AtheistNexus.org discussion on Judaism

Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 2:03pm

Shinto IS the Japanese native religion. It occurs nowhere else in the world, has a deity (Amaterasu Omikami) and a host of demons and protectors and rituals and shrines and all the other accoutrements of religion. Buddhism is a graft in Japan, and what is interesting about that is that the Japanese accepted it with great equanimity without giving up their native religion at all. So they practice both when they practice at all. Their religious ceremonies are more part of their culture than a result of any true belief.
American Jews tend not to be very religious, but retain a sense of ethnic identity, which is what you're probably seeing.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 11, 2012 at 4:07pm

John - I'd rather say I'm a heritic or a blasphemer than 'a bit of an ass'. However, when called an ass I prefer myself to be known as a really big ASS...expecially of the ass calling is from a god-believer.
Now - those Jewish people that you mentioned in stores on Sunday - if they are American jews - and I suspect they are - they are low - lower than all Isareli Jews for certain - and are not accepted in Israel as anything other than  "GOYS".
I'm certain Natalie will explain this more.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 12:07pm

Yes, I will explain it, happily. I'm no more a goy (or shiksa, for a female) than you are a giraffe. The word "goy" comes from the Hebrew, meaning "nation". A famous quote from Isaiah is "Lo yissa goy el goy kherev" -- "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation." After a while, the word came to mean anyone who is not Jewish.
So, yeah, Jews, among themselves, will talk about the goyim, and in this country, it usually means Christians, because they simply happen to have been the vast majority in both Europe and North America. It can be used in a derogatory way, or in a simple denotative way, depending on the speaker.
I have been to Israel, and met many Israelis here in the US, and on various trips elsewhere, and they have never been anything but totally accepting of me as a fellow Jew. I kept having to correct one man, because he kept referring to me as Israeli, and I had to remind him that I'm American. Even the Lubavitchers (whom I would NEVER join, because they are ultra-Orthodox, but an interesting anthropological study) have welcomed me warmly whenever I have come in contact with them. Modern Orthodox Jews have also been totally accepting, although I'm not observant, and not as knowledgeable about customs and ceremonies as they are. I frequent the Jewish community occasionally for anthropological interest, not because I believe in god, but because I enjoy my culture. But I also sang for 3 years in an Episcopal church choir in order to study Christianity, too, and I learned as much about Shinto and Buddhism as I could when I lived in Japan.
So, no, your concept of non-Israeli Jews as "low" is totally mistaken.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 1:22pm

Natalie - Have you lived in Israel? If you have not - then you are not in line with how Israel Jews behave towards 'others' - meaning Jews from anywhere and 'others' of any other place on this planet. To them YOU are certainly a GOY (low class Jew).....and there are many examples in Leaving Judaism that refer directly to this.
James Einbein (Ed) in his book 'Leaving Judaism' explains how he grew up in America as a son of Jewish parents - their extended family, friends, neighborhood and community. He explains what it was like working as a teenager at Jewish owned business' in New York area. Absolutely shocking.
How his grandparents emmigrated to the U.S. and instilled in his parents - and they attempted to instill in him - that only Israeli' are 'true' Jews.....and that he MUST marry an Israeli woman - to up the status of this Ameican Jewish family - and it goes on and on. Yes, Ed lived in Israel - and his vibrant descritpions of his wive's family, (mother, sisters etc.), the neighborhood, the business' arrangements, the community, extended across the entire area, and that he - as an American Jew was inferior - was told this many many times by nearly everyone - because only Israeli Jews are the top of the cream.
His children (after the divorce) lived and grew up under such Jewish perfection in Israel...and their attitudes towards 'others'...yes, even their own father is described in detail.
Finally, you're NOT a true JEW unless you're born of an Israeli (or Jewish) woman. You didn't mention that either. Jewish fathers be damned...it's just another way a particular group of people separate themselves from the rest of humanity.
Natalie - Please read Ed's book - maybe you'll see something I've missed.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 3:41pm

Steven, I'm sorry to tell you, but Ed's book is flat-out WRONG. I don't know what community he grew up in, but the attitudes you described are simply unheard of.
I spend 10 weeks in Israel when I was 17, and traveled around the country, and visited families in kibbutzim and moshavim, as well as touring Tel Aviv, Haifa, Jerusalem, Beer Sheva, Eilat, etc. and have come into contact with Jews in and from all around the world, and of all denominations from Ultra-Orthodox to very liberal Reform, and I have NEVER, in my 63 years of life EVER come across a fellow Jew who called me a "goy" or looked at me in any other way than as a member of the tribe. I have NEVER heard of any such experience from any other Jewish person I have met; on the contrary, all I have ever experienced or heard of is a warm acceptance, and knowledge of our kinship.
An interesting counterpoint to Ed's experience is that when I went to Israel, my parents were very straightforward in that they didn't want me to find an Israeli boyfriend -- they wanted me to remain an American Jew. NOT that they felt superior to Israeli Jews, but simply that they were proud and happy to be Americans. The fact is that Jews all over the world, and of all origins DO feel a kinship, and while disagreement over issues is a common and expected thing (in a room with 10 Jews, there will be 11 opinions), the word "goy" is NEVER EVER applied to another Jew, and there are NO superiority issues, except in isolated, fringe communities. I could go to Israel tomorrow (not that I would want to; I AM an American), and I would be welcomed, and the ultra-Orthodox would immediately begin searching for a husband for me, goodness forbid!!! LOL!
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 11:57am

No, of course Japanese is not a religion. It is a culture with a religion, Shinto, attached to it. Jewishness is a culture with a religion, Judaism, attached to it.
And it is true that some Jews will take any criticism of Israel personally. I, myself, don't mind criticism of the Israeli government, with which I often do not agree, nor of the ultra-Orthodox bigots, but do resent it when that criticism spills over to all Jews, which it often does.
The "race" appellation is irrelevant, because the concept is too muddy to be useful. Scientists abandoned it years ago.
One concept that the Christian-raised do not understand is that in Christianity, you are not BORN a Christian. First you have to be baptized (at whatever age), and second you have to be confirmed, or make some kind of public statement of your acceptance of Jesus as your savior. In Judaism, and in Japan, and in African tribes, on the other hand, you are BORN into your tribe. There is never ANY necessity of public confirmation that you are Jewish or Japanese or Luganda or whatever. You just are. The Bar Mitzvah is NOT a confirmation of Jewishness; it is the acknowledgment that the child is now an adult and eligible for adult rights and responsibilities. The Reform Jews DO have a confirmation ceremony, but that it a very late add-on copied from Christianity, again, in the attempt to become assimilated and as Protestant as possible in order to head off anti-Semitism, for all the good THAT did. The Reform movement was founded in Enlightenment Germany, for the purpose of being accepted as good Germans -- Jews had never been accepted as citizens of any country in Europe that they had ever lived in.
As far as the Japanese, they will say they are not religious, but they will go on celebrating Buddhist and Shinto ceremonies, because they consider that a part of their culture -- there was historically (and still usually is) no concept of religion as separate from culture. When the Christian missionaries came in (and that's another long story which deserves a different thread), they had to INVENT words for Christian concepts, which had never existed in Japan before. Again, Christians have a concept of the separation of religion and culture, but Jews and Japanese, and pre-Christian and Muslim Africans didn't.
As far as the traditional Jewish community in your area -- of course they shop on Sunday -- they wouldn't violate the Sabbath, which is on Saturday. They're actually NOT dressed like Abraham Lincoln, but instead, like the Polish gentry of the 18th and 19th centuries. That was considered "fashionable" at the time, and they have become fossilized, much like the Amish, in that time period. Again, like the Amish, their practices are frozen in that time period, and they have a very hard time adapting to modern culture, and mostly WON'T. That's their right, per freedom of religion, but they are certainly NOT representative of the majority of Jews in this country.
And while you are somewhat sarcastic, you're not an ass -- you brought up questions which I am happy to talk about.
 Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on January 12, 2012 at 1:50pm

Natalie, I hadn't thought about comparing Jewish with Japanese/Shintoism. The comparison I usually thought of was the comparison with Gypsies, another group of people that wandered around, had a distinct ethnicity because it kept separate while in other lands, and had their own religious traditions.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 4:14pm

The problem of comparison with the Gypsies (Roma/Sinti), is that they DID convert to Christianity for all the good it did them. They are still horribly discriminated against in the countries where they are numerous, much hated and excluded. I remember seeing Roma children begging on the street in Romania (their Asian Indian heritage makes them quite recognizable), where they are not allowed, either by their community, or by the state, to go to school, and thus have no way of bettering themselves, and no livelihood except what they can scrabble together. No wonder they're derided as thieves and carnival fortune-tellers when they literally had no other way to subsist!
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 15, 2012 at 11:17am

Natalie - Any group of people....a cultural group such as Gypsies - most have learned that by grouping together - (Jews are famous for this) they bring themselves out of poverty and dispair.
Gypsies for example could have picked a base where they wanted to reside - begun to purchase land - have their own business' etc.....over a period of time...they to would have progressed - and those that 'didn't like them' can go to hell.
Perhaps this particular grouping of people just have no feelings towards 'roots'...it's just not in their DNA to settle down etc. If that's the case - then they will never assimilate into this would. That's their choice and it's a very hard life.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 1:10pm

John - I think a correction is in order. The 'race' of Jewish people is HUMAN. Or to be specific - homo-sapien. Perhaps you're meaning ethnicity?
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 1:16am

HI John,
I think I am also guilty of this mistake.
 
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 8:56am

yep


                





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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
Back to Hang With Friends Discussions
.



I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on January 12, 2012 at 1:49pm

Criticizing Israel's policies is not anti-Semitic in itself, but I do think the disproportionate focus on Israel's *horrible crimes* while paying no attention to or making excuses for the actions of all the other countries in the area is evidence of anti-Semitic bias.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 3:37pm

No, John.  I don't think that would cause you to be classified as anti-Asian.
But the whole "Jews started this evil thing, and in Isreal they continue to do so today" statement Stephen made earlier doesn't sound like it's just being critical of the nation of Israel.  I'm not trying to accuse anyone of being anti-semitic. Take it from me, I've made many of these same statements before and I don't consider myself to be anti-Semitic (just one-sided as hell, sometimes). What really burns me is that I made almost that exact same statement before on another one of Natalie's discussions..  
This is a subject which always invites discussion-quite often heated discussion.  Ethnicity sounds like such a little thing.  It's not.
  If something exists, then it can be talked about. If atheists can't have a civilized discussion on a topic like this, then I don't expect anyone else to.  But we CAN have a civilized discussion on this topic, so I'm all for that.  
  This whole blog has been quite informative despite the "heaviness" in some parts.  I enjoy this group for just this reason.  I always learn something.
Considering how many responses Natalie's blogs on this subject always generates, I can't wait for the next one.  Where there is disagreement, so long as rational dialogue can be maintained, eventually there is understanding-but that doesn't guarantee agreement.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 4:28pm

John, it's perfectly OK for you to disagree with what North Korea is doing. But if you held it against the civilians of North Korea who have no influence on their government's actions, and South Koreans, and people of Korean descent in other countries, that would be a different thing.
And if you ONLY concentrated on North Korea to the total exclusion of the problems that are occurring in the neighboring countries of North Korea, for example, China, Taiwan and the Philippines, then, yeah, I would think you had a specific bias against North Korea which might not be justifiable.
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 13, 2012 at 12:06pm

Or paying no attention to or making excuses for actions in countries not in the Middle East.
For centuries, English Catholics and non-Catholic xians slaughtered as many of each other as they could.

 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 6:17pm

Natalie - Israeli Jewish people treat 'visitors' completely different than if you're part of their family. There is a reason for this but I won't go into it at this time.
I could go visit Israel and be treated fine. I could see all the lovely sights and see all the lovely women. I'm not part of their family's nor am I part of their business dealongs - other than I will be treated nicely because I'm a visitor hopefully with lots of MONEY.
I believe that's exactly what you experienced when you 'visited' that country. Living there and intermingling within family's and their workforce/workplace is a different animal.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 7:01pm

Those darn Jews have become as bad as Disneyworld!
 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg on January 11, 2012 at 1:13pm

i've dealt with something similar my whole life.  i was raised Catholic, but my father was Jewish (hence my last name, Greenberg).  most people are very confused, and simply say that i am Jewish, or at least 1/2 jewish.  my response was always you can't be half of a religion (Judaism), but i would agree that part of my culture is Jewish.  in that regard, i guess you could call me a Jewish Catholic (at the time), but you can see where that is a false label.
 
i have 2 Jewish friends who are both Atheists, but they very much embrace their Jewish heritage.  Atheism is not a big deal to either of them - they don't really ever think about it.  their Atheism came quite natural to them and required little to no digging.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 11:34am

As you know, Jews include just as wide a spectrum of belief, observance and action as other peoples do (I intentionally did NOT say "religion" because Jewishness is NOT just a religion -- that idea comes from the Jews of my parents' generation who were desperately trying to assimilate in order to avoid the anti-Semitism which was quite prevalent in their time).
It is very clear in later Jewish writings that the concept of god is formless and unknowable. From there, it's a very easy step to agnosticism, and for those to whom it makes sense, to atheism. We just don't carry the Christian baggage of concepts like original sin, heaven, hell, salvation, or what would Jesus do. Jewish writings are also very clear that what matters is what you DO in this life -- there is little to no concept or concern about an afterlife, or about reward and punishment. Jews have always been very legalistic (as are Muslims), and this is very apparent in books like Leviticus. But what is most interesting is that, except for fringe groups, Jews have ALWAYS considered it necessary for laws to be interpreted in context of culture and individual exigencies, not as literal commandments from God. That's why we not only have the Talmud, which is a compendium of arguments pro and con for how to interpret and apply ancient law to (then) modern situations. It is said that young people who have studied the Talmud score significantly higher on the LSAT than those who haven't, because the Talmud teaches you how to debate and support your position with proof from the writings available to you. (which is what some of the atheists here are doing quite successfully!)
After the Talmud, there is a great library of writings on the same subjects, such as the Shulchan Aruch (Long Table) and the Guide for the Perplexed by Maimonides, and there is a long history of famous scholars who contributed to the literature. And it is still going on. Just yesterday, I read an article by an ORTHODOX rabbi on how to include gays into full participation in the Jewish community. He quoted Torah, and he quoted Talmud, and made quite a logical and compassionate argument, considering modern scientific learning about the origins of homosexuality -- the article was quite beautiful. It's at http://morethodoxy.org/2012/01/11/homosexuals-in-the-orthodox-commu... and quite breathtaking for an Orthodox rabbi. Of course, most Orthodox rabbis won't currently be following him, but it's a start. (And Reform congregations have been freely accepting gays for decades).
More in response to other messages.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 1:29pm

