AtheistNexus.org recent comments on discussion of members being liberal reposted

Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Posted by Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015 at 10:35pm in Water Cooler
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The most frequent posters on this website are so over-liberal. Not that politics has much to do with the fact that there is no god and religion is non-sense.

In general:
Liberals hate the second amendment of the United States constitution, the right to own firearms. Now I am Jewish according to heritage, and what do you want me to do when the nazis or the ku klux klan (or anybody) break into my home?

Liberals like to create victims. They whine and complain that there are so many poor people. So rather than find a way to put them to work, they would rather steel from productive people and give it to the unproductive poor people so they can continue to not work.

Global warming or climate change is imaginary. The average world temperature has not risen enough to make any difference, and the earth always heals itself. I am against air pollution as much as anybody else and the world is not going to turn into hell any time soon.

As for discussions about the confederate flag, I don't necessarily care whether it is displayed or not, and what about jim crow laws and prejudice against black people in the North? A flag is merely a piece of fabric until you check the owners pulse and give them a lie detector test, you don't know what kind of person they are. Just suddenly replacing one piece of fabric with a different piece of fabric with a different design doesn't mean whoever displays the new fabric with the new design has the attitudes you want them to have, is not prejudiced against some people, and so on.

I'm a more of a libertarian conservative than the typical republican dogma, and a small government conservative.

Everything that can at all possibly be handled by private organizations should be handled by private organizations and not the government.

Abortion is fine with me.

I'm fine with homosexuals getting married in the sense that I don't want to be prejudiced against homosexuals. From my viewpoint as a typical person, marriage shouldn't exist because it was invented in order for religions to make you have to get permission from the religion before you engage in man-woman relationship behavior because the religion wants you to have children and teach your children your religion. And you shouldn't have to get permission from a government before you engage in a man-woman relationship and the government shouldn't be prejudice against homosexuals and there shouldn't be such a thing as benefits you get after you get a piece of paper that says you are married that you can't just get without a piece of paper that says you are married. A lot of atheists still think about man-woman relationships like religious people do.

Liberals hate capitalism. They despise people who do work and make a lot more money than them. The more money rich people pay in taxes, the less money they have left to hire people. Have you ever worked for a poor person? All taxes are theft or extortion.

I'm sure there are more ways liberals want to screw up society but I think this is enough for one discussion.


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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Wednesday

Reply to Michael Pianko, Tuesday, June 30, 2015
In the name of efficiency, economy, and effectiveness, it makes sense to have one truck come by on a regular basis to collect garbage. Having the noise and pollution of more than one collection truck, a week seems unnecessary. Living in a civil society requires participating in activities that reduce traffic even if the company is not one of a person’s choice. One can call it government monopoly on garbage collection if one wants. I call it being frugal, effective and efficient.
If one does not like the official garbage collectors, one can go to city council and register a complaint. If the city council does not listen or does not take action upon one’s complaint, then one can take part in the next election offering a candidate that hears and understands one’s issues.
Yes, I agree, if homeowners  do not keep their property free of garbage and maintain some modicum of care, a complaint can be filed with the city council or police department. I had a problem with my next door neighbor and his garbage, and we had weekly pick-up by the city designated company. My neighbor was a lawyer and thought he could bamboozle me with his legalize. The police took care of the problem for me.
I perceive government as an asset, a friend, a resource for solving problems. They are my friends unless and until they demonstrate that they are not worthy of my trust. When that happens, I have recourse that works at the local level, not so much at the state and national level. However, I am a good community organizer and know how to replace people in office. I have done it more than once.
I am not interested in a god or parent taking care of me. I am interested in getting on with my business and not having to tend to some problems that can effectively and efficiently be handled by my government.
Some people call taxes extortion. I do not! I perceive taxes as the cost of living in a civilized society. If I can afford to live in the city, then I pay taxes required of me for services rendered.
Making a profit is not evil, it is what work is all about! There is a demand for some goods or services, I provide them, I expect to earn a profit. If the gain is not high enough, I stop offering the product.
I laughed when President Reagan called attention to a Mexican woman who built an excellent business by making and selling tacos off a van. In fact, she made a fortune and contributed significantly to Reagan’s campaigns. What Reagan didn’t tell was the horrid wages she paid her illegal immigrants to make that fortune.
There seems to be a difference between liberals and libertarians. Liberals care about people, especially vulnerable people. Libertarians tend to care about making profits off the backs of others. People don’t make fortunes by producing goods and services; they make money off the labor of others and paying non-living wages.
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko on Wednesday
There should be no legal minimum wage. The market would determine the average wage for various kinds of work. I do not make a "living wage". I work as a librarian and and you would think I make enough, but my basic expenses are so high that I actually got a raise in pay just this week, but between now and next year my expenses will still be greater than the amount of money I get. I am paying my car insurance with a credit card and paying the minimum payment on the card each month. And I owe fifty-two thousand dollars to various lenders. See, I am poor, just at a higher level than some people. Other people may earn less than I do but still be in the opposite of debt because they have fewer expenses. So why do liberals think they are so smart that they know what a "living wage" is or how much money somebody "needs"? I need or "need" my company to spend twenty-three dollars an hour on me.
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko on Wednesday
In fact when there is a minimum wage there is no motivation for people to pay more than a few cents above the minimum wage.
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on Wednesday

