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AtheistNexus.org dicussion on atheists "supporting" homosexuality
DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by David Raphael on December 16, 2011 at 2:41am
"Gay marriage 'improves health'"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16203621
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 16, 2011 at 3:27am
david - well that seals it then - we simply must have it! :)
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Permalink Reply by AgeOfAtheists14 on December 23, 2011 at 6:28am
let em' marry; yet the sight of a lesbian and or gay man with a crucifix around the neck... is... odd...
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Permalink Reply by AgeOfAtheists14 on December 25, 2011 at 12:42am
yeah wtf happened to private parts of lives.. sheesh... like they'd faint at a nude beach or some fantasy fest errr... sigh... hips man; I just can't get enough of hips... anyhew... ; )
some of my most missed professional coworkers were homosexual... Miami.
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Permalink Reply by AgeOfAtheists14 on December 25, 2011 at 12:40am
I support safe (condom?) sex hetero or homo
what do you want? need? feel at ease with? ; )
cya!
oh btw I practice )))))((((((( safe hetero sxy stuff
cyax2! see that don't matter either.. it's just one ceo losing out to a different kind of sexual preference aka product commodity wtf jus happened... oh yeah. those 'voters'! lol sigh.... Russia what! stoked.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
View Discussions
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 8, 2011 at 5:06am
a toast to you sir!!
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 8, 2011 at 6:16am
David... yes that's about the short and the long of it.......
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 9, 2011 at 4:13pm
ECXELLENT POST...
unfortunately the "ego" will win in most cases
truth is offense for the most part, and most people would rather be wrong and strong than be right and unpopular
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 9, 2011 at 5:58pm
nafir - I've found that if I have strong personal support - I can be true to what I really believe - whether I'm right or wrong about it, is another matter.... :)
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 8, 2011 at 4:07am
agreed
a rational comment in a frenzy of emotional posts
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on December 7, 2011 at 7:16pm
My understanding is that Hillary Clinton is not an atheist, but she is speaking how many humanists think.
Mr. Kulkarni has his own agenda. Now that he's been called on his illogical assertions, he claims to be backing out of the discussion - but hasn't closed it.
washington post
It is violation of human rights when people are beaten or killed because of their sexual orientation, or because they do not conform to cultural norms about how men and women should look or behave.
It is a violation of human rights when governments declare it illegal to be gay, or allow those who harm gay people to go unpunished.
It is a violation of human rights when lesbian or transgendered women are subjected to so-called corrective rape, or forcibly subjected to hormone treatments, or when people are murdered after public calls for violence toward gays, or when they are forced to flee their nations and seek asylum in other lands to save their lives.
And it is a violation of human rights when life-saving care is withheld from people because they are gay, or equal access to justice is denied to people because they are gay, or public spaces are out of bounds to people because they are gay.
No matter what we look like, where we come from, or who we are, we are all equally entitled to our human rights and dignity.
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 7, 2011 at 8:00pm
Let's add:
It is a violation of human rights to mutilate a child's genitals regardless of the social, cultural, or religious motivation.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 8, 2011 at 4:14am
Good point, Strangely enough for most people in the west it has or at least had become the norm in hospitals to the point where it wasn't even second guessed. Not sure of the current status....Although I am sure glad it isn't done at 12 years old or with a rock........
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Permalink Reply by Strangebrew on December 9, 2011 at 6:51am
Although I am sure glad it isn't done at 12 years old or with a rock
Until some particularly dense and 'holier then thou' pompous jackass decides that is the manner of gods will.
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Permalink Reply by David Raphael on December 9, 2011 at 7:26am
Although I am sure glad it isn't done at 12 years old or with a rock........
Not a rock..but how about a mouth?
Take, for example, the case of the NYC Rabbi who, after circumcising boys would suck the blood from the penis. In doing so he gave the kids herpes, which was ultimately fatal....
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/nyregion/26circumcise.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6898403/ns/health-childrens_health/t/ra...
It made me really angry this story.
Backward, repulsive, uncivilised imbeciles.
This is what religion does. It promotes raw ignorance.
As far as I aware this rabbi has never been prosecuted. Maybe someone could confirm this.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 9, 2011 at 11:41am
oooohhhh my jebussss.....what world do we live in......
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 9, 2011 at 11:40am
well that is a brisk isn't it......
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
View Discussions
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 8, 2011 at 12:04am
I agree - so education in steps and stages needs to do it in a way that isn't sugarcoated, dishonest or giving out free passes -
So what about asking questions to understand clearly why they think the way they do - then challenge each point - and get them to question their motivations step by step - that isn't sugar coating - it's just aiming to educate and get to the bottom of it all.... with a bit of personal questioning too perhaps ..... I realise that being gay would mean that you might be defensive of your position - as it is a non mainstream place - and comes under attack from mainstream society - so I find that positions such as these - being gay, vegan, vegetarian, whatever minority group you like - it's tough to then take a educational leadership type role, that doesn't get offended or effected by ignorance or mainstream arrogance of position..... or fear of the unknown leading to attack etc.... I don't know - I'm not perfect - but I'm finding that what I like about discussions on here is that I can pretty much be myself - and make lots of mistakes and someone usually explains it too me if I ask enough..... even when I totally put my foot in it.....
Our political correctness is quite well known in our educated western society - but I think it needs to be ok to make political correct faux pas in order to alert others to your need for education.... if you know what I mean :)
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 8, 2011 at 4:05am
I did watch a doco on that but there was as many blokes having sex with female prostitutes and bringing aids home.....So I think that may be tainting the Gay indian community a little harshly. That said I am pretty clueless on all this especially when it comes to foreign countries.....I suppose my comments are mainly based on a desire of how the world ought to be, rather than how it is...I don't know...further input required for me.....lol.....that may not have been the best choice of words....oh well...
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 8, 2011 at 6:12am
I didn't see a documentary - I was told the story by a man on a train in India..... and you know what stories are...... :)
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 9, 2011 at 4:11pm
hiv has never been isolated in any laboratory on planet earth...
i started a thread about it so as to not railroad other threads..
check " house of numbers"
apparently "the nerd" was being a geek, and tried to discredit the thread without ever doing research.
generally people who critique things before investigating them have a PERSONAL agenda.
anyhow
peace alice, i hope trust all is well, and i bid you peace and positive vibrations
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 9, 2011 at 4:23pm
hiv has never been isolated in any laboratory on planet earth...
Really? Then the 2008 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine was mistakenly awarded to Luc Montagnier, Françoise Barré-Sinoussi, and Harald zur Hausen?
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 9, 2011 at 5:59pm
charles - cool - I think you've got him on that one! :)
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 9, 2011 at 5:56pm
nafir - I'm lost about what this is in relation too - I have a vague memory of something - I'm finding it a challenge to keep up with 100 email's per day and still keep up with my personal responsibilities outside of internet socialising... :)
peace and positive vibrations sounds good - I'll go with that :)
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 7, 2011 at 4:56pm
Madhukar - I would really like it if you would share some of the attitudes and stories regarding homosexuality in your country. It would assist us all to be more enlightened about answering your original question - and may also give you more understanding about the differences between homosexuality in the west as compared with India. I will aim also to explain better homosexuality from a western perspective - as it is viewed very differently here and has had different history culturally.
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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on December 7, 2011 at 6:04pm
Alice, you are very kind. I have studied your earlier inputs. I have left this discussion for good. I have answers, I have questions, but the level of comments is so declined that asking and answering in a spirit of discussion is not possible. Be kind and allow me to conlude the discussion.
MADHUKAR KULKARNI.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 7, 2011 at 6:21pm
Madhukar - I have found that discussion on AN often can become tense and many emotions fly. It is hard at first to take and pulling back is a normal reaction to such offences. The culture here though does seem to be that people will express their minds, hearts and thoughts fully - they will not hold back - and I really must support this culture - because even though it is hard at first, and the gentle part of us does suffer - it does also lead to much new light on matters. I have much more integrity for pushing through with discussions on here.
But if you need to take a break and have a breather - I am more than willing to support you in this. But please, know that there are many people on here who are keen and willing to also support you in gaining greater understanding of these issues from other persepctives, as well as wanting to understand your perspective and why you think and feel the way that you do.
This spirit to me is the only way that we can come together as a community - it is tough and rigorous because we do have such different perspectives - and in all of us we hold superstitions and untruths that will cause us pain when they burn and die inside of each of us.
Best of luck.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 8, 2011 at 4:10am
There are not enough of us globally to abandon our conversations....You can be sure that as harsh as we may be in debate..Most of us would I'm sure be equally as hospitable in person or to one of our comrades in need....So suck it up get back on the horse and show us your side of the coin///
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Permalink Reply by David Raphael on December 8, 2011 at 4:17am
I agree.
Discussion and debate should be the life-blood of an atheist. After all, what are atheists if not people who are determined to find the truth, irrespective of how hard it may push us, or how harshly our ideas may be challenged?
Atheists, like scientists, should rejoice in having their ideas being proven wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence against them, because only then do we know that we are progressing and getting ever nearer to the truth.
Dawkins: 'I'd rather be unhappy and know the truth than be happy and live a lie'.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
View Discussions
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 8, 2011 at 7:25am
lol
so wait a sec...
your logic implies that homosexuality is nurtured..and not natural...
;)
be careful..the ice is thin and very slippery.
again..when you have to go to extraneous methods have offspring , due to a CHOICE you have made, it is very telling about that choice...
its like crying over spilled milk...
if you CHOOSE to make your bed, then OTHERS have to pick up YOUR SLACK and create sperm bank and test tubes and surrogates etc..
i am not saying that it is wrong...
but if i say " i hate niggers" and expect africans to support me, wouldnt that be assi9?
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 8, 2011 at 7:47am
as well if there are more bisexual people than there are homosexual people, then doesnt that obviously imply that the sexual orientation is a CHOICE?
ill digress
when was the first test tube baby successfully grown?
when was the first sperm bank established?
ok..scroll back 200 yrs
would you and i exist today if the planet turned gay over night, 200 yrs before the first sperm bank/in vitro came into existence?
no?
oh..
carry on with the fallacious tangential statements.
additionally
straights being welcomed among you?
lol
so the 1000 will be welcomed by the 1...oh how generous of you...
is it just me or is that a very delusional disposition..
a minority saying "its ok for you to be_______" to the majority...
this isnt the 1920's and the deep south, where that logic can actually stand firm.
additionally...
no one has cared to address the core issue
WHY DO HOMOSEXUALS NEED SUPPORT?
do people who eat oranges need support?
sheesh..
talk about a bunch of whiny children.
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 8, 2011 at 8:09am
The discussion is about supporting equal rights for homosexuals, meaning getting rid of discriminatory laws.
Sexual orientation is not a choice, why do you believe it is?
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 8, 2011 at 8:18am
Maybe nafir is just mostly ignorant.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 8, 2011 at 5:27pm
nafir - no - being bi-sexual doesn't imply that sexuality is a choice - it just means that you only got half the biology :) like someone said before - it's a spectrum thing.... :)
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 8, 2011 at 5:33pm
nafir - why do homosexuals need support -
well - to my mind any minority or marginalised group needs support to gain equal well being - if a group is abused based on their circumstances of sexuality or anything else - then they need the rest of society to be aware of the differences in needs - such as to be able to marry the same sex, and be seen by society as partners when it comes to taxation and other laws of the land.
