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The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Posted: 05 November 2014 07:55 AM [ Ignore ]
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It's showing in Greenville later this month (double-plus sold out) and then in Charleston in February. If fellow PostMo's want to get together, we can go see the musical and then get dinner.
Get tickets for the 2 p.m. matinee on Sat., February 14, 2015 in Charleston if you want to go as a group. (Right now it's on presale: Use the code "Broadway" to get your tickets.)
I've created an event announcement on the Palmetto PostMo page as well.
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2014 Conference
"Chrysalis"
Oct. 9 - 12
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
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The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
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Meet the Mormons…in theaters, next week. I can hardly wait?
Posted: 02 October 2014 06:41 AM [ Ignore ]
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This morning my youngest daughter sent me a clip that's part of the trailer for Meet the Mormons...
#meetthemormons #floodtheearth #101014
I've only seen a short clip but, what I can see so far is this.
The masters of hype are at it again.
When I heard Jeff Holland come out and say that it's not for proselytizing the world, it showed me yet again just how delusional these folks are. Since most people will never travel to see the presentation at Temple Square, they're trying yet another method to broaden their reach. I don't think they can keep making Temple Square any larger. Right now they're redoing the Church history museum, but this is more window dressing.
Just notice the link, which came from the facebook post my daughter shared. "flood the earth". Does anyone else see the disconnect? I'm not sure how, 40 years ago when I was a youngster and saw the movie "Meet the Mormons", that was a missionary effort. Now, this one, which with the same title is now "new and improved", uses star power and new film techniques, sounds like a sequel? or a remake?
The Church is doing what the Church has done for years. I have to admit, they would make Joseph Goebbels stand up to attention and take notes. The masters of deception are at it again.
(Joseph Goebbels was Hitler's propaganda minister who was a master of moving the German public during World War 2 to become mindless, unthinking Nazis)
1) It uses emotional appeal Images of the post World War 2 air drops. An Navy football game...families laughing and together.....what does this have to do with the LDS Church?
2) It uses the celebrity and talents of it's members. David Archueleta is a young, popular and talented and probably a nice guy. His singing the song he does will cause some people to be feeling pretty good about the film. That said, how well he sings, or how well Steve Young throws a football...how talented Donnie and Marie are...how nice the stay is at the Marriott hotel is has nothing to do with whether or not the Book of Mormon is true.
3) It avoids it's real doctrine and history. How do you think people would feel if it knew that the Church hurts families by excluding people from their children's weddings? Or to find out that Joseph Smith started polygamy and practiced polyandry? Or that the members of the Church were involved in the Mountain Meadows Massacre and then tried to cover it up? Or any of the "essays" are just a light mentioning of the actual issues only so the Church can say we brought it to the attention of the members.
It strikes me that members are so out of touch with reality, so completely immersed in their faith that they can't consider the moral ramifications of what they do. They can be racist in practice and not consider that they're being racist. They build a massive downtown complex...the visitors center...the conference center...the mall.... and can't see that there's no spiritual value in any of it. It shouts "big corporation trying to pretend it's a religious institution."
What does Christ need with a "Polynesian cultural center"?
Or a multi-billion dollar mall?
My hope is that the Church in it's effort to use propaganda and the media to promote itself, that it will backfire and eventually the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.
Posted: 02 October 2014 07:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I doubt it does that much for missionary work. However, it probably is a great validation tool for current members as they will relate well to all their mormon stars.
Posted: 02 October 2014 08:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I didn't watch the clip, I'm not going to watch the clip... I was disgusted when my Sister, and my VT tried to tell me about how wonderful this "movie" is going to be.
And their insistance that you must, "Ask a Mormon" in order to get the real beliefs of a Mormon.... Um, I KNOW differently!
Like others have said (and I've told my sister), only Mormons or those who are looking into religion ("religious" people who are unsatisfied with their current religion, religious scholars) would even be interested in such a "movie" - and with that, I HATED the origional (yeah, I remember it) as a TBM, so I am pretty sure no sane non-Mormon would tolerate such.
I do feel sorry for the Mormons. I really do. I WAS there at one point in time. I really thought we were supposed to "Flood the Earth", and until that happened, the second coming couldn't/wouldn't happen yet.
Now, I don't even believe in the "second" coming - unless you're talking the "Dirty Deed" that is actually quite fun when you have the right drivers.
Anywhoo... I won't be going to see the show either, nor will I be close enough to Temple square to really care WHAT more they do to ruin the landscape!
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Posted: 02 October 2014 01:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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My prediction is that the theaters will be filled to capacity with TBMs who will use it as a validation experience. There may be a few curious investigators, but really, this sounds like a full lenght infomercial, minus the request for your Visa/MasterCard/AmEx number. (As we all know, they hit you up for money later!)
But really, who wants to sit through an infomercial? Not I.
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Posted: 02 October 2014 08:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I think the Polynesian Cultural Center is one of the better things that the church does with its money. It helps keep alive many things like dances, arts, and cultural traditions from the small societies on Pacific Islands who are losing their distinct cultures because of global communications and the global economy.
A new temple in an area is superstitious nonsense. A mall is for filthy lucre. But the Polynesian Cultural Center is for science and culture.
Posted: 02 October 2014 08:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Heretic:
I think the Polynesian Cultural Center is one of the better things that the church does with its money. It helps keep alive many things like dances, arts, and cultural traditions from the small societies on Pacific Islands who are losing their distinct cultures because of global communications and the global economy.
A new temple in an area is superstitious nonsense. A mall is for filthy lucre. But the Polynesian Cultural Center is for science and culture.
I was a big fan of the MIA hay rides! Church approved necking!
Posted: 02 October 2014 08:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Is anyone up for making a parody "Meet the PostMormons"?
The name sure sounds close to another movie "Meet the Focker"; following in JS footstep borrowing from other sources.
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Posted: 02 October 2014 09:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Heretic:
I think the Polynesian Cultural Center is one of the better things that the church does with its money. It helps keep alive many things like dances, arts, and cultural traditions from the small societies on Pacific Islands who are losing their distinct cultures because of global communications and the global economy.
A new temple in an area is superstitious nonsense. A mall is for filthy lucre. But the Polynesian Cultural Center is for science and culture.
Not sure I trust the church in this regard, are BYU-HI students (70 percent of the employees) the best ones to keep alive non-LDS traditions? Does it make sense for students of Southern Methodist University to keep alive the traditions of the Algonquin Indians?
Posted: 02 October 2014 09:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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WinstonSmith:
Is anyone up for making a parody "Meet the PostMormons"?
The name sure sounds close to another movie "Meet the Focker"; following in JS footstep borrowing from other sources.
I would like someone wicked and profane to do a "Meat The Mormons" parody! The mind boggles at the possibilities!
Posted: 03 October 2014 01:50 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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I would like to contribute to a "Meet the Post Mormons" if anyone else wants to participate.
One episode could involve Janie and Dan getting into their car on Sunday morning to go hike the mountain, having a picnic at the pristine lake, sipping wine, loud laughter - good times - then the flashback to what they would have been doing instead: Janie and Dan sitting in F&T meeting while old Brother Jones, who has no idea he's in the early stages of dimentia, goes on and on about how he knew his granddaughter was on the road to hell because she didn't admonish the prophecy of "just one earring" and now she's a prostitute supporting her crack addiction. Then brother Jones gives out her phone number becasue he says he wants the ward to help keep her out of jail and keep her off the streets while we see the fingers of Brother Swanson feverishly entering that number on his phone but there's a different motive for putting that number in his phone because . . .
Then we fade back to Janie and Dan who have finished their picnic and are lying on their blanket, watching the small collection of pure white clouds slowly move on towards another part of the gorgeous blue sky. It's not too hot, it's not too cold, there is no time, life is incredibly awesome. And they look at each other, smile, hands are clasped, then they close their eyes, basking in the sun, they begin to get warm as a cool breeze keeps everyting absoluely perfect.
And then we pan out, Janie and Dan become tiny spots as the gorgeous forest surrounds the lake, the enormity of majestic moutains is breathtaking while we hear the voice of a self-claimed prophet, seer, and revelator claim "They're not happy, they just think they're happy"
Then to scene two . . .
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Posted: 03 October 2014 05:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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My prediction is that the theaters will be filled to capacity with TBMs who will use it as a validation experience. There may be a few curious investigators, but really, this sounds like a full lenght infomercial, minus the request for your Visa/MasterCard/AmEx number. (As we all know, they hit you up for money later!)
But really, who wants to sit through an infomercial? Not I.
Not just an infomercial but an infomercial that you just paid $10 to watch!
The whole thing just looks so disingenuous -- just like so many of the "I'm a Mormon" ads.
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Posted: 09 October 2014 04:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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"Meet the Mormons" is starting to get reviews from top critics on Rotten Tomatoes. As of now there are only five reviews. The tomatometer rating is 0%! This is the absolute worst rating that Rotten Tomatoes offers.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/meet_the_mormons
Posted: 09 October 2014 08:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Bold Wish:
I would like to contribute to a "Meet the Post Mormons" if anyone else wants to participate.
One episode could involve Janie and Dan getting into their car on Sunday morning to go hike the mountain, having a picnic at the pristine lake, sipping wine, loud laughter - good times - then the flashback to what they would have been doing instead: Janie and Dan sitting in F&T meeting while old Brother Jones, who has no idea he's in the early stages of dimentia, goes on and on about how he knew his granddaughter was on the road to hell because she didn't admonish the prophecy of "just one earring" and now she's a prostitute supporting her crack addiction. Then brother Jones gives out her phone number becasue he says he wants the ward to help keep her out of jail and keep her off the streets while we see the fingers of Brother Swanson feverishly entering that number on his phone but there's a different motive for putting that number in his phone because . . .
Then we fade back to Janie and Dan who have finished their picnic and are lying on their blanket, watching the small collection of pure white clouds slowly move on towards another part of the gorgeous blue sky. It's not too hot, it's not too cold, there is no time, life is incredibly awesome. And they look at each other, smile, hands are clasped, then they close their eyes, basking in the sun, they begin to get warm as a cool breeze keeps everyting absoluely perfect.
And then we pan out, Janie and Dan become tiny spots as the gorgeous forest surrounds the lake, the enormity of majestic moutains is breathtaking while we hear the voice of a self-claimed prophet, seer, and revelator claim "They're not happy, they just think they're happy"
Then to scene two . . .
Bold Wish--You are so talented! I clicked onto this thread to add that we need a "Meet the PostMos" and there was your post! I like your movie! Maybe a scene can inlude fighting like they used to do when Janie still believed it was true and somewhere all the ugly history that they have to swallow and keep believing. I am someday going to have a lot of money--you watch and see! I wrote another song last night and it is a good one. I am going to contribute heavily to the "Meet the Post Mormons" movie. Coming--and sooner than we think!
Edited to Add: "Left Behind" is not doing well at all either. Maybe America is catching on!
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Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 10 October 2014 11:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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My prediction is that the theaters will be filled to capacity with TBMs who will use it as a validation experience. There may be a few curious investigators, but really, this sounds like a full lenght infomercial, minus the request for your Visa/MasterCard/AmEx number. (As we all know, they hit you up for money later!)
But really, who wants to sit through an infomercial? Not I.
Not just an infomercial but an infomercial that you just paid $10 to watch!
The whole thing just looks so disingenuous -- just like so many of the "I'm a Mormon" ads.
There is no way in hell this movie is for anyone but believing mormons.
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Posted: 10 October 2014 05:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Priceless review by the NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/10/movies/meet-the-mormons-explores-stereotypes-about-a-religion.html?_r=0
Posted: 10 October 2014 09:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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I tend to agree with the notion that its primarily intended as a validation exercise for existing tbms. I try not to underestimate the formidable LDS PR machine, but I can't help but suspect that to the uninitiated this will come across as a classic case of "the lady doth protest too much, methinks".
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Posted: 11 October 2014 05:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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I'm hearing way too much about this movie on my Facebook feed from TBM relatives and friends. It seems they have hand-crafted a carefully selected group to profile in this movie. Maybe the Post-Mormon community could create a sequel profiling some of the more controversial Mormons: Ted Bundy, George P. Lee, Brian David Mitchell.... Can you think of any more?
Posted: 11 October 2014 06:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Rmyth:
I doubt it does that much for missionary work. However, it probably is a great validation tool for current members as they will relate well to all their mormon stars.
Are you implying only TBMs will line up to watch? LOL
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Posted: 11 October 2014 08:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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Did you know that there's a message board for Meet the Mormons on IMDB? Someone has addressed a question to ex-Mormons.
Posted: 11 October 2014 08:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
Curious NeverMo
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My prediction is that the theaters will be filled to capacity with TBMs who will use it as a validation experience. There may be a few curious investigators, but really, this sounds like a full lenght infomercial, minus the request for your Visa/MasterCard/AmEx number. (As we all know, they hit you up for money later!)
But really, who wants to sit through an infomercial? Not I.
I went to IMDB to see if that had happened. They're not reporting any box office receipts.
Posted: 11 October 2014 09:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Ladyinthehat
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I would guess this was put out to stroke folks that are already members....not to find new ones. Folks like us are leaving the LDS church. The LDS church has to figure out how to keep people like us from leaving and taking our families (if we are lucky) with us and our money. Rocks to be us!
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Posted: 11 October 2014 04:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Here is a brief article about why a movie as tame as a documentary about a religious denomination would get a rating of "PG" rather than "G:"
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/58508125-180/mormons-com-http-meet.html.csp
'...The New York Times offers a warning not often seen in capsule reviews: "implicit proselytizing." '
Posted: 11 October 2014 07:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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The reviews are absolutely hilarious. A few examples:
From the Village Voice:
-
Her openness makes it the only compelling moment in the film, the rest of which could learn a thing or two about the complexity of the human experience from Coca-Cola commercials.
A burn from Roger's Movie Nation:
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Their wholesomeness is refreshing. Their optimism, and the film’s, is boundless.
But from the cherry-picked “stereotypes” to the sins of omission that follow, “Meet the Mormons” is nothing but propaganda. The film addresses the church’s reputation for “racism” without mentioning the long history in which that was true. The same gloss-it-over approach is used on the church’s sexist, patriarchal heritage.
The Hollywood Reporter:
-
Essentially a feature-length advertisement for the Mormon Church which makes AT&T's "Reach Out and Touch Someone" TV commercials seem edgy by comparison, Meet the Mormons is strictly for the converted.
The LA Times barely devoted three paragraphs to review it:
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It profiles six Mormons handpicked to prove its point...[that]...They are perfectly normal, just like you.
In explaining how this movie preaches to the converted, the NY Times digs in:
-
The narration promises surprises (“This story may challenge what you think you know about the roles men and women play in Mormon homes”), but the movie might have started by examining its straw-man conception of the audience.
I'm sure there's more, but you get the idea...
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Posted: 11 October 2014 07:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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It seems like the message is "look at us, we're as diverse and normal as any other religion". Which, when you think about it, is a pretty pitiful message to need to deliver. I mean, "we're just like everyone else" is not exactly going to pull in a lot of converts. But as others have noted, that doesn't seem to be the purpose. The purpose is for the already converted, to let them know, "hey, don't feel so bad that you're mormon - it's not that bad."
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Posted: 11 October 2014 08:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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smithandthewestons
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So far, from what I've heard, it's just another try-hard attempt to get people to think Mormonism is a super-friendly Christian alternative to join. It was funny, though, when I had to explain to my parents why the church was trying to wipe the view of being racist away.
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Posted: 12 October 2014 12:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
finex
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Can anyone confirm this:
http://www.nearingkolob.com/lds-church-paying-people-watch-meet-mormons/
"
LDS Church Paying for People to Watch “Meet the Mormons”?"
Posted: 12 October 2014 04:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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Bold Wish
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"Do you think tithing/fast offering monies should be used to help members attend a showing of the Church’s new film?"
I belive there's a disclaimer on the "tithing and other donations" receit which indicates something similar to "Look fool, we can do any damn thing we want with this money - it's our now ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!"
Seems like the first thing they would print is "thank you"
What a low class group of thugs.
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Repetitive practice of meaningless ritual and imposition of mindless busy work are both hallmarks of a true cult.
Posted: 12 October 2014 09:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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Timber
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Life Rocks:
It strikes me that members are so out of touch with reality, so completely immersed in their faith that they can't consider the moral ramifications of what they do. They can be racist in practice and not consider that they're being racist. They build a massive downtown complex...the visitors center...the conference center...the mall.... and can't see that there's no spiritual value in any of it. It shouts "big corporation trying to pretend it's a religious institution."
I like this observation. In the women's conference thread My Turn also notes that women can't see the forest from the trees.
This is how we were all raised. It's a brand of profound mind control leaving many of us feeling, at that pivotal moment that we crossed the threshold, like we were home schooled and not prepared for the real world outside.
I'm so proud to be in this community where we all get it. We're working to move the needle. It's amazing how many blog sites now exist that talk about these issues and they HAVEN'T BEEN SHUT DOWN! Women are starting to wake up one percentage point at a time. Members are opening up, one percentage point at a time. The more the fundamentalist members talk the more the rest of the Mormons think, "hey that is crazy bat crap, I don't think I agree with that." Meet the Mormons can't keep up.
Not every Mormon is capable of awakening or in a life place where they can make it through the journey. But over time, accountability for LDS corp will continue to grow. It is the age of individual empowerment, thanks to the Internet, where those who are ready have a good shot of breaking out.
Posted: 12 October 2014 09:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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4thNephite
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"Meet the Mormons" is starting to get reviews from top critics on Rotten Tomatoes. As of now there are only five reviews. The tomatometer rating is 0%! This is the absolute worst rating that Rotten Tomatoes offers.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/meet_the_mormons
My initial reaction upon seeing the first ad for this movie was "why would I want to see a full-length movie version of one of those '...and I'm a Mormon!' commercials?" Then I read this review summary from the Rotten Tomates site which confirmed that I'm not alone:
"Would you go out of your way to see an infomercial that was more than an hour long? Would you even pay for the privilege? That's what "Meet the Mormons" would have filmgoers do."
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Posted: 13 October 2014 03:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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Kirby has weighed in... "While it’s nice to have my people portrayed as so blissfully positive, I came away wondering if I had been raised in a completely different church."
