A response from me in regards to comments that were made by a possble JW on JWSurvey.org

  joe says:
 September 22, 2014 at 1:05 am
 What a hater. Who cares if they had bible shaped pools. And who cares if that’s not how you think they should be spending their money. My dad thinks video games are a massive waste of money. I don’t agree with him. How many people go to fake plastic Disney land for $100 a day now. I think that’s a waste of money. What about comicon or star trek conventions? You must think you are the smartest person alive to think every single person at these conventions are idiots. How arrogant.
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  joe says:
 September 22, 2014 at 1:25 am
 Do you know what the WTBTS spends its money on? I was just wondering. Last I saw was those old men eating every day with the rest of their oh so easily brainwashed converts. I even saw one of those old men who tricks all of these mentally incapable persons, separating hangers in the watchtower laundry sitting in the corner with a paper food service hat on. But I know they secretly fly off in their private jets to their opulent penthouses and estates that they bought with all of their donation money. They MUST be whooping it up living the good life. Oh yeah the US government must be in on it too since real estate records are public access, we would know where the governing body members secret mansions are but they are nowhere to be found. My god they have simple rooms at bethel but I heard they really have underground lairs made out of pure gold where they count each and every donated penny those sick old men. Down with the Org!!!!!!!!!!!
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  joe says:
 September 22, 2014 at 1:27 am
 Well apparently they need to be woken up. They are to simple to realize they are being conned right? Seems to be the gist of it
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  joe says:
 September 22, 2014 at 1:42 am
 But its OK for YOU to attack the beliefs of all of these people? You really want to take away the one thing that means so much to many of these people because you feel it is not right? Because your dad is shunning you? Isn’t that his choice as sucky as it is? What if I succeeded in getting Disneyland shut down because I absolutely dislike their horrible TV shows, would that be fair? My nephews and nieces only want to go there and they love it. I would rather go snowboarding and I feel Disneyland is disgusting but that doesn’t make me right. People have free will to believe what they want and live how they live. How arrogant of you to spend all of your time tearing down something millions of ‘deluded’ obviously love. You don’t like their brand of Christianity, then move on. You think they are doing potentially dangerous things, that’s their choice. They only thing the government should intervene in on is blood transfusion, but its funny how many cutting edge hospitals are opting for bloodless procedures.
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  joe says:
 September 22, 2014 at 1:58 am
 You can think of much better ways to have fun….wow. These poor people just need you to fill the giant funless void in their stupid little lives. If you had your way you would probably force everyone to live how you do. Incredible the arrogance.
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  joe says:
 September 22, 2014 at 2:24 am
 OK, you’ve misunderstood me. I’m not concerned if anyone believes if the witness faith is true or not. Everyone is entitled to their own belief. I wasn’t even trying to come to your site to begin with. The majority of my family are catholic and Mormon. I also have a lot of friends who are Buddhist and even atheist. I respect your belief or non belief. I just find it incredible that a person such as yourself, who looks like a tolerant person can so passionately seek the demise of an organization that means so much to many people. I don’t agree with most of the things Mormons and catholics do but I wouldnt spend my time trying to force others to do what I think is right. Besides, you won’t succeed anyway. Maybe make yourself look more presentable and take your video in front of a solid clean wall instead of looking like a vagrant in front of some beat up brick and mortar wall and screen door. How is anyone to take you seriously. If you are dead set on doing this then at least look presentable or the people with clout that you really want to help you may be turned off by your appearance.
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  joe says:
 September 22, 2014 at 2:48 am
 Now you look silly. I’m not trying to prove the witness faith right. You fingers are in your ears maybe because you know that everyone has a right to believe what they want yet you are so bitter that you want the demise of this horrible cult. You arrogantly assert that all of these people are to stupid to realize the danger they are in and so need to be woken up. I guess I am just a naive construction engineer. I don’t know but its funny though, that a few old white men can keep 8 million people around the world on the same page studying the same watchtower with all of its lies and changes and contradictions with that sorcery of theirs. And as much as you would like to tell your blog readers that more and more witnesses are leaving, there are also way more witnesses now than when I was a kid 35 years ago. And yes I do enjoy video games and star trek
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http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/bible-shaped-baptism-pools-take-center-stage-at-the-south-korea-international-convention#comments






