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Vigil at Dehlin’s ex-ing this Sunday
Posted: 04 February 2015 06:48 PM [ Ignore ]
Curious NeverMo
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Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
Posted: 04 February 2015 08:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Morethanmo
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Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
Secret combinations anybody? But it has become the backbone of mormon leadership to hide their actions. They are cowards.
If members believe these men are called of Gawd, then they have power. But they can only argue that Gawd is on their side as long as they hide their ugly ways from outsiders. If these men truly believed that GAWD was on their side, why would they need to be secretive in any way?
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Posted: 04 February 2015 09:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Morethanmo:
Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
Secret combinations anybody? But it has become the backbone of mormon leadership to hide their actions. They are cowards.
If members believe these men are called of Gawd, then they have power. But they can only argue that Gawd is on their side as long as they hide their ugly ways from outsiders. If these men truly believed that GAWD was on their side, why would they need to be secretive in any way?
Yes--they are cowards and it is only going to get worse for them. Know what is funny? How we are the ones who live and talk in the open. We say what we think on here--knowing BKP may be cussing us. We do not care because we are certain of our position. We have nothing to hide because we live our truth in the open.
Absolutely--if they had the power of god--they would not care what anyone thinks. The would be certain of their path but they keep changing it and keep hiding it. Really--what do you do if you know that if the truth comes out--your ship goes down? If they were real men--they would throw away that ship of lies and make an honest course. They are just a bunch of jerks embezzling from innocent folks who want to be with their families forever. Sigh. I would surely rather be us--than them! End of Rant. Goodnight my honest PostMo friends. The force is with us.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 05 February 2015 04:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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OldSoul
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Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
If they had nothing to hide, recording the proceedings would be a non-issue. The only reason confidentiality should ever be maintained is for the consideration of the person who's on trial. Ironically the content and result of these things is rarely kept confidential by those involved. At least one person on the inside spills and the whole ward knows exactly what's up within the week.
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“Never forget! The higher we soar, the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly.”
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Posted: 05 February 2015 05:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
former victim
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For me here, I think that this goes to show everyone watching, just how far TSCC will go to make you their bitch.
Posted: 05 February 2015 08:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Bold Wish
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former victim:
For me here, I think that this goes to show everyone watching, just how far TSCC will go to make you their bitch.
That's always good for a hearty LOL! So true!
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. . . in fact, it has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom his blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extend as to excite the comments of all who have known them.
Posted: 05 February 2015 08:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Tessa
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It will be funny if someone gets on video, John being "wanded" for hidden cameras...(those little spy shoppes do a great business.)
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Posted: 05 February 2015 12:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
If the church were to place any constraints like that on me, I'd show up with my resignation letter in pocket and when everyone is settled I'd rise and drop the letter on the table and say, "I hereby excommunicate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from my life for repeated behavior of its highest representatives that falls short of normal standards of honesty, integrity, and justice. I can no longer in good conscience remain a member." Then I'd walk out.
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Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.
- Joseph Campbell
Posted: 05 February 2015 12:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Jeff Ricks:
Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
If the church were to place any constraints like that on me, I'd show up with my resignation letter in pocket and when everyone is settled I'd rise and drop the letter on the table and say, "I hereby excommunicate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from my life for repeated behavior of its highest representatives that falls short of normal standards of honesty, integrity, and justice. I can no longer in good conscience remain a member." Then I'd walk out.
Absolutely. Seems to me, this is what everyone with courage and integrity should do to this SCC. I feel like banging my head--not understanding--why members are not lined up at meeting houses around the globe--telling them just this.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 05 February 2015 12:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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former victim:
For me here, I think that this goes to show everyone watching, just how far TSCC will go to make you their bitch.
If Joseph Smith has a view (from hell) of the members scrubbing toilets and singing "Praise to the Man" AFTER the church has admitted Joseph is a "Warren Jeffs" , Joe Smith is probably laughing at how WILLING members are to be the church's "B" word.
You are too funny former victim!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 05 February 2015 02:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Curious NeverMo
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Jeff Ricks:
Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
If the church were to place any constraints like that on me, I'd show up with my resignation letter in pocket and when everyone is settled I'd rise and drop the letter on the table and say, "I hereby excommunicate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from my life for repeated behavior of its highest representatives that falls short of normal standards of honesty, integrity, and justice. I can no longer in good conscience remain a member." Then I'd walk out.
Seems to me that why this is an opportunity for anyone in the area, whatever their feelings about JD, to express their objection to the authority the church pretends it has to silence and cow people.
I assume if there are any amount of people the press will cover this as they've covered the aspects fo this excommunication moving forward for the last 6 or 9 months or so.
Posted: 05 February 2015 06:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
Nephi
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So how about the names of the 12 High Counselors and maybe an indication as to which 6 of them are 'defending' him? Supposedly 6 of them search high and low so they can give anything and everything positive about the accused.
Think they will really do that here?
How about a few with vehicles or vans using listening devices to hear what really goes on and record it for one and all to hear after the fact? I bet, really bet that there won't be 6 defending John Dehlin. Kangaroo Court is what I believe will happen. All with "sign this non-disclosure statement" just as Jesus himself would do - Pure Bullshit from a Stake President in an area that is full of it.
Just over from him is a former Stake Prez who owns a major meat packing company and owned a Savings and Loan in Ogden - who would follow women employees into the bathrooms and molest them - THAT is the calibre of "Judges" who will be in the room.
I really hope someone or more than one someone records the whole thing for us to hear later.
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My dog has Health in the navel. marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews…
He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
That is reserved for the Cat.
Posted: 05 February 2015 07:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Heretic
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I think John Dehlin should take his camera crew with him to the trial. And if the inquisitors refuse to allow the crew in to record the trial, then he should refuse to participate and leave.
I think it would be cool if 500 people showed at the demonstration and made the inquisitors run a gauntlet past people photographing and filming them and sticking microphones in their faces asking questions. Both on their way into the building and then again on their way out.
Posted: 06 February 2015 09:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
Curious NeverMo
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I found this interesting. One commenter on the Mormon Stories site said:
-
I just read the Church Handbook (2006) sections on disciplinary councils, courtesy of http://www.wikileaks.org, and there is nothing whatsoever stating that the accused may not record the council proceedings. So why does Brian King think he has any right to condition John’s participation in his own disciplinary council, to defend himself, on John signing an agreement not to record the council proceedings? Why is Brian King imposing rules on John that appear nowhere in the Church Handbook?
Isn't there a more recent Church Handbook than 2006 though? Anyone know if the current version in effect indicates that recording is prohibited to anyone but the church's representatives?
Posted: 07 February 2015 07:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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readbooks
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I would love to go to this and support JD, but I'm afraid of the repercussions for me. Although I've left TSCC, I still work as a teacher in Cache Valley and I cannot put my job in jeopardy. What a sad commentary on TSCC. It is such a bully that I don't dare protest it.
Posted: 07 February 2015 09:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
Curious NeverMo
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readbooks:
I would love to go to this and support JD, but I'm afraid of the repercussions for me. Although I've left TSCC, I still work as a teacher in Cache Valley and I cannot put my job in jeopardy. What a sad commentary on TSCC. It is such a bully that I don't dare protest it.
Man! I really respect that but what an indictment in itself!
You should definitely do what's right for you but wouldn't it be something if people showed up in ski masks with a sign saying they feel threatened to express their true views?! NOT suggesting you need to do that; I'm rather thinking out loud. But that's what the problem about the church and the matter of Kate Kelly's and John Dehlin's excommunications comes down to, isn't it? 'Cause the church's argument about "religious freedom" has that nugget of truth: people absolutely SHOULD be free to believe and worship as they choose. Institutional churches just SHOULDN'T be running individuals' lives, most especially those who no longer voluntarily subscribe to churchs' authority. ... or never did as is the case for gay Americans and women all over the country.
Posted: 07 February 2015 11:29 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Bold Wish
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readbooks:
It is such a bully that I don't dare protest it.
I don't blame you one bit for not participating but it seems the organizations' controlling behavior like this is more evidence of a cult that's really over the top when it comes to controlling their members
Sad for those who want to show support but who feel negative results would follow
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Juvenile Instructor (26:635)
. . . in fact, it has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom his blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extend as to excite the comments of all who have known them.
Posted: 07 February 2015 01:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
Curious NeverMo
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Posted: 07 February 2015 02:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
Nephi
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Some might as well show up in full Temple outfits and wearing Thomas Monson masks. (women can veil their faces, bow their heads and say NO)
Record using parabolic mikes. Let the jokers in charge walk through a line of cameras, video recorders, tape recorders and questions. No violence, just a large presence to let them know they are being watched.
Maybe the electric power will go out shortly after the meeting starts?
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My dog has Health in the navel. marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews…
He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
That is reserved for the Cat.
Posted: 07 February 2015 08:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
zelph-doubt
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OldSoul:
Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
If they had nothing to hide, recording the proceedings would be a non-issue. The only reason confidentiality should ever be maintained is for the consideration of the person who's on trial. Ironically the content and result of these things is rarely kept confidential by those involved. At least one person on the inside spills and the whole ward knows exactly what's up within the week.
I'm old enough to remember when the results of church courts were announced from the pulpit during opening exercises of Priesthood Meeting. The Bishop would announce the member's name, what they were charged with and the determination/verdict.
