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The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
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Posted on December 2, 2015
There is a war going on among apostates, but it is no reason for gloating by Jehovah's Witnesses
There is a war going on among apostates, but it is no reason for gloating by Jehovah’s Witnesses
At the beginning of October I produced and participated in a video featuring 62 Jehovah’s Witness apostates from all over the world. The video has so far attracted more than 24,000 views.
Our message to believing JWs was simple: apostates are NOT your enemies. Apostates are simply JWs who have summoned the bravery to subject their cherished beliefs to objective scrutiny and logic, based on which they have decided to reject irrational, corrosive teachings and practices, and start afresh.
As should by now be obvious, I am (and always will be) a proud apostate. I am immensely relieved to have discovered, while still relatively young, that the beliefs passed on to me by my parents were false. I also derive great pleasure and personal satisfaction from being involved in raising awareness of the harm caused by cults such as Watchtower through my activism work.
But being a JW apostate does not mean I support and endorse the behavior, methods and agenda of ALL other JW apostates. Just because I come from a cult in which “unity” of thought and action is demanded, this does not oblige me to nurture similar “unity” to some mirror organization or community.
For example, a year ago I took the decision to distance myself from apostates who engage in aggressive forms of activism after I noticed an increase in videos being shared on Facebook showing certain individuals harassing Jehovah’s Witnesses on the street and at their places of worship.
Even though I didn’t name any names, or target anyone in particular, by merely stating the obvious on this issue (i.e. aggressive confrontation of cult victims is not conducive to their rehabilitation) I was subjected to a barrage of abuse and slander culminating in my being labelled a sexual predator, a stalker, a cyber bully, a cult leader and a wife beater by two individuals in particular – Mike and Kim Brooks, of New Mexico.
Since then, Mike and Kim, while insisting that I refrain from any criticism of them, seem to have set up camp as “Cedars Haters HQ.” Over the past 12 months they made two more videos with me as the subject, and have attracted a small army of similarly-fixated, mostly-Christian evangelical “haters” from across the ex-JW community.
In one of these videos, Mike Brooks threatened me with physical violence if I ever set foot in New Mexico. The “crime” that warranted a violent attack on me was my failure to apologize to another person for something within an arbitrarily-defined time period.
In the second video, both Mike and Kim condemned me for giving away an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience to my YouTube subscribers. Though the pair bemoaned the breach of copyright represented by my unauthorized copies, which were printed by a friend, both seemed oblivious to the fact that copyright laws are equally applicable to digital PDF copies, such as the PDF copy Kim Brooks admitted to having in the same video (and which was even being distributed on their website when their video was uploaded).*
A ‘community’ divided
Since first getting involved in activism work in 2011 I have had to deal with an unrelenting tide of criticism from fellow ex-JWs. Even my first attempts at setting up a survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which led to this website being launched, attracted controversy. Mike and Kim’s crusade against me, which is so clearly driven by deep resentment of my atheist views, is just the latest in a long line of aggravation I have become accustomed to dealing with.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that the majority of criticism of my work comes, not from Watchtower, but from my fellow ex-JWs. This, in my view, underscores just how damaging and corrosive the Watchtower cult is. Those who leave can be riddled with so much resentment and frustration that many can’t help but re-direct it at their fellow ex-members, who in their troubled minds become more worthy of criticism than Watchtower itself.
At times these “haters” get me down. I am, after all, only human and susceptible to sustained threats and abuse directed at me and my family. At other times I am able to shrug off the negativity and press on with my work. But with this latest “copyright” fiasco I feel something has changed, which is why I have decided to write this article. I assume my readers and YouTube subscribers value my treating them like adults and telling it like it is, and by pointing out the elephant in the room I will hopefully prepare you all for what lies ahead.
I have long understood that the so-called ex-JW “community” (I prefer to call it a movement) is composed of factions. You might be unaware of these factions if your only interaction with ex-JWs is brief forays on social media or forums. But when you deal with ex-JWs on a day-to-day basis as I do, the factions are all too obvious, and encompass two principle areas.
The Activism Spectrum
The first area, or spectrum, concerns activism. The following graphic gives you a rough sketch of the various mindsets…
activism-spectrum2At one end of the spectrum you have aggressive activists, who advocate confronting JWs on the street and in kingdom halls. A common defense of aggressive activism is: “All forms of activism are equally good, and different forms of activism work on different kinds of people.” My reply to this argument is that it overlooks how complex and deeply-entrenched cult indoctrination can be, and the delicacy and sensitivity required in disentangling someone from it.
Saying that all forms of activism are equally good is like saying all forms of dentistry are equally good. Just as a bad dentist can end up doing more harm than good, so can an activist who believes in storming into kingdom halls and berating cult victims as a means of helping them.
On the opposite end of the activism scale you have anti-activists, including JW apologists for Watchtower (but also some apostates) who oppose any attempts to wake up JWs from their indoctrination. You may consider it unthinkable to have such a mindset, but I have an awakened uncle who embraces it unashamedly. The attitude of awakened JWs who are against activism can be summed up as: “Thanks to the work of activists I’m now awake, but waking anyone else up through activism is distasteful. All the Witnesses still inside can fend for themselves.”
“Strategic activists” are those who take full advantage of online resources, including blogs and social media, to make it as easy as possible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to awaken without resorting to harassment or confrontation. You don’t need to have a blog or YouTube channel to be a strategic activist. You can get involved in strategic activism simply by supporting and promoting other strategic activists, or by sharing links to important articles or videos that may prove helpful in prompting JWs to start thinking for themselves.
“Armchair activists” is my description for usually-anonymous ex-JWs who for various reasons don’t do any activism themselves, but who offer guidance on how they would do it from the sidelines. Armchair activists can exert either a positive or negative influence. Their guidance ranges from constructive criticism and helpful advice to fierce attacks on the methods, motives and character of those actually involved in activism. There is at least one forum I can think of where armchair activists seem to be in the majority.
Non-activists are those, like my wife and many other friends of mine, who are simply grateful to have escaped Watchtower with their wits intact. They neither criticize activism nor involve themselves in it – they just dust themselves down and get on with their lives.
The Belief Spectrum
The second area of “factions,” and perhaps the area that effects me the most personally, is that of belief.
And it is much simpler to explain.
evangelical-atheist
Over the last four years, many will have noticed the tone of my articles and videos follow my journey from skeptical Christian, to agnostic, to agnostic atheist. Throughout this journey I have always striven to be as respectful towards believers as possible.
I understand that some people need religion in their lives, and though I find it both obsolete and in most cases repulsive, I personally cannot envision a world where everyone is atheist and nobody is religious. I also acknowledge that the majority of JWs who find themselves on this website will recoil if they feel coerced to abandon belief in God altogether.
It is for these reasons that JWsurvey has, and always will have, a “religious neutrality” policy displayed in our comments section, whereby it is prohibited to evangelize either religion OR atheism on these pages (i.e. “This belief system works for me – and everyone else had better embrace it too!”).
But, though I try to be as respectful and accommodating as possible towards believers, there is an evangelical Christian faction within the ex-JW movement, and it does not play by the same rules.
While some Christians jumped to my defense over last year’s aggressive activism debacle, rightly acknowledging that harassing cult victims is anything but loving and Christlike, they were worryingly few in number. Aggressive activism and evangelical Christianity, it seems, usually go hand in hand.
Worse still, though I hate that this is so, as of this moment I can probably count on one hand the number of friends I have who are both Christian and genuinely respectful of my lack of belief, including my right to criticize religion on my YouTube channel.
And I can understand the reason for this.
Though there are liberal Christians out there who embrace a “live and let live” approach, and who aren’t remotely concerned as to whether others around them embrace their beliefs or not, the simple truth is: evangelism is a part of Christianity. It is mandated for Christians by Jesus himself. (Matthew 28:19)
Christians who take their faith seriously are supposed to think that anyone who doesn’t share their belief in Jesus as savior has slightly (or radically) bleaker future prospects than they do. In that context, promoting one’s beliefs when the opportunity presents itself, such as when others are discussing religion on a website or forum, is only to be expected. In their minds, they are doing us all a favor.
But rather than its members simply extolling their own understanding of God and his requirements for humans, for some time now the evangelical Christian faction has adopted a troubling new approach: stamping out the fledgling ex-JW atheist faction wherever it manifests itself.
Again, I only need to dip into the way my mind was calibrated as a JW, and the motivation behind this offensive by the evangelical wing is as clear as day.
As a JW, apostates were not just slightly-misguided fellow creatures who were pitied but still worthy of respect. They were the enemy. The gloves were off. Apostates were agents of Satan himself who were to be, not just avoided at all costs, but resisted and repudiated if they made incursions into God’s organization and its all-important kingdom work.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the same righteous indignation fuels the hate-strewn rants of the likes of the Brooks’ and Alun Williams (another even more eccentric would-be spiritual mentor), to name only a few. They will not share the same space with unbelievers. They can barely tolerate the fact that unbelievers exist, but the moment an ex-JW unbeliever such as myself opens his mouth and criticizes their cherished beliefs on a suitably well-subscribed YouTube channel, this constitutes an act of war. I become “fair game” (to coin a Scientology expression), and any tactics no matter how underhanded may be brought to bear.
No perceived flaw or slip-up is too trivial to warrant an avalanche of criticism. Even giving away an unauthorized copy of a book is to be treated with horror and disgust, and responded to with character assassinations of the most severe kind – even if the one doing the criticizing is guilty of the same indiscretion.
By this point you are probably thinking: “Ok, I get it. There is an evangelical faction in the exJW community, and it has its knives sharpened for anyone like you who espouses atheism. But what is different? How has anything changed?”
The Christian evangelical faction has, to my knowledge, always been mostly populated by demonstrably-eccentric conspiracy theorists, obsessed with freemasonry, subliminal images and the illuminati, who are almost a parody of themselves. But, like Donald Trump, against all odds they are gaining in influence, and have already attracted a respectable portfolio of more eloquent, credible spokespersons to rally to their banner.
This latest copyright fiasco came as a surprise, not because of the ferocity of the attack over such a trivial issue, but because it succeeded in duping a number of fellow activists – including a couple of respectable Christians I was hitherto friends with, who gave me bear hugs last time I met them in person, and who have featured on my YouTube channel.
I was previously unaware of there being any animosity between this couple (who I can’t name) and myself, and they were even friends with me on Facebook. But one of them made it clear in a private email exchange with a mutual friend that, because I offered an unauthorized copy of a book on my YouTube channel, I am to be considered “toxic,” a “liability” and “bad for business.”
The vitriolic tirade in which these sentiments appeared was apparently an ill-judged attempt to use the copyright issue as leverage to turn my friend and certain other fellow activists against me and my work. The person was, in effect, outing themselves as a “Cedars hater” and siding with Mike and Kim Brooks.
Again, you are probably thinking: “So what? Why do I need to know all this? Why do you even need to write about it? By writing about it you are only exacerbating an already fraught situation, and possibly putting off JWs who will leap on all this as evidence that life outside Watchtower is full of bickering and turmoil.”
I am writing about this situation because it matters – or should matter to those who value free inquiry and intellectual honesty over religious zealotry and unfounded dogma. Things will not improve by ignoring the underlying problem, the elephant in the room. Whether I like it or not, a bitter war between the evangelical and atheist factions in the ex-JW community is raging – and it has just escalated.
A war I don’t want
I did not sign up to be an activist four years ago because I sought confrontation and controversy. Believe it or not, I loath confrontation and will avoid it where possible. But whether I like fighting or not, fighting – if only of the defensive sort – is precisely what I must now do if I am to continue despite sustained efforts to silence my atheism by those who insist everyone should believe as they do.
What matters to me is not power, prestige, money or popularity. If I wanted those things, there are far easier ways of obtaining them than being a secular-minded ex-JW anti-cult activist. What matters to me is one thing, and one thing alone: the fight for truth. It is a fight that has been going on for centuries, fought by great minds and inspirational individuals who have made immense individual sacrifices to birth a society as tolerant and progressive as the one we now enjoy.
But nothing can be taken for granted, and those who insist on inflicting their ignorance on everyone else are far from disappearing in the rear view mirror. The struggle continues and effects all of us, whether it is creationists rallying for equal time in the classroom, or gays and lesbians being denied equal rights, or jihadists trying to burn civilization as we know it. And in my own corner of this global battlefield, I refuse to keel over and capitulate to evangelical thugs such as Mike and Kim Brooks or those they succeed in enticing to flock to their anti-intellectual crusade.
That is why I wanted to let my readers and YouTube subscribers know that, from now on, I will be more open than ever about my atheism, and my channel will feature more videos specifically on that subject. It is painfully apparent from my interactions with Christian evangelical ex-JWs that many of them are completely unaware of the arguments for unbelief, and I want to do my part to redress the balance.
JWsurvey, meanwhile, will remain for the most part as it is now – a welcoming environment for both the religious and secular-inclined alike. Scriptures will continue to be freely cited where necessary, because even though Christianity is objectively without evidence as a belief system, it just so happens that the bible is still in conflict with the teachings and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses in a plethora of areas.
Finally, a message…
To my critics I say: Get off my back, or prepare for a long and bitter struggle, because I didn’t break free from years of cult servitude to be told to “shut up,” and I won’t be bullied. And even if you should succeed in silencing me, ultimately the wind is in the sails of free inquiry, science and reason. Others will pick up my baton when I finish, and I am already far from alone.
To my friends I say: Thank you so much for your support, but PLEASE refrain from attacking those who attack me. By doing so you only bolster their persecution complex, and rather than take out their frustration on you they will only escalate their onslaught.
And to Jehovah’s Witnesses who might be reading this, I say: The fact that ex-JW apostates are fighting each other is not evidence that you are not in a cult. It only means that Watchtower indoctrination has a range of extremely unpleasant side-effects, which include suspicion, paranoia, jealousy, anger and bitterness. All of those things can be found in abundance in kingdom halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but at least those of us on the outside have the ability to choose who our friends are for ourselves. And the longer you stay in the cult, the more pronounced those characteristics may be when you are finally able to walk away.
new-cedars-signature3
*For the record, I do not say there was nothing wrong in my offering an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience. I merely say that apologies need to go to those to whom they are owed, and any breach of copyright is strictly an issue between me and the copyright holder. And if you insist on besieging me with complaints on the matter, if you are fair and consistent you must similarly rebuke everyone who has involved themselves in downloading or distributing a PDF of the book – something the copyright holder has hitherto done nothing, to my knowledge, to halt. Others have complained that the JWsurvey.org logo has been added to the copy I was giving away, but the logo was added by my friend, not me – not that I think doing so was the heinous crime people are framing it as. And if you are to chastise me simply because my website is advertised on someone else’s copy of a book, you also need to level similar criticism at the owner of the JWfacts.com website, which is also endorsed.
Further reading…
◾Why I can no longer support aggressive forms of activism against Jehovah’s Witnesses
◾My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
Related video…
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The Friday Column: Portuguese documentary overshadows Governing Body visit →
237 Responses to The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
Newer Comments →
Mama Joy says:
December 2, 2015 at 3:18 pm
Add this one to the belief box:
The loving believer-
We are all on our own spiritual journey and what’s true for me may not be true for you. God doesn’t get caught up in your style of worship or cultural references, those are all man made anyways.
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Man from the lions pit says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:58 pm
Nicely put MJ.thx
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Man from the lions pit says:
December 3, 2015 at 10:00 pm
Nicely put MJ.thx
Reply
Brad says:
December 2, 2015 at 3:30 pm
Cedars, you do it right. Fair, balanced, and supported by evidence. Back when I was doing research and looking up youtube videos it took 10 seconds to see that these 2 individuals have nothing to offer intellectually. I saw that video where he thought he was John Wayne and started throwing out claims. . I thought it was a Chapelle show skit or comedy sketch. Keep on doing what you’re doing. How can you go from the cult of JW’S to the evangelical spectrum is a question I’d like an answer too.
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Garrett says:
December 2, 2015 at 3:42 pm
“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave who is supplying food at the proper time?”
I vote for Lloyd…………………
……………………..and Blue Moon Beer…….
We love you Lloyd……..you’re the best,
Keep up the fight.
We’re with you.
Garrett
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Pow says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:35 pm
Blue moon beer……huh……does that.make you a broncos fan also?
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Garrett says:
December 2, 2015 at 5:34 pm
Nope
Minnesota Vikings!
8-3
Go Queens!!!
Reply
SR says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:31 pm
wootwoot fellow Minnesotan
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Garrett says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:45 pm
SR
Where you from?
Pow says:
December 2, 2015 at 3:47 pm
Sorry to hear about that, Lloyd. I think we as humans our hardwired to create a world we understand or at least think we understand, therefore any challenges to that reality is viewed as a threat. It was all so much simpler when the world was flat and the gods of heaven controlled everything.
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MikeSem says:
December 2, 2015 at 3:49 pm
Dear John,
you’ve been my inspiration on my way out. Actually I’m still not done, not 100% out, but after some months of fighting internal struggle, I decided to start blog in my language – Slovak, because there is nothing available in this language, just some apostate pages, that look like from 80s and the content is rubbish as well.
I decide to provide facts, clear reasoning and information that is not available to standard JWs that to not speak english.
And your blog and videos are giving me power to continue. So please, so not give up.
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Garrett says:
December 2, 2015 at 5:37 pm
Mikesem
Excellent idea!!!!!
Do it!
You will save many from disaster!
Best of wishes
Garrett
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Man from the lions pit says:
December 3, 2015 at 10:08 pm
Chces pomoc nejako Mike ?
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Man from the lions pit says:
December 3, 2015 at 10:16 pm
If you need any help Mike let me know,I post this comment in Slovak too ,but it didn’t pass admin yet .
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PJ Wilcox says:
December 2, 2015 at 3:54 pm
Sir, you come from a very balanced and kind standpoint. I wish I had the same. I have been around JWs since my early 20s, now I am 66. I bought it hook line and sinker. I was brainwashed until Barbara Anderson helped me begin the process of sobriety with the JW mindset. I must say the anger and resentment I had was terrible. I get it. However with this child abuse cover up it takes a new look. I was abused prior to being a JW. This is something I tried to talk about with elders but they just dismissed me. My guilt was self destructive. I was in a narcissistic hole of self destruction. When you throw the abuse, war, JWs beliefs and the guilt you have a literal IED ready for detonation. I am glad I am on the way to recovery. I so enjoy your wisdom and insight. Keep it up. Your showing me some balance and doing good works for this atheist
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Ken S. says:
December 2, 2015 at 3:55 pm
Cedars…… I fully enjoy the articles that you produce and always look forward to reading your thoughts and insights on the current or past going ons inside of the Watchtower Organization. After reading this article…… I do hope that your writings will continue to be as insightful and comparable to the world that we ALL live in as they have in the past, the difference I have found between your writings and other ex-witness sites is the ability to enjoy your writings without the need to agree with your personal beliefs in faith. Your writings are very relatable across many readers thoughts and doesn’t require a specific thinking on God, The Bible or faith in general. (Although a common background is generally the basis for reading and enjoying your writings) An increase in articles on athiesm or a more centered viewpoint using that as a standard towards comparing the WT articles or developments inside of the organization may alienate many of your readers, myself included. (And seems to be counter to your own guidelines of “Religious Neutrality” listed below) I fully respect everyone for whatever beliefs that they have regardless on if they are my personal beliefs or not, I would just hate to see such amazing and enjoyable articles become unrelatable because a reader doesn’t share your specific view on faith.
Thank you for doing what you do, I have enjoyed following you for several years now.
-Ken
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Cedars says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:09 pm
Thanks Ken. Articles on JWsurvey will continue as normal. It’s only my YouTube channel that will be more open about atheism and unbelief. But thank you for proving right off the bat that there is such thing as a tolerant and understanding believer.
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Ken S. says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:48 pm
Thanks Cedars! I appreciate the clarification. I always look forward to your articles!
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Man from the lions pit says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:15 pm
I have kind same concern as Ken S above.
To be brief I would say at fist that you are different class than Mike & Kim.
I saw ones of their videos some time ago but simply put it’s not for me.
So if you want “fight”them its up to you but I think it’s a waist of time and energy but I respect your current feelings.Just keep in mind that feelings are subject of change in time and space. :-)
So my concern is if you will be able to keep you mind frame in same good shape and focus on your original objective “to give voice to silent majority” as ex JW on this platform at the same time profile yourself in Y tube channel as “advocate of atheism in fight against evangelical Christians”.
To me this is asking about kind bipolar approach which will weaken your current strong position in this segment.
The success (I don’t mean commercial or how many visitors your site have) of JW Surwey is that you were able to tackle some issues of JW.org in original way thus pleasing to many .You open eyes (awake) of many of JW community so this ability and position will be endanger in my humble opinion.
I respect your personal development as you described that you came from being a JW trough agnosticism to atheism but don’t forget the journey of searching for the TRUTH in life doesn’t end in the camp of the atheist.
If than would be case than we wouldn’t have those who leave this camp in disappointment and go there where the others come from or somewhere else.
My best wishes to you and your family Loyd,stay strong bro !
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Jeffreycanning says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:00 pm
I’m with you pal… It saddens me to hear we are not all united… I have 9 ex jw sites as ‘favourites and you and paul g. And babs are 12 and 3…
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Jerome Griff says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:00 pm
A very welcome article and I appreciate your candor. While I respect some of those in opposition to you, I see I have more in common with the agnostic beliefs.
I would hope all could come together in a united front against the WT, but what I have sen happen over the last year especially has made me arrive at the same conclusion: there are deep divisions in the XJW community and it is best to find out for your own mental sanity where you feel most at home in.
In saying that, you will continue to have my support and gratitude. Take care John.
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Paul says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:02 pm
As usual a thought provoking and balanced analysis of the situation.
Thanks for your honesty and open-ness Lloyd.
We support your efforts and understand the need to careful steps through the minefield that is the complex thought processes of exjw cult survivors.
Strategic Activism is my aim, and also encouragement for those who are out, or trying to get out.
Hope you continue – you have my support.
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Dodger says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:08 pm
I hate to say it, but my first though was that Mr. and Mrs. Brooks seem, to me, to be “mentally diseased.”
I believe in freedom and liberty of people to believe as they wish and express their beliefs as they wish, as long as they do no harm and are not coercive. These people seem to delight in doing harm.
Sorry you’re having a rough time because of it. You seem to be a very reasonable fellow.
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Mynameisnotsister says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:22 pm
Not to defend the Watchtower by any means, but let’s not lay blame for their crazy completely on the organization. I think whatever their issues are have been around all along. Not sure what their motivations are but I’m thinking it’s not so altruistic.
Thank you Cedars for being reasonable and sound of mind.
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David says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:17 pm
A fair point, I’d say. Sometimes people are the way they are because of WT teachings and sometimes not. There are agressive people in and out.
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Mel says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:27 pm
I’m what you described a non-activist. But I will say that I support what you’re doing. I’ve followed your journey for the past four years. You always write respectful, intelligent and factual articles. Don’t let the haters get to you. I will quote Dr Suess “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter don’t mind.”
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Amy says:
December 2, 2015 at 5:24 pm
Ditto!!!
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kasey jones says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:35 pm
Thank you for taking the time to explain the elephant. I felt like I was missing something, and I totally was. I think your making an excellent decision. If your gonna put your heart into your work, you should put your whole heart into it. That way, it leaves no room for misunderstandings in the future, and your children will be proud of where they came from. A strong, noble breed.
Keep up the excellent work, humanity needs more brainy people and less bullshit!
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Nancy says:
December 2, 2015 at 4:37 pm
Very well observed article! I became an atheist pretty much the moment I was no longer a JW. It was a logical transition for me. My issues weren’t even with JW beliefs (initially) as much as they were with the authenticity of bible in general. Now, being secure in my non-belief, I have become (to take your phrase) a strategic activist. The evangelical faction of ex JWs scare the crap out of me just as any extreme branch of religion does. There is no love there, just control and anger.
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Sunshine says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:29 pm
I agree (mostly). I made a choice to leave jw just over 4 years ago, when I realised my son with Aspergers is gay. He was 15 years old at the time. He has always been gay. It wasn’t a choice for him. My faith in the Bible as being the word of a loving God was sorely tested. I couldn’t go from being a jw to evangelical- or any other Bible led religion for that matter because they would all condemn my son to a life without intimacy. I’ve joined other ex jw forums in the past but too many times it was like going from a frying pan into a fire! This one is the only one I currently subscribe to.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I’m now an atheist. I’m more agnostic. I don’t ‘believe’ in anything yet still remain positive. I’m not angry or bitter. I don’t hate jws. My husband is still a jw member, and 2 of my children are. I hope that they see from my experiences that it’s possible to leave the religion and be happy. Wouldn’t it be good if I could ‘win them without a word’?! However, I know for a fact that if I started talking to them like an ‘aggressive’ apostate they would just stop associating with me. I’m not dfd. The elders haven’t ‘come after me’ so I can’t really complain.
It was tough leaving and it messed me up for a while but I got through it. I’ll never go back. Life is for living. I’m happy to get on with mine because I know that to do otherwise would be counter productive.
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Nancy says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:11 am
That’s interesting, Sunshine. The issue of homosexuality was the first one that made me question the idea of a loving god and the words of the bible. I have so many close, dear friends who are gay and I just couldn’t believe in a god that would, essentially, set them up to fail (since they are born that way). From there I started to question everything in the bible and began to read books on the authenticity of the bible and who actually wrote it. That did it for me. Without the bible there is no Christianity. Jesus does not exist outside of those pages.
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David says:
December 2, 2015 at 5:25 pm
I believe that we should only fight for the right of leaving a religion with dignity. The JW can continue following seven lunatics if they happy with it. I personally respect people choices as long as they treat other people with the same respect.
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wifibandit says:
December 2, 2015 at 5:33 pm
I support Lloyd, his methods and his outlook. Thank you for all your hard work.
Now, back to my mentally diseased weeping and gnashing of teeth! 😛
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Susannah says:
December 2, 2015 at 5:37 pm
As usual articulate, detailed and clear. But this is also an exceptional piece of writing. Glad you stewed on all this! Amazing what laying a floor can produce.
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JBob says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:05 pm
Read hastily, but there’s also a Facebook group…Cedars..
Lloyd..
Off-putting divisions…
When I first looked at the landscape of evangelical and orthodox Christianity, I naturally thought like David Reed and others, how can the love of God and Spirit of Christ be with this mass of confusion? But, on closer exam, there was a uniting purpose, the focus on Christ and submission to Christ. Likewise, while former JW’s and dissenters and sceptics disagree on form and approaches, the uniting goal is awakening the general and curious public and current members who find themselves burdened, confused, conflicted and afflicted.
Getting into a box, a habit, of comfort, I found myself thinking I had to cope with the conditions and treatment I received from JW’s. The answer was, I didn’t–even if JW’s were THE only way, I didn’t have to tolerate the treatment–conform–like a robot. Faded. Then, I started unwinding the trap. I think like most, I stripped the GB of its authority, then started researching where this stuff was made.
And, likewise, with how one approaches disengaging from the Watchtower, it is on your terms, there is no hierarchy that will ostracize you or call you into a kangaroo court for not posting You Tube videos, or posting You Tube videos. A lovely video on this subject is posted on You Tube somewhere that describes the lovely rainbow of persons disengaging from the Watchtower.
Job 30:20-31:
“I cry out to you, God, but you do not answer;
I stand up, but you merely look at me.
You turn on me ruthlessly;
with the might of your hand you attack me.
You snatch me up and drive me before the wind;
you toss me about in the storm.
I know you will bring me down to death,
to the place appointed for all the living.
Surely no one lays a hand on a broken man
when he cries for help in his distress.
Have I not wept for those in trouble?
Has not my soul grieved for the poor?
Yet when I hoped for good, evil came;
when I looked for light, then came darkness.
The churning inside me never stops;
days of suffering confront me.
I go about blackened, but not by the sun;
I stand up in the assembly and cry for help.
I have become a brother of jackals,
a companion of owls.
My skin grows black and peels;
my body burns with fever.
My lyre is tuned to mourning,
and my pipe to the sound of wailing.”
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David says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:08 pm
Oh, wow. I knew you’d had some flack for for being against agressive activism, but I didn’t know the extent. I had a quick look at a certain Youtube channel; it seems like the embarrasing avoid-eye-contact-and-slowly-back-away kind of crazy, unfortunately. Sad that people would put so much effort into being offended and confrontational. I hope they are able to gain a measure of perspective at some point.
It strikes me that trying to change someone’s opinion on agressive activism may be somewhat like trying to use logic with a person in a high control group who has been indoctrinated with phobias. I.e. the more direct you are the worse things get.
I agree that it’s important to learn there’s no one, single ex-JW community that can always be relied upon to be a utopia. Life is too complex and messy for that. But there are plenty of people who we are able to bond with, whatever our religious beliefs or lack thereof, and they don’t always have to be ex-JWs. As mentioned in a recent JW podcast, people who have no direct experience of JWs are often very understanding and supportive, and even genuinely curious.
Anyway, I hope that you’re able to maintain your public stance on these things without having to deal with wildly confrontational people directly, and that you’re able to keep positive for the benefit of readers who may be on their way out. If you want to blow off steam privately and need someone to listen, I’m here. :)
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Mary Strauser says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:09 pm
I hope you never stop your activism. You have helped too many people escape the cult, or at least feel justified in leaving.
You have never claimed to be perfect, quite the contrary.
Who knows what the true motives of your detractors are!
Surely some of these issues are just a matter of jumping to conclusions too quickly and misunderstanding your motives, which are obviously not fired by money, but instead, to expose Watchtower.
I think Mike and Kim should keep their focus on exposing Watchtower and pay no mind to anything you do that they don’t agree with…problem solved!
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Mac says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:12 pm
I recently turned fifty-seven years of age but began having doubts about my faith in my twenties. I went through years of guilt and family stress as I drifted away. I only wish I could have had the help of this web site and Lloyd’s insight, intellectual honesty and courage. I am truly amazed that he possesses such skills being such a young man. Others have already given support, I only wish to express mine as well and to thank him for the interesting, focused presentations, videos, and articles. As a resident of the U.S. I am embarrassed at some of the rambling incoherent nonsense posted by some of my countrymen. Thank you Lloyd, you are appreciated!
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January says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:15 pm
I have a complicated relationship with the exjw community. I tried to get involved when I was newly out, 15ish years ago, but the fighting and bible quoting put me off. My journey was long and lonely and I would have loved to have known other people who could relate. During my son’s more recent attempt to break away, I was reintroduced to the community. In the sea of conflict, there are islands of sanity. I believe you are one. Your calm manner and fact based videos have proven to be a great help in my son’s journey into free thought, and you let me know that I’ve never really been alone. We have all been damaged by this cult, some more than others. But now we have the choice to be loving, kind, accepting and decent to one another. Don’t let the muggles get you down.
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SR says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:22 pm
They are in the minority it would seem. I don’t think you need to doubt yourself over any of this. Don’t get sucked into their crazy.
Sometimes I find myself conflicted about how I feel about people who are still JWs. I was born in and left at 19. I believed for years there was something wrong with me for leaving. Adult JWs were my captors and abusers and it is hard sometimes to show sympathy for them. There does seem to be a balance of narcissists and their supply in the organization. Kids were always supply for these assholes. At times like that I enjoy some aggressive activism. Then I think about the couple who’s son committed suicide after leaving the borg. I saw them both drunk at a bar a few years ago. They paid a high price for their mistake. Mostly the only reason I contribute at all is because to get the kids out we have to get their parents out. It is hard for me to understand an adult going along with any of this BS and sometimes I feel like they get what they deserve.
I probably need some therapy. I can see how someone would feel the need to rage on them.
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Imacountrygirl says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:24 pm
Lloyd, I respect that each of us has our own belief. I have made a conscience decision that it’s not my job to judge anyone.
I personally still believe in a higher power, a Creator of the Universe and I have faith that at some future point his Son Jesus will judge each person because he can see into a persons’ heart, no matter who or what they claim they are. I have no concrete proof of that, but then that’s why it’s called faith.
It sets a bar to reach for. A purpose to my life. When I die and if all that I’ve prayed for doesn’t come, I will have lived a life of love and peace, leaving this world a better place. That knowledge is “enough” for me.
One of the clearest messages I get from the Bible is that we should treat other people the way that we would like to be treated. That puts the responsibility for everything I say and do on me. Labels are only words. It is our actions that matter.
I always enjoy the articles on here, even if I don’t leave a comment. While the articles themselves are interesting and informative to me, the reason that I keep coming back is because this is the closest thing to “Home” that I have found on the net. I have seen some troubled people pass through here, but I have never felt such unconditional love and acceptance so deeply as I feel on your site.
I don’t feel so alone in this world because here I can associate with people who have gone through the same things I have and who understand how great our grief is and exactly what we have lost. We are forever bound by a shared experience which no one understands but us.
After the dissolution, disappointment and loss we have all suffered, and are still dealing with the fallout, it leaves little wonder that the process has affected each one of us individually and we all are in different stages of trying to put our lives back together on a new foundation because our old one, well it crumbled away under our feet. No one can do it for us, we are the only one who can put our lives back together but we are free and we are making our own choices! We can help each other.
I will have to digest your words here and what they mean to me as I was not aware of the situation. I do offer my love and support to you.
I am sorry that you are being treated hatefully and disrespectfully by former JWs or anyone else for that matter. No one deserves that when they are only trying to help others.
As far as “Freedom of Conscience” goes, I got a free copy from Hulu.com before they became what they are now. An internet search will pull up other sites to get free access to his book. I think Raymond Franz would be happy to know that so many of us have benefited from his book. It is a light drawing us in from a place of great darkness.
I even bought a copy on half.com for $10.00 a couple of years ago.
Sometimes people turn their pain into anger and hate and have to find a place to put it. I have found that the more anger and hate you see in someone it is in direct proportion to the depth of their pain. You have a target on your back because of the stand you have taken.
I have never told you this Lloyd, but I love you like a brother and I can’t thank you enough for being just who you are.
Your loving sister
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Man from the lions pit says:
December 6, 2015 at 9:57 pm
Very nice loving,comforting and sincere word from u to Lloyd.
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Maddy says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:25 pm
I am fairly new to this on-line ex-JW scene, so I am not aware of the history between the factions of the community, but I still have an opinion and a story that I am going to share a bit of here. I have been inactive since my 20’s (now 46) and have periodically tried to go back, but the panic attacks associated with it were too much.
I finally had the courage to look at ‘apostate’ sites this past summer and immediately noticed there are some major differences in the ex-JW community. Some sites are very aggressive, posting odd things that seemed incredulous to me. Others were factual and helpful. I immediately bookmarked every site so I would not forget, but it took only a few short weeks for me to start methodically deleting some. After years of indoctrination and what I feel was (still is) JW harassment, why on earth would I leave only to be subjected to more?
One of the first things I did when I decided to leave the JWs was complete my grade 12. During that process I had to write an essay on fear. What was I afraid of? Well the first obvious things i.e. bugs/snakes etc. but I decided to write it on something real to me and that was evangelists. They, to this day, scare the crap out of me and it does not matter what religion they are attached to. When listening to them I perceive them as ranting and raving rather than helpful. My mother converted when I was 4 and she always fit this role, terrorizing me as a child, badgering me as a teen which resulted in my baptism at 17.
I cannot support anyone who uses these methods in any aspect of life. I can fully understand why some would abandon religion altogether after the Watchtower and why some just gravitate to another religion or belief. Like many of the ex-JW community, I still have family involved, and friends that I love like family. Why would I ever terrorize them? I love them and I want to help them see the facts as they are presented through research. I have thought very seriously about becoming a strategic activist, but I am concerned about being effective and not harmful.
My point? Even before I knew of the issues with Cedars and the others, I had deleted the others from my FB followings, YouTube and bookmarked web pages/sites. I cannot be subjected to anymore ravings of those who believe in whatever it is that they think they believe in. I want you, John Evans, to know just how important your site is, not only to me, but the 5 adult children I have whom I share your posts with. Combined with Barbara Anderson, JWstruggle and JWfacts, you have helped us all here lift the thick veil of the Watchtower from our lives and feel confident that life is worth living.
Congratulations to you and the others who seek to help, not hurt. You are in my heart and I thank you.
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Man from the lions pit says:
December 6, 2015 at 10:05 pm
I feel like to response behalf Lloyd.
Thanks for kind & loving responses like yours.It show that many ex JW are still loving and kind people with open mind! peace & love
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kofybean says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:26 pm
Everyone needs haters. If you don’t have haters, you probably aren’t doing anything worthwhile. It’s when you find yourself in the majority that you need to take a step back and reevaluate.
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Grace says:
December 2, 2015 at 6:35 pm
Keep up the good work Lloyd. I can’t bring myself to watch those people, they seem too intense & like stirring up trouble. Like everyone else here has said, you give well balanced information. You did well to stay quiet & let it run it’s course.
I think that I would like to consider being the strategic activist because I don’t like confrontation either.
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Nick says:
December 2, 2015 at 7:18 pm
Lloyd,
I think you and I both began our exit at around the same time. I think we also both started post on another exjw website around the same time too. Our journeys are very much the same. I would personally like to thank you because if it was not for you and wifibandit’s hard work my wife might still be in. I have not seen the other site you speak of but, just from hearing about it, I don’t think I ever would. I also do not agree with aggressive activism; I think its off putting and only add to the stigma held by JWs about us. I do think that now is the time to take advantage of the horrible truths being revealed about the Org and its policies. Personally, the best method I use is the socratic method. Along with the information provided here and other sites, this method can lead one to question on their own accord. Anyway, thank you and keep on the watch Cedars 😉
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Richard says:
December 2, 2015 at 7:21 pm
Evangelical ex-jw have simply traded one misguided ideology for another. They moved from one ignorant tribe of baffoons to a different one. Cedars, keep up the good work and don’t let those pitiful imbeciles get to you.
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Amber says:
December 2, 2015 at 7:21 pm
I think you have hit the nail on the head with the statement “Those who leave can be riddled with so much resentment and frustration that many can’t help but re-direct it at their fellow ex-members”.
It’s funny, just today in a session with my therapist, I talked about all the things in my life that I have fought to overcome since leaving JWs, and how angry I was that even so, I have found another way that the cult has residually, indirectly, caused disaster again in my life, 7 years later. My therapist asked me: “Who do you feel that anger towards?” inviting me to give space for that anger, allow myself to feel it against those responsible and thereby work through it. I sat there and said that was the problem — I could find no one on whom to direct the anger. 8 guys in Brooklyn I’ve never met? The collective body of JWs? My parents for raising me in it? It was all so abstract, I couldn’t pin any object for my anger down. So, this is what happens: a target stares out from one’s computer screen, talking about this shared disastrous past, and says things that perhaps one disagrees with, or rubs one the wrong way, this person talking can very easily become the target for one’s rage, if one hasn’t had the opportunity or help to work through it.
I think the relative anonymity or removal of the Internet also amplifies this opportunity to rage, and gives a person the outlet to discharge that rage without having to feel empathy for the one who is the convenient target. Providing a momentary relief from the actual rage for which they have no fingerable target.
I know that doesn’t make it any easier, but I’m glad that you have the ability to see it for what it is — I hope it makes it easier to bear the brunt of it knowing that others acknowledge it too.
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Cedars says:
December 3, 2015 at 12:19 pm
Thanks Amber, it does make it easier! I’m glad to know I’m not the only one who has seen firsthand how pervasive indoctrination can be.
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Tara says:
December 2, 2015 at 7:25 pm
I think when people leave the Org. fully or just mentally they can either escape like pent up pressure shooting off in any direction or they can escape in a controlled way. we are all so very different and our new freedom has sent us all off in many different directions. My direction led here and I am so grateful it did. I still believe in a God…. though I find it hard to use the NWT… I still pray though I use Jehovah less and less… just because I feel I can no longer trust anything the WT told me. It’s very sad to have the carpet pulled out from beneath you.
Keep up the good work Lloyd. I for one am behind you.
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jason says:
December 2, 2015 at 7:25 pm
Take heart John Cedars! You do a great job! Your YouTube videos and sensible, sound logic are refreshing. There’s no way to not have critics or some who will attack your personal character in this life. Keep up your good work…don’t loose sleep over some hot headed individuals…
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Ren says:
December 2, 2015 at 7:26 pm
Cedars,
No, please don’t keel over. Yes, please redress the balance. I was out a few years before JWSurvey was up and at times I felt alone in my views that aggressive activism was the antithesis to waking up. I would try to reason with such ones about how it just cements in their heads that leaving makes you a lunatic. But those I talked to were just so angry I think it was more about expressing their feelings than helping any witnesses.
The first time I read your comments it was on other ex-jw sites, and I thought, “who is this guy?” It was so refreshing! At last, someone who gets it! But I must confess, I went to a therapist when I was exiting to process my anger and fears, which helped tremendously. It seems reasonable that most coming out of any high-control group could use a few sessions on the couch.Know what I mean? Therefore, I totally agree and support your stance that this atmosphere of violence amongst ex-jw’s has everything to do with the mental conditioning of the cult, which needs to be restored to healthy function. I also applaud your not thinking that we have to create another think-a-like group to replace that which we came out of. We’re humans. Doing the cookie cutter thing only causes pain. Long live JWSURVEY.
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Quiet reader says:
December 2, 2015 at 7:34 pm
Dear Lloyd,
So terribly sorry to hear about the abuse you and your family have suffered. Yes, you are correct in saying that because of the horrible indoctrination of JWs and the belief system used of hating everyone who is not part of your collective unity, they attack and destroy each other. Many feel they are entitled to have a “gloves off” approach since leaving, and they do not see that they are simply mimicking the very people they have left.
My husband and I appreciate all that you are doing and your very evenhanded way of dealing with all things JW. It’s often a case of taking out their grievances on whomever is closest and easiest targets. They cannot touch the WT or any of the GB and all that pent up anger and frustration must go somewhere. I am so sorry they have decided to use you and your work as their whipping boy. Please know that there are many of us who check your blog daily to see your thoughts and the thoughts of the people who write with you. You are a gifted writer with the ability to get your points across without “standing on a soap box”. Thank you for all you do and please keep it going.
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Sarah says:
December 2, 2015 at 8:07 pm
Just now seeing this. Hmm, I think to any person whose beliefs are evidence based this situation is very clear. I also agree with what many of the other comments are basically saying, the great thing about leaving JWs is you are now free to express your opinions and beliefs on all of this, so good for you. No reason to bottle them up, get the truth out there, and you did a good job doing it. I truly believe that if you are true to yourself you will continue to find your voice in this world, and continue to help people…and as an agnostic your words have always “clicked” with me, from the first day I read them. I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. Ugh what is the saying? “Religion poisons everything…” Not belief in a god, higher power etc necessarily.. But religion.. Oh I wish you’d go away.
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Arlis Scott says:
December 2, 2015 at 9:23 pm
You know the world is waking up to the pitfalls of religious cults. Jehovah Witnesses are only just a small part of it. A sad part of it. Racism, bigotry, deceit and deception, narcis attitudes only make for anger and hate! It’s a sad part that even if you were raised as a witness, it’s not until the point that you leave, that you realize that some of those traits are prevalent in the Watchtower Society. The more you look at the start of Jehovah Witnesses, that those traits were part and parcel of how this organization started. You don’t even realize that you may even have some of those attitudes. Enough to make you sick to your stomach. I only know that no religion will ever have that much control over my life ever again. Anyone who think that by using any of those traits to make a point is only hurting themselves more than they realize. Take God out of the picture and ask yourself, who are you? Why are you here? What good are you doing for your fellow man? The blessings that we have is being alive! What you do every day makes life worth living! Exposing injustice takes courage and a willingness to ask the right questions! Making a person start to use their thinking skills is a must if you want them to leave this cult. Those people who have the courage and willingness to help people in a responsible way will reach more peoples hearts than anyone else. Verse those who use force and anger, accomplish really nothing at all except make that horrible wall this organization builds to protect it’s power, stronger. Thank you Lloyd for being such an honorable man! Your courage and strength are much appreciated. You are loved.
