AtheistNexus.org article on Canada separation of church and state stance

.




Proud of my Country Today
Posted by Russell Pangborn on November 5, 2015 at 10:07am in Politics
View Discussions
.



Oaths of office






 Like 
2 members like this
.
Share   
  

 

Views: 430
▶ Reply to This
..


Replies to This Discussion
 Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on Thursday

My hat's off to Justin Trudeau and those of the Canadian government who have chosen to grow up and drop the stupid superstitions which still pervade the politics and practices of the United States.  I would give a lot to see the US find such a greater degree of maturity.  Sadly, I fear we'll be waiting a considerable while longer.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Atheist in FundyLand on Thursday

As soon as I saw the title, I knew you couldn't be from the U.S. XD

I doubt I will ever be proud of my country. We're the world's schoolyard bully and can't even say, "He hit me first!" anymore.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Visvakarman Svetasvatara-Upanish on Thursday

Lol I thought the same thing.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Sunday

I agree.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Pat on Thursday

A minister for Innovation and Science, and another for Environment and Climate Change? What are you guys? A bunch of rational, intelligent, educated, literate, sensible people who make governmental policy decisions based on verifiable and empirical evidence? You'd have a hard time getting elected down  here. We proudly decide things by reading the entrails of a dead chicken, or shaking the bones of a dead goat, or having a telepathic conversation with an invisible cosmic jewish zombie? Like the last line of the article says, "Stop showing off."
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Wayne Davison on Thursday
Damn Atheists are taking over the World. We may actually have a future!
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan on Thursday

Here in the US, the future ain't what it used to be.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on Friday

You got that right, Bertold.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Dyslexic's DOG on Friday

I guess Canada appears to have something to be proud of.
Unlike the U.S., which has a gerrymander to get rid of firstly and a republican party to bring at least into the 20th Century, as they probably couldn't cope with the 21st Century.
I can be reasonably proud of Australia, but, we too have some clinging to stupid traditions and religious piety to overcome.
I think Canada has real potential and hope that gets applied.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on Friday

Canadian politics appear to be a world ahead of the USA brand. Maybe someday we will learn and kick the fundies out, getting rid of the idea of putting Genesis back into government. I find it strange that so many in America feel that the Democrats are Communists while they suffer along with very little and think that the answer is to get the Repubs in office and it is this very group that restrains them. It's almost like wanting and voting for the Taliban.
"I have a dime. Let's elect somebody that will take it away."

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan on Friday

You're right, Michael, the Repugs have mastered one crucial art of deception: getting people to vote directly against their own self-interest. By espousing crazy ideas they don't even believe themselves they induce crazy in others.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on Sunday

There's a reason I call them Republicons. They excel at selling the story of "You too could be a millionaire if it weren't for the damn librul gubmint."
Also Republican'ts, as in "the party of no."
▶ Reply


‹ Previous

http://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/proud-of-my-country-today?xg_source=activity&id=2182797%3ATopic%3A2654174&page=1#comments











 







.




Proud of my Country Today
Posted by Russell Pangborn on November 5, 2015 at 10:07am in Politics
View Discussions
.



Oaths of office






 Like 
2 members like this
.
Share   
  

 

Views: 428
▶ Reply to This
..


Replies to This Discussion
 Permalink Reply by Dyslexic's DOG on Friday

I have a feeling that Obama would like to have done more to rid the US of crazies, but, his hands were tied by congress and that stupid gerrymander which keeps the crazies influential in US decision making.  Though the gerrymander could stay if those sacred republican regions were to change their allegiance, as then it would no longer work for the republicans. Though that is harder than just getting rid of it.



▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by k.h. ky on Saturday
Dog, you're right about that. When I was made to change polling stations last year (now I have to drive 14 miles instead of a mile) l knew it was to discourage dems and independents from voting.
 Found out from Tues vote that dems outvote repubs at my prior voting place.
 I drove the damned 14miles to spite them :)
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Dyslexic's DOG on Sunday

LOL Ky, well done!  :-D~
GOP deserves all the spite Americans can muster.
Though there is still the chance that the crazies may get in for 2016, especially that Willy-crANKER, Ben Carson.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

According to histories I read several decades ago, evangelicals twice in American history became disillusioned with politics and returned to their churches.
Some of the turmoil in today's GOP appears related to evangelicals' being unhappy with their treatment by the party's professionals.
BTW, Wikipedia tells of several great awakenings and of their leaders. I read quickly and saw nothing of the reasons for their ending

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Gerald Payne on Friday

I wish UK politics was as representative of the people. I've written another letter to my MP complaining about prayers at council meetings. A councillor resigned after being defeated by 42 to 5 votes in a bid to stop the prayers, that's after a poll in the ''Hertfordshire observer'' resulted in a public vote of 92% against the prayers. The whole electoral system needs to be dismantled.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Friday


...a public vote of 92% against the prayers.
Gerald, did most of the people in that 92% not vote?
We here in the USA have that problem. Conservatives ALWAYS vote; liberals often don't bother.
For this reason, conservatives often win in low-turnout special elections and liberals-progressives often win in the high-turnout November general elections.
We San Francisco Bay Area lefties know that "checkbook liberals" (aka limousine liberals) provide the money for our efforts so we are patient.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Saturday

I'm not proud of the country I was born and raised in, and 65 years ago went to war for.
I'm reading The Wikileaks Files: The World According to US Empire, and have just finished the section on US War Crimes and the ICC (International Criminal Court)

I will leave to others the 2,325,961 diplomatic cables and other US State Department records that Julian Assange, in his Introduction, says Wikileaks has published and this ebook tells how to access.
America's taxpayers are generous to veterans but I've known for years it's not my country.
Nationalism is at least as harmful as religion.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by k.h. ky on Saturday
Tom, you and I think alike.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Saturday

Thanks, Kathy.
A friend of mine several weeks ago asked me if I wanted to overthrow the government.
"Yes," I replied.
"What's stopping you?"
"I don't have enough allies."
With you aboard, Kathy, maybe I can.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Saturday

Tom, I agree, "Nationalism is at least as harmful as religion."
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on Saturday

I'm ex-military and my step father once told me I wasn't very patriotic. Why would I salute flags, stand and place my right hand over my heart at sporting games, and so forth? I'm no longer in the Army. I'm not ducking under my school desk in case of a Communist attack. I served my country but didn't drink the koolaide.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Daniel W on Sunday
Me too. I served and did so willingly. Jingoism and saluting and making pledges is like a public prayer. Like prayer, it does nothing. Serving in the military honorably takes anyone off the hook from pseudopatriots who do nothing. So does voting intelligently.
▶ Reply


‹ Previous

http://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/proud-of-my-country-today?xg_source=activity&id=2182797%3ATopic%3A2654174&page=2#comments










 








Sign Up

Sign In
 





Atheist Nexus

.
  
  
Main

















Blogs

Forum

Groups




















Videos











Get Active











Chat





Photos

Videos
..





All Discussions
My Discussions
Add
.




Proud of my Country Today
Posted by Russell Pangborn on November 5, 2015 at 10:07am in Politics
View Discussions
.



Oaths of office






 Like 
2 members like this
.
Share   
  

 

Views: 427
▶ Reply to This
..


Replies to This Discussion
 Permalink Reply by Dyslexic's DOG on Sunday

I tried to join the army and got rejected on medical grounds.
Though I'm aware that the same psychological tactics are used by the army as the Catholic church uses to keep sheep.
False kinship and shame./guilt
The kinship trip they introduced us to in cadets, as a lead up to serving.
The pentecostal church also uses this, in as soon as you join, you suddenly have instant friends and a new family.
All these are to entice loyalty.
I really didn't care about loyalty to the army, I just wanted to help protect our lifestyle.
Suddenly having fake brothers, didn't sum up any loyalty, as I'd just as soon shoot them if they threatened me.
I never saw them as kin, but as competition.
I guess I also failed on psychological grounds.
LOL! 
:-D~
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Russell Pangborn on Saturday

Tom and Joan.
I agree that nationalism can be as harmful as religion. I hope you don't see my nationalistic pride in that light. For the last ten years I have been not so proud as the Harper government was anti science, one sided in their approach to the Isreal/Palestinian crises, big on negative political ads, looking to put more people in jail like the U.S.,  restrictive and scripted with journalists ...
Harper was more into blindly supporting American wars - I was also proud when Jean Chretien resisted Bush's pressure to go into Iraq. (Harper in opposition said we should have gone)
There is still room for improvement. I wish that Canada could be more like the Nordic countries with free tuition.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday


... I hope you don't see my nationalistic pride [as a form of religion].
Russell, I will not write an essay. I will not write an essay. I will not write an essay. Et cetera.
I started one but was able to stop before it became inevitable.
I will settle for repeating what a sociologist decades ago told me: "The first task of government is to make large numbers of people governable."
America and its drive for empire will keep me busy.
I will leave Canada to Canadians and wish you all well.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Sunday

Some military men and women perform horrendous acts of cruelty and brutality throughout history. Populations, armies, governments, and religions sanction such behavior from the time of the earliest Bible writings. The Attitudes, Beliefs, Customs, Traditions, and Values that encourage violence as part of their "normal" social structure leave behind a legacy of physical, mental, and emotional wreckage that defines the character of a nation and an individual in ways unintended. Some people do things that are "normal" even if they are harmful to others and society. The ABCTVs that maintain and perpetuate wreckage goes on for generations because they are learned behaviors.
It is possible to change the ABCTVs that use violence as a strategy for the power of one person or one nation or one army or one religion over another.
If one observes a physical or mental or emotional act of violence and remains silent it implies agreement. In order to challenge such ABCTVs, identify the act as violence and confront it.
Some people do not recognize violence when it occurs. It is "normal", not healthy behavior.  Healthy behavior requires skills that can be learned. Effective communication, ability to recognize the problems and their consequences, skills of identifying the difference between "normal" and healthy, facility of exploring options and choosing healthy ones instead of normal ones. Individuals can learn to make plans and decisions, and how to manage anger, fear, guilt, shame, and sorrow. Teams can learn how to spot and stop "group think".
These skills require Attitudes, Beliefs, Customs, Traditions and Values that have their foundations built on wanting to solve problems so that everybody wins. Fascists, brutes, thugs, and barbarians cannot and will not learn these skills. There is strength in numbers; people with common challenges can join together and stand as a unit in defiance of reactionaries.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on Sunday

Populations, armies, governments, and religions sanction [cruelty and brutality from military service members] from the time of the earliest Bible writings.
Worth a look: Kent Shifferd's book From War to Peace: A Guide to the Next Hundred Years.
"This book analyzes the war system's infiltration of all aspects of Western culture and how it perpetuates war" -- as a frequent, acceptable, normal, praiseworthy and honored "last resort" (ha!) -- "rather than promotes peace, describing the evolving parallel system of peace institutions. The values and ideas of peace activism offer an opportunity to outlaw war in the coming century just as slavery was abolished in the 19th century."
I borrowed it last year, and found it worthwhile and eye-opening though textbook-dense; I ended up skipping around rather than reading every page.
See Tom Hastings' review, "Carving a line of sight backward and forward to peace".
Goodreads page, with links to various online stores (Right now half.com also has used copies at $15 and $20, and Amazon is offering a Kindle edition for $15)
Worldcat page, with a listing of libraries that have it; you may be able to borrow it through interlibrary loan from your public library.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

What do politicians do when they fail?
They declare war or they raise taxes.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Daniel W on Sunday

Joan, I do agree fully - war crimes are crimes, and war is a setting where they propagate.
The group-think situation is something that many organizations foster - university departments, corporations, political parties, military groups, schools, cliques, mobs.  Corporations foster group think.  If someone tries to provide perspective, they can be excluded and shot down.   There is a strong "us/them" mentality.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

In the US of A,  two kinds of people open meetings with the Pledge of Allegiance: American jingoists and xian jingoists.
I tell American jingoists what the US Supreme Court in 1940 said about the Pledge: its purpose is to bring children into the political culture.
I tell xian jingoists what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13 11: "...when I became a man I  put away childish things."
Jingoists don't embarrass easily. I remind American jingoists that what the Court said is still the law of the land. I remind xian jingoists that I had long ago put away childish things.
In a year, in two organizations, I won once and lost once.


▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Sunday

Tom, what skills did you use to win the jingoist conflict
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

Knowing parliamentary law and being elected a club's president gave me the opportunity.
Doing away with a childish Pledge of Allegiance was fun.
Doing away with "those two words" was a delight.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Russell Pangborn on Sunday

Proud of my family, proud of atheist nexus, proud that my province made a good decision that improved our lives, proud that my country is not demanding obeisance to god when taking an oath of office doesn't mean I'm looking to go to war with anybody. I'm not sure why this discussion has gone in that direction.
I'm not going blindly down any roads with Canada, family or atheist nexus. Each group should make a reasoned decision before you get me cheering instead of booing.
What do you people think of Bernie Sanders. He has voted against most wars, wants to have free tuition and wants to dismantle the corporate prison system down there. Would you be proud of your fellow electorate if he actually became President.
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Daniel W on Sunday

Ashamed of my country for low turner turnout.  Chose your article - low almost everywhere.  Americans who don't vote deserve the govt that ruins their lives.  Americans who don't hold their politicians' feet to the fire and insist on actual substance, actual facts, actual data, actual reason, and vote on the basis of name recognition on some stupid streetiside sign, pretty faces, fact-free made up bullshit - they deserve the gov that they get too.

The elections in the USA are determined by a very small portion of voters, with the fanatical fringes having a disproportionate effect on the outcomes.   All involved should be ashamed of themselves.
▶ Reply


‹ Previous


http://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/proud-of-my-country-today?xg_source=activity&id=2182797%3ATopic%3A2654174&page=3#comments










 








Sign Up

Sign In
 





Atheist Nexus

.
  
  
Main

















Blogs

Forum

Groups




















Videos











Get Active











Chat





Photos

Videos
..





All Discussions
My Discussions
Add
.




Proud of my Country Today
Posted by Russell Pangborn on November 5, 2015 at 10:07am in Politics
View Discussions
.



Oaths of office






 Like 
2 members like this
.
Share   
  

 

Views: 435
▶ Reply to This
..


Replies to This Discussion
 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on Sunday

Daniel, action is more needed than shame and action requires education. Education requires people like us having the facts and the desire for change..
The education has to include knowledge of the intentions of America's founders. Here are the words of four founders in the 1787 Constitutional Convention, and the dates they said these words.

ELBRIDGE GERRY. The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people don't lack virtue but are the dupes of pretended patriots. In Massachusetts experience has shown that they are led daily into the most baneful measures and opinions by false reports of designing men, which no one on the spot can refute. (May 31)
ALEXANDER HAMILTON. The people are turbulent and changing; they seldom judge or determine right. Give therefore to the rich and well-born a distinct and permanent share in the government. They will check the unsteadiness of the mass of the people, and as they cannot receive any advantage by a change, they therefore will ever maintain good government. (June 18)
JAMES MADISON. In framing a system we wish to last for ages, we should not lose sight of the changes the ages will bring. An increase of population will increase the proportion who labor under all the hardships of life and secretly sigh for a more equal distribution of its blessings. These may in time outnumber those who are placed above feelings of indigence. According to the equal laws of suffrage, the power will slide into the hands of the former. No agrarian attempts have yet been made in this country, but symptoms of a leveling spirit have sufficiently appeared in certain quarters to give notice of the future danger. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests and check the other. It ought to be formed as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. (June 26)
GOVERNEUR MORRIS. We must take care that we don't establish a rule that will enable the poor but numerous inhabitants of the western country to destroy the Atlantic states. Men don't unite for liberty or life; in the savage state they possess both in the highest perfection. They unite to protect their property. (July 5)

How much of the required education and desire do we have?

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Russell Pangborn 21 hours ago

Second Letter
Take God, Queen out of oath
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Michael Penn 21 hours ago

I'm always reminded of old UK movies (made in America) where one charactor always says,
                                                "God save the Qwine."
That always cracks me up!
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat 15 hours ago

Bravo! Well said!
(The new cabinet ministers who omitted "so help me God") "may or may not be religious, but the separation of church from state is music to the ears of atheists, agnostics and secularists."
"Maybe our neighbours to the south could learn something from us."
Let's hope! (Though we in the States will probably obstinately stick to our own spelling of "neighbors". :-)
▶ Reply


‹ Previous


http://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/proud-of-my-country-today?xg_source=activity&id=2182797%3ATopic%3A2654174&page=4#comments