I love Kirby calling it like it is.
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Posted: 13 October 2014 03:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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Tessa
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ABC 4 news reported it's the 4th highest money maker...made 2 mil in 300 theaters it was released in. Of course, not much movie competition.
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Posted: 13 October 2014 04:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
finex
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Tessa:
ABC 4 news reported it's the 4th highest money maker...made 2 mil in 300 theaters it was released in. Of course, not much movie competition.
How much of that came from mormons themselves? Are the members going to see it several times to keep up the numbers in the future weeks?
Posted: 13 October 2014 07:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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Here's a more accurate poster:
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Posted: 13 October 2014 07:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
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Sunbeep
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Timber:
This is how we were all raised. It's a brand of profound mind control leaving many of us feeling, at that pivotal moment that we crossed the threshold, like we were home schooled and not prepared for the real world outside.
This is spot-on to the way I see it too.
As for the movie, I have no desire to sit through a sweetly sickening episode of How the Morg Turns and hear the sanitized side of it again.
Remember Saturday's Warrior? When it came out I was morgified beyond reach and this movie made tital waves where I lived. I identified with Jimmy who was torn between the sides of good and evil. We bought the VHS and wore it out. We bought the soundtrack on cassette and worn that out as well. I even had an 8 track version for cruisin in style.
I suspect that every moron will watch this movie and then add the DVD version to their moron shelf of approved materials.
I recently had the occasion to empty my house of everything church related. I took a truck load of books, tapes, discs, magazines, manuals, etc to Deseret Industries. Surprisingly, as the DI helpers helped unload the truck, they set aside the large pictures of temples, prophets, and jebus. I hope they were going into the incinerater but I doubt it.
I will make a prediction here. In 20 years this movie will be butt a memory and you will be helping someone clean out their house. You will see DVDs of this along with all the other church crap going to either the dump or a salvation store.
Posted: 13 October 2014 02:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
Pamela P
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WinstonSmith:
Is anyone up for making a parody "Meet the PostMormons"?
The name sure sounds close to another movie "Meet the Focker"; following in JS footstep borrowing from other sources.
I would like someone wicked and profane to do a "Meat The Mormons" parody! The mind boggles at the possibilities!
I have a lot of family who are still Mormons and live in SLC. On Facebook they are constantly putting quotes from the church leaders and yes, now they cannot wait for the 'Meet the Mormons' movie. I want to dry heave...
Your comment about wicked and profane, do you think that 'The Book Of Mormon' Broadway show against or for Mormons? I sort of want to see it sometime. It makes fun of it at least which I think would be awesome. I mean, if you think about it, the whole setup of the church is actually sort of funny. Wow there are suckers born every minute!
There's another funny movie that I thought was great about Mormons - Orgazmo - also written by the SouthPark authors. I wonder why the South Park authors Trey Parker and Matt Stone seem to be doing so much on Mormons???
Posted: 13 October 2014 02:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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Tessa
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2 million over a weekend is fairly lame by Hollywood standards, barely an "independent film" category either.
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Posted: 13 October 2014 05:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
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Bold Wish
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Swearing Elder:
Here's a more accurate poster:
Shouldn't they use this image of Beck, aka "Mr. Cry On Demand" (the story of this is really incredible - he was recorded as he was practicing crying during one of his remake videos)
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DrW:
Repetitive practice of meaningless ritual and imposition of mindless busy work are both hallmarks of a true cult.
Posted: 13 October 2014 08:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
huehuetenango
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Tessa:
ABC 4 news reported it's the 4th highest money maker...made 2 mil in 300 theaters it was released in. Of course, not much movie competition.
Where is it the 4th highest money maker everything I've seen puts it at 10 or11 though it had a very good theater average.
You can see box office info here:
http://www.fandango.com/boxoffice
Posted: 14 October 2014 06:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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Almost all the reviews are five stars!!!!! Isn't that special, amazing, and edifying? (It is playing in a few theaters here in Vancouver WA)
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Posted: 14 October 2014 06:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
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It amazes me that in Mormon culture a fabricated reality is just as good as the real thing. They can pretend all they want that their movie was a big success, but the reality is that outside of Mormon culture, in the real world, its a joke.
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Posted: 14 October 2014 06:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 40 ]
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Those South Park dudes, Trey and Matt, well, for one thing, one has to consider that there is so much out there in reality, for them to actually work with. And secondly, is that they can.
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Meet the Mormons…in theaters, next week. I can hardly wait?
Posted: 14 October 2014 07:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 41 ]
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Tessa
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Maybe ABC 4 was "comparing" the 4th highest grossing to.....(drum-roll) Book of Mormon, the Movie??!!
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 14 October 2014 08:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 42 ]
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Jeff Ricks:
It amazes me that in Mormon culture a fabricated reality is just as good as the real thing. They can pretend all they want that their movie was a big success, but the reality is that outside of Mormon culture, in the real world, its a joke.
Jeff is truly inspired. My sources have told me that the big dogs have gotten ahold of this quote and it is strongly being considered as an ammendment to the Articles of Faith.
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Posted: 14 October 2014 12:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 43 ]
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thalmar
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I want to see someone make: Meet the Brethren
Sounds more like a creepy cult movie that way. Which is exactly what the church is anyway.
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Posted: 14 October 2014 04:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 44 ]
Carl
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Heretic:
I think the Polynesian Cultural Center is one of the better things that the church does with its money. It helps keep alive many things like dances, arts, and cultural traditions from the small societies on Pacific Islands who are losing their distinct cultures because of global communications and the global economy.
A new temple in an area is superstitious nonsense. A mall is for filthy lucre. But the Polynesian Cultural Center is for science and culture.
I was at the cultural center last year. The folks who staff it are mostly LDS college students from BYU Hawaii(which serves a purpose-genius). We went throughout the center and were very impressed by the huts/dancers and so on. I asked my tour guide where the polynesians came from. Is there DNA evidence linking them to a particular ancestry? I received the most blank of blank stares. This seemed quite a natural question to ask a guide at a Polynesian Cultural Center. I have no evidence, but I would guess that very few of the LDS guides could answer the question. Perhaps the center is for culture, but I would need more evidence to convince me that the church hasbriefed any of their staff on the science behind the anthropology of Polynesians.
Posted: 24 October 2014 07:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 45 ]
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Lord of Darkness
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Did you know that "Meet the Mormons" is now 37th on all-time documentary list after reaching $4.5 million in ticket sales?
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865613579/Meet-the-Mormons-reaches-45-million-mark-now-37th-on-all-time-documentary-list.html
It's hard to think of a more hollow "achievement." Church makes a "documentary"--probably spends $10-15 million in the production and marketing--and overhypes the thing to death. The church must be spending some serious coin to keep it in so many theaters at this point. The tickets sales are in a steep nose dive but it remains in 333 theaters.
http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=meetthemormons.htm
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Posted: 24 October 2014 12:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 46 ]
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Their per screen per day take has seriously dropped to $450 or a little less than a quarter of what they took in for the previous week. [Hit the "Daily" tab; that's where all the info is] Nevertheless, they may have (I say "may" because we don't know how many of those tickets they bought and distributed themselves) recouped $5million on a film they had already budgeted and made for internal PR use. What's more, they probably stoked the faithful in the process.
Don't overlook the fact that they'll be on that list of documentary film receipts for a loooong time because for every Roger and Me there are hundreds of Skinny White Guy Does the Himalayas which get shown in one neighborhood theater or one college campus theater to the filmmakers' friends and classmates. Fact is, they managed to get themselves some credibility here in terms of box office. Probably never doctrinally, but in terms of raw numbers I think they accomplished something. You gotta give them their due, ya know?
It may all have been a [insert gesture involving a circled fist here] but they marketed it smartly and it can fuel their appetite to do future ones until something sticks. That is, if the material they have to work with ever becomes palatable.
Posted: 24 October 2014 12:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 47 ]
Hank
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In seminary, the kids (including my son) were told that they would get extra credit in the class if they went to see this movie this weekend......
Posted: 24 October 2014 12:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 48 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Grrr...
Curious NeverMo, I actually agree with you. They played this hand pretty well from a stance of internal PR: it's impressing the believers, strengthening their resolve and their belief that they are part of something special. I remember being a youth and the intoxicating message that we were a special, chosen generation. Boy was that ever delicious to this self-doubting, ego-hungry teenager.
I think it's stuff like this that gives LDS Inc. so much power: power grows if an organization can tap into ego hunger and the longing for lasting love.
Posted: 28 October 2014 05:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 49 ]
Curious NeverMo
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For anyone keeping track, MtM is down to 128 theaters. Nevertheless, it took in another $275K last week. It is no longer showing among box office leaders.
Interestingly, for a "worldwide church" with more members overseas than in the US, it has NO foreign receipts. Not sure they ever anticipated any but I am enjoying the irony.
Posted: 28 October 2014 06:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 50 ]
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When I was in my late teens and studying advertising, I came across a guy with a proven record in results, who referred to most corporate advertising as 'corporate masturbation'.
I think this term fits this Mormon initiative perfectly.
What sort of organisation would embark upon such a form of self adoration?
In short, the answer that comes to my mind is the North Korean government. ONly these sorts of organisations are filled with ass-kissers who think exhibiting passion about this sort of 'art' says anything of value.
What sort of member doesn't have the hairs on the back of their neck stand up, upon viewing such material, and fail to recognise it for the propoganda that it is?
This is like some form of circle-jerk.
But the Church is through.
Daryl
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Posted: 28 October 2014 07:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 51 ]
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I am bummed out that one of the nine critics who reviewed the movie on Rotten Tomatoes liked it, and now it has an 11% fresh rating on the tomatometer rather than 0%. And as you might guess, this one critic is a Mormon.
Posted: 29 October 2014 10:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 52 ]
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Curious NeverMo:
For anyone keeping track, MtM is down to 128 theaters. Nevertheless, it took in another $275K last week. It is no longer showing among box office leaders.
Interestingly, for a "worldwide church" with more members overseas than in the US, it has NO foreign receipts. Not sure they ever anticipated any but I am enjoying the irony.
Yeah...the nose dive continues. The movie is on life support at this point...should be out of theaters before the end of the month.
http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=meetthemormons.htm
Get ready for the PR machine of the church to declare it the "most successful documentary of all time!"
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Has anyone ever studied the statistics regarding the socio-economic status of converts?
Posted: 30 October 2014 05:35 AM [ Ignore ]
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Toyota is moving it's headquarters to my city. There is a huge multi-use development project that's been announced recently. Headquarters, townhomes, condos, shopping, restaurants are all being built in the only open space in my city. About 2,400 toyota execs will be moving and their new presence creates more business which will create a demand for even more people hence the major development projects to accomodate growth.
Anyways a TBM on my facebook was getting all giddy about it. He was thinking new mormon families moving into the wards. Making jokes about all the elders quorums presidents that have to "get ready to help move people every weekend" There was talk of a need for a new stake because of how many mormon families would be moving into the area. They were getting pretty excited.
Someone, I'm suspecting a member of his ward, commented that because these were nice, upscale condos she they didn't think it would add much, if any, mormons. She went on to say that mormons don't live in places that upscale or that urban(surrounded by bars and him restaurants). My FB "friend" replied "well what do you think the missionaries are for :)"
That got me thinking...Everyone I baptized in my State-side mission was struggling financially. Everyone who listened to us was usually on the lower-end of the financial spectrum. I can't think of a single investigator that didn't work in manual labor. Many investigators were unemployed. Out of the 7 people I baptized, 3 couldn't read at all and the remaining 4 could only read at about an 8th grade level. Only 2 of those 7 people had vehicles and this was in rural New York. Traditionally, the more wealthy areas have low baptism rates. I know this because I peruse missionary blogs in the area and they always bemoan a transfer to the "wealthy and proud" suburbs north of the metroplex. "they never baptize because they are too set in their ways and too stiff necked"
Coming home, I'd hear my dad express frustration with the recent converts baptized into his ward. The recent converts often struggled to hold down a job, they rarely had transportation and he always felt they didn't fully understand what they had committed to do at baptism. If the recent converts were introduced by friends, you don't seem to encounter this as much. Maybe there is an intresting change when you compare people who were introduced through friends and people who were just tracted into. Maybe not. It'd be interesting to see.
I wonder if anyone has ever looked into the statistics of recent converts. Education level, income level, type of work/career, etc I know Ryan Cragun does lots of demographic studies but couldn't think of where to look. I guess this study would be problematic because you could only get the data from church headquarters. I don't think they would comply. Anyone else ever thought about this? Anyone else expreinced similar things on their missions or maybe during their years active?
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Posted: 30 October 2014 07:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I went to Mexico on a mission, every baptism I was involved in, the converts were extremely poor. It always made me uncomfortable. Especially when these poor families would spend their money first on church things (tithing, feeding the missionaries, etc.).
In fact, I remember tearing into a guy who had a hard time staying employed and taking care of his wife and two young kids. And when I say taking care, I mean just buying a can of beans. As soon as he was paid, he'd invite the missionaries over and spend it on food for us. Once I caught on, I pulled him outside let him know he would never provide for the missionaries as long as I was there, that he needed to focus on his family.
Sorry, that was a huge deduction, but yeah, all my experience was with very poor, and very under-educated members/converts in Mexico.
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Where did the Temple Ceremony come from?
Posted: 10 June 2014 09:56 AM [ Ignore ]
Nephi
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Putting aside for now the Masonic copying - what written revelation or written account is there from Joseph Smith telling when the Temple Ceremony was revealed to him?
When it was 'restored' and which of the heavenly messengers did so?
The early Temple was a place for public dances, gatherings and meetings.
Why did that change?
Supposedly Jesus personally appeared to Joseph in the Kirtland Temple.
Not one story since that time of him appearing at any other.
Anyway - where is the written account of when and where the ceremonies were given to Joseph Smith?
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Posted: 10 June 2014 10:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Nephi---Don't you know that Reason is the enemy of Faith? To ask such a question is to think critically and to be on the brink of Apostasy
One can replace 'Temple Ceremony', in your question, with many other Mormon constructs and then it leaves one thinking OMFG!!!
One would think that the 'Temple Ceremony' would be found in the BoM---after all it has been said that the BoM "contains the fullness of the gospel"---then again can that quote be attributed to anyone specific???
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Posted: 10 June 2014 10:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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The endowment as it now exists is largely based on Brigham Young's original script. He and a few of the other "early" brethren cobbled it together after JS died in a gunfight, because it had not been recorded. I believe it was BY who put it into the context of an allegorical play, à la freemasonry. The play had very little to do with the masonic ritual, but the signs, tokens and penalties certainly did.
Brigham's intial endowment was quite a production, with costumes and everything (per Ann Eliza Young's account). The oath of vengeance (removed in 1927) was entirely BY's doing. Of course, the brethren pronounced it holy and revealed by God and never to be altered, and yet now the endowment is a mere shadow of its former self.
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Posted: 10 June 2014 10:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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That's exactly the question I had when I went through the temple the first time. I didn't want to look stupid or unworhty by asking about such a sacred thing. It bothered me for decades. I wondered - did I miss something in the temple prep class? I looked though the temple prep manual and it didn't give a direct answer (of course), just danced around the issue.
Sooo, when I left the church and gave away all of my church books, I found that temple prep book and circled the paragraph regarding the origins of of temple ceremony and wrote things in the margin for some future reader. I did the same with my other church books as well and sent them off to D.I. Hope it helped someone else to break free.
Posted: 10 June 2014 12:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Matter Unorganized. That is correct.
As a temple worker sometimes we were assigned to be proxies for a sealing ceremony, (because the ward that assigned didn't show up.) Well, one time one of the sealers (who was also in the temple presidency and a BYU prof) as we were inbetween rotations, told us that before the St. George temple was finished BY and a few others met to see what they could remember of JS's version of the endowment.
I sat there dumbfounded. WTF? You mean it wasn't written down like all the other prophecies and revelations? They had to rack their brains to come up with THE MOST IMPORTANT crowning piece of the restoration and exaltation? My shelf of Cog-Dis had a fault line in it that day.
It wasn't long after that that as an ordinance worker, the one representing Elohim, that the spirit told me to get out of the temple, that what was going on inside was useless dead works, that the people were blind-folded into doing temple work. This went on for three months, in various positions in the temple. During the temple two-week break I booked it, resigned my calling. Six months later I bore my last testimony in FnT meeting. So glad I found out it was a con.
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Posted: 10 June 2014 01:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Quartersawn:
Matter Unorganized. That is correct.
As a temple worker sometimes we were assigned to be proxies for a sealing ceremony, (because the ward that assigned didn't show up.) Well, one time one of the sealers (who was also in the temple presidency and a BYU prof) as we were inbetween rotations, told us that before the St. George temple was finished BY and a few others met to see what they could remember of JS's version of the endowment.
I sat there dumbfounded. WTF? You mean it wasn't written down like all the other prophecies and revelations? They had to rack their brains to come up with THE MOST IMPORTANT crowning piece of the restoration and exaltation? My shelf of Cog-Dis had a fault line in it that day.
It wasn't long after that that as an ordinance worker, the one representing Elohim, that the spirit told me to get out of the temple, that what was going on inside was useless dead works, that the people were blind-folded into doing temple work. This went on for three months, in various positions in the temple. During the temple two-week break I booked it, resigned my calling. Six months later I bore my last testimony in FnT meeting. So glad I found out it was a con.
Wow, that's a fascinating piece of LDS history there. Thanks for telling about it. I also get a kick out of your personal history in this. I am really impressed at all of the pathways out of Mormonism. There is "one straight and narrow way" within the church, but the paths out are numerous and wildly varying. How many temple workers began their journey out after hearing history of the endowment? I just love the unpredictability of it all. Must drive the brethren mad when there's not just one leak in the dam.
Posted: 10 June 2014 01:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Do you think we could get someone to ask Jeffrey Holland about this? After all, the guy is not a dodo.
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He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
That is reserved for the Cat.
Posted: 10 June 2014 02:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
The endowment as it now exists is largely based on Brigham Young's original script. He and a few of the other "early" brethren cobbled it together after JS died in a gunfight, because it had not been recorded. I believe it was BY who put it into the context of an allegorical play, à la freemasonry. The play had very little to do with the masonic ritual, but the signs, tokens and penalties certainly did.
