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Watchtower files lawsuit against Vyborg customs in Russia
avatar 
Posted on January 20, 2016

Vyborg Castle in Vyborg, where a storm over imported bibles is brewing
Vyborg Castle in Vyborg, where a storm over imported bibles is brewing

The city of Vyborg, northwest of St. Petersburg, Russia, has a painful and turbulent history. Over the centuries, it has been part of Sweden, Finland and Russia. Russia most recently annexed Vyborg in the 1947 Paris Peace Treaties after World War II.
The modern city borders Finland. For centuries, its turreted fortress was a stronghold against various Russian invasions. When I visited in 1992, I was met by a group of bold, enthusiastic people who wanted to see how the internet worked.
A tall, elegant man spoke up during the workshop, claiming to be a Romanov, a survivor of the Russian Royal family. He was keen to use the internet search engines (pre-Google), and our unstable connection, to research his lineage. My interest was more focussed towards connecting communities rather than reinstalling a potential monarch.
Vyborg made a lasting impression on me, not least because our work was new and it was during White Nights. With Russian colleagues we sat by the river at 3 am, drinking Vodka and wondering what Russia would be like in 20 years time. It was a time of hope.
What prompted this memory was a link on Facebook to an Interfax Bulletin with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Vyborg in the title. I wondered what could they have possibly been doing in this unique City? Its modern call to fame is gas distribution. Its river outlets have enabled moderate trading opportunities, most recently for the distribution of paper from Vyborg’s paper mills.
Interfax reports “The Administrative Center for Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia has filed a lawsuit with the St. Petersburg and Leningrad Region Arbitration Court against Russia’s Vyborg Customs.”
Apparently, Vyborg Customs “blocked a number of holy books from entering the country.”  The books were a consignment of Bibles, not the “silver sword” or New World Translation, but “an official Russian translation made by the Russian Orthodox Church (the ‘Synodal edition’), as well as the ‘Study Bible’ published by the Russian Bible Society.”
I googled “The Russian Bible Society” and they produce four versions of the ‘Study Bible’, with a cost ranging from $9 to $69.
Given the “Silver Sword” Bible release heralded much fanfare in 2013, why would a community of “German Jehovah’s Witnesses” be sending “Russian fellow worshippers,” a “Study Bible” produced in Asheville NC, by the Russian Bible Society?
The Russian Bible Society claims “to have been at the frontline of providing Bibles for Russia since 1944.” They say: “We believe the greatest gift we can give to any people is the pure Word of God in their native tongue. Therefore, we are committed to continually providing word for word translations based on reliable manuscripts, such as the Received Greek Text. Thus, the Bibles we publish are the ‘Synodal Translation’ of the Russian Bible and its accurate translation into the minority languages of the Commonwealth of Independent States.”
They seem to be genuinely concerned that the Russian people have access to an accurate translation.
You would think Jehovah’s Witnesses who claim to have the most up-to-date version of the Bible would want to do the same. There is a Russian translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses’, New World Translation of the Bible, so why send copies produced by the Russian Bible Society?
I do not have an answer, but I can offer a theory. The Interfax source for the bulletin is the Watchtower Press Office. There is no another verifiable information source.
Interfax quotes Watchtower’s Russian press service as stating that it is within the Russian law to send Bibles. They are not banned. Watchtower is arguing that the actions of Vyborg customs caused confusion because “the fact that back in November the Russian president signed a bill to protect holy books, including the Bible, from the effect of the anti-extremist laws.”
Whoever sent the books failed to present “any documents to certify observation of the restrictions” set forth by the Federal Law on “Counteracting Extremist Activity.”
My theory is that materials being sent to Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia are being flagged as extremist, and if you lack the proper paperwork the books, materials or whatever else are sent back, and Watchtower is testing the waters with these Bibles. Or it may just be that someone had a surplus of Bibles and thought they would send them on.
It is not clear what was meant by a consignment of Bibles, or to whom they were sent.
Customs in Russia are alert to Jehovah’s Witness operations. In March 2015, Russia’s Northwestern Transport Prosecutors seized over one million brochures brought into Russia for the ‘Administrative Center for Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia’.
Interfax refers to the previously confiscated haul and notes that experts identified “some materials that contained arguments or a justification for citizens’ to refuse to perform their civic duties, encouragement of non-friendly treatment of people worshipping other religions in the brochures and then the consignment was arrested.”
Either way, the 2013 launch of the silver sword informed the membership that this version was backed by the Governing Body and had Jehovah’s blessing. Indeed, Jehovah was apparently responsible for the favorable weather conditions at Wallkill while it was being printed. But it is not the “Silver Sword” translation, or the New World Translation, that will be in an exhibit box during the court proceedings.
So the irony is, this lawsuit will defend the right of the Watchtower organization to send the Russian Bible Society’s “apostate” Study Bible to Jehovah’s Witnesses in Russia.
 
susannah-signature
 
 
 
 
 
 
After finishing this article, a Russian contact came forward saying that literature and Bibles have been shipped to Russia from the Finland branch up until January 1st, when shipments ceased. He says all JW congregations in Russia have and use the New World Translation.
Further reading…
◾Interfax Religion Link
◾Russian Bible Society Study Bible Link


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41 Responses to Watchtower files lawsuit against Vyborg customs in Russia

 Caroline says:

 January 20, 2016 at 5:56 am
 
So, why spend all that time and money to send those people through college to be lawyers, if they can’t use that schooling for such a silly lawsuit? That is what I wonder.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 20, 2016 at 6:53 am
 
The WT Corporation is getting weirder by the day. From wacked-out cult to Lord of the Rings to Harry Potter, and now…..u are entering…the Twilight Zone…LOL
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 January 20, 2016 at 7:56 am
 
Hey! don’t you go blaspheming LOTR and HP! I can’t even use the ‘silver sword’. It just smacks of …….. not even sure of the word I am looking for. It just seems wrong.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 20, 2016 at 8:24 am
 
During my period of awakening (prior to the release of the silver sword) I came to appreciate the liberties taken with the scriptures on the part of the NWT translators. I also learned that the NWT used the grossly outdated Westcott and Hort Greek text of 1881. Since that time I have used an app called Bible Gateway for iPhone which gives me access to about 50 or so translations with a click of a button. I have found the Holman Christian Study Bible (included in the app) to be a fairly reliable and easy to use version.
So when the ‘silver sword’ was released, I did little more than leaf through and look at a couple passages. I was surprised that the so-called ‘consistent renderings’ that the NWT used to brag about appeared to have been eliminated (compare the use of the word “soul” at Genesis 2:7 in the old NWT verses the new).
WS
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:25 am
 
@WS – :-) caught that huh? Yup, there’s a very sticky issue with using “soul” everywhere, because in the Torah/Pentateuch books soul is linked to blood, and life is linked as “in the blood”. This gives the soul (body) mortality argument a problem because it alludes to the soul being something apart from the main body (living person) and perhaps able to exist/continue apart from a body.
Just as the lyric and verse “destroy both soul and body” if pondered has doctrinal shattering potential.
Reply
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 21, 2016 at 3:44 am
 
Funny it was the soul of the Watchtower concept that prevented me from accepting the whole religion for about 7 years. I had always believe that the soul was something separate to the body and it did not make sense how the Watchtower was explaining it to me. I eventually gave in and accepted it reluctantly. Looks like I should never have let go of my initial concept.

 
 
 
 Bad Penny says:

 January 25, 2016 at 5:01 am
 
Re: ‘grossly outdated Westcott & Hort Greek text’. Just a point, these guys were apparently spiritualists! The ‘New World’ translation was doomed from the start.
Reply
 
 
 Bad Penny says:

 January 25, 2016 at 5:04 am
 
Just a side point – Re: Westcott and Hort; these guys were apparently spiritualists. The NWT was doomed from the start!
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:00 am
 
@ Tara
Now, now, don’t get ur magic ring all in a knot. I didn’t say LOTR & HP were bad, just weird.
 PS Personally, I prefer the Hobbit, & Ted 1&2.
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:08 am
 
Lol I’m reading the Hobbit now…. I like weird. Btw, the new Jekyll and Hyde IS weird!
Think the silver sword may go in my shelf under mythos.
Reply
 
 Free Thinker says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:22 am
 
Be mindful of the fact that “There is more evidence for the historicity and accuracy of the history of Middle Earth and everything that happened there than for gravity, electricity, wind!” Ooooooohhh yeeeeaaahhh.

 
 
 Tara says:

 January 20, 2016 at 1:58 pm
 
I do believe in Elves, I do believe in Elves…..

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 20, 2016 at 5:35 pm
 
I am one of those geeks that actually read the appendix at the end of the Return of the King. It read very much like biblical lineage and was very well documented for mere fantasy. Found the Silmarillion of tough read though.
WS

 
 
 Tara says:

 January 21, 2016 at 7:19 am
 
Me too WS. does this make me a geek?

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 21, 2016 at 8:18 am
 
@Tara,
 A geek? Well in my circles (engineers and scientists) that term is a badge of honor. We often refer to a weekend where we “geek out” by watching all 3 LOTR movies or similar.
Keep in mind that geeks are cool now – and often wealthy and respected – Bill Gates, Dean Kamen, and Elon Musk come to mind. The Urban Dictionary defines a geek as: The people you pick on in high school and wind up working for as an adult.
The Big Band Theory takes the geekiness to an extreme, but we all see those elements within us. So just based on your reading the appendix to LOTR, I cannot say for sure. But you might be a geek and that’s OK by me.
WS

 
 
 Tara says:

 January 21, 2016 at 8:58 am
 
wahoo!

 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 21, 2016 at 9:56 am
 
@ Tara
“Does this make me a geek?”
No, u were already a geek. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. U know I’m kidding, right…OK, put down the knife…..

 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 21, 2016 at 10:06 am
 
Big Bang Theory…The best Sitcom on TV today!
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+big+bang+theory+s06e08+the+43+peculiarity+-+wormhole+generator+test

 
 
 Aj Newman says:

 January 21, 2016 at 12:16 pm
 
Hey guys please talk in simple language please so that others who speak another language will understand what you are saying. We want to learn from all of you.
 Thanks:-)

 
 
 Tara says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:15 am
 
To geek or not to geek, that is the question…. my sword was forged in Gondolin by the High Elves of the West… I call it Stick because I stick it in people….

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Doc Obvious says:

 January 20, 2016 at 7:54 am
 
Watchtower legal has finally met their match. Russia does not play by Watchtower’s legal department rules. Watchtower needs to respect the superior authorities in Russia and stop playing juvenile games.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 20, 2016 at 8:35 am
 
The Russian Government seems to be a bit more aware of the hate speech contained in Watchtower publications as opposed to some of the more liberal, Western governments.
It always bothered me that the Watchtower taught that everyone who was not a JW would soon be killed by God. Especially since I knew some really good-hearted “worldly” folks and some really unpleasant JWs.
I once asked one of my closest JW friends what he thought about this teaching and he insisted that it was not what the Organization taught. He quoted their doublespeak such as: “many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation” – meaning many may as yet still convert to being JWs!!! (see full article at: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/who-saved/). Nice to see that the Russian Gov is more alert to the JW lies than my friend.
WS
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:24 am
 
Good to see someone has finally noticed the “non-friendly treatment” toward Non-believers by the Witnesses. Perhaps this finding (now documented) can be used in future anti-shunning lawsuits.
Reply
 
 
 JBob says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:55 am
 
@WS – you didn’t catch that doublespeak line is a re-hash of the failed “Millions Now Living May Never Die”?
Another insight on why it is so frustrating debating/discussing reasoning with JW’s is this lesson from Psychology 101,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_influence
Reasons I am increasingly nudged to believe the Watchtower is some bizarre military psyops or civilian psyop experiment in “compliance”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compliance_(psychology)
It would be an interesting experiment in influencing and controling millions of subjects into complete submission without the use of expensive militarized enforcers. And, formation of effective forms of punishment to ensure compliance.
Instead of “brown shirts”–no tight-pants or effeminate affectations…
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 21, 2016 at 9:14 pm
 
Thanks for the info JBob. I am still getting through the info in the links. Not surprising that the doublespeak can be traced back to the “Millions” book. I read it a while back, but I think my focus at the time was more on the outlandish predictions made.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 Aj Newman says:

 January 21, 2016 at 12:25 pm
 
You are right
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:13 am
 
It seems it takes the tough guys to really challenge WT. 1st, the Aussies, now the Russkies!
Reply
 
 
 
 Roponen says:

 January 20, 2016 at 8:29 am
 
The Finland branch is not closed, but it is possible that the route has been changed to cross the border through some other country.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 January 20, 2016 at 10:26 am
 
Thank you. If our contact is misinformed, we will amend that part of the article.
Reply
 
 
 
 Tara says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:18 am
 
The WT org.site doesn’t mention any other Bibles bar their own.
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/russia/censorship-russian-bibles-literature/
They are pouting.
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:22 am
 
Or is that Putin 😉
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:33 am
 
Let’s hope WT gets “Putin” their place.
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:36 am
 
Wonder if that Russian bible is “New Light”. lol
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:28 am
 
Everything is digital–why are they bothering with printed materials? not every one has internet or tablet/personal computer device in Russia? or the USA..
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 20, 2016 at 9:40 am
 
Frivolous lawsuits like this remind me of the Jerky Boys – You Kicked My Dog. LOL
Reply
 
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 20, 2016 at 12:38 pm
 
I don’t care if people want different types of bibles in their homes. But I like the fact that Interfax refers to the previously confiscated haul and notes that experts identified “some materials that contained arguments or a justification for citizens’ to refuse to perform their civic duties, encouragement of non-friendly treatment of people worshipping other religions in the brochures.” That part I like. I say confiscate the material and let the people free. I don’t agree with ruining a person’s life because of any of this. I hate scary mixed with stupid. Religion is a marriage of scary and stupid. When scary and stupid go to bed it’s a nightmare. I hate religion and politics. It gets even worse when they fight over land at the same time. I hate all of it.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 20, 2016 at 12:53 pm
 
“Scary & Stupid” – exactly – the 2 primary ways of controlling people since the beginning – Propaganda & Fear. Brainwash people into believing some fairy tale so they’ll blindly obey (like: hey, ur leader(s) just happens to be a god(s); or, ur leader(s) is so much brighter than u peasants, went to Law School, blah blah blah, whatever, so shut up & obey). If that doesn’t work, Fear will. Fear of ostracism, imprisonment, torture, death, etc, etc, etc. Basically, he who wields the biggest club gets to run things.
Reply
 
 
 
 Idontknowhatodo says:

 January 20, 2016 at 5:16 pm
 
Its all a distraction….there will be lengthy discussion about the stand the JWs have made and this will distract people from the fact that the organization is imploding…and the anomikies of doctribe…and the waiting waiting waiting for the non existant new world and the dumbibg down of the meetibgs and the hush hush hush of the child abuse cover ups…. lets just make the r and f concentrate on…’is Russia the King of the North’…here we go again…distraction distraction distraction…. I hate them for thier dupkicity.
Reply
 
 Idontknowhatodo says:

 January 20, 2016 at 5:18 pm
 
Sorry…*dumbing….anomilies…doctrine…meetings…duplicity…I have fat fingers and a heap of rage!
Reply
 
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 20, 2016 at 8:15 pm
 
@Idontknowhatodo
That’s a good point about this being a distraction.
Joseph Rutherford declared: “religion is a snare and a racket, religion was introduced into the world by the Devil”. Denouncing other religions is a way to justify the JW religion and gain recruits. Among the prospective recruits are professing Christians who have drifted from their churches and who know little or nothing of Christian doctrine. When these persons hear their churches being denounced, their ignorance of their churches’ teachings and their weak attachment to their churches make them listen sympathetically to the claims of the JWs – I believe Ray Franz made a similar point about the recruiting success of the JWs in his book: “Crisis of Conscience”.
Denouncing all other religions has been one of the JWs effective recruiting strategy. The JWs will discover that the Russian Orthodox Church is a powerful force in Russia and will not stand for the JWs pouring scorn and abuse on their religion.
BTW, Singapore has also banned JW publications:http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0TE19320151125
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 21, 2016 at 10:28 am
 
The Germans tried to mess with the Russians in WWII. Didn’t work out too well for them.
Reply
 
 
 
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← Watchtower files lawsuit against Vyborg customs in Russia
The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon →
 
Under new management: JWsurvey welcomes new Editor and Assistant Editor for next three months
avatar 
Posted on January 21, 2016

With any worthwhile cause, many hands make light work
With any worthwhile cause, many hands make light work

It gives me great pleasure to announce some exciting changes. Over the last few months I have been gradually expanding our team of writers.
The more I have witnessed the skills and attributes of my wonderful team, the more I have grown in confidence to share the burden of running this website.
As many of you know, I am tantalizingly close to getting my book finished, but I have been forced to accept that I can’t give it the attention it deserves with so many pots on the boil. When you are a young father with your own business, news blog, youtube channel and book to complete, something has to give.
I’ve therefore decided to recruit an Editor and Assistant Editor who can run the website over the next few months so I can focus on tying up loose ends. When the three months are over, we can review the situation and decide together how to proceed.
Covert Fade has kindly agreed to take on the Editor role, with John Redwood as his assistant. Both have impressed me as being enthusiastic, eloquent, committed and knowledgeable activists. They also have a genuine desire to maintain the existing welcoming tone of JWsurvey, and recognize its significance as a “halfway-house” between cult indoctrination and mental freedom.
I will continue in the background submitting occasional articles as the need arises, but I am grateful to be leaving the day-to-day running of JWsurvey in such capable hands. I know all you dear readers will give Covert Fade and John your support and encouragement.
I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to our outgoing webmaster, John Hoyle. John is, in my opinion, one of the great unsung heroes of the exJW movement, having launched, edited, maintained and renovated numerous websites over many years, not to mention contributing many significant articles. He is now taking well-earned retirement from activism following his enormous contribution to the cause, which includes designing and launching this website back in 2011.
I cannot thank John enough for his extraordinary kindness in taking a chance on me back when I was virtually unknown, offering to build me a website completely out of the blue. It is his extraordinary kindness and generosity that inspires me to trust the keys of JWsurvey to other like-minded ones, thus adding their skills, energy and talents to a project I truly care about.
As individuals we can accomplish much, but as a team we can be unstoppable.
 