Confidentiality. Pffft.
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Posted: 07 February 2015 08:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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Depending on circumstances, they'll still publicly announce the verdict, but not the accusation. One example of when they still do so is in cases where the former member still tries to participate in church meetings or ordinances like priesthood blessings or makes public representations that he/she is a member of the church in good standing.
While the charges don't get publicly announced, they eventually get passed on to everybody in the stake.
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Posted: 08 February 2015 09:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Lea Christensen-Martin
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Jeff Ricks:
Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
If the church were to place any constraints like that on me, I'd show up with my resignation letter in pocket and when everyone is settled I'd rise and drop the letter on the table and say, "I hereby excommunicate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from my life for repeated behavior of its highest representatives that falls short of normal standards of honesty, integrity, and justice. I can no longer in good conscience remain a member." Then I'd walk out.
Jeff, this is a great way to start a resignation letter. Do you mind if I use your words for that purpose?
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Posted: 08 February 2015 01:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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Lea Christensen-Martin:
Jeff Ricks:
Curious NeverMo:
Just in case anyone's interested, there will be a vigil at 5:30 outside the North Logan stake center.
And apparently JD published the SP's letter asking the Dehlins to pledge not to record the proceedings in any way. I didn't see that letter but I sure hope one or both of them and anyone else in attendance will indeed find a way to record it.
If the church were to place any constraints like that on me, I'd show up with my resignation letter in pocket and when everyone is settled I'd rise and drop the letter on the table and say, "I hereby excommunicate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from my life for repeated behavior of its highest representatives that falls short of normal standards of honesty, integrity, and justice. I can no longer in good conscience remain a member." Then I'd walk out.
Jeff, this is a great way to start a resignation letter. Do you mind if I use your words for that purpose?
Lea, feel free to use it but make sure you include a statement somewhere in the letter where you say something like, I hereby notify you that I have resigned my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If it were me I'd maybe tack it onto the last sentence you bold above and write this: I can no longer in good conscience remain a member of the church and hereby notify you that I have resigned my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and instruct you to update your records to reflect my new status.
Also, run it past someone who has more experience than I do with helping people resign.
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Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.
- Joseph Campbell
Posted: 08 February 2015 06:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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readbooks
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For those of us who could not be there in person, you can light a candle for John on this webpage. http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=JOHN
Posted: 08 February 2015 09:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
Curious NeverMo
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http://fox13now.com/2015/02/08/lds-church-disciplinary-council-for-john-dehlin-of-mormon-stories-concludes-no-decision-sunday/
http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2156888-155/hundreds-applaud-mormon-critic-as-he
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What Was Your Experience With Mormon “Testemony”?
Posted: 05 February 2015 06:10 PM [ Ignore ]
sam2
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Greetings All.
This topic is to see what people experienced with the so called Mormon "testimony." Did you have one? Did you not have one? Do you think that the term is a joke? Did you try to gain a "testimony"? Do you think people lie about their "testimony," if so how many lie in your estimation?
I never had a testimony. At least not in the way the Church says should happen. I tried it all: praying, reading the book, listening to the Profit and his used car salesmen sidekicks, ect. Nothing ever came of it, nothing at all. Oh and the insulting part is that the people in my ward kept telling me it was all my fault, that is until I caught on to the trick. Mormonism says one should seek the Almighty for an answer, but if that answer is anything but what they want to hear then the seeker is wrong. THAT IS DISHONEST! ITS SPIRITUAL EXTORTION!
So once I caught on to the bovine scatology I bounced like a basketball. I still read the Book of Moron (intentional misspelling) and keep finding thing after thing that disproves what the LDS Church claims.
So now I do in fact have a testimony. I know the church to be absolutely false. I know that Joe Smith was a false prophet and a CON MAN. I know the Book of Mormon to be a work of fiction in its parts and in its totality, I know that the church leadership continues to actively engage in what it knows to be a conspiracy, that is to disseminate an abject lie and to suppress any and all dissent within its ranks, and to hide at all costs the actual truth and facts related to the lie, its history, and where it came from.
Posted: 05 February 2015 07:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Heretic
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I was like you. I never had a testimony. I tried and tried to get one. I did about everything except for self-flagellation. I finally decided that the Book of Mormon promise was telling me that the Book of Mormon was not true, because the answer I got when praying was always stupor of thought/silence/doubts/sadness.
I grew up in church, hated being bored at church when I was a kid, was absolutely miserable when I was in high school, because I could not get a testimony, was an angry heretic theorizing about and preaching about strange doctrines in college, and suddenly quit the church cold turkey about a year after graduation. (Never went on a mission. Had no testimony. Couldn't be an effective door-to-door salesman for a product I did not like or believe in.)
Posted: 05 February 2015 09:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Elder OldDog
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My youthful testimony was based on the fact (and I will always believe this 'fact') that really, really good people had testimonies that the church was true. And if they knew it, that was good enough for me.
Those people are long dead. I think most of them died happy, because it was a much happier church back then.
I never got the witness of the spirit about the BofM. But it wasn't that big a deal, because after all, the church was "twoo!"
But then in about September of 1966 I had occasion to sincerely and desperately want to know the answer to a question. And I made my only genuine attempt to seek the guidance of good ol' ghawd. I fasted and then when I was prepared, I knelt in prayer and asked ghawd my question. There was no response. There was just silence. I've never been one to fool myself or to be played for a fool.
That was pretty much it for me, although I did complete my mission, but not by its rules, but by my own. I did not lead any more people down into the waters of baptism.
So why did I go to the Y, find a BYU bride and marry her in the temple? Because that's all I know how to do. I didn't know how NOT to be a mormon... It took awhile, but i finally learned.
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Posted: 06 February 2015 02:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Bold Wish
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"What Was Your Experience With Mormon 'Testemony'?"
I guess we've all witnessed similar:
Dave C - who ALWAYS gets up to blah, blah, blah . . . voice quivering . . . go Dave!
Parents whispering what to say as they hold their kids ()
My absolute total favorite F&T meeting involved an old woman who got up . . . and this was at the end of my participation days . . . and she said "And I'm thankful for the Border Patrol" and I literally laughed out loud. Several people turned around to see who just laughed but I couldn't help it. TBM wife wasn't very happy about that either.
I'm thankful for Cheezus and Border Patrol. Who needs anything else?
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Juvenile Instructor (26:635)
. . . in fact, it has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom his blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extend as to excite the comments of all who have known them.
Posted: 06 February 2015 06:09 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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OldSoul
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I was a full blown spirit feeling true believer. I felt I had personal revelation, answers to prayers, and a testimony of the restoration, the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith. I was faithful and obedient to all the commandments and I tried really hard every month to fullfil my callings and do 100% home teaching. We held family home evening most every week. I did both personal and family scripture study (the family part of that was off and on). And we held family prayer usually twice daily. You don't get much more dedicated and believing than I was.
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“Never forget! The higher we soar, the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly.”
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Posted: 06 February 2015 09:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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I had some very strong spiritual experiences, visions and dreams, and heard some audible voices, but mostly I had warm fuzzy feelings that show that I was comfortable in the environment in which I was raised. All the other stuff was just hallucinations of various kinds. I had the spiritual experiences in what I'd call adhered states: sleep deprivation caused by early morning seminary, hunger of fasting, and cult-induced existential anxiety.
This was the basis of my testimony, and it was strong enough to keep me going until I realized my daughter was unable to get a testimony despite her fervent pleas to "Heavenly Father" over the two years preceding her baptism and the two years succeeding it. We told her God wild honor his promise, but he never did, and she was distraught. When I came to the realization that the pressure the church (and I) were placing on her was a cause of extreme distress, while Jesus gave her no comfort, I had to reassess what my spiritual experiences were in that light, and reassess everything about the church. That's when the shelf of historical and wacko doctrinal issues collapsed.
I thought I knew the truth by the Spirit, but it was just a comfortable lie.
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Taken for a fool
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Posted: 07 February 2015 03:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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I never had a real testimony. I had some experiences with intense and beautiful emotions, but these were related to family togetherness or some moving story. They never attached to "and I know the church is true." For some reason with me the feelings happened rarely and they never conveyed the promised conviction.
That's how I came to believe that I was loathsome and rejected by God. I had a deep conviction that I was irreparably and unacceptably defective. Over the decades I have worked on that, but Mormonism contributed only to the injury, not to the healing. By contrast, atheism, Buddhism, and empiricism have been far more helpful to me.
Posted: 07 February 2015 07:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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readbooks
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I was like Old Soul. I truly believed that I had a testimony. The "warm feelings" were very strong with me. I didn't even eat coffee flavored candy or laugh loudly, that's how stalwart I was. Yet, it all evaporated over a weekend and I was able to walk out of the "Truman Show" fairly easily.
Posted: 07 February 2015 08:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Morethanmo
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My post isn't about having a testimony while I was a believer. I wanted to tell you how I used Moroni's promise to leave Mornonism. Flashback to September 2013---
I had been avoiding church for weeks in my singles ward. I would dress in my Sunday best, go to the store for a snack and take a drive and park in a variety of places. Sometimes I chose a large shopping center near the edge of the lot or a park or lookout point. One such Sunday, after reading some disturbing things on the Internet (the temple ceremony), I stopped at a park and started reading. I became distraught about the book of Abraham and my mind was racing with confusion.