If we had a law that it was taboo to eat oranges - then people who needed to eat oranges because they had no other source of vitamin C, would need special consideration - because that law would infringe on their personal sense of well being - because they had a specific need for oranges.... to take a silly metaphor.... :)
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 8, 2011 at 5:25pm
nafir nun - you seem to be working with false premises - or are misinformed -
I'm not sure who has suggested that being gay is about nurture, or that it is a choice....
from my understanding being gay is about biology - you are born with it.... also, sperm donation, can be as simple as two gay people having sex to create a child - it doesn't need to include all the medical stuff.... or using a baster...
also probably most of the children I know that have been raised by gay parents, even when both parents were gay - are straight - so if nurture has anything to do with it - it's not working very well - in my personal experience.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 8, 2011 at 4:01am
I see a lot of projection in what you have written. And abuse of the concept of "logic". You have merely replaced "God is on my side" with "logic is on my side" when in either case it is your own opinion.
I agree, Logic is often quoted like a call to authority....but it is a skyhook of an authority because logic can in instances be relative.....or you could just claim logic when all you have is bullish*t.....either way interesting point
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on December 6, 2011 at 11:18pm
OK, if you are quitting your own discussion, then you need to close it to new comments. Your responsibility here is to monitor any discussion that you start. If you are not going to monitor it, then please close it.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 7, 2011 at 4:53pm
OK everyone - I really think to understand this all better we need to look at the differences between India and America/the west regarding homosexuality.
A story from the west:
A boy grows up, he falls in love, he plans to marry the love of his life, but he can't, because it's another man.
A story I heard when I was in India:
A guy has an arranged marriage, he has some kids, he has a job as a truck driver. He's on the road for long periods. He has homosexual sex with other truck drivers. He contracts HIV. He passes on HIV to other truck drivers that he has sex with. He then goes home and gives HIV to his wife.
Two very different perspectives on homosexuality here.....
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 7, 2011 at 6:28pm
the nerd - any process needs to be done in stages - it is very difficult for someone at the start of a process to be launched fully into the end product and not feel shocked, uncomfortable and resistance / denial in fact. I think we need to meet people where they are at, if we want to provide them with education and understanding. Otherwise we are just spouting propaganda that has no meaning - and simply causes rifts, misunderstanding and divides. Things seem fixed, but they are not - everything if done slowly and step by step can be changed - but it needs sensitivity to current placement on all sides. I think it an important task to assist my fellow atheists to 'see the light' when it comes to social justice etc - as well as allowing myself to be changed by more enlightened others around me.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 7, 2011 at 8:01pm
I see what you are saying Alice, I have friends from India too, and when I came out to one of my friends she had never (knowingly) met a non-straight person. She accepted me even though she had some reservations. I don't need everyone to feel 100% thrilled about it because it is only one aspect of me and people still care for people even if they don't agree with everything or think they should do something differently.
I do understand that other cultures are at a different point but also don't want to be dishonest, sugarcoat, or give someone a free pass.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Dee Neely on December 16, 2011 at 7:22am
You seem have the mistaken assumption that all gay people are adults. Making sure that different kinds of sexuality are protected isn't just an adult issue. There are plenty of kids who struggle against the oppression, too. It really isn't about supporting/not supporting homosexuals. It is about defending our human rights.
We have a world where people are wantonly slaughtered just for fact of who they like to have sex with. I support their right to not be killed.
We have a world where people are discriminated against because of the sexuality. I support their right to not oppressed.
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Permalink Reply by Strangebrew on December 5, 2011 at 10:02am
I am sorry but your question is tasting of naive bigotry.
Atheist tend to support fairness based on rationality.
It is not rational to persecute someone because of whom they fall in love with or to whom the feel attracted to.
Homosexuality is not the issue it is respect for a fellow human being.
It is none of your business. or indeed anyone's, on who does what with whom...unless you are a sick sexually inadequate voyeuristic type.
It is most telling that those that rant and rave and condemn the loudest are sooner or later caught doing that which they apparently despise.
More a question of mental insecurity and pretending you are something you are not then being a righteous jackass.
Homosexuality is the target for all small minded and ignorant folks...religion, every branded cult, typifies the intolerance and hatred these folk suffer.
I expect small minds enjoy bullying and oppression...gives them something to feel proud about hating.
Even better when they can pretend their fictitious sky fairy tells them to do it...absolutely disgusting behaviour by the 'self bragging morally superior but mentally stunted clowns of 'faith' ' and so much more repugnant then genuine love between two people.
The attitude held by some religions sets them apart as anything but humane or indeed civilised.
But that aside that is not why atheism tends to support gay rights...we do not have to because they are simply RIGHT.....end of story...pity the haters the discriminators and agressors have so little understanding of reality and life in a wonderful world...they miss so much beauty by their dogmatic blind and bigoted intolerance.
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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on December 6, 2011 at 5:41pm
When personal remarks are made in a discussion, it means that the other party does not have much to say so it is time to quit. I am therefore quitting this discussion. I remain firm in my opinion that if homosexuality can be cured medically, it must be done.No body has given any reason to show why this is can not be done.
When social issues are discussed, some controversial issue is always likely to come up. It is impersonal and so no personal offence should be taken. OTHERWISE, TAKING OR GIVING A PERSONAL OFFEENCE BECOMES A SURESHOT WAY TO STOP A DISCUSSSUIN.
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Permalink Reply by NH Baritone on December 6, 2011 at 6:03pm
Your "impersonal" topic was itself a personal attack on every gay person on the planet.
This very comment implies that up to 10% of the population must undergo change therapy in order be acceptable to you, personally: Change therapy for with there is no evidence of curative value, and because gay people as they are have been shown to live quite productive lives that contribute to society, an act that itself would prove detrimental to society.
Would you have all Left Handed persons undergo "change therapy"? All people who have synesthesia? All people who are asexual? The only thing your opinions suggest is that you have sexual anxieties that can only be quelled by harming others.
I suggest you examine the "Social Order" in Massachusetts, a US state where Gay Marriage has been legal since 2004: The state has among the lowest divorce rates in the US. Their health insurance coverage is near universal. The state has the second lowest teenage pregnancy rate in the country. These are the kinds of goals many more "conservative" states can only dream of.
You have every right to wimp out of a conversation. But if you have an opinion that requires the oppression of a huge portion of the population, you had better have incontrovertible facts to back it up. It appears that instead you have nothing but your own prejudice.
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 6, 2011 at 6:18pm
I remain firm in my opinion that if homosexuality can be cured medically, it must be done.No body has given any reason to show why this is can not be done.
Even if this could be done (which I seriously doubt), I take exception to the word 'cured' as if this were a disease.
And just why 'must it be done? Shall we seek to cure you of whatever your sexual predilections are?
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 6, 2011 at 8:04pm
I remain firm in my opinion that if homosexuality can be cured medically, it must be done.No body has given any reason to show why this is can not be done.
Right, everyone knows that if you can't disprove something that means it's true.
And have you given a reason why it must be cured?
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 7, 2011 at 2:52am
madhukar - I think you may be misunderstanding the culture in the west regarding homosexuality.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 7, 2011 at 8:47am
I think many reasons have been put forth to support sexual equality in this thread.
If you dislike gays so much why is it that you wish to turn them straight and have them contribute much more directly to the gene pool?
I also ask another question do you eat animal products, Are you environmentally aware, Are you in favour of education access to all what ever the sex. As these are far more important issues to me.
I don't actually have any openly gay friends, but if someone shared my values or even just challenged my mind I would befriend them irrespective of the particular sexual preferences they held, I actually feel a little bland because I don't know enough people of different lifestyles and preferences of all sorts. Why are you so intimidated by diversity of sexuality, I suggest you replace your disscust with curiosity and understanding.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 7, 2011 at 9:24am
hey ..just sayin for the record.
"cure" is a word that has many associations with it.
what sexual orientation has to do with the "atheist nexus" is beyond me
the amount of foolishness i have read on these forum boards regarding homoseuality and sexuality in general is quite alarming.
I never would have thought that in a place where rational thought and EVIDENCE was supposed to be paramount, that there would be soo much ignorance, speculation, and unfounded drivle.
i made a statement saying that if the planet turned homosexual then there would be no more people on the planet...
this statement while TRUE AND FACTUAL, garnered some attention from people who were trying to allege that i was against gay people lol..
its like saying that albinos have recessive genetics.. am i against albinos?
lol
why is it so important to PROVE to others WHY you do whatever you do?
that is the HEIGHT of insecurity in my opinion and experience.
and dont worry bout "personal attacks"
you are on the internet, cyber bullying is a phenomenon that i do not acknowledge..
if words on a screen directed at a pseudonym can stop a discussion...chances are the discussion had limited merit.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 7, 2011 at 9:36am
"why is it so important to PROVE to others WHY you do whatever you do?
that is the HEIGHT of insecurity in my opinion and experience."
I can not speak for everyone in the thread you reply to but I know I am a married straight and so to is Alice..So we are not biased based on personal motive just ethical defence of others and correction of bigotry.....( not to verbal you alice but I think you would agree )
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 7, 2011 at 10:31am
The statement that "if everyone was gay people would go extinct" is NOT true or factual. Being homosexual does not mean the person doesn't have a functioning reproductive system. Gay men have donated sperm, and lesbians have gotten pregnant via sperm donation. These are things that have ALREADY happened, and that is what would happen in your speculative world of everyone turning gay.
Why the obsession with this extremely unlikely, hypothetical scenario of everyone turning gay anyway? Doesn't seem very logical to me, and not very relevant either.
Meanwhile, as humanity is currently at 7 billion, let's think about things that are actually happening. Humanity going extinct is not currently a danger.
I see a lot of projection in what you have written. And abuse of the concept of "logic". You have merely replaced "God is on my side" with "logic is on my side" when in either case it is your own opinion.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 8, 2011 at 4:01am
Lol......
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 5, 2011 at 7:55am
lol...agreed...I have been told about that...
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 5, 2011 at 5:52pm
LOL I love it!
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 5, 2011 at 6:59am
I think homosexuality, and sexual orientation in general, is a naturally occurring spectrum of behaviors. There may be a genetic component, it may be developmentally determined in the womb, and there may be some childhood imprinting to it. It's not clear.
My guess is that the complex action going on during fetal development is the most likely determinant.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 5, 2011 at 5:53pm
Charles - that was a way better explanation than mine.... :)
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 5, 2011 at 8:35am
the first occurrence of homosexual culture in written script was the chronicles of grecian travelers who traveled into egypt, when they arrived in egypt, their habits were shunned, and they were exiled to the isle of lesbos...
they were not killed..
but they were not "accepted" in the general population..
this was also something perverse to the ancient indigenous people who inhabited the cradle of civilization, and they kept it AWAY from the eneral populace...
when one takes into account that the majority of greek philosophy is stolen or borrowed from egypt, yet homosexuality was shunned, should give one some insight into why greek philosophy is so popular why egypt has been shunned ( the bible has only negative to say about egypt)
and how homosexuality became so widespread...
either way
everyone grows at their own pace, and ones person path to enlightenment may be extremely different than anothers..
a person may have to be tortured
a person may have to be wealthy
a person may have to be homosexual
a person may have to be an amputee
a person may have to be poor...
to reach enlightenment
this is why judging people is highly fallacious
judging actions however is part of the day t day.
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Permalink Reply by atuanui on December 5, 2011 at 7:06am
Anyone who is homophobic is probably gay.
I come from a democratic country where everybody is equal.
Is the writer a nazi?