I've found this discussion regarding culture being 'this or that'...such as 'my culture is Jewish'...not refering to the religion at all...just the 'heritage'.
This sort of 'thing' separates us. My name suggests and I know for a fact that my ancestors came from Italy - migrated to France - and in the 16th century migrated to Canada and then the U.S.
I relate not one tiny bit to Italy. Those people - next to American's are frickin fruit-cakey! Look at the Amanda knox trial! Besides, their ancestors were the Romans...and I want nothing to do with any of them...they are NOT my heritage. Neither are the French, nor the Canadian's - except I USE the Canadian's when I travel cause it's frickin embarrassing worldwide to be know as an American - you know - 39th out of 40 Western countries in ranking for math and other sciences. Only Turkey ranks lower on this scale. The entire world laughs at us and our religious ignorance.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 3:55pm

You know it's perfectly OK for you NOT to identify as an Italian, but anyone who sees your surname, and knows anything about the Italian language, will immediately identify you as someone with origins in Italy. You're lucky, because there isn't any cultural hatred or oppressions of Italians EVEN if they have their wacky side, and you can treat your Italian heritage any way you want to. People have probably said to you "That's an Italian surname, isn't it?" but it's just a curiosity question, and it ends there.
On the other hand, you are hesitant about identifying yourself as an American when you travel abroad. Could that be because people DO have and show hostility toward Americans? You mention embarrassment at being known as an American -- but there is no reason to be embarrassed, except as a reaction to how people might treat you. Well, Jews have experienced that kind of reception for millennia, and have been forced to live in special districts, and to show their Jewishness through colors and styles of dress, just so that Christian Europeans could harass them. In your case, all you feel is a little embarrassment (but enough that you hide your real identity), but to Jews, it was a threat to their livelihood, families and lives. I wonder if you can see the parallel.
To my mind, various ethnicities are a wonderful, endlessly interesting characteristic of the human race. I don't want us to all be the same -- it's incredibly boring to go to Tokyo, and eat at McDonald's. While there are basic mores that we need to share, such as the obvious "no murder" to the less obvious "we need to protect the ecology" (this is a subject that needs much discussion and debate), there are lots of ways that we can rejoice in our differences with respect, and no need to feel divided. Each individual is different from every other anyway, and I find that a reason to enjoy life, and not a reason to hate anyone or put them down.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 8:40pm

No argument from me that many groups have been discriminated against. I just talk about the Jews because I am one, and I DO have a good knowledge of Jewish philosophy, laws, culture, language and customs, and would like to see them represented fairly and dispassionately.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 11, 2012 at 1:31pm

Natalie: This should be a wonderful topic that we all can learn from!
I think I had previously recommended a book written by an American Jew that describes his Jewish family - recently Americanized - but still fully 100% believing that Israel Jews are the 'true' chosen peoples - thus they were pleased when this author marrried an Israel woman. It was the biggest nightmare regarding Israeli Jews I've ever read.
Leaving Judaism by James Einbein (not his real name).
I'd like to address a couple items for your consideration.
1. the word GOY...used by Israeli Jews towards everyone on the frickin planet (yes, other Jews are still GOYS because they're not Israeli)....some are more 'goy'  than others - apparently there's a sliding scale.
2. You have stated that Jews are an ethnic people. I say that's pure bullshit. They are Semitic peoples exactly like those Palestain's they fight with and kill and are killed. Dating back 4,000 years or so - they were murdering and taking only the virgin girls - genocide - and thus making them an 'ethnic' people because they murdered and or killed everyone for 100-Kilometers in ever direction. This sort of in-breeding certainly qualifies them for their very own special 'ethnic' status?
Take an Iranian - Iraqi - Syrian - Saudi - and line them all up - they all look damn near the same - dressed exactly alike I doubt anyone can tell the difference - 'ethnic' Jews? I don't accept it and don't believe it. Prove me wrong.
Now if one were to refer to these 'people' as Hebrews - a sect apart from other Semitic peoples - that make sence to me - just as a 'Persian' makes sense - not 'ethnic' still Semitic - but simply a different sect of an original very widespread Semitic peoples.






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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
Back to Hang With Friends Discussions
.



I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 12:24pm

1) I addressed the use of the word "goy" in a previous post, so please read that.
2) The meaning of the word "ethnic". The Oxford American dictionary defines it thusly:
◾1relating to a population subgroup (within a larger or dominant national or cultural group) with a common national or cultural tradition: ethnic and cultural rights and traditions leaders of ethnic communities
◾
relating to national and cultural origins: pupils from a wide variety of ethnic origins
◾
denoting origin by birth or descent rather than by present nationality: ethnic Indian populations

Jews certainly fulfill those characteristics: except when the Jews lived in their own land, they have always been a subpopulation of other countries, as have the Roma (Gypsies), Native Americans after colonialization, the Ainu in Japan, Muslims in China, etc. Jews certainly have shared national and cultural (and genetic) origins, regardless of what country they live in. And to be a Jew is defined by birth and descent, except in the case of people who intentionally convert -- that can be done in other groups too -- a non-Japanese can take Japanese citizenship, although it is difficult to do. And anyone who would want to convert to Judaism is crazy, but some people do.
Your little screed about them murdering and taking virgin girls and genocide is based on a culture that no longer exists, because it has evolved WAY away from that (and it may be myth to begin with) and has nothing to do with the ethnicity of Jews.
The use of the word "Hebrews" is a Christian way of distancing the people of Biblical times, whom they wanted to respect from modern Jews, whom they have historically hated, although there was a period of time, around WWII when Jews tried to use the word Hebrew to defuse the derogatory nature of the way the word Jew was being used (ex. "to Jew someone down, which is still common in places like Nebraska). My parents' military dogtags said "Hebrew" on them.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 1:37pm

My military dog tags said 'Protestant' on it - which really pissed me off - I wan't even close to being a god-damn Protestant. I was in Salt Lake City and that asswipe of a 'recruitor' wanted me to put Mormon on my tags...and I refused....that was none of his frickin business - and that was my only response when asked that question way back in 1965. They all can take a hike then and now. Christians just have this deep seeded hatred and 'power' within them that says something 'religious' MUST be placed on these frickin 'tags'.
My military 'service' didn't begin well from the beginning - and I never adjusted to the constant religious implications that seemed to pop up all the time. I spotted them - when others didn't have a clue.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 3:58pm

Of course, then and now, any person in the military should have the right to put anything they want to on their dogtags as far as religion or lack thereof. I'm sorry you had that horrible experience. And I'm sorry that religious people (mostly Christian, because that is the extremely dominant religion in this country, but not restricted to Christians) have infringed on your basic human rights. :-(
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 1:44pm

// Except when Jews lived in their own land //
And how did that all come about? If you're speaking of Joshua and his shock troops swarming across the River Jordan and killing and murdering entire civilizations 'because God promised this land to us'...is that what you're refering to?
While you dismiss 'that was a long time ago and no longer matters'...you're not pulling the curtain over my eyes. Jews teach those stories in their classes - it's a very important part of their 'teachings'....they know it and so do I. The 'HOLY LAND' is one of the biggest and most carefully crafted ideas in all of Jewish culture. Right along side and fighting tooth and nail are those Christians and those Muslims. Land that is pure crap - dirty and desert - made half way decent by modern day peoples of course - but to fight and murder each other over that crappy piece of real estate - the 'reasons' are based in that old Holy Book - and completely is based on religious beliefs.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 2:44pm

Yeah, Stephen, but literally every culture that has ever existed has exterminated and/or exploited other aboriginal inhabitants of the lands which they later claimed as their own.  Every war that is started in modern times progresses through various planning stages, but strangely enough, those plans always seem to favor attacking a people who just so happen to sit on a piece of real estate that the other side wants for one natural resource or another.
  If there wasn't oil in the Middle-east our own military and oil companies would have absolutely no interest in "peace processes in the Middle-east".  So long as Afghanistan sits on top of gold-rich land and more opium than anywhere else in the world, they will never know peace.
  Rome didn't just ask people for their land nicely, did they?  Nor did Nazi Germany (although they were allowed to annex the Sudetenland, as a friendly act of concession--you see how that turned out, don't you?).  Come to think of it the Huns and Mongols also could have benefitted from a few lessons in ettiquette (like at least wear a clean pair of underwear to your next pogram, will you fella?  And hey!  Watch out how rough you get with her, buddy-she's going to be one of your wives one day soon!).  And then there was that little snit we had here in the U.S. of A. with those pesky 500 nations of soul-less barbarians-um excuse me-"Native Americans".  BTW the word "barbarian" means "strange one" in Greek and is a referrence to a person being un-civilized because they were non-Greek and I thought the Greeks were supposed to be hospitable.  Great Brittain also wiped out a bunch of aborigines in Australia and in Africa among the Zulus-come to think of it, I'm not exactly sure that South Africans have always been white and spoken the queen's English...
 
 Yes the entire Bible contains campaigns against specific people or social movements and instructions to wipe them out. (Just read the New Testament, with the fact in mind that the Marcionite Christians were "socially incovenient" to the emergent "Pauline" movement).  But I still think that it's just more in line with Ms. Sera's intentions for this thread to ask questions about things that might open up your mind about a group of people who have dispersed throughout the whole of the Earth and who have held onto a sort of cultural identity that has evolved to adapt so well alongside so many different cultures, rather than to try and hold them accountable for some fault that they historically share with all other succesfully surviving people/organisms.
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 1:23am

Hi Patrick,
I was going to write something very similar to this as to how and why Israel was founded.

And then there was that little snit we had here in the U.S. of A. with those pesky 500 nations of soul-less barbarians-um excuse me-"Native Americans"
I was also going to mention this. The Israel's also demonize the Arabs in the same way and use this demonization as an excuse to murder. Will humans ever change?
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 17, 2012 at 8:43am

"Will Humans ever change?"
 leveni, have you forgotten?
Our earliest ancestors were not homo sapiens who one day misbehaved and were evicted from a garden. Believing that story can make anyone a pessimist.
They were blue-green algae on the surface of ponds. The larger and stronger algae engulfed (ate) nearby algae.
We are changing, s-l-o-w-l-y. There's reason for optimism, unless we are in a hurry.

 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 9:02am

:)
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 4:08pm

Well, you can't deny that the Jewish tribe originated somewhere, and it wasn't Europe, or there wouldn't be the abundant archaelogical evidence of their origin in the Middle East. 4000 years ago, EVERYONE was fighting everyone else -- the killing and murdering was not invented by, nor restricted to Jews, so why are you singling them out? You don't think all those other tribes, like the Nabateans, and the Moabites, and the Canaanites, etc. weren't all fighting among themselves, too?
Also, contrary to your belief, there is good, fertile land along the Jordan river. If there wasn't, no civilization would have arisen there. Also, why do you think that Jewish presence in the area started with Joshua murdering Canaanites? Because the victors in this case happened to be Jewish and happened to survive and preserve their version of history? The history of the area was far more complex than you are making it out to be. You don't know about who else murdered who else, because their histories were not preserved, but that doesn't mean that these things didn't happen. And no, Jewish oral history, later written down as the Tanach, was not entirely based on religious belief. Of course, that is included, but there is a lot more to it than that. It's more like a library of a culture and a complex set of cultural laws intended to govern community life, and is certainly not a book intended to push a religious creed. The New Testament fits that criteria, but the Jewish writings don't. The fact that things have changed radically in 4000 years doesn't change the nature of the writings as considered in the context that they originated.

 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 15, 2012 at 11:32am

Natalie - This is not a classroom that goes into every single cultural thing known about past history. It's just not that complicated nor complex.
The 'good' things about the Jewish history has nothing to do with any God.
The bad things all have to do with the 'will' of their God.
Since the first writings of Jews - there has been trouble. We don't speak about 'all those other tribes' because Jews apparently wiped them out completely - and if they had 'writings' and we had them...you can bet we'd be dissecting them to expose their 'GODS' also.
Should a find of Canaanite writings be found - we can have a discussion about them...but this thread is all about Jews. What they've done in the name of their God is what I'm concerned about - past and present.
I'd suggest you stop making excuses for the atrocities committed in the name of Jehovah. We can read and we know the history. far and away to many peol;le living on this planet believe these are the very words of God. That's enough for me to ridicule them without mercy. They give me no quarter - and I return the favor.
 
 Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on January 12, 2012 at 1:52pm

Why is there DNA specific to Jewish people if they have no ethnic basis?
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 1:37am

Hi Prog,

Why is there DNA specific to Jewish people if they have no ethnic basis?
I too am wondering about this.
If Jews are Jews because of religion then there would be no DNA specific to Jews.
But if there was a Jewish race, as Natalie has proposed, then there would be DNA specific to Jews. I don't know of any Jewish DNA.


                

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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg on January 11, 2012 at 2:00pm

good recent video on a similar topic:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtrZOq-DmuU
 
Dawkins interview Atheist Rabii
 Permalink Reply by Clarence Dember on January 11, 2012 at 2:59pm
Hi Nathalie. Just as there may be found a certain amount of dogma remaining amongst disavowed Christians, it shouldn't be represented that other religious order members can escape such blind spots when they evolve. The only chance a person has to be free of mysticism is the regular and timely evaluation of currently employed decision trees on some kind of cogent rational criterion across the full facets of being and interaction.
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 11, 2012 at 4:26pm

My mom's MD was affiliated with Cincinnati's Jewish Hospital. I was born there, and guess what.
I'm in my my thirties when she tells me that when she brought me home I didn't trust anyone.
I knew the reason, and was soon telling people the reason for circumcision is to prepare boys to go into business, where trust is unwise.
When we get past the anti-semitism and the accusations of anti-semitism, this will be a most informative thread.

 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 12:30pm

If they circumcised you against your parents' will, then that was a violation of your religious freedom. Are you sure your mother didn't give permission?
As far as not trusting anyone, I REALLY doubt that's the reason, because there are way too many circumcised men in the Jewish and Muslim communities, not to speak of Christians who were circumcised when it was thought to be the healthiest thing to do for the baby, who have no problem with trust. Good business is BASED on trust -- you can't really do business otherwise. Unless you are accusing all circumcised men of cheating in business.
You don't even remember your circumcision, and your mistrustfulness is something you were born to have.
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 13, 2012 at 9:48am

Their circumcising me without first informing me and getting my consent (both of these were impossible) violated my freedom. I had no religion then and no religious freedom to violate.
My mother didn't tell me. Did they do the cutting before she recovered from the "hell" of giving birth? Decades later she said a baby is heaven going in and hell coming out.
The justifications I've heard are too tradition-serving to accept.
Good business BASED on trust? Natalie, you either haven't been in business or you have a unique definition of "based on".
Born to have mistrust? Natalie, that's fiction, or dogma. It's also unprovable.
- - - - -
I appreciate your OTHER efforts on this thread.