"Joseph Smith must have translated the plates the same as the scrolls", I thought. I was freaking out about the church lying about so much. I read something about letting myself believe the church might not be true. And something snapped in my brain. I immediately prayed and asked God, not if the church was true, but if I should leave the church. I felt that warm feeling of confirmation. I asked if it was false, again confirmed. I had tears streaming down my face as I ended the prayer. I knew for a fact the church was false, by it's own reasoning. This also made the reasoning false. I felt a peace that the church was not true.
I thought, "Well then, I want to try a latte." I drove to the nearest Starbucks and purchased a caramel macchiato and fell in love, instantly.
Even with all this assurance that I no longer believed Mormonism to be true, I still wondered if I COULD leave.
I called one of my best friends, in tears, and told him I was thinking about leaving the mormon church. He simply replied, "RUN". He told me I would be much happier and have a fuller life. He said, "Get ready for your life to change in a big way."
He was right; all because of Moroni's promise.
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Posted: 07 February 2015 12:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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4thNephite
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sam:
Greetings All.
This topic is to see what people experienced with the so called Mormon "testimony." Did you have one? Did you not have one? Do you think that the term is a joke? Did you try to gain a "testimony"? Do you think people lie about their "testimony," if so how many lie in your estimation?
I never had a testimony. At least not in the way the Church says should happen. I tried it all: praying, reading the book, listening to the Profit and his used car salesmen sidekicks, ect. Nothing ever came of it, nothing at all. Oh and the insulting part is that the people in my ward kept telling me it was all my fault, that is until I caught on to the trick. Mormonism says one should seek the Almighty for an answer, but if that answer is anything but what they want to hear then the seeker is wrong. THAT IS DISHONEST! ITS SPIRITUAL EXTORTION!
So once I caught on to the bovine scatology I bounced like a basketball. I still read the Book of Moron (intentional misspelling) and keep finding thing after thing that disproves what the LDS Church claims.
So now I do in fact have a testimony. I know the church to be absolutely false. I know that Joe Smith was a false prophet and a CON MAN. I know the Book of Mormon to be a work of fiction in its parts and in its totality, I know that the church leadership continues to actively engage in what it knows to be a conspiracy, that is to disseminate an abject lie and to suppress any and all dissent within its ranks, and to hide at all costs the actual truth and facts related to the lie, its history, and where it came from.
Not only do people lie about their testimony, they are explicitly encouraged to do so by church leaders such as the manipulative Dallin Oaks.
And, for the record, I was exactly like you. I never got the spiritual "witness" that I sought. While TBM, it made me feel awful but now I am glad to know that my subconscious self is not so easily manipulated.
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
Posted: 08 February 2015 07:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Morethanmo:
My post isn't about having a testimony while I was a believer. I wanted to tell you how I used Moroni's promise to leave Mornonism. Flashback to September 2013---
I had been avoiding church for weeks in my singles ward. I would dress in my Sunday best, go to the store for a snack and take a drive and park in a variety of places. Sometimes I chose a large shopping center near the edge of the lot or a park or lookout point. One such Sunday, after reading some disturbing things on the Internet (the temple ceremony), I stopped at a park and started reading. I became distraught about the book of Abraham and my mind was racing with confusion.
"Joseph Smith must have translated the plates the same as the scrolls", I thought. I was freaking out about the church lying about so much. I read something about letting myself believe the church might not be true. And something snapped in my brain. I immediately prayed and asked God, not if the church was true, but if I should leave the church. I felt that warm feeling of confirmation. I asked if it was false, again confirmed. I had tears streaming down my face as I ended the prayer. I knew for a fact the church was false, by it's own reasoning. This also made the reasoning false. I felt a peace that the church was not true.
I thought, "Well then, I want to try a latte." I drove to the nearest Starbucks and purchased a caramel macchiato and fell in love, instantly.
Even with all this assurance that I no longer believed Mormonism to be true, I still wondered if I COULD leave.
I called one of my best friends, in tears, and told him I was thinking about leaving the mormon church. He simply replied, "RUN". He told me I would be much happier and have a fuller life. He said, "Get ready for your life to change in a big way."
He was right; all because of Moroni's promise.
Powerful story. Thanks for sharing this one. Sometimes even Moroni gets it right!
Posted: 08 February 2015 08:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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MishMagnet
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I did have a testimony and had some pretty strong spiritual experiences, ones that other people say have never happened even closely to them (and they were able to maintain their faith in the church while I was not.)
I feel like this - when I was a younger person I believed in a lot of things with my whole heart. I think you can do that before life has really punched you for the first time.
All the good happy warm fuzzy feelings in the world don't trump the facts and the cold hard truth.
I compare the loss of my faith in the church to being in a happy marriage and one day stumbling across something small, a text, a piece of paper that brings it all down. You can feel love in your heart and trust another person and get the shivers when you hear a love song and believe you will always be together. But that doesn't trump the cold hard truth if that person you love is deceiving you.
In fact I can't think of anything in life that I put 100% behind at this point. Things can always go bad. Friendships can end, people can betray, money can disappear, your sports team can lose, you are going to change, it's the only constant in life. The things you love with 100% of your heart today may not mean much to you in 10 years. I think that's just a part of being an adult, realizing that all is transient. Disaster could happen at any moment, someone could be out to do you wrong. Everything should be taken with a grain of salt.
I say all that maintaining that I find the world beautiful and life beautiful and I wake up each day with gratitude in my heart for being here. I love those around me, I try to be a good citizen of my neighborhood, city, country. I try to be positive, I live a happy life.
I haven't become a pessimist or a cynic, I don't think. A realist perhaps. So yes, I did have a testimony of the church at one time. I also believed in Santa Clause. It's the magic, it's the spirit of it. I get it. It's the good feels. You can be swimming in those feels and it's great. But then you find out that you yourself are Santa Clause and you yourself are the spirit of the church and Joseph Smith really wasn't that great of a guy in the end.
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I don’t want to ruin the ending for you ...... but it’s all going to be okay.
Posted: 08 February 2015 09:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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SilentAnya
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I never had a testimony, except for the one whispered into my ear when I was 5. I stopped getting up to the pulpit on fast sundays when I was about 9 years old, and I never really cared about getting one. I knew I was supposed to have one, but I just...didn't care. But I would half-ass one for the last day of Girl's Camp every year, just to get the leaders off my back. I didn't share one year and they all tried to guilt trip me on the way back home. Lovingly, of course.
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If the man doesn’t believe as we do, we say he is a crank, and that settles it. I mean, it does nowadays, because now we can’t burn him.
—Mark Twain
Posted: 08 February 2015 09:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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4thNephite
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When I was a kid they used to line up all the children on the stage every Fast Sunday and we would bear our "testimonies" in turn. I wish I had video of it because it would seem pretty creepy to me now.
However, once I got to be a teenager I never bore my testimony again since I didn't feel comfortable saying that I "knew" the church was true (since I didn't). I believed it, but I didn't know it.
As a senior in high school approaching graduation I heard that during the last week of seminary it was customary to have all the seniors bear their testimonies. The thought of being put on the spot in front of all my classmates and asked to bear a testimony was horrifying. So much so, that I skipped school to avoid it. In fact, since I didn't know which day it was going to happen I didn't go to my seminary class the entire last week of school (not sure how I got away with that!).
Even though I remained TBM until age 36, I never did bear my testimony. It was a source of guilt and at times I felt great pressure to do it, but I just was not comfortable saying I knew something I didn't. And all this bullshit about a testimony being "gained on your feet bearing it" really pissed me off.
After discovering the truth I was so glad I never caved to the pressure and completely sold out.
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
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LGBT announcement and playing the victim
Posted: 02 February 2015 04:08 PM [ Ignore ]
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Gypsy Soul
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So the more I keep thinking about this LGBT stuff, I just have this gnawing sense that the church has been doing this 'we are the REAL' victims here thing forever.
But I don't know my history as well as some of you.
I'm thinking about stuff like the danites and burning down the printing press and polygamy and Joes treasure hunting. In each of those cases, wasn't there this sort of argument that these things weren't wrong, but that the church was simply being persecuted?
Poor baby church ;)
Anyway I'd be interested in hearing examples and any accompanying citations.
Thoughts?
Posted: 02 February 2015 08:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Here's one: The extermination speech.
Yeah, speech; not the famous extermination order over the signature of Gov. Boggs.
On July 4, 1838, Sidney Rigdon, well known for being JS's spokesman, gave a rousing speech in which he mentioned that if the enemies of the saints came against them, the saints out hunt them down and exterminate them. Sidney had given a previous speech, which was not preserved, about a month earlier, called the Salt Sermon, that urged the 'purification' of the saints, and sought to push for the removal of dissident and/or apostate elements. The Salt Sermon was credited with being the boost that the more bold saints needed to form the Danites.
JS apparently thought so highly of the extermination speech that he had it published in the saint's newspaper, which of course further inflammed the native Missourians. And there is reason to believe that it helped set the stage for the Mormon War and Order 44, the extermination order.
For citations, just Google "Sidney Rigdon extermination speech"
When you do, you'll see some BYU citations. I read one of them and I know you'll find this hard to believe, but while it mentions the speech, it does not mention that Rigdon used the word 'extermination' in that speech. The tenor of the BYU article is to make Rigdon look like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth.
