong to or defend the Watchtower.
So, come on RJ. A hungry readership (and great rewards) await.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 8, 2014 at 12:39 pm
 
Well RJ, you can now join the long list of JW apologists and defenders who have come on this site, and, when challenged to present evidence for the Governing Body’s extraordinary claims of divine appointment, have disappeared.
Obviously you cannot provide any evidence to even suggest that JW TRUTH is true. It clearly is not. There is no evidence, of course, to connect the JW Governing Body with the Faithful and Discreet Slave of Matthew 24. That is the basis for the entire authority wielded by the JW bosses. The claim, and thus the Gov. Bod’s authority, is utterly bogus.
It would be interesting, however, RJ, to hear exactly what you JW defenders do when faced with the fact that you cannot justify your cruel and ridiculous beliefs. I am presuming, of course that you can understand why the JW central and ruling obsession, of looking forward to that mega orgy of destruction, Jehovah’s execution, at Armageddon, of nigh on 7 billion of your fellow humans, is perverse and obscene in the extreme.
Now you know, RJ, that you can find no evidence to support your horrible beliefs, can you please enlighten us as to what you are going to do? Will you creep back to the Kingdom Hall and desperately try and convince yourself that, despite the total absence of evidence, JW TRUTH is truly truthfully true? Will you shrink from the challenge of remodelling your life, and instead fritter it away as an unpaid mag pusher for a corrupt global publishing and property corporation?
As you must know, apart from making bogus claims, JWdom’s only other credits are the thousands of unnecessary deaths through its blood transfusion ban, its protection of paedophiles through its two witness rule, its split families through shunning, and the stunted lives through the ban on so many social occasions and its discouragement of education once the abilty to read JW mags and parrot their contents has been acquired.
Keep in touch, RJ. We are curious to know how you disappeared guys react, (or at least how you react, as, no doubt everyone behaves differently).
I hope you find a better way of life. You are worth more than to waste your life working as a slave for a bunch of geezers in New York who care nothing about you beyond your ability to enhance their organisation’s capital value.
Reply
 
 
 Pseudonym says:

 October 12, 2014 at 3:29 pm
 
They don’t really get involved too much in that anymore. But I think very recently yes. But I’ve not seen any specification like that anywhere of late. Only specifically speaks of sexual acts by name in relation to pre-marital acts that I’m aware of myself.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 17, 2014 at 10:38 am
 
I have been away from my computer for a bit, so I did not see any of the replies to my comments until today. So, now I would like to comment again about what I was saying:
The blogs of this website’s owner is contrary to what he claims. He says he is not persuading anyone in any direction and the website is simply for information. He also allows such despicable comments such as the one in June by Steve Cowton to remain on his site. Very little was said in response to my statements, just people taking the opportunity to blast their biased voice about a matter that I did not even raise.
Now as to all of you who replied to my original comment. I never once said anything to defend my personal beliefs or to attempt to change anyone’s mind about anything other than to state that this web site appears to be nothing more than a bunch of JW haters spouting out about their personal opinions.
Review every one of the replies to my comment. People just waiting to pounce with their hate, sarcasm, innuendos, name calling and personal attacks on others including me.
I laugh at the notion that those who have a positive view of JW’s disappear and do not return to the blogs on this site because of their fear of being wrong and it being exposed. Read the hate speech directed at me and you will see why they would stay away.
You commenters have no idea who I am, anything about me and yet you gang up on someone whose views differ from yours. You are very quick to degrade and spew hatred, but where is your heart? Do you have anything positive to say that might enlighten a person toward what is true? Or are you simply, hate-filled disgruntled past members who have an axe to grind?
I nave no intention of trying to convince anyone of you whether JWs are right or wrong. That was not my intent when I made my initial comment. I was simply pointing out that the owner of this site appears to be somewhat deceptive in what he says is this site’s purpose.
It appears that this site is a place for the haters and people with strong negative views to spout out about their position. That’s all I was trying to point out. From the replies to my comment, you have all made it plainly evident that this site is effective in quashing opposing views using the silly, unkind and loveless dialog as can read here.
I do not feel it to be my responsibility to try to convince anyone of anything. I do not owe anything to any of you responders, except to extend the love demonstrated by Jesus. I get the strong impression that most of you have a great knowledge of or have preciously been a JW. It’s obvious you have made your choice of which I have no problem with.
I may choose to comment more and on the other hand I may not. It did not take much time to post my original comment and I am not sorry that I did it. However, I am not desiring to get into long debates. I have friends that are JWs who have treated me much better than any of you have here. Also, my time is valuable to me and I desire to spend it on happy, uplifting and fun activities instead of hate talk and bad vibes about people I do not even know.
Finally, I am not in fear of any of you or your views about my friends or about me for that matter. If I do not return it will simply be that I do not desire an extension of what has already appears to be a bunch of bullies ganging up on the new boy in town.
P.S. Have any of you, including the owner of this blog read the posted guidelines? Try, it, you will be enlightened.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 17, 2014 at 11:05 am
 
By the way Mr Cedars,
 I read your response again and you certainly initiated the attacks on me and even accusing me of being “indoctrinated”. You do not know who I am, what I my religious beliefs are, nor what “influence” I am under. Keep with the guidelines of YOUR blog and stick to the point. Try answering the questions I brought up to you instead of violating YOUR guideline of “Religious Neutrality”.
You appear to be anything but neutral. Also, try to calm down Mr. Nelkin, he is obviously so excited to dominate this blog, me and probably others, you risk turning your “survey” and so-called religiously neutral blog into a mouth piece for this very biased and abusive man
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 17, 2014 at 2:53 pm
 
I can only speak for myself, but my childhood was overshadowed by unnecessary fears about Armageddon, due, according to the JWs back then, before the end of the 20th century, executing me, my non JW and friends as well as me if I did not perform as a good enough JW.
I do not want future generations of children to suffer such cruel nonsense and, apart from anything else, this blog serves as a warning to anyone who may be curious about the JWs, those nice polite Christian door knockers, and be beguiled by their tales of an imminent Paradise Earth.
As an adult I have learned more about the JWs. Even after leaving, in my late teens (though my mother stayed in for life) I was filled with doubts and fear, lest there was some truth in JW TRUTH. I spent much time studying both the Bible and the history of the Watchtower, and later, with the internet, discovered the stories of a range of ex JWs.
The more I learn, the worse the JW organisation appears. I had known about the blood deaths and the string of duff prophecies, but the protection of paedophiles and the shunning were news to me.
Practising and believing JWs do sometimes contribute to this and other ex JW sites. WHat is remarkable, RJ, is that not a single one can demonstrate that there is any truth in JW truth, nor can they point to any benefits of belonging. You, RJ, are no different from the others.
Of course, you are entitled to write negative things about me and John Cedars as well as about the blog itself. It would be interesting, however, if you could apprise us of some evidence which might suggest that JW TRUTH is true, or, indeed, that there have been any positive aspects of the Bible Students/ Jehovah’s Witnesses in their 135 year history.
You might also consider why, unlike, say, ex Methodists or ex Quakers, there are so many ex JWs, keen to warn the world about the dangers of getting ensnared by this cult, and campaigning to either get it to totally transform itself, or disappear.
If you feel we are ignorant about the benefits, or even the truth of JW TRUTH. Please enlghten us.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 October 17, 2014 at 3:09 pm
 
I AS A AFORMER LONG TIME ELDER AND assembly OVERSEER AT TIMES Coule see the religion is built on Fear. Fear of dying and/or being destroyed if not loyal to an origination.Fear of Armageddon, Fear of being DF’d. Fear pf losin g your friends and family, fear of not making it in to the new world. Fear, fear fear.
Have you noticed at assemblies/conventions et most of the talks are negative. Most are just depressing about how bad everything is and how bad you will be if you leave the WT? I was getting depressed listening to all the negatives day in and day out. Another note I was noticing that less and less Jesus Christ was being mentioned? It was all using the name Jehovah. In the Christian Scriptures the entire focus is on Jesus and his teachings and his sacrificial death. He being the Savior of mankind. However over time this was mentioned less and less almost to the point of ignoring him and his teachings.
Any religion that is based on Fear is not from God.Christianity is a simple faith but the WT has made it very complicated.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 17, 2014 at 3:12 pm
 
I realise I do not know you, RJ, but I did write, amongst other things, that you are worth more than to be an unpaid mag. pusher for an organisation that cares nothing about you beyond your ability to augment its capital value. That is not hate. Why interpret it as such?
Mine, Cedars’ and others’ posts have been directed not at the members trapped within JWdom, but at the organisation itself.
Thousands have suffered at the hands of the JW organisation. As you appear to be a supporter, RJ, of said org. it is disappointing that, while raging at others’ comments that are directed not at you, but at the organisation you seem to want to defend, you have nothing to say in its favour.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 17, 2014 at 3:36 pm
 
I have just read over the replies to you, RJ, and can see no hate speech, neither from me, Cedars or anyone elase. There is information, certainly, questions and opinions. For someone who dislikes negative diatribes I would have thought the Kingdom Hall is not a suitable place, nor does JW lit. make for suitable reading.
Unless the JWs have changed beyond recognition, both KH lectures and JW lit. is filled with derogatory remarks about all other branches of Christendom as well as other religions and, indeed, all aspects of the world beyond the control of the JW bosses.
ANd the hate is not purely verbal. There is this warning that the entire world not under the control of the Watchtower bosses is so foul that it it will soon meet, at the hands of Jehovah, a terminal blow to its existence in the form of Armageddon.
Although I learned long ago that the JW bosses are utterly phoney and their cliams mean nothing, for those who have been beguiled by their methods, the action which will accompany the hateful words seems real and terrifying. It did to me as a child at the Kingdom Hall.
I suggest you read both JW lit, as well as the comments here, in reply to yours RJ and then decide where lies the hate.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 17, 2014 at 11:58 pm
 
Please, RJ, you have accused me, Cedars and other people who have posted on here of directing hatred at you.
I do not see any. There are plenty of stories about the hateful way some commenters have been treated by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. That includes Cedars himself. For my own part I only suffered, due to my association with the JWs, nightmares and a constant feeling of guilt. That, however, is no reason to heap praise on an organisation. It is, however, a reason to warn others not to get involved.
As I mentioned before, the most glaring examples, in my own experience where JWdom and hatred come together are my memories of talks, Watchtower studies, home book studies and the Theocratic Ministry School; indeed everything associated with the JW experience.
We were warned off everything in the world that was not under the control of the Watchtower bosses. These were all Satanic; so wicked and expendable that they were due to be obliterated, before the end of the 20th century, by Jehovah in his mega orgy of destruction known as Armageddon.
Referring to the world and its billions of fellow humans which were not of that micro minority of baptised and active JWs as fodder for execution is, surely, hate. And this was not a few remarks, as might be found on a blog. This was constant. Three meetings a week at the Kingdom Hall, a home book study as well as in all the required preparatory reading and doorstep preaching.
Why, RJ, do you think it out of order to recount facts about a destructive organisation whose only ‘achievements’ in its 135 year history are a string of duff prophecies, thousands of deaths thriough flip flopping edicts on blood transfusion, split families through shunning, protection of paedophiles through the 2 witness rule and stunted lives through the frowning on education once the ability to read JW lit. and parrot its contents on the doorstep has been acquired?
We know you do not like this blog and you are no fan of Cedars or me. Thank you for making that clear. An answer to the following question, however, would be interesting:
Why do you consider information hate speech?
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 18, 2014 at 12:43 am
 
As I mentioned before, RJ, I see no hate directed against you. There is information in the replies which points out the hate filled speech from Kingdom Hall platforms (all non JWs deserve to be executed) and the hateful behaviour experienced by some commenters at the hands of the JW outfit.
There are also invitations to you, RJ, to enlighten us as to the good things coming from the Watchtower as well as some evidence that JW TRUTH is true.
You have responded to neither invitation. You have simply made unsubstantiated allegations of hate.
My invitation to you, RJ, to tell us some postive achievements of the Watchtower, achievements which most contributors here, including me, appear not to have noticed, still stands.
I cannot speak for Cedars, but I presume his challenge is still open to you. I can offer no prizes for telling us positive info. about the Watchtower, but Cedars’ prize must surely tempt you. If you can demonstrate that JW TRUTH is true, this website which seems to have caused you so much anguish, will disappear.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 18, 2014 at 2:59 am
 
RJ, My challenge is still open to you to read “Captives of a Concept” and “Gentile Times Reconsidered”.
If you are not a Witness now, you should ask for a Bible study and make sure that every single statement that you see in the publication that the Society makes in that publication is backed up by the Bible. You will be amazed at all the blanket statements that the Watchtower makes without any Biblical backing. That is the mistake that all of us made when we studied, whether adult or as children. If you have a Bible study like that, it’s the Society that would be put on the offensive and the teacher will be amazed at how much they were also deceived into thinking that it was the “Truth” when all it was, was just made up “truths”, not substantiated in the Bible at all. You will have your eyes opened up by a “study” like that, believe me.
The bravest thing that I ever did (and all those in the same situation) was to walk away from the meetings and field service, knowing I was going to lose every so-called “friend” I had ever had at the Kingdom hall, both here and in many other congregations. It wasn’t lazy, like the Society would like you to think it was. It was not supporting lies anymore. Our consciences won’t allow for that and neither should yours.
Prove what the Society says is the “Truth”. That’s all we want for you. We don’t want to see you spend your life supporting lies. Nobody is attacking you. We are trying to help you. Read those comments again.
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 Excelsior! says:

 October 18, 2014 at 6:03 am
 
RJ,
How is my comment in any way “hate speech”? I have only written my opinion and asked specific questions of you in a polite manner.
Trying to enlighten the general public to the serious problems in the WTBTS is not hate speech, not is it inspired by hatred.
Trying to enlighten current. JWs about the specific points I raised in my comment is not hate speech either. Where is the hate in my comment, RJ?
I think it far more hateful to do the things I raised, don’t you? To cover up child abuse – hateful. To advise women to stay with an abuseive partner and deny the chance to remarry in the Lord if this is used as a reason to divorce – hateful. To shun family members for simply not believing in the teachings of the WTBTS – hateful.
Please explain how any of my comments are “hate speech”?
Why do you think we are hateful? Why do you think that trying to help people is hateful?
I look forward with great interest your reply and your apology to me for implying in your comment that I am a hateful person.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 18, 2014 at 1:10 pm
 
I wanted to look at the replies as soon as I could because I was accused of staying away out of a fear. Read the latest bunch and they are all still pushing their dislike, disgust, hatred or whatever you want to call it towards JWs. As I have stated, you have all assumed that I am in your words an “indoctrinated” fool of some sort and that I should wake up. Everyone of you keep saying that I am pushing the truthfulness or correctness of JWs. This could be any further away from the actual facts.
I saw this sight and thought that it was one devoted to surveying people on a certain subject. Surveys are designed to be NEUTRAL and simply collect and report on various subjects.
All you people want to do is debate theology with a person who you perceive as being something that I am not. Not one of you have addressed the comments I have made concerning this web site and its blog. All you have done is wanted to spout out about your personal position as it relates to JWs. That is not the topic of which I blogged about and I have no desire in discussing a subject that I am not well versed in.
However, my background does surround statistics and statistical data. This web site’s “survey” is extremely unprofessional, non-scientific and prejudiced, in my opinion. Any one can take a little bit of info and make it whatever they want it to be. Politicians make a living doing this. I have never said even one word defending the beliefs of JWs, either individually or as an organization.
So that people like me are not confused in the future, maybe the domain name should be changed so as to not be so misleading. Mr. Nelken seems to have a lot to say about his position, unfortunately it has been directed to a person who blogged with an entire different SUBJECT and concern.
I have seen many websites that promote a particular philosophy or idea. That’s fine, no problem. I merely suggest in a humble way that you present it in that way and try better to not mislead and/or prejudge the participants. Cedars goes off on some long explanation of what an apostate is and admits he does not even identify himself. What’s wrong with being direct, honest and fair? Especially when you claim to be what this web site claims to be. I suggest, Mr. Nelken that you ask Cedars for a spot on the site and perhaps could call it Nelkens Corner or something. You could have meaningful dialog with people that want to talk about the subjects you want to talk about. Dominating a blog presented on a different subject and filling it with you rhetoric about JWs, “truth” or how your childhood was so bad is the subject for another place, in my opinion.
I am convinced that at this point, no one desires to address the subject that I initiated and frankly I do not want to waste time working on something that I am not qualified to discuss nor have any desire to hear about. It’s that simple.
 No Fear, no worries about me at all. I have not asked my JW friends about this site, but I can only guess that they have heard it all already, so I won’t bother them.
So good bye to all and I can only hope that you have peace.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 18, 2014 at 1:32 pm
 
I would like to reply to you comment by saying that I am not in any position to prove with statistical data that your claims about abuse are right or wrong. Also, I know as a I am an experienced statistician, you take your position based on limited information. It would be absolutely impossible to state your position as being actuarially dependable unless you have actually conducted an exhaustive detailed research on the matter and have gathered information in a scientifically based manner about the subject.
To make claims that you say are definitely factual and then push these poorly conducted surveys, decisions, or whatever you want to call them is in my opinion motivated at least in part by some sort of hatred.
If you got the idea from my comment that I am branding you as a hateful person, and I see where you could, then for that I do apologize. Sometimes people who do not intend to be hateful can say things that appear to be filled with hate, especially when it comes to very emotionally charged issues, such as abuse.
But I do not apologize for my position about this web site being one that is misleading. I am the first person to say that you have the right to your position and beliefs. You may even have had some terrible things happen to you or someone close to you. I get that. However, you say that JWs encourage abuse and have non-existent policies to protect women. You can’t say that with total accuracy. You did say that you cannot find any policy to protect children within the JWs. That does not mean a policy does not exist!!
Now, please do not challenge me to search for one and inform you when I get it. You see, I don’t care about this issue enough to spend my time researching it. Child abuse is a terrible thing, but I do not think that whether JWs have one or not will solve the problem. My expertise is not in this area and so I would bring little to the table in an effort to this worldwide tragedy.
 Let me end by saying that I have empathy for anyone who is a victim of any type of abuse and if this has been something in your personal life, then I can only hope that you can get whatever peace you can at this time.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 18, 2014 at 1:38 pm
 
My last comment was directed specifically to Excelsior.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 18, 2014 at 5:24 pm
 
RJ, you keep bringing up your initial comment and nobody is addressing it? The title of this web site is giving a voice to the silent majority. It isn’t just about a survey. Did you miss that by any chance? I think maybe if you read a bunch of the subjects on the right hand of this web site, you might have more of an idea why we all comment. Unlike you, the people who do comment on this site, do know what they are talking about because we all are either Witnesses now or were. If you notice, some were or are elders.
From what you say, you want us to think that you just happened on this web site and thought it was just a “survey?”
The fact that you don’t want to ask your JW friends about this web site, says a lot too. Why not? Why don’t you want to ask them? I am very curious why not????? You seem to think they know all about it and so what is the point, which is totally against all the rules if they really do.
We pity anybody who is a JW and welcome anybody to come on here and defend the Watchtower. We want to hear some good things if you can think of it but the reason people don’t come back after trying to defend the Watchtower isn’t because they are proved right like what you said but have nothing to defend their side of the story. If they had something to defend the Watchtower, they would come back and show it to us but they don’t come back. We have all the current as well as all the old literature and extensive concordances and indexes so we can prove anything to you and them. That’s why they don’t come back.. They got nothing.
You claim you aren’t a Watchtower apologist but you sure sound like a Watchtower apologist to me. If you don’t care about it, then why are you posting here?
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 18, 2014 at 6:55 pm
 
Well, RJ, that was a load of ‘sound and fury signifying nothing.’ So it seems you are not a JW, and therefore feel no need to defend their beliefs and practices.
You have complained at length about this site having a misleading title and introduction. Your introduction of yourself has certainly misled many of us.
OK, you have some JW friends that you like. You actually wrote that. I can assume, therefore, that that is a fact. If you are not a JW, however, and assuming your JW friends actually believe that JW TRUTH is true, they believe that you, together with all all the ‘apostates’on this site, indeed together with all the billions of the world’s inhabitants that are not believing and practising JWs, are deserving of an imminent Armageddon death penalty.
My life improved immeasurably once I realised that this particular JW TRUTH (never mind all the other ever changing unevidenced ‘TRUTHS’) was cruel controlling nonsense. My childhood fears and nightmares were unnecessary. I wish to warn the world about the horrors that lie behind those neatly dressed, earnest and polite JW door knockers with their bags of mags. This site is one of many where that is possible. That the statistical survey element may not measure up to some standards employed by statisticians is a minor element.
‘Giving a voice to the silent majority’, however, is an excellent mission. I do not know how much you know about JWs. You have complained that we are demanding you be the Watchtower’s defender as many of us assumed you were a JW. You complained about the misleading title of this blog. You seem to have misled many of us into assuming you were a JW. Well, whatever your position, it is a fact that, within the JWs, dialogue is impossible. All communication is top down. THE TRUTH is invented by the guys at the top, the seven ‘divinely appointed’ ‘Faithful and Discreet Slave’ Gov. Bod. chaps, and then disseminated globally via the network of Kingdom Halls. The entire JW world is literally ‘on the same page’ (of the Watchtower) in any one week.
Discussion, dissent, even questioning of these DIVINE TRUTHS, is prohibited. Parroting is the order of the day. Armageddon execution is the threat that prevents any deviation from the New York TRUTH line.
Whether or not, RJ, you approve of deaths through the blood transfusion ban, split families through shunning, unnecessary terror as a result of the string of JW duff prophecies, split families through shunning, protection of paedophiles through the two witness rule and stunted lives through the frowning on higher education, these are the fruits of the 135 year JW ministry.
I do not understand why you object so strongly to a blog where those either still in the JW mental prison and those of us who have escaped, can have an opportunity, denied us in the strictly censored Kingdom Hall environment, to express our feelings about, and exchange information about, the Jehovah’s Witness organisation.
You complained about this blog’s misleading title. Anonymous has enlightened you as to its central purpose. I am not the only one who is utterly mystified as to why you object so strongly to this blog’s existence and purpose. It drove you, as you acknowledge, to fling unsubstantiated allegations of hate directed at you.
I do not doubt that you have good hearted JW friends. I remember some decent folk at my childhood Kingdom Hall. It is tragic that they had been beguiled by the slick mind control marketing style of the Watchtower to fritter their lives away as unpaid mag pushers.
I am glad that you disapprove of child abuse. Protection of paedophiles, however, is institutionalised in the JW world. That is just one of the evils of the organisation.
An explanation as to why you object so strongly to a site where facts about JWs can be revealed would be interesting. I know of no good that has come of the organisation since its foundation. Beyond the fact that it has ensnared some of your friends, JR, you have told us nothing about JWdom.
I hope you no understand why you have been misunderstood, and why your anger at this site’s very existence is a continuing mystery. Perhaps you could enlighten us.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 18, 2014 at 8:29 pm
 
You write alot, RJ, but you explain very little. It appears that you object to a site where the exchange of information and views on a destructive cult is enabled.
And on what grounds are your objections based?
That lies are posted?
No. Your objections are based on your view that the title ‘JW Survey’ is misleading and that you are a very clever actuary/ statistician or something.
You know now that it is a forum which, unlike the stifling Kingdom Hall, where even questions, let alone contrary opinions, are taboo, allows exchange of information and opinions.
So, do you still object to this site’s existence and mission?
If you do object, please explain why.
Remember, that if you are not a Jehovah’s Witness, JWs are told to believe tht you deserve an imminent execution at Armageddon.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 18, 2014 at 10:27 pm
 
Thus site does not only discuss the position of vulnerable women and children in the JWs. It raises all the other issues, every one of them negative, about the JWs.
For all that you have written wordily about the inefficient evidence (as you see it, from the POV of a highly professional , skilled and clever statistician) for the protection of paedos in the JWs, you must have noticed all the other horrors connected with the JWs.
As Anonymous says, whether you wished it or not, you come across as a JW apologist.
This suggests that though you may be a highly qualified, wise and perceptive statistician (or whatever) you are a very lame communicator.
I hope you are satisfied that this blog will continue until such time as Cedars decides to close it, or until some evidence that there is any truth in JW TRUTH is produced.
Until then it provides a very useful forum for the exchange of information about the JWs, whether the evils, of which there is plenty of evidence, or even the benefits. As to the latter no contributor here, including RJ, has ever produced any evidence that there have ever been any benefits to be gained from associating with the JWs.
I hope that one day this forum, and dozens like it, will become redundant. That, however, requires the utter transformation of the JWs, or, better still, the organisation’s elimination.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 18, 2014 at 10:34 pm
 
Correction – This site……
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 18, 2014 at 10:50 pm
 
As an expert statistician, RJ, you may care to assist, with your undoubted expertise, the Watchtower Society in their appeal against the conviction for protecting a child molester. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ELBt4mA7sI
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 October 19, 2014 at 3:43 am
 
RJ,
Thank you for your partial apology.
I have plenty of evidence to satisfy you on the topics I raised.
I am not a hateful person for wanting to protect children, women and all people from the negative policies and practices of the WTBTS.
 I am motivated by love, not hate.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 October 19, 2014 at 5:39 am
 
RJ,
Further to my last comment.
I have re read your comments, and I have a statistical question, for which I would appreciate your expert opinion.
How large a study, and what questions should be asked, to provide statistically valid evidence of the points that I have raised?
Do I need statistical data if I can site Watchtower official policy that verifies my point? I appreciate that I would have to have data showing that the policy was actually enforced.
I have done a little research on statistics, but I am by no means an expert.
I want to effect positive change for the rank and file Jehovah’s Witnesses. I do not want to destroy anything or anyone. I want children, young people and women to be free from abuse, or as free from abuse as is reasonably possible. I want the policies about domestic and child abuse written and enforced by the WTBTS to be in line with best practice as determined by experts in the relevant fields, not a group of well meaning but uninformed religious leaders.
Please be assured, RJ, my motives are not hateful. On the contrary, my love for my neighbour impels me to do what little I can to help resolve these problems amicably and inclusively. This is in line with Jesus’ teachings and I am convinced that all Christians would agree.
I would sincerely like to benefit from your expertise in statistics to improve our effectiveness in resolving the profound issues that are raised on this site.
Please provide me with some advice on improving our statistics, and I am sure that it will prove to be very helpful.
Peace be with you,
Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 19, 2014 at 7:10 am
 
RJ, I was wondering the same thing as Excelsior was wondering. According to most “worldy” statistics, the divorce rate, separation rate, suicide rate and depression rates among Jehovah’s Witnesses are among the highest of any other religion in the U.S. so I am very curious if the Society has ever ran any real statistics on these issues, rather than just issuing blanket statements like the JW’s have the lowest suicide rates, depression rates and are the best religion of keeping families together etc? Does the Society have any real data on these issues or do you just take their word for these statistics that they are so good among JW’s? Also according to “worldly” authorities, JW’s have the 2nd lowest income of any other religion in the U.S. and a lot of times, the reason for divorce is the lack of money. Do you have any real data from the Society as to income levels among JW’s? You seem to know a lot about statistics so maybe you can help us out there.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 October 19, 2014 at 10:04 am
 
A JW friend of mine who was a long time Elder used to tell me he believed in the 100% rule? Which was that if you took 100 local people in your neighborhood and 100 local average JW’s and compared their life styles with Crime, statistics, divorce, infidelity, broken families, divorces, suicides, and all the other problems that fac Society he said he believed the Witness percentage would only be Slightly better than the local 100 people. As an Elder you get to see all these issues in a closer range and he experienced it. I myself as a for Elder for 12-13 years experienced it also. There was tons of infidelity, homosexuality, Thievery, fraud, Adultery,Illegal drug issues,Rape, Abortion, Alcoholism,Suicide and even MURDER more than once. One Sister KILLED her Non JW Husband with a gun during a domestic abuse. She was Df’d and one year later re-instated and everyone at the KH was giving her hugs and saying welcome back bla, bla , bla? One Local Elder in the SF Bay Area In a neighboring Congregation was a serial Rapist and Home invasion Robber and had raped and Robbed at least 10 times before he got caught and sent to jail. All the time while he was doing this he was the Presiding Overseer in the Cong!
I am not making this stuff up. I sat in many of these type of meetings and heard it all. The point here is the JW’s are not much different than the Non JW’s. I will admit they are taught NOT to do these things but in reality they do them maybe not at the rate of Non JW”S but like my Elder friend said the 100% rule does apply here.
 The reason they have the 2nd lowest income of USA religions is bc they are discouraged and even ostracized about getting and education that can make them a decent living. Doing Janitorial work and washing windows only pays so much and that is only of you own the company.
As we all know the JW retention rate is also very low. After a few years of being a JW people begin to see the real JW World and the dictatorship it has become.
Reply
 
 
 Name says:

 October 19, 2014 at 10:23 am
 
http://tv.jw.org/#video/VODIntExp/docid-502013390_E_1_VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/user/johncedars1929
Compare attitude
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 19, 2014 at 11:09 am
 
Well these JW apologists certainly come in a range of varieties. There is, however, one binding feature. Not one can provide any evidence to suggest that there is any truth in JW TRUTH.
They all. however, in their different ways, cast aspersions on this blog. The last one, calling himself, RJ, was a very queer fish indeed. Initially he raged against this blog and appeared to all who read him, to be a JW apologist, indeed a JW himself.
As is now his custom, Cedars presented him with the video challenge, and promised that were evidence produced to demonstrate that JW TRUTH is true, he would take the blog down. As is transparently obvious to anyone not ensnared in the destructive JW mind control machine, there is no such evidence, and none was, of course, produced by RJ.
Unlike nearly all the other apparent or declared JWs, RJ did reappear; not however, with any evidence of the truth of JW TRUTH. He did not even offer, despite having received several requests, to tell us anything of the good things delivered by JWdom in its 135 year history.
He simply wrote a long screed accusing all contributors of spreading hatred, and boasting of his great credentials as a statistician; which credentials, he declared, qualified him to dismiss the ‘Survey’ word in the blog’s title as misleading. He had nothing, of course to say, which called into question the declared function of the blog, namely to give a voice to the silent majority.
He was persuaded, fortunately, to realise that he had not been in receipt of hatred. Any hatred in this blog is directed at the murderous and deceitful JW bosses.
Surprisingly, however, he denied being a JW apologist. This is most puzzling. JWs are ordered, on pain of Armageddon execution, not only to apolgise for their faith, but to spend all their time and resources promoting its wondrous TRUTH.
He had mentioned having some good JW friends. He has now been reminded that, if he is not a JW, his JW friends, indeed the whole global community of JWs, are looking forward to the day of Armageddon when RJ is executed. His very existence, as a non JW, is an impediment to the establishment of the JWs’ fantasy Paradise Earth.
Whether we have heard the last of RJ on this blog I have not a clue. He has, however, whatever he is, whether, JW, non JW, apologist, non apologist, believer or no, done the Watchtower exposure movement sterling service. Any casual reader will note that nobody, despite a whole battery of requests, is able to furnish any evidence of any benefits ever delivered by JWdom and certainly has never provided any evidence for the truth of its ever changing, obscene and ridiculous TRUTHS.
Well done, RJ! Keep up the good work!
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 20, 2014 at 12:32 pm
 
I changed my mind and I decided to respond one more time to explain my comments and hopefully remove doubt as to my intentions. I wrote a long comment and it was evidently rejected because of length, I will break it up into parts.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 20, 2014 at 12:40 pm
 
I read a long comment of yours, RJ. That it was posted and read means it was not rejected.
Certainly your attitude to the JWs is not clear. No one seems to know whether you are or are not a JW or a JW apologist. That is nothing to do with length and everyhting to do with your ambiguity.
All you have made clear thus far, though subsequent comments may enlighten us on other matters, is that you do not like this blog and you rate yourself highly as a statistician.
Reply
 
 
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About JW Survey

A message from the founder of JWsurvey.org…
It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.
The Governing Body has yet to express any interest in hearing the views of ordinary witnesses. Their mantra is: “We talk, you listen!”