 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 13, 2012 at 11:47am

Natalie, adding to my reply to your "Good business is BASED on trust...."
If you had studied business law, even the introductory course I studied, you would know that business is done with a fear of punishment always in the parties' minds. For evidence, read a typical contract between two businesses, especially the clauses on breach of contract.

 Permalink Reply by Alice on January 11, 2012 at 4:42pm

Brilliant - thank you for offering the opportunity to educate us.

Free expression is really the only way to expression ignorant views than can then be corrected - if we never express it - we just act on our prejudice without being able to examine it.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 11, 2012 at 4:59pm

  I'm all up for discussing this subject, but under one condition-that we discuss food!  As you folks may or may not know, I'm ALL about food!  I've tried kosher baked chicken twice now (according to the recipe on the back of the kosher salt box).  It was delicious (and surprisingly bland considering the fact that it is baked while being totally encased in salt).  In fact, that is what keeps it so moist (who knew?!).  Baking it with a pierced lemon and some thyme inside the cavity makes it much more tasty-any other advice on how I could liven up the dish, while still keeping true to the culture that invented this recipe (whether that would be the semitic culture, or the Jewish culture, or the Hebrew culture--or whatever you wish to refer to it as) would be greatly appreciated.
  BTW  Are there any major differences between how different cultures of Jews prepare their food?  I know that it has to observe the same food laws, but I assume that there are still variations on style that are permitted within the context of kosher requirements.
 Permalink Reply by Alice on January 11, 2012 at 5:11pm

don't you think you're being taken for a ride by the salt manufacturers!  I suppose back near the red sea no one was short of salt - we've got al foil now - have to done a comparison?
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 11, 2012 at 5:51pm

THAT's a very distinct possibility.  After all those Hebrews are known for their marketing skills.  But still, it is fun to excavate the chicken from the salt.  Kosher salt is very coarse and when you bake a chicken in it, you drizzle the top of the salt with water-just enough that it forms a rock-like crust.  When you take the chicken out of it, you are left with a cast of the chicken.  It reminds me, somewhat, of those life-casts made from the victims of Mt. Vesuvius in Pompei-so it's fun to do anyway.
And anything that is fun is worth doing at least twice.
BTW  I'm also just an overgrown kid!
 Permalink Reply by Alice on January 11, 2012 at 6:13pm

sounds cool!
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 11, 2012 at 7:54pm

So it's okay to put meat and cheese together?  Cool.  I was never really clear on that one.








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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Alice on January 11, 2012 at 7:56pm

LOL
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 12:39pm

Nope, it's NOT OK. If you ate it in a "Jewish" deli, they were modifying their food to suit American tastes, just like Chinese restaurants do. That deli was NOT kosher, and an observant Jew would never eat there. However, the majority of American Jews are NOT that observant, and freely partake of American culture and would probably enjoy it.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 3:58pm

You're so lucky to live anywhere that there ARE delicatessans (I mean real ones).
 Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on January 12, 2012 at 1:54pm

I'm a Jew who doesn't like rye bread. Blasphemy!
Well, if they don't put caraway seeds it can taste good...
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 3:09pm

I love rye breads and hearty, crusty mediterreanean types-I've got no major problem with caraway seeds, but they're not my favorite either.  Anise can also ruin a good bread quick-and anise-flavored breads (and drinks) are popular in Greek/Mediterranean cuisine.
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 14, 2012 at 3:30pm

Mm-mm, caraway liqueur.
To a cup and a half of vodka, add a teaspoon of caraway seed and let mature for a month (two weeks if you crush the seed). Add a half-cup of syrup (dissolve a cup of sugar in a half-cup of boiling water, stir and cool before adding). Enjoy.
My favorite though is chocolate liqueur and creme de cacao.
For the liqueur: To a cup and a half of vodka, add two tsp of chocolate extract, a half-tsp of vanilla extract, and a half-cup of syrup (prepared as above). Optionally mature for 1-to-2 weeks. Enjoy.
For the creme de cacao: double the amount of syrup, optionally mature and enjoy.

 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 14, 2012 at 1:48pm

That actually sounds pretty good!  I used to make my own absinthe-not too different only the absinthe was REALLY bitter.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 4:16pm

I don't like caraway seeds, either! I do like Russian rye bread, though! :-)
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 12:35pm

Yes, there are variations in how the laws are observed. The basics are the same, but for example, during Passover, the Ashkenazim (those who lived in Central and Eastern Europe) do not allow beans or legumes, because they can be fermented, whereas the Sephardim (originally living in Spain, then scattered all over the Mediterranean region, the Netherlands and the New World) and the Mizrahim (those who never left the Middle East) eat legumes and beans freely during Passover.
Another example is that Ashkenazic matza balls are round, but Yemenite matza balls are triangular!
Then, of course, the food of different groups differs depending on what was available in their region. Jewish cooking is usually an adaptation of the cooking of the local region -- for example, the Poles used pork, but there are similar Jewish recipes that used beef instead.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 12:58pm

  Thanks for the clarification, Natalie!  I remember now that in his book "The Source", James Michener mentions the Sephardim having different dietary standards than the Ashkenazim. Beans and legumes--terrific!  (I love Greek food and during Lent, Greeks eat lots of beans and legumes).  All the matza  that I have ever seen have been the round ones (generally available as prepackaged "matza ball soup mix" where I live-which I'm sure is a poor excuse for the homemade version).  Thanks also for the clarification on meats and cheeses.  I knew that they couldn't be stored together (not that they should be anyway-who wants their fontina to taste like roast beef and ham?).  But I didn't know whether or not you could eat them together-I assumed that as long as you didn't cook the meat in milk (as Greeks are wont to do with lamb and goat), that it might be okay-since you weren't "seething a kid in it's mother's milk".  Thanks for your input, I know better now.
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 11, 2012 at 6:38pm

Hi Joan,
Are you here to dictate to us what Judaism is or are you unconsciously trolling?
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 11, 2012 at 7:43pm

Leveni - I do not see a posting from 'Joan' on this thread. Anyone posting on these threads are NOT trolling - as only atheists are allowed. That means everyone's postings are equal and should be treated with at least a bit of respect. Don't you think?


                




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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
Back to Hang With Friends Discussions
.



I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 12, 2012 at 5:07am

Hi Steven and Joan and Natalie,
Oops sorry, I got Joan's and Natalie's picture mixed up. Sorry to Joan, Natalie and Ruth. Yes, Ruth also, I always get you 3 mixed up.
 

...treated with at least a bit of respect. Don't you think?
Natalie's post is based on a nondescript assumption that people are ignorant of the 'truth' about Jewishness, Israel and Judaism.
For example:
'ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it': (sounds like something I would write)
Linguistically the Israelites are Semites. Along with Assyrian's, Arab's, Yemeni's, Eritrean's, Northern Sudanese and others.
Religiously, they are of the Abrahamic group of religions. Along with Muslims and Christians, Druze, Mandeans and Shia-Muslims.
Ancestry: All Jews feel they can prove they are the offspring of Abraham, many Muslims also feel this way. Shia Mullahs who wear a black turban are supposedly direct descendants of Abraham via Muhammad, the black turban is proof of this.
Genetically: Time will tell. There is only 0.5% genetic variation between humans and only 2.7% genetic variation between Chimps and Humans. So if any particular ethnic group wants to prove their ethnicity genetically, they could be in for a shock in the not so distant future. Some ethnic groups are going to be proven to be more closely related to Chimps than others.
Question 1: What is a Jew?
 
Jewish world view?: I am sure that Natalie's personal view of the world and how the world and its people should be treated is probably a good one. It is probably a good world view because Natalie is a good person, based on what she has written. But I can not accept that her world view comes from Judaism, Jewishness or Israel.
For Example: Theft of land. Destruction of farms. Murder. These things are part of ancient and modern Israel. Question 2: Are these examples also part of the Jewish world View?
 
Judaism: This is an Atheist web site. Of course most people are going to be hostile toward Judaism. Judaism is a sect that condones slavery, misogyny, racism, murder and lots of other nasty things.
Question 3: What is Judaism?
 
Israel: I haven't heard of anything anti-Israel here. And I don't think there is any unpredictable hostility toward Israel in the world.
Question 4: Is modern Israel good for those Palestinians that lost everything or who have been murdered by the state of Israel?
 
I have read many of Natalie's posts, via automatic email. And like most posts here at Atheist-Nexus, they are thought out well enough to put a point of view across that can be debated. Personally I agree with many of Natalie's posts and usually never have any contradictory feelings about her posts. But, just because Natalie is a good person and deserving of respect etc, doesn't mean everything Natalie thinks, feels or writes is also deserving of respect.
 
I was wondering why Natalie posted this post, and I just now read Natalie 's response to Carl Pastors "The Problem of Evil". Maybe this is one of the main reasons for this thread.

Finally, if somebody came in here and started a similar thread about Islamic-atheists, I would put up similar statements and questions as I have above.
 
And thanks for the polite caution Steve, I'll keep hold of it.
 
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 8:14am

    When it comes to ethnicity-Jewish or otherwise-, most people (especially myself) are ignorant.  I have a tendency to perceive of myself as "culturally amorphous", in that I don't perceive of any outstanding differences between myself and the rest of the world-except that I'm gay.
  And even though "gay" doesn't count as an ethnicity (primarily because we don't exactly tend to produce gay children, or even children at all for that matter), we definitely DO have at least some perception of a culture that is kind of unique to us, although much of that was created more by society at large, than by gays ourselves.  Ethnicity can be seen in much the same way.  It is harder to define than it looks.
  You are correct that there is only an extremely misucule fraction of genetic variation between any two humans, regardless of perceived race, nation of origin, or familial bloodline.  That does not mean, however, that genetic difference is the only difference between peoples of two different cultures.  Take the Serbs and the Kurds, for example.  The only real difference is that one group is Orthodox/Catholic, while the other is Muslim.  That's it!  And yet that doesn't stop one group from seeking the extermination of the other.
  Apparently ethnicity has some rather soft definitions, but it is also true that even short periods of insularism can have distinct effects on a persons genetics (hemophilia, sickle-cell anemia, Tay-Sachs, etc.).  I myself have a blood disorder (factor V-Leiden so named because it was discovered in Leiden, Switzerland, where quite a few people seem to suffer from blood-clotting disorders) that causes hyperthrombism (excessive clotting).  In fact, as I write this, I am at home on doctors orders because of a blood clot in my right foot.  This particular blood disorder is thought to possibly have originated from the fact that survival in Northern climes favored people with lower viscosity blood (because it retains body heat better).
  But ethnicity doesn't specifically require a genetic difference to affect a social difference among those deemed "ethnic".  Social class or a perception by a society at large that a person comes from "somewhere else" are often enough to ostracise a person or an entire group of people. Skin tone also creates a perception of "different-ness".  If you recall the 2008 presidential elections, remember that Sarah Palin et al. kept accusing Barack Obama of being "secretly foreign" (he was born in Hawaii-which to a conservative southern white IS a foreign county, just like California and Miami).  Gypsies have also faced persecution throughout the years-not specifically because of their heritage, but rather because of their perceptions as being filthy, theiving, wandering vagabonds.
  Ms. Sera informs me that if your mother is Jewish, then you are considered a Jew.  Therefore when it comes to Jews, it's not really a religious identity thing, it's a blood heritage (of course, you can convert to the religion of Judaism, but not to the culture itself, conceivably, unless this included a conversion to the religion).  It would be nigh impossible to convert from being a run-of-the-mill southern white atheist, into a Jewish atheist (or secular Jew), or at least I don't suppose that would be very possible since secular Jews are born into the social fabric of Judaism and then emerge as atheists/agnostics against a background that either rejects their choice outright or embraces them, but as members of a sub-group within the greater community as a whole. 
  Once on an episode of Seinfeld, Jerry's dentist converted to Judaism and became insufferable about his newfound heritage.  The comic element, of course being that Jerry's character is that of a secular Jew, being told by a converted Jew about the struggles "of our people".
  In the Middle-east, children are born into a social fabric that seems overshadowed by the specter of genocide.  Their cultural heritage differs not by choice or genetics or even necessarily by region of birth, but rather by virtue of birth into a culture that is hated by the other side.  It is impossible for the mind of a child to understand what it must mean to be a Jew/Muslim/Seikh/Yezidi, but rest assured that when they grow up, they will know by way of life experince why they can be born on the same street, in the same town as another, only to have a neighbor fire-bomb their house in the middle of the night.  So then ,yes, ethnicity is not non-existant-at least not in the sense of perception-as it has literally affected the lives of millions of people and continues to do so.  Some of the considerations of various ethnic groups depend on old and outdated modes of inheritance or laws, that while no longer very understandable in todays world refuse to vanish from social habit so quickly (perhaps the term "meme" applies correctly here).
  I have been pwned (if that "meme" is still in use) by Ms. Sera before on the subject of ethnicity.  I too, thought that if it wasn't reducible to genetics in a demonstrable way that it was b.s.  But there are factors that come into play in the lives of those raised in stetls, ghettos, and on kibbutzim that do not have any effect on the rest of us.  That does not mean they don't exist.
And when it comes to genocide and land thieving many members of the Cherokee nation might have some thoughts to share on that as well.  
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 16, 2012 at 11:24pm

Hi Patrick,
I understand what you are saying. The problem I have with this topic is that there are no facts here. Only personal opinion. For example:

Sera informs me that if your mother is Jewish, then you are considered a Jew.  Therefore when it comes to Jews, it's not really a religious identity thing, it's a blood heritage
This is meaningless. If I am born to a women who considers herself a Jew, this doesn't automatically make me a Jew. Only through constant indoctrination will a child born of a Jewish woman believe him/herself to be a Jew. Nothing to do with blood at all, only personal opinion being pushed onto a human from childhood. Nothing more.

 And even though "gay" doesn't count as an ethnicity (primarily because we don't exactly tend to produce gay children, or even children at all for that matter), we definitely DO have at least some perception of a culture that is kind of unique to us,
They is a major difference here. If from a young age you were told to only like girls, is this ok? Or if you were told to only have sexual relations with boys, is this ok? Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists only believe what they believe because of indoctrination. They force their children to believe what they believe. Nothing else.
 
Why are you gay? Are you gay because your parents indoctrinated you into being gay? Did you mother give you a gay sweater(re:Seinfeld) when you were a child, and this turned you gay?
People only think themselves Jews because of indoctrination.
Question to you Patrick: Are you gay because of indoctrination?
 




