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The Friday Column: Questions Young People Ask – Answers That Don’t Work
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Posted on January 8, 2016
Since 1989, the Young People Ask series of books has been failing multiple generations of Witness adolescents
Since 1989, the Young People Ask series of books has been failing multiple generations of Witness adolescents
Growing up a Jehovah’s Witness is an experience that has shaped me in innumerable ways. To be fair, Watchtower’s influence on my young life did give me some benefit. Through my studies I developed reading skills and a genuine love of language at a young age.
I wasn’t afraid to speak in front of my class or to strangers, because I’d been doing talks at the Kingdom Hall and presentations in the field ministry for years. I even formed a few friendships that have lasted throughout my lifetime with peers I met at meetings. Aside from those few things though, I believe Watchtower’s teachings and policies did very little to prepare me for my adult life.
In 1989, Watchtower released the first edition of the book Questions Young People Ask Answers That Work, or the “YPA” book. I still remember being 7 years old and getting my copy at the District Convention. I was so excited to have a book “just for kids” that I could read.
Per my usual methods, I started perusing the book as soon as we got in the car – the pictures and chapter titles getting my attention straight away. There were chapters on parental conflict, time management, and even the great taboo of masturbation, all written with children and adolescents in mind. Though some of the topics were embarrassing, at that time I really believed the book would be able to help me answer any questions I had.
Instead, the opposite turned out to be true. The book was nothing but a propaganda piece with contents that did nothing but attempt to bolster my paranoia of the outside world.
All it did was sweep any real problems I might be having under the rug by offering the one-size-fits-all answer of prayer and guidance from elders for each and every one of them. Though it lacked any true substance, the YPA book soon became the go-to parenting guide at my house – a convenient tool for my parents to turn to when I was going through my teenage years, and a collection of often foolish advice that offered me no real support.
Looking back, I can see how Watchtower’s suggestions in this book and from the podium failed me in my life. The biggest problems for me lay in the areas of dating and marriage. By following the admonition to date with the intention of marriage and constantly using a chaperone, both in person and over the phone, at age 18 I found myself wed to a virtual stranger.
The truth is, though we had the blessing of congregation elders and our parents, my husband and I had never been allowed the time or privacy to get to know each other. At such a young age, frustration with real-life issues mixed with twisted Witness views on male headship, and the clashing of our personalities, led to the relationship becoming physically violent.
After a few attempts at fixing it, including getting some bad advice from the elders, and a situation requiring police intervention and a stay at a battered women’s shelter, I left Watchtower at age 19. Disfellowshipping and shunning soon followed.
The answers didn’t work.
My life experience and that of many of my peers leads me to wonder: Does Watchtower really care about kids?
I recently became aware of a second volume to the book of my youth, and decided to read the PDF download from JW.org. In it I find more of the same misguided nonsense that I grew up with: Witness children being counseled to avoid the world and follow Watchtower’s advice at all costs. Boys groomed to be family heads, while girls are encouraged to take a lesser role.
Reading the bible, praying and speaking to the elders are not the answers to every problem life throws at you
Reading the bible, praying and speaking to the elders are not the answers to every problem life throws at you
Education still takes the backseat to the preaching work. Homosexuality and its urges are described as “wrong desires,” and compared to rage as something that can be quelled. Youths are told to avoid “double lives” by limiting contact with school friends. Only one small section is devoted to eating disorders. And much to my dismay, the dating advice is the same: never be alone together and only date with the intention to marry.
This new volume even includes a questionnaire for both sexes where the man is to evaluate how well his intended “shows submissiveness” when he is deciding to pursue her. There is very little mention of seeking professional or legal help for any issue. The overall solution being offered to all problems remains the same: prayer and reliance on the guidance of congregation elders.
With such counsel being given, is it any wonder that Witness children worldwide are leaving the religion in hoards?
According to a 2008 study from Pew Research, only 37% of people raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses continue with the religion as adults. When you consider the many (a number of whom I’ve privately corresponded with) who stay just to keep the community and familial ties intact, one has to wonder how many stay true believers from childhood on?
It turns out, Watchtower isn’t so good at “inculcating” children as Deuteronomy 6:6-8 instructs. Instead, the organization seem to be setting kids up for failure and their often-inevitable exit from the religion.
So, where does that leave current Jehovah’s Witness children and teens? Between indoctrinated parents and Watchtower offering so little in the way of true guidance, many find themselves feeling overwhelmed and alone.
Fortunately, times have changed, and there are now a variety of ways to get help and direction. In developed lands, everything from help with continuing education, to health services, is easier to access than ever before. A simple Google search can provide links to a number of resources.
Most schools have a counselor or administrator that is willing to listen and offer guidance for life issues. There are toll-free hot-lines and community health programs that can help answer questions or simply provide a confidential way to discuss problems that may be troubling you. And of course, anyone who feels their safety is in danger can always contact a law enforcement officer.
Of course, the answers are rarely easy, but for many Jehovah’s Witness youths, just knowing real guidance is available is important. To any young personreading this article, please know: there really is a possibility for happiness outside of Watchtower. The struggles of life can be overcome, and true freedom from Watchtower’s undue influence is attainable.
jeni-signature4
Helpful Links:
United States:
National Eating Disorder Association (NEDA) http://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/find-help-support
1-800-931-2237
National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI)https://www.nami.org/#
Helpline : 800-950-6264
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration (SAMHSA)
National Helpline:1-800-662-HELP (4357)
TTY: 1-800-487-4889
Website: www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline
Suicide Prevention Lifeline
1-800-273-TALK (8255)
TTY: 1-800-799-4889
Website: www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org
US Department of Education
http://www.ed.gov/
United Kingdom:
Beat (Beating Eating Disorders)
https://www.b-eat.co.uk/
Helpline 0345 634 1414 Youthline 0345 634 7650
SANE Mental Health Helpline
0300 304 7000http://www.sane.org.uk/what_we_do/support/helpline/
Student Finance
https://www.gov.uk/browse/education/student-finance
National Union of Students
http://www.nus.org.uk/en/advice/money-and-funding/can-i-get-higher-education-funding-in-the-uk/
References:
http://www.pewforum.org/2008/02/01/chapter-2-changes-in-americans-religious-affiliation/
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/teenagers/young-people-ask-volume-2/#?insight[search_id]=acdd11fd-1927-4a2a-a8ce-3ab44e68aa12&insight[search_result_index]=1
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/teenagers/young-people-ask-volume-1/#?insight[search_id]=70e41d46-f1ea-4443-9c15-1225cb05300d&insight[search_result_index]=2
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243 Responses to The Friday Column: Questions Young People Ask – Answers That Don’t Work
Newer Comments →
Scrubmaster says:
January 8, 2016 at 1:12 pm
Jeni – well written and great points. The advice on marriage is spot on. Especially dating for marriage and dating in groups. For the most part a person will always act well in a group. I mean if a person can not act properly in a group setting….well we all know that is some one to run away from and not marry. But often times people only show who they really are in private one on one settings.
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Markie says:
January 8, 2016 at 1:16 pm
Don’t mean to insult you but I always thought the youth book and the Family Life books were for simpletons. I always thought they were written by old men that hated women. Never read them and never had my kids read them. And yes I am still active.
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ruthlee says:
January 8, 2016 at 1:29 pm
Yes I dutifully read the original red edition. Didn’t stop the suicide attempts. God help me I dutifully studied this garbage with my own offspring (sorry kids). No it didn’t work in my day and it does not work today. I think they hate kids anyway so delight in giving pontificating advice to dupe and breed paranoia. Such a simplistic world view makes the jdub youth inadequate for the real world .but then again they don’t live in the real world or have proper jobs so maybe the advice works. Unless a child grows up and squanders their youth in pointless pursuits for the borg they are labelled weak , evil, worldy blah blah . Children are never forgiven for being young and fresh and wonderful.Just for being young there is always pressure to perform.ruthlee
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Art Fern says:
January 15, 2016 at 5:45 am
ruthlee, I wish I had your ability to get through the junk and make such spot on comments that I find tremendously insightful. I am a verbose pig, it takes most people 50 words to make a point, 500 for me.
You write in such a direct and CONSISE way, hitting on all the points need to be made. You should have been a writer, a newspaper reporter. And for all I know maybe you are. Color me envious
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Velvia Blue says:
January 8, 2016 at 1:46 pm
great essay. I was reared as a jw and believed that sex was only with married couples. the youth book advised engaged couples to talk about sex and what their needs were but they weren’t allowed to participate. So many of my peers got married too young because they were so desperate for sex. Only to find they were incompatible. And whats wrong with trying marijuana? The youth book didnt give me a good start in life. far from it
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James says:
January 11, 2016 at 1:40 am
I undestand your feelings, but if you say that sex is ok before marriage you are discarting the Bible a priori. If, as a Christian, you accept the Bible, then sex in a sense of fornication is wrong. Let us try to see the issue here: The YPBm youth book and family life book were written in a crapy, mosogenistic style…BUT what about the advise of the holy scriptures about not to fornicate? How do you feel about it? Should Christians accept the modern standards of living and abandon the Bible prohibition of sex outside marriage?
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Cedars says:
January 11, 2016 at 1:58 am
James – I strongly recommend you read “God and Sex: What the Bible Really Says” by Michael Coogan. It will give you a broader understanding of how the bible approaches sex.
“Fornication” is a word that basically refers to sexual impropriety, such as prostitution. It does not encompass all sex between unmarried people – although that is the meaning often given to it by fundamentalist Christians.
If sex between unmarried persons were truly frowned upon by God, then Jesus would not exist. When Ruth “uncovered the feet of Boaz” at Ruth 3:7, it wasn’t to give him a foot massage.
If you want to promote your personal definition of “fornication,” that’s entirely up to you – but please respect the religious neutrality policy of this website by not using our pages to espouse your private beliefs.
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James says:
January 11, 2016 at 2:20 am
Thanks Cedars, I am not promoting anything except what most of us know about the Bible’s prohibition of fornication. I am not a fundamental christian either.
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Cedars says:
January 11, 2016 at 2:39 am
That’s good to know! :)
And just because most people know something, that doesn’t make it correct.
Holy Connoli says:
January 11, 2016 at 3:20 am
@Cedars. Hi Cedars. I am a regular commenter on here and I agree and enjoy most all 99% of the comments. They are good for all of us to have this open forum. I just wanted to say that your response to James about promoting his religious Ideas I feel are incorrect. I don’t think he was promoting his beliefs but just raising a question for people to ponder and discuss. There are Many people on here some religious, some not, who promote or at least freely give their opinion of God, the bible and whether God exists or not etc. Some even say how they switched from being a JW to being Born again and quote scripture quite often and even promote their new faith to a more or less degree. So in fairness to James I felt he was respectful and cordial and not pushy at all or trying to sell his religion. It was just his view of what he felt the bile says about fornication. It was a question raised for debate if we want to engage in it.
One thing we all enjoy about this site is the fact that we can discuss things openly and we do not all need to agree or disagree on things.
He was giving an opinion is the way I saw it.
Personally, I felt he did it within the frame work of this web site and the rules that are here.
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Cedars says:
January 11, 2016 at 3:30 am
I happily apologize to James if he feels I jumped on him somewhat. One of the downsides to commenting in writing rather than in person is that it’s difficult to express yourself forcefully with, perhaps, the twinkle in your eye that would otherwise soften your words.
That said, I don’t think there is any need to remind ourselves what Watchtower has to say about sex. Most people who visit this website are well aware of it. In that context, James’ comment came across more as “Watchtower may be wrong about everything else, but they are right about fornication.” My comment, which drew James’ attention to information he may have been hitherto unaware of regarding the bible and sex, was designed to counterbalance that remark. In other words, Watchtower has had decades to get its narrow-minded views across. There is no need for us to use these pages to do their work for them by giving their fundamentalist, blinkered approach undue deference.
And for the record, I never said James breached our posting guidelines. I was merely intervening to make sure he didn’t.
anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:36 pm
I agree with Cedars. Discussing general concepts, like the existence of God or Jesus, is one thing, but talking about personal views on things like “fornication”, is just that, PERSONAL. I would head that under “Personal Morality” or “Personal Ethics”. When & with whom someone has sex, is a lifestyle choice, & as long as it’s between consenting adults, with proper precautions taken, no one gets hurt. Like Cedars said, we are all, all too familiar with the bible’s doctrines & WT’s dogma. We’re not children. We’ve had enough of those kinds of lectures, Thank you very much. Let the adults make up their own minds. Just thought I’d throw in my 2 cents’ worth. Thanx
ForestDaughter says:
January 8, 2016 at 2:26 pm
I remember when that book came out and we read it at the study group. I didn’t really take too much notice of it tbh, as by then I was starting to have nagging doubts about the watchtower and their so-called advice. As an adult convert I used to eagerly await the ‘literature’ and devour everything, but it soon became obvious that every single problem all had exactly the same advice, exactly as you said…’prayer and reliance on the guidance of congregation elders’. I found myself groaning each time. I wish I’d have known the saying then that if you do the same thing every time you will always get the same result. Silly me for thinking that there’d be an actual gem of an answer.
I’m appalled about the questionnaire you mentioned that a young man should look for his intended’s submission, which begs the question how that affects the young women reading it. To be submissive to that extent sets up girls to be abused and ready to accept any kind of treatment, or at least be prepared to put up with an awful lot, as well as not learning how to have boundaries.
I’m only glad that a lot of youngsters are seeing through that, albeit onky because they were treated so badly like yourself Jeni. Great article. :)
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Tammy says:
January 8, 2016 at 2:35 pm
I did not grow up in this religion but i was in it for 17 years. I was single for few years then navigated through dating / marriage for the rest of my JW life.
There was no resources for identifying abuse before and during marriage. There was no resources for how to deal with trauma after marriage.
As a result, I still suffer from trauma and PTSD.
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anonymous4 says:
January 8, 2016 at 3:09 pm
Very insightful article. I agree, all WT ever offers for any challenges in life is simple, mindless cookie-cutter advice. In fact, as far as PRACTICAL, REAL-LIFE wisdom goes, IMHO, 99.9% of the bible is useless. (Most people I know, who believe the bible is full of practical wisdom, have never read it.) Also, I remember a book study (not sure if it was YPA, maybe it was the previous “Your Youth” book) where 1 paragraph explained how sex works. I felt so embarrassed for the poor reader who had to get thru that paragraph. lol As far as that whole “male headship” principle goes (which of course is not unique to the JW cult), any man who needs to rely on that concept as some kind of “crutch”, is not a man. That dogma was created by, & for, p*ssies, idiots, cowards, & bullies who are incapable of participating in a 1-on-1, EQUAL relationship with another human being. More crappy, UNwise, destructive advice from WT!!!
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Markie says:
January 8, 2016 at 5:00 pm
I think the men that wrote those books were or are latent homosexuals. I think they secretly hate women. I never understood how they could publish such crap.
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 12:16 am
I agree. In fact, I would say all mainstream religions are misogynistic, some to insane extremes.
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James says:
January 11, 2016 at 1:33 am
…in a sense I agree. The misogenistic approach of the legacy left from late 1800s had been felt in the publications up to late 1980s. I feel, thouhgh, that the present day articles are somewhat different in style and with a bit of parental input from other sources offsprings may receive a balance advice.
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Art Fern says:
January 15, 2016 at 6:43 am
Markie, you may not know it but you are seriously 100% correct. Remember Ted Haggard (The Last Temptation of Ted http://www.gq.com/story/pastor-Ted-haggard) the leader of the 50 million US Evangelicals? The guy was a mega church (25,000 members) head pastor (married father of 5) living in Colorado Spings. He was huge in the anti-gay, Focus on the Family, group lobbying the US and state legislative leaders to not pass any kind of gay rights bills. (I’m just telling the story, not promoting a Pro or Con position, hear that VoiceofTruth?)
Pastor Haggard was mentioned in rumors as a gay man who hired gay prostitutes when he was out-of-town in Denver. He also bought and smoked meth with the prostitutes. You can imagine how outraged he became when asked about the rumors attacting the questioner since he was THE point man fighting evil homosexuality. After all he spoke with Pres Bush every Monday morning being a big time Pres of the Evangelical movement and as anti-gay as any human.
Well now, it turned out all the rumors were completely true. He was dismissed from the huge church he founded and went into some goofy pray-away-the-gay program here in the Phoenix area. To the guy on the street how could the most important gay basher in this country, be gay?
There was even a US Senator from Idaho that was caught at the Minneapolis airport trying to pick-up a cop, he thought was a gay man, in a sting operation. This man was also very anti-gay.
I suspect those who scream and condemn the loudest may also be gay. Many studies have shown the same thing. Weird huh?
Read this paper for more info-X3oDMTByc2tqNmZuBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw–
I don’t know about you, but I have never been too sure about Stephen Lett.
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Art Fern says:
January 15, 2016 at 7:17 am
Whoops my links blew up, lost in translation. These are the links to studies I was writing about.
Those who scream out the loudest against gay right, may be gay
Studies and Articles—-
http://www.landman-psychology.com/Homophobia%20Associated%20with%20Homosexual%20Arousal.pdf
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/abn/105/3/440/
http://news.yahoo.com/study-homophobes-may-hidden-homosexuals-194806808.html;_ylt=A0SO81YRf9lSxGYANTzBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTByc2tqNmZuBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw–
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/study-proves-homophobes-are-nothing-more-than-closet-homosexuals-what-do-you-think/question-140910/?link=ibaf&q=homosexuals+who+are+homophobic
Winston Smith says:
January 15, 2016 at 9:22 am
@Art Fern,
I agree: “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”
The biggest gay-banshers are either closet homosexuals themselves or have strong homosexual feelings they are supressing.
In fact, I found that in the organization you could often determine what an elder’s vices were simply by watching for the things he most strongly condemns. I saw it time and again:
-An elder slams internet porn all the time: he’s addicted to it.
-An elder often speaks out about heavy drinking: he’s a weekend drunk.
-An elder condemns adulters vehemently: he’s got a mistress and kids by her.
Although we cannot say this is a fact in every case, I’ve seen a number of cases where it holds true. If they are not currently engaging in the practice, there is a strong desire toward it, which is why they speak out so adamantly against it.
WS
JBob says:
January 8, 2016 at 2:42 pm
Very well researched and very well written, and this article shows examination not only of issues but also resolutions to assist in moving forward. No one can say this is “an axe to grind”; it’s a great post to assist acclimating to the world after Bethel or JW’s.
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Jarred Booth says:
January 8, 2016 at 2:42 pm
Although I can’t throw all the blame on Watchtower, I think their advice ruined all my relationships on one level or another. Usually the problem wasn’t the woman I was dating, it was me. I just took the religion too seriously for any normal relationship to develop.
But I certainly wasn’t prepared for dating after I left, and this I can place most of the blame on the religion. For one, being a single brother, especially a ministerial servant and pioneer, it was a lot easier for me to find a girlfriend, because there were so many single sisters and fewer single brothers. After I left, I slowly came to the realization that I was no longer the big fish I used to be. As it turns out, the average woman isn’t all that interested in a grown man who never went to college because he was devoted to a brainwashing cult. (Who knew?) Especially in the college city I moved to.
But I’ve gradually removed all Watchtower teachings from my mind (including their advice on dating), gotten a real career in science, and am living a much happier life. Great article. One I never thought I’d read but rings so true.
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anonymous4 says:
January 8, 2016 at 3:21 pm
ALL WT “advice” (READ: “propaganda”) is designed to alienate & isolate their members from the real world, thus consolidating their grip.
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Jarred Booth says:
January 8, 2016 at 10:19 pm
Yup. Their “advice” works great, as long as you plan to never leave the organization, never get a good education, never fall in love with a non-Witness, never befriend a non-Witness, never question anything the Governing Body says or does, never this, never that, never live the life you’d truly like to live. Did I cover everything?
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Meredith J says:
January 9, 2016 at 4:17 am
I think you did.
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Oubliette says:
January 8, 2016 at 3:57 pm
Jeni, what a great article.
In particular, I appreciate that you end by acknowledging that many problems do not have easy, simple solutions and you followed up with practical suggestions. There are qualified people that CAN help young people navigate the oft treacherous teenage years, and they are rarely–if ever–found in the Kingdom Hall.
Well done!
Oubliette
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Pow says:
January 8, 2016 at 4:11 pm
…I think most young witnesses are completely unprepared for marriage, and really life for that matter. And what woefully little statistics that have emerged attest to that fact.
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Holy Connoli says:
January 8, 2016 at 7:49 pm
@POW. I have a good one for you here. I was a new JW barley 20 years old.I was excited to having found the “truth”. I met a newly converted single JW lady 12 years older than me! She had a child already. We sort of hit it off but I kept saying wow well she is beautiful but I am only 20 years old and she doesn’t work and nI don’t have a real Job etc.
Well, we went out a few times in groups and after about 2-3 months the pressure from the Elders and
CONG started saying hey you guys are dating so you need to get married! I was SCARED but the pressure was thee so within about 4-5 months from meeting her we got married! My father a NON JW told me Son, Do not get married it is to much responsibility for you and you have no full time work etc. Good Loving fatherly advice. So we are on our honeymoon in Europe at a JW assembly and
I see her talking to some GB member or special speaker in a deep conversation and I ask her what is all that about? So she said Oh I needed to talk to a SPIRITUAL older man and I needed help> What kind of help do you need I asked? She said well, I am still in love with this other Brother! He is so wonderful! Well, that made me feel real good. 20 years old only a JW for a year with a 32 year old JW lady who is in love with another Man and I am married like 2-3 weeks now.The elders would say oh don’t worry about the age difference bc in a few years Armageddon will be here and we will all be the same age and be young in body and mind!
I bit hook, line and sinker.
It has been a very rough road and bc I am a good guy somehow I made the marriage work the best I could but had major, major, Major problems over the years. I knew I made a bad choice but I was afraid of being DF’d if I left her. Somehow I survived. Her love was and is and always will be the WT org over me and everything else in our lives. Currently we do not live together but I attribute the mistake to the policies of the WT org
on dating and forcing unprepared people into marriage. It is a devastating arrangement.
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Meredith J says:
January 9, 2016 at 4:33 am
Holy Connoli, that’s a very sad story. I have personally seen similar examples more times than I can remember of men and women marrying for the wrong reasons. Our kids married their spouses without ever having dated anyone else. The Witnesses make the whole dating thing such a pain, as parents you are so glad when they decide to get married that the headache is over of worrying about anyone in the congregation seeing them alone together. How ridiculous.
When I was in the world I dated a number of guys before I got serious with someone and then we lived together for two years before we got married. I am not promoting that for anyone who wants to lead a Christian lifestyle, but I was sure who I wanted to marry by then and we have stayed together ever since.
Marriage should in no way be taken lightly as it is far too painful if it’s done too hastily. Sure sometimes it works and everyone should try and make it work as it is so important. Anyway, so sorry you had such pathetic advice from so called wise elders.
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Holy Connoli says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:47 am
@Meridith J. I try to look at the upside to a bad situation.She had a child who I adopted and love and I also had 2 other sons from her DESPITE her not wanting any children bc the end was so near and she just wanted to PREACH! I am serious and even to this day that is all she wants to do. It has always been frustrating to me bc the house was always messy and nothing was organized,shopping was never consistent and bills would pile up even though I worked and made decent money and I al;ways believed in paying bills on time and doing things right.My Father always taught me to have little or no debt
and pay bills on time. Common sense right. She never would do that and it cause a lot of issues. Since she did not work I just wanted a normal home life and I could never get it. It was obvious to me the reason was and is bc if you spend all your time knocking on doors and being a Gypsy magazine sales person and you are SO FOCUSED on
Pioneering and meetings and trying to SAVE all the WORLDLY people something has to give and what gave was a Normal Marriage and normal household. She hated to work and I believe used it as a excuse to pioneer. Last APril I invited her to go to Hawaii and she said oh yes, let’s go. So the plans were made and I was ready to pay for it and about 2 weeks before we were to leave she said I am so sorry I have an assembly that week and cannot go? I said can you rearrange it to go to another one, it isn’t like there will never be another JW assembly lol. Oh no sorry , I have a 5 minute experience I HAVE to give about the Joys of pioneering! This is just one experience there are hundreds like that. How many couples would be overjoyed to take a vacation to Hawaii together? She would rather wander the streets like a Gypsy magazine salesperson to get her “HOURS” in than make her family/husband happy. There would be days even weeks when I would keep asking her to bring home a certain brand of coffer I like or cetain kind of fruit for my smoothie or I needed a few shirts from the dry cleaners to be picked up etc and 90% of the time I would end up doing it myself bc she would “forget” or get to busy in the Field service e or some other JW event.
Rarely would there be a dinner on the table. Maybe 3 times a month but she would eat out almost everyday as she was out in FS and maybe bring me home a 1/2 of leftover Sandwich or left over meal she did not finish. I am not kidding about this stuff I am saying. The Watchtower came first always. I would get so upset at all this time she was devoting to her “bible studies” with so called love bombing
and ALWAYS had time for her STUDIES and WT events but nothing for me or the family. When I became a fairly successful business person she saw that as an opportunity to spend more money on her things and herself bc now sh thought I have money and I am going to spend it!
When I first married her I had worked previously for about 3 years part time unloading trucks at the shipping docks in Oakland California. As a prudent young man I had saved up over $5500 and this was in 1974 or so. After we got married I shared with her that I had saved up a little money and maybe we should think about getting a small home instead of paying rent. She said How much do you have? I said I saved over $5500 dollars.
She said Oh My God!
I don’t know anyone that has that kind of money, Let’s spend it now before Armageddon comes bc the bible says they will be throwing the gold and the Silver into the streets and money will be worthless! That is her mind set and still is to this day.
The end is near let’s do nothing except pound on doors.
The bottom line is the WT way for dating and marriage is ridiculous and look at all the divorces in the JW religion.ALl the unhappy marriages are proof and how many just stay together for economic reasons or fear of leaving the WT and family things.