Iesous Christos! You need to learn how to manage some money! I'm a liberal and if I owed like that I would have to change my name and run away!
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg on Wednesday

it does not appear as though the market is doing you any favors.  perhaps you are genuinely unworthy.  only you know that. 

i'm curious, why do you say that you are poor but "just at a higher level than some people"?  it sounds to me that you are on the verge of economic disaster.  i hope you take advantage of the social programs that will keep you alive once the shit hits the fan for you.  or not, i'm not so sure that i care one way or the other due to your flippant attitude towards others in need. 
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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Wednesday

My response to Michael Pianko Tuesday, June 30, 2015
The market is not now, nor never has been free. If a person needs someone to help produce goods and services, the help should earn a living wage. With the needs of people to support families the minimum wage was created by the USDA to provide a stable income for lower wage earners. With the growing gap between rich and poor, the system performs in an out-of-balance manner. A balance needs to be maintained.
You pay excruciatingly high car insurance. It is none of my business, but why? Don't answer me, but ask yourself, why? You pay it by credit card and pay the minimum payment each month! Why? Don’t you realize how much you pay in interest on that money?
I made it a rule 41 years ago to never pay interest for credit card debt. I pay it off every month and always have. The funny part of this story is 41 years ago a woman could not get a credit card in her name without her husband’s, father’s, son’s or male friend’s name.

“I owe fifty-two thousand dollars to various lenders.”
What? I have never owed more than $10,000 in my life and that was when I bought my home. It was a condemned building when I bought it and I created a beautiful home and garden out of that wreck. I surely do feel good about myself. I worked minimum wage jobs, went to school evenings and weekends and earned a B.A. and Master’s degrees and then was able to earn a modest living.
The basic rule is: never spend more than you earn!
Yes, you are poor, you will always be poor at this rate. Did you have a major injury or illness? Or did you have to pay for your mother’s health care because she didn’t have health insurance when she got older? Or did you get your college degree using loans instead of grants or scholarships? There is a reason you have such a high debt. Why? It is none of my business so don’t answer me. Ask yourself why?
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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo yesterday

Ah! that is where my huge garden came in. We grew enough vegetables to last all year. The kids helped me can, dry and freeze foods.
I went to our local grocery Mom and Pop store and told them my situation, what I was doing to feed the kids and what I needed. I asked them if they would help me develop some strategy to get protein and dairy for the kids. They offered to allow me to scavenge in their back room. I could get out of date eggs, milk, cheese and meat for $1.00 a bushel sized box per week. I did that for a year. I have shopped there for the 40 years since, paying regular price through the cash register. Their generosity served us both well.
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko 2 hours ago
You know who loves efficiency? Totalitarian regimes. They may be efficient at various tasks including killing and torturing people.
 Bureaucracies are not efficient.
 People would not mind if a few different garbage trucks roll down your street. Some people may just want the cheapest service. Other people may want to pay more for a service where the garbage people will pick up every last piece of garbage if A garbage bag. breaks open.
 Not every service is easy to have a choice about but whenever possible people should have a choice of who provides varoius services, a choice of where to buy their groceries and supplies, a choice of which bowling place or movie theater to visit, a choice of which health insurance to get or whether you even want the insurance. Suppose I am healthy and I want only minimal coverage? And if you say there is a good chance I will end up in the hospital, then that is a rather lousy attitude, do you want me to get amyotrophic lateral sclerosis? (My grandfather got ALS and dropped dead when he was 36).
 Yes it would be hard to have more than one police of fire department, but suppose the fire department lets your house burn down if it catches fire and you didn't sign up for and pay for coverage? There are ways to raise money for the important things without just extorting money from people. Suppose they have to save somebody's life or there's no time to figure out whether you signed up for services? So, let then act first and give you the bill later if you didn't already pay.
 If you make the "wrong choice" it is your own fault and you do not need a big, over demanding, powerful federal government hanging over your head like a parent, constantly telling you what to do.
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg 2 hours ago