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Posted: 03 February 2015 02:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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MishMagnet
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I have an LDS cousin posting lots of links on this lately.
From what I read it seemed like - ooh, look how tolerant we are of the gays. We're so tolerant. We just love those gay people but are going to make sure we won't have to deal with them in a church setting. Nobody should tell a gay person they can't live in the apartment or that they can't work at this job. However we're going to still use a lot of money to make sure we're never going to have to let them in the temple.
Is this summary correct or am I being too sensitive?
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Posted: 03 February 2015 02:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Elder OldDog
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MishMagnet:
I have an LDS cousin posting lots of links on this lately.
From what I read it seemed like - ooh, look how tolerant we are of the gays. We're so tolerant. We just love those gay people but are going to make sure we won't have to deal with them in a church setting. Nobody should tell a gay person they can't live in the apartment or that they can't work at this job. However we're going to still use a lot of money to make sure we're never going to have to let them in the temple.
Is this summary correct or am I being too sensitive?
I would suggest that TSCC is trying to find a way to accomplish the goal you mentioned, WITHOUT having to spend a lot of money. Other than that....
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Posted: 04 February 2015 08:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
ckk
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I think the church still does this with polygamy. Like discriminating against LGBT people, it was ordered by god. So even though the rest of the world sees, and has always seen, polygamy as a major problem, it is justifiable to Mo's b/c god told JS to do it. JS approaching women and marrying young girls was a contributing factor in the fury that led to actions against him and the LDS community and those actions are still being portrayed in Sunday School lessons, church talks, etc as the super-righteous saints being picked on and persecuted for religious belief.
Posted: 04 February 2015 10:29 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Gypsy Soul
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MishMagnet:
I have an LDS cousin posting lots of links on this lately.
From what I read it seemed like - ooh, look how tolerant we are of the gays. We're so tolerant. We just love those gay people but are going to make sure we won't have to deal with them in a church setting. Nobody should tell a gay person they can't live in the apartment or that they can't work at this job. However we're going to still use a lot of money to make sure we're never going to have to let them in the temple.
Is this summary correct or am I being too sensitive?
I think that's right on. And I think the more progressive TBMs will take this as a sign that the church really is true and inclusive. But what's gross is they twist it and say, 'Yes we will extend this tolerance to gays but only if we, the real victims, get the same tolerance.'
It's a bastardization of real tolerance, real inclusiveness, and something I think they have a history of using.
Posted: 04 February 2015 10:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Gypsy Soul
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Elder OldDog:
Here's one: The extermination speech.
Yeah, speech; not the famous extermination order over the signature of Gov. Boggs.
On July 4, 1838, Sidney Rigdon, well known for being JS's spokesman, gave a rousing speech in which he mentioned that if the enemies of the saints came against them, the saints out hunt them down and exterminate them. Sidney had given a previous speech, which was not preserved, about a month earlier, called the Salt Sermon, that urged the 'purification' of the saints, and sought to push for the removal of dissident and/or apostate elements. The Salt Sermon was credited with being the boost that the more bold saints needed to form the Danites.
JS apparently thought so highly of the extermination speech that he had it published in the saint's newspaper, which of course further inflammed the native Missourians. And there is reason to believe that it helped set the stage for the Mormon War and Order 44, the extermination order.
For citations, just Google "Sidney Rigdon extermination speech"
When you do, you'll see some BYU citations. I read one of them and I know you'll find this hard to believe, but while it mentions the speech, it does not mention that Rigdon used the word 'extermination' in that speech. The tenor of the BYU article is to make Rigdon look like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth.
Whoa. I acutally didn't know about this one.
Posted: 04 February 2015 10:31 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Gypsy Soul
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ckk:
I think the church still does this with polygamy. Like discriminating against LGBT people, it was ordered by god. So even though the rest of the world sees, and has always seen, polygamy as a major problem, it is justifiable to Mo's b/c god told JS to do it. JS approaching women and marrying young girls was a contributing factor in the fury that led to actions against him and the LDS community and those actions are still being portrayed in Sunday School lessons, church talks, etc as the super-righteous saints being picked on and persecuted for religious belief.
Exactly dude! Exactly.
Posted: 04 February 2015 02:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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MishMagnet:
I have an LDS cousin posting lots of links on this lately.
From what I read it seemed like - ooh, look how tolerant we are of the gays. We're so tolerant. We just love those gay people but are going to make sure we won't have to deal with them in a church setting. Nobody should tell a gay person they can't live in the apartment or that they can't work at this job. However we're going to still use a lot of money to make sure we're never going to have to let them in the temple.
Is this summary correct or am I being too sensitive?
Actually MM, I think you're being too easy on them. They don't just want to keep gay mormons out of the temple, they (see Prop 8) want to dictate to non-mormons who they can and can't marry. They want other churches who embrace marriage equality to be denied the ability to perform legal marriages of their choosing.
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Posted: 05 February 2015 08:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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I certainly wasn't the first to raise this point, but I'm curious if the organization is taking a stance on LGBT issues because they have to - are there any legally binding - or potentially legally binding - behaviors which could force the organization to loose tax status or similar if they continued to discriminate against LGBT's?
I'm a little fuzzy with the details of something similar happening when the organization "revealed" (ha) that now blacks could . . . blah, blah, blah . . .
It doesn't seem like the organization has any "fix" if they will, someday, somehow, be required to accept all lifestyles. Their entire doctrine on this issue would send trains flying off the rails.
Like that's ever stopped the madness before . . . (ha) . . .
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Posted: 05 February 2015 12:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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Bold Wish:
I certainly wasn't the first to raise this point, but I'm curious if the organization is taking a stance on LGBT issues because they have to - are there any legally binding - or potentially legally binding - behaviors which could force the organization to loose tax status or similar if they continued to discriminate against LGBT's?
I'm a little fuzzy with the details of something similar happening when the organization "revealed" (ha) that now blacks could . . . blah, blah, blah . . .
It doesn't seem like the organization has any "fix" if they will, someday, somehow, be required to accept all lifestyles. Their entire doctrine on this issue would send trains flying off the rails.
Like that's ever stopped the madness before . . . (ha) . . .
I'm not an expert, but I don't think there are any legal hazards for them continuing the way they are.
I heard that BYU might have lost some federal dollars if things hadn't changed with the ban on blacks holding the priesthood. If true, I suppose something like that could eventually happen again, but churches have wide latitude in what they do and who they serve and I don't think the church itself would have been penalized.
My theory on the final blow for the priesthood ban, and eventually for LGBTs and women, is simply societal pressure.
As far as the fix... the entire doctrine once rested on polygamy. See BY's sermons in the Journal of Discourses and others. Now you would be ex'd for it. [Reminds me of "1984"..."We've Always Been at War with Eastasia"]
So they've done 180's before and can do them again.
I suspect it will be more gradual this time. You won't even notice.
They are already getting away with saying their stance on LGBTs has not changed. Like hell it hasn't. Nowhere near where they should be, but softened up quite a bit from the days when BKKKPacker's Little Factory tract implied that beating up a gay missionary was OK. They wouldn't dare talk like that now - societal pressure to the rescue once again.
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What was your experience with Temple Garments?
Posted: 02 February 2015 09:34 PM [ Ignore ]
sam2
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Greetings All. Please share you experience with the Temple Garments. Did you think that they where weird? Spiritual? Stupid? Did the garments interfere with your trips to the beach? Did you feel stupid for wearing them? Did you wear them at all? Did anyone ever ask? What did you do with them after you left the church?
My experience was that I thought the garment where a lousy idea. I mean really I'm supposed to wear stuff with markings because somehow that makes me right with Mormon Falsehood?
Honestly the shirts for men are very high quality, but in the end it seemed like another link in the bondage and psychological prison the church tries to incessantly impose.
I did feel sorry for the Mormon women. I mean what could one wear with what amounts to long johns? It may have worked in 1830, but not now.
So in essence I never really took the darn things seriously. But what the garments did teach me in the end is that Mormonism is all about what is on the outside of a person, not what is on the inside.
Posted: 03 February 2015 05:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
sak_pase
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sam:
Greetings All. Please share you experience with the Temple Garments. Did you think that they where weird? Spiritual? Stupid? Did the garments interfere with your trips to the beach? Did you feel stupid for wearing them? Did you wear them at all? Did anyone ever ask? What did you do with them after you left the church?
My experience was that I thought the garment where a lousy idea. I mean really I'm supposed to wear stuff with markings because somehow that makes me right with Mormon Falsehood?
Honestly the shirts for men are very high quality, but in the end it seemed like another link in the bondage and psychological prison the church tries to incessantly impose.
I did feel sorry for the Mormon women. I mean what could one wear with what amounts to long johns? It may have worked in 1830, but not now.
So in essence I never really took the darn things seriously. But what the garments did teach me in the end is that Mormonism is all about what is on the outside of a person, not what is on the inside.
For guys, they're not a terribly big deal. They're just lower-ish quality T-shirts and boxers. I did have trouble sleeping in them.
I would have strangled a box of kittens back in the day to get my wife to toss them. Thankfully, she found her way out of the church shortly after I did. It's a miracle the LDS church has the growth rate it does, as those things are quite possibly the unsexiest clothes imaginable, once you move past Iranian fashion and burlap sacks.