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Art Fern says:
January 9, 2016 at 6:24 am
As far as living together, I have moved 180 degrees vs my younger self. I’m not thinking about a couple that go out a couple of times and think it would be “neat” to try living together. What I had in mind is a couple that have dated for some time and love being with each other no matter what they’re doing. If you are exclusive and thinking about marriage living together might be extremely beneficial. You can find out if you are compatible in all areas or if their is a problem of selfishness, domination, desire to control or sexual incompatibility in a lower risk situation. I married at 22 to someone the same age, the first sexual experience we had was the night of the wedding, and it was horrible. Weird since she was a little on the wild, pushing the boundaries, side. She hated innercourse and no matter what I or doctors tried, nothing changed, yet she was desperate to have kids. She would take her temp and when she thought she might be fertile she would call for me to get it over, no kissing, hugging, sweet nothings unless “move your head, you’re blocking the TV” or “hurry, will you just concentrate” count. So after 7 years and 2 kids she filed for divorce. For all the money and pain, loneliness and desparately missing my kids, it wasn’t worth it. Had we lived together, I would have discovered that she never intended to work while I got my degree, meaning I worked two jobs and went to college never getting much sleep, and that she and her mother wanted kids badly, as well as finding out that she hated sex outside my playing the role of a Drone Honeybee. Nothing hurts like rejection and waiting for years, being good, to only find lead not gold at the end of the rainbow. When someone was as she, also being cut out are all those nice things that might be called foreplay or even affection, so there was no kissing or hugging ever even if doing so had nothing to do with intimacy, for fear doing so could later lead to sex. That’s my point of view anyway, I would never want anyone else to go thru such experiences.
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Chiafade says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:18 am
Damn that was depressing. I need a drink.
Seriously though I’m sorry to hear that. It shows the serious flaw in JW thinking when it comes to compatible relationships. Many JWs think that being compatible means that you’re both witnesses. That’s it, that’s all it takes to make a good marriage. This terrible logic has led many into unhappy marriages.
VoiceofTruth says:
January 10, 2016 at 4:22 pm
Art Fern, you are an F’ing idiot, just stop posting your filthy drivel. Jehovah gave us directions on how to live your life, ignore him and die, it’s up to you, just stop telling other people to ignore the Bible, to live a life that is pleasing to Satan. If you are so weak you can’t control yourself fine, just keep your miserable thoughts to yourself. I will follow Jehovah I will laugh my head off at you and people like you who have your bodies torn to pieces and burned. You are like the disobedient who died in the flood refusing to listen. Why does everyone have to be happy all the time? At the Armmageton you won’t be laughing. Stop posting your comments dumb ass
Caroline says:
January 10, 2016 at 4:59 pm
@VoiceofTruth, to use the kind of language that you used in your comment shows that you also ignoring the Bible. Since when do Witnesses say “F’ing”? When I was going to meetings, we weren’t even allowed to say gosh, golly or gee because it was short for God. We weren’t allowed to even say freaking because it was too close to the word that you used. Do you really think that by leaving out the middle letters that you weren’t using “filthy” language?
You say you will follow Jehovah? I don’t think you are following Jehovah, unless it’s common for JW men now days to use that kind of language.
What Art Fern said in his comment, was not filthy, but your comment was. Even calling him a dumb ass shows that you are not following the JW religion, that is, unless that is the way JW men talk now days. I can’t imagine that you would use that kind of language at the Kingdom Hall.
It is so funny that you will laugh your head off when Art Fern and people like him die at Armageddon by having our bodies torn to pieces and burned. That comment shows what a psychopath you are. If you remember what the Bible says, it says that God doesn’t want anybody to be destroyed but you must be better than God, right?
By the way, “VoiceofTruth”, can you describe Jehovah for us? What does he look like and how did he produce all that’s on the earth out of thin air? If you can come up with that little bit of information, I might believe in him.
Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 5:08 pm
Voice of truth,
Spoken like a true, mindless Watchtower drone. Are you being facetious?
Otherwise I’d have to ask what you are doing on an apostate site? Careful, the imminent war of Armageddon may strike at any time and what if at that point you are on this site? Guilt by association you know. I mean how will Jah’s Angels be able to differentiate you from the rest of us sinners!
WS
Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 8:40 pm
Sorry gang, I didn’t make a friend with my comment at least not with Voice of Truth. I guess I hit someone’s sensitive nerve. Now and then I see this type of response in the comment section following other Apostate channels, and you wonder if people read and think about what they have written as there is some hypocracy in trashing another person. We must be doing some good because of the disgust and defensiveness faithful (who shouldn’t have any interest in Apostate channels) express.
I know I get personal in writing about my own experiences, maybe I should just be more vague about the circumstances, but I’m pretty open and maybe others who have had tough marriages can see that they aren’t alone but part of a large group who tried to follow the rules and were hurt as a result. I apologize for the persons response it was pretty vulgar and angry, I crossed a line from his point of view. I don’t want to seem as if I’m advising or suggesting that others break any rules, rather I was just telling my story for whatever it’s worth.
Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 9:22 pm
@Art Fern
You should not have to apologize to anyone. Your comments were valid, heartfelt, and on-topic. If certain people cannot handle hearing the truth, then this site is not for them. I have personally appreciated all your comments.
WS
anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 12:19 am
Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot handle candid sex talk.
Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 6:16 am
@Meredith J
“Our kids married their spouses without ever having dated anyone else”
As a JW teen, I lived a double life and dated a few “worldly” girls in high school. Although I went through quite a bit of mental anguish having to constantly keep up the lies to my parents and the congregation members, I think the experience of having dated a few other people before I settled down was a good one.
I kept seeing one of the girls from school for a few months after high school graduation, but eventually broke it off and committed myself to the JW Org. What a mistake! Looking back, I realize that she really cared about me and I regret breaking her heart for a cult.
My wife also lived the double life as a teen and dated, so although we married young, at least we had some experience dating. We always got along fairly well in our marriage – until I awoke from the cult delusion. Ever since that time the relationship has been strained.
WS
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Pow says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:10 pm
Sorry about your story,what a bummer, but I feel that it has a common thread…all of us have the potential of making a bad decision, but what happens to many of us JW’S is really others heavily influence our choice, then take credit for it when it seems to be a good one, and completely disavow us/it when it’s not..even decisions like selling home, quitting job, moving to area of need,reaching out and so on…Basically it’s a matter of faith and trusting in prayer versus counting the cost. …we use one line if it’s success and another for failure.
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:14 pm
Where do all these crazy women come from???
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:16 pm
@ Art Fern
Just thinking, maybe ur Ex is a lesbian.
Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 6:23 am
@A4
The JW cult seems to attract those who are not quite stable.
(and if you are mentally stable when you join up, it can and will do a number on you as well!)
WS
anonymous4 says:
January 10, 2016 at 8:01 pm
@ Winston Smith
LOL U got it! In fact, their Recruiting Slogan should be: “If you’re not quite stable, this is the place for you!” lol
Caroline says:
January 8, 2016 at 6:14 pm
The men who write for the Watchtower, for the most part never had children and were the product of parents who were brought up in the religion decades ago with the idea that women and children were meant to be seen and not heard and had to be “obedient and submissive” to the man of the house.
JW men think that the most perfect wife would be a very young Jehovah’s Witness girl who has never lived on her own and has grown up under the thumb of their father so that they’d always be “submissive” to their new husband because once they have lived on their own, they develop a more independent attitude so they want them young so they are used to being under the thumb of their father and haven’t developed an independent attitude.
This kind of girl can be “beaten” into submission and who is going to believe her without witnesses to the abuse and even then, when this girl is beaten by her husband, the Society’s answer to that abuse is that the girl did something to provoke it, which is in all their literature and has been for decades and decades.
That is the mind set of JW men and boys. It’s never their fault when they beat on their wives as the wife wasn’t being submissive and so it is always blamed on the girl. It doesn’t matter whether she is telling the truth or not, she won’t be believed, no matter how bad the abuse. It is a religion where women are treated as nothing as compared to the man.
That treatment of women comes straight from the Hebrew Scriptures, just the same as slavery was promoted in the Hebrew Scriptures and even in the Greek Scriptures, women were to be quiet and if they had any questions were to “ask their husbands”.
What that produced in these males was the idea in their heads that no woman was going to tell them what to do. They expected that whatever they wanted from their wife and children was owed to them, simply because they had a penis.
The Samuel Herd talk tells it all and that is the way most all JW men think, and that is that women’s brains are smaller and they just aren’t equipped to be the head of the house. In other words, women are like little children who need an “adult” man in their life to tell them when to get up and when to eat and what to do and not “argue” with their man. They are to cook and clean and take care of their man. Herd said that a woman’s role is to take care of their man.
It is living in the dark ages, for women in the Watchtower Society and that is because it’s men who run it and all those men are living in a fantasy world and unfortunately millions of women have bought into being brainwashed into going along with being mistreated like that because they think God is directing the Organization. Even after being beaten by their husbands, it is the wife who will go begging the husband to “forgive” them for making them hurt her.
What that does to a woman is to make her a servant or slave to a man for the rest of her life. Men may like the idea of this unpaid servant/sex slave who can’t escape unless they are willing to be disfellowshipped for adultery but what these women are really thinking to themselves is that they can’t wait for this guy to die. That is the kind of marriage that the Watchtower Society produces.
Women in marriages like this are not happy. They suffer in silence or get out and suffer being shunned for leaving the marriage. It’s a trap that very few JW women know has happened to them until they get stuck in a marriage like that and don’t know how to get out.
Nobody knows what a marriage mate is like until you actually live with them but then it’s too late, that is, if you are a JW. “Worldy” people can get a divorce and remarry without being shunned.
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 12:33 am
It really is like the Dark Ages, and a trap. Once married, the only way out is divorce, whether due to adultery or not, then disfellowshipping (unless she is lucky enough that her husband commits adultery, or dies).
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Winston Smith says:
January 9, 2016 at 12:36 pm
I knew a family in a nearby congregation where the father was the presiding overseer (back when they had that title still). He was a major philanderer and had fits of rage at home, beating his wife, children, and even their pets.
When this all came out it was a huge embarrassment for the local organization. The wife, a baptized sister, was able to get her baptism annulled on the grounds that she had made the decision under duress, under threat of physical violence from her husband. A terrible situation due to the archaic gender roles promoted by this organization. At least the wife was able to get away from him and the organization.
WS
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Chiafade says:
January 9, 2016 at 1:46 pm
It really is like a trap isn’t it. There are conditions placed on the love in a marriage among the witnesses. A young witness is too naive to see that though. They will idealize witness marriage as “the best kind of marriage” which has led so many into BAD BAD relationships.
Growing up in NYC I would see the sisters fawn over the bethelites. One sister who’s mission in life was to go to bethel and marry a bethelite got her wish. The bethelite who was a country boy just wanted to marry a city sister. It was perfect. She got what she wanted and so did he.
Fast forward to a year later. She didn’t make the cut as a bethelite and as a result they both had to leave. They moved to an inner city TINY apartment because they were broke. She was disappointed in HIM because he no longer held the bethelite title and neither did she. The result was a clearly unhappy marriage.
I’ve witnessed brother do the same thing with that pioneer sister they always wanted. This idea has been further exasperated by Tony Morris’ idiotic statement about men who are 23 and not servants in the congregation being bad marriage material.
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Winston Smith says:
January 9, 2016 at 10:20 pm
In reality, 23 and not a servant might mean that they are more suitable as marriage material. LOL.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:00 pm
So now ToMo is not only a judge of fashion, but also a judge of character? Is there no end to their talents? LOL
Will says:
January 11, 2016 at 8:03 am
@ chiafade
I’m in NYC also and it was disgusting how these woman acted around Bethelites. One “sister” (not a Bethel groupie) said these boys are just rejects from from their hometowns and aren’t a big deal there. Anyway, I remember an older “sister” would want everyone to pay for the Bethelites when we went out to eat. It got to the point where I said I wasn’t down with because I had to pay for myself and my wife. It was like social pressure and it got ridiculous. Witnesses don’t worship Mary or Jesus, but they worship Bethelites and the Organization, no difference.
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JBob says:
January 13, 2016 at 1:28 pm
It shows how desperate they are for “leaders”. In the old days, even if you were 20-young and had been baptized at tween years, most elder bodies wouldn’t nominate said man for a post, because 1) he’s a walking gland of testosterone, and 2) lack of seasoning as an adult.
It will not be surprising when this wave of young MS and elders are caught in affairs of the heart / testicles and ego-based rulings.
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Anonymous says:
January 10, 2016 at 7:42 am
I hear these incidents of verbal and physical abuse of wives happens more frequently than one would think, and in some cases elders put the blame on the wife, but I have heard of opposite cases where clear and level-headed elders see an abusive man as abusive, but it usually meant the husband was letting other areas of care for children and wife slide, as well.
It was a great eye-opener to see how “non-JW” husbands and wives managed egalitarian relationships, and for a real horizon broadening when I met my first gay and lesbian couples who didn’t have a rule book or set expectations regarding roles. Yes, there was conflict, but because there was a solid foundation for a relationship, they were able to negotiate and reach an equilibrium that sustained their relationships.
Another note, on the adultery thing, I am hearing a one-sided deal here as though women don’t “wander”? In particular since the script went that he was entitled to fulfillment but she was not–at least, that’s how the literature wrote it, even if the experience of most couples was opposite. It left a lingering question in my mind whether the typical JW wife ever experienced the “O”?
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ruthlee says:
January 11, 2016 at 2:42 am
I doubt they do seeing how miserable they are ! ruthlee
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Ejecting to Sanity says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:53 pm
Always so interesting (sickening) to witness their demeaning attitude toward women while out of the other side of their mouth, they supposedly will respect women as annointed judges and rulers with Jesus in heaven. Or maybe there will b alot of cooking and cleaning to b done there too.
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Bati says:
January 8, 2016 at 8:19 pm
Great Article! I agree with you, the YPA book didnt provide any answers. I grew up as a jw and remember that assembly. My parents instead of giving me a sex education told me to read YPA.
I was very depressed because I was going through many physical and emotional changes as a young adult and needed guidance.
The high school I attended provided free professional sex education to all the students, but needed the parents approval. Of course my parents objected because the teachings werent biblical!
The lack of knowledge led to me being naive and inocent. At 21 I was manipulated by a man that was 12 years older than me. I ended up being pregnant and expelled. Received no moral support from my parents and told me that I had to leave the house. No job, pregnant! they were told by the elders if they let me stay at home they would loose their Priveldges.
They chose the priveldges over me.
So they didnt provide me with a sex education, nor gave me any moral support for the consecuenses of it. This made me fall into a deep depression. Not sure how I survived it all alone.
I actually still have my original copy of the YPA book. I remeber also reading and wondering what can We do?? Everything was wrong. Even flirting was a sin!
I would never have my kids read that book.Instead I Would communicate with them about the birds and the bees as some call it. And I will also let them receive sex education from a professional at their school.
I really feel sorry for the children that are jws!
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Holy Connoli says:
January 9, 2016 at 6:08 am
@Bati. You are an amazing person Bati. I do not know how you survived. I cannot imagine being kicked out at 21 and pregnant and to be on your own. That tears at my heart. How did you survive, where did you go at 21 years old like that? You seem to have come out it well and happy and I am so glad for you. I would love to hear your story or more parts to it. It is encouraging.
I know when I was 20 years old I was “forced” into marriage as a new JW with a 32 yeard old JW bc we liked each other a bit and in my youth I was infatuated withthis lady a bit and she w me so the Elders noticed it and pressured us into marriage after only a few months. I knew immediately after the marriage I had made a HUGE terrible mistake
and I did not even know the person I had married. It has been a bad marriage with many good things in between but I tell you the struggles were so UNNECESSARY and bc of WT policy on dating they forced us into it. Somehow I survived although we do not live together. The WT is bad news, bad NEWS, bad NEWS. iT IS THE SAME WITH THEIR VIEW ON bAPTISM. tHEY WANT YOUNF KIDS 10-18 YEARS OLD TO GET BAPTIZED AND PUSH THEM TO DO THAT AND MAKE A LIFE LONG DECEION TO DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO EVERYTHING THE WT TEACHES Forever! Then if you change your mind or say hey, I was 12 years old and did not have a chance to think or analyze on my own you are DF’s and your family and friends cannot talk with you. WTF kind of religion is that? Same w marriage. If you date a person you need to think about getting married right away!How can you make a life long commitment to a marriage after a few months of dating a person? WT is so WRONG and they do these things to control their members.
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Winston Smith says:
January 9, 2016 at 10:37 pm
What? Communicate with your children and educate them? We can’t have that. We need to shove all that Watchtower propaganda down their throats and when they can’t handle the realities of life kick them out, but tell them we will pray for them.
Being facetious of course.
WS
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Anonymous says:
January 10, 2016 at 8:09 am
In the USA, it has been contention for years between the “social conservatives” and “liberals” in who has access to educate children. The conservatives achieved inroads to allow conservative parents like JW’s and other evangelicals to deny sex education, so now we have your plight Bati where parents refuse to communicate and educate. Then, blame from same politicians and religious types when an individual without knowledge is easily led into issues.
Hopefully, God will be merciful on your parents for their negligence and pride.
I would also add that JW’s today are spared the role-playing that projected roles for ideal JW wives and husbands nearly every month during the Sunday lecture. It sometimes projected an arguing husband and wife, contrasting the strong-willed, argumentive woman to the meek, submissive wife. Rarely would it contrast the way an ideal husband handled things to the less than ideal husband. As long as he wasn’t drunk, gambling, smoking or out philandering, a man was “the image and glory of the Lord”.
Which brings up the current JW theology over-emphasis, based on the “traditions” of the first century. Jehovah–>Christ–>husband–>woman–>(Children?), so anyone notice how the woman is distanced from Christ? Yet, Corinthians corrects this a few verses later (which as some suspect highlights the multiple writers contributing to these “epistles” over time) by uniting woman and man, as Jesus stated.
So, if you’re a single, divorced or widowed woman, does that mean your rolling the dice to hope Jesus knows you and puts your name in the book of Life? Pretty clear, you need a man–an organization of men–to save you.. Good luck kids..
Jehovah–>Christ–>husband–>woman–>(Children?)
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Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 9:31 pm
@A4
I think you left out an important piece of that chain of command for JWs (I realize, of course, that you were going for the actual biblical teaching). For JWs it should be:
Jehovah->Jesus->WATCHTOWER->husband->wife->child. Does this not further distance the woman from Christ?
WS
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Art Fern says:
January 15, 2016 at 1:03 pm
@BATI, your story is chilling, I can’t imagine how hurt and lonely you felt. As a dad, I could never do that, I could not tell a son or daughter that because of a “sin” I wish they had never been born, or they could not live in my clean and pure home because they might infect the others. I do understand how the Elders pressure and manipulate to push parents to do these things.
You had the inner strength to make the best of this terrible situation. I applaud you for enduring.
Thank you for sharing. You have unconditional support from those of us and the many apostates. Bless you
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JWIntellect says:
January 8, 2016 at 8:25 pm
Man…the titles to these articles just keep getting better and better. “How the Watchtower Stole Christmas” and now this. I lol’d as soon as I saw it.
Keep them coming!
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JWIntellect says:
January 8, 2016 at 8:44 pm
Beautifully written article, Ms. Lundblom. Your writing style is so captivating!
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Art Fern says:
January 8, 2016 at 8:47 pm
If only I had paid attention to the warnings regarding mastaurbation, I might be able to use an iPad rather than this bulky Braille keyboard. Please friends do not become involved in this tool of Satan, it is not to be used for anything other than passing water until you marry. And then it’s use is restricted to the creative purposes for which it was intended. My world is very dark and for what a few moments of pleasure interspersed with days and more days of piercing guilt.
It’s interesting just how religion closes in on sex, fully aware that if you take complete control over what someone does when they re naked, you control the person. Of course high control churches start out as early as they can in planting seeds of guilt and fear. They want you to stop and think about spending the little money you might have on items that bring you a measure of happiness, ice cream, a ride at the carnival, etc. They reinforce the thought that spending money belongs to them, or as they put it, to Jehovah because he needs all you have to make him happy. They must create fear and guilt to force you to pay rapt attention to their meeting speakers. In addition it’s important to vilify learning about the world around you, having worldly pals, joining into celebrations noting important events. To not allow a child to find happiness in being a kid instead forcing the child to think first whether its OK, will my doing this make Jehovah unhappy, is abuse? A deity who’s happiness is dependent on the willingness of a child to be submissive in every way to the commands of the Watchtower is indeed evil.
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Pow says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:17 pm
@Art, sorry to hear about your blindness,,do you also suffer from hair growth on your palms along with unsightly warts?? Don’t say you weren’t warned!!
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Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 8:55 pm
You know Pow my friend, paper cuts to your finer tips are really uncomfortable but try using a straight razor or a blade on your hands, OW, Owwie big time. Those contures that sneak up and before you know it you whacked off a finger tip or knuckle.
Of course I am being dopey, but in 6th grade the principal took an entire day telling us all about the birds and bees, he told the boys they could go blind if the did the big M word. Most of us had no idea what the term meant and no one had the courage to ask for clarification. Half thought it must have something to do with fishing. We were also told that acting on your sexual feelings was like starting a car, pressing harder and harder on the gas never being able to stop it because it was going so fast. If someone gave in, ahead would be a long road of suffering because you would never be able to stop doing it, night and day, alone or in school. Pretty scary stuff.
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Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 6:30 am
The YPA book reported that 95% of all men (and 90% of women) admitted to mastursbating at one point in time. The JW guys I hung around with as a teen used to say 95% admit it and the other 5% lied!
There does seem to be an unnatural fixation on this behavior in the literature. Oh that’s right, it was written by sexually repressed men living in a commune-type environment with a population that was 99.9% male!
WS
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Tara says:
January 10, 2016 at 9:04 am
A former Bethelite I am acquainted with, once told me that his years there left him homophobic. He didn’t elaborate but I could see it in his eyes that something was very wrong.
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Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 1:43 pm
I have been told the same thing many times that basically everyone mastuarbates frequently or rarely, all fairly normal humans do so. The figure I was given was something like yours 98% do and 2% lie. I wonder why a few religious organizations seek to make a big deal about this personal act. Really what’s the harm? Unless a person losses interest in the opposite sex, becomes compulsive and unable to control themselves, even doing so in public circumstances, why can’t the topic be left alone? I suspect that some people are more prone to taking uninvited liberties with members of the opposite sex because they have this horrible fear of “touching yourself” and going blind or being tossed out of your church. A buddy told me a story that when he was 29 and still unmarried all he could think about was making love, it would keep him up all night. Finally he went to a doctor who gave him a RX for a mild sleeping pill and told him it was OK to do what was necessary to relieve the tension. Immediately he makes an appt to speak with an Elder not wishing to take drugs or follow the 2nd recommedation. He was told to pray when he felt Satan tempting him and then take a long cold shower. I wonder why that didn’t work? Essentially he married the next woman he met who was “compatible religiously” and they, to this very day have a miserable marriage, but for a year or two sex kept it going. Afterwards they found they had nothing in common and little to talk about.
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Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 3:29 pm
@Art Fern,
You are correct. Most experts agree that there are no health risks (either medically or psychologically) associated with occasional masturbation. Some people can get addicted to porn and such, but this usually stems from other issues.
The fact that this practice is not even mentioned in scripture leads to make one wonder why this org is so fixated on it. As was stated earlier it all comes down to one thing: CONTROL.
When my son came of age physically, I explained to him what it was and that it was normal.
WS
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Tara says:
January 11, 2016 at 6:51 pm
Want to hear something really funny? I was actually recommended, by an MS to go buy a ‘toy’. He told me he didn’t know how I could stand not having a guy in my life…. after I finished spluttering and trying not to die of laughter I realized that he was a frequent ‘partaker’ and I am not talking the emblems here!
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:57 pm
What’s wrong with that? Toys can be fun & distracting. I recommend checking out ‘Toys ‘R Us’. Ooooohhh, wait a minute…..nevermind.
James says:
January 11, 2016 at 2:07 am
I remember well the ‘M’ issue! I also remember well studying with my parents the Youth book (red) in my early teens. Not a pleasant experience. By the way I never stopped masturbating myself and yes I went to Bethel and yes I did continue masturbating. In fact, if I had a son (even a daughter), I would encourage the practice of masturbation; not in a sense of arousing lustful thoughts in the mind, but just for eliminating the semen (in case of men) that makes you feel so unconfortable and not being able to think straight with the hight testosterone levels.
If you cannot wait for nucturnal emission, which in my opinion and experience as a teenager are worse, because they are always accompanied by sexual perverted acts in your dream, just listen to my advise: masturbation is not wrong! Fornication is a sin but getting rid of the semen that God intended to be produced in my testicles is far from wrong!
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Will says:
January 11, 2016 at 2:59 pm
A “sister” once said that she would never marry a “brother” who masturbated because that would mean he was selfish and self-centered. What was interesting is this “sister” was so self-centered and thought the world revolved around her. Things that make you go hmm…….
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Winston Smith says:
January 11, 2016 at 5:24 pm
Will,
Given that 95% of all men (98% by some estimates) masturbate, her choices will be very limited. Unless she willing to switch over to girls, where only 90% masturbate. But then I guess she can say that she is truly looking for ‘one in a million.’ How’s that going for her? Is she now a member of the “AAA” club – available after Armageddon?
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:09 pm
I know there’s a great joke in there somewhere. Maybe, She just can’t handle the ‘competition’?
OK,u think of something better.
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JBob says:
January 8, 2016 at 9:22 pm
Had to add one more note, in the real world, when folks go to a “pastor” or “preacher man” for advice, there is no reticence for some ministers in handing-off a challenging issue to support groups–issues that a pastor with training in counseling realizes they are not equipped to handle. In these days, many religious groups sponsor support groups or have ready referrals to assistance groups.
Back in JW days, those elders who were up to the challenge of facing an issue brought to them could be confrontational with the individual deemed “a problem.” And, the “counseling” was primarily demanding or commanding that said person stop behavior or a “should” sentence. All phrases and confrontations that spur the natural rebellion inside us all. Just because those elders “helped” someone out of a bad situation doesn’t mean it was optimal or effective. Was the “problem” reformed, or rehabilitated?
This lack of trained, seasoned counselors and therapeutic resolutions remains an issue when entering JW-land, elders are not trained and seasoned for one-on-one “counseling” other than the oft-cited here “corral” the flock for submissive obedience to the Watchtower (= Jehovah) ultimate objective. Given the “therapist” is also a guard-dog, the individual seeking assistance will find themselves “on trial” rather than guided to solid assistance.
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Markie says:
January 9, 2016 at 10:56 am
The only time you go to an elder is if you want your problem to get bigger and if you want the whole congregation to kbow. I go by what the Bible teaches, never put your trust in earthling man were no salvation belongs.
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Roman Castañeda says:
January 9, 2016 at 10:02 pm
That’s actually very good advice
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Vivian says:
January 8, 2016 at 10:08 pm
I placed this book with a classmate in 3rd grade. At recess a teacher took it out of the girls desk, confiscating it. I got upset (persecution complex kicked in right away) and the teachers were upset too. Eventually my elder uncle had to come in and calm the administrators down. The subjects in those books aren’t appropriate for grade school children. No body told me!