go live in the woods then.  grab your go-bag (you know you have one!) and take off into the boonies.  live off the land and avoid Uncle Sam.  if you survive more than a year and want to rejoin civilized society we'll probably accept you - just be sure to pay your back taxes!
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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck yesterday


Having people's garbage picked up does not require a government monopoly on garbage collection.
Michael, your lack of experience in public administration has you doing some very low-quality thinking.
I would explain but your posts have shown that you have closed your mind to everything that others might say.
If you want my explanation, demonstrate that you can open your mind. Choose several of the remedies you are demanding and for each one post at least one alternative remedy. For each one, do some comparing and contrasting.

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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Tuesday

Tom, I very much appreciate your words of caution to remember the First Amendment in relation to Michael. I also recognize to use valid and reliable rebuttals in a discussion. I know this is not a place for debate, however when a statement occurs, I and others have a right and a responsibility to respond with appropriate words and attitudes.
Your caution provides an important element that we can learn and practice. Thanks.
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Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Posted by Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015 at 10:35pm in Water Cooler
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The most frequent posters on this website are so over-liberal. Not that politics has much to do with the fact that there is no god and religion is non-sense.

In general:
Liberals hate the second amendment of the United States constitution, the right to own firearms. Now I am Jewish according to heritage, and what do you want me to do when the nazis or the ku klux klan (or anybody) break into my home?

Liberals like to create victims. They whine and complain that there are so many poor people. So rather than find a way to put them to work, they would rather steel from productive people and give it to the unproductive poor people so they can continue to not work.

Global warming or climate change is imaginary. The average world temperature has not risen enough to make any difference, and the earth always heals itself. I am against air pollution as much as anybody else and the world is not going to turn into hell any time soon.

As for discussions about the confederate flag, I don't necessarily care whether it is displayed or not, and what about jim crow laws and prejudice against black people in the North? A flag is merely a piece of fabric until you check the owners pulse and give them a lie detector test, you don't know what kind of person they are. Just suddenly replacing one piece of fabric with a different piece of fabric with a different design doesn't mean whoever displays the new fabric with the new design has the attitudes you want them to have, is not prejudiced against some people, and so on.

I'm a more of a libertarian conservative than the typical republican dogma, and a small government conservative.

Everything that can at all possibly be handled by private organizations should be handled by private organizations and not the government.

Abortion is fine with me.

I'm fine with homosexuals getting married in the sense that I don't want to be prejudiced against homosexuals. From my viewpoint as a typical person, marriage shouldn't exist because it was invented in order for religions to make you have to get permission from the religion before you engage in man-woman relationship behavior because the religion wants you to have children and teach your children your religion. And you shouldn't have to get permission from a government before you engage in a man-woman relationship and the government shouldn't be prejudice against homosexuals and there shouldn't be such a thing as benefits you get after you get a piece of paper that says you are married that you can't just get without a piece of paper that says you are married. A lot of atheists still think about man-woman relationships like religious people do.

Liberals hate capitalism. They despise people who do work and make a lot more money than them. The more money rich people pay in taxes, the less money they have left to hire people. Have you ever worked for a poor person? All taxes are theft or extortion.

I'm sure there are more ways liberals want to screw up society but I think this is enough for one discussion.


Tags: liberalism



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 Permalink Reply by Jas Brimstone on Sunday

Why did you bother to start/ask this when it is abundantly clear from your OP that you have no intention of actually listening to/learning from any of the answers or rebuttals to your preconceived notions anyway?
As for the very core question I would answer simply, "because skepticism and empiricism, when rationally and logically followed through, generally lead to more 'liberal' conclusions."
But it's clear from your OP that you won't believe that no matter how much evidence I, or anyone else, put forth to support it, so this is likely the last you'll hear from me.  I try not to make a habit of talking to walls.
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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

Michael, do you allow progressives into your world?
People use dogma (such as All taxes are theft or extortion) to protect themselves from reality.