Joe,


Well, good for you Joe if you consider yourself as being respectful of people having different beliefs from you, even if you may not agree with your loved one's views. Sure, there are more JW's now than there probably were when you were a child.  I don't know how many JW's are either disfellowshipped from or chose to leave each year.  I do know that studies, like the Pew Research Forum have indicated that the JW's have a 37% retention rate.  I guess that I would be included amongst the 63% who were raised in the Organization, either from birth or whose parents or other legal guardian joined the Organization when that person was at a very young age who are excommunicated or voluntarily resign their membership from the WBTS.  Yes, 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses are on the same page regarding their beliefs and practices, studying the same magazines and other forms of literature. Why? Well they are required to abide by the same beliefs and practices if they want to remain members of the denomination. If you stray from those beliefs and practices, not only are you removed from membership which is their right, but you also risk the possible permanent loss of  your relationship with any family members, relatives or friends who continue to be JW's.


  Well, I don't know if your nieces and nephews are JW's or not, but I think that going to Disneyland would be discouraged.  My mother wouldn't have wanted me watching anything made by Disney that had "magic" in it.  More hospitals may choose to include bloodless surgeries as an option, but does that mean they are abandoning the blood transfusion procedure altogether, I doubt it. Your father thinks video games are a waste of money and you don't, but would those video games be acceptable to play in accordance with  JW's doctrines?  I think that videos games are somewhat looked down upon. Now if the Governing Body or your the elder's of your kingdom hall thought you shouldn't play them at all, would you stop, even if the Society thought it was okay to play video games, as long as they thought that those video games didn't violate the rules that they formulate based on their interpretation of the Bible that you must follow if you want to continue being a JW? 




What if the Society didn't want to you play video games and all, and thought of some punishment that they believe would be supported by applying "biblical principles" for playing video games, an activity that they don't believe Yahweh/Jehovah approves of for whatever reason that they might think that Yahweh/Jehovah would have for liking such activities, would you then permanently stop playing video games?  If this happened to be the case, why would you stop playing videos games?  Would it be because you sincerely believe that Yahweh thinks that such video games are wrong according to the Society's interpretation of the Bible and because you don't want to be disfellowshipped/excommunicated and shunned by the JW's, if you don't feel sincere remorse for such an activity and don't want to risk the idea of being annihilated at Armageddon and remaining dead for all of eternity for being an "unrepentant sinner", and missing the idea of living on an "earthly paradise" forever?


"Star Trek" might be okay to watch, I don't know.  You like snowboarding and think Disneyland is "disgusting", it is a trip that you think would be a "waste of money". Well you don't have to go to Disneyland if you don't want to, I don't think any "divine wrath" awaits you if you chose not to go there, if are a practicing JW that is.  I'm sure according to the JW's interpretation of the scriptures, Yahweh would be pretty happy with such a decision. I'm not fond of most of today's television shows in Disney Channel either.  A JW child for instance couldn't watch Disney movies or shows with magical themes, even if they wanted to because they are told that Yahweh/ Jehovah "hates" magic, and if you do something that displeases Yahweh/Jehovah which is considered to be a "sin", and you do not ask Yahweh/Jehovah for forgiveness for committing such a "sin", then you risk the idea of Yahweh/ Jehovah having his heavenly army annihilate you at Armageddon.






A parent or legal guardian has the right to decide what programs their child or children can watch, but is it necessary for a well-meaning parent or legal guardian who are sincerely doing what they believe is right, to tell or at least imply to a child that they risk the possibility of eternal death by annihilation just for viewing a program that has magical themes in it and not asking for forgiveness from the deity that they worship, because their denomination's literal interpretation of a religious text indicates that their deity hates magic?  Should teaching your child such beliefs be illegal. I don't think so, but does that make it perfectly fine to tell or imply to a child that the idea of eternal death by divine annihilation is something that might happen to them okay?   I have been involved with the JW's for years, but If I am correct if you were to watch a Disney program that has magic in it, doing an activity that involves magic, that would be seen as the JW's as a "sin",  if you didn't ask for forgiveness for such a "sin", then according to JW theology, you risk being annihilated at Armageddon.  I'm pretty sure that the Governing Body and the JW's who accept the Organization's doctrines whole-heartedly would agree with that idea.