 
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38 Responses to Under new management: JWsurvey welcomes new Editor and Assistant Editor for next three months

 dontknowwheretogo says:

 January 21, 2016 at 2:30 am
 
Looking forward to the book Lloyd!
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 21, 2016 at 3:39 am
 
Me too!
Reply
 
 
 
 Caroline says:

 January 21, 2016 at 3:24 am
 
Thank you all for your hard work in keeping jwsurvey going. This site has been a life saver for us.
Reply
 
 
 Pburford says:

 January 21, 2016 at 3:57 am
 
Thanks for everyone’s help in making this site a home for all of us to come to. Congratulations to Covert Fade and John Redwood.I can not wait for the book to be released.
Reply
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 21, 2016 at 4:05 am
 
Thank you Lloyd for your efforts and all the best with your other pursuits and writing your book. Great choice for interim guardians of the site. They do write good articles and I am sure they will settle in in no time. Don’t worry guys, if you make a mistake, it’s not the end of the world.
Reply
 
 
 JOLLY Guy says:

 January 21, 2016 at 4:20 am
 
Happy to know this.
 As you know, I read and translate your mails in french and send them to many people.
 Thank you
Reply
 
 
 Jill says:

 January 21, 2016 at 7:05 am
 
Love all of this! Brilliant work all! Thank you for all you do!
Reply
 
 
 Tara says:

 January 21, 2016 at 7:15 am
 
Wishing everyone new, old, retired and busy all the best :) may we all continue to support and encourage each other however and whenever we can.
Reply
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 January 21, 2016 at 7:48 am
 
A balanced man you are! I hope the book contributes more in awakening people all over the world.
Reply
 
 
 david says:

 January 21, 2016 at 7:59 am
 
Happy to hear you are going to have some help,but please don”t stay gone to long.You have been a major help to my wife and me.with respect,David
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 21, 2016 at 8:02 am
 
I was a bit concerned when I saw the title of this article, but having gotten to know Covert Fade and John Redwood from their articles, I know the site is being entrusted to capable hands.
I really appreciated the description of this site as a “”halfway house” between cult indoctrination and mental freedom.” All of us heal at a different pace based on number of different factors and there comes a point when it is time to leave the halfway house and move on with life. Some of us may move on – I have seen some commenters gradually slip off the radar; earlier this week, Tiger123 said his farewells – others stick around as counselors and supporters.
Lloyd: we appreciate all your hard work with this site – know that you have been able to help many, many people. I look forward to reading your book when it is released.
WS
Reply
 
 Faded says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:14 pm
 
Well said
Reply
 
 
 
 Claire Gorman says:

 January 21, 2016 at 8:58 am
 
Good luck everyone! Thanks for all the hard work.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 21, 2016 at 10:47 am
 
Appreciate all the hard work. Good luck to the newbies, looking forward to the book.
Reply
 
 
 Gramma Velta says:

 January 21, 2016 at 10:57 am
 
Happy that you are sharing some of the work! It is hard to do everything yourself. I know it is hard to let go, but sometimes it is the best things. Looking forward to your book. God bless you and help you in your endeavor. I am praying for Him to open up the Watchtower to complete visibility to those who are enslaved by them and that they will be set free. You have been a great help in this. Love you, Gramma Velta
Reply
 
 
 Darlene Alexander says:

 January 21, 2016 at 10:59 am
 
I appreciate so much the efforts of you and everyone who has contributed to your website, Lloyd. Good luck with the book! And a big congrats and welcome to Covert Fade and John Redwood!
Reply
 
 
 Sliced says:

 January 21, 2016 at 12:39 pm
 
Lloyd,
 I want to thank you very much for the sound line of logical reasoning that you have presented in each of your blogs and videos. They have proved so so so helpful to me and my family. Waking up from undue influence takes enormous mental effort, and to have this place to come to- that helps you feel somewhat normal with the roller coaster of feelings you experience is just priceless (and even essential in many aspects) I’m so early on in my journey that I hate to think of not seeing updates from you, but, of course, I realize that life must go on for all of us. I’m happy to have “crossed paths” with you and your team of writers. I’ve been raised a JW since 5 yrs old, and baptized at 16. 29 years have passed since that day I dedicated my life to this organization at such a young, tender age, and I have struggled with so many doubts but kept swallowing them down. I’m so glad to be free, but like a captive who learned to love their cage… I’m slowly coming out and investigating this wonderful world I was told to fear. Thank you again from my heart. Wishing you success in all you do!!! @llyod Evans
Reply
 
 
 Grace says:

 January 21, 2016 at 2:25 pm
 
Thank you Lloyed & JW Survey.
You have been my escape route. I was one of those that stayed in “the halfway house”. 2 years ago, I came here out of desperation & depression & I found people who were going through the same thought processes as me.
2 years ago, I sat with the Elders sobbing to them. Telling them that I must be a weak & unfaithful person because I have never been able to “grow spiritually” & that I can’t do this anymore because I have been stumbled by the Candace Conti case.
How that changed when I educated myself here & Paul Grundy’s site along with Steve Hassan’s books. I realised that I wasn’t “spiritually weak” or “unfaithful”, I was an intelligent enough woman who was finally using her thinking ability & that it was okay to acknowledge that. I used to put myself down all of the time.
When I first left, I used to walk with my head down if I went out because I was so intimidated by the thought of running into “brothers & sisters” who were judging me but now I can walk with my dignity again thanks to this site & the comments from those I have come to know.
I have not left here, I will always come back to check in on everyone & see how they are going. I don’t always comment as everyone seems to touch on what I’m thinking but I read the articles & comments & feel happy when I see new ones commenting.
I have gained my family back. I used to cry a lot when I was “in the truth”, I had never cried so much in my life, now I feel free & the tears a few & far between. Now, I laugh more especially when I read some of the comments on here. I used to be judgemental & critical, now I let people be. I truly did not like the person that I had become when I was a witness. Now I feel like me again. Thanks again to you all.
Reply
 
 Sliced says:

 January 21, 2016 at 3:11 pm
 
Grace,
 It’s encouraging to me to read comments like yours!
 I want to be where you are one day soon!
Reply
 
 
 
 Grace says:

 January 21, 2016 at 4:00 pm
 
Sliced,
You will get there. You just need time & a lot of reading & researching to confirm your doubts. I look back & I see that life as a JW is like looking at a picture so close that you only focus on one aspect of the picture but when you stand back far enough to look at the whole picture, you start to see the ugliness of it all.
By doing that I could see that there is no way (if there is a God) that is loving, more wise & more empathetic that me, a mere human that would find this religion acceptable. Seeing that gave me the strength to walk away knowing that I have done nothing wrong, they’re the ones that have & they know it. They are just constantly covering their tracks & trying to hide the ugly truth.
Controlling abusers like to make their followers believe that they can’t live outside of their control. They beat you down mentally, convincing you that you will never be happy without them & that everything is your fault. This creates dependancy.
It’s easy for me to say this though as my family never accepted the JW religion so I had somewhere to go & feel accepted. I also had “worldly” friends that are understanding people. I feel so much for those whose family are still in. That’s why sites like this are invaluable.
I ran into my study conductor yesterday & she looks old & depressed. She said to me years ago that she told her kids that they would not finish high school. Now she is a great grandmother. Her family are messed up & half are inactive & have moved away. The other half that have stayed in live near her so I think she hangs in for them. Her husband was never a believer & I think she sometimes has doubts just by some of the things that she has said to me over the years but can’t bring herself to go there. She really looked sad & weighed down to me & kept bringing up how horrible it is getting old. Every time I see Witnesses they look depressed to me. But saying that, I haven’t seen many around lately, I keep asking hubby if they have left town because I used to see them everywhere as they love shopping. He doesn’t see any around either. Is everyone hiding their basements or something?
Reply
 
 Robert67 says:

 January 21, 2016 at 5:30 pm
 
They found new ways to liven up Gods place for worship


Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 21, 2016 at 5:42 pm
 
Nicely choreographed, but not very “Theocratic”.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 21, 2016 at 5:54 pm
 
New sign out front:
Kingdom & Dance Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses
or
Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses & Center for the Performing Arts
Reply
 
 
 David says:

 January 22, 2016 at 6:04 am
 
They are in the middle of a crisis so they have to adopt practices that they have once criticised. You know lies get brighter!
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 22, 2016 at 12:31 pm
 
Of course, WT has been doing the old Song & Dance routine in Kingdom Halls ’round the world for years & years now. lol

 
 
 
 
 Faded says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:24 pm
 
I’m so former old school indoctrinated that that freaks me out!, yet I’m glad they’re having fun. My former hall would barely host a reception and snacks for a funeral. Geez!!!!! Lmao!!!!
Reply
 
 
 Bad Penny says:

 January 25, 2016 at 5:45 am
 
So that’s why we don’t see them out on the ‘work’, they are all practising the ‘New World Dance Routine’.
Me thinks they would be more popular if they danced around the streets looking happy! And the blue jeans in the KH! Tony ‘tight pants’ would surely have something to say about that!
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Jay says:

 January 21, 2016 at 6:33 pm
 
As all the other comments have stated already, thanks to all of you! I check this site for new articles 2 to 3 times a week. It has been a very instrumental part in helping me to break free as a slave to the watch Tower . As we all know after 30 years or more of indoctrination breaking free is not easy , the mental and emotional roller coaster can be overwhelming. I can truly say that this website plus many others of its kind has truly helped me ! I can honestly say that I feel as if I have been set free ! I am happy and I am content ! No matter how much lipstick the watch Tower continues to try to put on , it is very obvious they are coming apart at the seams I see it in the local congregations around me and how all the other brothers that are still in our feeling . And thank you to the ones that are taking the torch and are helping you to keep this website going thank you! Looking forward to your new book I will read it from cover to cover .
Reply
 
 
 Pascal says:

 January 21, 2016 at 7:11 pm
 
I really liked this fitting ending,”As individuals we can accomplish much, but as a team we can be unstoppable.” It perfectly echos my feeling. Best wishes to new team and the ones retiring.
Reply
 
 
 airborne says:

 January 21, 2016 at 9:24 pm
 
Go team!
Reply
 
 
 David says:

 January 22, 2016 at 6:01 am
 
Cedar, It would be nice to see more expansion. Maybe this site can be translated in different languages, professional movies explaining JW history and flawed doctrines could be also produced. I think there are talented people out there that want to promote freedom from cult indoctrination. People would be happy to contribute and donate for such a good cause.
Reply
 
 
 Searcher says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:20 am
 
Lloyd,
Thanks for all you have provided here and bravely started.
Mike.
Reply
 
 
 Average Joe says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:24 am
 
I didn’t realise that John Hoyle manages the website. He’s a top bloke from what I know of him and he evening gave me some quality blogging/commenting tips after visiting his http://www.ex-jw.com website, which I shall endeavour to put into practice on here too!
 All the best with the new book Lloyd and I’m really glad you have got to a point where you have found people you trust to steer the chariot.
Reply
 
 
 Twmack says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:39 am
 
Smooth transition, no hiatus. Surely someone must be
 controlling the weather, or something.
 Great organisation guys.
Reply
 
 
 msanjama Banda says:

 January 22, 2016 at 4:22 pm
 
failures are many little did i knew.watch us grow in truth for life jw
Reply
 
 
 Sofia Medrano says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:17 pm
 
I thank you for your excellent work and help for those who need news to expose the lies and abuses on the WT
Reply
 
 
 James Broughton says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:26 am
 
Lloyd, we’ll miss you but understand your reasons. You have a very able team of writers who have given us some fantastic articles over the past few months. I wish you well, your family and the team for the future.
Reply
 
 
 Bad Penny says:

 January 25, 2016 at 5:31 am
 
Lloyd – I’m so pleased to hear that the Book is coming along nicely. It does take so much time, I’m amazed that you have fitted anything else in! (My husband has written a couple of books since leaving WT and they were his total focus.)
 Good to have Covert Fade and John Redwood on the team, they are both accomplished in their contributions.
 May the work long continue!
Reply
 
 
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← Under new management: JWsurvey welcomes new Editor and Assistant Editor for next three months
 
The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
avatar 
Posted on January 22, 2016

The worldview of Jehovah's Witnesses revolves around Armageddon
The worldview of Jehovah’s Witnesses revolves around Armageddon

When I was a Jehovah’s Witness, I didn’t like to talk about Armageddon.
Don’t get me wrong, I loved to talk about the paradise. Who wouldn’t? I’d cheerfully tell anyone who asked, be they householder, interested person at the meetings, or curious workmate, about the awesome future that awaited. I’d talk about a world free from war, free from crime, full of incredible adventures that a peaceful, united human race would enjoy forever.
But when people asked how God would achieve this, I found myself getting a little vague and fuzzy about the details.
I mean, how do you say: “Well, first God needs to kill you and everyone you love, unless of course you fancy converting?” without making yourself look like a bit of a extremist loon?
I remember sitting in District Conventions, when the speaker would be holding forth with sound and fury on the subject of how God’s wrath would soon consume all those who failed to serve him. I would glance guiltily across at any “worldly” people who happened to be in the stadium, like the security guys, or the people working the concession stands. I’d feel like walking over to them and saying; “Don’t worry, he’s not talking about you, or your family or friends,” but I couldn’t, because he was.
I knew very well that unless they became Jehovah’s Witnesses, they were dead men and women walking.
Armageddon: An act of justice?
Let’s take a second to actually analyse the Watchtower’s teachings on Armageddon. It is presented by Watchtower as the war that Jehovah God will soon use to remove all of the Earth’s governments, and most of the Earth’s population, and install his own brand of rulership on the planet. He will fight it with his spiritual armies of angels, with his son Jesus leading the charge. He will have no need of human help, so Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be involved in any actual combat. Their role will simply be to stand and watch.
Who will survive? Well it depends who you ask. Or more correctly, it depends on who you are when you ask.
If you are a member of the public asking this question, you’ll probably get the answer: “That’s for God to decide. Only Jehovah can read a person’s heart. We don’t know who will survive and who won’t.” Take for example the FAQ on this subject from Watchtower’s official website JW. org. (Bold is mine.)

Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.
Well, that sounds okay on the surface. Maybe I can just live a good life, treat my neighbour well, and Jesus will read my heart, see that I’m basically a loving, kind man and I’ll be spared?
No. Because this isn’t the answer Watchtower gives behind the scenes to an indoctrinated Jehovah’s Witness. Here are some examples of what Watchtower has said about Armageddon in other publications, with even more examples available at jwfacts.com (Bold has been added)

“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19
“During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known Gods righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.”  Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?”
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
So it’s pretty definitive. While Watchtower tries to spin the doctrine to the general public that “all sorts of people might in theory survive Armageddon” the actual message in-house is that unless you are a practicing Jehovah’s Witness, you are toast.
Contemplate that for a while. Watchtower’s doctrine is that everyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness will be killed, no matter how loving, how kind, how selfless they are in other areas of their life. They could have spent their life in Medicine Sans Frontiers, selflessly dedicating themselves to providing medical care to fellow human beings in some of the worst places on Earth, whereas a Jehovah’s Witness may have simply worked as an IT engineer in a comfortable office, and never really helped anyone much.
But come Armageddon, it would be the Jehovah’s Witness who would survive, and the selfless medic who would die screaming.
To summarise, the non-Witness population of the planet would undergo a systematic slaughter of every single man woman and child. There is a name for the systematic killing of a civilian population solely for the purpose of extermination.
Genocide.
The ethics of genocide
You don’t have to use your imagination to see what Armageddon would look like. Human history is replete with examples of genocide. To glimpse the future that a “loving” God will being, look to the concentration camps of World War II. Look to the mass graves and “ethnic cleansing” in the Balkans, or the hacking to death of vast scores of Tutsi and moderate Hutu by the Hutu majority in Rwanda.
Or look on the news reports right now at the work of ISIS in the Middle East, who are currently engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Yazidi people.
Now, it goes without saying that 99% of Jehovah’s Witness are no doubt just as horrified as everyone else when they see the awful genocide that the so-called Islamic State are currently committing against the Yazidi population. The wholesale slaughter of men women and children, often in gruesome and sadistic ways, is an appalling crime that has brought universal condemnation from the international community and revulsion from anyone with even a halfway decent moral code.
Yet these men, women and children being slaughtered at the hands of ISIS, are the very same men, women and children who would be slaughtered at the hands of Jehovah if he brought Armageddon today, a slaughter the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be obligated to support and celebrate as a righteous act.
And it’s not like the slaughter would be any more humane; Watchtower does not teach that Jehovah will painlessly disintegrate his victims or cause them to simply fall asleep in quick, merciful death as would arguably be within his power to enact. No, Watchtower portrays this event as a violent holocaust, with people being crushed, burned and mutilated in a manner of which the sadists of ISIS would surely approve.
To prove this point, let’s take a look at some Watchower artwork depicting the event.
armageddon-1982-enjoy-life-p28
Ageddon Feature Image
WatchtowerArmageddon2003learnfromgreatteacher_p243
Watchtower Armageddon 1988revelation
WatchtowerArmageddon1997WT0901
This is just a small sample of art produced by Watchtower to demonstrate what they believe Armageddon will look like. A whirlwind of terror and grisly violent death unleashed against a powerless and unsuspecting civilian population.
If you’re still in any doubt, listen to Governing Body Member Tony Morris, one of Watchtower’s seven leading men, hold forth on how those God kills will burn and split open like hotdogs.
Even worse, according to Watchtower theology, those who die before Armageddon will almost certainly be resurrected into God’s New World in order to have a second chance, whereas those who die at his hands at Armageddon are eternally destroyed. Remember that Watchtower FAQ quoted earlier in the article?

Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Why do I say “even worse?” Because this teaching creates an horrific moral loophole. If Witnesses take their theology to its logical conclusion, they should be celebrating the deaths of “worldly” people at the hands of killers like ISIS, for those “worldly” people at least have a chance of resurrection in the new world, whereas if they escape the ISIS sadists but then die at Armageddon, they are doomed forever.
Again, to stress, 99% of Witnesses would be horrified if one of their number suggested this.
An elder who gave a talk from a Kingdom Hall platform stating that Christians should rejoice in the death of worldly people, and that groups like ISIS were doing the people they killed a favour by sending them en-mass to Paradise via the loophole of pre-armageddon death, would appall his audience, probably have his microphone muted, be hauled off the platform and into a back-room, be given a savage dressing down by the rest of the elders, and would probably not allowed to give another talk for a very long time.
Yet this theoretical Elder’s logic, whilst horrifying and unacceptable to most Witnesses, is a correct reading of the logical end consequence of Watchtower doctrine.
Genocide is always genocide
The more I came to realise what the Armageddon doctrine actually entailed, the more I came to fear there might be something horribly wrong with the Organisation I was supporting and the doctrine it promoted. Were such a violent act to be committed by a human organisation or movement, I would be revolted, and condemn it for the vile act of barbarism it was.
So how did it suddenly become acceptable if the very same people were slaughtered by a deity who claimed to be the very essence of love? Billions of defenceless men, women and children, all killed horribly because they were not convinced that a slightly obscure and insignificant religion that occasionally knocked on their door, or stood silently next to carts full of wafer-thin magazines, was actually the One True Faith?
Like many before me, I increasingly found my conscience could not support the teachings Watchtower promoted.
Like many before me, I came to properly research my beliefs, and thus realised that the teachings Watchtower promoted were often not even in harmony with the Bible.
And in time, like many before me, I left the Watchtower religion. In a way, Armageddon set me free.
Just not quite in the way Watchtower had intended.
 