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!
This website seeks to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that is conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.
The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking. Subsequent surveys promise to attract even more attention as our website steadily grows in popularity.
A website for all
This site has been created and made available online so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about the organization and its governance.
We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning that we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored this survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.
Who started this website?
I write under the name John Cedars. Until recently I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I left for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.
I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.
It is my belief that not all is well within the organization, and many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body are not formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.
An unmerciful practice
For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows: “But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man… remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor 5:11,12)
Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians about the disfellowshipping arrangement never called for family members to be torn apart

Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.
There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home. But why should it end there?
Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees: “Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:13, New World Translation)
Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age, are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.
The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.
The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said, “Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.”
These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.
Only human
It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that is truly observant of the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.
The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.
I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.
Warmest regards,
 
new-cedars-signature2

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276 Responses to About JW Survey

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 RJ says:

 October 20, 2014 at 12:52 pm
 
I have an extensive background in the sciences of math, but directly in the application of data for use in making various predictions and assumptions, using various mathematical sciences, including the Law of Large Numbers.
Data gathered from various sources, such as official statistical records, surveys, polls, past events, etc. can be used to make some assumptions and be quite accurate, although not exact in a literal sense. This allows the weatherman to predict the future, insurance companies to predict death (mortality tables), pollsters to predicted the outcome of an election, etc. In order for the results of the collection of date to be reliable, there are definite requirements that must be met in order for the conclusions (predictions) to be accurate. The are:
 1. An adequate amount of absolute accurate must be used to give the findings credibility
 2. The integrity of the collected data must be verifiable. If the data used is not accurate, then the results are tainted and cannot be used
 3. The conclusions reached in regard to the project must come directly from the results of the information gathered.
I will address these individually.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:05 pm
 
1. The Law of Large Numbers, a mathematical science requires an adequate sampling of data. In other words, the amount of data required in a sampling is in direct proportion to the size of the entire. The larger the entire group, the larger the sampling must be.
Now, lets look at the survey by Cedars that I took. As I understand it, approx. 3-4,000 responses have been measured. It make it a bit easier, let’s just say that it is actually 10,000. If the total pool is the entire earth( internet is almost everywhere) that’s one thing. Let’s assume that the pool is just one country, say the U.S.
Here are the numbers:
 if worldwide 0.000001428% responded
 if just U..S 0.00003125% responded
In either of the above cases, the sampling(homogeneous units) a such a minute amount in relation to the larger pool that the results cannot be relied upon from a scientific standpoint. Therefore, because the data is so small, the conclusions arrived at cannot be relied upon.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:18 pm
 
I am sure an essay on the predictive value of statistics will be very interesting. I have no idea, however, what on earth it has to do with this blog.
Has anyone here made any predictions based on a small and utterly random sample of data?
Has anyone here made claims for the value of statistics based on data of negligible volume and gathered with no regard to method or sampling?
If they have I have missed it. This appears to me simply to be a forum where those who, either by direct experience or other means of getting to know the Jehovah’s Witnesses, can share information and express their views.
I have never read any claims by anyone that the contributors are representatitve in age, country, rank or depth of involvement in the JW business.
To those who know anything at all about the JW organisation there are only 7 individuals out of 8 million members who have a voice. The title of this blog explains that it is a place where the majority can express their opinions.
That every opinion expressed here about the JW business is negative may well be coincidence. It does, however, seem remarkable, that even those contributors who claim to be active JW members have not, so far as I am aware, described any positive achievements of the Watchtower outfit in its 135 year history. Despite repeated invitations none has presented a jot of evidence to suggest that JW TRUTH might be true.
A series of essays on the predictive value of statistics and the validity of data may well be very interesting and enlightening. So, also, would an illustrated talk on sunspots, breeding Persian cats or making vegetable curry.
None, however, would bear much relevance to the exchange of information and experiences on the misery making JW cult.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:19 pm
 
Next, the data must be accurate in the literal sense. If the data is not verifiable and from a varied source in a scientific way, then it is not reliable. For example, just because I say it, that doesn’t make it fact. Also, if I poll 100,000 people and ask them if Jesus Christ is our savior, and the mast majority respond negatively, it is of no value when we find out that the poll was conducted in a country where most people are Muslim.
When I apply this requirement to the survey on this website, here is the problem.
 Can the responses be verified? Did any people respond more that once, simply using a different email address? From what group of individuals was the survey taken? Did the responders answer honestly and in an accurate manner? The answers to these questions are not known in a definite way. Therefore, they cannot be relied upon from my viewpoint.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:23 pm
 
RJ. Has Cedars made any claims that this survey has scientific validity?
I have never read any such claim. If he has please enlighten us.
If he has not, your remarks are an irrelevance.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:36 pm
 
It may well be that the bulk of 8 million JWs worldwide actually believe that JW TRUTH, in all its mutations and flip flops is TRULY TRUTHFUL TRUE TRUTH.
They may well believe that the 7 Gov. Bod. members are God’s exclusive earthly reps. and that the bulk of the world’s population, who do not live their lives according to their every diktat, are indeed controlled by Satan and fully deserve an imminent execution.
If that is the case, then this site, along with the growing number of sites which tell the truth about JW TRUTH can only be a good thing.
Those of us who have left, and there is a growing number, feel strongly enough about the horrors of JWdom to campaign to expose the organisation, and hopefully, to get it transformed or eliminated.
The handful of believing JWs who have contributed here presumably believe this obscene nonsense. None, however, has supplied any evidence to support this bizarre and ghastly contention.
Of course, pro and anti, we who have written here are but a small and random sample, and nobody has made any claims to the contrary.
Do you imagine, RJ, that an essay on statistics is a substitute for your persistent failure to answer questions? Do you imagine, RJ, that an essay on statistics is a substitute for being utterly unclear in explaining your position regarding the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:43 pm
 
Finally, assumptions and conclusions must be directly as a result of the results of the study.
For example, let’s say I start my own church and I get 5 members in the first year. Then at the end of the second year I now have 100 members. That is a fantastic increase, perhaps making my new church the fastest growing church in the world! And that may be true in once sense. Now, as a result of my data, I conclude that my church has what you folks on this blog refer to as the “truth” and my church is the true church. You would say that I must be some kind of a nut to assert such conclusions.
Well, I have read conclusions and opinions from many on this blog that I think fit in this same category.
Read them. JW are the leaders in the US in divorce, separation, suicide, depression, etc. You say they are among the lowest in the US in income. Where’s the data?
Divorce and separation statistics do not include specific religion info.
 Suicide numbers are determined by death certificates, which do not list religious affiliation.
 Income reports are not based on religion
 Even census reports are vague when it comes to religious connections
 HIPPA laws are so restrictive, it would be impossible to link depression (a medical condition) to a specific religion.
Cedars gives me the impression that the board of directors of the JWs (GB as you refer to them) do not reply to his submitted results because of a fear of the truth or something. In the real world, there is not a statistics expert, mathematics scientist that would take value in Cedar’s survey from a scientific view let alone a logical one , so why would the JW’s hierarchy?
Also, financial stability, growth and/or any other financial data cannot be derived by the statistics presented on this web site concerning the number of magazines printed and the frequency or size of such. The first year student in a financial class in high school knows that a P&L and balance sheet over a period of time is the tool to determine financial strength.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:49 pm
 
Why areyou so keen to set up this straw man, RJ, of a rigourous and fool proof survey?
No such claim has been made.
All you are doing is writing the sort of stuff on stats that is common knowledge to us lay folk.
OK, we know you are proud of your pedigree in statistics. You have trumpeted it. Congratulations on getting to know the basics of this subject and sharing some basic principles on here. Do you grow roses? Breed goldfish? Race stock cars?
If you do we’d love to know.
What, however, would be even more interesting would be for you to explain your involvement, if any, with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and, if you approve of the organisation, whether you can enlighten us as to any of its benefits.
Most contributors on here, and we do not claim to be a representative sample of anything; we are a random bunch; know only of horrible and negative things about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some of your earlier posts suggested you did not like reading negative things about the JWS.
You have been asked repeatedly to tell us of anything positive about the JWs, but you have declined.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:50 pm
 
As I attempt to explain myself, here goes Rowland Nelken again, pushing the same old sarcasm, accusations, condescending talk about me as a person.
Don’t you get it Rowland? The tab I clicked on is labeled “About JWsurvey”. I responded to tell what I think about JW Survey. All you want it to be about is you, your bad life experiences and a debate about JWs.
You say you do not see the people here on this blog and the website itself voicing conclusions that are at this time opinions and not established fact?
You make all types of challenges to me, knowing that I have already told you I will not discuss things that are above my knowledge level.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 20, 2014 at 1:56 pm
 
What wonderful modesty, RJ!
You will not explain things that are above your knowledge level.
So you do not know whether you are or were a Jehovah’s Witness.
You do not know whether there are benefits that have resulted, for anyone anywhere, during the 135 year ministry of the JWs.
You do not know whether you are an apologist for the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
You do not know of any evidence which might suggest that JW TRUTH is true.
How very peculiar!
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 20, 2014 at 2:05 pm
 
R.J. I don’t know if you know much about our religion but none of us are allowed to converse with each other on any of the questions or doubts that we may have in this religion, that are in Cedar’s survey. If we were to start asking each other those questions, even within our own families, we’d be labeled apostates and will be disfellowshipped or shut up permanently from being able to talk to our friends in any of the congregations and even our own families. That is the point for this web site.
Lloyd set it up so that we could converse with each other so that we’d know that we are not the only ones who have certain doubts about the Organization. Until I found this website, I thought I was all alone in my pain and almost suicidal because of what this religion has done to me and I had absolutely nobody to talk to. This “survey” has literally saved my life.
If you delve more into the intent of Cedar’s website, you will see what it’s really all about. As a matter of fact, if the Society would send out surveys to see how the silent majority really feel about this religion, they’d have their eyes opened to the fact that what is keeping the “silent” majority of us entrapped in this religion is the fear of Armageddon and the guilt trip placed on all Witnesses that the whole world of mankind will die unless we get out there and preach. Maybe that’s why you will never see any surveys from the Society and in fact, you won’t ever see any of the Governing Body even answering any questions from the rank and file and especially of those who have disassociated themselves. Are they afraid of what they’d see in any surveys? I think so.
Also, what keeps Witnesses from using their brains to test that they really do have the truth, is that if they should test that they are in the “truth”, they are telling the Organization that they no longer have faith that they (Governing Body) are God’s chosen mouthpiece and anyone calling into question the Society’s claim, will be called before a committee for apostasy.
We are not allowed to “test” that we have the true religion. We just have to take the Society’s word for it. Nobody should ever be afraid to test that they have the right religion.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 20, 2014 at 2:12 pm
 
When it comes to hate, simply read the posts from the bloggers here. Hate does not have to be toward individuals to be hate. It can be hatred for a group, an organization, even a thought. Hatred is commonly displayed via sarcasm, demeaning statements, condescending talk and the like. Rowland Nelken is a shining example of this, simply read Rowland’s comments. He/she is so wrapped up in trying to dominant me with his/her tongue, belittle me when I try to share info I DO know about and advance his/her opinion that he/she cannot allow him/herself to look at this site through the eyes of a person who is not marching in step with his/her ideology. I confidently say that if I was qualified to debate the merits of JWism with you, I would not. You are much too abusive of a person for me to deal with on an adult level.
You have accused me of being a JW, a JW apologist, arrogant, the list of personal attacks go on. When in reality, you do no know me from Adam. However, in your words old “geezers” should not be followed. I am proud to be what you call an old “geezer” in that I have been alive for quite a while. If you are a male, you too are either an old “geezer” or working every day to become one in time. By your abuses to me personally here, perhaps even a “bitter old geezer”. That is sad.
Show your true self more evident. Reply to this last message of mine and lay it on as thick as what makes you think enhances your image amongst your peers here on this blog. God forbid any of them disagree with you.
Reply
 
 
 RJ says:

 October 20, 2014 at 2:54 pm
 
P.S. I didn’t see the comment from anonymous until I posted the last comment. So this one IS definitely my last.
Anonymous, read your last post to me very closely. Your complaint about JWs is I am sure from your heart. Read what type of person Rowland, a major contributor since I first commented, is. I think you will see exactly what you claim about the JW organization. Rowland thinks there is no other viable view, Rowland attacks when something contrary to Rowland’s views are expressed, Rowland belittles, verbally bashes with sarcasm and apparently has no respect for a doubter. Rowland refuses to listen to the talk of someone else when it disagrees with him/her. This is not heresay or opinion, it comes from Rowland’s mouth directly.
Finally, Rowland, in my opinion would NOT be the source of relief from what you say is your current situation, because Rowland has shown me he/she to be exactly what you say has made you suicidal.
Read Rowland’s abusive comments and such and ask yourself if that is the type of person you would want as an advisor or mentor. If your answer is yes, then you have arrived. If not, stay away from that person and any who are similar.
Read Rowland’s response to this and he/she will prove once more what I say is true.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 20, 2014 at 3:35 pm
 
Hi R.J. I too am old. I married a JW man who was an elder and used me as his personal punching bag for the first 15 years of our marriage until my oldest daughter was now old enough to be a “witness” to his abuse. When I finally did get up the courage to report his abuse it was when I was 8 months pregnant with my 2nd baby and he punched me in the stomach with his fist, I didn’t get a listening ear even then. The other elder told me that it was understood because of all the pressure “HE” was going through because of his job of being an elder.
I could write a book about the abuse that I have had to live through because of this religion. If you know anything about this religion, a woman is not free to go to the elders and get a listening ear if the husband is an elder or if you don’t have witnesses. It’s a man’s world in the religion and if a woman wants to get a divorce, she will be labeled and shunned. I am not alone. Men also suffer I am sure and I assume that Rowland has his own story to tell. When you are in this religion, you can have a drunkard for a husband, an adulterer for a husband, an abuser for a husband and nobody is allowed to tell the others in the congregation or even family members how you have suffered. You are not even allowed to tell the police about your abuse. You are not allowed to confide in family members if you are in this religion. That is the way it is set up.
To say that we all have our own stories is a given when we come onto Lloyd’s web site. It has been a life-saver for all of us, I am sure. We have all been led to believe when we became a Witness that it was a loving and Godly organization but when you become one, you will quickly see that it’s run by 8 men in New York and anything BUT Godly. Everyone who is a true believer equate the 8 men in New York as Jehovah God. They won’t admit it, but it’s true. You can try and talk to them that it’s not true that they equate the Organization as Jehovah, but they have been brainwashed and it’s like talking to a brick wall to get anybody to see that.
This web site helps us all who come on here to see that we aren’t alone and it’s therapy for us, since we are also not allowed to even seek professional help because as the elder’s secret book says, that if we seek professional help, we can’t divulge anything that is confidential, ie. abuse.
Do you understand why Rowland could be bitter and overly sensitive to a Watchtower apologist? I sure can. That is the situation you need to take into account when you might perceive a comment as against you. It isn’t against you as a person. It’s against anybody who will defend the indefensible (the lying organization known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society). That is why we are always asking people if they want to defend the Society, please come forward with something that can make us feel that we didn’t waste our lives on it. We welcome that. We don’t hate anybody who can do that. We’d be eternally grateful if you could do that.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 October 20, 2014 at 4:28 pm
 
I have been following Rowland and RJ conversations with interest. IN my opinion it is time to let it go for both. The conversations are both going negative and have no purpose anymore between the 2 of you.. They have just turned into a spitting match now. However, Rowland asked some simple questions of RJ that he just doesn’t want to answer about his affiliation with the JW’s etc. RJ seemed to get away from the point here and go in the direction of a scientific survey etc. All this site does is take the surveys that come in an d most are from JW’s or former JW’s.Rj His his reasons for not wanting to disclose his affiliation with JW’s so just let it be. If he wants to or does not want to support the WT that is his choice. We who were or are JW’s had very good reasons for leaving when we did. I agree with Rowland on his life experiences in the WT Org and many are similar to my own and many other current and former JW’s. As an Elder for many years and an Assembly coordinator at times and popular guest speaker I know what Rowland is saying is true for many. RJ, one point you brought out in your comments about Hate and your explanation o fit is very true for the WT organization itself.
For example Hatred for a group is shown through Sarcasm, Demeaning Speech,
 demeaning statements, demeaning talks, hatred for a group etc. If we are honest with ourselves these are the very traits and speech the WT and GB teach and hold for all other religions, Calling them the Harlot, Babylon the great,
 All under the influence of Satan the devil. They also hold the same teachings and hatred towards ANY one who leaves the organization and decides through their own free will or on things they have experienced and learned AFTER becoming a JW that they no longer want to be a JW they call them “MENTALLY Diseased” or followers of Satan or other negative hurtful names and they attempt to turn entire families, parents, and friends against them for making a free will decision. Their teaching like this is a built in propaganda machine intended to have the flock be in fear of ever leaving. It isn’t based on any love they have for the flock. In all honesty RJ I am sure you have to agree that the what the WT does in these teachings qualifies to your definition of hate?
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 20, 2014 at 7:35 pm
 
Why is it that when JWs (and RJ too, for all that he/she will not answer a simple question about his or her relationship with the JWs) are faced with some basic information about the Watchtower and asked some simple questions they accuse the questioner and bringer of information of ‘hate’?
This seems to be typical. I find it ironic, that though, I wish JWs the world over a life of freedom from the negative and destructive control of the Watchtower, and thus the chance of a fulfilled life, believing JWs, on the other hand, wish me a violent death at Armageddon along with the bulk of the world’s population.
The WT’s lit. and talks are filled with hatred towards the entire world beyond the control of the Gov. Bod. Those who are successfully persuaded to believe and preach the JWs’ message of hate, seem also conditioned to accuse of hatred one who wishes them the joys of the fresh air of freedom.
This is very odd.
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 21, 2014 at 12:34 am
 
I read no abuse in my comments, RJ. I read only unanswered questions. In the JW world asking questions of ‘God’s Organisation’ is considered abusive.
Is this, RJ, where your misunderstanding and misconceptions arise?
If you are a JW, RJ, I wish you freedom from the malign and destructive clutches of the Watchtower bosses.
What attitude you might take to life thereafter I have no idea. It is not my affair, and on this thread, contrary to your misconceptions, I have not advocated any theological view, still less belittled those of others. (Save, of course, those of self styled JW defenders, who, when asked to substantiate their defence, have never offered anything save unsubsatnatiated accusations of hate).
Best wishes, RJ, and, if you are a JW, here’s to your escape!
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 21, 2014 at 2:03 am
 
Hi Rowland. I think some have more cognitive dissonance and are harder to convince than others. Yesterday I was telling my husband (a born in) about how I don’t care if somebody from the Hall won’t listen to me and they want to believe in the Society, that’s their choice but what bothers me the most is, is the Society taking advantage of the brothers and sisters. I brought up how deceitful that was for the elders to read only the first page of that 4 page letter to the congregations on how the Society wasn’t making the congregations pay back their loans but then a few weeks later, the same elders were to tell (not ask) the congregation how they were going to send the Society the same amount of money every month anyway (not to read the next 3 pages that the elders had in that letter). I told my husband it was a scheme to defraud the congregations out of their money, especially if the loan had already been paid off (ours was). All he could say to me in his come back was “I know how much you care about money” and then he points to his belly and says back to me “I am not going hungry”. I accused him of being programmed and of course he’s not programmed and it’s not a cult. They can’t think. It’s as simple as that.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 21, 2014 at 2:28 am
 
and Rowland to add to my last comment……Before I “woke” up, nobody could have reasoned with me either. I had to get to the bottom, to reach out for some help and that’s when I started looking at so-called “apostate” stuff on the internet. So, right now, I am glad it had to get that bad for me, or I’d still be in that depressing religion.
Last night I was watching a youtube video on how a Mormon Bishop woke up from that religion and it was when he finally thought about what Satan told Eve that she’d be like God if she ate the fruit. It was a simple little thing like that. I remember arguing with my husband and he said something like our religion is the only one that has sayings of everlasting life (quoting the Bible) and I said yes, but that’s what Satan told Eve, that she’d never die. He looked at me funny. It didn’t work on him like that guy from the Mormon religion but at least he stopped talking and thought about it for a moment.
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 October 21, 2014 at 4:01 am
 
RJ,
I thank you for attempting to answer my questions on statistics. Your replies were enlightening and I thank you for them.
However, you did not answer my second question, which is a pity, as it was the one I really wanted an answer to.
In the absence of your input, here is my opinion on this site and the survey element.
Candace Conti has been awarded $28 million for the abuse she suffered whilst a JW. You can look this case up, including all the court documents, RJ. We have all the letters to Elders, we have the entire Shepherding the Flock of God book, which is issued to elders only, and is not to be shown to rank and file members. This book has the child protection policy in it. It is plain as day that the child protection policy of the WTBTS is not fit for purpose. We also have numerous other cases that prove this point. Do we have statistics to prove that the child protection policy is not fit for purpose that match your criteria, RJ? No we don’t. In my opinion, we do not need statistics to prove this. Do you agree?
This site’s survey is for information only. It does not describe itself as anything but a chance for JWs and ex JWs to express their opinions on topics and questions set by Lloyd. This survey is then sent to the GB for their perusal.
 Lloyd does not have the infrastructure or the ability (he is viewed as an apostate and he would be shunned and is shunned by his family) to survey all JWs. I’m sure that he would be delighted to have that opportunity! So, his sample size is a small percentage of all JWs. This does not negate its usefulness. It can still aid the GB to understand the concerns of that particular sample group.
RJ, the three points I originally raised with you are facts. The child protection policy is not fit for purpose. Women are not given protection from domestic abuse and are advised to stay with their abusive partner. People who leave or are removed from the JW religion are shunned. These are statements of fact, RJ.
There is evidence to back up all three of the above statements, whether large statistical studies back these up or not.
I hope that you will undertake your own personal research on these topics, RJ. Your JW friends may not even realise that these things are going on in their church. How do you feel about that? Are you going to help your JW friends know what is going on in their church, RJ?
Please, RJ, do your research. There is evidence for all of the problems I raised in my initial response to your first comment.
Finally, I would like to answer your first point. I do not think that this site is biased. If it were, then it would not direct people to read the WT’s publications for themselves, would it? It would not provide the chance for sincere JWs to comment here, would it?
I hope that you will conduct your own research and that you will contribute your expertise to helping children, young people, women and all the rank and file of the JW religion to fully understand what is really going on.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 October 21, 2014 at 4:13 am
 
anonymous,
Dear lady, I am so sorry for the abuse you suffered from your “Christian husband”. It makes me sick to my stomach that any human being could be so cruel and violent, especially to a pregnant woman. I am humbled by your strength and I wish you peace and comfort from your pain and suffering at the hands of this terrible religion.
We are all trying, in our own ways, to bring an end to this disgusting abuse of women in the WTBTS. Your courageous story has made me even more determined to help end this domestic abuse in the WTBTS. Its advice to women suffering this unspeakable crime is disgusting! The bar on remarrying “in the Lord” if a divorce is obtained because of this disgusting abuse if the abuser has not confessed adultery is revolting! It is not in any way Christian.
You have my deep and sincere respect, anonymous. It takes real courage and compassion to leave a cult at your stage in life, and after all the sacrifices you have made for it. You are an excellent example to us all, dear lady.
Peace be with you
 Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 21, 2014 at 4:30 am
 
Thanks for all your comments, guys. The more I read of the comments of other people’s JW experience, and this site provides an excellent opportunity, the more I realise how I got off relatively lightly.
Only my mother was a committed JW, and with my sister, I ran away from her to our gran’s as mum was utterly neglectful. So fixated was she on the JW New World fantasy, that she thought it not worth while, in terms of home making or childcare, to ‘patch up the old world’. Was that her phrase or did she pick it up at the Kingdom Hall I wonder.
For all that it was a God delivered absolute TRUTH when I was achild, readers here may be surprised to learn that Armageddon did not occur before the end of the 20th century. With my mind rid of JW misery nonsense by my twenties I have been free to live a fairly fulfilled life.
My detestation of the JWs, if ever expressed to non JWs in pre internet days, met with bafflement. I had begun to wonder whether the problem was with me. It is this site, and dozens, if not hundreds like it, all over the internet, reassure me that I am not alone. It was not me, but something rotten at the heart of JWdom.
Is it merely coincidence that it is not merely this site where JWs and sympathisers have nothing positive to tell about the achievements of JWdom in its 135 year history? No JW, ever, anywhere, has provided such information, and certainly no JW has been able to furnish evidence that there might be any truth in JW TRUTH.
Would a statistically valid and wide ranging survey come up with any positives or any evidence?
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 October 21, 2014 at 4:35 am
 
RJ,
On re reading your comments I spotted an error. You compare the total who have taken the Survey on JW Survey WITH THE POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE USA.
The whole population of the USA are not JWs.
You should compare the sample size to the total number of JWs worldwide, which is around 7 to 8 million.
Would you like to re-run your numbers with this correction? I’m sure the figures will look a lot more like a decent sample size now.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 October 21, 2014 at 4:42 am
 
Thank you for that Excelsior. It has not been easy and I don’t wish that life on any other person. I want the Watchtower to come crashing down so as to save others from the pain that so many of us have had to go through and are still going through. It doesn’t deserve life. I hope to live long enough to see it.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 21, 2014 at 5:23 am
 
What a great observation! “Many who are alive today, will never die!” I have heard those very words coming from the podium at the Kingdom Hall, and from my mother. I was never a JW.
The every day JW has very little hope to hang onto, so they must cling to this one belief, and somehow find comfort in the fact that the majority of their loved ones are going to be destroyed… Very soon.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 October 21, 2014 at 5:59 am
 
I wanted to add that I have followed this conversation with great interest, although I admit that I find myself skimming over the lessons on statistics and accusations of hateful speech. It sounds like RJ is on a personal mission of some type. I hope you are able to find some peace.
If it is statistics about the Watchtower that you are looking for, I congratulate you for looking at other opinions and viewpoints. Any JW will tell you that you are NOT to listen to what anyone says about them. They will tell you to, “Go to the source!” (Do you think the JW is going to give you any negative opinion of the Society they have dedicated their lives to, even if they personally have doubts about the men they serve? Not without repercussions… Therefore this website has provided a way for these wounded and frightened people to have a small outlet to voice their concerns, even if it is only to one another.)
Kudos to you, RJ, for checking their references and visiting this site. There are several forums on the internet, filled with people who can tell you the truth about the “Truth.” I hope you will continue your research and evidence gathering.
There are many wounded people who visit here, and all deserve compassion.
Thank you all for sharing your experiences. As has been said many times, it helps to know that we are not alone. This religion has infiltrated our family, and has now ripped my family in half.
My feelings about this site (about jwsurvey) are of sheer gratitude. A lot of effort goes into managing a website like this one, and from my viewpoint, it seems that Cedars does a pretty good job at keeping the volume at a dull roar.
I have never been a JW, but sincerely considered it. I have read some recent articles from their magazines, and their proclamations and claims are very dynamic indeed. Their warnings and instructions to the JW people, are alarming to an intelligent reader who is standing outside the tower, simply trying to promote peace within their own family.
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 October 21, 2014 at 7:57 am
 
anonymous,
I hope that you get your wish, dear lady. I shall do all I can to make it so.
Peace be with you,
Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 Rowland Nelken says:

 October 21, 2014 at 8:18 am
 
The Pew Research Centre is staffed by professionals. Their JW survey confirmed the low level of education, the high level of dropouts and the relative instability of marriage within JWdom. http://freeminds.org/psych/pew_survey.htm
Reply
 
 
 Cedars says:

 October 31, 2014 at 12:17 am
 
RJ – “In the real world, there is not a statistics expert, mathematics scientist that would take value in Cedar’s survey from a scientific view let alone a logical one , so why would the JW’s hierarchy?”
If the simple opportunity for current and Ex JWs to voice their opinion in a survey format doesn’t thrill you, you will be pleased to know that this website has attracted the interests of a University that will be partnering with us to gather meaningful data on shunning. More information will soon follow. Will you be helping us spread the word, so that as many as possible can take part and firm conclusions can be drawn, whatever those may be?
Reply
 
 
 Rene Hader says:

 November 8, 2014 at 9:00 am
 
Thank you John for being a voice for us all. I found you while searching the internet yesterday for support and more information as I am about to turn yet another corner in my non-witness life journey. I appreciate your style of presentation as it is both kind as well as bold. It’s just what I’ve been waiting for. I look forward to being a part of this amazing circle of great people who simply want to live their lives in love and be happy. Good luck and all the best to you, I’m here to join in and help make a difference right along with you…
Reply
 
 
 William Draper says:

 November 16, 2014 at 9:20 pm
 
I have one of the very first books published, that claimed that made the claim that end would be many years ago , I was very impressed by it’s sincerity and depth of knowledge of scripture , but it very wrong about some things .
Reply
 
 
 Holy Conolli says:

 November 17, 2014 at 1:56 am
 
William. I also have many , many early books and writings and even current books all “CLAIMING” that the end was imminent. None of he things they have prophesied has come true. Not one.I have apologists to share with me 1 correct prophecy or prediction that the WT has uttered over the years that is accurate. No one has shared any with me. The reason is bc it doesn’t exist. Thousands of failed predictions and flip flopped teachings.
Reply
 
 
 Willow (formerly anonymous) says:

 November 17, 2014 at 4:55 am
 
@Holy Caolli, when two of the elders from my congregation came over to talk to me, I told them that and they came back with 1914. I told them that it was just a coincidence that WW1 broke out in 1914 because Russell had said that by 1914, Armageddon was going to be over etc. and I even told them that I have the early books to prove it and they refused to listen to me.
As long as WW1 broke out in 1914, they all believe that their predictions come true. Facts don’t phase them. They believe what they want to believe.
I am wanting them to talk to me again. I can’t wait. I want them to prove to me that they have a way of approach to God in prayer through Jesus Christ. I can prove to them in our literature that they can not approach God through prayer unless they are of the 144,000. I am chomping at the bits over that little piece of information.
Reply
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 November 17, 2014 at 6:32 am
 
Willow: GOOD LUCK! As you said yourself, facts do not phase them.
 Neither do quotes from their own current or extinct literature. They just “KNOW they have the Truth.”
There is no reasoning or proof that exists, that will wake up someone who has been convinced to follow their self-proclaimed “Faithful and Discreet Slave.”
I wish you well. Congratulations on your escape.
The Watchtower has succeeded in ripping my family apart, simply because I decided not to become a member. (I never joined, but am being punished now as an apostate by my parents and sister. My niece just got baptized at the age of 11.)
Reply
 
 
 Holy Conolli says:

 November 17, 2014 at 12:34 pm
 
Willow. The 1914 teaching is SOOOOOO fake that I don’t even think the WT really Believes it anymore. It has been proven to be a stretch of the imagination and even Russell’s words and teachings are taken out of Context to try to prove hey were correct. Besides that the WT are the only ones that I know of that teach that Jerusalem fell in 607 bce. Scholars agree on the year 588 bce so that would throw their entire teaching off course. Alos at the time Russell and the early WT taught that they came to the conclusion by counting the distance in the Pyramids to some focal point and concluded it was 2520 feet or something like that and applied it to the prophecy of Daniel. It is so Bizarre how they cam to that point? It is actually “NUMEROLOGY” which is a non-biblical teaching. Ask the Elders if they came to that conclusion by using a unscriptural teaching is it really from God? Also if the 1914 teaching was correct why hasn’t Armegeddon already arrived since for 60 plus years tthye emphatically Declared that , “This generation( 1914 ) will be know means pass away” before ALL these things occur. Remember this, Many Elders are caught up in the same mental struggle that other JW’s are but are just going through the motions and no doubt they are thinking the same thoughts about the WT and questioning the teachings. I know myself as a former long time Elder I was question many many things for years and after a while I just had a “Crisis of Conscience” and had to admit to myself that it just isn’t true and that it is a Cult.
Reply
 
 
 Willow (formerly anonymous) says:

 November 17, 2014 at 1:13 pm
 
Holy Conolli to add to your comment. I even told the elders to look in the back in the B1 index of the new grey Bible with the pictures and it says “ABOUT 1914 C.E. Jesus hurls the serpent, Satan, to the earth, confining him there for a short time” and that didn’t even phase them.
All these years, the Society has always insisted and still insists that in 1914, Satan for a FACT threw Satan out of heaven down to the earth and that is why WW1 broke out. Putting the word ABOUT 1914, couldn’t have been an accident, especially since Jehovah apparently blessed them in making the new Bible with all heat and such.
I also think that many elders must have unanswered questions in their minds too but it’s such a drastic step to walk away so they chose to not think about any questions.
That had to be so hard for you. I can’t even imagine how had it was for you.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Conolli says:

 November 17, 2014 at 1:53 pm
 
It was very difficult to walk away. The many years in the JW ‘s and all your friends are JW’s and as you know you cannot have a open discussion if you have different thoughts or disagree w anything. It is not allowed so that puts mental pressure on a thinking person. I was very torn in my decision. Especially bc my wife was a staunch fanatical believer and still is . I cannot have an open discussion with her at all. She likes to call all the changes they make as “progressive” Revelation? I kindly point out all the ridiculous points of view they have on everything from Education to medical and flip flop doctrinal changes and she just won’t discuss it. It took me a while to break away. I did it slowly as in my case it was the best thing for me to become a fader. I can’t believe now that I went along with that craziness for so long.
Reply
 
 
 Willow (formerly anonymous) says:

 November 17, 2014 at 4:09 pm
 
I can’t have a discussion with my husband either so I understand what you are going through. No friends from the hall to understand and not even your own family. I keep learning more and more from every book I read from former Witnesses and they make me wonder how in the world I could have been so blind all those years.
There is no way that I’d go back to the Kingdom hall now. It’s so clear to me now. Even all the young people who have been disfellowshipped are related to those who still go go the Kingdom hall so I am not even free to talk to them if I should run into them because I am afraid they will tell on me to their parents. It is amazing just how twisted this religion is and how I was fooled by it. The Watchtower is a master at manipulation. I pity all those who are wasting their lives in it.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Conolli says:

 November 17, 2014 at 4:26 pm
 
Since I have been gone for 20 years now if I see someone on the street who is DF’d I have no problem talking with them or having a discussion. The WT instills Fear in people to keep them in line. That fear left me a Long long time go. I have even had GB people spend the night at my house in recent years and I have no fear of them nor do I care what they think. They are just manipulators who I think believe their own lies. I think they have bought into their own weird interpretations of the F& D slave and believe they are spoke people for God. To think that they teach that you are not allowed to speak with your own Children. Father, Mother bc they may disagree with some teachings or decide being a JW is not for them is worse than a Dictatorship.
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 November 22, 2014 at 6:50 am
 
Holy Connoli,
Did I read your comment correctly? You have had governing body members in your home? OMG! How on earth did that happen?
Peace be with you,
Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
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About JW Survey

A message from the founder of JWsurvey.org…
It is my pleasure to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey.org. This website has been launched to give voice to millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world who would not normally have the opportunity to say what they really think about the Watch Tower Society, or the teachings and practices of the Governing Body.
The Governing Body has yet to express any interest in hearing the views of ordinary witnesses. Their mantra is: “We talk, you listen!”