 
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 17, 2012 at 5:50am

leveni, as we all know, several sciences have shown the origin claims of many religions to be myths (false, frauds, lies, etc).
DNA analysis might someday show Judaism's Jewish ethnicity claim is a myth--a claim made because some Jewish leaders fear that decreasing numbers of Jews result in ethnic extinction?
Are you saying DNA analysis has already shown the claim to be a myth?

 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 8:47am

Hi Tom,

Are you saying DNA analysis has already shown the claim to be a myth?

Before proving it a myth, I'd like a categorical definition of what an Ethnic Jew is. All I have so far is somebody who converts to Judaism or somebody whose mother is a Jew.
If anybody from anywhere is allowed to convert to Judaism then the ethnic Jewish tribe thing is a myth. Judaism would be by definition a religion.
If Judaism is matrilineal, and if according to the bible men are allowed to take women from non-Jewish tribes they conquer, then homogeneous ethnic Judaism can not exist. Again it would be a myth.
 
Rather than only trying to prove Jewish ethnicity is a myth we should also try to prove it has existed since the time of Abraham. So when is the first biblical Jew proven to exist independently of the old testament?
Also where is the oldest Jewish grave with human remains in it?
 
If ethic Jews are proven to exist via DNA, should all the Muslims, who have the same DNA, be allowed to enter Israel and live? If not, then Judaism is a religion, not a race.
 

 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 17, 2012 at 9:05am

leveni, here's a truth for you: A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 9:38am

Hi Tom,
What can I say.
 
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 17, 2012 at 8:27am

When did I say that I was gay because of indoctrination?  I only said that gay people perceive themselves to have a similitude of a culture among themselves (one that is for the most part based on the perceptions of others, more so than an indigenous set of experiences).  You kind of just go whereever you want to with your argument that I am claimimg that gays are a culture i the same way that religions are a culture-I don't understand for one moment where you came up with the opinion that I even hinted at that.
  Every person born shares some of their mother's DNA, and if that is what is being used as the point of claiming a familial bond (as opposed to paternal Y chromosomes), then I don't see a problem.Although that in truth makes one no more related to their mother than to their father-hence genetic inheritance as a base for claiming to be "genetically Jewish", or whatever, seems sketchy at best.
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 9:21am

Hi Patrick,

When did I say that I was gay because of indoctrination?
You didn't.
My point is that Jews are Jews because of indoctrination, nothing else.
Gay culture exists, but not as an ethnic group or as a group formed through indoctrination. I don't think Gay and Jew are comparable in the same way. Sure, Natalie is Jewish but only because of indoctrination, nothing else. But you, why are you gay?
 
My main reason for participating in this whole thread is to get a clear natural world provable definition of what an ethnic Jew is.
 
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 17, 2012 at 11:43am

I doubt that you ever will.
Certainly not until you define "clear" and "natural world provable". The first is a wonderfully ambiguous term.
If you do get that definition, will you sleep more soundly?

 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 20, 2012 at 9:34am

My point wasn't about being gay, leveni, rather it was about "gay culture" which IS something one would have to be indoctrinated into.  Pink upside down triangles, pinch attire, rainbow flags and pride parades, swishy mannerisms and vocalizations, as well as other gay cliches are not natural results of a persons genetic traits.  They are affectations, as are all cultural stances.  They are learned behavior, whether they have meaning to the person performing them or not.  Natalie is her mother's child by birth, just as I am gay by birth.  If Natalie can be defined as Jewish because she is the daughter of a Jewish woman, then she IS Jewish by birth.  That is all I meant.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 5:36pm

Leveni - // I don't think I've heard anything anti Israel here //
 
Well - Except my postings that have specificially stated Israeli Jews think every other non-Israeli Jew is a GOY - and that includes non-Jews. I've posted the book written by an American Jew that - in detail - non-disputable terms - has written it out in many chapters for all to see exactly how the Israeli Jewish community acts towards 'others;.







http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/judaism-jewishness-and-everything-you-were-never-taught-in-school?groupUrl=hangwithfriends&groupId=2182797%3AGroup%3A1248185&id=2182797%3ATopic%3A1819179&page=6#comments











 







Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 13, 2012 at 9:28am

Hi Steven,

I don't think I've heard anything anti Israel here
Me either. I can't think of anything anti-Israel here.  But I wrote what I wrote because of the following written by Natalie.

the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Natalie has put no example about this ignorance. This is what got me. But she has made the post so I will go through it next week.
I happen to know a lot about the foundation of Modern Israel. And will be posting it next week.
But I feel there is something wrong with this whole thread. Judaism and Jewishness are totally religious. Everything about the two is based solely on religion, nothing else.
 
Natalie has made the following statements:

rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist
our world-view.
Where are the examples of these points?
 
From my personal atheist perspective:
Judaism is a myth, therefore Natalie can not be Jewish.  I can never accept anybody as being Jewish. Nor can I accept anyone as being a Muslim, a Christian etc etc. In Natalie's mind she thinks she is Jewish but the reality is, she is a homosapien. Genetically only 2.7% different from a chimpanzee. Her classification as a homosapien is provable. Her classification as being Jewish is not provable.
 
Can Natalie be classified as an ethnic Semite, or an Israelite, I would say yes. This can be proven genetically. But Jewish, nobody can be proven to be genetically Jewish. Because Judaism doesn't exist.
 
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 15, 2012 at 1:03pm

Got to answer a couple of things. You wrote "
Me either. I can't think of anything anti-Israel here.  But I wrote what I wrote because of the following written by Natalie.

the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Natalie has put no example about this ignorance. This is what got me. But she has made the post so I will go through it next week."
I am interested in what you post, but here's an example of ignorance: the claim that Steven made that Israelis consider everyone who is not Israeli a "goy" and look down on them. Simply not true.
The general Christian idea that the Jewish god is a vengeful, angry god, and Jesus is kind and compassionate -- that is a miscomprehension based on the writings of a few prophets, and does not characterize the whole of Jewish philosophy, which is very much legally-based, and extremely concerned with maintaining goodness, kindness and fairness in the community. You can take god out of the equation, as I do, but the value remains.
The idea that the Jews killed Jesus, which is manifestly and patently impossible, although it was used by Christians as an excuse to kill and oppress Jews all over Europe through the millennia.
I could go on but I won't, because it would end up being a book. I prefer to answer questions, NOT because I want to convert people -- I wouldn't be here if I was a religious Jew, but because I would like to see genuine knowledge about my ethnic group. I forget who posted it, or where, but there was a message full of hatred against Jews, simply for being Jews, regardless of anything else, and that is what spurred me to start this thread.
As far as Judaism being a myth -- that's an overgeneralization! Jewish MYTHOLOGY is of course, a myth, but there is nothing mythological about philosophy, customs, language, archaeology, and genetics. You can take all god references out of Jewish philosophical writings, and they're still solid.
Christians and people raised in Christianity have the concept of religion as being separate from culture, and of religion being consciously accepted or imposed on children. You can be from any nation in the world and still be Christian if you declare that you have accepted Jesus as your savior. You were NOT born that way, and as atheists, you have rejected the dominant religion of your country, WITHOUT rejecting its culture, which is why many atheists celebrate Christmas, for example.
Jews, and Muslims, and many other cultures in the world do not have this concept. You are BORN a Jew or a Muslim, or a Hawai'ian, or a Native American for that matter, and there is no question that you are a member of the tribe. Yes, it's tribalism, and Christianity explicitly rejected tribalism, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As a child, I had a hard time understanding that Christians weren't born that way, because I had been brought up with the unspoken understanding that I was a member of a tribe (although we didn't call it that), and couldn't understand that Christianity ISN'T a tribe.
You can nitpick semantics -- call me a Semite, or an Israelite, or a Hebrew or a Jew -- it all amounts to the same thing, although Arabs are Semites as well, but definitely not Jewish. They are clearly a related group of tribes, but absolutely not the same. And yes, I'm homo sapiens (but also 2.6% Neanderthal, per 23andme), but to deny the existence of human tribes is patently ridiculous. I'm proud and happy about my Neanderthal heritage, but unfortunately know nothing about their culture, language or anything else. But I DO know about my Jewish heritage, and it suits me to identify with and enjoy those parts of it that don't involve prayer and worship. The philosophical arguments are varied and wonderful, and I'll NEVER get to the end of them. And if I can help people to understand Jewish history and philosophy WITHOUT any reference to religion necessary, then I want to do that.

 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 16, 2012 at 5:01am

Hi Natalie,

nitpick semantics
Sorry. I also dislike semantic games, so I'll stick with Jewish, Jew, Judaism etc.

 ...I could go on but I won't, because it would end up being a book
Ok, I think I understand this point. Which I think is: the Christians decided to adopt the Jewish faith without really understanding everything Judaism was. Therefore Christian understanding of Judaism's God was flawed from the start.

  As far as Judaism being a myth -- that's an overgeneralization! Jewish MYTHOLOGY is of course, a myth, but there is nothing mythological about philosophy, customs, language, archaeology, and genetics. You can take all god references out of Jewish philosophical writings, and they're still solid.
In this case, what is the origin of Judaism? Does it matter?
 

You are BORN a Jew or a Muslim, or a Hawai'ian, or a Native American for that matter, and there is no question that you are a member of the tribe.
... You(Christians) were NOT born that way
Ok, I see the problem we are going to have here, or maybe it's a difference of opinion. And our opinions are very different here. But I can see the point you are trying to make.
Take the Kaifeng Jews for example. Genetically, linguistically, culturally they are going to be indistinguishable from the Han Chinese. Yet, Israel has accepted a few of them as Jews, after a few ceremonies. I also read of 3 girls from Henan Province who also got Israeli citizenship, so they could study in Israel.
So are these people Chinese or Jews or Persian(Because they are descended from Persian Jews)?
With Muslims, just because the Quran says the child of 2 Muslims is a Muslim doesn't make it true. Just because Jewish custom says a Child born of a female Jew is a Jew, doesn't make this true either. These are just man made laws, they have nothing to do with the natural world.
Also if I get a Palestinian kid and a Jewish kid and swap them at birth, Culturally they will believe what ever they are taught.
 

deny the existence of human tribes is patently ridiculous
Apart from genetics, the only definition of a tribe I know of is in the Aboriginal Land rights act 1984.
"Aboriginal person" means a person who:
(a) is a member of the Aboriginal race of Australia, and
(b) identifies as an Aboriginal person, and
(c) is accepted by the Aboriginal community as an Aboriginal person.
In Israel the law of return is what determines Israeli citizenship. And there are only two ways to get this. Via a religious conversion or if your mother is Jewish. In the future this could cause a real problem if genetic testing were to be brought in.
 
When it comes to race based tribes, it can be proven via genetics. And what I think your main point is, is that the Jewish race came first. And after that the tribe adopted the religion.

But I DO know about my Jewish heritage, and it suits me to identify with and enjoy those parts of it that don't involve prayer and worship.
This is where it becomes difficult. And it is difficult because Science(Genetics) is being mixed up with Cultural Identity(personal opinion).
What I think you are describing has more to do with belonging, feeling, food and dance. I don't think science(genetics) should be included in any definition of 'What is a Jew?' If we use genetics to prove who is from what tribe, what will all the European Jews do when it is genetically proven they aren't Jews. And what will all the Palestinian Bedouin Muslims and Yemeni's do when it is proven they are Ethnic Jews of the Islamic faith?
After thinking about your original statement, I think it posses an interesting problem/dilemma if proven or accepted as true. Actually you are going to create a lot of head aches if you get your way in regards to proving Jews are an Ethnic group and not a religious group.
 
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 16, 2012 at 2:06pm

Natalie - // here is an example about this ignorance - the claim that Steven (that's me) made that all Israeli's consider everyone that is not Israel a GOY //
That's NOt what I said Natalie. I'm just the messenger. That was not only stated by a JEW - but one that was not born in Israel but married an Israeli woman - lived there - has children there - and without your knowledge - has presented a complete book regarding communities, entire cities, businesses etc. in Israel and how they 'really' look on outsiders.
 Yes, even Jews from decent from other countries are NOT equal in status (or even close) to a Jew born in Israel.
Deny it - run away from it - but don't read the book about all this as I've presented (as the messenger) already. Should you order and read his book...only then can you discuss the truth of how Israeli Jews feel about othr Jews (outsiders) and people such as myself.
Once you've educated yourself and read Einbein's book...you can then even contact the writer (as I certainly have multiple times) and have a  really concrete discussion.
I'm obviously not just spouting off about Israeli Jews and the word GOY. I had never even heard that word before "Leaving Judaism'. Now I know it well and it's about as nasty and vile a word as any JEW ever thought up.
Don't worry. Christians took over - multiplied and overran the Earth - and also have many 'choice' words for people like me.
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 16, 2012 at 10:03pm

I used to live with an Arab Jew in Melbourne, he was livid towards the European Jews. "In the army, the European Jews get all the good jobs, whilst the Arab Jews get all the shit jobs."  Even in the street, he would get "questioned by the police constantly". Once he showed them his Jewish ID he was ok. I think he was an anti-Semitic Semite. :)
 
Another example of European Jewish racism comes from my boss in Japan. He is an Arab Jew from Morocco. After being kicked out of Morocco and emigrating to Israel, he was on a bus with his mother.
They were speaking Arabic, their mother tongue when an European Jewish woman came up to his mother and spat right in his mothers face and told them both to get out of Israel because Israel was only for the Jews. They explained to the woman they were Jews. That woman then told them to never speak Arabic in Israel again. My boss decided to take the initial advice, he got a scholarship to Switzerland from the German embassy, married a Japanese woman he had met in Switzerland and became a Japanese citizen. Problem solved.
 