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← Under new management: JWsurvey welcomes new Editor and Assistant Editor for next three months
 
481 Responses to The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon


Newer Comments →
 
 Average Joe says:

 January 22, 2016 at 10:09 am
 
Good to see Will Smith making an appearance in the last illustration (bottom right)!
 Another outstanding article with very sound reasoning.
 Thanks.
 AJ
Reply
 
 
 IT Engineers Without Borders says:

 January 22, 2016 at 10:40 am
 
First the aside regarding office workers and IT engineers not being charitable is presumptious but I understand the need to compare to another often maligned category (corporate culture is seen as greedy not benevolent or helpful in the JW artistry). I also realize that the reference to jwfacts.org creates a circular argument as jwfacts.org article references certain aspects of the jwsurvey.org site (namely the lack of Watchtower coverage).
To keep the appearance of objectivity, a revisit or research inspired by jwfacts.org would have been beneficial (http://mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html).
Overall, I like the article, but something missed in the above statements is how the Watchtower artwork draws on some scenes of the 9/11 events–tall buildings falling into the street, fireballs plummeting from the sky, etc.
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 22, 2016 at 10:56 am
 
Hi there :)
Thanks for reading the article, and I got a chuckle from your username. 😉
I take your point on the choice of contrasting an MSF medic with an IT engineer. My choice of an IT professional was simply as an example of what many would consider a “normal” safe job that didn’t require a huge amount of sacrifice to carry out, and contrast it with the sacrifice required to be an MSF medic working with ebola patients or holding in the guts of a civilian in a war zone whilst bullets ripped up the air. It wasn’t intended as a slight on IT professionals. Who knows, some of my best friends might be IT professionals 😉
I reference JW facts because for many Witnesses this article might be the first time they’ve read anything critical of the Watchtower, and if I’ve helped them to think, I want to them point them towards other resources that can help open the minds even further :)
On your point that Watchtower draws on apocalyptic imagery, I agree, though it’s hard nowadays to create any image where a city is destroyed and not inadvertently seem like it’s referencing 9/11. The scope of the article is limited and sometimes one has to be brutal with the word count. There will be more articles on Armageddon coming in the next few months, so we hope to cover some of these wider points then.
Thanks again for your comments :)
Reply
 
 IT Engineers Without Borders says:

 January 22, 2016 at 11:13 am
 
:-) Love it, love the writing, too! Stay on the DL, bro, or sis–you..!!
Reply
 
 
 
 la Vita of Deb says:

 January 22, 2016 at 12:24 pm
 
Hope you don’t mind it took me a while to get it straight who was org and who was come but wanted to make a quick correction – it is jwfacts.com not org.
Reply
 
 la Vita of Deb says:

 January 22, 2016 at 12:25 pm
 
Sorry for the errors org or com
Reply
 
 
 
 
 David says:

 January 22, 2016 at 10:42 am
 
Great article. Out of curiosity, what is your day job? You have a gift for writing.
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 22, 2016 at 11:07 am
 
Thank you. I can’t really tell you my day job sadly as I’m faded, not DF’d, hence the air of mystery surrounding my identity… 😉
Reply
 
 Bret says:

 January 23, 2016 at 1:00 pm
 
Covert fade,
Nice article i just can’t help to think about how fear based this organization is. Im in the same predicament as well and thats a “fader” along with my wife, son, daughter and hopefully my other son who is still at Walkill Bethel for another couple months. If its not fear of second death for disloyalty or lack of ministry, activity in the congregation, then its destruction at Armageddon. And this fear trickles down to fear of Disfellowshipping, being avoided as bad association or week. Fear is a part of every aspect of this religion. Fear even moves most JW’s to turn in their time report at the end of each month; fear that is of the dreaded call from group overseer or if your a brother removal of privileges for turning in that slip. All religions use fear induced phobias in one way or another but not many to this extent.
Reply
 
 dee says:

 January 23, 2016 at 8:53 pm
 
One more for the fear pile – you will be blood guilty if you don’t preach.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Bright Lightbulb says:

 January 22, 2016 at 10:55 am
 
Most most excellent article. Common sense unfortunately isn’t all that common at times with certain ones.
Reply
 
 
 Garrett says:

 January 22, 2016 at 11:03 am
 
Thank you for your hard work as always. We appreciate the hours and hours it takes to put together such a piece. Thank you . We are grateful for people like yourself who put themselves out there.
Grammar. Something I hear ALL the time…even from Lloyd.
 A person cannot say
“I was A Jehovah’s Witness” anymore than a person can say
“I was A Lloyd’s friend” .
Correctly ” I was ONE OF Jehovah’s Witnesses”
(I was ONE of Lloyd’s Friends)
 or “I was A Witness of Jehovah’s”
(I was a friend of Lloyd’s)
G
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 22, 2016 at 11:30 am
 
Hi there.
 Yeah, I do take your point on the JW grammar, although it seems to be a regional thing. I actually never used that term much, I always said “I’m a Jehovah’s Witness”, and a lot of my friends did too. But in other parts of the country “One of Jehovah’s Witnesses” seemed to be the immovable rule.
I do agree that “One of Jehovah’s Witnesses” is more grammatically correct, something to note for the future perhaps, though there are times where the longer form seems to gunk up an otherwise short an elegant sentence, and also seems to imply that they actually ARE legitimate Witnesses for the entity the define as Jehovahs, which is another reason I try not to use it.
Tldr; Good point, but I’ll probably still alternate between the two 😉
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 22, 2016 at 12:10 pm
 
I think the clumsy grammar stems from the clumsy phrasing of the name itself. For instance, you don’t hear someone say, “I am one the Catholics” or “I am one of the Baptists.” They simply state “I’m Catholic” or “I’m a Baptist.” For anyone not closely associated with the Watchtower Organization, I think the “I’m one of” phrasing sounds odd.
Furthermore, based on the scripture at Isaiah 43:10, any Christian or Jewish person could consider themselves “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” (uncommon, but I have heard it from a few Baptists and Pentacostals) whereas “a Jehovah’s Witness” seems to identify one as part of the Watchtower Organization. I think the oddly phrased name stems from the fact that when the name was chosen, organized religion was still being denounced as “a snare and a racket.”
Bottom line is that I agree with Covert Fade, either phrasing may be appropriate at times.
WS
Reply
 
 Eric Arthur Blair says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:29 pm
 
Yes, I agree. Actually, this is a big deal in my neck of the woods, and on the rare occasion that I speak to JWs these days I enjoy deliberately referring to them as “a Jehovah’s Witness” just to annoy them. I enjoy watching that slight inflection of discomfort cross their face as they mentally strain the gnat with me.
Reply
 
 
 
 Garrett says:

 January 22, 2016 at 12:57 pm
 
There is no alteration in Grammar or “options”. Either it is wrong or it is correct .
 If I hear someone speaking poorly, I instantly question their education.
 If we don’t even know the correct name of who we were or who we are now trying to wake up, why would they listen to anything that comes out of our mouth if the first thing we say is wrong ? Send it in to an English teacher and they will have a coronary . Trust me.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 22, 2016 at 2:23 pm
 
A mathematical equation is either true or false. But language is alive, and changes with time and popular usage.
“Although widely disapproved as nonstandard and more common in the habitual speech of the less educated, ain’t … is flourishing in American English”
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ain't
So I ain’t troubled when people say I am “a Jehovah’s Witness.”
If I understand what they mean, that’s the important thing. That’s what truth is all about.
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 Winston Smith says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:06 pm
 
I agree Simon. By the usage assigned to this phrasing by the Watchtower, they have changed the standard grammatical usage into a proper name like Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jehovah’s Witness. That makes it much more difficult to assign one and only one grammatical usage.
But it’s only a minor point of interest and not worth debating too much. It’s a rather small issue in the grand scale of issues at hand here in our forum.
“That’s all I have to say about that” – Forrest Gump
WS

 
 
 Ejecting to Sanity says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:11 pm
 
Agreed

 
 
 
 Robert67 says:

 January 22, 2016 at 3:28 pm
 
Why you trippin yo ain’t no need for one of grammar nazis
Reply
 
 
 
 
 IT Engineers Without Borders says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:26 pm
 
Either way, you were still a “hot mess”…
Reply
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 23, 2016 at 2:59 am
 
I always hated that term ‘one of Jehovah’s Witnesses’. I remember an elder at an assembly brought it up once and told us that is how we should be called. I distinctly remembered thinking ‘That sounds ridiculous.’ and I still think so. One of Jehovah’s Witnesses sounds lame to me.
I remember I was working with a sister at the doors once and she used that term to describe who we were. I absolutely cringed because it sounded so ridiculous. Sorry Garrett, I don’t mind at all someone saying “I’m a Jehovah’s Witness” and personally, I do not believe it is grammatically incorrect to use it. But that is just my personal opinion on the subject.
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 enuffsenuff says:

 January 24, 2016 at 4:45 am
 
A strange argument over grammar but the correct way to say our religious persuasion is “I am A Witness of Jehovah”.
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 Covert Fade says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:19 am
 
It’s grammatically more correct, but my problem is that the phrase implies that there IS a Jehovah as described by Watchtower that one can be a Witness of. It’s a bit like calling the religion “The Truth,” it just feels to me like loaded language that gives the religion a certain credence I do not feel it deserves. Hence my own preference for the grammatically incorrect but less loaded “A Jehovah’s Witness.”
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 JBob says:

 January 22, 2016 at 11:11 am
 
When I was younger, I heard a braintease about 3 men and 5 black or white hats (http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/the-puzzle-of-the-3-hats/?_r=0); it seems to be a similar riddle with religion/spirituality. We are given a hat and if we have enough lifetime and open-minds, we can observe other hats in front of us but none of us knows without deliberation who has the “truth” hat. IF there is absolute truth about God and spirituality.
Thus, if we believe that the Creator (this Higher Power) provided multiple permutations of personality, style, POVs, and character, then we must assume He (or She) also set in motion multiple paths thru which to connect suiting multiple permutations of personality, style and character. Thus, the allegory is more aligned to the three blind men ushered into a circus tent to examine an unknown beast and to perceive an elephant through touch, smell, and sound. Each arrives at a filtered conclusion different from the facts, and different from each man’s experience of the beast.
JW’s perceive the Creator through the filter of a world of chaotic, demonic madness which has no solution but from Heaven and a Ravaging and Conquering God who will re-create. Their Krishna–Gita 11:32, “my present task is destruction”. Atonement is not via connecting to the Creator but through the Creator’s creation, an organization of men. Is that creature worship?
Islam, as practiced by some obscure corners of that sect, offers an explanation similar to other “universal” religious viewpoints on a final judgement. Quran 10:47 (http://2pm.co/demo/2500/10/47/), roughly stating, “And for every nation there is a Messenger. So when their Messenger (of God) comes, the issue between them is judged with all fairness, and they are not done injustice to.”
Naturally, JW’s in present incarnation can not take on this cloak of universal salvation for internal control and administrative, fiscal survival. Also, if you think I’m a bit over-the-top with my Oppenheimer-esque quotes, at one time some Watchtower leaders speculated that J* would induce the nations (“Kings North and South”) to turn their ICBM arsenals against each other [citation needed].
Reply
 
 
 Jill says:

 January 22, 2016 at 11:28 am
 
And yet, I had a presiding overseer who was known to remark during field service, “kill ’em all, let jehovah sort them out.”
Oh, how we laughed. My only excuse was that I was a teenager, trying desperately to please my “elders”. His excuse was that he was disconnected from his conscience.
Reply
 
 questionall451 says:

 January 23, 2016 at 7:20 am
 
That is funny. I wish I could have heard him say that. I remember how uncomfortable some people were when I used the term “kill”, like “Jehovah is going to KILL all the unrighteous.” They would tell me that “destroy”, or better yet, “remove” is more appropriate. I still like to use that word a lot when talking to family about Armageddon. You can see the little grimmace of dissonance in their eyes.
Reply
 
 
 Pow says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:06 am
 
Pow, wow an elder quoting a Catholic leader from the darkest days of the Catholic crusades, where they were willing to kill their own in an attempt to root out the protestant sympathizers….could that happen again? In a kingdom hall?
Reply
 
 
 
 Patricia says:

 January 22, 2016 at 11:40 am
 
Great article. Every time I hear Morris speak, he shows what a foolish man he truly is.
Reply
 
 
 Lisa Clark says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:01 pm
 
Great article Covert. Keep up the writing. I wish I had this kind of forum when I was trying to get out as they say. We all use different terminology depending on where we live. Seems slightly pointless and petty.
Lisa
Reply
 
 
 Martin says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:03 pm
 
Great article. And I’d like to add to this that once you are resurrected, if you get this far, you will have precisely 1000 years to preach and teach to the “unrighteous”. Then Satan is released AGAIN. So, you may have behaved yourself all that time only to be stumbled by Satan at the last hurdle and then be destroyed for all eternity. Although Watchtower don’t name this moment, it is actually a second Armageddon. So it’s like “thanks for all your hard work in preaching and teaching to the resurrected, but unfortunately you have been stumbled by Satan. Oh well, thanks for all you have done, but I’m going to destroy you for good this time.”
Reply
 
 
 Markie says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:07 pm
 
Once
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:09 pm
 
Great article Covert Fade – according to JW reasoning, genocide is OK when Jehovah does it, but it is not OK when others do it.
To begin with, is Armageddon even possible according to JW theology?According to the WT, Armageddon will only strike when the JWs are the only religion remaining and they subsequently come under attack. The JWs being the only religion that will remain after the destruction of false religion by the UN is a necessary prerequisite in order for Armageddon to start according to WT theology. Without this prerequisite being met, Armageddon cannot start.
According to the WT, it will be the UN’s one thought to destroy all other religions except the JWs as the JWs are the only peace-loving religion on earth, and God will put it in the UN’s heart to carry out this one thought. But is it true that the JWs are the only peace-loving religion on earth to abstain from participating in warfare?
 There are in fact a number of religions which do not participate in warfare. Christian churches known for their stance against war include:
-Moravians (one of the very first Protestant religions dating back to the 1500’s)
 -Brethern (Dunkards) groups, including Church of the Brethren
 -Anabaptist groups, including
 Mennonites (16th century group numbering 1.5 million)
 Hutterites
 Schwenkfelders
 Bruderhof Communities
 Amish (numbering approximately 200,000)
 -Society of Friends (Quakers)
-Doukhobors – 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
-Molokans – 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
 -Some Pentecostal groups such as the
 Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
 -Seven Day Adventists
 -Community of Christ
 -Christadelphians
 -Worldwide Church of God
-Pax Christi – A Catholic peace movement
-Fellowship of Reconciliation – A group formed in 1914 to unite pacifists regardless of denomination.
 All major religious denominations have affiliated associations including
 -Anglican Pacifist Fellowship
 -Methodist Peace Fellowship
 -Baptist Peace Fellowship
 -Orthodox Peace Fellowship
 -Lutheran Peace Fellowship
 -Presbyterian Peace Fellowship
 (list taken from:http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/war.php)
The UN would therefore have no reason to destroy these religions. God would also have to put it in the heart of the UN to spare these Christian religions, as well as the non-Christian religions which do not participate in warfare. Bottom line – the JW’s prerequisite that they be the only religion spared destruction by the UN in order for Armageddon to strike will not be realized.
Reply
 
 Illuminati says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:42 pm
 
Well, dee2, (no ar-too?)
I just sent the NGO office of the UN a reminder email note that they’re supposed to start carting the other religious groups off to the “Amtrak concentration camps” sometime “just around the corner” and somewhere in the USA “Heartland” [of course, JW’s are not as extreme as this web-slinger’s theories… http://americanholocaustcoming.blogspot.com/2009/02/confirmed-amtrak-deathcamp-of-beech.html%5D.
We’re going to need a bigger camp..
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:16 pm
 
Some pretty gruesome imagery there. Though I had to chuckle at the pic where Armageddon strikes at the moment some mugger with a pistol in his hand was trying to rob a lady. Poor guy probably thinks he brought it on. Talk about a guilt trip.
 Anyway, something in particular just blew my mind. I (& I’m sure many others) was always mystified how the rest of the world are so tolerant of Watchtower, viewing Witnesses as “nice” people, basically giving that whole organization a free pass (a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card, if you prefer). And you nailed it! They have TWO different stories!! One is for their members – Armageddon will UNEQUIVOCALLY destroy ALL NON-Jehovah’s Witnesses. Then there’s the watered-down, candy-coated version they tell the public – Well, no one knows, only Jehovah can read hearts, blah blah blah. I am FUMING right now!!! What a bunch of PHONIES & SHYSTERS! This makes me sick. If I ever had a shred of sympathy for WT, it is GONE. This behavior is low-down, duplicitous, deceitful, cowardly, dishonest,… It’s lower than a snake’s belly. It’s behavior worthy of the lowest kind of con-artist and scumbag. Really despicable. Same thing when Jackson was backed into a corner during ARC, and claimed it would be “presumptuous” to say WT was God’s only Channel on Earth. What spineless, groveling jellyfish. I didn’t think I could be any more disgusted with this organization, but in spite of all the horror stories of child abuse, I am feeling a real visceral loathing of this organization that I have never felt before. I could go on, but I’ve said enough. Thank you for this article.
Reply
 
 Chiafade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:15 pm
 
You took the words right out of my mouth. I can never EVER respect this group con men. Nor can I condone the behavior of the elders that continue to make excuses for them. There simply are no excuses for this vile behavior.
 Your comment about how people view them as “nice people” demonstrates perfectly why cults are so dangerous. There is this benign facade that hides what lie beneath the surface. Watchtower is like the spitting spider which gently carresses its prey with a series of cautious touches. A prey item that can literally obliterate the spitting spider in seconds will sit there oblivious to the daface while the spider carresses it until it gets close enough. Once within striking distance the spider spits venom laced silk onto its intended target immobilizing it. A few more shots of webbing then it goes in for the final blow, a fatal venom injection.
That was many of us. Even some very intelligent people capable of intellectually decimating any witness have fallen victim to watchtowers seductive ways. We became entangled by a fantasy that would appeal to any decent person. Freeing ourselves came/comes with a price. A limb an ear, half of our face, whatever. I’d rather lose any of those than be eaten alive by a cult.
Reply
 
 Chiafade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:17 pm
 
That should say danger not daface ;p
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Markie says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:21 pm
 
I know this is a hate JWs website. But if your trying to have some objectivity what about all the other religions of the world? Don’t most of all religions think theirs is the correct one and all are to die when the Messiah returns? For example the rapture? Or don’t born again Christians think that they are the only ones to be saved and the rest of the world are going to burn in hell? Don’t jews believe they are the chosen ones? Muslim think they are the only true religion. Not sure what they think is going to happen to all the infidels.
What I am trying to say is that all religions have their crazy quirks. I for one still believe that if there is a god he is bigger then all of us and religions don’t really matter.
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:28 pm
 
Hi there.
 I assure you this is not a JW hate website. I have family and many friends who are still Jehovah’s Witnesses who I love dearly. What this site does is criticise The Watchtower organisation, and present evidence and argument that Watchtower treachings are not only factually erroneous, but often dangerous and that their practices and policies cause significant harm to those we loved still trapped inside.
I have to say, your “what about other religions” comment doesn’t make sense to me. Do you want this website to start critiquing all religions? That’s like demanding a website set up to raise awareness of poverty must also raise awareness of every other aspect of human suffering if it is to be legitimate. That makes no sense, especially when resources are limited.
I will be honest: when I hear someone respond to a specific criticism of watchtower by failing to address the specifics of the points raised and instead saying “But what about all other religions?” it feels like that person is trying to divert attention from the issue.
May I ask, what are your feelings about Watchtower’s teaching on Armageddon, since this is the issue under discussion in these comments?
Reply
 
 Michel says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:06 pm
 
It’s like a criminal who is asking the judge: but what about all those other criminals?
Reply
 
 
 Markie says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:17 pm
 
My point was that you are singling out the JW beliefs about Armageddon like its the only religion in the world that teaches some type of chatclysmic end to the world and to all nonbelievers. And in a way or so it seems like your aligning Jehovah with ISIS where you mention the Yazidi people. As a JW I take umbrage to your remarks.
 I believe that if some type of Armageddon ever happens we will all be shocked by its outcome, the JWs too. My thoughts are that if there is a a god out there watching the mass killings that are happening all over the world (amongst other things)why isn’t he stopping it? Its seems to be aptly proven that man can not rule man justly.
 The Watchtower a few years back described people that are hangers-on. Using this system to get a head like a higher education, high paying job etc..and still going to the meetings. Thats me! I don’t put much faith in the 7 tubby aging rock stars in Brooklyn. So, to put it succinctly, no I don’t think Armageddon well ever happen. And I am not trying to argue but just trying to point out that most religions have similar thoughts on a chatclysmic end to the world.
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:35 pm
 
Hi Markie.
The article never said that JW’s were the only religious group in the world that had an Armageddon style doctrine. I’m still not sure why you think that’s so important.
Yes. Other religions do indeed have have gruesome teachings about divine genocide, no argument from me on that point, but that does not somehow make the implications of Watchtowers Armageddon teachings any less horrifying.
If I stole money from an old lady, would my saying “well other people are stealing money from old ladies as well” excuse my actions? Of course not. So why does “well other religious have teachings justifying violent slaughter from God as well” justify your own?
I just don’t get the logic of your argument here.
I’m sorry if you take umbrage at my point that the people ISIS are slaughtering to the horror of everyone, including JW’s, would also be slaughtered by God (according to Watchtower) if he brought Armageddon now, but your umbrage doesn’t make it any less true. Now, a logical counter argument on this point might make it less true. I’m genuinely happy to consider a logical counterpoint from you on this issue, but I’m afraid mere umbrage is no use as a compelling argument. :)
I’m also genuinely curious on another matter you mention. You point out that you have no faith in the Governing Body, but still consider yourself a JW. Do you feel that the current GB have apostatised away from the true faith, or do you think that Jehovah will cleanse his organisation?
Do you hold all current Watchtower teachings or do you think that some are mistaken?
To repeat, I’m not trying to attack or catch you out, I’m genuinely interested in how you see the current state of the religion, I’ve not before spoken with someone who identifies as a JW but appears so unimpressed by the Governing Body, and I’m curious.
Reply
 
 Markie says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:52 am
 
The GB are nothing more then imperfect men who think they are doing what’s right. I don’t think the current group have a clue what to do with this generation thing. They have over spent other people’s money yet they tell you not to get a higher education and so on. The bible tells us not to put our faith in earthling man and that includes them. I feel they they are trying yet they are often misguided.