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JB Reezner says:
December 2, 2015 at 9:36 pm
JWFacts was my first, JWSurvey was my second– and I haven’t gone looking anywhere else. I know there are other good ones out there, but so far I’ve been very content with what I’ve found here, and on Mr. Grundy’s invaluable site. I can also honestly say that, even as an atheist myself, I appreciate that neither site officially pushes atheism.
I love the inclusive nature of the JWSurvey comments section. Of course, I’m in favor of people being exposed to the rational arguments in favor of atheism, but sites with a primary goal of exposing the JW Org as a cult will clearly be more effective in that important work if they mostly refrain from diluting it with articles featuring potentially divisive issues, as evidenced by the success of this site.
Thank you very much, Lloyd.
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Drew says:
December 2, 2015 at 9:54 pm
Why do you believe that “watchtower” or Jehovah’s witnesses are a cult as a youth I strayed away and found my return back to the truth and it has changed my life for the better. Not here for controversy but the internet is filled with slander and so much hate. The world is truly in the power of the wicked one
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Bret says:
December 2, 2015 at 11:27 pm
Why is the Watchtower a cult? Hmmm, let me list a few things!!!
1) 7 men are said to be Gods spokesman and what they say cannot be questioned or challenged.
2) They envoke a fear induced phobia (i.e. Armegeddon, 2nd Death) to control the masses
3) They demand absolute allegiance and adherence
4) They use disfellowshipping, shunning and loss of association to control
5) They use fear control, information control, emotional and physical control tactics
These are but a few on a long list that confirms its a cult..
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Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 12:26 am
1.all things are open to question and are based solely on Jehovah’sprinciples and not men’s. Somethings have even been overturned that are questionable. Different understandings have came to light on a lot of subjects.
2.fear induced phobia not at all the fear of god is that to fear a father, like you dont want to not please your parents by not listening to them. Armageddon you have a choice to be part of the world or choose not to be part of the world. That is why you have free will. No one is controlling you. Deeper understanding and reading of revelation which is a hard book to swallow, but pray for understanding and it can be granted to you.
3. Adherence not to an organization but the Jehovah’s principles, yes! If its not in the bible then we as an organization do not adhere to it. Take the apostles for example they walked with Jesus and they struggled cause they were imperfect but by faith stood firm and continued Jesus work.
4. I had a hard time with this and always wonder why? But think about it you are a coach of a team one of your star player is bringing others down and leading them off of the path of success that you have worked hard to finally get too. Do you cut the whole team off, let the sickness continue to spread or remove the negative one that has lost his way to save the team. Also is it not written in Corinthians that these bad associations can ruin the useful habits. So only fear would be that of not pleasing Jehovah especially if you are baptized and dedicated.
5.could be covered in the same lines of 4. And 3.
By definition though any organization could be categorized as a cult. Even websites, Justin beiber fans and so much more. But we as witnesses are not a cult just like you will say that this site or the extremist that slander the organization would say they are not as well.
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minion says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:17 am
@ Drew,
1. Not true.
You can not question anything, or your elders will label you an apostate.
2. Not true.
WT Corporation takes away your “free will” or freedom of choice.
How? they impose You – to live your life in paradisic conditions, in a unjust, wicked system.
This is in not logical. And not safe.
3. Not true.
Question 3, was recently changed to be baptized to a directed organization.
Jehovah and Jesus Christ is not recognized.
4. Untrue statement.
WT Corporation is a contratarian, to everything Jesus Christ was teaching. Please re-read the gospels and size up WT Corporations beliefs vs. Jesus Christ teachings, and you will find a huge discrepancy.
Peace out,
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Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:30 am
1. Is true I study with an elder
2. Is true yes they say try to live as if you are in paradise but we know we are in a constant wrestling with the world. Jesus said they will hate you like they hate me cause im no , part of the world.
3. Sorry the organization doesn’t demand complete adherence, you know who does. Jehovah does, love jehovah your god with your whole heart and so on.
Then the gospels and our beliefs I turn you to jw.org and look up t
Jw beliefs then you can follow it to the gospels there and see if they line up and if you find a discrepancy then please point it out to me. Thanks
minion says:
December 3, 2015 at 12:07 am
@ Drew,
It’s always good to see ownership and improvement on your being. However, I believe all religions may fall under the umbrella of a cult.
How do you feel about the LDC, Watchtower Corporation term for Local Design Construction implemented 1-2015, which by the way is suppose to handle all the new commercial format Kingdom Halls, three cities were highlighted – Dallas-Ft.Worth, Miami and LA. Then 3 months later – all KH surplus cash was mandated to be sent to WT Corporation, then last month – all construction has been halted. The exception is Warwick – the contaminated toxic site, yes, you read correct.
Do you really believe, the god name Jehovah, is directing by holy spirit the Watchtower Corporation, by way of introducing the LDC roll out and then halt all construction, perhaps due too mismanagement or embezzlement of your donations or most recently madatory monthly tithing?
Do you believe it’s logical and reasonable – the so call “new light” or old light to new light. Then new light to old light.
It’s time to get off the merry-go-round.
World history has taught us, countries fought in unity to gain there freedom. Do you agree with this statement? Then you would also agree, Watchtower Corporation has perfected by way of the courts, – the first amendment – which is the protection of freedom to express oneself.
Watchtower Corporation however, has policies in place, You can not question anything right or wrong the 7 men (GB) say or do. And this also includes your local elders. You can’t be on this web site, (don’t ask – don’t tell – right.) And the list goes on and on, You can’t do this or that, and the WT Corporation likes to play mind control, oops, I mean, mind games- to place or play the Fear Factor of Armageddon – is just around the corner, have you heard about this? Let me guess for the past 150 years. It’s documented in the WT Magz.
In summary, I’m happy your better off – returning back to JWs world.
This blog JWSurvey believes – Unity in Freedom for Thruth.
Peace out,
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Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 12:50 am
You are correct Armageddon has been said to come but way past a 150 years. Really ever since genesis where the first prophecy of satan striking Jesus in the heel and him crushing his head. The bible says we dobt know the time or date, but you cant tell me since 1914 times have not gotten worse and worse. Famine, wars, prejudice the list grows and grows so does the numbers of deaths. Jehovah states in the bible that he is not slow as you think he is he is really wanting everyone to be saved and not suffer. Based off history the bible is accurate in all its prophecies so why not Armageddon?
I don’t know where it comes from, about the control of my site browsing privileges, but im open to converse freely im not going to be reprimanded for coming across a site full of apostates that you feel have the wrong views.
Its funny most people have a run in with 1 group of witnesses and are turned off cause of those imperfect people’s actions. Would be like me not reading cedars post and saying he’s just like these other radicals. We are all imperfect trying to serve a perfect god. Man make mistakes. But its funny how even atheists though on the brink of death even find time to acknowledge god.
Thanks minion on that acknowledgement I appreciate it.
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minion says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:36 am
@ Drew,
Please print out the dialogue your having on this web site and share this with your elders.
Have them ( the elders) explain which part of our conversation is in error.
And share the message of error with all of us. And You be the hero, only accept the challenge if you willing and able, and of soundness of mind.
Peace out,
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Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:35 am
Actually I planned on sharing thos with him today as reading the accusations I was compelled to speak instead of reading quietly in the shadows. Not a challenge at all my fellow neighbors are in.need of enlightenment so I wouldnt be doing my utmost if I kept quiet.
Pow says:
December 3, 2015 at 10:24 am
In regards disfellowshipping,
As a long time elder here is my comment . Obviously we would naturally shun someone who would harm us or our family in a physical, emotional, financial, sexual, spiritual way…however, just like the court of law in a free society, there has to be safeguards in the execution
of justice. ..otherwise, citizens can be subject to abusive miscarriages of authority, Sadly, that is what we have in JW’S judicial process, even compared with the Sanhedrin court of Jesus day, they were sooo much more transparent. ..frankly the fact that a person can be disfellowshipping for “teaching /believing ” a “truth ” other then what is currently taught by watchtower , even if that “TRUTH ” changes, in essence means Jesus was.truly an apostate and deserved the sentence he received.
Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:52 pm
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:53 pm
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:53 pm
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:54 pm
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:54 pm
@minion I brought the dialogue to my elders and they commended me on my strong faith in bible truths and following of jesus commandment in Matthew 25. So those who have ears let them hear so to speak. Teachings have changed understandings have changed but the bible based principles have and will not. I mean earlier days the organization took part in crosses, holidays and so on but as time progressed so has the understanding and the applications. Peole harp about the Armageddon, well it was said to be 1914, millennium so on and so on. But the bible says no one knows the appointed time but Jehovah and when that time arrives Jesus will be like a thief in the night. Prepare your hearts and mind by deeper understanding of the bible and let it clothe you in its new personality and may you be guided by a bible trained conscience
BB5179 says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:15 am
Drew,
I suggest that you check out the mis- quoting in the origins of life brochure, and then ask yourself this question.. The only one that matters: IS it true?
Truth does not need mis-quoting and lies to back it up, simply because its true… IF the WT really is god’s organisation guided by HS then why would it need to resort to quote mining and lying to back up its claims? For more examples of lying by WT see the Australian Royal commission videos of elders and Mark Sanderson Lying in a court of law. Truth does not need lies to back it up… Would god need you to lie to defend him?
AS Lloyd always says Its either true or it isnt… Go to http://www.jwfacts.com and do some honest research and you will find the answer. To me the answer was right there in black and white when i compared the original sources to the quotes in the Origins of Life Brochure.
One last thing i ask you to try… If you feel that you have freedom of thought and opinion at the kingdom hall, If there is a doctrine that you disagree with stand up at the meeting and say you disagree, see what happens? Does that thought fill you with dread? Then you already have your answer as to whether its a cult or not.. But by all means give it a go.
I wish you all the best in your search for honest answers, you have taken a very important step just being here keep going and questioning everything….
Reply
Drew says:
December 3, 2015 at 5:25 am
I went to your site and have heard of some of these accusations and some I have not. The elders that have committed those heinous acts are brought to judgement if those acts they were accused of are true. The organization has changed throughout the decades and it has progressed for thr better. You say you see in black and white so do I. All scriptures are inspired is what the bible states, man make mistakes but jehovah doesn’t and that is who I worship not an organization. No other organizations I know though have adhere to Jehovah’s bible principles. There may have been some bad apples there may have been wrong clarification on somethings like the types and anti types or the fall of Babylon but they keep gods commandments. I thank you guys for your thoughts and views but in my search for god throughout all religions personal study.and so on, I see no evidence of cult traits. I see ones that leave the truth because they loose faith in Armageddon, they loose faith in god, they loose faith in the organization cause they look at the man instead of the message. I seen friends go pursue their on endeavors but return when they cant find the answers. Lol some of you guys make it sound like its the matrix. I pray all you guys find your way and honestly may it lead to Jehovah.
minion says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:19 pm
@ Drew, your last post at 5:25 am,
I’m happy, Your happy you have return to organized religion also known as the Christian congregation of JWs.
Your research on questions you have, your looking for answers. And that’s a good thing, we all went down this road, and we exited off the merry-go-round. That’s Not a bad thing.
We all believed and bled JW mentality.
However, ask yourself, ‘why does the organization continue to flip-flop on doctrines’,? According to G.Jackson (GB) he testified and said they (GB) are Guardians-of-Doctrine (do you see a word trend G-O-D)
Why does it protect child abuser’s within your congregation and remain in your presence?
The abuser’s and the crime are nneverreported to the police. Do you believe Jesus Christ or Jehovah, would do the same?
Do you believe unconditional brotherly love is true and real inside your congregation?
Of which an elder or the members of your congregation would stop everything he’s doing and go and visit an unbeliever at his death bed, knowing well his sins are about to be paid in full (Rom.,6:23) and never visit this person? What are the elders thinking.?
In the corporate world, as you know, the expression ‘No room for error’. Expectations and the bar will be set high, deliver or be delivered.’
Ask yourself, ‘If holy spirit is really guiding and blessing the organization, then please explain to All of us, the serious legal and financial problems Watchtower Corporation is currently (2015) experiencing.
Soon, the legal courts will decide the state of affairs of WT Corporation.
You know, the gospel of Jesus Christ, never mentions the man made beliefs (WT Corp) of my comments.
I’m happy for your continued research about your doubts.
Peace out,
Reply
Grace says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:36 pm
Drew,
“The organization has changed throughout the decades and it has progressed for the better”.
I think that you will find if you study the Australian Royal Commissions findings that the Organisation refuses to change for the better.
“No other organizations I know though have adhere to Jehovah’s bible principles”.
That is not true, have you been inside of other religions to prove that? I’m sorry but that’s just a thought stopping cliche that the WT indoctrinates members with.
“they loose faith in the organization cause they look at the man instead of the message”.
That’s because the “organisation” is run by “men” who’s “message” is to be obedient even when they are flat out lying & get things wrong with no apologies for the aftermath.
That’s when you can say that it is a cult.
minion says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:36 pm
@ Drew,
I look forward to see your findings – the message of error, from jwsurvey.
I hope your elders will give you a platform and voice. This may require time, perhaps a follow up with you.
Nevertheless, continue to question everything. As a previous comment said, ‘you disagree what you hear at the kingdom Hall, stand up and speak your mind’. This will be a bold move, assertive, believe from within your heart.
And remember, courage – is the beginning to conquest of Fear!
And for the record, jwsurvey is – “Unity in Freedom for Thruth” be sure to incorporate this language, when you converse with your elders.
I’m happy, for your happiness returning to be a JW.
Peace out,
Reply
minion says:
December 3, 2015 at 11:08 pm
@Drew, (round one – Drew is the hero)
Perhaps you did or not converse with your elders.
Based on your comments, you mention key words, such as faith and strong beliefs. Then you acknowledge the flip-flops or changes of the organization. In one of your previous comments, you said, “man changes ideas for ‘new light’ but Jehovah doesn’t”, your comments make Jehovah look confused and clueless to make a correct decision. A lesser god of no value.
No one was denying your faith or beliefs. You have misunderstood our perspective.
If your up for another challenge, (round 2) consider the following and converse with your elders, and ask, ‘to find fault or the message in error’, then ask to explain to you, so you can enlighten us.
The task:
‘why does the organization continue to flip-flop on doctrines’,? According to G.Jackson (GB) he testified and said they (GB) are Guardians-of-Doctrine (do you see a word trend G-O-D)
Why does it protect child abuser’s within your congregation and remain in your presence?
The abuser’s and the crime are never reported to the police. Do you believe Jesus Christ or Jehovah, would do the same?
Do you believe unconditional brotherly love is true and real inside your congregation?
Of which an elder or the members of your congregation would stop everything he’s doing and go and visit an unbeliever at his death bed, knowing well his sins are about to be paid in full (Rom.,6:23) and never visit this person? What are the elders thinking.?
Ask yourself, ‘If holy spirit is really guiding and blessing the organization, then please explain to All of us, the serious legal and financial problems Watchtower Corporation is currently (2015) experiencing.
Soon, the legal courts will decide the state of affairs of WT Corporation.
The last question to ask your elders, ‘why would Jehovah, use his holy spirit and direct the WT to purchase 250 acres of toxic waste land in Warrick NY?
Then use free labor – of your friends and expose them at risk? (major lawsuits coming from the volunteers)
Get back with your results, to determine who wins round 2.
I’m happy for your continued research about your doubts.
Peace out
Reply
Drew says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:48 am
@minion I will ask and return with the answers you seek by Sunday.
Reply
Albert says:
December 2, 2015 at 10:25 pm
I think part of the issue may be the fact that these types of organizations seem to attract extreme personalities. Individuals who crave uniqueness and will often adopt a belief system that will set them apart from others. However after discovering that their beliefs are false they redirect their efforts toward equally “unique” but far less regulated belief systems. Or in some cases they completely abandone and even resent the idea of an organized structure of beliefs connected to a specific religion and instead become an anchorite. Worst of all are the ones who after being set free from the organization become bitter reflections of those from whom they were liberated. It may be a side effect of the number of years these individuals have spent fighting a war that they realize no longer exists. The drive to fight is still there but a new war is needed, a new enemy toward which they can direct their efforts. I believe Raymond Franz’s second book In Search Of Christian Freedom had a chapter that I feel is very apropos. The fourth chapter describes recurring patterns and specifically describes the recurring patterns of religiously minded individuals attempting to form and govern a belief structure. Often times the founders of these religious groups leave their particular denominations because of practices that they deem unacceptable. However these ones after some years often adopt similar if not the same practices and essentially become the evil which they swore to fight against. It’s unfortunate but you see this in the exJW community. Wile verbally stating to detest the silencing methods and intimidation tactics used by the organization they often employ similar methods to those who do not prescribe to their particular dogmas. I sincerely hope that their efforts do not dissuade you from continuing your work. It’s only because of people like you who present a rational and concise analysis of the organization, that Objective, reasonable, logically minded individuals can hear a rational presentation of the truth. For years I was convinced that the exJW movement had no legitimacy and was everything that the society made them out to be. This was due to individuals like those whom you described. It is only because of people like you and Paul Grundy that I was able to see that there were rational and sincere men and women within the movement. People who simply wanted open and honest discussion and the freedom to reason and come to conclusions without investigation being dissuaded or even criminalized by an organization. I guess all I have to say is keep your head up, you have a lot to be proud of. Because of you many people are waking up, for some (I should say most) your videos and articles are exactly what they need. There will always be controversy no matter what position is taken. Unfortunately that’s just human nature. However with issues like this
the lines are usually drawn between the rational and the fanatical, and I for one am glad that you are on the side of reason. Keep up the good work Lloyd
Reply
Ruthlee says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:41 am
Albert this is superb reasoning cheers ruthlee
Reply
Man from the lions pit says:
December 6, 2015 at 10:50 pm
Well said Albert ! Thanks for your perspective !
Reply
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The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
avatar
Posted on December 2, 2015
There is a war going on among apostates, but it is no reason for gloating by Jehovah's Witnesses
There is a war going on among apostates, but it is no reason for gloating by Jehovah’s Witnesses
At the beginning of October I produced and participated in a video featuring 62 Jehovah’s Witness apostates from all over the world. The video has so far attracted more than 24,000 views.
Our message to believing JWs was simple: apostates are NOT your enemies. Apostates are simply JWs who have summoned the bravery to subject their cherished beliefs to objective scrutiny and logic, based on which they have decided to reject irrational, corrosive teachings and practices, and start afresh.
As should by now be obvious, I am (and always will be) a proud apostate. I am immensely relieved to have discovered, while still relatively young, that the beliefs passed on to me by my parents were false. I also derive great pleasure and personal satisfaction from being involved in raising awareness of the harm caused by cults such as Watchtower through my activism work.
But being a JW apostate does not mean I support and endorse the behavior, methods and agenda of ALL other JW apostates. Just because I come from a cult in which “unity” of thought and action is demanded, this does not oblige me to nurture similar “unity” to some mirror organization or community.
For example, a year ago I took the decision to distance myself from apostates who engage in aggressive forms of activism after I noticed an increase in videos being shared on Facebook showing certain individuals harassing Jehovah’s Witnesses on the street and at their places of worship.
Even though I didn’t name any names, or target anyone in particular, by merely stating the obvious on this issue (i.e. aggressive confrontation of cult victims is not conducive to their rehabilitation) I was subjected to a barrage of abuse and slander culminating in my being labelled a sexual predator, a stalker, a cyber bully, a cult leader and a wife beater by two individuals in particular – Mike and Kim Brooks, of New Mexico.
Since then, Mike and Kim, while insisting that I refrain from any criticism of them, seem to have set up camp as “Cedars Haters HQ.” Over the past 12 months they made two more videos with me as the subject, and have attracted a small army of similarly-fixated, mostly-Christian evangelical “haters” from across the ex-JW community.
In one of these videos, Mike Brooks threatened me with physical violence if I ever set foot in New Mexico. The “crime” that warranted a violent attack on me was my failure to apologize to another person for something within an arbitrarily-defined time period.
In the second video, both Mike and Kim condemned me for giving away an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience to my YouTube subscribers. Though the pair bemoaned the breach of copyright represented by my unauthorized copies, which were printed by a friend, both seemed oblivious to the fact that copyright laws are equally applicable to digital PDF copies, such as the PDF copy Kim Brooks admitted to having in the same video (and which was even being distributed on their website when their video was uploaded).*
A ‘community’ divided
Since first getting involved in activism work in 2011 I have had to deal with an unrelenting tide of criticism from fellow ex-JWs. Even my first attempts at setting up a survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which led to this website being launched, attracted controversy. Mike and Kim’s crusade against me, which is so clearly driven by deep resentment of my atheist views, is just the latest in a long line of aggravation I have become accustomed to dealing with.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that the majority of criticism of my work comes, not from Watchtower, but from my fellow ex-JWs. This, in my view, underscores just how damaging and corrosive the Watchtower cult is. Those who leave can be riddled with so much resentment and frustration that many can’t help but re-direct it at their fellow ex-members, who in their troubled minds become more worthy of criticism than Watchtower itself.
At times these “haters” get me down. I am, after all, only human and susceptible to sustained threats and abuse directed at me and my family. At other times I am able to shrug off the negativity and press on with my work. But with this latest “copyright” fiasco I feel something has changed, which is why I have decided to write this article. I assume my readers and YouTube subscribers value my treating them like adults and telling it like it is, and by pointing out the elephant in the room I will hopefully prepare you all for what lies ahead.
I have long understood that the so-called ex-JW “community” (I prefer to call it a movement) is composed of factions. You might be unaware of these factions if your only interaction with ex-JWs is brief forays on social media or forums. But when you deal with ex-JWs on a day-to-day basis as I do, the factions are all too obvious, and encompass two principle areas.
The Activism Spectrum
The first area, or spectrum, concerns activism. The following graphic gives you a rough sketch of the various mindsets…
activism-spectrum2At one end of the spectrum you have aggressive activists, who advocate confronting JWs on the street and in kingdom halls. A common defense of aggressive activism is: “All forms of activism are equally good, and different forms of activism work on different kinds of people.” My reply to this argument is that it overlooks how complex and deeply-entrenched cult indoctrination can be, and the delicacy and sensitivity required in disentangling someone from it.
Saying that all forms of activism are equally good is like saying all forms of dentistry are equally good. Just as a bad dentist can end up doing more harm than good, so can an activist who believes in storming into kingdom halls and berating cult victims as a means of helping them.
On the opposite end of the activism scale you have anti-activists, including JW apologists for Watchtower (but also some apostates) who oppose any attempts to wake up JWs from their indoctrination. You may consider it unthinkable to have such a mindset, but I have an awakened uncle who embraces it unashamedly. The attitude of awakened JWs who are against activism can be summed up as: “Thanks to the work of activists I’m now awake, but waking anyone else up through activism is distasteful. All the Witnesses still inside can fend for themselves.”
“Strategic activists” are those who take full advantage of online resources, including blogs and social media, to make it as easy as possible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to awaken without resorting to harassment or confrontation. You don’t need to have a blog or YouTube channel to be a strategic activist. You can get involved in strategic activism simply by supporting and promoting other strategic activists, or by sharing links to important articles or videos that may prove helpful in prompting JWs to start thinking for themselves.
“Armchair activists” is my description for usually-anonymous ex-JWs who for various reasons don’t do any activism themselves, but who offer guidance on how they would do it from the sidelines. Armchair activists can exert either a positive or negative influence. Their guidance ranges from constructive criticism and helpful advice to fierce attacks on the methods, motives and character of those actually involved in activism. There is at least one forum I can think of where armchair activists seem to be in the majority.
Non-activists are those, like my wife and many other friends of mine, who are simply grateful to have escaped Watchtower with their wits intact. They neither criticize activism nor involve themselves in it – they just dust themselves down and get on with their lives.
The Belief Spectrum
The second area of “factions,” and perhaps the area that effects me the most personally, is that of belief.
And it is much simpler to explain.
evangelical-atheist
Over the last four years, many will have noticed the tone of my articles and videos follow my journey from skeptical Christian, to agnostic, to agnostic atheist. Throughout this journey I have always striven to be as respectful towards believers as possible.
I understand that some people need religion in their lives, and though I find it both obsolete and in most cases repulsive, I personally cannot envision a world where everyone is atheist and nobody is religious. I also acknowledge that the majority of JWs who find themselves on this website will recoil if they feel coerced to abandon belief in God altogether.
It is for these reasons that JWsurvey has, and always will have, a “religious neutrality” policy displayed in our comments section, whereby it is prohibited to evangelize either religion OR atheism on these pages (i.e. “This belief system works for me – and everyone else had better embrace it too!”).
But, though I try to be as respectful and accommodating as possible towards believers, there is an evangelical Christian faction within the ex-JW movement, and it does not play by the same rules.
While some Christians jumped to my defense over last year’s aggressive activism debacle, rightly acknowledging that harassing cult victims is anything but loving and Christlike, they were worryingly few in number. Aggressive activism and evangelical Christianity, it seems, usually go hand in hand.
Worse still, though I hate that this is so, as of this moment I can probably count on one hand the number of friends I have who are both Christian and genuinely respectful of my lack of belief, including my right to criticize religion on my YouTube channel.
And I can understand the reason for this.
Though there are liberal Christians out there who embrace a “live and let live” approach, and who aren’t remotely concerned as to whether others around them embrace their beliefs or not, the simple truth is: evangelism is a part of Christianity. It is mandated for Christians by Jesus himself. (Matthew 28:19)
Christians who take their faith seriously are supposed to think that anyone who doesn’t share their belief in Jesus as savior has slightly (or radically) bleaker future prospects than they do. In that context, promoting one’s beliefs when the opportunity presents itself, such as when others are discussing religion on a website or forum, is only to be expected. In their minds, they are doing us all a favor.
But rather than its members simply extolling their own understanding of God and his requirements for humans, for some time now the evangelical Christian faction has adopted a troubling new approach: stamping out the fledgling ex-JW atheist faction wherever it manifests itself.
Again, I only need to dip into the way my mind was calibrated as a JW, and the motivation behind this offensive by the evangelical wing is as clear as day.
As a JW, apostates were not just slightly-misguided fellow creatures who were pitied but still worthy of respect. They were the enemy. The gloves were off. Apostates were agents of Satan himself who were to be, not just avoided at all costs, but resisted and repudiated if they made incursions into God’s organization and its all-important kingdom work.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the same righteous indignation fuels the hate-strewn rants of the likes of the Brooks’ and Alun Williams (another even more eccentric would-be spiritual mentor), to name only a few. They will not share the same space with unbelievers. They can barely tolerate the fact that unbelievers exist, but the moment an ex-JW unbeliever such as myself opens his mouth and criticizes their cherished beliefs on a suitably well-subscribed YouTube channel, this constitutes an act of war. I become “fair game” (to coin a Scientology expression), and any tactics no matter how underhanded may be brought to bear.
No perceived flaw or slip-up is too trivial to warrant an avalanche of criticism. Even giving away an unauthorized copy of a book is to be treated with horror and disgust, and responded to with character assassinations of the most severe kind – even if the one doing the criticizing is guilty of the same indiscretion.
By this point you are probably thinking: “Ok, I get it. There is an evangelical faction in the exJW community, and it has its knives sharpened for anyone like you who espouses atheism. But what is different? How has anything changed?”
The Christian evangelical faction has, to my knowledge, always been mostly populated by demonstrably-eccentric conspiracy theorists, obsessed with freemasonry, subliminal images and the illuminati, who are almost a parody of themselves. But, like Donald Trump, against all odds they are gaining in influence, and have already attracted a respectable portfolio of more eloquent, credible spokespersons to rally to their banner.
This latest copyright fiasco came as a surprise, not because of the ferocity of the attack over such a trivial issue, but because it succeeded in duping a number of fellow activists – including a couple of respectable Christians I was hitherto friends with, who gave me bear hugs last time I met them in person, and who have featured on my YouTube channel.
I was previously unaware of there being any animosity between this couple (who I can’t name) and myself, and they were even friends with me on Facebook. But one of them made it clear in a private email exchange with a mutual friend that, because I offered an unauthorized copy of a book on my YouTube channel, I am to be considered “toxic,” a “liability” and “bad for business.”
The vitriolic tirade in which these sentiments appeared was apparently an ill-judged attempt to use the copyright issue as leverage to turn my friend and certain other fellow activists against me and my work. The person was, in effect, outing themselves as a “Cedars hater” and siding with Mike and Kim Brooks.
Again, you are probably thinking: “So what? Why do I need to know all this? Why do you even need to write about it? By writing about it you are only exacerbating an already fraught situation, and possibly putting off JWs who will leap on all this as evidence that life outside Watchtower is full of bickering and turmoil.”
I am writing about this situation because it matters – or should matter to those who value free inquiry and intellectual honesty over religious zealotry and unfounded dogma. Things will not improve by ignoring the underlying problem, the elephant in the room. Whether I like it or not, a bitter war between the evangelical and atheist factions in the ex-JW community is raging – and it has just escalated.
A war I don’t want
I did not sign up to be an activist four years ago because I sought confrontation and controversy. Believe it or not, I loath confrontation and will avoid it where possible. But whether I like fighting or not, fighting – if only of the defensive sort – is precisely what I must now do if I am to continue despite sustained efforts to silence my atheism by those who insist everyone should believe as they do.
What matters to me is not power, prestige, money or popularity. If I wanted those things, there are far easier ways of obtaining them than being a secular-minded ex-JW anti-cult activist. What matters to me is one thing, and one thing alone: the fight for truth. It is a fight that has been going on for centuries, fought by great minds and inspirational individuals who have made immense individual sacrifices to birth a society as tolerant and progressive as the one we now enjoy.
But nothing can be taken for granted, and those who insist on inflicting their ignorance on everyone else are far from disappearing in the rear view mirror. The struggle continues and effects all of us, whether it is creationists rallying for equal time in the classroom, or gays and lesbians being denied equal rights, or jihadists trying to burn civilization as we know it. And in my own corner of this global battlefield, I refuse to keel over and capitulate to evangelical thugs such as Mike and Kim Brooks or those they succeed in enticing to flock to their anti-intellectual crusade.
That is why I wanted to let my readers and YouTube subscribers know that, from now on, I will be more open than ever about my atheism, and my channel will feature more videos specifically on that subject. It is painfully apparent from my interactions with Christian evangelical ex-JWs that many of them are completely unaware of the arguments for unbelief, and I want to do my part to redress the balance.
JWsurvey, meanwhile, will remain for the most part as it is now – a welcoming environment for both the religious and secular-inclined alike. Scriptures will continue to be freely cited where necessary, because even though Christianity is objectively without evidence as a belief system, it just so happens that the bible is still in conflict with the teachings and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses in a plethora of areas.
Finally, a message…
To my critics I say: Get off my back, or prepare for a long and bitter struggle, because I didn’t break free from years of cult servitude to be told to “shut up,” and I won’t be bullied. And even if you should succeed in silencing me, ultimately the wind is in the sails of free inquiry, science and reason. Others will pick up my baton when I finish, and I am already far from alone.
To my friends I say: Thank you so much for your support, but PLEASE refrain from attacking those who attack me. By doing so you only bolster their persecution complex, and rather than take out their frustration on you they will only escalate their onslaught.
And to Jehovah’s Witnesses who might be reading this, I say: The fact that ex-JW apostates are fighting each other is not evidence that you are not in a cult. It only means that Watchtower indoctrination has a range of extremely unpleasant side-effects, which include suspicion, paranoia, jealousy, anger and bitterness. All of those things can be found in abundance in kingdom halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but at least those of us on the outside have the ability to choose who our friends are for ourselves. And the longer you stay in the cult, the more pronounced those characteristics may be when you are finally able to walk away.
new-cedars-signature3
*For the record, I do not say there was nothing wrong in my offering an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience. I merely say that apologies need to go to those to whom they are owed, and any breach of copyright is strictly an issue between me and the copyright holder. And if you insist on besieging me with complaints on the matter, if you are fair and consistent you must similarly rebuke everyone who has involved themselves in downloading or distributing a PDF of the book – something the copyright holder has hitherto done nothing, to my knowledge, to halt. Others have complained that the JWsurvey.org logo has been added to the copy I was giving away, but the logo was added by my friend, not me – not that I think doing so was the heinous crime people are framing it as. And if you are to chastise me simply because my website is advertised on someone else’s copy of a book, you also need to level similar criticism at the owner of the JWfacts.com website, which is also endorsed.
Further reading…
◾Why I can no longer support aggressive forms of activism against Jehovah’s Witnesses
◾My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
Related video…
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237 Responses to The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
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Cobb says:
December 2, 2015 at 10:29 pm
On the Mike & Kim fiasco I was secretly kinda hoping you would just laugh it off and ignore it. I saw the John Wayne ‘this town ain’t big enough for the two of us’ video Mike did and I was deeply embarrassed on his behalf. I understand why you had to respond. It was childish, but more seriously, the threat, though obviously not intended to be followed through, was violent. I abhor violence and I don’t think it is funny or to be joked about, and I said as much to them. Keep doing what you do with intelligence and humor and I’ll keep watching. I’ll never be an atheist, but I’ll never be an evangelical or belong to any religion or live by any ‘holy book’ again. There are a lot of us out there who aren’t in either camp, but still enjoy a good dust up of the Watchtower done with such skill.
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Jacqueline says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:35 am
OMG Lloyd, I read your whole dialogue and am shocked and sadden you still get so much grief and crap, are people that crazy about there beliefs they will attack you.
I belong to the group of Ex jw Australia and
New Zealand and we meet up we have so many difference of opinions and beliefs .
I’m a agnostic with a view there is a creator yet I believe in the earth. I hope you are successful in what ever you put your mind too and I wish you well .
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Mary Strauser says:
December 3, 2015 at 12:25 pm
Mike seemed to be wearing a Davy Crockett outfit and I too was embarrassed for him. It was not well thought out.
They have a right to critique others, of course, but it could have been done with tact, respect and love.
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Bret says:
December 2, 2015 at 11:18 pm
Maybe Rutherford was on to something whe he had those early JW’s wearing sandwich boards saying “Religion is a snare and a racket”…..
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Bret says:
December 2, 2015 at 11:40 pm
I heard an interesting idea about religion, supposedly based upon linguistic anthropologists belief that Religion is “A language virus” and inhibits critical thinking. That would make sense because looking through history there is not a single language group of people that did not have religion. In fact all religion is based upon the fear of death and the life in the here-after whether it’s heaven, paradise earth, hell, reincarnation or even complete destruction or non existence every single language group of people believe in a god or gods….
That’s seems to confirm why you can meet a very intelegent person who is a critical thinker until it comes to their faith and then out comes the “crack-pot”, who believes in flying monkeys…
Yep… Gotta be a language virus…
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RC says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:22 am
Hi Lloyd,
Speaking as an outsider, i truly believe you have done an wonderful job with this site. This is one of the most helpful sites (second only to JWFacts) for resources . Your videos were truly awesome in debunking the GB myth. Keep up the good work. The common sense and wit in your videos and blog are enough to counter any claim without having to resort to theology. Unfortunately , as i learnt to my bitter sorrow,when it comes to religion, common sense is not so common.
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Stonedragon says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:19 am
Hi Cedars,
I’ve followed your blog for years and your journey from theist to atheist. Although I don’t agree with the conclusion of atheism you now hold, I still deeply respect you and your blog.
Be assured if you ever came to my house or if I ever have the pleasure of meeting you, I will give you a big hug, meal and somewhere to stay. I mean that.
It is a shame that you feel that you have to go to ‘war’ with your detractors and in some way, this might actually signal to them that they are winning. In my view I don’t think you should give them that satisfaction.
You have shown great restraint, balance and respect to Jehovah’s Witnesses and to be honest, I doubt whether I would have been able to have done so. Ironically, as an atheist you have shown those ‘haters’ what turning the other cheek means. Please don’t give up now.
As an ex-JW, but remaining as a Christian theist, I have a loathing for the so called Governing Body. I could not politely express my views and the contempt that I hold them in on this forum. But somehow, with restraint, sensitivity and clever writing you have managed to be a voice of reason in a sphere as you pointed out that can be very acrimonious. I fear if you change tact, you could loose some of readership and support.
In anycase, whatever happens in the future I will still follow you. I would just ask that you don’t become strident and shrill, like Richard Dawkins. I know that his aggressive type of neo-atheism dosen’t even appeal to many atheist.
If you are ever in London, drop me an email as I would love to meet up with you and take you out for a meal or drink. As I said before, you’ve done a great work and atheist or otherwise, I see you as a fellow human, just trying to find out the answers we are all looking for.
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Cheryl says:
December 3, 2015 at 3:18 am
Hi Cedars
I too am an atheist and it was a natural fit for me to go from JW to atheist. I explored all the major religions when I left “the truth” as a rebellious action. You know; just because now I could. And found them all culturally interesting and valid as a belief system for others but not for me. Cults are very attractive to fascists. And unfortunately fascists can be found everywhere. Especially in fundamental religions. These abusers clearly just have fascist beliefs no matter what religion they belong to. Putting yourself out there as you do lays you open to attack. Personally I prefer your wifes way. Just dust yourself down and carry on. But that doesn’t mean we don’t need people like you that carry the torch for those of us that cant, wont or don’t. So don’t think you don’t have support. Good luck and keep up the good fight.
Cheryl
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Kat says:
December 3, 2015 at 3:25 am
I am an ex JW and have embraced Christianity when I left what I believe to be more about Christ than any religion, I am not an evangelical.
I just want to say it does not bother me if a person is atheist or not that is your business and yes I have listened and read both sides of the argument and find it interesting and rewarding, learning should never cease
I come for the information as I do all utube channels as well, to help JW.
Thank you cedars for all your time work.
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Debra says:
December 3, 2015 at 3:42 am
Thank you for your thoughts on all this. I find that I am so sad to hear the depth of what is going on. While I have been “out” for a very long time, a few years ago, I stumbled on all these newer exjw videos by all of those you mention, including yours, and found them all to be helpful in their variety of personalities and viewpoints in laying down some lingering things from my hurts from being a jw. And then I watched as mud slinging began and essentially backed away from many of them. I would like to believe that all of these people, in their deepest intention, truly want to help those in to get out-as do you. I appreciate your candor very much. It does seem that some have turned to a more “watch out Watchtower-we’re gonna punch you where it hurts” sort of vindictive reaction. I understand that we all have that part of the healing to go through-but I don’t think we need to “live” there for too long. Too bad the exjw community cannot be united. But it is what it is–it seems it is like what can be found in any family. You have the crazy uncles, the zealots, the mellow go with the flow types, the backstabbers, and on and on. And as in any family, we choose which ones we will be close to. And if we were to look at it, like I used to, that we are “brothers” or “sisters” in that we have in common this experience of having been a jw-it can be really upsetting to discover that even in the exjw community there cannot be found “paradise”. But, what is not ok is attacking anyone they way you have been attacked. I would say the same if they were being attacked this way. I guess this is just a long way of saying that after being a jw, indoctrinated in being an expert in being intolerant, harsh, judgmental and having a superiority complex (we are the only ones that have the “truth”), I find it so distasteful to see that so many activist exjws have not come to find the place of tolerance, acceptance, and even love, for their fellow escapees-allowing that all of us are on our individual healing journeys. Thanks for keeping on with the good work you are doing. I for one will continue to support you.
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Caltanzee says:
December 3, 2015 at 3:54 am
A few weeks ago I came across a video by the said mikey and kim which I find to be downright repulsive.Full of angry hateful threatening speech..It was so repulsive that I strongly chastised them as to the wrongfulness of their actions and promptly unsubscribe from their channel..The scriptures say that any man of violence Jehovah certainly hates..The trouble with mikey and kim is:They are deeply hurt and in great mental anguish over the lost of family relationship due to watchtower shunning policy..And as such they let that bitterness make them lash out angrily and bitterly not just at watchtower but at anyone they view as a threat to their vindictive egos..Anyone joining them will become just like them.. On the other hand: Is it not also an infringement when they obtain and distribute elders letters and other watchtower material on watchtower.expose. ??? How can they justify criticizing others, when in fact they themselves are guilty of the same things…Mr John Cedars: You have done a great deal in a responsible and respectful way to awaken and enlighten others, The same as Jw facts..Don’t waste your time with folly, as mikey and kim just wants to be the only voice that is heard. I hope Mark and Cora do not become duped by them…mikey and kim cares only about they own egos..Bottom line.
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Matt says:
December 3, 2015 at 3:58 am
Chin up Cedars!
To the Yin of “Haters gonna hate” is the Yang of “Lovers gonna love”!
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ForestDaughter says:
December 3, 2015 at 5:49 am
I can’t add a lot to what’s already been said, but I’d just like to add my voice to the supporters. I do hope that this awful debacle isn’t going to cause you and your family any lasting damage and that you please take care of yourself and your health. As someone who is still suffering some residual effects of C-PTSD & anxiety, and find it difficulty to be an effective activist when speaking with those who are still in the org, I can only be in complete awe of the hard work, time and dedication that you put into your positive activism.
I’d also like to thank you for replying to my comment on ‘that’ YouTube about your publication, and taking it in the spirit in which it was meant (FoxyDevonLady on YouTube); that as someone in publisher explaining the laws of copyright and it’s terminology, and not as someone caught up in the arguments.
All the very best wishes, Lloyd. Chin up, chuck! :)
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:04 am
Going from one religion/cult that preaches it’s the only truth to another religion/cult that preaches it’s the only truth is like jumping from the frying pan to the fire. lol
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:14 am
Getting back to our old friends the WT, I recently viewed a media exposee (I believe it was on an Australian show called “Sunday”) on YouTube, in regard to the cases of JW child abuse in Australia (kudos to the Aussie press!!!!!). Reference was made to the Jehovah’s Witness organization as a “Pedophile’s Paradise”. So much for the “Spiritual Paradise”…RIP.
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:23 am
Frankly, I think it’s a good thing “apostates” don’t work together as one big “Army.” It’s more honest that way. Everyone is free to “rage against the machine” in their own way and their own good time. Now WT has to fight a war on 50 fronts instead of just 1. Historical precedent: WWII — The French Resistance, The Dutch Resistance, The Greek Resistance, even the GERMAN Resistance!! etc. The Nazis must have had their hands full by the time the Big Boys stormed the beaches on D-Day!
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:30 am
To any current JW’s reading this: Ever notice how the elders and their wives SUCK YOUR ENERGY by constantly demanding your admiration and deference?
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Drew says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:38 am
Please elaborate more on what you mean by that statement. I dont quite follow.
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:35 am
Jael, Barak, Ezekiel, Mephibosheth. Man, am I glad I’m OUT! No more crazy Hebrew names to remember. What a pain in the ass!
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Tara says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:18 am
Shadrach, Meshach and to bed we go
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Markie says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:38 am
Why would you say that your fellow ex- jws have “troubled minds”? It seems like your borrowing that term from your so called “deluded men” from Brooklyn with a little twist. I find it kind of funny that people here are posting how balanced your views are about the Watchtower. I can’t agree with that. But if your helping people that have been spiritually abused by their fellow JWs keep it up. I have seen the Brooks couple and they appear to be a couple of idiots.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:38 am
Hi Lloyd, I have been studying the character of people I read in Watchtower’s Publication… but believe me, you will have to struggle with these “evangelical apostates” and reason will prevail.