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Idontknowhatodo says:
January 10, 2016 at 4:57 am
I remember expressing that the material in a public talk ‘Godly View of Sex and Marriage’ was unsuitable for under 7s of which there were many in our hall…not for prudish reasons but because children should find these things out at thier own pace and at thier personal level of curiosity…not have it foisted on them at a public meeting…especially when the brother giving it was clearly enjoying the deep discussion about masturbation…accompanied by ridiculous advice as to how to avoid it..’hands outside the sheets and gloves!’….he enjoyed every lascivious minuite of it … whats allowed in the marriage bed…whats not allowed…heavy petting in courtship… yuk yuk yuk…he loved pontificating about it… when I made my feelings known I was heavily critisised and pointed comments were made from the platform about ‘Women know your place’….. I do know my place …. finally.
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Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 6:40 am
I recall that at one point the TMS was having brothers give #4 talks on chapters from the YPA book. When it came time for the chapters on Masturbation the school overseer asked me if I would be comfortable doing it – I was 16 and already a fairly polished speaker – I think I said something like “no way, are you out of your mind?”
They ended up having some married ministerial servants do it (there were two chapters in the original book, so this was two weeks in a row). The first got through it okay. But the second one fumbled with his words and at one point said something like “so hopefully you can resist the urge to to, to, to…touch it” and the whole hall lost it. Too funny! At least they were smart enough not to assign the material to some 7 year old girl for her first talk!
WS
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Holy Connoli says:
January 10, 2016 at 4:13 pm
@Winston Smith. Well, At least they had a married MS give the talk. I am sure he was a Great “Master Debater” ! lol
One time when I was very young and newly married we were making love and we did a few things that the WT says are not approved by the BORG! After we were done I said WOW! That was great and my super duper Pioneer wife felt guilty
and wanted to pray for forgiveness at 1 A.M. in the morning! I felt like man, why pray about that?
Needless to say she is 150% into the BORG and whatever they say. Yesterday she was saying all the Changes in the ORG recently and the teaches proves that they have the truth? I said what about the changes in their position of Oral Sex?
She said stop it that is evil! We don’tlive together currently.
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Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 9:13 pm
My uncle Joe was a football coach, the dad to three girls, I suppose I took the place of a son he never had. After a family party to celebrate the engagement of a much older cousin, Joe said goodbye and then turned to me and said “keep your hands on top of the sheets”. As we were driving home my mother asked me “What on earth was Joe talking about”? I had no idea but my big brother went crazy, laughing until he threw up. Later I was to discover that nature didn’t need hands, it could do things while you slept. That left you feeling like some weird sicko. Some of the guys did confess to various Elders to be told, yes it’s a sin but if you suppress the thoughts by thinking of Christ Jesus, your mom, when they came on nothing would happen while you slept. Gee what harm could possibly result from even more sexual suppression to the extent that you were dirty and sinful if something happened when you were dead asleep.
Sorry Voice of Truth, please don’t cuss me out again.
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Phoenix_rising says:
January 8, 2016 at 10:47 pm
I’ll never forget as a kid laughing at the already dated photos in the original book. The clumsy dumpy girl dropping a tray of food on her mom! “Jah help me I tripped and I am clumsy!” Or the slick kid wearing sunglasses and jeans to the interview. Seriously – great stuff. Anyone else remember the quote in the sex and marriage article “sex soon became boring.” Umm no. Not in a normal relationship. But it was dropped in a way to make you think “that one act you all crave – turns out it’s boring and not all that great.” No – you’re confusing sex with the door to door work. This article barely scratched the surface of the hilarious insanity of the original book. Wasn’t this also the book where they quote a son who masterbates and admits it to his dad and his dad also admitted he had a problem with it at one time and they both cry. Seriously!!! Let’s imagine that:
“Dad my pants were too tight and I gave into urges!” *starts crying*
“Son I once also gave into urges of self love!” *starts crying*
A random C.O. Happens to witness this amazing moment and thinks “this needs to go into the book. And what was that about tight pants???”
^and that ladies and gentlemen is the prequel story of tony tight pants before he became a Governing Body Member
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 12:48 am
“Then is Finished the Mystery of the Tight Pants”
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Holy Connoli says:
January 9, 2016 at 6:21 am
@phoenixrising and anonymous4. Great comments and very funny! Especially the last 2 sentences about a random C.O who became tight pants Tony!
Also A4, “then is finished the mystery of the tight pants”. Quirky, sharp humor!
Made me laugh. Yes, Sex can get boring bur NEVER the FS! That is why after going to 3-04 doors the JW’s do Return visits to chew up another 30 minutes and then head to the coffee shop as quick as they can. Now that is Boring. Just like SEX, they might need to try different positions of placing those magazines or pushing that JW ( Apple ) cart around at Metro witnessing. I heard if you Push it backwards it is more exciting! lol
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Markie says:
January 9, 2016 at 12:09 pm
I remember the old youth book had a chapter entitled “mastribation and homosexuality” basically implying mastribation leads to homosexuality. I don’t believe I ever read the whole chapter but I have to admit it kind of scared me. That book was so insulting and stupid.
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Markie says:
January 9, 2016 at 12:13 pm
I remember the old youth book had a chapter entitled “masturbation and homosexuality” basically implying masturbation leads to homosexuality. I don’t believe I ever read the whole chapter but I have to admit it kind of scared me. That book was so insulting and stupid.
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Pow says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:22 pm
And I remember that drinking to much water, before bed time and eating rich food led to masterbation, so if thats the case……
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JBob says:
January 10, 2016 at 8:20 am
@Pow …and spicy foods… more hot pepper sauce?
Holy Connoli says:
January 11, 2016 at 3:38 am
@pow. I heard drinking to MUCH WINE leads to masturbation! Not Water.lol
Pow says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:13 am
I was only 10 when I got the talk concerning the big M. And it even included a built in discussion on the “unforgivable sin”, so I remember too much food and drink before bedtime was an issue, and at 10 years old, wine is not on the menu…
Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 7:49 am
The old red youth book (full title, Your Youth – “Getting the Best out of It” as I recall) was an interesting conglomeration of JW propaganda, male chauvinism, homophobia, and old wives tales.
The terminology was really strange & sterile at times too. YPA did not get released until I was about 15, so I entered puberty with the old red book as the only tool JW parents had. When my dad told me about sex, all he did was read to me from the book’s chapter on sex – no other explanation. I was more confused than previously. I still remember that book’s description of sex near verbatim “the husband lies close to his wife. His male organ naturally fits in her birth canal. They both can get great pleasure from this.” At 11 years old I was fairly sure I knew what the male organ was, but the rest was a mystery.
When my son came of age, I made sure to provide good detail and use some tasteful diagrams from a sex education website.
WS
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Art Fern says:
January 13, 2016 at 11:49 pm
I recall Tony Morris III making that statement in his Rome, “tight pants” and Spanx/Spandex talk. I have no idea what possible connection could there be, a gay person fantesizes about a gay person while a straight person fantasizes about the opposite sex. Where the heck does the crossover occur? If you wanted to get technical the big M reinforces your sexuality rather than changes it. But Hey those folks say the craziest things anyway, I recall a talk about chickens that was a real head scratcher and had a moral to it somewhere and then there as a no-college talk that included a story about a guy with epilepsy who tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head, this cured his epilepsy but didn’t kill the man. I don’t know where they get their BS, my guess is there buy it by the truckload.
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Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 2:06 pm
I don’t know about boring, it seems nature supplies the right hormone to cause making love to be anything but…boring. At any point, the human desire for physical love is a need we all have, sex is just part of that expression. If you are paired with someone you don’t love and does not love you, intimacy could be reduced down to just sex without the caring, holding, cuddling, and wanting to bring pleasure to the other person, maybe at that point it loses something and becomes boring.
Regardless I can only think that the involvement of a church intruding into one’s life to vilifying the act has as its motivation control and nothing else. If you prohibit something, you make it even more desirable, and away we go with hastily arranged marriages to just fulfill that need. Regardless, I still went blind as we were all told would happen. Isn’t it amazing that sex is dirty and sinful, masturbation evil and destructive to your eyesight but viola you get married and it’s all clean, healthy, and not sinful, well as long as you don’t wander….kiss, fondle below the neck…..
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Cobb says:
January 8, 2016 at 11:28 pm
I’ll never forget a talk that was given at the hall during the early 1980s. From the stage, an elder stated that if a young woman were to leave “her father’s house” to go live on her own “purposes of sexual immorality can be assumed.” In the same talk he mentioned that a young man who was preparing himself for marriage would be good to live on his own for awhile so that he could get experience as the head of the household. It was so outrageous to me then, and now.
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 12:53 am
OK, now we’re beyond the Dark Ages, well into the Caveman era. lol
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 12:57 am
“Flintstones, meet the Flintstones, they’re a modern Stone-Age family…”
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Tara says:
January 9, 2016 at 9:24 am
Lol good morning a4… my first coffee of the day and I am laughing….
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Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 9:23 pm
Yea you kid about the “Dark Ages”. They started with me when I was 13 1/2 because I didn’t take this wonderful advice. Believe me Braille ain’t that esay
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Meredith J says:
January 9, 2016 at 4:07 am
It’s so interesting hearing a young person like you Jeni describe your personal feelings about the ‘Young People Ask’ book. Some of those situations in that book seemed really overly exaggerated to me. I remember the picture of the girl in the book being given a tongue lashing from her mother about what she was wearing. I really remember thinking that it didn’t look that bad to me.
I must say though, that the chapter on drugs and alcohol was very helpful as it did create a discussion with our kids as it was a very real problem in our area among teenagers. The picture of the drug addict sitting at his desk with a blind stare, with the admonition of how someone does not grow up when they are on drugs, has never left me. I knew it to be a fact from old friends I had known who had taken drugs.
My daughter read the book but my son was not interested in it. A lot of the advice was really not very practical because as you said Jeni, it was pretty much the same in every situation. I would have hated to have gone to the elders as a teenager. Well thanks for the article. This was the only book the kids got to help and now I realise how useless it was to them. Growing up must have been so hard in the Watchtower. Growing up is difficult anyway, let alone having to go through school and life with all the pressures that the cult puts upon you. I feel so much for those who had to grow up like this under this control freak regime with very little practical help.
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ruthlee says:
January 9, 2016 at 4:59 am
What gets me over the sex thing, how come they go on and on about fornication from the time we start to go to meetings. All jdubs know the word. Anyway when the kids grow up with all that guilt and repression, most kids probably would refrain from sex as a pastime leisure activity because they have had it drummed into them that it is evil. Sex for jdubs is procreative not recreative. Whatever happened to trust don’t they ever dignify people by trusting the kids to behave. No because they are not trustworthy themselves. so attribute evil to anyone in their clutches. How daft and blinkered is that. They set each and every one up for a fall. Then again JC didn’t come for sinners did he? ruthlee
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Caroline says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:24 am
@ruthlee, actually for married JW men, sex is recreational and the women are not to “deprive” their man of it. If the man commits adultery, you can be assured that the one excuse that the man will use is that the wife didn’t give him enough sex and the elders will feel pity for him.
In the Organization, women are sex slaves to their husbands as well as all the other things they are expected to do to be the wife that all women are supposed to be as per Proverbs chapter 31 that all JW girls and women have drilled into them.
Then of course, don’t forget that they can’t be nags so the husband doesn’t want to sleep on the roof and God forbid, no woman in the JW religion wants to be labeled a Jezebel.
We all want to fit into society and the way for women to fit in to society is to not make waves. That goes for all society, not just the JW religion. Women are to be thought of as demure, quiet and lady like.
Any woman who stands up to the fact that women are never thought of as “equal” in intelligence will always be labeled.
Any religion that purports to be run by God, should not allow for women to be treated as less than equal to men in intelligence but most religions will use their “holy” books to subjugate women.
Men are bigger and stronger than women and they want to keep the power and religious “holy” books will always be used to work to their advantage and women, wanting to be liked by society will follow suit and be submissive. That is human nature and the Watchtower uses religion to subjugate women just like the rest of the world does and that treatment of women and children is despicable, especially since they say they represent a perfect God.
If the Watchtower religion was really run by a perfect God, they would be forerunners in treating women and children with the respect that every human being deserves, regardless of who they are or their class in life.
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Markie says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:14 am
Our comments may apply in some cases but I prefer a strong woman. The one thing that attracted me to my wife is that she was a bit of a feminist as well as a pioneer (well the pioneer part didn’t really attract me). I view us as equal partners. She takes the lead in most things and I in others. My daughters are all strong young ladies. I see a lot of JWS that are married to normal strong willed women. Only once did I hear someone tell me his wife wasn’t in subjection to him. I asked him if he could really say that he loved her like his own body. I said if he could do that perfectly then he could ask her to be in subjection to him because if you could love your wife like your own body like the bible tells us to then subjection would be irrelevant. I remember him walking away in silence. He never spoke to me again. And that was fine by me. I do agree that these books were written by men who do not live in the real world.
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Meredith J says:
January 9, 2016 at 3:18 pm
Markie, my husband used to say that Witness women wear the pants in the family. From my observations it is pretty much right because the women always demand the extreme spiritual zone for the family and to hell with the husband. I know because this was how I used to feel, which is not the best direction that a marriage should go in. Watchtower created the picture of the brainwashed family happy in all their spiritual endeavours which was straight out of Fantasyland.
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Rosie says:
January 9, 2016 at 3:37 pm
I can’t help but think of a member of my own family!
She was a pioneer and “supposedly strong-willed” (but totally JW-org compliant). She married a JW brother, who happened to have a very well paid job thanks to his non-JW father.
In accordance with JW instruction neither had any experience with the opposite sex.
Result – wedding night a PAINFUL fiasco, followed by equally painful subsequent encounters. But happy in the knowledge that they were living as true exemplary JWs, (nicely cushioned by their healthy income and wealthy lifestyle that gave them both an elevated status within the JW community), they both continued on in their little bubble. He claimed his sexual rights and she as a good JW elder’s wife regularly submitted to his clumsy, boorish advances; both remaining totally oblivious to the fact that sex could actually be a pleasurable experience for both of them.
Outside of the marital bed, both parties have been disgustingly smug and judgemental in their attitudes, rigidly laying down the law about relationships to others and callously shunning any who do not fit into their way of life.
Ironically (and derisively to those who know better) my female relative has even sanctimoniously and patronisingly offered advice to other young JW sisters to prepare them for the painful sexual experience they would have to endure during and thereafter their wedding nuptials.
When a daughter arrived, my relatives little JW bubble was complete.
However several years later, their daughter has just escaped from this surreal little bubble her deluded parents have created by marrying whilst still a mere teenager, the first young JW brother she can find.
Locked in their JW bubble neither of this young girls parents realise that they are just another dysfunctional JW family and sadly their young daughter has just embarked upon another JW recipe for disaster marital life.
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Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 12:41 pm
“In the Organization, women are sex slaves to their husbands as well as all the other things”
This inequality leads to very skewed views of sex on the part of both partners. Rather than viewing it as an expression of love and pleasure that leads to mutual enjoyment, JW women see it as a chore and JW men as a right. Twisted.
This leads to some JW woman cutting their husbands off completely because sex was so distasteful to them – it happened to several of my friends – and the husbands either end up frustrated, addicted to porn, or cheating. One young brother I knew found himself in this situation and ended up soliciting a prostitute. Fortunately he is now totally out of the cult and in a heathy relationship with a kind (non-JW) woman.
WS
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Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 2:24 pm
In my mind it’s a truism that suppressing sexual thoughts along with avoiding any sexual acts brings about the need for a release of some kind whether it be adultery, porn, drugs, paying for sex. I’m not advocating promiscuity or teenagers becoming sexually active, but if couples ignore the needs of their spouse, refuse to even discuss feelings, emotions and desires each have, it’s not going to just go away and become forgotten. I don’t like the idea of a guy thinking dependency in a woman is a desirable trait or believing that a wife is a sexual pincushion to use whenever he feels like it. Being partners, making major decisions jointly, encouraging and applauding each others strengths and interests, showing the LKCR (loyalty, kindness, courtesy, and respect) brings happiness to each. The expression, “If momma ain’t happy, nobody’s happy” is 100% true from my experience.
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Caroline says:
January 10, 2016 at 4:31 pm
I think it all boils down to females always having to be in “submission” to the males, even if it’s a male child who is baptized and the 80 year old woman having to wear a head covering during a Bible/book study.
The idea that the female is to be “submissive” to males is to put her in a different class of person than males. In other words, females are treated like children to the males, even her own male children and how can a woman get respect from her male children with such a set-up?
It reminds me of countries where women have to wear clothing that only their eyes can show and they can be killed at the whim of their husbands. In those countries, girls can’t even go to school.
The Society likes to think it’s more enlightened that that, but that is the attitude that is in the underbelly background and it’s hinted at in those scriptures at Proverbs 31 and the example of Jezebel and “The Young People Ask” book because of having a question like that in that book. That question is for brothers to look for in a possible mate. A question like that is to subjugate females and there ain’t no if’s, ands or buts about it. When you are a females in the JW religion, it is the only way a JW female is supposed to be. Does that book ask females to look at the man to see if he’s got a good job so that he can support her and any children that come along? I am curious about that. But what about the man. He might have a job when they get married, but there is no guarantee that he will keep working after they get married. That kind of thinking is as shallow as looking at a mate to see how much she weighs and what she looks like, as if she is supposed to stay the same weight and look the same until they both die. That kind of question is only to weed out anybody who might end up having a brain in her head and may question her husband. Anybody with an ounce of brains, should know that when people are dating, they are always going to be on their best behavior. Nobody is going to be showing any “warts” when they are trying to impress the possible mate. That is also human nature. That is why nobody knows what the possible mate is like until they actually get married.
If you have a man who knows that if Mama isn’t happy, then nobody else is happy either, and he wants to be happy, then he will dismiss the “advice” from the Society.
The Society doesn’t have a clue for what makes a woman happy. We aren’t living in the dark ages anymore but they haven’t figured that out yet and believe it or not, women do have voices and they like to be heard, which the Society thinks, doesn’t matter.
As long as they can make rules that people have to follow or get kicked out and shunned, then it works for them and they will stick to it, until it all comes crumbling down with a newer and smarter generation of men and women who are smarter than that.
Art Fern says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:33 pm
Great comment Ruthlee, I have read a number of articles that address the transition from “Sex is dirty, God will destroy you for having sex before marriage” to “Sex is important to your marriage, be kind and considerate and you will both receive and give pleasure while creating a family”.
Just as with those who leave a cult, many have a tough time getting the cult out of their thinking, it’s tough to have the horror stories and threats that were your first introduction to sex suddenly leave your mind after you both say “I Do”
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Human SpellChecker says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:05 am
* – hordes
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msanjama banda says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:31 am
if you cant beat them join them
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Miranda H says:
January 9, 2016 at 8:11 am
Amazing read Jeni, I can relate so much to the disasters of youth because if this book as I was directed to. It is very damaging as a young adult because lack of education into dating and marriage leads to a dangerous situations, which is why I just stay by myself. I am so sad for the children who will be directed to the new one.. or the “go to parent” as you stated.
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Kl says:
January 9, 2016 at 1:03 pm
I just remember all of us getting nervous about about who would get the number 4 talk with the topic of masturbation!!!! Hahaha. Turns out my uncle got the assignment!! Fortunately for him I was in the second school!! Apparently doing the dishes helps you control the urge according to the young people ask book!!! Hahaha. Good thing we had a dishwasher!!
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ThePenthouseExperience says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:02 pm
I’ve heard from certain desperate housewives that a vibrating, shaking kitchen, or washroom, large appliance can relief that sort of pent-up frustration…
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Tara says:
January 10, 2016 at 9:11 am
My appliances are stacked…. I can’t climb up that far…. :(
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Holy Connoli says:
January 11, 2016 at 3:50 am
@tara. Well, smaller “appliances” may work better! lol
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Tara says:
January 11, 2016 at 6:53 pm
OOo er Matron!
Wanderer says:
January 9, 2016 at 2:53 pm
I was talking to my 11 year old daughter last week, she had overheard her JW aunt talk about headship and being in subjection. She wanted to know what it meant, I explained to her how it all works, she was shocked and said “that is so 200 years ago, I would never get into a relationship with someone who treated me like that”. :)
On another topic, the standing in the congregation before you can date is another JW get the young baptised trap. If you want to date you have to fit the cookie cutter criteria, the biggest one is being baptised. Imagine not being baptised and wanting to date an elders son/daughter or not being baptised and getting married in a hall. I think that is a large factor in teenagers getting baptised for the wrong reason and then being trapped by disfellowshipping later on.
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Tara says:
January 9, 2016 at 3:09 pm
I don’t think there have been any wedding in our hall for a long time. Most young people want outside weddings with a wedding officiant. The last wedding in our hall was years ago and those guys are not doing well as she isn’t subservient and he is mentally ill. I’m sick of seeing these poor young people hitched as babes and then pretending life is just peachy. My son ending up marrying his girlfriend because he was living in her parents house and the elders forced their hand as it was seen as ‘living together’. Now they are divorced and both married to non witnesses… my son is still df’d but she was reinstated but leads a double life that she keeps hidden from the elders and her family. I would def. never marry a witness. In fact I had a fun time over the holidays with an Italian guy 😉
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Meredith J says:
January 9, 2016 at 3:27 pm
Tara you naughty girl. Tut tut. All the best with that. If I was clever enough to put a smiley face in I would too.
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JBob says:
January 9, 2016 at 5:09 pm
Tara you gave a glimpse at those “arranged” marriage issues, but I wonder how many similar “knobstick weddings” due to elder meddling or tattle-tale meddling are caused. “I saw Y and X making out (holding hands and talking) at the secret grove at the Circuit Assembly convention center.” Or, because a young, naive man, or woman, is caught in a compromising situation that becomes twisted into a “serious matter” and to save face and privileges, they tie-the-knot?
So, this headship thing, do husbands still make their wives throw garlands before their feet as they walk to the toilet?
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Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 12:57 pm
One thing I recall that was common for young JWs who were dating was getting all handsy with each other but stopping short of having intercourse. I think they Org called it mutual masturbation.
The result always seemed that one of the pair felt guilty and ran to the elders with it. They’d get counseled and usually reproved and then almost always break up. And it often seemed that the girl got blamed for it and was put in a bad light.
My cousin was dating a wonderful young woman, but then they got in trouble for being all touchy-feely and then he breaks up with her. Never understood the logic behind that. I think it may have been because the elders were telling them they either had to marry or break up. “But if you decide to marry, you can’t have the wedding in the KH, ’cause we know about your dirty deed.”
WS
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Art Fern says:
January 11, 2016 at 1:47 am
Tara, personally garlands are too much. I’m much more practical. If the little woman can squeeze in a few hours of peeling a few pounds of grapes, mow the lawn and wax my car, I’m a happy man
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Tara says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:09 am
Haha you funny man.
Holy Connoli says:
January 9, 2016 at 6:41 pm
@tara! Hey, I am Italian!I even go to an Italian Club? It wasn’t me was it? Lol.I am the financial secretary!
Oh yea, that is another DIMB thing the WT teaches is we should not join any clubs! JW’s the religion of no fun. The Nuns of no fun!
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:43 pm
@ Tara
Details, please.
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:45 pm
…and video, if available. 😉
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anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:46 pm
😉
anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:47 pm
I guess the imogees aren’t working. Sad face.
anonymous4 says:
January 9, 2016 at 11:49 pm
@ Tara
The sad face was for the broken imogees, not u. Wink.
Tara says:
January 10, 2016 at 9:12 am
Hahahaha ROFLMAO nudge nudge wink wink say no more. 😉
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Winston Smith says:
January 10, 2016 at 12:46 pm
A nudge is as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh, eh?
Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 9:32 pm
Tara, you want to leave a phone number?
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Tara says:
January 10, 2016 at 11:23 pm
HAHAHA you gonna get us kicked off here. It was nice to have fun. To feel alive for once… I’ve towed the line since my ex left me and then the divorce. I waited for Mr ‘right brother’ to come along but he never did. Sisters outweigh the brothers, we all know that. To be honest I was scared even to hold this guys hand so nothing went too far… It was nice to kiss and cuddle… but even so, in the back of my mind was the WT condemning me for my sin of being a healthy human being with feelings and needs. Ok and wants… who wouldn’t want a nice healthy Italian eh girls 😉
Meredith J says:
January 12, 2016 at 2:08 am
Haha that is what my daughter got.
Meredith J says:
January 9, 2016 at 3:05 pm
Why wouldn’t you have such a crap experience in your marriage being guided by the Watchtower? Of course the very little time that you had to share in intimacy with your partner, was stolen by time for pre-study, going to meetings, being hospitable to people you have never met before, dragging yourself and your family out witnessing in the hot sun all morning and copping abuse as you went.
Why would anyone get excited about going to bed? I was just going to wake up to another relentless day in the life of a Jehovah’s Witness. Grind and treadmill. Working to get to a boring assembly. Those weekends away were hell. It’s a wonder my marriage held together with all the components to rip it apart designed by the Watchtower attacking it from all sides. There were endless money worries because my husband and I had to do lesser paid manual work in order to be able to get to the meetings, putting an added strain on our marriage. And the guilt trip it would put upon men who found the family study too hard. I remember ripping into my husband about that. How stupid I was to have fallen for it. Thank God he stayed around.
Yet we have found another way the Watchtower sought to ruin our lives, by way of our marriages. How absolutely evil.
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Alexandria R says:
January 9, 2016 at 8:29 pm
I remember reading from young people ask and thinking, that answer doesn’t work for me. They have a one size fits all mentality.
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Mars says:
January 10, 2016 at 3:29 pm
YPA book I remember was part of the Thursday Book study back in the 1980’s . When it came out there were recurring themes about Masturbation , rather embarrassing comments from the study conductor . I remember a young boy who picked up the microphone being pushed by his parents to say “oral sex is bad”…..
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anonymous4 says:
January 10, 2016 at 7:51 pm
I remember 1 young kid (maybe 9 or 10, the son of an elder) reading a scripture in the KH, about the ancient Israelites, or somebody, being forced to “eat their own excrement”. It was surreal, creepy, and funny all at the same time.
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anonymous4 says:
January 10, 2016 at 8:07 pm
Someone quoted a statistic that only about a third of Witness Youth remain in the Org. That’s very heartening. If the WT is not put out of its misery by force, it will simply fizzle out of existence.