 
 
 Robert67 says:

 January 23, 2016 at 4:00 pm
 
@Markie or anyone still not aware of the big issues in the organization.
 Watch the whole thing and come back with questions




 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 23, 2016 at 7:58 pm
 
@ Markie
RE: “I feel they [the GB] are trying, but they are often misguided.”
 — Misguided by whom? – The “Holy Spirit”???

 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 24, 2016 at 9:42 pm
 
It all comes down to whether you really believe the Bible. I believe that is the issue Markie. The Watchtower’s interpretation has proved to be false in important areas of understanding. Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God? If you do and you stay in it, then the Watchtower could lead you absolutely astray from everlasting life. This is a big deal.

 
 
 
 
 Average Joe says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:18 pm
 
My thoughts on Har-Mageddon have always been that God will read hearts and destroy truly WICKED people. I don’t water down the message I preach as that is what I believe. After coming across this site, for some while now, I think that if my belief is not true and that of the WTS is, then I’m going to be killed off too. That only adds to my guilt; not your fault CF! The WTS are good at doing that.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 5:29 am
 
AJ
Personally, I don’t believe in a future great battle between God and humans such as Har-Mageddon. My thinking is that the Creator has given mankind the tools to grow into the type of benevolent society we all desire. In general, humanity is evolving to be less violent and more tolerant, with more people being given a chance to reach their best potential. I guess you can say that I have faith in the Creator’s work as being “very good” as the scriptures say.
That said, I can relate to and respect your thoughts on Har-Mageddon. They are logical and consistent with the belief in a benevolent God. And who wouldn’t want to see God eliminate all the murderers, rapists, and child-molesters – i.e. the truly wicked – from the world? I am glad to hear that you preach in accord with your conscience and do not let a man-made organization control your integrity.
WS
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 12:35 pm
 
@markie
Thank you for clarifying how you feel on this matter.
Can I ask, do you feel that Jehovah is guiding the organisation at all? You feel that the GB are misguided and unsure how to deal with the generations issue. Do you not feel that Jehovah should be guiding them in this matter if this is his true organisation, or do you feel that Jehovah is allowing them to flounder without his guidance for a specific reason?

 
 
 
 
 
 JBob says:

 January 22, 2016 at 3:19 pm
 
@Markie, the point that your note makes is confirming what CF explains in his article. We can also argue that any group claiming to have exclusivity on spiritual “wisdom” / truth (be it called a quirk or peculiarity) is suspect, especially since that group would need to dominate the world in the “short time” it left for a remnant of believers to be “saved”. Furthermore, since all groups claim to be “THE one and only,” we automatically know that the vast majority are liars so when we find their history is rife with misquotes, missed predictions (big red barn wall, hurled white paint brush misses), and flip-flops in directions [not a slight turn of the steering wheel to stay on course, a complete 180–going in opposite direction], I — and, not sure about the other “true believers” like Covert, Cedars and Jeni–find it difficult to sip, gargle and swallow the “Kool-Aid” without a healthy dose of skepticism and reluctance to have unconditional obedience and submission, or respect for authority [respect has to be earned, by the way–at least that is what husbands are told].
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 5:04 am
 
@Markie,
 Your comment: “Or don’t born again Christians think that they are the only ones to be saved and the rest of the world are going to burn in hell?”
Being born into the JWs, at one point I actually thought that there was a religious denomination called The Born Agains. Later I came to realize that “born again” referred to a number of Protestant or Envangelical Religions including Baptists and Pentecostals as well as others.
Most “Born Agains” believe that everyone who puts faith in Christ and accepts him as their personal savior will be saved and raptured. So they are quite different from the Witnesses who beilieve that only their specific brand of Christianity will be saved.
Also, “Born Agains” will tell you their beliefs on the rapture and hell the moment they meet you. They don’t have one set of teachings for when they are trying to convert you and another for after you are a member of their church.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 Andrew Haas says:

 January 22, 2016 at 1:41 pm
 
I was a Witness in 1996 when Martin Bryant killed 35 people and wounded 23 at nearby Port Arthur in Tasmania. My congregation situated about 80 kilometres from Port Arthur and we had many friends who were in the Port Arthur congregation. One of our close friends had a daughter that worked at the tourist site so when we got the news about the massacre we were frantic with worry. The massacre effected every Australian, in particular Tasmanians, who had to this point lived in relative security. We were all grieving for the loss of life and trauma – except some Witnesses. The next meeting immediately after the massacre was a real eye opener for me. Remember that this was a few days after the event. At no time during the meeting did any elder get on stage to address the grief that most were feeling. There was no mention of the massacre and the need to pray for the victims, their families, nor the community. After the meeting I called the Elders together and sobbing with grief attacked the elders lack of compassion and natural empathy for the community and members of the congregation that were struggling. The elders told me that no one would need support particularly congregation members who would realise that this was just a sign of the last days. When an organisation can teach mass extermination by God of all people not Organisationally connected we end up with people who have lost all natural affection. So began my slow but eventual departure from the Machine.
Reply
 
 Jeffreycanning says:

 January 22, 2016 at 2:23 pm
 
So sad, we visited Tassie a year after that terrible event, picked up some acorns from there and planted them on my farm in Vic. I still think of those poor souls when i water my oaks… I even have a sign on my farm ‘SEVEN OAKS’ in remembrance. Jah would have to plant out the entire goldilocks sphere to remember all he kills at Armageddon, cept he don’t really exist, do he…
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 3:50 pm
 
The JWs must be the only religion that relishes/is indifferent to bad news – they need bad things to happen so that they can justify that they are living in the last days.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 2:12 pm
 
The WT uses carefully selected words to say one thing to the public, and something completely different to their members regarding who will be destroyed at Armageddon. The FAQ answer means something different to the public than it does to the organization. The candy-coated FAQ answer demonstrates the length the WT will go to get good public relations to give themselves a good image to draw in more converts.
The last thing the public wants to hear, is “you will die forever if you don’t join our religion”, so the WT coats it all in sugar, and carefully words their public statements to make it seem like they are more liberal, but they clearly are not from the mountain of qualifiers that they print in their literature.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:39 pm
 
WT FAQ: “…….Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation”.
To the public those who serve God would include every religion and faith on the planet that believes in monotheism, but this is certainly not the real position of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
WT public relations machinations.
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 John Baptist says:

 January 22, 2016 at 2:17 pm
 
Great Job and i enjoyed your summaries of the Australian royal commision. And who cares about grammar right now. Your fine. The article is about Armageddon!
 That is nothing more then a opinion or smoke screen and yes things are said differently in different regions of the world.
 All i can say is John 14:6 Says everyone not just the witnesses. I just wish these folks could read the bible and stop getting it wrong only to further their cause.
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 smmcroberts says:

 January 22, 2016 at 2:34 pm
 
Great article!
 I have one little quibble with the statement: “He will have no need of human help, so Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be involved in any actual combat. Their role will simply be to stand and watch.”
At one time the Watchtower taught that the “anointed” would certainly participate in the slaughter. I don’t know if this has ever been revised by so-called “new light,” and would be grateful to anyone who can show if it has.
 For the quote on the anointed helping Jesus to kill billions of people, please see: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/jehovahs-witness-history/anointed-jehovahs-witnesses-kill-me/
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 Michel says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:14 pm
 
*** re chap. 39 p. 281 pars. 11-12 The Warrior-King Triumphs at Armageddon ***
 Without a doubt, when the time comes, those of Christ’s brothers already in heaven will have a part in shepherding people and nations with that iron rod. What, though, of God’s servants here on earth? The John class will have no active part in the fighting at Armageddon; neither will its loyal companions, those peoples out of all nations who have been streaming to Jehovah’s spiritual house of worship.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 3:29 pm
 
It should be noted that the FAQ does not address who will survive Armageddon:https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/who-saved/
It gives an evasive answer which addresses the WT’s promised resurrection that will occur AFTER Armageddon. No mention is made of the JW teaching that this resurrection will NOT include people who died AT/DURING Armageddon since they have already been judged by God.
Better to die BEFORE Armageddon than AT/DURING Armageddon. lol.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 23, 2016 at 7:45 am
 
The WT FAQ does not address what will happen at/during Armageddon, it does not address who will be destroyed at/during Armageddon.
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 EverydayExplorer says:

 January 22, 2016 at 4:08 pm
 
A great article, Covert Fade. Potent, pertinent and fine.
Think it is probably part of human psyche to ‘entertain’ a doomsday philosophy. Maybe even part of human psyche to welcome and experience the visceral shock of a refutation of said doomsday in that individual’s lifetime.
Much respect. Look forward to more of your articles.
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 D. Charles Pyle says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:23 pm
 
Thanks for the article. Yes, it is true that some Witnesses will feel some degree of discomfort discussing details of this Armageddon teaching with outsiders. Some, I would venture, would even lie about it.
I experienced that firsthand with another teaching of theirs, namely, that the resurrection holds out no hope for families on Paradise Earth. I once was greeted by a Witness standing in the parking lot near my car some years ago. I looked at the pictures in the brochures she was holding that showed all these happy families together on Paradise Earth.
I asked her if the Witnesses really believed what their brochure was showing, and then asked her if that was always the case. I then stated that I asked because I knew that the Watchtower taught that families weren’t going to be families together on Paradise Earth. She assured me that the truth was that families would be together as families, living forever on Earth, and that this was what Witnesses were teaching, and that they had always taught that teaching.
She then asked me if I would be interested in hearing more. I took her number down and told her that I would need to check something and then get back to her on that. I went home, pulled out my copy of “Is This Life All There Is?” and read the portion that stated that no hope is held out for families in the resurrection, and the Watchtower’s “scriptural” justification for saying that (page 176-180, at least they admit that they don’t know how the living arrangements are going to work or even where in that text; the woman insisted that she and the Witnesses knew and always believed and taught what she had told me). I immediately called the woman and left a message informing her that I would not be interested in listening to more because she did not tell me the truth. I also quoted the section of that book in the message I left for her as well. But, it is most deceptive to picture smiling people together in family relationships in their public literature when the Watchtower was actually teaching something else.
Basically, it seems that everybody is going to either be living together unmarried on Paradise Earth, or each individual will have his/her own house, separate from everybody else, for there will be no marriage or family there. And, who are going to raise all the children that will be resurrected? Millions of single mothers? Who knows? If everybody ceased to be married after death and the resurrection, and there won’t be living together in sin, why do they show pictures of families together on Paradise Earth? Maybe there was more light offered along the way and I just didn’t hear about it.
Worst of all, the Watchtower has long preached this final battle of Armageddon that will take place all over the Earth, but most people aren’t really aware, and if they are aware, they aren’t thinking about it, the battle of Armageddon isn’t going to be a worldwide event, if one believes the Bible on the matter. Armageddon isn’t the name of the war or battle, it is the name of the place where the battle will take occur. Armageddon is Har-Megiddo, and it is located in Israel. The Watchtower hadn’t even gotten that right when they started getting people all up a knot about this! Sure, the Bible does teach that the wicked will be wiped out but that isn’t at the battle of Armageddon. That is another event entirely, as any careful readers of their Bibles (not those who solely read the NWT, at any rate) come to know.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 6:57 pm
 
@D Charles Pyle:
 Interesting point about people living together unmarried on Paradise Earth.
According to Luke 20:34-36:
“The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE. In fact, NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANY MORE, for THEY ARE LIKE THE ANGELS, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection.”
As per Luke 20:34-36 and WT theology, those resurrected on earth will be unmarried eunuchs. And how many unmarried eunuchs will there be?
 The Population Reference Bureau has estimated that 108 BILLION people have lived on earth as at mid-2011:http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx
(not to mention how ecologically unsustainable it will be for the earth to accommodate 108 billion resurrected who CAN NEVER DIE plus the 8 million JW (according to WT stats) Armageddon survivors.
*****************************************
 The application of Luke 20:34-36 to WT’s promised earthly resurrection:
 According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 and will conclude at the outbreak of the Great Tribulation (I suppose any of the 144,000 who are on the earth at the time of the outbreak of the Great Tribulation will be raptured) – that is, the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 occurs in THIS system of things not in THAT (post-Great Tribulation/post-Armageddon) system of things to which the resurrection spoken about at Luke 20:34-36 pertains:
“All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914 and his riding forth to start his kingly conquest by cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons.” ***Revelation, Its Grand Climax At Hand! p. 103***
The resurrection of Luke 20:34-36 therefore does not apply to the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 since the resurrection of the 144,000 occurs in THIS system of things according to WT theology. The resurrection of Luke 20:34-36 must therefore apply to the WT’s promised earthly resurrection in “THAT system of things” to come.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:00 pm
 
****Correction****
 108 billion resurrected who CAN NEVER DIE [[[MINUS]]] the 8 million JW (according to WT stats) Armageddon survivors.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:04 pm
 
I meant to say that the estimated number of persons who would be resurrected are the number of persons who have ever lived minus the number of JWs who would survive Armageddon.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:42 pm
 
*****The estimated number of persons who would be resurrected are the number of persons who have ever lived (108 billion as at mid-2011) minus the number of persons who are alive when Armageddon strikes.
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 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 12:37 pm
 
@D. Charles Pyle
 Good points – the JW’s often fail to take into account the illogical conclusions that become necessary based on the full application of their teachings. According to the current dogma, the only families that will exist in paradise are those few who survive Armageddon and their descendants. And years ago they used to teach that at some point after Armageddon everyone would become single. Thus in marriage ceremonies they used to say ‘until death or divine termination do us part.’
They also give little-to-no thought as to how this paradise will be administrated, how food will be produced and made available, how necessities such as water, power, medicine, etc. will be supplied. Millions of folks running around naked in a huge garden full of fruit trees is a bit far-fetched. They often poke fun at other Christian denominations who envision their future in heaven as sitting on a white, fluffy cloud and playing the harp, but when you consider the conclusions that result from the JW teachings about the future you find that they are equally absurd.
WS
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 Tara says:

 January 22, 2016 at 5:54 pm
 
Great article. I looked at the artwork and noticed the lack of children and babies. There are no mothers or fathers clinging to their little ones as buildings and fire balls fall and engulf them. No, they have a woman in a sleezy looking dress and a guy with a skull on his T shirt, a guy brandishing a gun…. yup, lets show how the ‘low life’s’ of society will die because they deserve it don’t they? But we won’t show the true horror of families being killed. Why not show a picture of children being crushed in a stampede as people try to flee the toppling buildings or throw in a few animals ….. If you are going to do it WT lets get real about it.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 7:24 pm
 
@Tara
There are no animals in the picture because according to the WT, Isaiah 65:17-25 and Isaiah 11:6-9 indicate that animals will be in paradise. Animals will therefore be spared destruction at Armageddon.
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 Tara says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:43 pm
 
I’ll be sure to tell my cats that some witness will be around to dig them out from the rubble heap I called home and let them know they are now free to do whatever they want….
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 ruthlee says:

 January 23, 2016 at 12:14 pm
 
Who is going to milk the cows during the great trib? Have you noticed in the first illustration a woman holding a girl (just the legs showing) A bit gruesome but shows at least one kid getting zapped. ruthlee
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 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 12:42 pm
 
I guess animals count more than non-JW humans, huh?
WS
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 Covert Fade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 4:55 am
 
Interestingly enough, there are some older WT artworks that do indeed portray children dying. I guess they’ve back off a little from that in recent years, but you can also see this happening in some of the WT artwork representing the flood.
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 Tara says:

 January 23, 2016 at 8:12 am
 
I bet that this isn’t lingered over on the door to door work…. doesn’t exactly ‘advertise, advertise, advertise’ does it. PR at it’s worst.
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 Ready 4 to Fade says:

 January 22, 2016 at 6:53 pm
 
Great article, I find it amazing how there is no end to the logical fallacies that can be taken to their logical conclusion and thus be proven ridiculous. Speaking of ISIS, my father an elder spoke admiringly of them a few months ago in a confidential conversation, of their rejection of the Western, materialistic lifestyle. I know he’s a peaceful American JW who has no intention of initiating violence, but the passivity with which he can stand by and manage to find a redeeming quality in such an evil organization as ISIS, belies the mentality which has permitted the child abuse situation within the JW org. Funny that Witnesses accuse the so-called worldly media for desensitization, seems the other way around to me.
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 Chiafade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:57 pm
 
Desensitize is a great way to put it. Here is an excerpt of a recent conversation I had with a couple of elders who were trying to justify not reporting child abuse:
Me:”If someone tells me they’ve been abused by someone in the hall. I’m getting the proper QUALIFIED authorities involved. You brothers can deal judicially with the abuser while he sits in a prison cell”. Also, if someone admits to me that they have abused a child they have two choices. Should I escort you to the police station to turn yourself in? Or you can wait here while I call the police? ”
Elders: “well if you get the police involved in one crime are you going to get them involved in all crimes?”
Me: (astounded by this comment) A crime? Yes, yes I am.
There’s more to this conversation but the idea that a crime should be reported didn’t even occur to them. “You should call the branch first” is the modus operandi for elders. Even the reporting of crimes was a black and white issue for them. “You wouldn’t report an assault would you”…
To think that men who are trained to behave in this manner are instructing people on day to day living is scary. It is irresponsible and inexcusable. I throw it in the face of any elder that if God approves of that kind of conduct then he lacks ethics.
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 anonymous4 says:

 January 22, 2016 at 6:54 pm
 
@ Markie
 U seem to be hedging ur bets. It’s like, Most of this seems bogus, but…just in case, I’ll stay connected with the org. If u truly believe in “Jehovah”, it kind of seems to me like u’re playing him for a fool. Seems pretty pointless, since he is supposedly able to read hearts.
 Regarding other religions & their own “fire & brimstone” doctrines, I have 3 points to make:
 1 Most of their followers don’t take those doctrines seriously anymore, whereas most JW’s sincerely believe in a coming Armageddon (so far)
 2 The Rapture, End of the World, Hellfire, Death to Infidels, Chosen Nation, etc, etc, etc doctrines of mainstream religions are out there & well-known. Those religions make no attempt to hide or candy-coat them. Everyone knows Hellfire is part & parcel of Catholicism. ISIS does not execute people & then say it was an accident. In fact, they want the world to know exactly what they’re doing. Watchtower, in their own sleazy, despicable way, have 2 different versions of Armageddon’s judgement. They intentionally DECEIVE the world about their true doctrine, so as not to garner disfavor.
 3 This Site is not just about WT’s Armageddon teaching. If u’ve been following it at all, u should be able to see the GLARING differences between WT & every mainstream religion, a MOUNTAIN of EVIDENCE pointing to the FACT that The Watchtower Society of Jehovah’s Witnesses is a CULT. THAT reality is what we are all opposing!
 My advice to u is, Pick a side. Take a stand. U have the all the data to make an informed decision. ‘Get out of her…if u don’t want to share in her sins & receive part of her plagues’. U seem like an intelligent person. What are u waiting for? Time to start living.
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 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 1:45 pm
 