After I got out the Watchtower, here in Africa I could not believe to have a balanced apostate website like yours… Some “apostates” discussion I could read were about stories of CROSS vs STAKE, Jesus is or Savior and God and stupid stories like those… until REASON (not god or Jesus) directed me to your rational reason…
They will be defeated… They are enemies of reason!! Let them discuss Crosses and Stakes and keep up good attitudes and be strategic.
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Paul ngugi says:
December 4, 2015 at 5:04 am
Hi,
Am from Kenya and often i travel to Rwanda.. Think we can hook up….. and discuss more
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John Walsh says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:45 am
Hi Lloyd, I do suspect that this harassment is starting to get you down again, or maybe that is my fear.
I looked around a bit before subscribing to JW Survey and I can assure you that you by `far and away’ have struck the perfect balance in what you present, compared to any other activist I have checked out.
Regarding Mike and Kim I watched a video of theirs some time back and I read people prety well and quickly, as I have been in business since I was 16, and learnt quickly that skill was a must to master. So I have not revisited Mike and Kim’ site since the experience of the first 10min of that video. Guess that is my built in protection barrier at work now days.
For any who bother to read this post, I ask that you consider financial support for Lloyd for his great work, if you have a similar appreciation. I give via Patreon probably not as much as I should, but it is easy and safe to do so, and very important as someone like Lloyd with all of his great qualities and skills do not come along often. He needs to support his family and somehow find the time to do what many of us can not do. In that sense he represents us.
Thanks again Lloyd.
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MimiLove says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:03 am
When I first started looking for some answers I stumbled across these two. I found them repulsive ignorant and hateful. I didn’t watch them again until last night after I read your post and yes my first impression of them was correct. I haven’t made it to the athiest side completely however it seems that since I was released mentally from the JW doctrine I don’t want any religion holding me hostage again!
I love how logical you are and have even been able to convince my husband to start reading some of your stuff and believe me no other person has been able to get thru to him. So thank you and take care.
Keep up the good work!
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peggy says:
December 3, 2015 at 10:45 am
MiniLove,
Like you, while searching for reason and truth, also stumbled across the Brooks. I found them to be idiots. Then I found this site and I knew it was logical, respectful, and I love it. I hope your husband will appreciate the offerings on this site, too.
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:10 am
Sorry for all the posts, but I’m on a bit of a roll (strong coffee).
I’ve always been amused by the Jehovah’s Witness philosophy (yes, I know it’s technically a bible-based “belief”, whatever) that all human conflicts can be solved with “love.” It doesn’t take a Ph.D. in Political Science to realize that the causes of human conflict are many, varied, and complex. Quite often, it takes long, difficult, complex negotiations in order to avert a war. eg. Cuban Missile Crisis
Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, in their “genius”, have reduced all of this (what we adults refer to as REALITY) to a simple-minded mantra reminiscent of the old “Hippie” generation, or worse yet, to the mental level of a Dr. Seuss children’s story.
They superstitiously believe that by repeating a certain word like “love” or “jehovah” over and over and over again, they will “generate” some kind of mystic “effect”. I know they don’t CONSCIOUSLY believe this, but their behavior betrays their SUBCONSCIOUS beliefs (or at least, FANTASIES). This is truly psychotic behavior. Psychiatric professionals have a running joke: Normal people build castles in the sky. Psychotics LIVE in them.
Their ideas and methods are just as nonsensical as those who believe World Peace can be achieved if only everyone smoked Pot all the time. Sure, there may be peace, but there would be a hell of a lot more traffic accidents!
Repeating the same words over and over AD NAUSEUM does not accomplish a goddamned thing, except making one look very foolish, simple-minded, and IGNORANT.
Ironically, die-hard Jehovah’s Witnesses are EXACTLY the type of mindless zombies who would pick up a machete and hack their neighbor to pieces at the drop of a hat, if ordered to by their superiors, say, hypothetically, over the radio? (remember the Rwandan Genocide?), or perhaps JW Broadcasting??? I’m not trying to frighten or shock anyone, just trying to make a point, that if you peel away the CHEAP facade, you see something entirely different.
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:21 am
“Would you like Green Eggs and Ham? Would you like them, Sam I am?”
Save the Dr. Seuss for the kids, Watchtower.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:25 am
@anonymous4
You are right. I live in Rwanda and joined Jehovah’s Witnesses after the horrors of the Genocide you are talking about… I thought I was joining a different people until I realized the Watchtower uses exactly the same ideology which led to the Genocide and decided to quit as I could witness first hand that I had joined the same people and the same ideology.
Look for instance what they have written about the Genocide:
*** w95 1/1 p. 7 par. 10 Triumphing Over Satan and His Works ***
Hundreds of our brothers and sisters were killed. But in one congregation of 65 Kingdom publishers, where 13 were killed, meeting attendance increased to 170 by August 1994
*** w11 9/1 p. 3 Is There Someone Behind All Evil? ***
“I SHOOK hands with the devil.” So said the commander of the United Nations forces in Rwanda, reflecting on their failure to stop the genocide in that land during 1994. Commenting on the unbelievable savagery at that time, another observer stated: “If someone still dares to deny Satan, meet me at a mass grave in Rwanda.” Are such atrocities really the work of the Devil?
You cannot imagine how JWs have increased as consequences of the Genocide and GB is not ashamed to enjoy it publicly!!!!
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:38 am
Without trying to cause any racial tension, I see Jehovah’s Witnesses more and more as a White Man’s religion. It seems to be one of the tools the White Man uses to dominate the World. No self-respecting “Nigga'” like me would buy into such Honky jive, not anymore. Sure, they brainwashed me as a child. They initially had the advantage, the upper hand, and, yes, I bought it for a while, but I finally squirmed out from under that bootheel. “White man speak with forked tongue.”
P.S. No offence to anyone. I have white friends. I even consider myself to be kind of off-white. But JIVE is JIVE. Not gonna be fooled by no JIVE TURKEY never again!!!!!!!
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:42 am
…no jive turkey of ANY color or creed…white, black, brown, yellow, red, green, pink, purple, or Martian!
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Cobb says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:04 am
I’m wondering if you are being sarcastic or serious. All I can say is that in the South, congregations that are near 100% black are common. My mom’s congregation is probably 80-90% black. There are no racial barriers to being duped.
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JUST OFFAL says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:43 am
It is a sad and painful thing to witness ( no pun intended ) the social dementia of those who have lost their purpose. Remember Lloyd, attack…. equals fear…. and fear is what motivates this kind of unwarranted viciousness.
Though it is more than generous on your part to identify as an agnostic/atheist for the benefit of your readers I believe that people are in a constant flux of moral and intellectual evolution that has many layers, none of which can ever really be defined as the final layer. Most thinking people understand this reflexively while those who are consigned to obey more primitive human emotions simply see it as a target that must be destroyed in their frantic search for the finish line that does not actually exist.
With the addition of more and greater knowledge we continue to grow, morph and develop into something that we hope is better in the next moment than it was in the last. No one can do any better than this no matter who they are or what they portray themselves as. The fulfillment of such a life course is evident to those who realize the instant benefits of such elevated thinking because the feedback is immediate and the indications powerfully consistent.
I don’t have to agree with all of your positions to enjoy the wonderfully honest gesture of unselfish care for fellow man that is present throughout your offerings here on the net.
Thanks again
JO
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:50 am
Suggested name change: from Jehovah’s Witnesses to Jivehovah’s Witnesses :)
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:00 am
It’s hard to believe that anyone would still pursue religion, after the JW Experience.
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Tara says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:24 am
Lol hit the decaff bro 😉 I’ve only had one cup of java this am and can’t keep up :)
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Robert67 says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:19 pm
It’s definitely a scam
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Jamie Fremont says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:13 am
I am an active jw. This is my favorite website and I check it every day I can. It is the respect, wonderful writing, and clear logic that makes it wonderful. Please keep up the good work Lloyd.
I can’t take the evangelical or aggressive sites or channels. They wear on my nerves.
Thank you Lloyd.
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William Draper says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:15 am
Don’t agree about your atheism , but otherwise I appreciate your work . The Book ‘ Crises of Conscience ‘ should have been made available to all jw or ex jw , at no cost , a long time ago .
Think about your atheism views more seriously .
my twitter site ” Complain_2_EPA”. Criminal activity ongoing more than 12 years
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Caroline says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:32 am
Lloyd, I always enjoy every video you produce and every article you have on jwsurvey. I appreciate the time you put into your videos and jwsurvey. I go to this site a lot during the day and I try and read every comment. It has helped me get through this awful position I am in, with being marked by my congregation for nothing that I did wrong except to question the motives of the Organization.
I know most all the Witnesses are ignorant of the real reason for the religion of JW’s and maybe two years ago, I might have done the same thing to someone else that those people are doing to me because I was so brainwashed but it hurts so much to know how the people who I thought were my friends and relatives would turn on me like they did, the moment the elders could get up in the front and give a marking talk about me, without even asking me my side of it. But, I’d rather know now what kind of “friends” they are then to be in the dark. It’s when a person comes right out and says how they feel about something like their religion or their belief in the Bible, is when you find out who your real “friends” really are.
I am brave enough now to tell people that I don’t believe in the Bible any more and the looks on their faces are of horror. They picture me as a person with horns coming out of my head. I can see it in their faces, the moment it comes out of my mouth. But, weren’t we all trained to go from door to door and talk to atheists? Why should it be so horrifying to them to talk to me and ask me why I don’t believe in the Bible anymore? We as Witnesses were supposed to go from door to door and confront all kinds of people, either who believed in the Bible or who didn’t believe in the Bible so why not give me a good reason to believe in the Bible just the same as a person at the door?
I looked in the Reasoning Book and it has no answer to an atheist except to go to pages 146 and 147 and read what that book says to them. But how does a Witness or any “believer” answer an atheist who has some really intelligent questions? They don’t have any answers except for what the Reasoning books tells them to say.
On websites like Mike and Kim’s website and what most apologists say is to attack the personality of a non-believer instead, instead of giving some solid reasons for believing in God. If there was solid evidence, I can’t imagine anybody not believing in God. That is what we are all looking for.
It is not that I don’t believe in God. I don’t know how we got here and I don’t believe there is anybody who insists on how life began. I don’t know how life began, but to say God made it is too simple for me. I want some solid evidence before I will believe and give up my life for that God.
Most dyed-in-the wool “Christians” have been brainwashed all their lives to think that without the Bible to guide them, that a person just has to be evil. Those people are just as brainwashed as anybody belonging to any religion, who thinks they are the only ones who have the “truth”. I was like that too. I believed without asking for any “proof”. Now I want some proof.
I am glad you are going to do some videos on why you are not a believer. I don’t like to spoil people’s view of the Bible as being from God because I know it gives people a lot of comfort to read the good parts of it, but there’s so much in that “good book” that tells me it could not be from a perfect “God”.
When some of my friends who have talked to me who aren’t afraid to talk to me, I come right out and tell them I don’t believe in the Bible anymore and they seem so afraid that God is going to kill me at Armageddon but now I put the onus on them. They have to tell me why I should believe it after telling them some of the bad parts of the Bible that they don’t even know are in there.
Reply
Drew says:
December 4, 2015 at 4:50 am
Pleaae explain on what parts in the bible as an active witness we are supposed to help out any that do want to learn or ask why? Jesus didn’t turn from speaking to the Pharisee did he?
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James Broughton says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:49 am
Lloyd, what an excellent and helpful article on apostasy. I would perhaps disagree with you on your view on evangelical Christianity. If you were to visit, for example, an evangelical Church of England congregation you would find a very different approach to belief and practice from that, say, in the American Bible-belt. Jehovah’s Witnesses use the term apostasy to describe any belief system that does not conform to their own, so they would call me an apostate since I left their organisation as a teenager and am now an Anglican clergyman. However, I would not accept their term for myself and describe myself as a Christian believer. I was once asked by a Witness, not realising who I was, how long I had been “in the truth”. My reply was, “About fifty years, since I left the Watchtower Society.”
Reply
ruthlee says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:15 am
Hi Cedars isn’t this a turn up for the books! As with many of us on our journey out some develop a voracious appetite in our search for a sympathetic ear and a soapbox on occasion. I have looked at most of the you tube stuff and yours is clearly the best. Your incite and wisdom have been and continue to be so valuable to us. I am 100% a god believer (trying not to sound too evangelical). and that is exactly why I like to hear your point of view. I don’t think I will ever have the courage to make the complete jump to atheism but what I do recognize in us god types,that we are closed minded on occasions . This site strikes a balance because we all are at different stages of recovery and will wind up with differing conclusions. That is healthy and nothing to get all hot under the collar about. Those who oppose you are critical rather than critical thinkers so don’t take too much personally. We still want you to continue. Seeing as this new phase of the exjw community is in its infancy there will be teething troubles and pain but that’s all. Kids grow up don’t they? there is no need for wood on the fire. In UK there was the dissolution of the monasteries as a drastic jealous act. All it has accomplished in our history is religious change, new money men and beautiful ruins to paint and wax lyrical. Or maybe it liberated just a few from their bondage and so was worth it. Keep the site running please you are valued and this is part of history and I hope will of service in the future. Best wishes ruthlee
Reply
Tim Smith says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:39 am
Thank you Lloyd for such a frank and sincere article. I must admit that I was staunchly defending you against your latest round of attacks. Why? Because as an agnostic atheist I cherish my beliefs. They are mine and mine alone. I am done with the days of having to read and study WT publications to find out what I believe on a subject. When I was a JW I had to go somewhere other than myself to find out what I believe! Can you believe it? Now my thoughts are my very own and I cherish each and every one of them. I refuse to give up that personal sovereignty because some people do not agree with it or my personal beliefs may challenge the validity of their worldview. My attack on Mike and Kim was harsh and unrelenting. Do I regret it? No. I was defending myself as much as I was defending you. However, I do see your point that essentially it is fruitless to try and reason with them. I felt that while they were making these attacks people needed to hear the other side and not sit in some echo chamber that did not really reflect all of the differing views. Ultimately it took me down a rabbit hole where rational and fairness were obsolete in favor of unfair ad hominem attacks on anyone who had a different opinion. Please keep up your activism. I wish I could add my voice a lot more to the discussion, but unfortunately I have a wife that is very active and fully indoctrinated. I love her very much and do not want to strain our relationship, so activism is not in the cards right now. As a side note, if she watched all of this drama her views on apostates as being “mentally diseased” would be confirmed. From now on I will refrain from defending you because I do not want to feed into the psychosis of anyone who is divisive and the ultimate goal of all activists should be to help people escape the cult. Thank you for writing this article.
Reply
RC8madbrit says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:48 am
When I first started checking out anti-JW websites I saw a few ‘foam-at-the-mouth’ born again types. They simply jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. May I say that I thoroughly approve of your clear, calm, nuetrally-stanced, reasoned blogs. Keep up your good work mate.
Reply
Velvia Blue says:
December 3, 2015 at 10:18 am
Miked and Kim are angry misfits and I couldn’t imagine being members of the same congregation when I was still in the cult. But others who are ‘bitching’ and ones who have been partners up to recently and have become anti-johncedars saddens me. Its not as simple as a copy-rite issue its more of a sectarian divide. Ive followed everybody in the EXjw world and taken everybody’s experiences as encouragement and have felt emboldened to carry on. But now I feel that its time to get on with my life outside the exjw community. Disillusioned!
Reply
Dr Strabismus of Utrecht says:
December 3, 2015 at 10:25 am
A “Cease & Desist” letter? Taking a leaf out of the Scientologist’s book now, are they? Pathetic.
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Kris says:
December 3, 2015 at 11:24 am
Dear Lloyd ,
You’re obviously a kind and sensible person, your approach reminds me of Ray franz! No need to respond to some of these attacks! You are in a much higher league! We can win people over by showing kindnes and good judgement. Proving that “good people” is not something the “organization” has a patent On !
Reply
free_thinker says:
December 3, 2015 at 11:41 am
Lloyd- so sorry you are dealing with this! Please never stop doing what you do. Your writing is level-headed and intelligent and I enjoy listening to you on the podcasts and reading your website.
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Doc Obvious says:
December 3, 2015 at 11:52 am
Jack Nicholson as the president of the United States in Mars Attacks
Reply
Micah says:
December 3, 2015 at 12:19 pm
Hi Lloyd your work is awesome. Mike and kim are annoying as hell. Your work helped us break free. Take pride in that. I am an antitheist so don’t feel that you’re alone. Thanks for everything!
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mark says:
December 3, 2015 at 12:40 pm
I stumbled on this website a few years ago but seldom visit it anymore.It keeps popping up when a google anything relating to JWs.
As a believer in things we can not explain by present science,physics etc.(I don,t want to get into a debate). I think its time to change the name of this website to JWsurvey “a voice to the silent ATHEIST majority! Then maybe all those religious nut jobs might leave you alone!
Reply
phoenix_rising says:
December 3, 2015 at 12:41 pm
Lloyd you’re site and videos were 100% what I needed when I was on my way out and your site also played a large role in that. I will not name names – but honestly the parties bringing you trouble played very little in my awakening.
I often think “If I showed my believing family this would they take it seriously?” and most of the time I would think “No.”
When I saw people yelling inside KH’s during memorial and being extremely in their face in public – I was embarrassed for them because it wasn’t accomplishing anything. That sort of activism is self serving and I cannot see how it helps. It always seemed like some like to make a spectacle of themselves – and to me it comes across as borderline narcissistic.
I can speak from experience that I am educated and that kind of activism would NEVER have worked on me. I would have shut down mentally. And kudos to you for not making specific videos targeting people you don’t like. I just watched one last night from one of these factions – he’s sitting in front of a bunch of action figures in a dark room going from exhibit A) to exhibit B) on you – and all I can think of is “Doesn’t this meat head realize he isn’t in high school anymore?” Seriously you are out of the cult and this is how you are spending your time?
Now would I give you a complete pass – no – as I agree sometimes like me I can get into some back and forth dialogue with someone. But you always come across respectful and thought out. I think in your early days you allowed yourself to get a little drawn into some comment squabbles with people who disagreed with you. Nothing wrong with that – but they have been trying to hold some of your comments over your head. I think your time is too valuable to debate with some of those who seek to get a rise from you. Just my two cents.
Thank you for all you do, have done and continue to do. You have done wonders for many of us
*cheers*
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The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
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Posted on December 2, 2015
There is a war going on among apostates, but it is no reason for gloating by Jehovah's Witnesses
There is a war going on among apostates, but it is no reason for gloating by Jehovah’s Witnesses
At the beginning of October I produced and participated in a video featuring 62 Jehovah’s Witness apostates from all over the world. The video has so far attracted more than 24,000 views.
Our message to believing JWs was simple: apostates are NOT your enemies. Apostates are simply JWs who have summoned the bravery to subject their cherished beliefs to objective scrutiny and logic, based on which they have decided to reject irrational, corrosive teachings and practices, and start afresh.
As should by now be obvious, I am (and always will be) a proud apostate. I am immensely relieved to have discovered, while still relatively young, that the beliefs passed on to me by my parents were false. I also derive great pleasure and personal satisfaction from being involved in raising awareness of the harm caused by cults such as Watchtower through my activism work.
But being a JW apostate does not mean I support and endorse the behavior, methods and agenda of ALL other JW apostates. Just because I come from a cult in which “unity” of thought and action is demanded, this does not oblige me to nurture similar “unity” to some mirror organization or community.
For example, a year ago I took the decision to distance myself from apostates who engage in aggressive forms of activism after I noticed an increase in videos being shared on Facebook showing certain individuals harassing Jehovah’s Witnesses on the street and at their places of worship.
Even though I didn’t name any names, or target anyone in particular, by merely stating the obvious on this issue (i.e. aggressive confrontation of cult victims is not conducive to their rehabilitation) I was subjected to a barrage of abuse and slander culminating in my being labelled a sexual predator, a stalker, a cyber bully, a cult leader and a wife beater by two individuals in particular – Mike and Kim Brooks, of New Mexico.
Since then, Mike and Kim, while insisting that I refrain from any criticism of them, seem to have set up camp as “Cedars Haters HQ.” Over the past 12 months they made two more videos with me as the subject, and have attracted a small army of similarly-fixated, mostly-Christian evangelical “haters” from across the ex-JW community.
In one of these videos, Mike Brooks threatened me with physical violence if I ever set foot in New Mexico. The “crime” that warranted a violent attack on me was my failure to apologize to another person for something within an arbitrarily-defined time period.
In the second video, both Mike and Kim condemned me for giving away an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience to my YouTube subscribers. Though the pair bemoaned the breach of copyright represented by my unauthorized copies, which were printed by a friend, both seemed oblivious to the fact that copyright laws are equally applicable to digital PDF copies, such as the PDF copy Kim Brooks admitted to having in the same video (and which was even being distributed on their website when their video was uploaded).*
A ‘community’ divided
Since first getting involved in activism work in 2011 I have had to deal with an unrelenting tide of criticism from fellow ex-JWs. Even my first attempts at setting up a survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which led to this website being launched, attracted controversy. Mike and Kim’s crusade against me, which is so clearly driven by deep resentment of my atheist views, is just the latest in a long line of aggravation I have become accustomed to dealing with.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that the majority of criticism of my work comes, not from Watchtower, but from my fellow ex-JWs. This, in my view, underscores just how damaging and corrosive the Watchtower cult is. Those who leave can be riddled with so much resentment and frustration that many can’t help but re-direct it at their fellow ex-members, who in their troubled minds become more worthy of criticism than Watchtower itself.
At times these “haters” get me down. I am, after all, only human and susceptible to sustained threats and abuse directed at me and my family. At other times I am able to shrug off the negativity and press on with my work. But with this latest “copyright” fiasco I feel something has changed, which is why I have decided to write this article. I assume my readers and YouTube subscribers value my treating them like adults and telling it like it is, and by pointing out the elephant in the room I will hopefully prepare you all for what lies ahead.
I have long understood that the so-called ex-JW “community” (I prefer to call it a movement) is composed of factions. You might be unaware of these factions if your only interaction with ex-JWs is brief forays on social media or forums. But when you deal with ex-JWs on a day-to-day basis as I do, the factions are all too obvious, and encompass two principle areas.
The Activism Spectrum
The first area, or spectrum, concerns activism. The following graphic gives you a rough sketch of the various mindsets…
activism-spectrum2At one end of the spectrum you have aggressive activists, who advocate confronting JWs on the street and in kingdom halls. A common defense of aggressive activism is: “All forms of activism are equally good, and different forms of activism work on different kinds of people.” My reply to this argument is that it overlooks how complex and deeply-entrenched cult indoctrination can be, and the delicacy and sensitivity required in disentangling someone from it.
Saying that all forms of activism are equally good is like saying all forms of dentistry are equally good. Just as a bad dentist can end up doing more harm than good, so can an activist who believes in storming into kingdom halls and berating cult victims as a means of helping them.
On the opposite end of the activism scale you have anti-activists, including JW apologists for Watchtower (but also some apostates) who oppose any attempts to wake up JWs from their indoctrination. You may consider it unthinkable to have such a mindset, but I have an awakened uncle who embraces it unashamedly. The attitude of awakened JWs who are against activism can be summed up as: “Thanks to the work of activists I’m now awake, but waking anyone else up through activism is distasteful. All the Witnesses still inside can fend for themselves.”
“Strategic activists” are those who take full advantage of online resources, including blogs and social media, to make it as easy as possible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to awaken without resorting to harassment or confrontation. You don’t need to have a blog or YouTube channel to be a strategic activist. You can get involved in strategic activism simply by supporting and promoting other strategic activists, or by sharing links to important articles or videos that may prove helpful in prompting JWs to start thinking for themselves.
“Armchair activists” is my description for usually-anonymous ex-JWs who for various reasons don’t do any activism themselves, but who offer guidance on how they would do it from the sidelines. Armchair activists can exert either a positive or negative influence. Their guidance ranges from constructive criticism and helpful advice to fierce attacks on the methods, motives and character of those actually involved in activism. There is at least one forum I can think of where armchair activists seem to be in the majority.
Non-activists are those, like my wife and many other friends of mine, who are simply grateful to have escaped Watchtower with their wits intact. They neither criticize activism nor involve themselves in it – they just dust themselves down and get on with their lives.
The Belief Spectrum
The second area of “factions,” and perhaps the area that effects me the most personally, is that of belief.
And it is much simpler to explain.
evangelical-atheist
Over the last four years, many will have noticed the tone of my articles and videos follow my journey from skeptical Christian, to agnostic, to agnostic atheist. Throughout this journey I have always striven to be as respectful towards believers as possible.
I understand that some people need religion in their lives, and though I find it both obsolete and in most cases repulsive, I personally cannot envision a world where everyone is atheist and nobody is religious. I also acknowledge that the majority of JWs who find themselves on this website will recoil if they feel coerced to abandon belief in God altogether.
It is for these reasons that JWsurvey has, and always will have, a “religious neutrality” policy displayed in our comments section, whereby it is prohibited to evangelize either religion OR atheism on these pages (i.e. “This belief system works for me – and everyone else had better embrace it too!”).
But, though I try to be as respectful and accommodating as possible towards believers, there is an evangelical Christian faction within the ex-JW movement, and it does not play by the same rules.
While some Christians jumped to my defense over last year’s aggressive activism debacle, rightly acknowledging that harassing cult victims is anything but loving and Christlike, they were worryingly few in number. Aggressive activism and evangelical Christianity, it seems, usually go hand in hand.
Worse still, though I hate that this is so, as of this moment I can probably count on one hand the number of friends I have who are both Christian and genuinely respectful of my lack of belief, including my right to criticize religion on my YouTube channel.
And I can understand the reason for this.
Though there are liberal Christians out there who embrace a “live and let live” approach, and who aren’t remotely concerned as to whether others around them embrace their beliefs or not, the simple truth is: evangelism is a part of Christianity. It is mandated for Christians by Jesus himself. (Matthew 28:19)
Christians who take their faith seriously are supposed to think that anyone who doesn’t share their belief in Jesus as savior has slightly (or radically) bleaker future prospects than they do. In that context, promoting one’s beliefs when the opportunity presents itself, such as when others are discussing religion on a website or forum, is only to be expected. In their minds, they are doing us all a favor.
But rather than its members simply extolling their own understanding of God and his requirements for humans, for some time now the evangelical Christian faction has adopted a troubling new approach: stamping out the fledgling ex-JW atheist faction wherever it manifests itself.
Again, I only need to dip into the way my mind was calibrated as a JW, and the motivation behind this offensive by the evangelical wing is as clear as day.
As a JW, apostates were not just slightly-misguided fellow creatures who were pitied but still worthy of respect. They were the enemy. The gloves were off. Apostates were agents of Satan himself who were to be, not just avoided at all costs, but resisted and repudiated if they made incursions into God’s organization and its all-important kingdom work.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the same righteous indignation fuels the hate-strewn rants of the likes of the Brooks’ and Alun Williams (another even more eccentric would-be spiritual mentor), to name only a few. They will not share the same space with unbelievers. They can barely tolerate the fact that unbelievers exist, but the moment an ex-JW unbeliever such as myself opens his mouth and criticizes their cherished beliefs on a suitably well-subscribed YouTube channel, this constitutes an act of war. I become “fair game” (to coin a Scientology expression), and any tactics no matter how underhanded may be brought to bear.
No perceived flaw or slip-up is too trivial to warrant an avalanche of criticism. Even giving away an unauthorized copy of a book is to be treated with horror and disgust, and responded to with character assassinations of the most severe kind – even if the one doing the criticizing is guilty of the same indiscretion.
By this point you are probably thinking: “Ok, I get it. There is an evangelical faction in the exJW community, and it has its knives sharpened for anyone like you who espouses atheism. But what is different? How has anything changed?”
The Christian evangelical faction has, to my knowledge, always been mostly populated by demonstrably-eccentric conspiracy theorists, obsessed with freemasonry, subliminal images and the illuminati, who are almost a parody of themselves. But, like Donald Trump, against all odds they are gaining in influence, and have already attracted a respectable portfolio of more eloquent, credible spokespersons to rally to their banner.
This latest copyright fiasco came as a surprise, not because of the ferocity of the attack over such a trivial issue, but because it succeeded in duping a number of fellow activists – including a couple of respectable Christians I was hitherto friends with, who gave me bear hugs last time I met them in person, and who have featured on my YouTube channel.
I was previously unaware of there being any animosity between this couple (who I can’t name) and myself, and they were even friends with me on Facebook. But one of them made it clear in a private email exchange with a mutual friend that, because I offered an unauthorized copy of a book on my YouTube channel, I am to be considered “toxic,” a “liability” and “bad for business.”
The vitriolic tirade in which these sentiments appeared was apparently an ill-judged attempt to use the copyright issue as leverage to turn my friend and certain other fellow activists against me and my work. The person was, in effect, outing themselves as a “Cedars hater” and siding with Mike and Kim Brooks.
Again, you are probably thinking: “So what? Why do I need to know all this? Why do you even need to write about it? By writing about it you are only exacerbating an already fraught situation, and possibly putting off JWs who will leap on all this as evidence that life outside Watchtower is full of bickering and turmoil.”
I am writing about this situation because it matters – or should matter to those who value free inquiry and intellectual honesty over religious zealotry and unfounded dogma. Things will not improve by ignoring the underlying problem, the elephant in the room. Whether I like it or not, a bitter war between the evangelical and atheist factions in the ex-JW community is raging – and it has just escalated.
A war I don’t want
I did not sign up to be an activist four years ago because I sought confrontation and controversy. Believe it or not, I loath confrontation and will avoid it where possible. But whether I like fighting or not, fighting – if only of the defensive sort – is precisely what I must now do if I am to continue despite sustained efforts to silence my atheism by those who insist everyone should believe as they do.
What matters to me is not power, prestige, money or popularity. If I wanted those things, there are far easier ways of obtaining them than being a secular-minded ex-JW anti-cult activist. What matters to me is one thing, and one thing alone: the fight for truth. It is a fight that has been going on for centuries, fought by great minds and inspirational individuals who have made immense individual sacrifices to birth a society as tolerant and progressive as the one we now enjoy.
But nothing can be taken for granted, and those who insist on inflicting their ignorance on everyone else are far from disappearing in the rear view mirror. The struggle continues and effects all of us, whether it is creationists rallying for equal time in the classroom, or gays and lesbians being denied equal rights, or jihadists trying to burn civilization as we know it. And in my own corner of this global battlefield, I refuse to keel over and capitulate to evangelical thugs such as Mike and Kim Brooks or those they succeed in enticing to flock to their anti-intellectual crusade.
That is why I wanted to let my readers and YouTube subscribers know that, from now on, I will be more open than ever about my atheism, and my channel will feature more videos specifically on that subject. It is painfully apparent from my interactions with Christian evangelical ex-JWs that many of them are completely unaware of the arguments for unbelief, and I want to do my part to redress the balance.
JWsurvey, meanwhile, will remain for the most part as it is now – a welcoming environment for both the religious and secular-inclined alike. Scriptures will continue to be freely cited where necessary, because even though Christianity is objectively without evidence as a belief system, it just so happens that the bible is still in conflict with the teachings and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses in a plethora of areas.
Finally, a message…
To my critics I say: Get off my back, or prepare for a long and bitter struggle, because I didn’t break free from years of cult servitude to be told to “shut up,” and I won’t be bullied. And even if you should succeed in silencing me, ultimately the wind is in the sails of free inquiry, science and reason. Others will pick up my baton when I finish, and I am already far from alone.
To my friends I say: Thank you so much for your support, but PLEASE refrain from attacking those who attack me. By doing so you only bolster their persecution complex, and rather than take out their frustration on you they will only escalate their onslaught.
And to Jehovah’s Witnesses who might be reading this, I say: The fact that ex-JW apostates are fighting each other is not evidence that you are not in a cult. It only means that Watchtower indoctrination has a range of extremely unpleasant side-effects, which include suspicion, paranoia, jealousy, anger and bitterness. All of those things can be found in abundance in kingdom halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but at least those of us on the outside have the ability to choose who our friends are for ourselves. And the longer you stay in the cult, the more pronounced those characteristics may be when you are finally able to walk away.
new-cedars-signature3
*For the record, I do not say there was nothing wrong in my offering an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience. I merely say that apologies need to go to those to whom they are owed, and any breach of copyright is strictly an issue between me and the copyright holder. And if you insist on besieging me with complaints on the matter, if you are fair and consistent you must similarly rebuke everyone who has involved themselves in downloading or distributing a PDF of the book – something the copyright holder has hitherto done nothing, to my knowledge, to halt. Others have complained that the JWsurvey.org logo has been added to the copy I was giving away, but the logo was added by my friend, not me – not that I think doing so was the heinous crime people are framing it as. And if you are to chastise me simply because my website is advertised on someone else’s copy of a book, you also need to level similar criticism at the owner of the JWfacts.com website, which is also endorsed.
Further reading…
◾Why I can no longer support aggressive forms of activism against Jehovah’s Witnesses
◾My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
Related video…
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← The Friday Column: Do Jehovah’s Witnesses cherish the marital bond?
The Friday Column: Portuguese documentary overshadows Governing Body visit →
237 Responses to The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
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minion says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:01 pm
Lloyd,
Great read, no worries, your battle is already in the win column.
My perspective lengthy comments last night is still under – admin review.
Go figure.
Here’s the deal, your blog jwsurvey rocks, mikey & kimmie videos theirs don’t.
You have nearly 2 million viewers, from Brazil (1st place currently) your attracting many viewers, 38.%. Jwsurvey Global Ranking 231,370 compared to 1 billion websites.
Here’s the answer, or problem with mikey & kimmie., its the meth, the remnants from Breaking Bad.
I hope this comment gets through.
You have my support.
“Unity in Freedom for Thruth” is my belief and perspective of JWSURVEY.org
Peace out.
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Robert67 says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:05 pm
You missed my faction
“The watchtower is definitely a cult and truth is in the Bible and the gospel, not in organized religion.”
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phoenix_rising says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:19 pm
I would like to add my faction: “I cant wait to see the new Star Wars movie and enjoy a cigar after – and if the Org ever brought back cheese Danishes and Orange Juice to the Convention I might consider coming back” faction.
^ trust me. That’s a real faction. There is one of us so far and we are mighty lol
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Robert67 says:
December 3, 2015 at 1:23 pm
I’ve already purchased my tickets for opening night. I’m down for oj and a cheese danish, take a pass on the cigar.
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Pow says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:10 pm
I am with you on the cheese danish, and will add the egg Mcmuffin, remember when we used prepaid food tickets for a few years?
But on the dark side was all those mothers with children in diapers under the bleachers making hoagie sandwichs…guaranteed to give one “D.C.flu”
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Pow says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:14 pm
Wait a minute. …to make this comment relevant to subject. ..we did not call it a egg Mcmuffin @ we called it a muffin egg….
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Tara says:
December 3, 2015 at 5:58 pm
I got my ticket for opening night! I wasn’t around when they did food but it still wouldn’t tempt me…. or the cigar actually…. How come we can watch star wars but not LOTR? I actually found the Hobbit more violent and with a tonne more magic…. of course Kili helped.. poor Kili :(
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Winston Smith says:
December 5, 2015 at 8:55 am
@Tara,
When I was still in there was a whole group of us that were into LOTR. I must have read the books about 20 times since I was a teenager. We simply knew which of the “friends” you could mention LOTR to and which you could not. It was the same way with Star Wars (most of the same folks who were into LOTR were also in SW). Some “brothers & sisters” you just knew you shouldn’t mention it to. The way the Watchtower condemned most sci-fi and fantasy in general, coupled with the fact that there are just some people who need something tangible to condemn, leads to people having issues with fairly innocent entertainment. I also remember some of the folks having an issue with something as innocent as The Smurfs. (JW “Urban Legend” states that a possessed Smurf Doll actually walked out of a Kingdom Hall).
And as for the violence in The Hobbit, much of the Old Testament (oh sorry, I mean Hebrew Scriptures, LOL) is far more violent.
WS
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Amber says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:05 pm
Ha! I loved those cheese danishes!!
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phoenix_rising says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:45 am
Haha I am in my early 30’s but remember when we had food at the conventions. I was joking when I said I would go back for food – just trying to make everyone smile =)
And idk – but many of my JW friends Loved LOTR when I was in. There was always two types of witnesses – the foam at the mouth anything pg-13 is the devil – and then “Meh – if I want to see it I will.” I was definitely the latter.
Now that Brooklyn is up for sale lets pool our money together and get a big “Read JWSurvey Daily” sign up. and Replace all JW.Org with JUSURVEY.ORG
I would over see this project while wearing the tightest pants I could squeeze into and eating an Ice Cream Cone from money I didn’t donate.
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Frederick says:
December 5, 2015 at 3:43 pm
Haha I loved those cheese Danishes! The chicken cutlet sandwiches were pretty good as well
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Grace says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:06 pm
I just realised why I would not be a member of the JWNet forum. There is a whole thread just made to trash Cedars & his blog. I don’t get why they are doing this. It’s one thing to criticise his writing (I don’t have anything against that) but I think that rehashing what he did or didn’t do years ago before my time isn’t helpful. I don’t know what the history is between these people & him but if you weren’t there when it happened then it just comes across like bitterness & jealousy to those that weren’t there because they weren’t emotionally involved in it in the first place so they won’t understand it.
I personally don’t like to judge people on what others have to say about them & their past. I like to take people how they are now. Everyone makes mistakes. I think that they should stop bringing it up. I just don’t think that it is helpful for people who might be doubting & need somewhere to go to find themselves.
All of the websites & videos help someone, they may not suit everyone but the rehashing personal fights about things that happened before my time puts me off & I feel at times it’s just dwelling on the negatives. If I were still waking up I would see that as just proof that apostates are bitter & just click off.
As for the Crisis of Conscience thing, we can all be a bit self-righteous about things but let that be Lloyds problem if there is one, I don’t know the ins & outs of that either. To me just reading the articles & everyones comments is what I am interested in. I’m not here to judge anyone.
Just my 2 cents.
In the words of our dear friend Exscellior
“Peace”
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anonymous4 says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:25 pm
FEAR = False Evidence Appearing Real
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minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:33 am
@ a4,
Watchtower Corporation motto:
‘Don’t ask – don’t tell’
In contrast,
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
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boonfoxx says:
December 3, 2015 at 2:48 pm
Lloyd, I’m not mega active in the comments, but I want you to know your activism is of great help. It’s been a couple of years now and I’ve finally began to address some issues myself on my own blog.
When you can, take a look at my first blog post, speaking about the matter of being shunned, that I’ve even shared publicly on my Facebook page! A huge step!
http://www.boonfoxx.com/shunning/
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Michael says:
December 3, 2015 at 3:11 pm
Cedars, I woke up a few years before I actually started doing the research. I didn’t know why the organization was wrong, I just knew it was. Your website and JW Facts were the first resources I came across and have educated me tremendously since then. I eventually friended Mike & Kim and enjoyed their videos but I found it a bit disheartening to learn that they had a disdain for atheists or any non Christian for that matter. Like you, I find the aggressive activism a huge turnoff. I don’t feel like it does any good other than satisfying in a small degree the frustration and anger these individuals understandably have. I am not understanding what other result they hope to achieve. When I was “in” I never would have let them engage me especially in public. Education is the key. Encouraging critical thought processes and questioning without heated confrontation is the only way. Honestly, I don’t see how anyone could have a place in their heart for any organized religion after escaping the cult. But I understand it is a need in a lot of people. Please keep up the good work and understand that you do have a lot of folks on your side.
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DavidR says:
December 3, 2015 at 3:24 pm
I watched two mike and kim videos, and made a comment but just deleted it because the lack of coherency in the way Mike speaks shows he’s just someone who enjoys to hear himself rant. And I enjoy how they do an entire video that “is not meant to bash you” but then bashes you. It reminded me soo much of the back bitey, nasty passive aggressive way that would drive me crazy when I was in the congregation. I’m glad that I didn’t know who these people are and will not think of them again. Keep up the good work John, and don’t ever let the ankle biters stop you from your activism.
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minion says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:51 pm
@ David, – cool name – the beloved one.
This proves my point, I mention on a previous comment, of which mikey and kimmie are having anger issues, due to – the meth, remnants from Breaking Bad.
Jwsurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
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dee says:
December 3, 2015 at 4:03 pm
Exiting the JW cult – victim? victimizer? or both?
http://www.exitingthejwcult.com/2015/12/victim-victimizer-or-both.html?m=1
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Big B says:
December 3, 2015 at 4:21 pm
Lloyd;
As always a great read. Sorry that you are taking a lot of “grief” from the haters. However, I for one, always look forward to coming to this site to hear what all of the other ex-JW’s are saying and thinking. After being in this cult since 1957 and having recently faded with my wife and son; this site has been a great source of therapy for me and I hope for others as well.
Please continue your inspirational work.
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ISupportCedars says:
December 3, 2015 at 4:33 pm
Cedars I am a believer in God and just becuase your atheist doesn’t affect me at all. Keep up the good manners and continue the excellent work you’ve done all this time. Haters are always gonna hate.
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Bandit says:
December 3, 2015 at 5:17 pm
I feel how Lloyd does. Ive been explaining common sense material from the bible to my friends and also people who aren’t JWs. I can get them thinking and I have even peaked a couple interests. One of my friends just got disfellowshipped and I showed him and he’s having trouble accepting it. One of my other friends decided to hold off getting baptized. I kinda consider myself like an undercover agent against the GB. I want them stopped and I won’t give details but they have destroyed my family, so i feel like I have to take them fown.
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Sparlock says:
December 3, 2015 at 6:28 pm
Until reading this I had never heardof these Brooks people and am still not sure who they are or what is there connection to this site, but to be blunt it really doesn’t matter to me.
I will say that it is sad to me that you have become atheist, butnot surprising as it is a frequent occurence among escapees from the WTS.
I can understandyour frustrationat those people who do very unchristlike things in the nameof Christianity. As a Christian, they very much annoyme, too. However, there is also very much a militant atheist wing every bit as despicable and vitriolic as these ones that you seem to not be noticing.
Admittedly, I am not an avid reader of your site nor do I watch your videos so maybe you have made mention of this fact previously. Either way, they do exist, and I hope that you continue to post factual information about the misdeeds of the WTS so that some may be helped to awaken.
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Idontknowhatodo says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:14 pm
Drew…I would suggest you listen to all the Australian Royal Commission investigation…its not apostate…its news on u tube… if that doesnt make you question what your being taught then I think you may be a very happy JW….it is shocking… and you are disfellowshipped if you say you no longer believe in ‘The Truth’… it happened to someone who lives near me recently.
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dee says:
December 3, 2015 at 11:23 pm
“……..and you are disfellowshipped if you say you no longer believe in ‘The Truth’……”
The GB is allowed to change their minds however many times about doctrines and it is called ‘new light’ but a rank and file JW is not allowed to change his/her mind about WT doctrine without penalty.
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Drew says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:33 am
Have read it viewed the videos amd so on so on. One congregations mistake does not determine that all witnesses practiced that same viewpoint. As a parent of 4 if ever that were to happen we are encouraged to deal with it lawfully, if it can not be handle within the congregation. Every religion may have pedophiles, murders, or worse that have been made new so to speak by adopting and applying the teachings, and clothing themselves with christlike personality. If they havent repented and turned away from that course they are persecuted. Did not david commit a great sin amd still became Jehovah’s friend, did not king menasah or whatever send his kids to the fire and turned around, did not saul a top rank Pharisee who persecuted christlike ones even approving the stoning of stephen change also.
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minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:48 am
@ Drew,
Please look up your notes on scriptures used at the international convention (2014) and this past summer (2015).
Do you see a trend.?