  Would you not have any problem at all if a Southern Baptist were to tell or imply to their child that they will burn in hell for all of eternity for doing something that they think Yahweh wouldn't improve of?  Sure, we would both agree that they have the right to say that to a child, but would you still think that is okay thing to tell a child, especially if the child ends up worrying that such a fate awaits in fact does await them if they don't ask Yahweh for forgiveness? I would ask the same question in regards to the same scenario if a child being raised as a JW worries over facing eternal death by annihilation if they do something that is considered as being a "sin" and are show no remorse about it according to the Organization's interpretation of the Bible.






 I wouldn't say that the Governing Body doesn't make sure that workers at the American Bethel don't have put in the stomachs and maybe you did see one of those men separate the laundry hangers while wearing a paper food service hat. Yes, the Governing Body may eat a meal with their "easily-brainwashed" converts everyday, but so what?  The JW's criticize other religious groups, just like other religious groups criticize them.  People have that right to criticize whomever they want, for whatever reason they want. The JW's do try to convince people to live by their denomination's interpretation of the Bible, which non-doubting members sincerely believe is the "truth" and the "one and only path to everlasting life", but they aren't going to force people to convert to the JWs against their will. I agree that Lloyd Evans ("John Cedars") ' dad has the right to shun his son, that is his choice. He chooses to have nothing to do with Lloyd just because his son no longer shares the same religious beliefs as him, but does that make his choice perfectly "logical", "reasonable" or "justifiable"? Why couldn't you obey the rules of your religion and still maintain a relationship with someone who no longer shares your views? Couldn't you obey your religion's rules and maintain a relationship with a loved one who is a former member without "sharing" in what you think is their "sin"?  JW converts risk loosing their relationship with their loved ones over their new found beliefs, but does that make it okay to for non-JW's to stop talking to their loved one just because they don't agree with the religion that their loved one chose to embrace?




   Now, if a doubting JW decided to convert to another religion that they came to sincerely believe had the "real truth" and thought that JW's were "wrong", such a person may not be able to maintain as the same sort of loving relationship with JW family members or relatives whom they might only be allowed to see under certain conditions, perhaps only in the case of an emergency. Such a person could not in any way not retain their friendship with any JWs from the Kingdom Hall that they had once attended, despite their disagreements over religion. 






I don't think that Lloyd wants more people to leave the JW's simply because he wants to be a jerk by taking something that means so much to other people. If people are making "potentially dangerous choices" that hurt themselves, that is on them, I agree, but if a person chose to make a different decision, other than the "potentially dangerous choice", should they be shunned for making another decision?  Perhaps you aren't trying to the prove that the Witnesses beliefs are "true" and are not interested if other people accept the JW's claims are not. That is fine.  I don't think that Lloyd is saying that the JW's need to do this his ways to have fun.  I don't think that he wants to force people to live the way that he does. You wouldn't spend all of your time forcing other people to do what you think is right, that's fine.  You said that Lloyd "won't succeed anyway", just before you make that statement on his physical appearance.  You think it is "arrogant" for Lloyd to criticize something that millions of people love.  You said you that you believe that the only thing that the government should interfere on is with blood transfusions.  So are you saying that you disagree with the JW's views on blood transfusions?  Well if you are a practicing JW who doesn't have doubts about your religious beliefs, then wouldn't you be going against the Society's doctrines, which would probably result in you being put forth before a Judicial Committee if such a view were known to the elders of your congregation?