@A4
 I 100% agree with you. I especially appreciate your third point. The concept that JWs are no worse than any other religion is quite flawed. Are they as bad as radical Islam terrorists or extreme Fundamentalist Christians (the type that stockpile weapons or bomb abortion clinics)? No. Are they worse than main stream Christian religions such as Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalian, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.? Yes. And the reason they are worse is the undue influence they exercise over their members; those aspects of the BITE model that classify them as a cult. When they forbid their members to get a good education, to accept life-saving medical treatment, to report criminal acts against children to the authorities, and a plethora of other restrictions the majority of the group obey. Why? Because of their undue influence. That is the major issue at stake.
WS
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 Eric Arthur Blair says:

 January 22, 2016 at 7:21 pm
 
Great article CF, excellent reasoning. This was the issue that started my cognitive dissonance and eventual fade from “the truth.” I started to examine Watchtower’s teaching on this subject, using only the scriptures and their own publications, particularly the revelation Climax book. I started making notes and eventually wrote about 30,000 words on it. My conclusion is that everybody will get a resurrection after Armageddon, and that Armageddon is not going to be the blood bath they describe, merely a cut off point.
I can’t list of all my reasons for this conclusion here, and Revelation is highly symbolic, but I find it significant that at Rev 19:19, 20 the “wild beast” and “false prophet” are destroyed in “the fiery lake”, but “the rest” of humanity are “killed off with the long sword” which is symbolic of general death. My own feeling on this is that Armageddon will be akin to the 185,000 Assyrians killed silently in their sleep by one angel in one night. “The rest” described in Rev 19:20 are then included in the general resurrection described five verses later in Rev 20:5.
Watchtower’s reasoning on this is that those destroyed at Armageddon are the “goats” who “depart into everlasting cutting off” described at Matthew 25:46. But they are wrong on this because the sheep described in this same parable go “into everlasting life”, and simply put, even by their own reasoning, nobody goes off into everlasting life at Armageddon because there is still the test at the end of the 1,000 year reign. So it is clear to me that the separating of the sheep and the goats is the same event as described at the end of this 1,000 year reign in Rev 20:15. (Note also that the attack of Gog and Magog takes place at the end of the 1,000 year reign also, after Satan is released from the abyss.)
Also, scriptures such as Romans 6:7 make it clear that everybody who dies, regardless of the cause, has been acquitted of their sins, and 1 Corinthians 15:22 makes it clear that Christ’s ransom covers everybody – “for just as in Adam ALL are dying, so also in the Christ ALL will be made alive.”
So, Watchtower’s teaching on this subject does not conform with scripture and is clearly designed to be fear mongering – a control technique.
I should add that I am merely using the scriptures to show inconsistencies in the Watchtower theology on this subject (and there are many more scriptures and points I could make with regard to this, but I don’t want to start a theological debate.) I am not passing judgement on whether this genocide is justified or not, or consistent with a loving God, but I do believe that a God of Love should act in a manner consistent with this claim, and that remains to be seen.
I don’t think for a second that I have all the answers. But I do think that if the only lesson we take from this world into the new world (if there is one) is how to use our free will in a way that is to the benefit of everybody, then it is a lesson worth learning. But again, that remains to be seen. In the meantime, if this life is all there is then make the most of it and live in a way that makes the world a better place now.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 8:34 pm
 
@Martin
 RE: the second Armageddon
The second Armageddon/test at the end of Christ’s 1000-year reign which the WT claims will determine who will live forever (Revelation 20: 7-10) will be meaningless for persons who have been resurrected. Whether or not persons who have been resurrected pass that test is neither here nor there since resurrected persons CAN NO LONGER DIE:
Luke 20:34-36:
“The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE. In fact, NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANY MORE, for THEY ARE LIKE THE ANGELS, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection.”
The only persons to whom this test/second Armageddon will apply are the JW Armageddon survivors since they, although having lived 1000 years (without any freak accidents happening?), can still die. Interestingly, according to WT theology, the number of persons who will fail the test and be destroyed will be “as the sand of the sea” (Revelation 20:8), a large number. So the JWs will manage to make it through the first Armageddon but a large number of them will fail this final test/second Armageddon and be put to death.
So only resurrected persons are guaranteed to live forever since they CAN NO LONGER DIE. There is no guarantee for the JW Armageddon survivors however – what is guaranteed for them is that a large number of them, “as the sand of the sea” (Revelation 20:8), are in fact going to die at the second Armageddon/final test.
There will be trouble in Paradise given the fact that resurrected persons can no longer die – resurrected persons who are nonconformists cannot be put to death.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 23, 2016 at 7:39 am
 
According to WT theology, it’s better to be a resurrected person than an Armageddon survivor if you want to guarantee that you will live forever on Paradise earth – resurrected persons definitely have an advantage when it comes to the second Armageddon/final test; they are guaranteed to survive given that they can no longer die.
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 Big B says:

 January 24, 2016 at 3:55 pm
 
Hello Dee2; Just for my clarification, which resurrection do you speak of? The first one in which it is said “Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years”.– Rev. 20:6
In other words, those who make up the heavenly class (144,000) will never be tested or die the “second death” as they receive immortality at the time of their resurrection.
Anyone surviving Armageddon as well as those in the second “general” earthly resurrection can always be destroyed in the second death. According to JW doctrine if, hypothetically, Napoleon or Hitler came back during the second general resurrection and tried anything before the 1000 year reign ended these two gentlemen would be destroyed in the second death (a non-Adamic forever death) thrown symbolically in the “lake of fire” of eternal destruction.
At least that is what I gleaned after 55 years of this nonsense.
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 Big B says:

 January 24, 2016 at 3:55 pm
 
Hello Dee2; Just for my clarification, which resurrection do you speak of? The first one in which it is said “Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years”.– Rev. 20:6
In other words, those who make up the heavenly class (144,000) will never be tested or die the “second death” as they receive immortality at the time of their resurrection.
Anyone surviving Armageddon as well as those in the second “general” earthly resurrection can always be destroyed in the second death. According to JW doctrine if, hypothetically, Napoleon or Hitler came back during the second general resurrection and tried anything before the 1000 year reign ended these two gentlemen would be destroyed in the second death (a non-Adamic forever death) thrown symbolically in the “lake of fire” of eternal destruction.
At least that is what I gleaned after 55 years of this nonsense.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 25, 2016 at 4:18 pm
 
@Big B:
According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 and will conclude at the outbreak of the Great Tribulation; any remaining ones of the 144,000 on earth when the Great Tribulation starts will be taken to heaven – the 144,000 will not be on earth to experience the Great Tribulation.
**Revelation, Its Grand Climax At Hand! p. 103**
“All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914 and his riding forth to start his kingly conquest by cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons.”
So the WT’s heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 occurs in THIS AGE which concludes with the Great Tribulation and Armageddon according to WT theology.
According to Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):
“The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and THEY CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
According to Luke 20:34-36, the resurrection of those who can no longer die takes place in THE AGE TO COME not in THIS AGE.
 According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 takes place in THIS AGE, whereas the earthly resurrection will take place in THE AGE TO COME. There is no heavenly resurrection in THE AGE TO COME according to WT theology. So , since the only resurrection that will take place in THE AGE TO COME according to WT theology will be the earthly resurrection, then it is to the WT’s earthly resurrection that Luke 20:34-36 applies. Such persons who will be resurrected on earth, can no longer die.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 25, 2016 at 4:20 pm
 
@Big B cont’d:
Also, on reading Revelation 20, I note that there are two resurrections as follows:
1. The first:
– is of persons who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands – so they will be on earth during the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (the Great Tribulation).
– these persons came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
– The second death has no power over them – so they are immortal, they cannot die. This is assumed to be the heavenly resurrection.
2. The second:
– is of persons who are described as the rest of the dead who did not come to life until the thousand years were ended (Revelation 20:5).
– is after the thousand years so no resurrection occurs during the millennium.
– of these persons there will be those whose names are not found in the book of life who will consequently experience the second death, so they are not immortal.
The persons of the first resurrection who will be granted immortality, had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands – so they will be on earth during the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (the Great Tribulation). The WT applies the first resurrection of Revelation 20 to the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 but that application is not appropriate since the WT’s 144,000 will not be on earth during the rule of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (Great Tribulation).
It’s also interesting to note that according to Revelation 20:5:
“the rest of the dead did not COME TO. LIFE until the thousand years were ended” – so there is no resurrection during the millennium. The resurrections occur at the beginning and at the end of the millennium yet the WT claims that there will be a progressive resurrection during the millennium of all the persons who died before Armageddon.
The WT resorts to an ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” as meaning something else than resurrection:
 **Revelation It’s Grand Climax is at Hand (1988)**
“By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “COME TO LIFE” in the sense that they will be perfect humans.”
The irony is that this definition of “COMING TO LIFE” contradicts the previous use of the same expression as referring to the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4): “And they CAME TO LIFE and ruled askings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
**Revelation It’s Grand Climax at Hand (1988)**
“Most of them are already very much alive, since they rode with Jesus against the nations at Armageddon. (Revelation 2:26, 27; 19:14) Indeed, Paul indicated that their RESURRECTION commences soon after the beginning of Jesus’ presence in 1914 and that some are RESURRECTED before others. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, their COMING TO LIFE occurs over a period of time as they individually receive the gift of immortal life in the heavens.—2 Thessalonians 1:7; 2 Peter 3:11-14.
The ad hoc interpretation of “COMING TO LIFE” as “attaining perfection” during the thousand years (with no attempt to provide supporting evidence) is a blatant attempt to avoid the plain meaning of these verses.
According to WT theology “COMING TO LIFE” has two different meanings in the same chapter of Revelation – it means “resurrection” in Revelation 20:4 but in the next verse, Revelation 20:5, it means “attaining perfection”.
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 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 25, 2016 at 6:44 pm
 
@Big B cont’d:
Another point I would like to mention:
 Those who are granted the first resurrection of Revelation 20, reign with Christ for 1000 years.
According to WT theology, the heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914. (Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand 1988, pg. 103)
So given that, according to WT theology:
– Christ commenced reigning in 1914
– the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 (the gathering of the 144,000 commenced with the founding of Christianity in 30CE)
BUT assuming that Christ’s 1000-year reign is yet future, then it is clear that the 144,000 will rule with Christ for more than 1000 years.
So the application of the first resurrection of Revelation 20 by the WT to the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 is inappropriate since the WT’s 144,000 reign with Christ for more than 1000 years whereas those granted the first resurrection of Revelation 20 reign with Christ for ONLY 1000 years.

 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:59 pm
 
******I am not endorsing a future Great Tribulation (GT). All references to the GT above are as per WT teachings – as I recall, the WT teaches that the GT is yet future and coincides with the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Vivian says:

 January 22, 2016 at 9:50 pm
 
Don’t forget about the birds. All the birds that would be helping “us” clean up the billions of bodies. How could a parent tell a little girl that? Explains why as a teenager sun bathing I would get nervous if I saw a bird flying around above me a lot, I would squirm and move around so it would know I wasn’t “dead” LOL I know, but freaky teachings like that find all kinds of hiding places in a brain.
Reply
 
 
 Vivian says:

 January 22, 2016 at 9:55 pm
 
And who remembers being in service in a nice neighborhood and your partner (maybe you too?) would announce “I’m gonna live in that house in paradise!” Just disgusting. I’m sorry but what an embarrassing group I grew up in.
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 10:02 pm
 
JWs teach that their god will mass execute all non-JWs at Armageddon despite the fact that this god made a covenant to never again destroy all life by the waters of a flood (Genesis 9:11, 15)
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 22, 2016 at 10:24 pm
 
@ D Charles Pyle
 RE: living together unmarried on Paradise Earth, or each individual will have his/her own house, separate from everybody else.
I suppose the living arrangements will be similar to Bethel for the resurrected who neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels (eunuchs) (Luke 20:34-36) – everyone will have his/her own room with bathroom; the kitchen, dining room, living room and recreation room will be common areas. lol.
Reply
 
 
 Jarred Booth says:

 January 23, 2016 at 1:22 am
 
I have to disagree with a comment in the article. To say 99% of Witnesses would be horrified by an elder saying non-Witnesses who are killed pre-Armageddon are being done a favor, that is not my experience. I think that percentage would be much, much lower. Although I never heard it specifically worded that way, and I’m not sure if I ever heard it from the platform or not, I did hear Witnesses mention many times about non-Witnesses who died and that it was good so they could be resurrected and not die at Armageddon.
I recall a talk I once listened to by the late Daniel Sydlik, who was on the Governing Body. He was talking about his disdain for New York City. He said the solution to NYC was for God to open up the earth and swallow them all. The audience cheered at that. Even though I was thoroughly indoctrinated and Sydlik was my favorite speaker, I found that whole thing to be deeply disturbing. That a GB member would say something like that and that the whole audience would applaud… So to say 99% of Witnesses would be appalled by the kind of talk you mentioned, and that the elder would be removed from the stage and from speaking… I wish that were true, but I don’t think it is.
Reply
 
 Chiafade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 11:07 pm
 
I believe I have that talk on CD. Along with a bunch of others including Losch saying that a blizzard is no excuse for missing meetings because in Austria they would walk in the snow all the time.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:14 pm
 
…& fight crocodiles, & swim across raging rivers, & climb mountains, & cross deserts, fight zombies, slay vampires, wrestle werewolves, etc, etc, etc RFLMAO
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 23, 2016 at 4:00 am
 
Thanks for another interesting article. Armageddon is an amazing subject especially to an ex-Jehovah’s Witness like myself. It was the talk of Armageddon that actually got me intrigued as I had read it in the Bible but my church never talked about it. The Witnesses talked openly about it.
Their attitude though I realise now was wrong. As Witnesses we could not wait for Armageddon just like in these awful artist impressions of it, that their literature was full of. I have since read in Amos 5:18 says :
“Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”
In other words it is not something God finds any delight in and neither should anybody as it is a very sad day to experience according to the Bible. I still believe in Armageddon and that Jesus will return to do God’s will. Some here have lost their faith because of Watchtower’s bad behavior. Don’t forget about bible reading, but not from the New World Translation or the Silver Sword. Get a new Bible and realise there is a world out there that has not been copyrighted by the Watchtower, and restore your faith and learn to love Jesus and His Father again.
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 January 23, 2016 at 8:20 am
 
I am doing my best to keep faith in God… I can’t even say Jehovah any more. I just feel so cheated and lied to by the Borg. I feel my world has been poisoned by them. It makes me sick. an elder contacted me via text the other day asking if they could ‘pop over to encourage me’…. like hell will I let them come. Last time the ‘encouraged’ me, they waited until just before they left and then asked how I could justify going to my df’d son’s wedding. I told him this time I was not in the mood to talk to them. He said ‘ok but we are here when you need us’….
Reply
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 24, 2016 at 9:50 pm
 
Good on you Tara. They’ll go away soon when they find out they are not getting anywhere with you.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Wanderer says:

 January 23, 2016 at 4:06 am
 
I bumped in to an Elder a while ago and we were chatting, he obviously didn’t realise that I had faded years ago. He was telling me about his neighbor and a dispute he was having with him. He said his neighbor was making his life hell, but he was looking forward to Armageddon, he will be looking over his fence and laughing at his neighbor as he is being destroyed!
I started questioning my belief in the JW’s when I started contracting to junior schools. I remember thinking all of these innocent children will be destroyed at Armageddon through no fault of their own, but because their parents had not become JW’s. Then thinking about how many people I met in feild service that would say I have my own religion thank you, that is what I would say to Mormons when they came to my door. These people were doomed to an imminent death, but they were good Christian people leading the best life they could, it just didn’t add up to me.
Reply
 
 
 Terry Statton says:

 January 23, 2016 at 6:16 am
 
What a horrible cult. I was one of the children with my 2 brothers that lived our childhood terrified of thunderstorms, demons and many other cult false teachings. We all got out except our mother who is still, after 60 years a Witness, is waiting on mass destruction of all non JW’s at Armageddon.
Reply
 
 
 noname says:

 January 23, 2016 at 6:57 am
 
This months broadcasting mentioning brother Travis brooks is interesting. I know Travis and i served with in Bethel he is still here serving but will be reassigned soon.Small world.
Reply
 
 
 eyes opened says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:26 am
 
A very well written article. During my awakening I read Jesus words without allowing myself to be influenced by Watchtower teachings. After 40+ years of indoctrination that wasn’t easy. But if I wanted Bible truth I had to stick with just the Bible. I read Matthew 24 with great interest because so many teachings are based on Jesus words to his apostles in that chapter. I decided I could no longer call Jesus a liar. I determined that when he used the word “all” (Matt. 28) he meant all and in Matt. 24 when he said “this” he meant the generation of people that included his disciples. If Matthew 24 was inclusive of the first century Christians, then the logic is that certain events were to unfold within that generations timeframe. This would include the battle of Armageddon. It was for the destruction of the Jewish system of things in harmony with Jesus words “your house is abandoned to you”. Anyone who obeyed Jesus words to get out of the city would be saved. It wasn’t a kill everyone war. People had a choice. But the Watchtower can not teach that because then everyone would know the F&DS was also first century. Now these conclusions would mean Revelation would have been written pre-70. We do not know the actual date of writing. Tradition says between 96-98 C.E. and the Watchtower Society has accepted that tradition of men, which of course is in their best interests to support their teachings. I realize probably not many would share my conclusions but they are offered in support of your writing that Armageddon is not how the Watchtower teaches. There is a scripture that says when there is a turning to Jehovah the veil is removed. In other words you get a clearer understanding of the scriptures. That is the last thing the Watchtower Society wants anyone to do. That’s why they insist that they are the only channel for spiritual food.
Looking forward to more of your articles.
Regards
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 2:20 pm
 
@eyes opened
 Applying the prophecies in Revelation to the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 C.E. clears up a lot of issues with the book. This application is much easier to accept than the idea that the writings vaguely apply some two millennia after they were written.
WS
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:10 pm
 
@eyes opened
Another viewpoint regarding the book of Revelation is that the writer of Revelation was writing from his own experience and perspective – he was writing about the fall of the Roman Empire and that God would re-create a New Jerusalem out of its ruins. The book of Revelation is therefore not considered to be prophetic of mankind’s future.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:12 pm
 
Seehttp://valerietarico.com/2009/07/08/the-book-of-revelation-prophecies-hallucinations-or-history/
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:37 am
 
Well this thread is all over the map, so I’ll throw in my 2 cents.
I don’t have a problem with a wrathful God. Whatever he creates, he can destroy. Killing an entire population is within his authority. I don’t call it “genocide.” If people don’t respect his law and direction, that’s their problem.
I believe the flood happened like the Bible says. How did it cover Mt. Everest? Mt. Everest was not as tall before the flood. The floodwaters, God’s spirit, and resulting rapid tectonic plate shifts made earth’s geography what it is today. Look at a globe. 70% of earth’s surface is covered with oceans. Those ARE the floodwaters that drained off to leave dry land.
So if God killed an entire population in the flood, and he says he will do it again with “fire,” I believe it. I do not question his motives or methods. It’s my individual responsibility to respect his law and avoid his wrath. He is God; he does what he pleases.
Watchtower has been wrong about the date, but that does not mean it won’t happen. The Bible says it will, and I believe it.
Reply
 
 Jarred Booth says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:14 am
 
There is a problem with this belief that there is going to be a sort of second flood, a worldwide annihilation of mankind, whether by fire or by any other means. First, God himself said after the flood: “Never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done.” (Genesis 8:21) Second, if you read the context of 2 Peter 3:5-12, you see Peter was not calling for a worldwide extermination of everyone who did not follow the apostles’ teachings, or even all non-Christians. Chapter 2 talks about false teachers in the congregation who would take advantage of the flock. And after mentioning the flood and destruction of ungodly men, Peter says: “Be on your guard that you may not be led away with them.” (3:17) Even the Watchtower acknowledges that “them” means “false teachers within the Christian congregation.” (w2010 7/15 p 7 par 13) But they fail to take it to its logical conclusion, that 2 Peter 3:5-12 is really just referring to a removal of “the ungodly men” from the Christian congregation. (3:7) There is not going to be any earth-wide destruction of so-called “worldly people.”
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:39 am
 
Though Genesis 8:21 says “just as I have done,” 9:11 explains what that means: never again by a flood.
The only problem I see, is people trying to soothe their fear of destruction, by arguing that it won’t happen. But that’s silly. You’re going to die anyway. It’s only a question of when and how.
Reply
 
 Jarred Booth says:

 January 23, 2016 at 11:26 am
 
Once again, 2 Peter 2:1,2 talks about “false teachers among the people.” Verse 3 mentions their “destruction.” Verses 4-5 compares this destruction of the “false teachers” to the flood of Noah.
 Jude 4 mentions these same ones, “certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men.” Verse 6 compares their judgment to that of the angels in Noah’s day.
 When Jesus talked about the flood in Matthew 24:37-39, and warned “your Lord is coming,” he then went on to explain what that “coming” would entail: Judgment between a faithful slave and an evil slave (slaves of Jesus), an evil slave who ‘beats his fellow slaves’.
The references in the Bible to a “second flood” are specific to those within the Christian congregation who take advantage of or abuse their fellow Christians. They are NOT in reference to some global destruction of all non-Witnesses (or non-Any Other Religion).
 And yes I am going to “die anyway.” We all are someday. I’ve made my peace with that and am living a happy life free of brainwashing and self-righteousness. You should try it sometime.
Reply
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 1:27 pm
 
@simon kestrel
 Whilst it is true that we are all going to die, that does not therefore mean that there is no quantitive difference between, for example dying of old age by natural causes, and being butchered in you prime by a violent criminal or an angry deity.
I submit to you that a man on trial for murder would not do well in his defence if he stated “we are all going to die anyway, so what does it matter that I killed someone.”
Do you agree with that?
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 8:40 pm
 
If you live 20 years or 80 years, either way you end up dead. Sixty years difference is less than a drop in the bucket of eternity.
God is not on trial. His destructive acts are not comparable to human misdeeds. He has the authority to destroy human life. The essence of our disagreement is that people reject that authority, so they deny it exists.
I don’t think either of us can persuade the other, so I hope we can agree to disagree.