Posted: 03 February 2015 05:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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WinstonSmith
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I was always embarassed by them. They make it ridiclous for an endowed Mormon man to ever wear a t-shirt---I mean, come on---a t-shirt on top of a t-shirt Of course the American Mormon male tries to pull it off and wear plenty of t-shirts.
Then there is the intimacy with DW---talk about a mood killer---The garment has to be the least appealing, worst fasion mistake of all time.
As a man, I never felt mascilinity in the garment. I am not sure how a woman could feel sexy in the garment.
control---control---control---This is what the garment is really about. The garment controls what a person wears, when they wear it---I can't even have sex with my wife without having some interaction with the garment. It is messed up!
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Posted: 03 February 2015 06:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Hank
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Boxers were always uncomfortable to me, so when I went through the temple as a convert in my mid 20's, it took me a while to adjust to magic underwear (MU). The bottom was basically a boxer that went past my knees. In the summer, in order to cover the MU, I had to get big baggy shorts that made me look like a gansta in a rap song. All I needed was a sideways baseball cap and to learn a few gang signs to flash.
In the humid heat of Upstate NY, these things were hotter than hell...er I mean outer darkness...I think, um, nyway, my work was outside and laborious and I had to wear 2 tshirts!!! Then I learned about the mesh MU, which cooled things down substantially, but there's no "give" to them and they're sewn in such a way that unless I get XXlarge, they pull at my arm pits and I'm thrilled to take them off at the end of the work day. (Now my work is in an office with 95% Mormon, so I have to keep up some appearances).
Otherwise, I thought they were embarressing. Had to worry about keeping them covered from the public. And they're expensive! The church dropped the price a couple of years ago. I think they are now subsidizing MU so that people will keep wearing them.
Posted: 03 February 2015 06:50 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Sunbeep
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I didn't wear them until I was in the mission home and did my first session in the masonick lodge wanna be. At that time there were only one piece garments and I was happy to be able to dress like all the other kids in the dorm.
Sleeping in one piecers was problematic as they tend to bunch up and strangle body parts. Many times I would wake up and have to stand up and straighten things out. Bemburg was the best. When Nylon came out it was worse. Cotton was too hot and held moisture too much.
I thought that gawd was pleased with me for wearing them as a symbol of my loyality to him. Because they were expensive I repaired the holes for as long as possible. When they were a lost cause I carefully cut the markings out and into tiny pieces. Then I cut the rest of it up into indistinguishable pieces. It all went into the trash can after that.
I was delighted when two piecers were announced. The brief type was too restrictive so I wore the boxer type. I liked that I could scratch my belly at night.
I worked outside all of my career and wearing two tee shirts in the Summer was miserable. I didn't realise how miserable until later, after I had become inactive, I only wore one tee shirt. That, my Friend, was a real treat. It felt strange, but oh so liberating.
All of my life I have wanted to go shirtless. This is one of my "anger" issues with the morg. I was denied that pleasure. I wanted a nice tan. I wanted to feel the sun and air on bare skin. But, gawd wouldn't approve so I didn't. Bastard.
Hmmm, is gawd a bastard? Was his kid jebus?
I haven't worn the special underwear for years now. Sleeping is a whole nuther ball game. Being out in the Summer heat is more bearable.
To any Lurkers who might read this, I would say: When you are alone, go ahead, take em off for a while. You might like it and you will certainly feel what freedom is all about. If you feel guilty, take a shower and then take your time getting back into costume.
Posted: 03 February 2015 07:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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OldSoul
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No matter which pattern material I tried, somehow they always pinched my scrotum. I absolutely hated that. Worse though, I'm a fat man. An extra layer of clothing was cruel and unusual punishment for me. Taking them off and going to Hanes boxer briefs was just the best thing ever.
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Posted: 03 February 2015 07:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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I never had a problem with them. I really didn't like wearing them to the doctor's office or anywhere they could be seen, but other than that, I didn't find them to be too uncomfortable. Now that I go without, I still wear a t-shirt under my clothes more often than not, and I went with boxer-briefs. Cheap WalMart or Costco undies will do.
I hated the nylon mesh, the cool mesh was marginally better, but I usually went with the 100% cotton or the cotton-poly blend. When I played hockey, I'd wear the thermals.
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Posted: 03 February 2015 11:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Ohwhatodo
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Stories about “garmies”, a great topic.
At the time I got married (Salt Lake Temple), I was working in the desert in southern California. It was the Labor Day three-day weekend. I went from no garments to garments over that weekend and had a lot of explaining to do. I worked and roomed with a bunch of telephone lineman. It was hotter than whatever and we usually wore just Levis and T shirts so as not to be so damned hot! Believe me, it didn’t make a lot of sense to my coworkers that I would wear two shirts.
A couple of years later, I was attending summer school and the comment was made to/about me was that I was the only guy this fellow had ever seen that wore an undershirt under an undershirt.
On hot summer Sundays, the fellow who sat in front of me in SS, was not wearing a suit coat, which allowed me to see how ragged his garments were. There was a hole at least 8 to 10 inches from the seam and down his back. I could never figure out how his wife would let him leave the house looking like that.
I remember the “skid marks” on my undies. I never wore the two piece type
.
My favorite aunt, when I was standing or sitting next to her, would sneak her hand up my upper arm seemingly as a harmless gesture and then tug a bit on the garment sleeve, just to make sure you had them on.
I haven’t worn garments for several years and yet, quite often, it will still feel strange to put on a T shirt over bare skin or to take off a T shirt and not feel naked.
Last, but not least, I was always amused by people tugging to get their garments out of their “butt cracks”. I referred to it as a “ Mormon Salute”.
Posted: 03 February 2015 08:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
moronie-balonie
Sr. Member
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As a TBM I used to say that the definition of "opposition" was bra straps and garment tops. Talk about an uncomfortable mess. The bra strap would push the garment sleeve up near my neck and make them stick out of my shirt, and the bra strap would slip off the shoulder. It was a constant fight. I know that I wasn't the only one, because I often saw other LDS women "adjusting". I also had difficulty trying to get the garment fabric to not bunch up in the cup region. It would be humiliating to see yourself in the bathroom mirror and wonder how long you had gone looking like you had something besides your boob in your bra. I could never keep the cloth smooth.
Maternity garments/ garments during menstruation are so awful it doesn't even need mentioning.
The other problem I had with the bottoms is that the inseam was WAAAY to long for me. If I pulled them up so that the crotch was actually in my crotch area, then the elastic waist band was up under my boobs. If the elastic waist was actually where my waistline is, then the crotch was down around my knees.
Someone once told me that I could buy the "petite" size, and that would fix the problem. So off I went to the distribution center where I bought a few pairs to try. I got them, and as I was walking out to my car the old lady who had been in line behind me followed me to my car and chastized me for buying them. I got the whole lecture about how I should not try to buy a smaller size so that I could wear more revealing clothes etc. I was floored. A total stranger lecturing me on my undie choices. Horrid, horrid, horrid.
Posted: 04 February 2015 10:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
blueazure
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moronie-balonie:
As a TBM I used to say that the definition of "opposition" was bra straps and garment tops. Talk about an uncomfortable mess. The bra strap would push the garment sleeve up near my neck and make them stick out of my shirt, and the bra strap would slip off the shoulder. It was a constant fight. I know that I wasn't the only one, because I often saw other LDS women "adjusting". I also had difficulty trying to get the garment fabric to not bunch up in the cup region. It would be humiliating to see yourself in the bathroom mirror and wonder how long you had gone looking like you had something besides your boob in your bra. I could never keep the cloth smooth.
Maternity garments/ garments during menstruation are so awful it doesn't even need mentioning.
The other problem I had with the bottoms is that the inseam was WAAAY to long for me. If I pulled them up so that the crotch was actually in my crotch area, then the elastic waist band was up under my boobs. If the elastic waist was actually where my waistline is, then the crotch was down around my knees.
Someone once told me that I could buy the "petite" size, and that would fix the problem. So off I went to the distribution center where I bought a few pairs to try. I got them, and as I was walking out to my car the old lady who had been in line behind me followed me to my car and chastized me for buying them. I got the whole lecture about how I should not try to buy a smaller size so that I could wear more revealing clothes etc. I was floored. A total stranger lecturing me on my undie choices. Horrid, horrid, horrid.
I wore them for 10+ years and HATED EVERY SINGLE DAY OF IT. 7 of those years were in Arizona, and thick cotton tops (why oh why was there not a tissue paper cotton option? Why were they made for winters in Utah? Oh right, because everything is...)are INSANE. I was sooo damn hot when I first got them I actualyl got heat stroke. I'm not kidding.
[ ]. Absolutely. This was sooooo ridiculous.
[ ]. Yes, 100% yes. So many women I knew wore garments, then panties OVER THEM (consider how absurb and uncomfortable!) during menstration to keep the crotch (as mentioned later) of the garment actually at the anatomical crotch, so a menstrual pad was actually were it was supposed to be, otherwise you had period blood dripping down your thighs. DIsgusting.
[ ]. That was the first thing I noticed, this ridiculous crotch sooooo low. And yep, if you pull them up, the waist line is at boob level. So uncomfortable.