How many scriptures were used focusing on the gospel of Jesus Christ.? (Just about all of them – focused on the gospel of Jesus Christ)
However, how many scriptures did they use, to defend there man-made rules and or beliefs, zero my friend. This means Nada – zero scriptures were explained to show why we protect child abuser’s for the crimes against children, teenagers and adults.
Again your comments are worthless, and meaningless, because We All know the scriptures better than you.
Task at hand – if you want to make any connection here, then focus on explaining the man-made beliefs that Watchtower Corporation has your undivided attention.
Peace out,
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Covert Fade says:
December 6, 2015 at 3:41 am
@Drew
I’m sorry but your answer does not address the issue of the Royal Commission. You answer is that of someone who has actually not seen the videos but just been told a distorted version of them by other witnesses.
If you had seen the videos, you would know that it was not “one congregation’s mistake.”
The 1006 abusers not reported to the police, and the horror stories told by the two survivors came about because of DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE GOVERNING BODY.
I will say that again.
The GOVERNING BODY institute the rules and practice these elders followed TO THE LETTER that the Royal Commission clearly demonstrate harm and continue to harm children and survivors of abuse, and allow predators to continue to abuse.
GB Member Geoffrey Jackson confirmed that these were the rules Watchtower followed in his testimony. So yes, ALL WITNESSES DO HAVE THE SAME VIEWPOINT. You have to, unless you want to be disfellowshipped.
The facts show that these abusers did not “put on the christlike personality” and change. Many of the 1006 were repeat abusers about whom nothing was done.
The Watchtowers OWN EXPERT agreed that once a person has abused, they are very likely to continue abusing, and that WT policy falls very far short of best practice.
Please respond to these specific points.
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Frederick says:
December 3, 2015 at 7:23 pm
Lloyd, I’ve been an ex JW for 6 years. Until recently I wasn’t aware of the depth of lies and outright insanity that watchtower has been responsible for. Your site and videos have been very eye opening, I really appreciate all you do. I don’t get involved in activism but I’m glad that you do.
Regardless of what anyone believes, any ex JW should be happy that people like yourself are taking the initiative to educate active jw’s.
It amazes me that in the year 2015 so many people refuse to embrace the idea of accepting everyone’s beliefs as long as they are not causing harm to others.
For those of you that believe in God then I’m assuming you also accept the idea that God gave us free will.
Keep up the amazing work Lloyd!
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Felipe says:
December 3, 2015 at 8:09 pm
I support, supported, and likely will support your activism, even financially, but your time is best spent ignoring the Mike and Kims. They are only relevant to other Mike and Kims. This article was quite a surprise, never expected it here. I certainly hope that you focus on things that are more important.
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MrFair says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:09 pm
Hang in there Lloyd! You are a great secular voice for ex-JWs who aren’t interested in becoming evangelical Christians. Your site was a great landing place for me.
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Vivian says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:48 pm
Haters gonna hate. Remember when you would silently groan and die a little bit inside when you found out you would be in a service car group all dang morning with certain people? These are those people trying to join in on your internet super highway car group!!
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Vivian says:
December 3, 2015 at 9:50 pm
Haters gonna hate. Remember when you would silently groan and die a little bit inside when you found out you would be in a service car group all dang morning with certain people? These are those people trying to join in on your internet super highway car group!!
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tiger123 says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:56 am
@Vivian
LOL aint that the truth
@ Loyd
I appreciate your work and am on your side. I don’t have the time to set up a website right now and since you have done such a great job and have excellent journalistic skills, I probably never will. I am like you an atheist and don’t at all dislike nor feel the need to change anyone’s beliefs. Rather I am here to help any who may be waking up from JWs or needs help.
As for Mike and his threats of violence, I wouldn’t worry much. He only said those things because he knows you live thousands of miles away. I am confident that he is a cyber bully, which is by the way a criminal matter in the United States. It is not a copyright infringement, it comes with some real jail time.
http://www.stopbullying.gov/laws/new-mexico.html
The website is the U.S. government website listing the laws pertaining directly to New Mexico. I imagine you probably have already read them, however I am sure Mike hasn’t, because he strikes me as someone who has the bad habit of speaking before he thinks, or doesn’t do his homework and complicates his life by publishing his unfiltered thoughts on the web.
Here is a note for Mike, since I am certain he will read your blog and the comments.
@ Mike
I was raised by a man who loved violence. With a mother who was a pacifist and lover of Jesus. I was rarely conflicted in my youth as to what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wanted to be like Jesus in every way possible. However, practicality and the desire to survive my father’s determination to turn me into a professional fighter meant I had to learn to defend myself and learn to fight. One of the most important lessons my dad taught me growing up was, never fight someone out of your weight class. When I entered my teens I was light, 135lbs, I would never think of taking on Mike Tyson, Ali or any of the heavyweights.
Mike, you are out of your league, Cedars towers over you intellectually. You have lost, that is why you make idle threats of violence to someone that will never have a reason to come to New Mexico. I would tell you how ignorant that is, but well….. you wouldn’t believe it and everyone else who reads this already knows how ignorant it is.
@ Loyd
Final thought. If Mike and his wife threaten violence again, drop me an email, I will gladly go to New Mexico and hand this matter over to the proper authorities. I will be sure to make time for that.
@ Mike
Final thought. You have went to far. Do yourself a favor and pretend like you never heard of Loyd and get on with your life and leave him alone or you may end up facing serious criminal charges that you cannot escape. If you don’t believe me, google it and look up what your state has to say on the matter.
@ All the good commenters and article writers on JWsurvey
I look forward to my time reading and listening to your stories as well as viewpoints. You all are a delight!
Warm regards to all of you.
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tiger123 says:
December 4, 2015 at 2:13 am
@ Loyd
I just looked at the vitriolic tirades of some of the people who do not like you. I hope you will choose to ignore these people and move forward and not get bogged down in to many more articles like the one you just wrote.
If you in fact have been wronged or have been threatened with bodily harm, there are laws that govern such matters, please take the time to find which ones provide protection for your situation and then take advantage of them for the good of yourself and your family.
This is your website and you can choose to block or delete my comment, however I truly have your personal best interest at heart and not the JWSURVEY website as my interest. It appears to me, you are trying to hard to control things that are out of your reach. This may be the residual effect of the JW religion or something else. However focusing very much time or energy to that is like getting caught in quicksand. Imagine that you go to a baseball game and one of the players is being taunted by a bunch of fans from the opposing team while he is at bat. What should he do? Focus on the ball and forget about the fans of the other team. For your own good, don’t wrangle with the fanatics. Do you what you do best, hit the ball.
I feel that you are a good man that has been hurt and working at doing your part to see that it does not happen to others. That is how most good causes get started. I like others on here want you to succeed. Loyd, please relax, take a deep breath and then move forward, in a couple years none of this will matter.
My mother said it best, if you ignore them, eventually they will tire of what they are doing and go away. You know what? She was right.
P.S. if you feel I am wrong and feel the need to respond with a defense, please don’t, just delete my comment and I will not take offense. I would have emailed this, however the only email I ever sent you got no response. I am not sure if the problem was on my end or what, or if it just wound up in your spam filter.
Best regards
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boonfoxx says:
December 4, 2015 at 5:39 pm
Well said Tiger, I’m sure Llyod appreciates it.
“Nevermind what the haters say, ignore ’em till they fade away.” -T.I. (Live Your Life)
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Lesley says:
December 4, 2015 at 2:51 am
I am so sorry to read about the vile hatred that has been directed at you, Lloyd. I am also deeply saddened that a lot (most?) of it has been by so-called Christians. Saddened, but not surprised. I am an ex-JW who has found a wonderful, loving home amongst British Baptists (not to be confused with US Southern Baptists!) and I am happy to say that we embrace tolerance for all people – believers and non-believers. I have found great solace and inspiration from your web-site. Although I left the Org about 15 years ago I could not shake the guilt and fear fully until I started reading your blogs, etc. Of course it saddens me that you have rejected God, but it is your fully considered choice, and I fully respect that. I will continue (if I may) to read your writings and share them, when I can, with those who are still JWs. Just remember – just because someone calls themself a Christian does not make them one; to paraphrase Jesus: not all those saying “Lord, Lord!” will enter into the Kingdom. Anyway, no preaching! – Just want to assert my support and say a huge thank you for all your work – and hope that maybe my support will allow you to count the Christians who profess friendship with you to extend to two hands!
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Gorbatchov says:
December 4, 2015 at 3:53 am
Great read Lloyd. Everyone should choose the life they want to live. You does a great job addressing the issues that our religion has and are kept under the carpet. Take care for your self, your health because we live only once! Take great care for your relatives also, they are the most valuable asset you have, isn’t it?
So, go on with the great work, I have great respect for you.
Gorby
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Caroline says:
December 4, 2015 at 4:57 am
@Drew, I have cut and pasted all your comments and read them over carefully and I think you are a Watchtower troll. Your comments sound just like what an elder would tell somebody who would be newly studying with Witnesses to throw them off the track and make them think that the Watchtower is open-minded when it comes to examining the religion in depth. You even misspell your words to make it look like you maybe a child or a person from another country, to throw us off the track to make it look like you are for real but we can see through the rouse.
Any one of us know that if you were to read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz that you would be told to stay away from books like that. We were all told not to accept literature from people at the door that might be critical of the Watchtower or had scriptures in those tracts that were not Watchtower scriptures. We were always warned about taking literature at the doors from the householders. We were always warned not to get into debates with householders. We were always warned against listening to any religious shows on television. We all know the drill so you can’t fool us into thinking that Witnesses are allowed to listen to the other side.
You say you were in the “truth” when you were young and then fell away and then came back and it changed your life for the better so we know you have a full understanding of what it is like to be a Witness.
If what you are saying is the truth, then you are still in the love bombing stage until you decide you want to be a full-fledged Witness again. If that is true and you haven’t fully rededicated yourself to the “truth” again, then you are in for a rude awakening when you do decide to come back full force and get baptized or at least rededicate yourself once again to the organization. You will be expected to follow the Governing Body’s dictates completely and if not, kicked out on your heels. We all know that is the case, even if you haven’t come to that realization just yet. Wait until you get either rededicated or baptized and you will see what we are all talking about here.
What you need to do is some real extensive research into the real history of the organization around 1914-1919 when the Society says that Jesus came to the earth and examined all the religions of the world and picked out the Bible Students and decided that Jehovah would only speak through that organization as his mouthpiece to the earth and anyone not subscribing to that religion would be killed at Armageddon.
What were they preaching at that time? You admitted that they were celebrating Christmas, birthdays and the cross, so what changed? Obviously if Jesus chose that as the only one true religion, then that religion has apostatized from the one that Jesus supposedly chose in 1919. Think about it. The JW religion of today is an apostate religion from the one that Jesus chose. That isn’t new “light”. It’s apostasy and you are being fooled into accepting apostate teachings as coming from Jesus when Jesus chose a different religion if what the Society says is true about Jesus choosing the Bible Students in 1919 as he one and only spokesman on earth.
Examine the articles in the 2011 Watchtower about if Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 or 586/587 B.C.E. Look at the footnote in those articles where it said that no other authority agrees with them that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E.
Why is the Society deliberately lying about 607 B.C.E.? Do you accept that the Society would deliberately lie to you? Most Witnesses would never think that to be the case. They would not believe that the Society would deliberately lie to them. Is that okay with you, that the one and only “truth” would tell lies to you? It certainly isn’t okay with me and it should not be okay with you. If they lie about 607, then what other lies are they willing to lie about to trick you into that religion and to keep you in that religion?
Don’t be afraid to ask the tough questions before you rededicate yourself. Don’t get involved if you don’t know what you are really getting involved in. If you change your mind after that, you will be kicked out and you won’t be able to talk to any of your friends and relatives in that religion again. Even now, if you decide not to get involved and stay out, you will be shunned. You can’t fool us into thinking otherwise. We have been Witnesses far to long to know that is how it works.
As to the book Crisis of Conscience, it is such a shame that it isn’t being published legally by the Franz family because it is so expensive to get your hands on one now. I wished they would start printing that book again so all of Jehovah’s Witnesses and anybody interested in the religion could read it. Nobody who reads that book, would want anything to do with the religion ever again.
That is why you (Drew) will be told not to read it. The Society knows full well what is in that book and that is why I hold the Governing Body responsible for all the lives lost to that religion and all the lives lost to blood transfusions and and I can’t forgive them for that. They are blood guilty for thousands, if not millions of lives lost to that cult.
If you still want to belong to a religion like that, then do it but don’t expect us to buy all that you said in your posts. We know how it works, better than you think we do.
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Drew says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:29 am
Lol sorry to confuse you by the typos, working overnight and sleep writing on.the phone to your comments can be overwhelming at times. I left cause of questions and early on like most if we are honest felt I was missing out on things of the world. I read all your comments about bloodguilt and transfusions and so on, by far me I cant be considered to be brain washed lol the bible is the truth, history books, documents and so on have proved it to be accurate. The prophecies of Daniel alone are so accurate, but truthfully in honesty none of us would no right until in my case WHEN Armageddon comes or in some of you guys viewpoint IF Armageddon comes. My post are my freedom to speak on.what I see within my congregation, I invite you to come see for yourself. See if the force is strong for brainwashing. On the blood transfusions thing there are non witnesses that refuse to comply to that as well becuase of one’s who have had family members go through those procedures and come out not feeling right. Look my thinking is not troll like what I spoke or commented to anyone have been.my interpretation of the bible based truths not watchtower. Im.a proud jw an.unbaptized publisher moving to next step and always asking questions cause that is what we are commanded to do within.the bible. Seek and you shall find. But thank you for your comments.
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Caroline says:
December 4, 2015 at 1:51 pm
Drew, since you are not baptized, I am begging you to do some research into the organization before getting baptized.
You are being led along right now by love bombing to get baptized. We were all there, just like you and we all thought it was the “truth” and nothing but the “truth” too.
Please do some independent research like to read Crisis of Conscience or Gentile Times Reconsidered or just go to any library or google into when Jerusalem was destroyed.
Can you find even one scripture in the Bible that says that the earth will be transformed into a paradise? Where are the Great Crowd? If Jesus was Michael the Archangel and he was created in the image of Jehovah, then Jehovah has to be an angel.
There are so many scriptures that the Society either leaves out of the New World Translation or they interpret it the way they want to to make it fit their doctrines, that we could write down here, and if that is what you are looking for we can start to list them.
Look up the history of the organization in 1919. Please do some research into the real history and ask any of the elders in your congregation if they can prove to you that God is directing the organization.
Just printing literature isn’t enough and going from door to door isn’t enough to prove that a perfect God is directing the organization.
If God was really directing the organization, they wouldn’t be making any mistakes about anything like the generation teaching when Armageddon was going to happen or having to be constantly coming up with “new light”, in other words, finally getting it right. Why would God withhold vital information from them, if it means our eternal life?
In the Bible, Jesus said that “all authority” had been given to him in heaven and earth but the Society says that “much” authority has been given to him, calling Jesus a liar.
All the love that you see in the organization is conditional. If you mess up or find out later that you have been lied to and want out, you will have that love for you evaporate.
Be warned.
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Covert Fade says:
December 5, 2015 at 3:07 am
@Drew, before you commit yourself to a religion that will forbid you from ever changing your mind, can I ask you to do something?
Download Crisis of Conscience. You can find the .pdf online still, I think.
Print it out.
Sit down with the elders in the congregation and ask if you can all study it together.
Watch their reaction. Do they agree to study the book and debunk Franz’s claims in detail? Or rather do they simply refuse to even look at it, and tell you to do the same.
Now ask yourself two things:
1: Why do JW’s encourage people of every other religion to critically investigate their faith, but forbid it for their own?
2:Why would a religion that thought powerful obvious truth be so scared of people reading anything that disagrees with it? Surely truth can resist enquiry and questions?
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Winston Smith says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:58 am
@Drew,
You mentioned that history has proven the Bible is true, especially the book of Daniel. I was always impressed with those prophecies about the world powers and the messiah as well. But what about prophecies that fail to come true?
Deut 18:20-22 (NWT) ““‘If any prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name that I did not command him to speak or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. However, you may say in your heart: “How will we know that Jehovah has not spoken the word?” When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word is not fulfilled or does not come true, then Jehovah did not speak that word. The prophet spoke it presumptuously. You should not fear him.’”
The Watchtower society has a history of failed prophecies. And after the prophecies fail, they try to blame others for making assumptions or they attempt to hide their failed predictions.
Originally, the end was coming in 1874 (Russell accepted this although it predates publication of the Watchtower). Then the new understanding was that the last days began in 1799, 1874 marked the start of Christ’s presence, 1878 when he began his rule, and 1881 when the anointed began being resurrected to heavenly life. It was all going to culminate with Armageddon in 1914. When that failed, the new understanding was that the end would come by 1918, then 1920, then 1925. There were only a few “months” remaining before Armageddon in 1942. Then the end was coming in 1975. Don’t believe me? See if your congregation library has a book called Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God written in 1966. Read the first chapter to see what it says about 1975.
I was born in the 1970’s (nearly an “Armageddon baby”). During my formative years we were all told that the end would be here before the generation of 1914 dies off. We were referred back to the “landmark” statement in 1920, “millions now living will never die!” How many people 95 to 100 years old are still alive today? Well less than even one million, let alone millions.
How does all this fit with the scripture is Deut 18?
As the others have suggested: please do some real research before you commit to this group.
WS
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Reader says:
December 4, 2015 at 5:52 am
The trouble with a balanced position is that there is every way to fall.
The trouble with the middle ground is that they come at you from all directions.
Extremists have the ‘other’ all to one side or the other, simple.
Trolls are internet vermin that get everywhere, not just your site.
I have some atheist friends, though I am far from being such myself.
To me it is ‘All things bright and Beautiful….’ . Nature proves a God the Bible seconds this by identification & etc, etc,. God gave the Bible for free, Man makes religion for control.
Two thing have struck me of late about atheism…
1. The ‘christian behaviour’ of many to the immigrant crisis in Europe, a large proportion who will/must be atheist, means many have retained some of the best Christian aspects in their behaviour to the needs of others. [nice]
2. So many among ex jw seems to suggest a corrosive effect on the individual’s belief. [sad]
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Robert67 says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:38 am
You can see the Watchtowers exploitation of Christians in order to move their brand. Sadly being in this cult will strip away many of the Christ like behaviors of one of Jesus followers. They call themselves Christ presence on Earth, very hard to picture Jesus doing what these false prophets do.
They will make you hustlers, liars, boasters, glorified snitches, apathetic, ignorant; both secularly and spiritually. They are far removed from Gods son.
Thank God for sites like these that free mental captives of this cult.
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Robert67 says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:44 am
Forgot to add there is a big difference between what many here describe as an “apostate”. Having in mind what the Watchtower calls an apostate, which is a person that stops believing in their web of lies.
The Bible on the other hand describes an apostate as someone who came to know Christ and now rejects him. That is not the case for many of us, as can be seen in the comments.
We can best be described as JW survivors or Ex Jehovahs witnesses in relation to the activism, never as an apostate.
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mary ruth says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:09 am
John Cedars, I am sorry for the abuse you have gotten from the wacko couple in New Mexico. Just know that all Americans are not bias, hateful people like them. You and Paul Grundy have helped me so much see the truth in the “Truth”. You and Paul’s mild temper and kind manor is why I stayed at your websites. I left the JWs because of the lack of love but then found out how wrong they are with their teachings. Every time I come to a YouTube video where the person starts their conversation with a rude, derogatory or self-righteous voice I turned it off. The world doesn’t need more hate it needs more love and understanding. Thank you for the work you do. Mary
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dee says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:37 am
@Caroline, Drew
CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE (written by ex-GB member Ray Franz) can be downloaded for free from:
http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/franz01.pdf
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JB Reezner says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:07 pm
Dee, that link didn’t work for me. It could be a problem on my end, but if anybody else has any trouble, here’s a link to a version you can read straight from the browser:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20333975/Crisis-of-Conscience-2004-Unencrypted
When it opens, click on Standard View or Full View (if necessary) and scroll to move through the pages. It also has an option to download the PDF file, but you’d have to sign in and pay 9 bucks. The money may not go to the people who really own the book.
Drew and others, this book reveals more about the Org than you could imagine. It shows how dishonest they have been about their own history, and it show how dangerous and even deadly following the ever-changing JW doctrine can be. But rather than being vitriolic, it’s beautifully written with a humble and warm tone.
Another thought on Lloyd’s giveaway: I suspect that MANY people have bought legal copies of Crisis of Conscience because of this site that Lloyd founded. He and the rest of us constantly recommend it. I’m sure the owners of the book are happy for it to have so much exposure. I downloaded a free copy of it years ago, and then bought the hardcover on Amazon. I’ve heard others say that. I think it may be a common thing. I treasure my copy of it.
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dee says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:58 pm
@JB R
I am just noticing that an error message is displayed when I clicked on the link which I provided for downloading CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE. I have personally downloaded this book from this link in the recent past so apparently the link has been removed.
Also, Cedars did provide this same link when he recommended CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE for further reading in his post of October 23, 2015 (Highly-secretive “Talmudic” Correspondence Guidelines document leaked by Watchtower insider).
I have a suggestion: as I may not be able to continue participating in the comments for an extended period, perhaps you could upload the pdf copy which you have to google docs? You could then be able to recommend the link to others as the need arises from time to time.
I do note however, that Ray Franz’s other book: IN SEARCH OF CHRISTIAN FREEDOM is still available for download (free of cost) at https://www.watchtowerlies.com/linked/in_search_of_christian_freedom_franz.pdf
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JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 7:39 am
Absolutely, Dee. The link you provided has surely been working until very recently. When I Googled “Crisis of Conscience”, it was in the top few links that came up, and I saw that it had been used here too. Don’t sweat it. The link I used has been around for awhile, and has been used here too, so we pulled together and got it done.
I’m not ready to be the guy who actually uploads a copyrighted book for others to download, but there’s a big enough boat full of people providing links to existing ones so that I feel comfortable enough doing that. If they like what they find at that link, they can take out a 2nd mortgage on their home and buy a physical copy of the book on Amazon, lol. (They are “slightly” more expensive than they were when I bought mine.)
As for you leaving for an extended period: Permission DENIED, Dee.
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Juli says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:40 am
Great article, Lloyd. Your YT channel and JW Survey are such a great help to so many. Unfortunately, I’ve seen Mike, Kim and gang’s vindictive and childish behavior myself. They attack everyone that refuses to go along with their disgusting and abusive actions. One of their most staunch minions is a woman with the initials B.S. (so very fitting for her). She is one of the biggest sh*t pot stirrers of the lot. Their jealousy is so obvious, it’s sickening. Thanks for helping so many wake up and please don’t let these people get to you. Their misery already shows in their personalities. I’ll stick with the positive activists. Thank you.
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Meryl Corey says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:19 am
Mike & Kim and their circle frighten me…thus I am posting this even more anonymously than usual. I don’t want to end up a target.
I enjoy many articles on JWSurvey, but I am not in the “pro-Cedars”–nor am I in the “anti-Cedars” camp. Consider me neutral.
Reading this article though gives a good, though not complete picture of the activist spectrum. However, I do not believe there are only the two categories of the belief spectrum between Evangelical Christians and Atheist. Like the activist spectrum, I believe it is more nuanced.
BTW…here in the States, the term evangelical means fundamentalist and charismatic Christian groups who are typical very conservative. Whereas there are other Protestant denominations that fall outside of this who are “mainline”. Plus there are the Catholics and Orthodox churches. I’m not Catholic, but I want to point out some Catholic Bibles, in fact, can be scholarly works, and reading the footnotes can give a person a good education on how various Bible books were put together that would not be appreciated in the Evangelical community.
It is the Evangelical Christians and Evangelical Atheists that have the loudest voices, but I believe there is indeed a “silent” or “quiet” majority in those communities, as well as a whole continuum between.
For instance, there are many mainline, progressive/liberal believers of differing belief traditions and they are free to choose how they derive and interpret various beliefs. Many of these embrace science and scholarly research of the Bible (or whatever compilation of texts belong to their tradition). Many embrace gay marriage and other human rights issues. And I’m sure there is similarly a continuum and diversity that falls under the broad brush of the labels ‘agnostic’ or ‘atheist’ that are nothing like the sterotypes of the shriller voices in these camps.
I believe this progressive/liberal diversity across this spectrum should be encouraged. It should not be reduced to a binary choice.
I also want to point out that many in the “anti-Cedars” camp are in fact agnostic or atheist. For instance, many on the JWN forum, which is very pro-atheist, would fall in this camp. I believe Mike & Kim’s daughter no longer identifies as Christian–of course, I’m not sure what she is believes now because I quit watching anything of theirs after their first anti-Cedars rant that clearly revealed themselves as unstable.
Thus, I do not agree with the message this article seems to present that most ex-JW Christians embrace conspiracy theories/hidden images and thus this is the anti-Cedars and that this is a Christian/atheist issue.
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Cedars says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:54 am
I said that the anti-Cedars camp is “mostly” Christian evangelical, I didn’t say that it was ALL evangelical. I am aware that some who have been won over by the Brooks’ do not profess belief, but hopefully the point is clear that unbelievers are tolerated only so long as they keep their mouths shut about their reasons for unbelief.
And I have also explained that Christian v Atheist is not the only dynamic at play. Some “armchair activists” who criticize me, such as on the forum you mentioned, do so simply because they are suspicious and/or jealous of any perceived authority figure who they disagree with. In my submission, they are damaged by their cult experience and react disproportionately to anything that prods at their cult experience, such as an individual with a large following voicing contentious ideas.
Finally, I’m sure “evangelical” means the same thing in every dictionary.
Thanks all the same for your observations.
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Robert67 says:
December 4, 2015 at 1:55 pm
This Christian loves what your doing Loyd. Here all roads lead to exposing the Watchtower lies.
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Atheist Mom says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:08 am
Lloyd,
I wondered how long it would take for you to respond to Mike and Kim. I’m glad you did with a well thought out and respectful message.
When I first left the cult I wanted to believe something so badly. I subscribed to Mike and Kim an also to your channel. As I’d listen to each side, I noticed your kind and intelligent manner of speaking. It really drew me in. Then with Mike and Kim, they are always so snotty and condescending about everything. I felt almost embarrassed for them at times. I felt in my heart that if that was what Christianity does to you then I want no part. I’m not the kind of person to feel I deserve a better future than anyone else because I’m a wee bit holier.
Your channel, your mellow activism and your intelligent discussions truly drew me to research atheism and get more in tune with science. I sincerely look forward to more videos centered around atheism. I still love your rebuttal videos tho :)
Oh, can we endorse making an “I side with Cedars” shirt? Perhaps put an ad on the back of a book… 😛
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James Wittinger says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:18 am
Excellent composition. Your objectivity in a crisis is commendable. Those who criticize you write like primer school mentalities and are mudslingers without doing the research that you have displayed. The adage is true when we speak of them: “You can’t handle the truth!” The fact that they are willing to resort to violence corroborates their caveman intellect. As for me, I continue to worship God, but with my tongue in my check. I’m like the motion picture actor WC Fields on his deathbed in the hospital. He was paging through the Bible, and responded when asked what he was doing: “Looking for loopholes.”
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RickRod says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:19 am
As an ex-evangelical, I can say that many of the things that are wrong within the JW’s are also wrong within evangelical circles. For instance, evangelicals do a horrible job with child abuse. They escape national attention because their churches operate as independent entities unlike the Catholics and JW’s. Evangelicalism as a whole is less controlling than the JW environment but it is no panacea. You are doing good and necessary work, don’t let the haters discourage you. Please know that you are an encouragement, even to ex-evangelicals as myself who have a similar experience within a controlling/abusive group.
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ScotWm says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:09 pm
I have read the article above with great interest. Until today, I had very little knowledge of atheism.
According to the Watchtower’s Governing Body, Jehovah is a god of love who has let evil angels loose upon the earth to cause death, suffering and mental anguish to human beings. Eventually, Jehovah will kill these evil angels and 99.99% of the human population in order create a paradise earth for Jehovah’s Witnesses who are of the “other sheep” class.
Next, there will be an earthly resurrection of all human beings who did not die at Armageddon and they will be given a second chance at gaining eternal life on earth.
(The Watchtower date for the heavenly resurrection of the portion of the 144,000 anointed ones who have already died with a heavenly hope has varied through the years, however, they seem to have finally settled on the year 1918.)
Finally, the remnant of the 144,000 anointed ones still on earth will die and go to heaven, where they will join those of the anointed class who died before them, to rule forever as kings and priests with Jesus Christ. Problem solved — or is it?
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” — Epicurus.
These questions have never been adequately addressed by the many books and Watchtower and Awake! articles that have tried to rationalize how a loving and just god could allow evil to exist. Below is an article that I have found to be very informative:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
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dee says:
December 4, 2015 at 1:22 pm
@ScotWm:
“(The Watchtower date for the heavenly resurrection of the portion of the 144,000 anointed ones who have already died with a heavenly hope has varied through the years, however, they seem to have finally settled on the year 1918.)”
I have always found it interesting that the WT teaches that there are some JWs who ascend to heaven at their death yet at the same time they rebutt Christians who teach that persons go to heaven at death by quoting John 3:13:
“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.”
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Drew says:
December 4, 2015 at 1:52 pm
That question of how god could allow this evil to live was answered in genesis when satan challenged Jehovah s right to rule. If you are a parent no doubt u have been questioned the samething by your kids in your household. Would you continue to fight all there battles after the continue disrespect an ungrateful attitude they have shown to you, in return them not learning anything or allow them to find out that stuff stinks when they step in it. Its written jesus or Michael at the time wanted to end it but Jehovah said no cause his sovereignty was questioned. I mean we can all learn from the account of job where ever one else gave up faith and told him to curse god job did not and he was blessed. Just my thoughts!
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Caroline says:
December 4, 2015 at 2:13 pm
Drew, in the Bible, can you name even one person that Satan killed?
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minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:44 am
@ Drew,
Your fever with JW cultness is alive and well. As I mentioned before, we all went down this road and exited from the merry-go-round. And that’s Not a bad thing.
We all fought hard to defend the JW cultness, however, the problem Your having Is Not to defend the indoctrination, Your Problem is You can not explain or defend the the JW cultness of Man-Made beliefs, that are Not found in the gospels of Jesus Christ.
For example; have your elders share with You the ‘elders book’, and have them explain, why do they have so many chapters – a freaking book. Chapters about oral sex, what you can and can not do in Your Private bed.
Why they still use the 2 witness rule in the book of Moses (Deut.) To protect crimes against children, teenagers, and adults. Worse they Do Not report the hediuos crime to the police.
And the list of JW Man-Made beliefs are unfounded in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
These are the serious issues your having to grasp. Your having a problem in handling the Thruth.
However, we in this blog – understand this action. We did the same thing.
Do you not agree with Jesus Christ, when he said, “I give you a New Commandment, (this expression means everything else would be null and void – No other law before or after Him would matter) to Love one another.”
To Love as I have Loved you, you must Love one another.
In summary, to you really believe in all your heart this level of expectation of ‘Love’ of which Jesus Christ speaks of resanates in your congregation, or is it conditional.?
Understand, we get it – your better off with your live as one of JWs. We will not question your faith.
However, explain the JW Man-Made beliefs not founded in the gospel.
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
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Drew says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:13 am
@minion
Have u ever visited my congregation, have you ever not seen love in my congregation? No until then how can you speak of my congregation. You do however talk about men of the GB and bAck it up with letters, pages from books or videos. So on and so on, I tried to get a copy of the crisis of conscience to read a mans viewpoint on why he left, but a 100$ dollars for a book that someone wrote to help express truths or to help people escape a “cult” I would think would be free. Jesus did say the greatest commandments are love for your father and love for your neighbor’s, but when a man asked him that was not versed on the law didnt he break down the other commandments to him. Then you speak of man made beliefs, stick it to the man, dont listen to the man, but in return some of you guys ask for an open ear to leave the watchtower by following a man!!! Join a group of exjws who are men. Every religion has a “man” I simply say take the “man” out and live by the bible based principles, is my congregation doing that from my eyesight to my insight, minions I tell you they surely are. Now when.I was young and in a different congregation some “men” were not. But this two rule on all this stuff in my studies with an elder, now if ever any of the stuff happens he said if it cant be worked out within the congregation you are to bring the authorities in, because ultimately it would be a worldly crime. Right?
In all due respect my fever is to not slander a group based off of a man, an imperfect man or imperct men’s actions. I don’t say screw all apostates cause they are all evil, screw catholics cause they beliefs are different than mine, please let me save them from “drinking that kool aid” No when I comment to you or answer to any other sheep that needs a hand I use the only thing that truly matters, God’s word! I dont speak to you or comment to you from the watchower or from any publications printed from the organization. So please enlighten me I pray for wisdom to understand not only for me but others as well. I have friends in peurto rico and they say something different than.what the media says,have friends who went to bethel, walkhill or wherever and they in return say something different, have ones who read the book from franz and they something different and still serve as a witness. Had a sister who served throughout the holocaust and still remains firm throughout the so to say “false prophecies”. But then again all those things if I listened I would be listening to “men”. But to you minion keep questioning cause no one truly knows until that appointed time.
Drew says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:40 am
@caroline
Well directly would be jobs children, but indirectly you could say adams descendants, or when herod killed all boys trying to get to Jesus, then jesus himself when satan entered judas.
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minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:25 pm
@ Drew,
I’m happy your one of JWs.
This conversation is done.
Never forget this motto:
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
No one in more than 115,k congregations, can’t stand up and shout JWSurvey stands for Unity in Freedom for Thruth.
If you they do, please report back to us, We would All Love to hear the effective it had.
Peace out,
Rose says:
December 4, 2015 at 4:59 pm
Good on you Cedars! I don’t usually comment (guess I’m in the non-activist faction, I’ll raise some points with witness friends if they seem to be asking for it, but otherwise I prefer to be a contradiction to the “apostates are out to destroy your faith” propaganda) … but I just want to say I’m really glad there are people like you who are actively broadcasting a voice of reason. Sorry to hear you’ve been under attack.
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Revolution9 says:
December 4, 2015 at 5:46 pm
I haven’t commented here before, but this time I feel inclined to do so. I want to let you know that I’m really happy with the work you’ve been doing, it’s helped me and my sister (who was disfellowshipped two years ago) immensely.
It baffles me (although I’m not judging) that people can retain a shred of religious inclination after breaking free from the WT, and much more so when they leave, only to become Christian evangelicals. Your decision to start discussing your agnosticism in greater detail has my full support!
Keep up the good work, and don’t worry, it’s well appreciated!
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Elijah says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:42 pm
First time commenter here. And really, all I wanted to do is express my appreciation for what Cedars does and has done. It helps people more than you know. So many people like myself just silently lurk through these articles and YouTube videos. I myself haven’t broken free yet, and I’m not even sure what to believe at the moment (as far as atheism is concerned). But I continue to do open minded research on everything. It’s people like you and jwfacts.com that have helped push people like me in the right direction, so thank you.
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Winston Smith says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:00 am
@Elijah,
Congrats on your first comment. I was a lurker for many months too, before I gathered the courage to start commenting. And kudos on doing open-minded research. It sounds like you are mentally breaking free from the JW Cult. Physically breaking free takes time. Some folks make a planned exit or others (like me) simply fade away.
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Gameisover says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:40 pm
Cedars, I have been reading you for several years.
It helped me immensely. After nearly 50 years I mustered
The guts to leave knowing full well I would lose absolutely everything that matters: friends of a lifetime, children, gracile run. Most people who leave the cult become atheist. I’ve heard it to be c.70%
But what’s wrong with finding comfort by being Evangelical (I’m not) or Catholic or Buddhist or whatever.
And what’s wrong with sharing the happiness with others?
We are all in need of surviving this tragedy and people find different ways. Naturally we don’t want to use this blog to preach and recruit. We have already done that to last us for ten lifetimes.
I can see why you are upset about the vicious slander.
I was surprised
that you would write about it extensively,
alerting others to this. I didn’t know anything about these people but now I checked out some of their tirades.
They remind me of many people in the congregations I’ve been in (the number is legion) who were malicious gossipers, envious, back stabbers, and outright nasty.
These two just changed religion and continue to do what they do best. They are pathetic. I sort of feel sorry for them.
This article is a little out of character of the way I envision you. Defending yourself just adds fuel to their fire.
Life has taught me that silence is the strongest weapon.
Your wife is wise beyond her years.
Keep doing what you do so well.
Reply
Grace says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:16 am
Gameisover,
I agree. I have noticed that Lloyds biggest critics are some not all with other websites or blogs. It just seems glaringly obvious that there is jealousy & competition.
I would not like to get on the wrong side of those ones that are on that JWnet forum site that trash him. God! Those people scare me! They seem to be the vindictive types & to be honest a bit full of themselves that think that they’re beyond making mistakes.
I was a bit offended that one even said that there a few that would like to see him (John) go down. That just put me off the whole site & I don’t want to read another thing from there. There are a lot of good contributors there at times but I feel that the few that seem to be really nasty, ruin it. I had enough of people like that in the congregation. The backstabbing, jealous type.
The way that they speak about him is not justified & that saying rings true; “when you’re pointing the finger, there is 3 pointing back at you”.
If they thought about it. He hasn’t damaged any ones lives but has contributed to helping people finding their way out of cult. And whats he guilty of over there? He spoke down to some people so they say. So what! Wow, they need to get over themselves.
I’m sorry I have had to say something because I’m just sick to death of it. This site suits some people & not everyone & no we are not blindly worshipping the man, we just appreciate the platform he has given us.
Thank you, rant over.
Reply
Gameisover says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:47 pm
….grandchildren..
Reply
Winston Smith says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:49 am
@Gameisover
Dang autocorrect, eh? I was wondering what gracile run referred to. Thanks for clarifying.
WS
Reply
Excelsior! says:
December 5, 2015 at 8:22 am
Folks,
My previous comment has been removed.
It looks like my absense from this site will continue.
Lloyd,
How many copies of Crisis of Conscience were published by your friend?
Were they available for sale?
Did you get the copyright owner’s permission to publish them?
Are any fees due to the copyright owner?
It would be of benefit to me to know why my previous comment has been removed.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Caroline says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:57 am
Excelsior, are you sure it was removed? Usually there will be the name and a reason why a comment was removed.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:06 am
Good to hear from you Excelsior, my old compatriot. I hope this thing works out, and that you do return more frequently. You are missed.
Sorry to jump in, but I’ve wrestled with this issue a bit lately. I think that it really does come down to the fact that realizing the JW religion is a cult can literally be a life and death issue.
Whoever does own the rights to this lifesaving book, they don’t seem to be taking even the simplest steps to make it more easily available and affordable. Some of the books offered for a high price aren’t even the newest (4th) edition. There’s an easy way to physically publish it through Amazon, and an even easier way to publish it electronically there, and probably elsewhere.
I think the vast majority of people seeking this book would happily pay a reasonable amount for it if it were easier to do so somewhere. If I owned the rights, I’d have it available everywhere I could AND have my own website that popped up in the first few links when you search “Crisis of Conscience” on Google. I’d offer it at a reasonable price, or even at a reduced price due to the importance of it.
None of us can speak for Ray Franz, but rather than say he would want everybody getting it for free (which is certainly possible), I would more confidently say that Ray Franz would at least want the copyright owners to take some very simple steps to make it more easily available and affordable.
However, if it turns out that there is some legal entanglement making that impossible, then the profound importance of the material, to me, justifies alternate means of acquiring it.
But I know this doesn’t directly address your specific concerns regarding Lloyd and the fellow who printed a copy of the book. This is just something I’ve been thinking about lately, and thought it may have some relevance here.
Again, it’s good to see a comment here from you, my friend. I hope to see more of them.
Reply
Cedars says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:03 pm
Your comment was not “removed.” It was sent for moderation, and declined – and you were emailed with the reasons why it was declined. I cannot be fairer than that.
And why the sudden interrogation? Why am I being asked to answer for my friend? All pertinent details on this issue have been posted in the article. Your questions also indicate a lack of knowledge about how copyright works, so perhaps it would be better to educate yourself rather than ask me to fill in the blanks.
It’s a shame that, for whatever reason, you seem to wish to add fuel to the controversy. I held you in higher esteem than that.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:26 pm
Lloyd,
Firstly, I want to apologise for asking why my comment was deleted. You did indeed send me a private email, and I thank you for it.
I am saddened that you believe that I have added fuel to the controversy. I apologise if that is what I did in my comments.
Transparency is the key to peace over these multiple issues around M and K and yourself.
The copyright owner has said that she wants to make Ray Franz’s work available again. I hope that this will allow everyone to obtain a copy of his books that has no controversy or issues surrounding it.
I hope that the good work done by many activists, whatever their belief or non belief will be respected.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Winston Smith says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:36 am
Lloyd,
I appreciate this post and I will say that I agree with you on all counts. I don’t consider myself an atheist; I consider myself somewhere between a deist an a non-denominational Christian. What that means for me is that I believe there is a higher power as well as benefit in the Scriptures and in applying Christian values (especially those in the Sermon on the Mount), but I also recognize that there is a need to balance what you read in the Scriptures with reason and science.
Secularly, I consider myself a scientist (hold a Bachelor’s of Science, working on a Graduate Degree) and as such I recognize that many of the stories of scripture do not fit with what we know of science (specifically geology, archaeology, biology, and evolution) and really should be looked at as allegory. The fundamentalist (as well as JW) view to accept everything found in scripture as literal without exception is quite flawed. I also feel that someone can be spiritual, without being religious, and there is no need to belong to a specific religion or to attend specific religious services. I also have respect for members of non-Christian religions (provided they do not try to force their views on others) as I see all religious ideals as an attempt to rationalize our place in the cosmos. It’s a basic part of the human experience. As such, I respect everyone’s right to believe in what they will or to choose not to believe in anything.
The extreme Christian fundamentalists, in my opinion, can be as dangerous as members of militant Islam who attempt to operate through terrorism and violence. JW members who leave the Watchtower to join an extreme fundamentalist group are merely trading one cult for another. In fact, it has been noted by several experts (including Hassan, I believe) that people who leave one cult or high control group are vulnerable to become involved in another cult or high control relationship. Since many JW’s are deprived of an education (beyond the basics) and lack critical thinking skills, they are quite susceptible to other high control groups.
Extreme and borderline violent methods to try to awaken current JW members is counterproductive. In fact the Watchtower uses this behavior as a way to try to prove that they have the truth, being persecuted just like the early Christians were. This method is also unloving and unchristian. I feel the most fundamental teaching of Christ is summed up in the Golden Rule: treat others how you would like to be treated.
As for copyright issues over Crisis of Conscience, this is really a case of ‘making a mountain out of a mole hill.’ With the advent of the internet and digital media the entire concept of copyright has come into question. Another consideration is that Mr. & Mrs. Ray Franz are deceased and never had any children, so you are not depriving them of need income. Also, as a JW fader, at the time of my awakening (and even now to some extent) I could not risk bringing a hard copy of Crisis of Conscience into my home because of my JW wife, so without the PDF version I would not have had access to this valuable resource. I am of the opinion that vital information should not be hidden, but shared freely.
In closing, I very much appreciate the JW Survey website and your work as an activist. It is regrettable that some ignorant individuals are attempting to make trouble for you. You have my support as I well as the support of many other ex-JW’s.
On a side note, based on your comments about atheism as well as religion and science, check out some of the writings of Michael Shermer and Donald Prothero. Shermer is an atheist and the editor of Skeptic Magazine and Prothero a paleontologist/geologist. Both have taken a stand against extreme fundamentalist and creationist dogma.
WS
Reply
Robert67 says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:20 pm
Finding that balance between faith and undeniable science requires a lot of study and an open mind. The country I live in was founded by men who found a balance between secular and spiritual knowledge, in fact the great universities of this country were established to cement and protect the faith. All of its professors were ministers prepared to equip its students with knowledge of the Bible.