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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Sunday

Tom, you write correctly, "All taxes are theft or extortion" and I am guilty of using the "all" word ... and for effect. I agree with you about dogma.
 
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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

Whoops, I didn't make clear that All taxes are theft or extortion is Michael's favorite dogma. He has stated it in many of his posts.
My favorite ideas about dogma include:
◾Someone else's My karma ran over his dogma, and
◾My Changing dogmas is easier than giving up the need for dogma.

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 Permalink Reply by Gerald Payne on Sunday

Just what I'd expect to here from a ''libertarian conservative''.
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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

Gerald, you understand America's political labels better then I understand those in the UK.

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 Permalink Reply by Pat on Sunday

None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see. Matthew Henry.


Have a nice life in your cocoon which is impervious to ideas or evidence.
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 Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on Sunday

Michael, I don't hate the 2nd Amendment, but I think the absolutism which currently seems to surround it has virtually nothing to do with reality.  I wrote the following some time back, but I continue to stand behind it as a truism:
When the Second Amendment was penned, it took a skilled rifleman roughly 90 seconds to fire his weapon, reload it, and fire again. If he had two such weapons, his fire rate might be slightly faster, but he ultimately still ran into that same issue of reloading. Certainly that weapon was deadly, but its lethality as regards more than one target was highly limited. A modern-day submachine gun, by comparison, can accomplish that same process in roughly 60 milliseconds (for a fire rate of 1,000 rounds per minute), and even a semi-automatic weapon achieves fire rates which so outstrip that of the Minutemen of the American Revolution that a comparison would be ridiculous. The lethality is increased by orders of magnitude, yet the NRA continues to treat the right to bear arms as unmodifiable under any circumstances.
As to capitalism, I have no problem with it so long as it recognizes the potential for money to supplant the voting power of the individual, as the Citizens United and McCutcheon decisions have made possible. Certainly, the profit motive is a powerful one and one which has helped to make the US stand apart among nations, but when the rich become so empowered that they can overrun the rights and desires of others by the mere presence of their wealth, I have a serious problem.
 I'm not about creating victims; I'm about recognizing wrongs done and applying correction. I'm about the rights of the people - ALL the people. I'm a liberal and I'm an atheist, and I don't blink when I say either.
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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Sunday

Loren, I forgot to include the potential for money to influence elections. Thanks for reminding me. I like, again, the 2nd Amendment statement!.
I especially like "I'm about recognizing wrongs done and applying correction. "
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on Sunday

I'm a liberal of the Libertarian kind. My life's journey has brought me here. Once upon a time I was just the oposite of what I am today. Acting upon the stage of life I have played all the roles. Never once have I thought we should take from the rich and give to the poor. I have, however, thought that the poor should be given a chance to become rich. In this life you must learn to make do with what you have. I do not hate capitalism nor despise other systems.
I have been married and also have just lived with my other half without matrimony. You need lawyers for the one but not always for the other. Anyone can see that my choices here had nothing to do with a god.
Abortion is a choice. Jesus said nothing about it and it was also existent in his time. Why the nonsense about it now? Theists are crazy!
Global warming is not imaginary. There is evidence of it in our ancient past also and it came in cycles. That doesn't mean we should just ignore it today. It can cause some serious problems for us.
Confederate flags, Nazi flags, etc. should all go as well as the hatred that surrounds them. If this goes along well the next step might be religious symbols. Let's hope so. It's hard to imagine a person flying the Confederate flag because of "his deep Southern roots." Somebody is lying here.
Do I want to "create a victim?" That depends. Anybody that has had something bad done to them, and especially done to them deliberately, is a victim. None of us should become victims.
Oh, I forgot the 2nd amendment and the right to own firearms. I love guns! In my earlier life I was a sharpshooter with a six gun. I don't shoot much any longer and I feel there is too much gun violence. We need to do something about that issue. Today fruitcakes are getting guns and even going into churches to kill people.
Stick around, Michael, and live a little longer. You might find that some of your views will change.

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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

Michael Penn, fifty cents says Michael Pianko's views won't change during what remains of 2015.