After several years (!!!), I ended up buying petite ones as well because there was just no way to make it even remotely work otherwise. And I'm 5'10", size 12, athletic build. I'm not petite. But I took the dirty looks and judgement.
AND THEY NEVER, EVER, EVER FIT. I hated the idea that some old white dude in Utah got to choose the right cut for MY BODY. And of course you aren't allowed to alter them. So they were tight in some places and bunchy in others. And THEY SLID AROUDN SO MUCH. I had to do the silky bottoms because the cotton ones would get stuck if I tried to put jeans on, and would roll hopelessly. But the silky ones were so slick, if they started sagging (b/c again, they never fit right), they'd pull my pants down with them! I exposed so much butt crack with those stupid things! Unbelievable!
And it was a nightmare finding any kind of dress or outfit to wear with them. Why the sleeves??? There are no marking there, they could have left them off. NO reason for that other than control. Made it impossible to buy normal dresses and tops (again, in Arizona, maybe if it's winter in Michigan you're in better shape). In addition to the modesty requirements, my garment tops always rolled at the bottom -- so I'd have this huge, very visible roll around my entire midsection, front and back. So even dresses that were long enough, had sleeves, etc looked absurb b/c it looked like I had a pool noodle around my waist. SO DUMB.
And yep, no woman ever feels or looks sexy in them. I think it is a way of disconnecting a person from their body, controlling absolutely every aspect. And it is soooo creepy to wear underwear that an old white dude tells you too! That was what broke it for me.
And I always felt different than others, always felt weird, always felt anxiety about them popping out (which they did always, they never stayed put. I'd have them falling out of arm holes, poking up out of neck holes, coming untucked and being visible under even long tees, riding up over tops of jeans... sliding down to show out from under even long skirts and dresses) I felt like a freak wearign them. Can't believe i did it for so long. NO MORE!!!!
Posted: 05 February 2015 07:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Never really enjoyed the garments.
When I took out my endowments, the first thing my "guide" did was ask for my regular underwear, I handed them over the stall, he put them in a plastic grocery bag and said "Well you never be wearing those again." He then threw them in the temple garbage can. That was one of my earliest WTF? moments.
On women, to the hetero male mind, they're a complete buzz kill. It makes your betrothed an instant granny in my mind and kills sexy time - pre, and post boom-boom.
Even when I was "in" I tried to find ways to only wear the top as a t-shirt and my boxer briefs below. Sort of a pre-apostate swirl cone of individualism.
When my wife stopped wearing garments for most of the time, it was one of the best days ever. Still is. Occassionaly she will armor up with the granny jammies if there's some meeting or her parents come by. The fact that "friends" and "family" and work associates do spot checks on underwear selections to validate worthiness is both creepy and sad.
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Posted: 05 February 2015 11:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Underwear check(how creepy can you get) -- is that more of a Utah thing? Haven't these people heard of personal space?!(reminds of people who think it is OK to touch/pat a pregnant mom's tummy, in public even!) My TBMDW has shared with me stories about temple workers finding garments in the trash(some didn't even wait to get home to discard them damn things). Another "sexual control" thing. How exhilarating it was to toss the g's in the trash and put on normal undies -- another physical break from the morg.
Posted: 05 February 2015 12:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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The underwear check extends far beyond Utah. My dad, born in Europe and raised in Southern Alberta (OK, that's almost Utah) patted me on the leg a few years ago and discovered that I was wearing Telestial skivvies. Good Lord, did I get the gears!
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Is religious freedom at risk? Today 11 AM RADIO WEST
Posted: 04 February 2015 07:22 AM [ Ignore ]
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Last week, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints made headlines by announcing its support of LGBT anti-discrimination laws. But leaders also expressed deep concern over religious liberty and called for laws to protect churches and individuals when acting “in accordance with their beliefs.” Wednesday, we’re gathering legal experts to answer questions at the heart of the Church’s statement: Is religious freedom at risk? Is there a conflict between anti-discrimination and religious liberty? And finally, is there a place for compromise?
Guests:
William Duncan, Marriage Law Foundation
Clifford Rosky, University of Utah's S.J. Quinney College of Law and Board Chair, Equality Utah
Robin Fretwell Wilson, College of Law, University of Illinois
Listen live on the net: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/religious-liberty-and-lgbt-rights
Program repeats at 7 PM, then available via podcast.
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Posted: 04 February 2015 08:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Will they be discussing Rastafari's' immunity to use their sacrament, ganja (cannabis)? That's been their religious tradition since the 1930s and it seems as though they should be equally free to exercise their religious freedom as the LDS is to discriminate?
Scientology is in the news just now with the premier of Alex Gibney's film Going Clear at the Sundance Film Festival and its anticipated airing on HBO. Are Oaks, et al, ready to defend Scientology's deiberately exposing their believers to asbestos contamination, depriving children of an education, working the believers indebted to the church to exhaustion at 40¢ an hour, and using brutal corporal punishment?
And, one supposes, the LDS defense of religious freedom must include the fundamentalist polygamists whose roots, we know, go back to Joseph Smith himself. Are they ready to create the rationale for Warren Jeff's appeal of his inprisionment? I hope they're thinking about what these legalized religious freedoms will mean for the future of D&C 132? They're not going to be able to duck that issue once they get this ball rolling.
Posted: 04 February 2015 08:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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If they believe that a pharmacist should be free not to dispense Plan B b/c it's against their religious beliefs or for an OB/GYN to refuse to perform an abortion, then is it okay for a physician who is a Jehovah's Witness to refuse to order a blood transfusion for a patient b/c it's against her beliefs?
Posted: 04 February 2015 05:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Where I live in Los Angeles there are people who are adherents of the Carribbean-influenced santeria religion. A central focus of their ritual and practice includes live animal sacrifice. Does the LDS want to be pointman for laws making way for animal sacrifices?
In the US female genital mutilation is illegal. It's still practiced in a clandestine way but if families can apply for a religious exemption it could happen to far more girls.
Posted: 05 February 2015 08:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Nice principles, but no thanks. As Bishop Desmond Tutu so eloquently stated: “I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.”
The US Supreme Court determined that the United States Constitution neither knows nor tolerates classes among its citizens. There is simply no preferential religiously based caste system in public accommodation civil rights law.
Moreover, in signing the Emancipation Proclamation, President Lincoln didn't look for a compromise. Instead, he violated Southern Catholic Monasteries religious liberty when he wisely determined they could not longer retain ownership of their slaves, despite what the Bible said.
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The Mormon Church is....?
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Posted: 05 February 2015 08:55 AM [ Ignore ]
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Barf.
I have a family member spreading this Facebook gem:
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/major-new-study-of-religion-has-much-to-say-about-mormons
More BS to keep their heads in the sand. The article talks about how the LDS church, among other religions, is a benefit to our society. They list a handful of points, but this article is actually a pretty sad argument. Here are a few laughable 'benefits' of being a Mormon:
Mormons are among the most devout religious groups in the country.
The American Grace study assessed a composite measure of “religiosity” that measured individuals’ levels of religious observance, the strength of their religious convictions about God and their faith, and the degree to which they feel their religion is personally important. As a group, Mormons registered a high level of “religiosity” (American Grace, 23-24).
[Thank goodness we have so much religiosity coming from the Mormons. It would be a shame if the majority of the psychological damage I have experienced in my life had never happened at the hands of some of the most devout and religious people in this country]
Mormons are among those most likely to keep their childhood faith as adults.
In an age of American religion where people often depart from the religion of their upbringing and where switching between religions is becoming more common, the study indicates that individuals raised as Latter-day Saints are among those most likely to keep their faith (137-138).
[Thank goodness for this, too. We all know how much carrying on the traditions of our fathers has benefited this country. Damn, if we had more of this unquestioning belief into adulthood, we wouldn't have had to deal with those pesky civil rights battles throughout our history!]
Mormons are unusually giving.
Among the study’s larger conclusions is the fact that, in general, religion in America contributes to civic virtue, altruism, and good neighborliness. Study data, meanwhile, indicate that collectively Mormons are among the most charitable of Americans with their means and time, both in religious and nonreligious causes (452).
[Too bad the same can't be said for LDS inc. And too bad the majority of their giving of time, money, and effort is to LDS inc itself, instead of others. Imagine if the church instead expected tithing to be every member paying 10% of their income to a charitable cause of their choice?]
Mormons are relatively friendly to other religious groups.
The study also reports that Mormons are among those most friendly toward those of other faiths. Relatively speaking, the United States has not been the scene of deep religious conflicts; it is and has been a place of remarkable religious tolerance and pluralism. Nevertheless, the study’s authors point out that Americans are divided by religion, and hence, American society is susceptible to religious discord. Indeed, American religious (and nonreligious) groups have various feelings about one another. While data suggest that Mormons are among those viewed least positively by many American religious groups, they themselves hold relatively positive views toward members of other faiths, including those outside of Christianity (505-508).
[Yes, Mormons are highly accomplished at smiling at you while feeling pity for your soul. No religion like Mormonism has the knack for telling you even the worst of you will live in paradise, and yet still make you feel like living in that paradise is going to be a royal sh** hole for the losers.]
Mormons are among the most likely to believe that one true religion exists, but also that those outside their faith can attain salvation or reach “heaven.”