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Art Fern says:
January 10, 2016 at 11:34 pm
This is the statistical data you were looking for:
Pew Study on Religion-2014http://www.pewforum.org/files/2015/05/RLS-08-26-full-report.pdf
Among those raised in the religion … % who still identify with the religious body
Hindu 80
Muslim 77
Jewish 75
Historically black Protestant 70
Evangelical Protestant 65
Mormon 64
Catholic 59
Orthodox Christian 53
Unaffiliated 53
Mainline Protestant 45
Buddhist 39
Jehovah’s Witness 34
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 12:33 am
Thanx. Some interesting stats there. Is it any wonder JW is the lowest? lol
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Holy Connoli says:
January 11, 2016 at 4:00 am
@ART FERN.Good stats Art. I passed these on to some other JW’s I know.
I bet the WT is like Enron and even “COOK THE BOOKS” to make it look like they are growing more than they are even at the measly 1-2% growth they claim. Remember most of the so called growth is coming from FORCED baptism’s from their children and from 3rd World countries where there is a high percentage of uneducated people without access to the internet or other opinions. The JW Religion is still new to them and the WT only shows them the modern Face of the WT. They know nothing of its torrid , mean , false history. If only 1/3 of Adult JW stay with the religion and in that 1/3 maybe 50% really believe it those are not good stats and not good retention at all. I mean who wants to join those guys with their 1000’s of rules and nonsense and shunning and destruction of family and molestations and lies etc. For real. A dooms dat cult they are.
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Art Fern says:
January 11, 2016 at 8:46 pm
Holy, you nailed it, if the Watchtower, using the most drastic and hurtful means possible (shunning) can’t keep members in, the problem is much greater than anyone can imagine. I bet the figure of 50% of those in are pretenders who cannot comprehend losing their spouse, children, friends, and maybe their job, is darn close to reality. If the pretenders were true to themselves they would leave, but not at such a high cost. There are 7 million publishers, if shunning was not a core principle, there might only be 3.5 million. Of those many will eventually wake up, but more importantly 2 in every 3 of their children will not identity as JWs, so the increase in born-in members is almost eliminated. This is like a bomb that eventually will blow up and take down the org.
anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:23 pm
@ Holy Connoli
Great point about “cooking the books”. Never thought of that! Thanx for reminding me how DEEP propaganda can go!!!
anonymous4 says:
January 10, 2016 at 8:36 pm
No wonder so many Witness marriages are miserable. Speaking from personal experience, a youth growing up as a Witness does not get the proper social exposure & training to be a well-adjusted adult. I had to learn all that stuff on my own, much later. U learn nothing by following Robotic advice & procedures from some ‘Life Manual’ – As if there could ever be such a thing!
Many folks, including NON-JWs, seem to see marriage as some kind of “magic portal”, so that once u pass thru, ur Fairy Godmother or someone waves a magic wand, and Presto! – Instant Happiness! Just like Cinderella & Prince Charming riding off to the Castle. Fact is, if u take 2 dysfunctional people & put them together, their situation will be at least as bad as before. Probably better to stay single. My advice to anyone contemplating marriage is: Take a GOOD look at YOURSELF 1st. Are u an adult? Well-adjusted? Mature? Do u play well with the other “kids”? If so, ur own instincts should be able tell u if the other person is cool. Marriage is a scary proposition, especially when u consider that almost 50% of all marriages last forever.
So DON’T RUSH!!! I’m sick of all the propaganda on T.V., in movies & music, etc, insinuating that if u’re not in a relationship, u must be some kind of lonely, pathetic loser. It’s actually gone from thought-control to emotion-control. ‘1984’-squared!!! They try to get u to ‘punish’ urself for being single by ‘demanding’ that u be depressed & lonely. F*** that!!! And f*** THEM!!! I’m alone. I’m NOT lonely! I have the social skills to get human interaction, anytime, anywhere. In my case, WT & all the other Propagandists, FAILED MISERABLY.
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Tammy Baker says:
January 11, 2016 at 4:10 am
P of the issues some of you have found like p flaws. Most religions teach abstinence, no sex prior to marriage. And kids and teenagers who are eager for sex are more than likely wanting because a peer has talked about it or has put those thoughts in their minds.
And if one behaves that much differently when people aren’t watching, well then that’s a character issue, not s religious issue.
Seems as though most of you don’t like the religion because you weren’t allowed to do more than likely things you weren’t able to do as a child. However your parents without religion would have set fine ground rules that would be sure to piss you of as well.
I don’t see any valid phones being made here, just complaints that you weren’t allowed to masterbate or date early, or have as much premarital sex as you would have liked?
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Covert Fade says:
January 11, 2016 at 4:32 am
Hi Tammy.
Do you not think it is a valid point to say that youths who are expected to date with a chaperone and never be alone together until they commit to marriage will be much less likely to actually know the person they are marrying and suffer a much more difficult marriage as a result?
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Cedars says:
January 11, 2016 at 4:35 am
I don’t see any “valid phones” from you either. It is perfectly conceivable to have good morals without basing them all on a narrow interpretation of a sacred text that is itself riddled with accounts of sexual depravity. Sexual repression can actually do serious harm. It has even been suggested that repression in the form of celibacy has played a major role in the child sex abuse scandal in the catholic church. Per our posting guidelines, kindly refrain from making judgmental, evangelically-motivated comments.
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Covert Fade says:
January 11, 2016 at 5:40 am
Tammy, if it helps, I’ve always found Apple and Samsung to be valid phones. Nokia used to be good, but they’ve slipped a bit. Don’t touch that Microsoft stuff. 😉
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Caroline says:
January 11, 2016 at 6:35 am
Tammy, for once, I actually agree with the Watchtower Society in that I think sex before marriage is a bad idea but not because of what the Bible says or what the Watchtower says but because studies have shown.
Once sex has begun between a couple, they may stop getting to know each other. If they have been dating for a very long time and they really know each other, then that is an entirely different matter.
Then there is the problem that if a person has slept with multiple partners before marriage, then they are likely to meet these people when they are out and about and that is something they have to live with for the rest of their lives unless they move away and the one they do marry will always wonder who it is that their marriage mate has been intimate with before marrying that particular person. If young people have sex while they are in school, the girl may be talked about as being “easy” and get a bad reputation and lose respect among her peers while the boy will brag about his conquests.
Movies and television make sex as recreation and that gives people the idea that it isn’t that important outside of marriage but they do leave out an awful lot of stuff that people need to know before engaging in it and the Society doesn’t have a clue. All they can do is use some scriptures and fool the rank and file into thinking they are getting it straight from God.
They don’t have anything of importance to tell young people when it comes to sex. The Bible is from bronze aged savages who lived thousands of years ago and totally ignorant as to facts in today’s enlightened age.
The Society is stupid and lazy and just wants rules to be followed mindlessly and marriages to be something they can’t get out of, once they have “tied the knot”.
This stupid lazy attitude towards marriage has ruined millions of lives in the Organization and the Society should be held accountable for their lazy “advice” but they get away with it and have gotten away with it for over one hundred years under the guise of being “run by God” and people fall for it, just as anybody who belongs to any religion has fallen for the same kind of people who are narcissistic leaders who attract gullible people.
Before marriage, sex is taboo and bad and after signing the papers, then it’s good. Most people who believe in God, feel as if there is that invisible God who is watching them naked, whether they are having sex before marriage or after the papers are signed and if they really do believe in God, feel that God is watching them naked and being humped or humping the other person or masturbating. Children are being taught all over the world that there is that invisible God watching every thing they do and just signing papers doesn’t make them feel any less “guilty” when they have sex after marriage or masturbating.
TOnce a person really falls in love (not infatuation) with the other person, they will want to be with that person for the rest of their lives and they will want to have sex with that person, whether they are the girl or the man. That is how the human race has kept going all this time. There is nothing wrong with it and if they feel free to do it without that invisible God watching over them while they are doing it, they will enjoy it a lot more and will feel a lot freer and not feel guilty about it.
Yes, you are right. A lot of religions preach abstinence before marriage but using the Bible for that teaching is silly because as Cedars said, the Bible is full of fornication and adultery even by Jesus ancestors who of which, if they hadn’t done what they did, Jesus would never have existed, like for instance David committing adultery with Bathsheba to produce Solomon who was an ancestor of Jesus (Matthew 1:6).
I don’t like the Watchtower because of all their lies and rules, which have nothing to do with the Bible. Anybody can take the Bible and fool people with it. People aren’t forced to accept lies. They want to be lied to and the Society knows that and they will say anything to get followers. They are not above lying to people and people want to be lied to.
People hate the idea of dying and miss their dead loved ones and all religions use that fear to get followers and money support. Either religions use the idea of never dying (like Watchtower teaches) or it’s the idea of an afterlife in heaven or hell.
I ask you to describe your God Jehovah to me. If you look in the Insight book under Jehovah, it just says that it’s the name of God (not true) and if you look in the Reasoning book under Jehovah, it only says it’s the name of God (again not true) but there is no description of Him.
When I think of the God Jehovah in the Bible, all I can think of is all the people he killed. Saying that God is love, doesn’t say much. So, is love God?
Really, how can you describe God? How did he make everything that is alive and living on the earth out of thin air, out of nothing? Can anybody see him or is he invisible? If he is invisible, then explain how he made anything out of nothing.
We were all just made to believe in an invisible God who made everything and is everywhere but there is no evidence that God is anywhere to watch over us while we are naked. If you don’t have that idea implanted in our heads, that makes having sex a lot more fun, without an audience watching us.
Think about it.
Just signing papers doesn’t make the guilt go away if you believe that there is that invisible God watching you naked.
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Winston Smith says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:17 am
@Caroline,
I’d like to add that I think it is especially important that teenagers abstain from sexual intercourse because they are not emotionally or intellectually mature enough for sex or its consequences.
Let’s face it, the most common result of sex is pregnancy, so when someone chooses to engage in it then should able and ready to support the results of their actions. Again, a reason why teens are not ready for it.
To your point, a piece of paper does not somehow make sex all of a sudden moral or the lack thereof immoral. Young people should be reasoned with as to why sex is not a good decision at this point in their lives, but they also should be given good instruction as to how to engage in it safely if they choose to do so. Telling them that there is an invisible person spying on them and who will punish them for having sex is not healthy.
Logic and reason also help us to appreciate the dangers of multiple, lurid sexual encounters – just look at all the sexually transmitted diseases. The point being we don’t need a bunch of arbitrary rules and insinuation of invisible punishment to induce good judgement about sex, we just need common sense.
WS
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Will says:
January 11, 2016 at 2:54 pm
I agree teenagers should put off dating and sex. It just becomes a preoccupation with kids. I would just encourage my kids to masturbate instead of sex. It’s safer and it relieves a lot of built up tension. I think kids should focus on school and a career.
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:44 pm
@ Will
Thank you for saying “kids should focus on school and a career”!!! If today’s parents exercised the kind of DISCIPLINE (sorry for using that dirty word) that my parents did, teen sex would not even be an issue!!!!!!!!!!… nor would drugs, drinking & driving, etc.
Art Fern says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:12 pm
Not a single person has made remarks to encourage a person having multiple partners. Not one person had advocated, but rather condemned teens becoming sexually active. You have missed the point, because that little (JW) voice in your head, exaggerates what has been written to the point that you read between the lines and imagine that we are writing about a state of free love, irresponsibility, sexually active children, and multiple partners who never really know each other. Please read my first comment, that a few folks seemed to agree with, but for one character. I wrote about a couple of adults who were committed and exclusive having dated for some time and planning on marriage. Surely if they were looking at marriage they would know as much about each other as if they had married before actually living together. That said your premise is terribly faulty, the suggestion that after that first time being intimate, all learning stops is just nuts.
The theme throughout this discussion has been the problems created by Watchtower teachings which vilify friendships outside the KH, causing people in desperation to marry to have sex, marrying too young as well as having such a small pool to choose from. Them we add in incorrect information leading to many having rather bizarre hang ups about sex. The body of evidence in many decades of study involving millions of individuals is that some fundemental Biblical beliefs meant to control individuals by scare tactics, come at a great cost.
If you played by all the rules, as I did and everyone else who is commenting, and have a wonderfully happy marriage, good for you. However most of us did not, it doesn’t help anyone for you to make sweeping judgements, assign blame, when you have never walked in our shoes.
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Rosie says:
January 12, 2016 at 1:52 pm
I would just like to clarify that in no way was my previous comment promoting being promiscuous, or trying to belittle waiting to have sex for the first time with a marriage mate.
However the rules of WT do not permit a couple to really get to know each other. “A chaperone at all times” – being alone only when going from door to door on field service.
Sex is such a taboo subject for the JWs they are actually obsessed with it and so think everyone else is. It was only after I left that I discovered that it was possible to date, be alone with a member of the opposite sex – even though they were “worldly” and not engage in sexual relations! (My JW relations do not seem able to comprehend this).
I remember when as a JW a great fuss was made when I simply talked to a single brother at an assembly out of earshot of others.
Marriage is a big step – for anyone. I know so many young JWs who have got married and had unhappy marriages, many that fail.
Some have failed because their marriage mate is actually gay, but has guiltily followed the JW guidelines and not only repressed their true feelings and sexuality but also in accordance with the teachings have refrained from being too intimate with their intended before they married. It was only after they married that “the truth outed” and led to a lot of hurt.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think the YPA book covers that scenario!
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Winston Smith says:
January 12, 2016 at 3:25 pm
@Art Fern,
I certainly didn’t get the sense from any of your comments that you were promoting free love, irresponsibility, or sexually active children. Seems to me you have typically promoted a balanced view in this regard.
WS
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Art Fern says:
January 15, 2016 at 1:21 pm
Winston, Caroline, Tara, Holy, Anon and others: thank you all so much for backing me up as well as being supportive of what I may have written. You are very kind and I appreciate your comments more than you will ever know. This forum has really been helpful and therapeutic for me, I hope for you too.
Caroline says:
January 12, 2016 at 4:53 pm
@Art, I am thinking you are referring to my comments? I was only suggesting some of the problems of of what can happen when people have sex before marriage.
I also played by all the rules and had a miserable marriage so I know of what I speak also and my marriage was in 1967, which was 49 years ago and still going.
In my comments, I wasn’t agreeing with what the Society says about sex before marriage because of what the Society says but I was only going by books I have read and television shows I have seen and studies.
I would never condemn anybody who had sex before marriage and I don’t advocate it either.
I can assure you that there is no little Watchtower voice in my head. I have washed that bull crap out of my head completely and if I wanted to have sex before marriage, I think it’s my business. I think though, that young people don’t realize some of the ramifications and even some adults don’t realize some of the ramifications either.
The Watchtower Society doesn’t have a clue when it comes to sexual advice for anybody. Even if they just used some good books to come up with some good advice that would be better than anything they have ever written in any of their books when it comes to good, solid advice about anything but they won’t do that either.
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Art Fern says:
January 14, 2016 at 12:01 am
Caroline, your comments were great, there was nothing I disagreed with, I was responding to Tammy Baker (I think she meant Bakker). I may have incorporated some of your points but not in the way of disagreeing.
I’m sorry I wasn’t very clear.
Caroline says:
January 14, 2016 at 4:36 am
Thanks Art for replying to my comment. I was afraid my comment had been offensive and I would never try and make anybody feel bad about sex before marriage. It happens all the time since time immemorial and I think it’s disgusting how the Watchtower thinks they have a right to condemn somebody when they have done it and makes them think they have to confess to them if they have done it and how many times and with whom and on and on.
The Watchtower (elders and Governing Body) has no evidence at all that God ever appointed them as watch dogs over anybody but they presumptuously insert themselves into the private lives of millions of people and can ruin them mentally for the rest of their lives because of having sex before marriage or masturbated or engaged in heavy petting or even in what position that married couples engage in when they are having sex in their own bedrooms.
All it takes is one act of premarital sex and that person will for the rest of their lives feel as if they have “sinned” against God and unless they confess to the elders will always feel that God is withholding his spirit from that congregation.
That feeling of guilt is what destroys a person mentally so if they are a Witness, they will go to the elders to “confess” their sins and that is supposed to make them feel better about what they did but it doesn’t.
Now they know that the elders know and so every time they walk into the Kingdom Hall, they have to face those elders who know what they did. It is the same feeling as if those elders saw them naked and did what they did and those poor people have to live with that feeling ashamed and exposed for the rest of their lives.
They would have been so much better off, not even telling the elders but they tell the elders in the hopes that they will be absolved of their guilty feelings about having “sinned” against God.
Then they might even be disfellowshipped for telling them what they did as in the case of the silly secret elders’ meeting with the guy that had sex when he went up to see a girl’s fish tank and got the girl pregnant.
What can help those people with not having that kind of guilt is for them to find out that the Watchtower isn’t representing God at all but taking the place of a God in their lives, which is completely against what the Bible even says.
When they come to realize that a God doesn’t have anything to do with Watchtower, they can finally not have those guilty feelings anymore and can be happy.
If any so-called “Christian” organization deserves to fit the description that is in the Bible at Matthew 7:21-23, it is the Watchtower organization.
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Art Fern says:
January 15, 2016 at 1:27 pm
@Caroline, Grest points well expressed. I do feel badly that I wasn’t very clear leading you to possibly think I was attacking you, which would be like attacking myself since we are in unison in our views.
anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:52 pm
… And let’s face it, those Bronze Age savages wouldn’t know a valid phone from a dead goat.
Sorry, just had to get in on that action. :)
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Average Joe says:
January 11, 2016 at 7:14 am
The WT Study last week was again trying to take the fun out of being a youth.
Page 8 paragraph 2: “one expert on child development states: “Adolescence is not a period of being ‘crazy’ or ‘immature.’ It is an essential time of emotional intensity, social engagement, and creativity.”
I’m sorry but if you can’t be crazy and immature when you’re a teenager then it’s a sad state of affairs. Once again there is a very obscure reference to a supposed “expert”. Which expert is this? What is their name and what is the context in which they made that statement, if indeed they did make it?
Also they have really contradicted themselves. if they admit that there are teenagers who are crazy and immature, then doesn’t that allow for the possibility that a teenager’s decision to get baptised was made rashly or whilst in a moment of madness?
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Covert Fade says:
January 11, 2016 at 8:17 am
By definition, Adolescence is exactly the time to be “immature.” Otherwise it would be called “maturity.”
I also note they did not name this “expert” or reference the quote.
Watchtower: Oblivious of the dictionary since 1914….
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Songbird says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:26 am
The WT quote is from “Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain” by Dr. Daniel J. Siegel, a noted psychiatrist and author. The context of his comment is a discussion of ‘myths’ and negative attitudes about adolescence. His words just prior to the quote are:
“Unfortunately, what others believe about us can shape how we see ourselves and how we behave. This is especially true when it comes to teens and how they “receive” commonly held negative at-
titudes that many adults project (whether directly or indirectly)—that teens are “out of control,” or “lazy” or “unfocused.” Studies show that when teachers were told that certain students had “limited intelligence,” these students performed worse than other students whose teachers were not similarly informed. But when teachers were
informed that these same students had exceptional abilities, the students showed marked improvement in their test scores. Adolescents who are absorbing negative messages about who they are and what is
expected of them may sink to that level instead of realizing their true potential. As the writer Johann W. van Goethe said, “Treat people as if they were what they ought to be and you help them become what they are capable of being.”
Interestingly, the doctor also states “the ‘work’ of adolescence—the testing of boundaries, the passion to explore what is unknown and exciting—can lay
the stage for the development of core character traits that will enable adolescents to go on to lead great lives of adventure and purpose.” Wonder why the WT didn’t include that quote??
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Average Joe says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:34 am
@songbird Wow! Thanks for a quick response and finding that quote. It’s amazing how things can change when you take them out of their original context.
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Tara says:
January 11, 2016 at 6:59 pm
I’m 49 and still want to be crazy and immature…. anyone else in?
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Art Fern says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:30 pm
You have to love the circular logic, first they liberally use, but misuse expert information when it can be taken out of context to bouy up a JW contention. Everyone is aware of the Watchtower having to make corrections in its articles because the expert they used did not appreciate having his or hers words twisted to have, in some cases, opposite meanings.
Secondly, getting back to the Demonic world teachings, they condemn institutions of higher learning as well as the conclusions drawn by the scientists, those who study social issues, medical and psychiatric personal who conduct double-blind studies involving hundreds of thousands of patients.
The Watchtower in the course of putting together a piece do searches on clinical studies, scientific articles to find the right info they can then twist into supporting their contentions, hoping their doing so never gets back to the experts. One and on it goes…..
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Art Fern says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:52 pm
You do realize that you might be responsible for starting a stampede. I hope I never grow up, I never want to start wearing spongy shoes, dress in cheap polyester clothing, start running down the youth because in our day we were perfect while today’s kids are lazy and irresponsible, eating at 4pm to get the Seniors-early bird discount in-bed by 8. diving land yachts a mile long with the men in the front their wives in the back.
Today I wore a bright blue polo shirt with the alligator chewing on my shoulder, white jeans and hiking boots. Once a preppie always a preppie. I wore a suit and tie everyday for very long time,(through many Arizona summers), no more. Before someone calls me superficial don’t, we’re speaking of attitude solely and the accraments that go with age and attitude. Keep your mind fresh, do what you enjoy, and stay young. Hey Tara, I’m in
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:53 pm
@ Tara
I don’t believe I’ve ever matured. & my sanity is definitely in question. So yeah, wtf, I’m in.
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Holy Connoli says:
January 15, 2016 at 4:41 am
@tara. I am in. I always say it is never to late to have childhood!
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Art Fern says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:24 pm
You have to love the circular logic, first they liberally use, but misuse expert information when it can be taken out of context to bouy up a JW contention. Everyone is aware of the Watchtower having to make corrections in its articles because the expert they used did not appreciate having his or hers words twisted to have, in some cases, opposite meanings.
Secondly, getting back to the Demonic world teachings, they condemn institutions of higher learning as well as the conclusions drawn by the scientists, those who study social issues, medical and psychiatric personal who conduct double-blind studies involving hundreds of thousands of patients.
The Watchtower in the course of putting together a piece do searches on clinical studies, scientific articles to find the right info they can then twist into supporting their contentions, hoping their doing so never gets back to the experts. One and on it goes…..
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Covert Fade says:
January 11, 2016 at 8:14 am
@voiceoftruth
You do realise that if you’re using language like that, you won’t get through “Armmageton” either, right?
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:07 pm
Oh, God! I was anxious enough about Armageddon. Now I have to worry about Armmageton too? I think I’ll just play some “Armageddon It” by Def Leppard. 😉
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:15 pm
Sometimes the imogees work, sometimes they don’t. Or is it just my computer? Maybe a hacker trying to destroy apostate morale by depriving us of imogees. Sad Face.
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Tara says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:17 pm
2 minutes to midnight works as well.
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James Broughton says:
January 11, 2016 at 8:50 am
Thanks Jeni. Some months ago James Strait wrote “Personal success was, and still is, being targeted by the official site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Clearly, Watchtower is threatened by the ambitious youth among their ranks, and are taking action to demotivate them.” That would back up my experience of encountering Witnesses in the U.K. who have left school with minimal qualifications.
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Winston Smith says:
January 11, 2016 at 9:21 am
Great point James. In fact I was just thinking recently that the JWs encourage nothing better than mediocrity. Just be a ‘yes man’ to the organization. No room for individuality or reaching for your best potential.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:24 pm
I remember an incident, in conversation at the KH, a JW teen mentioned she was thinking of going to college to study Nursing. An elder countered by telling her she should study something that will be “useful” in the “new system”. I told him, in a joking sort of way, not to be such a Dream-Killer.
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Art Fern says:
January 14, 2016 at 12:20 am
Amen James! And it gets confusing, they connect college with Evil Philosophy classes or greed. Never is the pursuit of knowledge mentioned or wanting to achieve a degree in order to help others. Again it’s vilifying something they know nothing about using stupidity to do so, as in M causes homosexuality. I earned a degree in Acountancy at Ariz. State, followed by work at Colorado U to get my masters. I worked two full time jobs or one full time and one part time to get thru, the motivation was not to earn BIG BUCKs but to become qualified to do what I had always wanted to do, work in hospital/health care administration. At no time was I required to take an Evil Philosophy class, the GB implies all must. I’ve studied philosophy on my own but taking a class was not a requirement.
Any yet, the WT broadcasts are all about money, contributing more to build 487,000 new KHs, 8,962,735 translation centers, and the $549,936,075,965 needed to complete Warrick. Now they’re not going to get all this loot from getting kids to give up their ice cream money or to donate all mom’s jewelry. It has to come out of salaries and most JWs live on much less than most people and have little education allowing them to jump to better paying jobs. Don’t get me started on the people at Bethal who are being tossed out after years and years of working for almost nothing and have no savings, no education and have not contributed to Social Security. It’s truly sad that good people with many talents have to forgo using those talents because they cannot go to college. Now if the parable of the Talents doesn’t come to mind….
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Free Thinker says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:08 am
Hello friends,
all that matters within the JW.ORG is “outward appearance”, the high-gloss yet shallow surface, “doing the right thing” (“right” being redefined as “being perfectly in line with JW.ORG-regulations”), political correctness, being “exemplary” (as defined by the JW.ORG), being “privileged”, being “good association” (as defined by the JW.ORG) etc. …
Is it hence surprising that individuals evaluated and gauged on the basis of suchlike meaningless, shallow, valueless – or even misleading – criteria turn out to be utterly unsuitable to forge a deep and truly meaningful relationship with? The top priority within the JW.ORG, its “Golden Calf”, its “Holy Cow”, its “Idol” is “Many field service hours”, “More field Service Hours” and “Yet more field Service Hours”. Do do do. Work work work. Be “eager”. Be “zealous”. “Exert yourself” as a “pioneer”. Do “increased service”. Do “not forsaking our meetings”. Read each wt and aw-magazine. Donate much. Work much. Do. Work. Run. Hasten. Exert yourself. Sacrifice yourself for the JW.ORG. Seek first the JW.ORG and its interests. All is but “Doing, working, effort, exertion, struggle, sweat, …”. Everything within the JW.ORG is about high-power, streamlined performance, about the big show, about being holier-than-thou, outshining others.