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, or a former Witness, you will be aware that the opinions of rank and file publishers (and even elders) are rarely sought by the Society. The small number of men making up the Governing Body have declared themselves the “faithful and discreet slave” of Matthew 24:45, thus claiming sole control over the organization’s teachings and policies. These men are most certainly NOT interested in the opinions of the “silent majority” of Witnesses under their authority. If they are, they have a strange way of showing it!
This website seeks to redress that balance by means of an annual survey that is conducted anonymously throughout the world. The first survey was taken in 2011, and immediately attracted the opinions of 1,118 voters before closing at the end of the year. The results were posted to the Governing Body for their attention and review but, predictably, they never replied.
The following year, 2012, the survey received votes from 1,488 current and former Witnesses, most of whom expressed their concern at various Watchtower teachings. The remarkable events of that year (the Candace Conti case and the “new light” about the faithful slave) certainly seemed to get people talking. Subsequent surveys promise to attract even more attention as our website steadily grows in popularity.
A website for all
This site has been created and made available online so that anyone, whether they are a former or current Witness, or in some way associated with Witness friends or relatives, can give their honest opinions about the organization and its governance.
We adopt a strictly non-religious viewpoint, meaning that we refuse to promote any belief structure in particular. For this reason, we cannot be accused of trying to “draw off followers.” We are merely interested in garnering the views of ordinary Witnesses and reporting on the facts.
The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not authorized or sponsored this survey, and it is run entirely without any influence or input from them. However, we genuinely feel that the brothers who serve on the Governing Body, having assumed such overwhelming responsibility, should take note of how ordinary Witnesses and the general public feel about their leadership, since millions of lives are affected by decisions they make at their private weekly meetings.
Who started this website?
I write under the name John Cedars. Until recently I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I left for conscientious reasons. You can read my story on this link.
I first had the idea to begin gathering the opinions of Jehovah’s Witnesses and their associates around the world because of a variety of issues that continue to be of real concern to me. I believe that ordinary Witnesses who devote their entire lives to loyally serving Jehovah, through what purports to be God’s spirit-directed organization, should have some say in the decisions that are made on their behalf.
It is my belief that not all is well within the organization, and many of the teachings and practices encouraged by the Governing Body are not formulated with the best interests of ordinary Witnesses at heart.
An unmerciful practice
For example, take the practice of shunning or “disfellowshipping.” The Apostle Paul’s words to the Corinthian congregation were as follows: “But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man… remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (1 Cor 5:11,12)
Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians about the disfellowshipping arrangement never called for family members to be torn apart

Clearly the Apostle Paul was delivering this admonition for the purpose of keeping the congregation clean. But to what extent should these words be applied? By saying “not even eating with such a man,” Paul indicated that his words weren’t directed against family members (who would daily eat with one another), but against other brothers in the congregation with whom one might consider sharing a meal.
There is no reason to insist that the word “anyone” should be applied arbitrarily to “everyone,” irrespective of age or circumstances. Even Watchtower publications acknowledge that there should be some exceptions where family members are concerned. For example, a disfellowshipped husband is not to be shunned by his wife or children, and parents are not banned from speaking to their disfellowshipped children if they are not yet old enough to leave home. But why should it end there?
Many share my opinion that there is scope to extend even more mercy in applying this scripture than is currently encouraged by the teachings of the Governing Body. Jesus said the following to the unrighteous pharisees: “Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.” (Matthew 9:13, New World Translation)
Jesus identified mercy as playing a crucial role in the extent to which laws and principles should be enforced. Many do not think it is merciful that older teenagers, many of whom were baptized at an extremely young age, are forced out of their homes by their parents and then cruelly shunned, often for the rest of their lives, through a mistaken and abhorrent interpretation of the Apostle Paul’s advice.
The Society’s publications themselves warn that “no one should be forced to… choose between his beliefs and his family.” (July 2009 Awake!, p.9) However, they apply this reasoning to every religion but their own.
The scriptures clearly prescribe “shunning” purely as a measure for maintaining the spiritual cleanliness of the congregation, and not for the purpose of breaking up families. To go one step further and insist that shunning should also apply to families is both destructive and deeply unmerciful. It also violates the principle expressed by the Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:8 where he said, “Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith.”
These and other teachings of the Governing Body are increasingly becoming a cause of sincere distress for many Witnesses who wish that the organization could adopt a more merciful and loving stance. In particular, one can now be disfellowshipped as an “apostate” merely for disagreeing with the Governing Body over this or other issues.
Only human
It is my sincere desire that by means of this website, and its surveys, the Governing Body will humbly consider the pleas of both myself and like-minded ones around the world who long for the Watch Tower Society to be a more loving organization – one that is truly observant of the need for respect and tolerance toward other people’s beliefs.
The members of the Governing Body are only human, and no matter how much they may pray for wisdom and insight, they cannot possibly be fully aware of how their teachings and directives are impacting the lives of their fellow worshippers on a daily basis. That is what makes this survey website so important. It serves as a constant reminder for them to show greater kindness and mercy in undertaking the role that they have assumed as the faithful and discreet slave.
I would like to thank you in advance for your support for this site, and for getting involved in our important work.
Warmest regards,
 
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276 Responses to About JW Survey

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 Holy Conolli says:

 November 22, 2014 at 12:00 pm
 
Yes I have on more than 1 occasion. They have spent the night at my house and I had not been to meetings in years. My wife is a BIG time JW and she likes to Hob nob with the Big Shots and has some connections at Bethel so when they came out to give “SPECIAL” talks at the assemblies etc she goes to work on getting them to stay at the house. There were about 25 JW’s at the house to greet him and “LISTEN” to the wisdom he brought. I was polite and I am a good host so I was there as well. Of course I did not make an issue or anything I just observed the entire ordeal. I wasn’t there to cause a scene I just let them be. There wasn’t anything special what he said he pretty much would just quote the WT verbatim when they asked questions. The JW’s always talk negatively about Creature worship and say the reason they do not celebrate B-days is bc it draws attention to the person instead of God? Well, when a GB comes around there is nothing but attention drawn to that person bc they feel he is like Jesus Christ himself almost. It was an interesting experience. To be fair he was very pleasant and cordial and polite while he was here. Of course my wife wanted me to engage him in a conversation about the issues I have with the WT and their teachings and duff prophecies but I did not want to get into it with him bc I already know what he is going to say. He is going to say the same thing that the WT says about the light getting brighter and how they are the only ones that are doing the Preaching work and all the things we have heard for years. It wasn’t the time or the place for that conversation plus I am sure he did not want to go into it.He would probably label me an apostate if we had that discussion. Not that I care but I just did not want to do it. When I was on a visit to Bethel in the late 80’s I had dinner and a few beers with Fred Franz. He was kind of funny. Almost blind at the time. When he finished his beer he slammed it down and said, “Another Dead Soldier”.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 November 22, 2014 at 3:19 pm
 
Hi Holy Canolli, your wife probably thinks if one of the Governing Body comes over, then that person will bring you back because they are just that much better than the others at convincing you or has she given up on you? I’d give my front teeth to be able to talk to them face to face. The first thing I’d ask is how can they prove 607, then 1914 and then 1919 and how many files do they have on child abusers in New York and why Did Garrett Losch say he didn’t have anything to do with the Watchtower. If you started on stuff like that when your wife had them over, that would be the last time and she’d never forgive you, would she? But what it would do is show them up for what they are too.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Conolli says:

 November 23, 2014 at 6:12 am
 
Hi Anonymous
I have brought up those points SO MANY times to my wife but I t just goes in one ear and out of the other. 607 bce, 1914, 1919, organ transplants, Shunning, higher education, duff prophecies, flip flopping on Blood transfusion, the United Nations debacle, Child abuse, the 2 witness rule, Pyramology,House of Princes in San Diego, amd do may other things. She likes to use the Illustration that the T is progressive and compare it to Medical Science? She sais medical Science doesn’t believe or practice what they did 50, 100, 200 years ago do they? They used to NOT wash after delivering a baby but later found out disease and germs are passed on to others if they do not. It was bc they did not have the Knowledge at that time. When it was “REVEALED” to them they changed.Or with Penicillin…they did not have the knowledge until it was “revealed” or discovered to them. SO it is “progressive Revelation” to her thinking and they keep adjusting until they get it right like the sailor that is “TACKING: as he crosses the oceans waters to get to their ultimate destination. They may go off course for a while but ALWAYS get back on course.
That argument I say is not a comparison bc Medical Science never claimed to be a spokesperson for Almighty God and the WT even after having made their o called Adjustments have gone back and forth on the same doctrine many, many times. Also after all of these adjustments the WT cannot still show after 140 years as a religion ! THING OR PROPHECY that they predicted has come true. Medical science has proved it by the very fact of their success in stopping and eradicating some disease and healing people. I did not go in that direction with the GB when he was here. I di share the article with her about Garrett refusing o testify and she said well there are 2 sides to every story and this is probably Media Bias. In the near future I think the GB will be coming again.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 November 23, 2014 at 6:23 am
 
Hi Holy Canolli. I feel your frustration. There is nothing I can say that my husband can absorb either. I have so much hatred for the Governing Body members right now, that I don’t know how I could hold it in if I was to meet them. I hope when they come next, that you can say something to them that will get your wife’s attention but more than likely, she’s looking at them like they are infallible like my husband does. I have to hand it to the Society (cult). They have crossed every T and dotted every i when it comes as to how to brainwash their idolator worshippers into following them, no matter how silly it is.
Reply
 
 
 Holy Conolli says:

 December 3, 2014 at 5:39 am
 
Anonymous
I feel your pain but try not to hate. I think if we do that it hurts us more and gives them some satisfaction and they will always make the claim like ..SEE…How unhappy that person is now that they left the Organization? They say see, “there is no happiness outside the organization”. I am sure you have heard that over the years. Hating what they do and did is normal but I think we harm ourselves if we let personal hate eat at us. Be happy you awoke and are no longer under their control. Reach inside yourself and find your peace.
Reply
 
 
 Wayne Bruce says:

 January 29, 2015 at 10:51 pm
 
Hi Cedars
This is a response not to yourself but to Paul Grundy (if you can please contact him, I failed). His article on beards in the JW movement possibly omitted an interesting comment I heard from a then elderly JW over 30 years ago about how the Russellites wore beards like CTR after his death, whereas those who followed Rutherford [JW forerunners] went clean-shaven.
 Maybe needs research/verification.
 Anyhow, All the best
 Wayne (ExJW)
 Australia
Reply
 
 
 Sheila l says:

 March 12, 2015 at 2:44 pm
 
Bravo, spot on and more accurate then the others I’ve seen. This needs to be told with truth not made up backwards crap I have read so far. I have been kicked out 4 times now and this time was the charm. I didn’t even get a meeting at the Hall or letter just a surprise call saying you’re out. I didn’t even know I had been under investigation as this time wasn’t guilty. Now I am being called
 Apostate for talking and then r questioning jws after being born into it 54 yes to be exact Thank You
Reply
 
 
 Gilbert says:

 April 24, 2015 at 5:47 pm
 
Keep up the work!
 I had a falling out with a loved one over the disfellowshiping issue.
 She misunderstood me as a JW but I respect why she did so.
 There is a difference between “Shaming” and “Shunning”. As one of JW I do not believe in Disfellowshiping. I DO believe in Shaming. BUT NOT ON A CONGREGATION LEVEL! I practiced shaming on a relative who was way off course. The result is now a happy marriage and a son. But is was a ONE on ONE dialoge and shaming. My father, a Catholic, did the same to me when I was 17. It changed my life. Shame is good when done appropriately.
 JW heirachy has done a dis-service to Jesus Christ in this regard. Imagine Jesus asking you to write a letter and review it in 6 months to see if you can be forgiven? My goodness
 I hope one day to make amends with her.
 People are more valuable than organizations. But not Watchtower. The “Organization” is more valuable than the people. John 3:16
Reply
 
 
 apologist says:

 June 8, 2015 at 1:43 pm
 
you have already erased everything I have written
 you are a clown with a hidden agenda working for satan
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 June 8, 2015 at 2:38 pm
 
Geez apologist, get a life!!
Reply
 
 
 Frank James says:

 June 16, 2015 at 1:21 am
 
‘Apologist’. Fortunately, Gilbert is right on the money. The idea of shunning is a mean, cruel way of ‘punishing’ a person for using the free will that is a gift from God anyway. By shunning ones own children, who are another gift from God, is certainly not honouring Jehovah, but in actuality, dishonouring Him. No where in the scriptures does it say to abandon your children, siblings or spouse because they have their own thoughts on religion. We are ALL different and that’s the way God made us.
Reply
 
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 June 8, 2015 at 2:06 pm
 
@apologist. Typical JW answer. Anyone that disagrees w the WT is from Satan. Case closed. Ears Closed. Eyes Closed. Mind Closed. Heart Closed. Apologist, PLEASE show mw 1 prophecy the WT has predicted that has come true in their short 135 years of existence. I can show you 100’s of ones they uttered that did not come true. Just 1 Apologist.
Reply
 
 Wanderer says:

 June 16, 2015 at 5:03 am
 
Here is some JW prophecy. The 1920 leaflet & talk millions now living will never die? Or the generation of 1914 being alive at Armageddon? Or constructing Beth Sarim? Or………No, I give up!
Reply
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 June 16, 2015 at 11:44 am
 
@wanderer. Here are some more prophecies from the WT. The King of the North will prevail ( Russia ) they will gain control over the oil of the world ( Daniels prophecy book ) the year 1925 is more important in prophecy than 1925, Jehovah dwells on his own planet, Just a few more months before Armageddon ( 1942 )
 The last days began in early 1800’s when Napoleon was taking over Europe, Then it began in 1874,Mussolini plays a major part in Bible prophecy, The Princes like King David will be resurrected before Armageddon,and we can expect them at any minute! Judge Rutherford is so CONVINCED that King David will be resurrected he SIGNS OVER THE GRANT DEED to the home in Beth Sarim in San Diego California! ( A real Nut case ) The flip flop again on the what is a generation when it is evident that the prediction that this generation WILL NOT pass away is not coming true. The Flip flop again on the F&D Slave who it is and what they do? Remids me of David Koresh and the WACO TEXAS
 situation.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Frank James says:

 June 16, 2015 at 1:28 am
 
Holy Connoli
 To be able to show 1 ‘prophesy’ that the JW organisation had shown to be true, one would need to be blind, deaf and have a very cold heart. Satan does not even come into the discussion
Reply
 
 
 Average Joe says:

 July 21, 2015 at 2:52 pm
 
I think an in-depth article about JWs & beards would be good for discussion.
 This is such an American JW man made rule and results in having privileges removed if you’re unfortunate enough to be in a congregation where the elders have decided you’re worldly if you have a beard!
 Interesting how very well respected individuals like surgeons, bank managers (hmmm maybe not so much now with their pay rises), doctors have beards but the WTS still infers they are bad. Note the absence of them in any of their publications when JWs are portrayed. I think the reason is because no American politician has a beard so the WTS being based there is influenced by such thinking. What’s bizarre is how they don’t have the spine to come out and directly say that they don’t like beards on JWs (although I’m not too keen on women with them!)
 I have had various discussions with self-righteous elders over the years and I quote Isaiah 5:20 ‘woe to those who say good is bad’. What’s more unnatural: shaving your beard off that God has given you or letting it grow? To judge someone’s spirituality by their facial hair is ridiculous. What makes the elders that are against beards even more like the Pharisees (apart from their laws of men over God’s principles) is the fact that they themselves allow (or even wear) moustaches. IT’S STILL FACIAL HAIR!
“Ah but in some cultures a man of God with a beard is not accepted” came the reply in one of their stock letters to me as a teenager so I wrote back politely asking them to tell me which cultures these were… still waiting for a response.
 Many town congregations in the North of the UK where I’m originally from accept beards, many reasonable elders actually sporting them, realising that it is not our place to enforce personal opinions on others as regards to modest dress & grooming. I just love the look on American JW faces when they come over to the UK and the first thing they say is “wow! You guys are allowed to have beards!”
Maybe TPT Morris thinks beards are designed by homosexuals too!
 OK rant over. Peace & I’m out of here…
Reply
 
 
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← Disfellowshipped but NOT reported: UK pedophile subjected boys to “truly wicked” acts
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“Shun your disfellowshipped loved ones!”: Shocking District Convention talk hits YouTube
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Posted on July 31, 2013
 
A 2013 District Convention talk ordering Witnesses to shun disfellowshipped relatives has been uploaded to YouTube

A talk by a Watchtower representative urging the shunning of relatives is sending shockwaves through the online JW community.
Recorded at one of the 2013 “God’s Word Is Truth” District Conventions in California, the speaker instructs Witnesses to shun family members, even children, as an act of loyalty.
In his Saturday-afternoon talk entitled “The Truth Brings ‘Not Peace, But a Sword’,” Wallkill Bethel representative Steven Bell laid the blame for the heartache of shunning squarely at the feet of those who are disfellowshipped.
“Resist self-blame,” Bell told an audience of thousands of Witnesses. “We may think that we’re at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Each person has to have a personal relationship with Jehovah. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped, it’s because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.”
Since being uploaded less than 24 hours ago, the video has already received thousands of views and has provoked an angry backlash on JW forums and Facebook groups – especially among those who are currently being shunned.


Video transcript available on this link.
Ironically, even though the above talk openly encourages divisions between families on religious grounds, the official handbill circulated by Jehovah’s Witnesses to promote the convention posed the following question on its front cover…


Bell’s talk, which was based on an outline provided for him by the Teaching Committee of the Governing Body, draws on Christ’s words in Matthew 10:34,35 to suggest that Witnesses should expect their beliefs to cause family divisions.
In using this scripture, the Governing Body are implying that all who are disfellowshipped from Jehovah’s Witnesses oppose God and Jesus and should therefore be shunned. Failure to shun family members who are former Witnesses is to be considered an act of disloyalty against God.
“What does Jehovah expect out of us, even if the situation is so painful that we have a family member who is disfellowshipped? What does he want?” asks Bell. “Loyalty, that’s what Jehovah wants. Jehovah knows that this is a difficult time in our life, but he wants loyalty.”
Loyalty to the Watch Tower Society is thus to be considered equal to loyalty to God.
Emotional blackmail admitted
Those who oppose Watchtower’s practice of shunning former members point to the fact that it essentially constitutes emotional blackmail. The purpose of disfellowshipping is, they say, not to restore the person’s relationship with God, but to blackmail the person into returning to the organization by holding his family hostage. Interestingly, this is precisely how disfellowshipping is presented in Bell’s talk.
Rather than being aimed at helping the individual, shunning holds a person’s family hostage until they comply with the Society’s wishes

“When someone is disfellowshipped,” explains Bell, “one of the reasons they want to come back into Jehovah’s organization is to associate with the brothers and sisters in the congregation and likely to associate with their family. So if we associate with them when they’re disfellowshipped, we could actually be taking away from them a motivating factor for wanting to be reinstated.”
Bell then attempts to drive his point home with a bizarre hypothetical scenario in which a disfellowshipped person is finally reinstated and promptly criticizes his family for not shunning him fully. Many have already commented on how unlikely this scenario would be.
“Just imagine now if we didn’t remain loyal and we talk to them [the disfellowshipped person] and associate with them,” suggests Bell. “Could you imagine the feeling we would have the night they were reinstated, and they walked up to us and said: ‘Why weren’t you loyal to Jehovah when I was disfellowshipped?’ That would cut us at our heart! But what joy you would have if they walked up and said, ‘Thank you for being loyal to Jehovah! Your example motivated me to return to serve Jehovah!’ Remember, in all cases, being loyal to Jehovah is the most important thing.”
Misrepresentation to the outside world
The recording of the shunning talk was just one of a series of audio files that were made available to JWsurvey.org. Interestingly, an announcement was read out at the start of the convention, which stated: “Any recordings of this program should be for your personal use or for the benefit of those unable to be present. Recordings should not be made available for general circulation, or distribution.”
Anyone who listens to the shunning talk will understand the Society’s concern in wanting to keep a lid on what instructions are given to Witnesses behind closed doors. Like many religious organizations, Watchtower is acutely image conscious, and wants to make sure it can control the facade it presents to the outside world – even if this involves using deception.
A 2011 clipping from the Independent

For example, in 2011 a journalist for the Independent quizzed Watchtower representative Rick Fenton on whether the Society ostracizes (or shuns) so-called apostates. Fenton replied by describing ostracization as a “personal matter for each individual to decide for himself.” Then, in early 2013, another Watchtower representative by the name of Vincent Toole described shunning as a “myth” when questioned by an Australian reporter. (click here for article)
Even the Society’s official website, JW.org, goes to considerable lengths to conceal the extent of its shunning practices. In its FAQ section under the question “Do You Shun Former Members of Your Religion?” an evasive answer is given that leaves the reader bewildered and none the wiser. The four-paragraph ‘answer’ can be summarized as follows:
◾Paragraph 1: talks about how inactive Witnesses are not shunned, even though the question specifically refers to “former members.”
◾Paragraph 2: ignores the fact that the question is about shunning entirely and discusses the judicial process, mentioning that not everyone who sins is disfellowshipped.
◾Paragraph 3: mentions that family heads are not subject to shunning – one of only two loopholes that is provided (the other being children that are too young to leave home).
◾Paragraph 4: sums up by explaining that disfellowshipped persons are invited to meetings, ignoring the fact that nobody will be allowed to speak to them, including their family members, which is shunning.
But the Society hasn’t just lied about its practice of shunning and shied away from discussing it on its official website. This new YouTube video highlights a quote from a 2009 Awake! magazine that lambasted other religions for causing family divisions, thus implying that those who choose to become Witnesses will never face this predicament.

“No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.” – g7/09 p.29
If only Watchtower could itself live up to the standards it expects from other faiths.
The backlash begins
Predictably, many current and former Witnesses who have seen the video have been saddened and outraged by it. Those who are themselves on the receiving end of shunning have especially expressed their dismay that this is the sort of propaganda their Witness family members are being pummelled with.
Of course, there is nothing unusual in the actual instructions conveyed in the talk. Those who are familiar with the Witness faith know about the extent to which shunning is enforced, and that it is principally intended as emotional blackmail. What makes the talk unusual is the manner in which the speaker brazenly and forcefully spells out that shunning is something Witnesses are compelled to do, even to children, in total contradiction of the image Watchtower seeks to portray to outsiders.
Now the talk is being circulated on YouTube, it is hoped that more non-JWs will be made aware of the enormous pressure Witnesses are under to inflict misery and heartache on their disfellowshipped loved ones – all in the name of “loyalty.”
It is also hoped that Steven Bell, who so passionately and enthusiastically defended the harmful policies of his Governing Body masters, does not rise any higher up the Watchtower leadership chain. If he were to ever become a Governing Body member himself, based on this talk, I shudder to think how further radicalized the organization might become in the future.
 


 
 
 
 
Further reading…
◾PDF transcript of Steven Bell’s talk: English | Portuguese
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
◾An Open Letter to Jehovah’s Witnesses, by Robert Crompton
◾Stephanie Hammond’s blog article “Shunning the Shunners”
◾Patheos.com article
Related videos…








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← Disfellowshipped but NOT reported: UK pedophile subjected boys to “truly wicked” acts
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112 Responses to “Shun your disfellowshipped loved ones!”: Shocking District Convention talk hits YouTube


Newer Comments →
 
 Joanna Foreman says:

 July 31, 2013 at 5:45 am
 
If some who are disfellowshipped return to the Organization only to be able to associate with their families, what does that say about the lengths the Society will go to to get members? It reeks of hypocrisy, approved by the WT., when one returns, not for their love of Jehovah God, but for a rather normalcy with family life. The Org. actually suggests this type of blackmail. What type of religious group, who claims to follow Jesus Christ, would even propose such behavior?
Reply
 
 
 Anthony says:

 July 31, 2013 at 5:48 am
 
Predicted: Watchtower legal will claim copyright on this public talk and have it pulled from YouTube.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 July 31, 2013 at 6:01 am
 
Interesting prediction Anthony, that may well happen.
Reply
 
 
 
 catmuug says:

 July 31, 2013 at 6:11 am
 
J’ai quitté l’organisation volontairement (54 ans dedans), car dégoutée de leurs fausses révélations et de leur totalitarisme. Je ne le regrette pas du tout malgré que ma famille (que j’ai amené à l’organisation avec d’autres) ne me parle plus du tout. J’ai découvert
 que les horribles “gens du monde” avaient en fait un coeur en or beaucoup plus que certains T.J. L’organisation perd beaucoup d’adeptes et devient une bête féroce. Ouvrez vos yeux !
Reply
 
 
 Johnny Joker says:

 July 31, 2013 at 6:23 am
 
Upload it to some video-streaming sites [vimeo, etc.], from various accounts, and if they remove it, you can quickly change the embedded code in your article. Thus way, they would always just go circles. 😉
Reply
 
 
 DDD says:

 July 31, 2013 at 6:59 am
 
I swear they make me sick to my stomach! How long can this go on????????
Reply
 
 
 Thinking Free says:

 July 31, 2013 at 7:55 am
 
The information in this video when questioned by a member of this society, would be defended to the demise of anyone who dares speak out against it. Its unimaginably difficult to sacrifice and entire life of friends family and love – even if it is to escape the clutches of deception.
 what about the words in the bible about love …
 “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evill but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”
Reply
 
 
 FutureMan says:

 July 31, 2013 at 8:00 am
 
I do believe that it will go on for as long as the flying scroll is operation and it has done it’s job throughout all the religious and political and secular organizations.
Obviously the flying scroll has to work overtime when it comes to the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses, the deceptions and injustices are not quite so obvious to those who were never affiliated with the organization, but they are obvious to those who were once part of the organization and also to some of those who are still part of it.
But honestly this is a very sobering scriptural that a humble man who was standing on the street outside a shopping center once showed to me quite a few years ago now, and I will quote it for you here.
Zechariah 5
 1 ¶ And I again lifted up my eyes and looked, and, behold, a flying scroll!
 2 And he said to me, What do you see? And I answered, I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits, and its width ten cubits.
 3 And he said to me, This is the curse that goes forth over the face of the whole earth. For from now on everyone who steals shall be cut off according to it; and everyone who swears from now on shall be cut off according to it.
 4 And I will bring it forth, says Jehovah of Hosts. And it shall go into the house of the thief, and into the house of the one who swears falsely by My name. And it shall remain within his house and shall finish it, and its timber, and its stones.[LITV]
Reply
 
 
 Joann King says:

 July 31, 2013 at 8:26 am
 
They can do whatever they want to do. They use the same exact mind control tactics utilized by Jim Jones with his Peoples Temple back in the 70’s. If you are unfamiliar with this insidious tragedy, do some research on it. You will be surprised how similar his mind-controlled methods were in keeping his membership, very much like the JW’s. They have my sister and her daughters trapped in that mess, but fortunately for me, my son and all my other family members are not JW’s. They’re shipwrecked on that island by themselves. I’m moving on with my life and my sister being involved with them is not going to make me come back to Hall.
I’m done with this cult,it’s over for me and I have definitely moved on. I have broke the programming and unplugged from the matrix. Sites like this Cedar make it easier for me to see the clarity and rightness in my decision. I have three good friends and I consider these women in my life my new sisters. They accept me for who I’m and show me unconditional love. I sincerely pray that more individuals will able to hold on to their standards and integrity and not give-in to the ruthless, mean spirited, evil machine called the Watchtower and Tract Society. I did not leave God I left a well, oiled man-made machine that has self-righteously imposed itself as a true representative of God.
At the end of the day…all of us are individuals who have to make decisions (sometimes hard, gut-wrenching ones) on how we want to live our OWN individual lives and I can’t compromise my life, goals and dreams because one of my sibling chooses to be involved in a cult. It’s her life…..this one is mine and I’m going to live it with no regrets.
Reply
 
 
 Whatever says:

 July 31, 2013 at 8:30 am
 
The Watchtower is under fire in Denmark because of these hate speeches. Check out the info here:
 www (dot) dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English/2013/07/25/132435.htm
Of course, the Watchtower is saying they are not discriminating and that they are just quoting the Bible:
www (dot) dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2013/07/25/151958.htm
Note the second one is in Danish. Use Google Translate.
Article 266b of the Danish Criminal Code, under which “any person who publicly or with the intention of dissemination to a wide circle of people makes a statement or imparts other information threatening, insulting or degrading a group of persons on account of their race, colour, national or ethnic origin, belief or sexual orientation shall be liable to a fine, simple detention or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years”.
Reply
 
 
 70wksofyrs says:

 July 31, 2013 at 9:11 am
 
Cedars,
 I wasn’t able to watch the whole video…it might be my end…or it could have been sabotage as predicted.
None the less the article and other comments were great!
I would like to point out that Matthew chapter 10 is not even about disfellowshipped ones, it’s about xJews that converted to Christians and trying to convert other Jews and in the household causing divisions when a husband may be interested in the Apostles message and the wife is opposed to the new Christian message. So in my view the scriptures have been used out of context and misapplied.
Also in our Hall there are a few of us Df’d on the back row, and thankfully some of our family members talk to us about “necessary” business as it is a matter of “conscience”…good on them for not being robots, happily I don’t think this talk will make a difference. Having said this though..one Dad has taken a rigid unbalanced stand…and the child on getting reinstated in the future promises never to speak to the Dad again… I think this is really damaging and confusing to young children and grandchildren. It will have a lasting and detrimental effect on this family for good now.
Nice to be back Cedars
 70wksofyrs
Reply
 
 
 Pongo says:

 July 31, 2013 at 9:44 am
 
Interesting that the JW spokesperson failed to mention what qualifies as ‘apostasy’ these days. I suspect that Jesus spent most of his time people who didn’t agree with him, given his role, so that comparison on the part of JWs is worthless. He would have been accused of associating with apostates, therefore of supporting ‘snakes’ and ‘viruses’ under the current regime.
Somehow these guys have to figure out that religious freedom also has limits in modern society. If your system of belief tells you that human sacrifices are required by the faithful to demonstrate loyalty, you do not have the ‘freedom’ to practice that form of religion. I think the same standard should be applied to practices that violate human rights or promote mental harm. You simply do not have the right to harm others because of your belief system.
Reply
 
 
 John says:

 July 31, 2013 at 9:53 am
 
ok now that I know I can post. I have a son who is in and on the fence but doesn’t talk to me because im DF’ed. He is talking with his sister who is DF and brother who is disassociated. I think in time he will get over the fence and finally get out!! My mom once said that this religion has done nothing but ruin her family. But when you look at these people who stay in, it’s nothing more then mind control as no one is holding a shot gun to their head. But in a sense they are holding a mental shot gun to your head with all that they write and require of you. Since the advent of the internet and the exposing of the hypocrisy of the WTBS and its Governing Body members they have no choice but to really tighten the grips on the remaining loyal ones to not GOD but those 8 Men who self profess to now be the FDS. How much lower or what tactics they will use to further the distance between them and normal people remains to be seen. this video is outright disgusting and has not one sense of True Christian love in it. It is cult type talk with an aim at keeping the relatives who are left in it. To Bad To Bad you WTBS as your ways are being exposed to the masses everyday. Your fall is coming quickly as a thief in a night. And oh don’t worry not one of us so called “Mentally Diseased” people will predict a date as we rely on Gods word the Bible exclusively!!! We see the real Truth and are not False Prophets!
Reply
 
 
 John says:

 July 31, 2013 at 12:50 pm
 
Just a after thought. I wonder if the Bethel brother who gave the talk has any children and what age is he? No doubt he has no fellow feeling from the deflection in his voice shows. He is Dramatic at best and would not make it as a real actor. The scripture at matthew as previously stated had nothing to do with the WBTS rules on shunning. It is so unbelievably mis quoted in its entire context. The more I hear of the writings that are approved by the FDS the more it tells me they are so so far from perceived reality of real life as it is. Furthermore it has no basis on Jesus own words. As usual mis-quoting and twisting the scriptures to fit their own agenda not Gods. His words should say are we being Loyal to the WTBS period.
Reply
 
 Joanna Foreman says:

 July 31, 2013 at 4:01 pm
 
Oh was that a Bethelite brother? I thought it was Kermit the Frog. My bad.
Reply
 
 JBob says:

 July 31, 2013 at 4:18 pm
 
You’re killing me…. :-) !! Kermit…
Reply
 
 
 
 
 JBob says:

 July 31, 2013 at 2:07 pm
 
Who’s in charge here?
Without waxing Scientology–this is a clear example of how the Watchtower uses our reactions and emotions to control not only those who remain inside its “approved” borders and outside in the disapproved or renounced areas. It’s similar to way a divorced couple can get at each other through their children’s actions or statements, or an ex-significant other abrasively rips their former partner’s emotions by words through friends or actively being seen with someone to evoke envy. You will have feelings about them, or for them, so have an emotional reaction inside (or acted-out).
The simple term is “get over it”, but how? Turning off feelings is not a quickly performed without an awareness of when we’re sensing those emotions arising and coping mechanisms to channel the feelings into something constructive rather than self-destructive.
This is why leaving, or dropping-out, requires a support system–be it a non-JW friend who can bring a balanced view of the situation, or better a licensed therapist who can reflect our feelings and assist in realizing where these moods are deriving. Then, once recognized the individual can take measures to find constructive coping mechanisms and defenses.
For example, the Watchtower’s beliefs and philosophies on shunning is known by those who were in “it” not by those outside. Asking, Do I really need some wet-behind-the-ears Bethelite to tell me this again? and, on grainy YouTube [bootleg cellphone] video to tell me this, again? I think not. Yes, I can use it to convince others that “I’m not crazy”. {like Joann King posted}
But, rather than react emotionally, take it for what it is–further proof of the Watchtower’s total-authority & dominance over individual’s lives rather than nurturing relationships with Jesus and the Father, it is choking the life out of individuals and draining their wallets for its “greater cause”. When continuing to react, one remains under the influence, if not control, of the Watchtower.
Reply
 
 Joanna Foreman says:

 July 31, 2013 at 3:59 pm
 
I truly don’t mind hearing this over and over again, if by posting it on my FaceBook, some of my friends will at least know to stay away from them when come a knockin’. It’s not so much about educating exJWs because we already know what we already know, but there are lots of people out there who haven’t a clue. It’s about making everyone aware of how damaging this cult is.
Reply
 
 
 
 Questionall451 says:

 July 31, 2013 at 6:53 pm
 
This has been one of the most serious, sobering, eye opening posts on this site. It totally smacks of jealous control issues. It is a textbook case of damaging persuasive indoctrination. Thanks.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 July 31, 2013 at 6:59 pm
 
I was raised as a Jehovahs Witness but faded away when I left home. Love my family dearly but now my elderly father and baby sister have been disfellowshipped recently. I’ve been researching the faith recently, since this happened. I’m familiar with most of it still, but your site and Wikipedia have been an amazing eye opener! This is heart breaking and I hope they will break free since they do not listen to differing / opposing opinions. Thank you for providing the information.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 July 31, 2013 at 9:49 pm
 
The talk didn’t mention disassociation at all. I know that the Society thinks it’s the same as disfellowshipping, but it’s still interesting disassociation wasn’t mentioned in the talk. I disassociated myself, but I don’t practice sin, and I never talk about religion with my family who are JWs. Are they still required to shun me?
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 August 1, 2013 at 12:29 am
 
Anonymous, yes, your family are still required to shun you. There is no difference in that respect between disassociation and disfellowshipping, which is likely why disassociation wasn’t specifically mentioned.
Reply
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 July 31, 2013 at 10:40 pm
 
Joanna Foreman,
 You are right. it is like fighting an infectious diseases. Much efforts should be directed to those not yet contaminated. An example of HIV/AIDS, “prevention is better than cure”!!
Reply
 
 
 veronica says:

 August 1, 2013 at 12:16 am
 
Were. U a JW b4?
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 August 1, 2013 at 12:31 am
 
Is that question for me? If so, I am still a JW now. I am just inactive.
Reply
 
 
 
 isabella botticelli says:

 August 1, 2013 at 12:54 am
 
Thanks for sharing the video, Cedars. The fallacies, double-speak, blackmail, and the mandatory misrepresentation of scripture coming from the WT was mind-numbing. So nice to continually exceed our (rather low) expectations of them.
You wouldn’t happen to have a transcript of this talk so we can really tear it to pieces, would you?
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 August 1, 2013 at 2:25 am
 
Good news Isabella! I’ve produced a transcript of the talk, which is available on this link: http://jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Transcript-of-2013-Shunning-Talk.pdf
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 August 1, 2013 at 2:52 am
 
Cedars,
 you are “active” not “inactive”! You are really saving many souls though you cannot measure it.
Now, what do you think of the GB quoting Micah 7:5 (which is the same as Matthiew 10:32-38)?
The injustices practiced by the wicked leaders affect all of Judah and Israel. Micah 7:5 notes that a lack of justice has led to a lack of trust between companions, confidential friends, and even marriage mates. Verse 6 indicates that this has led to a state of affairs wherein relatives as close as sons and fathers, daughters and mothers, despise one another. (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w03+8%2F15+p.+20+par.+9)
There JUDGING THEMSELVES??? Don’t you think so!!
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 August 1, 2013 at 2:41 am
 
What do you think of this? Plagiarism? To give weight to the talk the man says the word’s are Jesus’. Why not Micah’s?
Micah 7:5-6 reads:
Do not put YOUR faith in a companion. Do not put YOUR trust in a confidential friend.+ From her who is lying in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth.+ 6 For a son is despising a father; a daughter is rising up against her mother;+ a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;+ a man’s enemies are the men* of his household.+ (http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/33/7)
Matthiew 10:32-38 = Micah 7:5-6. Indeed, Micah 7:6 says “a man’s enemies are the men of his household” and Matthiew 10:36 says the same.
I tend to think that if the talk was based on Micah 7:5-6 it WOULD MEAN LESS and many families would escape this “POISONOUS TALK”!!
Reply
 