Brigham's intial endowment was quite a production, with costumes and everything (per Ann Eliza Young's account). The oath of vengeance (removed in 1927) was entirely BY's doing. Of course, the brethren pronounced it holy and revealed by God and never to be altered, and yet now the endowment is a mere shadow of its former self.
Costumes? Oh yes! Brigham had a white leather suit (!) that he wore during the ceremony. (Was it purchased at ZCMI?)
Posted: 10 June 2014 02:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Prilgrith:
Matter Unorganized:
The endowment as it now exists is largely based on Brigham Young's original script. He and a few of the other "early" brethren cobbled it together after JS died in a gunfight, because it had not been recorded. I believe it was BY who put it into the context of an allegorical play, à la freemasonry. The play had very little to do with the masonic ritual, but the signs, tokens and penalties certainly did.
Brigham's intial endowment was quite a production, with costumes and everything (per Ann Eliza Young's account). The oath of vengeance (removed in 1927) was entirely BY's doing. Of course, the brethren pronounced it holy and revealed by God and never to be altered, and yet now the endowment is a mere shadow of its former self.
Costumes? Oh yes! Brigham had a white leather suit (!) that he wore during the ceremony. (Was it purchased at ZCMI?)
Actually, the guy playing the part of the serpent had a costume with a long tail and he hopped around on one leg. It really was quite a production.
Also - Pre 1990 I remember the dude playing Satan had a masonic apron on, with a bunch of masonic emblems on the front of it. After 1990, it was just a plain blue apron.
I remember this little exchange, which was modified after 1990:
(Current, and pre-1990)
Adam: What is that apron you have on?
Lucifer: It is an emblem of my power and my priesthoods.
(Pre-1990 only)
Adam: Priesthoods?
Lucifer: Yes, priesthoods!
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Offer me that deathless death
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 10 June 2014 02:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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I wasn't kidding about the leather suit, though. I recently read that in John G Turner's Brig bio.
Posted: 10 June 2014 05:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Nephi:
Do you think we could get someone to ask Jeffrey Holland about this? After all, the guy is not a dodo.
We do not have an Oath of Vengence in the temple...
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Adam is God and Brigham is his Prophet.
Posted: 10 June 2014 06:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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zelph-doubt:
Nephi:
Do you think we could get someone to ask Jeffrey Holland about this? After all, the guy is not a dodo.
We do not have an Oath of Vengence in the temple...
Not now we don't... From what i understand, in D&C Sec. 209, a direct revelation from allmeaty ghawd to Heber J. Grant, ghawd, meeting with Heber in the SLC Temple, instructed Heber to remove the Oath of Vengence from the temple ceremony. Ghawd's words to Heber are very moving and my lower lip trembled and I fought back tears as I read it; ghawd's compassion is so noble!
Oh, wait, I find I am in error. there is no Sec. 209...
Here's the Wikipedia version of mormondom's Oath of Vengence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_vengeance
Posted: 10 June 2014 10:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Quartersawn
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zelph-doubt:
Nephi:
Do you think we could get someone to ask Jeffrey Holland about this? After all, the guy is not a dodo.
We do not have an Oath of Vengence in the temple...
From MormonThink:
The original temple ceremony practiced by the saints included an oath of vengeance against the United States government for the death of Joseph Smith. The change was added by Brigham Young after Joseph was killed by the mob. This was removed in early 1927. Imagine if Mitt Romney was running for president after taking an oath against the United States government.
The oath in part was:
-
You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray, and never cease to pray, Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and your children's children unto the third and fourth generations.
It became the subject of a United States Senate Investigation:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/oathvenge.shtml
More on that here: http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no48.htm
Something else to think about, 100 years ago washings were done in the buff, and you were literally washed by someone else while you stood in a square shaped bathtub.
There ya go...now ya know.
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me
Posted: 11 June 2014 07:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Well they took out all the slicing/slashing of throat, breasts and guts...in 1990, too. This was a "reminder" that life will be taken if any of the temple ceremony is revealed to outsiders. Guess they didn't expect the internet to try and catch all the millions who now know about the whole masonic-based rituals.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 11 June 2014 04:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
zelph-doubt
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zelph-doubt:
Nephi:
Do you think we could get someone to ask Jeffrey Holland about this? After all, the guy is not a dodo.
We do not have an Oath of Vengence in the temple...
...We use to.
Was what I was going for. A reference to his inspiring BBC interview. Damn Poe's Law.
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Adam is God and Brigham is his Prophet.
Posted: 11 June 2014 05:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Ginger Nicole
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I saw a lot of "mystery religion" stuff in the Temple. Magic and esoteric knowledge, teachers from higher planes, conflict invisible powers.
Today, we would call it Wicca or witchcraft or New Age. Back then... not sure what they called it.
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“All boundaries are conventions, waiting to be transcended.” -Robert Frobisher, Cloud Atlas
Posted: 12 June 2014 05:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Would they toss you out of a session if you came in with a white leather outfit? Even if you didn't have Elvis sideburns and sunglasses?
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He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
That is reserved for the Cat.
Posted: 12 June 2014 07:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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The meeting "at the veil" with the flying Elvii....
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 29 October 2014 05:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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First off on the word of a Master Mason I will not reveal what happens inside a lodge. Now I was thinking about this since I am a 3rd degree master Mason along with being a 32nd degree Scottish Rites Mason; we have three books, two of which detail some of the craft lessons in both lodges. The first of which is Hyrum Abaif and the larger of the two details all of the rituals we take as SRM from the 4th degree to the 32nd. The third book we use is our red book which comes from the Grand Lodge. All I will say is the red book which we use is for local lodges and the Grand Lodge also gives to Past Masters another book for presiding over special affairs that only are knowledge of the current Master. Most Grand Lodges give out just enough books for all those that are going thru the seats. Our red books contain no words that can be read, but by knowledge and study of the craft. Now think of this... If the strange characters that are in our red book, what would be the chance that Joe got his hands on a book like this. Understand the penalty for disclosing the contents are the same as what he told those in his home about the plates. So like me I am not allowed to disclose the contents of my red book, but he did not become a Mason until he arrived in IL. So if by chance he saw a book like this and stole it, he still wouldn't be able to read it but would give him a part of his treasure. Just a thought John
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Five Scariest Teachings of Jesus—Huffington Post
Posted: 30 October 2014 09:15 PM [ Ignore ]
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-osler/scariest-teachings-of-jesus_b_6075490.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
I hope they do an article entitled: "The 100 Scariest Teachings of the Bible" and maybe "The 100 Scariest Teachings of Mormonism." Hmm--maybe someone one here could write these and send them in!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 31 October 2014 05:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Strong Free & Thankful:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-osler/scariest-teachings-of-jesus_b_6075490.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
I hope they do an article entitled: "The 100 Scariest Teachings of the Bible" and maybe "The 100 Scariest Teachings of Mormonism." Hmm--maybe someone one here could write these and send them in!
Collectively us PostMos should be able to generate a comperhensive list:
‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.'
- Heber J. Grant
Blood Atonement: "Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom . . . and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, "shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?" All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?"
(Journal of Discourse, Volume 4, Page 219, 1857)
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 31 October 2014 09:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Where can the revelation be found where BY said the most important revelation he had received was that one stating it was OK with god for a blood brother and sister marry?
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 31 October 2014 12:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Where can the revelation be found where BY said the most important revelation he had received was that one stating it was OK with god for a blood brother and sister marry?
This is the best I could come up with---Judging from the date---October General Conference 1854---Not sure I would call it a revelation---just another WTF sermon spoken from the pulpit that should give any TBM reason to question the creditability of anything that spoken from the pulpit from any prophet, seer or revelator.
8 Oct, 1854 - In what Apostle Wilford Woodruff describes as "the greatest sermon that ever was delivered to the Latter Day Saints since they have been a people," Brigham Young announces from the pulpit: "I believe in Sisters marrying brothers, and brothers having their sisters for Wives. Why? because we cannot do otherwise. There are none others for me to and the opposite idea has resulted from the ignorant and foolish traditions of the nations of the earth." Young's secretary George D. Watt has already married his own half sister as a plural wife. Her letter to Young shows that he was initially "unfavorable" toward allowing them to marry, but this sermon reveals theological basis for Young's authorizing Watt's brother-sister marriage and the three children born of their union.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 31 October 2014 03:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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WinstonSmith:
Strong Free & Thankful:
Where can the revelation be found where BY said the most important revelation he had received was that one stating it was OK with god for a blood brother and sister marry?
This is the best I could come up with---Judging from the date---October General Conference 1854---Not sure I would call it a revelation---just another WTF sermon spoken from the pulpit that should give any TBM reason to question the creditability of anything that spoken from the pulpit from any prophet, seer or revelator.
8 Oct, 1854 - In what Apostle Wilford Woodruff describes as "the greatest sermon that ever was delivered to the Latter Day Saints since they have been a people," Brigham Young announces from the pulpit: "I believe in Sisters marrying brothers, and brothers having their sisters for Wives. Why? because we cannot do otherwise. There are none others for me to and the opposite idea has resulted from the ignorant and foolish traditions of the nations of the earth." Young's secretary George D. Watt has already married his own half sister as a plural wife. Her letter to Young shows that he was initially "unfavorable" toward allowing them to marry, but this sermon reveals theological basis for Young's authorizing Watt's brother-sister marriage and the three children born of their union.
That is it! Thank you WinstonSmith!
I know there was a lot of inter marrying of close kin in UT. This could not have been a positive sermon toward that problem. just them the leaders being idiots.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 01 November 2014 06:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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When I read some hand written personal pioneer journals, it was evident in the writing, that the only way the children found out who their fathers really were, was by what their mothers told them. They had no idea who their father was, until Mommy Dearest told them who he was. Talk about a uncertain family lineage for youngsters to accommodate, to know their place in their own family history and own their own identity in their world is amazingly confusing for a young mind to conceptualize. But in this culturally isolated part of the West, it was considered and viewed as "normal".
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When did issuing Temple Recommends start? & changes through the years
Posted: 27 October 2014 06:48 PM [ Ignore ]
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When did the church start the process to issue actua temple recommends?
Was early admittance judged by appearance? They held dances in the Temple - apparently no one needed recommends for that.
How have the recommends themselves changed through the years?
When did they start the questions and how have they changed through the years?
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My dog has Health in the navel. marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews…
He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
That is reserved for the Cat.
Posted: 28 October 2014 10:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Nephi:
When did the church start the process to issue actua temple recommends?
Was early admittance judged by appearance? They held dances in the Temple - apparently no one needed recommends for that.
How have the recommends themselves changed through the years?
When did they start the questions and how have they changed through the years?
From Wikipedia, under mormon temples:
Entrance requirements[edit]
The Washington D.C. Temple is the 16th Latter-day Saint temple.
The Preston England Temple, located outside Chorley, Lancashire, England.
The LDS Church booklet "Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple" explains that Latter-day Saints "do not discuss the temple ordinances outside the temples." Further, the booklet states:
-
It was never intended that knowledge of these temple ceremonies would be limited to a select few who would be obliged to ensure that others never learn of them. It is quite the opposite, in fact. With great effort the church urges every soul to qualify and prepare for the temple experience.[9]
To enter the temple, an individual must be baptized, and after one year, may seek atemple recommend. The individual is interviewed by his/her bishop, during which the candidate is asked a series of questions to determine worthiness to enter the temple. The individual is also interviewed by his or her stake president. The bishop and stake president sign the recommend, indicating their approval of that member's worthiness. The individual also signs the recommend, acknowledging the responsibility to remain worthy to hold the recommend. A recommend is valid for two years.
Worthiness interview[edit]To qualify for a temple recommend, a member must faithfully answer a series of questions which affirm the individual's adherence to essential church doctrine. The questions address the following:[10]
Faith in and testimony of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost,
Testimony of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Testimony of the Restoration of the Gospel.
Sustain the President of the Church and his authority, and other general authorities and local church leaders.
Living the law of chastity.
Relationships with family members as being in harmony with church teachings.
Support for or affiliation with any group or individual with teachings or practices that are not in agreement with church teachings.
Making a good faith effort to keep the covenants the individual has made, to attend church meetings and keep their life in harmony with the gospel.
Honesty in dealings with others.
Paying a full tithe.
Keeping the Word of Wisdom.
Payment of and keeping current on child support or alimony, if applicable.
If already attending the temple, does the individual keep the covenants made in the temple and wear the temple garment"night and day" according to the covenants made in the temple.
Making a full confession of any serious sins to church leaders.
Regarding oneself worthy to enter the temple and take part in the ordinances within.
History of interview questions[edit]A list of questions were first introduced in 1857 and used to qualify whether an individual could enter the Endowment House, before the first temple in Utah was built. They reflected the context of the times, including questions about branding an animal that you did not own and using another person's irrigation water.[11] Since then, the temple recommend questions have changed significantly, though less so in recent years. In 1996, the first question about a belief in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was split into three questions. A second question was modified to ask if the member sustained the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators. The question about wearing the garments was qualified, added a clause about wearing them as instructed in the temple.[12] In 1999, a simplified question about financial obligations was asked of all members, not just divorced members.[13] In 2012, the question about wearing the garments was slightly modified to clarify that the garments should not be worn separately.
Posted: 28 October 2014 11:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Nephi
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Thanks for posting that.
Would be intersting seeing the lists of questions asked through the years.
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Posted: 30 October 2014 01:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Nephi:
How have the recommends themselves changed through the years?
In the early 1950s when I was temple-worthy, the recommend was on paper, issued in triplicate, 8.5 x 5.5. Original was given to the member, one copy was for the temple, and one copy retained by the bishop. You had to get a separate recommend for each temple you wanted to attend. I had recommends for the Idaho Falls, Logan, Manti, Salt Lake and St. George temples.
Until about 2002 it was a card good for any temple. It was easy to reproduce in a color copy machine, so the church added the bar code.
Posted: 30 October 2014 02:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Thanks for these details, Richard. I find this sort of thing fascinating.
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Interview on Logicast BlogTalkRadio on Mormons and Brainwashing
Posted: 31 October 2014 11:57 AM [ Ignore ]
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Lots of fun things going on this week. I was interviewed last night on Logicast Blog Talk Radio about Mormonism and Brainwashing. The interview is about 45 minutes long. My bit starts about 13 minutes in. Here: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/logicast/2014/10/31/mormonism-and-brainwashing-a-conversation-with-author-luna-lindsey
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Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 31 October 2014 02:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Excellent interview! I thought you did great!
P.S. Thanks for the heads up on the 13-minute delay until your part of the show begins. It is appreciated!
Posted: 01 November 2014 07:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Good interview. I think they need to get better theme music for their podcast. Three minutes straight of rap music? I thought I was in the wrong place and had found streaming music rather than a talk show. But it was a good show. The way the two outsiders expressed bafflement about Mormonism and you explained some things to them.
Posted: 01 November 2014 01:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Thanks for sharing this. I liked the example of brainwashing / programming.
October 25th (last Saturday) 2 elders came to my door. I thought I’d calmed down over it but after listening to your podcast I’m kinda worked up again. I didn’t let them inside but spoke to them at the door. My husband and I had a good talk about it and he offered the concept of elitism too. I had not heard of that comparison in relation to Mormonism and now two people talking about the same concept in 1 week; what are the chances. J Not only does the label ‘elders’ promote elitism but also the claim of the priesthood and the One True church restored all definitely contributes to elitism via the off-the-charts inducement to ego. As I watched the elders I realized that it was the feel of the ego induced elitism that bolstered them and gave the illusion of “spirit” or power.
Elitism is hand in hand with the sense of being entitled. Last year I researched the psychology of entitlement and noticed that most sociopaths, psychopaths and criminals have one thing in common – a sense of entitlement. Apparently this sense causes a person to be self-absorbed. The church as an organization on the whole is very self serving to the point of insanity – willing to lie to keep the organization alive at any cost. The egomaniac sense of elitist / entitlement causes them to excuse their lies and deception. The 2 elders made a point of saying they had the priesthood which was restored to the earth. Ya don’t get any more elitist than that.
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Posted: 01 November 2014 04:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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lunaverse
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Hehe thanks everybody.
Heretic, did you listen to the words? It's a great song and very appropriate for the show.
Yeah, Joan. And the mind control used has a tendency to fake some of the symptoms of psychopathy. For instance, the dehumanization that occurs through many of the techniques (like us vs them and elitism) removes empathy and understanding for people in the out-group. Because it's not their fault, it's easy to be compassionate for them. They still think they're doing what is right, even though they aren't.
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Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
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Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
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Posted: 01 November 2014 08:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Thanks for your work.
Here's a bit of psyche blurb that hit me during my recent conversation with the elders.
After our visit I had to type it and vent. We talked about the 'anti' issue, which I complained that they only wanted me to go on lds sites and called non-lds sites anti, but that the lds sites don't have the truth and the non-lds sites have complete truth yet are called anti..... but they claim their here to share the truth. I told them that it doesn't measure up.
Here's a small excerpt from the conversation that pertains to programming.
You might find it interesting.
Bear in mind that I wrote this between midnight and 3 a.m. and it's a little garbled from emotional repitition.
The main problem in teaching me that they have the truth and then claiming that they let the “ Spirit” convert is a serious deception of epic and egregious proportions.
How can a person teach a lie, or deception or half truth as a truth? How can any “”spirit”” (I’m presuming they mean the Holy Spirit as described in the New testament) verify something that they’ve already conceded is a lie and announce that it is a truth?
That would mean that the Holy Spirit is a liar, like them?
In this case they aren’t getting a witness from any Holy Spirit, but more from a deceptive spirit who claims it’s true……just like them. This is why non Mormons claim they are not of God or Jesus, but of the devil.
These 2 missionaries just showed how and why non Mormons can easily make that conclusion without having to pray to their “spirit” to see if their self admitted lies (or milk) is actually true!
First I’ll describe the relaxation response as a spirit answer.