What kind of shallow “values” are these? It truly doesn’t require a degree in rocket science to be able to discern: Relationships forged on the basis of, and by the rules of suchlike “non-values” (cardboard- and hot air-values) are doomed to failure. It’s as simple as that. JW.ORG-values possess no “value”, no substance for real life. They are phantasies, phantoms, fictions, hot air bubbles. You can equally build your marriage on the “guiding values” of Alice in Wonderland, the little Tooth Fairy or Mickey Mouse. Maybe even better. My favorite: Lord of the Rings. Here you can learn a lot about “true fellowship”, friendship and sticking together (Sam carrying Frodo up Mt. Doom, for example). THAT has “true value & meaning” – but not “Is your future mate a pioneer – a Ministerial Servant – does he read each wt” and suchlike nonsense? JW – WAKE UP, and see the “true nature” of your GB-mandated “non-values” and what they really are: Less than nothing, a bunch of hogwash and humbug.
Greetings,
FT
Reply
Pow says:
January 11, 2016 at 10:33 am
You mean, it’s important to ask the really big questions BEFORE, marriage, like….what is your publisher hour average? If below 10, please explain. How many times a year do you Aux. Pio.? Have you been to Pioneer Service school? When? Why are you not now?
How long have you been appointed as.M.S., Eld. ? Please specify which. Bethel service?, any pervious reproof’s /restrictions? (Please note will be calling your C.O.B.E to check the files to verify). And then the tough one…..have you ever seen a pornograhic image or engaged in an act.of masterbation?
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Free Thinker says:
January 11, 2016 at 12:45 pm
No. Not at all. Forget about “hour average”, “theocratic status”, “MS/E”, Bethel, … all that b.s. These things are nothing but smokescreens & mirrors, of absolutey no value, and meaningless.
The questions to ask are: What kind of person is this? Is s/he truly …
-kind
-caring
-considerate
-faithful
-generous
-gentle
-reliable
-selfless
-stable
-tender
-thoughful
-understanding
-loving the other unconditionally, for what the other person TRULY is, not for satisfying some 3rd party ivory tower criteria.
How about …
-love of animals
-love of nature
-love of the fine arts
-not being dogmatic
-not being bossy
– …
And so on. THESE are the things that count and to look for (at least, to me).
IF, of course, someone wants to base his/her evaluation of the other person on such “non-values” as the ones prescribed by JW.ORG – sure, go ahead, go for it. But don’t be surprised if faster than the eye can flick you are trapped in a life- and loveless union that has NO substance, NO value and absolutey NO future.
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Meredith J says:
January 12, 2016 at 1:53 am
I could not agree with you more, except, you didn’t mention ‘get’s along with kids’. Although, through lack of experience this might be a bit hard to work out, but just see if they have time for someone else’s kids. That’s important. Really, how they treat others and it’s not just a front. Takes time to get to know someone properly.
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Caroline says:
January 12, 2016 at 4:12 am
@Meredith, when it comes to how do they get along with other people’s kids, a woman has to be really careful. Men who are pedophiles, target women with young kids.
anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:32 pm
@ Free Thinker
Wow! I got tired just reading that “exertion” post! Glad I’m not pushing the grindstone anymore!
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Free Thinker says:
January 12, 2016 at 9:55 am
Good 4 u. But u still do remember it though … right?
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 10:43 pm
Trying to forget that whole experience. 😉
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Alexandria R says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:33 am
I’ve just read all the comments posted about marriage. I want to add – sometimes it only takes one to break up a marriage. I have a sister in the ‘truth’ she always said she wouldn’t marry a brother with a smaller shoe size than her’s. Well, she married a brother with a smaller shoe size than her’s because she saw he is loving and loves her. They are doing well. I have a brother in the ‘truth’ who married when he was twenty years old and his wife was sixteen years old. They are now in their sixties, love each other and are happy and going strong. Then, there’s my niece – She was raised in the ‘truth.’ When she was nineteen years old she married a thirty four year old elder. He actually moved in with her and her parents before they married even though it made people mad. After six months they married, eventually they had two kids. After five years of marriage she fell in love with her supervisor at work and left her kids and husband for the other man. Her ex husband continues to live with her parents and the two kids. Sometimes divorce happens because of one person. Many times It only takes one to break up a marriage whether it’s in the ‘truth’ or not. If you see what I’m trying to say. The Youth Book doesn’t prepare anyone for anything.. Real life isn’t portrayed in the Youth Book.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 11, 2016 at 3:30 pm
@Alexandria R
I feel I need to offer an alternate Point of view in regard to your niece. It is really easy to blame the mate that cheats for ruining the marriage. The reality is that marriage is a partnership and that when one person cheats it is usually a symptom of other issues. To place all the blame on your niece is short-sighted in my opinion. If she fell in love with her supervisor at work it is partly because he gave her something that her husband did not. Cheating is not the best way to deal with marital issues – it takes communication and hard work – but if the one mate is unable or unwilling to put in the effort or make changes, then leaving the relationship (often by cheating) may be the only option for the other mate.
WS
Reply
Meredith J says:
January 12, 2016 at 1:48 am
I had a friend once who was in the truth who, just like me, came in with her husband. When she could not handle it any longer and her husband refused to accept her intolerance of the Watchtower and of his adherence to it, she committed adultery so that she could be free. I thought it was a sad sad situation to have to go to that kind of lengths to get peace. I wonder how many others have resorted to this desperate measure. It does not have God’s blessing I might add as it breaks one of the laws of the ten commandments.
Reply
Caroline says:
January 11, 2016 at 12:01 pm
@Alexandria R. That comment about your niece does not sound like the JW religion that I have been associated with for fifty years.
I have known people who got disfellowshipped for spending just one night together in the apartment they were going to share when it was two weeks before they were going to get married and somebody spotted his car in front of the apartment all night long.
I also know that if that elder was interested in a nineteen year old girl that there is no way that any normal congregation would have been okay with the two of them living together in the same house for six months before they got married, even if it was with her parents in the house. There is no way that those two could be watched twenty four seven.
Why was this elder not living in his own house? Why is he still living in his former in-laws’ house? That doesn’t make any sense either.
I think there’s a lot more to the story than that it just takes just one person to end a marriage. There was a reason that your niece left her husband and her kids.
Has it occurred to you that her husband is a real loser?
Reply
Alexandria R says:
January 11, 2016 at 4:11 pm
Caroline, I wonder about it to. I don’t know how they got away with it. My brother was an elder at the time. My niece says she was never physically or mentally attracted to her husband. My brother says the fact they didn’t get into trouble for immorality shows there was something wrong with his son in law. My brother and his wife live with their son in law and baby sit. I wonder about it to. How did they get away with that? I thought the truth must have changed. My brother stepped down as an elder to help his wife baby sit. His son in law was removed as an elder for not keeping his household in order. I wonder about it to.
Reply
Caroline says:
January 11, 2016 at 5:09 pm
Alexandria, I think your niece was under pressure to marry her husband since he was living in the same house etc. She was never given the chance to live her life and find someone that she really could have been attracted to. Nineteen was way to young for a girl like that to marry a man in his thirty’s.
Reply
Caroline says:
January 11, 2016 at 5:11 pm
Alexandria, what I meant by the age difference is that she didn’t have the wisdom to make her own choice with the guy living in the house like he was. To me, it seems like stalking on his part. Her parents should never have let him move into the house like they did and now they can’t get rid of him.
Reply
Alexandria R says:
January 11, 2016 at 7:27 pm
Caroline, I think you’re right. I remember my niece said, at the time, she hoped he would change his mind about marrying her. I think you got it right. She must have felt pressured. She says she will never live with her parents again. I feel that’s healthy. My brother is used to being the head. She used to get caught in the middle between her husband and her parents.
anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:40 pm
Almost sounds like an ‘arranged marriage’!
Doc Obvious says:
January 11, 2016 at 12:50 pm
I would have no kid read these books to answer intimate questions such as the ones addressed in those books. I think parents should help their kids with these type of questions. The one-size-fits-all Watchtower and its books are the main reason people have left the organization entirely.
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anonymous4 says:
January 11, 2016 at 11:43 pm
I’m going to write the definitive Life Manual. It will have 1 page. U open the cover, it says, “Sh*t happens. Good Luck.”
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Jarred Booth says:
January 12, 2016 at 12:25 am
YPA Volume 1 (2011) chapter 32: “How Can I Protect Myself From Sexual Predators?”
“Don’t send mixed messages. Avoid flirting or dressing provocatively. Such actions may send the message that you’re interested in getting physical—or at least that you wouldn’t object to it.” In other words, YPA suggests if you are raped while dressing WT unapproved, it is partly your fault. This contradicts what they say later in the article: “You are not to blame!”
“If you are a Christian, it is important that you speak to a congregation elder about what happened. The comforting words of a loving shepherd can assure you that as a victim of rape, you have not been defiled by someone else’s sin.” As usual, “sin” instead of “crime”. And they conveniently forget to mention that if the attacker is a JW and there was no second witness, nothing will be done.
“Speak to a congregation elder.” “I talked to a close friend.” “She told her parents about the abuse.” “Talking to God helped me.” “It might be wise to consult a physician.” “Keep a list of scriptures that can comfort you.” Incredible how nowhere in the article does it even mention the possibility of contacting the police. I guess Romans 13:3,4 doesn’t mean too much to the Governing Body.
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Winston Smith says:
January 12, 2016 at 5:25 am
Jarred, good analysis of the information in the YPA book. Also keep in mind that often a young woman has to “prove” to the elders that it was rape and not fornication. They may ask questions like “did you enjoy it?” and ask for other graphic details of the rape. Furthermore, the elders have zero training as counsellors or therapists and therefore have no idea on how to assist a person who is a victim of such a violent crime.
WS
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Jeni says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:19 am
THIS is exactly one of the reasons I chose the YPA book as my topic. Bad, bad, bad, advice all around. One needs to only look at the other posts on this site to see how Watchtower’s “report & pray” methods have caused harm to a number of members. Most notably the victims of sexual abuse who receive no real counseling or justice.
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Jarred Booth says:
January 12, 2016 at 7:59 pm
Glad you picked it. The first step towards me leaving the organization was boredom. Then one day I realized why. It hit me how empty the organization’s teachings were. Basically it all revolved around meetings, preaching, and prayer. I’d go to meetings to hear talks about going to meetings. I’d preach to try and convert people (thankfully I never succeeded) to bring them to meetings so they could hear talks about preaching and going to meetings. And prayer was to increase “spirituality” to be motivated to preach and go to meetings. And round and round it went.
Eventually I saw their teachings were not just boring, but even harmful at times. I don’t think I’ve looked at YPA since I left, but now that I’ve looked at it without the brainwashing effect, it’s easy to see how terrible the advice is. There’s a reason why “the world” makes people go to school for years and gives out diplomas as proof of qualification to teach children. Because a teacher can have a lifetime effect on a child, for good or bad. The Governing Body has NO QUALIFICATIONS to be able to teach children. And there are many experiences that testify to that.
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Art Fern says:
January 14, 2016 at 12:33 am
There we go blaming the victim, “You didn’t scream old enough, your fault”, “you dress too provocatively”
Of course none of this could apply to a child, and it shouldn’t apply to an adult either. A million studies have been completed and show rape and sexually assault of adults is an act of power over another person not sexual in nature. With Child Predators it is sexual of a very sick and twisted kind. Just another example of the WT using misinformation to reduce a complex issue to sin on the part of the victim.
Do you sometimes get the feeling that the GB intentionally takes a contrarian view on an issue to only be different that the rest of the world! And their audience is so misinformed and unread that they take it all in as inspired truth?
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The Friday Column: Questions Young People Ask – Answers That Don’t Work
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Posted on January 8, 2016
Since 1989, the Young People Ask series of books has been failing multiple generations of Witness adolescents
Since 1989, the Young People Ask series of books has been failing multiple generations of Witness adolescents
Growing up a Jehovah’s Witness is an experience that has shaped me in innumerable ways. To be fair, Watchtower’s influence on my young life did give me some benefit. Through my studies I developed reading skills and a genuine love of language at a young age.
I wasn’t afraid to speak in front of my class or to strangers, because I’d been doing talks at the Kingdom Hall and presentations in the field ministry for years. I even formed a few friendships that have lasted throughout my lifetime with peers I met at meetings. Aside from those few things though, I believe Watchtower’s teachings and policies did very little to prepare me for my adult life.
In 1989, Watchtower released the first edition of the book Questions Young People Ask Answers That Work, or the “YPA” book. I still remember being 7 years old and getting my copy at the District Convention. I was so excited to have a book “just for kids” that I could read.
Per my usual methods, I started perusing the book as soon as we got in the car – the pictures and chapter titles getting my attention straight away. There were chapters on parental conflict, time management, and even the great taboo of masturbation, all written with children and adolescents in mind. Though some of the topics were embarrassing, at that time I really believed the book would be able to help me answer any questions I had.
Instead, the opposite turned out to be true. The book was nothing but a propaganda piece with contents that did nothing but attempt to bolster my paranoia of the outside world.
All it did was sweep any real problems I might be having under the rug by offering the one-size-fits-all answer of prayer and guidance from elders for each and every one of them. Though it lacked any true substance, the YPA book soon became the go-to parenting guide at my house – a convenient tool for my parents to turn to when I was going through my teenage years, and a collection of often foolish advice that offered me no real support.
Looking back, I can see how Watchtower’s suggestions in this book and from the podium failed me in my life. The biggest problems for me lay in the areas of dating and marriage. By following the admonition to date with the intention of marriage and constantly using a chaperone, both in person and over the phone, at age 18 I found myself wed to a virtual stranger.
The truth is, though we had the blessing of congregation elders and our parents, my husband and I had never been allowed the time or privacy to get to know each other. At such a young age, frustration with real-life issues mixed with twisted Witness views on male headship, and the clashing of our personalities, led to the relationship becoming physically violent.
After a few attempts at fixing it, including getting some bad advice from the elders, and a situation requiring police intervention and a stay at a battered women’s shelter, I left Watchtower at age 19. Disfellowshipping and shunning soon followed.
The answers didn’t work.
My life experience and that of many of my peers leads me to wonder: Does Watchtower really care about kids?
I recently became aware of a second volume to the book of my youth, and decided to read the PDF download from JW.org. In it I find more of the same misguided nonsense that I grew up with: Witness children being counseled to avoid the world and follow Watchtower’s advice at all costs. Boys groomed to be family heads, while girls are encouraged to take a lesser role.
Reading the bible, praying and speaking to the elders are not the answers to every problem life throws at you
Reading the bible, praying and speaking to the elders are not the answers to every problem life throws at you
Education still takes the backseat to the preaching work. Homosexuality and its urges are described as “wrong desires,” and compared to rage as something that can be quelled. Youths are told to avoid “double lives” by limiting contact with school friends. Only one small section is devoted to eating disorders. And much to my dismay, the dating advice is the same: never be alone together and only date with the intention to marry.
This new volume even includes a questionnaire for both sexes where the man is to evaluate how well his intended “shows submissiveness” when he is deciding to pursue her. There is very little mention of seeking professional or legal help for any issue. The overall solution being offered to all problems remains the same: prayer and reliance on the guidance of congregation elders.
With such counsel being given, is it any wonder that Witness children worldwide are leaving the religion in hoards?
According to a 2008 study from Pew Research, only 37% of people raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses continue with the religion as adults. When you consider the many (a number of whom I’ve privately corresponded with) who stay just to keep the community and familial ties intact, one has to wonder how many stay true believers from childhood on?
It turns out, Watchtower isn’t so good at “inculcating” children as Deuteronomy 6:6-8 instructs. Instead, the organization seem to be setting kids up for failure and their often-inevitable exit from the religion.
So, where does that leave current Jehovah’s Witness children and teens? Between indoctrinated parents and Watchtower offering so little in the way of true guidance, many find themselves feeling overwhelmed and alone.
Fortunately, times have changed, and there are now a variety of ways to get help and direction. In developed lands, everything from help with continuing education, to health services, is easier to access than ever before. A simple Google search can provide links to a number of resources.
Most schools have a counselor or administrator that is willing to listen and offer guidance for life issues. There are toll-free hot-lines and community health programs that can help answer questions or simply provide a confidential way to discuss problems that may be troubling you. And of course, anyone who feels their safety is in danger can always contact a law enforcement officer.
Of course, the answers are rarely easy, but for many Jehovah’s Witness youths, just knowing real guidance is available is important. To any young personreading this article, please know: there really is a possibility for happiness outside of Watchtower. The struggles of life can be overcome, and true freedom from Watchtower’s undue influence is attainable.
jeni-signature4
Helpful Links:
United States:
National Eating Disorder Association (NEDA) http://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/find-help-support
1-800-931-2237
National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI)https://www.nami.org/#
Helpline : 800-950-6264
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration (SAMHSA)
National Helpline:1-800-662-HELP (4357)
TTY: 1-800-487-4889
Website: www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline
Suicide Prevention Lifeline
1-800-273-TALK (8255)
TTY: 1-800-799-4889
Website: www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org
US Department of Education
http://www.ed.gov/
United Kingdom:
Beat (Beating Eating Disorders)
https://www.b-eat.co.uk/
Helpline 0345 634 1414 Youthline 0345 634 7650
SANE Mental Health Helpline
0300 304 7000http://www.sane.org.uk/what_we_do/support/helpline/
Student Finance
https://www.gov.uk/browse/education/student-finance
National Union of Students
http://www.nus.org.uk/en/advice/money-and-funding/can-i-get-higher-education-funding-in-the-uk/
References:
http://www.pewforum.org/2008/02/01/chapter-2-changes-in-americans-religious-affiliation/
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/teenagers/young-people-ask-volume-2/#?insight[search_id]=acdd11fd-1927-4a2a-a8ce-3ab44e68aa12&insight[search_result_index]=1
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/teenagers/young-people-ask-volume-1/#?insight[search_id]=70e41d46-f1ea-4443-9c15-1225cb05300d&insight[search_result_index]=2
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Philadelphia Judges criticize Watchtower court tactics as “abusive.” →
243 Responses to The Friday Column: Questions Young People Ask – Answers That Don’t Work
← Older Comments
ruthlee says:
January 12, 2016 at 2:58 am
Umm some great comments here. Lets talk about sex in jw land. It’s the horns of a dilemma is it not? Basically they cannot deal with two people getting together for any reason can they. The end always has to justify the means. You have to fit a perfect profile or you don’t fit . That is such a daft assumption and makes for some very false marriages. Seeing as god instituted the arrangement surely having all these celibate dudes and frustrated sisters is not healthy. Even jews had bonkubines(concubines) so the women could fulfil their need of children. Jdubs are mainly made up of weirdos, deadbeats and dropouts so by definition have problems with sex and sexuality. No wonder they allow unhealthy men to prey on the kids and don’t remedy the situation. It seems to me if you ignore a healthy discussion on the basic needs of all humanity, nature has a way of taking the issue into her own hands. So they produce a crop of guilt ridden teenagers who have no means of relief and call it “self abuse”. They have a plethora of sham marriages (not all ) just to keep up appearances. And a bunch of sad sexless dead people who often turn quite nasty at the drop of a hat. Funny isn’t it, if you don’t believe in hell you create your own on earth. I tend to agree one should not experiment with sex as an immature teen but get on with qualifying for the real world. Trouble is the org do not encourage education as uni is a hotbed for sex. So they encourage pioneering which as we know leads to early inappropriate marriage and no job. Wisdom does not produce scared sexless or sex fuelled uncontrolled people, Ignoring peoples needs does.ruthlee
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 12, 2016 at 5:16 am
@ruthlee
Great comment – A concise analysis of the issues the JWs have with sex. To your point, when it comes to sex thinking people need to strike a reasonable balance.
WS
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 12, 2016 at 9:40 am
Re: Elders not being qualified therapists / counsellors.
It amazes me how, just by reading the bible, a person can feel like he / she is an expert on EVERYTHING.
Imagine the pilots of a 747 being incapacitated, and someone jumping up & saying, “I can land the plane! I’ve read the bible!!”
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:41 am
@A4
Great example!
WS
Reply
TeraG says:
January 12, 2016 at 9:41 am
My biggest problem growing up jw was finding other girls my age to be friends with. The congregation I grew up in only had 1 other kid in my age group but he was a boy and right there makes it an unacceptable close friend according to witness rules. I remember praying, no, pleading with god over and over that someone my age would move into my congregation. All the while I was without friends and the societies solution to my problem was stay away from bad influences(ehem, all the potential school mate friends I could’ve had) and form friends with older ones in the congregation if I had too. I loved the older ones, but come on, at a young age what older person likes playing tag, video games or barbies and can follow an intense pretend drama of who wants to go shopping with Ken that an 8 year olds mind drums up. It’s just not as enjoyable or possible to make the types of connections sought after with those not in ones age group that are so important for young kids growing up. Being raised JW sucked.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:08 am
Growing up JW is a mild form of child abuse.
Reply
Anon says:
January 13, 2016 at 12:57 pm
I hate it.. :( & i can’t wait to leave.
Reply
Art Fern says:
January 15, 2016 at 5:16 am
ANON, wish you the very best, my friend. Don’t allow yourself to feel alone, friendless and isolated, please connect with other Apostates for support. You will discover that contrary to the BS they have filled your head with, there are so many wonderful, giving and good people in the world. Get your education, use the god given talents, you have been told to bury and not develope. You have freedom and lots of people to meet. Best of Luck!
Reply
Art Fern says:
January 13, 2016 at 11:29 pm
All this isolation contributes to the social retardation so many have written about. The previous comments have been excellent. Dating is a need kids have for a million reasons, to develope self confidence, to begin to understand the opposite sex the different goals and motivations other people may have, to share in experiences a guy would ordinarily avoid such as concerts even opera as well as interests that a guy may have but not so much with a girl such as hiking, working on cars etc. We all have the need to see ourselves through others eyes, (looking glass imaging) interaction tells us what people consider our strengths as well as weak points we can work on. To restrict dating to official chaperoned formality with a sole reason being marriage is petty heavy stuff most 16-21 years olds would rather not get into. I probably had more fun with casual contact having a girl from school driving by to ask me if I wanted to browse a bookstore, see a movie or go with a pile of kids to a theme park than any formal arrangement.
I can see how this divide between worldly and JW kids limits the people you could date to a degree that panic might set in. You’re getting pushed about marriage to save you from messing up, but you might have just 2-3 people you could date and none of them produces an attraction, so where do you go?
This is just another way the WT produces conditions, you must live under, that are harmful to your happiness and a healthy mental outlook.
Reply
natty says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:24 am
You are too dry with nothing worthwhile to say.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:06 am
WTF???
Reply
Anon says:
January 13, 2016 at 12:58 pm
U need education
Reply
Art Fern says:
January 14, 2016 at 12:39 am
Natty, with all due respect do you sometimes use the label “VoiceofTruth”?
Reply
Covert Fade says:
January 14, 2016 at 3:41 am
@natty What does hydration have to do with this?
If you wish to engage with the article, come up with a detailed counter argument to the viewpoints and arguments it raises. You’ll find that if you do so in a respectful manner, people will engage likewise and the discussion will start.
Otherwise, if all you can do is throw childish insults, we will treat you accordingly.
Reply
Jeni says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:30 am
I just wanted to take a quick moment to thank everyone for their commentary on my piece. I almost decided to scrap the topic as I felt it may have been too generic. However, based on the comments here and the messages I’ve received through other channels, it seems I’ve hit a chord with readers.
To those of you commenting that your experiences were not like those of myself and some of the many others posting, all I can say is you are fortunate. Not every JW parent is so naive in raising their kids, and not every JW marriage is unhappy or mismatched. I have found that there are great differences in experience depending on which congregation you attended.
I can only give you my personal accounts, which are of a girl who grew up in a small (75 members at best) congregation in Nebraska. During my time as a member, the elders were very unquestioning and by-the-book on everything. Because it was such a small group, nothing went unnoticed. Everyone was accounted for. Nobody had any privacy or leeway. If you missed a meeting, they wanted to know why. If you reported less than 10 hours of service you were addressed about it. If you even spoke regularly to a member of the opposite sex, it was noted and monitored. For me, it was a very suffocating way of life.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:48 am
@Jeni
Thanks for the article and for sharing your personal experience growing up as a JW. I grew up as a JW in the Northeastern US and had a similar experience to the one you describe.
WS
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:14 am
What a nightmare. I was lucky, grew up in the suburbs of a big city.
Reply
Art Fern says:
January 14, 2016 at 12:45 am
Jeni, I made a comment solely about education and the GB asking for money, and I received a “Hold for Moderation”. Do you have any idea how a comment not too controversial with no name calling and having nothing to do with sex, received such a label?
Clearly I thought your article was excellent, I’ve put in hours reading each comment and responding way too much with my own. You wrote in such a way as to really motivate others to write of their feeling and experiences. Thank You!
Reply
Jen says:
January 12, 2016 at 11:20 pm
I do appreciate you acknowledge you gained something from the experience, and it seems like you really had some foolish people who were driving you to be a certain way…the young people book was something I remember getting when I was a teen. I devoured it and subsequently felt there was something wrong with me…I couldn’t subject myself to some of their rules and advice, but the things that did resonate were where they advocated for understanding in the Christian home…then go to the elders…there was some accountability for youths to show appreciation…and if you didn’t, you might have to talk with an older one…
I guess what I appreciate about what you write here is a longing for real meaty truth …not to be patronized. Many youths that have no rearing at all with anything spiritual( things of God) also have desires to do right, and have very intelligent parents that guide them to do so….what is sad, if they truly were looking to God for direction, they should have written a book ” parents, do not be exasperating your children, but continue teaching them the glorious things of God by your great example” or “don’t be a stupid idiot, get a real job, be a good provider and treat all in your family with the love of Christ” ….but ….that would have been Much too practical.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:21 am
Someone once made an observation that “Honor ur father & ur mother” is 1 of the 10 commandments, but there is no commandment ordering parents to honor their kids.
More evidence of that Bronze / Iron Age patriarchal, misogynistic, backwards, tribal, goat-herding mentality.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 9:09 am
A comedian once said that honoring your father and mother should not be automatic, but rather should be based on the parents’ performance.
WS
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 10:22 pm
LOL Good one.
Reply
Anon says:
January 13, 2016 at 1:00 pm
What I hate is that I probably have to get baptized so I could run away from all this mess. >_> UUGHH I just want my parents to realize everything.. but they’re so DUMB!
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 4:38 pm
@Anon,
Why do you feel that you HAVE to get baptized?
WS
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 10:27 pm
Maybe so he / she doesn’t get kicked outta the house. (Remember, Religious Freedom only works 1 Way with Jehovah’s Witnesses.) I would say, do what ya gotta do until u can get an education & get the hell outta there.
Reply
Covert Fade says:
January 14, 2016 at 3:37 am
Anon.