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 5, 2011 at 7:55am
I think generally homophobic individuals are probably not actually gay, But very sexually insecure and generally insecure people. What ever the truth, they need to rethink the cruel position they hold.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on December 5, 2011 at 9:15am
I wish this thread would disappear from the sidebar. I unfollowed it but the only way to avoid it is to not look at current threads. Maybe we should start a thread on whether atheists support heterosexuality. Heterosexuality IS the major source of many diseases, the scourge of overpopulation, global warming, and resource depletion, and the marriage of Kim Kardashian. In general I support heterosexuality, honest I do, but please keep it out of my face. No public displays of affection, please. I will try to avoid crackpot theories on why so many heterosexuals think their way is the only way; on why they think that all sex and affection must have reproductive potential; on whether people are born hetero or socialization makes them that way, on why so many heterosexuals think that "natural" is good, when 99% of us would be dead if not for unnatural medicine. i know that most animals are mostly heterosexual. Big deal. Most of them also don't have the internet, cant read, and cant run for political office. George W Bush, Michelle Bachmann, and Rick Perry are all heterosexual. Do you want to be like them?
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Permalink Reply by Dogly on December 5, 2011 at 11:52am
Sentient Biped, You mention that most animals can't run for political office. Sweetee - ;-) neither can we -atheists! It's something more important for us to work on, than this anti-gay rant.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 7, 2011 at 9:15am
lmao
talk about silly....
overpopulation?
lol
global warming? lol turn off that television lol
resource depletion? lol heterosexuals fault? lol
keep heterosexuality out of your face?
whoa...
so i guess when you see two dogs humping they should be jailed or put down lol...
WOW
lots of "probablies" round here...
look..
no one has to support heterosexuality homosexuality or ANY ADULT CHOICE.
why should adults WASTE THEIR TIME BABYSITTING ADULTS?
why are adults trying to get support from other adults?
are they starving?
has their nation been economically sanctioned?
has their been bombs dropped in their dwellings?
no?
oh...so again
why should any group of adults SUPPORT another group of adults, soley based on an ADULT CHOICE they have made regarding HOW THEY HAVE FUN?
ass-i9 allocation of time space and energy
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 7, 2011 at 10:40am
Won't someone please think of the kittens?!?!
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 7, 2011 at 10:40am
"No one has to support heterosexuality, homosexuality, or any adult choice." Most people here have said they don't "support" homosexuality so much as support the rights of people to live as they wish.
If any group is having their rights to live as they wish threatened, such as--I don't know--being killed under Sharia law perhaps, that is grounds for people "supporting" them beyond just leaving them alone.
Madhukar has said that homosexuality should be cured. That would be taking adults against their will and doing something that someone else thinks is for their own good. Sounds a lot more like babysitting.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 4, 2011 at 7:37pm
Interesting that you draw the possible conclusion that because someone doesn't pass on their genes, that they are abnormal
I didn't say that. I said that, I said they were less likely to pass on their genes.
Your response is not an evolutionary argument, but a social one.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 4, 2011 at 8:39pm
Charles - sorry I'm not being clear enough in my expression..... that is what I understood - but I accept your clarification. I realise that this is a sensitive and important subject for some people - and it is important to be clear and accurate when discussing so that people are not offended.
Evolutionary - social - perhaps you can clarify for me?
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 5, 2011 at 6:49am
My point was only that a homosexual's genes are less likely to be passed on. The possible connection of the occurrence of homosexuality to child rearing, kin selection, or group survival is not a genetic argument.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 5, 2011 at 5:51pm
Charles - OK I get you....... well we all share genes with our siblings and family and so others in the family can pass on our genes..... I think the gay thing comes from hormone production in the womb - I don't know if this is genetic or not - in that it happens more with certain genes or not.... but it is likely.... :)
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 5, 2011 at 6:39am
Very interesting points Alice. Charles a couple of posts up from here I posted an example which refutes your point. cheers
Vegan Ape
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 5, 2011 at 6:47am
No, it doesn't refute my point which was that it is less likely that one's genes would be passed on. Are you saying that homosexuality is genetic? There is no proof of that.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 5, 2011 at 5:49pm
I heard that it's to do with the hormones exposed to the baby in the womb - we are all girls to start with and then some get two boosts of testosterone - to make them boys - if there are interruptions to the hormones then you can get girls with boys brains or boys with girls brains..... to state it in a really black and white way..... :)
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 4, 2011 at 5:46pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa'afafine
I'm not sure of the credibility of description of this article - but the basic idea is true, as far as I'm aware.... :)
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 4, 2011 at 7:40pm
This has nothing to do with what I have said. However, you should also look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 4, 2011 at 8:34pm
Charles - interesting - by this it does show a historically way of dealing with homosexuality in different cultures - obviously there have been homosexuals for a long time..... and different cultures have dealt with it in different ways.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 5, 2011 at 6:42am
No offense to either....But oh how I shudder when I see links to wikipedia!!!.
cheers
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 5, 2011 at 6:54am
If that makes you shudder, please don't look at conservapedia.com, you will do more than shudder.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 4, 2011 at 12:13am
well I just notice that a lot of single friends will advice a person to leave their partner when times are tough - instead of encouraging them to work it out and providing hints and tips on how to get through difficult times in the relationship.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 11:21pm
I think divorce just indicates the poor choice made in getting married in most cases, I see a lot of people getting married very quickly after meeting, sometimes only a year or so. I think you need to live with a partner for years to know enough about your compatibility or lack of it. A lack of maturity at all ages by the majority of people is the main problem.
On a side note " GO PENNY WONG !!!!" I loved her speech in sydney the other day.
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Permalink Reply by NH Baritone on December 4, 2011 at 9:11am
Conservative Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have so strongly reined in sexual expression that the entire culture is permeated with harsh judgment toward sexual variations.
Not only do homosexuals suffer from such disapproval, but also anyone who watches pornography, who masturbates, who falls outside gender norms, who explores role-play during sex, who cannot remain monogamous, etc., etc., etc.
Among the religious, the only universally acceptable form of sexual expression is a married, heterosexual couple in bed in the missionary position, and such restrictions would condemn a large portion of society, including gay men and lesbians, to lives of celibacy and self-denial. In other words, the churches have tried to be in charge of stopping sex, and in many ways forbidding expressions of love.
Atheists who have left these religions behind have had to grapple with creating self-acceptance in a world where rejection of our non-faith is common. Those who have decided to "come out" as atheists have noticed a shared experience with gay self-acceptance. We gay folks have been grappling with rejection for years ... decades ... generations.
Nothing can bond a people together so much as a shared experience. Atheists and GLBT folks have a common relationship with society at large, so we share a common goal. I have been exceedingly grateful for the voices from the atheist community raised in support for equal rights for members of the GLBT community, including equal marriage rights and non-discrimination laws.
And I have been equally disappointed in parts of my GLBT community who have too often sided with the religious elements of society, in spite of all the harsh judgments they have inflicted on us.
So, Madhukar, I encourage you to broaden your perspective. Human sexuality comprises a beautiful kaleidoscope of fulfilling expressions and creative connections. MOST of them will not be your cup of tea. But so long as there is no deceit, harm, and the activities occur among consenting adults, I urge you not to begin from a place of expected disapproval when you are not on your own identify with a given sexual attraction or practice. Instead examine why you might feel so negative about a people who love one another differently from the way you yourself practice. Unless there is evidence for deceit or harm, then chances are your judgments echo from a religious culture and potentially your own religious background.
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Permalink Reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on December 4, 2011 at 11:57am
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Much better than I could have articulated.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 5, 2011 at 6:33am
Very well said!
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 4, 2011 at 4:36pm
I think there is a strong correlation between atheism and belief in equality. That said, one could have a personal bias against homosexuality, or mount an argument based on natural selection.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 4, 2011 at 4:43pm
nah... sure individuals may feel personal revulsion at the thought of homosexuality.... but you might feel the same about eating a particular food..... just because you don't like the idea of eating raw cauliflower, doesn't mean you should stop someone else doing it.
In terms of natural selection - how could you mount an argument based on that for being against people following their natural instinct?
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 4, 2011 at 4:47pm
The evolutionary argument would be that homosexuals are not likely to pass on their genes.
One's revulsion could be so strong that one's belief should be that it's unnatural and no one should do it. These are not my views, just making the argument.
I don't care for broccoli and really have a problem with broccoli apologists. ;->
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 5, 2011 at 6:37am
This is not strictly true, take a gay brother to a sister that procreates. If he is a good uncle and protective of his sister he could perhaps allow a child to be raised to the age of procreation in an environment where it may not have been successful without the assistance. So it is quite complex and the fact that homosexuality even exists is evidence that some for of beneficial selection has occurred.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 4, 2011 at 4:49pm
Sure, homosexuals may be less likely to pass on their genes - but how does that make an argument against them being homosexual? Isn't that just a bi product of their nature, rather than a reason to go against their nature?
Also - I've met quite a few women in gay relationships with children, and also I've met 2 sets of gay couples who have decided to have children together - meaning that they did pass on their genes and the children got 4 parents instead of 2.
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Permalink Reply by Charles Beddoe on December 4, 2011 at 5:00pm
Sure, homosexuals may be less likely to pass on their genes - but how does that make an argument against them being homosexual?
It doesn't - it's an argument for being opposed to homosexuality as being abnormal, therefore being opposed to it.
Also - I've met quite a few women in gay relationships with children ...
I didn't say they wouldn't or couldn't, just less likely.
I'm not invested in these arguments, just answering the OP's question.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 4, 2011 at 5:43pm
Interesting that you draw the possible conclusion that because someone doesn't pass on their genes, that they are abnormal - In fact I think that because humans are social animals, extra adults that don't pass on their genes are assets, because they are not tied up with child care - and they can do other things like gather food and protect the group - or take care of other people's children whilst they do other chores - in fact in some societies it was considered a blessing to have a gay child, and they were given a special place in the community. Lots of different issues there to think about......
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 3, 2011 at 9:08am
That is a good argument, but here are some others-
Joint parental rights of children, status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions, crime victims recovery benefits, domestic violence protection orders, automatic inheritance in the absence of a will, public safety officers death benefits, spousal veterans benefits, social security, medicare, joint filing of tax returns, wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children, child support, estate and gift tax benefits, welfare and public assistance, and joint housing for elderly.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 10:38am
it certainly is ridiculous that so many things can be effected for a minority and still not be classed by some governments as discrimination...Ours in Australia for example....But today we won a little of the battle. ( GO PENNY WONG YOU ARE A LEGEND!!!)
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 7, 2011 at 9:31am
lol
heres a site that you may find soome actual factuals on instead of making erroneous claims
www.thinkfree.ca
your apparent knowledge of this realm is EXTREMELY limited, but common.
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Permalink Reply by David Raphael on December 3, 2011 at 8:53am
"I have problems understanding why anyone would want to get married at all."
Then you haven't really thought it through. Let me give you an example. In my case, we are an international couple and living as single people had an enormous impact on inter-country tax, healthcare issues (not to mention kin status should one of you become ill), insurance liabilities, and residency statuses.
It has nothing to do with religion. It has nothing to do with tradition.
It's not far removed from a business partnership.
Gay people want to marry for exactly the same reasons that straight people do. And we agree that because there is no reason not to see them as equal in a civilised society that right should be extended to them also.
As to how gay people can also be christian, given the bible's animosity toward them, I don't know. But that's for them to worry about.
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Permalink Reply by Sandi on December 4, 2011 at 7:39am
I guess it is just a personal thing for me, I am simply not into the 'idea' of marriage when couples can just live together, as I did with my 'husband'. As for having to get married for a business partnership as you have noted, this too seems silly. A ceremony, religious or not and a piece of paper doesn't really cement a relationship. Having that relationship in the first place is the real agreement - consenting adults etc etc. Over time we have seen many cultural traditions come and go, we try to hold on to some but after a while we forget them after they are gone. Sorry, I am quite the bah humbug type of person.
I actually went to a wedding yesterday. They were getting married because she was pregnant and to them it was the right thing to do so the baby was not born out of wedlock. These are the wedding ceremonies I refer to and why I consider them religious, also during the reading the paster had noted that this was a union before the eyes of god.