I also believe that being a jack of all trades, master of none is a frustrating thing. This applies to the ex-jw activism we do. The prices for Crisis of Conscious and In Search of Christian Freedom are a necessary learning tool, but are a bit too steep in cost. If someone can make them more affordable it’s all the better for the purpose they were intended for.
I already own both, but would love to see them available in print at a much cheaper price that would allow searchers of truth with little means to click on the buy it now button. Both brother and sister Franz have passed away and it’s their life’s work we should worry about protecting, which is the exposing of Watchtowers family and life destroying lies. Whatever the means.
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:47 am
Drew,
Your fever with JW cultness is alive and well. As I mentioned before, we all went down this road and exited from the merry-go-round. And that’s Not a bad thing.
We all fought hard to defend the JW cultness, however, the problem Your having Is Not to defend the indoctrination, Your Problem is You can not explain or defend the the JW cultness of Man-Made beliefs, that are Not found in the gospels of Jesus Christ.
For example; have your elders share with You the ‘elders book’, and have them explain, why do they have so many chapters – a freaking book. Chapters about oral sex, what you can and can not do in Your Private bed.
Why they still use the 2 witness rule in the book of Moses (Deut.) To protect crimes against children, teenagers, and adults. Worse they Do Not report the hediuos crime to the police.
And the list of JW Man-Made beliefs are unfounded in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
These are the serious issues your having to grasp. Your having a problem in handling the Thruth.
However, we in this blog – understand this action. We did the same thing.
Do you not agree with Jesus Christ, when he said, “I give you a New Commandment, (this expression means everything else would be null and void – No other law before or after Him would matter) to Love one another.”
To Love as I have Loved you, you must Love one another.
In summary, to you really believe in all your heart this level of expectation of ‘Love’ of which Jesus Christ speaks of resanates in your congregation, or is it conditional.?
Understand, we get it – your better off with your live as one of JWs. We will not question your faith.
However, explain the JW Man-Made beliefs not founded in the gospel.
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out
Reply
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The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
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Posted on December 2, 2015
There is a war going on among apostates, but it is no reason for gloating by Jehovah's Witnesses
There is a war going on among apostates, but it is no reason for gloating by Jehovah’s Witnesses
At the beginning of October I produced and participated in a video featuring 62 Jehovah’s Witness apostates from all over the world. The video has so far attracted more than 24,000 views.
Our message to believing JWs was simple: apostates are NOT your enemies. Apostates are simply JWs who have summoned the bravery to subject their cherished beliefs to objective scrutiny and logic, based on which they have decided to reject irrational, corrosive teachings and practices, and start afresh.
As should by now be obvious, I am (and always will be) a proud apostate. I am immensely relieved to have discovered, while still relatively young, that the beliefs passed on to me by my parents were false. I also derive great pleasure and personal satisfaction from being involved in raising awareness of the harm caused by cults such as Watchtower through my activism work.
But being a JW apostate does not mean I support and endorse the behavior, methods and agenda of ALL other JW apostates. Just because I come from a cult in which “unity” of thought and action is demanded, this does not oblige me to nurture similar “unity” to some mirror organization or community.
For example, a year ago I took the decision to distance myself from apostates who engage in aggressive forms of activism after I noticed an increase in videos being shared on Facebook showing certain individuals harassing Jehovah’s Witnesses on the street and at their places of worship.
Even though I didn’t name any names, or target anyone in particular, by merely stating the obvious on this issue (i.e. aggressive confrontation of cult victims is not conducive to their rehabilitation) I was subjected to a barrage of abuse and slander culminating in my being labelled a sexual predator, a stalker, a cyber bully, a cult leader and a wife beater by two individuals in particular – Mike and Kim Brooks, of New Mexico.
Since then, Mike and Kim, while insisting that I refrain from any criticism of them, seem to have set up camp as “Cedars Haters HQ.” Over the past 12 months they made two more videos with me as the subject, and have attracted a small army of similarly-fixated, mostly-Christian evangelical “haters” from across the ex-JW community.
In one of these videos, Mike Brooks threatened me with physical violence if I ever set foot in New Mexico. The “crime” that warranted a violent attack on me was my failure to apologize to another person for something within an arbitrarily-defined time period.
In the second video, both Mike and Kim condemned me for giving away an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience to my YouTube subscribers. Though the pair bemoaned the breach of copyright represented by my unauthorized copies, which were printed by a friend, both seemed oblivious to the fact that copyright laws are equally applicable to digital PDF copies, such as the PDF copy Kim Brooks admitted to having in the same video (and which was even being distributed on their website when their video was uploaded).*
A ‘community’ divided
Since first getting involved in activism work in 2011 I have had to deal with an unrelenting tide of criticism from fellow ex-JWs. Even my first attempts at setting up a survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses, which led to this website being launched, attracted controversy. Mike and Kim’s crusade against me, which is so clearly driven by deep resentment of my atheist views, is just the latest in a long line of aggravation I have become accustomed to dealing with.
I have repeatedly acknowledged that the majority of criticism of my work comes, not from Watchtower, but from my fellow ex-JWs. This, in my view, underscores just how damaging and corrosive the Watchtower cult is. Those who leave can be riddled with so much resentment and frustration that many can’t help but re-direct it at their fellow ex-members, who in their troubled minds become more worthy of criticism than Watchtower itself.
At times these “haters” get me down. I am, after all, only human and susceptible to sustained threats and abuse directed at me and my family. At other times I am able to shrug off the negativity and press on with my work. But with this latest “copyright” fiasco I feel something has changed, which is why I have decided to write this article. I assume my readers and YouTube subscribers value my treating them like adults and telling it like it is, and by pointing out the elephant in the room I will hopefully prepare you all for what lies ahead.
I have long understood that the so-called ex-JW “community” (I prefer to call it a movement) is composed of factions. You might be unaware of these factions if your only interaction with ex-JWs is brief forays on social media or forums. But when you deal with ex-JWs on a day-to-day basis as I do, the factions are all too obvious, and encompass two principle areas.
The Activism Spectrum
The first area, or spectrum, concerns activism. The following graphic gives you a rough sketch of the various mindsets…
activism-spectrum2At one end of the spectrum you have aggressive activists, who advocate confronting JWs on the street and in kingdom halls. A common defense of aggressive activism is: “All forms of activism are equally good, and different forms of activism work on different kinds of people.” My reply to this argument is that it overlooks how complex and deeply-entrenched cult indoctrination can be, and the delicacy and sensitivity required in disentangling someone from it.
Saying that all forms of activism are equally good is like saying all forms of dentistry are equally good. Just as a bad dentist can end up doing more harm than good, so can an activist who believes in storming into kingdom halls and berating cult victims as a means of helping them.
On the opposite end of the activism scale you have anti-activists, including JW apologists for Watchtower (but also some apostates) who oppose any attempts to wake up JWs from their indoctrination. You may consider it unthinkable to have such a mindset, but I have an awakened uncle who embraces it unashamedly. The attitude of awakened JWs who are against activism can be summed up as: “Thanks to the work of activists I’m now awake, but waking anyone else up through activism is distasteful. All the Witnesses still inside can fend for themselves.”
“Strategic activists” are those who take full advantage of online resources, including blogs and social media, to make it as easy as possible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to awaken without resorting to harassment or confrontation. You don’t need to have a blog or YouTube channel to be a strategic activist. You can get involved in strategic activism simply by supporting and promoting other strategic activists, or by sharing links to important articles or videos that may prove helpful in prompting JWs to start thinking for themselves.
“Armchair activists” is my description for usually-anonymous ex-JWs who for various reasons don’t do any activism themselves, but who offer guidance on how they would do it from the sidelines. Armchair activists can exert either a positive or negative influence. Their guidance ranges from constructive criticism and helpful advice to fierce attacks on the methods, motives and character of those actually involved in activism. There is at least one forum I can think of where armchair activists seem to be in the majority.
Non-activists are those, like my wife and many other friends of mine, who are simply grateful to have escaped Watchtower with their wits intact. They neither criticize activism nor involve themselves in it – they just dust themselves down and get on with their lives.
The Belief Spectrum
The second area of “factions,” and perhaps the area that effects me the most personally, is that of belief.
And it is much simpler to explain.
evangelical-atheist
Over the last four years, many will have noticed the tone of my articles and videos follow my journey from skeptical Christian, to agnostic, to agnostic atheist. Throughout this journey I have always striven to be as respectful towards believers as possible.
I understand that some people need religion in their lives, and though I find it both obsolete and in most cases repulsive, I personally cannot envision a world where everyone is atheist and nobody is religious. I also acknowledge that the majority of JWs who find themselves on this website will recoil if they feel coerced to abandon belief in God altogether.
It is for these reasons that JWsurvey has, and always will have, a “religious neutrality” policy displayed in our comments section, whereby it is prohibited to evangelize either religion OR atheism on these pages (i.e. “This belief system works for me – and everyone else had better embrace it too!”).
But, though I try to be as respectful and accommodating as possible towards believers, there is an evangelical Christian faction within the ex-JW movement, and it does not play by the same rules.
While some Christians jumped to my defense over last year’s aggressive activism debacle, rightly acknowledging that harassing cult victims is anything but loving and Christlike, they were worryingly few in number. Aggressive activism and evangelical Christianity, it seems, usually go hand in hand.
Worse still, though I hate that this is so, as of this moment I can probably count on one hand the number of friends I have who are both Christian and genuinely respectful of my lack of belief, including my right to criticize religion on my YouTube channel.
And I can understand the reason for this.
Though there are liberal Christians out there who embrace a “live and let live” approach, and who aren’t remotely concerned as to whether others around them embrace their beliefs or not, the simple truth is: evangelism is a part of Christianity. It is mandated for Christians by Jesus himself. (Matthew 28:19)
Christians who take their faith seriously are supposed to think that anyone who doesn’t share their belief in Jesus as savior has slightly (or radically) bleaker future prospects than they do. In that context, promoting one’s beliefs when the opportunity presents itself, such as when others are discussing religion on a website or forum, is only to be expected. In their minds, they are doing us all a favor.
But rather than its members simply extolling their own understanding of God and his requirements for humans, for some time now the evangelical Christian faction has adopted a troubling new approach: stamping out the fledgling ex-JW atheist faction wherever it manifests itself.
Again, I only need to dip into the way my mind was calibrated as a JW, and the motivation behind this offensive by the evangelical wing is as clear as day.
As a JW, apostates were not just slightly-misguided fellow creatures who were pitied but still worthy of respect. They were the enemy. The gloves were off. Apostates were agents of Satan himself who were to be, not just avoided at all costs, but resisted and repudiated if they made incursions into God’s organization and its all-important kingdom work.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the same righteous indignation fuels the hate-strewn rants of the likes of the Brooks’ and Alun Williams (another even more eccentric would-be spiritual mentor), to name only a few. They will not share the same space with unbelievers. They can barely tolerate the fact that unbelievers exist, but the moment an ex-JW unbeliever such as myself opens his mouth and criticizes their cherished beliefs on a suitably well-subscribed YouTube channel, this constitutes an act of war. I become “fair game” (to coin a Scientology expression), and any tactics no matter how underhanded may be brought to bear.
No perceived flaw or slip-up is too trivial to warrant an avalanche of criticism. Even giving away an unauthorized copy of a book is to be treated with horror and disgust, and responded to with character assassinations of the most severe kind – even if the one doing the criticizing is guilty of the same indiscretion.
By this point you are probably thinking: “Ok, I get it. There is an evangelical faction in the exJW community, and it has its knives sharpened for anyone like you who espouses atheism. But what is different? How has anything changed?”
The Christian evangelical faction has, to my knowledge, always been mostly populated by demonstrably-eccentric conspiracy theorists, obsessed with freemasonry, subliminal images and the illuminati, who are almost a parody of themselves. But, like Donald Trump, against all odds they are gaining in influence, and have already attracted a respectable portfolio of more eloquent, credible spokespersons to rally to their banner.
This latest copyright fiasco came as a surprise, not because of the ferocity of the attack over such a trivial issue, but because it succeeded in duping a number of fellow activists – including a couple of respectable Christians I was hitherto friends with, who gave me bear hugs last time I met them in person, and who have featured on my YouTube channel.
I was previously unaware of there being any animosity between this couple (who I can’t name) and myself, and they were even friends with me on Facebook. But one of them made it clear in a private email exchange with a mutual friend that, because I offered an unauthorized copy of a book on my YouTube channel, I am to be considered “toxic,” a “liability” and “bad for business.”
The vitriolic tirade in which these sentiments appeared was apparently an ill-judged attempt to use the copyright issue as leverage to turn my friend and certain other fellow activists against me and my work. The person was, in effect, outing themselves as a “Cedars hater” and siding with Mike and Kim Brooks.
Again, you are probably thinking: “So what? Why do I need to know all this? Why do you even need to write about it? By writing about it you are only exacerbating an already fraught situation, and possibly putting off JWs who will leap on all this as evidence that life outside Watchtower is full of bickering and turmoil.”
I am writing about this situation because it matters – or should matter to those who value free inquiry and intellectual honesty over religious zealotry and unfounded dogma. Things will not improve by ignoring the underlying problem, the elephant in the room. Whether I like it or not, a bitter war between the evangelical and atheist factions in the ex-JW community is raging – and it has just escalated.
A war I don’t want
I did not sign up to be an activist four years ago because I sought confrontation and controversy. Believe it or not, I loath confrontation and will avoid it where possible. But whether I like fighting or not, fighting – if only of the defensive sort – is precisely what I must now do if I am to continue despite sustained efforts to silence my atheism by those who insist everyone should believe as they do.
What matters to me is not power, prestige, money or popularity. If I wanted those things, there are far easier ways of obtaining them than being a secular-minded ex-JW anti-cult activist. What matters to me is one thing, and one thing alone: the fight for truth. It is a fight that has been going on for centuries, fought by great minds and inspirational individuals who have made immense individual sacrifices to birth a society as tolerant and progressive as the one we now enjoy.
But nothing can be taken for granted, and those who insist on inflicting their ignorance on everyone else are far from disappearing in the rear view mirror. The struggle continues and effects all of us, whether it is creationists rallying for equal time in the classroom, or gays and lesbians being denied equal rights, or jihadists trying to burn civilization as we know it. And in my own corner of this global battlefield, I refuse to keel over and capitulate to evangelical thugs such as Mike and Kim Brooks or those they succeed in enticing to flock to their anti-intellectual crusade.
That is why I wanted to let my readers and YouTube subscribers know that, from now on, I will be more open than ever about my atheism, and my channel will feature more videos specifically on that subject. It is painfully apparent from my interactions with Christian evangelical ex-JWs that many of them are completely unaware of the arguments for unbelief, and I want to do my part to redress the balance.
JWsurvey, meanwhile, will remain for the most part as it is now – a welcoming environment for both the religious and secular-inclined alike. Scriptures will continue to be freely cited where necessary, because even though Christianity is objectively without evidence as a belief system, it just so happens that the bible is still in conflict with the teachings and practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses in a plethora of areas.
Finally, a message…
To my critics I say: Get off my back, or prepare for a long and bitter struggle, because I didn’t break free from years of cult servitude to be told to “shut up,” and I won’t be bullied. And even if you should succeed in silencing me, ultimately the wind is in the sails of free inquiry, science and reason. Others will pick up my baton when I finish, and I am already far from alone.
To my friends I say: Thank you so much for your support, but PLEASE refrain from attacking those who attack me. By doing so you only bolster their persecution complex, and rather than take out their frustration on you they will only escalate their onslaught.
And to Jehovah’s Witnesses who might be reading this, I say: The fact that ex-JW apostates are fighting each other is not evidence that you are not in a cult. It only means that Watchtower indoctrination has a range of extremely unpleasant side-effects, which include suspicion, paranoia, jealousy, anger and bitterness. All of those things can be found in abundance in kingdom halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but at least those of us on the outside have the ability to choose who our friends are for ourselves. And the longer you stay in the cult, the more pronounced those characteristics may be when you are finally able to walk away.
new-cedars-signature3
*For the record, I do not say there was nothing wrong in my offering an unauthorized copy of Crisis of Conscience. I merely say that apologies need to go to those to whom they are owed, and any breach of copyright is strictly an issue between me and the copyright holder. And if you insist on besieging me with complaints on the matter, if you are fair and consistent you must similarly rebuke everyone who has involved themselves in downloading or distributing a PDF of the book – something the copyright holder has hitherto done nothing, to my knowledge, to halt. Others have complained that the JWsurvey.org logo has been added to the copy I was giving away, but the logo was added by my friend, not me – not that I think doing so was the heinous crime people are framing it as. And if you are to chastise me simply because my website is advertised on someone else’s copy of a book, you also need to level similar criticism at the owner of the JWfacts.com website, which is also endorsed.
Further reading…
◾Why I can no longer support aggressive forms of activism against Jehovah’s Witnesses
◾My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
Related video…
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237 Responses to The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
← Older Comments
Deep Thinker says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:14 am
Just want to mention what Winston Churchill said:
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.”
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:14 am
@ Deep Thinker,
In these battles the enemy was a worthy opponent.
However, with current JWSurvey haters – these are unworthy, unfit, unjustifiable, inconclusive, uncertified, and mentality disease (I quote WT terminology).
Unworthy of an opponent to battle. The battle is already won.
Internet numbers viewership don’t lie.
Watchtower Corporation does lie.
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:04 am
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out
Reply
rikos says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:57 pm
some time last year i send mike recommendations that the way he was speaking to the jehovah witnesses was totally unacceptable,disrespectful, with anger and nerve.
i was very embarrassed to be ex-jehovah witnesses. i ask him to change his style, to be culm and to respect those people who was still in captivity inside the watchtower. the only way you can help those people is if you imitate other ex-jehovah witnesses in a good nobility and respect. In reply he make a video part was towards me to criticize my english and he express anger and humility towards me. i continue to lessening to his videos because he was unveiled good information, i am not complain to anyone i am just expressing myself how embarrassing i was when our movement should be very professional.
Reply
Tony Brock says:
December 5, 2015 at 6:52 pm
This is a very important article. This discord between ex-JW’s really took me by surprise after joining Facebook and connecting with so many. I think that when you have spent your whole life as a JW, you are used to JW’s being on the same page with you at all times (even though they likely went home and bashed you behind your back – I know I did). You had to pretend that you were all friends, all the time. Now as I connect with ex-JW’s, I see that this guard has (reasonably) been let down. I assumed all would be rational, skeptical thinkers. Many are, but I have also ran into my fair share of evangelicals, conspiracy theorists, and far left and right wingers. Being technically still in and attending meetings, it would be easy to see going back as an easy option. There are times when I look around the hall and think, “Man, these are really nice people, maybe I am making a mistake.” Obviously, this is intellectually dishonest, but it appeals to me emotionally.
Thank you for such a timely article.
Tony “arm-chair activist for now” Brock
Reply
Robert67 says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:54 pm
It seems there is no real owner of the rights to Crisis of Concious and Search of Christian Freedom. I would still attempt some due diligence, but found this on another ex jw website. I don’t know how I would feel about someone trying to make a living off of Rays work, but I do know his message has to continue to help others. Still hearing about current JW’s acquiring current copies of these life saving books, just to destroy them.
It is simple. Ray had a glut of the previous 3rd-cover edition, before the last paperback version, which was revised from the hardcover. Ray had a garage full of hardcovers that weren’t selling good, since a newer and cheaper paperback version was printed by Amazon. Dan Dystra And his wife Deb took care of Cynthia, and Deb took over the book sales, and wanted to get rid of the remaining hardcovers, so they didn’t want to paperback on Amazon yet. So
Deb and Cynthia decided it was best to hold back distributing the newer revised paperback until they unloaded much of the hardcovers. There were stalls along the way. Not a scheme, just they need to unload a garage full of books, originally printed by Tom Cabeen’s company.
So now you can get the newer paperback cheap, and the older hardcover. Best bet is the downloads! Save your money.
No scam, just practical idea that took way too long to implement, thus the VERY high prices on Amazon for awhile. Before Deb, I was basically the only authorized seller except for a couple of others of his friends.
Now Amazon has the rights to print and distribute it. But it is offline for now, and only the expensive versions are listed. Get a digital copy! I shut down my store, and never made much money from them, although I sold thousands over the years, I guess the garage still has quite a few paperbacks left. Not good marketing strategy for such a needed book, but the girls must know what they are doing. (???)
When I die I will be forgotten in a month. No big deal. I just want my scrapbooks up!
When I ended up in the hospital two years ago, got out with no explanation of my problem and they still haven’t figured it out yet, only about 4 or 5 people out of my 2800 subscribers bothered to email me, and NONE from this board. Even all my own bloggers! That’s why I shut down freeminds2.org. I canned the site because of my “helpers” and “bloggers.” It wasn’t worth killing myself and trying to help unappreciative persons and people who offered their help and bailed, leaving me dead in the water. . Life on the internet is fleeting.
Doesn’t bother me, I could do without all the phone calls and donations then. couldn’t even take a salary after that, as 90% of our income disappeared, just because I wasn ‘t posting on the net daily. What kind of stupidity is that? Even my own bloggers weren’t interested in what happened to me. I’m over busting my ass on the Net, but freeminds.org will always continue, at least as a monument to my blood, sweat and tears for over 30 years. But I am more than happy with what I’ve accomplished MYSELF.
Going to reinvent myself, if I can overcome my bodily fractures. I can barely walk now, and the doctors can’t figure it out. I have learned I always have to do things myself, or they won’t get done. But I’m used to living that philosophy.
I have probably the only person-run cult ministry in the world that could gross over 100k a year the last few years, with NO money from churches, organizations, or very little from people on this site. I shut down my stores.
But I had a lot of generous givers that I made friends with 25-30 years ago, and they still are great friends, but they have all but retired. They kept me alive. Kudos to the Jansmas, Danny Haszard, and many other great friends of mine, who except for Danny never really visited this site. Making good friends and keeping them is the key to life… and NOT internet-only friends. Poof! and they’re gone one day. A waste of time when you’ve already accomplished what you wanted to from the start. And I did, much more so than I expected.
I was one of the very first on the Net re: JWs in 1996, and always had the greatest traffic for decades… over 2k unique visitors a day. There are still several gigs of files, video and audio on my site, but have to fix some links now that all will be part of the freeminds.org site. I dumped all the stuff from freeminds2.org… it wasn’t me at all, and all who ASKED to help that proposed to fix and work on the site bailed, dropping my income to $2800 a year because the site was broken. But I know of no one else that could, by themselves, draw in over 100k a year consistently before they came along and broke it all. But they meant well.
Oh well, I need a permanent vacation.
peace,
Randy Watters
http://randallwatters.org (links to be fixed shortly)
Reply
Pat says:
December 6, 2015 at 9:44 pm
Randy, I left the WT in 1997 and you’re site was instrumental in my exit. When it became inactive I just thought you had had enough! I’m so sorry that it was your health that was the culprit, and also that hardly anyone (including myself) thought to ask if you were alright. As you say, blogs etc on the internet come and go and probably people accept that for what it is. Once again, apologies to you and best wishes in regard to your health.
Reply
Peter Jeuck says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:21 pm
Having grown up in a family and religious environment that was hostile to education I attended college ten years after I should have after graduating high school. In college I drifted into a scientific, physical sciences curriculum because I discovered I was good at mathematics. I went on to obtain a graduate degree in engineering. Still it took another 20+ years before I would fully wake up to the truth. I fought hard for my personal intellectual freedom, and through the years drew increased criticism from among those I knew in my childhood religion to the level of vitriol. I am now personally the happiest I’ve ever been in my entire life. What scares me the most is the increasing activity, political and socially, by increasingly organized Christian radicalism to silence freedom of thought, expression and sciences based truth. Yes my faith has been lost. But with that loss of faith I gained a freedom of mind that I wish for all. There is a war and the war is against such freedoms we now enjoy being waged by a closed minded majority. I find it hard to believe that the majority of people in the nation I live in, the stalwart of freedom has almost the lowest percentage of people who accept evolution as true. I think the battle against ignorance is broadening and intensifying. I worry about the kind of world my five month old grandson will have to live in. All systems that prey on people’s minds whether they are considered a cult or main stream, if their goal is to crush and defeat reason and truth, their true goal is eliminating everyone’s freedom.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
December 6, 2015 at 10:05 am
Peter,
It sounds like you and I followed similar paths, although I may have been 10 -15 years behind you. Due to the controlling religious environment I grew up in as well, I also did not attend college until about 10 years after high school. I also pursued a degree in Applied Sciences (as I mentioned in an earlier post I am currently pursuing my graduate level degree).
I definitely credit the education I received at my University for developing and honing my critical thinking skills. It took me about another 10 years (from the time I began college) to start to fully wake up to the truth about the Truth. Certain congregational developments assisted me in seeing things as they truly were (In scientific terms I call these developments “catalysts” for a reaction that would have simply occurred more slowly without them).
You didn’t indicate what country you were from – I’m from the US and we have a major issue with the fundamentalist and creationist agendas (and their heavy involvement in the political system). There is just so much misinformation out there. I have been faded from the JW religion for about 3 years, and it wasn’t until about 1-1/2 years ago that I started to truly appreciate the scientific validity of the Theory of Evolution. I mentioned this author in an earlier post, Donald Prothero, and I found his book “Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters” very insightful into the facts about fossil discoveries and the flawed reasoning of creationists. I later learned that the JW Creation Book was mostly a regurgitation of creationist concepts. Protherto pointed out that it is entirely possible for a person to be both spiritual/religious and scientific. But the reality is that the two have little to do with each other.
Science is based on facts, that which we can observe, while religion is based solely on faith. I came to realize that I believe in a higher power simply because I choose to. Others can choose not to. Generally speaking, you cannot factually argue in favor of one belief system over another. They are based on faith. Even the scriptures admit that “faith is not a possession of all people” (2 Thes 3:2). And it’s okay if someone does not possess religious faith or they simply have a different faith from you. It’s not a reason to hate.
WS
Reply
David says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:57 pm
Just want to let you know that there are probably many more like me, who really enjoy reading your articles.
I can only speak for myself, of course, but I have been reading your articles now for years. Only in the beginning I was commenting on some, but mostly I tried to be brief and just thank you for a good written article, as I want to do this time again. Already then I felt that there would be quite some who really loved criticizing other views, so I saw it as wise not to comment too much. It’s not nice to hear what you have to go through now, while just helping others to awaken to this cult. You were a big help for me going through this phase of my life. I’m not saying this was the only help, but one of the very big ones. So, thank you for continuing this. You certainly have a gift, many others don’t have. Wishing you all the best and hope you have the strength to go on!
Reply
Omar says:
December 6, 2015 at 9:38 am
This interesting reading, Thank to John. I watch video exJW and watch this one:
http://youtu.be/cLMJUiEl2Lc
Also interesting video. I need Conscience Crisis en espanol.
Reply
Frenchman says:
December 6, 2015 at 9:40 am
Looking forward for more outspoken atheist views! Religious people speak out unapologetically. The world would be better off without religion. We’re reminded of this everyday. Enough with fairy tales, imaginary friends, delusion, after worlds, ignorance, cult of death and negation of this only life.
Being french, I will quote the french philosopher Michel Onfray with a sentence I subscribe entirely to: “Atheism is not therapy, but restored mental health”. It says it all.
Reply
RetiredLE says:
December 6, 2015 at 2:29 pm
“The worst kind of oppression is when the victims think and talk in the language of their oppressors.”
― M.F. Moonzajer, LOVE, HATRED AND MADNESS
Reply
Gwen says:
December 6, 2015 at 3:19 pm
It is so disheartening to hear about fellow exJWs behaving in this manner. I am still a Christian but I acknowledge that there is really no proof of my belief system, hence it is a faith. I respect atheists, agnostics, heck, even Jehovah’s Witnesses. Of course, I may disagree with other people’s beliefs but to each his own. It disappoints me when I hear about fellow Christians behaving in a very un-Christ-like manner. You do good work, Cedars and I am grateful for it. Please don’t let anyone discourage you from fighting the good fight against Watchtower. My activism is limited to witnessing to JWs when they come to my door – asking the questions that get them thinking about their doctrines but in a manner respectful of their humanity. I wish I had the time and energy to do the kind of work that you do. I certainly wouldn’t criticize anyone who spends their time and effort and money helping others to escape a damaging cult.
Reply
Pat says:
December 6, 2015 at 9:58 pm
To coin a phrase “why can’t we all just get along?” Very upsetting to hear about all this kerfuffle yet as others as well as Cedars have said, we couldn’t have independent thoughts or speech while we were in WT so I suppose it’s inevitable there are clashes of opinion now we are free to express ourselves. Sad that the ‘us against them’ mentality continues to flourish even after WT. As a journey to atheism was my own experience, I shake my head. What difference are we to WT if we continue to squabble between us? I don’t think spouting vitriol against each other accomplishes anything. I listened to Mike and Kim once and once only, they are not for me. I enjoy jwsurvey and Cedars youtube channel and thank you for them Lloyd. I enjoy other activists contributions too. As an armchair activist I am in awe of the amount of work people put into it. My thanks to all of you.
Reply
Man from the lions pit says:
December 6, 2015 at 11:10 pm
Hi Lloyd I’m just re posting my comment for you from the begging of this concussion because I posted as replay to other commenter and not as direct reply to you.This is overflowing with reaction and I’m pleased to see that majority is of your support with many commenting for first time !
———————————
I have kind same concern as Ken S above.
To be brief I would say at fist that you are different class than Mike & Kim.
I saw ones of their videos some time ago but simply put it’s not for me.
So if you want “fight”them its up to you but I think it’s a waist of time and energy but I respect your current feelings.Just keep in mind that feelings are subject of change in time and space. :-)
So my concern is if you will be able to keep you mind frame in same good shape and focus on your original objective “to give voice to silent majority” as ex JW on this platform at the same time profile yourself in Y tube channel as “advocate of atheism in fight against evangelical Christians”.
To me this is asking about kind bipolar approach which will weaken your current strong position in this segment.
The success (I don’t mean commercial or how many visitors your site have) of JW Surwey is that you were able to tackle some issues of JW.org in original way thus pleasing to many .You open eyes (awake) of many of JW community so this ability and position will be endanger in my humble opinion.
I respect your personal development as you described that you came from being a JW trough agnosticism to atheism but don’t forget the journey of searching for the TRUTH in life doesn’t end in the camp of the atheist.
If than would be case than we wouldn’t have those who leave this camp in disappointment and go there where the others come from or somewhere else.
My best wishes to you and your family Loyd,stay strong bro !
Reply
phoenix_rising says:
December 7, 2015 at 11:43 am
I was also surprised to see the level of chaos within the ex-JW community. I think it has to do with people being held down like a spring when they are in the organization – then once out they just fly off. It’s like yes the chains have been removed but its not an excuse for crummy behavior. I refuse to be one of those bitter ex-JW’s. Better to have learned the truth about the truth then to die in darkness mentally. When I see ones bemoaning their age in relation to how long they were in darkness – Well okay! You were deceived by a lie and maybe you feel cheated. But guess what – you are now in charge of your destiny! Make the most of it! Don’t become some foam at the mouth snot like I see certain ones on youtube. If you’re going to engage with the ex-JW community then contribute something. Be positive. Know when to laugh at the organization. Know when to laugh at yourself. Know when to be angry and to focus that anger on the right things.
But most importantly remind yourself what you have gained: True Freedom. As I type this I sit in my office and look out and see my co-workers – many who I am going to spend time with during Christmas. And I appreciate that I am no longer afraid of worldly people – they haven’t hurt me – they wont shun me because of differing views. But I also have some work to do! I need to finish school – start working out again – and take advantage of the years I have left. Not out of spite but out of celebration that the years I have left are my years – and what I get out of them is what I put into them.
Everyday I make a list of three things to do. They are always random. Here is today’s list.
1) Hold the door for someone
2) Make someone laugh
3) Help someone disadvantaged feel valued
Simple and silly I know – but its been helping me take the focus off of being shunned. Atheist – God believing – whatever you believe – we should all treat each other kindly and with respect. Those are just my two cents. I hope this brought a little cheer to some of you.
Reply
Rhentt says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:41 am
You, good sir, are an inspiration. Your work has helped thousands of cult members find their way out, and thousands of cult survivors make sense of things that didn’t seem right. Please, for the thousands more to be reached, don’t let the self righteous hypocrites get you down. Assholes come and go, the good guys stick around through the tough times. Thank you for all you do.
Reply
Amber says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:40 pm
I think it is clear to anyone with common sense that Mike & Kim are a little bit “off”. Just the fact that they send a Cease & Desist letter to keep Lloyd from mentioning THEM in any of his videos, but then have the audacity to still mention HIM in their videos shows that they are a few french fries short of a happy meal. And the crazy video Mike made to “reprimand” Lloyd for something that was absolutely none of his business, really was the icing on the cake. I was embarassed for him and what a spectacle he made of himself, but it also really angered me because of his pompous, self righteous attitude. Just like the JW elder mentality…disgusting.
Reply
KeriG says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:29 pm
Like others, I want to say thank you. Thank you for the articles and videos, which have truly been a key for my own awakening. I’m glad you will not be bullied by the likes of those you mentioned, and I hope you can continue to not let it get under your skin (I don’t know that I could). I remember watching a few of the videos of those mentioned and I found them very off-putting. I realize now why that was the case. They sound like they are still within the organization. They sound bitter. There was at least one family within every congregation I ever attended who sounded like this. They didn’t believe they were getting the recognition they deserved, they complained and talked behind the backs of those who they perceived or did receive ‘special privileges’, and they were always the ones with the latest gossip about who was in trouble and for what (whether the information they were spreading was accurate or not!). This couple has obviously brought this mentality with them to their crusade. I would refer to it as an anti-WT crusade, but this does not seem to be the case. I don’t say this as an attack on them, but this was the perception that I had from them, which made me entirely grateful to find this website and articles.
I also applaud you for expressing more atheistic views going forward. I went from deistic, to agnostic, to agnostic atheist during my own time waking. I think it is as important for people who are waking up to see there is a community of people who no longer have a belief in religion, as there is a community for those who are still religiously inclined. Coming out from under indoctrination is hard enough without thinking that you have put yourself at odds with those who could be your allies, as most have already been cutoff from their former support.
So good job. Keep posting excellent articles and videos. I may not have children yet, but you still have helped save any future ones from growing up in this cult.
Reply
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The Friday Column: Portuguese documentary overshadows Governing Body visit
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Posted on December 4, 2015
Portuguese journalist Ana Leal outside the branch office in Alcabideche
Portuguese journalist Ana Leal outside the branch office in Alcabideche
David Splane, of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, visited the branch office (Bethel) in Portugal at the beginning of November 2015.
The purpose of such a cyclical visit is usually to gather information and to check on whether the Branch is operating in compliance with Governing Body guidelines.
David Splane brought news of changes in the organizational structure. He confirmed the rumors of cuts in personnel at Bethel and the removal of special pioneers, both in Portugal and other Portuguese-speaking countries.
The numbers of those being “released” – sacked, or made redundant – as a result of downsizing is significant. About 30% of Bethelites will have to leave the Portuguese Bethel family and return to ‘serve’ in their former congregations. Similarly, many special pioneers scattered within Portugal and the Islands will be surplus to requirements. The Islands include Madeira, The Azores, Cape Verde and São Tomé e PrÃncipe.
It must be disheartening to lose a “lifetime career” having complied with the demand to put first the kingdom of God. No doubt many felt safe under the protective wing of the parent organization, recently re-branded as JW dot org.
David Splane made the announcements on Sunday, 1st November 2015 (via internet streaming from Bethel in Carnaxide), to almost 50,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses throughout the Portuguese territory and African countries where Portuguese is the official language.
Splane’s visit to Portugal and speech coincided with a major documentary entitled “In the Shadow of Sin” broadcast on the Portuguese Reporter TVI channel by the investigative journalist Ana Leal.
The documentary shown on the 18th October explored, for the first time on Portuguese TV, the impact of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ damaging child abuse policies, their response to domestic violence and other harmful practices.
The documentary prompted many watching Jehovah’s Witnesses who immediately felt betrayed to call Bethel asking questions. They were told the documentary was apostate lies.
Here is the documentary, now for the first time with English subtitles…
Early on in Splane’s speech, he mentioned reports that “speak evil” of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Clearly the purpose of this warning was to calm the fears of his audience who had been disturbed by the documentary shown at prime time on Portuguese TV.
In an attempt at deflecting attention away from the issues of child molestation and other abuses raised in the documentary, David Splane suggested that it is bad journalism to seek only one side of the story.
His comments appeared to be a direct reference to the TVI Reporter documentary and the main investigative journalist Ana Leal.
Splane said, “after all, there are always two sides to the story and a journalist who does not seek to check the facts, hearing only one side is not a professional. A journalist that operates in that way just wants to get a sensational story and, therefore, it will be a bad story, not a factual story.”
Of course, good journalistic practice and ethics demand that both sides of a story should be presented, so that the reader, watcher or curious lurker can draw their conclusions.
What David Splane omitted to tell the almost 50,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses who were listening in, is that the documentary was the responsibility of the well-known and award-winning journalist Ana Leal. He failed to inform his audience not only that the journalist sought the help of Jehovah’s Witnesses by contacting Bethel so that a counter view could be made to the gathered content. He also neglected to mention that she had made videos and transcripts available for comment before the broadcast, and also contacted various congregations inviting them to participate.
She was keen to share positive experiences of what it means to be a Jehovah’s Witness.
David Splane’s speech was disingenuous in attempting to raise doubts as to the credibility of the journalist. But his intentions were clear from his statement “… and so we usually leave things as they are, and let the story die.”
Bethel in Portugal did not provide any statements or offer any comment “contradicting or confirming,” the testimonies or stories within the documentary. All Jehovah’s Witnesses contacted refused to speak or take part.
This fact was made clear at the end of the documentary. TVI’s commentator, Judith de Sousa, stated:
“TVI tried to speak to the Jehovah’s Witness organization about all these charges, but they declined the invitation to take part.”
The journalist Ana Leal was not pleased at David Splane’s shabby attempt at undermining her journalistic integrity.
After listening to Splane’s speech, she had this to say:
“It is easy to see the impressive manipulation of Jehovah’s Witnesses at the hands of their leadership. Mr Splane blatantly tried to suggest that a report is partial and biased if both sides of the story are not shared.”
After listening to Splane’s speech and the comments directly related to her report, she returned to Bethel with a film crew ready to record a Watchtower rebuttal. She was determined to put on record that it was Bethel that had refused to give an interview. Ana Leal filmed outside Bethel and asked again for a response. She was invited into Bethel and waited 30 minutes in a room for the Watchtower to comment. Eventually, Branch Office Committee head, Pedro Candeias, appeared and said: “We have nothing else to add.” (see video below)
The journalist Ana Leal and the documentary team now fully comprehend why the leadership tried to undermine her credibility. The Governing Body’s tactic is clear: they want the documentary to “die.”
But this strategy, on this occasion, has been publicly called out on Portuguese TV.
Now with English subtitles, this documentary with testimonies and survivor stories can be shared more widely. The Governing Body will have to think up a new tactic to silence abuse survivors and journalists who are willing to document Watchtower’s policy failures.
susannah-signature
Documentary Translation by Susanna, and subtitles by Carlos Fernandes (TJ Curioso)
For more information on this and other stories in Portuguese, please visit extj.net
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← The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
Royal Commission findings: Watchtower policies place JW children “at significant risk of sexual abuse” →
180 Responses to The Friday Column: Portuguese documentary overshadows Governing Body visit
Newer Comments →
PJ Wilcox says:
December 4, 2015 at 6:19 am
Great Job
This just shows how untruthful those of the governing body are. They should worry. I just wonder how much sexual child abuse has gone on in Portugal? We see it in Australia, Great Britain, Ireland, USA and I am sure many other counties except they have not made it to the courts yet
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jason says:
December 4, 2015 at 6:57 am
Thank – you for such a well written and informative article. It’s only by such, the real story will be told…and hopefully others can be free of Watchtower control and mental abuse.
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Robert67 says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:04 am
Amazing story, cannot believe that Splane would side with”the father of lies”. There is no integrity at Watchtower.
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DavidR says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:26 am
This is wonderful. I will have to watch the videos later but its great to see more journalists kicking over this stone to see the creepy underside of this “loving organization”.
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Meredith J says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:09 pm
Couldn’t agree more. I have had the feeling that in the past, although being rebuffed by the Watchtower, most journos have probably feared being sued by their powerful law team. Doesn’t look like that is the case anymore. You cannot fight the truth forever even with a crack legal team.
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Susan says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:29 am
This has been their strategy since the beginning of time: leave it in Jehovah’s hands and then let it die. A JW child has been abused and what do they do? NOTHING! A JW sister is raped and what do they do? NOTHING! They are very good at this because that’s all they have ever done (that and blame their victims). They have a history of lies and false prophecies that they do not answer for nor apologize for.
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SIRIUS says:
December 5, 2015 at 8:27 am
@Susan
Your arrow has hit the target!
Here’s the circular loop logic some elder’s like to use to seeming acknowledge(empathy) wrong doings and then make it rather excusable with, “The wicked men will be removed..” 1Cor 5:13. IF, the NWT is a standard practice to follow being “preventable” why are the GB’s so reactive to crisis? Never saw it coming?!?!?!
I guess it never dawned on the GB it’s rife with “wicked” men!
IMHO
dogstar
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Chiafade says:
December 5, 2015 at 8:09 pm
Yes! And even their empathy lacks true compassion. An example of that is in a statement I’ve heard from more than one elder when its brought up: “why doesn’t the gb acknowledge when they are wrong? Like with their view on blood fractions in the 60’s with many dying as a result until that was changed years later? Or organ transplants? Both of these resulting in many deaths”. Elders reply? : ” what do you think will happen for those who died for being obedient? That’s why we have the resurrection hope.”
What a loving and compassionate response to the family of those who died for following the directives of the org right?
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Winston Smith says:
December 6, 2015 at 11:16 am
Spot on Chiafade! Their concept that “God will fix everything” becomes an excuse for all manner of indiscretion and poor judgement. Meanwhile they ruin peoples lives and simply tell them to ‘wait on Jehovah.’ And if someone complains they are demonized by the Org as having a lack of faith or loving the things of the world.
WS
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Holy Connoli says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:34 am
I am a Portuguese American 2nd generation and that video hit home with me as I could see the same Brainwashing effects from the WT are all over the World.
There Cultish ways are so destructive everywhere. When you take away a persons right to think it pulverizes them into powder. I could relate to many of those things my Portuguese brothers were expressing. When I was an Active JW and Elder for over 22 years I kept asking myself why I was so depressed much of the time and how could the WT come up with some of these CRZY teachings etc and rules. I always thought I wasn’t spiritual enough and I would argue with My Pioneer wife that these rules make no sense and 1914 is not legit and false. She would cry and tell me I needed more faith etc. She even would call me a COWARD if I believed what was saying and still was a JW! It is a VERY BAD and damaging religion. About 10 years ago I told a JW friend that the 1914 teaching was going to bring the WT down bc it just isn’t true and their belief system revolves around that teaching. It is obvious that it is a false teaching but now seeing how SLICK they are and how manipulative they are I am not sure they will come down as fast as I had anticipated? Any thought from you readers on that Idea?