 
 Unbaptized Publisher says:

 August 1, 2013 at 3:01 am
 
Don’t forget how unbaptized publishers that either decides to leave JW or get reproved so they are no longer unbaptized publishers also should be treated just like disfellowshipped ones. This affects children even younger than 7 years.
Reply
 
 
 JBob says:

 August 1, 2013 at 9:10 am
 
Paranoia runs deep…
Hint, hint, did anyone read the entire article–who is the “voice of Jehovah”? [try to hold your lunch down]
Reply
 
 
 chuck says:

 August 1, 2013 at 9:10 am
 
You see this is not new, Having been “inside” since 1960’s , shunning was always told to us, try to ignore bro’s or sisters in your own house. Once you became old enough you where kick out of house if you were shunned. Now beening much older and in the disfollowshiped section, I have not spoke to father, mom, 2 sisters for over 15 years. they have not even anything to do with the grandkids (never seen them). This is not an reglion at all, it is an cult, what ever is hand down as the word from head office they will follow blindly no questions asked, kool aid any one?
Reply
 
 
 JBob says:

 August 1, 2013 at 9:22 am
 
Where the injustice part of this should strike is WHY are persons disfellowshipped? The first answer for most r/f is “you committed a wrongdoing”. Nope. There’s other lighter forms of disciplines that can be applied. D/F is at the discretion of the elder body and maybe some escalations to HQ. So, being d/f is a body of men making a judgement call, NOT any thing to do with JEHOVAH coming down and declaring someone “evil”. These same MEN thus impose their will onto those subservient to follow the orders to ostracize someone of their blood and kin. There’s no room for counseling and assisting someone to grow; the decision to d/f as stated is arbitrary and often capricious. It is not consistent from ruling to ruling in the same congregation, and certainly is not consistent from congregation to congregation, or country to country. Often the inconsistency is justified by “someone wasn’t repentant” or “failed to show remorse”–no one knows because the judicial committee is allegedly a sealed door meeting. We do know that individuals committing the same offense are not meted the same justice or due-process in these “kangaroo courts”.
Thus, to take the bold step of abandoning family or friendships is clearly a cult-like move to isolate “loyal” adherents to the viewpoints of the reigning leaders, and note I said the viewpoints of the leaders not Biblical views.
Reply
 
 
 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 August 1, 2013 at 6:51 pm
 
There was a time and not very long ago…when I could listen to a talk this long and count the number of scriptures that were cited and read on my fingers and toes and possibly then some but the mere fact that he could orchestrate a full length “Mind Sc***” based on one and only one scripture is a powerful and disturbing statement of the changes that this organization has and is RAPIDLY undergoing!
Reply
 
 
 isabella botticelli says:

 August 1, 2013 at 9:10 pm
 
OOH, thank you so much!!! (hugs)
Reply
 
 
 Zeebo says:

 August 1, 2013 at 10:41 pm
 
Hello,
 I managed to get my JW wife to watch this (she went to convention) and she is absolutely convinced that this was not said and this whole speech and the ‘human apostate’ speech are made up to make people turn against JWs. Now this is interesting because on one hand she is recognizing how bad these things are, but deals with it by calling it all lies and clever editing. Was this speech given as per the recording or is it an edited montage?
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 August 1, 2013 at 11:31 pm
 
Zeebo – well done for showing the video to you wife. It doesn’t surprise me that she assumed it was contrived. This is a common “cognitive dissonance” response when JWs are presented with shocking things the organization has produced. Many JWs reacted the same way when they first saw the Sparlock video.
You can assure your wife that I have not edited the video at all other than to remove some of the background noise and make the speaker easier to listen to. If you want me to send you the original audio file of the entire talk, please contact me.
Reply
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 August 1, 2013 at 10:47 pm
 
JBob,
 You are right. Jehovah has nothing to do with all this. Imagine, you can appeal a decision of a judicial committee (e.g disfellowship). In the Elder’s Manual ‘Shepherding Textbook you will find things like “If the Appeal Committee Agrees With the Judicial Committee (11-15)” at p.106 and “If the Appeal Committee Disagrees With the Judicial Committee” (16-20) p.107.
Where is Jehovah in those stupid arrangements. How can “Jehovah Agrees with Jehovah” or “Jehovah Disagrees with another JEHOVAH”!!!! MAN MADE ORGANIZATION!!
Reply
 
 
 Zeebo says:

 August 2, 2013 at 3:31 am
 
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I was sure as i found multiple copies on yourtube so cant all be contrived. And i found it very funny when she was saying that they took words and phrases out of context and then edited it. It reminded me of the famous ‘should you believe in the Trinity’ book that takes 3 saints and then completely changes what they said.. one being the father of trinity doctrine lol.
I was wondering why don’t they publish these on the jw.org site??? hmm if its a public talk then surely it should be on there.. I mean if Gods little helpers at bethel want this message preached trough the inhabited earth, why not put this divine message online for the world to see?
Reply
 
 
 Joann King says:

 August 2, 2013 at 4:25 am
 
They use the word “Jehovah” to substitute for being loyal and pledging allegiance to eight men and a man-made printing company who self-imposed themselves as so-called true representatives of God. They are going hard because they are desperately trying to hold on to every living body they got in those seats.
More and more of their deceptive behavior is being exposed and the child abuse cases are ever mounting. They got to keep the last of the delusional die-hards in a bubble and they can’t have their non-witnesses relatives and dF’ed (now) well-informed relative pulling their coats on what’s really going on.
Reply
 
 Balaam's Rear says:

 August 2, 2013 at 9:21 am
 
“Pay no attention to those eight men, I am the great and powerful Sparlock–er, Jehovah!!!” [rolling thunder (from down under?)]
Isn’t it rather curious that d/f relatives must be shunned, but pedophiles and pederastic elders get shifted from congregation to congregation and no disciplinary action as harsh as d/f-ing?
Reply
 
 
 
 Bibelforscher says:

 August 2, 2013 at 3:35 pm
 
In our convention talk in Germany, propaganda campaign against apostates are recognized by public newspaper:http://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/augsburg/Taufen-vor-der-Messehalle-id26432911.html?ga=mobil
 The talk against apostates was directly before baptize talk. Bad luck 😉
Reply
 
 
 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 August 2, 2013 at 5:20 pm
 
Bibelforscher August 2, 2013 at 3:35 pm
In our convention talk in Germany, propaganda campaign against apostates are recognized by public newspaper:http://www.augsburger-allgemeine.de/augsburg/Taufen-vor-der-Messehalle-id26432911.html?ga=mobil
 The talk against apostates was directly before baptize talk. Bad luck 😉
Sehr Interresant,
Wie ist die allgemeine Stimmung in Deutschland? Um die Zeugen Jehovah’s…
Für mich ist es mehr als zwanzig Jahre, 6 Monate vor die Wende seit Ich in Deutschland geworden war und Ich weiss daß viel geändert hat!
(Es war nie gut vom Anfang!)
Reply
 
 
 Anonymous says:

 August 3, 2013 at 7:48 am
 
I’m an x-j , and I left by my own decision. Blaming the org is pointless and limits your ability to truly think for yourself. All human social groups use shunning as a method of compliance with the group’s “code”. What religion does it- all do in one form or another. Catholics were far worse but have have acquiesced in order to maintain their flock (aka Revenue Stream) . The failure of the JW’s to grow by any significant measure is largely due to the strict adherence to their code. Foolish from a fiscal perspective. My guess is the leadership is deluded by their own hubris in believing they actually know the “Truth”, or they are happy with the current size of the org and maintaining the status quo is sufficient for their finances and desire for power.
The truth is all organized religions are “false prophets”. To give the JWs even this level of investigation and scrutiny only legitimizes their existence. For those involved, frankly I have no empathy. Their desire for social acceptance outweighs the wisdom of their own thoughts and questions, and therefore they have chosen their path. If they shun you for leavin, then they have chosen their own desires over their love for you. Those that abide by such rules are the ones that give the rules power. Don’t blame the org, blame the people who stick with it- it is fulfilling their needs- and THAT is why they don’t leave and shun those that do.
In essence, It’s no different then being shunned by a group of “worldly” people when you don’t engage in activity they are– like drugs. Try to hang in a group of people doing drugs and be the straight guy.
If you don’t like JWs – leave, and don’t look back
Reply
 
 
 Cedars says:

 August 3, 2013 at 7:54 am
 
Anonymous – your comment gives new meaning to the phrase “sweeping generalization.”
It is most certainly not true that, “all human social groups use shunning as a method of compliance.”
Though you claim to be an Ex-JW, your parting shot smacks of an apologist, i.e. “if you don’t like it, why not just leave.” There is absolutely no excuse for ANY organization to encourage the shunning of family members, and it is most certainly not the case that shunning is commonplace in all religions or “social groups.” Those like me whose lives are impacted by this and other harsh policies are well within their rights to stand up for themselves and do something to highlight the problem.
Reply
 
 
 David A says:

 August 4, 2013 at 8:38 am
 
I have been disfellowshiped for 10 years and i am sadden by this hardened view! I remember starting in 1974-1980 a much more merciful attititude was displayed and many came back.This is so so very sad……
Reply
 
 
 Nancy Tufo says:

 August 4, 2013 at 12:26 pm
 
Wow! I was the only one out of all my family members who became a JW. I wanted to study the bible. I believed that by getting baptized I might get closer to the truth. I was a Jehovah’s Witness for about twenty years. I am not disfellowshipped which is very interesting to me as I am posting my contention all over the internet.
 I cannot begin to imagine the mental storm children of Jehovah’s Witnesses have gone through. There are many explanations of scripture that they insist are true that make no sense. The bible is meant to be understood as a whole. But there is mom and dad insisting that what they are teaching their child is God’s Word. Then the child gets baptized to please his parents and to feel welcome as one of the group. He grows up and learns to think on his own and discovers the uncomfortable feeling he had about some things was right. Now what does he do? What if he is not old enough yet to break away?
 Then there are mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers who must chose between being true to their own conscience or being true to their offspring. You do know it is not uncommon that when a person leaves for truth of conscious her family members that she leaves, who do not know truth, stay behind, do you not? I cannot imagine being torn like that. Many people stay because they believe family is more important than their own peace of mind.
 I am so very happy I did not have to choose AGAIN like I chose when I became a JW. But my family never shunned me even though they all hated what I was doing. And now they are so sweet! Nobody said “I told you so”. They say “Whatever makes you happy!” God bless them!
Reply
 
 
 Joann King says:

 August 9, 2013 at 6:42 am
 
It’s really criminal what they are doing, and in the end, Karma will come for them.
Yet I know in my bones, I have to move on, I have to take my life back and not worry about my relatives that are still in, they have made their decision and I have made mine and I’m okay with that now. I got to live my life right here, right now and enjoy every moment, or else I have allow this disgusting organization to even rob me of that and they have stolen way too much time from me already, won’t let them take anymore.
Reply
 
 
 Admin Jeni says:

 August 9, 2013 at 9:37 am
 
The thing that really gets me is that the children are raised with this threat of shunning. They are even trained in the proper method to do it to others. Everything is so black and white. Compormise is seen as a sin. There is no “agree to disagree” with the Watchtower. This hardly seems a good way to raise a child. I was raised this way and still find myself having to overcome being programed not to be empathetic towards others.
If a grown adult wants to ignore another grown adult relative or not, then sadly enough that is their decision. However, children are being encouraged to develop this same mindset and do the same. I even remember being told to shun the unbaptized children of disfellowshipped ones growing up.
The Watchtower may say it’s your choice to associate or not. What they don’t tell the public is that if you do choose deal with DF’d and DA’d ones, others in the congregation will exercise their “choice” and stop associating with YOU.
Reply
 
 
 george says:

 August 10, 2013 at 2:47 am
 
Hello Cedar, I thought the good people who read your excellent site should know the following:
1. According to the Watchtower’s latest slick film “The Prodigal Returns”‘ ANYONE who doesn’t follow bible teachings, even if they are good people, are bad associations!
2. I was disfellowshipped way back in 1994. I have gone on to live a full life, gaining a good education and creating a life of decency and conscience free of the GB and their pernicious lies.
I live with my mum in the family home. I am in my 40s. My father, who was never a witness, died 2 years ago on the 9.8.11.
Last week, my sister needed to take my mum into town. The only day she was free was the day that a young witness girl and her brother come to clean the house and the windows respectively.
I was already told not to talk to them, which I have followed.
This time, with my mum out of the house, I had to open the door to the young lady. I explained that mum had to go out, and offered the lady the opportunity to leave, or come back another day. She freely decided to continue. I retired to my room and left her to her work.
Later, after I thought she had left, I came downstairs and watched some tv. The young siblings were together, so I just ignored them as they want.
The young lady chose the anniversary of Dad’s death to inform my mum by telephone that she felt “uncomfortable” and will not clean for my mum anymore.
On the same day, the elders called and my mum will be having a shepherding call this afternoon.
I no longer care what the GB et al think of me, but my mum was and is really upset.
What should I do to calm this troubled sea?
Your advice, and that of the other commenters, would be gratefully received.
Best Wishes, George
Reply
 
 

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“Shun your disfellowshipped loved ones!”: Shocking District Convention talk hits YouTube
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Posted on July 31, 2013
 
A 2013 District Convention talk ordering Witnesses to shun disfellowshipped relatives has been uploaded to YouTube

A talk by a Watchtower representative urging the shunning of relatives is sending shockwaves through the online JW community.
Recorded at one of the 2013 “God’s Word Is Truth” District Conventions in California, the speaker instructs Witnesses to shun family members, even children, as an act of loyalty.
In his Saturday-afternoon talk entitled “The Truth Brings ‘Not Peace, But a Sword’,” Wallkill Bethel representative Steven Bell laid the blame for the heartache of shunning squarely at the feet of those who are disfellowshipped.
“Resist self-blame,” Bell told an audience of thousands of Witnesses. “We may think that we’re at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Each person has to have a personal relationship with Jehovah. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped, it’s because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.”
Since being uploaded less than 24 hours ago, the video has already received thousands of views and has provoked an angry backlash on JW forums and Facebook groups – especially among those who are currently being shunned.


Video transcript available on this link.
Ironically, even though the above talk openly encourages divisions between families on religious grounds, the official handbill circulated by Jehovah’s Witnesses to promote the convention posed the following question on its front cover…


Bell’s talk, which was based on an outline provided for him by the Teaching Committee of the Governing Body, draws on Christ’s words in Matthew 10:34,35 to suggest that Witnesses should expect their beliefs to cause family divisions.
In using this scripture, the Governing Body are implying that all who are disfellowshipped from Jehovah’s Witnesses oppose God and Jesus and should therefore be shunned. Failure to shun family members who are former Witnesses is to be considered an act of disloyalty against God.
“What does Jehovah expect out of us, even if the situation is so painful that we have a family member who is disfellowshipped? What does he want?” asks Bell. “Loyalty, that’s what Jehovah wants. Jehovah knows that this is a difficult time in our life, but he wants loyalty.”
Loyalty to the Watch Tower Society is thus to be considered equal to loyalty to God.
Emotional blackmail admitted
Those who oppose Watchtower’s practice of shunning former members point to the fact that it essentially constitutes emotional blackmail. The purpose of disfellowshipping is, they say, not to restore the person’s relationship with God, but to blackmail the person into returning to the organization by holding his family hostage. Interestingly, this is precisely how disfellowshipping is presented in Bell’s talk.
Rather than being aimed at helping the individual, shunning holds a person’s family hostage until they comply with the Society’s wishes

“When someone is disfellowshipped,” explains Bell, “one of the reasons they want to come back into Jehovah’s organization is to associate with the brothers and sisters in the congregation and likely to associate with their family. So if we associate with them when they’re disfellowshipped, we could actually be taking away from them a motivating factor for wanting to be reinstated.”
Bell then attempts to drive his point home with a bizarre hypothetical scenario in which a disfellowshipped person is finally reinstated and promptly criticizes his family for not shunning him fully. Many have already commented on how unlikely this scenario would be.
“Just imagine now if we didn’t remain loyal and we talk to them [the disfellowshipped person] and associate with them,” suggests Bell. “Could you imagine the feeling we would have the night they were reinstated, and they walked up to us and said: ‘Why weren’t you loyal to Jehovah when I was disfellowshipped?’ That would cut us at our heart! But what joy you would have if they walked up and said, ‘Thank you for being loyal to Jehovah! Your example motivated me to return to serve Jehovah!’ Remember, in all cases, being loyal to Jehovah is the most important thing.”
Misrepresentation to the outside world
The recording of the shunning talk was just one of a series of audio files that were made available to JWsurvey.org. Interestingly, an announcement was read out at the start of the convention, which stated: “Any recordings of this program should be for your personal use or for the benefit of those unable to be present. Recordings should not be made available for general circulation, or distribution.”
Anyone who listens to the shunning talk will understand the Society’s concern in wanting to keep a lid on what instructions are given to Witnesses behind closed doors. Like many religious organizations, Watchtower is acutely image conscious, and wants to make sure it can control the facade it presents to the outside world – even if this involves using deception.
A 2011 clipping from the Independent

For example, in 2011 a journalist for the Independent quizzed Watchtower representative Rick Fenton on whether the Society ostracizes (or shuns) so-called apostates. Fenton replied by describing ostracization as a “personal matter for each individual to decide for himself.” Then, in early 2013, another Watchtower representative by the name of Vincent Toole described shunning as a “myth” when questioned by an Australian reporter. (click here for article)
Even the Society’s official website, JW.org, goes to considerable lengths to conceal the extent of its shunning practices. In its FAQ section under the question “Do You Shun Former Members of Your Religion?” an evasive answer is given that leaves the reader bewildered and none the wiser. The four-paragraph ‘answer’ can be summarized as follows:
◾Paragraph 1: talks about how inactive Witnesses are not shunned, even though the question specifically refers to “former members.”
◾Paragraph 2: ignores the fact that the question is about shunning entirely and discusses the judicial process, mentioning that not everyone who sins is disfellowshipped.
◾Paragraph 3: mentions that family heads are not subject to shunning – one of only two loopholes that is provided (the other being children that are too young to leave home).
◾Paragraph 4: sums up by explaining that disfellowshipped persons are invited to meetings, ignoring the fact that nobody will be allowed to speak to them, including their family members, which is shunning.
But the Society hasn’t just lied about its practice of shunning and shied away from discussing it on its official website. This new YouTube video highlights a quote from a 2009 Awake! magazine that lambasted other religions for causing family divisions, thus implying that those who choose to become Witnesses will never face this predicament.

“No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.” – g7/09 p.29
If only Watchtower could itself live up to the standards it expects from other faiths.
The backlash begins
Predictably, many current and former Witnesses who have seen the video have been saddened and outraged by it. Those who are themselves on the receiving end of shunning have especially expressed their dismay that this is the sort of propaganda their Witness family members are being pummelled with.
Of course, there is nothing unusual in the actual instructions conveyed in the talk. Those who are familiar with the Witness faith know about the extent to which shunning is enforced, and that it is principally intended as emotional blackmail. What makes the talk unusual is the manner in which the speaker brazenly and forcefully spells out that shunning is something Witnesses are compelled to do, even to children, in total contradiction of the image Watchtower seeks to portray to outsiders.
Now the talk is being circulated on YouTube, it is hoped that more non-JWs will be made aware of the enormous pressure Witnesses are under to inflict misery and heartache on their disfellowshipped loved ones – all in the name of “loyalty.”
It is also hoped that Steven Bell, who so passionately and enthusiastically defended the harmful policies of his Governing Body masters, does not rise any higher up the Watchtower leadership chain. If he were to ever become a Governing Body member himself, based on this talk, I shudder to think how further radicalized the organization might become in the future.
 


 
 
 
 
Further reading…
◾PDF transcript of Steven Bell’s talk: English | Portuguese
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
◾An Open Letter to Jehovah’s Witnesses, by Robert Crompton
◾Stephanie Hammond’s blog article “Shunning the Shunners”
◾Patheos.com article
Related videos…








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← Disfellowshipped but NOT reported: UK pedophile subjected boys to “truly wicked” acts
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112 Responses to “Shun your disfellowshipped loved ones!”: Shocking District Convention talk hits YouTube

← Older Comments
Newer Comments →
 
 george says:

 August 10, 2013 at 4:54 am
 
Mum is in shepherding call right now! I am concerned about her, this all coming on the anniversary of Dad’s passing. Anyone have any advice on how I should proceed?
On the wider topic, no one ever looks at how Jesus handled talking with people!!
Off hand he spoke with:
Satan, Judas Iscariot, a Samaritan woman, Pontius Pilate, sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors etc
In short, Jesus spoke with everyone! There was no one he wouldn’t talk to!
Surely, as Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses should follow his example above all others and talk to everyone too.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 August 10, 2013 at 8:41 am
 
Hello George, I’m sorry you’re going through this. It sounds like you handled the situation perfectly by giving the woman the choice to clean the home with you in it or return another day. Neither you or your Mum can hardly be blamed for any perceived “contact” that followed.
Sadly, there is no rhyme or reason to the way many elders think and act. Some are liberal and avoid getting involved in petty problems, whereas others relish the same as opportunities to impose their authority. Once an authoritarian elder has a bee in his bonnet about something, there can be no stopping him. If I were in your shoes, I would just roll with it.
Perhaps when things quieten down you can remind your mother of what happened and how poorly the situation was handled – particularly coming on the anniversary of your father’s death.
Cedars
Reply
 
 
 
 george says:

 August 10, 2013 at 3:50 pm
 
Thank you very much for your good advice. The elders were very kind to mum, apparently, for which I am pleased. They simply reiterated that she is not to discuss “spiritual” things with me.
It is strange to be affected by them after all the time and life experiences I have had. Luckily for me, my Mum is the only one in my family that is a JW. I have genuine pity for those poor souls whose entire family are JWs.
I really appreciate your even handed approach to the whole problem of unaccountable power married with a lack of true understanding. I will continue to rely upon your decency and moral standing to alert me to their latest machinations. With respect and gratitude, george
Reply
 
 
 TheSkeptic says:

 August 10, 2013 at 4:07 pm
 
I’d like to note that the uncomfortable part from the young “sister” may be due to Victorian etiquette that a single sister would not be alone in the presence of a man–single or married, even with your mother present, if the young lady felt so inclined. However, if she’s stating her discomfort coming to the house with a d/f Witness interaction that’s regrettable. I would also suggest that since you’re doing well in life, you come to your mother’s rescue by scheduling a cleaning service–paid, or other provisions that local charities and government services provide.
One additional note, you mention you abide by the GB’s rule not to talk with Witnesses. Why? If you don’t care about the GB or what their opinion of you, why follow their silly rules regarding shunning? Bear hug them, and walk away, chuckling, when they are aghast and scrambling to run.
Reply
 
 
 george says:

 August 12, 2013 at 5:27 am
 
That is a fair question. Although I do not care about the GB or the rest, my mother does. I have to bear in mind that if I go round bear hugging JWs, then it’s pretty likely that my mum will be hauled over the coals, or at least be viewed negatively. My mum could not survive without the witnesses. She needs them in her life.
Also, I have no desire to cause others distress. If I were to get in the faces of Witnesses, then I would be accomplishing nothing but reenforcing their negative attitudes. They would not benefit from it.
My stance is right for me. It keeps the witnesses off my mum’s back, and allows the witnesses to hopefully see that an ex witness is not a diner with demons, but an ordinary person.
Reply
 
 
 george says:

 August 27, 2013 at 6:11 am
 
Hello folks, I have just finished looking at the shepherding the flock of god book. It says clearly that staying in touch with disfellowshipped family members will NOT result in disciplinary action if you don’t
1. Discuss spiritual things with them
 2. Openly criticise the disfellowshipping.
Of course, your standing in the congregation will be affected.
So there is scope to talk to relatives. Only trouble is, the non elders can’t read this book!
They are trying to cover themselves from any litigation etc.
Reply
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 August 28, 2013 at 8:12 am
 
George,
 I wanted to acknowledge the respect and consideration that you are giving your mother and her well-being. You are treating her with kindness and your gentle spirit are pleasing to our King. It sounds like you are handling things well, and it is good to know that you can maintain a relationship with your mother. You are to be commended for respecting her beliefs and recognizing her need for the JW’s in her life. I’m in a similar situation with one of my sisters. However, I am also being called to rescue my parents, who know better.
 Keep your mild and humble attitude. Being rude to JW’s, mocking them or purposely confronting them just to cause discomfort, would only prove their teachings to be true. By acting like a decent and forgiving human being, you are proving them wrong! Good work. Thanks for the example!
 (From an ordinary, run of the mill apostate, never baptized, but still being shunned by my sister, who is controlled by fear and confusion)
Reply
 
 
 
 george says:

 August 27, 2013 at 6:20 am
 
The relevant page is 116.
I’m not defending the WTBTS. I know that the elders will come round and really emotionally blackmail anyone who does keep contact.
If you re a brother and want to promoted, forget it! You won’t be in good standing. But they can’t disfellowship you!
I hope this may be of some use and comfort to those facing, as I do, the fact that they are disfellowshipped and have family in the witnesses still.
Cedars, any chance that you could quote the passage as part of your article?
Reply
 
 
 george says:

 August 28, 2013 at 11:45 am
 
Thanks, faithful witness. I don’t think that the witnesses should be shunning you if you weren’t baptised! Cedars, am I right that only baptised people are shunned by family?
You have my sincere sympathy, faithful witness. I really hope that the work of Cedars and others may bring some positive changes. All the best.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 August 28, 2013 at 11:48 am
 
“Cedars, am I right that only baptised people are shunned by family?”
Officially, that’s correct. However, as we all know, anyone can be labelled “bad association” and shunned whether baptized or not.
Reply
 
 
 
 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 August 28, 2013 at 12:37 pm
 
Cedars August 28, 2013 at 11:48 am
“Cedars, am I right that only baptised people are shunned by family?”
“Officially, that’s correct. However, as we all know, anyone can be labelled “bad association” and shunned whether baptized or not”
I believe you mean “Marking” which is a long standing policy of slander that I never really understood as being official or unofficial but is very real!
As is slander itself whether slander per se, by simply saying “This person is a no good such and such!” Also from the platform in the form of repeated “local needs” or focused warnings etc. Sometimes rather elaborate schemes, violence and the police are involved as a rouse.
 Active slander, by involving themselves in the lives and affairs in such a way that it works out that so and so gets arrested and his name appears in the paper, his wife leaves him and just happens…to file a restraining order and the Elders are “forced” to convene” a judicial committee.
 Applied slander, No one will sit with this person or talk to them. If anyone does “by accident?” The will overtly get up in view of everyone in a public scene and move to demonstrate the ostracism.
 Tacit slander, The Elders and Servants as well as the Congregation at large may all possibly participate knowingly or unwittingly in the above forms of slander regularly and approve of it or any of the many perfected means that the congregations have established over the years….
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 August 28, 2013 at 12:44 pm
 
Hi Konrad – no I don’t just mean marking. The question was to do with whether non-baptized people can be shunned. Obviously unbaptized members of a congregation are susceptible to neither shunning nor marking, but they can still be classed as “bad association” and given the same treatment.
Reply
 
 
 
 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 August 28, 2013 at 1:08 pm
 
That’s absolutely true and for many years unbaptized people could even suffer the same consequences of disassociation until the late 80’s or early 90’s I believe when the Society changed the policy…simply for choosing to study but not commit!
Reply
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 August 29, 2013 at 10:31 am
 
That was us… Students who never committed. Our bible teacher would actually threaten my husband when they were alone. “Do you want to sentence your entire family to be cut off at Armageddon, or are you going to start making some progress here?”
Reply
 
 
 
 george says:

 August 29, 2013 at 6:10 am
 
Thanks, Cedars. Ah, the catch all of “bad associations”. The context shows that it’s people in the congregation, but it is widened or shrunk to fit whichever group they detest and fear.
As I’ve mentioned in a previous post, the new feature film The Prodigal Returns, states in the interview section that anyone who doesn’t follow bible principles is a bad association. They should really be shunning EVERYONE who isn’t a witness!
That would make the preaching work problematic! So it’s ok to be charming and appear concerned to convert others, but woe betide them if they don’t agree or even worse fall away!
The passage in the shepherding book can’t be seen by ordinary publishers. They don’t know that they can get away with contact. However, from what Cedars is saying, they may not be able to disfellowship you, but they can mark you and shun you anyway.
I remember studying the Salem Witch Trials as part of my degree. When the accusations began to fly, there was one case I remember.
A Rich man’s daughter was accused. The father immediately threatened to sue in the secular courts. The charges were dropped.
Maybe it’s time to start suing the WTBTS for mental cruelty from the shunning their ex members receive! Surely there must be some legal redress?
Reply
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 August 29, 2013 at 10:29 am
 
My husband and I were called “open-hearted ones,” when we were studying with the JW’s. When we asked too many questions, and directed our questions at the society itself, that label changed. Suddenly, we were “too educated and full of ourselves to submit” to Jehovah’s (read “The Watchtower’s”) commands. They don’t like independent thinkers.
My brother in law accused us of “turning our backs on Jehovah (again, “Watchtower”), and decided that the correct course of action, was to avoid us. My sister called me and told me she had to protect her children from me, and had a hard time explaining our apostasy and idolatry.
My story is mild, compared to many. I need to write my own blog. Haha. Anyway, it just got worse. Last night, I discovered that my mom is also likely baptized. This is a sad realization for me, since I was thinking there might be hope for her. No true, unconditional love comes from a true Jehovah’s Witness. Sadly, these are the only living grandparents we have for my kids.
I’m so grateful for God’s direction in my life. I was led back to the REAL TRUTH, because of the questions raised by the JW’s.
Thank you, Cedars, for standing on guard and informing us all of the Watchtower happenings. I am following your site with great interest, and have quoted you in conversations with my parents.
Reply
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 August 29, 2013 at 10:41 am
 
I wanted to add, since I’m sure there might be some here, who are going through a lot more pain and anguish than I am over this issue… I have forgiven them. They don’t know better.
I know it might sound condescending, but my brother in law is really just trying to do the right thing. He has earned a new pin on his spiritual lapel, having chosen “Jehovah’s organization” over an apostate family member. I get it. I was bitter for a long time, but I have been washed with a new compassion for him and his situation.
I believe that God is directing this, and he does want me to lead them out of this abusive and controlling religion… But it will not be in my timing. I need reminders to be humble and patient. I don’t have to be right, or win any debates. The evidence and the truth are available to all who seek it. Thank you, God, for showing us the light, before we jumped into the pool.
The July 15 magazine, is going to be the first major prophecy shift that my family has to accommodate. I’m hoping that their eyes will be opened. You can’t build a solid foundation (or tower) on shifting sands. Where in the bible, is there evidence of prophecies that shift? Have any of the WTS predictions come true? Anyone?
Reply
 
 
 JBob says:

 August 29, 2013 at 4:47 pm
 
FW, your tale of distress is typical; no one can come into direct contact with Witnesses and leave untouched or wounded. You will either assimilate or be annihilated is the world view, thus if choose not to continue with JW’s there’s a label for you depending on their grading sluices for you–unable to grasp the fine truths of the Watchtower, blinded by Satan, sheep, opposed to Jehovah / Watchtower. It has to be done THE WAY of the Watchtower and no deviation, or it is Satanic. Black. White. There is no gray. Those who are not with us are against us.
Reply
 
 
 
 JBob says:

 August 29, 2013 at 4:29 pm
 
Based on observations over the years.
The deal with shunning or disciplining of unbaptized individuals is the degree of involvement and recognition by the “outsiders” that a person was/is JW. Persons who studied, maybe attended meetings, etc would still be regarded as candidates for future visits but not invited regularly to social gatherings if they ceased to study because they fall into “worldly association” category. If a person went into field service/ministry work, that person would garner an announcement that they were no longer considered as associated with Witnesses and in some cases shunned if they denounced the doctrines of Witnesses [say, dropped JW’s after reading something on the Internet or decided that their libertine lifestyle was more “fun” than being a staid and frumpy Witness].
If the individual decides after observing the ministry, etc, they fall into the weak category and remain eligible for occasional visits to achieve stimulation into activity/action unless it was inability to cease “conduct unbecoming” behaviors then that person goes to “marked” and association and visits cease. Lighting up a doobie during your last Bible Study with Witnesses, as an example. Or, propping your feet up on your New Age Occult altar.
Children of Witnesses were a different matter and therein lies the reference to the compulsory service video Cedars posted awhile back. At some point, the “older men” of the congregation may decide a certain unbaptized child is no longer fit association and depending on the severity of the “sins” publicly denounce or privately discipline for marking. If the kid was duped into baptism, it can be any of the various forms of discipline from private restrictions to public humiliation and “scarlet letter” shame. The point of all this from congregational and pastoral perspective is “keeping the organization clean” [nevermind the pedophiles], but from a secular view, it’s about control, domination and influence over minds through intimidation.
From child’s perspective, it was always better to string along the congregation until maturity age and one could finally move out and away without “taking a stand” and thus becoming ostracized for not meeting the lofty standards and ideal Witness behaviors expected. Thus, the diatribe from GB to compel parents to force their kids into ministry and ultimately baptism.
Also, JW meeting places can not be categorized as a “welcoming congregation” from the LGBT perspective or any other because the primary purpose of meetings is recruiting and maintaining the indoctrination of those recruited/converted. Yes, there is the greeting of visitors with smiles and handshakes but all for singular goal of recruiting.
Reply
 
 
 
 george says:

 August 30, 2013 at 9:10 am
 
Yes, JBob, they are salesmen, with sales men’s smiles. Kind when it suits them, cruel the rest of the time.
Cedars, have any group commissioned a psychological assessment of shunning? There should be some research on this somewhere. Maybe it’s something the AAWA, or whatever their title is could pay for one? Nothing thumps a lie better than accredited, verifiable data!!
There is a famous experiment where blue eyed and brown eyed people are separated and given ruler and ruled status. It doesn’t take too long for the horror to begin.
Keep up the good fight!
Reply
 
 
 Perico de los palotes says:

 September 8, 2013 at 3:56 pm
 
Sad but truth ! I am dfw. right now and trying to get back into the organization but mainly to get my family and particularly my kids back. I do love Jehovah but I am tired of all of this crap and tirant elders ! I used to be an elder and bethelite, so I do know a lot more than the regular members.
Reply
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 September 8, 2013 at 4:10 pm
 
It is sickening that they are using your family to blackmail you back into the organization. Knowing what you know about them, I’m curious why you would go back. Would it please Jehovah, if you serve them again?
Do Jehovah’s Witnesses have the one true religion? What can you share with us to convince us? I was unable to reach that conclusion.
Reply
 
 JDub says:

 September 8, 2013 at 5:50 pm
 
Speaking of Jehovah, the one true Midianite god, I saw a recent historical documentary on the validity and factual nature of the first series of biblical texts and by extension the factual nature of early Christian viewpoints on whom Jesus would be. It seems the early Christian history is not as “pure” as the Watchtower and other denominations would have us believe. Gospels that were ordered destroyed, yet secretly stashed in caves, tell the tale of a diverse Christian community. It gives the Watchtower an “out” in inventing its ideology and theology, but skewers when it comes to the claim of a single path to God.
On a sidebar note, years prior to the Millerite movement that eventually gave us the wart–Watchtower–a group known as The Harmony Society arrived from Germany (chased out by Lutherans) under the leading intellect of George Rapp. Their belief was that the mass of wars in early 1800’s was a prelude to the end of the world–expected in their lifetimes and before 1844. George Rapp died just a little after 1844, in 1847 if memory serves. The Harmony Society settled into western and middle Pennsylvania creating astounding business and economic success and driving establishment of various railroads to service these industries. Like the counterpart Mormon religion in Upstate New York, the Harmony Society began to migrate westward into The Indiana Territory before reaching its demise (mainly due to its view of celibacy as a virtue and curious difficulty recruiting adherents).
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Minsha says:

 September 8, 2013 at 11:10 pm
 
Better yet, at the convention I attended, it was announced that an audio recording would be made available to each congregation. Perhaps the wife could request to borrow her local congregation’s copy, to hear for herself?
Reply
 
 Minsha says:

 September 8, 2013 at 11:14 pm
 
My comment was intended as a reply to Zeebo… Apparently the iPad browser is not processing the “reply” link properly…
Reply
 
 
 
 Perico de los palotes says:

 September 22, 2013 at 7:47 pm
 
Es triste, pero una muy penosa realidad en la organizacion y cruel forma de disciplina que estoy seguro Jehova no aprueba, sobre todo en los que se arrepienten de corazon y aun asi tienen que esperar minimo un ano o mas dependiendo de los ancianos…….porque ese es otro obstaculo para regresar, los ancianos ! Pero si fuistes “amigo” de ellos puedes regresar en solo unos meses…..que ironia !
Reply
 
 
 Delock Jones says:

 October 5, 2013 at 10:21 am
 
We need another Raymond Franz!
Reply
 
 
 Rachel says:

 October 6, 2013 at 1:28 pm
 
I am currently going through a living hell right now. I was born and raised witness, every single person in my family except 1 uncle was apart of the church. My 2 sisters and my mother has left. I left the church and was disfellowshipped am now shunned. I left my abusive and cheating husband we have a now 16 year old daughter and he has a 20 year old son who I adopted. I have had my children taken away from me by my family and haven’t been allowed to see them in over 4 years, no photos, no letters, nothing. I lost my entire family. I was told that if I wanted to see my kids and family again I had to come back to the church. After being in the church for 29 years I now see how much of a cult like feel they actually have.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 October 7, 2013 at 1:14 am
 
I’m sorry to hear you’re going through such pain Rachel. Please know that there are many in situations similar to yours. I would strongly recommend that you send an email to support@aawa.co – there you should find some comfort and advice.
Reply
 
 
 
 Rachel says:

 October 11, 2013 at 11:46 am
 
I just came home from work and someone stopped by and put a folded up Watchtower, out of date as well, in my door with a paragraph marked discussing how parents decisions affect their children. This is harassment and unreal. Leave me alone you already have my children what more do they want.
Reply
 
 
 Mary Dingel says:

 November 8, 2013 at 7:33 pm
 
Much respect to all who visit here and in particular to Cedars. I have never been a JW. However I have done the studies to the point of decision. Luckily for me, at that time I was about to get married to my childhood sweetheart and I was told to instead find a man in the “Truth”
I was bewildered as they had never met my future Partner, how could they write him off and devalue him so crudely?
 Maybe he would have made a great Witness, even become an Elder. Anyway, It caused me to do some research before I made the “leap of faith” and I was “saved”. Most of my family are JW’s including my older and younger Brothers and they baptized my Son and now my Grand Kids.
 Luckily, I have learned to be careful what I say so as not to awaken the beast. I have no plan to encourage them to leave the “Truth” but I need to be around to give them the critical loving support if they are ever thrown out of this speeding vehicle. Time is longer than rope as the 144,000 are no more yet I am still here.
 It occurred to me as I watched and learned much from exJW’s on Youtube etc; I have been impressed by how patient, loving, even handed, truthful and decent most of them are (particularly in this Blog), could it be that becoming an apostate is finally achieving the “Truth” and being a JW is only a part of the journey? I would be honoured to be regarded as your Sister. Thank you all for the depth of your compassion and humanity.
Reply
 
 
 Vincent law says:

 November 13, 2013 at 5:20 pm
 
Many jehovah witnesses develop ptsd and particulary post traumatic embiterment dissorder why because they have had there identity stripped away.
 They all suffer totalitarian abuse
 So many feel hopeless and have low self esteem particulary as they where not allowed to mix with non believers and mainly had little education so mental illness is fourfold to general population when are they going to take resposibility could I take out a lawsuit for emotional abuse……
Reply
 
 
 steven lemken says:

 December 11, 2013 at 8:44 pm
 
excellent article typical watchtower rhetoric i know i left the jws in 1993 my family wil not speak to me with the exception of my one brother but i am happy to be out of that rotten organization
Reply
 
 
 tlstatton says:

 December 27, 2013 at 5:02 am
 
I have posted my messages a number of times to let the truth about JW child cruelty from the 1950’s and beyond be told by one who suffered. I cannot express the damage my family, 2 brothers and I, suffered emotionally and mentally from our mother’s Watchtower brainwashing and total mind control. I wish I had the words to express the damage. When mind control and FEAR tactics (demons everywhere and Armageddon destruction) is present then there is no “freedom.” Nor, is there this “big happy loving family of “brothers and sisters” if the Watchtower rules their entirelife like it did when I was a young child.
Reply
 
 
 aussies says:

 February 4, 2014 at 9:17 pm
 
I could not refrain from commenting. Perfectly written!
Reply
 
 
 mvs says:

 March 6, 2014 at 1:07 pm
 
I agree – I have family members who have returned to the Organization ONLY because they want to associate with the family NOT because they love Jehovah or the Watchtower; forcing them to live a double life. Why would a religious organization Force people to act hypocritically. I think they are more interested in the watchtower numbers than the real interest or spirituality of the person. (p.s. I have become inactive and slowly fading..)
Reply
 
 
 Paul March says:

 March 6, 2014 at 1:27 pm
 
I was disfellowshipped in 2002, over a personal problem called depression and accused of not put our hevenly father (Jehovah) first and had to appear before a judicial commite of four elders who were quite aware of my mental health problems, and they off-quoted sciptures to me saying I haven’t trusted God enough, I left that Kingdom Hall that evening feeling really numb and confused and frightened. That talk I have just heard Steven Bell ranting over has made me somewhat annoyed with the WT&BTS.I am now glad I’m no longer with a bunch of false prophets who claim to know what Christian love is all about !!!
Reply
 
 
 Mark says:

 March 29, 2014 at 2:45 am
 
Similarly here in the United Kingdom disfellowshipping or the act of shunning or to cause harassment or distress to a person based on religious or non-religious grounds is against the law.
There are ways for us to take action although I’m of the firm belief that rather than do this individually, we should all get together en masse and submit a massive complaint to the police and the government on a set date, at a set time, and let the media know of our collective action prior to the event taking place for more exposure.
Further information about this is available on the following links which you might want to copy and paste into a new tab:
Report Hate Crime:https://www.gov.uk/report-hate-crime
Discrimination: Your rights & types of discrimination: https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights
How you be discriminated against: https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights/how-you-can-be-discriminated-against
What you can do:https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights/what-you-can-do
You can report hate crime here:http://report-it.org.uk/your_police_force
Internet Hate Crime: Offensive Material and the Law:http://www.report-it.org.uk/reporting_internet_hate_crime
Incidentally, if you find any material on JW.org which you find offensive as a disfellowshipped or disassociated individual and you are currently being shunned completely you might want to contact Amazon.com who host JW.org on their servers.
It is very highly likely that Amazon.com have their own rules about hate speech and discrimination online in their terms of service, so if you find an article or a quote at JW.org particularly offensive to you as an individual, do ensure you complain to Amazon directly as they have the power, if enough complaints are received, to take the official JW.org website offline rendering it temporarily disabled. (Which again could create some great media coverage to highlight the very sad situation many of us find ourselves in, being bullied as we are by the JW’s and the WTBTS for years on end).
Organisations that can help here in the UK if you feel discriminated against on religious grounds:http://www.report-it.org.uk/organisations_that_can_help
Racist or Religious Hate Crime: What is racist or religious hate crime?:http://www.report-it.org.uk/racist_or_religious_hate_crime1
“Hate crimes and incidents are any crime or incident which is targeted at a victim because of the offender’s hostility or prejudice against an identifiable group of people.
So any incident or crime which is perceived to be motivated because of a person’s race, ethnicity or religion – either their actual ethnicity/religion or ethnicity/religion as perceived by the offender – will be recorded as such. Hate crimes can be committed against a person or property.
A racist or religious hate crime is: Any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on a person’s religion or perceived religion.”
How can I report an incident?
Details on how to report an incident and what you can report is available on the ‘Report a hate crime’ page. You can use a self reporting form or complete the online form on the ‘Reporting online’ page. You may also be able to report incidents through the organisations listed on this website on the ‘Organisations that can help’ page.
By reporting it, you may be able to prevent these incidents from happening to someone else.
Reporting makes a difference…to you, your friends, your community and your life.
 How will the Police and CPS treat Racist and Religious Hate Crime?
The Police and other criminal justice agencies consider all hate crime to be very serious, including racist and religious hate crime. When a case is prosecuted, the courts can impose a stronger sentence under powers from the Criminal Justice Act 2003. This reflects the priority placed on these crimes. The Police have performance targets and measures in place to ensure the service they offer is of the highest standard.
The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) is the organisation that takes cases through the court system. They have produced guidance on Racist and Religious Hate Crime that is available on the ‘Prosecuting hate crimes’ page of this website (opens in new window). – http://www.report-it.org.uk/racist_or_religious_hate_crime1
Reply
 
 
 Danny Hatfield says:

 May 22, 2014 at 8:20 am
 
A few days ago, as I drove past a neighbor she smiled and waved. As a normal, neighborly gesture I returned the simple wave. I was immediately chastised for doing so because, “You can’t do that! She is disfellowshipped!”
When I was DF’d years ago a “special” talk was given admonishing the congregation that it was improper to even make eye contact at an intersection with “a disfellowshipped person.” Another case a fellow had suffered a severe head injury after being DF’d. After a late night meeting I saw him struggling to walk several miles home, in a driving thunderstorm. When I offered him a safe ride home he refused because, “The elders might see and then both of us will never get back in, because we associated.” It was only a flipping ride I offered. This kind of unkind, judgmental attitude is fostered by the leadership of the organization. And that leadership doesn’t seem to be Jesus.
Reply
 
 
 Fritz says:

 June 14, 2014 at 10:56 am
 
seems like every few years they crack down on shunning. since the 70’s i remember how my mom would flip flop in relation to my siblings who left the organzation. one year she would talk to them and the next it was taboo again, another couple years and it was ok again. hurts my head thinking about it.
Reply
 
 
 patricia watson says:

 July 10, 2014 at 7:42 am
 
My now husband and I have been df and it is so funny when they say come to the elders with issues your are having and they will help you so when we went to them they decided that they were going to df us any ways only because I the woman would not disclose to these perverts how and what was done in the bedroom when we did the deed. I mean they asked him di you (CUM) did we have Oral sex and was I on top of Him of not I mean ?WHY do they need to know this they keeo pn saying the viewing porn is a NO NO but wanting to know the details of our encounter is that still not a mental porn image when they go home and remember the details given? Well in short it has not been 4 plus years and they also state that since me the woman is not being humble with the questions asked it might take 20 years before a re-instatement be granted to us so we are coping and we are happy in out marriage and we know that God is not the organization and that he loves you because we have repented of our sin and we know he has forgiven us. Have a blessed day.
Reply
 
 
 M. Rhodes says:

 July 10, 2014 at 2:43 pm
 
And they contradict themselves because if not shunning someone meant they had no reason to come back, then the hypothetical returnee wouldn’t have returned to ask why he hadn’t been shunned. According to Watchtower reasoning, faithfully shunning (psychologically abusing) a family member is the key to their return to meetings, so Bell’s scenario falls flat.
Great emphasis is placed on loyalty to Jehovah and it is obvious this is a smokescreen for loyalty to Society teachings.
The power-hungry, deluded Governing Body seems to forget that believing in Jesus was the key to salvation, not attending modern-day Dub meetings.
For those who leave and who still believe in Christ, the scriptures tell of a very different outcome.
Jesus did not shun sinners but the harsh religious leaders did.
Reply
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 July 11, 2014 at 6:46 am
 
After years of “studying” with the wonderful friends we met at the Kingdom Hall, my husband and I came to the conclusion that we would never become members of the Organization. We decided to stop lying to them, and we stopped our study, and no longer attended meetings.
My sister came to the opposite conclusion about the “Truth,” and is now a devout JW.
I was cornered (alone, without my husband!) by my brother in law. He accused me of “turning my back on Jehovah.” They have stopped all communication from our family, labelled us as “apostates” and “idolators,” because we decided to go to church and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, over those of the Watchtower.
I have come to realize that when a JW uses the (blasphemous) term, “Jehovah,” he is not really referring to God the Father. Anytime the word “Jehovah” is muttered or spoken in the presence of a JW, his mind has been trained to think “Jehovah’s Organization.” They do not worship God, nor do they follow the teachings of Christ.
I am ashamed and sickened that I actually believed what they told me about Jesus.
Reply
 
 
 
 da' says:

 August 16, 2014 at 7:10 am
 
I have four (4) adult children and its obvious to me that even in view of the venom spewed by the gb (no caps for them) regarding associating with d/f or d/a, 3 have still chosen to show respect to me as their mother. That, and only that, would be the inspiration for any return.
Reply
 
 
 natalie says:

 August 20, 2014 at 2:09 am
 
Hi George – where did you find the shepherding the flock of god book? I would love to show it to a family member who is shunning other family members. It’s causing so much hurt and heartache and would be wonderful to continue to respect each others beliefs and have a loving relationship again. We just want everyone to be talking to each other again. The two are sisters and elderly and its affecting their health. They love each other very much.
Reply
 
 
 Jared Ian Sumrall says:

 September 25, 2014 at 3:24 pm
 
I believe it ironic that if I were to break the rules of commenting here, which I am not intending, I would be “disfellowshipped” from this message board. Why? Obviously to maintain order over unruliness. We are all governed by rules and our Creator has lovingly provided us warnings to keep us from serious harm. I do not keep company with offensive people. I ask Jehovah to help them the same way He helped me. By maintaining my life as I slowly sank to my own rebellious bottom.
 Anyway, long story short: I no longer do the things I used to do because I live by a growing sense of moral obligation to myself and my fellowman. I learn these morals everyday. If someone associated with me back then, it was because they were as sick as I was.
 Having said that, I rarely attend meetings although I was reinstated the July before last. I am scared my son will not be accepted because of who I am: a twice-convicted felon. Jehovah helps me along in leaps and bounds, but I will always possess certain traits that make me seemingly strange to others. I believe very strongly in evangelizing, so I won’t expect not to be “disfellowshipped” by the “gb” of this board. I simply have the desire and fortitude to shares my experience in the hopes it may assist those who are weak. In other words, “don’t look at me, look at the judge!”
I most sincerely apologize to those who take offense. I plan on developing my self-honesty, not my self-righteousness. This is an exercise in the expression of my heart among those whom I believe to be capable of offering judgement for the sole purpose of interpersonal growth in Christ. Confess your sins openly to one another type thing.
 Fear is not a part of healthy expressions of worship to our Father amongst our fellow Christians. Fear belongs to God. Not you or any other mothers’ sons.
 Again, I apologize for the expected reception of this sublimation. But at this finite point in my life, I believe strongly in honest expressions over rigid and self-righteous rhetoric. Just now my eyes have received the gift of a beautiful fire rainbow over the western horizon. Such beauty is only possible by the loving provisions of the One who will one day soon receive my last breath as He gave it.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 September 25, 2014 at 10:26 pm
 
Anybody who thinks being blocked from commenting on a website is equivalent to being arbitrarily cut off from his family and long-time friends, potentially for the rest of his life, is either delusional or doesn’t understand what shunning is, or how psychologically devastating it can be. Whatever point you’re trying to make, I and others who are ACTUALLY being shunned by our loved ones at the whim of the Governing Body would appreciate if you could express it in a less obscene and insensitive manner.
Reply
 
 
 
 Nancy says:

 September 26, 2014 at 3:06 am
 
Well, I see some similarities shared by shunning and what worldly people do. But the shunning of the loyal Jehovah’s Witnesses does not beat a person to death metaphorically speaking. They just leave you alone. The kind of anti-social behavior of ex-jehovah’s witnesses makes you feel like a lesser person than they are. And what is weird about it is they ALL seem to do it. I think your post was well thought out and from the heart. I appreciate it and you. Never expect any appreciation from former “believers”. It doesn’t exist.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 September 26, 2014 at 3:10 am
 
Is this a serious comment, or have I misread it in some way? Did you really suggest that shunning by JW loved ones isn’t devastating, they “just leave you alone?” What if I don’t want to be “left alone” by my father, sister, uncle, other extended family members simply because I no longer share their religious views?
Reply
 
 
 
 Nancy says:

 September 26, 2014 at 3:48 am
 
No. I didn’t say that. I said your kind of unfriendliness feels just as bad as shunning to some people. That is what the man said above and I think you received it very poorly. You do. You know?
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 September 26, 2014 at 3:54 am
 
If you didn’t say that, then what precisely did you mean by “they just leave you alone?” Who precisely is “they?”
As to “unfriendliness” I have news for you that you may not like. I am no longer in a cult that demands that I have compulsory love for everyone I encounter. I am now free to chose who my friends are. I certainly don’t need to embrace people who are stupid and narrow-minded enough to believe that being blocked from interacting with complete strangers on some random website is tantamount to having your family decimated by Watchtower’s immoral, unbiblical and abhorrent shunning policy.
Reply
 
 
 
 Nancy says:

 September 26, 2014 at 4:04 am
 
They leave you alone means loyal Jehovah’s Witnesses let you be. I don’t have generations of family members who are Jehovah’s Witnesses are so I can’t know the pain. I DO know the pain of being hated by former Jehovah’s Witnesses which is what the post was about. His post was not about what THEY do. It was about what YOU do. Am I wrong?
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 September 26, 2014 at 4:24 am
 
So I was right. If “they” are indeed loyal Witnesses, then “they just leave you alone” is an outrageously offensive and insensitive statement for those of us who are being shunned by loyal JW family members. As I mentioned before, I don’t WANT them to “leave me alone” or “let me be.” I want them in my life, irrespective of what they believe. And yes, I would prefer confrontation to silence, an opportunity to exchange views (however blunt or “unfriendly”) to total ostracism. Shunning is a COMPLETELY different matter to being blocked from a random website for ignoring its posting guidelines. That fact that you can’t see that indicates that you are either deluded or incapable of putting yourself in the shoes of others, or perhaps both.
Reply
 
 Nancy says:

 September 28, 2014 at 4:38 pm
 
Well I shouldn’t even try to explain because I see that no one is listening. Shunning means “I want nothing to do with you”. Jehovah’s Witnesses think like that because they BELIEVE God demands it. God. You know? Cedars even says it (I want nothing to so with you who are Jehovah Witness sympathisers) in his own words like most ex JWs on the internet do. Do they not do that? But he goes the extra yard and insults them at every opportunity. OK? Most just IGNORE us. He adds insults. I know what disfellowshipping means. I don’t know how it feels. The bad feelings it causes in some people seems to cause meanness. I have not met a kind ex JWs yet. Have you?
Reply
 
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 September 26, 2014 at 7:27 am
 
Nancy: I can see what you are saying, and agree that sometimes Cedars’ replies do come across as bitter and condescending. Perhaps you can try to have a little more compassion for his and others’ situations.
He is a new father, and he is separated from his entire family. He does not want to be left alone. He has done nothing to deserve this treatment from his family that he loves, yet he forgives them.
I don’t know if you are a JW, or just an interested person who visits this website.
I’m confused about why you are attacking this website and its guidelines for posting. Being welcomed to comment on jwsurvey, is not the same as being welcomed into the home of a family member that you truly love.
I have never been a JW, but since I studied the religion and chose not to join, my sister has now cut me off from her family. My kids have been cut off from their cousins that they love (young children who did NOT choose to become JW’s, but are forced to go to meetings). Our family has been ripped apart by the controlling policies of the Watchtower Organization.
Our family chose to follow Jesus and what the Bible REALLY does teach: Love and forgiveness. Other members of our family have chosen to serve an organization and make a stand against us.
I do NOT shun my sister. The gifts and cards I send, get returned. I have been instructed NOT to send gifts to her children, at any time (even when I ordered online and had it directly shipped to them).
I can choose if I want to visit this website or any other. If I want to post comments, it makes sense that they would be monitored by the administrator. Comments are allowed and encouraged here. I think the guidelines are reasonable and fair (I myself have been corrected by Cedars in the past).
I appreciate your comments. I am glad that this and other websites exist, so that JW’s, and those who have been affected by them and the Watchtower, can have a place to express their concerns and thoughts.
Are comments allowed by the Watchtower?
 If a sincere JW has a concern about something the Watchtower says or does, where can he voice his opinion?
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous says:

 September 26, 2014 at 5:29 am
 
Nancy, are you saying it’s the “former Jehovah’s Witnesses” who are shunning the “loyal Jehovah’s Witnesses?” That makes absolutely no sense to me and I have been one of these JW’s for almost 50 years. Are you familiar with the disfellowshipping policy at all?????
Reply
 
 
 Nancy says:

 September 28, 2014 at 4:42 pm
 
I am sorry I posted this to the last comment. Disgareeing is not allowed in or out of the JW organization. It’s a bad dream for sure.
Reply
 
 
 Nancy says:

 September 28, 2014 at 4:50 pm
 
It is not called shunning what the ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses do and they don’t do it to loyal JWs. They do it to other ex-JWs who do not take their side. And I suspect it feels a lot like shunning feels like. We were brothers and sisters. Now we are hated. It doesn’t feel good.
Reply
 
 
 kez says:

 February 12, 2015 at 1:14 pm
 
The only other religious sect that practices this extreme form of shunning are the Amish, and it’s well documented and recognised. People in general are so ignorant to how as to how insidious and nasty this cult is.
 The jehovahs witnesses are viewed as slightly nice but weird people who knock on your door trying to peddle magazines and religion. I could write a book on the nastiness and evil I’ve suffered at the hands of this so called religion. I’m not bitter I’ve moved on and built a happy and successful life for myself and my children. My so called mother has not seen her grandchildren since they were babies, my son is disabled and I could really do with some help and support.
 I have offered contact on numerous occasions where she does not have to interact with me in any shape or form.
 She is in her second marriage to an elder/delivery man and seems more eager to please him and her so called god. To call themselves christian is a complete joke my mum’s,running round pioneering trying to save the world while her disabled grandson has literally one person to look out for him. If you are thinking of joining the jehovahs witnesses and haven’t been born into it aka brainwashed seek counselling as it will fit a gap in your life or psyche that is missing.
Reply
 
 
 Grace says:

 February 12, 2015 at 1:55 pm
 
I feel so sad for your situation kez, I can only imagine how heartbreaking this is for you. I can tell that you aren’t feeling sorry for you but for your son & the lack of love that he deserves from his grandparents. He is just an innocent victim in this selfish cult.
The observation that I noticed all of the years I have been with witnesses is that anyone who was in the ‘too hard basket’ was just left to fend for themselves. The ones that did try to help those ones were left to do it on their own, hence burn out. I know from experience.
Reply
 
 
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← Disfellowshipped but NOT reported: UK pedophile subjected boys to “truly wicked” acts
Under Siege: Watchtower hit with fresh child abuse lawsuit →
 
“Shun your disfellowshipped loved ones!”: Shocking District Convention talk hits YouTube
avatar 
Posted on July 31, 2013
 
A 2013 District Convention talk ordering Witnesses to shun disfellowshipped relatives has been uploaded to YouTube

A talk by a Watchtower representative urging the shunning of relatives is sending shockwaves through the online JW community.
Recorded at one of the 2013 “God’s Word Is Truth” District Conventions in California, the speaker instructs Witnesses to shun family members, even children, as an act of loyalty.
In his Saturday-afternoon talk entitled “The Truth Brings ‘Not Peace, But a Sword’,” Wallkill Bethel representative Steven Bell laid the blame for the heartache of shunning squarely at the feet of those who are disfellowshipped.
“Resist self-blame,” Bell told an audience of thousands of Witnesses. “We may think that we’re at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Each person has to have a personal relationship with Jehovah. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped, it’s because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.”
Since being uploaded less than 24 hours ago, the video has already received thousands of views and has provoked an angry backlash on JW forums and Facebook groups – especially among those who are currently being shunned.


Video transcript available on this link.
Ironically, even though the above talk openly encourages divisions between families on religious grounds, the official handbill circulated by Jehovah’s Witnesses to promote the convention posed the following question on its front cover…


Bell’s talk, which was based on an outline provided for him by the Teaching Committee of the Governing Body, draws on Christ’s words in Matthew 10:34,35 to suggest that Witnesses should expect their beliefs to cause family divisions.
In using this scripture, the Governing Body are implying that all who are disfellowshipped from Jehovah’s Witnesses oppose God and Jesus and should therefore be shunned. Failure to shun family members who are former Witnesses is to be considered an act of disloyalty against God.
“What does Jehovah expect out of us, even if the situation is so painful that we have a family member who is disfellowshipped? What does he want?” asks Bell. “Loyalty, that’s what Jehovah wants. Jehovah knows that this is a difficult time in our life, but he wants loyalty.”
Loyalty to the Watch Tower Society is thus to be considered equal to loyalty to God.
Emotional blackmail admitted
Those who oppose Watchtower’s practice of shunning former members point to the fact that it essentially constitutes emotional blackmail. The purpose of disfellowshipping is, they say, not to restore the person’s relationship with God, but to blackmail the person into returning to the organization by holding his family hostage. Interestingly, this is precisely how disfellowshipping is presented in Bell’s talk.
Rather than being aimed at helping the individual, shunning holds a person’s family hostage until they comply with the Society’s wishes

“When someone is disfellowshipped,” explains Bell, “one of the reasons they want to come back into Jehovah’s organization is to associate with the brothers and sisters in the congregation and likely to associate with their family. So if we associate with them when they’re disfellowshipped, we could actually be taking away from them a motivating factor for wanting to be reinstated.”
Bell then attempts to drive his point home with a bizarre hypothetical scenario in which a disfellowshipped person is finally reinstated and promptly criticizes his family for not shunning him fully. Many have already commented on how unlikely this scenario would be.
“Just imagine now if we didn’t remain loyal and we talk to them [the disfellowshipped person] and associate with them,” suggests Bell. “Could you imagine the feeling we would have the night they were reinstated, and they walked up to us and said: ‘Why weren’t you loyal to Jehovah when I was disfellowshipped?’ That would cut us at our heart! But what joy you would have if they walked up and said, ‘Thank you for being loyal to Jehovah! Your example motivated me to return to serve Jehovah!’ Remember, in all cases, being loyal to Jehovah is the most important thing.”
Misrepresentation to the outside world
The recording of the shunning talk was just one of a series of audio files that were made available to JWsurvey.org. Interestingly, an announcement was read out at the start of the convention, which stated: “Any recordings of this program should be for your personal use or for the benefit of those unable to be present. Recordings should not be made available for general circulation, or distribution.”
Anyone who listens to the shunning talk will understand the Society’s concern in wanting to keep a lid on what instructions are given to Witnesses behind closed doors. Like many religious organizations, Watchtower is acutely image conscious, and wants to make sure it can control the facade it presents to the outside world – even if this involves using deception.
A 2011 clipping from the Independent

For example, in 2011 a journalist for the Independent quizzed Watchtower representative Rick Fenton on whether the Society ostracizes (or shuns) so-called apostates. Fenton replied by describing ostracization as a “personal matter for each individual to decide for himself.” Then, in early 2013, another Watchtower representative by the name of Vincent Toole described shunning as a “myth” when questioned by an Australian reporter. (click here for article)
Even the Society’s official website, JW.org, goes to considerable lengths to conceal the extent of its shunning practices. In its FAQ section under the question “Do You Shun Former Members of Your Religion?” an evasive answer is given that leaves the reader bewildered and none the wiser. The four-paragraph ‘answer’ can be summarized as follows:
◾Paragraph 1: talks about how inactive Witnesses are not shunned, even though the question specifically refers to “former members.”
◾Paragraph 2: ignores the fact that the question is about shunning entirely and discusses the judicial process, mentioning that not everyone who sins is disfellowshipped.
◾Paragraph 3: mentions that family heads are not subject to shunning – one of only two loopholes that is provided (the other being children that are too young to leave home).
◾Paragraph 4: sums up by explaining that disfellowshipped persons are invited to meetings, ignoring the fact that nobody will be allowed to speak to them, including their family members, which is shunning.
But the Society hasn’t just lied about its practice of shunning and shied away from discussing it on its official website. This new YouTube video highlights a quote from a 2009 Awake! magazine that lambasted other religions for causing family divisions, thus implying that those who choose to become Witnesses will never face this predicament.

“No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.” – g7/09 p.29
If only Watchtower could itself live up to the standards it expects from other faiths.
The backlash begins
Predictably, many current and former Witnesses who have seen the video have been saddened and outraged by it. Those who are themselves on the receiving end of shunning have especially expressed their dismay that this is the sort of propaganda their Witness family members are being pummelled with.
Of course, there is nothing unusual in the actual instructions conveyed in the talk. Those who are familiar with the Witness faith know about the extent to which shunning is enforced, and that it is principally intended as emotional blackmail. What makes the talk unusual is the manner in which the speaker brazenly and forcefully spells out that shunning is something Witnesses are compelled to do, even to children, in total contradiction of the image Watchtower seeks to portray to outsiders.
Now the talk is being circulated on YouTube, it is hoped that more non-JWs will be made aware of the enormous pressure Witnesses are under to inflict misery and heartache on their disfellowshipped loved ones – all in the name of “loyalty.”
It is also hoped that Steven Bell, who so passionately and enthusiastically defended the harmful policies of his Governing Body masters, does not rise any higher up the Watchtower leadership chain. If he were to ever become a Governing Body member himself, based on this talk, I shudder to think how further radicalized the organization might become in the future.
 


 
 
 
 
Further reading…
◾PDF transcript of Steven Bell’s talk: English | Portuguese
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
◾An Open Letter to Jehovah’s Witnesses, by Robert Crompton
◾Stephanie Hammond’s blog article “Shunning the Shunners”
◾Patheos.com article
Related videos…








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112 Responses to “Shun your disfellowshipped loved ones!”: Shocking District Convention talk hits YouTube

← Older Comments
 
 kez says:

 February 12, 2015 at 3:01 pm
 
Thank you for your kind words.I think I’m just feeing frustrated as my son’s behaviour has took a downturn recently and I feel like my mother should be helping but I realise that is just a fantasy. I don’t even associate myself as being an exjw my life has moved on and grown so much beyond that. Most of my friends don’t even know I was raised in it.
 It rears it’s ugly head at times though like when my dad got married I got seated next to my jdub brother and his wife (my dad’s not a Jovi) and they pretended that they were really friendly with me whilst keeping my three young nieces from talking to me it was like a sick game my dad’s family kept saying how great me and my brother were getting on ugh if only they knew.
 Noone understands unless they’ve been there.
 I’m completely emotionally detached from it all I think you have to be for your own sanity and take life on life’s terms., Initially it’s hard that your own flesh and blood would reject you and treat you badly but you have to realise that it’s not you its them.
 Make them have ownership of their feelings and flaws and don’t let them project them onto you they are the ones with the faulty thinking and behaviour. You can be and are an amazing person without approval from people who are brainwashed and mind disordered.
 Like I said you take life on,life’s terms and and make your own path.I saw the jws round my street the other day and I thanked god literally I’m away from that what a shitty weird life I’m the one who is lucky in a funny way.
Reply
 
 
 Clara says:

 April 15, 2015 at 5:32 pm
 
JESUS forgive Jehovah witnesses. They do not know what they are doing. Yes witnesses, scripture says that Jesus forgives sins. Thank you Jehovah for calling me out from among them, and not being like them, but being like You.
 Filled with love and forgiveness. I bind the demon over the watchtower society. Any human in gods image can see better than the sickness among jws. Please speak the truth, if you know truth.
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← Why class distinction among Jehovah’s Witnesses is alive and flourishing
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The Book Corner – Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
avatar 
Posted on July 2, 2015

The 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind Control includes extensive material on Jehovah's Witnesses
The 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind Control includes extensive material on Jehovah’s Witnesses

When renowned cult expert Steven Hassan first published his seminal work Combatting Cult Mind Control in 1988, the world was a very different place.
There was no internet, so mega-cults like Watchtower, Scientology and the Moonies had a free run at inflicting their undue influence on people, including my parents, virtually unchallenged. There was precious little recourse for mounting any meaningful like-for-like rebuttal to the torrents of damaging nonsense spewing forth from cult leaders like the Governing Body.
And when it came to seeking support in escaping purveyors of undue influence, where could one turn? Cult refugees were forced to muddle through the best they could in their efforts to debrief themselves following their ordeal. There were no forums, reddit pages or facebook groups to turn to for solidarity, a hearing ear, or advice on what to do. Despite the groundbreaking work of pioneers like Robert J. Lifton, mind control as a serious field of study was even more taboo and misunderstood than it is now – and that’s saying something!
Step forward Steve Hassan, who since first publishing Combatting has gone on to author several other valuable guides for assisting those under undue influence, and with multiple media appearances has developed a reputation as one of the world’s leading authorities on mind control.
I had the pleasure of meeting Steven at the undue influence workshop in London last August, on which occasion he and I sat down for a quick interview (below). I recall in subsequent conversations Steven mentioned he was trying to secure the rights to re-publish the 1988 edition of Combatting so that he could bring it up-to-date with a quarter of a century’s worth of developments in the cult field.