A lot of people have non religious ceremonies for legal reasons, but still one that is not necessary as in most countries, common law or de facto relationships are just as binding and just as messy in the end. I still do not understand the practice but as I said I am a bah humbug person.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 10:35am
My wife and I had a secular wedding outdoors at a lookout with a non-religous celebrant and It was the best thing I ever did. there may be many other ways to display love and if that works for you thats fine but just because a church used to be a religious building doesn't mean it wouldn't make a nice museum, I see weddings the same way for people. It is a way of taking a bit of history and using it in a meaningful modern secular way. It is very important as a way of claiming acceptance in a lot of families and validation of your love for another. For this reason I can totally understand why LGBT would wan't to get married.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 3, 2011 at 6:11pm
It's about equal rights for all..... other than love - it's about inheritance tax and other stuff..... if your room mate dies you don't automatically inherit their money - but you do if they are your wife/husband.... the law sees a gay couple as room mates - not partners.... it also effects tax laws and other laws regarding couples... as well as adoption laws in some places... and gay people also sometimes want to have kids and perhaps choose to adopt.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 10:40am
My posts just went in all the wrong places.....now thats kinda like "pegging" isn't it Doc'.....lol
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 3, 2011 at 11:17am
Sometimes places that seem wrong turn out to be right:)
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 12:39pm
too true.....
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 3, 2011 at 6:54pm
really! i think that we have divorce to due to lack of commitment and support from family and friends..... it might be cultural also..... but maybe it's the new way of being.... not mating for life, but serial monogamy.... perhaps that's ok too... we're not designed - we have evolved and so don't need to stick with one way of doing things.....
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 11:27pm
What kind of support do you need form anyone but your other half to have a successful marriage. Other than legal support of course. I see no problem in serial monogamy, But I still think it is indicative of a lack of constitution, A flippant life is fine and its anyones choice but I think they are missing out on structure that could help them become more stable ( If stability is important for them personally.). However I say non of this as judgement, I just think marriage is a good tool......Its just a shame about some of the TOOLS using it!!
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by NH Baritone on December 5, 2011 at 8:40am
You appear to be using support in a fashion that may not have been intended.
I think you may require the support for your weed usage from another adult with a law degree, should the authorities place you under arrest. For if you are convicted, you would then become ineligible for student loans, public housing (in the event you become physically disabled), or other Federally-supported benefits.
The issue at hand is the governmental power being applied to punish certain behaviors. Support, in this instance, means attempting to have those laws and regulations changed.
Homosexuality was a criminal act in several US states until 2003. In several of them, it was a felony. Gay people were until this year routinely drummed out of the military. Multinational gay couples are forced to split now because deportation laws are hemmed in by the Defense of Marriage Act.
These are all instances where support for changing these laws is good public policy.
And for the record, even though I have never once in my life smoked marijuana, I believe it should be legalized and sold openly next to the Michelob and the Marlboros. I have even written my legislators regarding that topic. So you have my full support, without my participation.
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 5, 2011 at 9:10am
Exactly. Nafir must live in a place where smoking and growing pot is totally legal. If not, he will just have to tell the authorities that he is an adult and has made an adult choice that has nothing to do with him. That should work.
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Permalink Reply by Rob van Senten on December 5, 2011 at 10:11am
"So you have my full support, without my participation."
Well said, Sir!
When society in general persecutes and ostracizes people it is not just those who are the victims that need to speak up!
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 5, 2011 at 10:31am
Yes, the best way to protect your own rights is to support the rights of others.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApess on December 2, 2011 at 11:54pm
Wouldn't it be great if religious people just got on with their life and stopped hurting other people as they are the true evil in this world.They have all these rules (from a book) yet they are the first to brake them but thats ok because the magic men in the sky will forgive them.what a joke.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 4:04am
I think I saw that book on special at the cheap shop......they were running out with the other old books of irrelevant stories....for less than the cost of the paper I might add.......and here I am thinking toilet paper was going to be expensive this week........
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Permalink Reply by VeganApess on December 3, 2011 at 7:10am
love it...
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 5, 2011 at 8:27am
it would be great if religion was done away with...in my OPINION
however
for a LOT OF PEOPLE, the fear of "hell/hades" is the only thing stopping them from making a VICTIM OUT OF YOU...
and this is the reality of man management..
everything is the way it is supposed to be, and will be so until its not supposed to be.
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Permalink Reply by Sandi on December 3, 2011 at 8:22am
I still have problems understanding why gay people would want to get married anyway, actually I have problems understanding why anyone would want to get married at all. It costs a lot of ridiculous money for a simple ceremony and a piece of paper. It is simply a tradition that we have held onto for centuries. I also consider it a religious tradition.
Simply my personal opinion on marriage, but I also have a problem understanding christian gays. I cannot fathom the fact that they would believe in the almighty when he has a huge problem with them, or at least his followers do. But that is my atheism talking and a personal view.
In this modern world we are able to live in a relationship, legally, without the marriage ceremony. I guess I have more of a problem with traditions than any thing else. We hold onto traditions like they are sacred, when in fact they are nothing more that a habit that we have gotten used to.
I whole-heartedly support the gay movement, but am quite tired of the marriage debate. I just seems ridiculous that people object to something that will not affect their lives in any way shape or form. Really, what harm will come to you if the gay couple next door are married or not? they are going to do their thing regardless. It is not as though the opposers are going to wipe out homosexuality, if people feel that way they are going to do it so let them be.
Humans - always and forever making mountains out of mole hills.
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 3, 2011 at 8:41am
It has nothing to do with ceremony. Anyone can have a ceremony. It is a legal issue. If you aren't aware of the legal benefits of being married as opposed to co-habitating or just being in a relationship, than you are extremely uninformed and I don't even know where to begin.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 7, 2011 at 9:29am
YOU clearly are ignorant of the law.
what is a LICENSE?
a LICENSE is an instrument permitting one to do something that is normally PROHIBITED.
who was PROHIBITED FROM GETTING MARRIED about 200 yrs ago?
chattel property...
wards of the state
children of the state
"persons"
thus the requirement to get LICENSED to be tied to your partner in the eyes of govt, should clue you in to your actual status as a "citizen"
you should be careful when talking about being uninformed, if you yourself are uninformed..
if you would like the actual legal definition of license go to the blacks law dictionary volume 4 and look it up
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 3, 2011 at 8:45am
I know that some liberals are against gay marriage b/c they are against marriage in general or because they think gay marriage will pressure gays into being "imitation heterosexuals" instead of having different kinds of relationships. Still, people should have the choice.
As someone who married an immigrant, I think of how if someone is in a relationship with an immigrant of the same sex, their partner can be deported and there is nothing they can do. This may be an obscure reason to most people but for me it is the strongest argument for gay marriage.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by zeeman barzell on December 2, 2011 at 9:05pm
hmmm...would pegging be considered gay sex or straight sex?
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 2, 2011 at 10:40pm
If i have it right it would be female - female digital substitution
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 3, 2011 at 7:30am
Pegging is straight sex and it involes a lady sporting a strap-on.
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 3, 2011 at 7:32am
And, to avoid further confusion, it involes a lady and a man. And anal sex, folks. Anal sex. Good, old-fashioned, straight anal sex.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 3, 2011 at 8:46am
Wait, you mean straight people do it up the ass?!?!?!
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 10:42am
shhhhh don't tell the 2 prudes on the last page
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 3, 2011 at 10:42am
oh.....never would have got that......thankyou for the clarification....my bloody mind was doing loops.....lol
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 5, 2011 at 8:18am
at least shyt wont clog up the strap on...
lol
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 5, 2011 at 9:12am
?
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Permalink Reply by VeganApess on December 2, 2011 at 11:33pm
lol
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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 2, 2011 at 11:04pm
I support humans loving who they wish in mutually consensual adult relationships.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 5, 2011 at 8:25am
if its an adult choice why does that adult try to garner support from other adults?
as an adult i choose to smoke weed.. do you think that i should try to garner support from other adults?
why?
as an adult shouldnt we do as we please as long as it doesnt negatively affect OTHERS?
why do we need to support grown ups?
this really escapes me..
if people just acted responsibly, there would be no need for this "support"
when an adult is RAPED VICTIMIZED, i can understand the need to rebuild the psyche etc..ie support is usefull and often necessary..
but support because i made a lifestyle choice?
that is what media execs who operate in the higher tiers call the art of distraction...
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 11:54pm
What is more important than supporting the dignity of other humans and animals? Once the visor of religion is removed we have less excuse to stand by and do nothing than does a deluded theist.
By supporting those that need defence we add value to our lives.
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 2, 2011 at 10:15am
Ape, is it me, or is that comment difficult to understand?
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 2, 2011 at 5:08pm
How so?....Is it the animals part......I am a militant vegan.....or is it just my lack of punctuation? cheers.
VeganApe
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 5, 2011 at 7:57am
why are u a militant vegan?
i havent eaten animal flesh or excrements/secretions for about 21 yrs now...
but i GUARANTEE the reason i dont consume animals is different than yours...
and i SHUN labels...im not trying to be cool..i just do what works for me.
animal rights? lol
i have brothers in india africa south asiasouth america, central america australia.. that eat ONE SQUARE MEAL A WEEK, but i should be concerned about squirrels?
cart before the horse...
i have yet to see a bird or a dog in wilderness sufferring to find food and shelter...
however 80% of the humans on this planet suffer that plight...
but we should be concerned with dogs and cats?
i assume you do not have any children....
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Permalink Reply by VeganApess on December 2, 2011 at 11:32pm
we sure do.love your words xxxx
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Permalink Reply by mistercliff on December 1, 2011 at 7:36pm
As atheism is unorganized and defined by disbelief rather than belief, it's a badly-formed question to ask what atheists believe in. I would say quite a few atheists do support homosexuality, however, because many of us try to think using rationality rather than belief and almost every reason I've heard to oppose homosexuality is based on religion.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApess on December 2, 2011 at 11:31pm
agreed.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 5, 2011 at 8:16am
the mere FACT that the TERM atheist is an ACTUAL TERM implies organization..and disbelief and belief are the SAME! they both require DOUBT and both exist because of a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE..
if someone asks you are you mistercliff do you say " i believe so" or do you say "yes"?
belief requires doubt..and thus atheism is STRUCTURED and systemic.
regarding the reasons to oppose homosexuality..
why oppose it?
why support it?
should we not assume that people who are copulating, are doing the BUSINESS OF ADULTS?
why do adults need support?
children need support...
this is some true crybaby shyt...
when you see young able bodied teens on the sidewalk begging for cash..the general response is "get a job" or " take care of your own responsibilities"
yet when we reach adulthood, all of a sudden we are not supposed to be responsible for our choices, and need to be SUPPORTED BY OTHER ADULTS?
lol
funny...
as well how about this argument for opposing homosexuality namely ANAL SEX...
do you use your hand to wipe your ass?
do you shit into a plate or into a toilet bowl where your shyt is immersed in water to diminish the ODOUR of the TOXINS that came out of your ass which we call feces or shyt or dew dew lol
if you have children..did they wear diapers?
really?
did you clean their asses with our hand? or did you use wipes of cloth or paper?
ok..so if weve been trained to AVOID SHYT since we were small and then got toilet trained and still keep SHYT AWAY from our bodies..
does it make sense to put ones penis into the shyt source?
why do we use toilet paper again?
cause shyt is DIRTY...
real simple.
now please try to find the dogma there..
the religious doctrine.. lol
we can call it the doctrine of dooo dooo
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Permalink Reply by zeeman barzell on December 2, 2011 at 11:53am
If any smoking hot ladies wish to practice homosexuality with me, I fully support it!