Whatever you do, do NOT get baptised.
From your comment I assume you are young and living with your parents? If so use this time to study, do really well at school, work out what career you want. When you come of age, if your parents will not allow you to live you own life, find yourself a job that will pay your bills and move out.
It may be that your parents never realise everything but do NOT let their actions dictate your future life.
Reply
Caroline says:
January 14, 2016 at 5:03 am
Dear Anon. I agree with everybody’s comments about not getting baptized. That is the worst thing you can do.
One thing you might do is ask them to prove that God chose the Organization in 1919. They won’t be able to do it. Ask them to find out what was being printed in 1919 so you can prove it to yourself what Jesus and Jehovah supposedly approved of when he chose his one and only organization to be his spokesman to mankind in that year. Ask them if the Organization was preaching the cross, Christmas and celebrating birthdays, then what could be wrong with those things now? Is new light, new light, or does it mean changes? Does the Bible change? If the “new light” is from God, then that new light should never change, i.e. the generation teaching.
If you have the 2012 Watchtower bound volume, you can take them to the September 15 study article called “You know Neither the Day Nor the Hour” and on page 25 paragraph 11, there is an out and out lie that the Watchtower printed when it said:
“Recall Jesus’ parables of the virgins and the talents. If the virgins or the slaves in those parables had known when the bridegroom or the master was arriving, they would not have needed to keep on the watch. But they did not know, so they needed to keep ready. Although the anointed had for decades looked to 1914 as a marked year, they did not clearly understand what would happen. When things did not take place as they expected, it could have looked as if the Bridegroom were delaying. One brother later recalled, “A few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October [1914].”
How you can prove this is a lie is to go to the “Jehovah’s Witnesses, Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom” book on page 133 in the last paragraph on that page and the footnote at the bottom of the page where it says that Russell taught that Jesus’ invisible presence had begun in 1874 and the Watchtower taught that until 1943.
So, the 2012 Watchtower article was clearly lying when it said that Watchtower Organization had been on the “watch” since way before 1914. They weren’t on the “watch” since they taught until 1943 that Jesus had already been present since 1874. They missed the appointment.
Have your parents answer that for you. Maybe then they might see how the Watchtower likes to rewrite history and thus, are liars.
Reply
Robert67 says:
January 14, 2016 at 9:36 am
All of these were recycled teachings from other denominations in Christendom that pre date Russels “prophecies” by decades. This entire organization as proved by their libraries at headquarters is nothing, but a cut and paste version of other denominations in order to move the product with free mentally enslaved labor. Thank God for the Internet, the truth truly has set us free, words of a real prophet.
Reply
dee says:
January 14, 2016 at 3:40 pm
An elder once told me that I shouldn’t be too concerned about getting married because sex is just like the urge you feel to eat when you get hungry, it is nothing more than that. This comment came from an elder who used to be a C.O.and who was married for some time with three children……….apparently his sex life and marriage weren’t so great…….I wonder what he tells his children.
Reply
Art Fern says:
January 15, 2016 at 5:38 am
The Elder has mush for brains. It makes me a little angry that a person others come to for advice has such a twisted opinion of sexual intimacy. But on the other hand I feel sorry for what he has missed in his marriage. Couples that are together solely for sex soon tire of each other. Those who have such love for each other and a strong committment to their marriage, that they place the happiness of their spouse above their own, can enjoy a lasting and beautiful experience being intimate. And it will never gets old or boring. It’s a package, holding hands, holding each other as well as sex, and it’s NICE.
That’s what a single guy who was married for 20+ years (good but for the last 3) thinks
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:25 am
Re: Anon & baptism
I certainly would not ENCOURAGE Anon to get baptized. But he / she needs to think of his / her future. Having a roof above & food to eat while getting a proper post-secondary education, or at least a DECENT job (NON-minimum wage, with benefits & advancement). Family (parental) friction could interfere with that process. NOT getting baptized could lead to such friction. Now, of course, this depends on how fanatical the parents are. If they’re not that insistent, then hopefully no worries. But if there’s a lot of pressure, then, like I said, do what ya gotta do. After all, Baptism is meaningless. It’s just a dunk in a pool. I don’t know about u, but taking a dip has never changed my life. It’s what’s inside that counts. If u have to be a phoney S.O.B. for a few years, who cares? Play along. We’re talking SURVIVAL here. I don’t judge. & who knows, Anon may get so good at it, he / she may have a successful career in show business. Keep those options open. 😉
Reply
Matias says:
January 15, 2016 at 7:57 am
I have found a way to fight the watchtower. Take all the magazines in their carts and throw them away. It might seem childish, but is a solid way of making the watchtower lose money. I took 30 today. I bet I’ll make them lose a few hundred dollars over the course of the year.
It would be nice to read an article about creative ways of fighting the watchtower
Reply
Join-Stay25Yrs-Leave says:
January 15, 2016 at 11:38 am
I can understand why you might want to do that. But it’s a bit more than childish, it’s maladjusted. It is also criminal. Nor is it a solid way of accomplishing anything other than proving to JWs that “apostates” are “mentally diseased. It puts you at risk of trouble with the authorities, too. You might want to find a more positive way to battle the WT.
Reply
Anon says:
January 15, 2016 at 12:20 pm
Am I the only one who interpreted the JW’s policy of never date alone as never be in a private places i.e. motel rooms, empty homes, etc? Even before I awoke, I’d go out with a few JW girls in my adolescence w/o chaperone because as far as I was concerned whether we were in a theater, dinner, or park, as long as we stayed in a public places, we were never “alone.”
Reply
Covert Fade says:
January 15, 2016 at 1:10 pm
I encountered that as the predominant rule as well, but found that this tended to vary from congregation to congregation. My girlfriends and the “rules” they followed ranged from “my brother must be no less than 3 feet from us at all times” (that relationship didn’t last long) all the way to girls who were happy to chill out with me alone in a house together (though we didn’t advertise that.)
I suspect there is wild and uneven variation on the exact strictness of the rules, depending on the underlying culture of the congregation.
Reply
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← The Friday Column: Questions Young People Ask – Answers That Don’t Work
The Friday Column: Shunning – a toxic practice in which EVERYONE ultimately loses →
Philadelphia Judges criticize Watchtower court tactics as “abusive.”
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Posted on January 12, 2016
Watchtower has disgraced itself in a child abuse case before the trial has even begun
Watchtower has disgraced itself in a child abuse case before the trial has even begun
It seems that one can hardly swing a dead Seven Headed Wild Beast on the internet these days without hitting a fresh report of Watchtower having to once again defend its handling of child abuse in court.
I submit that there are three main reasons for this:
One: Via a combination of undue influence, rigid adherence to laws devised from ethically out-dated and scholarly dubious scriptural interpretation, and plain old downright negligence, Watchtower has created an environment in its congregations that was described as “a perfect storm for abuse” by a Senior Council for a Royal Commission on the subject.
Two: Growing numbers of activists and, even more significantly, brave abuse survivors themselves, have been tirelessly dragging a spotlight onto injustices and transgressions that Watchtower has desperately tried to keep hidden.
Three: Partly as a result of the above, and partly because good journalists understand that their craft is at its best when it gives voice to the wronged, and holds to account those who have wronged them, the media is increasingly covering this issue. In recent years, a number of professional, credible journalists have started to dig deep into Watchtower’s hidden secrets. Journalists like Trey Bundy.
Bundy has been following Watchtower for a while now, documenting in careful detail the results of his investigations for Reveal News, an Emmy-nominated organization specializing in credible, fact-checked, investigative journalism.
Now, Bundy has published news of yet another Watchtower child abuse story. But this report is a little different: the trial hasn’t even happened yet, and already Watchtower has rushed to disgrace itself.
Bundy documents an upcoming case first brought against Watchtower in 2013 by Stephanie Fessler. According to Fessler, she was abused by a middle-aged Jehovah’s Witness woman some 30 to 50 times from the ages of 14 to 16.
The allegations take a painfully familiar route: it appears Watchtower have admitted that they knew about it; that they didn’t report it, and Fessler has therefore claimed that Watchtower’s policy of non-reporting enabled her abuse. You can read more details of Fessler’s account here.
But that’s not where the current issue lies.
According to Bundy’s report, Watchtower tried to have the case moved from Philadelphia to York county. Why?
Bundy reports “Watchtower argued that holding the trial in Philadelphia would burden witnesses who would have to travel to testify.”
That might almost sound reasonable… unless you know that many of the witnesses apparently live far closer to Philadelphia than to York county. And also that York County apparently has the largest backlog of civil cases in Pennsylvania.
In other words, this was apparently nothing but a shameless attempt by Watchtower to significantly delay what appears to be a compelling case against it for shielding a pedophile from justice.
This was certainly the opinion of the judges who ruled on Watchtower’s request to move to York County. They labelled this tactic “abusive,” and judged it to be nothing more than a “last-minute gambit to delay trial.”
“The facts strongly suggest that the motion to transfer venue was the product of bad-faith collaboration between the Congregations and the four York County witnesses” writes Judge Patricia Jenkins.
One imagines that the trial itself, now safely gathering steam, will not go much better for the already beleaguered Watchtower.
Bundy’s article then goes on to put this event into context against a long history of such behavior from the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. I’d urge to you read it, and to keep following Bundy’s excellent work, both on this story and in general. The world of journalism needs more people like him.
Watchtower likes to dismiss any mention of their failure to act on instances of child abuse in their organisation as “apostate lies,” rebutting the claims as mere stories made up by disgruntled former members.
However, the growing mountain of evidence from credible, responsible news sources, legal court cases and transparent, professional Government investigations shows that someone is indeed lying.
And it’s not the “apostates.”
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Further reading…
◾Reveal: Another judge criticizes Jehovah’s Witnesses’ court tactics
◾Stephen Lett slams “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” concerning child abuse record
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
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137 Responses to Philadelphia Judges criticize Watchtower court tactics as “abusive.”
Newer Comments →
James Broughton says:
January 12, 2016 at 4:45 am
“The Truth goes marching on”. The article makes compelling reading and I am so grateful for investigative journalism based on a genuine desire to expose wrongdoing in whatever source. I wonder how many Witnesses or those studying with them actually take the time and effort to do proper research in what claims to be God’s organisation?
Reply
Alan says:
January 12, 2016 at 5:04 am
To James Broughton, your comment was posted at the same time as mine. I live in Australia. I watched progress from here. It’s damn painful. I learnt about God through this religion and still believe. I can’t possibly go door to door, however, and promote their doctrine. I know that all churches have a similar problem with regard to this. I wish you well and hope you keep your faith in God. I know and understand why men like Lloyd Evans and Paul Grundy now consider themselves as agnostics. I don’t agree with them on that level but that doesn’t change the fact that these men are doing a good thing for the sake of children. They’re worthy of respect. Alan
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John Baptist says:
January 12, 2016 at 5:49 am
No they don’t when they are schooled under Cult tactics. But alas Google to the rescue to tell the truth. So would this then make Google a apostate as well? Lol
Reply
EverydayExplorer says:
January 12, 2016 at 6:02 am
That’s a very stimulating question, John Baptist. I’m going to keep the ‘Is Google an apostate?’ angle in mind when I next engage in a debate with our JW family members about so-called ‘apostate’ and/or ‘wordly lies’ about the Watchtower’s cover-up of sexual abuse. Thanks!
Reply
EverydayExplorer says:
January 12, 2016 at 6:04 am
* ‘worldly’, of course. Tut.
Reply
Caltanzee says:
January 12, 2016 at 4:40 pm
Very good point you make John Baptist ! Two weeks ago I sent a very telling video to a pioneer friend who keeps in contact with me through wattsap..Her reaction was, that’s coming from apostates who no longer believe in Jehovah’s promises…so when I got this latest news in my Google news inbox.I forwarded it to her, telling her this is not from apostates, but from a reliable source of information that’s dealing with real court cases against the secret wrong doings in the organization..Guess what !! She immediately replied that she cannot be distracted from the ministry by disheartening news.in other words she choose to blindly ignore the eminent dangers..she prefer to stay and drink the cool aid.So just as the leaders trys to sweep systemic problems under the rug.so is deeply entrenched jw members.They hear of the badness.They see the badness, but prefer to go along an take the fateful ride on the sinking ship.
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Wanderer says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:34 pm
How did that work out at the Neurenberg trials? Guilt by association!
That attitude makes me sick, the JW’s are the first to get on their high horse and point their fingers at any other religion, when the tables are turned its apostate lies even though it is being reported by credible sources not “apostates”.
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Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 8:40 am
The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree: hypocrisy breeds hypocrisy.
WS
EverydayExplorer says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:30 am
I think that’s very positive, Caltanzee. Your pioneer friend has significantly shifted her response, thanks to your action. That’s progress. Respect!
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Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 8:48 am
@Caltanzee,
Your friend prefers lies over truth. If she accepts factual reporting then she must deal with dissonance it creates. If she out of hand dismisses it, she can avoid the dissonance. It’s a form of intellectual avoidance.
Unfortunately, attitudes like this perpetuate a corrupt system. Per the old saying: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men (and women) to do nothing.”
WS
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peggy says:
January 14, 2016 at 11:32 am
Some time back I told my sister about the abuse as reported in actual court cases. She responded the same. First the reports are apostate lies, then she can’t be distracted from her focus on persecution in Russia. She is stuck on the ride, too.
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MARS says:
January 13, 2016 at 10:20 am
In the 1970s’ 80’s I saw some that any kind of researching outside of WT liturature was discoraged , that was in the hayday of Silent Lambs newsletters , I did get a subscription when I was a witness teenager to that newsletter. The latter problem is if you showed that newsletter to a witness friend , its likely you’d be reported on to the Elders for reading apostate materials. Unlike today with internet so much info their , its easy to look , but for some witnesses nothing has changed.
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Alan says:
January 12, 2016 at 4:51 am
I can understand the concerns of groups like this disclosing such atrocities. I know that many brothers and sisters would agree. What I really marvel at is when these stories are permeated across websites like this it is viewed as nothing more than apostate lies. I’ve played a few talks to faithful brothers given by Samuel Herd, David Splane and Stephen Lett. They’ll only believe these men no matter what. This is Jehovahs channel of truth. Everything outside of what they say is satanic and propaganda driven by the world of Saran. Heaven forbid if the satanic world that the information is coming from is correct anyway.
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JBob says:
January 12, 2016 at 7:54 am
@Alan, yup, if I go to a relative stating I read about the abuse on an “apostate” website, naturally, it gets denied, but it’s rather difficult to deny news reports from investigative sources. However, what many use as defensive claim is that “this fits with foretold end-times signs”–‘the love of many would cool down’. Does that address the issue? No, and that is where the undue influence and high-control damages.
Individuals see “bad things” happening and are not empowered to take action to counter or discourage them because doing so is perceived by Watchtower leadership as a presumptive nature or rebellious one. I consider it being passenger locked in a car driven by a DUI/DWI driver. Yet, to get out of the circumstances, you realize you will have a damaging impact on yourself. Take out the driver and the auto might careen out-of-control into a tree, unlock a door and bail out, you get some bruises and losses, too. The latter seems to be the sane, yet painful choice of many.
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Meredith J says:
January 12, 2016 at 8:45 pm
And don’t forget the other comment is “But there are pedophiles in all religions”. As if that makes it nothing to get upset about. Oh they are so cool aren’t they? And I am a foul mouthed crazy ‘apostate’. Yeah right.
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Covert Fade says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:29 am
That’s an argument that really annoys me.
This isn’t about whether there are Paedophiles in Watchtower, this is about how Watchtower DEALS with those Paedophiles.
In fairness, I think a lot of the R&F parrot off these defences because that’s what they were told when they maybe asked an elder about it, and never actually gave any thought to the answer they got.
It doesn’t excuse their behaviour as such, but I don’t think most R&F “know” these excuses are BS. Their cognitive dissonance just eagerly soaked up any excuse they could find so as not to have to address the problem.
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Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 8:54 am
@JBob,
Great analogy about being in the car with the drunk driver. When I left, it did feel like I had just jumped from a moving vehicle.
WS
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Alan says:
January 12, 2016 at 5:19 am
To add further to my previous comments, I hope that others support the effort to change what’s going on within the organisation. If only people knew that it’s not completely run by “the faithful and discreet slave”. It has a massive legal team protecting it.
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EverydayExplorer says:
January 12, 2016 at 5:55 am
Thanks, Covert Fade. Fine piece.
Agree that the increase in joining-up-the-dots media scrutiny on Watchtower’s inhumane policies on handling allegations and confessions of child abuse is extremely heartening.
Let’s keep on getting the message out there, fellow activists all. Step by step, we are succeeding in demanding the protection that children and vulnerable people in the Watchtower deserve.
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EverydayExplorer says:
January 12, 2016 at 5:55 am
Thanks, Covert Fade. Fine piece.
Agree that the increase in joining-up-the-dots media scrutiny on Watchtower’s inhumane policies on handling allegations and confessions of child abuse is extremely heartening.
Let’s keep on getting the message out there, fellow activists all. Step by step, we are succeeding in demanding the protection that children and vulnerable people in the Watchtower deserve.
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EverydayExplorer says:
January 12, 2016 at 5:55 am
Thanks, Covert Fade. Fine piece.
Agree that the increase in joining-up-the-dots media scrutiny on Watchtower’s inhumane policies on handling allegations and confessions of child abuse is extremely heartening.
Let’s keep on getting the message out there, fellow activists all. Step by step, we are succeeding in demanding the protection that children and vulnerable people in the Watchtower deserve.
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Winston Smith says:
January 12, 2016 at 6:00 am
Great article Covert Fade. Good to see this issue getting more press coverage here in the States. Hopefully this will help more folks to wake up from the Warchtower delusion. The org can claim “apostate lies” all they want, but as more cases like this come to light, their claim will be shown to be nothing more than rhetoric.
They could avoid a lot of the bad press if they just came forward and humbly acknowledged the errors they made in the past and that they will be implementing changes. But since humility is not their strong suit, I doubt that will ever happen. In today’s world of information, the more an institution like Watchtower tries to hide something, the more it seems to come to light. Perhaps they will be given enough rope to proverbially hang themselves.
As a side point, your metaphor of swinging a seven-headed wild beast, made me think “seven headed wild beast and seven members on the GB…hmmm.” Coincidence I am sure.
WS
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Covert Fade says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:00 am
The problem WT have is that they’ve nailed the colours to the mast: “THESE-ARE-ALL-LIES!”
To backtrack on that would create an explosion of cognitive dissonance and awkward questions from the rank and file, even from people so indoctrinated and used to New Light as JW’s.
Then again, if they DON’T backtrack it’s going to keep getting worse for them in legal, financial and PR terms.
“Hello wild dog. Let me grab your ears…”
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Covert Fade says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:01 am
Also, which member of the GB gets to be the drunken hooker ontop of the beast? 😀
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Tara says:
January 13, 2016 at 7:57 am
I vote T3 but then again Jackson could do a great take on Frankenfurter.
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Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 8:56 am
Maybe they are taking turns steering the great beast
WS
Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 9:01 am
“The Great Beast” reminds me a bit of Moby Dick: “To the last, I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart, I stab at thee; for hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee.”
(As a side point I know there are a few Star Trek fans out there – what famous TOS character made that statement in one of the movies?)
WS
Tara says:
January 13, 2016 at 8:46 pm
Khan
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 11:13 pm
Too easy. 😉
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 11:20 pm
Little known fact: Khan was actually addressing those words to Anthony Morris III, after being criticized by the latter for wearing pants that were too tight.
Didn’t mention the bare chest though…So sexy.
Will says:
January 12, 2016 at 4:39 pm
Even if they decided to now admit mistakes and apologize, it’s too late. At this point, it would be insincere.
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Sarah says:
January 12, 2016 at 6:05 am
Thanks, Covertfade. The ‘legal’ tactics of the WT organisation needs to be exposed. It’s hardly Christian. In my own case, which I took as a lay litigant, WT legal department took every step they could think of to get my case struck out. They succeeded in the end but not before the Irish Supreme Court ruled that I had been injured by the ‘unlawful activity’ of the organisation. My case was ruled statute barred.
The judge asked the defendants, WT, to take notice of the ruling but WT did nothing about the unlawful activity and it still remains part of the religion.
So although WT know they are in the wrong they will still defend their wrong course of action using any legal tactic they can think of.
But thanks to your sort of reporting it might change one day.
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MARS says:
January 12, 2016 at 6:58 am
The Watchtower has lost all credibility on an international front . Unless policy changes come into reality, the sect will always suffer.
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Juli says:
January 12, 2016 at 7:14 am
Great article Covert Fade. JW Survey is on top of everything. I love all of your articles. Thank you for bringing this to everyone’s attention. I’m glad the judge in this case could see through the Watchtower’s deceit straight away. It seems 2016 is going to be a very busy year for this cult and I couldn’t be happier. Too bad the individuals that concealed these crimes won’t be charged separately as well. This abuse is disgusting and out of control. Thanks again!
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isawthelight says:
January 12, 2016 at 7:50 am
Reality will catch up with these deceiving old men in Brooklyn- Satan is indeed their God. They have gotten to believe a lie as the bible says. They are an insult to God. He indeed does not even know them. A good question to ask yourself is, what has the watchtower done for anybody but themselves? A cult with 8 million mentally diseased followers. A mind is a sad thing to lose. The biggest losers are the children and families.
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Rowland Nelken says:
January 12, 2016 at 8:26 am
Excellent piece , Covert Fade. It must be time for some ‘New Light’ whereby to bin the 2 Witness rule.
Slagging off apostates, delaying procedures, not turning up at court, hoping that zero communication with the media will enable to story to die, will, surely soon run their course.
The stories keep on coming. Watchtower, fortunately, is on a a mega losing streak.
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Doc Obvious says:
January 12, 2016 at 8:38 am
Can’t fix stupid. That’s all I have say about that.
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agatha says:
January 12, 2016 at 8:42 am
perfecto y clarito
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Big B says:
January 12, 2016 at 8:49 am
Another informative article, thanks again for the “new light” Covert Fade;
To Alan who writes,”If only people knew that it’s not completely run by “the faithful and discreet slave”. It has a massive legal team protecting it”. My experience has shown me that the seven mental midgets are ‘definitely’ in charge and the legal team does not have the authority to act independently, but receive their marching orders from the faithful slave. The slave are first informed of the situation and they are advised as to the legal ramifications of different scenarios by their shyster lawyers and then they are ‘released’ to do what is best for the Watchtower.
I have derived this experience from over 55 years as a former J.W. that has happily since faded. But as has been said it’s the victims of child abuse that suffer.
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ruthlee says:
January 12, 2016 at 9:16 am
axe, axe, axe that tree. Chop it down and let the prisoners free. What exactly are watchtower protecting with their fancy lawyers? Reputation, finances, the bible or god? Whatever it is they are trying to salvage they are doing a rubbish job. ruthlee
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Mama Joy says:
January 12, 2016 at 9:49 am
Abuse is rampant in the Organization….. It happens and is ignored while the individual is still a JW. Active JWs accuse the perpetrator….. When nothing is done to help them, they leave. Hence becoming ex-JWs who take action against their inaction.
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anonymous4 says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:06 am
Thanx for that heartening info.
The Watchtower Brainwashing & Trickery Society’s reputation is beginning to spread like a cancer.
They truly are Satan’s Organization.
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Big B says:
January 12, 2016 at 11:45 am
“They truly are Satan’s Organization”.
Since their outing as a N.G.O. (non-governmental organization) member of the United Nations they have had the following misfortunes befall them;
1. loss of membership,
2. appreciable loss of contributions for their world-wide work,
3. a loss of international respect,
4. an apparent loss of countless court cases that show bad faith and lack of concern for victims of child abuse,
5. a loss of credibility such that a “mole”, inside the world H.Q., has leaked information to this forum
regarding new policy changes among other information,
6. a complete loss of trustworthiness among those who have already distanced themselves from this cult as well as those savvy enough to research their misinformation and double-speak on the internet.
Yes, their downfall is coming and it’s approaching faster than a speeding bullet. For example, what if the U.S. government decides, after much written complaint, to have congressional hearings on them? The revelation of their cover-ups will flip the light switch on these cockroaches so everyone will see them for who and what they are. Then let the ‘unfaithful and indiscreet’ slave run for cover.
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Pow says:
January 12, 2016 at 11:51 am
This is kinda like the Bill Cosby case but on a global scale…deny, deny, deny..as the evidence keeps mounting. What is, or should be most troubling to regular j.w.s is the fact that the organization is prepared to lie, lie, lie to attempt to save face, and really, is it just in child abuse cases this happens? Where else? How about our history, let’s be truthful, 1914, Rutherford, Greenlee, Beth-Sarim, Faithful slave, spirit anointing, 607 & the 2520 yrs.., the great crowd, contributed moneys, blood, pyramid, and so on…We have told alot of lies and half truths…unfortunately, this is just another example, but it definitely is the one that’s getting traction in the public, because does any non witness give a rats-ass on whether Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 or 587?
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Doc Obvious says:
January 12, 2016 at 1:17 pm
@Pow — Only history buffs care about when Jerusalem was destroyed. My life is not hanging on dates. JW’s care about 607 BCE. Everyone else believe historians in 587 BCE.
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Pow says:
January 12, 2016 at 1:53 pm
@Doc Obvious
Excally, it’s just a date in history, but for JWs it’s as pivotal to the theology as who really is Jesus, and since at least the 1970s the organization has went to great lengths to suppress any discussion concerning the facts, …the point is, for an organization that is supposed to be the “truth” we don’t always tell the whole truth,
And as it relates to the article at hand, there is under current of thought that we tell the truth even when it’s not and can be proved that it’s untrue. Our own little religious paradox.
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Tara says:
January 12, 2016 at 4:44 pm
Funny you should mention 607. The talk on Sunday was on the Messiah. I went for the talk just to let people see my face. I wish I hadn’t… well, maybe it was a good thing. One of those whom I would call a friend was giving the talk. He is an MS. I wasn’t paying too much attention – glazed eyes, head lolling back every now and then… but then he started on 607 and I began to listen…. he blaa blaa’d on about it being the amazing date and the math that brought us to 1914 and Christ being enthroned…. it was at this point that I knew the final nail in the coffin had been hammered home for me. I came home and actually cried. I cried because this was a friend who, from the platform was telling others this was all real, honest to god, hand on my heart truth…. I know it’s not. It really destroyed me inside that lie after lie after lie is being streamed from the platform and the innocent bobbleheads are lapping it up like a cat with the cream… I can’t go back now. It really broke my heart that it was this person who hammered said nail home. I can never tell him. I think he knew something was wrong because he texted me later asking if I was ok. What do you say? No sorry you just lied to the whole cong. and they fell for it… but thats ok I will continue to be there at the meetings devouring your every word. To be honest… now maybe only UK peeps out here will understand this… how did you feel when you found out that Jimmy Savile was a kiddy fiddler? remember how we watched him on a Saturday and wished it was you who he was fixing things for…. well Sunday was like that for me. It was a part of my innocence completely shattered. I still feel sad that it was a friend who did it.