1)If you get an emotional feeling about there message then you still aren’t getting the truth. A person is getting a feeling based on inaccurate information they’ve been given. The testimony doesn’t count. But a person who quiets themselves and relaxes – especially if they’ve never done this type of quiet prayer before - can encounter what is known as the relaxation response. This response of emotional feelings has nothing to do with anything you’ve said, or anything that could be erroneously misconstrued or interpreted by yourself as a truth (since clearly you’ve agreed that lds.org and yourself do not care to teach the truth) and more accurately this response has to do with a sense of relaxation. It’s a natural by-product of achieving a calm relaxed state. This state, if achieved, releases chemicals and feelings. Since the feeling is already attached to the deceptive mormon teachings the person will have a belief in exactly the teachings they've been offered; no matter how erroneous.
Eastern beliefs can get into a relaxed state and call this Samadhi or Nirvana or bliss. It’s a state that has nothing to do with a yes or no answer --- it’s a state as a result of being still and quiet.
Here’s the kicker: That’s why many people pray and get no answer at all…....they can’t achieve this calm bliss relaxed state at the same time they’re praying about the Mormon “gospel”. They have to formulate some other criteria to ‘give’ them a Mormon testimony. They can induce feelings just by wanting it to be there. How many times have I watched a movie or read a book and induced feelings even though the book or movie is fiction! Since a Mormon generally has a reason for inducing the feelings (to fit in, to be approved, weak minded and gullible to accept the lies that the missionaries are teaching) and they get a Good feeling. This is what the Mormons call Moroni’s promise, so if you read the book of Mormon you don’t have to know all the “meat” (as the 2 missionaries told me last night) you just have to pray the “spirit” will convert.
If you manage to achieve this relaxation response in timing with the missionary teachings they will tell you it's a testimony. If not, it’s okay, they’ll try another tactic on you.
People of all beliefs or non-beliefs can attain this feeling without even asking anything attached prior. It shows that you’ve reached a calm and relaxed state and chemicals are releasing. Mormon teachings erroneously couple that with a belief that it will answer the Mormon challenge. It will ensure you, the missionaries and prophet or apostles that Mormonism are true even though they have not given the truth, not in its entirety or not even a reasonable portion of it. Somehow the person is to listen to you, the Mormon, teach them and accept that it is truth, given by a man of God who is ordained and by the only true church who has a prophet to teach the truth --- but not supply the truth and get them to have a “good” feeling that the absence of truth is in fact the truth – even though the person being taught is clueless as to what this truth actually entails based on the overt omission by these missionaries . Deception plain and simple!
I said, "Since you claim you're all about truth do you understand why people need to hold your feet to the fire and demand and expect something to corroborate on a level of your claimed truth?"
(that's when Elder 1 smiled and said, "the prophet can come here and answer your questions." Yep, he really said that to me. I just about screamed that he is a bigger con man than his predecessor J. Smith, but maintained my compsure surprisingly well.)
2) the confirmation bias: or as I like to call it ConFORMation bias because people are willing to confirm that which is taught them out of a desire to conFORM. It’s a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, or conforms ones feelings, leading to statistical errors.
You teach specific sanitized and white-washed information and that is an implanted preconception on purpose!.
You provide lds documents that support this preconception implant. When the preconception is false, as the elders / missionaries have already admitted to giving false or inaccurate untruthful “milk” teachings, then how accurate can the end feeling be? If a person is gullible and only go to your websites, because as you’ve said other sites are anti, then they may conform to the only information you allow them to view. And that information is not true or accurate. If a person wants to conform to the preconceived information for a variety of reasons (accepting, believing that the missionaries are teaching absolte truth in the name of Jesus restored, fitting in, gullible, sad and needs socialization, etc) then the person conforms their bias to accept the Mormon teachings. In other words, the person gets a “Mormon testimony”. This doesn’t mean it’s true, because we’ve already established that it was never true or accurate from the beginning up unto this present time. It only means that a psychological process called Confirmation bias has occurred and that’s what the Mormons are pawning off as a “spirit” testimony. The desire to conform, which confirms the missionaries lies as a truth, can come about through social contact. This is why the missionaires said that I should come to church, read the book of Mormon etc. It’s part of connecting to other people and making the confirmation bias more interesting to conform to.
Laws of obedience and rewards for obedience are part of a confirmation bias technique. Mormonism has that in spades! It generally ignites feelings and emotion, which is why it’s very important part of conversion to get the person to meetings and socialize.
3) cognitive bias: This is a pattern of deviation in judgment, whereby inferences and teachings about people and situations may be drawn in an illogical fashion. It’s slightly different from the confirmation bias. It generally ignites the mind and mental capacity. For example, you teach people milk and only milk – no meat. You make an erroneous statement that it’s impossible to teach people all the information; which is a blatant lie. You don’t teach me the complete truth and omit many serious issues leaving me with a completely different mental understanding of events. Then you say that you have taught the truth and are here to deliver God’s restored truth via prophet, priesthood etc. If I am at a vulnerable state and accept that you are what you say, (as Brittany the blogger convert has) that you are truthful priesthood men of God, then I will not nit-pick about the details you present. Clearly you have told me NOT to. If I go on any website that actually offers the truth you omit the missionary has already told me it’s anti material. If I want to please and fit in I will do as you say and obey! You’ve already stated that you are presenting truth restored. My judgement would then be skewed based on your presentation --- which we have already said isn’t accurate or completely true and which you’ve already told me you are here presenting the truth. This is an oxymoron – a lie but since you don’t tell people what you’re really doing they never get a chance to hear it. You are misleading people and they take you at your word. This is ALL acceptable and even encouraged by yourselves and the prophets who are supposed to be the one and only truthfilled part of this restoration you’re here to preach. This ignites the cognitive mental aspect and makes the investigator bias to your erroneous teaching. You claim it’s the spirit, but it’s not, it’s a subsequent mental response that bypasses the full cognitive aspect making it a cognitive bias. This coupled with the emotional aspect of confirmation bias and we have a perfect storm recipe for your deception in the name of God.
But make no mistake – it is not true, not correct and it is 100% deceptive in the name of God.
What do you stand to win?
If you bring the person to your church they might respond emotionally to the members and make a connection. This is your goal though. You want them to connect emotionally and physically. Therefore if they pray and get an emotional feeling that it’s true it is built on a need for an emotional social connection or a need to conform to your belief which you adamantly and fervently claim is true. Court of law and crime interrogators know this technique very well. Lawyers and interrogators can get a person to admit to something that isn’t true based on the lawyers strong stance as an authority. For example, a person might originally claim a car is blue. The person interrogating might counter them by stating that this person said the car was white, not blue. The person often caves to the authority and changes their previous story by accommodating to the authority and providing what the authority wants to hear. People tell people what they want to hear all the time, whether it’s really true or not. It takes a strong person to stand up and say, NO. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. Once a lawyer or interrogator ensnares a witness in this way their entire testimony can be thrown out. It happens all the time.
At the end of the conversation they said I haven't had a spirtual witness, been to church or read the BoM, etc and that's why I have these views.
That's when I came unglued and had to vent.
I didn't tell them I was an exmormon, RM, temple married, etc because I knew they'd use it against me. I decided to talk on my terms and not on theirs. Besides, my life is none of their business when they twist it to their own ends.
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Posted: 01 November 2014 09:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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The rap music was about the idiocy of Christianity and Islam and better than the usual rap music which is about drugs, guns, cars, money, girls, and the coolness these things are said to provide to gangsters, but three minutes by the clock is a lot longer than the industry standard for introductions to television and radio programs when credits are not running or announcers are not speaking.
Posted: 02 November 2014 09:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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lunaverse
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Joan, you would love my book. :)
Heretic, most rap is actually about many topics, including oppression of the state, etc. Gangster rap makes headlines, but isn't "most rap." Just sayin. :) But yes, it was a long intro.
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Any good books on Mixed Faith Marriage by Non-believers
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BOM musical audience response
by Joan
A Postmo Temple?
by Heretic
A Sad Twisted Truth About Mormonism
by DrW
Walkabout
by Discon2
What's Wrong with Natural?
by Denker
The unlearned farm boy spoke French? Maybe 'reformed French'?
by Heretic
The Mission President who had to resign!!
by Old Kinderhooker
Renaming things after a nice prophet.
by Old Kinderhooker
Mormon Apology
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Looks Like I Will Have The Opportunity to Help My Brother
by Strong Free & Thankful
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Lamay
When was Emma destroyed?
by Heretic
What kind of infrastructure, support and population...
by Heretic
Henry B. Eyring to Speak at the Vatican, does this mean decent "Catholic" composers will be brought back to the hymn book and ward Libraries?
by Bold Wish
Tours of Book of Mormon lands - Fraud?
by thalmar
Will The One True Mall end up here?
by Tessa
How the Church Blessed My Life Last Week
by MoMan
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
by Swearing Elder
Felt Compelled and a Stunned Silence Response
by Bold Wish
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"Chrysalis"
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Doubletree Suites
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Financial Report for 2009
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The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
November UVPM/CALM Support Meeting @ UVU
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[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
[Palmetto Post-Mor...]
Las Vegas Meetup: Heathen Thanksgiving!
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Knoxville Dinner Social
[East Tennessee Po...]
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November 2nd PostMormon Lecture 2014
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Hike Historic Boulder Dam Railroad Tunnels 10:00AM Saturday Oct 25th
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News article on polygamy article quotes me (link)
Posted: 31 October 2014 09:10 AM [ Ignore ]
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I was contacted a couple of days ago by a reporter for The Christian Post for comments on the church's polygamy article. He actually used my comments in his article:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-mormon-says-lds-church-is-misleading-joseph-smith-had-more-than-one-teenage-bride-128894/
Posted: 31 October 2014 09:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I like comments like this:
"It was highly unusual. And it was not just a matter of a 14-year old marrying. It was a 14-year-old marrying a 37-year-old man who already had over 20 wives, and thus illegal, according to the law."
Isn't there a quote from TSCC that mentions something like "Being deceitful, telling lies is also done by deliberately withholding information . . . "
No big news, they continue to lie, same old story, but congrats for having an opportunity to shed more light on that authorless "essay"
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Posted: 31 October 2014 09:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I'm so happy that the distortions and out right lies were pointed out. I hope to see more of this in the media. Thank you.
Posted: 31 October 2014 11:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Curious NeverMo
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Bold Wish:
I like comments like this:
"It was highly unusual. And it was not just a matter of a 14-year old marrying. It was a 14-year-old marrying a 37-year-old man who already had over 20 wives, and thus illegal, according to the law."
Isn't there a quote from TSCC that mentions something like "Being deceitful, telling lies is also done by deliberately withholding information . . . "
No big news, they continue to lie, same old story, but congrats for having an opportunity to shed more light on that authorless "essay"
WELL put!
Meanwhile, it must be said, the PR Dept did quite a masterful job of sanitizing a nightmare of unbridled licentiousness, exploitation and abuse of authority so that it sounded like a lapse of good judgment. But that single pithy statement referenced above puts it back into perspective. Well done!
The next step is to draw attention to how long an institution that clothed itself in moral authority chose to ignore that inconvenient truth and discredit honest people who were open about it.
Posted: 31 October 2014 12:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Bold Wish:
I like comments like this:
"It was highly unusual. And it was not just a matter of a 14-year old marrying. It was a 14-year-old marrying a 37-year-old man who already had over 20 wives, and thus illegal, according to the law."
Isn't there a quote from TSCC that mentions something like "Being deceitful, telling lies is also done by deliberately withholding information . . . "
No big news, they continue to lie, same old story, but congrats for having an opportunity to shed more light on that authorless "essay"
This is the reference: It's in the Priesthood/Relief Society manual "Gospel Principles", chapter 31, from the top of page 181:
-
To Lie Is Dishonest
Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this” (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage.
(I emphasized the parts I like in boldface). In the BoM and the PoGP, we find the uniquely mormon claim that Satan is the "father of all lies". (Moses 4:4; Ether 8:25; 2 Nephi 2:18) This does not appear anywhere in the Bible. As far as TSCC is concerned, if it's a lie, it's from Satan.
It doesn't look too good for the mormons...
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Posted: 31 October 2014 02:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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RPackham:
I was contacted a couple of days ago by a reporter for The Christian Post for comments on the church's polygamy article. He actually used my comments in his article:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-mormon-says-lds-church-is-misleading-joseph-smith-had-more-than-one-teenage-bride-128894/
Richard, congratulations on being quoted. You're statements are a kind of centerpiece of the article. You have been and continue to be a significant thorn in the side of the Mormon Church. That must give you some degree of satisfaction. Well done, thou good and faithful servant.
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Posted: 31 October 2014 03:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
(I emphasized the parts I like in boldface). In the BoM and the PoGP, we find the uniquely mormon claim that Satan is the "father of all lies". (Moses 4:4; Ether 8:25; 2 Nephi 2:18) This does not appear anywhere in the Bible. As far as TSCC is concerned, if it's a lie, it's from Satan.
It doesn't look too good for the mormons...
Actually, John 8:44 says the same thing:
"Ye are of your father the devil... He...abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
For more examples of Mormon lying, see my article at http://packham.n4m.org/lying.htm
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Turned up the heat in Sacrament Meeting today.
Posted: 26 October 2014 12:27 PM [ Ignore ]
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We got there about 15 minutes early and DW mentioned that she thought it was cold. The pew we were sitting in is right next to the thermostat. So I reached over and cranked it full hot. It stayed that way for about 5 minutes till Old Lard Butt, who owns the back row, got up and turned it down. After he turned around to go back to his seat, I reached over and turned it right back up. 5 minutes later he is back turning it down. I didn’t want DW to be cold so I turned it right back up, again. It stayed that way the rest of the meeting. Old men were taking off jackets. I must have seen at least 15 paper fans made from programs going. People were wiping sweat from their foreheads. For a brief moment, I was happy and content. After the meeting, Old Lard Butt gave me the dirtiest look. I am home now and the happy and content is gone, I’m still pissed at the church. Oh well.
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Posted: 26 October 2014 02:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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The thing that really annoyed me when attending church, was how cold the thermostat was set in the summer. The women would be freezing because the men set the temperature to be comfortable while wearing a suit coat. It made no sense and was a waste of electricity. I heard that in one ward the men back pedaled a little bit when some women went home because it was too cold. Stupid!
Posted: 26 October 2014 02:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I remember that sometimes our little chapel was so cold that it gave some of us cold sores and stuff. Basically if it was hot in the chapel, it was way too warm in the classrooms. Go figure..but I love the fact that you did your own version of "turning on"!
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Posted: 26 October 2014 06:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Great story! I laughed out loud.
The building I used to go to was usually too cold in both the summer and winter. Sometimes in summer I would wear a jacket while sitting in church. Then when I left the building after the meeting, I would take off the jacket as quickly as possible and start sweating in the Arizona heat on the way home.
Posted: 27 October 2014 01:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Love it.
Posted: 28 October 2014 04:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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I remember when I was young I was always freezing and wondered why it was so cold and one of my parents mentioned it was because the thermostat was controlled by adult men wearing three layers of clothes.
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Posted: 28 October 2014 07:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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'Course you didn't ask the poor women suffering from "hot flashes" how they felt about the heat wave. Ah well.
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Posted: 31 October 2014 07:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Once upon a time, when I went to church, I was always freezing.
Then, I worked at a place where everyone else loved it icebox cold. I could never figure out what could be so wrong with me.
Well, I did figure it out. I wasn't wearing old-fashioned long underwear!
Posted: 01 November 2014 05:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Next time put a dab of SuperGlue on it so once set it can't be turned down and watch the other guy get frustrated.
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Posted: 01 November 2014 04:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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That's a great story. Made me laugh admist an otherwise negative day.
I never had this problem at the wards I grew up in, even in Sacramento in the middle of the summer. I do remember the small acts of rebellion.
Hold on to that happy feeling and do what you need to in order to find it again.
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How the Church Blessed My Life Last Week
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The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
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Response to the Plural Marriage in Kirtland & Nauvoo Essay
Posted: 27 October 2014 01:27 PM [ Ignore ]
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This is worth a quick read.... http://roadkilldelight.com/NOM/PolygamyEssay.pdf
Posted: 27 October 2014 01:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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That's a good essay, one which can easily be shared with others. Thanks for the link!
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 27 October 2014 02:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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BITE ME
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Matter Unorganized:
That's a good essay, one which can easily be shared with others. Thanks for the link!
U bet!
Posted: 27 October 2014 02:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Thanks. It's nice and clean and, as pointed out, can be readily shared. Something that I like to observe in LDS apologetics is the clarity of language and content. I read the essay and then I read this response. The second is far more direct and clear. Maybe Satan is a better writer. I bet that drives God crazy.
Posted: 27 October 2014 03:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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My Turn
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I am printing this out. I am meeting an old good TBM friend and cousin tomorrow. We are having a heart to heart and you know..this will help. Thank you so much! Vickie
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Posted: 27 October 2014 06:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Thanks everyone, I hope it helps you and people you care about. The credit all goes to Eric. He did a fantastic job with it. It will always be available at that link. If he makes any revisions, it'll automatically updated.
Posted: 01 November 2014 08:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Thanks for sharing that.
Would you consider compiling info on other essays as well and putting them online?
I know there is a lot of info that the essays have left out and it would be great if there was an online site that offered all the data they missed.
The rebuttal info might get long but it would be great to have it all in one place.
Don't you think?
If I wasn't so lazy I'd do something up on wordpress myself.
hmmm, maybe I should.
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Miss O
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Posted: 01 November 2014 09:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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I’d print out the essay on the website in addition to the link, in case the anonymous writer(s) of the essay decide to change it and forget to mention it to the reader.
It’s been known to happen before.
Here are a few more things that are really crucial points for me: (just sharing)
1. Lds apologists also teach that it was common for 14 yr olds to be married. This is not accurate. Marrying as a teen may have been practiced in some locations more than others, but marrying at 14 was not the norm. If a 14 yr old married it was to boys closer to their age group. Smith was considered very old when he married the young girls. It’s unclear if they were even old enough to conceive children based on female maturation in that era, which was the alleged purpose of polygamy.
Older men marrying young girls was not socially acceptable, which is why they were driven out and another reason polygamy was scandalized among non Mormons.