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 2, 2011 at 1:09pm
Pegging! Hot!
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 2, 2011 at 5:14pm
Do I dare to ask?......actually I think I got it.......falic substitution...I think........no comment .....no carry on nothing to see here....lol.
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Permalink Reply by Tenken on December 2, 2011 at 7:42pm
Is that the same as "packing"?
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Norma Lee on December 1, 2011 at 7:26pm
Wow, I have said that.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on December 1, 2011 at 10:58am
With 9 billion people on the planet, there is no danger of extinction if a few million are gay. what a stupid argument. rights for people who are gay does not presuppose that homosexuality is the norm. that is an argument that bigots use to persecute gays.
anyone who thinks that religions dont persecute gays is either lying or joking.
anyone who says that gay people cant care for children is sheltered from the many gay people who do care for children.
this argument is unsophisticated and uninformed. It's amazing in its lack of logic. No well formulated argument, no facts, just stupid things that people say as excuses to persecute others.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 1, 2011 at 1:16pm
I think he was also insinuating "think of the children!" in there somewhere. Kids don't think that there is anything unusual about homosexuality until they are given that message. As a kid I remember asking why men don't marry men and why women don't marry women. And I remember other kids being similar until "gay" became a mysterious insult word, and I didn't know the actual meaning of it until later.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 1, 2011 at 2:16pm
insinuating?
really?
i thought that this forum would be a little more actual factual and detail oriented than it has proven to be.
we both speak english..it is actually my mother tongue, if you think that i am being unclear ( ie insinuating) please isolate the phrase in question and ask me what i meant by it.
i dont think i used complex vocabulary anywhere in this forum as yet.
lemme know when you found that " think of the children" thingee you are referring to...
in actuality i said that ADULTS make choices and as an ADULT one should be responsible for the choice and the ramifications associated with said choice.
that is not really insinuating anything.
that is a plain statement.
if you disagree with it, that is cool, you have the right to do so
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 1, 2011 at 2:12pm
the argument...if you care to read was if everyone..
not a minor fraction...
obviously it is a minor fraction... and i dont have a prob with any fraction within the whole... even theists lol
nature persecutes homosexuals...
nature is waaay bigger than you or me..
i dont care what a person wants to do...as long as s/he isnt a cannibal, i could really care less how a person chooses to grow.
growth is particular to the one growing.
go back and assess the actual position..
here it is again
if EVERYONE on the planet was gay, there would be no progeny.
progeny is never a result of homosexual copulation...
refute that if it is so unsophisticated.
if you can locate a portion in any of my posts where i condemn homosexuals, please do so
if you can locate a portion in any of my posts where i say that homosexuals can not raise children, please do so
if you can not..
then scroll up and heed the message of simple simon
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Permalink Reply by Dogly on December 1, 2011 at 2:11pm
nafir and MADHUKAR, what are you guys so worried about. If you are concerned about sexual feelings you may have for men, relax. It's OK! But speaking disrespectfully about gay people to distance yourself from your feelings is not helpful. Usually, straight men do not share your exquisite curiosity about the sex practices of gay men. Lots of information is available on other sites to help you answer any questions you may have about your feelings.
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 1, 2011 at 2:18pm
I was thinking the same thing.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on December 1, 2011 at 4:20pm
i hope not. that would be way too scary. meanwhile, time to "un follow". This is way too ignorant for me to think I can contribute anything. when the same old shit is promulgated for the 10 millionth time, by the willfully ignorant, it's best (for me) to keep away from the baiting and leave. How dumb I can be, to respond to such ignorance.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 10:27pm
wise words.....
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 10:26pm
Lol......Thou protests to much!
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 5, 2011 at 7:53am
im not worried ...
worrying bring warts :P
i merely stated fact...
people seem to have gotten their undies in a bunch because i said that homosexual relations result in NO PROGENY...
i didnt know this was breaking news... i really thought this was an understood...
if ANYONE can pull up ANY statement of mine that condemns homosexuals, or ANY OTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE, please do so...
if not, realize that someone is using political strategies to MARKET a specific erroneous idea...
that idea being, that I NAFIR NUN said something defamatory about a group of people.
when asked to present the material in question...seems like NO ONE has been up to the task..
i expected more from a forum called atheist nexus
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Permalink Reply by Norma Lee on December 1, 2011 at 7:23pm
No! I don't support homosexuals.I support reality and has nothing to do homosexuals. Worrying about it takes time from more important things. If I were prejudiced it would be because i'm not and don't understand but then I don't have to.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Tenken on December 1, 2011 at 9:33am
Madhukar,
If you want to discuss sexual pleasure, then make a discussion about sexual pleasure. If you want to discuss adherence to your "social order," make a discussion about that. If you want to discuss atheists' lack of decency, make a discussion about that. It seems that homosexuality plays only a superficial part in much of this discussion and that there are more fundamental arguments you are trying to make. Examples:
Is marriage a fundamental right?
For example, the right for gay marriages? Can this be said to be a fundamental right?
Should consensual sexual behavior always be condoned (despite being legal, if it indicates psychological disorder/if it weakens us as a species/etc)?
Reproductive ability is one important reason for evolution...
I am extremely sorry if my choice of the word ‘disorder’ is causing so much anguish, but I hope eventually you will all realize what I am driving at and will then pardon me for this.
Should humans have sex for purposes other than reproduction?
Reproductive ability is one important reason for evolution and life forms on this planet have been endowed with this natural ability... The family system is created and sustained because of desire for orderly reproduction. Homosexuality completely ignores this...
Should humans have sex outside of legal marriage?
If animal pleasure can be given so much importance, why not legalise extra-marital relations?
Should legal marriage be a part of our social system?
Or, remove the institution of marriage from our social system?
What is the purpose of legal marriage?
...what would be the purpose of homosexual marriage?
Should people be allowed to legally marry if it is expected that they will divorce?
With legalized homosexual marriage, do all homosexuals want to marry? How long their marriages last?
Should members of a community always adopt the most popular moral code (even when they disagree/even when it's undesirable/even when it's harmful)?
Should the homosexuals be guided by some moral code, that may be acceptable to the society they live in?
What is a mental disorder?
If homosexuality can be treated medically, is it not a ‘disorder’?
Should we condone sex acts outside of vaginal penetration by a penis?
The typical sexual practices of homosexuals are a medical horror story:
Their sex practices include:
ORAL SEX
RECTAL SEX
...
We do concern ourselves with society’s health.
Should we condone popular lifestyles that reduce life expectancy of individuals? (Note: Homosexual behavior may not actually reduce life expectancy, even if modern self-identified homosexuals do live unhealthy lifestyles for other reasons.)
“The median age of death for homosexuals,
however, was virtually the same nationwide--and, overall, less than 2% survived
to old age.”
...
We do concern ourselves with society’s health.
Madhukar, notice how all of these issues exist independent of homosexuality. Opinions on these issues will subsequently affect the opinion on whether homosexuality should be supported, but they will also affect opinions on a huge variety of other issues as well.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 1, 2011 at 9:57am
I like the breaking down of this discussion into separate questions.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 1, 2011 at 9:17am
atheist support of homosexuality?
why do homosexuals need support?
children need support...
adults should be supporting children...
this cry for support is "gay" pun intended...
religion opposes homosexuality??
really?
okay..it is an understood that religious tenets are generally for the sake of man management.. okay ...
however
if homosexuality was the norm
you and i would not be included in this dialogue..because the planet would no longer have humans on it...
nature opposes homosexual copulation.
im not sure why simple things are made to be complicated.
hey if a dude wants to shove his penis into a caterpillar in an attempt to change it into a butterlfy
i say go for it..
regardless if I know the err of his way, the ill logic of the action, and the inevitability of his failure, it is not my duty to raise adults.
freedom to choose etc are freedoms that i promote.
there are consequences for each choice though
and if one feels adult enough to "make choices" then one should be adult enough to accept the ramifications/consequences of said choice...
rather simple concept in my opinion.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 9:29am
"nature opposes homosexual copulation."
This is total garbage, The animal kingdom is full of bisexual homosexual and monosexual acts. Not only that but evolution requires a lot more diversity than the simple monsoonal world you suggest. Genetic mutation and then selection requires the exploration of all types of humans ( yes even biggots like you). Your oversimplification is a reflection of your extremely limited intellect ( unfortunately also one of natures other outcomes) I would suggest if any genetics was flawed and likely to be a waste of time it would more likely be yours......
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 1, 2011 at 1:58pm
if nature encouraged homosexuality
reproduction through homosexuality would be a reality.
it isnt
whether or not i condone homosexuality is a non issue.
i condone free choice.
when you find an occurence of reproduction through homosexual copulation...lemme know..
for the record, im sure you are aware of the chromosomal assemblage of humans and how they are derived...
ie xx xy etc...
your attempt at derision or defamation has been noted..
bigot?
lol
lemme know when you find that occurrence in your "complex" world ;)
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 10:21pm
You know nothing about evolution and natural selection. genes are more complex than that.
For example let us say that a particular mutation created an offspring that had a large nose. If you then isolate a gene that you find is consistent with this expression you may think that you have found the "big nose gene". However if you then look and find that the individual has webbed toes you may later find that the gene you isolated was involved in growth regulation and was responsible for more than just a big nose. This can and due to the fact that homosexuality exists probably is what occurs. So I am afraid your wikipedia education has yet to take you to the realm of understanding you will need to justify your bigotry.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 2, 2011 at 8:32pm
If the only purpose of sex is reproduction, why do people who don't want children still want sex? Why do people who can't have children want sex?
People with fertility problems want sex. People who have had hysterectomies, vasectomies, and tubal ligations want sex. People who are on birth control or who have gone through menopause want sex. People have sex with themselves. If you're saying that only sex which can result in reproduction is OK, you should be putting all these people in the same category as homosexuals.
Also, homosexuality may be something that becomes more prevalent when a species is overpopulated. Not being able to reproduce is sometimes a good thing. Like now.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 1, 2011 at 10:04am
Facepalm facepalm facepalm. I try not to be rude but the "homosexuality is bad because if everyone was gay then there would be no people" is the dumbest argument ever.
By this logic can we also demonize all heterosexuals, because heterosexual sex has resulted in overpopulation which is destroying the planet?
Do you have any evidence that only heterosexual people are capable of getting pregnant or getting others pregnant?
I'm pretty sure that if everyone, by some extraordinary miracle, did become homosexual, guys would just donate sperm to women who decided to have children. Kind of like how gays already do.
The difference is, gay people consciously decide to bring life into the world rather than just get knocked up and bringing kids in the world with no parenting abilities, no interest in the children, no resources, and no plans on how to raise them.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 1, 2011 at 1:20pm
Disclaimer: I know I might be construed as putting down straight people here. I am putting down straight people who have children irresponsibly but still think they're special and better than gays because they can have children.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 1, 2011 at 2:06pm
this is one of the most asinine responses i have ever viewed on the internet...
you actually think that parents feel they are better than gay people?
lmao
are you familiar with the psychological term "projection"
if you can not pull up and post the segment where i said that homosexual people are less than heterosexual people, please do so..
if you can not, ill accept your apology ;)
heres another quick question...
when was the first sperm bank established?
when was the first successful in vitro fertilization?
ok scroll back 200 yrs...
if everyone turned gay at that point, would you and i be engaging in this discussion?
ok..
simple simon says...relax and dont make things bigger than they are...