Of course, one of the most appealing features of the 1988 Combatting was that, while introducing the BITE model as a means of recognizing cult characteristics, it didn’t mention Jehovah’s Witnesses once. This meant that Combatting could not be prohibited as “apostate literature” by the Governing Body, thus allowing doubting Witnesses to read it without having to wrestle with crippling feelings of guilt.
But why the oversight? Because as a former Moonie, Hassan simply didn’t know enough about what Watchtower was doing to consider the organization a cult back then. It took conversations with the likes of Randall Watters, a legend in the Watchtower resistance movement, to convince him that Jehovah’s Witnesses are “one of the largest contemporary cults,” and that almost everything he wrote in Combatting regarding cultic influence could be applied to Watchtower’s methods.
Steven Hassan credits Randall Watters with helping him understand Watchtower's cult-like attributes
Steven Hassan credits Randall Watters with helping him understand Watchtower’s cult-like attributes

A 25th Anniversary re-release of Combating (now minus one of the “t’s”) was the perfect opportunity for Steven to redress the balance and drag Jehovah’s Witnesses under the umbrella of organizations whose toxic influence must be urgently remedied.
Ex-Witnesses (and those seeking to be ex-Witnesses) will find chapters such as chapter 4 (“Understanding Mind Control”) and chapter 22 (“Strategies for Recovery”) very helpful. The latter includes a section titled “Floating: Dealing With The Cult Identity After Leaving,” which offers strategies for coping with the inner torment experienced by many cult victims long after they have left.
Those who are trying to help a friend or relative who has been enticed into joining the Witnesses will find chapter 8 (“Curing the Mind Control Virus”) helpful, as it walks the reader through the basic techniques involved in staging interventions for loved ones. And trust me as someone who has tried and failed with an intervention on his own indoctrinated father – though there is never a magic bullet solution when it comes to waking up family members it is all too easy to get it wrong!
Combating also features two “survivor stories” from ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses on pages 173 and 175. One is that of Lee Marsh, president of AAWA, who suffered abuse as both a child and a wife during her traumatic Watchtower experience. The other story is my own – a brief run-through of my journey out of Jehovah’s Witnesses at the expense of normal relationships with my father and sister, who now shun me for taking a stand against the organization. (This is a story that I will be detailing in my forthcoming book, which I hope will be published next year.)
I am grateful to Steven for including both these experiences. By highlighting the specific ways in which Watchtower is ruining lives, we can hopefully inoculate others, including escapees from other cults, against ever getting entangled in the organization’s corrosive web of influence.
Steven reserves some of the most scathing material about Jehovah’s Witnesses for the closing pages of his book, where he mentions the deadly prohibitions on blood transfusions and calls for Watchtower’s tax exempt status to be revoked.

“Any country that grants tax-exempt status to organizations that abuse children, not just physically, but mentally, emotionally or spiritually, should be held responsible for that abuse. Tax-exempt organizations like Jehovah’s Witnesses, that have had policies in place for decades that systematically protect pedophiles from criminal prosecution, and which disfellowship victims and their families for speaking out, should lose their exemption. The leadership should be prosecuted for conspiracy to cover up illegal activities.”
I fully endorse those sentiments, and I am grateful to Steven for adding his voice to the growing calls for greater scrutiny of cults, particularly as regards tax exemption. After all, it is bad enough that governments are doing nothing to make life difficult for cults without them effectively giving them a leg up by subsidizing their income.
More than anything, I am thankful that Steven and others in the ex-cult movement are doing such wonderful work in raising public consciousness surrounding undue influence, and advising those who suffer from it.
The 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind Control shines a bright light on the murky world of cults, and the strategies they use so successfully in controlling people’s lives. If you are struggling from the effects of cultic manipulation, or want to help a loved one escape its grasp, you will find this book a wonderful resource.
 
new-cedars-signature3
 
 
 
 
 
 
To order your copy of the 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind Control, click here.
To listen to a recent podcast interview with Steven Hassan regarding his new book, click here.


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62 Responses to The Book Corner – Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan

 Richard E. Kelly says:

 July 2, 2015 at 8:45 am
 
An excellent review of Steven’s book, Lloyd. A must-read for all ex-JWs. And I am looking forward to reading your book, another staple I am sure, for those books that will help to make the world aware of Watchtower abuses and its shameless use of undue influence on its members.
Reply
 
 
 Mama Joy says:

 July 2, 2015 at 9:01 am
 
You should lose your tax exempt status when you act more like a hate group than a religion.
Reply
 
 
 ScotWm says:

 July 2, 2015 at 9:02 am
 
The Watchtower mind control program consists of illogical, rambling nonsense spewed out by the “faithful and discreet slave”, now claimed to be the Governing Body. The irrational demands of the Governing Body become painfully obvious when the facts are known:
“Since Jehovah God and Jesus Christ completely trust the faithful and discreet slave, should we not do the same?” Watchtower 2009 Feb 15 p.27
“We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval.” Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.24 Simplified English Edition
Once properly programed, brainwashed witnesses will truly believe the Governing Body’s lies and then attempt to lure others into the Watchtower cult.
Reply
 
 Stephane Laliberte says:

 July 2, 2015 at 5:18 pm
 
Those quotes are gold!
Reply
 
 ScotWm says:

 July 4, 2015 at 12:23 am
 
RE: “Those quotes are gold!”
I agree. Those are a couple of real winners. And here’s another good one:
“The Bible calls the era that began in 1914 “the last days.” ” (WT Study Edition 08/15/2015, p. 24, #1)
As you might have guessed, there is no scripture that can be used to back up this statement.
Reply
 
 Wendy says:

 July 5, 2015 at 7:33 pm
 
Right ScotWm, there is no scripture that exists to back up this belief. I have spent much time going through the gyrations of how JWs get to this date, and the algebraic equation isn’t satisfied by their explanation. Basically, it’s 1260 = X + (y)X + 1/2X to arrive at that date, and unless you know the value of Y, you can not know the value of X, which they use to define as a “time.” So the whole hypothesis of all their dates fall flat without an explanation of how they arrive at 1914. Would love a rebuttal in case my math is incorrect.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Searcher says:

 July 2, 2015 at 10:05 am
 
Thanks Lloyd for the review and info on the latest edition of “Combating Cult Mind Control”. I read the first edition, recognizing so many similarities to Hassan’s BITE model to the WTBTS. Funny how any JW elder will swear (figuratively, of course) up and down that the Watchtower is not a cult. I’m glad that Hassan has directly referenced the Watchtower in the book as a destructive cult.
I also look forward to your new book. Keep up the good work you are doing. You are helping so many people out of the horrible control of the WTBTS.
Reply
 
 
 Mike Dennis says:

 July 2, 2015 at 10:54 am
 
Thank you Lloyd for all your good work and help to all of us who were part of this cult in the past. We all have a book in us and I hope yours helped you personally in dealing with your losses. I also have lost all my family because I refuse to accept ” the slave “. It’s so heart breaking to lose all you once held dear. I just ordered the new book from Mr. Hassan. Thank you again.
Reply
 
 
 JJ says:

 July 2, 2015 at 11:07 am
 
I’m going to say that leaving a cult is very hard. It might even be worth staying in, or leaving someone in.
 My life has become a mess since I’ve left the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Not because I started drinking or taking drugs but from the loss of friends, my wife leaving me, my in laws turning against me and trying to take my family away. I know that all of this just proves how evil and wrong the cult is but to try and fight all of these people on your own is absolutely exhausting and depressing.
 Then there was the ‘awakening’ to the fact that the Paradise isn’t coming and that we are all going to die. That was very hard to deal with.
 Finally, growing up in the cult doesn’t provide you with the emotional background or experience to deal with the real world on different terms.
 I know that this would sound silly to someone who has never been in a cult but these are very real problems for me. (I’m hoping to save my marriage and my family but my wife’s dream is shattered or having a ‘spiritual’ man as her head)
 Of course I think the governments should tax all religions, investigate and charge cults that do damaging things and educate people to stay away from these groups. But it might just be better off to leave some people right where they are. Be there to support them when they do come out but don’t actively try and pull people out if they’ve been raised and have an extended family in there. As wrong as it all is, there is too much to lose for most people.
 I know the cults are insidious this way but people’s lives and happiness are involved. It would be much like us going to a primitive tribe somewhere and trying to force these people into the 21st Century.
Reply
 
 5 years out says:

 July 2, 2015 at 12:19 pm
 
From one ex-jw to another, am sending you lots of big hugs. It isn’t easy leaving and having everything around you taken away or people attempting to take them away.
 There are a few facebook groups of people who have left which (if you haven’t already joined) might help to talk about things and to come to terms with the changing situation eg:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/695974930436633/?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Excult/?fref=ts
It’s going to be tough but you can get through it :) Find people who like you for who you are not just for what you do or don’t believe
Stay strong, you can do it :)
Reply
 
 
 Mike Dennis says:

 July 2, 2015 at 12:34 pm
 
JJ, I understand your dilemmas. When I was DF, I told my wife to just come with me for one year, to travel and heal and rebuild our relationship. The only non negotiable stipulation was that no WT for that year. She could pray. Read the Bible. No WT influence. She refused, saying she was ” completely loyal to Jehovah “. As much as I tried to explain to her that the Org is not the same as Jehovah, she refused to consider it. As a consequence, I have no contact with my sons, except for business. My mother refuses to even open my letters. I was a born in. I served as an elder for many years. I saw too much that was wrong while serving. I was willing to forgive and overlook stuff because that’s our nature. ” it’s just imperfect men “. That was used too much. In combination with…” Obey those taking the lead ” it became ridiculous to try and excuse the org anymore. Even while in I tried to keep my sons and wife open minded and encouraged them to question things. Now, I see that something very bad must happen to most folks before they wake up. We cannot wake our family up if they prefer to blindly believe. As for myself, I have chosen to be true to my conscience. I cannot support the org. I believe it is stubborn, wrong on lots of levels. Just the fact that it breaks up families is reason enough to dismiss this cult. Ex JWs understand each other mostly. Find someone to talk to in your circumstance. Do not despair and return to this cult and support it to regain your families love. What a terrible way to live. I know now that if I went back to my wife, who I love still, my life and hers would be miserable. I’m an outcast now, a low life form who disrespects the ” slave. ” I have lost all I knew because of making a mistake many years ago. My wife had forgiven me, but the org didn’t. I wasn’t ” sincere enough ” in my repentance for a single act committed several years prior. If you want to get well after a life of indoctrination, you will have to work at it. Friends won’t come instantly as when you’re ” in “. You will have to take time and effort to learn patience and real love. Not love based on common beliefs. Loving your family and missing them is what makes us good humans. If the org would let folks decide for themselves who to shun or not, life would make more sense to JWs. As it is, their thinking is done for them. I am of the opinion that you cannot drag loved ones from this cult. They will leave or wKe up when they get that epiphany and realize that there are holes in the fabric of this society. In any case, good luck. We all make our own journey. Freedom to think is priceless. Aloha
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 2, 2015 at 3:49 pm
 
Sounds like she forgave infidelity but can’t cope with rivalry against WT. Tragic. Sorry for your loss.
But you’re right about the org. I hope you stay strong and find peace of mind, with or without your wife.
In my view, a man does what a man has to do, with or without the support of loved ones. Not saying it’s time for you to move on, only you can know that. But given enough time, we all do.
Reply
 
 
 
 Finn Sawyer says:

 July 2, 2015 at 6:14 pm
 
JJ,
I sympathize with your statement. Know that others are going through the same as you. I wish I could tell you the story will end OK, but that may not be the case. Hang in there.
Reply
 
 
 ScotWm says:

 July 2, 2015 at 6:50 pm
 
RE: “I’m going to say that leaving a cult is very hard. It might even be worth staying in, or leaving someone in.”
You raise a valid point. I know that there are many who remain in the JW organization to avoid the very problems that you have outlined. These floaters are easy to spot because they have only moderate knowledge of the most basic Watchtower history and doctrines. They are dragged along by faithful family members and they offer absolutely no resistance to even the most asinine pronouncements of the Governing Body. They parrot back the information presented in study articles and offer no original thoughts on the material being considered.
Exposing false Watchtower doctrine to these people is only a partial solution toward helping them break free. If we can’t offer a viable alternative to Watchtower association and beliefs, a person may feel that remaining in good standing with the Watchtower organization is the better choice. Choosing to remain in a secure environment triumphs over being cast out, all alone, to face the unknown.
Reply
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 July 3, 2015 at 9:01 pm
 
So sorry to hear how the Witnesses messed up your life. I was lured into the organisation along with my hubby and kids we brought up in it. One is still in it with his family and thoroughly brainwashed. I was shattered for quite sometime not feeling right about everything. My husband felt like he had been conned for the 17 years of our lives we were in it after we made the move. We had lost so much in material wealth, it was all catch up for us. It wasn’t easy, but somehow we made a life for ourselves. You can do it and come out sane on the other side. This time you have the freedom to think for yourself for once. I know it’s not easy but it feels like you have got out of gaol. Certainly that is a real blessing. Sure we all go a bit crazy and over the top for a while. It’s like we are finding a balance which we eventually find. Hang in there brother.
Reply
 
 
 Cr0okedfinger says:

 July 4, 2015 at 12:14 am
 
Actually you’re right on JJ. As an ex-christian, I feel the same way towards my very religious family. If you’re happy as a Christian, enjoy it. Because really it’s all the same in the end. Only those who are unhappy and are seeking answers outside their religion or sect and have open minds should be given the truth, because it’ll be wasted on those not willing to listen.
The sad reality that there is no soul, and no afterlife, means that when we die, we simply cease to exist, same as all other animals. So believing in an afterlife or not is all the same in the end. All men die and we all come to nothing. Enjoy your life in the meantime, it’s the only one you’ll ever have.
PS: for several years after leaving Christianity I often felt that I was happier when I was a believer. But eventually that passed and I’m much happier and content with life now. There’s no going back for me. I could no more go back to believing in false religions than I could regain belief in Santa Claus.
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 ScotWm says:

 July 4, 2015 at 10:38 am
 
[Evangelical comment removed – please refer to posting guidelines before commenting again.]
Reply
 
 ScotWm says:

 July 4, 2015 at 3:14 pm
 
I have re-read all of your comment posting guidelines. I also went back and re-read your article posted on April 11, 2015:
“My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)”
Please accept my apology for posting a personal belief that I can’t prove.
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 John Baptist says:

 July 2, 2015 at 12:56 pm
 
test
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 John Baptist says:

 July 2, 2015 at 12:59 pm
 
I wrote a reply and puff gone. lol I just got the book on Kindle last week. Cant wait to be done with it. Much needed!! Thank You
Reply
 
 
 JJ says:

 July 2, 2015 at 4:36 pm
 
I was, unfortunately, under the illusion that when I learned the truth about “The Truth” my wife and my Inlaws would be likewise happy and excited. I was shocked to find that Jehovah’s Witnesses DO NOT want to know anything other than what comes from their governing body. It doesn’t matter what you can prove or what makes sense, they wish to believe as they see fit and they want to know that you do too.
 That knowledge is important so that you don’t make any enemies or even have cult members become suspicious of you.
 Of course if you wish to leave then that’s your business and right to do so, just these ‘apostates’ or drifters should be aware of how most cult members will treat them.
 Also, there is a process that happens when you realize there isn’t (or might not be) a god, an afterlife or any hope at all. When someone’s belief structure gets torn away it can be quite traumatic.
 In short, you can make someone’s life better by getting them out of a cult but it can be much worse too. There are many happy Jehovah’s Witnesses who were born, raised and died in that organization. If their whole, extended family, friendships and employment were inside of the Jehovah’s Witnesses then what are you offering by getting them out?
 I don’t like the JW religion but there could be worse ways to live. Ignorance is bliss.
 I kind of feel like that one guy in The Matrix who was angry that he was ever taken out. I thought that I would bring my whole family happiness but I’ve only brought them misery and sadness, so far. I think that I’m right but it doesn’t matter. All of my predictions have come true (about owning a home, having a pension, making investments) but it doesn’t matter if they can’t be happy with me.
 I’ll never go back in but I may have to fake it. I’ll hate it but I’ll enjoy what I can and I won’t try to take anyone else out.
 My wife always asks what else I can offer her/them?!? Some people will never be ready to stare into the void.
 In fact, I feel that if there are enough people like me on the inside it would weaken the organization more than all of the websites and books ever could. We could water down all of the doctrines, temper all of the discipline, break all of the cliques and simply take seats without ever contributing one penny. Really that is every cults worse nightmare; to have unbelievers present. They would form their witch hunts but they would have to be run continuously.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 2, 2015 at 5:11 pm
 
That’s deep, like The Matrix. But I could never do it, no peace of mind. The simple truth works best for me. I’d rather be Tom Hanks stranded on that island alone, than living a lie among “friends.”
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 July 2, 2015 at 5:57 pm
 
Simon, that is how I feel also. I can’t live a lie to keep friends that aren’t even friends. They are only friends as long as you agree with the lie of the Watchtower religion.
I can’t go in service to promote a lie and I can’t go to meetings and give anybody the impression that I agree with lies. I’d rather be on that island alone with my volley ball than live like that. Tom got to love that Volley ball. That volley ball would be a better friend that any of the fake friends at the hall.
If anybody at the hall cares to know why you don’t go to meetings anymore and they ask you and they listen to you and understand what you are saying and won’t turn you in as an apostate, then you have a friend.
Who knows what they will do unless when somebody asks you why you left you try and tell them, if they turn out to be a real friend or not? You won’t know unless you talk to them. That will be the real test if they are a real friend or not.
I know one thing. When I was still “in” and one of my “friends” at the hall told me about the Society belonging to the United Nations like what I first found out about last year, I would have wanted to prove them wrong. I wouldn’t have closed my ears to it and told them that I didn’t want to hear it. That is the kind of person I am and who knows? A person might have some of those kinds of friends if they try and talk to them. As for me, if those people don’t care enough about why I am not going to the meetings to ask me directly why I am not going to the meetings anymore, then I know they don’t care about me and I won’t press the issue with them. It’s painful to find out that you don’t have any friends anymore in the “truth” but I’d rather know than not know.
There is a “sister” in my old congregation who gushes about all the “friends” in our Kingdom Hall but behind her back, they talk about her all the time because she’s got such a mean and arrogant mouth. What she doesn’t know is that when people are “forced” to be nice to you, that doesn’t make them your friend.
How many of the people at the Kingdom Hall are “forced” to be nice to us? We will never know unless we drop out and they miss us so much and ask us why we left and they listen to us and give us an ear and don’t turn us in as an apostate. That is when we find out if any of those people are really our friend. A real friend will try and free their friends from the prison of the Watchtower.
I know when I left, it was difficult realizing that I was going to die and probably not see my mother and father in the resurrection but it also freed me from the thought that I was serving an insatiable organization that only wanted more and more of my time and money and I didn’t have to force myself to sit though all those boring meetings and go in service and assemblies which I hated every minute of.
I am no longer feeling the depression of feeling like I was never good enough unless I was a regular pioneer, which I couldn’t afford to do and didn’t want to do.
In a way, I am glad to find out the Watchtower was all lies because now I am free of all the guilt and fear they put on me all those years.
I have no respect for the Governing Body but I have respect for myself, which I didn’t have all those years because of what that religion did to me.
Reply
 
 Brent says:

 July 3, 2015 at 12:01 am
 
The truth about the Truth is that you never had real friends in the truth. A friend will stand with you through the tough times. For that matter as a witness you don’t truly have a belief system of your own because when ever the GB changes a doctrine you must go alone with it or lose your family and your so called friends. In the end it is better to know the truth about JW friends. It is helpful to go back to the people you rejected as a Witness and ask for forgiveness for being a real turd when they needed your help. It is a very positive thing to do for them and yourself.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Finn Sawyer says:

 July 2, 2015 at 6:24 pm
 
JJ,
I thought about faking it for a while too. But, ultimately, I couldn’t do it. I realized it just wasn’t about me, the clincher was my kids. I couldn’t do it to my kids. They were still young enough to save. I couldn’t indoctrinate them with something I hated. That being said, it’s all uncharted territory for me now. I have a huge void where once was a pre-determined path for child-rearing. Now I have to make it up as I go along. I feel like my kids are at a disadvantage, but no more so than had I made them drink the kool-aid. At least there’s hope.
Reply
 
 Mike Dennis says:

 July 2, 2015 at 8:26 pm
 
The idea of faking it makes my stomach turn. Being true to yourself beats living a lie in any universe. To each his own. To support this destructive cult is unconscionable to me. Everyone is different. One life is what we get. Spend it on the WT…your call. I wish you well JJ. Aloha
Reply
 
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 July 3, 2015 at 9:15 pm
 
I’m not you JJ. We all have different circumstances, but I am not sure I would have plucked up the courage to leave if my husband had not said he wasn’t going to the meetings anymore. You see I was one of those sisters who never missed a meeting, not a week in field service or getting my pre-study (brainwashing) done. I realised after awhile he was right and so I stopped going too and did some research on the internet myself and was convinced I did the right thing after a fortnight of battling a damaged conscience. Anyway, that was my experience. I know there would be no guarantee that this would be yours.
Reply
 
 
 tim3l0rd says:

 July 8, 2015 at 2:18 pm
 
I’m dealing with some of this too. Thankfully there are plenty of websites like this one and groups like exjw over on reddit that helped me to realize that I need to slow down and take it slowly with my wife and family.
It pains me to think that I might not be able to wake them up and that I might have to walk away from all of them. I sometimes too have thought about what would have happened had I decided to not prove the truth to myself. I honestly doubted many things for a long time and kept taking the blue pill any time a doubt would surface. I finally took the red pill as I couldn’t help someone else come into this org if I myself had any doubts. The rest was history.
Now that I’m faced with the questions and uncertainty of the future, I sometimes long for the certainty I held before waking up. However, I’m also glad for the freedom of choice that I now have.
Know that you have a “great crowd of ex-witnesses” that have been through and are going through much the same as you. I hope that eventually your family, especially your children, come around.
Reply
 
 
 
 Vivian says:

 July 2, 2015 at 9:26 pm
 
I think getting a jw to read literature on cults is one of the better ways in. Even if you have never been in one I think its interesting and useful to know how the human brain can be handled and manipulated. Even a strong good mind can be controlled and directed towards unhealthy illogical lines of reasoning IF its an unassuming one. And of course that’s all children!
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 Cecil B. Demented says:

 July 3, 2015 at 12:57 am
 
As always a great read. Have to point out that at the time of reading (0855 UK time) the AAWA link isn’t working.
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 Cedars says:

 July 3, 2015 at 1:08 am
 
Thanks, fixed! :)
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 David says:

 July 3, 2015 at 4:56 am
 
Leaving the jw.org corporation is a real trauma. I cannot understand how people that study the Bible and learn Jesus teachings can be so cruel and selfish.
But the important thing is that you cannot ruin your life and the relationship with your loved ones for this heartless cult.
Unfortunatelly lots of experiences show that the organization is like a giant machine that it is prepared to destroy family relations and innocent people lives for its expansion aims.
It practices a form of inquisition and loyalty to seven men is more important of loyalty to God, If you do not agree with them you must be avoided by family members. Crazy but true.
I suggest that if you start waking up do not tell anyone. It does not matter how logic or true your points are. They will never agree. They can’t agree. The group mentality wins.
Instead try buiding relationships with people outside or no jw people and clear your mind of the cult mentality. It takes years to erase the cult mentality where even the most innocent thing is seen as gross sin (birthdays, smurfs, etc).
You could also post to blogs or write to authorities to fight for your religious freedom.
We should not loose our vantage point for this stupid organisation but instead play smart.
Remember you can excuse your inactivity by saying that you cannot teach to other non sense teachings like the overlapping generation, child baptsim or that you do not agree with their real estate materialistic attitude.
Like this you can keep contact with your jw friends, make new “worldly” friends and fight from feedom from the inside. You’ll win, they’ll loose.
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 JJ says:

 July 3, 2015 at 8:03 am
 
Thank you for all the kind words of support! I can see that many of your experiences are similar to mine.
 Yesterday was a particularly hard day as I have been reported on at work. Guess by who? Yes, a good Jehovah’s Witness! (He wants to have me moved so that he could take my spot). He’s been reporting secretly on me to our superiors that even innocent and friendly things are making him feel “uncomfortable”. JW’s just don’t seem to make good friends for oneself.
 The JW’s do seem to be pre-programed to drop you and to ostricize you like in some Orwellian novel.
 I’m lucky that my parents aren’t like that at all but I really need to pull my family back together. How is life worth living without the people you love? Like your wife and children?
 I could never go like I used to but if I have to sit through an occasional boring meeting or spend a day at an assembly or memorial then I could do that. I could do a family study using the time to get closer to my children. (Maybe not using the literature as much as hearing about their experiences and letting them talk)
 Interestingly enough, my best friends are still JW’s. They are good people, the religion aside. I don’t know what would happen to them if this cult came crashing down? I mean, they’d be ok but would they go and find something else???
 Again, thank you for the kind words and I really enjoy everyone’s experiences and comments. I’m glad that you all can sympathize with my plight and understand my thoughts on how hard it will be to leave a controlling cult like the JW’s.
Reply
 
 David says:

 July 3, 2015 at 8:45 am
 
The rank & file are good people but the GB builds a distorted mentality. At the same time I believe the normal JW should be able to understand when something does not make sense. But they are trained to swallow all. Ideally you wish to have honesty, integrity without loosing loved ones. But is not possible at the moment. If you start having doubts keep them for yourself. Loosing loved ones is devastating, also you have developed a cult mentality and you’ll find it difficult to get used to normal people.
 So better to stay in but fight for changes within the organization.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 July 3, 2015 at 9:09 am
 
JJ, it was the hardest decision I ever made but I couldn’t support lies once I knew about all the lies in the Watchtower organization. Those people aren’t real friends. They may seem like it but a real friend will listen to you and let you talk if you disagree with them or the teachings and they will give you a listening ear and not reprove you for it. If you try and talk to them and they turn a deaf ear to you, you will know who is your real friend. We don’t need “friends” like that.
If you need moral support, read some books like Gentile Times Reconsidered or Crisis of Conscience. Watch videos over and over again. Lloyd’s are wonderful. If you watch them over and over again, it gives you strength to stand up for the real truth but you need to keep watching them over and over again to keep you strong.
It takes a long time to get to the point that just stepping foot in the Kingdom Hall seems like stepping into cow sh**t and you have nothing but pity for all those still stuck in the tower.
Believe me, there are people at that Kingdom Hall that you go to, that go because their arms are being twisted. Just look at the faces of the people in the audience in the jwbroadcasting video about Mosambique. Does even one of those people look happy to be there???
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 David says:

 July 3, 2015 at 9:19 am
 
The problem is brainwashing. The leaders use big words to convince the people. Everybody wants a better world, life after death. The outer appearance of the leaders is trustable and therefore ignorant and gullable people become victims. It is like the people who sell cancer cures. You want to live and may become victim of this charlatans. The rank & file have a some responsibility because you cannot be completely stupid. But I don’t think the normal JW are not friends, they think they doing God will, but in reality they are followers of men.
Reply
 
 Wendy says:

 July 5, 2015 at 8:09 pm
 
David, I never thought of it like that before but you are right, the way the JWs entice you to commit to them is by promising you a cure for death, just like a quack will offer magnetic bracelets or coffee enemas as a cure for cancer. It’s a pull on everyone’s desire to live forever and when people are desperate they will try anything. This is not to say that I don’t believe in anything else after our life on earth is through, only that I can see how manipulative the WT is by directing their initial conversations towards everyone’s basic fears. Snake Oil 101.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Ted says:

 July 3, 2015 at 10:13 am
 
Facing up to oblivion, after becoming wise to the cult con
Just contemplating eternity makes my head spin.
 Of course it would be difficult to choose a cut off point
 for myself. But endless life on that scale, scares the hell
 outta me! Oblivion’s not so bad anyway, we’ve all been
 there before, and I don’t recall any anguish, or trauma, or
“Anything at all”.
The chances of anyone of us being here are truly astronomical.
 All our ancestors had to stay alive till they were old enough to
 procreate. Thousands of chance meetings had to happen.
 Just one variation, and we wouldn’t be here. So I’m just
 grateful for this shot. no one owes me anything else.
The “Lure” offered by our favourite cult. — Everlasting life on
 Earth, is obliterated by scientific evidence. In the cosmos out
 there, stars like our Sun are exploding every second. Anyone
 who thinks we’re gonna get away with it, is living in the stone
 age. It will be hell down here then, not paradise!
Before that though, Gravity is forcing our galaxy on a collision
 course with the Andromeda Galaxy. eta, 2.6 bill, years.,
 ( there seems to be a flaw in the design somewhere! )
 I’m sighing with relief, that I won’t be around to witness any of
 those events.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 3, 2015 at 10:32 am
 
Not all science is good science. They now say there may not be as many galaxies as once thought. An apparent “flaw in the design” may later be exposed as bad science.
Reply
 
 
 
 tiger123 says:

 July 3, 2015 at 12:36 pm
 
JJ
I, like so many sympathize with your loss of family and friends.
The fact that so many do not want to know that they are going to die only hastens death. Consider this, if you were on a train track and a train was coming would you want to know, or ignore that fact. Knowing certainly would be an advantage, because by knowing you would have a chance to get off of the tracks.
Consider the facts, at the turn of the 20th century the life expectancy around the world was less than 40 years. Jehovah’s Witnesses have contributed 0 years to anyones life expectancy. They have given nothing to cancer treatment, Sciences of the heart, lungs, kidneys, or the cure to any disease or illness. Look at those who openly acknowledge they are in the path of the train (atheist and agnostic) Collectively they have cured many cancers. My mother is living proof of this. She had a cancer that would have killed her decades ago and she is able to take a simple medication monthly and leads a normal life. Leukemia, once considered the most tragic diagnosis, today we have a cure for several types of the disease and are working hard to end aml. Look at Ebola, in the developed scientific world we do not even have to worry. In the superstitious underdeveloped world, death spreads unchecked. Today, smallpox (which took between 300million-500million lives in the 20th century) cured. Polio, tetanus, rabies, whooping cough, rinderpest, yellow fever, rabies are things we do not even think about, but only 100 years ago they plagued and killed 100s of millions.
By our facing our own mortality we have waged a war against death leading us to better health and a much longer life expectancy. Today modern technology moves forward with limitless possibilities. We change things at a molecular level. Computer chips, literally are altered at the smallest level. Stem cell research continues to provide solutions that were science fiction only a few decades ago. We grow fruits and plants in the desert using hydroponics, once considered impossible. Our opportunities are boundless.
Not only is life longer, today, we no longer demonize the mentally ill. Today we have so many ways to help those who struggle with mental illness and in more and more cases effective cures and aids enabling people to lead happier lives. Again JWs contributed nothing, they even demonized the mental health field for a long time.
Reply
 
 
 tiger123 says:

 July 3, 2015 at 12:40 pm
 
The real question is this, if you know the train is coming, do you focus on the train and impending death or a way to get off the tracks. JWs have trained you to focus on the train and feel sorry for yourself. By doing this you will ignore your own talents and ability to lead a full happy life.
You my friend have opportunities that are limitless, take your eyes off the train and don’t feel sorry for yourself. You have abilities that you are yet to discover, those abilities will outshine Watchtowers glib world. Take the time you would to go to a meeting and volunteer at a hospital, a park, or a fundraiser. Then and only then can you contribute to all of humanity including your family and lead a life of purpose. Nothing attracts people to you more than a life of purpose. Your case will be so much more valid when you decide to begin that journey. Don’t give in, you have so much more to offer them than giving in. Find your talent and help us all live longer and better lives.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 July 3, 2015 at 1:09 pm
 
JJ, I’d like to add to some of the comments to you too and I also feel for you. We were all at where you are at. If you listen to Lloyd’s videos, it took him about 10 years to break completely once he started doubting and I think for me it was probably 10 years too.
What the Watchtower does to us that learn what the real truth is, is devastating in so many ways. In a way, to live in the bubble works for a lot of people. They like being in the “truth” and it works for them. They will continue to think that they are saving the world through the Watchtower and it gives them real purpose in life and it will until they get old and die, still waiting for the “real” life and right up until they day they die, they have the hope that Armageddon is going to come in their lifetime and they won’t have to die.
The problem is that we do only get one life (if the Watchtower is wrong). If they are wrong, then we don’t get a second chance. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard comments like “I wished I could learn to play an instrument but there isn’t enough time but in the new world”…..It’s always in the new world is when they will do something that they really want to do but because of being a Witness, there isn’t enough time.
Before they know it, they are old and it’s too late to have accomplished something in their very brief life, waiting for the “real” world.
It takes about 10,000 hours to learn to be really good at something. If you took those 10,000 hours to be really accomplished at something, the people in the Watchtower would think you were a terrible person for not taking those 10,000 hours and spending it in the door to door work saving lives. You are not allowed to be good at anything or you will be viewed as “materialistic” or something bad. You have to give up your life, waiting for something that may never come. Millions of people have given up their one and only life and are now dead and went to the grave thinking that they will wake up in the “new world” perfect. That is when they think they will finally have a life but the precious life that they were blessed with right now is being pissed away on a fantasy.
It is the Watchtower Society that has put us in that terrible position of staying in to keep our friends and family or leave and be all alone in life. My hope is that soon the Society will be exposed for the dangerous cult that is really is and it will come crashing down and all of us and you will be set free from it’s prison.
A lot of people say that you should build up friends now and then fade slowly. My way of doing it may not have brought anybody out (except my youngest daughter) but I am not ashamed of telling them straight out that the Governing Body are a bunch of idiots who don’t deserve even one ounce of respect from me. I won’t even pretend to anybody that I don’t hate each and every one of them and consider them all to be blood guilty for thousands upon thousands of lives lost due to their man made policy about blood transfusions. I don’t even care whether or not my family and former friends think. I know that what I am saying is the 100% truth and that is good enough for me. I can’t pretend and I can’t cover up for those men. They are all scam artists and I am not afraid to tell anybody and everybody including the elders and have but it takes time to get to that point.
What I rely on when or if I get a chance to tell anybody is how the Society disfellowshipped Carl Olof Jonsson because he proved the Society wrong about 607 B.C.E. I can’t forgive them for doing that to him and I am not afraid to voice my thoughts about it and I will tell anybody that they should be ashamed to be supporting an organization that would do that to their brother.
It took me a long time for my hate to get to that point. At first I wanted to give the Governing Body the benefit of a doubt but no more. There is no way that they don’t know what they are doing. Nobody can be that stupid.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 3, 2015 at 2:40 pm
 
Don’t underestimate the power of stupidity. Hitler thought he was an agent of God!
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord” (Mein Kampf)
These people deceive themselves. Who knows why, but they do.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 July 3, 2015 at 5:27 pm
 
Simon, touche’. You are so right.
Reply
 
 
 
 applause says:

 July 3, 2015 at 2:46 pm
 
Anonymous, I just wanted to tell you that I was very touched by your very articulate comment explaining what a waste of a life it is to cling to this cult. Kudos to every single person out there who is working to expose this cult and stop people from wasting the one chance at life that we know we have on delusional hopes and fantasies.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 July 3, 2015 at 5:28 pm
 
applause, thank you for saying that.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Ted says:

 July 3, 2015 at 4:11 pm
 
Hi Simon I can’t argue against your point that there is bad
 science. But I don’t think there’s a lot of it about.
Scientists debating, disputing, testing out the various ideas
 is the way that knowledge is refined. That surely cannot be
 classed as bad.
My comment was not about the varying opinions of the number
 of galaxies in the universe. But just the future of 2 galaxies
 that are thought to be on a collision course. Thereby ruling out
 eternal life. On Earth. As well as casting doubt on the efficacy
 of a system that’s heading for destruction.
If you have any evidence, or even reasonable suggestions that
 that the galaxies will win out against the force of gravity, or
 that the earth will abide forever, I would welcome it , as I’m
 sure the scientific community would also.
best wishes.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 3, 2015 at 5:37 pm
 
“Thought to be” is not hard evidence, the essence of good science. Your assertion about eternal life is more about faith, or lack thereof, than science. And the article is about cults, not science vs. eternal life.
We could debate whether science worship is a virtual cult. But that may annoy the moderators.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 July 3, 2015 at 11:59 pm
 
“We could debate whether science worship is a virtual cult. But that may annoy the moderators.”
You could debate it by yourself if you like, but I doubt anyone but other religious fundamentalists would be interested in debating a motion based on a false premise, i.e. that accepting science is a form of “worship,” or that evidence-based theories about our universe are akin to religious dogma.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 4, 2015 at 1:06 am
 
Science provable by experimentation is good science. I didn’t say that was worship.
A theory is just an idea until proven by experimentation. Unproven theories are sometimes exaggerated with speculation. Accepting unsupported speculation in the guise of science can amount to worship.
Why you class me with “religious fundamentalists” is puzzling. Is any praise of God or the Bible offensive to you?
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 July 4, 2015 at 1:15 am
 
I didn’t call you a religious fundamentalist. I suggested your motion was one that only religious fundamentalists would be interested in “debating.”
“A theory is just an idea until proven by experimentation. Unproven theories are sometimes exaggerated with speculation. Accepting unsupported speculation in the guise of science can amount to worship.”
You don’t know what “theory” means in a scientific context. I suggest you look it up to avoid any further embarrassment.