7. Mormons vehemently state that polygamy was the past and they do not practice it anymore. They disavow it completely. This is not accurate. The doctrine requires the acceptance of polygamy as an eternal practice. It is irrelevant that they don’t practice it in this life when they will practice it as an accepted doctrine in their next life. By claiming that it’s in the past they denounce their eternal place in the polygamous doctrine of Mormonism and forget about this doctrine. Men are still sealed to more than one wife if they remarry. This constitutes a polygamous situation even if one of the spouses is deceased.
9 Most of the members didn’t know about polygamy, for example Smith’s councillor, William Law. His wife was propositioned by Smith. This deceit and cover-up put in motion Law’s decision to print the truth and expose Smith’s lies in the Nauvoo Expositor paper. Smith tried to control and squash freedom of speech to hide his polygamous acts and set out to destroy the printing press. Mormons think he was martyred and aren’t taught the details of this event. During Smith’s attempt to destroy the press he was seized and put in jail. He was killed while defending himself with a gun in his hand – not an innocent martyr at all.
His death was all a result of his polygamous lies. The essay doesn't bother to mention that.
There is a whole other mormon interpretation of Smith's alleged "martyrdom".
Maybe the writers will produce an essay lying about that as well, but the complex web intricately dove-tails with other lies in other areas, until they have lied themselves into their own snare. More lies only tighten the snare around them. It's all been built on a foundation of lies and they think that more lies will explain or undo their original lies.
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Miss O
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Posted: 02 November 2014 04:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Bold Wish
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Joan:
Mormons think he was martyred and aren’t taught the details of this event. During Smith’s attempt to destroy the press he was seized and put in jail. He was killed while defending himself with a gun in his hand – not an innocent martyr at all.
His death was all a result of his polygamous lies. The essay doesn't bother to mention that.
Not arguing with you here Joan - just my point of view . . . I thought Mister Smith fired his pistol after shots were fired into the room where they were being held captive. If that's true then I would not blame him for freaking out and firing back to defend his life and the lives of the others.
No, he was far from being a martyr (as mentioned in one of their hymns) but he didn't deserve to have people shoot inside the room. I don't blame him for fighting back and I don't think he deserved to die for what he had done.
I really wish his life had been spared because it wouldn't surprise me if he had continued to live then the facts about his life would have played out, mormons would be seen for what they were: generally good people merely duped by a sex hungry, power hungry con man, and then the entire "religion" would have probably died out with much less violence.
As it turned out, early mormonism was like one of those damn weeds in the sidewalk - you can kill it but it somehow it came back to life and continued to grow.
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Posted: 02 November 2014 05:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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One thing that's always puzzled me is what became of the inevitable offspring from Smith's polygamous wives? Brigham Young had 55 children, and when I was attending church as a kid we were always encountering people who proudly acknowledged having BY in their geneology. I don't recall ever hearing about people who traced their ancestry to JS. I understand why this would be a problem in terms of church history, but biology is biology.
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Posted: 02 November 2014 09:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Joan:
::snipped::
1. Lds apologists also teach that it was common for 14 yr olds to be married. This is not accurate. Marrying as a teen may have been practiced in some locations more than others, but marrying at 14 was not the norm. If a 14 yr old married it was to boys closer to their age group. Smith was considered very old when he married the young girls. It’s unclear if they were even old enough to conceive children based on female maturation in that era, which was the alleged purpose of polygamy.
Older men marrying young girls was not socially acceptable, which is why they were driven out and another reason polygamy was scandalized among non Mormons.
::snipped::
I have read that the average age of estrus at that time was 23 years old. If you make a correlation to the ages of estrus and marriage today that's particularly creepy.
I must say, however, that I've never seen the actual research on this, just someone asserting the fact.
Posted: 02 November 2014 06:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Joan
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Bold Wish:
Joan:
Mormons think he was martyred and aren’t taught the details of this event. During Smith’s attempt to destroy the press he was seized and put in jail. He was killed while defending himself with a gun in his hand – not an innocent martyr at all.
His death was all a result of his polygamous lies. The essay doesn't bother to mention that.
Not arguing with you here Joan - just my point of view . . . I thought Mister Smith fired his pistol after shots were fired into the room where they were being held captive. If that's true then I would not blame him for freaking out and firing back to defend his life and the lives of the others.
No, he was far from being a martyr (as mentioned in one of their hymns) but he didn't deserve to have people shoot inside the room. I don't blame him for fighting back and I don't think he deserved to die for what he had done.
I really wish his life had been spared because it wouldn't surprise me if he had continued to live then the facts about his life would have played out, mormons would be seen for what they were: generally good people merely duped by a sex hungry, power hungry con man, and then the entire "religion" would have probably died out with much less violence.
As it turned out, early mormonism was like one of those damn weeds in the sidewalk - you can kill it but it somehow it came back to life and continued to grow.
I hope it doesn't come off sounding like I'm arguing with you either. That's not my intention.
I worded the sentence wrong. It was late at night and my sentence structure showed it. I can always tell when I'm too tired and shouldn't be typing ....my German heritage shows up (growing up with parents who spoke English as a 2nd language and often spoke English the way they'd translate it word for word.) That's when I lose all sense of proper sentence structure and my structure becomes a freakish hybrid.
The sentence should have read more along the lines of - he defended himself and used a gun.
I was taught that JS was like a lamb to the slaughter, innocent, meek and mild, didn't defend himself, etc.
Were you taught this too or was it just me?
I sure wasn't taught that he had a gun, which he shot.
I like your point and agree that I would have done the same, and I don't blame him for it, but it's sure not the same story I was taught about a prophet who didn't raise a hand in the face of his enemy.
I don't think he deserved to die for a desire to destroy the press and end the exposure of his lies either. Well, sometimes I think he deserved to die but not for that reason.
I'd like to see an lds essay on the events leading to his death.
I suspect this event added to the already prevalent lds persecution complex.
I like your weed analogy.
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Miss O
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Posted: 03 November 2014 06:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
Hank
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Joan:
Bold Wish:
Joan:
Mormons think he was martyred and aren’t taught the details of this event. During Smith’s attempt to destroy the press he was seized and put in jail. He was killed while defending himself with a gun in his hand – not an innocent martyr at all.
His death was all a result of his polygamous lies. The essay doesn't bother to mention that.
Not arguing with you here Joan - just my point of view . . . I thought Mister Smith fired his pistol after shots were fired into the room where they were being held captive. If that's true then I would not blame him for freaking out and firing back to defend his life and the lives of the others.
No, he was far from being a martyr (as mentioned in one of their hymns) but he didn't deserve to have people shoot inside the room. I don't blame him for fighting back and I don't think he deserved to die for what he had done.
I really wish his life had been spared because it wouldn't surprise me if he had continued to live then the facts about his life would have played out, mormons would be seen for what they were: generally good people merely duped by a sex hungry, power hungry con man, and then the entire "religion" would have probably died out with much less violence.
As it turned out, early mormonism was like one of those damn weeds in the sidewalk - you can kill it but it somehow it came back to life and continued to grow.
I hope it doesn't come off sounding like I'm arguing with you either. That's not my intention.
I worded the sentence wrong. It was late at night and my sentence structure showed it. I can always tell when I'm too tired and shouldn't be typing ....my German heritage shows up (growing up with parents who spoke English as a 2nd language and often spoke English the way they'd translate it word for word.) That's when I lose all sense of proper sentence structure and my structure becomes a freakish hybrid.
The sentence should have read more along the lines of - he defended himself and used a gun.
I was taught that JS was like a lamb to the slaughter, innocent, meek and mild, didn't defend himself, etc.
Were you taught this too or was it just me?
I sure wasn't taught that he had a gun, which he shot.
I like your point and agree that I would have done the same, and I don't blame him for it, but it's sure not the same story I was taught about a prophet who didn't raise a hand in the face of his enemy.
I don't think he deserved to die for a desire to destroy the press and end the exposure of his lies either. Well, sometimes I think he deserved to die but not for that reason.
I'd like to see an lds essay on the events leading to his death.
I suspect this event added to the already prevalent lds persecution complex.
I like your weed analogy.
Hyrum was shot in the face and fell back from the door onto the floor. Somehow, with a bullet in his head he manages to exclaim "I am a dead man!". Sadly, he didn't get a chance to use the pistol he had.
At that point, JS took out his 6 shooter and tried firing all rounds (3 were duds), shooting 3 people. In my opinion, if anyone else was involved I couldn't blame them for defending themselves. BUT.....
According to the stories, he made it sound like he knew he was going to be killed/martyred. If that's the case, why defend yourself? Think of any of the apostles of the Bible. Can you imagine Peter or Paul (etc.) making a publuc statement that they would rather die than deny Christ and then when the prison guards are coming to execute him, Paul whips out with a sword and fights to the death? Martyr? Really?
Secondly, the gun was smuggled in. When a gun was offered openly to all present, JS jumped on the chance and took it. Smuggling/weapons in jail was illegal even back then...so much for sustaining the law.
Posted: 03 November 2014 06:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Yup. Don't know too many lambs who carry a gun, even if on the way to the slaughter.
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Posted: 03 November 2014 10:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Hank:
According to the stories, he made it sound like he knew he was going to be killed/martyred. If that's the case, why defend yourself? Think of any of the apostles of the Bible. Can you imagine Peter or Paul (etc.) making a publuc statement that they would rather die than deny Christ and then when the prison guards are coming to execute him, Paul whips out with a sword and fights to the death? Martyr? Really?
Secondly, the gun was smuggled in. When a gun was offered openly to all present, JS jumped on the chance and took it. Smuggling/weapons in jail was illegal even back then...so much for sustaining the law.
Good points. I didn't think of those.
GA Mopologist spin never seems to stop.
It's like a Sherlock Holmes sleuthing event with the focus on the mormon lie machine ..... or like the Where's Waldo of mormon lies -- try to find the lie(s).
Can you spot it?
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Miss O
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Posted: 03 November 2014 11:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
Hank
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Joan:
Hank:
According to the stories, he made it sound like he knew he was going to be killed/martyred. If that's the case, why defend yourself? Think of any of the apostles of the Bible. Can you imagine Peter or Paul (etc.) making a publuc statement that they would rather die than deny Christ and then when the prison guards are coming to execute him, Paul whips out with a sword and fights to the death? Martyr? Really?
Secondly, the gun was smuggled in. When a gun was offered openly to all present, JS jumped on the chance and took it. Smuggling/weapons in jail was illegal even back then...so much for sustaining the law.
Good points. I didn't think of those.
GA Mopologist spin never seems to stop.
It's like a Sherlock Holmes sleuthing event with the focus on the mormon lie machine ..... or like the Where's Waldo of mormon lies -- try to find the lie(s).
Can you spot it?
It is indeed like a Where's Waldo and sometimes finding the truth is difficult. Especially with some of the literature out there that was put out by religious zealots to disprove JS. Their stories often streched the truth in some points and was completely wrong in others. And the church is great at sanitizing their history.
I look at it this way...just like police taking statements from both parties of a domestic violence call. Both parties will state their side in a way that favors their point of view, probably even fib a little. As they say, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Same with LDS history. If you take all the accusations of both sides and look for the middle, what you'll find is more likely the truth. Sadly, with JS, even if you dismissed half of the accusations against him, he was still a rather slimy dude.
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Daylight Atheism reviews Recovering Agency
Posted: 29 October 2014 01:14 PM [ Ignore ]
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Adam Lee at Daylight Atheism did a good review of Recovering Agency. The comments are funny. The kind of exchange I'm used to seeing.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2014/10/book-review-recovering-agency/
It's also funny how people are surprised at the 22 hours estimate. I got that estimate with the help of PostMos here, many years ago. My book includes the breakdown of the hours. It sure doesn't seem like it when you're in, but yeah, that's about right for an average active, participating Mormon.
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Posted: 29 October 2014 06:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Great and very positive review.
You should feel justifiably proud and satisfied.
I have my preview on my Kindle, but have to reduce the cue in front a tad first.
Daryl
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Posted: 29 October 2014 08:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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lunaverse:
snip
It's also funny how people are surprised at the 22 hours estimate. I got that estimate with the help of PostMos here, many years ago. My book includes the breakdown of the hours. It sure doesn't seem like it when you're in, but yeah, that's about right for an average active, participating Mormon.
I think most people leaving comments there just don't realize what family time is when your parents are part of the program. Mormons who're living right don't spend time with their families except when there family is acting as an extension of the "church".
Some commenter said active Mormons don't spend more than a "handful of hours" on the church. That would mean three hours on Sundays for the bloc of meetings and two hours on Mondays for Family Home Evening. That's five hours, and that's a handful. What about daily personal and family scripture study? That's another 30 to 45 minutes per day, which brings the total to at least 8 hours per week.
Don't forget personal prayer! Don't forget Home/Visiting Teaching! Don't forget to prepare for your Sunday or Wednesday calling! Don't forget to go to Mutual and/or take your kids there! Don't neglect to attend the temple at least once monthly: they are so ####### close now that you can't justify not making that 2 to 4 hour drive! If you live in Utah, where a plurality of morning live, you're expected to attend the temple weekly.
Long and short: if you're not spending at least 40 hours per week on church shit, the church wants more of your time. Even then, they want more if there's more to give, so long as it doesn't start cutting into your income and reducing those tithing checks.
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Posted: 29 October 2014 10:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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lunaverse:
Adam Lee at Daylight Atheism did a good review of Recovering Agency. The comments are funny. The kind of exchange I'm used to seeing.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2014/10/book-review-recovering-agency/
It's also funny how people are surprised at the 22 hours estimate. I got that estimate with the help of PostMos here, many years ago. My book includes the breakdown of the hours. It sure doesn't seem like it when you're in, but yeah, that's about right for an average active, participating Mormon.
That sounds about right. I figure I used to spend around 20 hours a week. I almost memorized those silly lessons besides all the other stuff. No wonder family starts being put on the back burner. How I wish I had been ripped off by Bernie Maddof instead of LDS, Inc. At least Bernie would have only taken my money.
Congratulations Luna! All your hard work is paying off. You are making the world a better place one reader at a time!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 30 October 2014 08:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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And lots of those "gold stars" showing up now. Goes to show how really worthwhile your efforts were Luna. Thank you for connecting all those dots like you did for the reading public and portraying it for what it really is.
Posted: 30 October 2014 01:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Thanks, Daryl. ^_^
Longtimer, yeah, until you sit down and list them, you don't realize. Same with all the commandments. Doesn't seem like many till you put them on paper.
Thanks, Strong & Free! And thanks, former victim. :)
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Any good books on Mixed Faith Marriage by Non-believers
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Felt Compelled and a Stunned Silence Response
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Bishop’s Interviews or PPIs
Posted: 29 October 2014 12:57 PM [ Ignore ]
claire2
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In readng many posts about bishops grilling boys about masterbation and porn use, the lastest one being that the question is "When did you last view porn?", not "Do you, have you viewed porn?", I am getting pretty upset. And now I have a bit of a moral dillema.
So today I'm thinking about my 13-year-old son who still attends church with his dad. I asked him about it, and he thinks he believes, and he likes going. It's something he and his dad have in common and can do together. Plus he has friends there and really likes scouts.
Anyway, it has taken me some time and separation to not just think everything the church does is right and normal. I didn't know that it was inappropriate for an adult authority figure to ask personal questions of a sexual nature of a teen. I thought it was normal. Now I know better.
I have already told my son that masturbation is not a sin, and it is perfectly normal and acceptable for him to do it. I told my older son that, too, when I was still a TBM. I NEVER thought masterbation was the black, evil sin they always told us it was. But what I want to do now is tell him that he should not answer the bishop's questions of a sexual nature. But that's a lot of pressure to put on a 13-year-old, to tell him to just say, I won't answer that. He's waaaay to shy and reserved, as well.
So, my dillema...I want to tell him to simply LIE to the bishop and say No to every question. Now, am I teaching my child that lying is okay?
Posted: 29 October 2014 01:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Sossy
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Maybe the best thing for you to do is to take the initiative and tell the bishop that you will not allow your son to be inteviewed without you being present in the interview. That way you can monitor the appropriateness of the questions and you can also take the pressure off of your son by personally taking the heat.
Your son does not need to hear the conversation you have with the bishop about what you will allow your child to be asked, so he won't be directly in the line of fire. You are the parent and you have the final say in what the bishop can ask your child. You do not have to consent to these perverted interviews.
Posted: 29 October 2014 04:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Born Free
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Claire2,
While I strongly empathesise with your dilemma, I would recommend against encouraging your son to lie as a way to address this.
While you and I may agree that the Church lies through its teeth all the time, and therefore we could feel justified in treating it with the contempt it deserves, that risks overlooking the price that lying will likely exact upon your son.
As mature adults, I think there can be times in our lives when lies are not unethical, but a young mind is not ready for such moral complexity.
While the alternatives may be more confronting for you, I'd recommend mustering the courage, advice and support to go that pathway.
Can I suggest you consider something like drafting a skillfull (and most assertively worded) letter for the Bishop, stating that as a parent you regard his asking probing sexual questions about your son's personal business, as a gross, inappropriate, damaging and therefore unauthorised invasion of his privacy, and that you will vigorously block any attempt to do so.
You might consider adding, that you believe that if your son wants to raise such matters in a professional setting, with suitably qualified people, who are in ongoing professional supervision, then that is his business, but that as you see the Bishop as neither adequately trained, qualified or supervised to delve into such matters, then you regard any such initiative as sexually abusive and ethically unacceptable, and will respond accordingly.
That should deal with the Bishop (and send him scurrying for cover).
It might be wise to hand a copy to your son (and member spouse), and advise them that you are available to discuss the content at any time. You might explain that while you were a member you saw these matters quite differently, but that you now see that as not unlike a Catholic family trusting their priest to have unsupervised time alone with children, and that you now see nothing acceptable whatsoever about such dynamics.
Daryl
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Posted: 29 October 2014 05:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Stigmata
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Thank you so much Claire2 for bringing up this subject! I currently have 2 boys in deacons and a daughter who will soon be in the youth program as well. I really worry about the inappropriateness of youth interviews. I can remember lying during mine and feeling the anxiety and shame that the bishop knew I was lying, and feeling that there was something terribly wrong with me an that I was the only one who masterbated. Now of course I realize that it is unusual for a teenager to have never had a go at it. Nonetheless those interviews contributed to a weak self esteem during that time. I want my kids to have a different experience, and I now view youth interviews as an invasion of privacy and highly inappropriate.