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 1, 2011 at 2:01pm
lol
if everyone turned gay tomorrow...
how many humans would be left on planet earth by 2112?
simple question
sperm donation?
lol
thats funny...
everyone that makes a choice, should be responsible for it.
if you choose to cop out and deny responsibility for ones choice, and have to go to extraneous means to offset the ramifications of ones choice, then so be it...
just own up and be responsible for the decisions you make...
its rather simple.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 1, 2011 at 2:19pm
The difference is, gay people consciously decide to bring life into the world rather than just get knocked up and bringing kids in the world with no parenting abilities, no interest in the children, no resources, and no plans on how to raise them.
what are you insinuating here?
;)
for the record, i just gave you an example of how to ASK for clarity ;)
instead of just making assumptions about insinuations
carry on
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Naresh@atheistnexus on November 29, 2011 at 11:08am
Namaste Madhukar,
Though I being a straight, I do not find anything wrong or wierd to be attracted on same sex. Its not at all important for me if homosexuality is been opposed by any religion or not. But opposing homosexuality means favouring inequality, which is also a conservative thought. Atheists are liberal & free thinkers & we do not support any conservative thoughts for whatsoever reason. So according to me Atheist should not oppose homosexuality, but supporting homosexuality should depend upon every person's perspectives.
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Permalink Reply by veganboxer on November 30, 2011 at 4:40pm
I support not supporting the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic divine views on homosexuality
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Permalink Reply by Tenken on November 30, 2011 at 9:42pm
The more I think about this, the more ridiculous it is that we are even having this discussion. Instead of using a label like "homosexuality" as some arbitrary distinction, let's take a look at what we are really discussing.
Mutually consensual intimacy.
It's absurd to discuss whether this should or shouldn't be supported. Nothing in life is more important than love. Even survival of the species is undesirable if we cease to enjoy our existence.
Why are we pretending like the cause of homosexual attraction/behavior actually matters? It doesn't. The truth is that searching for the cause can only be beneficial or neutral for the gay movement, no matter what the findings are. People will always deserve the freedom of mutually consensual intimacy.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 5:48am
Agreed ....Sexuality is a broad array of complex emotions and physical acts of which one facet is actual physical penal-vaginal intercourse. So why even bother concerning yourself that two people in love may be limited to one less mechanical act yet may gain other possibilities. Do you go and quiz your neighbours on which type of act they will perform tonight. Love is expressed in many ways ....get over it!......or under it...or onto of it....or in it...or up it.....etc .....but mainly.......
GET OVER IT!!!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on December 1, 2011 at 6:52am
"OK, I just can't resist. Jesus in a dog's butt, from Brazil. Pareidolia personified. I won't send this to my Christian friends, LOL!"
An atheist has recently posted this photo in a discussion. Is this how we show our dissent? To my mind, this shows a total lack of decency.
MADHUKAR KULKARNI.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 7:07am
Lol....that photo of jesus is a remarkable likeness of a dogs anus....and just as full of sh*t.
When you call someone else's sole expression of love for another human an curable illness...You will evoke these responses....I think you are offending others far more than a pic of a dogs arse...
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Permalink Reply by Dogly on December 1, 2011 at 7:08am
Madhukar, throughout the years, superstitious christians (redundant?) have announced the miraculous appearance of the image of Jesus, or Mary on everything from tavern doors, to tacos. Then begin the shrines, and pilgrimages. In many cultures dogs are held in the lowest level of scorn. To be called a dog, or strangely, a shoe shine boy, are the worst insults. Here, we like dogs. To me, this image is a marvel and a MIRACLE! Praise Jebus!
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 7:25am
besides it is better looking than the front end of many humans.....I second jebus's praisability
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on December 1, 2011 at 7:32am
Agreed. Recently, in my very own town, some catholics found mary in a splash of bird shit.
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Permalink Reply by David Raphael on December 1, 2011 at 7:35am
To me this is not at all indecent.
If anything it is a satirical look at religious pareidolia. But yes, it's what some people might consider to be 'toilet humour', but your dislike of the image has nothing to do with atheism per se, only to do with your personal tastes. It's not even about whether of not the image is moral or immoral; it's just about personal taste.
This may be a cultural consideration, Madhukar, but I have to say your views in general are coming across as quite reactionary, at least to me. But that's ok, that's your opinion and if you don't like the image that's fine.
You seem to want to apply to (conservative) moral code to atheism, but atheism doesn't function like a belief system. You're treating atheism as if it were an ideology or a religious or political style belief system.
Atheism simply means not believing in god. Atheism is primarily not anti-religious organisation with a political manifesto; it is merely the absence of a specific belief among a wide number of very different people across cultural boundaries.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 7:48am
I had at first thought you had had this photo posted after one of your comments in another thread as a humorous retort to your antigay comments. I now realise it was just the photo itself you object to. I personally am amazed and beginning to think you are perhaps a covert theist trying to preach in an atheist forum. Are you serious that you find this pic in general offensive?.....you really do have a problem with the anus don't you. which is ironic give the kind of sh*t you have come out with in this thread.
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Permalink Reply by nafir nun on December 1, 2011 at 9:24am
no "j's in amaraic
y'shua translates to joshua
prior to 2nd council of nice there was no "jesus christ"
that council was convened 325 c.e
although this is a humorous attempt..the mere mention and support of the "jesus" bullshyt works to the advantage of judeaochislamians..
which in turn works to the disadvantage of truth.
this urge to "find" jesus is akin to finding the polkaroo or the snuffalupagus or the frikkin smurfs
the sooner we abandon that piece-o-shyt-paradigm, the better.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Tenken on November 29, 2011 at 8:27pm
...I would still hold that if homosexuality can find cures, then it is desirable to do so.
You have not given any reasons for this. Calling it a disorder is just a way to rephrase that it is undesirable. Why is it undesirable? Let's consider that the survival of the species is actually threatened by population growth at this point. Let's also consider how unlikely it is that the promotion of homosexual behavior will result in a dangerous decline in reproduction.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 4:11am
Attention: - MADHUKAR KULKARNI.
You may be an atheist........But you are not an ethical one. You may have shed your religious indoctrination but you are far from shedding the cultural flaws resulting from religion.Maybe you do not wish to be ethical??....but if you do, I think you should seriously rethink your position on sexual equality ( or in your case the lack of it)........
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Permalink Reply by David Raphael on November 29, 2011 at 11:23am
I really don't have the time to point out every falsehood and misconception in your statements, but at least let me state that they are numerous...
"Genes are what decide how a man behaves."
And what about environment?
"Homosexuality completely ignores this noble human emotion and is centered
around questionable pleasure."
This reads like the biased views of the most right wing religious zealots. I'm sure you don't mean it to use such inflammatory terms such as 'noble' and 'questionable'....
"I must once again state emphatically that I have no desire
of offending anyone,"
Then be careful how you phrase things.
"As far as I am aware, the medical science says that
homosexuality is neither a medical nor psycological disorder but does not say
what exactly it is."
So you didn't read the quotes I posted for you about how studies show that homosexuality is normal?
"28% of these [gay] marriages had already ended in divorce or death.”"
well, that's lower than the percentages in heterosexual unions
'Homosexuals practice anal and oral sex' Guess what - so do heterosexuals! Is that also evidence of abnormality or a 'disorder'?
Come on, this is a site that promotes reason and logic, and you're not doing every well on either count. Your quotes are unconnected, specious, and don't seem entirely pertinent. It reads like you're trying to make science somehow fit your personal views on homosexuality. Your ideas lack consistency and your claim of being unbiased in your investigation is not entirely believable because of some of your phraseology.
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Permalink Reply by Dogly on November 29, 2011 at 6:40pm
Madhukar, you respond to my saying that others' sexual practices do no harm, by talking about the noble emotion of wanting kids. What is so noble, in this world of over 7 billion humans, (most of them in India) in breeding yet MORE of us? Gay sex produces no kids, that makes it better suited for today's situation.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 5:40am
seconded.........my wife and I have no kids for this very reason. We are lucky that we can secure our love by being wed.....In our country (Australia) If we were both the same sex this would be impossible. Please Evolve your views Madhukar , I shore wish our government would!.
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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on December 1, 2011 at 6:11am
You are pointing to gay sex, comparing it with population in India. Since you may not be aware of situation in India, let me explain sometinng. Limiting family size is becoming very common in India. I myselrf know not less tham 15 families who have restricted number children to just one and taken a stop. If the population has expanded faster, when no proper methods were available, who can be blamed? Perhaps, as you say, homosexuality might have helped then, but not now. When I started this disscussion, I did expect some stormy discussions, but calling names and hitting below the belt were not expected.
I have done some deep thinking on this subject over a few years and I am willing to go further deeper. It is impossible to answer so many viewpoints of so many people at a time. People are doing the very thing I am accused of. When we discuss a serious subject, we must be prepared for serious differences of opinions. I cant accept some opinion just because some says some thing, and, on the other I am quite willing to try to put forward my thoughts without a clamour. I hope I will be able to continue this discussion without personal attacks, however big may be the differences in opinions. I belong to a place which is very different from yours and a serious difference in opinions is expected.
MADHUKAR KULKARNI.
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Permalink Reply by David Raphael on December 1, 2011 at 6:21am
As long as opinions are not falsely presented as facts then everything is ok...
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on December 1, 2011 at 6:27am
I am a vegan, anarchist, atheist, non drinker, non smoker in Australia.....Believe me it is possible to define your own ethics and go against societal norms. So living in a different place is no excuse for adopting the ways of the masses and the dubious ethics they follow......cheers
Kind regards to you Madhukar........Do not despair, challenge your own views and evolve. I wish I was not indoctrinated into eating animal products, but I was and when I gained enough knowledge to overcome my ignorance...I evolved. I feel you will come to this view on sexuality, Then you should read this entire thread again and I think you may have a different perspective. cheers
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 1, 2011 at 9:55am
So some people are cutting back on having kids. That's good to hear. Still, I don't see how that makes heterosexuality better than homosexuality. Having NO kids will still lower the population more than having one.
(I've actually had someone say to me "but if everyone went gay/decided to stop having kids humanity would go extinct" but while we have 7 billion this is just NOT a valid argument at all. It's not going to happen, or by the time we noticed we were endangered, we'd have some kids.)
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Permalink Reply by Dogly on December 1, 2011 at 10:15am
"but if everyone went gay/decided to stop having kids humanity would go extinct"
Hip, hip, hooray! Let's all be gay!
It's a better solution than my idea of putting a sterilizing agent in the drinking water supply.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 1, 2011 at 9:50am
Madhukar, you brought up the "straight people are superior because they can have babies" argument.
Heterosexual sex is just as recreation-centered as homosexual, but it happens to result in babies. I will be impressed by the sacred act of heterosexual reproduction if our population ever gets down to 1000 or so, the way other animals' populations are being massacred because of human overpopulation. Until then, I'm not going to be in awe of the heterosexual ability to make babies.
Not every person who has reproduced is heterosexual. Bisexuals and homosexuals can both get pregnant and get others pregnant. It's just that with homosexuals they specifically choose to create life rather than do it by accident.
You are also mentioning "disgusting things that gays do". I don't see the point of this other than to demonize people, or to say that it's OK to be prejudiced because of statistics. Which means picturing all the things you think someone is doing because they're gay. I already brought up "eww" as a non-religious reason that people are anti-gay. You can be grossed out all you want but it still is morally neutral.
What is the point of commenting on the life expectancy of gays? Or the length of marriage? Should we analyze various groups likelihood of staying married, and deny them the right to marriage because they are statistically likely to get divorced? If that's the case we should not allow celebrities to marry. I've mostly seen evidence of very long-term gay relationships that were not legally recognized.
Everyone has a rectum, therefore everyone can do the things you mentioned (ever look at porn? A lot of guys are fixated on doing that to their girlfriend.) And "oral sex"? Really? You don't think straight people do that? (Once again, check out porn.) I feel sorry for anyone whose partner won't do it.