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Tara says:
January 13, 2016 at 8:47 pm
Pssst – I’m still in moderation guys… just saying.
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J says:
January 12, 2016 at 3:50 pm
Our CO was just saying last night how we must not trust the media…and how propaganda is bad…LOL!
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anonymous4 says:
January 12, 2016 at 6:49 pm
…Sounds like they’re getting nervous.
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Scrubmaster says:
January 13, 2016 at 9:20 am
Yelp and if the media was talking about the Catholic Church or another organization, all of a sudden the media could be trusted. The organization has really created this atmosphere in which any bad reporting against the org is apostate or persecution. But on the flip side if the news is good about the org, then all of a sudden it is NOT media propaganda and can be trusted.
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Wanderer says:
January 14, 2016 at 10:09 pm
@J “they must not trust the media and their propaganda”
They are in the media now, they have their own tv station with their own propaganda. The hand of God making a hurricane deliver sand. The worldly Scandinavian event coordinator praising the org for being so nice so nice when they hired the convention centre she works at. Cartoon characters giving their pocket money to the org, the list goes on.
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Grace says:
January 12, 2016 at 8:47 pm
It would be interesting to know how many lawsuits are pending against the Watchtower at this moment in time. So far this is all that I have read lately, maybe there are more with other firms.
Zalkin Law Firm: 16
Kathleen Hallisey: 10
Australian Royal Commission findings: around 100-200? (not sure of the exact amount that will be redressed)
Anyway if each are settled, that would add up to something spectacular. I hope that one of the Law Firms will try to get one of the GB to testify in court again. At least they should try. $13 million was a big chunk, bigger than any settlement that I have read so far. It’s so good to see their dirty tricks being exposed to the public.
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Justice says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:36 pm
If, given that it is correct, and considering Watchtowers previous antics regarding gag orders, it is clearly unscriptural to delay justice for ones own gain.
It is quite obvious that the Watchtower has either put its head in the sand or more disturbingly deliberately put its own interests ahead of child abuse victims (perhaps both), the latter becoming ever more apparent considering the non apostates lies. Quite simply devious is the word I’d use.
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Justice says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:45 pm
I hasten to add, not only are gag orders unscriptural and the tactical delaying of court hearings but, and it gets right down to the nub of it, it’s not loving, and even if you say they are apostates they remain your neighbor.
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Justice says:
January 12, 2016 at 10:55 pm
And lastly, (fury starting to vent), did they consider the victims circumstances when they requested the trial be moved to another jurisdiction though knowing she was an actual victim?, how loving.
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Justice says:
January 12, 2016 at 11:37 pm
Reveal the database Watchtower, you have thousands of known (only to you) peadophiles in your congregations, you are putting children at risk.
You have your hand on your heart but the inside of the cup is dirty.
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Kl says:
January 13, 2016 at 12:07 am
Great article! Personally I don’t believe there is more child abuse in the organisation than in other places in the world. The point is that the organisation showed gross negligence in the handling of such cases and refuses to apologise or recognise how it’s added to the victims suffering. One of the great debate tactics the organisation uses is to change the other persons argument! “Claiming that apostates a branding Jehovah’s witnesses as a bunch of pedophiles.” This is besides the point and is not exactly what people are saying. The point is that the JW internal structure and regulations failed to report child abuse to the authorities and the organisation therefore aided and facilitated pedophiles in the continued abuse of victims. Apologise and stop sweeping things under the rug!
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Gary says:
January 13, 2016 at 12:43 am
It would be interesting to see the ratio per head of population in regards of peadopilia
Personally I do think it’s much worse as the organisation makes the claim it is Gods mouth piece and therefore has silenced victims with this theocratic, authoritative aurgement (a bully) and has been vocally critical of other organisations.
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 2:42 am
I agree. Being a Pedophile’s Paradise, I’m sure it ATTRACTS molesters from all around.
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Covert Fade says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:39 am
Well if you take the Australian figures as an example, since 1950 they’ve had 1006 abusers reported internally (never reported to authorities) and currently have 778 congregations.
Now if one assumes there have always been 778 congregations since 1950 (there have not, so we are being more generous than WT deserves here) and assuming a 70 year lifespan, than potentially every congregation in Australia has at some point had it’s very own pet paedophile. Some have even had two.
Plus according to Watchtower’s own admission they get around 4 extra reports a month, so every year around 40 more Australian congregations get another molester.
tldr; Yes, per head of population they have a massive problem.
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 4:01 am
Seems they’re just bursting at the seams.
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Pow says:
January 13, 2016 at 10:52 am
Nice point,
And I will add, it’s one thing to have a propensity for a problem, it’s another to have an opportunity. Think of the damage a invasive species can wreck on a new environment. That’s why the Catholic Church, Watchtower, and others have come under special scrutiny as they have many times over created an environment were a pedophile can offend again and again with near immunity. That can be contrasted with other high profile cases like Penn st. U., or BBC. however those were isolated cases involving perhaps one individual exploiting their opportunity,
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:31 pm
The fact is that most cases don’t get reported. I know from discussion with elders and victims here in Australia that this is the tip of the iceberg, but I was still staggered at the number produced but the ARC, not least of all because over half of these were proven paedophiles.
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Justice says:
January 13, 2016 at 12:08 am
(Apostate lies),
An apostate is an apostate when an apostate lies.
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 2:58 am
I used to be uncomfortable with the term “apostate”, as it is a biblical, & JW term, thus a ‘label’, & a negative 1 at that. I’ve gotten used to it, but it is still a rather dry term. I propose a secondary, informal term: Fifth Column.
Long live the Fifth Column!
Down with the WT Whore!
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Gary says:
January 13, 2016 at 4:46 am
, we acknowelge what is truthful.
This clergy/laity nonsense is a mischief and is used, has been used, to protect themselves.
It is apparent that the use of the word apostate is another nonsense used to stereotype, and has been used, to dismiss those with a genuine grievance. That is utterly contemptuous and I throughly disagree with their actions.
As regards belief we are all equal, not so over in animal farm, I don’t have a grievance about that but don’t P down my back and tell me it’s raining especially when children are being abused and your at the centre of it.
Shoddy work Watchtower.
Opening eyes and education, many thanks
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Gary says:
January 13, 2016 at 2:01 am
How much Watchtower did the clergy/laity confidentiality clause protect you?
Give Gods things to God and the law to the law.
You are a spiritual chameleon.
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 2:47 am
I don’t know what Unholy thing the GB’s & their Lawyers’ mothers slept with under a full moon, but they (the mothers) owe us all an apology.
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ruthlee says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:09 am
In the good old bad old days when my dad was done over by an elder and fleeced of his money he was told you cannot go to court just let yourself be wronged and wait on J. Ha ha ha, dad is now pushing up daisies and i’m still waiting on jah. My point is why don’t the watchtower take a good swig of their own medicine and let themselves be wronged (for god’s sake) Just pay the blood money accept they prefer the company of a child rapist to a child, and start again. They will never wipe the slate clean but a little thing like the collective conscience may have a little salve rubbed on it. Does it really take the world’s brains and consciences to see justice served? Does it have to come to the theatre of the court to play out such dereliction of duty? Talk about pride before a crash. How can any one say that a child is not worth the cost of honour. A rapist and an abuser takes what they are not entitled to. Well pretty is as pretty does, because this organisation takes liberties and the punters will only follow suit. I think you can think of this shameful demise two ways either it is god’s way of exposing a bad apple spoiling his barrel or it’s just justice a worldly remedy for a worldly problem. Either way years from now people will be ashamed to have had this name upon them as it was a dirty place that did not have the guts or honour to clean it’s own house but left it to the world to do. ruthlee
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:37 am
“Why don’t the watchtower take a good swig of their own medicine?”
— Because, Ruthlee, that’s not how HYPOCRITES operate. Hypocrites are super-good at dishing out all sorts of sh*tty advice, but really, really lousy at doing it themselves. In fact, they have NO interest or desire to follow their own advice. They push other folks to eat their sh*t, but will NEVER taste it for themselves.
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Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 5:13 am
@ruthlee
“they prefer the company of a child rapist to a child”
Jesus said: ‘let the little children come to me and do not hinder them.’
By their actions the Watchtower has said: ‘let the child molesters come to us and do not hinder them.’
Actions speak louder than words, Watchtower. You can claim that you abhor child abuse all you want, but until you take positives steps to protect children, your words are meaningless.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 5:56 pm
“Actions speak louder than words.”
— ABSOLUTELY
It’s time to STOP listening to Propagandists’ bullsh*t & drivel, and START judging them by what they DO.
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:52 am
Anyone up for a screening of “Clear and Present Danger”? LOL
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anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:56 am
Why don’t the GB & their Lawyers just drink the magic Kool-Aid & get it over with, fcs?
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Average Joe says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:03 am
Came across this JW “zealot” on Twitter and it was quite scary to read his stuff, especially as an active JW myself: https://twitter.com/Sacredsecret
Apart from all the condemnatory Armageddon references, he has the check to put an infographic on there, slating Islam. Amongst the things he mentions is their lack of respect for women & child abuse. Talk about the copper calling the kettle!
Ah the benefits of awakening. :)
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Average Joe says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:03 am
*cheek not check*
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Jarred Booth says:
January 13, 2016 at 9:55 am
Back when I was a Witness one of my favorite scriptures was Genesis 24:56, when Rebekah’s family tried to delay her departure for 10 days, Abraham’s servant said: “Do not detain me, seeing that Jehovah has given success to my way.” It was a motivation scripture for me, that if Jehovah is supporting your endeavor, you have no reason to procrastinate.
Apparently Watchtower don’t believe Jehovah is backing them in these court cases, or they would have no reason to seek to delay trial. It’s quite the contradiction. They claim adamantly that all their policies regarding child abuse allegations are based on the Bible, and yet by their actions they show they trust lawyers’ tactics over “God’s spirit.” You can tell how fraudulent this organization is when they don’t even believe their own propaganda.
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Covert Fade says:
January 13, 2016 at 3:34 pm
This is an extremely good point.
I mostly subscribe to the “Governing Body are deluded, not cynical” argument, but this aspect of WT behaviour is one of the data points that I struggle to fit comfortably into that narrative.
The way they approach these trials does indicate they are terrified of court, and have no faith in Jehovah to “publicly” vindicate them.
Do they “know” they’ve behaved badly in this one area and feel that it’s “outside of God’s blessing?” I don’t know, and I think this would be a fascinating area for further discussion and thought.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 4:52 pm
Interesting thoughts. What does the GB gain by delay? Do they believe that if they delay it long enough, it will go away? Do they know they are ‘screwed’ if it goes to trial and therefore they want to delay long enough to space out damages payments? Do they think that if they delay long enough some of the witnesses (legal witnesses, not JWs) might lose their nerve to testify?
They obviously see delay to be favorable to them. If they were complelely innocent you would think they would want to move forward quickly to exonerate their organization from these ‘apostate lies.’
So very good question, what do they think is the reason this problem just won’t go away for them (i.e. Jehovah is not protecting them or working for their favor)?
WS
Reply
Bright Lightbulb says:
January 13, 2016 at 5:06 pm
They delay because by the time the trial is scheduled the great tribulation will already be here….silly 😉
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:02 pm
Why did Hitler (& others) commit suicide? He knew he was a bad boy.
Jarred Booth says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:23 pm
That’s exactly what I thought when I read this article. That fits in perfectly with their way of thinking and the delusion narrative Covert Fade mentioned.
Or it could simply be that the more they pay out and the more media attention this subject gets when it goes to trial (resulting in more people waking up and less contributions), the more they will have to cut publications and/or Bethel staff. They already announced cuts recently all across the board, and to have to announce more cuts so soon afterwords would really be damaging. And clear evidence they do not have divine backing. So the longer they can delay paying, the longer they can delay more cuts. Of course that scenario once again leads back to lack of faith in Jehovah to direct things. Either way I sincerely believe they are living on borrowed time. Once they blow through the money from NYC property sales, it’s all downhill from there. They better but some Powerball tickets while there’s still time 😉
Winston Smith says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:40 pm
The first issue of the Watchtower said something to the effect that the publishers would never ask for funding to continue producing the journal. If God failed to provide the necessary funds, then it will be time to discontinue publication. I doubt they would ever keep that promise – they are already begging for kids’ ice cream money – but it seems like they are coming close to the situation described in that first issue. Of course at that time the world was going to end by 1914 (and the rapture was coming in 1881 as well, as I recall).
WS
rob says:
January 13, 2016 at 10:40 am
To the Watchtower religion:
Apologize to the victims
Change your policies to ensure that children are protected
Report any and all abuse that comes to your attention to the proper authorities immediately
Pray to God for forgiveness for your past actions
Be open and honest to your members
In my opinion a true christian religion would want to take all of the steps mentioned above.
Reply
Pow says:
January 13, 2016 at 12:18 pm
@Rob
That would be a reasonable response, ,,
However, …if the org. Started coming clean about its blunders and missteps…well…
What would be left?..and why just stop here?
If they could be this wrong here, where else?
The response will follow Standard operating procedure. Deny, ignore, conceal, release misinformation, follow up by informing (if necessary ) that were under satanic attacks by media and.apostates. Then go dead silent, with threat that anyone who specks a word must be privately censored.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:08 pm
That’s the problem with claiming to be right ALL the time. If u screw up (& u will), u’re screwed.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 14, 2016 at 4:54 pm
“Deny, ignore, conceal, release misinformation, follow up by informing (if necessary ) that were under satanic attacks by media and.apostates. Then go dead silent, with threat that anyone who speaks a word must be privately censored.”
This standard operating procedure was followed in the early 1980’s when Ray Franz and others were kicked out. It doesn’t work anymore due to the power of the information superhighway. Times have changed, but the org has not kept up well enough. This standard procedure will no longer work in their favor.
Thanks to the Internet and sites like this one, we now have the means to expose their lies and we will not be silenced.
WS
Reply
rob says:
January 13, 2016 at 12:40 pm
@Pow
Yes, what you said regarding the standard operating procedure is exactly what this religion has been doing and will probably continue to do.
When will people see the “truth” about this corporate religion?
Reply
Wanderer says:
January 13, 2016 at 1:16 pm
If the JW’s counsel to abused kids is effectively don’t go to court, trust in Jehovah and pray, why can’t they take their own advice? Why don’t they leave these cases in Jehovahs hand and pray? If Jehovah can bring them sand via a hurricane surely he can help them win some court cases!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:15 pm
Exactly!!! Why doesn’t “Jehovah” just send a typhoon to knock down all the courthouses & News outlets??? LMAO
Reply
Wanderer says:
January 13, 2016 at 9:58 pm
Reply
Wanderer says:
January 13, 2016 at 10:01 pm
My empty reply above was a smiley face but for some reason it didn’t work???
Reply
Pow says:
January 13, 2016 at 1:45 pm
You know, if you think about it…almost every old testament prophet directed his message to the kings then the princes then the priests on down the line ….lastly to widows and fatherless boys..because the fish stinks from the head down. Sure the king wants his subjects to be honest, law abiding, generous, moral and so on, King Solomon wrote a couple of Bible books, all about sexual morals and not being greedy, yep he would know all about that…but, it’s one thing to talk the talk, but it.should start at the top….down.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:19 pm
If the GB were old testament prophets, they would have been stoned long ago. lol
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:26 pm
So depressed I missed the state of the Onion address. LOL But it seems the Elites of Washington, Wall Street & Hollywood are doing fine. I guess as long as they’re OK, everything’s good in the world. Now looking forward to the Oscars. RFLMAO It all gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. Funny, I also get a feeling that THEIR Apocalypse is coming too. Da da dada da daaaaa da da da daaaaa da….. 😉
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:28 pm
wink
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 6:30 pm
Those JW Hackers shall NEVER deprive me of my Imogees, Goddammit!!!
Reply
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← The Friday Column: Questions Young People Ask – Answers That Don’t Work
The Friday Column: Shunning – a toxic practice in which EVERYONE ultimately loses →
Philadelphia Judges criticize Watchtower court tactics as “abusive.”
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Posted on January 12, 2016
Watchtower has disgraced itself in a child abuse case before the trial has even begun
Watchtower has disgraced itself in a child abuse case before the trial has even begun
It seems that one can hardly swing a dead Seven Headed Wild Beast on the internet these days without hitting a fresh report of Watchtower having to once again defend its handling of child abuse in court.
I submit that there are three main reasons for this:
One: Via a combination of undue influence, rigid adherence to laws devised from ethically out-dated and scholarly dubious scriptural interpretation, and plain old downright negligence, Watchtower has created an environment in its congregations that was described as “a perfect storm for abuse” by a Senior Council for a Royal Commission on the subject.
Two: Growing numbers of activists and, even more significantly, brave abuse survivors themselves, have been tirelessly dragging a spotlight onto injustices and transgressions that Watchtower has desperately tried to keep hidden.
Three: Partly as a result of the above, and partly because good journalists understand that their craft is at its best when it gives voice to the wronged, and holds to account those who have wronged them, the media is increasingly covering this issue. In recent years, a number of professional, credible journalists have started to dig deep into Watchtower’s hidden secrets. Journalists like Trey Bundy.
Bundy has been following Watchtower for a while now, documenting in careful detail the results of his investigations for Reveal News, an Emmy-nominated organization specializing in credible, fact-checked, investigative journalism.
Now, Bundy has published news of yet another Watchtower child abuse story. But this report is a little different: the trial hasn’t even happened yet, and already Watchtower has rushed to disgrace itself.
Bundy documents an upcoming case first brought against Watchtower in 2013 by Stephanie Fessler. According to Fessler, she was abused by a middle-aged Jehovah’s Witness woman some 30 to 50 times from the ages of 14 to 16.
The allegations take a painfully familiar route: it appears Watchtower have admitted that they knew about it; that they didn’t report it, and Fessler has therefore claimed that Watchtower’s policy of non-reporting enabled her abuse. You can read more details of Fessler’s account here.
But that’s not where the current issue lies.
According to Bundy’s report, Watchtower tried to have the case moved from Philadelphia to York county. Why?
Bundy reports “Watchtower argued that holding the trial in Philadelphia would burden witnesses who would have to travel to testify.”
That might almost sound reasonable… unless you know that many of the witnesses apparently live far closer to Philadelphia than to York county. And also that York County apparently has the largest backlog of civil cases in Pennsylvania.
In other words, this was apparently nothing but a shameless attempt by Watchtower to significantly delay what appears to be a compelling case against it for shielding a pedophile from justice.
This was certainly the opinion of the judges who ruled on Watchtower’s request to move to York County. They labelled this tactic “abusive,” and judged it to be nothing more than a “last-minute gambit to delay trial.”
“The facts strongly suggest that the motion to transfer venue was the product of bad-faith collaboration between the Congregations and the four York County witnesses” writes Judge Patricia Jenkins.
One imagines that the trial itself, now safely gathering steam, will not go much better for the already beleaguered Watchtower.
Bundy’s article then goes on to put this event into context against a long history of such behavior from the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. I’d urge to you read it, and to keep following Bundy’s excellent work, both on this story and in general. The world of journalism needs more people like him.
Watchtower likes to dismiss any mention of their failure to act on instances of child abuse in their organisation as “apostate lies,” rebutting the claims as mere stories made up by disgruntled former members.
However, the growing mountain of evidence from credible, responsible news sources, legal court cases and transparent, professional Government investigations shows that someone is indeed lying.
And it’s not the “apostates.”
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Further reading…
◾Reveal: Another judge criticizes Jehovah’s Witnesses’ court tactics
◾Stephen Lett slams “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” concerning child abuse record
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
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← The Friday Column: Questions Young People Ask – Answers That Don’t Work
The Friday Column: Shunning – a toxic practice in which EVERYONE ultimately loses →
137 Responses to Philadelphia Judges criticize Watchtower court tactics as “abusive.”
← Older Comments
Eric Arthur Blair says:
January 13, 2016 at 10:07 pm
I’m just putting this out there. After reading Trey Bundy’s articles and the Watchtower’s admission to having thousands of scanned documents at World HQ on Child Abuse cases within the congregations, is there a good soul out there that may be able to access these somehow and release them on the internet for the world to see? An insider perhaps? Are they on the cloud, can they be accessed in digital form? We need our very own Assange or Snowden. It’s the only way I can think of that would truly bring the organisation to it’s knees, hold it to account, and free more captives.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 13, 2016 at 11:05 pm
That would be awesome, but there’s more than 1 way to skin a cat. 😉
Reply
ruthlee says:
January 14, 2016 at 1:32 am
Great point eric because I would think the shredders will work overtime soon as the net closes. Like all corrupt orgs they always destroy incriminating evidence. This will further hinder exposure and compromise justice. So like you I have an appeal to the honest soul in bethel right now. Do the right thing and obtain the list in some format that can be used later . Be safe but do the right thing for justice.And if it happens to be a guilt ridden gb member then he will have a golden ticket to heaven (that is me being facetious!) ruthlee
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:26 am
I don’t think the WT Corp is completely deluded, at least when it comes to lying. I cannot believe that a liar does not know when he’s lying. Lying is a conscious, deliberate act. Even a child knows when he’s lying, as in, “No, I didn’t steal a cookie from the jar!” They can chalk it up to “Theocratic Warfare”, but they know darn well their own Bible condemns lying thru & thru, for ANY reason. WT has always preached that “the end does NOT justify the means”. Their actions even contravene the 10 Commandments, as in “Thou shalt not bear false witness”. All these phoney-baloney deception- & lie-based legal, court-related delay tactics fall into the “bearing false witness” category, IMHO. And what about Jackson’s assertion that claiming WT is God’s spokesman on Earth would be “presumptuous”, implying they do NOT believe that, which, of course, of course, of course, is a total, bald-faced LIE!!! And that was IN a court. No, at least when it comes to lying, I believe they are fully aware.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:35 am
Which leads to the question, If they are willing to violate one of the most fundamental teachings of the Bible, & their own doctrine, collectively referred to as “The TRUTH”, how much of it all do they REALLY believe, if ANY???
Reply
Victor says:
January 14, 2016 at 4:03 am
This is a good question. I am personally convinced that there are more atheists in religions than outside!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 14, 2016 at 7:51 pm
LOL
Reply
Robert67 says:
January 14, 2016 at 8:32 am
Billion dollar publishing company dressed in Cults clothing. As scripture would say Satan dressing as an Angel of light. Everyone here is a real witness to the truth about this cults “truth”. Their actions show that they do not fear God or the consequences of ursurping his sons place in Gods arrangement of Mercy and Love above all else in his message. I am also greatly doubting their even believing he exist.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 14, 2016 at 7:57 pm
They believe THEY are God!!!!!
Reply
Meredith J says:
January 15, 2016 at 2:31 am
That is what I have believed for a while. It is the only conclusion that one could come to. It has just been a big set up by Satan to deceive as many as he can. Shock news. No, we were taught his tactics because we were taught by him. And these governing body members are brainwashed blind so as not to see it. They are right in the thick of it. Jesus Christ is the only way out. He is the One with the answers and the help, I’m convinced of that because He is the only one capable of over reaching his power.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:34 am
Never thought of that. WE were actually schooled in the ways of the Dark Side.
anonymous4 says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:49 am
Not to get TOO far off-topic, some of U may get a kick out of this clip showing how Baby Stewie deals with a cult leader.
N.B. For Entertainment purposes ONLY, NOT trying to put ideas into anyone’s head. lol
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=stewie+kills+a+cult+leader
Reply
Robert67 says:
January 14, 2016 at 8:42 am
My brother in law sat me down and asked me to listen to two talks as we drank whiskey on the rocks over the holiday. One was from a brother from an elder from Central Spanish congregation in Chicago the other from Ashland Spanish congregation who both meet at the same hall. I was impressed by the eloquence and illustrations used, he smiled and gave me a usb with some audio to listen to when I got a chance.
It turned out the audio was of years old sermons by Joel Osteen that were just about word for word, illustrations and all what these two elders said during their talks. Impressive that these elders in Chicago’s Spanish congregations resort to taking from the table of Babylon the Great in order to feed their congregations and any they visit. Has anyone else noticed this? I remember when sticking to the outlines was policed by the president overseer at the hall.
Reply
Robert67 says:
January 14, 2016 at 8:43 am
I’m not drunk now, just typing on a tiny phone, sorry about the incohesive sentence structure.
Reply
Pow says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:12 pm
Like I am totally steamed right now!!!!
Another news flash, related to topic at hand.
Nova Scotia, Elder and son involved in child abuse, and it’s recent. ..Nobody’s pretty much saying anything. .except. .father of abuse victim says “were all human ” talk about throwing a line life to the abuser, abuser expected to plead not guilty. ..what the F*** am I missing here?
Reply
Bright Lightbulb says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:23 pm
Link?
Reply
EverydayExplorer says:
January 15, 2016 at 4:43 am
Here is the link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/abuse-allegations-jehovahs-witness-1.3401468
Reply
Pow says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:32 pm
Since I set up a clandestine email. I am having trouble posting a link, however, if you search jehovah’s witnesses news on Google its 3 hours old on CBS news.
If you could post it , please do.
Reply
Bright Lightbulb says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:36 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/abuse-allegations-jehovahs-witness-1.3401468
Reply
Pow says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:36 pm
And I meant newfoundland. .not n.s
Reply
Tara says:
January 14, 2016 at 6:43 pm
Totally unreal! What sort of father washes his hands of his child’s abuse!
Reply
Meredith J says:
January 15, 2016 at 2:40 am
The parents are so brainwashed. They think that this person was “only human”. Come on. Who goes around raping children? It is amazing the way some Witness parents react to pedophilia, like it really isn’t that bad. No wonder they don’t report anything. Because the kid is too young to communicate how horrendous the experience/s were, it is just treated like as if it was a minor sin and not a despicable crime that it is.