Sossy recommends sitting in on the interview to monitor and intercept inappropriate boundary crossing questions. Has anyone done this?? If so, please share your experience.
I really appreciate Daryl's advice - writing a firm, boundary setting letter. But I wonder, would a bishop disregard that? His "mantle" has no boundaries? Again, if anyone has experience with this please share!!
Thanks all
Posted: 29 October 2014 06:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Elder OldDog
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I agree with Born Free.
Formulating a strategy such as BF suggests, or any strategy, will have a consequence that you should consider before putting any plan into action: How is your bishop going to react.
Based on my personality, were I your TBM bishop, I'd be a bit miffed that not only my authority was being challenged, but also my character. (Although my reaction would be a lot different if the party to be interviewed were a Beehive...) Whether I actually believed it or not, I would want to impress on you and your son what a serious sin masturbation is and how a frank conversation, bishop to young man, would be soooo spiritually beneficial to your son, who probably would prefer discussing this matter with an understanding, divinely inspired spiritual leader, rather than a parent. Blah-shit, blah-shit, blah-shit...
On one side of make-believe-me-as-bishop would be Bishop Milquetoast, who would stutter and welcome you to sit in on the interview and would ask a milquetoast-like question, such as, "you know that touching yourself is bad, don't you?" And your son would nod and start to say something, but bishop Milquetoast would interrupt and thank you both for coming in.
On the other side would be Bishop Studhood, who would stare at you, turn away wordlessly, and then call your husband to ask him if he knew what you'd had the temerity to do, right to his Father of the Ward face!!!! It would probably go south from there. Very south...
Which might help your husband see things differently!
Posted: 29 October 2014 06:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Something I realized years ago: In what context is it OK for a middle-aged school teacher to ask a teenaged girl (or boy) abou their sexual practices? In what context would they not suspend that teacher or throw his sorry ass into court, and possibly prison?
When that school teacher also happens to be a bishop, and the teen is in his ward.
I ask... What's the difference? I ask ANY believing mormon, what's the difference?
There is no difference. I don't care if the bishop is a stockbroker, a lawyer, a doctor, a janitor, a garbage man, a school teacher, or whatever his occupation is. In any other context, if a man asked a teen about their sexual practices, all hell would break loose.
Why should mormon bishops get a free pass?
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Posted: 30 October 2014 05:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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OldSoul
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Just have him answer "I don't know, when was the last time you beat your wife?"
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Posted: 30 October 2014 06:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Elder Skelter
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So, here is my experience with this...
As a kid, I was asked in all of those interviews if I was experienced with the one-armed bandit.
Sometimes I lied, sometimes I didn't. When I said that I had, I was made to feel guilty, dirty, and ashamed. When I lied, I felt the same way, believing it was evil from the indoctrination.
I remember the questions also being convoluted.
"Do you masturbate?" - Bishop A.
"Do you Masturbate frequently?" - Bishop B.
"Do you obey The Law of Chastity?" - Bishop C.
"When you Masturbate, was porn involved?" - Bishop D.
Having gone through all that mess, NEVER with a parent involved in the interviews, I swore that nobody, would interview my kids without me being present.
Here's what happened when I made that clear.
1. They sorta stopped asking me to interview my kids.
2. They tried end-running the interview appointments through my spouse.
3. When I got wind of that, I notified everyone, that I was to be involved without deviation.
4. They asked again, I indicated I would ask my kid if he wanted to go. I did, kid said no, and I returned and reported.
5. The request came through again on a couple of occassions and the same procedure was followed.
6. They stopped asking. I'm also avoided like the plague with all church related stuff.
Mission accomplished.
If an interview actually ends up occuring and I am present and the masturbating question comes up I have a few questions for the interviewer regarding the topic of my own.
1. "Bishop, Counselor, etc. Have you ever Masturbated?" "If so, how often?"
2. "Have you ever looked at Porn? If so, what kind?"
3. "Did you feel uncomfortable when a grown man you trusted as a spiritual leader asked you those questions?"
4. How do you personally feel about another grown man asking your son or daughter about Masturbating?"
5. If your boss asked you this question, at your job would you consider it sexual harassment?"
Etc...I have a few more.
Turn the tables on the questioner, maybe this horseshit will end.
Go with your kid to the interviews...
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Posted: 30 October 2014 07:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Tessa
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Tell your son that if he must meet with the Bishop, that you will accompany him. Any "inappropriate" questions will be fielded by you, the adult. No other non-related "adult" should be alone with any child under age 21 in a room. It's illegal.
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Posted: 30 October 2014 12:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Nephi
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Tessa:
Tell your son that if he must meet with the Bishop, that you will accompany him. Any "inappropriate" questions will be fielded by you, the adult. No other non-related "adult" should be alone with any child under age 21 in a room. It's illegal.
No, it is not illegal in most US Jurisdictions.
At 18 they are old enough to vote. To enlist in the military. To do many things they were not eligible for the day before that magic birthday. 21 is a biggie in many places mainly because it makes them old enough to legally buy alcoholic beverages. Stupid that a kid can enlist and shoot 'enemies' at 18 but not legally drink until 21 but those who make the laws aren't that bright in the first place.
As long as your kid is a minor you can insist on being anywhere you want, church or cops. After that it is not so clear.
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Posted: 30 October 2014 08:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
claire2
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Thank you, everyone, for the thoughtful comments and advice. I will be using it!
Posted: 31 October 2014 03:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Tessa
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As I read the original post, the child was 13....so should not be left alone with an adult in a room, being subjected to sexual questions...PERIOD!!!
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 31 October 2014 07:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
copostmo
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I struggled to get the bishop of my children to stop asking them questions of a sexual nature. I ended up telling him that he would need to agree to two conditions if he wanted to interview any of my children:
The only question relating to sexuality that you may ask them is “Do you live the law of chastity?” No follow-up questions, no questions about masturbation, no defining the law of chastity—nothing else.
I will sit in on all interviews with our children. You, or any other Church leader, may not meet with any of our children without me present.
The bishop eventually agreed to those conditions, and I've been sitting in on the interviews ever since. I think that sitting in on the interviews has been beneficial. In addition to ensuring that no sexual questions be asked, I think the bishop has been very careful in what he says to my kids with me present. The interviews have been very mild, with little indoctrination.
I posted about my interaction with this bishop and subsequent interaction with the stake presidency regarding this issue:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,925488,925488#msg-925488
I also emailed several Christian ministers to get their take on the Mormon practice of asking sexually invasive questions during interviews with youth. Their responses are posted here:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,925430,925430#msg-925430
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I am not sure what to say to the SM prayer coordinator…
Posted: 29 October 2014 08:41 AM [ Ignore ]
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WinstonSmith
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I just listened to a message on my cell phone. It was Sister [name omitted] asking me to say a prayer in SM. I didn't even know that such a calling existed. She is the sweetest 80+ year old woman that I have ever met. Now I sit here wondering what happens when she calls and someone responds by saying, I am not allowed to pray in public meetings, or in my case I don't believe in god. The bishop really needs to give her a "do not call list", he knows I am an Atheist.
Anyway, I am not sure the best words to use in saying No?
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Posted: 29 October 2014 09:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Can your wife do it for you? Just call and say I may be late or need to leave early whichever is applicable, but my wife would be happy to do it.
Does your bishop know your situation? If he does I would tell him that there should be a list made for that lady that does not include you.
Posted: 29 October 2014 09:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I always thought the same thing about being put on a "do not participate list".. in my priest quorum growing up the second assistant would ask us priests to bless the sacrament the next week to ya knwo to get us there on time, I would have to say no in front of the whole quorum cause of my "masterbation problem" that the bishop knew of, I wish I couldve been on a list that I wouldnt get asked every single week and have to make up an excuse in front of my neighborhood friends of why I was going to be late to sacrament meeting. Sucks to make stupid excuses. I guess the bishop didnt want to tell my second assistant that I was "unworthy" .. still so embarrassing!
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Posted: 29 October 2014 10:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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Thank you for your invitation, but I am unable to accept at this time.
No need to explain further. A gracious person will accept this reply.
If she asks why, just repeat "I'm sorry, I can't accept."
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Posted: 29 October 2014 11:16 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Ignore. Don't show up to church. Get caller ID and don't pick up the phone if it's a Mormon.
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Posted: 29 October 2014 11:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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WinstonSmith:
I just listened to a message on my cell phone. It was Sister [name omitted] asking me to say a prayer in SM. I didn't even know that such a calling existed. She is the sweetest 80+ year old woman that I have ever met. Now I sit here wondering what happens when she calls and someone responds by saying, I am not allowed to pray in public meetings, or in my case I don't believe in god. The bishop really needs to give her a "do not call list", he knows I am an Atheist.
Anyway, I am not sure the best words to use in saying No?
If I was talking to her, live on the phone, I would be really tempted to say...
"Since I am atheist, what I have to say to the members would probably not be appreciated in SM......and I don't think you would want to hear it either."
Posted: 29 October 2014 12:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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WinstonSmith
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dave (e_nomo):
Thank you for your invitation, but I am unable to accept at this time.
No need to explain further. A gracious person will accept this reply.
If she asks why, just repeat "I'm sorry, I can't accept."
Thanks Dave!!!
I said your your statement word for word---it went well until she asked if I would say the prayer another week---that's is when it became awkward---in the end I have now become de-listed.
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Posted: 29 October 2014 12:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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BlackSheep:
I always thought the same thing about being put on a "do not participate list".. in my priest quorum growing up the second assistant would ask us priests to bless the sacrament the next week to ya knwo to get us there on time, I would have to say no in front of the whole quorum cause of my "masterbation problem" that the bishop knew of, I wish I couldve been on a list that I wouldnt get asked every single week and have to make up an excuse in front of my neighborhood friends of why I was going to be late to sacrament meeting. Sucks to make stupid excuses. I guess the bishop didnt want to tell my second assistant that I was "unworthy" .. still so embarrassing!
I wish I knew then that it wasn't any of the bishops business, besides masterbation was never a problem for me---I did it rather well.
In all seriousness that is a disturbing fact about the Church---their ability to publically shame people.
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Posted: 29 October 2014 12:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Troubled Wife
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It's a moot point now, but, I agree with MU... just politely tell her you aren't available, and then I'd add that I am not comfortable at this time, and wouldn't be available in the forseeable future to give a public prayer.
Sorry that it then put you on the spot when she furthered it by asking if you could pray in the future. But, I'm pretty sure you handled it well.
I still remember being told I was giving a talk in SM. I remember telling the coordinator that I would NOT be giving that talk. He told me they had noone else. I told him that he'd better prepare a good one because I was NOT going to be giving any more talks in SM.
I later found out that they did, indeed, put me on the program, and had some "free time" for an impromptu testimony session because I didn't show.
The gaul of some people!
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Posted: 29 October 2014 02:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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WinstonSmith:
dave (e_nomo):
Thank you for your invitation, but I am unable to accept at this time.
No need to explain further. A gracious person will accept this reply.
If she asks why, just repeat "I'm sorry, I can't accept."
Thanks Dave!!!
I said your your statement word for word---it went well until she asked if I would say the prayer another week---that's is when it became awkward---in the end I have now become de-listed.
You're welcome, Winston. I had second thoughts about the "at this time" because I thought she might come back with a "well, then next week?" In retrospect I would have tacked on "or for the foreseeable future" as TroubledWife suggested.
But sounds like you handled it well. Congrats. Saying "no" can be very empowering.
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How the Church Blessed My Life Last Week
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BYU changes religion curriculum
Posted: 28 October 2014 02:29 PM [ Ignore ]
Curious NeverMo
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I'm not sure I understand this or its implications at all but it seems to be causing waves.
I would love to hear what people here make of it.
Posted: 28 October 2014 03:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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The for core courses were previously four courses dedicated to the study of the scriptures, rather than being dedicated to specific doctrines. The courses were BoM, D&C, Old Testament (including PoGP), and New Testament. The scriptures were studied within their purported contexts. Now, instead of studying the account of Nephi, student will study his doctrinal teachings. The courses will require specific reasons, but will probably not require students to read the entire standard works. That exercise would be unnecessary for the study of specific doctrine. Some folks are concerned that not reading the BoM straight through, students will be unfamiliar with the context and the scriptural history.
It seems to me that the scriptural history and context is what the curriculum is specifically designed to avoid. Students won't doubt if they don't have to read about the untenable voyage of the Jaredites, for example.
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Posted: 29 October 2014 08:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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That is just amazing who dumb down BYU well most schools are moving to. That would be like a Law professor saying that they will study the principles of the law without studying the rigors of the law itself, or like a English literature saying that he will give examples of a great book without actually reading the book.
Posted: 29 October 2014 10:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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It seems to me to be more attempts at mainstreaming. The BoM gets one semester (it was previously two) and that one semester is supposed to have "emphasis on the Savior's ministry."
[They're always "emphasizing" Jesus and yet he never manages to be the central focus.]
The new "Eternal Families" course fits right in with the "Families Can Be Forever" PR campaign, which supposedly appeals to nonmormons.
On a related topic (but a little detour from the OP), I found this link in the Times and Seasons article to be fascinating...
http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/03/21/truth-for-our-times/
Valerie Hudson’s article in the April Ensign, Equal Partnership in Marriage, is a contemporary approach to the workings and doctrine of Mormon marriage. While strikingly different in thesis, it is just as strikingly similar to Brent Barlow’s article published in the Ensign 40 years ago, Strengthening the Patriarchal Order in the Home.
While the theses of these articles are in opposition to one another, both use the same rhetorical techniques to support their ideas. Hudson claims it is eternal doctrine that marriage partners are to be equals, while Barlow claims it is eternal doctrine for the father to rule in the home.
It's a very interesting analysis of these 2 Ensign articles, written 40 years and 2 worlds apart. Great example of the ever-changing "eternal" truths of mormonism.
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A Postmo Temple?
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A Sad Twisted Truth About Mormonism
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Walkabout
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What's Wrong with Natural?
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The unlearned farm boy spoke French? Maybe 'reformed French'?
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How the Church Blessed My Life Last Week
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St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, Nov. 2nd, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT)
Posted: 05 July 2014 09:43 AM [ Ignore ]
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We meet upstairs at 10:00 am - we are almost always the only ones there at the time. Just watch for the dark cloud of apostasy hanging over us. Everyone is welcome - some of us get coffee and some of us don't. No RSVP needed. Sometimes it's a big group, sometimes it's small. So, come on out and join us--we'll steal a bagel, kick a few puppies, and join in loud laughter at the expense of the Lard's Anointed!!
If you're in Utah (depending on where) come on out on Sunday to our meetup. There's good food, coffee, and conversation.
___________________________________________
On November 9th, my TBM DW will be there in attendance. If you have a TBM spouse or otherwise important person in your life and want them to come with you, but are unsure of what kind of experience they will have, have NO fear. TBM DW is willing to attend so they have someone they can talk to and so she can be a buffer if needed.
____________________________________________
We are enjoying our new location...
Harmons Bangerter Crossing store:
Every Sunday, 10:00 a.m. to Noon
we meet upstairs in the café seating area. You can't miss us.
Harmons Bangerter Crossing
125 East 13800 South (immediately east of I-15)
Draper, UT 84020
It's the best free 'therapy' you can get if seeing an actual therapist is maybe not an option right now.
Seriously, many of us that show up have bought the t-shirt and understand where you are coming from. Sometimes being able to meet with other ex-mos in person is a life-saver. Come on out and tell us your story.
Posted: 11 July 2014 08:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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*topping*
Posted: 19 July 2014 07:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Updated for this week.
Posted: 19 July 2014 03:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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If we do this, on the sabbath, then don't we run the risk of making the entire day no longer holy?
Posted: 19 July 2014 06:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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tyhollin:
If we do this, on the sabbath, then don't we run the risk of making the entire day no longer holy?
Perfect!
Posted: 26 July 2014 06:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Updating for this week.
Posted: 02 August 2014 05:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Here we go again...
Posted: 09 August 2014 06:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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**updating for this week**
Posted: 22 August 2014 08:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Topping for Sunday
Posted: 30 August 2014 07:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Time for the weekly bump.
Posted: 05 September 2014 05:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Look kids... Big Ben, Parliament
Posted: 13 September 2014 05:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Yeah, we know.
Posted: 20 September 2014 08:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Back on the hamster wheel.
Posted: 27 September 2014 08:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Same bat time, same bat channel....
Posted: 04 October 2014 08:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Time to make the doughnuts...
Posted: 10 October 2014 09:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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How can you have donuts without coffee?
Posted: 16 October 2014 05:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Coffee with Jesus....What Would Jesus Brew?
Posted: 17 October 2014 05:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
Hank
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BITE ME:
We meet upstairs at 10:00 am - we are almost always the only ones there at the time. Just watch for the dark cloud of apostasy hanging over us. Everyone is welcome - some of us get coffee and some of us don't. No RSVP needed. Sometimes it's a big group, sometimes it's small. So, come on out and join us--we'll steal a bagel, kick a few puppies, and join in loud laughter at the expense of the Lard's Anointed!!
If you're in Utah (depending on where) come on out on Sunday to our meetup. There's good food, coffee, and conversation.
___________________________________________
Each first Sunday, my TBM DW will be there in attendance. If you have a TBM spouse or otherwise important person in your life and want them to come with you, but are unsure of what kind of experience they will have, have NO fear. TBM DW is willing to attend so they have someone they can talk to and so she can be a buffer if needed.
____________________________________________
We are enjoying our new location...
Harmons Bangerter Crossing store:
Every Sunday, 10:00 a.m. to Noon
we meet upstairs in the café seating area. You can't miss us.
Harmons Bangerter Crossing
125 East 13800 South (immediately east of I-15)
Draper, UT 84020
It's the best free 'therapy' you can get if seeing an actual therapist is maybe not an option right now.
Seriously, many of us that show up have bought the t-shirt and understand where you are coming from. Sometimes being able to meet with other ex-mos in person is a life-saver. Come on out and tell us your story.