I think that some people's sexual orientations can gradually change either way in the course of a lifetime, but it can't be forced. Sexual orientation is taste in people, and tastes can change but you can't force yourself to like or dislike something. It's only religious organizations that have claimed homosexuality can be cured or changed. Many of the religious leaders who claimed this were then caught in gay scandals. So NO, homosexuality can't be cured.
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Permalink Reply by Tenken on November 29, 2011 at 9:28am
If homosexuality can be treated medically, is it not a ‘disorder’?
It's interesting that you asked this question in the same post as making this statement:
As far as I am aware, the medical science says that homosexuality is neither a medical nor psycological disorder...
According to the belief that sexual orientation can be changed through conditioning, you can assign an "illness" label to exclusive homosexuality and maybe "treat" it into bisexuality, or even exclusive heterosexuality. But the same is also true of the opposite. You can determine that exclusive heterosexuality is an "illness" and "treat" it through conditioning as well. The impermanence of sexual orientation is not evidence that it is a disorder.
Reproductive ability is one important reason for evolution and life forms on this planet have been endowed with this natural ability.
So argue against exclusive homosexuality. Non-exclusive homosexual attraction is not a threat in this case. Bisexuality should be completely acceptable. Also, we were not "endowed" with natural abilities. That's a religious phrase.
Homosexuality completely ignores this noble human emotion and is centered around questionable pleasure.
What makes this pleasure "questionable"?
If animal pleasure can be given so much importance, why not legalise extra-marital relations? Or, remove the institution of marriage from our social system?
I really don't follow your logic here. So it's not about homosexuality; it's about pleasure? You feel that, no matter the sex dynamics of a relationship, sex should not be for pleasure? Also, I can almost guarantee that all of us support legalization of extra-martial relations. Personally, I consider it an abuse of the people to attempt to outlaw that.
As far as removing marriage from the social system, I think it can be done. A lot will have to change, since (at least in the U.S.) so much relies on marriage to determine rights and privileges and exemptions (taxes, custody, insurance, hospital visitation, etc). I don't think supporting homosexuality has anything to do with that though.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Tara Benson on November 30, 2011 at 7:42pm
Homosexuality is not a "disorder" any more than being left-handed.
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Permalink Reply by Tenken on December 1, 2011 at 8:53am
Your third paragraph is complete nonsense. How is it that anyone would support gay rights, but expect gays to stop engaging in gay behavior in accordance with a social moral code? It makes no sense. "I believe you should have this right, but I'm only going to support it if you agree to stop exercising it."
Your inconsistency is so great that I truly suspect intense prejudice as the source of your efforts to find fault in homosexuality.
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Permalink Reply by Dogly on November 28, 2011 at 10:14am
Madhukar, I'm sure that after reading so many of these forums, you have noticed that we atheists do not agree on much except holding the strong opinion that there are no gods. Still, the reason that most people reject homosexuals as equal, honorable people, is that god told them to, or gave them an excuse to. We do not share that excuse to practice acts of bigotry toward homosexuals. We therefore must find non-theological reasons to hate, fear, or scorn them. Since what other people do sexually is really none of our business, and does others no harm at all, what reasons are there?
Also atheists have felt the sting of prejudice. Compassionate individuals do not wish to cause pain to others. We may stand up for their rights out of empathy for their bad treatment. Most atheists, who I know, put a high value on fairness and justice. That is reason enough to treat homosexuals with dignity.
As to your question, "Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?" I, personally, do not support any behavior that causes pain, or harm to others. It doesn't matter what the sexual orientation of the person is.
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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 29, 2011 at 1:55am
Your compassionate reply makes me think more compared to all other replies. I am reviewing all the discussion elsewhere and you wll find that what you say will find strong weightage.
MADHUKAR KULKARNI.
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Permalink Reply by Dogly on November 28, 2011 at 10:38am
I think that this discussion might increase our understanding of why it is so difficult to convince believers that there is no factual basis for their belief. They have eagerly given up their will. Not only their ability to reason, but their will to do so. Following the leader removes all responsibility for their ideas and their actions. They don't need to plan. The leader thinks for them. he tells them what to do. When we engage them in rational discussion, we are forcing them to think. They HATE that!
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Permalink Reply by Pat on November 28, 2011 at 12:19pm
I don't support homosexuality. Then again, I don't support heterosexuality. And, I don't support bisexuality. And the reason I don't? Because it's none of my damn business who you are or how you define yourself. I've got a hard enough time leading my own life without worrying about what two or more consenting adults are doing across the country, in the bordering state, or next door. I do, however, support equal rights under the law for all people. If you're a man who likes to have sex with women, good for you. If you're a woman who likes to have sex with women, good for you. If you're either a man or a woman who likes to have sex with both males and females, good for you. And, if you fall in love with a person of the same or opposite sex, I sincerely wish you the life that brings you the greatest joy and most happiness.
The only thing I ask of my fellow primates is to do your best to treat everyone else with decency and respect. Mow your yard, pay your taxes, rotate your tires, and be a good neighbor. I'll do my best to reciprocate.
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Permalink Reply by Ted E Bear on November 29, 2011 at 12:59am
Mind you, there is a difference and a reason for a need to support. People are not killed for being straight, there is no group out there, worth millions of dollars, trying to end straight marriage, and 40% of homeless youth in Utah are not out on the street because they are straight.
So a little bit more effort than simply "going about your day" will be needed by society to overcome it.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on November 28, 2011 at 10:00pm
I'll try to be sensitive here to the cultural differences and to a possible language difference. But.... There are many places, and many people, who discriminate against and persecute LGBT people. Such activities are against human rights. There is no objective reason that people of the same gender should not fall in love and marry. As for whether society, or culture, has the right to write laws that persecute LGBT people, I would say no. A culture that imposes punishments on people for being LGBT is a backward, nonhumanist culture.
I don't know whether the caste system was religious or cultural. I suspect both. And I would regard the caste system as immoral and backward. I would say the same about purdah and sati. These customs are culturally propagated, whether they are part of religion or not. If it's OK for society to persecute LGBT people, because those rules are cultural, then purdah, thecaste system, sati are also OK. And they are not.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApe on November 29, 2011 at 5:50am
I think its simple
" what reason do you have not to support it ? "
I support anyone in thier endeavour to find mutual love in almost all circumstances that I can think of.
The religious have a reason " GOD SAYS ITS WRONG !!" or words to that effect depending on the religion. Even though on occasion it appears full ok in the bible.
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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 29, 2011 at 6:15am
Reply by David Raphael
Where on earth do you get the idea that homosexuality is a disorder?
Reply by dr kellie
Your assertation that homosexuality is a disorder is bullshit.
As far as I am aware, the medical science says that
homosexuality is neither a medical nor psycological disorder but does not say
what exactly it is. If I do not agree with religion on what it says about god,
I do my own thinking. That is was I do on this subject too, until science comes
up with a firm diagnosis.
“The language used by DNA is
called the genetic code, which lets organisms read the information in the genes.
This information is the instructions for constructing and operating a living
organism.”
“Genes
contain all the information an organism uses to function”
Gens are what decide how a man behaves.
“Genetics
("genitive" and genesis, "origin"), a discipline of biology, is
the science of genes, heredity,
and variation in living organisms.
During the process of DNA replication,
errors occasionally occur in the polymerization of the second strand.”
The third view is "biological" and holds that
such desires are genetic or hormonal in origin, and that there is no choice
involved and no "childhood trauma" necessary.
Genetics tells us bout the ‘variations’ in living
organisms. Errors likewise occur during
DNA replication. I am extremely sorry if my choice of the word ‘disorder’ is
causing so much anguish, but I hope eventually you will all realize what I am
driving at and will then pardon me for this. The ‘biological’ view has existed,
though not proven and so is not just my imagination.
“Since what other people do
sexually is really none of our business, and does others no harm at all, what
reasons are there?”
Reproductive ability is one important reason for evolution
and life forms on this planet have been endowed with this natural ability.
Intelligent man has further attached great emotions with this ability. The
family system is created and sustained because of desire for orderly reproduction.
Homosexuality completely ignores this noble human emotion and is centered
around questionable pleasure. If animal
pleasure can be given so much importance, why not legalise extra-marital
relations? Or, remove the institution of marriage from our social system?
“I would still support that
homosexuals have the same rights as anybody else, that would include marriage.”
“In Denmark, a form of homosexual marriage has been legal
since 1989. Through 1995, less than 5% of Danish homosexuals had gotten married,
and 28% of these marriages had already ended in divorce or death.”
Marriage need not be considered a fundamental right.
However, what would be the purpose of homosexual marriage? Almost all of us
ordinary folks do marry. With legalized homosexual marriage, do all homosexuals
want to marry? How long their marriages last?
◾
Can homosexuality be changed?
◾
Certainly. As noted above, many people have
turned away from homosexuality - almost as many people call themselves
"gay."
Physicians who understand current scientific views of
homosexuality are in a position to provide excellent care to gay and lesbian
patients and to provide a model of leadership in their communities and
hospitals regarding issues of homosexuality.
If homosexuality can be treated medically, is it not a ‘disorder’?
And if a person can abandon these practices, why not expect him to do so?
“The typical sexual practices of homosexuals are a
medical horror story:
Their sex practices include:
ORAL SEX
RECTAL SEX
“The median age of death for homosexuals,
however, was virtually the same nationwide--and, overall, less than 2% survived
to old age.”
“In 1993, a study(9) of 428 gays in San Francisco found
that only 14% reported just a single sexual partner in the previous year. The
vast majority had multiple sex partners.
“In 1994, the largest national gay magazine'° reported
that only 17% of its sample of 2,500 gays claimed to live together in a
monogamous relationship. “
We do concern ourselves with society’s health.
Reply by Sentient Biped
I'll try to be sensitive here to the cultural differences
and to a possible language difference.
"I don't know whether the caste system was religious or
cultural. I suspect both. And I would regard the caste system as immoral and
backward. I would say the same about purdah and sati. These customs are
culturally propagated, whether they are part of religion or not. If it's OK for
society to persecute LGBT people, because those rules are cultural, then purdah, the caste system, sati are also OK. And they are not."
I have made every effort to exclude any cultural effect and
base all my thoughts on plain logic. You have mentioned some wrong social
practices. Forget the ‘prdah’. Its futile to talk about muslims, but Hindu
society did realize its errors and they largely stand corrected. A little more
time, and they will go away. What is more, the liberal thought that arrived
here through the British has also played some part in the reformation. Why not
learn something from us now?
I must once again state emphatically that I have no desire
of offending anyone, in fact any discussion on social reform can never be with
that intent. Still, I once again sincerely apologise if what I have said has
offended anybody.
MADHUKAR KULKARNI.
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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 29, 2011 at 12:50pm
"Almost all of us ordinary folks do marry."
Your bigotry is showing. Sexual preferences do not define how "ordinary" a person is, or even whether they wish to marry.
"Their sex practices include:
"ORAL SEX
"RECTAL SEX"
Dude, all I can assume is you're a virgin, if you have no idea that all people (yes, even straights!!1!) have sex this way.
"What would be the purpose of homosexual marriage?"
The exact same as any other marriage. People get married for tax breaks, for foreign residency, for inheritance, for raising children, for being in love, for simply getting people to stop telling them they're going to hell for living together, and on and on and on. What do I have to say to get it through your head? WE'RE JUST LIKE YOU, BECAUSE WE'RE AS HUMAN AS YOU ARE.