[Condescension at its finest. This point brings up another point, too, albeit a tangent. According to Mormon doctrine, anyone who is sealed is guaranteed exaltation in the highest kingdom. D&C says that the worst that will happen is that you will be destroyed while in the flesh, but then have the full meal deal after you die. According to this doctrine, shouldn't all Mormons just retire after they are sealed? Take your chances with being destroyed in the flesh? Any of you yet paid the price of leprosy or meteors hitting your house since leave the church?]
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Posted: 05 February 2015 09:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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thalmar:
Barf.
I have a family member spreading this Facebook gem:
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/major-new-study-of-religion-has-much-to-say-about-mormons
More BS to keep their heads in the sand. The article talks about how the LDS church, among other religions, is a benefit to our society. They list a handful of points, but this article is actually a pretty sad argument. Here are a few laughable 'benefits' of being a Mormon:
Mormons are among the most devout religious groups in the country.
The American Grace study assessed a composite measure of “religiosity” that measured individuals’ levels of religious observance, the strength of their religious convictions about God and their faith, and the degree to which they feel their religion is personally important. As a group, Mormons registered a high level of “religiosity” (American Grace, 23-24).
[Thank goodness we have so much religiosity coming from the Mormons. It would be a shame if the majority of the psychological damage I have experienced in my life had never happened at the hands of some of the most devout and religious people in this country]
They have to be devout! If they aren't, their parents and friends berate them, they can't go to family weddings, and other mormons take it upon themselves to shepherd the "struggling" soul back into the fold.
Mormons are among those most likely to keep their childhood faith as adults.
In an age of American religion where people often depart from the religion of their upbringing and where switching between religions is becoming more common, the study indicates that individuals raised as Latter-day Saints are among those most likely to keep their faith (137-138).
[Thank goodness for this, too. We all know how much carrying on the traditions of our fathers has benefited this country. Damn, if we had more of this unquestioning belief into adulthood, we wouldn't have had to deal with those pesky civil rights battles throughout our history!]
Again, they don't have much choice in the matter. If they don't, they risk losing family relations, or at least breaking the "tender hearts" of their mothers.
Mormons are unusually giving.
Among the study’s larger conclusions is the fact that, in general, religion in America contributes to civic virtue, altruism, and good neighborliness. Study data, meanwhile, indicate that collectively Mormons are among the most charitable of Americans with their means and time, both in religious and nonreligious causes (452).
[Too bad the same can't be said for LDS inc. And too bad the majority of their giving of time, money, and effort is to LDS inc itself, instead of others. Imagine if the church instead expected tithing to be every member paying 10% of their income to a charitable cause of their choice?]
Tithing. Don't pay that, and you can't be a good mormon. You can't have a "good" calling. You can't go to the temple. Other people will judge you, thinking you've got a porn problem which keeps you out of the temple. If the government stopped allowing tithing as a charitable donation, mormon charity would drop through the floor.
Mormons are relatively friendly to other religious groups.
The study also reports that Mormons are among those most friendly toward those of other faiths. Relatively speaking, the United States has not been the scene of deep religious conflicts; it is and has been a place of remarkable religious tolerance and pluralism. Nevertheless, the study’s authors point out that Americans are divided by religion, and hence, American society is susceptible to religious discord. Indeed, American religious (and nonreligious) groups have various feelings about one another. While data suggest that Mormons are among those viewed least positively by many American religious groups, they themselves hold relatively positive views toward members of other faiths, including those outside of Christianity (505-508).
[Yes, Mormons are highly accomplished at smiling at you while feeling pity for your soul. No religion like Mormonism has the knack for telling you even the worst of you will live in paradise, and yet still make you feel like living in that paradise is going to be a royal sh** hole for the losers.]
The mormon church is absolutely desparate to be seen in the best light by the population at large. Gone is the rhetoric of my childhood, when mormons wore the "peculiar people" label as a badge of honor. Now it's "Meet the mormons" and the "I'm a mormon" video clips. The church will glom onto the slightest bit of celebrity of one of their own, and exploit it ad nauseam.
Mormons are among the most likely to believe that one true religion exists, but also that those outside their faith can attain salvation or reach “heaven.”
[Condescension at its finest. This point brings up another point, too, albeit a tangent. According to Mormon doctrine, anyone who is sealed is guaranteed exaltation in the highest kingdom. D&C says that the worst that will happen is that you will be destroyed while in the flesh, but then have the full meal deal after you die. According to this doctrine, shouldn't all Mormons just retire after they are sealed? Take your chances with being destroyed in the flesh? Any of you yet paid the price of leprosy or meteors hitting your house since leave the church?]
Bullshit. Those outside the faith CANNOT be saved, unless they either accept mormonism and are baptized, or are dead dunked and have their "temple work" done for them. I pointed this out to my wife's bishop and he denied it, so I asked him why are there temples, if they can be saved without the saving ordinances? He had no answer.
God, what hubris. I added my own comments in red.
One of the common feelings expressed on this board is that people feel "stuck" in the church. They no longer believe, but fear they will lose their family and friends if they speak out. Many people here have lost family.
What a fukking joke the church is. A fukking, tragic, joke. It pulls families APART. The big 15 absolutely KNOW this, but they do not address it from the pulpit. Christ, now I'm pissed off.
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Posted: 05 February 2015 11:09 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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MU, thanks for your red-text explanations. I read the article, too, and thought that it all sounded technically accurate but missing the larger picture. In mental health research there is usually a small positive benefit to religious practice, although there are also some downsides to it.
(This is based on my recollections from graduate school days, so bear with me...) There are two most salient factors in the salubrious effects of religion. The more potent one is having a personal relationship with a higher power. (This is something that the 12-Step recovery programs have going for them.) The second factor is feeling like one is part of a congregation. I think Mormons can get both of these, although both are contingent on compliance.
Not too surprising when you step back and look at it: it turns out that people derive benefit from (1) feeling loved and (2) belonging.
Anyway, yes, the LDS church has some positives and we can learn from them. But the tone of the article grossly overstates, I believe, the net effect of being Mormon.
Posted: 05 February 2015 12:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Mormons are doing most of these things, but why? Is it because through Christ they have learned the importance of showing love to others because it's the right thing to do? Or ar they doing it for public appearances/to promote the church/missionary work (after all, every member is a missionary) and because they are simply brainwashed into it/internal pressures to keep appearances in fornt of other members?
I would argue that for most, it's the latter, and those are the wrong reasons to show "Christ like love". Being programmed to act nice on behalf of the church is not an impressive, desirable trait for most...
Posted: 05 February 2015 01:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Did they have the Muslim religion in here? Because they would rank pretty danged close to mormonism. When you own people's minds and their wills--you get what you want because as a church/religion/cult--you own those people. Not worth it! And they can keep their blessings to themselves--thank you! There is not a county on earth that needs them. They have done a horrible job at running a religion--they can keep the blessings they bring the hell to themselves!
That reminds me, my semi-TBM minded daughter said, "Damned" to me on the phone today! First time! I am so proud of her! Holy cow--never thought I would say something like this! So much better than her being brainwashed by a cult. Way more normal. I will take progress of any kind.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 05 February 2015 08:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Patriotism and religiousity stink!
Or I guess actually I should speak more precisely. Patriotism and religiosity are neutral. Patriotism is good if you live in a righteous country and it is doing good things. Patriotism is bad if you live in a wicked country doing bad things. I think religions are all false, and falseness is bad, but if I set that personal belief of mine aside and try to role-play as an average person, then I could say that it is good to be religious if your religion leads you to do good, and it is bad to be religious if your religion leads you to do wrong.
Examples of patriotism being bad:
Patriotic Nazis conquering Europe and engaging in genocide.
Patriotic Americans fighting foreign wars of aggression in futile search for weapons of mass destruction that no longer exist, and violating the Geneva Convention by mistreating prisoners of war at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay.
Examples of religiosity being bad:
Devout Muslims flying airplanes into tall buildings full of civilians.
Devout Christians trying to conquer Jerusalem because it is such a cool tourist attraction for pilgrims, burning witches because Christian understanding of science stunk at that time, and killing or expelling Jews because they think Jesus was just a rabbi and not a demigod.
Posted: 05 February 2015 09:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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I started thinking about all the 'evil' things TSCC does or has done, but it was way too depressing.
And remember, no apologies!!
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Posted: 06 February 2015 05:49 AM [ Ignore ]
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Posted: 04 February 2015 04:30 PM [ Ignore ]
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This is a story about my life and my Mormon family and the problems I am still facing today.
Read the attachment for the whole story.
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Posted: 05 February 2015 02:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Mister Smith, Welcome to our community. I read your story. Thank you for sharing it here.
I don't know what to say to encourage you but I believe you need to find some reason to hope for a better future. Sorry you had such a difficult start in life with all the family problems.
Salvage anything you can that is positive from your past and move on. One foot in front of the other towards improving your life along with personal responsibility. Hope you will continue to correspond here and let us know how you and your brother are doing.
Felix
Posted: 06 February 2015 12:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Mister Smith,
No doubt you are in a tough situation. If I were you I would look for a lawyer who specializes in Social Security Disability. Many of them offer free consultations. Present them with your situation and see what they have to say. Perhaps you are eligible? If you have a case, many of these lawyers will do all the work such as filling out the forms and gathering the required information.
I hope this helps. I wish you the best.