 
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:51 pm
 
@ Simon Kestrel
If God were to once again carry out a mass slaughter of mankind at Armageddon then he he is not a man of his word.
 God made an UNCONDITIONAL covenant with Noah that he will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood: Genesis 9:9-17
 (I am not endorsing whether or not the flood was a historical fact, I am just using the information provided by the Bible to make a point).
As the record in Genesis shows no conditions were laid down by god when he made this covenant with Noah, so the covenant was UNCONDITIONAL – that is, God promised to keep this covenant, regardless of what man would subsequently do, regardless of whether man would subsequently continue to sin. It is a covenant not only between God and Noah, but between God and every living creature (Genesis 9:9-10, 16). It is an “everlasting covenant,” between God and Noah, and every generation after him (Genesis 9:12). It is God’s promise that He will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood (Genesis 9:11).
I must admit however, that I haven’t seen any rainbows lately so maybe God has changed his mind.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:12 pm
 
Right, never again by a flood.
But consider King Ahaziah and Elijah, a serious example of failure to respect God and his prophet (2 Kings 1).
Destruction by fire, not water.

 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 24, 2016 at 4:10 pm
 
So mass slaughter by fire is OK but mass slaughter by flood is not………strange god.

 
 
 
 
 eyes opened says:

 January 23, 2016 at 2:22 pm
 
Hi Jarred,
You make excellent points. Peter’s words would certainly fit in with the destruction of Jerusalem. While we learn many things from the Greek scriptures, especially how to live a good and peaceful life, those words were written first to the first century christians and that is where we would see primary fulfilment.
Regards
Reply
 
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 12:40 pm
 
@Simon Kestrel
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter. :)
 Can I ask, you state that a wrathful God can do whatever he wants with human life since he created it.
My question is, why would you want to serve a God like that?
If his creation appears to have a keener sense of justice and empathy than he does, then does that not raise some worrying questions about his nature?
Not attacking you, just genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 1:33 pm
 
I don’t agree that humans “have a keener sense of justice and empathy” than God. Humans kill millions of unborn babies every year. Abortion, murder, war, etc. At some point, God must step in and stop the killing. We can’t stop it ourselves.
As for “serving” God, that’s a human notion. God does not need servants. He does not need ANYTHING from people, not even love.
Loving God is the greatest commandment, and Jesus said love in this context means to obey. However, God does not need that from us either. He does not need our worship, he does not need our obedience, he does not need our love.
God tells us to obey for OUR benefit, not his.
So obeying God is for my own prosperity and self interest. I don’t feel like a servant at all.
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 1:39 pm
 
But can you not see the flaw in your logic? “Because some people kill other people, God must therefore kill almost everyone, including the vast majority of human beings who have never killed anyone?”
Does that not strike you as a rather sloppy solution? To go back to my example, how does killing a MSF medic who dedicated their life to helping their fellow man make the world a better place?
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 2:05 pm
 
You call it a sloppy solution but you (humans) can’t solve the problem. With thousands of years to find a solution, human failure is complete.
Sparing millions of humans who have never murdered assumes that murder is the only capital crime. But God decides who lives and who dies. He gives life, and he can revoke it.
Humans use logic to program computers that let us talk at great distances. But arguing logic with God is futile. Humans do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the timeless nature of God. We’re like dogs watching a mathematics professor write calculus on the blackboard. We can bark all we want, but we’ll never understand the calculus of God. We simply don’t have the brainpower for it.
I accept these limitations and defer the weighty decisions of life and death to God.

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 4:27 pm
 
Simon,
 History has shown us that humans are improving, not getting worse. Would you prefer to live back in the dark ages? If human nature is getting worse, those times must have been better, but I am sure you would agree such a conclusion is not correct. Did you know that statistically there are less murders than 100 years ago? Humans are capable of making this improvement because they are created in “God’s image” and his creation is “very good.” It is faulty theology that says humanity is bad and getting worse.
I agree with your statement that humans lack the intellectual capacity to understand God. Thus this idea of God planning to destroy 99% of all humankind indiscriminately is a product of faulty human reasoning.
WS

 
 
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 2:26 pm
 
Simon,
Unfortunately, the facts of geology & archaeology do not support a global deluge having occurred in the last 10,000 years. Either the timing of the event in scripture is way off (doubtful) or the event was not global, but rather isolated to a specific area (more likely). Think about it, if everyone at the time lived around the area of the Middle East, why was a global deluge even necessary?
WS
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 5:01 pm
 
Mathematics is the only pure science. Studies in other fields are subject to interpretation, dispute, and error. Geological “evidence” against a global flood of 4,000 years ago is mere extrapolation, and unverifiable.
Either you believe or you don’t. It’s a question of whom to trust. To me, God is more real than any geologist. They will all die. God will live forever.
I dismiss their “science” as error. Time will reveal the truth, and eternity favors my view.
Scientists are not unanimous in denial of the Bible. John Lennox is a pure scientist who believes. He’s a great thinker and lecturer. William Dembski’s lectures on information theory and materialism are good too.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:50 pm
 
Simon,
“Mathematics is the only pure science.”
Interesting statement. There is a question among scientists and mathematicians: is math a human invention or a discovery. A great book on the topic that I can recommend: “Is God a Mathematician?” By Mario Livio.
As a deist, I believe that God exists and we each can get to know the Creator by studying the creation. Holy books, like the Bible, are mankind’s attempts to understand the Creator, but they are just that: human reasoning. I think there are some very great and profound reasonings in the Bible as well as some very poor ones (Moses command to slaughter Canaanite children comes to mind).
One scripture that I think is quite profound is Acts 17:27 “He did this so they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.” The point being that the Creator is accessible to all and wants to be found. The sciences of geology, archeology, cosmology, etc. bring us closer to knowing God. Because what they reveal is at odds with a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible does not make them false. When you look at many of the tales in scripture for the allegorical value, it does not matter if they do not agree with hard science.
You say you dismiss the work of a single geologist. But there are thousands of scientists that have been building a body of knowledge for the past 4 centuries and when you add up the sum total of their work you have tens of thousands of years of experience. Have errors been made along the way? Sure. But the beauty of science is that it is self correcting. Religion is not self correcting. It is self insistent: there is no room for improvement or discovery. Accept it or else. Religion has not cured any diseases or helped to produce more food or to provide clean water. It has been the cause of many wars and many injurious actions towards our fellow humans. This is why I reject religion. But I do not reject spirituality nor do I reject God.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 GEM says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:08 am
 
@ Covert Fade: Love the reasoning, Love the style but could you change your Profile picture…can’t quite make out what it is…but it gives me the creeps. Is it a Gargol?
How about using a picture of an awakening Man with outstretched arms and a big, big, smile?
Great delivery. Slaughter, isn’t pretty….I find it hard to accept a god that would approve of mass slaughter of otherwise innocent people, especially when whole populations have yet to be reached with the “Truth”.
Further, has anybody ever considered that Armageddon may just be directed to 1/3 of the System…that System that has received “a witness”… the realm controlled by Christendom? Why would a loving god slaughter those who have not even had the opportunity to hear?….
As
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 12:31 pm
 
Hi there :)
My profile pic is actually a robotic cat, smirking at the camera. I’ve never thought of it as creepy before, but enough people find it off-putting, I’ll see if I can find another avatar. Can be tricky sometimes to find a pic that expresses your personality online. A sarcastic smirking cat is actually quite consistent with my personality, but like I said, it it’s freaking enough people out I might consider a change :)
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 23, 2016 at 8:24 pm
 
I think it’s fine. Hasn’t given me any nightmares. I’m a big boy. 😉
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 23, 2016 at 8:26 pm
 
I thought it was something like a black panther, & that’s pretty cool!
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 23, 2016 at 8:33 pm
 
PS No offence to anyone, but I would think, after years of oppression & psychological abuse in WT, as well as nightmare scenarios like Armageddon with associated imagery as seen above, folks would be able to handle a slightly-scary profile pic smaller than a postage stamp. lol Seriously, c’mon folks, there are bigger issues at stake.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 ruthlee says:

 January 23, 2016 at 12:30 pm
 
When I was a tender youth my mum took me to London to visit her friend. We were travelling on the underground railway in rush hour and I had a panic attack. I was around 10 and I thought all these people are going to die and I felt terrified and very tearful. In that crowd a brother came along and was whistling a kingdom tune and I didn’t speak to him because he was gone in the crowd. That was a faith defining moment as a naïve child that is still with me. Now i’m old and disillusioned I conclude it was a coincidence and a chance encounter. I do not think god will kill all those I saw in the subway all those years ago because they will probably be dead with old age as all this time has passed. So according to jw speak they have their ticket and will be resurrected soon, soon ,soon and I did not need to panic. hummm what about the 8 billion today , well that’s a thorny problem. ruthlee
Reply
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 2:15 pm
 
@Simon Kestrel
Your ultimate position appears to be “when it comes to God’s will there is no point using logic, reason or compassion. We must just blindly do whatever the Watchtower says the Bible says we should do.” Have I understood you correctly?
Therefore, can I ask, if God appeared before you, and commanded you to kill every newborn baby within six miles of you, would you do it?
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 2:38 pm
 
Not exactly. I no longer follow the Watchtower. I do trust the Bible, God, and Christ though.
God may kill newborns at Armageddon, but I doubt he will ask for my help. Hypothetical dilemmas do not trouble me.
As I said, I was just throwing in my 2 cents. It was not meant to offend. You did a fine job with your article, I just wanted to express a different view.
Reply
 
 
 

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The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
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Posted on January 22, 2016

The worldview of Jehovah's Witnesses revolves around Armageddon
The worldview of Jehovah’s Witnesses revolves around Armageddon

When I was a Jehovah’s Witness, I didn’t like to talk about Armageddon.
Don’t get me wrong, I loved to talk about the paradise. Who wouldn’t? I’d cheerfully tell anyone who asked, be they householder, interested person at the meetings, or curious workmate, about the awesome future that awaited. I’d talk about a world free from war, free from crime, full of incredible adventures that a peaceful, united human race would enjoy forever.
But when people asked how God would achieve this, I found myself getting a little vague and fuzzy about the details.
I mean, how do you say: “Well, first God needs to kill you and everyone you love, unless of course you fancy converting?” without making yourself look like a bit of a extremist loon?
I remember sitting in District Conventions, when the speaker would be holding forth with sound and fury on the subject of how God’s wrath would soon consume all those who failed to serve him. I would glance guiltily across at any “worldly” people who happened to be in the stadium, like the security guys, or the people working the concession stands. I’d feel like walking over to them and saying; “Don’t worry, he’s not talking about you, or your family or friends,” but I couldn’t, because he was.
I knew very well that unless they became Jehovah’s Witnesses, they were dead men and women walking.
Armageddon: An act of justice?
Let’s take a second to actually analyse the Watchtower’s teachings on Armageddon. It is presented by Watchtower as the war that Jehovah God will soon use to remove all of the Earth’s governments, and most of the Earth’s population, and install his own brand of rulership on the planet. He will fight it with his spiritual armies of angels, with his son Jesus leading the charge. He will have no need of human help, so Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be involved in any actual combat. Their role will simply be to stand and watch.
Who will survive? Well it depends who you ask. Or more correctly, it depends on who you are when you ask.
If you are a member of the public asking this question, you’ll probably get the answer: “That’s for God to decide. Only Jehovah can read a person’s heart. We don’t know who will survive and who won’t.” Take for example the FAQ on this subject from Watchtower’s official website JW. org. (Bold is mine.)

Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.
Well, that sounds okay on the surface. Maybe I can just live a good life, treat my neighbour well, and Jesus will read my heart, see that I’m basically a loving, kind man and I’ll be spared?
No. Because this isn’t the answer Watchtower gives behind the scenes to an indoctrinated Jehovah’s Witness. Here are some examples of what Watchtower has said about Armageddon in other publications, with even more examples available at jwfacts.com (Bold has been added)

“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19
“During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known Gods righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.”  Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?”
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
So it’s pretty definitive. While Watchtower tries to spin the doctrine to the general public that “all sorts of people might in theory survive Armageddon” the actual message in-house is that unless you are a practicing Jehovah’s Witness, you are toast.
Contemplate that for a while. Watchtower’s doctrine is that everyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness will be killed, no matter how loving, how kind, how selfless they are in other areas of their life. They could have spent their life in Medicine Sans Frontiers, selflessly dedicating themselves to providing medical care to fellow human beings in some of the worst places on Earth, whereas a Jehovah’s Witness may have simply worked as an IT engineer in a comfortable office, and never really helped anyone much.
But come Armageddon, it would be the Jehovah’s Witness who would survive, and the selfless medic who would die screaming.
To summarise, the non-Witness population of the planet would undergo a systematic slaughter of every single man woman and child. There is a name for the systematic killing of a civilian population solely for the purpose of extermination.
Genocide.
The ethics of genocide
You don’t have to use your imagination to see what Armageddon would look like. Human history is replete with examples of genocide. To glimpse the future that a “loving” God will being, look to the concentration camps of World War II. Look to the mass graves and “ethnic cleansing” in the Balkans, or the hacking to death of vast scores of Tutsi and moderate Hutu by the Hutu majority in Rwanda.
Or look on the news reports right now at the work of ISIS in the Middle East, who are currently engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Yazidi people.
Now, it goes without saying that 99% of Jehovah’s Witness are no doubt just as horrified as everyone else when they see the awful genocide that the so-called Islamic State are currently committing against the Yazidi population. The wholesale slaughter of men women and children, often in gruesome and sadistic ways, is an appalling crime that has brought universal condemnation from the international community and revulsion from anyone with even a halfway decent moral code.
Yet these men, women and children being slaughtered at the hands of ISIS, are the very same men, women and children who would be slaughtered at the hands of Jehovah if he brought Armageddon today, a slaughter the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be obligated to support and celebrate as a righteous act.
And it’s not like the slaughter would be any more humane; Watchtower does not teach that Jehovah will painlessly disintegrate his victims or cause them to simply fall asleep in quick, merciful death as would arguably be within his power to enact. No, Watchtower portrays this event as a violent holocaust, with people being crushed, burned and mutilated in a manner of which the sadists of ISIS would surely approve.
To prove this point, let’s take a look at some Watchower artwork depicting the event.
armageddon-1982-enjoy-life-p28
Ageddon Feature Image
WatchtowerArmageddon2003learnfromgreatteacher_p243
Watchtower Armageddon 1988revelation
WatchtowerArmageddon1997WT0901
This is just a small sample of art produced by Watchtower to demonstrate what they believe Armageddon will look like. A whirlwind of terror and grisly violent death unleashed against a powerless and unsuspecting civilian population.
If you’re still in any doubt, listen to Governing Body Member Tony Morris, one of Watchtower’s seven leading men, hold forth on how those God kills will burn and split open like hotdogs.
Even worse, according to Watchtower theology, those who die before Armageddon will almost certainly be resurrected into God’s New World in order to have a second chance, whereas those who die at his hands at Armageddon are eternally destroyed. Remember that Watchtower FAQ quoted earlier in the article?

Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Why do I say “even worse?” Because this teaching creates an horrific moral loophole. If Witnesses take their theology to its logical conclusion, they should be celebrating the deaths of “worldly” people at the hands of killers like ISIS, for those “worldly” people at least have a chance of resurrection in the new world, whereas if they escape the ISIS sadists but then die at Armageddon, they are doomed forever.
Again, to stress, 99% of Witnesses would be horrified if one of their number suggested this.
An elder who gave a talk from a Kingdom Hall platform stating that Christians should rejoice in the death of worldly people, and that groups like ISIS were doing the people they killed a favour by sending them en-mass to Paradise via the loophole of pre-armageddon death, would appall his audience, probably have his microphone muted, be hauled off the platform and into a back-room, be given a savage dressing down by the rest of the elders, and would probably not allowed to give another talk for a very long time.
Yet this theoretical Elder’s logic, whilst horrifying and unacceptable to most Witnesses, is a correct reading of the logical end consequence of Watchtower doctrine.
Genocide is always genocide
The more I came to realise what the Armageddon doctrine actually entailed, the more I came to fear there might be something horribly wrong with the Organisation I was supporting and the doctrine it promoted. Were such a violent act to be committed by a human organisation or movement, I would be revolted, and condemn it for the vile act of barbarism it was.
So how did it suddenly become acceptable if the very same people were slaughtered by a deity who claimed to be the very essence of love? Billions of defenceless men, women and children, all killed horribly because they were not convinced that a slightly obscure and insignificant religion that occasionally knocked on their door, or stood silently next to carts full of wafer-thin magazines, was actually the One True Faith?
Like many before me, I increasingly found my conscience could not support the teachings Watchtower promoted.
Like many before me, I came to properly research my beliefs, and thus realised that the teachings Watchtower promoted were often not even in harmony with the Bible.
And in time, like many before me, I left the Watchtower religion. In a way, Armageddon set me free.
Just not quite in the way Watchtower had intended.
 