In light of the recent conference talk refering to apostates as Judases, maybe the "Apostate 1st Ward" should be changed "St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward". :)
Posted: 18 October 2014 07:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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Hank:
In light of the recent conference talk refering to apostates as Judases, maybe the "Apostate 1st Ward" should be changed "St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward". :)
You sir, are a true prophet, seer, and revelator! Freakin' loved your suggestion. I laughing my ass off. I'm going to change it right now.
Posted: 24 October 2014 09:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Ahhh, it's been a great week! Lots to talk about on Sunday.
Posted: 31 October 2014 09:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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**Bumping for this week**
‹‹ 4th of July get together Yard Sales for a full refund ››
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Renaming things after a nice prophet.
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Early Research Says There May Be A Problem With Another LDS Food Storage Item
Posted: 28 October 2014 07:40 PM [ Ignore ]
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http://news.yahoo.com/3-servings-milk-day-linked-higher-mortality-women-225748279.html
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 29 October 2014 03:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I read an article once where a nutritionist said something like, "What are humans doing drinking all this cow milk? Cow milk is for baby cows."
There are an awful lot of people with things like lactose intolerance and allergies to milk. The fat in milk is of great concern to people who are watching their weight.
Posted: 30 October 2014 06:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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A cute article explaining why dairy is calcium's bad boyfriend.
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/natural-health/reasons-why-dairy-is-like-calciums-bad-boyfriend/
Looks like the church's PR group needs to help them find a new LDS food storage pyramid.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
‹‹ Would you support a kickstarter campaign to bring down the Mormon Church? An Epiphiany About Family Who Refuse to Even Hear Us ››
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Any good books on Mixed Faith Marriage by Non-believers
by howdimissthat
BOM musical audience response
by Joan
A Postmo Temple?
by Heretic
A Sad Twisted Truth About Mormonism
by DrW
Walkabout
by Discon2
What's Wrong with Natural?
by Denker
The unlearned farm boy spoke French? Maybe 'reformed French'?
by Heretic
The Mission President who had to resign!!
by Old Kinderhooker
Renaming things after a nice prophet.
by Old Kinderhooker
Mormon Apology
by WinstonSmith
Looks Like I Will Have The Opportunity to Help My Brother
by Strong Free & Thankful
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Lamay
When was Emma destroyed?
by Heretic
What kind of infrastructure, support and population...
by Heretic
Henry B. Eyring to Speak at the Vatican, does this mean decent "Catholic" composers will be brought back to the hymn book and ward Libraries?
by Bold Wish
Tours of Book of Mormon lands - Fraud?
by thalmar
Will The One True Mall end up here?
by Tessa
How the Church Blessed My Life Last Week
by MoMan
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
by Swearing Elder
Felt Compelled and a Stunned Silence Response
by Bold Wish
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/40399/
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Any good books on Mixed Faith Marriage by Non-believers
by howdimissthat
BOM musical audience response
by Joan
A Postmo Temple?
by Heretic
A Sad Twisted Truth About Mormonism
by DrW
Walkabout
by Discon2
What's Wrong with Natural?
by Denker
The unlearned farm boy spoke French? Maybe 'reformed French'?
by Heretic
The Mission President who had to resign!!
by Old Kinderhooker
Renaming things after a nice prophet.
by Old Kinderhooker
Mormon Apology
by WinstonSmith
Looks Like I Will Have The Opportunity to Help My Brother
by Strong Free & Thankful
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Lamay
When was Emma destroyed?
by Heretic
What kind of infrastructure, support and population...
by Heretic
Henry B. Eyring to Speak at the Vatican, does this mean decent "Catholic" composers will be brought back to the hymn book and ward Libraries?
by Bold Wish
Tours of Book of Mormon lands - Fraud?
by thalmar
Will The One True Mall end up here?
by Tessa
How the Church Blessed My Life Last Week
by MoMan
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
by Swearing Elder
Felt Compelled and a Stunned Silence Response
by Bold Wish
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewforum/5/P35/
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2014 Conference
"Chrysalis"
Oct. 9 - 12
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
November UVPM/CALM Support Meeting @ UVU
[Calm of Utah Coun...]
Bronze Cafe Coffee Meetup Sunday Nov 16th 10:30 am
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
[Palmetto Post-Mor...]
Las Vegas Meetup: Heathen Thanksgiving!
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Knoxville Dinner Social
[East Tennessee Po...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/2)
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November 2nd PostMormon Lecture 2014
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Hike Historic Boulder Dam Railroad Tunnels 10:00AM Saturday Oct 25th
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October '14 Meetup
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Las Vegas Meetup Sat Sept 27th Noon Henderson Car Show
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Utah County CALM meetup for November
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Why I am a Better Mother
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The Mormon Mask
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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When was Emma destroyed?
Posted: 04 November 2014 06:27 PM [ Ignore ]
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/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-132-138/section-132-marriage-an-eternal-covenant?lang=eng
D&C 132:51–56. What Was Emma Commanded Not to Partake of?
No indication is given here or elsewhere of what the Lord had commanded the Prophet Joseph to offer to his wife, but the context seems to suggest that it was a special test of faith similar to the test of Abraham’s faith when the Lord commanded him to sacrifice Isaac. Beyond that, it is useless to speculate. However, Emma was given additional counsel from the Lord, including commandments to “receive all those that have been given to her husband” (D&C 132:52) to obey the voice of the Lord (see v. 53), to “abide and cleave unto” the Prophet (v. 54), and to forgive him of his trespasses (see v. 56). The Lord also gave her warnings against rejecting these commandments and promises for keeping them.
----------------------------------
Would these trespasses be screwing young girls in the hay loft?
Interesting how they don't quote that Emma will be destroyed.
Partial quotes and rationalizing once again.
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My dog has Health in the navel. marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews…
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That is reserved for the Cat.
Posted: 04 November 2014 08:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Oh, I think Emma was destroyed the moment she saw her husband and the servant screwing around in the barn.
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“Have you threatened your children with eternal damnation today?”
Posted: 05 November 2014 06:09 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Felix
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Grant Palmer as well as others who have done extensive research pretty much conclude that there was a sort of partner swap arranged by Joseph to silence Emma about her feeling neglected by Joseph.
Skip down to ll. to begin reading what Grant Palmer had to say about it.
http://mormonthink.com/grant7.htm
Posted: 05 November 2014 07:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Tessa
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The minute she met Joseph Smith...the con man used every trick in the book to get into other women's knickers.
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Posted: 05 November 2014 03:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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At some point, I think Emma Smith started to view Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet. Like she acted as if she still believed in the church, but her husband would get a new revelation and she would just laugh it off and think that he personally made it up to accomplish his personal ends.
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Mormon Apology
Posted: 27 December 2013 02:31 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Heh, I might have my work cut out for me this time. Again. Have you started to notice yet that, the apologies are demanded sometimes by the LDS leaders but not yet given.
That bites, no, that really can bite back.
It could even become another favorite oxymormon. [oxymoron]
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Posted: 27 December 2013 04:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Interesting article Mr. Myth.
If you say the LDS does not discriminate today you should look at this website and you will see evidence of discrimination for yourself. You will see pictures of the entire leadership of the Latter Day Saints. There are only TWO black men out of 107 leaders of the church. As you can plainly see prejudice is still extremely evident today amongst the Latter Day Saints Leadership. By the way, both of these men are serving in Africa.
http://www.lds.org/church/leaders?lang=eng
The opening of the priesthood to all worthy males in 1978 was supposed to have been some great revelation given by President Kimball after days of prayer and fasting in one of the upper rooms of the temple. This was praised by so many of the leaders and people of the Latter Day Saints as some great revelation when God changed His mind to allow non-white men to hold the priesthood. It seems all the “prophet” and other leaders of the church had to do was to read 2 Nephi 26:33 in the Book of Mormon doesn’t it? Once again, if they had just read the Book of Mormon and discarded the misguided teachings of the early leaders the restriction of non-white priesthood members would never have been in place. This is further scriptural proof the LDS leadership has made and still makes mistakes as President Uchtdorf has said.
If it DOES NOT MATTER to God what skin color a person has why does it matter to men?
2 Nephi 26:33
For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
www.truthaboutldsmormons.com
Posted: 27 December 2013 07:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I love how this article links to a 2012 church statement that says [regarding the priesthood ban]:
"It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church"
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/racial-remarks-in-washington-post-article
And then they say...
"Since then, though, they seem to have caught up on their reading,....."
and point out the 2013 essay where they suddenly know
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Posted: 27 December 2013 08:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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dave (e_nomo):
I love how this article links to a 2012 church statement that says [regarding the priesthood ban]:
"It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church"
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/racial-remarks-in-washington-post-article
And then they say...
"Since then, though, they seem to have caught up on their reading,....."
and point out the 2013 essay where they suddenly know
The hate of blacks in Mormonism seemed to start with the acquaintance of Joseph Smith named "Black Jake", who was around about the time the forest vision or visions occured from the Mormon prophet. Recognizing that Joseph might have inherited a fragile brain to begin with, he could have been experimenting with mind altering substances just like his dad is confirmed as doing. Black Jake seemed to be kept nearby as Joseph's associate when he traveled during the early years, because he may have been there next to the supposed prophet Joseph Smith while maybe under the influence.
Brigham didn't start the hate of blacks in Mormonism and he didn't start polygamy in the LDS reported year of 1852. The rilvalry Brigham Young developed over Joseph Smith was maybe simply needed to remain a dictator over the entire Utah territories and over the men of the Wild West. And conviently, Smith the prophet was deceased, so what defense would or could a dead man mount?
Answer is, Both of these stupid LDS prophets are to be blamed for these misogynistic and racist fires.
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Posted: 06 November 2014 02:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I posted this over at the exmormonkforums and thought it would good to post here as well Look closely at the 1833 time line the piece about W W Phelps. http://www.blacklds.org/history Great to show the LD$ Corp white wash to coverup true history.
Posted: 06 November 2014 07:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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SCMormon:
I posted this over at the exmormonkforums and thought it would good to post here as well Look closely at the 1833 time line the piece about W W Phelps. http://www.blacklds.org/history Great to show the LD$ Corp white wash to coverup true history.
Thanks for the link.
For a Church that claims to be lead and guided by direct revelation from god, how can this line of events ever have happened in the organization?
Most disturbing is that the Author of "Mormon Doctrine" - Bruce R. McConkie says, "We should forget everything that has been said in the past on this topic." What a cowarly statement --- Throw it down the "Memory Hole" and all is well --- McConkie was a racist of epic proportion while claiming to be a "special witness of Christ"
It is like the fox in the coop saying to the the chickens, "We should forget everying that has happpened in the past"
To do so would set up a very dangerous situation for the chickens.
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A Sad Twisted Truth About Mormonism
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The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
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When did white baptism dresses become a thing?
Posted: 01 November 2014 08:23 AM [ Ignore ]
bjohn
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My theory is that stupid 3 white dresses poem that was or is??? sold at Deseret Book.
Thoughts?
Posted: 01 November 2014 01:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I don't know what the fuss is all about. I looked darling in my white baptismal dress!
Posted: 01 November 2014 01:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Curious NeverMo
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Interesting question.
Seems the idea of white as carrying a message of purity or authority goes back to the Greeks who saw the world in dualistic terms of light and dark, good and evil.
The Romans adopted that, as they did so much Greek culture, and a white toga became sina qua non of an adult Roman and was required for anyone appearing in the forum. Anyone wanting special authority rubbed white chalk into their toga to make it particularly lustrous. These white-enhanced garments were called candida and we get our word "candidate" from them.
Worshippers of the goddess Vesta (from which we get the concept of vestal virgins) also wore white from head to foot creating the association with purity.
Early Christians picked up the thread and adopted white as the color of the vestments priests used when celebrating mass. They made white the official color of the Pope who is the bishop Rome and distinguishes himself from all the Cardinals who wear red.
In the 17th century Europe christenings typically took place with babies presented in any swaddling that the family owned. It wasn't until the late 18th or early 19th century that the elaborate white christening gowns that became family heirlooms began making their appearance. At about the same time in England Queen Victoria broke with the current tradition and chose a white wedding dress when she married Prince Albert. That was the beginning of brides choosing a dress that was conspicuously not appropriate for every day wear and the trend caught on and spread quickly. However, even prior to that white was the required color for any debutante wishing to be presented at court.
Victoria married in 1840. Perhaps that's coincidental with the early establshment of Mormonism after 1829.
But perhaps it was inevitable since the idea of white as special, annointed, carrying authority, being pure, etc goes back a long, long way.
Posted: 02 November 2014 08:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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They all have to change into white jump suits anyway....if the parents want to drop dollars for a dress...it's less for the church coffers (unless they buy them at Deseret Book.)
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Posted: 03 November 2014 01:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I remember getting to pick a dress when I turned eight. It seemed like most other girls would get a new one as well. It was never a white one though.
I'm probably overthinking this. I can't help think one ear piercing, no flip flops, no denim skirts, only white dresses at baptism. While not "official" you must behave this way, it seems to be implied.
Posted: 03 November 2014 01:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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I guess I should have clarified not the actual dress you get dunked in, but the dress you wear afterwards when being given the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Posted: 03 November 2014 01:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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It probably started with one mormon family trying to out-morm another family and the "tradition" just picked up steam from there. That's how a lot of mormon cultural practices get started.
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Posted: 03 November 2014 03:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Well the wise, and informational (typed with a hint of sarcasm) world of Wikipedia doesn't specify when the church started using white baptismal outfits.
THe article on various types of baptisms outfits, only states that the mormons' use of white is 'traditional'
THe article on Mormon baptism has a picture circa 1850 in which the participants are wearing white. So it's been around since at least then..
interesting thought- It is doubtful that Cowdry or Joe were wearing white when they baptized eachother, so Doesn't that mean that they were not officially baptized?
Posted: 04 November 2014 10:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Methinks its a hold-over with the Hispanic population, they go out and buy "Confirmation" dresses when the Catholics take their "first-communion."
That influence may be what is driving this...aim to please from another culture (like wearing Leis to HIgh School Graduation, etc. etc.)
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A Postmo Temple?
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A Sad Twisted Truth About Mormonism
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Walkabout
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What's Wrong with Natural?
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The unlearned farm boy spoke French? Maybe 'reformed French'?
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The Mission President who had to resign!!
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Renaming things after a nice prophet.
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Mormon Apology
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Looks Like I Will Have The Opportunity to Help My Brother
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When was Emma destroyed?
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What kind of infrastructure, support and population...
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by Bold Wish
Tours of Book of Mormon lands - Fraud?
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Will The One True Mall end up here?
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How the Church Blessed My Life Last Week
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The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
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Felt Compelled and a Stunned Silence Response
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Will The One True Mall end up here?
Posted: 02 November 2014 08:56 AM [ Ignore ]
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http://www.deadmalls.com/index.html
Will Tommie and the gang have a revelation that direct members to shop at The One True Mall so it doesn't fail?
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Posted: 02 November 2014 10:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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What big box stores is the City Creek Mall anchored to? In order for a mall to be successful, it needs to be hooked to some large stores such as Wal-Mart, Sear's, Macy's, Dillard's and such. In the current business environment, a mall or shopping center that does not contain a few popular high-traffic businesses is doomed to struggle.
I think it would be more effective for the church to see about getting the proper mix of businesses in the mall rather than commanding Mormons to shop there.
Posted: 02 November 2014 12:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Heretic:
What big box stores is the City Creek mall anchored to? In order for a mall to be successful, it needs to be hooked to some large stores such as Wal-Mart, Sear's, Macy's, Dillard's and such. In the current business environment, a mall or shopping center that does not contain a few popular high-traffic businesses is doomed to struggle.
I think it would be more effective for the church to see about getting the proper mix of businesses in the mall rather than commanding Mormons to shop there.
The church has a lot of money.
I didn't find anything on Deadmalls(dot)com that addressed the City Creek situation.
I Googled for some input on how the City Creek is doing, financially, and couldn't find anything definitive, one way or another.
The church has no City Creek debt so if they wanted to, they could charge a per square foot charge just large enough to pay maintenance and taxes which would make life tenable for a low performing store. It wouldn't make financial sense, but they could even pay retailers to stay there...
There is a good deal of prestige, of 'face', involved, so factoring in my first point, about the church being rich, the often made observation, that "The church will never let City Creek fail," is not out of the question.
Posted: 02 November 2014 01:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Verily thus saith the Lord: One two three, thou shalt go shopping!
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Posted: 03 November 2014 05:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Lots of malls and mini-malls are running empty buildings.
Methinks the era of the mall is coming to an end....especially with online shopping and delivery.
Who wants the hassle of driving/parking or riding the expensive rails and getting "exposed" to tons of diseases"... to get to the "Lard's Mall?"
Maybe Amazon will open a branch there?
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Posted: 03 November 2014 12:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Perhaps D.I. could be their anchor tenant...
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Good God, let me give you my life- Take Me To Church, Hozier
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 05 November 2014 09:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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We here is the Columbia SC metro area know full well back in the day when two of our malls were very profitable. Now the oldest of the two was just bought by someone in Nevada.
Posted: 05 November 2014 09:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Don't people realize yet that "black friday" after Thanksgiving (soon to be 6 p.m. Thanksgiving day)....has hurt many people in the crush for "deals."
Who wouldn't rather have the item bought and delivered without having to get stomped on by thousands locusting the shelves.
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Henry B. Eyring to Speak at the Vatican, does this mean decent “Catholic” composers will be brought back to the hymn book and ward Libraries?
Posted: 04 November 2014 08:29 AM [ Ignore ]
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Tessa
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http://universe.byu.edu/2014/11/03/president-henry-b-eyring-to-speak-at-the-vatican/
It appears the LDS church is finally being considered a "christian" church, wonder how much money out of tithing that took to accomplish??
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Posted: 04 November 2014 11:16 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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It sounds like an anti-gay meeting to me. The Catholics are happy to enlist people of any religion to hate gays along with them.
It would be so funny if instead of doing the expected thing and preaching about how marriage is supposed to be the union between one man and one woman, he started going all Brigham Young on the audience and preaching about how marriage is the union between one man and a whole bunch of women, and everyone who is not a polygamist will be punished in the afterlife.