‹‹ Did Jesus use a type of "E-Ching" to give people "good" fortunes? Gospel of Lots of Mary says, probably. Vigil at Dehlin’s ex-ing this Sunday ››
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The Mormon Church is....?
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date
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TBM Wife agreed to read whatever I email her about the church!
Posted: 05 February 2015 01:30 PM [ Ignore ]
Hank
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Any suggestions what I should sent her way? Obviously I have my own ideas, but many minds are better than one. The more it comes from church material/website, the better (she's more likely to believe it).
Posted: 05 February 2015 02:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Curious NeverMo
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Good for you! I know you've been patient a really long time waiting for this day.
I don't really know the literature but I bet someone will know the thing that will leave her wanting to know more.
Posted: 05 February 2015 03:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Start with the essays. Maybe link the Mormonthink articles on each essay as well.
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Offer me that deathless death
Good God, let me give you my life- Take Me To Church, Hozier
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 05 February 2015 03:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
maynardg
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Mormonthink.com is a favorite as is The Truth Is Restored Again.com, the Gentle Awakening.
Posted: 05 February 2015 05:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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incawhite
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These videos can give her an idea of the Fraud.
http://youtu.be/tth-vF_a2F0
Also she needs to understand the mind control that is happening inside a religious organization.
http://youtu.be/VUsOHsZIiA4
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“If Jesus came back and saw what was being done in his name, he’d never stop throwing up.”
Posted: 05 February 2015 07:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Tessa
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Lamanite DNA falling apart as it contains absolutely zero Hebrew DNA....before the 15th Century invasion of the Spanish. http://mormonscripturestudies.com/bomor/twm/lamgen.asp http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 05 February 2015 07:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Let me second the suggestion about the essays. They're from LDS.org, won't feel attacking, and will put some cred points on your account. If there's a topic that really matters to her, make sure that it's second or third on the list.
What a sweet turn of events!
Posted: 05 February 2015 09:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Hank:
Any suggestions what I should sent her way? Obviously I have my own ideas, but many minds are better than one. The more it comes from church material/website, the better (she's more likely to believe it).
Wonderful News! You are smart to choose church stuff first. What a great break for both of you!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 06 February 2015 04:02 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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crazy cat lady
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http://youtu.be/xfkHJmHYn6M
She might not be ready for this video yet, but it really summarizes the crazy.
Posted: 06 February 2015 04:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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OldSoul
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I would start with this:
When someone believes something, information contrary to that belief causes a fight or flight reaction some people refer to as "cognative dissonance." It's uncomfortable and confronting. Most people outright reject this new information. I'm hoping you'll keep an open mind and try to examine the new information from all directions. You are free to draw your own conclusions, but try to stick through this till you have as much information as possible.
You can then link a few articles on cognative dissonance and skepticism. There's so much good stuff out there, but you might want to pick something that would best appeal to your wife.
Next ask her to:
Try to get rid of the notion that the fear and discomfort she'll certainly feel is unique to her beliefs and religion being challenged. Many religions have challengers and you can see the same dynamic of push and pull between the critics and the defenders that you will find with Mormonism. So often Mormons are convinced their experience with religion is unique. It's really not.
Ask her to remember what she thinks about the church now and compare it to what she thinks about it after examining the information. Her notion of what the church is will change by the end. She may still believe it's true, and that's fine, but she should at least perform the thought experiment of having herself imagine trying to explain her new understanding of the church to her past self.
This is a process. It's hard on the believer. Anything you can do to lend perspective and give stability and a soft place to land will help. And you should start with the position that you will respect her beliefs, and hope that she can respect yours. Express your gratitude that she's willing to hear your side. If she doesn't change her position that's fine. You can hope she does, but be prepared to be working out a way to live together if she doesn't.
Good luck.
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Posted: 06 February 2015 07:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Swearing Elder
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Humor is often the best medicine! Show her some of the Brother Jake videos:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0u7ZMWqkr7cKD_rvEXZUuQ/feed
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Palmetto PostMormons Chapter Page | Swearing Elders Blog
Posted: 06 February 2015 11:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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crazy cat lady
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Swearing Elder:
Humor is often the best medicine! Show her some of the Brother Jake videos:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0u7ZMWqkr7cKD_rvEXZUuQ/feed
I had never Brother Jake videos. I just binged watch them. He does a fantastic satire of Mormonism. He really shows just how crazy it all is.
Posted: 08 February 2015 12:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
Curious NeverMo
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Still considering this issue? Maybe this would not be so confrontational that she'd reject the idea while raising some interest in what the roles of prophets should be and whether or not they have an obligation to be clear about what is prophesy and what is opinion.
‹‹ The Church Blesses our Divine Country :) :) :) What Was Your Experience With Mormon "Testemony"? ››
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The Mormon Church is….?
Posted: 07 February 2015 03:54 PM [ Ignore ]
sam2
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Greetings All.
I want to know how you would answer the question by a stranger, "What is Mormon Church?" or "What does the Mormon Church stand for?"
I think that the Mormon Church is organized crime pure and simple. Based upon the works of fiction written by a con man and pervert.
Posted: 07 February 2015 06:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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(1) The LDS church is an organized crime cult that steals a person's mind, life, money relationships and takes the loyalty of a person's family for itself.
(2) The largest, longest running and most dangerous fraud that has ever been perpetuated upon the American Continent.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 07 February 2015 08:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Tessa
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It's a front for "Big Business"....and hides the NSA under it's skirts. It's Vatican West.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 07 February 2015 09:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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incawhite
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1. The LDS church is an organization full of deceived people, behaving like Don Quijote de la mancha.
2. An enterprise based in lies created by a ruthless gold digger, that preserves the founder's behavior with the current leaders, preaching false doctrine with promises that steals a person's mind, life, and money.
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“If Jesus came back and saw what was being done in his name, he’d never stop throwing up.”
Posted: 08 February 2015 09:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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wesmanlv
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a religious cult that is really a multi-billion dollar real estate conglomarate posing as a church (a church they think is highly admired and respected)
Posted: 08 February 2015 07:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Heretic
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The Mormon Church is... another name for the Gadianton Robbers.
Posted: 08 February 2015 08:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Heretic:
The Mormon Church is... another name for the Gadianton Robbers.
Don't you think Joseph Smith must have had a powerful sense of humor? Many of the bad things he taught against--were the very things he was gulity of. I am guessing he may have had a lot of good laughs at what he could make people believe.
The church has always preached goodness while being corrupt. The organization was built upon Lies, deceipt, stealing by embezzelment, immoral sex that hurt others (young girls & other men's wives), not caring about the poor, not caring that they tear families apart or cause suicides or deaths in other ways--to name a few. Except for the sex, the leaders today are guilty of the same corruptness. An evil combination fits them to a "T." I am thinking JS knew they were just that.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
‹‹ JD doubles down with Peggy Fletcher Stack and the LDS Newsroom We have always been at war with EastAsia! And of course Lehi found America inhabited!! ››
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What Was Your Experience With Mormon "Testemony"?
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Vigil at Dehlin's ex-ing this Sunday
by Curious NeverMo
The Vatican opens public bathrooms for Rome's homeless
by huehuetenango
The Mormon Church is....?
by Strong Free & Thankful
We have always been at war with EastAsia! And of course Lehi found America inhabited!!
by Elder OldDog
How do I not be the bad guy? Can I?
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TBM Wife agreed to read whatever I email her about the church!
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Would John Dehlin and Kate Kelly's Supporters Withhold Their Tithing?
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John Dehlin: Two faced liar OR is He the Martin Luther of Post-Mormonism?
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Funny Jeesis music video
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The Onion weighs in on the subject of blessings
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JD doubles down with Peggy Fletcher Stack and the LDS Newsroom
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Just wondering what people follow after leaving the church
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Expressing myself to the tune "We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet"
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My Story leaving my Mormon Family.
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Just had to share this video. "I am a Formon."
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Let Monson know before he dies!
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What Was Your Experience With Mormon "Testemony"?
by 4thNephite
Vigil at Dehlin's ex-ing this Sunday
by Curious NeverMo
The Vatican opens public bathrooms for Rome's homeless
by huehuetenango
The Mormon Church is....?
by Strong Free & Thankful
We have always been at war with EastAsia! And of course Lehi found America inhabited!!
by Elder OldDog
How do I not be the bad guy? Can I?
by ff42
TBM Wife agreed to read whatever I email her about the church!
by Curious NeverMo
Would John Dehlin and Kate Kelly's Supporters Withhold Their Tithing?
by Nephi
John Dehlin: Two faced liar OR is He the Martin Luther of Post-Mormonism?
by Tessa
Funny Jeesis music video
by Morethanmo
The Onion weighs in on the subject of blessings
by Morethanmo
JD doubles down with Peggy Fletcher Stack and the LDS Newsroom
by Curious NeverMo
Just wondering what people follow after leaving the church
by Curious NeverMo
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, Feb. 8th, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
Expressing myself to the tune "We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet"
by Celestial Wedgie
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by Celestial Wedgie
Good Morning -- It's Friday!!
by Celestial Wedgie
My Story leaving my Mormon Family.
by son of perdition
Just had to share this video. "I am a Formon."
by Bold Wish
Let Monson know before he dies!
by incawhite
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewforum/5/
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