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Susan says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:24 am
So glad you made it out! Leading cult expert Steven Hassan wrote that followers of these types of cults when given a doomsday date, will actually come out STRONGER after that date passes and nothing happens! Sure some wake up and manage to get out, but most stay. They survived all the other false prophecies concerning 1874, 1914, 1918, 1925 and 1975 by spinning the facts, blaming the members for reading too much into it and then they carry on business as usual. Their members have invested too much into the cult: sacrificing an education and a career, possibly not getting married and not having kids, they may have shunned family or lost a loved one who refused blood and they really want the fairy tale to be true – so they stay, closing their eyes to a life they never got to live.
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Drew says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:08 am
Well as an active jw I have asked questions and have not been rebuked or abandoned. Havent lost any to a blood transfusion issue, I am married with 4 kids to wife that was an unbeliever that now serves faithfully. Had a great career and education, still atend family reunions. Those who were serving during those dates you mention still serve faithfully cause letters were address to the congregations about the misinterpreted dates, but on each of those dates in history something did take place, didnt it? So why do we keep slandering religions or people, this is exactly what satan wants. Love jehovah with your whole heart he even says question everything if its from men, but the bible that is what I follow and what I believe in not man. Thank you have a blessed day
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Susannah says:
December 5, 2015 at 3:00 am
Hi Drew,
The video (which I hoped you watched) presents facts and evidence – not slander.
You said “Something happened” during those dates?
What happened in 1975? I know the Beatles were on a “Fantasy” concert tour around that time. Jesus Christ Superstar was a film JW’s were upset about. The Rocky Horror show opened. In the 63rd Women’s Australian Open: Evonne Goolagong Cawley beat Martina Navratilova (6-3, 6-2)
But other than that 1975 was a non event.
I remember the JW hype. I spent 1975, banging on doors, half panicked and in drone mode.
I did go and see Jesus Christ Superstar with a school friend. Never told my mom! She is in her 90’s. Does not speak to her daughter, who loves her very much. Another fact not slander.
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Dodger says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:38 am
I was born in 1975 :-)
If you and your family are all 100% happy and fulfilled in your current position, by all means, continue on and enjoy your life to the full.
“Slander” is “The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation.” The key word here is [false]. If what is being said is true, then it is not slander. If it is not true, then WT should defend itself, no?
Please imagine that one of your four children is right now being targeted by a sexual predator in your congregation, but you don’t know it because nobody knows he is a sexual predator who has been accused of rape in several other congregations, but never reported to or investigated by the authorities. Would you be just fine with that?
If the JW’s were to change their policies on handling child abuse, and their other emotionally abusive policies, and be open and forthright with their membership instead of consistently covering up the truth, I’m sure right-minded people around the world would have a much easier time getting along with them, and exposes like this would not be necessary.
Best wishes on your spiritual career. I hope that the things I mentioned never happen to you.
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Winston Smith says:
December 6, 2015 at 12:05 pm
@Drew,
I think you just have had very limited experience with this organization and are drawing conclusions based on that limited perspective.
Do more research. A big eye opener for me was when I started reading the old publications (I was fortunate enough to have been given a complete set of Studies in the Scriptures and other similar publications from that period). Since, according to the Watchtower Society, God choose them in or around 1918 to be his faithful and discreet slave based what they were teaching at that time, wouldn’t it benefit us to become familiar with those teachings?
WS
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al etheredge says:
December 7, 2015 at 2:16 am
Hello Drew. I had the privilege of serving as a 14 year old baptized witness publisher during 1975. I might even have temporary pioneered during summer break from school. I don’t recall anything of note from the period indicating that fulfillment of prophecy was taking place despite my vigilance. Perhaps something pertinent occurred in your locale and the news didn’t get passed to the proper channels for dissemination. I do remember the reprehensible letter from Brooklyn two years later which accused ordinary witnesses of misinterpretation of the society’s teaching regarding the timing of Armageddon. I happily disassociated from the organization soon afterward and have never regretted my decision. I am glad you find fulfillment in the organization’s teachings, but don’t try to promote old witness failures as victories on this site. There are too many old witnesses here for those stories to fly.
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Markie says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:56 am
I do believe “new light” will come out and we will hear about the “Methuselah Generation”. So they will be good for another 800 years or so.
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dee says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:05 pm
Overlapping generations 2=1, 3 =1, 4=1…………..Methuselah generation LOL!
Just a few more generations need to overlap and the end will come RFLOL!
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dee says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:46 pm
***Overlapping generations teaching:
– Watchtower (Study Edition), April 15th, 2010 Issue, Pages 27-29
-JW Broadcasting – September 2015 video:http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODStudio/pub-jwb_201509_1_VIDEO
-JW Broadcasting November 2015 video:
Kenneth Flodin: ‘This Generation Will . . . Not Pass Away’ (Matt. 24:34):
http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbmw_201511_3_VIDEO
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minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:40 am
@ Dee,
It’s funny you mention the ‘generation – now, the over lapping generation’.
Allow me to share a real time experience, ‘the other day at McDonalds, elder E.Smalley, ask, hey we’ve missed you at the meeting’. Small talk about work and such, then the generation (OL) topic comes out. I then say, “this is bs – bs on over lapping generation’.
Elder Smalley said, I would like to come over and talk with you. I said, talk about what, as if. Theres nothing to talk about. Have to go to work, see ya.
JWSurvey = ” Unity in Freedom for Thruth ”
Peace out
Doc Obvious says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:40 am
For: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society
Since we reviewed the May 2015 JW Broadcast and the November 2015 “Why Reduce the Number of Special Full-Time Servants?” announcement, it is with great sadness that we have concluded that there needs to be a donation reduction in what Jehovah’s Witnesses give on a monthly basis. We prayed to Jehovah God for the blessing of this procedure and he gave us the go ahead. If you have issues with this procedure, you may want to talk to God. Be nice. He is not too pleased with your child abuse cases.
Therefore, as of January 1, 2016, the donations that people will give will be reduced 80%. Which means a United States dollar will be worth 20 cents. So if you gave $20.00 USD/month, you will now give $4.00 USD/month.
Here’s the formula:
[Amount in 2015/month] – ([Amount in 2015/month] X 0.80) = Amount in 2016/month.
Instructions for the uneducated Jehovah’s Witnesses (including Anthony Morris III):
First, we compute 80% of $20.00. So, put 20.00 in a calculator then press the multiply sign (X), 80% is .80, we enter .80 in the calculator, then hit enter. You should receive $16.00. Write $16.00 on a piece of paper. Next, put $20.00 in a calculator then press the minus sign (-), then enter the number on the paper. In this case $16.00, then enter. You should end up with $4.00. If Anthony is still confused. Then re-read this paragraph.
May Jehovah continue to bless us with this new Donation reduction arrangement.
Yours in Jehovah’s service,
Jehovah’s Witness members
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anonymous4 says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:49 am
You may as well try to teach a monkey to fly a 747. lol
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Doc Obvious says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:24 am
It may take a couple of iterations of that paragraph to sink in for the un-educated JWs.
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minion says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:03 pm
@ Doc,
Great trigonometry, however, my donation’s are at peak high – volumes at zero+Nada+negative+goose egg= $00.00
What would the KH servant do, with a donation from an apostate, accept or refuse the donation of $50.00 with a gift card? – from a loving apostate – your brother.
Accept or refuse donation?
JWSURVEY = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
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Doc Obvious says:
December 5, 2015 at 3:49 pm
Minion,
You’re right. $0.00 – ($0.00 X 0.80) = $0.00/month for 2016.
Congratulations you are smarter than most Jehovah’s Witnesses put together.
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John Baptist says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:56 am
The time left is reduced!! The ever non changing call goes out from the Governing Body. So correct me if I’m wrong. You have a 30 percent reduction or layoff in your operations. Does this mean like any business that your cutting back because of cutting costs due to slow sales?
When will people really get it that this religion is really no different then any other in that it is a business stealthed under a tax exemption privilege.
So my question to the Govering body is if the end is so near as you proclaim then really what are all the closures and cutbacks about?
There is only so long that a smoke screen of media propaganda on your part lasts. Sooner or later the smoke clears and the intelligent thinker can then see clearly the deceptive lies that are spewing out of your mouths.
Almost like the light getting brighter. Lol
Throw a label on the wall and let’s see how long it sticks, it mentality just doesn’t work for you folks anymore.
Most people go through their whole life deciphering what is Truth and Non Truth. But in our age of instant information it is a little easier to discern.
I hope in time they will vanish off this earth and it will be just a forgotten nightmare for many.
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RodrigoGuerreiro says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:42 am
It’s important to also say that this documentary hit the record of the most seen/popular documentary of 2015 (TVI confirmed this fact).
So you can imagine the repercussion on Portugal. In many places the opinion of the common public about the JWs switch from the “good Christian people with a very strange religion but harmless” to “some crazy cult with high control indoctrination”
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Jaak says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:33 am
Great to hear the documentary was so popular.
People will talk about it now escaping to it, the sead is planted…
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ScotWm says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:51 am
Hopefully, this documentary will be seen in Brazil, which has a Portuguese-speaking population of around 200 million.
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minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:49 am
@ Scot
Currently (1st place) JWSurvey web site is “attracting” the most viewers at 38.% from Brazil.
I get crazy emails from Brazil – enticing and the most “attractive” women from Brazil are available and looking for you.
Just saying,
JWSurvey – “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
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Mr Hoop says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:48 am
For those of us that were apart of that abhorrent system,saw the light and escaped,thank you so much for your reporting.The WTBTS is a worldwide virus that has affected millions of people, especially those who cannot protect themselves,children.
The internet and reports like yours has allowed many of us to connect,share experiences and heal from this deadly pandemic know as the Watchtower
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Startrekangel says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:00 am
“Need to hear both sides of the story…” said David Splane. That is funny. Last time I checked, the GB discouraged JWs from hearing any other stories but those made up by the GB
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markw1509 says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:58 am
Perfectly put, Startrekangel!
Whenever they are badly-done-by, JWs claim they weren’t allowed their side of the story. Anything they don’t agree with is ‘apostate lies’. How many more of these types of programmes can apostates produce?!
If everything against them in the media are produced by apostates, it looks like we are getting very sophisticated! lol.
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Waseldersdawter says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:50 pm
Let’s ask the children who were molested if apostates made it up, or if dear old brother Groper really did it! Bet the kids don’t think what happened to them was fictitious!
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Jaak says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:28 am
Well written, thank u for it.
This must awake a lot of believers, if I would still be in the congregation, and I would hear this news, I would start to investigate it.
Hope this will make many jw do research.
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bobby a says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:37 am
Thanks for the info,I am more awake than ever before.
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Pow says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:07 am
I have ALOT more to add to this story…..it’s gonna change everything. ….if you just listen. ..ok…here it goes. …NO Comment
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Deep Thinker says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:18 am
I think the truly sad thing is the Governing Body has drunk the Kool-Aid.
They actually believe what they say and preach. They are deluded and will remain deluded. This has nothing to do about making money since they all just live in an apartment (no mansions for them).
They will go down with the ship, and if for whatever reason God does exist and all the prophecies in the Bible are true they will find out that God views them as he does all the other Religions – as Babylon the Great.
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Chiafade says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:21 pm
I’ve been saying the same thing for a while now. These current gb members were indoctrinated traveling COs and DOs. They started partaking of the emblems which made them prime candidates for the gb. Then with nostrils wide open with pride they wanted to make changes to the org that reflected their “love” for the ministry. Unlike the previous gb who were mostly bethelites for eons and didn’t know squat about the real work.
That’s partially how I see them. One thing is for sure. These are some ARROGANT men with NO respect for their followers. It is so clear how little they think of the rank and file. Also, to feel that there is no need to make a defense or to even acknowledge a problem is despicable and disgusting. Then Splane implies that no one tried to contact them.
It’s mind blowing narcissism. These men are never wrong and will never apologize. That alone should push people far away.
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Deep Thinker says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:03 am
The few GB that I have met over the years were not arrogant and in fact were very nice people.
My observations in my few interactions with the ones I met has been that they are very humble and feel what they are doing is right.
They are misguided, that is the problem and cannot be fixed.
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Dodger says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:04 pm
In that case, you would think they would see their current tribulation as evidence that they have lost Jehovah’s favor and need to make some changes in their policies and procedures and thinking in order to regain it.
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ScotWm says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:45 am
Regarding: “About 30% of Bethelites will have to leave the Portuguese Bethel family and return to ‘serve’ in their former congregations.” The harsh reality is that these discarded Bethelites will only be able to continue their full time service to the Watchtower Governing Body if their former congregations have both the willingness and the ability to support them.
In a follow up to his original announcement of drastic Watchtower cutbacks in construction, magazine publishing and personnel, Samuel Herd hinted that these “adjustments” were not due to economic reasons. Herd goes on to emphasize that the Governing Body remains “confident that Jehovah is richly blessing the worldwide work.” However, Herd then throws out a few big numbers which indicate that supporting Special Pioneers and most construction projects is a financial drain that can no longer be sustained.
Herd goes on to say that the Kingdom work is expanding so rapidly that available funds must be diverted to projects which are most important. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out where the money is going: Multi-million dollar child abuse settlements and the palatial Warwick, NY world headquarters, which is being built on a toxic waste dump.
While Samuel Herd is not my favorite Governing Body member, he does have the ability to tell big lies with a completely straight face. The ability to do this is has become a necessity, particularly now that the future of the Watchtower is on the line.
Apparently, the Governing Body has chosen Samuel Herd to deliver the really bad news. Hopefully, we will be seeing a lot more of him. To his credit, Herd does not flash his expensive Rolex watch in this video:
http://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODStudio/pub-jwbrd_201511_4_VIDEO
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Doc Obvious says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:35 am
I totally agree with you, ScotWm.
The other item I noticed in that particular video is no mention of financial figures. I remember Samuel Herd stating, Can you image what it costs each year for Special Pioneers? I do not know about you, but I need not to imagine people being laid off. I need the financial figures. And the other financial figures that made them come to the conclusion of their financial situation. Watchtower will always hide all the facts. The truth is in the financial records. Not on hearsay.
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ScotWm says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:56 pm
Regarding Doc Obvious’ comment on the lack of transparency in Watchtower’s financial condition:
You’re right. Without any meaningful figures, we can only speculate on the cult’s financial status.
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Pow says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:55 am
By the way…a lesson we can learn from this, if your an active jw is if ever hauled before a judicial committee is, don’t talk, ask questions. ..don’t reveal anything, ,they are counting on you talking.
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Pow says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:59 am
Just for clarification, if the org, doesn’t want to answer questions, why should we.
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educated-idiot says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:23 am
I was surprised that the Witnesses who saw the program were shocked. They really and truly have no clue what is going on beneath the surface. Jehovah’s Witnesses are much like mushrooms, they are kept in the dark and are fed sh*t.
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Chiafade says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:27 pm
“Kept in the dark and fed s**tt” lol that’s great I’m stealing it.
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Meredith J says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:04 pm
My hubby used to say that about being a Ministerial Servant. He would always say with a mournful look after being told something, but only half of it by an elder “That’s all we are. We’re just mushrooms, kept in the dark.” Those mushrooms were mushrooming everywhere as all those secrets were being covered up.
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Simon Williams says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:51 am
Thank you Susannah. And especially so for the translating and subtitling of the documentary. It really brings home the international misery this cult brings onto people. Good to see so many willing to speak out and share their stories.
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Susannah says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:01 pm
Thanks! It is a powerful video. TJ Curioso and I went back and forth with the translation. It is not perfect, but now it will be seen by more people. We plan to translate the other video of Ana Leal outside Bethel.
It can be followed though, I think, when the whole story is known.
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minion says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:19 pm
Ms. Ann Leal,
Great commentary.
Watchtower Corporation has learn the technique from the Illuminati, ‘you hide the Thruth in plain site’, – well done WT Corporation.
Watchtower Corporation has the most fear today 2015, perhaps the largest ever lawsuit facing them, and the ones to come from free labor and contracted contractors – due to exposed health risk working at a toxic waste land – Warwick, NY.
Ms.Leal, keeps us posted, and we hope more friends wake up from JW indoctrination.
Jwsurvey – “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
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Da' says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:28 pm
This in no way is any disrespect to the peoples of Portugal, however, it has always been a prevailing thought among JW (especially those within a rocks throw of Brooklyn Bethel) that things are just different (organizational wise) the further you are from Bethel NY. Example – witnesses in California (reportedly some celebrities) just didn’t tow the line and that was just a okay , why ?, donations of course. So, now that JW (GB) have been exposed and thankfully so in Portugal , a few combative statements are thrown out and now your on your own. Kudo’s to this reporter for going back and putting JW again in the spotlight. Now the rank and file will be asking why ? But , as always there will be that ever popular letter to the congregation suggesting that all this attention (persecution) is expected in the “last days” .
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Da' says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:40 pm
@pow ive been saying this for years ! Keep your mouth shut ! A stubbed toe becomes a broken foot in a matter of minutes.
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Waseldersdawter says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:44 pm
I’m so outraged that Ms. Leal made the effort to get Witchtower’s side, yet they still outright lied that she didn’t! I shared this article on Facebook! All my friends who aren’t involved with the JW’s will see this and hopefully get the word out. There’s no way this organization has God’s backing when they imitate Satan.
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Ruthlee says:
December 4, 2015 at 12:57 pm
Awh! shucks folks, again, If it wasn’t for those pesky kids they would have gotten away with it! bwahahaha ruthless
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Charles R Turner says:
December 4, 2015 at 2:41 pm
All Witnesses should read Leah Remini’s book about her experience in Scientology. While she doesn’t mention the Witnesses, one cannot escape the parallels and similarities of the these two mind-control cults.
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rikos says:
December 4, 2015 at 4:51 pm
Two weeks before today i was driving from work and i heard from a local radio station the statistics about child molestation in europe for the year 2014.
18 millions children was molested from relatives and strangs.
i am wondering how many of this 18 million was from jehovah witnesses congregations?
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Meredith J says:
December 4, 2015 at 7:57 pm
This has been their tactic for years. Just don’t discuss it. Keep telling any curious congregation members that it is the work of the devil and the bad bad media and it will eventually go away. Ha ha ha. Watchtower, you did not realise that God would make available a system where everybody could share their personal recordings of tv programs and news broadcasts. It is called ‘Youtube’.
Your little trick worked for a good many years, making all those journalists look like liars if the dared to speak the truth, and silencing those who were whistleblowers, but now whose getting the last laugh? It’s not you that’s for sure. Your nakedness is beginning to show for all the world to see, one country at a time. And with each country goes another Youtube video to be watched by yet a bigger audience, till your empire is defeated. And it’s all Our Lord’s doing. “Get out of her my people….”
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Robert67 says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:38 pm
Hopefully more of this hits the main stream media, maybe as a joint story with the release of Spotlight. That film covers the machine that was in place to keep the rampant pedophilia in the Catholic Church a secret.
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anonymous4 says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:03 pm
Perhaps the Harlot of Revelation who is to be ‘devastated and made naked’ is actually the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society…
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TJ Curioso says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:33 pm
I would like to add to what was said before: this documentary was seen by over 2 million Portuguese on the day, the most viewed since 2015. He beat all records and even the journalist was surprised by the interest generated around its report (nothing I had not already told her that was to happen) .
So much so, that she was invited in the next week to a morning TV show to clarify details on the report and after the second piece journalistic caused by the misrepresentation of Splane, she was invited to an evening of TV program to talk more once on the report.
This was the first report seriously about Jehovah’s Witnesses, like what has happened in other countries.
If someone wants to give you congratulations for the part and/or encourage her to continue to investigate the matter, here is your email: amleal@tvi.pt
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JB Reezner says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:07 pm
Ana Leal is wonderful, TJ Curioso. I feel the same way I did when the Australian Royal Commission was happening. The members of the commission became like heroes to me, because they stood up against this cult that has hurt so many people and covered over so many wrongdoings. Now I feel the same way about Ana. Thank you for the email address. My gratitude has been sent.
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shannon says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Thank you for the email. I have sent my sincere thanks all the way from Alberta, Canada
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JB Reezner says:
December 4, 2015 at 8:40 pm
Obrigado, Susannah (e TJ Curioso)! Even though the GB members are themselves deluded, I wonder how much they are all starting to dread these occasions when they have to go explain to faithful brothers and sisters that, “although we’re firing/abandoning MANY of you, make no mistake, Jehovah is still richly blessing the Organization”. I’m picturing them drawing straws to decide who HAS to do it. Geoffrey Jackson gets the short straw and says, “No way, man. I had to do that Royal Commission thing. It’s Splane’s turn!”
Your article is excellent. I love Ana Leal’s tenacity. It’s so refreshing when we actually see CONSEQUENCES to the GB’s deception, as opposed to when the GB lies to the R&F and gets away with it. “No comment”? Fine. That’s still damning, and it’s there for the public to see. May the Org continue to crumble– the sooner the better.
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Meredith J says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:03 am
You had me going then JB Reezner about drawing the short straw. What I couldn’t get over is the blatant disregard for the media in such an embarrassing way. Letting the story die. They have no shame these GB members. They think that they are somehow walking around with a shield on where they are untouchable. They can say what they want with no accountability.
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JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 7:59 am
Exactly! Untouchable and INVISIBLE, Meredith J. It’s like they’re covering their own eyes and thinking no one else can see them. May the spotlight get so bright on the Org and GB that it finally melts their faces off (Ã la the Ark of the Covenant scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark).
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Winston Smith says:
December 7, 2015 at 12:26 pm
I have seen a number of comments that seem to draw conclusions about GB members state of mind. Some say humble, others arrogant, shameless, untouchable.
To try to distill the psyche of GB members down to a single element is nearly impossible. They are all different people for sure. They have also themselves been indoctrinated by this cult for a number of years. They each have their own cult personality and their own authentic personalities. Some may legitimately want to help the members of the congregations. But it plays at odds with their cult indoctrination, their own human failings, their sense of fear, and their desire for power. And as per the famous quote “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
To relate it to the congregation level, back when I was an elder, I saw the seemingly most humble, kind brothers become harsh, conniving, and intolerant under the certain circumstances. I can only imagine it happens all the more so on the GB level. Seems to be the effect this org has on people.
Keep in mind that seemingly normal, kind, humble people participated in the church inquisitions, the witch trials, and the holocaust.
WS
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JB Reezner says:
December 8, 2015 at 12:42 am
Winston, do you, or do you not, want to see the GB get their faces melted off, like in the Ark of the Covenant scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark? If the answer is “no”, then we, sir, are at an impasse!
Naw, I accept your point. In a setting such as this site, though, it seems more fair to forgive the occasional blanket statement by people who wasted half–or more–of their lives in a cult (sometimes enduring great suffering), than it does to expect them to be looking for the good in, or a deeper understanding of, the people who are personally responsible for unapologetically continuing to demand adherence to the dangerous and deadly doctrine/practices that have hurt them and so many others.
Even though each GB member had a unique journey to where they are, and even though they all likely vary a bit in their motivations and mindsets, their culpability remains. The egregious things the GB members are guilty of are infinitely more serious than the occasional, overly-broad statement made here regarding them.
On the other hand, blanket statements about the average, lowly JW publishers can go a bit too far. Sometimes, the things we say make us sound like we’ve forgotten that we were Witnesses ourselves. Even then, the blanket statements are less concerning to me when they seem to be a result of the commenter’s own pain. But when the comments are simply meant to mock JWs, it’s unfortunate. (–Pardon this digression.)
So, I understand your point, Winston. But, together, Meredith J and I called the GB deluded, deceptive and shameless, and implied that they are arrogant and oblivious. Even if some of them possess these qualities to a lesser degree than the others, it seems likely–judging by their actions–that they all do possess them to some extent. Although it might be mildly interesting to learn how each of them became the way they are, it’s not critically important in the grand scheme of things. That’s my opinion, anyway.
Thanks for the reply, Winston. Your comments are always very interesting, my friend.
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anonymous4 says:
December 4, 2015 at 9:31 pm
This may be a bit off-topic, but it’s been bugging me for a while, and I don’t know when I’ll get a chance to air it out. In the congregation I used to attend, many “sisters” dressed in sexually provocative ways, or to put it more bluntly, like WHORES. Amidst all the talk of modesty and “tight pants” etc., one would see tight, short skirts, revealing tops, the trendiest high-heeled shoes, even black lace stockings — and this includes a couple of the ELDERS’ WIVES!! It was very distracting, especially within a building which was supposed to be focused on “spirituality”. Has anyone else experienced this, or did I just happen to belong to a congregation full of frustrated nymphomaniacs? I mean here they are, pretending to be all Amish and the like, you know, “No part of the world”, and they’re WORSE than the “world”! I defy anyone to visit any church, mosque, synagogue or temple and find women dressed like that. They would be BOOTED OUT on their a**!! This religion (cult, actually) is a JOKE!
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Tara says:
December 5, 2015 at 8:03 am
Lol sorry but I had a good giggle at this. My cong. is pretty conservative but I think a lot of the sisters are closet nymphos’s. Some of the heels could be used to spike the most vicious of vampires… don’t get me wrong… I love my heels too…. that’s a point (no pun).. what do I do with all my shoes when I finally leave? Anyway, I know for a fact that during summer a lot like to go commando… :p Fishnets are often seen around fall/autumn. Hair colour goes across the whole spectrum with many having a blatant streak of colour added. Actually my hairdresser surprised me when she did my hair an awesome shade of purple :) Wonder how that will go down if I go tomorrow lol
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Roman Castañeda says:
December 4, 2015 at 10:02 pm
The Portuguese brothers and sisters seem all bored and disappointed they had to listen to a foreign speaker speak in a foreign language only to be translated on the spot into their language. Much like I felt and feel ever since they started sharing the video dramas at the assemblies rather than a live drama. Sunday assemblies were always the most anticipated days because we would get, to some extent, a live show. Then suddenly came the videos with horrible lip syncs which is too obvious to even focus on the message.
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JB Reezner says:
December 4, 2015 at 11:20 pm
Just a quick off-topic note. I apologize everyone, for a few uncharacteristically severe comments I’ve made lately. I love–and need–the peacefulness of this site, and I seem to have become hypersensitive to things that look like they may threaten it. A few particularly nasty troll plagues over the last month or so left me a little frayed, leading to a level of impatience that proved to be counterproductive to the very peace that I so appreciate.
I’ve washed my mouth out with soap, and will try not to lose my cool again.
Markie and Anonymous4, this video clip addresses the over-the-top level of harshness in my comments to you: https://youtu.be/fbMKjLe-RFA
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Markie says:
December 5, 2015 at 2:14 pm
Sorry if I said anything offensive. Just a side note, my mentioning that I am a tax attorney is really not meant to brag at all. I am just proud of myself and family for going to school and not listening to the GB or elders. Sorry if it comes across as bragging. I remember back in the 70s my dad had a young brother in the car who wanted to go to college and I remember him saying to go and do whatever he thought was best for himself. Me and my brothers, cousins all went to college. Only two didn’t and guess what, they are the only two that have drifted away.
So your in Florida?
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Markie says:
December 5, 2015 at 2:16 pm
Oh by the way, I have know idea who Anthony is. I have never posted under that name.
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JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 3:50 pm
I appreciate that, Markie.
Anthony was a persona who contributed to some unrest here. Just one of many over the last month or so. I didn’t make a connection between him and you, but it can be a tricky to figure out people’s motives for being here.
This is a welcoming place. Many of us here are on different ends of the spectrum on some important issues, but we try to use the extra-padded gloves when we express our varying opinions, in the interest of keeping things running smoothly. I haven’t always lived up to that. If sensitivity doesn’t come naturally, it can take some practice.
Yep, I’m in Florida. It was in the 60’s today and I almost froze, lol.
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Markie says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:13 pm
Actually I live on Florida too.
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Meredith J says:
December 8, 2015 at 2:07 am
Markie, so sorry if my words were a bit harsh last time we spoke. Sometimes a person needs a bit of time to get their head together when they wake up. Also a person who has left for a good while like myself can get hot under the collar when people start defending the Watchtower. I’ll try and be more understanding I promise. I felt I had to defend a friend of mine who was doing it tough. You did not know that of course. Anyway, I should try and exercise a bit more Christian patience. Been in short supply with me lately. Anyway, I’m glad I did not scare you off.
Rose Graziano says:
December 5, 2015 at 6:49 am
Wow! What a great video. It’s sad that many of the witnesses that saw this will write it off as apostate lies. What they fail to realize is that most of the men giving their experiences were once elders in the congregation. My husband was also an elder and “stepped down” because of all these horrendous policies on child abuse as well as many other hypocrisies in the congregation. We no longer go in the ministry because our conscience will not allow us to teach this rediculous idea of overlapping generations. We are mentally out of the organization now but still technically Jehovahs witnesses because our grown children and grandchildren will be forced to shun us if we formally dissasociate. It is no wonder that in the United States bible studies are non existent with all the information out there on the Internet. It’s just really sad that Jehovahs Witnesses are forced to dismiss it and not even look at it. Only when something effects them personally do they begin to question things. Very sad……
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Caroline says:
December 5, 2015 at 6:53 am
@Drew, You need to keep track of all your comments. First you imply like you aren’t a Witness, but studying with an elder and now you say you are an active Witness. Which is it?
You say you left at an early age and went off and made a life for yourself and had a great education and a great career and married out of the “truth” but now you are an active Witness and your wife is serving faithfully. That sounds pretty hypocritical if that is all the truth.
You didn’t listen to the Society when you were young and went to college and had a great career, so you didn’t have to wash windows in the winter time when it was twenty degrees below zero like I had to do in my cleaning jobs. I listened to the Watchtower and I didn’t go to college but you did.
It is so easy for you to sit back in your easy chair and praise the Society. I wonder if you would be praising the Society if you had stayed in the “truth” when you were young and didn’t go to college and didn’t get a good job and now be seventy years old with no retirement package and having to wash windows for the rest of your life like a lot of “faithful” Witnesses are having to do right now.
Your spelling and grammar are terrible for being so highly educated. Sometimes you capitalize the beginnings of the words at the beginning of sentences and then you don’t and sometimes for other proper nouns that should be capitalized, you might and you might not, so I know you can do it on whatever device you are using.
You can also put periods at the ends of your sentences if you want to so I know that you can do that if you want to. Sometimes you spell correctly and the next time, you don’t spell correctly, so I think you are from the U.S. because at times your spelling is too good to be from another country and if you are from the U.S., you should know how to spell and write sentences correctly, even for a grade school level, let alone, college educated, like you want us to think you are, so I think you are a Watchtower troll, maybe even being so naive’ as to count your time here, instead of going from door to door, like the rest in your congregation would be doing right now, instead of visiting an “apostate” website like this, which is off limits to an active JW, like yourself, that is if you are really telling the truth, which I don’t think you are.
The reason I know you are not telling the truth about anything you have been saying is that a real Witness is not free to tell the Elders in your congregation what web site you are visiting here and you would be counseled sternly if you actually did tell them what you are doing here. We all know how it works. We aren’t that stupid.
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JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 8:45 am
Very nice sleuthing, Caroline.
20 degrees BELOW zero? Yikes… You have my sympathy. It was 50 degrees here in Florida a few days ago and I didn’t think I would survive it, because cold=pain. Sorry for the digression. You just shocked my system with the mere mention of a temperature that low.
Drew, you’re in a cult that meets the Bible’s definition of a false prophet, with over 130 years of false predictions. Stay in it if you like, or even if you HAVE to because of personal circumstances, but don’t fool yourself into thinking you have the Truth or even something close enough to be pleasing to your God. Don’t spend years, or even decades, watching your confidence turn into regret like so many of us here have.
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Caroline says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:45 am
JB, you have to use a really good washing fluid for car windows. That’s what I did. It gets pretty cold in Wisconsin. I have heard how wimpy people are in Florida. In Wisconsin, people go in shorts in the winter time in the teens just because they think they are so tough.
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JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:26 am
Wha? Caroline attacked me, lol! And it’s especially heartless because I’m in an indefensible position due to the fact that… IT’S TRUE! I’m a total wimp. I’m not joking, my heater just cycled on for a few minutes because it’s set to 75. It’s 60 outside, and I can’t handle it.
But Caroline, who would you say is tougher, folks from Wisconsin, or folks from BC? (If my plan works, we’re about to see a catfight, folks.)
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Tara says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:40 pm
I sleep with my bedroom window open at -20! and BC isn’t classed as cold.
Caroline says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:45 pm
JB, So far this winter, it’s been pretty nice but two winters ago, it was below zero almost all winter and it went for months and months. I don’t know where it’s colder, in Wisconsin or BC but I am sick of winter already and it’s only the beginning of December.
If you ever watch football games for the Green Bay Packers, you will see people in the stands with no coats or even shirts on in the stands, even when the temps are in the teens but their blood is probably half alcohol too, who knows? I had a friend at the Kingdom Hall who spends her winters in Florida and she’d tell us that when it got to 60 degrees, it was too cold to go in service in Florida but here in Wisconsin, 60 is about the perfect temperature, not to hot and not too cold.
JB Reezner says:
December 6, 2015 at 8:16 am
Caroline and Tara, my plan failed dismally. That wasn’t much of a catfight, lol.
To be honest, I didn’t hate the weather yesterday. But you would still laugh because I was in a flannel shirt with a shirt underneath. You guys would be in shorts and tank tops.
It might be the fact that we spend at least half the summer getting our friggin’ skin melted off in the oppressive, humid heat here. Makes cold weather a bit of a shock? I don’t know.
I remember going out in service on Christmas morning once when it was in the 20’s. Almost…killed…me. We thought we were being thoughtful for having decided to be brief and not make people stand there in the cold for too long. It would have been more thoughtful to NOT BOTHER THEM ON CHRISTMAS AT ALL!
Hang in there, Caroline and Tara. May your Northern winter be mild.
Caroline says:
December 8, 2015 at 4:39 am
JB, it is so funny what we get used to. When we get temps in the zeros for weeks and it warms up to 20, we feel like it’s a heat wave and when it’s in the nineties for weeks and it cools down to 72, it feels cold.
The week-end I was baptized in 1966 in January, we were still going in service at Circuit assemblies and I went out with a group and the temperature was 20 below zero and the wind was blowing like crazy. We each took one door and went back to the assembly.
In those days, we didn’t know anything about taking into account the wind along with the cold. I remember that poor woman at my door, holding her door open for me and I had to take off my mittens to get out my Bible and showing her a scripture and my hands instantly hurting like crazy.
In those days, we didn’t take breaks either. We’d stay out all morning long and come home and I would put my feet on the heat vents all afternoon with my feet aching for days afterward. My book bag was so full of books and magazines that my back hurt and our sermons were three to five minutes long and the householders were so nice to let us go on and on, with their doors open in the wintertime, even and I remember going out on Christmas too but instead of meeting at 8:45, we’d meet at 10 and the same for New Years day.
Boy, the Society has sure had dumbed us down since then, hasn’t it? Or has it made it easier and dumber to attract more followers?
When Samuel Herd said that the reason for the magazines being printed every other month was because it is too hard to keep up with all the reading material, what does that say? Not only does it save the Society money for printing and paper, it says that Witnesses aren’t reading it anyway. I find the material so lazy and useless and boring and maybe others do too and that’s the biggest reason.
As long as they are producing “food”, that is all that is important for them to fulfill the “prophecy” about the slave feeding the proper food at the proper time. It doesn’t matter about the quality of the food.
It’s like working in a factory and pushing out food. If the quality of the food isn’t any good, people will stop buying it and the business will fail, that is, unless those eating that food have been convinced that the food will save their life if they keep eating it, no matter how bad it tastes.
JB Reezner says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Good grief, Caroline. You paint a miserable picture of wintertime witnessing in Wisconsin. But I believe you. All I can counter it with is the incredibly draining experience of going door to door in the middle of summer when it’s in the upper 90’s with 100% humidity. All of us would be walking around drenched with sweat, hoping householders would open their doors wide enough for us to get a little blast of AC, lol. But I concede that you definitely have me beat. You have my sympathy, my friend.
Your mention of “dumbing down” reminds me of that simplified version of one of the latest releases that they made. Before it’s all over, they’ll just start focusing the witness work on going straight to nursing homes and mental institutions in the hopes of preying on those who are especially vulnerable– with that being made necessary by the fact that any 9-year-old with an internet connection will be able to thoroughly debunk the falsehoods that had us snowed for so much of our lives. (Extra points to me for using the term “snowed” in this weather-themed comment thread.)
Crank up the electric blanket and have a good night, Caroline.
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:13 am
@ Caroline,
Damn, great minds think alike. I need to use my spell check more often.
@ JB,
I think he’s short on his quota of 0.15 minutes which he needs for November field service time – door to door, oops, I mean, internet to internet.
@ Drew,
Your fever with JW cultness is alive and well. As I mentioned before, we all went down this road and exited from the merry-go-round. And that’s Not a bad thing.
We all fought hard to defend the JW cultness, however, the problem Your having Is Not to defend the indoctrination, Your Problem is You can not explain or defend the the JW cultness of Man-Made beliefs, that are Not found in the gospels of Jesus Christ.
For example; have your elders share with You the ‘elders book’, and have them explain, why do they have so many chapters – a freaking book. Chapters about oral sex, what you can and can not do in Your Private bed.
Why they still use the 2 witness rule in the book of Moses (Deut.) To protect crimes against children, teenagers, and adults. Worse they Do Not report the hediuos crime to the police.
And the list of JW Man-Made beliefs are unfounded in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
These are the serious issues your having to grasp. Your having a problem in handling the Thruth.
However, we in this blog – understand this action. We did the same thing.
Do you not agree with Jesus Christ, when he said, “I give you a New Commandment, (this expression means everything else would be null and void – No other law before or after Him would matter) to Love one another.”
To Love as I have Loved you, you must Love one another.
In summary, to you really believe in all your heart this level of expectation of ‘Love’ of which Jesus Christ speaks of resanates in your congregation, or is it conditional.?
Understand, we get it – your better off with your live as one of JWs. We will not question your faith.
However, explain the JW Man-Made beliefs not founded in the gospel.
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
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Markie says:
December 5, 2015 at 2:55 pm
Kind of funny. If you weren’t a woman I would have that you were an elder or maybe an x-elder the way you can read Drews heart. Too bad sisters aren’t allowed to be elders you would have made a great one. I make a lot of spelling and grammar errors on my post and I do have an education. Sometimes it’s because I am typing on an iPhone or spell check corrects the words wrongly.
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JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:44 pm
I just wrote something peaceable to you and then dropped down and saw that you’d castigated one of the most respected visitors on this site? Come onnnn, man. You’re killing me.
Caroline simply listed ALL of the red flags she found, but the most important would be the inconsistencies in Drew’s comments.
Your next reply: Why not let Caroline defend herself?
My reply: Why didn’t you let Drew defend himself?
If you’re really here with good motives, then take some time to figure out why it matters so much if a visitor might just be a troll. Like many of us, Caroline has seen this site be blasted with troll garbage, and just doesn’t want to see it again.
Count to 10, and resist the urge to lambaste me. I’m not trying to antagonize you. Just try to see where I’m coming from.
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Markie says:
December 5, 2015 at 6:09 pm
Actually not trying to get in a ruckus with anyone. She was just long winded and accusatory. Basically calling him a liar, hypocrite, counting his time and so on. It just reminded me of some of our loving elders who seem to think they know what people are thinking and can say what ever they want with impunity. Sorry just didn’t like her post.
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Meredith J says:
December 8, 2015 at 2:20 am
Caroline, I believe we have a lot in common. My husband got conned into quitting his good post office job to go window cleaning in order to ‘pioneer’. What a joke. I helped him of course and I also helped him clean supermarket floors. That entailed every few months stripping and sealing them and carrying many full buckets of water up and down stairs destroyed my knees for good. I’ve been there too Caroline.
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anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:48 am
@ JB Reezner
No worries. No harm, no foul. We all blow our top sometimes. I probably did too. Sorry about that. Anyway, I’m sure we’ve both experienced worse. lol I’m glad you find peace and comfort through this site, and I wouldn’t want to do anything to screw that up. And I’m not the type to hold grudges, either. You seem like a civilized person.
Cheers
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JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:15 am
Cool, that was the reaction I was hoping for, Anonymous4. Thanks.
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anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:53 am
@ Tara
Purple hair?? APOSTATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tara says:
December 5, 2015 at 9:43 pm
Thank you :)
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anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:19 am
What’s with all the “shepherding” in the Borg? No other ‘religion’ does that. Does anyone see priests, rabbis, imams and gurus running to their constituents’ homes making “shepherding calls”, meddling in their private affairs, butting in to their business, sticking their fat noses into the lives of private citizens, forcing their unsolicited advice (and agenda) down peoples’ throats as their self-appointed “shepherds” and life coaches? Are they really there to “shepherd” (what a stupid term btw) or to keep all the peons in line? Back to Orwell’s 1984…Big Brother is Watching…Keeping track…He’ll come to your house if he needs to…Straight out of the KGB handbook. lol Reminds me of an old joke by the Russian comedian who defected to the U.S. in the days of the old U.S.S.R., Yakov Smirnoff. “In Soviet Union, we have 2 television channels. Channel 1 is State Propaganda Channel. Channel 2 is KGB Officer telling you to turn back to Channel 1.”
Conclusion: Is all this “shepherding” really necessary? Well, as I pointed out, you don’t see other ‘religions’ doing it, and their (billions of) folks seem to be getting along just fine with their lives. Yet another piece of evidence that Jehovah’s Witnesses is NOT a religion, but a CULT…
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Winston Smith says:
December 7, 2015 at 7:22 pm
Anonymous4,
There is shepherding and there is shepherding. What I mean is there were times when I recall a shepherding call meant visiting an elderly brother or sister and seeing if they needed anything from the store or help around the house. That was truly Christian in my opinion. But then there were times when the elders were there to check up on folks, get dirt, I even knew a few who would peek in the windows.
Point is it’s not necessarily all bad, but not all good either.
WS
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:57 am
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
Reply
Donna Bamlett says:
December 5, 2015 at 11:51 am
Well David Splane is as uncaring and unmoved by the happenings of the religion he supports, he is a business man. The way they treated my mother – they deliberately used her to gain access to her Will and they literally scratched the names of her family and her grandchildren. Then when they left her for dead while she was dying in the home of pneumonia they weren’t anywhere to be found, but when it came time they hid the WILL had lawyers that supported this plunder. As her family we tried to get them to release her body so we could bury her beside her daughter, they left her body rot in the funeral home. Eight months later her body was still in a bag. It was too much for me to continue fighting to get her a proper burial. To this day I have never seen one photo album or any of her personal belongings. They made her disappear. The curator of the funeral home was disgusted and said he’d never seen this in all his years working in the funeral home. These men have no where else to hide, the gig is up it’s only a matter of time.
Reply
Markie says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:22 pm
Sorry that happened. Sounds terrible but it doesn’t surprise me.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:04 pm
@ Deep Thinker
I respect your personal judgement, but I take exception to your conclusions regarding the GB members you have met. Your assertion is that they are humble, “nice” (an adjective often used to describe Jehovah’s Witnesses) men, who are simply deluded, misguided. But how much can you know about an individual through 1 or 2 interactions. Remember, people (particularly nefarious ones) ALWAYS put on a “false front”, always have a Big Smile for the ‘cameras’. No one could possibly know those, or any, individuals, without spending a substantial amount of time with them, working, playing, hobnobbing, rubbing shoulders, and/or conversing, etc. Besides that, look at what they DO. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. One has to see the Big Picture. Often it’s like a Jigsaw Puzzle. When all the pieces are in place, one sees the TRUE reality!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:13 pm
Clarification: I didn’t mean to say that ALL people always put on a false front. I was thinking of the nefarious ones.
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:56 pm
@ a4,
@ G.Jackson member of the govering body of Watchtower Corporation. Due to your limited education (only attended 8 grade of sckooling.)