Posted: 04 November 2014 12:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Mormons and Catholics each see the other as allies in the fight against the traditions they imagine themselves to stand for.
Yeah, there is tremendous irony in the extention of the invitation. There are tons of quotations by 1800's apostles regarding the whoredoms of Catholicism, but naturally all that will be thrown under the bus...some truths aren't useful, as it were. But what about scriptures? Like these...
D&C 29:21:
"And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign."
D&C 88:94:
"And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it."
1 Nephi 14:10-11:
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
I hope that someone has the temerity to point out especially the last one to as many Catholic prelates as possible.
Posted: 05 November 2014 07:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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This is so strange since I heard almost the same thing from the home screecher last month. His comments were that the Catholic church has become more tolerant to "those people". So I asked him, Who are "those people"? So he says "you know those people, the gays". Now I believe that God loves us all. No matter who we are, our lifestyle etc. I really took offense to his statement, since I have a Brother in law that is gay. I accept him for who he is, as long as he is happy.
Posted: 05 November 2014 09:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Pope Francis tried to get his bishops to be more accepting of gays...he failed...and they all creaked antiquely....and held hands with Mormon prophets? Oh brother.
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Posted: 05 November 2014 01:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Tessa:
Pope Francis tried to get his bishops to be more accepting of gays...he failed...and they all creaked antiquely....and held hands with Mormon prophets? Oh brother.
The cynic in me wonders how genuine Pope Francis' efforts towards more tolerance are and how much of them are empty publicity stunts. "Hey guys, I know the Catholic church isn't any more tolerant towards gays but I tried REALLY hard you guys." I want to like him and believe he is genuine but a part of me has to wonder if any part is just an act the Catholic church is doing as damage control.
Posted: 05 November 2014 01:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Could it be all religions are experiencing members fading away?
Didn't Jeff Ricks post a link recently about someone who was predicting all religions will practically vanish in a few generations?
I'm not sure I agree with that but it's interesting to consider.
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Any good books on Mixed Faith Marriage by Non-believers
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BOM musical audience response
by Joan
A Postmo Temple?
by Heretic
A Sad Twisted Truth About Mormonism
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Walkabout
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What's Wrong with Natural?
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The unlearned farm boy spoke French? Maybe 'reformed French'?
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The Mission President who had to resign!!
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Renaming things after a nice prophet.
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Mormon Apology
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Looks Like I Will Have The Opportunity to Help My Brother
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Tours of Book of Mormon lands - Fraud?
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Will The One True Mall end up here?
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How the Church Blessed My Life Last Week
by MoMan
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
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Felt Compelled and a Stunned Silence Response
by Bold Wish
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Posted: 27 December 2013 02:31 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Heh, I might have my work cut out for me this time. Again. Have you started to notice yet that, the apologies are demanded sometimes by the LDS leaders but not yet given.
That bites, no, that really can bite back.
It could even become another favorite oxymormon. [oxymoron]
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Posted: 27 December 2013 04:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Interesting article Mr. Myth.
If you say the LDS does not discriminate today you should look at this website and you will see evidence of discrimination for yourself. You will see pictures of the entire leadership of the Latter Day Saints. There are only TWO black men out of 107 leaders of the church. As you can plainly see prejudice is still extremely evident today amongst the Latter Day Saints Leadership. By the way, both of these men are serving in Africa.
http://www.lds.org/church/leaders?lang=eng
The opening of the priesthood to all worthy males in 1978 was supposed to have been some great revelation given by President Kimball after days of prayer and fasting in one of the upper rooms of the temple. This was praised by so many of the leaders and people of the Latter Day Saints as some great revelation when God changed His mind to allow non-white men to hold the priesthood. It seems all the “prophet” and other leaders of the church had to do was to read 2 Nephi 26:33 in the Book of Mormon doesn’t it? Once again, if they had just read the Book of Mormon and discarded the misguided teachings of the early leaders the restriction of non-white priesthood members would never have been in place. This is further scriptural proof the LDS leadership has made and still makes mistakes as President Uchtdorf has said.
If it DOES NOT MATTER to God what skin color a person has why does it matter to men?
2 Nephi 26:33
For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
www.truthaboutldsmormons.com
Posted: 27 December 2013 07:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I love how this article links to a 2012 church statement that says [regarding the priesthood ban]:
"It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church"
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/racial-remarks-in-washington-post-article
And then they say...
"Since then, though, they seem to have caught up on their reading,....."
and point out the 2013 essay where they suddenly know
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Posted: 27 December 2013 08:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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dave (e_nomo):
I love how this article links to a 2012 church statement that says [regarding the priesthood ban]:
"It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church"
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/racial-remarks-in-washington-post-article
And then they say...
"Since then, though, they seem to have caught up on their reading,....."
and point out the 2013 essay where they suddenly know
The hate of blacks in Mormonism seemed to start with the acquaintance of Joseph Smith named "Black Jake", who was around about the time the forest vision or visions occured from the Mormon prophet. Recognizing that Joseph might have inherited a fragile brain to begin with, he could have been experimenting with mind altering substances just like his dad is confirmed as doing. Black Jake seemed to be kept nearby as Joseph's associate when he traveled during the early years, because he may have been there next to the supposed prophet Joseph Smith while maybe under the influence.
Brigham didn't start the hate of blacks in Mormonism and he didn't start polygamy in the LDS reported year of 1852. The rilvalry Brigham Young developed over Joseph Smith was maybe simply needed to remain a dictator over the entire Utah territories and over the men of the Wild West. And conviently, Smith the prophet was deceased, so what defense would or could a dead man mount?
Answer is, Both of these stupid LDS prophets are to be blamed for these misogynistic and racist fires.
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Posted: 06 November 2014 02:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I posted this over at the exmormonkforums and thought it would good to post here as well Look closely at the 1833 time line the piece about W W Phelps. http://www.blacklds.org/history Great to show the LD$ Corp white wash to coverup true history.
Posted: 06 November 2014 07:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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SCMormon:
I posted this over at the exmormonkforums and thought it would good to post here as well Look closely at the 1833 time line the piece about W W Phelps. http://www.blacklds.org/history Great to show the LD$ Corp white wash to coverup true history.
Thanks for the link.
For a Church that claims to be lead and guided by direct revelation from god, how can this line of events ever have happened in the organization?
Most disturbing is that the Author of "Mormon Doctrine" - Bruce R. McConkie says, "We should forget everything that has been said in the past on this topic." What a cowarly statement --- Throw it down the "Memory Hole" and all is well --- McConkie was a racist of epic proportion while claiming to be a "special witness of Christ"
It is like the fox in the coop saying to the the chickens, "We should forget everying that has happpened in the past"
To do so would set up a very dangerous situation for the chickens.
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Posted: 01 November 2014 08:51 AM [ Ignore ]
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The hardest thing in my mixed belief marriage comes down to black and white thinking verses openness and acceptance of other ideas and people. I always try to keep in perspective that DW did not choose the family and religion she was born, and like many of us that went through life long programming, we simply have been deprived of critical cognitive skills.
I cannot blame DW, however this dilemma often leaves me hurting, isolated and very lonely. I make consessions that allow DW and kids to be active in Mormonism. There are some good thing that members benefit from activity. DW and kids have a very active and large social network of friends.
Me on the other hand, I just do not fit in. I have tried the NOM thing, and it just doesn't work for me. I can only watch so much Fox News, I can only listen to so much dooms day conversation, I can only look at so many stock piles of food that will never be eaten, I cannot stand to hear the Mormon etcentric humility, that they are so much better than anyone that is not Mormon.
I was compelled to attend a Church function this morning and I needed to vent.
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Posted: 01 November 2014 10:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Chin up Winston. My assessment: You are very measured, thoughtful and kind to your family. You are in a tough spot and are doing the best that you can in the circumstances. You have thought about your options and have come up with your current course of action. These challenges are to be expected right? I appreciate how you can see the circumstances from you families perspective-that is an admirable trait. You obviously love your family very much. If this is so, then what you are doing is truly an act of love. I personally admire you for it. My hope is that your DW and children will see the kindness you extend to them through your tolerance, and that they will eventually measure out the same to you. In the meantime, thanks for sharing...pulling for you. Carl
Posted: 03 November 2014 02:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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What Carl said.
Also... I'm in the same boat. I've found one of the most effective things is to just be a good, decent person and not the depraved, substance abusing child molester many TBMs believe we turn into when we leave the church.
And remember... the 11th article of faith is your friend. I've employed it more than once. Except many believers don't seem to like it!
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Posted: 03 November 2014 07:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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WinstonSmith:
The hardest thing in my mixed belief marriage comes down to black and white thinking verses openness and acceptance of other ideas and people. I always try to keep in perspective that DW did not choose the family and religion she was born, and like many of us that went through life long programming, we simply have been deprived of critical cognitive skills.
I cannot blame DW, however this dilemma often leaves me hurting, isolated and very lonely. I make consessions that allow DW and kids to be active in Mormonism. There are some good thing that members benefit from activity. DW and kids have a very active and large social network of friends.
Me on the other hand, I just do not fit in. I have tried the NOM thing, and it just doesn't work for me. I can only watch so much Fox News, I can only listen to so much dooms day conversation, I can only look at so many stock piles of food that will never be eaten, I cannot stand to hear the Mormon etcentric humility, that they are so much better than anyone that is not Mormon.
I was compelled to attend a Church function this morning and I needed to vent.
Wow Winston, your post really stuck me.
For the past 17 1/2 years, being the wife of a Jack Mormon whom I love dearly, I've been in a mixed-belief situation with my inlaw family, who are mostly all strong Mormons. I, on the other hand, am not Mormon..at...all. But that hasn't stopped them from inviting me to Relief Society Meetings (aka Stepford Wives Meetings), or giving those little "hints" by talking about their Missions, or giving those longggg Graces before meals, or giving that gaggy line in earshot of me, "We are the only and only true church".
And ohh have I felt isolated and lonely. It's been two fold: there has been this constant undercurrent of "not being part of the club". Their club was either "being Mormon" or "being blood". Because even a few of the non-practicing, low life, alcoholic/druggie "blood members" were treated with deference and lovingness over me. I happily went to family reunion after family reunion...and looking back, they were all exercises in "how to cope with being an outsider and feeling lonely".
The other side was simply me. I am a critical thinker: they are not. I can have a good laugh at a nasty joke; they cannot. I can feel spiritual without being part of a "religion": they cannot. On and on.
The turning point for me was a few months ago. After a particularly NEGATIVE event towards me by the alcoholic/druggie family members...it hit me. All those soooo faithful and loving Mormon family members did...absolutely...nothing. NOTHING!! ZERO. ZILCH. It hit me hard. It's been that way the entire 17 1/2 years! Heads in the sand. Monkeys on a branch. Extreme conflict avoidance. So...I knew what I needed to do. I cut off from ALL of them. I banned them from my Facebook page. I stopped them from messaging or emailing me. I divorced myself from the entire family.
I'm not saying you should divorce yourself from your family. I'm just saying how MUCH I identify with you when you said you have felt hurt, isolated and lonely. Looking back, I felt that the entire 17 1/2 years!! I just kept coping and trying to make it work and coping and trying to make it work. What a waste!!
Today, I'm in the long hallway between the past 17 1/2 years of angst & discomfort and the future of having MUCH better people around me. It's not easy. But I'm working on it. I hope you figure things out for you, too!
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Any good books on Mixed Faith Marriage by Non-believers
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A Sad Twisted Truth About Mormonism
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The Mission President who had to resign!!
Posted: 05 November 2014 07:05 PM [ Ignore ]
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In the course of following my voyeristic muse, I ran across a juicy, juicy tidbit, involving the Uruguay Montevideo mission, back in January of this year. Cynic that I am, I'm really, really curious about the vetting process involving MPs. From one of the news stories about MP Gary D. Newcome, he retired from a very well paying position as president of his company because he'd been 'tapped' by the LDS church to be an MP...
First letter, from an Elder: "Saturday the assistants texted the ZLs and said that everyone needs to travel for a conference Monday at 12 and not to ask why because they didn't know.... Nobody knew what to expect, but the mission president announced he has to go home, by the advice of the prophets, to fix some legal issues with his hospitals/ business. I never expected to have more than 1 mission president, but things happen."
The same event, from the point of view of an Hermana: "Sorry about having to write a day late. There are some parents of missionaries who call the mission office when their kids don't write exactly on time. I am so glad you don't do that. Anyway, the reason is because we had to go to Montevideo yesterday for a super-secret mission conference. They wouldn't tell us what was going on or why we had to go, but the good thing about being a missionary is that you develop an innate trust of what your leaders tell you to do. At first we thought it was just our zone, and that we would be going to the temple, but when we got on the bus we found out the whole mission was going to be there, and rumors began to fly. Are they splitting the mission? Is there a general authority coming? Is there a national emergency and we have to leave the country? President Monson is coming?! Well, we got to Montevideo and started the conference. Then President Newsome got up and announced that he and his wife are being released. There is apparently legal trouble with President's company back in the States and he has to go and fix things."
Another Hermana's very emotional version of it: "We also had a surprise mission-wide conference yesterday. None of us knew why--we were all guessing that the prophet was coming or something but in reality, none of us saw what was coming: PRESIDENT NEWSOME IS GOING HOME. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!
He is my favorite person ever and now he has to leave us, after such a short time. Turns out the business he left behind isn't going so well and he has to return and fix some legal matters. So... Basically the entire mission was in tears. They gave us some wonderful talks--him and Sister Newsome (every time she talks to us she uses an object lesson and they're amazing. I'm going to miss them.) and then we all stood up and sang "Praise to the Man" as the closing song. And then after the closing prayer we all stood up again and spontaneously sang "God be with you til we meet again". Or at least, tried to sing it. I was crying. A lot. I JUST LOVE THEM SO MUCH! Man oh man. But--we don't need to know why things happen to know that good things will come of it. Mosiah 4:9. The Lord knows all! And He's definately wiser than the lot of us. :) But they will be missed. To say the least."
One Elder kept it short: "Oh yeah thats not all too! Yesterday we all found that Presidente Newsome and Hermana President Newsome has got to take care of some legal problems I guess with his business. But hey we are trying to stay positive, I am definitely going to miss them. I only knew them for 2 months but I felt like I knew them forever! Amazing people and good luck to them in the future! "
Last one... This Elder didn't take it all that seriously: "Then yesterday, president called a mission wide conference, so we had to go to montevideo again, and he announced his ´¨resignation¨? i guess thats whats its called, we were all pretty shocked because hes only been out six months. oh well, we got free lunch so that was good. "
So here's the back story: MP Gary D. Newsome lasted about six months... If you Google 'Gary D Newsome HMA', there are all kind of articles. From what I could see, the litigation is proceeding, and there are various law suits, and he's a named defendant in all of them.
But more interesting, to me, is that word about the coming legal firestorm began surfacing in January of 2013. At age 55, Gary announced in mid-2013 that he'd been "tapped" by the GAs to be an MP, so he retired, with the $22 million he'd been paid for the past three years.
Here's some of the content from the NYTimes story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/24/business/hospital-chain-said-to-scheme-to-inflate-bills.html
The architect of the strategy to raise admissions, according to several of the lawsuits, brought by an array of physicians, individual hospital administrators and compliance officers, was the company’s former chief executive, Gary D. Newsome. “Gary vigorously denies the allegations,” according to an email from his lawyer, Barry Sabin of Latham & Watkins. Mr. Newsome joined H.M.A. in September 2008 from a high-ranking post at Community Health. He left H.M.A. last summer to head a religious mission in Uruguay. His compensation in the three years before his departure totaled $22 million. Shortly after joining H.M.A., Mr. Newsome traveled to North Carolina to meet with local hospital officials. He informed them he was putting in place new protocols, using customized software, meant to “drive admissions” at hospitals, according to allegations in a federal suit filed by Michael Cowling, a former division vice president and chief executive of an H.M.A.-owned hospital in Mooresville, N.C. To reach admission goals, administrators were directed to monitor on a daily basis the percentage of patients being admitted, using a customized software program called Pro-Med. The progress of the physicians in meeting their goals was updated daily on the scorecards. When Mr. Cowling confronted Mr. Newsome with physician concerns that the new protocols were clinically inappropriate and would result in unnecessary tests and admissions, and said that his doctors “won’t do it,” Mr. Newsome responded: “Do it anyway,” according to the lawsuit.
I checked the SLTribune website and got no hits searching 'President Newsome' or 'Gary D Newsome'. Which indicates that while the GAs, and their discernment, didn't see the shit that was about to hit the fan with Bro. Newsome, but obviously they were somewhat successful in keeping this under the apostate radar.
Posted: 05 November 2014 07:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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DrW
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Bro. Newsome sounds like another good candidate for Republican Governor of Florida.
Our present Governor, Rick Scott, used to be CEO of Humana Health Care and had to take the 5th or refuse to answer questions (so as not to incriminate himself) more than 70 times during an investigation and trial arising out of financial misdeeds at Humana.
Humana ended up admitting to the largest Medicare Fraud scheme yet uncovered (losses to medicare were in the billions), but Scott managed to keep himself out of prison.
He is a Republican, so that kind of behavior is acceptable in his peer group, I guess. He was just re-elected.
Posted: 05 November 2014 08:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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So is Gary Newsome still a member of the LDS church? Was he excommunicated? Wait- they only do that to people who challenge their authority. Liars, crooks and swindlers are A-OK by them as long as they kiss up/I mean, remain faithful.
Posted: 05 November 2014 11:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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There is a more implicating article about Gary Newsome here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/25/1272441/-Grotesquely-Enriched-Con-Artist-Retires-to-Uruguayan-LDS-Mission-After-Huge-Medicare-Rippoff# The problem with these guys is that they generally fit the successful businessman profile that the powers that be like to send out on Missions. I am sure they could have found an honest man in Uruguay that could have been an honest servant. Given, everyone is innocent until proven guilty but the information online doesn't give Newsome much credit.
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Posted: 06 November 2014 09:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Time was you couldn't get a TR or take the sacrament if you irrigated on your of days. Newsome seems to have done far worse things. Money talks, and is especially meaningful to the Brethren™. Newsome will soon be in with them or in with Madoff.
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Any good books on Mixed Faith Marriage by Non-believers
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