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481 Responses to The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon

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 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 5:37 pm
 
@Winston
“this idea of God planning to destroy 99% of all humankind indiscriminately is a product of faulty human reasoning”
It’s in my Bible. I don’t know the verse off the top of my head but I’ve read the whole thing, I know it’s there. Do you want me to look it up? Might be pointless though, if you’re not inclined to believe.
“statistically there are less murders than 100 years ago”
Statistically 100 years of human history is a small sample. It might get worse again. A whole lot worse.
“History has shown us that humans are improving, not getting worse. Would you prefer to live back in the dark ages?”
Medical advances have improved quality of life for many people. But 70 to 80 years, on average, like the Bible says, is still all we get. Despite our best human efforts, we will never conquer old age and death. Geneticists will produce Frankenstein long before unlocking the secrets of life God keeps locked away.
As for living in the dark ages, no, I would prefer to live in a world without death from disease or old age. Humans will never achieve that on their own. So I pray for God’s kingdom to come, though not knowing who can survive it’s arrival. As Meredith said, things will get ugly. But whether I live or die, let it come.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 23, 2016 at 11:13 pm
 
Simon,
 I was raised a JW and served as an MS and then an elder for over a decade. As such, I read the bible perhaps a dozen times. It is a real stretch to try to use the scriptures to justify the genocide of 99% of the population. The closest you can get is that “broad and spacious is the road leading to destruction and many are the ones finding it.”
100 years IS a short period. I used that period as an example because it is the most relevant. We have been getting less and less violent for thousands of years. Think about it: today it is just about unheard of to nail criminals to a post and let them slowly die an agonizing death. 2000 years ago it was common practice. A great book on this subject is The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steve Pinker.
As for life expectancy, the average was 44 in 1900. Today it’s in the mid 70’s. And where I live it is not uncommon for folks to see 90 more often than not. To date geneticists have not created a Frankenstein-type monster. Really, to make such a suggestion is cynical and there is no factual basis for such an assertion.
I believe God gave us the tools to better ourselves and to improve the quality of life for our fellow humans. So what I’ll pray for is this: to use my talents and skills to make life better for those around me.
WS
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:08 am
 
“To date geneticists have not created a Frankenstein-type monster”.
— Ever heard of Donald Trump? LOL
 Sorry Donnie-baby. Just had to say it.
 (After he purchases the Presidency, I’m screwed. Oh well, totally worth it!)
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 5:49 pm
 
Hi everyone.
Just a quick note.
As you are aware, the comments section guidelines have a number of rules, one of which is:
RELIGIOUS NEUTRALITY – Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature or may be construed as imposing one person’s religious beliefs (or lack thereof) over those of another.
Now, given the nature of the article, I’m prepared to be reasonable about giving a certain amount of slack here, as it’s hard to discuss the issue without straying into this guideline as people define and debate what they believe on the matter.
And I’m happy to say that so far, everyone has been reasonable in their conduct, there is pointed debate going on, but it’s not getting nasty and I don’t feel it is overly evangelical.
So basically, good work everyone, keep it up, stay civil, and then I’m sure there will be no need for me to swing any hammers of moderation.
Reply
 
 james says:

 January 25, 2016 at 1:33 am
 
“Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature”,,,well, what do you want us to do? Some of us are still believers in God and the Holy Bible. When I comment I do not evangelize, but, say, that your post is about homosexuality, obviuosly I may comment by saying that the Bible, hence God forbisds it. This is a statement, I am not imposing fellow forum writers to stop practicing homosexuality nor I try to say they are bad people. I believe you of the forum are going over the top on this religious neutrality. Considering all of us un here were and still some are believers and know what it means to impose an opinion. So, in brief, I am not going to ask you ti have a Bubkle study with me, becasue if I did it would be evangelising. Chill out and accept reality: there are those who no longer believe and those who do and comment with statements not intended to impose opinions, but stating facts. By the way, nice article.
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:43 am
 
Hi James.
 There is a difference between discussing the issues raised in an article, which may indeed require debates over theology and scripture, and what is considered evangelism, which is attempting to “preach” rather than discuss. Granted sometimes it can be a fine line.
As I said in my previous comment, I’m prepared to allow some leeway here. If I feel a discussion is being held in a civil manner, and making good progress, I’m happy to let it continue. But if the tone slips too far, or it transitions from civil debate to shouting match or a Sunday sermon, I will step in. So far I feel the discussion in the thread has been of the former and not the latter. Let’s keep it that way :)
Reply
 
 James Broughton says:

 January 25, 2016 at 3:01 am
 
Covert Fade. Thanks for clearing up that one which has been a stumbling block to me too.
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 1:55 pm
 
Sorry, I’m not making fun of u james, we all hit the wrong keys sometimes, maybe in a rush, & this forum is not a spelling or grammar class, but “Bubkle study” just cracked me up. Honestly, if anyone ever offered me a Bubkle study, I would probably turn it down. lol
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Big B says:

 January 23, 2016 at 6:05 pm
 
Great article Covert Fade;
My own mother-in-law felt relief that her husband of over 40 years passed away a year ago. Why? Because she felt that he now has a resurrection hope and will definitely not die at Armageddon. Twisted logic, but that is the logical conclusion she came up with. Die now and not at Armageddon; why not commit suicide and get a head start? Oh, God would not approve of that, would he? What unmitigated rubbish.
If Armageddon was going to happen wouldn’t the son of God, Jesus Christ, have mentioned it at least once in one of the four gospels during his three and a half year ministry? Why is Armageddon mentioned only once in Revelation, which was a book written in signs and symbols by a 100 year old apostle John? Since all of Revelation, according to John, was given to him in signs and symbols could not this also be a symbolic event as well? After all the whore of Babylon, the scarlet colored wild beast, the 666 beast, the two-horned lamb and the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are all symbolic are they not?
Armageddon is a club to keep the Witnesses in line similar to Christendom’s “hell-fire” doctrine and it’s a crutch as well as it keeps Witnesses from leaving the so called protection of the Watchtower Society in order to better themselves with job opportunities making them a pitiable bunch of mendicant beggars.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:18 pm
 
@Big B
It is debatable that the apostle John is the writer of Revelation – this is in fact why people like Dionysius of Alexandria, a Catholic Bishop; John Calvin, the founder of Presbyterianism; Erasmus a Protestant scholar; Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism rejected/doubted the book of Revelation.
Indeed, for an organization that boasts that they don’t teach hellfire as they claim that it is unscriptural, they certainly scare the hell out of people with their Armageddon and total destruction threat. The WT uses fear and intimidation as a conversion/retention tool – they have simply changed the source of the fear by substituting Armageddon for hellfire. Armageddon is just a mind-controlling tactic used by the WT to trap persons in their cult.
Reply
 
 Big B says:

 January 24, 2016 at 4:25 pm
 
Amen!
Reply
 
 
 Big B says:

 January 24, 2016 at 4:25 pm
 
Amen!
Reply
 
 
 
 Holyconolli says:

 January 25, 2016 at 4:13 am
 
@BigB.Although Jesus did not use the Word Armageddon.Jesus did speak about Worldwide destruction in his Gospels. For example he said , “then there will be great tribulations” such as has never occurred before nor will occur again, all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in mourning
 when thyey see the son of man coming.Also whenhe taught about the end of the system in Matt 24:36-39 whee he said about the flood and compared it to his second coming that they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away so the presence of the son of man will be.
So there are many references in other parts of the bible about massive loss of life when certain events happen and the bible does say it is coming from God. Also there is a scripture that says those Slain by Jehovah in that day will be from one end of the earth to the other, not sure where that is at the moment ( I think one of the Hebrew prohets ).
My point is it is talked about in the bible however know where does it indicate ONLY JW”s or people that all agree on WT teachings will be the survivors. The WT has used Fear and Guilt to keep their sheep in line for nearly their entire existence.
Fear and guilt is not a religion but a source of control.We are open to interrupt those scriptures and time frames as we like.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 25, 2016 at 4:28 pm
 
@ Holy Conolli
It is interesting that god made a covenant to never again destroy all flesh by means of a flood (Genesis 9:9-17) yet Jesus mentions the flood when speaking about worldwide destruction in the Gospels.
Reply
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:44 pm
 
@dee2.
I have thought about that also but to me all it says is he will not destroy the world by a flood.The Bible does say the world will be destroyed by other means than a flood.I have not been a practicing JW for over 20 years now
 but the bible does speak about massive destruction when these things occur. Of course the WT claims they are the only ones who will survive although on their personal website they “pretend” to say that others will be saved ( meaning resurrected ones ) but that is just to make themselves look less extreme to the public. In reality as we have seen in so many of their writings they clearly teach they are the only ones who will be saved.
Reply
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:51 am
 
@Holyconolli
 Jeremiah 25:33 “Those slain by the Lord on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like manure on the surface of the ground.”
That scripture is from Jerimiah and is about the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. The JWs like to apply it to Armageddon due to its graphic language (I used to give a public talk where I did this based on the Watchtower provided outline).
But I will concede the point that most Christian religions (and many non-Christian ones) have this concept of a “day of reckoning” with the Almighty.
WS
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:11 pm
 
Jer 25:33 was taken out of context by the WT – it wasn’t talking about Armageddon.
“……They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like manure on the surface of the ground.”
What a nightmare that will be for the JW Armageddon survivors to have to watch non-JW corpses rot and be mauled by beasts since the corpses won’t be buried according to this scripture. What a stench. Once rotted, the corpses’ skeletal remains will be lying around on the ground since “they will not be buried”.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:26 pm
 
8 million JWs will be watching the corpses if 7.2 billion non-JWs rot and be mauled by beasts – I wouldn’t have the intestinal fortitude to watch that. Not to mention the public health hazard those rotting corpses will pose.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:09 pm
 
@ Simon Kestral
I agree that God can do whatever He wants, and doesn’t owe any of us a Goddamned thing. Atheism doesn’t appeal to me, because it’s at least as difficult to prove God does NOT exist, as it is to prove He DOES exist. lol & it certainly would be awesome if He brought on a truly selective Armageddon that only wiped out the A**holes of the world (no pun intended). But I haven’t seen any concrete evidence that the Bible really is from God, that Jesus, if he existed, was God’s ‘son’ (woeful lack of evidence there!), or that the Har-Magedon of Revelation is anything other than symbolic. I’m not telling u what to believe. But if the Bible is from God, why not the Qu’ran, or the Torah? Betting on a particular “holy book” seems to me like playing roulette. Unless God has Multiple Personality Disorder. 😉
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:43 pm
 
How do you know you’re not one of the A**holes of the world?
lol (sorry, I couldn’t resist)
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 23, 2016 at 9:58 pm
 
@ Simon Kestrel
 I am one of the A**holes of the world who would like to make the following point:
If God were to once again carry out a mass slaughter of mankind at Armageddon then he he is not a man of his word.
 God made an UNCONDITIONAL covenant with Noah that he will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood: Genesis 9:9-17
 (I am not endorsing whether or not the flood was a historical fact, I am just using the information provided by the Bible to make a point).
As the record in Genesis shows no conditions were laid down by god when he made this covenant with Noah, so the covenant was UNCONDITIONAL – that is, God promised to keep this covenant, regardless of what man would subsequently do, regardless of whether man would subsequently continue to sin. It is a covenant not only between God and Noah, but between God and every living creature (Genesis 9:9-10, 16). It is an “everlasting covenant,” between God and Noah, and every generation after him (Genesis 9:12). It is God’s promise that He will never again destroy the earth by means of a flood (Genesis 9:11).
I must admit however, that I haven’t seen any rainbows lately so maybe God has changed his mind.
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:10 pm
 
P.S. I understand your predicament – an Ad hominem attack is always easier than facing the problem head on and answering the question at stake. People do this when they are cornered and the fear of being proved wrong starts to well up inside them, so they will lose control and respond to others on a personal level. People get confused with facts, as it unsettles them and creates extreme cognitive dissonance. This cognitive dissonance then needs to be settled. Most people end up using confirmation bias to reaffirm their original view, studying the scriptures using a method called eisegesis. We hold onto our cherished beliefs for dear life, because the thought that we might have been wrong can be too much to bear.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:22 pm
 
Relax, Dee. It was a joke. Don’t you see the lol? He walked right into that one. Hilarious.
As for the flood, I replied to your duplicate earlier post, back on the page of older comments.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 24, 2016 at 8:37 pm
 
Gotcha……..mass slaughter by means of a flood is NOT OK but mass slaughter by means of fire is OK……..strange god.

 
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:44 pm
 
“an Ad hominem attack is always easier than facing the problem head on and answering the question at stake”
As you perhaps know, not all questions are sincere. Jesus didn’t answer every question asked of him either.
As for eisegesis, I don’t study the scriptures that way. Are you sure you don’t?
Reply
 
 Chiafade says:

 January 23, 2016 at 11:42 pm
 
If I may I’m going to interject due to being inspired by your recent statement “not all questions are sincere” “Jesus didn’t respond to all questions”.
These words were used verbatim by a couple of elders who confronted me due to a letter I wrote to the branch office. My questions were sincere and the elders were not in a position to answer them. So I presented them to those who are in a better position to do so. The response I got was ” we are not going to answer your questions “. Of course the response was sent to the elders and they transmitted it to me. To which they went on to repeat your line quoted above.
The point that you make is moot. According to the Bible Jesus could read the heart and therefore could determine whether a question was insincere. Or are you saying that you can do this as well?
I’m not arguing just presenting a different point of view just in case someone happens to read your comment and take it as gospel.
(Just in case you’re offended I’ll add an lol for you, LOL!)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 23, 2016 at 10:59 pm
 
To the moderator,
It appears my attempt at humor has inflamed at least one respondent, so I apologize and retire from this thread.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 23, 2016 at 11:58 pm
 
With all respect to dee2, Simon’s comment didn’t bother me. It WAS a joke, & a good one. Humor is humor.
 By the way, it was also a legitimate question!
 For a hilarious take on it, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=louis+ck+how+do+you+know+if+you%27re+an+asshole%3F
Reply
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 24, 2016 at 3:53 am
 
@Simon Kestrel. For the record, I don’t feel your comments so far have breeched the guidelines here, especially given the extra leeway I am allowing for this specific thread. If you choose to retire from the thread that is of course your choice, but I am happy for you to continue engaging in the discussion at this point. :)
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:51 am
 
Thanks CF.
As for the debate, it’s me against everybody else, and that’s no fun. I’ve had my say, so I’m done with that.
Two people, I see, have asked compelling sidebar questions, so I’ll respond to those, and move along.
But at lkeast
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:53 am
 
But at lkeast
? dunno where that came from, please ignore
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:34 am
 
U’re not quite as alone as u think. I, as well as many non-JW’s I’ve talked to, seem to believe that there is ‘something’ on the horizon. The JW’s are certainly not unique in their belief that this system (or “shytstem”, if u prefer – a term I learned from a ‘worldly’ guy) is screwed up, FUBAR. There may be many more folks than we realize who believe the “end” really is coming. Perhaps that accounts for the “eat, drink, & be merry” attitude so prevalent today. People put themselves into so much debt just going out & drinking, eating, clubbing, partying, whatever, like there’s literally no tomorrow. Like, I’ll never have to pay it off, so who cares? If it happens, when & how, or even by whom, is obviously open to debate. I’m not trying to be a Doomsday preacher or anything. Personally, I don’t believe in a Biblical Armageddon. But History repeats itself. Empires rise & fall. Every empire has had the arrogance to believe it will last forever. Reminds me of the story of the Babylonians leaving the gates open as they partied. The Persians strolled right in. lol Heraclitus said The only thing that is constant is change. So who knows?
 PS If anyone thinks I’m whistling in the wind, check out TYT (The Young Turks on YouTube) re: Police Departments acquiring Military Surplus hardware. Even the Government is preparing for SOMETHING. Not trying to scare anyone, but To be forewarned is to have four arms. Something like that.

 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:02 pm
 
@a4
It has been said that history is cyclical not linear so only time will tell – I imagine if there is going to be any Armageddon it will be man’s doing. I’ve heard it said that war is a necessary evil as it serves as a population control measure given the earth’s finite capacity – who knows, maybe that is in fact the way the script is supposed to go.

 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:25 pm
 
There are certainly things that are beyond our (arrogant) control.

 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:36 pm
 
…..arrogant……indeed, what does man really know? Man has by means of his various religions and holy books, attempted to explain what **he believes** this life should be and how this life should go. It seems to me however, that there are still many unknowns which man may never gain the knowledge about, and there are other explanations that are possible, and there certainly are things that are beyond man’s control.

 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:04 pm
 
ditto

 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 9:42 pm
 
@Simon,
 Sorry it felt like we were ganging up on you. I think you offer an interesting perspective. Of course on this site, any point raised is up for debate and that’s good for everyone. As Watchtower slaves we were all told that there was only one truth. Thus we rail against any speech that seems to echo that sentiment. There is always another point of view and while we may not agree with it, it is beneficial for us to hear it. It helps us to learn and grow and to analyze our own position. Many of us have stagnated in personal growth because of the limited view the JW religion imposed on us. So here on this site, what I have observed, is that we tend to want to look at every angle.
When it comes to belief it’s really about choice. You cannot prove beyond any reasonable doubt that God exists, nor can anyone else prove that he doesn’t exist. It comes down to what you choose to believe and showing respect when others make that same choice even in the opposite direction.
I hope you will not give up on the site and will continue to post. As I said before, your perspective, even when it feels like it’s a minority opinion, adds value.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Caroline says:

 January 24, 2016 at 3:45 am
 
@Simon Kestral.
You say that Jehovah God is real to you and you believe what it says in the Bible about killing 99% of the population on the earth at Armageddon.
I believed that for about 50 years too and when I stopped going to meetings about a year and half ago, I was worried that “what if the Society and the Bible is right about Armageddon, will I be destroyed along with the rest of the world if I stopped going to the meetings?”
Now I don’t worry any more because I did a lot of research about the Bible books and how we got them. The book of Revelation took about 200 years before it was accepted into the Bible Canon and that was with a lot of debate. Jesus never said anything about Armageddon, as was mentioned in earlier comments and Paul never spoke of it either and neither did the Hebrew scriptures.
When we were so indoctrinated with that idea for so many years, we we always afraid of it but every time something bad would happen in the world or a loved one was suffering for some reason or a loved one died, we’d always say “we need the new world”.
For years the Society would say we need the “new” order but then a few years ago, we weren’t supposed to say new “order” but new “world” I supposed because it sounded too much like the illuminati or whatever.
But I am not afraid anymore. When I researched the book of Revelation I also found out about the history of the rest of the Bible and so now I have hard time even believing in a God anymore unless somebody can demonstrate any evidence to me that he even exists.
I picture no earth or no planets or no solar systems or anything. God is supposed to be invisible. So, the invisible God comes along and “creates” all that stuff and puts it all in motion and propels it out into space and all the universes come into existence and everything on the earth came out of nothing?
So, there was an invisible God who “created” all that stuff out of nothing at all. I can’t picture it. If you can picture that and can explain it to me, I will believe.
I used to believe in that invisible God and I prayed with all my heart thinking he was listening to me and when good things happened to me, I thought he was answering my prayers. Now I look at prayers and Armageddon as selfish.
I was supposed to think God for my food and my life etc. and when it came to asking anything from him, it was supposed to be “according” to His will. I feel now that when I was praying to Jehovah God, it was all in my imagination.
If God is real to you, can you explain Him to us so He is real to us too? Thanks
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 7:01 am
 
Caroline,
 I know your comment was directed at Simon, but I want make mention of this fact: Based on our JW backgrounds most of us tend to anthropomorphize the Creator. Thus many of the commenters refer to he or she (mostly he) when discussing the Creator. I follow suit at times because I realize that this is common practice for most folks.
However when I discuss God I am not necessarily discussing a person. When discussing a biblical passage, of course, God is refered to as a person there. But I propose that this only one way of envisioning the Creator.
I think that when you look at complexities of the universe, the amazing things we are learning about its origin, its behavior, and even its potential demise, there is something divine about it. You could think of it as a person, as a force, or even as simply the universe itself, but I think there is something wondrous and purposeful behind it. We are not just some blind chance event. Life exists with purpose. Perhaps there are others out there (in the cosmos) like us or perhaps we are the first of our kind. But we exist and move for a reason. And part of the wonder of the human experience is finding that purpose and reason.
You can call that reason God. You can envision it as a personality. As long as you don’t use it as an excuse to harm and control others, what you do with it is your choice. And it is your choice to simply believe in nothing. But I propose that there is valid reason to believe in something.
WS
Reply
 