The word used by a4, “nefarious” means;
Extremely wicked or villainous, iniquitous, a nefarious plot.
at JWSurvey we like to keep things user friendly to read for All Levels of comprehending. For sure Not a simplified version, as you put out, some even call it a ‘dumb down version’, of what I ask?
And remember JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
Reply
JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:05 pm
Minion, it’s “Truth”. But that’s okay, spelling can be thricky, lol.
Reply
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← The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
Royal Commission findings: Watchtower policies place JW children “at significant risk of sexual abuse” →
The Friday Column: Portuguese documentary overshadows Governing Body visit
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Posted on December 4, 2015
Portuguese journalist Ana Leal outside the branch office in Alcabideche
Portuguese journalist Ana Leal outside the branch office in Alcabideche
David Splane, of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, visited the branch office (Bethel) in Portugal at the beginning of November 2015.
The purpose of such a cyclical visit is usually to gather information and to check on whether the Branch is operating in compliance with Governing Body guidelines.
David Splane brought news of changes in the organizational structure. He confirmed the rumors of cuts in personnel at Bethel and the removal of special pioneers, both in Portugal and other Portuguese-speaking countries.
The numbers of those being “released” – sacked, or made redundant – as a result of downsizing is significant. About 30% of Bethelites will have to leave the Portuguese Bethel family and return to ‘serve’ in their former congregations. Similarly, many special pioneers scattered within Portugal and the Islands will be surplus to requirements. The Islands include Madeira, The Azores, Cape Verde and São Tomé e PrÃncipe.
It must be disheartening to lose a “lifetime career” having complied with the demand to put first the kingdom of God. No doubt many felt safe under the protective wing of the parent organization, recently re-branded as JW dot org.
David Splane made the announcements on Sunday, 1st November 2015 (via internet streaming from Bethel in Carnaxide), to almost 50,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses throughout the Portuguese territory and African countries where Portuguese is the official language.
Splane’s visit to Portugal and speech coincided with a major documentary entitled “In the Shadow of Sin” broadcast on the Portuguese Reporter TVI channel by the investigative journalist Ana Leal.
The documentary shown on the 18th October explored, for the first time on Portuguese TV, the impact of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ damaging child abuse policies, their response to domestic violence and other harmful practices.
The documentary prompted many watching Jehovah’s Witnesses who immediately felt betrayed to call Bethel asking questions. They were told the documentary was apostate lies.
Here is the documentary, now for the first time with English subtitles…
Early on in Splane’s speech, he mentioned reports that “speak evil” of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Clearly the purpose of this warning was to calm the fears of his audience who had been disturbed by the documentary shown at prime time on Portuguese TV.
In an attempt at deflecting attention away from the issues of child molestation and other abuses raised in the documentary, David Splane suggested that it is bad journalism to seek only one side of the story.
His comments appeared to be a direct reference to the TVI Reporter documentary and the main investigative journalist Ana Leal.
Splane said, “after all, there are always two sides to the story and a journalist who does not seek to check the facts, hearing only one side is not a professional. A journalist that operates in that way just wants to get a sensational story and, therefore, it will be a bad story, not a factual story.”
Of course, good journalistic practice and ethics demand that both sides of a story should be presented, so that the reader, watcher or curious lurker can draw their conclusions.
What David Splane omitted to tell the almost 50,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses who were listening in, is that the documentary was the responsibility of the well-known and award-winning journalist Ana Leal. He failed to inform his audience not only that the journalist sought the help of Jehovah’s Witnesses by contacting Bethel so that a counter view could be made to the gathered content. He also neglected to mention that she had made videos and transcripts available for comment before the broadcast, and also contacted various congregations inviting them to participate.
She was keen to share positive experiences of what it means to be a Jehovah’s Witness.
David Splane’s speech was disingenuous in attempting to raise doubts as to the credibility of the journalist. But his intentions were clear from his statement “… and so we usually leave things as they are, and let the story die.”
Bethel in Portugal did not provide any statements or offer any comment “contradicting or confirming,” the testimonies or stories within the documentary. All Jehovah’s Witnesses contacted refused to speak or take part.
This fact was made clear at the end of the documentary. TVI’s commentator, Judith de Sousa, stated:
“TVI tried to speak to the Jehovah’s Witness organization about all these charges, but they declined the invitation to take part.”
The journalist Ana Leal was not pleased at David Splane’s shabby attempt at undermining her journalistic integrity.
After listening to Splane’s speech, she had this to say:
“It is easy to see the impressive manipulation of Jehovah’s Witnesses at the hands of their leadership. Mr Splane blatantly tried to suggest that a report is partial and biased if both sides of the story are not shared.”
After listening to Splane’s speech and the comments directly related to her report, she returned to Bethel with a film crew ready to record a Watchtower rebuttal. She was determined to put on record that it was Bethel that had refused to give an interview. Ana Leal filmed outside Bethel and asked again for a response. She was invited into Bethel and waited 30 minutes in a room for the Watchtower to comment. Eventually, Branch Office Committee head, Pedro Candeias, appeared and said: “We have nothing else to add.” (see video below)
The journalist Ana Leal and the documentary team now fully comprehend why the leadership tried to undermine her credibility. The Governing Body’s tactic is clear: they want the documentary to “die.”
But this strategy, on this occasion, has been publicly called out on Portuguese TV.
Now with English subtitles, this documentary with testimonies and survivor stories can be shared more widely. The Governing Body will have to think up a new tactic to silence abuse survivors and journalists who are willing to document Watchtower’s policy failures.
susannah-signature
Documentary Translation by Susanna, and subtitles by Carlos Fernandes (TJ Curioso)
For more information on this and other stories in Portuguese, please visit extj.net
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← The trouble with apostates (and why it shouldn’t put you off being one)
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180 Responses to The Friday Column: Portuguese documentary overshadows Governing Body visit
← Older Comments
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:36 pm
@ Drew
Come on, man. Something takes place on EVERY date in history!
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:43 pm
@ a4,
@Drew,
Damn man, . . . ok,
here’s the deal. Another task for you:
You believe or repeat Watchtower Corporation statements.
re: after 1914 things are worse.
Correct answer, this depends where you live. Would you not agree.?
Research American history;
1.) The first time ever a foul – bad word used on a national movie, ‘Gone with the wind’, movie release Jan.17, 1940.
2.) American classic movies from 1900 to 1970s, have men in suits, Stacey Adams shoes, hats, long sleeves and ties, and No saggying pants – this trend started 2010.
And the Beautiful Ladies, all were nice dresses covered from head to toe. Very nice indeed!
3.) Schools from 1900 to 2000, teachers gave a damn, Clark Gables favorite word in the movie, gone with the wind, ‘Who gives a damn’. Right?
4.). TV networks before the 10:00 pm news, would announce, ‘its 10:00 pm, do you know we’re your children are’? This announcement was from 1950 to 1970s.
5.) Heres a hot topic – Civil Rights Act of 1964.
6.) My favorite hot topic – Equal Pay Act of 1963.
7.) Watchtower Corporation looks away from this hot topic – 2000, 42 US Code – Prohibition against discrimination or segregation in places of public accommodation.
This sounds lmore of a kingdom Hall.
8.) No wars on America territory not since the 1800s.
9.) MTV gain “International status” when they aired ‘Thriller’ by Brother Michael Jackson, no relation to G.Jackson (GB)
Release date November 30, 1982.
10.). MTV imposed ‘what time this could be aired’ Why, you ask? Because TV viewing still had standards to live by. Triller was release on November 30, 1982.
11.) And for the record, please read Matt.28:18, this authority Jesus speaks about, is the same as a President, Commander in Chief, at the Royal Palace. The Kingship or Kingdom power and sovereignty.
The year was 33ce. Forty days after Jesus was ressurected.
I’m sure others can add more to the list.
But, you should understand our perspective.
1914 really has no meaning what’s so ‘Ever’.
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Thruth”
Peace out,
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 2:24 pm
@ Drew,
My comment on #8, no attacks on USA territory. USA school bombings, Sept. 9, 2001, NY attacks on twin towers, Oklahoma bombing. These attacks fall under ‘classified’ – don’t ask don’t tell.
These attacks don’t count.
We love our US government. Really. We do!
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Truth”
Peace out,
Reply
Garrett says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:39 pm
Thanks for your hard work on this Sussanah! So glad to have you on board.
G
Reply
JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:40 pm
I did a job for a man a few days ago, and it came up in conversation that he was holding off on getting married again. Before I could even ask why, he went off on a rant about how his last wife left him because he wouldn’t become a Jehovah’s Witness, and that her JW mother hated him. The whole experience had really damaged him– emotionally, financially, etc. I was too embarrassed to tell him that I had been one for decades. All I could say was (sincerely), “Well, that doesn’t sound very Christian”. He looked at me and emphatically said, “No, they’re not Christians. They’re not Christian at all.”
It made me think of the time when I told a non-Witness acquaintance that I was getting baptized. He was happy for me, until I told him it was as a JW. He said, “I wish you would’ve told me ANYTHING but that”.
All the times that non-witnesses judged my religion adversely, I felt sorry for THEM. It’s such a strange feeling to know that they all knew something I didn’t. Sure, many of them likely had flaws in their own belief systems, but the serious problems with the Org are frequently OBVIOUS to outsiders. I wish they would’ve been obvious to me.
I’m encouraged to know that things are happening more publicly now, like the ARC, and like this In the Shadow of Sin documentary (and brilliant follow-up piece). One day, the flaws with this cult will be obvious to almost everyone. Thank you, to everybody working to make that happen.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:52 pm
WHY didn’t we LISTEN??? LOL
P.S. No regrets…The past is DEAD.
Reply
Grace says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:42 pm
JB,
I had surprising reactions from my non-jw friends & family when I opened up to them once I left. All this time, they were just being polite & not saying anything to me when I would go on about my faith to them. When I announced that I don’t practice the religion anymore they were really supportive & started to to tell me how they really felt about it but still in the nicest possible way.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
December 5, 2015 at 2:29 pm
I remember back when you mentioned your desire to reconnect with them, Grace. I’m so glad that’s been your experience. It’s great news, and very revealing.
It’s just further proof that–dare I say–MORE than .1% of human beings on Earth are good people? Believing that 99.9% of humanity deserved to be showered with fireballs was a bummer. Knowledge is a wonderful thing, albeit a little embarrassing sometimes.
Reply
tiger123 says:
December 5, 2015 at 5:29 pm
@JB
Good observation, I totally agree.
Reply
Meredith J says:
December 8, 2015 at 1:46 am
So nice for you Grace.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 12:48 pm
@ minion
Re: Your hypothetical “gift card” scenario.
Answer: The KH servant would accept the $50, then SAY he DIDN’T. This behavior would also further qualify him to be promoted to ELDER.
P.S. I think you mean “Unity in Freedom for Truth” — U threw an extra “h” in there Bud.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:25 pm
…unless “Thruth” is a contraction of “The Truth”?
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:57 pm
@a4,
Right on,
It’s the beer writing, need to slow down, damn Lloyd and his spell check.
OK, here it goes,
JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Truth”
How’s that?
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 2:37 pm
Naw, I liked it better the other way. ha ha ha
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:21 pm
The GB talk about an overlapping generation. But no one talks about the overlapping BOREDOM one is subjected to in JW meetings, by the constant (seemingly ENDLESS) droning of uneducated mimbos (male Bimbos). Once again, I’m glad I’m OUT!
Reply
Grace says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:34 pm
What an excellent article, Susannah.
Isn’t funny how the same problems are being felt around the world & the same silencing coming from the leaders of the WT. They truly do treat their members like idiots. The more that they try to act like spiritual leaders, the more they out themselves as cult leaders.
I don’t know if anyone saw my link a few articles ago to the latest Brad Zook video called Jim Jones & Jehovah’s Witnesses or something like that but I thought that it was a powerful piece. I showed it to my hubby & he was speechless & said that it is the best one that he has watched. Anyway, I instantly thought of that video when Splane criticised (I should say insulted) the journalist. What a stupid man to do that, he is just asking for more questions to be answered by journalists.
Reply
Grace says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:35 pm
I have to say that it is so good to see other writers contributing here. I really like the way this site is evolving.
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
December 5, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Somebody somewhere know where the Society is heading:
*** w01 8/1 p. 3 Your Right to Believe ***
Some beliefs are not only different but also dangerous. Early in the 20th century, for example, some people came to believe that Jews and Freemasons had plans to “disrupt Christian civilization and erect a world state under their joint rule.” One source of this belief was an anti-Semitic tract entitled Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. The tract alleged that the plans included advocating excessive taxation, promoting armament production, encouraging giant monopolies so that ‘Gentile wealth could be destroyed in one blow.’ Allegations also included manipulating the education system so as to ‘turn Gentiles into unthinking beasts,’ and even constructing underground railways to join capital cities so that the Jewish elders could ‘quell any opposers by blowing them sky-high.’
Hhhhh!! Are Jehovah’s Witnesses saying: “Some beliefs are not only different but also dangerous”! I am afraid they are not? ( http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=w01+8%2F1+p.+3 )!!!!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 2:20 pm
When I was in, I noticed that in addition to mental / emotional ailments among Witnesses, there seemed to be an increase in PHYSICAL issues. I have no way of comparing the number of incidences to the general population, and I don’t want to appear insensitive, but my point is — as most are aware, it has been scientifically and medically proven that the mind and body are “connected”, and especially that mental and / or emotional STRESS is a contributing factor in many PHYSICAL ailments, if not a direct cause. In the ex-Witness community (& perhaps even WITHIN) illnesses such as depression and fibromyalgia are becoming known as “Witness Diseases”. Yet another drawback to being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. There comes a time in everyone’s life when one must ask oneself the question, “What do I REALLY believe?”
Reply
minion says:
December 5, 2015 at 2:49 pm
@ G.Jackson (GB) limited education – 8th grade level.
The word used by a4 – ‘Fibromyalgia’, this means:
Syndrome affects the muscle and soft tissue. Symptoms include chronic muscle pain, fatigue, sleep problems, and painful tender points or trigger points.
Imagine that, I have these ailments.
G.Jackson, here at JWSurvey is user friendly and for all levels of comphrension. Not a simplied version as you put out at Sunday worship. Some of your friends have even called it, a dumb down version. Imagine that!
Please remember, JWSurvey = “Unity in Freedom for Truth”
Peace out,
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 3:20 pm
A man is strolling down a beach when he notices a bottle washed up on shore. He picks it up and starts rubbing it, and (of course) a 10,000 year-old Genie pops out. The Genie says, “For releasing me, I shall grant you 1 wish.” The man says, “Well, I’ve always wanted to visit Hawaii, but I’m afraid to fly. Could you extend the Golden Gate Bridge to Hawaii so I can drive there?” The Genie says, “Are you kidding? Do you know how much of my power it would take to build a bridge halfway across the Pacific Ocean? Can you come up with something else?” The man considers for a minute, then says, “Well, I’ve always wondered which religion teaches the Truth.” The Genie replies, “About that bridge, 2 lanes or 4?”
Reply
tiger123 says:
December 5, 2015 at 5:31 pm
lol
Reply
Hadriel says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:10 pm
It’s interesting that Pope Francis said that he felt he had to offer a personal apology. He recently said:
“I would like to ask for forgiveness in the name of the church for the scandals that have happened”. “I am profoundly sorry”.
Conversely the Governing Body has shown no such humility. Although neither can repair the damage done you would think an organization that condemns the Catholic church at every turn would show humility the same or better than it itself. Instead as indicated in this story, the plan is to ignore or not address the issue.
Likely the thought is that any acknowledgment would indicate that the organization/Governing Body are fallible. This fear of losing control is so great that it out weighs common decency in the form of compassion of those victimized. A simple sorry motivated by humility, along with acceptance of culpability, could at least help those effected have some measure relief albeit never a replacement for the damage done to them.
Reply
Holy Connoli says:
December 6, 2015 at 4:28 pm
@Hadriel. Is it any wonder they have not offered a sincere apology? They have never domne that with regard to all their fals prophesying either and encouraging people to quit their jobs and Pioneer before 1975 or not going to college and getting an education etc or for DF spouses who may had forbidden “BEDROOM SEX” with their mate! Their are so MANY examples of them being wrong and never admitting it. There is No reason to expect they will now or ever. At least Harold Camping and the World Wide Church of God admitted their error on prophesying and apologized publicly for it and admitted they were wrong. THE WT never will.
Reply
MDM says:
December 5, 2015 at 4:12 pm
I am in a country that blocks youtube so I cannot watch most of the videos posted here. I have tried VPNs but the government here is obsessed with blocking all Google products. Is it possible for someone to upload “In the Shadow of Sin” to youku.com?
Reply
Susannah says:
December 6, 2015 at 1:05 pm
Hi MDM, TJ Curioso has tried to register on the site you suggested without any success. He is willing to let you have access to the video. Do you have any other ideas how this could be shared?
Reply
MDM says:
December 6, 2015 at 3:04 pm
Hello Susannah,
Thank you for your reply and attempting to use another site not blocked in China. I have come up with a more circuitous method of watching the video. I may look for a more permanent fix if needed.
Thank you again for taking time to assist me.
Reply
MDM says:
December 6, 2015 at 3:17 pm
FYI, After trying 20 sites I found one in English and is not blocked in China. So far, I am able to watch videos on Vimeo.
Might be worth a shot in the future.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 6:29 pm
To any current JW’s checking out this site, first of all, GOOD FOR YOU!! Secondly, if any of you are still planning a lifetime of blissful “full-time service”, I would ask myself, How has that worked out for all the Bethelites being canned? Are they all getting a “Golden Parachute”? Not bloody likely! No doubt you have also come across some comments by older apostates who pursued such “service” and are now living hand-to-mouth, with no retirement package or formal education. Is that the future you seek? A wise person learns, not only from his or her own experience, but the experience of others as well. What’s that you say? “But the End really is near this time”? Sure, provided there is not ANOTHER “overlapping” generation. I mean, if there could be 2, couldn’t there be 3, or 4, or 5000 “overlapping” gen’s? What if some other “twist” comes along. I mean, “New Light” is always shining forth, isn’t it? Who can say?
One of the keys to detaching from the Borg is to slowly build contacts on the Outside, so you won’t be left high and dry when you decide to make your break. Yes, there is a world out there, with real people, not all good, but not all bad. Strategize. Plan. Educate yourself. Remember, your fellow JW’s will show you no sympathy, so don’t give them any. Jehovah’s Witnesses are trained to play on “the better angels of our nature”, soft emotions like sympathy, pity, self-doubt, guilt, sentiment, even love. Buck up and refuse to be manipulated! Someone once said “When life becomes a battlefield, your mind is your best weapon.” (Well, either that or an Apache attack helicopter) 😉 BTW, I believe it was L. Ron Hubbard (founder of Scientology) who said that. FYI I am not a Scientologist, nor am I advocating Scientology (or any other religion, for that matter). I just think that’s a really neat “proverb”. So, what’s YOUR state of mind? Is your mind like a revolving door, with no control over what comes in or goes out? Or is it like a fortress? Like I said, JW’s know where to attack — the weak points. So remember the Boy Scout motto: BE PREPARED.
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Chiafade says:
December 5, 2015 at 7:58 pm
This is great advice especially considering the fact that the JW leadership have mastered redirecting anything negative onto the person. Our softer nature will tell us that perhaps we ARE being too negative and maybe we SHOULD do more personal study.
When I became critical of the organization the attention immediately was focused on what I was doing or not doing. “Have you been visiting apostate websites?” “Do you see how negative information can affect you?”. All of these questions are designed to guilt trip a witness into thinking that something is wrong with THEM. The focus is taken away from the org and conveniently they don’t have to answer any hard questions.
After years of indoctrination we were trained to accept it all. Otherwise we wouldn’t be ” sheeplike”. A true Christian wouldn’t want to exercise his independent thought right? Utter BS! Your mind is a gift unique to you. Use it to better your life and that of your family. Not to the benefit of a parasitic organization.
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Tara says:
December 6, 2015 at 8:39 am
Making friends ‘in the world’ is hard to do after being cocooned for so long. I was talking to a client and broke down because of this. He hugged me and told me he and his wife were my friends and would be there for me. Another client is offering to ‘hang out’ for coffee, wine etc and to take me to a carol concert etc etc. What I am saying is you have to let people know. They don’t realise half the time just how captive it is being a JW. I have watched a few jaws hit the ground as I have told them what we go through. I’ve not said they are bad people just controlled.
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Holy Connoli says:
December 6, 2015 at 4:23 pm
@tara
Hi Tara. I know hoiw difficult it is to make new friends after being in the BORG for so long. One thing you will likely find out is there are SO MANY nice and good people who are not JW’s and their friendship is not conditional on you believing an ever changing doctrine and loyalty to 7 men in Brooklyn. When I expl;ained some of the things a typical JW had to endure they could not believe it. Shunning your own family, no celebration’s, no sports, no beards, no blood transfusions, ( except the JW Now take “BLOOD fractions” but won’t give Blood fractions”? ) I have made many NON JW friends and they are good honest people and in many ways better than a Conditional JW friend who will drop you in a NYC minute if you decide to not Believe the nonsense they teach. It takes Time tara even if you are older there are choices you can make and places to meet new people and create friendships. It takes time but you can doo it. I know BC I have done it. JW’s are VERY CONDITIONAL. Some JW’s would want to be your friend if you left but the BORG will not allow them to be.
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Meredith J says:
December 8, 2015 at 2:49 am
Tara, go to the carol concert. I would like to go to one this year. The traditional Christmas carols are beautiful. I used to sing them before I was a Witness. They are extremely accurate with the Bible’s description of the events surrounding the birth of Christ. They are not to be feared as we were trained to by the Watchtower.
Remember how we told our children that the star was created by Satan. I never believed that statment. I didn’t like my children being told that because I always thought that assumption was inaccurate and totally misleads one from benefiting from the birth of Jesus. Well, they are my thoughts anyway.
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Baby says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:48 am
A star its more great than the earth, how could a star been in the top of human hause?
why such star bein seen by only 3 men?
all stars has been created by Jehovah not by satan. JW has never say that the stars was created by satan. This was your own opinion. In this case, Every thinking personne can see that that particular”star” was not a real star. it was an element sparking or shining using by the devil to delude that tree men.
Meredith J says:
December 9, 2015 at 12:45 am
@Baby Baby Baby, something tells me you are a troll that many speak of. What on earth are you doing on this site. You could be disfellowshipped for such things. Why you have come here, I have no idea but really if you come to make trouble for those on here then you have come to the wrong place.
Those who are on here are recovering from the peverse treatment at the hands of the Watchtower policy makers. So unless you have something to add, in line with the purpose of this website, please refrain from any further comments. We do not appreciate the Scroogelike attitude that permeates from this cult.
anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 8:29 pm
If the GB, overseers, and elders saw Jesus charging down out of heaven, they would run away like little sissies.
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Baby says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:53 am
Instead they expect that with much joy because they know what the future hold!!!
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:31 am
I seriously doubt they know what the future holds Baby.
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anonymous4 says:
December 5, 2015 at 8:38 pm
Dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago. Apostate lie!!
Human civilization is older than 6000 years. Apostate lie!!
J.F. Rutherford was an alcoholic bully. Apostate lie!!
E=MC2. Apostate lie!!
2+2=4. Apostate lie!!
The sky is blue. Apostate lie!!
LMAO. Apostate lie!!
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Baby says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:31 am
the Apostate are always lying. Even when he is telling the truth for a moment, the purpose is to turn those who are inside the truth by subtle form
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:33 am
Seems like you have it all figured out!
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
December 5, 2015 at 10:50 pm
More apostate lies!
*** w50 3/15 pp. 95-96 Letters ***
Letters
ABSENCE OF PRAYER AT PUBLIC MEETINGS!
November 17, 1949
Dear Brother:
Answering your query of the 9th instant regarding the absence of prayer in opening and closing our public meetings:
It is certain that the public does not come to our public lectures in our Kingdom Hall or elsewhere to hear us pray, but do come to hear the advertised subject spoken upon by the speaker announced as competent to handle it. Our Exemplar Jesus held many public lectures, but there is no record that he opened or closed any of them with prayer. There is no Bible record that he opened up the sermon on the mount with prayer, or those open-air lectures after which he fed the multitude, first the 5,000 and then the 4,000. But there is a record that when he thus fed the multitudes he did offer prayer of thanksgiving to God before breaking the bread and fish and distributing the pieces to the hungry crowds. And these lectures, mind you, were public gatherings of practically all Jews who already believed in Jehovah God. But in our case today we advertise our public lectures as open to all peoples, whether nominally Catholic, Protestant, Jew, skeptic, atheist, or of the many pagan religions. Surely those of the public who are not of the Christian faith do not turn out to our meetings in order to join with us in prayer to our God, but solely to hear the speech which is the drawing feature. So we give them that and do not think to impose upon them by attaching something else to the lecture which might offend or stumble them before they hear the speech they came for. The apostle Paul, at 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, says Christians should offer prayer at their own meetings in a language to be understood in order that the hearers might be able to say Amen! at its close. But we should not expect any non-Christian public to join in any prayer if offered at a public meeting and then say Amen! with us at the close. Our brethren are offering public lectures in many pagan lands, and if it would be imposing upon the pagan public to offer our prayers before we let them hear our public message, then the same rule ought to apply even in Christendom. Because the message is for the public to tune in on, prayer is likewise not offered over the Society’s radio station WBBR. But this does not mean prayer is never offered in behalf of all such public meetings. It is, privately, by those promoting and supporting the public lecture campaign. That suffices.
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Simon Kestral says:
December 6, 2015 at 8:07 am
@Chiafade
Yes they presume something is wrong with YOU. That’s the idea of the return to Jehovah brochure.
When I left WT, I retained Christian belief. To me, jumping to atheism would be like scrapping my car because the thermostat is overheating. I replace what’s broken and keep the working parts.
I believe the world as we know it will end, but I keep in mind Jesus words: we cannot know the day or hour, in advance. Soon maybe, but not knowing when, we must plan for retirement in this old world. Don’t be caught without enough oil in your lamp, as the parable says.
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Baby says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:06 am
“I believe the world as we know it will end, but I keep in mind Jesus words: we cannot know the day or hour, in advance.”
VERY GOOD
In his first letter to the congregation in Thessalonica, Paul called attention to the coming of “Jehovah’s day.” He did not want his brothers to be in darkness and unprepared. Instead, he urged them as “sons of light” to ‘stay awake and keep their senses.’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-6.) Today, we await the destruction of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion. This will mark the beginning of the great day of Jehovah. Thankfully, we have an increased understanding of the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. Also, through the congregation, we regularly receive timely reminders that help us to keep our senses. Taking note of these repeated warnings can strengthen our resolve to render to God ‘sacred service with our power of reason.’ Rom. 12:1.
Shortly after sending his first letter to the Thessalonian Christians, Paul sent them a second letter. In this he called attention to the coming tribulation when the Lord Jesus will carry out divine judgment on “those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news.” (2 Thess. 1:6-8) What is now chapter 2 of this letter reveals that some in that congregation had become “excited” about Jehovah’s day to the point that they believed that its arrival was then imminent. (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2.) Those early Christians had only a limited understanding of the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose, even as Paul later acknowledged regarding prophecy: “We have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.” (1 Cor. 13:9, 10) But the inspired warnings penned by Paul, the apostle Peter, and other faithful anointed brothers of that time could equip them to maintain their faith.
when i look i see thah,
It is not possible to maintain your faith being outside the congrégation.
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Simon Kestral says:
December 8, 2015 at 11:39 pm
WT is not the congregation of God. WT is a pretender, falsely claiming the title of “faithful and discreet slave” for itself.
Only the master can make that judgment. Any slave claiming it before Jesus has spoken, is running ahead.
Thus WT has no authority; WT is not “the truth.”
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Bandit says:
December 6, 2015 at 8:35 am
Here’s my plan:
1). Buy a car and find another hall
2). After I change, I will not go to another meeting
3). Hopefully getting my career together I will enjoy my life, not following some false idea by a group of men who care about nothing.
These 3rd and 4th world countries need real peace, not some false fantasy lie about a paradise from people who don’t even truly understand the boble but just give the same hand-me-down ideas to other people. First it was apostates, now the reporters lol, who knows what’s next. Get out while you can and enjoy your life. Don’t die with the idea you will be resurrected, no one knows what will happen.
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Publisher says:
December 6, 2015 at 9:42 am
hi , im active jw and i wanna leave , they did many good things for me , i know is not truth but idk is good idea to leave because of all good things they did for me , i need your help :(
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Caroline says:
December 6, 2015 at 11:53 am
Hi Publisher. That is what we all would like to know is how to leave without being shunned. Being in the position of knowing it’s not the “truth” after all and trying to get out without being shunned has to be the hardest thing in the world to do.
I stopped going to meetings about a year and half ago and am being shunned by mnost all the people I thought were my friends for fifty years.
If you can move away, that is the best solution. What I saw was a lot of people did, was to fake being too sick to go to meetings and service but then you will always have those who are going to “encourage” you until you make a stand one way or the other and if you fake being too sick to go to meetings, then you are a prisoner in your own home.
I wished there was a good way to get out, but I can’t think of any.
One guy that I know of, got himself drowned by a kayak in the Pacific ocean. At least, that is the way the news said but they never did find his body. My theory is that he “disappeared” himself permanently and took up a new identity some place else where nobody would know him. That “accident” happened right after his father came to visit him and he was living in Hawaii.
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Tara says:
December 6, 2015 at 12:38 pm
Hey Publisher. Many of us on here are in the same boat. Remember most of the witnesses are nice people. Many have done very nice things for me too but I know that one false step and the ‘nice’ will not be so nice anymore. My daughter was df’d but I was also shunned because of circumstances… I went to her wedding to a non witness to whom she got pregnant. Only a handful of them talk to me now. I’m afraid the friendship is conditional. I am slowly fading. I was involved in a accident a few months ago so use the chronic pain I am in as a reason not to be at meetings. I haven’t been in service or put in a report for months…. Just remember, no one should feel beholden to anyone or feel under pressure to conform if they feel uncomfortable. A true Christian should be nice without excepting stuff back in return.
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Garrett says:
December 6, 2015 at 6:13 pm
Run Forest! Run!
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Baby says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:20 am
Hi publisher I dont know your real difficulties so that i may help you trought this site or outide, but maintain the small faith, continu reading the scriptures a maditade on it, call jehovah for aid. An aposta “once said that there is no life outside the organization” stop asking to the apostate remember this Bible verses (Proverbs 13:20; 1 Corinthians 15:33)
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Baby says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:22 am
You can receive help trought the elders of your congragation.
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:55 am
LOL Good one!
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Tara says:
December 6, 2015 at 9:46 am
Not sure how many of you use fb but I have a little rant…. I post pictures as we all do and I have found that of all my ‘friends’ it is the non witness friends that comment and encourage and ‘like’ etc. Most of these are from across the pond where I used to live. Those ‘so called’ friends who are JW’s never comment, encourage etc. I find this sad, because it really shows how wrapped up in themselves they really are. For example, the flooding in the UK, the horrors around the world.. non witness’ comment and grieve and show empathy…. not so my JW ‘friends’. They post pictures of food and handing out mags etc. They live in their own little insular world and seem disconnected to the plight of millions of people. Of course this shouldn’t surprise me… what do they have to do with worldly people who are going to die anyway… I’m not angry. Just sad.
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Clay says:
December 6, 2015 at 1:15 pm
Here’s what gets me D Splain says the things in the video are lies, yet G Goffery admitted to the Royle Commission they had a sex abuse problem. So you Goffery telling the court one thing while Splain telling the jw something different makes me so upset.
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RetiredLE says:
December 6, 2015 at 2:09 pm
“You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police … yet in their hearts there is unspoken fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts: words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home — all the more powerful because forbidden — terrify them. A little mouse of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic.”
― Winston S. Churchill, Blood, Sweat and Tears
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minion says:
December 6, 2015 at 3:56 pm
Susannah, (a must read to active JWs)
remember the movie – Avatar? What is Jake doing with his eyes – beginning and at the end of the movie? The camera has a close up of his face, why? He’s opening up his Eyes and awaken.
Active JWs its time to open up your Eyes and awaken!
Great documentary.
I have concluded with my colleagues, Watchtower Corporation is down sizing as quickly as possible, selling real estate (assembly Halls, KH, fleet trucks and cars) as quickly as possible, crabbing the surplus funds from Kingdom Halls, reducing the obligations to special pioneers, bethelites, district overseers.
Stop all new construction, with the exception at Warwick, NY (the 250 acres has been identified as a toxic waste land).
WT Corp is expecting major law$uit$ from hired contractors, volunteers, and bethelites. Due to health risk exposurer.
WT also recognizes the internet is not a place for the unskilled, and to have a facade and have it shredded. This is not a battle they can win. (or you mikey & kimmie).
JWSurvey. = “Unity in Freedom for Truth”
Peace out,
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enuffsenuff says:
December 7, 2015 at 5:23 am
Hi minion, do you have any confirmable details of the extent of the sell off that you refer to? If you don’t it doesn’t matter. My understanding is that they have built on a toxic dump, anyone know if it has been cleaned up at all? If it hasn’t been cleaned up, then occupation would be hazardous, which makes little sense (they haven’t shown much sense for sometime now) but the building continues?
Just a few good tid bits, the strong rumour is that the WT is selling the Australian Bethel property and no longer keeping a branch there, supposedly happening 2016, but I have no more details than that. The WT has been setting up some sort of Company/Corporation in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia as some sort of holding company- speculation being that KH titles may be transferred to some obscure Company there with no links to WT and therefore possibly out of reach by the RC, if the WT defaults on any proposed compensation package to victims of child abuse. Malaysia is not WT friendly so the move definitely seems to be strategic and not much info has emerged yet. The last piece I can confirm because I have seen the letter, the WT in Australia wants to know if the BOE’s know of any qualified barristers, solicitors, chartered accountants or CP accountants who are in good standing, married, whether they have children or not and could the BOE’s quietly notify the Branch without revealing this to the congregations at large. Again sounds like they are wanting to fight (someone or something) possibly the RC and its yet to be delivered findings as to what the WT has done to help child victims. They certainly are fighting on a lot of fronts and I notice that 3 other Brooklyn properties have been put on the market. Where is all the money going? They have looted the KH funds. How much do they need?
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anonymous4 says:
December 6, 2015 at 6:45 pm
@ Tara
I totally agree with your idea of letting “worldly” people know who you are, where you come from, and what you’ve been through. Most people with any sense of decency will be sympathetic, even supportive, if only emotionally. Of course, I wouldn’t “gush”. One cannot expect new acquaintances to step into the role of one’s personal therapist. But by introducing the information in a timely, gradual, and discreet way, this can lead to new friendships. And from there, further connections leading to more “material” benefits, such as employment opportunities, further education or training, even romantic relationships. Sometimes sharing things like the JW Experience, in a balanced way, can garner sympathy and even lead to friendships. “Don’t be ashamed of who you were.”
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Tara says:
December 6, 2015 at 9:13 pm
I’m not ashamed. I find it a bit like going to therapy… Hi my name is…. I am a recovering JW. Phew… see that wasn’t so hard.
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anonymous4 says:
December 6, 2015 at 7:38 pm
To any current JW’s: I’d like to talk about “Apostate Lies”. Ask yourself one simple question: What do apostates have to gain by telling lies about the Watchtower? Look at history. People who wanted CONTROL and POWER over others ALWAYS organized. The Nazis were ORGANIZED. The Soviet Union was ORGANIZED. Global religions are ORGANIZED. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is ORGANIZED. There is, however, NO apostate ORGANIZATION. There is NO Global Apostate Movement. LOL Also, again HISTORY (not ME) shows us that the 2 most effective ways to CONTROL people are: FEAR (False Evidence Appearing Real) and PROPAGANDA (Belief). What PROPAGANDA (or Belief System) are apostates spreading?? I have yet to hear it!! What are their doctrines, teachings, rules, taboos? Where are all their books, magazines, tracts, pamphlets, broadcasts, conventions, and publicists? What about fearmongering? How do apostates try to scare you? By saying that if you don’t join them, Anti-Jehovah will destroy you? LOL I like helping people, but I visit this site primarily for ME. It’s cathartic. It’s an opportunity to express myself and share. I’m no martyr. I’m not about to climb up on a cross or a stake or whatever. I don’t pretend to be anything more or less than what I am. I don’t get Pinkie Points for every “convert” I make. Is there an Organization you know of that aggressively spreads its beliefs, holds its members in tight check, and threatens them with eternal destruction if they stray? THINK about this: Apostates have NOTHING to gain by discrediting Watchtower. Watchtower has EVERYTHING to gain by discrediting apostates, and by dismissing all scandals within their ranks as “apostate lies”.
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RetiredLE says:
December 6, 2015 at 10:44 pm
anonymous4 – Well said, thank you for that informative information. You get a “G” on your TMS Speech Counsel Slip for “36-Theme developed-37-Main points made to stand out- 38 -Interest-arousing introduction- 39- Effective conclusion- 40- Accuracy of statement- 41- Understandable to others-42 Informative to your audience- 44- Effective use of questions – 45 -Illustrations/examples that teach – 48 Reasoning manner – 49 Sound arguments given-52 Effective exhortation………ACTUALLY…. you know have FINALLY graduated from the TMS! -(Pause for audience applause). Now, the TMSO comments – ” Those of us who are students of history and are deeply assimilated by our loving Borg should genuinely appreciate Bro. A-4’s analogies and observations. Also, ‘hand in hand’ (like the Public Talk and WTS are always 😉 a special announcement from the “Christian Congregation” – Current imminent events and ‘new light’ show us that the only cognitive difference between the GB and “Dear Leader” and Publishers and North Koreans are our clothing and geography. Caleb and Sophia shall henceforth be called, Ji-Hoon and Ji-Won, with the additional appropriate change to authentic DPRK attire for all J.W.’s worldwide. No doubt you friends will be eager to listen obey and be blessed, in this matter. May your COOPERATION continue to unify the Brotherhood, maintain our Purity of Essence and avoid the ever present, ‘Evil tight pantaloons’ Sincerely, your “Dear Leaders” (BTW – “We Love You!”) …….. of course if we actually were, the direct channel, speaking for God, shouldn’t we say “God loves You?” ……oh, sorry, strike that last bit….
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RetiredLE says:
December 6, 2015 at 11:01 pm
Confidential accompanying letter to Elder Bodies….“Everyone who is not happy must be shot.”
also attributed to;
― John le Carré, The Little Drummer Girl
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anonymous4 says:
December 7, 2015 at 12:41 pm
LOL
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RunFromTheTower says:
December 7, 2015 at 10:33 am
Thank you for writing this article, and for exposing the WT corporation.
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anonymous4 says:
December 7, 2015 at 3:10 pm
Here’s some more “ammunition” against WT (and other assorted kooks). Besides the scientific evidence that human civilization is older than 6000 years, you can see some very interesting archeological, geological, and even astronomical evidence put forward in a fascinating documentary miniseries on Youtube and Netflix called The Pyramid Code (particularly the 5th (final) episode “A New Chronology”). This blows away the “old chronology” put forward by WT, other Christian Fundamentalists, and other religions (which I shall not name for safety’s sake ;)).
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Jake says:
December 7, 2015 at 6:05 pm
Let it die. There’s the response of a right wing government and the answer you’ll receive. No question please.
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Jake says:
December 7, 2015 at 6:12 pm
The final solution.
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Jake says:
December 7, 2015 at 6:24 pm
Welcome to ‘The Fletcher Memorial Home’ X
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Jake says:
December 7, 2015 at 6:43 pm
‘Not now John’
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Alexandria R says:
December 7, 2015 at 8:47 pm
The documentary is an eye opener. I feel “new light” is nothing more than excusing wrong teachings. The JWs are not drawing closer to the teachings of Jesus. Further away in fact. Crisis of Conscience is a good read. I recoil when I see anyone open a bible to try and indoctrinate me. I walk away from that because I’m burned out with that. I like the brother who wrote Crisis of Conscience. He was right when he said “Don’t attack an active JW because it doesn’t work. Waking is a gradual process. Wait and use tact. He’s right. His views are pretty good. I’m agnostic. That’s my choice. I’m happy with that. I’ve been agnostic for a very long time now. It feels good to be open about it.
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Meredith J says:
December 8, 2015 at 2:35 am
I think I’ve missed something here. Everyone’s saying @ this and @ that and I cannot see them or their comments. Humm. Makes me think that they have disappeared from here. Sounds like it was a good thing. Thanks JWSurvey.
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Susannah says:
December 8, 2015 at 4:32 am
The second video of Ana Leal outside Bethel has now been translated and added to this report. It is well worth watching and sharing.
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JB Reezner says:
December 8, 2015 at 4:23 pm
“This is the truth then, someone refuses to see what they do not want to see.” Did Ana know she was summing up the ENTIRE JW EXPERIENCE with those words?
Thanks again for your efforts, Susannah, Carlos, and Ana! This was an excellent post.
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← The Friday Column: Portuguese documentary overshadows Governing Body visit
Royal Commission findings: Watchtower policies place JW children “at significant risk of sexual abuse”
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Posted on December 8, 2015
Angus Stewart, senior council at the Royal Commission, has delivered damning summary findings detailing Watchtower's mishandling of child abuse
Angus Stewart, senior counsel at the Royal Commission, has delivered damning summary findings detailing Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse
The summer of 2015 saw The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse hold an eight-day hearing focusing on the Jehovah’s Witness organization.
Far from being a dry legal debate, the hearings made headlines around the world for good reason. It emerged that since 1950, the Australian branch of the Watchtower had failed to report over 1006 alleged child abusers in its membership to the authorities, and that this was not merely due to incompetence but rather a deliberate result of Watchtower policy and doctrine.
Now, almost six months later, the Royal Commission has published the Submissions of Senior Counsel Assisting the Commission, Angus Stewart.
The way this process works is that the Senior Counsel Assisting the Commission submits to the ARC what he feels the findings should be, based upon evidence gathered. Then the other involved parties get to respond to his submissions. Thus on the Royal Commission website you can see that both Watchtower and one of the abuse survivors, BCG, have submitted their requests for changes to the submission. These will be taken into consideration by the ARC, with modifications made where appropriate, and presented to the government.
This means changes might occur between now and final publication, but given the rather feeble nature of the Watchtower’s counter-submission I wouldn’t expect much watering down of the key findings.
In total, there are 77 findings, each supported by explanatory paragraphs. To examine them all in detail would take many articles, but in this series of three articles I have chosen to focus upon three areas, the first of which will be covered below:
The child sexual abuse policies and practices of Watchtower
To fully understand the gravity of Senior Counsel’s findings, we must first establish a little context about Witness culture.
One of the goals of the ARC was to establish why none of these 1,006 alleged abusers had been reported to the police. After all, even if it was the self-stated policy of the Watchtower for elders not to report (for reasons explored and debunked elsewhere in the submission), surely the outraged parents and their children would still be rushing to law enforcement? Why then had so many survivors and their families not done this?
As the hearings progressed, an answer emerged; a picture of a religion that on one hand tells its followers to obey secular laws, but adds caveats that the laws of the religion supersede secular laws, and that any person or organization outside the faith is potentially a tool of Satan, wicked and untrustworthy.
Thus, the first finding of the submission identifies what many exJW’s know all too well:
F1: The Jehovah’s Witness organisation presents its members with conflicting and ambiguous teachings regarding their relationship with secular authorities, thereby fostering a distrust of such authorities.
Given the explicit policy of not reporting abuse to the authorities, and with deep distrust of those authorities indoctrinated into Jehovah’s Witnesses, this meant that often the only measures available to Witnesses to investigate allegations, sanction abusers and protect children were those taken by the religion itself. This places even greater responsibility on Watchtower to ensure that these steps are effective in protecting children and sanctioning abusers.