Reply
Pow says:
January 14, 2016 at 2:38 pm
Thanks
Reply
dee says:
January 14, 2016 at 3:14 pm
An article of interest:
“How to answer Jehovah’s Witnesses who say that pedophilia happens everywhere”:
http://jwvictims.org/2016/01/08/how-to-answer-jehovahs-witnesses-who-say-that-pedophilia-happens-everywhere/
Reply
Tara says:
January 14, 2016 at 6:35 pm
That is just what I needed Dee. I was thinking about this at work today. Well done you :)
Reply
Meredith J says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:01 am
Thanks dee, good points. My daughter in law said that very thing to me.
I liked the reference from the Live Forever book where it talked about being able to tell the true religion from the false. The scripture that was used was the one where Jesus said in John 13:35 where it said “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love amongst yourselves.” Remember that one? Well, they have just shown how false they are, being probably the worst one when it comes to pedophilia with their bent policies.
Another good scripture is Matthew 7:16 “By their fruits you will recognise them”. In other words, you could tell the true Christians from the false ones by using this simple test. The parable of the wheat and the weeds is starting to make real sense now, in allowing the false and the true to grow together until the harvest. Intriguing. By the way, if you want to look up any scriptures now, you can just google them. It is amazing.
Reply
ruthlee says:
January 15, 2016 at 8:30 am
I’m going to be controversial now. Yes they do have love amongst themselves, but its the wrong kind of love. It’s in house, insular. conditional, narcissistic and perverted. You would NOT TOLERATE sex with children time and time and time again and say you love them. That is not love. That is abuse . So the love among themselves is what it is and it won’t end pretty.They cannot quote the bible and then prove false to its words. Maybe once or twice for stupidity’s sake, but not again and again.This wicked repeated act against children is not love and never will be. It to quote watchtower idealogy, this wicked immoral world is waking up to to the damage such behaviour has on a person and is trying to repair some of the damage then why are the watchtower so wilfully disreguarding the authorities and institutions put in place to effect such a change? This org does not know the first thing about love but it knows very well how to hide paedophiles. So the love amongst themselves, sure they have it but it will be their own undoing. ruthlee
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 14, 2016 at 9:18 pm
Just read that CBC News article. I agree, the father of the victim dismissing the acts by saying, “We’re all human”, is really sickening.
Also, the response given by the Information Officer of the Canadian Bethel in Georgetown, Ontario, sounded really lame and undoubtedly scripted. Simon Picard told CBC, “We do abhor that kind of wickedness…and we do not protect any of these individuals and we allow the authorities to do their work.” That is obviously a prepared, scripted statement. These talking points were obviously anticipated, ready to be pulled out at a moment’s notice, like a gun out of a holster. Then he goes on to reference the “tools” found in WT publications to help parents “train their children to be protected from these kind of things”. LMAO Then, of course, the JW Website was referenced as a source of further “tips”. Interesting that the journalist mentioned Watchtower has been described as an “insular sect” — READ “cult”.
Reply
Meredith J says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:06 am
They always say the same old thing. It is pathetic. It’s always “We abhor wickedness.” Sounds like nothing and from about 1000 years ago. Just shows how robotic they all are. They just keep repeating the same old Watchtower phrases again and again like they are just a recording that keeps playing over and over. Surely, one day the media will catch on with this how brainwashed they are.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:42 am
…or a BROKEN record
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 14, 2016 at 9:33 pm
From JWVictims.ORG:
“David JACKSON
January 10, 2016 at 12:54 am
Very hypocritical. As a former police officer, I was involved in a case where they hid the pedophile who happened to be a family member. Anyone in the congregation was expelled who would say anything about it. The thing that shocked me the most that the elders on there judicial committee told me that the person was “forgiven by God’s holy spirit”. Sick perversion of an organization that is now being discovered more and more through out the world.”
Reply
Meredith J says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:09 am
How would they possibly know that God has forgiven them? That is so presumptuous.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:45 am
Amazingly, according to his testimony in ARC, Geoffrey Jackson agrees with u!!! lol
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 14, 2016 at 9:39 pm
I seem to recall the Catholic Church had a lot of problems in Newfoundland with pedophile priests. Quite a few cases there, back in the day. I guess the apple does not fall far from the tree.
Reply
Innocent Son says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:44 am
Unfortunately a lot of people caught up in this Cult will not accept any negative criticism or even proof of wrong. I know this because I was one for many years! I refused to believe anything bad about the Org. or Governing Body. Let’s hope more brave individuals come forward and expose this cruel religion for what it is. I wonder what God they really serve?
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:48 am
Answer: The Watchtower serves Satan.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:53 am
People need to stop being afraid. If everyone comes forward together, what can WT do? They’ll have to disfellowship half their members. Even just disfellowshipping any who speak out, will cause such a shockwave throughout the organization, it will be devastating. & if disfellowshipping or shunning is an issue, it can be the next thing dealt with on a legal basis.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 15, 2016 at 4:16 am
To the Watchtower Corporation:
You now have so many moles you’re beginning to look like Cindy Crawford. Your organization is being sabotaged and eaten alive from within. More holes than Swiss cheese.
Reply
Pow says:
January 15, 2016 at 8:47 am
My gut feeling is in this case….Is that it was reported (because someone knew that if they didn’t, the Romans would come and nail the organization to the cross)..but then they handled it the regular way (internally ). And judicial committee told the dad to forgive, because they did.
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← Philadelphia Judges criticize Watchtower court tactics as “abusive.”
The Friday Column: Shunning – a toxic practice in which EVERYONE ultimately loses
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Posted on January 15, 2016
The Australian Royal Commission highlighted the cruelty of Watchtower's shunning policy
The Australian Royal Commission highlighted the cruelty of Watchtower’s shunning policy
My fellow JWsurvey team members have written extensively on the Australian Royal Commission and Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony in particular. But I hope you will indulge me in revisiting what transpired, especially in light of Watchtower’s defence against Angus Stewart’s findings.
Jackson’s testimony gave the Commission, along with the entire internet, a glimpse into the inner mind of a multi-billion dollar high control group. His presence was unprecedented, especially when you consider that one of his colleagues was recently found evading a subpoena in America.
Early into his testimony, the Commission made sure Jackson understood that its purpose is benevolent, and not to be construed as an attack. He wholeheartedly agreed to this premise, and told the Commission that he was happy to testify.
The hard truth
Once the testimonies were complete, the Senior Council, Angus Stewart, released a report on his findings. On going through them it’s easy to see why they first stressed their good intentions. Quite simply, what they found was a slough of cruel and inhumane practices that put children, and the public at large, under threat.
Organized shunning was something they took a close look at. Among a list of grievances on the practice, they had this to say on its ultimate purpose:
“[The practice of shunning] is adopted and enforced in order to prevent people from leaving the organisation and thereby to maintain its membership”
If you’re going to submit a report about an organization that claims they employ emotional blackmail to maintain membership, it could very well be misinterpreted as an attack. And that’s exactly how Jackson and his Governing Body reacted. Their response, in the form of a submission of their own, was predictable (emphasis added):
“This suggested finding ought not be made because:
(a) there was no evidence given to the Commission upon which it could be based – no documents were or are referred to by Counsel Assisting and no oral testimony is referred to containing any admission which could support such a finding;
(b) it is not true as a matter of fact – Jehovah’s Witnesses are a voluntary faith-based organisation that persons are free to join and to leave;
(c) Jehovah’s Witnesses were not asked to address the Commission on such a question. Had it been raised beforehand, it could have and would have been addressed directly by testimony from persons inside and outside of the faith;
(d) it is not at all relevant to the Commission’s Terms of Reference;
(e) it is an unfounded, unfair and unnecessary attack upon a voluntary faith-based organisation that is law-abiding and does much to promote lawful conduct within Australia and around the world through its exertions; and
(f) if the finding could not be made in a Court of law, it ought not be made by the Commission.”
Simply put, the leaders of the Watchtower Society cannot handle the truth about their own practices. Historically, when anyone points out the cruel and unethical nature of their policies they can only cry persecution. Many times in the past they’ve been confronted with these issues, and they’ve reacted in the same way: by claiming they’re the victims of an “unfounded, unfair and unnecessary attack.”
It’s a standard religious cult defensive tactic. They deny and dismiss any and all criticisms while claiming their religious freedom is under siege. This can have the effect of garnering support from inside and out of the organization.
Professional victims
In psychology there is something called “playing the victim,” which can help explain the reasons behind the Watchtower’s behaviour when criticised. Sometimes, an abuser will try to persuade others that they are the one being victimised. When they do this, it can serve as not only a distraction, but a justification to themselves as a way of resolving their own cognitive dissonance that rises due to their behaviour. It also can serve as a justification to others, because it helps them escape the harsh judgement they may fear others will direct towards them.
On the last day of 2014 I posted an article that delved into Section 4 of the Watchtower’s new highly sanitised history book. The article was, in part, meant to bring to the forefront the Watchtower’s absurd view of themselves in the courtroom. They want people to see them as victims who rose to the challenge and fought off their oppressors with the helping hand of God.
No doubt they now see the Australian Royal Commission as merely another minion from the devil sent to destroy their reputation and attack their faith. Their submission is a prime example of why the Commission found their teachings to foster a distrust of secular authorities. How can any Jehovah’s Witness trust the Commission, or anyone who supports them, when the Watchtower has claimed to have been attacked by them?
It’s the same tired narrative that was played all throughout the 20th century by not just the Watchtower, but all religious cults. The 21st century, on the other hand, finally has a chance to close the book, because now the internet exists and is in full swing.
The real victims
The Senior Council rightly assessed the practice of shunning to be detrimental both to the shunned and the shunners. So sinister is the policy that it creates a “shun or be shunned” environment. It is well within Watchtower’s power to lift this burden from its members, but they flatly refuse.
I cannot help but be reminded of a story in the book of Exodus. Moses had been commissioned by God to go and deliver a message to the Pharaoh of Egypt. The king was to immediately free all the Israelite slaves, but Pharaoh refused to give in even under threat. Plague by plague passed by, and still the Pharaoh would not budge.
The woes that befell Egypt in the story serve as a sound metaphor for the psychological torture that mandated shunning causes in the minds of Jehovah’s Witnesses. How many more tragedies will it take before Watchtower understands that it is unethical, and lets people go from the scourge of this cruel and inhumane practice?
It isn’t the Watchtower and their deity who are the victims here, it’s the millions of people who constantly live under the threat of losing access to the ones they hold dear. It’s the people who cannot be with their loved ones simply because they no longer lead a lifestyle that the Governing Body endorses.
It’s high time for those people to be set free.
The bottom line
The fact is, Jehovah’s Witnesses have an enormous material value to the organization. Together, the membership spends upwards of 2 billion hours preaching in the field and making new converts each year.
They donate their time, their resources and their hard-earned money to what is referred to as “kingdom interests.” They also have children, and subject these to indoctrination, which increases the chances they will become life-long contributors.
Mandated shunning effectively protects the investment Watchtower makes in human beings. It protects their bottom line which, as with a business, is really the top priority. If people could just walk away without any serious repercussions, then they would – and they’d take their time and money with them.
Imagine if shunning was truly a personal decision for each individual member. Suppose it were not a mandated religious edict? Just imagine how much easier it would be for the Jehovah’s Witness faith to grow and prosper if it did not have such a toxic reputation as a “captive organization” weighing it down!
Sure, many would seize their chance and exit if shunning were abolished, but those who remained would be sincere followers, and would have a much easier time selling their beliefs to an increasingly skeptical internet-savvy world.
Despite what people like Geoffrey Jackson would have their members believe, shunning is ultimately detrimental to EVERYONE – the shunned, the shunners, and those who mandate the shunning. It’s an archaic practice better left in antiquity where it belongs. I wholeheartedly believe it has no place in our future, and I hope one day the leaders of Watchtower can see this too.
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← Philadelphia Judges criticize Watchtower court tactics as “abusive.”
22 Responses to The Friday Column: Shunning – a toxic practice in which EVERYONE ultimately loses
eyes opened says:
January 15, 2016 at 12:49 pm
Well said.
Reply
Johnshipl says:
January 15, 2016 at 12:57 pm
The law on domestic abuse has now been changed in the uk to include coersive and controling behavior causing mental or emotional abuse on a close relative giving them diststress is now a criminal offence carrying a possible jail term of 5 years or a heavy fine . This is just the sort of behavior the study WT of feb 2016 is advocating to a daughter to do to her dfs mother although the motherbis in distress the daughter refused to speak or visit instead sending a letter telling her “if you want to stop the pain you must return to jehovah ” plain and simple blackmail evil
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Athlyn says:
January 15, 2016 at 1:25 pm
The leadership can deny shunning all they like but they do teach and enforce shunning. Members are continually programmed to believe that it is a question of loyalty to God. The Society MAKES it a matter of loyalty to God.
I tried to fade and have been shunned for 15 years. I’ve lost my son, my grandson (whom I’ve never seen), my sister, and my nephews and nieces–almost my entire family.
The fact that I’m still a person of faith counts as nothing because this isn’t about one’s faith in God, Christ, or the Bible. What is IS about faith in the Governing Body’s interpretations.
And it IS about the money. This also impacts inheritances, as well. What shunned person sees any inheritance from those who have cut him/her out of their lives? In this way, the Society also benefits by keeping more of the money within the organization, instead of some of it going to the outside.
The lack of humility is appalling. Imagine a group of men holding their own teachings in such high regard, they are willingly to break apart families? Heartbreaking. Lawmakers should step in and penalize those perpetrating this abuse.
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jason says:
January 15, 2016 at 1:41 pm
Great article man!!! Good job:-)
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Leesa says:
January 15, 2016 at 1:56 pm
Brilliant article. As a third generation JW shunning was so ingrained I did it automatically. What a shock when I spoke out about the “2 witness policy” and experienced shunning first-hand. Although never officially disfellowshiped WT.org inssit on ‘their way or the highway’. The effects of shunning where so cruel and dehumanising my husband and I had to sell our home and move.
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Chiafade says:
January 15, 2016 at 4:46 pm
Speaking out! A sin worse than fornication and even CHILD ABUSE according to watchtower.
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Sliced says:
January 15, 2016 at 6:25 pm
Lessa, the same thing happened to me. Just a “hint” of stepping out of the robot line and BAM. You cannot even show a twinkling of doubt without being noticed and collectively shunned back into line. Ay yi yi.
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Claire Gorman says:
January 15, 2016 at 2:23 pm
Great stuff well spoken and so true.
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EstimateThisOne says:
January 15, 2016 at 2:35 pm
This info is put together very nicely. I’ve never really given much thought to what this does to the person that shuns, but they’re just being ‘good little soldiers’, and any of us, at some time in our life have possibly done the same thing.
Thank you for your article.
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Jeffreycanning says:
January 15, 2016 at 2:57 pm
Great stuff, saddens me to realise i can’t do similar, but each little bit we do counts and as you said the internet will ultimately destroy their phony heartless religion… Well i think you said that… Keep up the fight.
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Rosie says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:22 pm
James
Thank you for this article. It is very timely for me.
I recently had contact with a family member who shuns me, yet denies doing so.
The recent contact was the most cold-hearted and emotionally detached correspondence I have ever read. Hateful.
They have no comprehension of unconditional love.
The above comments are also so true – the new domestic abuse laws in the UK cover this very topic. Manipulating another person by cutting off communication with them is now officially seen as abuse.
I will ensure to draw this to the attention of the Charity Commission.
As for the other matter of inheritance – so true. I was not even considered worthy to receive a single item of my non-JW grandparents memorabilia.
For me the impact of the JW Cult has been a lifelong torture.
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Jarred Booth says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:51 pm
I will comment on something which may not get a favorable response. Not sure. Although I agree in principle that shunning should be an individual decision, I personally found being shunned by all JWs to be of enormous benefit for my life. But that’s probably because I was raised as a Witness and the lifestyle was engrained in me. Basically all my friends were Witnesses, so if I had not been shunned, it may have been difficult for me to move on. Complete removal was what I needed to get to the next stage of my life. Otherwise I might still be stuck in JW limbo. Of course it’s different for everyone, and I still miss my friends, and I still agree WT’s shunning policy is no good. But when I look at my life now, how far I’ve come and how much more I’ve done with my life since leaving the organization, personally, I’m actually glad I was shunned.
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Sliced says:
January 15, 2016 at 6:52 pm
I think the majority would agree that its the breaking of the natural family bond that is extremely disturbing and unnecessary. (But I get what you mean- getting away from it all helped you wake up) what you are really proving is that there is NO NEED to shun. People should be able to leave or stay and it should be that simple.
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Caroline says:
January 15, 2016 at 3:55 pm
My congregation gave a marking talk about me last summer or spring. I don’t know when it was but people in the congregation knew the talk was about me because the elder described me so quite a few won’t even look at me, when I am standing just a few feet away from me when I am in line, either at the bank or at the grocery store. They drive past me and act like they don’t see me.
Some others do talk to me and are friendly. One such “sister” yesterday was only about three feet away from me when I was at the bank and she refused to look at me, even though I stood there, facing her for several minutes. I have known this person for upwards of thirty five years and I was so angry that I was cussing her out in my mind for the rest of the day and even today, I was telling myself how much I truly hate her for the way she treated me yesterday.
There have been many, many people who used to associate with at the Kingdom Hall and I was quite friendly with and they stopped going to the meetings, but I never once treated them like that. Whenever I see them, I was always friendly. To me, if you want to catch some flies, you give them honey and not vinegar. The people who shun us are giving us vinegar in the hopes that we will “return” to the congregation and then have the fun of being able to “associate” with them again.
I am not that desperate for company that I will stoop to going back to the meetings so that I can have those peoples’ company. Why would I want to go to the meetings again when I am being shunned by those so-called “friends” for not even doing anything wrong?
They are being taught that if they shun us for not going to meetings or if we got disfellowshipped for some sort of wrong doing, then we will miss them so much that we will want to “return” to the congregation and then live through Armageddon.
I was also brainwashed into thinking that shunning was going to save their lives. I didn’t do it because I hated them but I also thought I was saving their lives by shunning them but at least I would look at them and smile at them, at least acknowledging that they existed on the earth and I made them think that I cared about them anyway, even if I couldn’t talk to them.
Shunning doesn’t work in attracting people.
When people are shunned, it is serving them vinegar and not honey. I think the Society knows full well that shunning doesn’t “draw” people back to the congregation, but it actually “repels” them instead but the Society doesn’t care because the most important thing that the Society wants to accomplish is to shut us up so that we can’t talk about all the lies and cover ups, pure and simple but the rank and file don’t realize they are being used as pawns in the Society’s evil game.
People who shun stupidly think they are saving our lives by shunning us, but that doesn’t make me hate them any less for not being smart enough to see how counter productive shunning is. I actually pity them because they are pissing away their one and only lives over nothing important at all: like what they think they are doing is important and it’s not important at all.
They are the real losers, just the rest of us all were, until we woke up.
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Wanderer says:
January 15, 2016 at 4:10 pm
A friend of mine told me his Mother was warned by her son in law that he noticed her meeting attendance and field service dropping off. He said that if she stops going to the meetings she will never see her daughter or grand children again. How Christ like and loving these hypocrites are!
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Brent says:
January 15, 2016 at 4:14 pm
Look! Its hard keeping a doomsday cult going a hundred years after it should have been laugh at and forgotten. If they don’t blackmail their membership they will have to get jobs or another scam to make the kind of money that they are used too.
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Chiafade says:
January 15, 2016 at 4:52 pm
Great article and observations James. The gb/organization is only concerned with maintaining the status quo. They would rather lose some of their best people than give that up.
If they ever gave up the shunning policy it would be the end of watchtower, and they know it. The uber faithful would remain but how many comprise this elite group? They are not eager to find out lest they go the way of the worldwide church of God.
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Sliced says:
January 15, 2016 at 5:13 pm
I couldn’t agree more with your bottom line. Thank you for revisiting this topic again, as this was what WOKE ME UP. I’m new here, but get used to hearing from me once I stop “bleeding out” from being completely sliced right open when the real truth about “the truth.” Still in a bit of shock. For all the writers here- I say keep up the good work.
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Garth says:
January 15, 2016 at 6:00 pm
Very well written.
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Darlene Alexander says:
January 15, 2016 at 6:07 pm
I agree with Brent. Don’t expect any sympathy or changes from Watchtower; they are a dangerous cult, their only objective is to make more members/get more money. They have no interest in treating people ethically or kindly, that is not their purpose. If anyone should be paying attention and forcing changes to that despicable organization – it should be the authorities.
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Andy says:
January 15, 2016 at 8:35 pm
Beautiful analysis, profound and poetic even.
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Deep Thinker says:
January 15, 2016 at 9:09 pm
The only way to fix this is to give a substantial fine to anyone who announces (Disfellowshipped, Disassociated, Marked, etc.) this at the KH.
The UK is in the right directions, but what parent or child will take their family to court and have them face possible prison. Squeeze the real culprits who keep this going in the pocketbook.
If the elders and Watchtower know they were going to be hurt financially every time an announcement was made then pretty soon there would be no elders to run the show. I am sure that the WT then would have an epiphany and come out with some new light.
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Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
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Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
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Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
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Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
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frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
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Holy Connoli says:
November 17, 2015 at 1:14 am
Frankie.If I were you I would turn him into the police now even though it may have been several years ago he committed this crime. Many sexual predators get turned in years later after the crime is reveled. At the very least he will be investigated and his Name will be mud for being a creep.
He deserves it and so does the WT for its NON protection of the flock and not caring for the victim but only their phony reputation.
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Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
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Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
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frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
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pj wilcox says:
July 31, 2015 at 3:21 am
I watched the latest video of the inept elder being questioned by the commission. Who prepared this man for testimony? You all are aware of the dentist who shot Cecil the lion in Kenya? Well his life is over. He is in hiding. What he did ,did not break laws in Kenya and his is in a world of trouble with public sentiment. But this elder being questioned is far worse. He covered deeds that drove people to think of killing themselves. Should he not go into hiding? Is his life over? Has he know conscience? Emotion, caring? You know the answer. Bet ya, damage control is working overtime on this.
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Adrian says:
September 8, 2015 at 3:32 am
I think the Royal Commission videos demonstrate that fragility of the governance within the WT society. Yes, it’s an Australia branch issue but cross examination only points to the seat of control on which the governing body members sit. Everything starts and stops with the governing body, they set the policy but where are they? Sitting comfortably in NY watching from a distance ready to abdicate any responsibility whatsoever. A governing body governs and leads but I see no leadership I see the followers talking and being bashed around the head with questions, all too easy for the legal team.
However, it might just be me but does anyone else not see the lawyer’s gap in knowledge regarding the fundamental rationale for the WT society policies, they fall back in their comfort zone knowing that they can say ‘well we don’t have the authority to go beyond the bible.’
It’s this gap in knowledge of the legal representatives which the WT society exploit. I mean nobody is going to ask ‘ where actually did this translation come from anyway?’ What were the academic qualifications of the translators? Is there a possibility that you have interpreted things wrongly or even worse, translated things incorrectly? If there’s a possibility that your interpretation on how to deal with modern day child abuse cases in congregations may be flawed, then are you in agreement that your policies could result in lasting harm to victims of abuse? In my view that translation is the ‘elephant in the room’ every scholar knows it’s perverse but no one is holding this cult to account. So easy to say it’s all in the bible but should they really be saying it’s all in the NWT instead?
The WT society in the videos almost give of an innocence as if to say, ‘ but that’s what we understand from the scriptures’, and I think it works in their favor, but a savvy legal representative would do well to tease out the basis for the rendering of certain verses on which doctrine, policy and organisational decisions are based. So far the WT Society appears to be one step ahead because their authority is not a person but a book, which they are ‘only trying to understand and live by’. Expose the origin of the NWT and the basis for so many ridiculous uncaring decisions is called into question.
Reply
Rick Viger says:
November 10, 2015 at 3:26 pm
Thanks John for all you do with your videos.
I’m an ex JW for 40 years now. I hope your videos reach some witnesses and make them think. For all of you that have left Watchtower remember you made the right decision.
Reply
S.T. says:
November 24, 2015 at 9:48 pm
I was wondering if anyone has heard that Jehovah’s witnesses are telling there congregations that the end of this system could have only hours left? My sister who is a Jehovah’s Witness said they are preaching this at the congregations. Has anyone else heard this?
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Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
This week's Friday Column takes a look at the unnecessary cruelty of religiously-mandated #shunning... http://wp.me/p1TWXJ-2jm
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If @BostonGlobe's child abuse reporting amazed you in @SpotlightMovie, check out what @reveal's @TreyBundy is up to. https://www.revealnews.org/blog/another-judge-criticizes-jehovahs-witnesses-court-tactics/ …
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11 Jan
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
Another judge criticizes Jehovah’s Witnesses’ court tactics https://www.revealnews.org/blog/another-judge-criticizes-jehovahs-witnesses-court-tactics/ … via @reveal
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Susannah JW Reporter @JWReport
#Governingbody #Jehovahswitnesses may give $5.5mill for Dumbo #skatepark but still want kids #icecream money 4 funds http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/39/3/dtg-witnesses-money-brooklyns-worst-park-2016-01-15-bk.html …
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Yet Another Problem With Jehovah's Witnesses Calling Child Sexual Abuse Complaints "Apostate L… http://wp.me/p47oyc-7Ju via @wordpressdotcom
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Covert Fade @CovertFade
Interesting, given how the Jehovah's Witnesses charity in the uk is ruled by 7 men no members are allowed 2 question https://twitter.com/chtycommission/status/686103987414777856 …
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Good to see @ChtyCommission clamping down on bad governance. Trustees of #Watchtower UK are trustees in name only. https://twitter.com/ChtyCommission/status/686103987414777856 …
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Jeni Lundblom gives a brilliant and scathing analysis of the dreaded "YPA book" in this week's Friday Column! http://wp.me/p1TWXJ-2ho
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Why Tom McCarthy's brilliant movie "Spotlight" is a must-watch for #jehovahswitnesses http://wp.me/p1TWXJ-2il
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6 Jan
Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
Thanks to @hemantmehta for helping spread the news of Jehovah's kindness in using a typhoon to deliver sand! http://tinyurl.com/jjgk75f
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6 Jan
Hemant Mehta @hemantmehta
Jehovah’s Witnesses Say God Used a Typhoon to Deliver Sand for the Building of a New Kingdom Hall http://tinyurl.com/jjgk75f
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Another story by @reveal Court supports UK #Jehovahswitness survivors of abuse https://www.revealnews.org/blog/in-england-more-accusations-that-jehovahs-witnesses-hid-sex-abuse/ … @JWNewsHistory
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AvoidJW.org @avoidjw_org
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In England, more accusations that #JehovahsWitnesses hid sex abuse http://ow.ly/WDCIM
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