Yes, people have the right to believe what they want to believe and live how they want to live as long as they aren't hurting others, but it doesn't mean that people cannot objectively examine or openly criticize the religious beliefs and practices of other people.  The JW's do it, so what?  You can criticize the JW's back, if you must. If you don't like that Lloyd views the JW's as clinging to the "sorcery" of several men and their doctrines of "lies, changes and contradictions",  then why not go and visit another website? I don't think that Lloyd is saying that the JW's need to "wake up" because they are "too stupid" or "simple" to realize that they are doing things that might put them in "danger".  I tend to think that he believes that JW's tend not to seriously question their beliefs once they are baptized and that they tend to make for what he believes are irrational decisions that he feels has serious consequences. He cannot make a JW doubt, question or leave their particular Christian denomination.   You say that if he doesn't like the JW's brand of Christianity, then he should move on.  I'm guessing from your posts that it bothers you that he wants to see the JW's die out.  I think that the JW's believe and even want all non-JW religious groups to die out, if you are a practicing JW, aren't you supposed to share that belief?  The JW's shouldn't be exempt from criticism anymore than I should be. The JW's aren't special and I am not that special either.




You say that you may be "a naïve construction engineer" who wasn't trying to go on " JW Survey" website in the first place, really?  Did someone force you to go on that website. Did you click on the website by accident not knowing that it was run by an ex-JW, well if so, that is an honest mistake I suppose.  The WBTS can spend their money however they like.  If the money that is used for funding  conventions makes their baptismal pools look flashy, then wouldn't it be hypocritical for the JW's to do something that they condemn other religious groups for doing, by making events look "flashy", that is what I think that Lloyd is saying.  I think that you may be aware of that idea too.


  I think that Lloyd looks like a tolerant person too, I agree with you.  I think that he is tolerant, to a certain extent, just like you probably are tolerant to a certain extent.  I don't think that he calling all JW's "idiots", but I do think he believes that they are being "conned" and "deluded" by believing something that he thinks may possibly not be true.  I don't think he thinks that the JW's are "mentally-incapable" of making their own decisions, I think that Lloyd believes that if this people should ever decide that they can no longer agree with their religious community over an issue, that they will face a consequence that he feels is unfair as a result of their disagreement regardless of how polite they are about their disagreement.    I don't think that he believes that he is the "smartest person alive".  Nobody is.


You feel that Lloyd should "look more presentable" and record his video in from of a "solid, clean wall instead of looking like a 'vagrant' in front of some beat-up brick wall and screen door", or how else can anyone take him seriously.  You think that he should look "presentable" or people with clout might be turned off by his appearance.  I didn't watch that video, but if he does his video outside, so what? Lots of people post videos on YouTube that they have recorded outside.  I may not always care for Lloyd's physical appearance either, but it is not my place to tell him how to dress.  He's an adult and has the right to dress however he wants as long as he isn't hurting me, even if I don't like it.  I'm not going to not listen to what he has to say, just from his physical appearance.  I may be wrong, but sounds to me sir that you may possibly make remarks, not only because you genuinely don't like his looks, but because he criticized your religion, it seems that you might be looking for some remark that you think puts you on equal footing with him.








If you still are a JW, then sir, you should know better than to respond to articles on apostate websites, which isn't allowed while you are a member of the Organization.  I say if the JW's or any religion has the "truth", shouldn't it be open to be having it's beliefs and practices looked at objectively and be able to stand up to any kind of criticism, even by it's own members?  Where is the harm in that?  By the way, a number of Bethelites are having to quit their positions because of financial difficulties that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is facing.  These people work for the Organization for free and often give up what they already have to work there because they sincerely believe in the religion's cause.   I just worry about the Bethelites well-being, especially for those who didn't pursue higher education and may have limited skills, I wouldn't want them to end up homeless, which I do think could be a real possibility. I hope that the Society would be willing to help them out financially if possible, I think that that would be a good thing to do.  I don't believe that the Governing Body are wealthy beyond belief, but couldn't some of that money that they receive from voluntary donations be used to help as many of their workers as possible who must being going through a very difficult time emotionally and might be facing financial difficulties, until they can find another line of work?  I truly hope that that is what is done.












I think you're a good person, Joe, even if we might disagree with each other's views.  I hope that you are well and stay in good health.


Sincerely,


B.W.