 
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 4, 2015 at 1:31 am
 
In physics, theories are proven by experimentation. In mathematics, theories can be proven with formal logic. Are you familiar with Gödel’s ontological proof?
Not that I want to convince you of what Gödel proved. I can agree to disagree. No need to become enemies over this.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 July 4, 2015 at 1:41 am
 
I am familiar with the ontological argument, and I agree with Dawkins’ assessment that it is essentially a word salad and piece of trickery that doesn’t bear serious scrutiny.
But I strongly suggest you look closer at what a theory is in the context of science. Your comments suggest you aren’t fully versed on that score… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

 
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 4, 2015 at 2:03 am
 
It says “A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation”
I see no cause for embarrassment on my part.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 July 4, 2015 at 2:11 am
 
If you see no contradiction with your earlier assertion that “a theory is just an idea until proven by experimentation,” then no, there is no cause for embarrassment.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 ScotWm says:

 July 3, 2015 at 5:54 pm
 
I’m glad to see that author Steven Hassan has credited Randall Watters with helping him understand the Watchtower’s cult-like attributes. I have read some of the experiences of Randall Watters and I was particularly impressed with his conclusions as to the operation of Bethel leadership.
According to Watters, all of the constantly-changing Watchtower doctrinal inventions are done for one purpose; to control the masses. The actual doctrines are irrelevant. Convincing others, through the use of clever manipulation, is the key to allowing the Governing Body to maintain power. The literature, meetings, assemblies and field service are all used to control the minds of Watchtower followers. Any who openly doubt the teachings of the power-hungry Governing Body are thrown out of the organization. Not surprisingly, Watchtower leaders have a history of trying to control each other.
After the death of Watchtower founder Charles Russell, Joseph Rutherford engaged in a power grab and gained control of the Watchtower. This was done against the expressed wishes of Russell. More power struggles followed as Fred Franz rose to the top and became the Watchtower’s undisputed prophet. Recently, Pastor Russell was stripped of his faithful slave status. At the same time, all of the remaining 144,000, who claim to have the heavenly calling, were also striped of their faithful slave status. So now, only a handful of high-ranking Watchtower leaders, those who comprise the Governing Body, are left to fight among themselves for the top spot. If Watchtower history is any indication, the members of the Governing Body are already plotting against each other as each one tries to gain control over the others.
As Randall Watters said, it’s all about control. Will some of the faithful eventually see what is really going on at Watchtower headquarters? We can only hope.
Reply
 
 
 Sheree says:

 July 4, 2015 at 3:24 am
 
So proud to see your experience in the book Lloyd! I downloaded it as soon as I heard about it. Well done. Your story can help so many.
Reply
 
 
 Ted says:

 July 4, 2015 at 8:08 am
 
So many good points in your article Lloyd. The quote
 from Steven’s book about, countries that grant tax exemption
 to cults like JWs, should be held responsible for the harm
 inflicted by them. Is very sound.
Also, information is the key to complete freedom. The Org,
 wants to keep us in, pre- 1980s ignorance. Some totalitarian
 regimes, have put people to death for owning a cell phone.
The WTS, can’t go to these extremes, or even ban us from
 owning computers etc. So ludicrous statements like
“Sharing at the table demons” are used to frighten people off.
Only their own jw,org site is recommended as safe. The same
 tactic is employed by the one family controlled regime of
 N,Korea. They have just one, “State Controlled” TV station.
Life after JWdom. What do we replace it with?– “Freedom”!
Reply
 
 
 Bret says:

 July 4, 2015 at 2:01 pm
 
Cedar;
 Since you are writing a book and it includes some history. Thought you might research and do a video of this:
 1)There are accusations made that Rutherford was expelled from Bethell by Russell for conduct and drinking.
 2) Rutherfords take over of the Watchtower and turning it into a “Organization” is not what it truly is or happened in the proclaimers book.
 Rutherford began anslow process of takng control of every congregation except a few who would not submitt and introduced mind controlling doctrine through fear Phobias such as a new “Armegeddon” quite different from what Russell taugh. Along with many other control phobia doctrines..
 A true look at his take over and perhaps his evolution of this group into an organization cult.
Reply
 
 
 Finn Sawyer says:

 July 5, 2015 at 11:40 am
 
I bought this book and have been flipping through it as I have time. The parallels Mr. Hassan highlights between JWs and other cults methodologies are striking.
Not to discredit the latest edition, but I think I will purchase the older edition as well. I want to have it on-hand in the event I can share it with my JW family and friends. As stated, since the older edition did not mention JWs I think it might still be in “safe” territory, whereas I believe currently indoctrinated JWs would reject the new book outright after seeing how it includes JWs in its cult descriptions. The October 2015 Watchtower (study edition) article entitled “The Naive Person Believes Every Word” instructs JWs to reject anything that isn’t positive about the org–an unbelievable request to ask of anyone with a brain IMO. Mr. Hassan, if you’re reading this: I am not a cult expert but the article I referenced above seems striking in its attempt at mind control–might make an excellent excerpt for your next edition!
Reply
 
 
 Sardec says:

 July 6, 2015 at 11:03 am
 
Just reading the BITE model online 2 years ago is what woke me up.
Reply
 
 JWIntellect says:

 July 7, 2015 at 3:55 pm
 
That’s apart of what woke me up as well!
Just got through purchasing the the 25th Anniversary edition of Combating Cult Mind control on Amazon. I’m so excited to start reading it.
Reply
 
 
 
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← The Book Corner – Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
The must-read story of a ministerial servant and his wife who woke up in the last few months →
 
Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant
avatar 
Posted on July 6, 2015

Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse
Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse

Governing Body member Tony Morris has used the July 2015 episode of JW Broadcasting to indulge in an astonishing rant about child abuse, seemingly in response to the onslaught of negative publicity Watchtower has faced in recent years.
In his nine-minute statement on the matter, Morris shows two video presentations and reads from a 1982 Awake! magazine in attempting to make the case that Watchtower has always been “pro-active” in making the protection of children a “top priority.”
At one point, Morris unleashes an astonishing swipe at gay people in an apparent attempt to scapegoat homosexuals as being the main perpetrators of child abuse. “It [an Awake! article] warned about homosexual men who prey on and advocate the right to use boys for sex. Shame on them!” he says. (See time stamp 02:49 in the video below.)


The 1982 “‘Chickens’ and ‘Hawks'” article to which Morris alludes is a shameless piece of propaganda blaming homosexuals in general for child prostitution rings that flourished in the 80s and 90s, and which society itself has condemned (such as in the 1994 award-winning documentary “Chicken Hawk: Men Who Love Boys“). (See Wikipedia article)
Morris’ exploitation of this isolated controversy to make a sweeping generalization about gay people represents only the latest example of what appears to be a pattern of homophobic bigotry above and beyond even the scathing condemnation of gays and lesbians found in Watchtower publications.
Last year Morris was voted one of 2014’s craziest “right-wing nutjobs” by Advocate magazine for his baffling comments at last year’s United States Branch Visit, at which he warned of a conspiracy whereby homosexuals are designing tight clothing merely to lust after men’s bodies. (See time stamp 03:20 in the video below.)


And only recently, at the 2015 regional convention, Morris made a not-so-thinly-veiled declaration of his disapproval at Ireland’s recent referendum legalizing same-sex marriage.


Clearly Morris has an axe to grind against homosexuals for reasons best known to himself, but that he should mobilize his bigotry against gays in defense of the organization’s outrageous record on mishandling child abuse is bewildering to say the least.
Head in the sand
Homophobic scapegoating aside, Morris’ comments are a fascinating example of the organization’s “head in the sand” approach in the face of mounting media scrutiny of Watchtower’s child abuse track record.
This strategy was most recently deployed by Stephen Lett, who used a recorded “morning worship” speech to claim that media attention on the issue was nothing but “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
As much as activists like myself desperately wish there to be no problem in this area, and as much as we yearn for JW children to be protected, various facts are well-documented and glaringly obvious, namely:
◾Watchtower has been found legally responsible for its mishandling of child abuse in courts of law on several occasions in two different countries (see articles on Candace Conti, Jose Lopez and the latest UK high court judgment), in some cases being ordered to pay multimillion dollar damages for their negligence
◾Watchtower gathers and holds information concerning an unknown number of pedophiles, thought to number into the thousands, on a database. Watchtower admitted the existence of the database in a 2002 fax to the BBC, and it lost the Jose Lopez case in part because it refused to divulge the contents of the database in that particular trial. (See this Huffington Post interview video.)
◾Watchtower publications do not urge parents to report allegations of child abuse to authorities in all instances
◾Watchtower elders have been criticized for covering up instances of child abuse from the authorities, as in the cases of Mark Sewell, Jonathan Rose and Gordon Leighton
◾Watchtower instructions to elders in the 2010 Shepherd the Flock of God book and subsequent instructional letters uphold the “two witness rule,” whereby if there is no witness to an allegation of child molestation (or no allegation from a second victim is forthcoming) elders are to “leave matters in Jehovah’s hands,” as the following scan clearly shows
◾Watchtower instructions to elders also maintain the position that the branch office, not the police, should be the first to hear of a report of abuse, and that past child molestation does not necessarily bar someone from serving as an elder in the congregation
child-sex-abuseNone of the above pressing issues are addressed or even alluded to in Morris’ nine-minute statement. Instead he heaps praise on the organization for taking “a decisive stand,” for being “pro-active,” and for making the safeguarding of children a “top priority.”
A reputation to be proud of?
Morris even summons the gall to claim: “We are proud of our reputation in this regard.” Irrespective of what Morris or other Governing Body members may think of their handling of child abuse, if there is one thing beyond dispute in this area, it is that Watchtower’s reputation is not one to be proud of.
One possible strategy Morris might have employed if he had an ounce of humility would be to throw his hands up and admit that, like other organizations, Watchtower was simply caught off guard at a time when the threat posed by child abuse wasn’t fully understood.
Instead, Morris adopts the reverse approach by suggesting the organization was always ahead of the game while secular authorities were floundering and “somewhat naive” as to the magnitude of the problem.
As an example of Watchtower’s foresight he parades the “landmark” 1982 Awake! magazine as highlighting the scourge of child abuse over thirty years ago. But it should go without saying that it is one thing to highlight child abuse as a problem, but another thing entirely to offer effective advice.
For example, the article in that magazine titled “To End Child Abuse” gives the following advice, few aspects of which can be considered especially relevant…
◾“[The bible] calls for close communication between parent and child”
◾“[Psychologists] say parents must be fair and set good examples, but children need regulations and discipline”
◾Sex education promotes masturbation and homosexuality. “Regardless of the pros and cons of sex education, the hard fact is the tremendous increase in child prostitution, sodomy, pornography and incest.”
◾“In God’s due time all who embrace his kingdom under Christ will become able to keep this law of love perfectly… This is the only way, the final way, to end child abuse.”
Watchtower’s 1982 guidance on protecting children from predators thus called for (1) better communication between parents and children, (2) strong parental discipline, (3) less sex education and (4) God’s kingdom. This advice, claims Morris, “straightforwardly addressed” the issue and, combined with subsequent magazine articles can be considered as exonerating Watchtower.
What Morris doesn’t mention is that not one of the magazine articles on child abuse published over the last few decades specifically tell Witness parents to go to the authorities with any and all allegations of abuse, which is surely the first priority in the wake of a crime of such magnitude being perpetrated. One 1993 Awake! article even goes so far as to suggest that, in certain cases, “the legal system may offer little hope of successful prosecution.” (Awake! 1993 10/8 page 9)
Morris attempts to throw up a smokescreen early in his presentation by asserting: “Our policy as an organization is that one professing to be a victim, or his parents, should never be discouraged from reporting the incident to the appropriate authorities.” But this is nothing more than a play on words, and a deliberate attempt to deceive.
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath of an attack

True, Watchtower doesn’t expressly dissuade parents from going to the authorities, but it doesn’t persuade them either. Morris thus overtly relies on the ignorance of his audience regarding the nuances of Watchtower’s policies in an attempt to dupe them into thinking reporting is encouraged, even though the organization has yet to issue such instructions to elders despite repeated courtroom defeats.
At best, Watchtower literature over the decades has taught children to be able to identify predators and report such ones to their parents – the most recent example of which is the Caleb and Sophia cartoon presented by Morris in this video.
But teaching children to resist predators is only a fraction of any meaningful, effective child-safeguarding policy. The whole reason why child abuse is so evil is precisely because, for obvious reasons, children will always be vulnerable in the face of any sufficiently determined and opportunistic predatory pedophile, irrespective of how much resistance they put up.
Any child safeguarding policy worth its salt must thus adequately address what to do in the aftermath of an attack so that pedophiles are swiftly apprehended, and this is precisely where Watchtower falls woefully short. Parents are not told to go straight to the authorities by elders in every instance, they are merely informed that this is their “responsibility.”
Throw into the mix the perception that child abuse is a sin that the elders have a remit to investigate, the importance of “waiting on Jehovah,” the stigmatization of taking your “brother” to court, and fears surrounding slander and false accusations, and the likelihood of the police being left out of the loop entirely becomes all too apparent.
Worse than you think
I recently found myself in a phone conversation with a BBC journalist regarding Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse. I expressed to her my frustration at the perception among Witnesses and Watchtower apologists that so-called “apostates” like myself are exaggerating the problem of child abuse.
I told her that, if anything my colleagues and I are understating the magnitude of the problem, because some of the horrendous stories we hear about privately simply cannot be publicized for various reasons.
She replied: “Welcome to the world of journalism.” This, apparently, is the challenge all journalists face in covering important stories where the full grisly horror of what is happening simply cannot be revealed for a myriad of issues including privacy, court orders and so on.
Tony Morris and the Governing Body may desperately want there to be no problem regarding child abuse, but as the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire. When you add up the relentless stream of child abuse reports in the press, including several clear instances where Watchtower has been found guilty and ordered to pay eye-watering sums in compensation, it is clear that, far from being ahead of the game, the organization is ablaze with this problem.
And documented evidence in the organization’s own instructions to elders leaves the Governing Body red-handed in not taking child abuse seriously enough by considering it a sin first, and a crime second.
For all his bluster, boasting and outrageous gay-bashing, the frustration and desperation of Tony Morris and his fellow Governing Body members is becoming painfully obvious.
Putting their hands over their ears and saying “la, la, la” in the face of serious accusations of child safeguarding negligence may work for them personally, but this juvenile charade only adds to their culpability as court after court finds Watchtower negligent. And growing numbers of Jehovah’s Witnesses are seeing straight through it.
 
new-cedars-signature3
 
 
 
 
 
 
Further reading…
◾Rawstory: Jehovah’s Witness leader promotes child safety cartoon with homophobic rant
◾Freethinker: JW chief targets gays in child abuse video
◾Pink News: Jehovah’s Witness Leader, “homosexuals” are child abusers
◾Taze.co: Jehovah’s Witnesses link Homosexuality to Child Abuse in official Broadcast, like it’s 1979
◾JWvictims: The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses Blame Homosexuals for the Pedophilia in Their Religion
◾Stephen Lett slams “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” concerning child abuse record
◾After his branch visit performance, is “Tight Pants Tony” now a liability for the Governing Body?
◾“We will decide who is a predator!” – New Watchtower Instructions to Elders on Child Abuse
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
A full video rebuttal of the JW Broadcasting episode in question is forthcoming, and will be embedded at the foot of this article when complete.


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← The Book Corner – Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
The must-read story of a ministerial servant and his wife who woke up in the last few months →
 
63 Responses to Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant


Newer Comments →
 
 dontknowwheretogo says:

 July 6, 2015 at 7:15 am
 
It is not so much WHAT iTony is ranting about that I enjoy but the fact that he IS ranting, and ranting way more than the other GB members.
He reveals his true colors, what is in his heart (a scripture came to mind but I forget) and it is becoming clearer and clearer this man is not “right” and has “issues”.
He will become a valuable tool in waking up others, ironic isn’t?
Lloyd, perhaps you should call him to tell him he is deluded and helping others wake up to TTATT…oh wait…
Any more details on your chat with the BBC? It is annoying there is not more coverage…Conti case gets settled and there is hardly a peep from any mediastreams…
Reply
 
 
 StrongHaiku says:

 July 6, 2015 at 7:43 am
 
I have a hypothesis, that others may feel free to shoot down, but seeing these types of incendiary statements from the GB makes me think that this may be a reaction to their own irrelevance.
I was indoctrinated with the idea that JWs were so special and important that Armageddon would come when they would draw the anger of the nations, etc. and be persecuted. That has not happened.
I often think this is some type of strategy (whether conscious or not) by the GB to get the world to notice them. I can imagine being in the 21st century as a JW beginning to realize that most people don’t really care what JWs think, stand for, etc.
What do you do when you seem irrelevant? What do you do when the promised persecution/Great Tribulation has not come? Well, maybe you get in people’s faces and say controversial things and try to create the situation. Maybe they are trying to draw the ire of the world and spin that as persecution. If this is their strategy we should expect more and more controversial public statements and doubling down on controversial doctrines (e.g. blood, shunning, etc.).
Of course I could be wrong…
Reply
 
 Badshah says:

 July 6, 2015 at 8:38 am
 
I don’t have a credible source for this, but I read ‘somewhere’ that your explanation was exactly why Rutherford came up with the no blood policy, to draw the ire of the world and spark persecution. I wish I could find where I read that.
Reply
 
 
 JWIntellect says:

 July 7, 2015 at 3:12 pm
 
When I was in the religion I really thought, as did many other former Jehovah’s Witnesses, that we were truly a “theatrical spectacle to the world,” but I’ve since come to the immediate realization since abandoning the organization that, quite frankly, no one gives a damn about Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are an irrelevant, insignificant bunch to the world that no one even thinks about. The idea of being the center of attention was merely an illusion.
Your hypothesis isn’t too far fetched. It sounds credible to me. The nations are not paying any attention to Jehovah’s Witnesses and so their leaders are attempting to garner this attention by making provocative and incendiary comments about extremely sensitive issues.
I think one of the reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses were so intensely anti-Catholic in its early days was because of its own less than prominent status in comparison to the Catholic Church. The Governing Body and the Watchtower in no way, shape, or form have the kind of influence and power that the Pope and the Catholic Church have in the world, and so it would only seem right in their eyes to attack the big man on campus in order to gain some clout themselves.
Reply
 
 holy Connoli says:

 July 8, 2015 at 6:02 am
 
@JWintellect. I thought about it the same as you regarding the Catholic Church and the WT viscous attacks on Catholicism. They attacked the Catholics the Most bc they were the Biggest! The when the Catholics attacked back or defended themselves it somehow gave “credibility” to the WT! They could claim and argue see, we are being persecuted..we are somebody! See! They hate us for preaching the Word of God and we are the ONLY ONES doing it! SEE! We are significant! IN Reality when you leave the WT you realize nobody really cares or gives a Rat’s Arse about the JW’s or what they teach or say especially since 100% of their prophecies or predictions have NEVER come true! Not 1 thing they ever uttered in prophecy has proven true.
SOmetimes when I am with people or business friends we may see somew Jw’s wandering on the streets and I say look! ARe those JW’s? WHat are they doing? They look lost out here, what do they believe? Hardly a reaction from y associates or friends. A few may say, Oh I have a cousin or a work mate who is a JW. Or, Oh yea they thin the end of the World is coming soon, Or..are they the ones who don’t salute the flag or don’t take blood transfusions? Nobody takes them serious or that they have this great ALL IMPORTANT message? Tp the majority of humanity they are insignificant despite what they thin about themselves.
Reply
 
 
 
 Criticus says:

 July 16, 2015 at 6:06 am
 
(2nd attempt to get this posted – am I blacklisted? If yes, please let me know why. Thanks.)
Remember the “arrow in the running priests’s butt”-pic? Or the WTS’s insolent “God will destroy you and your Nazi party”-letter to Hitler? That’s what u r talking about. Now, THAT drew some irate clergymen’s or politicians’ attention, and triggered the wave of persecutions that dropped on the JWs during the beginning of the previous century. It was all self-inflicted, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then, they cheered: “Hoorai! WE are the real deal, we are the ‘true Christians’, bec. Jesus said ‘ You will be persecuted’ ” – but stop: Jesus also said (and the JW ignore this): “You will be persecuted BECAUSE OF MY NAME!” That’s the difference. JW did not get persecuted bec. they were Christians, but bec. they blindly followed the manmade rules of erroneous little men who deluded themselves into believing they have godlike authority. That’s why in Germany for example, the JW (formerly called “Earnest Bible Students”) are NOT considered as “exemplary” when it comes to resistance to the Nazis, not like Bonhöffer, Niemöller, the “Red Chapel” or the “Solf-Circle” for example, who suffered bec. of adherence to their Christian principles, not to manmade org-rules. Well, lets’ see when their “in your face”-tactics will bear some fruits – some real bitter ones.
Reply
 
 
 
 Faithful Witness says:

 July 6, 2015 at 7:55 am
 
As a non-JW victim of child sexual abuse myself, I know how hard it is to report abuse to your own parents. I was not subjected to the intimidation faced by JW kids, and it still took me 4 years to say anything to my mom. When I brought this topic up with my (now) JW mother after the Candace Conti verdict, she replied with accusations of greed on the part of alleged victims.
Blame the victim? These ARE Witnesses of Jehovah… (or WERE, until they started making up stories about those who are supposed to be protecting them…??)
How can you be proud to represent an organization that refuses to protect the most innocent and helpless among them?
I continue to watch my family get more divided, as my parents & sister surrender their minds & lives to this high-control religious organization. If an adult wants to give up their worldly ways and join a rule and work-based religion, that is one thing. Children of JW’s have no say in the matter.
Reply
 
 Cognitive Loop says:

 July 6, 2015 at 9:17 am
 
Good to see you again, FW. Hope things get better for you and yours. Plus I am very glad to see that you stood up well against the “elderettes” and their continued attempts to get you to come back to the indoctrination-fest, aka meetings.
Reply
 
 
 
 Mama Joy says:

 July 6, 2015 at 8:05 am
 
Um….When was pedophillia the “new morality”?
Also, saying you protect kids doesn’t make it so.
I was told to not tell on my Dad to child services because then he would be taken to jail and it would be my fault.
Then the scripture about not taking a brother to court was used and I was told I would go live with worldly people and if anything happened to my Dad in prison it would be all my fault and I would be blood guilty in Jehovah’s eyes.
The elders knew and said I needed to be more obedient. I had to secretly video record him before they would do anything…., then they made it their mission to punish me for getting my Dad disfellowshipped. They sent spies (concerned sisters) to grill me for anything they could pin on me.
This video sounds good, like they actually help children, but the reality is way different.
If you try to go to “proper authorities” (law enforcement or them only???) they will insist they handle the issue. And believe me they will talk to the person and that’s it. Your child will have to go to the meetings with their abuser and then as a parent if you tell the police, they will disfellowship you (for imprisoning a brother and not going through Gods proper channels).
Reply
 
 
 tosch says:

 July 6, 2015 at 8:12 am
 
I can’t help thinking that, when Toni Morris stresses the ‘appropriate authorities’, he might have a different definition in mind than we do. By adding ‘appropriate’, he seems to somehow include the elders… or am I wrong here?
Reply
 
 K. W. Burggraf says:

 July 11, 2015 at 7:29 pm
 
No, You’re absolutely right. I picked up on that immediately. I’m sure he means not only “including” the elders but “excluding” the police. Isn’t this stressed in the elders’ handbook for dealing with such situations?
Reply
 
 
 
 Cognitive Loop says:

 July 6, 2015 at 8:30 am
 
He states, “However, to take advantage of innocent young ones is absolutely despicable. As a religious organization, we have taken a decisive stand against such behavior” (approx 40 second mark).
Couple of things:
Firstly, they made make taking advantage of young ones into an art form. Someone quoted a gov body member that some child of 5yo had been ‘pioneering since 4yo and was now still pioneering at age 10′. Also, teenagers should have their drivers licenses used as leverage, in order to get dunked into a lifetime of servitude to this real estate corporation.
Secondly, the legal weasel-language is strong in that second quoted sentence. “As a religious organization, we cherry pick which scriptures back up our stance” would be much more accurate. They use Deuteronomy 19:15 to hold up as original two witness “law”, which had everything to do with REAL ESTATE, not rape. Yet if you page over to Deuteronomy 22:25, it actually discusses rape and that the woman needs no other witness if she was somewhere where no one would hear her screams. “[…] only the man who has done this shall die.”
But the real good news is this: they are feeling it, as far as the blowback of their misuse of the scriptures and horrible treatment of victims goes. The internet is shining a light on these virtual cockroaches (the gov body being the topmost ones) and their heinous behavior towards victims, including courtroom behavior, such as Gordon Leighton case, where elders refused to state the man confessed to molesting the child! And whole congregations standing behind the guilty elder, only on his side of the courtroom, leaving the victim and family to stand alone.
– – –
“Courtroom shenanigans
Rose arrived for his trial at Manchester Crown Court with an entourage of Witness supporters, including several elders. But this inundation of fans did not impress the judge.
With the trial threatening to descend into a circus on only the first day, the judge ordered that the court’s public gallery and even the waiting area should be off-limits to all but family and those involved in the proceedings.
Despite this ruling, certain elders are said to have ignored orders by trying to sit beside Rose in a public show of support – even though this was to lead to their ejection from the courtroom. The pleas of one elder to present evidence in support of Rose were similarly denied after complaints from the victims’ side.
Watchtower representatives emerge
A surprising feature of the trial was the arrival of two Watchtower representatives from bethel towards the end of the first week. Both were relatively young, perhaps in their thirties. Their identities are as yet unknown.
The victims’ side looked on in disgust as, for the remaining days of the trial, these representatives sat firmly on the defendant’s side of the courtroom, consulting with Rose and making it clear as to on whose side their allegiance fell.
Only when confronted emotionally by one of the victims’ family members on the final day of the trial did they accept that their behavior in supporting Rose so openly was inappropriate. After this exchange, they elected to sit in a more neutral position from that point onwards.”
– – –
^ That ain’t even the half of it, as they say.
Yup, the Watchtower sure hates deplorable behavior and stands firmly against child abuse/molesters.
edit – Not sure why my replies are not coming through. Hoping this one will.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 July 6, 2015 at 11:11 am
 
Good point about Deuteronomy 22:25. A two witness requirement does not apply to sexual crimes. The same chapter says rape is like murder, where there may be no witnesses at all. Nevertheless, the one found guilty is put to death.
Common sense says a two witness requirement cannot apply to sexual crimes. I don’t expect much common sense from the GB though. They claim to be the “faithful and discreet slave” without consulting the master.
Not much common sense in that.
Reply
 
 Cognitive Loop says:

 July 7, 2015 at 1:12 pm
 
They have zero proof that they are indeed chosen by god. Funny how a child who is raped must produce two witnesses against his/her attacker, and yet the Gov Bod need no proof that they are who they claim to be.
Terry over at JWN pointed out that “Annointed” is an interesting title for these Brooklyn-based false prophet clowns to lay claim to: Hebrew translates the word to “Messiah”, and in Greek it translates as “Christós” or Christ.
Reply
 
 
 
 Queen Elsa says:

 July 8, 2015 at 1:18 am
 
That behavior makes me sick… I’m at a loss as to what to do for my two young children being raised in my once loved beliefs… :(
Reply
 
 
 
 Brad says:

 July 6, 2015 at 8:32 am
 
This is becoming more laughable from the perspective of those of us who have left and have lifted the veil.
Sadly, it becomes sadder and sadder these attempts by the GB in their literature, broadcasts, morning worships, cartoons, and letters to elders have little to no effect on the masses because of their minds.
Unless something changes in the court systems the WT will continue to shell out payments that will hurt it but not cripple it, and they will continue to grow and deceive more people.
I want to post links to all of these articles on my public social media pages since I know all of my former friends check my page from time to time but this will drive them right away since they will see it as Satan’s deceptive propaganda. He is the ruler of this world and controls the media after all with his master puppeteer skills..
The WT is doing the only thing they know how: portray an image of what they want to be believe and instill fear if you believe anything else.
Hope change is coming some time soon. As the org grows, so will the amount of children being taken advantage of.
Reply
 
 
 Jerry O Connor says:

 July 6, 2015 at 9:30 am
 
Hello to all.
 Morris is a homophobic gob shite! Cracks are most definitely appearing in watchtower. Trying to justify a non cooperation with the police. “He doth protest too much” would seem to apply to tight pants. Could Morris be the weakest link in the weakest chain? The more the public here what vitriol he spouts, the better. Still watchtower hides child rapists and its hands are covered in the blood of those murdered with the heinous blood issue. They make me mad
Reply
 
 
 Kat says:

 July 6, 2015 at 11:10 am
 
Once again they use a foolish picture of a small girl, dolly in hand telling her “father” or some man a firm NO! As if that would work, in your own bedroom, with you fully dressed and I could go on. That is not an accurate portrayal of the problem, and as usual it will put the blame for sexual assault on the victim. Katie darling, did you tell Elder Jackson a firm NO! when he asked to see under your dress? Yes, brothers I did, I told him NO! and said Jehovah doesn’t like this! Good girl, your free to go and Elder Jackson you too may go and geez Willie, next time hit up a worldly girl!!!! You guys are making our job tougher than it needs be…makes me sick but that is the way my case went.
Reply
 
 
 Daniel O'Brien says:

 July 6, 2015 at 12:25 pm
 
Cedars, that was one of the most balanced and clear articles that you have ever written on this subject.
A very bright light needs to be continuously shone on this problem if it is ever to be eradicated.
Well done!
Reply
 
 
 Jill Hileman says:

 July 6, 2015 at 12:32 pm
 
Hi Lloyd,
Would you consider taking the above child abuse handling bullet points along with the literature references only and creating a document or article specifically for use in forwarding to Witnesses who are fence-sitting?
If I sent this article as is, it would be immediately ignored, labeled propaganda. But mothers of young children deserve to know these facts, being obscured by the GB.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 July 7, 2015 at 12:32 am
 
That’s a good suggestion Jill, thank you. I am considering making a YouTube video of JUST those points with the aim of putting Witnesses in the picture in the face of an apparent determined effort on the part of the Governing Body to misinform on this issue.
Reply
 
 
 
 Ted says:

 July 6, 2015 at 1:21 pm
 
Morris’s feigned concern for children is sickening.
 Sure they’re worried about Paedophillia in their org.
 But mainly because of the bad publicity, and the effect
 it will have on recruitment, and possible defection.
 Plus the cost of expensive litigation and the threat to
 their tax exempt status.
If they were “Genuinely” concerned. They would drop
 the two witness rule. It’s entirely inapplicable to a crime
 where the perp, goes to great lengths, to make sure
 there’ll be no observers. And how cruel to demand from
 a distressed child, that they produce such witnesses.
 otherwise it’s only their word against another’s .
They have no right nor the appropriate training to subject
 children to such a harrowing inquisition. I repeat. If they
 we’re genuinely concerned. They would, without further
 delay, issue instructions to elders. To immediately hand
 over any complaints. To the Police.
Morris’s statement that they are concerned, that even no
“Emotional Harm” should come to a child. Are just empty
 words, propaganda. They will fool many. But not those
 who are aware, of the methods and motives of this corrupt,
 Godless and materialistic org.
Reply
 
 
 Richard E. Kelly says:

 July 6, 2015 at 3:51 pm
 
Kudos to you, Lloyd. You were definitely in good-fighting form on this post, well armed with the facts on your side. Too bad that cognitive dissonance is alive and well in Watchtower Land, because an article like this should have spawned a mass exodus.
Reply
 
 
 Grace says:

 July 6, 2015 at 4:39 pm
 
Another great article but god it makes my blood boil.
“We are proud of our reputation in this regard.”
Proud of their reputation!! Incase they hadn’t noticed, their reputation is that they hide child molesters & throw victims under the bus to save their deluded reputation.
Also, when a dirty old man rapes a little girl. It just has to be the gays fault. (sarcasm).
These royal hyenas are just clutching at anything. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is an attempt to get their propaganda in before the Australian Royal Commission comes out & airs the dirty laundry that has been soaking in the mire for so long. On the 27th of July, the hearing will be aired to the public. I hope that those that have secretly suffered will come out & speak. My feelings are that they wouldn’t be pursuing it if there wasn’t enough evidence to see a problem that needs addressing.
Reply
 
 
 David says:

 July 6, 2015 at 4:56 pm
 
Tony just follow the usual cult protocol. They can condemn no JWs to death if they do not acknowledge
 the GB as the only channel between God and Mankind (role according to the Bible belonging only to Christ) but feel persecuted to the slightest criticism. But I think this is a win for the “apostate” community. The GB will be forced to change their policies and report pedophiles to authorities. At least we should be happy that children will be more protected. I guess next we have to teach the GB and make people more aware that people should not be ostracised if the choose to leave their denominations just like they want to be free to preach their half truths.
It is also strange that Tony feel persecuted when JW.org shows clear signs of wealth. It displays a new suit on every appearance and the usual “godfather” style pinky ring.
 An appearance radically different then Jesus Christ’s.
Reply
 
 
 Eric says:

 July 6, 2015 at 5:40 pm
 
Thank you so much Cedars for your articles. Having just woken up from JW mind control in October, I still suffer from ptsd and attacks from my cult personality. I find great comfort and encouragement in your articles and videos. The time and well thought out preparation cannot be undersold. What you are doing is a true service and I thank you for it.
Reply
 