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 20, 2012 at 2:08pm

Leveni - In his book 'Leaving Judaism' - the author's wife's parents/family were from Morocco - imigrated to Israel...I believe his wife was born in Israel though. Their attitude was shown as being superior - because they lived in Israel...their business dealing etc. were all quite nasty. The author, being the husband of their daughter was a goy...outright and plainly stated...because he was just an American Jew - far and away below Israel standards. The author's children were treated special becaus eof course, their mother was an Israeli Jew.
It's obvious by your posting above that Israeli Jews are just as hateful and bigoted towards their own as Christians are towards each other with special vile towards homosexuals and atheists.
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 7:17pm

Hi Tom,
Once I get started on something I just keep on going.
After Googling 'what is a Jew' I've found 10's of millions of definitions and people who consider themselves Jews can't even define it.
I think I now realize what Natalie was trying to do. She wasn't trying to scientifically define Jewish, she was hoping to share her experiences as a Jew. Oh well.
 Permalink Reply by Mac Rex on January 11, 2012 at 6:58pm

I would like to point out a couple of facts, that haven't been mentioned yet.  About 80% of the "Jewish" people in Israel are of "Yiddish" (Ashkenazi) decent, who immigrated there just prior to, and after WW2.  I had my Mitochondrial DNA sequenced, and discovered that one of the very small group of people descended from one of the 4 founding women of Ashkenazi Jews.  This means that my Great, etc., Grandmother married a Jewish man in 13th century Germany, thus becoming a founder of  Ashkenazi Jews, in spite of having never been near the middle east.  In fact,  my  Mitochondrial DNA shows that my maternal line left that area some where around 40,000 years before the raving psychopath of the desert was invented!!
Perhaps what makes a person adhere to their "Jewish" heritage, has more to do with the persecution that Jews have faced (both from with in and with out), than any real distinct genetics.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 11, 2012 at 7:38pm

MacRex - I am told by my Jewish friend that YIDDISH is the language spoken by Jews in Germany - nothing more and nothing less. It's equalivent to Southerners talking in the American South...nothing more nothing less. That's what a lifelong Jewish person says.
 Permalink Reply by Mac Rex on January 11, 2012 at 9:23pm

I've heard Ashkenazi Jews referenced as Yiddish, as they were the people who spoke it.  Also -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi
This also seems to miss my point about them being genetically very removed from people who's ancestors have continuously occupied the land that makes up Israel and Palestine.  Thus, their "Jewishness" comes from the religion they were infected with, and not from being genetically linked to the raving psychopath of the desert's "chosen" people.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 13, 2012 at 6:50pm

A reply to both of you. Yiddish is the Yiddish name for the language spoken by the Yiddish people, also known as Yidn IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE. It is a descendant of old German, with a lot of Hebrew and some Slavic words mixed in. It was spoken by Ashkenazic Jews in Germany and Eastern Europe. An interesting equivalent is Ladino, or Dzhudezmo, a combination of Spanish and Hebrew spoken by the Jews in Spain who were expelled in 1492, and immigrated to countries all over the Mediterranean, the Netherlands and the New World.
And Ashkenazic Jews are NOT so far genetically removed from Jews who never left the Middle East. Jews have been proven genetically to be a single people, with admixture from the other peoples they lived among. There is clear archaeological evidence of Jewish occupation of the lands along the Jordan until they were killed or driven out by the Romans. Why are you so unwilling to admit proven scientific fact? Your point about genetic remove is incorrect. And there are plenty of groups of Jews who never left the Middle East, either.
Now, I'm fully willing to accept the idea that Abraham is at best a legend, based on an oral history that was thousands of years old before it was written down. But Jewishness does NOT come from being "infected" with a religion, as if Jewish ancestors had no religion before they became established as a tribe. Why is it that other tribes can have their mythology, oral history, customs and ceremonies, and Jews can't?
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 13, 2012 at 8:03pm

//Why is it that other tribes can have their.......etc... //
Jews get ridiculed because they were stupid enough to write it all down' beginning with 'we are God's chosen ones'...and ending with the genocie of entire societies and taking only the virgin girls and once in a while a 'comely' woman that was basically kidnapped and raped under the guise of 'marriage'. All in the name of their God and under His orders.
So - go ahead an name any other 'tribe' that did all this - and proudly wrote it down for everyone to see. Should there be none it was because this 'tribe' of jews murdered and exterminated everyone in sight and burned anything and everything.
That's the reason we even talk about such a 'tribe'.



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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
Back to Hang With Friends Discussions
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 15, 2012 at 1:16pm

So Jews get dumped on for being literate when most of the other peoples who did similar things at the same time were illiterate? I thought literacy was a GOOD thing, LOL!!
But to take a wider view -- don't you think that the Sumerians, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Hittites, Romans and other early literate peoples didn't do the same things? The writings are there -- you're just not familiar with them. The Romans even printed coins with pictures of them carting off the grand Menorah from the temple with the phrase "Iudaea Capta Est" (Judea is captured).
And no, Jews didn't murder, exterminate, or burn everything in sight ANY more than everyone else in the area was doing at the same time -- the culture was PRIMITIVE, and just because the Jews (among others) survived doesn't mean that their descendants deserve permanent blame. If you want to condemn, do so fairly and without discrimination.

 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 16, 2012 at 1:19pm

Natalie - I think I see the problem here.
I absolutely know that Christians don't think all those 'things' I call atrocities listed in the OT are such. They say openly that the taking and raping of little virgins is Ok because their God ordered it - every single word is holy and precious....and all the rest.......
I don't know how Jews are taught about such things except that everyone thinks they also hold those books to be special and from God. So they never disprespect what was written. I do because I believe all those 'things' to be morally corrupt. If Jews and Christians today in 2012 actually hold such things to be from 'GOD' then I hold them in contempt.
God-believers never bring such 'stuff' up do they? They never openly talk of genocide, torture, witch burnings and the many instruments they designed and used for such things. These 'things' were done in the name of 'GOD' and/or Jesus.
If modern god-believers actually hold the position that Jews and Christians are the true holy humans on Earth due to their holy writings and their belief's that only they have 'salvation'...then we as atheists have taken the correct position in ridiculing them for all they believe.
I've yet to see any JEW ever bring up the detestable 'Chicken Swinging"....have you? It's never openly spoken of as animal abuse - which is exactly what it is? It's just another subject eliminated by such 'moral' people - be they Jews or Christians. When I bring it up, people simply don't know what to say. Go figure.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 16, 2012 at 2:04pm

OK, the first distinction I think I need to make is that there is a VAST difference between modern Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Humanistic and Reconstructionist Jews, and ultra-Orthodox Jews such as Lubavitcher, Satmar, Neturei Karta, and numberous other tiny groups.
It might be helpful to think of the ultra-Orthodox as similar to the extreme Evangelical Christian who claims to believe in and follow literally the exact words of the Bible (except that they don't). But even the ultra-Orthodox have changed over time, and they actually do try to follow the spirit rather than the letter of the law, but they DO engage in old folk-ceremonies (the kaparot is a folk ceremony, not a commandment), which many of the rest of us consider unnecessary and sometimes gruesome. Another example is that they are still trying to find the "perfect" red heifer, that is, one with not a single white hair, which is said to augur the construction of the third temple. I am deeply afraid if they ever find such a calf, because it would most likely result in violence between them and the Muslims over the site of the Dome of the Rock, which is where they would want to build the temple.
But remember that they represent only a tiny minority of Jews -- a MUCH smaller proportion than the Evangelicals represent in Christianity. The VAST majority of Jews in Israel and the rest of the world have probably never even heard of the kaparot ceremony (I hadn't until you mentioned it), and many Jews DON'T believe in that our writings are the literal word of god, but do read them to find out what the philosophical point of the story is, and how it might apply to our life today.
For me, the god part of it is meaningless, but viewing it as the stories and thoughts and philosophy of the ancient humans who wrote it down is fascinating. But even Jews who DO believe in god, and they are the majority, think of the writings in terms of how they apply to our life today, and not as a paean to ancient atrocities. The Talmud is an excellent example of how Jewish scholars around the time of Jesus engaged in quite complex debate over what the laws and traditions actually meant and how they should be interpreted. While believing in god, nevertheless, the main thrust of Judaism has ALWAYS been how to live a good and moral life in the legal sense, which means respecting the rights of your neighbors and doing your best not to harm your neighbor. Of course, many Jews throughout the centuries have failed to live up to this standard, but it is there, nevertheless.
It's interesting to observe modern Orthodox believers, because they follow many of the scriptural commandments, which are really irrelevant to the rest of the world, while not harming it, such as keeping kosher, keeping 2 sets of dishes, one for dairy and one for meat, not wearing clothes of mixed textiles (no woolsey-linsey), wearing cloth shoes on Yom Kippur, so as not to be seen as ostentatious on a day when everyone should be humble, married women practicing modesty, which while not as extreme as Muslim women, is still similar, etc. etc. etc.
There ARE problems with ultra-Orthodoxy in Israel, for example, when the men demand that women sit at the back of the bus, and secular Israelis (and there are a lot of them!) are fighting back about things like that.
About the idea of "salvation", that is a purely Christian idea. I never even knew what it was, until as an adult, I started to study Christianity from the viewpoint of religious anthropology. I'm STILL a religious anthropologist (as a hobby), and I'm currently studying YOU!! :-)
But, back to what I'm trying to say, I just wasn't raised with a lot of the concepts that Christians take as universal, and so I never had anything to discard. Tevye the Milkman believed in god, so he argued with him (classic Jewish 19th century book). But in my case, once I stopped believing, there was no longer anything to argue about. But I still like the moral concepts I was raised with, such as the responsibility, if you eat meat, to kill the animal in the most merciful manner possible. That is the real root of kosher -- mercy. In the olden days, the most merciful killing method was a quick slitting of the throat, in order to let the animal bleed out as quickly as possible. If there are better modern methods, I'm all for them, because it's not the historical practice of kosher that I hold, but the concept of mercy toward animals.
Another law I like is the one of leaving the corners of the fields for the poor during harvest time. Of course, that wouldn't work in modern times, but if I were a farmer, I would want to make a donation of a certain percentage of my harvest to feed the poor.
Of course, there are other parts of the writings that I abhor, such as the stoning of women who have been raped (Muslims are apparently still doing that), but I have the freedom to reject things like that as ancient customs, that, although they have been recorded historically, I am under no obligation to follow. The VAST majority of Jews feel the same way. Some parts of the Jewish writings are simply unacceptable in this modern era, and no one considers them the world of god that must be followed.
So I guess what I am saying is that I am very comfortable with the way I was raised, and really, the ONLY change that I made was to lose the belief in god. Same thing with my brother. I still believe I should be humble about the wrongs I have committed, and have an obligation to admit those wrongs and apologize and make good to those people I may have hurt in the past (concept of Yom Kippur), and that does not depend on any belief in god. I am happy to celebrate the New Year in my own time, and I am happy to celebrate the harvest, and the availability of food, and I am happy to celebrate the concept of religious freedom (the true concept of Hanukah), and I am happy to celebrate the New Year of the Trees (trees are IMPORTANT), and I am happy to keep the welfare of the poor in the front of my mind, and to practice as best as I can Tikkun Olam, which is the repair of the world (early concept of ecology), etc. I'm not worried about Heaven and Hell, because for me, they never existed, but I strongly believe in, and accept the obligation to live the best, kindest and most moral life I can here on earth. Seems to me that there are more similarities between modern Judaism and Humanism than differences, and while the vast majority of Jews ARE believers, we can be Jews without believing as well. (That's the tribal aspect).
I know I'm a kind of rambling writer, and so, forgive the scrambled nature of what I say, but I do want to address what you have written, if not completely. My brother calls me the most devout Jewish atheist he has ever met! :-) So please keep on talking! :-)
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 16, 2012 at 2:50pm

Natalie - Einbein - being born and raised in New york area attended Jewish schools and learned everything he knew from attending those synogages and those Rabbi's teaching him. Several were involved.
His problem was that those teachings - and you've referred to such above - are not practiced in real Jewish life. He saw throughout his life in dealing with family, business's, communities it was all a lie.
Then, he went to Israel to study, work and live - and saw more of the same things - only worse - from the standpoint of his new young wife's family, business. and community's he was involved in.
It matters not that there are many different Jewish sects. They all - every single one of them - exactly as Christians have their different sects - they all have special problems that we should know about. They should all be exposed one by one if possible. I give no latitude to any of them - for they are all corrupt - with each having their own cruelty and evil moral codes....and their backup? Religion. God.
I've brought to your attention the problem within one small Jewish sect about "The Kapparot Chicken Swinging Ritual".
That's not the only problem Natalie! The other problem is that you didn't know about such a thing going on all over this country (I have several places listed that hit the national news) and it's YOUR TRIBE! You claim it - not me. Animal cruelty within a sect of Judaism should be known by everyone - and you should be pissed that the rest of the Jewish community has not made this deplorable thing well known. In fact, they all should be ashamed that an atheist had to bring forth this news.
But - that's exactly the problem isn't it? Jews won't discuss the true nature within their culture - exactly like Christians. It takes an atheist like me to bring out all the foul (pun  intended) things going on within these 'sects'. They are complicit by their silence.
How come an atheist knows about these things and the people living within these very communities doesn't - or say they don't? How they bury their heads in the sand!
I'm happy you feel OK about the way your were raised. i am not happy being rasied within a religious community - not one tiny bit. It's pure child abuse - plain and simple.
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 16, 2012 at 4:43pm

"...I'm currently studying YOU!! :-)"
And, Natalie, I'm studying you, especially your capitalizing single words.
For instance, how many more than a vast majority are a VAST majority? I'll accept an approximation. :-)

 Permalink Reply by Alice on January 11, 2012 at 7:44pm

very interesting...
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 11, 2012 at 9:04pm

Hi Mac Rex,

Perhaps what makes a person adhere to their "Jewish" heritage, has more to do with the persecution that Jews have faced
Every human that has formed a group has faced persecution at some time and has persecuted others at some time. Regardless of whether or not humans purposely form a group or a group comes about naturally, that group will persecute others and be persecuted. It is the same for every group in human history.

...what makes a person adhere to their "Jewish" heritage...
This is so for all groups. What makes anyone adhere to any group? It's all in the brain, no where else. If humans form a group, be it in football, a religious group, an ethnic group, or political group, they are doing two things, they are collecting like-minded people together and rejecting those not of their mindset.
 



 Permalink Reply by Mac Rex on January 11, 2012 at 9:26pm

Um, I think that was what I was saying...
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 12, 2012 at 5:16am


Um, I think that was what I was saying..
oo, I was just putting it in a way that made no reference to any particular group.  It's a kind of practice.
 