IF I have to believe you, I am a bigot if I have not indulged in oral and rectal sex. I am not a virgin, which is well appreciated by people who know me. However, if you wish to call me a bigot, so be it. I seem to be speaking a language quite foreign to most of you, but I wish to say that when westerners commented on the social matters not acceptable to them we reacted in a far more positive manner. I accept all criticism and all adjectives you all want to attach to me, but I would still hold that if homosexuality can find cures, then it is desirable to do so.
MADHUKAR KULKARNI.
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on November 29, 2011 at 1:09pm
And, hey...what about hand jobs? I love a good hand job:)
I know the point/points you are making, Nerd, and, as usual, I agree. On the other hand, I don't ever want to be ordinary. I prefer extraordinary.
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by FreeThinker on November 27, 2011 at 1:57pm
I support the right of people to do whatever they wish, so long as it does not harm others. What homosexuals do in the bedroom is of no consequence to me. Further, I don't see how homosexuals getting married in any way harms others or goes against the "sanctity" of marriage. I find it hypocrital when religious people who've committed adultery or gotten divorced complain that homosexual marriage offends the sanctity of marriage.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on November 27, 2011 at 7:44pm
It's possible to find anti-gay atheists. They exist, and some are vocal. And like most straight people in the world, most gay people are not atheists. But atheists who have a humanistic point of view usually support LGBT people in having the same rights that everyone else has; usually resist persecution; usually support having people have fulfillment in their lives; usually are for truth and the search for truth, and against the lies that are told by dishonest religious people and bigots about LGBT people. Supporting the rights of LGBT people is not a requirement for atheism, but it is a necessary part of humanism. Because all people, not just heterosexual people, are human.
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Permalink Reply by Steph S. on November 27, 2011 at 7:51pm
And that's why I'm a humanist. I support the civil rights of others.
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Permalink Reply by Ted E Bear on November 29, 2011 at 1:05am
Well that, and I'm sure there are a more than few theist trolls on atheist nexus, trying to be subtle.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 2, 2011 at 8:13pm
I've come across two. And they might have been the same person.
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Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 28, 2011 at 9:28am
As I am seeing it, the support to homosexuality seems actually the support for the rights of homosexuals. This is ok, but I presume that all the rights that we common people enjoy must be guaranteed to all homosexuals too. I can not imagine any legislation that goes against this. Do the atheists support them for more special rights? For example, the right for gay marriages? Can this be said to be a fundamental right?
I hope that no one will disagree with me that homosexuality is caused by a genetic disorder that occurs naturally, involuntarily. The siamese twins are also born because of such a disorder. Blindness, deafness, muteness at birth are other examples of such a disorder. Human beings and the medical sciences strive to cure all disorders. A child suffering from polio has to make considerable effort on his own, despite his young age, to be rid of polio. Do we expect the homosexuals do such efforts to come out of their nature given disorder?
Sexuality has always been associated with morality and even today it is so. Blindness and such other disorders are not associated with morality. When we, as atheists, support the homosexuals for their rights, do we expect some efforts from them for a mutually agreed code of morality? PL. NOTE THAT I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A RELIGIOUSLY AGREED CODE. If nothing of this sort is expected, then ,it can be said that we atheists do not recognise the need for associating any code of morality with homosexuality, despite homosexuality being a sexual practice? In India, any display of sexual passion is not considered to be a moral conduct. This is not religion, this is social order. Should the homosexuals be guided by some moral code, that may be acceptable to the society they live in? Let me stop here for the present and not burden my fellow thinker's minds more presently.
Comments please.
MADHUKAR KULKARNI.
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Permalink Reply by David Raphael on November 28, 2011 at 9:37am
Where on earth do you get the idea that homosexuality is a disorder?
1952. The American Psychiatric Association Study. "That study and subsequent research consistently failed to produce any empirical or scientific basis for regarding homosexuality as a disorder or abnormality"
"The longstanding consensus of research and clinical literature demonstrates that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality."
"There is now a large body of research evidence that indicates that being gay, lesbian or bisexual is compatible with normal mental health and social adjustment."
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Permalink Reply by Rob van Senten on November 28, 2011 at 9:47am
"I hope that no one will disagree with me that homosexuality is caused by a genetic disorder that occurs naturally, involuntarily."
As far as I know the jury is still out on whether this is genetically or environmentally caused by for instance the hormones of the mother while the unborn child is developing in the womb. Even it it turned out to be that homosexuality is in fact a choice it would not change anything for me, I would still support that homosexuals have the same rights as anybody else, that would include marriage.
What people do in their own lives and in their own time is none of my business. My opinions are not meant to be (moral) guidelines for other people, and neither do I think that what offends me or shocks me should be a reason for banning anything.
Simply said, if I see to gay guys kissing in the street, bus, bar or whatever I really don't care. Neither do I care if heterosexual couples engage in the same behavior. If they invade my personal space and it bothers me, I will tell them in a polite manner, I mean, what's so special about gays that I need to treat them differently?
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Permalink Reply by dr kellie on November 28, 2011 at 12:01pm
Your assertation that homosexuality is a disorder is bullshit. You make it sound like a handicap. There is nothing disorderly about the fact that I like to fuck women.
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Permalink Reply by Ted E Bear on November 29, 2011 at 12:52am
I 100 percent disagree, it's not a disorder by any means. And you know, as far I'm concerned, anybody who would call it a handicapp is just plain ignorant, considering almost every reputable psychological and biological organization claims its to be a perfectly normal part of biology, found in countless species.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 1, 2011 at 9:27am
It's only a disorder if it's a negative thing.
The only reason it is a handicap is because of other people's prejudices. And, OK, it's harder to find another compatible person who also likes the same sex.
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Permalink Reply by Tenken on November 29, 2011 at 10:30am
I hope that no one will disagree with me that homosexuality is caused by a genetic disorder that occurs naturally, involuntarily.
I disagree... You are confusing disorder with abnormality. A person may have a genetic abnormality causing them to be taller than normal, but this doesn't necessarily imply a disorder. Also, you have said yourself that biological causes for homosexuality are unproved. How can a person be so inconsistent within one discussion?
The siamese twins are also born because of such a disorder. Blindness, deafness, muteness at birth are other examples of such a disorder. ...Do we expect the homosexuals do such efforts to come out of their nature given disorder?
Physiological disorders are significantly different to behavioral disorders. A behavioral disorder as of now is culturally-determined, because behavior patterns that may cause dysfunction in one culture may be celebrated in another. Strong religious conviction is an example, especially if it requires holidays or other special privileges.
Sexuality has always been associated with morality and even today it is so. Blindness and such other disorders are not associated with morality.
Again, this is a dissimilar comparison between a physiological disorder and a behavior pattern. All morality deals with behavior and not physical attributes. Next, at least in the U.S., mental disorders are theoretically supposed to be independent of morality (and other "conflicts with society"). An immoral behavior pattern is not necessarily a disorder. Finally, without getting into a deeper conversation about the purpose and cause of morality, why do you believe sexuality should continue to be associated with morality? That's the important question. Right now, your "social order" is abusive and harmful. Would this be acceptable in any other case? When else would you appeal to tradition and argue that harmful practices should continue because they have always been that way?
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DO ATHEISTS SUPPORT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Posted by Madhukar Kulkarni on November 27, 2011 at 4:04am in Water Cooler
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I have noticed atheists coming out in support of homosexuals. Do some feel that supporting homosexuality is a necessary part of atheism ? Or, do they support homosexuality simply because religion opposes it? What is the attitude of atheists in general to homosexuality? Where homosexuality deserves support and where it should not be supported?
MADHUKAR KULKARNI
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Permalink Reply by Ted E Bear on November 27, 2011 at 7:09am
Organized atheists, at least as a community, tend to support a rational and fair world. One cannot support a rational fair world unless you support the same rights for all people. So unless they are hypocritical bigots, still awash in their religious delusions on a social level, they will support all the same rights for gay people.
I believe the last record I found showed about 85% to 90% of the atheist community support equal rights for gays, which is pretty good, but I'm unable to find it again online, so don't quote me. Keep in mind, just because somebody has become an atheist, it does not mean they have completely moved past the religious social construct, which often pushed inequality.
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Permalink Reply by John Loq on November 27, 2011 at 10:32am
There is no need to support gay people. I am gay. Just don't support religious disvremination against me.
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Permalink Reply by Ted E Bear on November 29, 2011 at 1:02am
Well like I said in another section of this post, yes, support is needed. Simply going about your day does not help the issues of inequality. You might not need support, but many people in less fortunate living situations do.
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Permalink Reply by James M. Martin on December 1, 2011 at 5:20pm
Lovely answer John Log. Have you noticed how misogynistic most homophobes are? How likely to be socially conservative; that is, there must be some direct correlation between the degree of religious fundamentalism and attitude toward homosexuality, sexual equality, acceptance of the science of neurobiology, &c. The Fox blonde bund, for example, people like Laura Ingraham, who sports the biggest gold cross dangling from a big gold chain each time she appears, no matter what she wears, is such an obvious homophobe and anti-choice advocate. And she's very mean-spirited about it. That skinny dirty leg whore, Ann Coulter, said of a presidential candidate, he was a "fag" (though it later developed that if anything he was a serial womanizer). The only word that fits such individuals is "Bigot."
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on December 3, 2011 at 8:42am
I feel the same John. Discrimination is wrong. Other than that I don't need everyone's approval. That would imply their opinion matters.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on November 27, 2011 at 7:14am
I have a very personal reason for supporting homosexuality: I am bisexual. Beyond that, a commonality I see among many if not most atheists is of an appreciation for equal rights and equity in law. I would not be at all surprised to discover that atheists supported the Civil Rights movement of the 1950's and 60's. There is also considerable evidence for atheist support of the rights of the GLBT community on this site and elsewhere. Whatever side the church has come down on is less operant to me than the issue of RIGHTS and their free exercise.
The fact of atheism does not presuppose an automatic agreement on these other issues. I suspect the critical thought which has given rise to the atheist viewpoint, applied to these other issues, is where this seeming coincidence comes from.
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Permalink Reply by Sandi on November 27, 2011 at 7:26am
I think that it is simply that religious people oppose homosexuality for no good reason other than their god thinks that it is wrong, most theists don't even understand or want to understand the concept. I don't see that we 'support' homosexuality rather than not find it an 'abomination'. Atheists have more tolerance because we are not bound by religious law and ignorance.
I love my freedom.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApess on December 2, 2011 at 11:47pm
love your work sandi.
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Permalink Reply by Tara Benson on November 27, 2011 at 8:02am
Homosexuality is as normal as heterosexuality. Religious people have dogma that sets various rules for sex that have more to do with social control than with nature. They blindly follow these rules with no regard for the harm to individuals or society. Atheists can see past dogma and recognize scientific facts, which is why they generally support equality for gay people. There's really no reason/circumstance in which equal rights for gay people shouldn't be supported.
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Permalink Reply by Goz on November 27, 2011 at 8:21am
Sure it is...You summed it up very well Tara.
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Permalink Reply by VeganApess on December 2, 2011 at 11:48pm
Various rules and some.
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Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on November 27, 2011 at 9:16am
I wouldn't phrase it as "supporting" homosexuality. It's more supporting the rights of gays, or the rights of consenting adults to have whatever relationships they want.
Other than religious reasons, the only other objection to homosexuality is some people are grossed out by it. But "gross" is too often mistaken for "immoral" when lots of gross things are not immoral. If you are grossed out by people of the same sex being sexy, then avert your eyes. I don't think of that as homophobic.
Any argument that it is "unnatural" is untrue. It occurs in nature in many species. Homophobia only occurs among humans. Humans do lots of other truly unnatural things like plastic surgery and using computers.
And a few have said that only heterosexuality creates babies, but this would only be an impressive thing if humans were underpopulated.
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