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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Sunday

Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Response to Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015. Atheist Nexus, Water Cooler
Religion is political. It defines who is in and who is out and who is up and who is down. If religious have wealth it is because their god gave them entitlements. What happens to those who were not born with the correct birthright?
Yes, liberals tend to not like firearms especially those terribly powerful guns and bullets that can pierce bullet-proof material, or those machine guns with rapid repeat fire capabilities, or guns that will destroy a deer with one shot, leaving no usable meat for consumption. There are those who do not seem to have the strength of character to be able to stand up to an opponent. With a firearm, they are Rambo! There are so many pretenses as to why a person needs heavy duty firearms. Why? You tell me. I don’t understand the mentality. I also object to firearms that are not locked away out of reach of children, or are available to depressed people who choose death or murder to solve their feelings.
Liberals don’t create victims we report about them. Do you always blame the messenger instead of looking at the underlying causes of victimhood? You may call it whining and complaining. You could be witnessing caring and compassion. You so glibly say that people steal from productive people. What do you have to say about the slave owner who made fortunes from the labor of others they enslaved. Or what about the wealthy person who can’t do all the work for him or herself and hires others to do the work? People who produce the goods and services that are sold for a profit. Too often workers do not share in the profit they made possible. Do you agree with that system? Have you noticed how so many Mom-and-Pop stores closed shop because they couldn’t compete with bigger corporations? Big organizations can buy goods from those people who work for extremely low wages and don’t share in the profits. Often workers do not have protection from fire, or exploitation, or enslavement.
There are very productive people who do work that others don’t want to do. The caregivers who care for children and elderly when families are not willing to wipe bottoms and spoon feed those who cannot feed themselves. Does that make any sense to you? If one needs help, he or she should be obligated to pay living wages to those who are willing and able to do those chores.
So, you think global warming is imaginary? Have you not read the scientific literature that reveals an obvious change taking place. Why is the weather changing? Oh! You don’t think it is! Yes, the Earth always heals itself, but that does not mean there will be no extinctions. Do you think Homo sapiens could have survived the other Big Five mass extinction events? Will humans survive the next one?
Words matter, symbols matter, flags matter. I have heard so many cockamamie stories about the War Flag of Virginia symbolizing strength and power. Yes, strength and power do enslave human beings, legally, and make fortunes off their labor. Have you ever considered how much money it would have cost to hire all those slaves. Slaves grew the cotton and corn and tobacco and whatever other crops slave-owners needed and slave-owners made profits. Could the slave owners have done the work themselves? There were so many things wrong with slavery, I find it hard for any educated person to not be revolted by the practices. Of course, there were injustices in the North. The whole corruption of exploitation and manipulation occurred in the USA and it continues. We claim to be a nation built on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Ha! That is funny! The original stated, “life, liberty and the pursuit of property”.
Why did Jefferson change "property" to the "pursuit of happiness”?
A flag is a piece of cloth, you say! A word is just an assemblage of letters, some say. Both cloth and letters mean something. They represent ideas, beliefs, and values. Some are healthy, some are deadly. I like to think in my country cloth and letters stand for equality and justice.
You claim to be a libertarian conservative. Does that mean you make decisions based on what is profitable for you without paying attention to the consequences of your decisions have on others and on the Earth?
There are some things that private enterprise does not handle well. Getting water and electricity to everyone are just two thing. Others, of course, are police and fire protection and garbage collection. I do not believe hunger and poverty can or should be managed by private enterprise. Some people are poor for reasons beyond their control. Diseases, injuries, disabilities, youth, old age describe a few of the classes that need help. It should not be the job of churches or charity to provide basic needs for these people. These produce social costs that a society must support. I am of the opinion that private institutions should not pay health care costs. I support a single payer health plans and my fear is we move farther away from that process.
Abortion is none of your business.
Homosexuals finally begin to get legal protection and I hope the hate crimes committed against them are prosecuted and harsh remedies result. I agree that religion is the foundation upon which marriage exists. That situation needs change and very soon. Get the religious out of the institution of marriage.
I am a capitalist, but not a laissez-faire capitalist. It is too easy to exploit and manipulate people. When an individual works full time to produce goods and services to be sold for profits that go to the owner of capital, and wages are too low or when profits are not shared with those who produce, the workers cannot afford to buy things. If fair wages existed, there would be more money available to more consumers and capitalism would thrive far better than under the present conditions.
I despise people who hire others to do the work they are not able or willing to do and don’t share the profits.
The more money rich people take, the more there is need for taxes to help pay people who work and do not receive a living wage. If money were spread according to the work performed, there would be more money spent and the demand for goods and services would go up.
Have you ever worked for a rich person? All wage-labor is theft or extortion.
There are other ways libertarians want to screw up society, but I think this is enough for one discussion.
 
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