 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 1:16pm

Actually, the Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews make up 50% of the Jewish population in Israel, and the Ashkenazis make up the other 50%. I think you got your 80% figure from the fact that Jews make up 80% of the TOTAL population of Israel, the rest being members of various Muslim subgroups, and a few Christians.
The reason your mitochondrial DNA is Germanic is because during the Roman Empire, a lot of Jewish men traveled throughout the Empire and Central and Eastern Europe as traders, and they usually didn't bring women with them. So being men, they found wives where they could. It seems apparent that these women converted to Judaism, since the culture and language and religion were preserved, but you almost certainly have Semitic genetics in your male line, and in your autosomal genes. Interestingly, MY mitochondrial DNA is Germanic, too (T2f1), but my brother's Y chromosomal DNA is R1a1, which is carried by 50% of Ashkenazic Levites, but occurs at 4% or less among Israelites (those Jews who are not of the priestly lineages, Cohen and Levite) and non-Jews in the same localities. That confirms my family tradition that my father's line was Levite. Cohens have an even stronger genetic proof of Semitic heritage, and the Cohen Modal Haplotype is found in ALL Jewish communities, presumably because the laws concerning Cohen marriage were a lot stricter than for non-Cohens. And interestingly enough, there is a tribe in Africa, called the Lemba, of whom one clan, the Buba, also have a high percentage of the CMH. They may also be descendants of ancient Jews who traveled and intermarried!
In other news, I had a genetic study done by 23andme, and I am VERY strongly genetically Ashkenazic. The genetic studies that have been done on Ashkenazic Jews definitely support a common ancestry, related to, but not all that similar to surrounding populations. They have actually been found to be genetically more closely related to Italians and Mediterranean peoples than to Central and East Europeans, probably because they moved freely around the Roman empire before they were nearly exterminated by the Romans. Which also accounts for the Ashkenazi bottleneck, but save that subject for another day.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 13, 2012 at 10:10pm

Wow!  I think it's facts like these that I appreciate reading the most!  I love to read about genetics, but I never got far enought to understand all the  different designations of the various parts of the genome.  Regardless of how historically correct the folk-tales of the Jewish folk are or aren't, if the information you offer here is correct, it at least DOES prove that the Jewish people kept close records of the family bloodlines.  
  About a year or so ago, I read an article in SEED magazine about genetic evidence that many of the so-called descendants of Confucius (who hold a kind of royal status in China) are not in fact related to one another (genetic testing reveals differing "Y" chromosomes), therefore they could not ALL descend from Confucius (if in fact any of them do).  Needless to say the "families of Confucius" reject the science behind the tests.
  Another religious group that has actually managed to help the further study of the human genome was the Oneida community of upstate New York (yes, the same Oneida family that makes the silverware).  Originally they attempted a kind of "eugenics" project of breeding only certain people with certain traits with one another and keeping detailed lists of family histories of each sexual partner.
  As scientists continue to study the human genome, populations with a far-reaching history who actually have some method of keeping records of genetic inheritance are treasured finds.   I think the human genome is fascinating and our various racial histories are really the story of one little unit of DNA in it's incredible journey for survival.  Thinking about "race" or "ethnicity" in that manner makes me appreciate our differences rather than condemn them.
 Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on January 12, 2012 at 1:57pm

Yeah, mostly I get defensive about being Jewish in the face of adversity. Adversity does bring people together.




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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 11, 2012 at 7:47pm

  When I try to understand something that I'm somewhat or entirley excluded from, due to choice or circumstance, I find that writing fiction is sometimes a good way to explore it.  I've never identified as Jewish, because I was never raised to do so. (Although I'm told that there is a family name of "Braunstein" on my mothers side, several genarations back).  I'm therefore unable to experience the world "through the eyes of a Jewish person", so I wrote this. Take it as you will.
 
                                                                   The Chosen One
 
  Rachel didn't exactly remember how many hours had passed since sunrise.  Her day had started in the dun darkness of night; that's when the mortars first hit.  Her Imah had screamed only once, her voice cut silent as the flash that lit the house was swallowed up just as fast by darkness.  She thought she might have heard it just before it hit.  She could almost remember a WHIR-mummmphh-WHIR-WHIR sound that got louder for a moment before the blast.  Or maybe that had been a dream from some other night-she really couldn't put it in place, now.
  Not that it mattered a whole lot now.  She looked down at the star-of-David in her palm.  It had been around her Abba's neck just hours ago.  He had sheltered her from the flying debris, right before the second one hit.  Outside, people were running past in the streets.  Men's voices mostly.
 "Get the women and children out", one had said.   A woman's voice warned aloud to any that could hear "They're striking from the west-move them away from the market-".
  Rachel didn't hear the rest.  Several more mortars exploded nearby.  Rachel and her abba had run out through the only door.  It opened out onto an alley.  That's how everybody's doors were.  This was why.
  The wind swept her hair into her eyes.  Nearby a couple of little boys played in the streets.  Today was Shavuot, and just from watching the two little boys play in the streets, nobody would think any differently.  Rachel envied children of that age their ignorance.  They seemed totally oblivious of terrible things happening right beside them.  She vaguely recalled such a day when she overheard a conversation between her older brother and an uncle.
   "Why did these people come from over the hills and do this?" her brother had asked their uncle Moishe once when she was about five. 
  " Because they hate us." Uncle Moishe had replied.
   "Why do they hate us, when we've never done anything to them?" came her brother's expected response.
   "Because we are the chosen people of the God of Abraham, nephew.  They will always hate us, so." their Uncle iterated in a tone that sounded to have been rehearsed for years.
  What had the God of Abraham "chosen" them for?  Rachel had a pretty good idea that whatever the answer to that question was, it involved more nights like last night.  She wasn't crying anymore.  That was over hours ago too.  She saw the shrapnel strike her father.  Saw him fall.  He didn't get back up.
  She had tried to move some of the rubble of what used to be her family home.  Her Imah was under there somewhere.  She already knew how useless that was.  Nobody ever came out from under a house once it fell.  She knew that from the shelling that occurred two years before.
  "...because we are the Jews..." her uncle's voice echoed in her brain.
  It didn't seem like all that good of an answer to her, though.  "We celebrate the wonder of the oil lasting for eight days..." she was told by another uncle, a rabbi, as her family lit the first candle on the menorah on a Hannukah that seemed like ages ago.
   "...because we are the Jews..."
  And again when she was lifted from in front of a counter in a delicatessan, by her abba as he laughed and said in soft tones in her ear,
 "No darling we don't eat that."
"Why not?"
"Because we are Jews...maideleh,"he replied his eyes lighting up with the little smile he always saved just for her.
   She winced in pain as she realized that she was squeezing her hand too tight and the points of her abba's star of David had bitten into her palm leaving little tooth-like marks. Her eyes squinted as she examined it closely.   Her dirty tear streaked face looked far older than her years.  What did it mean to be a Jew?  That you didn't eat alot of things that other people ate all the time? That you lit candles to celebrate oil lamps? That you worshipped a god that marked you for death? That everybody else in the world hated you because you danced and sang in the streets on certain days?  Who could hate anyone for singing and dancing?
  Her mother had told her she would be old enough to understand soon.  But then adults tell you lots of things when you're eight.
                                                                      THE END
  Maybe "Jewishness" is just as hard for many Jews to understand, at least in certain circumstances.
 
  
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 2:00pm

The very minute the words spoken, "We are chosen as special by God'....you just knew there was going to be trouble. Most humans don't like such vile statements, "I'm better than you are".
Jews started this evil trouble...and in Israel today - they still foster this same ideology. They are 'chosen' and you are certainly not.
People - being how they are - were desperate to become a member ot the special and holy 'chosen' of God club. They tried many times in various ways - finally the time was right - a person named Jesus came along at the right time and place - and BINGO - JACKPOT - it took some time, but now these people (Christians) actually believe they have now become the only ones truly 'chosen' and even are so ignorant they believe those JEWS will convert in 'the last days.'
That was not enough of course for those Arabs, descended from Abraham from his first-born - and so this group concocted another scenero - and now we have Islam.
When will this madness end?
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 13, 2012 at 6:54pm

OK, here's one of the myths in person. In the writings, and in the oral culture, the words "Chosen People" ONLY means that the Jews were chosen to receive the Torah from god. It has NO connotation of superiority, and is often used to express regret, like "Why couldn't you have chosen someone ELSE to suffer?" The tale is that god approached a number of tribes with the Torah, but only the Jews accepted. Of course it's a myth, a cultural folk tale, but has been used to scorn and mistreat Jews for millennia by people who have no clue what it really means.
 Permalink Reply by leveni on January 17, 2012 at 12:47am

Hi Natalie,

The tale is that god approached a number of tribes with the Torah, but only the Jews accepted.
According to the Tanakh:

Deuteronomy 14:2, "For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth."
And in Hebrew:

ב  כִּי עַם קָדוֹשׁ אַתָּה, לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ; וּבְךָ בָּחַר יְהוָה, לִהְיוֹת לוֹ לְעַם סְגֻלָּה, מִכֹּל הָעַמִּים, אֲשֶׁר עַל-פְּנֵי הָאֲדָמָה.  {ס}



 Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on January 13, 2012 at 11:08pm

There is absolutely no possibility of another prophet coming here and therefore this madness may end sooner than we think.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 14, 2012 at 1:56pm

Oh Reaally?!  And just why couldn't there be another prophet?  The Christians are supposed to believe that J.C. was the be-all-end-all messiah, then Tim Tebow came along.  Now look whose memory is being neglected in favor of the newcomer.
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 14, 2012 at 3:39pm

Madhukar, don't hold your breath until the madness ends.
As art is in the eye of the beholder, prophet-ness is in the head of the gullible.
When a group of people regard someone as a prophet, for them he/she is a prophet.

 Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on January 15, 2012 at 8:42am

I agree with both of you but my optimism stems from the fact that the world is slowly but surely becoming less faithful. Forget the Americans and the Muslims for the present, but what I say is true of most of the other world. America is the last flicker of the religion before it dies. Islam will actually cause the death of all religions. We will not be able to see this, but it will happen.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 13, 2012 at 6:51pm

Very poetically written story, but I don't quite get the point.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 13, 2012 at 8:46pm

As the number of replies on this thread are becoming very compounded and thus confusing to follow, I assume that you are referring to the story I wrote a couple of days ago.  There isn't really a point to it, other than the fact that we are all born into cultures that we really don't choose.  As we grow older it becomes our struggle to understand why many parts of it are supposed to be so significant. What does it mean to be "x"?    
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 8:13pm

Oh, OK, thanks. Now that you've explained it, I DO understand. And you're right -- we don't choose the cultures we are born into, but they DO become a part of us, even for those people who don't even recognize that they are part of a culture. When I was in college, I often heard the argument that Americans didn't have a culture (because, historically, they came from many different places and cultures, I guess), but it seems abundantly clear to me, and apparently to the rest of the world, that there is a very distinct American culture. Not everyone likes it, but it's there!
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 14, 2012 at 8:52pm

Absolutely!  We often can't see things that we're a part of.  I've had the argument before with folks who've made the comment about Americans not having a culture-we absolutely DO! Other cultures can definitely spot Americans for that reason.
 An easy litmus test for whether or not someone has a culture (which is an easy task, because we all do) is to ask them if there is any act which they think is weird or wrong.  The answer that they give will always be a culturally based one, as norms of behavior stem ultimately from culture.
  It is fascinating to observe the effect that cultural "lensing" has on a person's perceptions.  An act can be either insignificant, or punishable by death, depending on the prevailing worldview.  Culture reminds us what a gift it is to be able to perceive, to conceptualize of a family unit, to celebrate or to grieve, to have a language and to wonder what lies beyond our shores. I've done myself such an injustice to have treated it like such a small thing for so long.
  Our culture is our perception.  We see, think and act through it.  We cannot do otherwise.







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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
Back to Hang With Friends Discussions
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 15, 2012 at 7:06am

According to the US Supreme Court in a WW2-era case (before Congress added two infamous words), reciting the Pledge of Allegiance brings schoolchildren into the political culture.
According to the professor in a cultural anthropology course I took after I retired, when we die we leave the culture.

 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 15, 2012 at 10:59am

Natalie - // There is a very distinct American culture //
Ok I can think of two (2) that come to mind but I'm sure you have additional ones I'd like you to list out.
1. American 'culture' seems 'entitled'. People here think everyone else should do the work and they should reap the profits. People from other countries come to America and are terribly thankful for the opportunities (well...they used to)......American born people seem to think it's automatic - and they are entitled.
2. American's being overwhelmingly Christian - act holier-than-thou. They seem to think that being an American means they are God's chosen now - and not anyone else. It's just that holy and chosen attitude that I've been seeing for decades.
 Permalink Reply by Paula T. on January 11, 2012 at 10:14pm

Without reading the other posts, I can honestly say that I was - and still am - ignorant about Jewish history.  I was raised Roman Catholic and attended parochial school for 12 years.  I never learned about any other religions while in school - they didn't want the competitions, I guess.  Honestly, I was in mid to late grade school before really hearing about Judaism and unfortunately, only heard the negative stereotypes (my dad raised us to be racist bigots...thankfully, my sisters and I were able to eventually think for ourselves and realize dad was full of shit). 
So, you are right, Natalie, that I am ignorant  of Judaism, Jewishness, and Israel.  I certainly don't wish to stay ignorant.  That's why I was glad to see the post stating you were going to create this post.  I'm looking forward to educating myself about your heritage. 
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 12, 2012 at 1:48am

That is the most complex writing I've seen since I studied differential equations.
Obvious or simplistic? No danger of that.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 1:41pm

Hi, Kalikiano! At least I understand the aloha i ka pono part (even if I didn't quote it properly!)
You wrote quite a dissertation, and your knowledge of formal philosophy is FAR beyond mine. My reason for starting the thread was to clear up misconceptions which I found far too common in other threads I read.
My own interest in clarifying Judaism is NOT to convert anyone (heavens no!!) but to share my cultural knowledge with people who have often been taught a very distorted and truncated view of it. I get tired of people quoting ancient biblical writings, and then accusing modern Jews of following that long outmoded view of the world. I get even more tired of people presenting Christian lies about the Jews as if they were true. So I guess that shows.
It's like if people were yelling about native Hawai'ians throwing virgins into the volcano to appease Pele, when first of all, they aren't doing that any more (if they ever did), and second, the Hawai'ian culture is far richer and more complex than that. You don't have to believe in the myths to enjoy learning about them, and you can certainly find and apply the pearls of wisdom that are definitely there.
So I don't know a term to apply to what I do. I study culture as a hobby, and for many if not most native cultures, a certain set of beliefs and a world-view is simply part of that culture, not separate as in Christianity. If I could impart one concept to the majority of those who were raised in Christian cultural/religious separatism, that would be it.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 2:13pm

Dang, Kalikiano!  You know, if we really WANTED to read the entire Old Testament, we would all just convert.  I've gotta give you credit, though-it certainly IS a thorough and well thought out reply.
 Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on January 12, 2012 at 2:39am

Natalie,
In one of my discussion posts, "Christianity- a brief history", which you have seen, I have described two savage mobs, practising brutality in the name of religion. Both of them belonged to the same region and for both of them the target for proselytisation were mainly Jews. Therefore, while they fought each other for dominance over a geographical region, they persecuted those Jews who did not accept their religions. The people were brutal, those were the days of savagery and the Jews suffered utmost form that savegery. The seeds of anti-semitism that were planted in those time culminated in to the holocaust. This is the history of the past. I think that the past has not been totally undone even now.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 13, 2012 at 7:05pm

Madhukar, you are right, but history cannot be undone, whether ancient or recent. That is my reason for my position that the only rational action we can take about ANY problem is to find the solutions that will hurt the fewest and help the most.
 Permalink Reply by Plinius on January 12, 2012 at 3:09am

I admit my ignorance and misinformation.
During WWII many Jews were taken to the deathcamps and few people tried to help them - it gave rise to an uncomfortable feeling in this country. Lots of people are parading their Anne Frank-admiration, but I think that´s just to cover up guilty feelings. The fundies in this country love Israel, and they never miss an opportunity to state that Israel cannot do wrong because Jews are god´s own people, and of course it´s allright to murder Palestinians because they are not god´s people. Jews in this country divide in two groups: one is agressive-defensive (Watch out, I´m a Jew and I´ll get you when you discriminate against me!), the other group consists of people who behave normal, keep their own culture but don´t push it at you. You can see from this that it´s easy to get disgusted and misinformed. It taught me not to talk about ethnic groups but to meet people one by one and just estimate their behaviour.
I notice in your post : ´Because we are an ethnic group that jus´
Are you so connected to your ethnic group that you talk about we? Why? Including yourself in a group often means that you exclude other groups - is that also true for you? Don´t think that I want to attack you or other people. I´ll happily try out your recipes and listen to your own world-view.
 