 JWIntellect says:

 July 7, 2015 at 3:20 pm
 
Happy to hear you’ve exited!
Reply
 
 
 
 Barb Moor says:

 July 6, 2015 at 6:07 pm
 
Caleb, Sophia! It’s YOUR fault for getting abused; your conscience was too weak! Bad boy! Bad girl!
The new video featuring the animated pair is really sneaky. Yes, kids should run away from predators. BUT, no focus is given on the predators themselves (such as known abusers within the organization). The way it is portrayed on the video, the burden is put on children to prevent abuse, according to their “trained” conscience. It doesn’t illustrate the reality that the parents could be the abusers themselves. It doesn’t show that there are times when it is physically impossible to get away from a predator (Elder Handy in the car group).
And what if the abuser threatens to kill beloved Mommy or Daddy (or baby brother) if Sophia does tell on them? Well, Sophia then has to decide: save them or myself? Sophia loves them so she’ll likely keep quiet, because predators are PROS at manipulation and deceit. This will go on and Sophia will comply with the predator thinking she’s protecting her family. You can picture Sophia in group therapy 15 years later with an addiction to meth to cope with the years of abuse, made worse by listening to talks that will make her think she is guilty for the abuse. All those talks on fornication will make her wonder, was I committing fornication? Why DIDN’T Mommy protect me? Why did Brother Creep give a talk on telling the truth at all times then tell me to lie to my parents?
She will have seen him at assemblies or meetings: maybe even giving a talk about porneia? Poor Sophia: her conscience wasn’t strong enough. She didn’t outwit a cunning adult with years of manipulative skills! And then, why didn’t Jehovah protect her? Was she not worthy of protection, given all the theocratic examples of children who were spared suffering ‘because they listened’? Apparently not, because it happened to her. Sophia will end up depressed, lonely, fearful, and likely lacking in any sort of faith. If she even remains in the organization (she’ll have so little self-worth she may stay in it out of fear), she’ll become one of the “weak” ones looked down upon by the strong because she’s not perky and happy and glowing with the good news. She’ll go downhill, while the way this organization works, the abuser will be promoted.
Ironically, the watchers of this stupid video will likely be praising the organization for its helpfulness and loving concern, ignoring that Elder Handy and Brother Creep are right there in their hall, maybe sitting next to them at meeting. Other elders in the hall may know, but they won’t warn parents. Because the loving organization that has cared SO much for SO long has said not to divulge those little details. You’re on your own, Sophia and Caleb! Good luck with that!
Reply
 
 John says:

 July 8, 2015 at 12:49 am
 
Barb, that’s a fantastic comment.x
Reply
 
 
 Jean says:

 July 11, 2015 at 9:26 am
 
Well said, Barb. The hideous monster in the video is sofar from what actually happens, it makes me wonder why the GB actually believes this is “the truth”. The onus of responsibility is always put fairly and squarely on the shoulders of Joe Publisher, not on those making the policies. Will they ever wake up?
Reply
 
 
 
 Barb Moor says:

 July 6, 2015 at 6:28 pm
 
Boy, does Tony get heated up about homosexuals, doesn’t he? Latent much?
Seriously, he deliberately misleads the definition of a homosexual by implying that a homosexual is a pedophile. Big difference: the homosexuals I know have no interest in little boys or little girls.
It’s a cheap shot on Tony’s part (I feel I can be informal now that we are on a chatty basis via his constant tv appearances). His self-righteousness is disgusting. And really, his lies reinforce the same abusive tactic that predators use: listen to ME and no one else.
These people have no morals. Shame on the lying org, the congregations who hide sexual abusers, the elders who know what abuse has happened and have the benefit of protecting THEIR kids but not everyone else’s. Shame on the parents for trusting this org and letting some out-of-touch corporate shill tell them how to parent and tell them their kids are safe. And shame on Tony Morris for lying to children by acting like he cares.
Reply
 
 
 Thinking of leaving says:

 July 6, 2015 at 10:43 pm
 
Interestingly when I was awakening from my indoctrination and also becoming increasingly aware of the sex abuse problem, I was still an active publisher at the time. I thought that I would put it out there and gauge the reaction I would get from the R&F. Out of the dozen people I tried I couldn’t find one who said “I feel sorry for those victims and I hope they get the help and support they need.” The replies I got were mainly media hype and one even refused to admit the news report was real. The reply that really stands out in my mind is “don’t read overseas news papers because this is going to confuse me”. Yup child abuse can be put down to overseas news papers confusing me. About sums it all up really.
Reply
 
 bobow says:

 July 7, 2015 at 2:26 am
 
I have the same observation. every bro just denied the story, without even reading about it.
Reply
 
 holy Connoli says:

 July 8, 2015 at 6:18 am
 
@bobow: I still have a few JW friends I talk with sometimes or do some business with. When I bring up the Child Abuse issue to them and how rampant it is and the BAD 2 witness rule they seem unaware of how bad it is or they say something like Oh yes, I am gald those guys get DF’d! We have ZERO tolerance for anyone doing that! I point out the WT seems to protect them bc the 2 witness rule is impossible to enforce and they say well the bible does say that! I don’t think the R&F have any Idea how bad it really is.
Reply
 
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 July 10, 2015 at 4:26 am
 
Yes, I left for exactly the same reasons as you. No one cared. I did and so did my husband but all the Witnesses could think of was that we shouldn’t talk to others about such things because it looks bad for Jehovah and it must be from apostates. They could not have cared less about the innocent young lives that had been ruined and that the Society had caused all that misery and cruelty themselves to the victims. You see to the Watchtower Society there are no victims. Unforgivable.
Reply
 
 
 
 Syl says:

 July 7, 2015 at 3:11 am
 
Great analysis and rebuttal Lloyd. What you do is useful. Thanks for the time and effort you invest in this.
Reply
 
 
 chatpal says:

 July 7, 2015 at 4:25 am
 
the thing about the JW’s I know family included, in the U.S, is that they are not aware of any child abuse nor other sorts of crimes as this, they never hear any media coverage on any of these abuse cases. these people work, sleep shop, go to meetings and service and watch kids shows or home improvement shows or netflix or very little tv at all. They would have no idea why he was bringing up that article, orthe subject.I can hear my own mother , if hearing his comments, say” well the society must be preparing for a rise in child abuse issues, they are always ahead of the game” as if there is none and there might be in the near future. she literally thinks they are able to see future trends. its sickening, she finds no fault with these men, yet says that they do not claim to be perfect and ‘we do not worship them’ such mental hypocrisy she displays against herself, for Id be willing to bet my right arm she knows deep down in her heart, something isnt right , after all she often says things that are her own opinion, and does things contrary to what the jw suggestions are, and even gets told about it, [like going up to a door when there is a sign that says beware of dog, and then giving ‘jehovah’ the credit for her not getting bit,lol] but she being 73 has been in this so long it would make not a bit of difference to change now.
Reply
 
 Barb Moor says:

 July 8, 2015 at 7:47 pm
 
Respectfully I disagree. JW’s secretly watch ALL the televisions shows that are “inappropriate” most of the time: they just don’t tell. They aren’t sitting home watching JW.ORG except to be able to SAY that they watch it (likely on fast forward). Most are just as fake as the GB.
And child abuse stories are everywhere, even a commercial for Law and Order SVU makes it pretty clear. They can’t say they didn’t know when every storyline in just about every show or book has child abuse in it.
But I totally get what you are saying: most people know deep down things aren’t adding up, but they are afraid to admit it out loud for the backlash it’d cause.
Reply
 
 
 
 Bart says:

 July 7, 2015 at 9:12 am
 
I will never forget this guy. He’s the one that really changed my perception (lost respect) of the governing body a last year at the annual meeting and his infamous tight pants and spanks talk. But it wasn’t those things in particular that turned me off as much as his overall demeanor and his smug approach to those who aren’t worshiping the way he thinks they should, or who’s parenting efforts were not good enough to keep their children in the truth, etc. I was disgusted by it all, and continue to be. That day, when I saw him speak for the very first time, I thought, ‘How can this possibly be God’s chosen group of men to lead us all?’. I lost a lot of faith in the “faithful and discreet slave” that day, despite the other governing body members’ loving and warm demeanor. The fact that this loony is in the group speaks volumes, and while some JW’s laugh it off or downplay his antics by means of memes on Instagram or what have you, most people are so blind that they think he’s brave for calling things like they are, just like Peter was constantly an outspoken member of Jesus disciples. Since that time, I’ve read Crisis of Conscience and honestly it sent me into a bit of depression, learning things that would shake any Witness’s faith to the core. I literally cried for that man when I realized he died several years ago, and all that he had gone through. It left me feeling alone too, and I still feel like there is no easy way out or in.
Reply
 
 Paul says:

 July 8, 2015 at 2:14 am
 
Bart,
 I felt the same way after reading Crisis of Conscience, but that quickly lead me to reading his second book and that explained a future course that made sense to me. I have not been to a meeting since, and I am determined to forge a new life free from the hypocrisy and falsity of the GB. If you think Morris is weird what the heck is Lett about?
 If Jehovah is choosing these guys the the world is in deep doo doo. My guess is that they are actually the man of lawlessness, the evil slave.
Reply
 
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 July 7, 2015 at 10:48 am
 
Bart,
Welcome to your freedom, sir! If you are still a person of faith, then take comfort in the teaching that Jesus is always with you.
If you are like me, an atheist, then it’s time to find your own path.
Either way, you are well rid of any association with an organisation with such an appalling record.
I wish you the best of luck, Bart.
Folks, Anthony has given us such an excellent response to the child abuse scandal in the WTBTS! He is proud of their record, and of his involvement and support of it. The latest Caleb and Sophia video is disgraceful. Telling a manipulative sociopathic paedophile to stop will work out fine!!!!!
This second attempt to deflect proper scrutiny of the WTBTS’ child abuse policies and cover ups will be a powerful recruitment sergeant for our cause.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
I hope that this idiot is called to defend his policies in court some time soon.
Reply
 
 
 Freedom says:

 July 7, 2015 at 7:27 pm
 
Dear Anthony Morris: Homosexuals do not sexually abuse children. Pedophiles sexually abuse children. There is a difference. Perhaps your research department should educate itself. Numerous organizations state the following: 1 out of 5 girls will be sexually abused as a child while 1 out of 20 boys will be sexually abused as a child. It would appear that a girl is at a higher risk – so who is abusing the girls? If we follow your logic that homosexuals abuse little boys, then heterosexuals abuse little girls. Therefore, shame on all heterosexual men. I look forward to your next Awake article condemning “the heterosexuals” for their deviant, disgusting behavior. I also look forward to another one of your broadcasts where you assure all JWs that the organization does everything it can to protect the congregation from “the heterosexuals”.
Reply
 
 
 ES says:

 July 7, 2015 at 8:23 pm
 
Very well written and accurate; thank you Cedars. You’re correct in that Tony is way off on describing WT position in the topic of child abuse. A close family member to me is currently fighting a legal battle over the issue of child sex abuse within the JW org, and my devout parents have acknowledged that the society has handled these child cases quite poorly. I’m curious to know what the thought while watching this episode of JWB.
Reply
 
 
 ruthlee says:

 July 8, 2015 at 1:32 am
 
this mans demeanor disturbs me i try to be objective and hope he has our best interests at heart but ive come to realise all this talk and exposure is just that before there is genuine decisive action these dishonourable men will shoot themselves in the foot meanwhile we look on pained and insulted i hope one day that i can roar with laughter at such feeble nonsense but at the moment things are a little too painful i do beleive GOD will have the final say and it will be heard by everyone there will be no excuses ha ha bring it on
Reply
 
 
 Paul says:

 July 8, 2015 at 2:06 am
 
It is just another example of avoiding the real issues and putting up straw men and knocking them down with old magazines that do not address the issues either. Here are old men who are totally out of touch with reality because they believe their own imaginary world.
 Unfortunately virtually zero active JWs will pay any attention to facts from outside sources, so he can spout rubbish and avoid reality and all the sheep will bleat in total (ignorant) approval. Till an avalanche of bad press engulfs them they will refuse to admit the mountain of evidence.
Reply
 
 
 David says:

 July 8, 2015 at 3:20 am
 
He gives a distorted impression of the matter. The broadcast starts with persecution to prepare the minds of the listeners. Then it just gives a one sided account of the issue. They criticise other religions but for what I can see they have no decency. When something happen to others they are quick to share articles. When jw.org is criticised then the media are of the devil.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous says:

 July 8, 2015 at 5:00 am
 
Tony Morris skipped over the article in the June 22,1982 titled “Rape at Home” which was about incest. This is what one of the paragraphs said, quoting from an outside source and even giving us the page of that outside source:
“On page 129 of the book “The Death of Innocence”, we read: “Among prostitutes, the frequency of sexual molestation in childhood is 92 percent; 67 percent of them experience some form of incestuous assault…At least 75 percent of he runaways, on the national average, are escaping incestuous abuse. The same figures apply to cases of adolescent drug addiction: About 70 percent are victims of incest.””
What is so ironic is that the June 22, 1982 Awake has in the very next article about child abuse an article “To End Child Abuse” and this is what it had to say was the remedy for this abuse:
“They know that bad family conditions cause children to run away from home, and that a high percentage of runaways end up on the streets and in prostitution and pornography and suffer appalling abuse. Some are escaping incest at home, homes broken by divorce, chronic conflicts with parents, lack of loving attention, and some are swayed by their peers. Whatever specific causes, the remedy is the healing of family breakdown. So say the experts. So does the Bible. It calls for close communication between parent and child.”
So, the Society has the first article about incest being the cause of most runaways who turn to prostitution and drugs and are abused by child pornography and the very next article saying that the remedy is better family communication between child and parent and they ignore the fact that the preceding article said that most children are abused by incest first before running away and getting abused. Do these people even read what they write?????
Also, I think the reason Tony Morris skipped the incest article is because he was hoping that most people would not have that old Awake magazine where they could double check what he was saying in that video about the incest article in that June Awake. There is absolutely no advice to help parents or young ones to be protected by pedophiles in those article and there is no advice to report abusers or rapists to the police. It is a useless rag that belongs in the garbage can and not “groundbreaking”.
Another reason Morris skipped the incest article is because what if Sophia’s father was her abuser???? According to the incest article, most children run away from incest and get abused because of incest!!!
Reply
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 July 8, 2015 at 5:23 am
 
This Governing Body member has obviously been informed about the upcoming Royal Commission Into Child Abuse in Australia. The Catholic Church has already been through the ringer for the past year about it as all their dirty washing has been hanging on the line for all to see and now the Witnesses have formally been told that they are next on the chopping block as from July 27th, 2015. I’ll bet he is worried that it will look like they are not trying enough to counteract the problem. It will be so interesting to see the outcome of the commission. They will probably expect to look exonerated but I think they will be shocked at the level of scrutiny.
Reply
 
 
 Brad says:

 July 8, 2015 at 9:06 am
 
I think we are all forgetting something. Think back for a moment to the days when you were a faithful witness who fully backed the organization and believed in these key points (I know, this is difficult to do):
1. Jehovah is the universal sovereign
 2. Jehovah has allowed suffering to continue to prove that he is a loving god and his way is the best way.
 3. There have always been some of Satan’s seed trying to incorporate themselves into Jehovah’s earthly organization and even if they last for a little while, eventually they will be found out and Jehovah will be the judge of them in the end.
 4. The Governing Body cannot ignore bible principles, such as the 2 witness rule.
If you were on the other side of this argument, still a faithful witness, and you presented these 4 points and someone still argued with you, you just throw up your hands and that’s it, there is nothing more you can say or do but leave it in Jehovah’s hands and say how sad it is that some people like touching children.
This information continues to reinforce in us that we made the right decision and we are happy to be no part of this organization, but time and time again, when we have them absolutely dead to rights with a straight flush nuts hand in a game of hold ’em, a witness will still have that cognitive dissonance rear it’s ugly head and make them believe this is an attack by Satan and his minions.
Reply
 
 
 Excelsior! says:

 July 8, 2015 at 10:03 am
 
Lloyd,
Can we find a way to ask Morris just who the “appropriate authorities” are? I believe he is deliberately trying to infer that these “appropriate authorities” are the police, or perhaps child protection services. However, he believes that the “appropriate authorities” are the local body of elders and the Bethel Branch overseeing that country.
Am I wrong in this interpretation? What do you think?
Thank you for an excellent article. Your long term support of victims and precise articles on this dreadful problem are a testament to your good character.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 M. says:

 July 8, 2015 at 10:03 am
 
10 Anti-Gay Myths Debunkedhttp://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/10-myths
 Facts About Homosexuality
 and Child Molestationhttp://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
Reply
 
 
 sirius says:

 July 8, 2015 at 1:45 pm
 
Just a thought, perhaps starting a thread on the subject of Common Jehovah’s Witnesses Excuses and Habits.Here’s a few to get started…
1.Read the NWT with an open mind
 2.You took the verse out of context
 3.Read the following verse
 4.Read the verse before that one
 5.That KJV is suspicious
 6.You must be progressive to understand the NWT
 7.Must be an error in the translation
 8.What’s your religion?
 9.Jehovah knows your actions before you are born but you have free will
IMHO
dogstar
Reply
 
 
 Finn Sawyer says:

 July 8, 2015 at 9:35 pm
 
Why isn’t the FBI breaking down the door at Bethel? How can Watchtower be allowed a secret database of know pedophiles?
I don’t know why but I expected more damage control. I was hoping to hear they changed their policy about the 2 witness rule for that crime. More than irrelevant references to a 30 year old magazine, lies about an “isolated incident” and a cartoon.
I don’t understand why the secular authorities don’t require the clergy to report child abuse in their congregations. Sure, JWs are shielding pedophiles, but the government allows it and it is the more important problem to attack, IMO.
Very disappointing overall.
Reply
 
 
 Rosie says:

 July 9, 2015 at 4:17 am
 
Lately a politician “sparked controversy when he appeared to link child abuse with homosexual relationships.” Sound familiar?
There was quite an uproar from the public and local media about this.
As a result the politician is currently being questioned by the police and had to step down from his position.
Reply
 
 
 Brent says:

 July 9, 2015 at 1:59 pm
 
Its to bad that all the magazines such as the one that Tony shows are not available. They only go back online too 2000. My folks got rid of there old brown volumes 10 years ago as the GB told them to do. Mostly so that there would be no record of there false prophecies and UN NGO status. Its up to the Governing Body to pick which old light they would want you to know about. As long as the GB can go back and pull old literature out why won’t a member under judicial review do the same?
Tony states that he will not go into the legal back and forth which was and will be the reasons for the lawsuit losses in these child abuse case. The real reason is that they by their system in effect and in truth protected child abusers. They are so misleading, yet the rank and file will agree and look no further into the subject being that to do so would be seen as reading apostate literature.
Reply
 
 Hazel says:

 July 14, 2015 at 3:12 pm
 
Information is provided in the CD disk=W.T. Library2012 English edition. Copies of magazines back to the 1970’s.
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymousish1987 says:

 July 13, 2015 at 8:46 pm
 
The irony of him focusing on homosexuality when from all I’ve read most of the abuse in the Watchtower is heterosexual. Candace Conti was abused by a MAN. So…he can have several seats. This is so disheartening and angers me so much.
Reply
 
 
 MrFair says:

 July 14, 2015 at 3:29 am
 
It seems to me that the Caleb and Sophia video shows a lack of understanding of child sex abuse. Note: I myself am not a professional on the subject but simply would like to make some observations.
It would be helpful if child molesters all looked and sounded like the creepy monsters in the video but the reality is that it could be a grandfather, an elder in the congregation or another trusted friend that isn’t overtly creepy. They are monsters but they usually don’t appear that way, which is how they get close to the children in the first place. I wonder why they didn’t put a nice looking man in a tie, a grandfatherly figure, an aunt, etc. in the cartoon? Maybe too incriminating? Not that children should be made to feel paranoid around everyone but it just seems to me that Watchtower thinks that all molesters are unkempt guys in tank tops, drinking beer and acting creepy in public (like the guy in the public service announcement video). Also, it seems that a child saying “stop! Don’t do that!” will not always chase away a molester. In other instances a child may not even understood what has happened until later in life. Could the video create guilt in victims who didn’t take the prescribed steps? Or who did but were molested despite it? That’s what Watchtower used to do to rape victims who didn’t scream. We all agree it’s very important to protect children but we should look to professionals who have a deeper understanding of how to do it. Sad situation… Just a few thoughts…
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 July 14, 2015 at 4:55 pm
 
@Mr.Fair, the Watchtower still creates guilt in rape and victims of molestations and they still have to appear before a committee for the committee to determine if the victim actually committed fornication or adultery. That isn’t a thing of the past at all.
Reply
 
 MrFair says:

 July 15, 2015 at 6:22 am
 
Good point. The guilt is still there… It seems that they don’t disfellowship based on the screaming or crying out rule anymore? That’s what I was referring to… I’m always open to correction. As a former elder I can say sincerely that judicial committees regarding anything sexual are very damaging no matter how “loving” the brothers might be.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 July 15, 2015 at 7:20 am
 
The way I understand it is that the Society allows for a female being so traumatized by it that they can’t fight back or scream but they have to convince the committee of that.
If a person was molested or raped, they still have to appear before a committee to explain what happened but of course it’s their word against the accused and have to convince the committee that it wasn’t consensual and if not, they face disfellowshipment for fornication.
If the accused was a man in the organization, they get to appear without the female accuser so they can go on and on about how the accuser “led them on” or whatever else they might say and the female has no idea what is being said about her behind her back. I know this is the way it is if it is the husband or father of the female but I don’t know if this holds true if the accused man isn’t the husband or father of the accused.
I personally know of a “sister” whose husband raped her and her husband was only publicly reproved for it. Who knows what he said about her behind her back.
When it comes to the female and she is married or it’s her father that is accused of abusing her, she doesn’t get to defend herself when the elders talk to the man. That is in the Shepard the Flock book.
If the husband beats on his wife or cheats on his wife, he gets to appear before the committee and go on and on about how “terrible” the marriage is etc. and how terrible and neglectful the wife was and how she egged him on (if he beat her) and wouldn’t give him his “due” and who knows what else he gets to say about her to get the sympathy of the elders but if the woman is the accuser and she wants to tell the committee about her abuse, he gets to be there to defend himself and again go on and on about how she “egged” him on or she wasn’t submissive or God knows what else he can say and it’s her word against his.The whole thing is rigged against the female in favor of the male.
It’s ironic that the Bible doesn’t say at Revelation about the 144,000 that tomen didn’t “defile” themselves with men. After all, aren’t some of these 144,000 supposed to be women?
No, the Bible comes right out and says about women that for men to have relations with women, it is “defiling” to them as if to say that women are “unclean”. This is the definition of “defile” in Websters:
“to make unclean or impure: Befoul, Besmirch as a: to corrupt the purity or perfection of: debase >the countryside defiled by billboards> b: to denude of chastity: deflower c: to make physically unclean esp. with something unpleasant or contaminating d: to make ceremonially unclean e: sully, dishonor syn see contaminate”
Just that one scripture alone in Revelation is enough to tell me that in the Bible, women are not respected, no matter how the Watchtower likes to “spin” it and that doesn’t even scratch the surface of how women are treated in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Everyday Explorer says:

 July 14, 2015 at 6:36 am
 
I say to us all, and myself included, to keep heart and keep activist in your own way. The level of exposure re the heinous ‘safeguarding’ policies of the Watchtower is now higher than ever before, gaining more momentum and certainly isn’t going to be stilled. It will become increasingly difficult for good-hearted still-JWs to deny the factual evidence of endemic corruption as the spotlights continue.
I look forward to the Royal Commission Into Child Abuse in Australia beginning on 27 July this year. I look forward to the results of the UK’s Charity Commission investigations into the safeguarding procedures of the Watchtower, which should be relatively soon. I look forward to the Independent Inquiry Into Child Sex Abuse, also UK-based, which has now begun and will last four years.
But I also know how heart-breaking and discouraging it can be when we are faced with family members who we know are good-hearted but who still find themselves defending the Watchtower’s system. But then I remind myself that I can do my activism here (as well as with them, when possible) and that helps so much, even when I don’t post. Thank you again, Lloyd, for creating jwsurvey and thank you to all who post, whether regularly or not, and with such compassion.
Reply
 
 

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The must-read story of a ministerial servant and his wife who woke up in the last few months →
 
Tony Morris scapegoats gay people in bizarre child abuse denial rant
avatar 
Posted on July 6, 2015

Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse
Tony Morris has indulged in a bizarre rant in which he denies any organizational problems with child abuse

Governing Body member Tony Morris has used the July 2015 episode of JW Broadcasting to indulge in an astonishing rant about child abuse, seemingly in response to the onslaught of negative publicity Watchtower has faced in recent years.
In his nine-minute statement on the matter, Morris shows two video presentations and reads from a 1982 Awake! magazine in attempting to make the case that Watchtower has always been “pro-active” in making the protection of children a “top priority.”
At one point, Morris unleashes an astonishing swipe at gay people in an apparent attempt to scapegoat homosexuals as being the main perpetrators of child abuse. “It [an Awake! article] warned about homosexual men who prey on and advocate the right to use boys for sex. Shame on them!” he says. (See time stamp 02:49 in the video below.)


The 1982 “‘Chickens’ and ‘Hawks'” article to which Morris alludes is a shameless piece of propaganda blaming homosexuals in general for child prostitution rings that flourished in the 80s and 90s, and which society itself has condemned (such as in the 1994 award-winning documentary “Chicken Hawk: Men Who Love Boys“). (See Wikipedia article)
Morris’ exploitation of this isolated controversy to make a sweeping generalization about gay people represents only the latest example of what appears to be a pattern of homophobic bigotry above and beyond even the scathing condemnation of gays and lesbians found in Watchtower publications.
Last year Morris was voted one of 2014’s craziest “right-wing nutjobs” by Advocate magazine for his baffling comments at last year’s United States Branch Visit, at which he warned of a conspiracy whereby homosexuals are designing tight clothing merely to lust after men’s bodies. (See time stamp 03:20 in the video below.)


And only recently, at the 2015 regional convention, Morris made a not-so-thinly-veiled declaration of his disapproval at Ireland’s recent referendum legalizing same-sex marriage.


Clearly Morris has an axe to grind against homosexuals for reasons best known to himself, but that he should mobilize his bigotry against gays in defense of the organization’s outrageous record on mishandling child abuse is bewildering to say the least.
Head in the sand
Homophobic scapegoating aside, Morris’ comments are a fascinating example of the organization’s “head in the sand” approach in the face of mounting media scrutiny of Watchtower’s child abuse track record.
This strategy was most recently deployed by Stephen Lett, who used a recorded “morning worship” speech to claim that media attention on the issue was nothing but “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
As much as activists like myself desperately wish there to be no problem in this area, and as much as we yearn for JW children to be protected, various facts are well-documented and glaringly obvious, namely:
◾Watchtower has been found legally responsible for its mishandling of child abuse in courts of law on several occasions in two different countries (see articles on Candace Conti, Jose Lopez and the latest UK high court judgment), in some cases being ordered to pay multimillion dollar damages for their negligence
◾Watchtower gathers and holds information concerning an unknown number of pedophiles, thought to number into the thousands, on a database. Watchtower admitted the existence of the database in a 2002 fax to the BBC, and it lost the Jose Lopez case in part because it refused to divulge the contents of the database in that particular trial. (See this Huffington Post interview video.)
◾Watchtower publications do not urge parents to report allegations of child abuse to authorities in all instances
◾Watchtower elders have been criticized for covering up instances of child abuse from the authorities, as in the cases of Mark Sewell, Jonathan Rose and Gordon Leighton
◾Watchtower instructions to elders in the 2010 Shepherd the Flock of God book and subsequent instructional letters uphold the “two witness rule,” whereby if there is no witness to an allegation of child molestation (or no allegation from a second victim is forthcoming) elders are to “leave matters in Jehovah’s hands,” as the following scan clearly shows
◾Watchtower instructions to elders also maintain the position that the branch office, not the police, should be the first to hear of a report of abuse, and that past child molestation does not necessarily bar someone from serving as an elder in the congregation
child-sex-abuseNone of the above pressing issues are addressed or even alluded to in Morris’ nine-minute statement. Instead he heaps praise on the organization for taking “a decisive stand,” for being “pro-active,” and for making the safeguarding of children a “top priority.”
A reputation to be proud of?
Morris even summons the gall to claim: “We are proud of our reputation in this regard.” Irrespective of what Morris or other Governing Body members may think of their handling of child abuse, if there is one thing beyond dispute in this area, it is that Watchtower’s reputation is not one to be proud of.
One possible strategy Morris might have employed if he had an ounce of humility would be to throw his hands up and admit that, like other organizations, Watchtower was simply caught off guard at a time when the threat posed by child abuse wasn’t fully understood.
Instead, Morris adopts the reverse approach by suggesting the organization was always ahead of the game while secular authorities were floundering and “somewhat naive” as to the magnitude of the problem.
As an example of Watchtower’s foresight he parades the “landmark” 1982 Awake! magazine as highlighting the scourge of child abuse over thirty years ago. But it should go without saying that it is one thing to highlight child abuse as a problem, but another thing entirely to offer effective advice.
For example, the article in that magazine titled “To End Child Abuse” gives the following advice, few aspects of which can be considered especially relevant…
◾“[The bible] calls for close communication between parent and child”
◾“[Psychologists] say parents must be fair and set good examples, but children need regulations and discipline”
◾Sex education promotes masturbation and homosexuality. “Regardless of the pros and cons of sex education, the hard fact is the tremendous increase in child prostitution, sodomy, pornography and incest.”
◾“In God’s due time all who embrace his kingdom under Christ will become able to keep this law of love perfectly… This is the only way, the final way, to end child abuse.”
Watchtower’s 1982 guidance on protecting children from predators thus called for (1) better communication between parents and children, (2) strong parental discipline, (3) less sex education and (4) God’s kingdom. This advice, claims Morris, “straightforwardly addressed” the issue and, combined with subsequent magazine articles can be considered as exonerating Watchtower.
What Morris doesn’t mention is that not one of the magazine articles on child abuse published over the last few decades specifically tell Witness parents to go to the authorities with any and all allegations of abuse, which is surely the first priority in the wake of a crime of such magnitude being perpetrated. One 1993 Awake! article even goes so far as to suggest that, in certain cases, “the legal system may offer little hope of successful prosecution.” (Awake! 1993 10/8 page 9)
Morris attempts to throw up a smokescreen early in his presentation by asserting: “Our policy as an organization is that one professing to be a victim, or his parents, should never be discouraged from reporting the incident to the appropriate authorities.” But this is nothing more than a play on words, and a deliberate attempt to deceive.
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath
It is one thing to tell children to resist predators, it is another thing entirely to deal properly with the aftermath of an attack

True, Watchtower doesn’t expressly dissuade parents from going to the authorities, but it doesn’t persuade them either. Morris thus overtly relies on the ignorance of his audience regarding the nuances of Watchtower’s policies in an attempt to dupe them into thinking reporting is encouraged, even though the organization has yet to issue such instructions to elders despite repeated courtroom defeats.
At best, Watchtower literature over the decades has taught children to be able to identify predators and report such ones to their parents – the most recent example of which is the Caleb and Sophia cartoon presented by Morris in this video.
But teaching children to resist predators is only a fraction of any meaningful, effective child-safeguarding policy. The whole reason why child abuse is so evil is precisely because, for obvious reasons, children will always be vulnerable in the face of any sufficiently determined and opportunistic predatory pedophile, irrespective of how much resistance they put up.
Any child safeguarding policy worth its salt must thus adequately address what to do in the aftermath of an attack so that pedophiles are swiftly apprehended, and this is precisely where Watchtower falls woefully short. Parents are not told to go straight to the authorities by elders in every instance, they are merely informed that this is their “responsibility.”
Throw into the mix the perception that child abuse is a sin that the elders have a remit to investigate, the importance of “waiting on Jehovah,” the stigmatization of taking your “brother” to court, and fears surrounding slander and false accusations, and the likelihood of the police being left out of the loop entirely becomes all too apparent.
Worse than you think
I recently found myself in a phone conversation with a BBC journalist regarding Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse. I expressed to her my frustration at the perception among Witnesses and Watchtower apologists that so-called “apostates” like myself are exaggerating the problem of child abuse.
I told her that, if anything my colleagues and I are understating the magnitude of the problem, because some of the horrendous stories we hear about privately simply cannot be publicized for various reasons.
She replied: “Welcome to the world of journalism.” This, apparently, is the challenge all journalists face in covering important stories where the full grisly horror of what is happening simply cannot be revealed for a myriad of issues including privacy, court orders and so on.
Tony Morris and the Governing Body may desperately want there to be no problem regarding child abuse, but as the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire. When you add up the relentless stream of child abuse reports in the press, including several clear instances where Watchtower has been found guilty and ordered to pay eye-watering sums in compensation, it is clear that, far from being ahead of the game, the organization is ablaze with this problem.
And documented evidence in the organization’s own instructions to elders leaves the Governing Body red-handed in not taking child abuse seriously enough by considering it a sin first, and a crime second.
For all his bluster, boasting and outrageous gay-bashing, the frustration and desperation of Tony Morris and his fellow Governing Body members is becoming painfully obvious.
Putting their hands over their ears and saying “la, la, la” in the face of serious accusations of child safeguarding negligence may work for them personally, but this juvenile charade only adds to their culpability as court after court finds Watchtower negligent. And growing numbers of Jehovah’s Witnesses are seeing straight through it.
 
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Further reading…
◾Rawstory: Jehovah’s Witness leader promotes child safety cartoon with homophobic rant
◾Freethinker: JW chief targets gays in child abuse video
◾Pink News: Jehovah’s Witness Leader, “homosexuals” are child abusers
◾Taze.co: Jehovah’s Witnesses link Homosexuality to Child Abuse in official Broadcast, like it’s 1979
◾JWvictims: The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses Blame Homosexuals for the Pedophilia in Their Religion
◾Stephen Lett slams “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” concerning child abuse record
◾After his branch visit performance, is “Tight Pants Tony” now a liability for the Governing Body?
◾“We will decide who is a predator!” – New Watchtower Instructions to Elders on Child Abuse
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
A full video rebuttal of the JW Broadcasting episode in question is forthcoming, and will be embedded at the foot of this article when complete.


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 jon says:

 July 14, 2015 at 8:36 am
 
Hi Lloyd,
Another well written piece. I would like to know what you, or others on this commenting board, think of the potential impact of the media coverage of the child abuse scandal on the rank and file. Do you think that the ongoing uncovering of child abuse scandals that are gaining momentum right now (e.g. BBC and Savile, Rotherham/Oxford grooming gangs, historical MP abuse network) will dilute the coverage of the JW child abuse scandal? Or do you think this will amplify the awareness of the general public and the rank and file?
All the best,
 Jon
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