How did Watchtowers internal processes hold up to scrutiny from the independent experts of the ARC?
Not well, to put it mildly.
Lets take, for example, the now infamous two witness rule. This is a Watchtower policy stating that any crime or sin must have at least two witnesses to the act before any judicial action can be taken, even if the investigating elders believe the accusation to be true. The religion justifies this policy as being a direct scriptural command found in Matthew 18:16, Deuteronomy 19:15, as well as in 2nd Corinthians and the book of Timothy.
The obvious problem here is that sexual abuse rarely occurs in the presence of two witnesses.
Much back and forth went on during the hearings between the Commission and senior Watchtower officials about whether this policy could be changed, and indeed as to whether Watchtower’s application of the scripture was even true to the original intent of bible writers. Watchtower made it clear that, despite their acknowledging the serious flaws inherent in the rule, it was nonetheless set in stone.
Due to the importance of this specific issue, the full submission of Senior Counsel is replicated below. It’s hard to see how it could be more damning. (Bold is mine)
F42 The requirement that two or more eyewitnesses to the same incident are required in the absence of a confession from the accused, the testimony of two or three witnesses to separate incidents of the same kind of wrongdoing, or strong circumstantial evidence testified to by at least two witnesses (i.e. the two witness rule):
a) means that in respect of child sexual abuse which almost invariably occurs in private, very often no finding of guilt will be made in respect of a guilty accused
b) causes victims of child sexual abuse to feel unheard and unsupported when it results in allegations of child sexual abuse not being upheld
c) is a danger to children in the Jehovah’s Witness organisation because its consequence is that very often nothing is done about an abuser in the organisation
d) does not seem to be applied by the Jehovah’s Witness organisation in the case of an accusation of adultery, which suggests that adultery is taken more seriously by the organisation than child sexual abuse, and
e) needs to be revisited by the Jehovah’s Witness organisation with a view to abandoning it or at least reformulating it to ensure that safe decisions as to someone being guilty of child sexual abuse can be made more easily.
The Commission also found that the policy of a male-only judicial committee interrogating a female survivor and investigating the accusation “is a fundamental flaw in the process which weakens the decisions by excluding women.”
With Watchtower’s investigative process judged dangerously flawed, what of the sanctions applied to offenders? The ARC was told that, should an abuser somehow be found guilty in spite of the two witness rule, they faced two possible sanctions from the religion: Reproof if they are considered to be repentant, and disfellowshipping if not.
Let’s start with the sanction of reproof. How did it fair up under Royal Commission scrutiny?
Not well.
It was established that, whilst a reproof would be announced to the congregation, the reason for the reproof would not be. The problem here is that a reproof can cover a vast spectrum of behavior; from simply getting a little drunk at a party at one end of the spectrum, all the way up to crimes such as child molestation and rape on the other. Thus there was no way for the congregation to know if the reproof meant there was a child abuser in their midst, and thus take steps to protect their children.
Thus, the Senior Counsel finds:
F52 The sanction of reproval therefore does nothing to protect children in the congregation and in the broader community.
Let’s say, however, that the elders do not judge the abuser to be repentant. In this case, they would disfellowship the person. Now, it must be admitted that since all in the congregation would then utterly shun this person, the children in the congregation would probably no longer be at risk from this abuser. However, as became painfully obvious during the interview with elder Kevin Bowdich on Day 149, there is still a massive problem with this sanction.
(Excerpt from Transcript Day 149)
Senior Counsel Angus Stewart: In your decision on whether or not to disfellowship someone, you don’t take consideration of children outside of the congregation?
Kevin Bowdich: We do take consideration of them, but what ability have we got to protect every child in Australia?
Thus, the Senior Counsel finds:
F54 The sanction of disfellowshipping does nothing to protect children in the community.
So, to summarize:
◾The Watchtower judicial process is usually prevented from taking place due to the two witness rule.
◾If the process does take place, it is not fit for purpose.
◾The sanctions available to the judicial process are in most cases meaningless from a child protection standpoint.
Hardly surprising that of the Watchtower policies overall, the Senior Counsel finds: (Bold is mine)
F67 The practices and procedures of the Jehovah’s Witness organisation for the prevention of child sexual abuse, and in particular for the management of the risk of an abuser reoffending, do not take account of the actual risk of an offender reoffending and accordingly place children in the organisation at significant risk of sexual abuse.
The Senior Counsel's findings reveal that Watchtower's child abuse policies do more harm than good
The Senior Counsel’s findings reveal that Watchtower’s child abuse policies do more harm than good
Oh, and one other quick finding to discuss before we go…
The hearings explored what would happen if an abuse survivor, disgusted and wounded from her treatment by Watchtower, wanted to leave the religion. The Watchtower representatives questioned on this point tried to spin and misrepresent their policy as being enlightened, kind and respectful of religious freedom, allowing people to choose another faith without serious repercussions.
Did the Senior Counsel agree?
If you are currently being shunned, or feel that you are being forced to shun someone despite your conscience, this is what an independent legal investigative team with no skin in the game finds on the question of the JW shunning policy. (Bold is mine)
F69 Members of the Jehovah’s Witness organisation who no longer want to be subject to the organisation’s rules and discipline have no alternative than to leave the organisation which requires that they disassociate from it.
F70 The Jehovah’s Witness organisation’s policy of requiring its adherents to actively shun those who leave the organisation
a) makes it extremely difficult for someone to leave the organisation
b) is cruel on those who leave and on their friends and family who remain behind
c is particularly cruel on those who have suffered child sexual abuse in the organisation and who wish to leave because they feel that their complaints about it have not been adequately dealt with
d) is not apparently justified by the Scriptures which are cited in support of it
e) is adopted and enforced in order to prevent people from leaving the organisation and
thereby to maintain its membership, and
f) is in conflict with the organisation’s professed support for freedom of religious choice and
the belief that Jehovah God is a compassionate God who recognises the worth and dignity of all human beings.
If you are an active Jehovah’s Witness, perhaps reading this article because you are having doubts, or because you are seeking to better understand the accusations you have heard about your organization, please read the findings contained in the submission. Read the transcripts available on the same website. Watch the videos of the testimony available on youtube. Then ask yourself:
◾Were you aware that Watchtower dealt with child abuse in this way?
◾Do the facts uncovered by this independent investigation based on Watchtower’s own documents and the testimony of elders match the way this matter has been presented to you by Watchtower?
◾Do you think an organisation that treats perpetrators and survivors of sexual assault in this way can have the approval of a loving God?
covert-fade-signature
Further reading…
◾Reveal article: Jehovah’s Witnesses shield child sex abusers from police, report says
◾12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
◾Royal Commission’s Angus Stewart accuses Watchtower representative of deliberate deception
◾Elders shamed under questioning by the Royal Commission
◾Australian Royal Commission hears that 1,006 alleged child sex abusers were covered up by Watchtower
◾Stephen Lett slams “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” concerning child abuse record
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
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← The Friday Column: Portuguese documentary overshadows Governing Body visit
89 Responses to Royal Commission findings: Watchtower policies place JW children “at significant risk of sexual abuse”
Stephane Laliberte says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:04 am
Thanks for the work you have put into this article. I will read it all this evening. In the meantime, I wanted to express my gratitude for this. Thanks again!
Reply
Sister drifter UK says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:21 am
Will the findings reach the UK newspapers?
This should be much more readily available rather than havng to search for it.
Reply
Covert Fade says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:57 am
That’s a good question. The original story in August ran in a number of newspaper and online UK sites. I know the Australian branch of The Guardian has run a story about the new report, so hopefully the UK arm will do the same. Trey Bundy has run a report on this as well, so the story is circulating the news world. Hopefully it will get some UK exposure.
Reply
JBob says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:02 am
If I’m not mistaken there’s a prosecution ramp up in the States which has a similar approach in holding the elder body accountable for neglecting to report abuse charges for investigation.
http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/2015/11/09/judge-weighs-religious-exemption-child-abuse-reporting/75452974/
As highly emotionally charged as this issue is becoming, I would like to use the extreme and absurd parallel. Let’s say instead of a young child reporting someone “inappropriately touching them” or perception that it was an inappropriate touch, it is a mature adult (elder, perhaps) that confesses, “I participated in violating and murdering numerous young (anonymous) women (hikers or prostitutes); I disposed of them, so they’re just “missing”.
Two witness rule? There’s no evidence of it–does the elder body dismiss it as a case of mental troubles? attention-grabbing attempts?
There’s a long-standing tradition also that the leadership of the Watchtower ignores any “what-if” speculations (yeah, but guessing the end of the world…right?) and only deals with actual cases. Well, it would seem there are enough cases stacked up that someone would’ve put a policy or procedure in place to deal with severe criminal allegations or confessions which did not entail hiding the predator.
And, I know I’m sick and tired of hearing excuse that “well, this is still God’s chosen organization, even though there are humans that fail within it and do things that aren’t godly”, so despite your “hurt feelings” come on back (for more?). Yes, well, that’s true–people do bad things, so you’ve acknowledged it, now get something in place to protect those innocents who are impacted by humans that abuse their power, privileges–something that counterbalances the natural political (socialization) “I got your six, buddy” of powerful individuals protecting and sheltering each other against the “little people”.
Had to vent—
Good job, Covert Fade.
Reply
Sven says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:26 am
Well written. Continue to keep your eyes on what the Watchtower is doing. I hope many are reading.
Reply
Chiafade says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:32 am
Glad to read this piece thank you Covert Fade. I knew an article would be coming soon as the findings were released over a week ago.
These findings are particularly damning once one sees the videos or reads the transcripts. Every active witness should be aware of what’s happening but they are not and they WILL not be told by the organization.
I enjoyed the description of Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony. Whereby it says that although he said he had empathy. The fact that he didn’t bother to read bcg’s file says otherwise. Also the dismissal of Dr. Applewhites “defense” of watchtower policies.
This has got to sting all over for watchtower. The recent Portugal debacle doesn’t help their case either. The gb will be downfall of their own corporation. They are SO deluded that they feel untouchable. Besides “let the local witnesses set the matter straight”- David Splane in Portugal.
That’s right witnesses! The gb can’t be bothered to set the matter straight so they leave it up to YOU the publisher. How fair is that?
Reply
Covert Fade says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:10 am
Yep, Angus cuts Jackson to bits in the report, which will be the topic of the second of the three articles I’m doing on this subject. :)
Also, I totally agree that the fine, wise men of the Governing Body are probably the best weapon that the exJW community could hope to have against the the cult. If these nincompoops had any self awareness they would have stayed behind the curtain, but now they are out in the spotlight, racking up gaff after gaff. So many recently exited JW’s, such as Daniel Genser, have mentioned the GB’s public lunacy as being a factor in their awakening.
Reply
Janice Gilbert says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:37 am
WONDERFULLY DONE! I finally took the action of separating myself from all Jehovah’s Witness associates. None of them wanted to read the articles or watch the videos of the hearing. In doing so, they have blinded themselves to the truth about the organization and I can no longer take it. I am using my real name now and could care less if I am labeled an apostate. I can not believe the willingness of members to just automatically follow whatever the wbts says. It is a cult. I loved this article. All I can say Mr. Cedars is THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:57 am
Yes, it’s EXACTLY like someone stated in an earlier post: The GB and their followers ‘cover their eyes’ and then think no one else can see them. Foolish…
Reply
Cesar Arguelles says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:31 am
That is exactly how I feel. I have started using my real name for everything. Being a witness for over 30 years , there is one thing I learned from the Borg: to seek the truth and live the truth. So that is what I am doing, seeking and speaking the truth. I will scream it to the 4 winds, the truth about the Governing Body. I am not at all upset with the brothers, poor things, they are just under mind control. After reading Steve Hassan’s books, I can only feel pity for them. They are slaves of the Borg, so I cannot hold them accountable. That is why I refuse to discuss doctrine with them. They are blind. All I will continue to do is speak the truth. For the sake of those that are beginning to study with them or show any type of sympathy towards them. JW’s as individuals are for the most part very nice people, they are just unduly influenced by a mind controlling organization.
Reply
anonymous says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:48 am
theres more to life than jws. start thinking again before life over.
Reply
santos trafficante says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:37 am
did you actually try and get them to read the articles and see the videos? did they automatically stop talking to you after you tried to get them to wake the hell up?
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:02 am
This is an excellent piece of journalism and I congratulate Covert Fade for bringing out the facts of the Royal Submission. As I stated in the last post, I feel that donating to a religion that permits such wickedness is not giving the right message to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. We need to reduce our donations by 80%. They need to feel the economic woes when they do not handle things appropriately. A judicial fine is not enough. The reason for the fine is to force compliance with the laws. When we donate more, we are lessening the financial implications imposed by the judicial process. We are telling Watchtower that it is ok to do wickedness when we donate. That is not the message we want to give. We need the fine to be a negative reinforcement, not a positive one.
Reply
Covert Fade says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:05 am
I tend to agree that the only things Watchtower seem to understand are legal threats and financial pain. That tells you a lot about Watchtower.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:07 am
Excellent suggestion. It’s called ECONOMIC POWER!!
Reply
Cesar Arguelles says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:33 am
Who is donating at all to WTS? Not me.
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:37 am
Neither am I. I do think they need to at least eat some food.
Reply
Tara says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:40 am
Don’t think I ever have lol
Reply
Ruthlee says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:50 am
My blasted husband still donates quite a lot out of out joint account much to my disapproval ! ruthlee
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:37 am
I was asked by the Elders at the Kingdom Hall the following question: Don’t you believe that the governing body is the Faithful and Discreet Slave class? They told us they were. Now, I have 132 pages of facts that they are not the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Part 11 of the Submission Report is a significant summary of all 77 Findings from Angus Stewart.
Reply
Garrett says:
December 8, 2015 at 4:56 pm
I wouldn’t waste my spit on them if the GB were on fire. Donations?
Hot lead !
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:05 am
Jehovah’s Witnesses: WAKE UP! What if your Doctor told you that he had some bad news for you? Would you say, “I don’t want to hear it”, then walk away??
Reply
Joel says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:18 am
This should be made easily accessible to people everywhere in Africa.
Reply
Tara says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:35 am
Thanks CF for this. I hope it reaches further than Australian news. Here in Canada it made hardly a ripple, although a publisher did quietly ask me about it.
Reply
Deep Thinker says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:50 am
When I first found out about the ARC and mentioned it to my in-laws, they went into total denial and refused to believe it.
When I mentioned that the WTS gave them the 1006 cases after being subpoenaed, they still did not believe it. All lies.
That is what you are dealing with. It is very sad. Intelligent very nice people who actually go out of their way really helping physically other people but live with the horse blinders on. They have chosen the Blue pill.
I have chosen the Red pill, but unfortunately cannot swallow it. I just plug along keeping everyone happy.
Reply
Findme says:
December 8, 2015 at 12:54 pm
Hi Tara, as always i enjoyed your comments, greeting from Canada
Reply
Tara says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:05 pm
Hey findme – I’m here in Canada :) Nice to find another Canuck :)
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:40 am
@ Baby
lol No, I seriously doubt the GB, overseers, and elders have any idea what the future holds…
Reply
Simon Williams says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:43 am
Excellent summary Covert Fade. The WBTS seems to have almost totally forgotten in the submission what they were directly advised by one of the commissioner’s:
“But the starting point is to identify where you or your client accepts the problems are – and some of those are blatantly obvious from the words, not according to the practice, and then, moving on from there, what steps your client might take to bring its processes and its documentation up to an appropriate position.”
They will be appearing again to explain their response, or, as seems most likely, lack of it. Disgraceful really in comparison to even other religions who have begun the process of trying to protect children better than they have done in the past.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:44 am
@ Baby
Re: ‘Apostates always lie. Even when they tell the truth for a moment…’ — WOW, u seem to have it all figured out!
Reply
Will says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:46 am
WOW!!! So many victims and it took so many years for the Watchtower to be outed for their injustice and cruelty.
Reply
Big B says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:12 am
As always another fine article of the continued policy blunders and cover-ups of the seven mental midgets calling themselves “the faithful and discrete slave”.
Has anyone noticed, besides myself, that these problems (child abuse, financial woes, lack of increase and corporate downsizing) have been highlighted since the uncovering of the Watchtowers involvement with the United Nations (scarlet colored wild beast) as a NGO? How does one recognize false religion, namely “Babylon the Great”, except by finding out who are the religious organizations supporting (riding)U.N.?
Firstly, this cult does not believe its own doctrine.
Secondly, this cult defames the name of the very God whom they profess to have loyalty to.
Really then, these seven mental dwarfs at the world H.Q. are, in fact, the UNFAITHFUL and INDISCREET slave (read “wicked slave class”). Verily, “their chickens have truly come home to roost”!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:23 am
Ironic that the Watchtower Society is considered an NGO (Non-Governmental Organization), since they truly have their own internal Government. Anyone remember, during the Aussie Royal Commission, Geoffrey Jackson raising his bible and proudly asserting, “This is OUR Constitution!”?
Reply
JBob says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:08 am
That just sent an horrific chill down my spine, because that sort of defiant ‘tude is exactly the same thing we saw out of the Branch Davidian leaders and those fundamental Latter-Saints movement groups that eventually had violent confrontations with the legal authorities in the States.
Reply
Justin (formerly J*L*C*R) says:
December 8, 2015 at 4:18 pm
@JBob…it is terrible to think about but the JW’s are programmed to follow the GB without question…who knows how far that kind of indoctrination could go
“We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval.” Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.24 Simplified English Edition
Reply
Deep Thinker says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:59 am
I believe it wasn’t the NGO affair. Most JW’s are unaware of that.
What I believe has happened is two things.
1. The JW’s live for End of the World dates, and December 12, 2012 on the Mayan Calendar was the final date for many. There just are no new dates that they can get anyone excited about.
2. The Internet has demystified everything. It is so easy to check up on anything to see if is true or not.
It is only the very young or very old that are getting baptized today. Not enough to sustain continual growth.
Reply
phoenix_rising says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:12 am
Wow! WOW! Covert Fade what I loved about this is how it sticks to the facts and anyone can read it objectively. I will be sharing this with many active JW’s who have hit that first level of “Wtf is going on?”. This was so clearly and easily written. Thank you!
*cheers*
Reply
Searcher says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:24 am
Thus the old saying, “What comes around, goes around.”
The GB and WTS are reaping what they have sown for so long. They cannot hide in the age of information and education, their worst enemies.
Reply
Covert Fade says:
December 8, 2015 at 8:26 am
One other thing I’d like to say:
I understand that there may be some active JW’s or defenders of Watchtower who may wish to post in the comments here and challenge these findings. Obviously, the final decision as to whether a comment infringes guidelines and gets removed is Lloyd’s, and I will support any action he takes.
Speaking for myself only, if you wish to dispute these findings, I am happy to engage with you if you:
A:) keep a civil tone.
B:) back up your arguments with evidence.
Simply stating “these are all lies” has no credibility as Geoffrey Jackson, your own Governing Body member, admitted under oath, as recorded in transcript and video, has stated that the basic facts reported upon here are not lies. That is; the facts of the case as regards Watchtower policy, and the facts of the case as regards the 1006 abusers.
You are free to debate with me as to whether WT policies are harmful or not, or to debate scriptural interpretation. I will engage in good faith, keep my tone civil and respectful, and assume good motives on your part.
But to deny that these policies exist as stated, and that 1006 abusers were not reported, even in the face of Jackson’s explicit endorsement of these facts, removes your credibility, and I will not engage with you.
Over to you :)
Reply
Pow says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:34 am
Maybe it’s time to overturn the money boxes (contribution), and drive all the jw.org paraphernalia out of k.halls before the Romans (government ) comes and takes it all away.. (taxes/ligation ).
Reply
Scrubmaster says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:06 am
But how can a Witnesses even feel good debating the fact and defending Jeffrey, when he himself said it would be presumptuous for the GB to say it is God’s only spokes person on earth! Personally that statement in and of itself should wake people up! Finally the GB has tried tempered this child abuse exposure by getting out in front and stating on a broadcast this is all lies. Finally what really blows me away about the whole thing is if one is truly a Christian and read the bible, even God’s own chosen people did disgusting things such as offering their children up as sacrifices. So instead of trying to hide bad things, the Org should work to correct them that would be much more noble. NO organization is perfect.
Reply
iclone says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:44 am
Great article! For so long the Watchtower has been carrying on in such a reckless and destructive manner with the attitude that they have “Theocratic Immunity”. Well the house of cards is starting to crumble…good on them.
Reply
RunFromTheTower says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:57 am
Thank you for posting this, and for taking the time to research and review the ARC documents. Very much appreciated. Articles such as these are what make JWSurvey, JWFacts, and the other ex-JW websites and YouTube channels invaluable. Keep exposing the WT corporation fronted by the religious cult name of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Much love from Southern California.
Reply
Robert67 says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:38 am
Fantastic win for the movement, congrats to all involved. Now it is the job of everyone reading these findings to spread them everywhere they can. Time to start contacting the local media and convince them to cover this story.
Reply
RC says:
December 8, 2015 at 11:05 am
Please do so. Maybe some more JW’s will wake up because of this. I have realised that i am not upto the task of helping my cousin. The last 1 Year i tried my best but to no avail. It is time i step back. Dealing with a cult member has to be one of the most difficult things i have ever done. It is like ramming your head against a brick wall. Thanks to cedars, robert67, caroline,dee ,jb reezner. You guys are really great. As for me, time to forget about JW . Hopefully my cousin may have some doubts and stumble upon this site.
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 11:17 am
As the GB “dumb down” everything, the average Witness just gets dumber and dumber. Lowered expectations…
The Watchtower is desperately trying to expand the ranks of its soldiery, while the quality of the individual soldier is exponentially deteriorating.
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 11:36 am
So I recently dug up some Sacred Scrolls in the Holy Land. They say that we should all do the Will of Mickey Mouse, and that Donald Duck is the Devil. They tell of a Great Man who walked on water, named Walt Disney. Also, there are rules, like if someone commits a heinous act, it cannot be revealed unless there were 273 witnesses. Hey, if somebody 2 or 3 thousand years ago went to all the trouble to write this stuff down, it MUST be TRUE, RIGHT??!
P.S. How easy it is to start a new religion!! Just 60 years ago, L. Ron Hubbard, a SCIENCE FICTION NOVELIST, started HIS own religion. I can imagine 2000 years from now, there may be millions or billions of followers, every one claiming that it is God’s Own truth!
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TJ Curioso says:
December 8, 2015 at 11:53 am
Great article! Well done…
I made a similar article the last week about the same, only in portuguese:
http://desperta.weebly.com/notiacutecias/divulgado-relatorio-da-comissao-real-australiana-para-abusos-sexuais-de-criancas-sobre-as-politicas-organizacionais-das-testemunhas-de-jeova
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phoenix_rising says:
December 8, 2015 at 1:19 pm
I had to share my experience today. I shared this article with a family member who is having issues with the elders. They were shocked by the investigation – but I started to laugh and then wanted to slam my head against my desk when I read the following text.
“This is horrible! Do you think some apostate has worked their way to the top and is promoting these harmful policies?”
^ I never realized how deep indoctrination can make a person fit a square into a circle with thinking like that. It is obvious to us what is going on – and even when faced with hard cold facts – that family member found a way to spin it and protect the organization and the GB. arrgh!
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Covert Fade says:
December 8, 2015 at 1:23 pm
Wow!
Well, the good news is they’ve acknowledge the problem. The next article will reference the fact that Jackson confirmed all the policies were official and from the Governing Body, so if they’re looking for apostates, there are 7 of them…
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phoenix_rising says:
December 8, 2015 at 2:04 pm
Covert Fade I also wanted to thank you for engaging in the comments section as well. It’s awesome.
And you are correct – it is a good sign this family member was willing to read this article. I think we live in an amazing time where information is readily available. And the Gov Body is truly shooting themselves in the foot everytime they appear in public. It truly feels like they are taking the magic and charm out of “A perfect organization.”
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Juli says:
December 8, 2015 at 1:23 pm
Wonderful article and thank you so much! I’ve been waiting with bated breath for this. The Royal Commission is fantastic and did a superb job. Does anyone know what happens next with this issue?
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Covert Fade says:
December 8, 2015 at 2:05 pm
Next stage in the process is for the ARC to finalise this report. Watchtower have challenged almost every point, but their rebuttal on the website is long on words, doublespeak and emotional manipulation, and very sort on the sort of arguments that would actually sway the ARC.
After that, sometime in the next 24 months another public hearing will take place where the cult is summoned back before the ARC and will be publicly asked what it has done to fix the problem…
…that should be fun.
Lastly, the Royal Commission will deliver a final report to the government in two years. It’s highly expected to press hard for statutory financial compensation for victims, and can actually make any other recommendations it thinks are needed, including the passing of new laws. Expect Watchtower Australia to take a serious financial hit on that, and possibly face laws that make reporting mandatory.
Oh, and I won’t spoil it too much because I’m hoping to cover it in the final article but…if you read the report in full, you might notice direct mention of Vince Toole, Watchtowers Senior Lawyer who used infamously used “theocratic warfare” on the “theocratic warfare question put to him by the ARC.
Tool’s future in law looks a little…uncertain. 😀
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Doc Obvious says:
December 8, 2015 at 2:31 pm
I hope Australia outlaws the shunning practice. Then, life could be interesting in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. This whole investigation clearly blew up in Watchtower’s face. The ARC web site is chock full of documentation. The United States judicial system needs to take notes on how it is really done.
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 4:13 pm
Hey, don’t be too hard on the USA. After all, the U.S. and the other Western “Powers” are busy fighting the Grand and Glorious “War on Terror”, leaving folks like us to do the gruntwork of taking on much less “glamorous” terrorists like WT. (Too bad WE don’t get to use drones) 😉 Gotta hand it to the Aussies though. At least someone is “pulling their weight”. I guess that Outback heritage makes a person TOUGH.
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Juli says:
December 8, 2015 at 2:40 pm
Thank you so much! You’ve made my day, my year, in fact. I’m so happy about this. I also read where the less than bright Dr. Applewhite’s testimony was rejected. Glad to see that, as she had no clue what she was talking about. I’ll be watching closely and I can’t wait to see the final outcome. I feel like I’ve just won the lottery! Thanks again, Covert.
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 4:30 pm
Very encouraging. I just wish the time period was 24 days or 24 weeks rather than 24 months. I have 6 nieces and nephews who are currently being brainwashed to take up “pioneer service” after they leave high school. This has been going on since their pre-teens. It disgusts me. So I would LOVE to see WT pull a “Titanic” and sink to the BOTTOM OF THE SEA! Never too soon for me!! In any case, the clock IS ticking for WT. Tick…tock…tick…tock…tick…tock…Can you smell the fear?
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Tara says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:13 pm
Yes I read that bit about Toole – what a tool indeed lol. Right spanner in the works is that one but the ARC will wrench him out of it. and back to the eggnog and rum for me :)
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
December 8, 2015 at 3:36 pm
I find it stunning that the Watchtower Society has contested just about every single one of Angus Stewart’s findings. I don’t know why I am so surprised, but what it shows is that even after the ARC dismantling their policies, and having had a further four months to consider everything, they still remain entrenched in their unscriptural, unloving, god-forsaken position. No repentance, no contrition, no apology, no change.
And did anybody pick up this little gem from the August 2015 Watchtower, page 32 – Geoffrey Jackson’s life story? The very month that he was sitting in front of the ARC, after his minions had gone to great lengths to keep him out of the dock because his work is “only with regard to the translation of matters”, he states in his life story: “I can no longer serve as a translator.” Although he goes on to say “I thank Jehovah that he allows me to continue supporting the worldwide translation work” – this just illustrates that his role if far greater than just translation – as if we didn’t know that already. But I just can’t believe the barefaced cheek of them using that as an excuse when the Watchtower that very month contradicted their testimony.
I really hope they get criminal charges laid against them, I think this is the only way to break through and hopefully wake more people up. And I really hope this sets a precedent for other nations to follow. As I watched that commission here in Australia, I found myself for the first feeling proud to be an Australian, but ashamed to be a JW (which I no longer am.) In the end, Angus Stewart was a more Christlike man than any of them – he left with his integrity and dignity in tact (along with Jutsice McLellan), which is more than I can say for any of those “shepherds.”
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Beks says:
December 8, 2015 at 3:44 pm
I grew up as a Witness, was sexually assaulted by a fellow Witness at the age of 10 and nothing was done about it other than the family trying to say it never had happened. I lived my life until I ran away from home at 17 when my parents disowned me and I was disfellowshipped watching this man get further and further up the ranks of our congregation. There was so much hypocrisy within the organization yet because I wanted to leave it I was viewed as evil and to the day of my parents deaths they held resentment and shame towards me simply because I wouldn’t believe in their version of God and live in a cult. I struggle to this day with feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and remorse due to having been brought up as a Witness and I think it is the most awful thing you could do to another human being.
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Tara says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:12 pm
If you had your chance would you report it Beks? I am so very sorry for your suffering. Believe me when I say I have empathy with you.
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 4:46 pm
Definition of Theocratic Warfare: Lying about “The Truth”
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Garrett says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:01 pm
Bottom line however is that the GB are getting by with all of it. Where is the revocation of their charity status? Where are the class action suits? Why haven’t they lost their non-profit status in America? Why isn’t this all up front center news like the recent shooting by Muslims in California?
In the end, the Watchtower has gotten by with it all…..
………..or ???
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:28 pm
Many people are asking the same questions…
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Jc says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:27 pm
@ Beaks,
Hang in there. You have no reason to feel guilty .You are at the right place and time to get assistance from the fine foke’s on this site. I left the org last year and still have family in. No lie, it has not been easy but you will receive true comfort here. Take care.
And by the way great article CF.
Reply
Eric Arthur Blair says:
December 8, 2015 at 5:52 pm
I thought you might like to know, a family member of mine is in Terry O’Brien’s congregation. Apparently he has been as sick as a dog these past few months, and his wife has had shingles. He has a knee operation recently, which no doubt contributed, but my family member mentioned that they had both looked “very stressed” this year. I’m not surprised given that he was caught out deliberately misleading the court. I wonder if cognitive dissonance is setting in? One can only hope so.
I want to say for the record that I have met Terry twice and he is a genuinely warm and caring person. It saddened me to see him respond the way he did to the ARC, but also demonstrates the conflict of loyalty such men are suddenly confronted with in these situations. At the end of the day, he is captive too. Unfortunately, history has shown time and time again that good people do bad things when they are held captive to a false belief system and being controlled by an elite ruling class which cannot be contradicted or challenged. History has also shown that the defence “I was only following orders” is not good enough.
I would rather have questions that I cannot answer, than answers that I cannot question.
Reply
Garrett says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:06 pm
“I would rather have questions that I cannot answer, than answers that I cannot question.”
Brilliant Eric. Ill remember that saying.
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Tara says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:06 pm
I don’t know how to reply to this one. Part of me says ‘well he brought it on himself’, but the part of me that knows the way the Borg. manipulates people has me wanting to show pity for him and his wife. It’s like having a dog that bites you and when you go to chastise it, it wags it’s tail feebly and shows you those doggy eyes. The question is, where do you draw the line. I felt total contempt for the man as I watched him on the ARC. but I guess he is as much a duped slave to the Borg. as any one of us is or has been. Karma is a bitch isn’t she.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:35 pm
You just answered your own dilemma. It becomes simply a question of “drawing the line”. After all, you may feel sorry for that dog, but YOU are the one who got bitten!
Reply
Robert67 says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:57 pm
Don’t forget he placed pedophiles over children, no pity for a pedo enabler. They should all face lawsuits along with the watchtower, none of this “I was just following the gb’s orders” excuses. Children’s were abused, lives were destroyed, monsters were protected.
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Tara says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:57 pm
You are both totally right. I am a gentle soul at heart but children come before tired old men with sore knees.
Sister drifter UK says:
December 9, 2015 at 2:03 am
We mustn’t forget that there are many many dear sincere brothers serving as elders and honestly believing that they should follow orders.
Not everyone is clever with words or able to manage the intensity of being in court- it’s a very intimidating place to be for even the most switched on and articulate of people. The questions can catch you out and it is very easy to slip up even if ‘schooled’ ahead of the hearing.
I am sure Terry Obrien and his family have been shaken by the whole thing and are suffering.
Geoffry Jackson however had the benefit of not actually being present other than by video link- who knows who was in the background helping him out.
For those of who are fading/ faded/ left -we must remember the kindness and sincerety of so many brothers and who find them selves totally out of their depth. And then in trouble and open to criticism.
Throughout my nearly 60 years and being in 8 congregations before fading I can think of so many elders who were kind, sincere and did their best.
They have been ‘skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd’
Reply
enuffsenuff says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:03 pm
I note that the WT will face punitive financial measures and long overdue as many others have already said. Yet they are crying for money. My understanding is that at Warwick or Wallkill they have built on a toxic dump, anyone know if it has been cleaned up at all? If it hasn’t been cleaned up, then occupation would be hazardous, which makes little sense (they haven’t shown much sense for sometime now) but the building continues?
Just a few good tid bits, the strong rumour is that the WT is selling the Australian Bethel property and no longer keeping a branch in Australia????, supposedly happening 2016, but I have no more details than that. If that is true, and I haven’t been able to confirm that, then will they cry poverty and and have no money and no assets to pay anyone. WT so far has shown its major propensity is to fight (legally) on every front. I have no doubt that asset protection is way ahead of sex abuse compensation on the priority scale. I am of a mind to think that since the Bible doesn’t mention child sex abuse the WT figures it is not their problem
The WT has also been setting up some sort of Company/Corporation in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, as some sort of holding company- speculation being that Aust KH titles may be transferred to some obscure Company Incorporated there with no links to WT and therefore possibly out of reach by the ARC/Govt if the WT defaults on any proposed compensation package to victims of child abuse.
Malaysia is not WT friendly so the move definitely seems to be strategic and not much info has emerged yet. The last piece I can confirm because I have seen the letter, the WT in Australia wants to know if the BOE’s know of any qualified barristers, solicitors, chartered accountants or CP accountants who are in good standing, married, whether they have children or not and could the BOE’s quietly notify the Branch without revealing this to the congregations at large. Accountants??? Sounds like help in needing money transferred to tax havens.
Lawyers sound like they are wanting to fight (someone or something) possibly the ARC and its delivered findings as to what the WT has done to help child victims. They certainly are fighting on a lot of fronts and I notice that 3 other Brooklyn properties have been put on the market. Where is all the money going? They have looted the KH funds. How much do they need?
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Garrett says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:12 pm
Thanks for all that information “Enuffsenuff”.
All good stuff…I was rather hoping for a wooden stake, soaked in Holy Water driven into their cold hearts however.
I think you are right. They are definitely on the ropes.
Reminds me of the Nazis in the final days. “Grab assets and run”…..The Watchtower is looking for its legalistic “South America” where it can hide out in financial shelters…but I think they are more like cockroaches running around in a shoe box looking for shadow and shelter…….
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:55 pm
“New Light” is shining forth and the cockroaches are scurrying wildly to their corners. Too bad they are running out of places to hide.
Reply
Robert67 says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:58 pm
When the grass is cut the snakes will show.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:11 pm
Hmmmmm. Wonder if there’s any Agent Orange left over?
Caltanzee says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:53 pm
Yes! It’s confirmed that watchtower has put all of its remaining portfolio of properties up for bid. This was on Google news in my inbox yesterday. There are into negotiations with a real estate consortium.. There are selling out lock, stock and barrel and heading out of dodgecity..Heading to toxic Warwick boot hill. Lol
Nd
Reply
Eric Arthur Blair says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:50 pm
Sure enough, a news item went up on jw.org two days ago, in the news section. It is basically a Real Estate Ad masquerading as a news item.
I would love to see that letter to the Elder bodies also. If these rumours are true, not only is it the height of hypocrisy and shows that they are more interested in protecting their assets and brand than anything else, but also another example of them utilising the very skills of qualified people they condemn for having obtained higher education!
I read this outstanding article online recently. I would highly recommend it:
http://thinkingwitnesses.org/organisation-sponsored-my-higher-education/
Reply
Chiafade says:
December 9, 2015 at 1:30 am
Absolutely nothing new for the organization to do something like
1) ask/ demand money
2) ask for lawyers
The letter that was sent in the U.S. maybe a year ago even came with a disclaimer! “This does not mean we are encouraging a higher education to become lawyers”.
When there were (and still are)dozens of lawsuits down the pipeline that letter was sent to all congregations. This is a DISASTER for the org and they can’t keep a lid on it no matter how hard they try. The U.S., Australia, Portugal and the U.K. same scandal. Brazil is going to be another tragedy for them because of the Portuguese documentary.
We are seeing the signs of an organization in panick mode. One that has ZERO faith in what its selling. Self preservation first. Screw everyone else. Including children! Disgusting filthy vile men.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:05 pm
Don’t worry, if the GB are unable to live on a toxic waste dump (how ironically and poetically appropriate BTW), I’m sure the Government will be happy to put them up in the Concrete Condo.
Reply
Caltanzee says:
December 8, 2015 at 6:39 pm
There’s definitely too many flawed policies within the organization. And the main reason these out of date harmful policies continue to proliferate, is due to the ingrained indoctrination and fear.That it’s tantamount to incurring death by being in non compliance with the slave/ Governing body dictates and that of the so-called spirit appointed men/elders, who many of them bask in the glory of having power over the flock, many of whom stand in worshipful awe of these deluded men.These men boast that their are the stars in Jesus hand. Alluding to, that they have a special connection with Christ.This in effect causes many to suffer abuses in silence.
Because of the power of prestige that has been bestowed on these men.This prestige of power is alluded to in song # 123. Entitled.” Shepherds gifts in men. ..Then there is song. #120 “listen, obey, and be blessed” And many more subtleties..Thank God that many have broken free of this stupified spell. Shedding light on the evil monstrosity that’s deeply entrenched in watchtower. So many know things are wrong.But are too afraid to leave for fear of the cruel reprisal of shunning, being labled Apostates.Being in fear of dying a horrible death at Armageddon because of unfaithfulness to an organization. Its hard for non jws to get a grip on the mind numbing effects that exsist in jwdom..Just ask us who been there and woke up..Got our senses back through tears, pain, and research. And praise the commission to being able to shine the light. seeing through the fog of watchtower spin doctors and doctrine. Boldly exposing the dangers. Lets Applaud the brave souls. Who said enough is enough!! Coming forward to seek justice for the wrongs they suffered and were made to endure.
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 11:53 pm
I wonder if the GB will be able to dismiss their financial troubles as “apostate lies”. Cold hard Math is hard to argue with.
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JB Reezner says:
December 8, 2015 at 7:44 pm
Excellent article, Covert Fade! Thank you very much for the time you put into this. I’ll be eagerly looking forward to the next two articles. This is all very exciting and hopeful. Angus Stewart is my hero (seriously). And he’s become my favorite Angus too. Sorry, Angus Young– AC/DC is cool, but the Australian Royal Commission is even cooler.
But ease up on the America bashing, folks. When Donald Trump becomes our next president, he’s really going to straighten this country out. Ah, I laugh to keep from crying…
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 9:49 pm
Goodbye Watchtower, Hello Trump. Aaaaaaaaahhhhh!
Who knows, if The Donald’s Presidential bid doesn’t work out, WT may swing some kind of Real Estate deal with him. Maybe a Watchtower Casino? LMAO
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JB Reezner says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:50 pm
Lol, that could work. In fact, it could turn out to be a MUCH quicker way to take people for everything they have. Enough of this little-bit-at-a-time stuff…
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 10:23 pm
It always mystifies me how so many people are running around speaking for God. I for one have never met God. In fact, I have never met anyone who has met God. Yet each of these folks acts as if he or she is God’s golf buddy. Like they have afternoon tea with God. Or belong to the same bowling league or chess club. What blind arrogance! What mind-numbingly blind arrogance to presume YOU speak for the Almighty Creator of the Universe. To these people (of any religion or cult) I say: Can you STOP IT? Can you just STOP IT??!
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anonymous4 says:
December 8, 2015 at 11:47 pm
@ Tara
P.S.: If you’re ever wondering when to “draw the line”, the fact that you’re asking that question means the time is NOW.
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anonymous4 says:
December 9, 2015 at 12:01 am
The GB, overseers, elders, their wives, and all their ardent followers were never “spiritual” people. More like Madonna, they are “material” girls (and boys) living in a “material” world.
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KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
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August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
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Luke says:
October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
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Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
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Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
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Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
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Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
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frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
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Holy Connoli says:
November 17, 2015 at 1:14 am
Frankie.If I were you I would turn him into the police now even though it may have been several years ago he committed this crime. Many sexual predators get turned in years later after the crime is reveled. At the very least he will be investigated and his Name will be mud for being a creep.
He deserves it and so does the WT for its NON protection of the flock and not caring for the victim but only their phony reputation.
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Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
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Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
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frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
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pj wilcox says:
July 31, 2015 at 3:21 am
I watched the latest video of the inept elder being questioned by the commission. Who prepared this man for testimony? You all are aware of the dentist who shot Cecil the lion in Kenya? Well his life is over. He is in hiding. What he did ,did not break laws in Kenya and his is in a world of trouble with public sentiment. But this elder being questioned is far worse. He covered deeds that drove people to think of killing themselves. Should he not go into hiding? Is his life over? Has he know conscience? Emotion, caring? You know the answer. Bet ya, damage control is working overtime on this.
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Adrian says:
September 8, 2015 at 3:32 am
I think the Royal Commission videos demonstrate that fragility of the governance within the WT society. Yes, it’s an Australia branch issue but cross examination only points to the seat of control on which the governing body members sit. Everything starts and stops with the governing body, they set the policy but where are they? Sitting comfortably in NY watching from a distance ready to abdicate any responsibility whatsoever. A governing body governs and leads but I see no leadership I see the followers talking and being bashed around the head with questions, all too easy for the legal team.
However, it might just be me but does anyone else not see the lawyer’s gap in knowledge regarding the fundamental rationale for the WT society policies, they fall back in their comfort zone knowing that they can say ‘well we don’t have the authority to go beyond the bible.’
It’s this gap in knowledge of the legal representatives which the WT society exploit. I mean nobody is going to ask ‘ where actually did this translation come from anyway?’ What were the academic qualifications of the translators? Is there a possibility that you have interpreted things wrongly or even worse, translated things incorrectly? If there’s a possibility that your interpretation on how to deal with modern day child abuse cases in congregations may be flawed, then are you in agreement that your policies could result in lasting harm to victims of abuse? In my view that translation is the ‘elephant in the room’ every scholar knows it’s perverse but no one is holding this cult to account. So easy to say it’s all in the bible but should they really be saying it’s all in the NWT instead?
The WT society in the videos almost give of an innocence as if to say, ‘ but that’s what we understand from the scriptures’, and I think it works in their favor, but a savvy legal representative would do well to tease out the basis for the rendering of certain verses on which doctrine, policy and organisational decisions are based. So far the WT Society appears to be one step ahead because their authority is not a person but a book, which they are ‘only trying to understand and live by’. Expose the origin of the NWT and the basis for so many ridiculous uncaring decisions is called into question.
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Rick Viger says:
November 10, 2015 at 3:26 pm
Thanks John for all you do with your videos.
I’m an ex JW for 40 years now. I hope your videos reach some witnesses and make them think. For all of you that have left Watchtower remember you made the right decision.
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S.T. says:
November 24, 2015 at 9:48 pm
I was wondering if anyone has heard that Jehovah’s witnesses are telling there congregations that the end of this system could have only hours left? My sister who is a Jehovah’s Witness said they are preaching this at the congregations. Has anyone else heard this?
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