 
 
 Permalink Reply by Madhukar Kulkarni on January 12, 2012 at 8:09am

Chris Breman
I do not know the motives of fundies in your country but as a third party observing form a distance, I have independent views and they may not be wrong even if they are not far from the fundies.
The Jewish country is surrounded by 11 nations that do not even willingly acccept the right of Jewish people for a homeland that has been deprived to them for over 2000 years. This possibly created a overly agressive psyche among the Israelis and it is quite possible that they are overacting because of this. Offence, to them, has become the best defence.  The situation in the middle east keeps on changing and it is difficult to find any solution without a party having equal interests and equal weight with all concerned.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 3:24pm

You make an important point. Plus the overly aggressive stance is compounded by the long history of bloody oppression by Christians in Europe and Muslims in the Middle East, only culminating in the still very present trauma of the Holocaust. It is no accident that a common slogan is "Never again!" Or what a dear friend of mine said her grandfather told her: "Don't ever forget you are a Jew, because the rest of the world won't!"
I have trouble understanding the smug condescension and outright hostility of some atheists toward a community that has suffered millennia-long bloodshed and oppression, when atheists themselves are the target of bigotry and hatred.

 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 8:37pm

I am talking about the Jewish community just like one would talk about any community. Armenians, Hutus, Tutsi, Moors, etc. are all communities, aren't they? Again, to speak only of those about whom I actually know something, there is a VERY clear sense of community among Armenians in the US, even though they were born here, usually of grandparents and great-grandparents who fled the Turkish genocide. Asian Americans have a sense of community; gays have a sense of community -- why shouldn't Jews?
And I do NOT say "so what?" about other peoples' narratives. The Armenians pass on the story of their genocide to their children, and the Japanese-Americans retain the memory of the detention camps -- that is their right as a people and a community. Don't Jews have the same right?
Your so-called "joke" about Orthodox Jews dressing like Abraham Lincoln (I already explained your mistake), is merely tasteless, but you have the right to be tasteless if you wish. Pardon me if I don't laugh.
And no, I don't want you to say the Jewish religion is great, or that a part of Jewish writing (the term "Old Testament" is an insulting misnomer) is sublime -- that's not what this discussion is about. I don't dispute your right to disagree with the actions of the Israeli government, either. I never asked for a pity party, nor do I myself countenance wrongs that have been perpetrated by individual Jews.
All I started this discussion for was to counteract the obvious anti-Semitism and ignorance about what Judaism and Jewishness are on this website in general. I was disturbed by the mis- and dis- and lack of information (I won't call them lies, because I give the authors of the statements the benefit of the doubt) about the history of Judaism, and the state of the modern Jewish community in many threads I had started reading. I came to AN expecting rational and interesting and civil discussions, and was upset to see the amount of ignorant ranting that goes on. I would expect to find that on a fundie site, but was blind-sided to find it here. That's all.



                

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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 15, 2012 at 12:36am

Natalie - I think one of our men posted it correctly. You claim the jewish community as your own - thus separating yourself into US vs. THEM.
Christians do exactly the same thing - because as an atheist through and through - I see Judaism as a 'religion' and you continue to see it as a special group of people and compare it to 'Armenians' etc.
My geneology goes back to Italy. I do NOT claim them. They have been total and complete asswipes throughout history - from Roman times up through Mussolini and the 2nd World War, to currently disgracing themselves with the Amanda Knox murder trial to yesterday's S & P downgrading of their credit.
Now, personally, I still like the beautiful women - but that happens everywhere. It's not because their Italian or anything else......they're beautiful (until they flash that crucifix or open their mouth about how much they love that Jesus character.
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 15, 2012 at 6:43am

Steven, Italians have given the world great art, architecture, law, music, philosophy, science...and pasta.
Total and complete asswipes...from Roman times up though S&P's actions?
Your emotions rule.

 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 15, 2012 at 10:43am

Tom - Everything you've listed was done with God and without religion. Perhaps I should have been even more specific so here is one to add to the list - and it's emotional because it's evil.
Roman's wrote the rule book on how to treat slaves - written around 200BCE - and Christians picked up on this and continued this evil.
Everything else you've mentioned is fine - but lets not overlook what their history reveals about their 'culture'. If you decide you'd like to be a part of that culture - go for it - but not me. I don't align myself with any culture that has such an evil history. If that puts me alone - that's fine with me.
I have the name somewhere of the person that wrote this Roman rules for slaves - and it's not a pretty picture. The very fact that America has been built on such an evil thing is cause for concern. The bigotry and hatred goes forth even today - with prime targets homosexuals and atheists (expecially atheists).
That's not emotional - it's a fact.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 15, 2012 at 12:03pm

Steven, you ignore the widespread and VERY intentional secular movement of the Renaissance. Why else are there paintings like the Venus de Milo, and the thousands of Italian madrigals based on mythical themes? While it is true that the myths, were, in their own time, religious, that was NOT the intention of the poets and composers who created them. The glory of the Italian Renaissance was so admired that it spread across all of Western Europe, and created a distinct development of culture, and was NOT religious in nature, nor was it supported by the church, for the most part (of course, the church still WAS active in patronage of the arts, but if you had studied the sexy nature of the madrigals, as I have, you would know that the church COULDN'T have supported them!)
It is your choice to reject your Italian heritage, but I revel in the Renaissance -- can't get enough of the music! :-)
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 20, 2012 at 7:53pm

Jews are hated because everyone Christian is taught the Old Testament - and being the truthful Word of God - all those genoicdes etc. well - payback has been an ongoing bitch hasn't it? Muslims are taught the same thing.
Atheists are discriminated against with smugness from god-believers. Will the hateful and horrific actions of god-believers ever end?
With Jews spreading the word they are a special and specific 'peoples' (not just a religion) with their very own godly DNA -  they continue to separate themselves from 'others'.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 12, 2012 at 1:52pm

A couple of responses: long before I stopped believing in god, I made the conscious decision that I was not going to be restricted to a Jewish-only community, because the rest of the world was just too interesting and there was too much beauty out there for me to miss out on it. I have traveled extensively all over the world and enjoyed it immensely, by immersing myself in the local culture (more interested in art and music and dance and food, and architecture and religion than sightseeing). But if I have the right to appreciate other cultures, I equally have the right to appreciate my own.
Second, it's NEVER all right to murder Palestinians or anyone else. But it's never all right for suicide bombers to murder Jews, either. I fully understand and appreciate and sympathize with the Palestinian narrative, but there is a Jewish narrative too, and I refuse to be one-sided about it.  I refuse to over-simplify, as I see so many very vocal people doing. I am perfectly comfortable with, and often agree with people who specifically criticize an action of Israel's government, but don't see much criticism of Palestinian governmental mistakes or misdeeds. In my view, it's very much a 2-way street, and that implies the necessity of dialogue and compromise and cooperation, not yelling over who killed who and how much we would like to change history (an endless trap if I ever heard one!). I very much want to see POSITIVE change, not just continued violence from people who demand EVERYTHING. On either side. I hope that makes sense.
 Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on January 12, 2012 at 2:02pm

Yes it is a 2 way street, and not enough people can think past whatever side they've chosen.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 5:41pm

We don't attack (currently) the Palestinian side because this thread is about Judaism. When one wants to start a thread discussion about those Muslim Palestinian's...I'll be happy as I'm certain everyone else will also - to weigh in on the atrocities committed in the name of that asswipe Mohammed/Allah.
I'm an equal opportunity god-believing dissant. You tell the story or name the GAWD - and I'm pleased as punch to contribute to another fairy tale and be just as nasty and blashpemous as possible.
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 13, 2012 at 12:31pm

"...it's very much a 2-way street...."
An American-born, non-practicing Jew I worked with one day gave me his take on Middle Eastern conflict. He lamented the toll on the Israeli side.
Telling him the English civil wars stopped when the parties realized that killing each other wasn't getting them what they wanted, I added that the people of the Middle East are entitled to their civil wars. They too will someday realize they have an alternative.
I've been in a war and I've done mediation; I know that for as long as people want to kill, they will do so.

 Permalink Reply by Prog Rock Girl on January 12, 2012 at 2:01pm

Fundies are fair-weather friends to the Jews. They're like the kids that made fun of you and then suddenly wanted to come to your house because you have a swimming pool. I've met a few of them and at least I know they won't give me shit, but I also don't trust them, and find them patronizing (esp the ones who try to get me saved).
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 13, 2012 at 7:11pm

Yes, I AM connected to my ethnic group. So are many of the world's people, including the people of the United States, who have formed an ethnic group called Americans.
However, enjoying one's own ethnic group absolutely does NOT mean excluding, hating or feeling superior to other people. When I was in my late teens, I made the conscious decision that I would not spend my life facing inward toward the Jewish community, but that I would face outward, toward the world, and enjoy its varied communities and ethnic groups. I have traveled all over the world, listened to lots of music, eaten lots of foods, danced lots of dances, stood in awe of lots of works of art, listened to people's beliefs and stories, and cultural worldviews, and while I don't agree with everything other people believe, my purpose has always been to learn, not to judge. I speak 7 languages at least at a minimum communicational level -- not well enough to translate or get complicated, but it communicates to people that I care enough about them to learn something of them. If I can respect and enjoy other peoples' cultures, why can't they respect and enjoy mine?
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 1:49pm

  Stephen Campagna:  I don't know that it is fair to hang one's entire opinion of the entire Israeli populace on one man's book.  Every culture and country has it's snobs and racial purists-and their exclusionary tactics  range from the humorously obnoxious (i.e. the French-or so I hear) to the horrific (in India, many neighborhoods do not allow it's denizens to marry folks from other neighborhoods, literally on pain of death).  I haven't lived in Isreal either (who knew?), but somehow I'm sure there are at least two nice and non-hostile Jewish people living over there (except, I hear that there once was a town called Sodom, where there weren't ANY good people, but someone took care of that town and they aren't a problem anymore).
  Rather than stoking the furnace of hostility by stating with certainty that this Einben fellow is the be-all- end-all source on all things Jewish, why not take Natalie's word for it that SHE went over there and had a good time-and met some nice folks.  Culture-centric hostility like the kind you mention should be examined on another thread, perhaps.  I'm not Jewish or an expert on Jews, so I just came to this discussion to discuss with folks who have direct knowledge of a culture.
I have found that when you don't know for certain, that it's best to do the asking-not the telling.  I've been wrong a lot on the subject of Jewish culture-but that's okay, when I'm wrong seems to be when I learn the most. All things good!

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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 5:49pm

Patrick - my name is spelled Steven (lol)..........
Mr. Einbein just didn't go to Israel to visit and meet some 'nice' people. He went there to please his parents and community here in America to LIVE and marry a really nice (haw) Jewish girl.
Before you can possibly understand what this man is telling the public, I suggest you read his book. That's the only way to have an intelligent discussion about what he knows is certain. I was fortunate enough for him to stumble across a few of my postings and he offered to send me a signed copy for reading. How about that!
He's not the only person I've had the wonderful fortune to get their blood boiling enough to send me some books.
My Christian missionary F/B friend of two years now sent me a book titled: "The Heavenly Man"....the story of 'Brother Yun' who is responsible for spreading Christianity throughout China. It's just another chapter to add to my knowledge of what goes on all around us. lol
All this is just way to much fun.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 13, 2012 at 7:18am

Sorry about the misspelling, Steven.  And I'm also sorry for those Chinese being so heavily "mission-ised".  I know that here in the south, Asians are a favorite target of missionary churches, and a recent post on Richard Dawkins website revealed a scam in which children from China are being proselytized through Christian universities and their families are paying through the nose for "flat-earth"educations  (that's my own phrase for xtian teaching in public/private schools) for example: "Jenny is doing exceptionally well in science, but Johnny goes to a "flat-Earth" school."
  I'll definitely read the book you mentioned, as liberation from religion and it's sharp and pointy talons is still one of the high points of my existence.  Like I have said previously, I'm ignorant of Jewish culture inside and out-and I've never been to Isreal, so I can't exactly judge from the standpoint of direct knowledge.  And I'm sure that you're right about there being a difference between living there and visiting.
  My real question at this point is: Does it really differ so much from anywhere else, when it comes to "established cultures" looking their noses down on "implants" and ex-patriots?  And how many cultures of Jews are there? In Isreal?  In the world at large?  It's hard to believe that a group of folks who number less than 15 million worldwide could have that much variation.  Is the whole of Isreal one big marketplace of different Judaisms?  Oy!  
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 13, 2012 at 11:29am

If they're still sending her their newsletter, then they're asking her for money! (I guess there really is ONE universal truth agreed on by all religions).  I hope she isn't sending them any, because they can be relentless.
  It saddens me to see Asians (the one people who are truly good at math) fall to such a sham.  When I was in Honolulu, I noticed that the Mormon church owns damn near everything there.  It makes me think of the phrase "the rape of paradise"-which is usually applied to the Christianization/Europization of the West Indies. Sad.
  The important thing, naturally, is that her faith doesn't interfere with your relationship with her.   Conversation is a vitally important part of living together and hell-only-knows my last lover who was a southern Baptist was insufferable in his condescension.  I'll never try a relationship like that again. But it was definitely a learning experience.
  It's good to go off topic, when you've got something to say spit it out.  I like having a break from the prevailing flow of thought.  Besides, the concept that religion effects us all regardless of whether or not we ourselves actually practice it IS one of the underlying ideas here.
   
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 15, 2012 at 12:40pm

Patrick, to answer your question about subcultures of Jews, of course they exist. How could they not, considering the world-wide dispersion of the Jewish people at the time of the Roman conquest? The differences run from the ultra-Orthodox, who are fossilized in 18th century Poland, to the Jewish community of Kaifeng, China, which, encountering no particular discrimination, has totally assimilated into the Chinese, and we only know about it from historical records, and a few photographs from around 1900 which show the last Jews of China.
Israel has taken in Jews from all over the world, with the emphasis being on persecuted communities, and the decisions on whether to admit people are made by Orthodox rabbis, who, unfortunately wield disproportionate power in a parliamentary governmental system. Thus many decisions made by the Israeli government do not necessarily reflect the real views of the majority.
But examples of people who have come to Israel are Yemenites, Ethiopians, New World Conversos (descendants of Jews expelled from Spain in 1492 who managed to get certificates of "clean blood" in order to emigrate to Mexico, and from there to Colorado and New Mexico), Bene Israel from India, and of course, Jews from all Arab, Mediterranean, European and New World countries. Each group has brought its own customs, and foods and language, and a pressing need for the Israeli government has been Hebrew education.
It seems obvious to me, but let me point out, that these people wouldn't have come if they had felt comfortable in their countries of origin. While there ARE, of course, American Jews who have emigrated, the percentage is very small, because American Jews ARE very comfortable here and the vast majority of Jews here identify strongly as American, because it HAS been a relatively safe place to live, as opposed to the situation in most other countries in the world.
Religiously, Israeli Jews vary from the ultra-Orthodox, who tend to have a strangle-hold on much of Israeli policy, because their small, but significant numbers are often just what one party or the other needs to attain a majority in the Knesset (parliament), to liberal Jews, whose practice and beliefs are more in line with the American Reform Movement, to "cultural" Jews who speak the language, know the history, but don't really practice except that they celebrate the holidays just like "cultural" Christians here who celebrate Christmas but don't really think much about religion and don't much follow the Toraitic laws, to atheists who share much in common with atheists anywhere.
It's harder to be a "cultural" Jew or an atheist in Israel, because of the afore-mentioned stranglehold of the Orthodox rabbis -- Israel was NOT set up to be a secular democracy. In that way, Israel is identical to its Arab neighbors, who are ALSO not inclined to allow for secular, democratic government. The Middle-Eastern culture, and ethos, in which traditional Jews tend to be far more similar to their Arab cousins than to their European neighbors (family reference intentional), very much values religious law, and it's pretty much unthinkable for either group to envision a secular society. That's very much a European, enlightenment-era idea, and the US has probably taken it further than any other country on earth, although some European countries are moving in that direction.
If Israel had remained mostly Ashkenazic, and true to the values of the original pioneers, Israel might have evolved into a secular society, but the influx of Arab Jewish populations (who now make up about 50% of the Israeli Jewish population) made that pretty much impossible, because those who had lived in Arab lands, contrary to Arab myth, have a MUCH more negative view of the people they had lived among. After 1948, Jews living in Arab lands couldn't get out of there fast enough. When I was in Israel in 1965, I lived in a youth village composed almost entirely of Arab-Jewish teenagers whose families had sent them to Israel even though they couldn't come themselves, usually for financial reasons. But they wanted freedom and safety for their children. Arab Muslims weren't the only people affected by the establishment of Israel, although in an opposite way -- Arab Jews were overjoyed for the chance to live without oppression, whereas Arab Muslims either had the land sold out from under them by absentee landlords, or fled the war.
To address you question about "looking down their noses" at implants -- Jewish law says that the convert is to be treated exactly as the native born. But you can't change human nature -- there are those who distrust the motives of converts, and do not accept them, and there are those who accept them freely. You can't make any generalizations.
I hope you understand from my discussion that I am not in favor of Orthodox rule and discrimination, and that I am just as appalled by Jewish abuse of Arab human rights as any other conscientious humanist would be, but I'm trying to impart a view of the situation and the history from the Jewish viewpoint, and hoping that you realize that it is varied, and that there is much disagreement.
Oh, yeah, and your last phrase: Israel is a "marketplace" of NOTHING religiously -- a Jew is born a Jew, and there is a real and strong antipathy to conversion -- not looking down our noses, but just feeling that a person needs to be a part of his own community, and find his own way, and really doesn't need to be a member of our tribe unless he's determined, and crazy. That's the same philosophy I personally apply to my dearly beloved gay nephew -- I WANT him to find his place in the gay community, because that's who he is, he was born that way, and I would come out fighting like a tiger if anyone tried to "convert" him!

 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 8:45pm

Steven, perhaps Mr. Einbein came from an ultra-Orthodox community? And went to a similar one in Israel? That is the only way I can think of for his story as represented by you to have any resemblance to reality. And it is definitely NOT representative of the VAST majority of Israelis, American Jews, or Jews of any other country.

 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 14, 2012 at 11:44pm

Natalie - Perhaps this - Perhaps that - and yet you perhaps don't know the very society you say you know.
Read his book - get the facts of his story - then you can speak intelligently about it.
Some might say you don't get an accurate 'take' on Christianity by being a Catholic. Yet, knowing that story - and then investigating other Christian sects - you see the same horrific and unjustified freakin nut-jobber attitude regarding their 'take' on whom they are and whom they think 'others' are. A different route - same destination. I've found this to also be true with Muslim's - and yes, with the Jewish community.
Just because they don't all do it exactly the same way - the end is the same. They are chosen of God - and I'm certainly not. They don't need to swing chickens and be cruel to animals to act holier-than-thou - claiming they are a special genetic culture - obviously better than I for certain - it's US vs. THEM...and obviously I feel like I'm one of 'them' - not a part of that 'culture' either by unbelief or as you've so clearly stated - by my very DNA. Go figure.
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 2:07pm

Only when we, the chosen children of the great anti-god "Atheos" are delivered from all the evil believers in ridiculous myths.  Why can't they all just see...?
 Permalink Reply by Alice on January 12, 2012 at 5:45pm

I'm curious about the history of Israel who was involved in the decision making process around establishing a promised land.  I've heard that it was England who created the problem.  But after the holocaust there was a need for Jewish people to have a safe haven.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 12, 2012 at 5:53pm

FOOD - Ok some few people hae commented on Jewish culture and FOOD.
Here is another Jewish FOOD source maybe someone would like to comment about: I'll give you the 'title' and you comment. If no one (Natalie?) knows anything about it - I'll finish it.
"THE KAPPAROT CHICKEN-SWINGING RITUAL"
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 12, 2012 at 7:30pm

   Food?!  Did someone say food?!!
   Hey wait that's not a food tradition-that's one of those whacko animal sacrifice things! Eeeewww! Gory!
   Have you ever checked out how they geld a reindeer in Scandinavia or Norway-a woman literally bites the testicles off (it's also great for ensuring a good harvest and human fertility as well).   Somehow I don't think the reindeer would agree.  And despite the story Death in the Afternoon, I still don't buy it that bullfights are such a beautiful and noble thing.
  Yes it IS a big deal that people do horrible things to animals.  Many people speak out against such rituals.  Diana joined in a protest against fox-hunts much to BPC's and QE2's chagrin. And many Jews speak out against animal cruelty.
   Yes and I also disapprove of all animal sacrifice (the scapegoat, for example-another Jewish tradition) or the sacrifice of chickens, goats, turtles and doves by pratitioners of Santeria-even though they also try the whole "but later we eat it for food" excuse, face it-it is just a cruel act based on superstition (and I'm not sure that most of the practitioners of either belief system really believe for a moment that anything magical or holy happens when these acts are performed).
  Why can't we just shave our balls if we want to enact some ritual for good fortune-the real act of trust would be letting someone ELSE shave our balls-then we would truly feel like we were risking something-and while a successful "nut cut" wouldn't necessarily make fertility a certainty, an unsuccessful attempt could damn sure ensure the opposite.  Just a thought.
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 14, 2012 at 8:52pm

OK, that is a primitive ceremony practiced by ultra-Orthodox Jews on Yom Kippur. All of your sins are said to be transferred to the chicken, and it is swung over the head 3 times while reciting a prayer, and then slaughtered and donated to the poor. There is more to it, but you can read the Wikipedia article yourself. And they spell it Kaparot, but you can spell Hebrew and Yiddish any way you want to.
Of course, this is a primitive, fossilized folk-rite -- no stranger than the ritual cannibalism of the Catholic Church, or of Hindus sacrificing a goat to Kali, or lots of other customs I don't even know about. Again, modern Jews of the non-ultra-Orthodox variety don't do this. You can compare the ultra-Orthodox to the Amish -- both groups are frozen in the past, and do things we would never consider. But don't hold the acts of this fossilized group against the Jewish community in general.
 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 14, 2012 at 11:34pm

Natalie - You stated // don't hold the acts of this fossilized group against the Jewish community in general //
I don't hold every Christian sect responsible for what Catholic's do like 'exorcisim'. I don't need to because every Christian sect has their very own asswipe godly and dispickable rituals and rites.
The Kapparot Chicken Swinging Ritual is strictly 'religious'...and it's pure animal curelty. The very fact that other 'JEWS' don't step in and STOP this horrific (for the chickens) religious ritual - always in the name of GOD isn't it? No one can justify and stand by as this is done - unless they believe in some frickin God.
In the days leading up to this 'Jewish ritual' the chickens are treated poorly. The birds are crammed into crates, where they are typically kept in their own excrement, without food, water or shelter, for up to six days before the "SHULG KAPAROS" (swinging of the chickens) is performed on the eve of Yom Kippur. Animal cruelty indeed.
In 2005 and 2006 ASPCA in NYC confiscated hundreds of starving chickens abandoned in crates in a garage and a parking lot when the 'ceremony' was over. An ASPCA members interviewed said 'the chickens are brought to the slaughter in cramped cages without water in the broiling sun and half of them die on the way.'
While women and little children 'dance in the streets'.....these pitiful birds are swung around the 'practitioner's' head. Then the vocal chords are slit so the chicken cannot scream in pain, the writing birds are thrown into a plastic trash bag while still walking around looking for a way out of the bag with the head clinging to a cut throat.
The ceremony asks for a good life - while these Jews are taking the life of another creature.
I'm glad these are not 'my people' - - I reject them exactly as I've rejected Christians of all sects because each one has disgusting 'rituals' in the name of their GOD - and I will not be connected in any way to such a people.
It's good you started this thead - so that others may know 'of what they do' in the name of God. Oh don't worry - I'm certain the other Jewish 'sects' that are approved of by many - their true colors will hopefully also be shown - so that we may all see what they do in the name of God.
We've been picking on Christians for a very long time - not long enough for me - and they deserve every single second of our wrath - with a LOT more to come - but it's good to show some colors of the Jewish religion isn't it? Islam is also on my radar.

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Judaism, Jewishness and everything you were never taught in school about it.
Posted by Natalie A Sera on January 11, 2012 at 12:53pm in Hang With Friends
Back to Hang With Friends Discussions
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I've been hanging around for a while, and the amount of ignorance and misinformation abounding around Judaism, Jewishness (not the same thing), and Israel just astounds me.
Because we are an ethnic group that just happens to have a religion attached to it (much like the Japanese) it is entirely possible to be a Jewish atheist -- and I don't think I'm the only one here, although it seems to me that others may be unwilling to come out, because of the rampant hostility that I have seen expressed against us.
I think that this hostility comes from ex-Christians truly not understanding the difference between the definition of a Christian and a Jew, much less the profound cultural differences that exist. Americans in general, which mostly means Christians, haven't a clue about Jewish history, nor approaches to philosophy, nor how we have evolved, nor our world-view.
So I have a lot of topics in my head to write about -- but I'm also VERY interested in genuine questioning, just so some of you can understand before you attack.






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 Permalink Reply by Alice on January 12, 2012 at 7:47pm

Here is a conversation between Dawkins and a Jewish Rabbi who runs a Synagogue that doesn't believe in a God:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vpD-9C0JNA&feature=digest_thu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqqoViVXf-c&feature=digest_thu
 Permalink Reply by Patrick Moore on January 14, 2012 at 11:57pm

  Natalie-  Earlier on you stated that when you were younger you decided to turn your eyes not inward to Judaism, but rather outward toward the world.  I apologize if I am misquoting you.   What particular lines did you draw between your own point of view and that of your cultural point of view (besides, specifically, religion)?  Were there some really big issues, or did you just feel too limited in your choices if you focused on the general cultural expectations?  Or do I misunderstand what you mean entirely?
  Sometimes I think I grasp certain points you've made, only to realize that I've missed the point due to an inaccurate presumption.  By turning your eyes outward, I think that I have mistook you for meaning some kind of rejection of some part of your culture-which apparently you didn't.    
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 15, 2012 at 7:43am

We've probably all heard of developmental tasks, the actions which, as children become adults, help them develop the abilities required of adults. Depending in part on what children learn in their families, they do these tasks at different ages.
I understand that during our twenties, many of us begin to see our emotional responses to events as differing from our words and actions that follow our emotional responses.
Neurologically, signals pass through the amygdala, which sends signals to various body parts to produce immediate responses, and to higher brain regions to produce considered responses.
Here on AN our ages vary widely, as do what we learned in our families. I suppose those are why some of us here separate better than others our emotional responses to events from our words and actions that follow our emotional responses.

 Permalink Reply by Steven D Campagna on January 20, 2012 at 9:45pm

ORTHODOX JEWS
'When boarding a crowded bus with standing passengers in the front, women should board the back door after paying the driver in the front.'
(Notice posted by 'Private Transportation Corporation', on its city-franchised B-110 bus in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn, N.Y. - New York Times 1-20-2011)
Orthodox Jews - still hateful and bigoted towards some of their own (females). Will the god-believing public ever accept women as equals?
 Permalink Reply by Natalie A Sera on January 20, 2012 at 10:15pm

Glad you distinguished Orthodox Jews from other Jews who very much disagree with their actions. It's like my devout and GOOD Christian friend said of the Fundies -- we can't deny that they are part of our family, but then again, there are white sheep and there are black sheep (not saying who're the good ones and who are the bad ones -- wouldn't want to be color-biased).

 Permalink Reply by Alice on January 21, 2012 at 3:52am

I've been on crowded buses in India and copped a few gropes - not sure what it's like in Orthodox Brooklyn, but it may be a protection!
 Permalink Reply by Tom Sarbeck on January 21, 2012 at 4:33am

Were the writers of the Old Testament telling of the overthrow of the region's matriarchal religions?


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