 
 Bad Penny says:

 January 27, 2016 at 6:44 am
 
Caroline –
 ‘I feel now that when I was praying to Jehovah God, it was all in my imagination’.
I feel the same way.
 I really did believe that somehow ‘Jehovah’ listened to my prayers; that unexplained feeling, that buzz I used to get conducting Bible studies, the feeling of warmth and peace at night when I opened my heart to him. What was it? Emotion? Hormones?
 Who knows? All I do know now is that ‘Jehovah’ is not the name of ‘the true God’ as we had been lead to believe. It has strong links to the Freemasons, who also use it, and their God is Satanic.
 So does God really exist? I feel sure that there is a wicked spirit in the World which controls peoples lives and which is also at the heart of Watchtower.
 If this exists because of an outside ‘unseen’ force, then I can also believe in an outside ‘unseen’ force that is not evil. This is what I now cling to – that one day ‘a good God’ will again turn his attention to the earth and set matters straight.
 As for Armageddon? I believe man has let his ‘God given imagination’ run riot on this subject. I doubt any of us will be around in a thousand years to see it. The horrific things that MANKIND does to each other is enough for us to worry about, and in the name of his religion!
 If only people would stick to the principles of ‘Imagine’ by John Lennon, the world would be a happier place ….
Reply
 
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 24, 2016 at 3:52 am
 
Sorry, I probably did over step the mark with my Bible comment. A little bit too preachy I suppose. Sometimes I try a little too hard to encourage, but end up sounding pushy and bossy. Will try to watch my comments and resist the urge to tell everybody what to do.
I just feel sometimes that the lost ones who come on this site need some kind of direction. I know I did, but I guess that is not what this site is all about. It is more about enlightenment of Watchtower’s falseness and having the freedom to talk about it. Will watch my tongue in future. But I don’t want my ex fellow brothers and sisters to feel so lost and unloved by God. Because I know that they must be much loved by God. That is why He has helped set up this site. Anyway, that is just how I think.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:30 am
 
Meredith,
 I did not see any issues with your comments. We have all left a controlling cult and have all had to reshape our belief systems. It’s something that is our right as humans and that was wrongly denied us by the JW religion. You write based on your newly developed (or redeveloped) faith and that is your right. We all may believe something different and many who are just awakening do know what they believe. Expressions of faith are helpful to all. It helps us understand that there is still room for faith after leaving the JWs. Atheism is not the only alternative. And for those who, after honest contemplation, choose atheism that’s ok too.
WS
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:33 am
 
Meant to say that many who are just awakening do NOT know what they believe.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:22 am
 
…But they SURE know what NOT to believe!!! lol
Reply
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:18 pm
 
We definitely all know that anonymous4.
Thanks Winston for your remarks. You are right too. There is much more to leaving the Watchtower behind than atheism, although, it crosses most minds I am sure, even fleetingly, in the hopeless confusion of a crisis of conscience.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Christopher says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:29 am
 
Dude I loved this article you nailed it having been a witness for over 25 years I can completly conccur. No witness really wants to come to grips with what the organization really teaches on this subject but you cannot deny it it right there in black and white. And by the way the video clip of Tiny Morris, priceless.
Reply
 
 
 Checker says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:55 am
 
Does anyone know or ever heard of Watchtower suggesting Armageddon to happen not like a mass genocide but instead in the form of “targeted killings” of the wicked POLITICAL, RELIGIOUS and INTELLECTUAL LEADERS of this system of things?
 Like the US-american drone war on al-qaida leaders or the Israeli killing of palestinian or hamas or religious leaders.
 Yet it doesn’t really work, but keeps Israel in power over the masses of palestinian and arab people.
 Is it thinkable of Armageddon as God only killing everyone who dares to OPENLY rebel and stand up against him/his kingdom/his representatives on earth and who tries to TAKE THE LEAD in opposing God’s kingdom?
 While all other worldly, non-JW men, women and children are spared from destruction but must stay silent in subjection to the new JW world rulers? Hence, there is hope to “gain them to the Truth” one by one during the millennium. Or to simply die a natural death by failing to gain perfection.
 Think of the choice Yazidi women and children are facing in our days from the IS terrorists (to convert or to be enslaved but not necessarily slaughtered).
 Think of the Gibeonites (Josua chap. 9)
 Or the treatment of inactive ones in congregations that do not come forward as apostates.
 Anyone ever heard of this?
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 7:10 am
 
@Checker
 Russell originally taught something along these lines. It was only during the time of Rutherford that Armageddon became the destruction of all non-JWs. Russell taught that only the governments and institutions would be removed. Most people would be spared. And the rulers of the kingdom would lead them to the pathways of living a happy, fruitful life in harmony with the divine purpose.
WS
Reply
 
 Checker says:

 January 24, 2016 at 7:33 am
 
@WS: Thanks!
Any hints of Watchtower returning to this theology in the course of a general “smoothening” (liberalisation)?
 Or as a possibility to avoid the genocide argument presented in the blog article?
 To avoid being banned as religious extremists.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:01 am
 
Looking at the comments of another commenter, Average Joe, and I hope I don’t misrepresent his intentions (AJ, please forgive me if I take any liberties and feel free to correct), there may be some potential for more moderate views among the JWs. If you look at Average Joe’s comment on this article posted earlier, you will notice that he is still an active JW (an elder I believe) and indicates that he believes and teaches that at Armageddon God will judge each individual based on their heart condition and regardless of their specific religious affiliation. Only the truly evil will be destroyed.
Back when I was still active, I heard other JWs express similar ideas. It definitely does not fit the mainstream JW dogma as taught by the GB, but it shows a general softening on the part of many JWs. The religion is now big enough, in my opinion, to undergo a major schism and perhaps split into 2 versions: one the more strict or orthodox and one more moderate, much like the schism the Catholic Church experienced many centuries ago.
Their shifting to more electronic media is opening the door for their members to be exposed to more mainstream, moderate ideas and I think it will have an impact. It might take another 20 years as the GB is good at maintaining strict control and demonizing any and all dissenters, but something must give with this Organization. Of course, this is only one possible scenario. There are several others to consider.
WS
Reply
 
 Average Joe says:

 January 25, 2016 at 8:27 am
 
@Winston Smith
 No liberties at all; you were spot on, on all accounts!
 It’s something I’ve believed since I was taught as a child and the fact that God could destroy anyone for simply not being a JW has always stumbled me (I used to cry a lot when I thought about it as a kid). However, as an adult that believes we are all created in God’s image, I still feel that that would be a terrible injustice, so surely God would feel like that too.
 The WT study was all about love and unconditional love to boot, well that’s what I commented anyway: if we are to display love towards non-JWs who respond harshly to our message then how much more so to our spiritual brothers and those who no longer want to form a part of our organisation. If we viewed such ones any other way then we would be hypocrites. (There were lots of nods too so there may be hope for some JWs yet!)

 
 
 
 
 Tara says:

 January 24, 2016 at 9:03 am
 
To use a phrase from Geoffrey Jackson, I think ‘It would be presumptuous’ of anyone to say her or she will survive a ‘war’ brought about by ‘any’ god that we believe in.
I pray at night…. now I am totally confused about what to call this God I pray to. I recoil at using ‘Jehovah’ simply because I no longer feel I can trust what the WT has indoctrinated into me. So I generally refer to him as Dear Father’…. this goes back to my days pre witness. As a daughter my Dad never objected to me using a title – that was what he was… I never called him by his name…. so i figure God wouldn’t object either as it is still respectful.
 If there is to be a destruction of peoples then nothing I say or do will alter the fact ‘he’ sees my heart condition and if I am judged unworthy then so be it – fatalistic perhaps but there is sod all I can do about it. At least I don’t assume I will survive because I tow the line at some hall. Of course the WT will say that by following scripture we stand a chance of survival…. ah so then it becomes conditional… I don’t do conditional anymore. I love my God, I try to be a good person but that is not enough for the WT is it…. I can’t live up to the conditions imposed at temple Warwick so I trust in my God…. I don’t know what else I can do.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:42 am
 
That’s really & truly all anyone can do, regardless of belief (or non-belief). It’s the most pragmatic attitude I know. Like I always say, I’ve never met God; I’ve never met anyone who has met God. So it really would be “presumptuous” to impose ideologies on others. Like u said, all we can do is our best.
 PS It’s really crazy for people to (sometimes fanatically) impose their beliefs on others. Not talking about anyone commenting on this site. Just in general. I mean, personally I believe in Live & Let Live. As long as no one f***s with me, what do I care what they believe? “The fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt”. It seems so many people are driven to proselytize, because succeeding in converting another, temporarily quells that nagging doubt. Like, Hey, if I can get enough folks to believe this s**t too, then it MUST be true! Kind of reverse logic.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:50 am
 
…U believe in something because it’s true. U don’t make something true by believing in it.

 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:44 pm
 
@Tara,
 Taking for granted that you intend to pray to the Christian God, titles such as Lord, Father, etc. seem appropriate. As Shakespeare wrote ‘what is in a name…a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.’ I think the important part is that you are praying in recognition of a higher power. If that power is truly all-knowing it should righty know who you direct your prayer to regardless of by what name you call it. Based on a few scriptures about the divine name, some of which are poorly translated in the NWT – Romans 10:13 comes to mind – the JWs have an almost superstitious obsession with their interpretation of the name of God. As people who have broke free from their spell, we should not need feel the same dread that they embody. I think that any confusion may be residual of their indoctrination.
I rarely pray in the manner prescribed by JWs. Prayer for me is more of an awe-inspired appreciation of creation or of humanity that moves me into quiet reflection. During such times I often think of terms such as Creator or Father of Creation.
WS
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:10 pm
 
“JWs have an almost superstitious obsession with their interpretation of the name of God”
While shopping recently, I bumped into a local JW. They said how they missed me at the hall. We make small talk but of course they steered the conversation to WT. I said I could talk to them as a friend, but not about WT. I said I still believe in God and Christ but don’t want to talk about WT.
They said as long as I keep serving Jehovah … I said is that a real name, or did a Catholic monk make it up back in the 1200’s?
That simple question was like the shock of a bomb. They quickly left and I said, talk to you some other time.
The apostate police may be knocking on my door soon …

 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:11 pm
 
Whatever u do, DON’T answer! lol

 
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 January 25, 2016 at 4:51 am
 
@tara. Jesus said in the 6th chapter of Matthew on how to pray and he said ,”OUR FATHER” who Art in Heaven etc, When he hung on the Cross/Stake he Said “Father” for give them , When he said that God cares for all humans he said, Your FATHER in HEaven knows every hair on your head etc. So Tara use the example of Jesus himself and call him Father. It is scriptural and also heartwarming and that is what humans have done for thousands of years.
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 January 25, 2016 at 7:12 am
 
Thanks guys :) As we know, prayer is personal… I’ll continue approaching ‘my God’ in the most humble and respectful way I deem appropriate.

 
 
 Robert67 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 8:02 am
 
Spot on

 
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:05 pm
 
You mentioned Tara that you did not know who to pray to. I am going to throw something into the mix. At Acts 4:11,12 says “He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders , but which became the chief cornerstone. And there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we can be saved.” Of course that is Jesus Christ. Why didn’t they tell us that?
Reply
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:10 pm
 
And Watchtower certainly rejected Him as the cornerstone. That’s for sure. There is so much happening at the moment from what I can see on the internet. Jews and Muslims are receiving dreams about Jesus and are becoming Christians. It is amazing. There definitely is something going on which Watchtower is completely deaf to. Those who are on the watch are talking about Jesus returning soon. So there is a revival going on. Of all things I never thought it would happen but for a fact it is.

 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:52 pm
 
@Meridtih J. Where do you se all the mentioned Jews and Muslims turning to Christ? Personally I don’t see it. Maybe I am missing something? I see most people at least in USA where I live in the SF Bay Area becoming less and less spiritual and more humanistic and Agnostic. No doubt many are turning to Christ and to God all over the World everyday on an individual level but I don’t see any revival or mass conversion going on.If Some Jews and Muslims are having dreams of Christ do you think that is an indication that they are really turning to him? Or is that really how Christ draws people to him? I am just asking not debating here.

 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 26, 2016 at 11:02 pm
 
Holy Connoli, it’s not in the Western world silly, it’s in the Middle East



 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 26, 2016 at 11:06 pm
 
Here is one of the many examples of the Jews. The same thing that is happening in Syria and Iran is also happening in Israel.




 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:45 am
 
Well, these Youtube recordings may have glitches but I think you get the message. You can look things like this up on Youtube too if you want. No secret. I don’t like the way, when you watch Youtube now, as soon as it is over another video appears. Annoying.

 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:16 pm
 
@Meredith:
I was not able to view the videos as there seems to be a problem at my end.
If the conversion of Muslims to Christianity which you mention, has to do with the Syrian refugees, the following articles provide some interesting insights into what is driving this conversion:http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/09/454670739/for-some-muslim-asylum-seekers-in-germany-christianity-beckons
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3225014/How-Muslim-migrants-converting-Christianity-Germany-hundreds-boost-chances-winning-asylum.html
Converting to Christianity will boost the refugees’ asylum claim since they can claim that they will be persecuted if sent back home.

 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:20 pm
 
“The refugees or at least some of them are converting because of bread and butter or survival reasons. They have undertaken and braved an arduous journey fraught with peril and they do not want to and cannot go back. The boats have been burnt; whoever offers them a safe haven and the promise of a better life or even survival, they will for instrumental reasons offer their allegiance to them.”
“Survival issues can, as history demonstrated time and again, trump faith and religion; this appears to be happening again on the shores of Europe.”
http://m.firstpost.com/world/saudi-heart-beats-for-syrian-refugees-at-wrong-time-wrong-place-wrong-reason-wont-stop-conversion-to-christianity-2430702.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/november/is-germanys-refugee-crisis-muslim-mission-field.html#bmb=1

 
 
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:04 am
 
Proof that the JWs are apostates too. The JWs like to label dissenters as apostates but they themselves are apostates too – they have vered from the teachings of the founder of the WTBTS, Charles Taze Russell. No wonder they are now claiming that Charles Taze Russell is not the founder of their religion:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/founder/#?insight%5Bsearch_id%5D=1afedb78-87b5-44fb-a6ca-d55bcdbb9454&insight%5Bsearch_result_index%5D=0 :
“Who Was the Founder of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Read why Charles Taze Russell was not the founder of a new religion.”
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:00 pm
 
…….just in case this apostate comment seems out of place, it is a response to the comment above by WS regarding the more liberal teaching about Armageddon by Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the WTBTS.
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 24, 2016 at 2:24 pm
 
**veered not vered**
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Pow says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:44 am
 
Today, most jehovah’s witnesses know that we use the term “God dishonoring ” to describe the Hell fire doctrine, but really the idea that billions of people would be permanently annilated simply because they didn’t join the watchtower, if they even had an opportunity at that, would seem to be equivalently “dishonoring”. It stands to reason that the org. has just replaced fear of hell with fear of ARMAGETTON.
Reply
 
 Pow says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:53 am
 
It’s kinda like the “we don’t pass the collection plate” , but we put contribution box’s everywhere and then remind everyone constantly to give , give , give..even your ice cream money…but we’re not like wicked old Christidom , who are always talking about money. And we don’t have the unbiblical clergy, laity class, no sir..we have O.s./G.C.
 Class…a duck is still a duck no matter what you call it…
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:51 pm
 
@Pow
 Spot on. True examples of doublespeak. The hypocrisy is clearly evident.
The scriptures they apply to other religions also apply to them:
 Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, and disqualified for any good work.”
WS
Reply
 
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:57 pm
 
@pow. I always thought the same thing when I was an active JW. They don’t pass plates but Big deal they are always asking for money other ways. They claim no clergy but exalt the Elders and GB and Pioneers etc. We are not like the other Churches but then they join the United Nations and then Lie about it when they are caught but “promptly” resign when it is brought out in the Newspapers?
Then they condemn Christendom for hell fire teaching but have their own scare tactic teaching of destruction at Armageddon and fear of being DF’d at any time.They are the same as Christendom but just wear a different hat.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:22 am
 
@Holy Connoli
 I agree except on one point. They are not the “same” as Christendom, they are much worse. They are a controlling cult. And yes there are a few other Christian churches that are just as bad off, but most of the main stream ones just simply teach living a good life, being a good citizen, loving your neighbor, etc.
Oh how I wish I was born Methodist or Lutheran or even Catholic. I have a good friend who is Methodist. They have church meetings and Bible study and seem to enjoy them, but they treat all people with respect and everyone has the freedom to do and think and speak as they please.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:56 am
 
“…if they even had an opportunity at that…”
Exactly, & those that had an “opportunity” would be destroyed because they weren’t interested in the latest Awake!’s article on the Samoan Butterfly. lol
Reply
 
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:00 am
 
@Chiafade
“Jesus could read the heart … are you saying that you can do this as well”
You learn how to read people as you gain experience in life. That’s why older men in the Bible make judgements and decisions.
You can’t succeed in life without acquiring at least some measure of that skill.
Reply
 
 
 Pow says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:27 am
 
Here’s a catch 22 as it relates to this discussion. Back in the early 70’s as 75 drew near, one’s started to question how billions in china, Korea, Russia, Cambodia, ect, could be destroyed without even one opportunity.
 The answer was “community responsibility ” in another word’s since they supported their government they should die….however, overthrowing governments is also seen as a manifestation of the spirit if the world…thus they were on Satan’s side if they supported an over through of the government or they didn’t. Thus they deserved death either way.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:52 am
 
“community responsibility” – what a joke!
 It actually sounds like some kind of Cold War term. An attitude borrowed from the “world”. & now…they ARE a member (NGO) of the most “worldly” organization, the UN.
 Catch-22
 Hypocrisy
 Duplicity
 Doublespeak
 Two-Faced
 Bogus
 Phony
 Fraud
 Fake
…I’ll get Carpal Tunnel Syndrome if I go on
…& THEY criticize people for leading a “double life”!!!
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:54 pm
 
Yep, damned if you do and damned if you don’t, quite literally.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 Bright Lightbulb says:

 January 24, 2016 at 5:50 pm
 
Disgusting rationale!
Reply
 
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:30 am
 
@Caroline
“So, there was an invisible God who “created” all that stuff out of nothing … If you can picture that and can explain it to me, I will believe.”
“If God is real to you, can you explain Him to us so He is real to us too?”
As a child, my parents sent me to church occasionally, but they mostly stayed home. As a young adult, I had little concern one way or the other about God. I was focused on myself and what I could get from life.
But time and experience changed my view. I did not have a sudden epiphany like some people do. Awareness of God was a gradual process for me.
The evidence for God is freely available. I believe the Bible miracles: Red Sea parting, etc. Either you believe those people were real, or you don’t. If you believe they were real, then you decide if they told the truth. I believe they did.
I don’t know how to explain it any better than that.
Reply
 
 Caroline says:

 January 24, 2016 at 4:50 pm
 
@Simon, thank you for the reply. For me to be a believer, I have to have more “evidence” than just a statement that “the evidence for God is freely available” as you said. What is the evidence that you are talking about? As far as I understand, God is invisible, right? You can’t see Him but to believe in Him, we have to believe that he made everything in the universe out of nothing, including all the invisible angels etc. and yet, when you pray to Him, he is always present and can answer your prayers. To truly answer prayers, you would have to be able to ask Him to do something that would be considered a miracle, like “parting the red sea” or raising a dead person from the dead who has been dead for 4 days like Lazarus. Asking him to bless us or thanking him for our food or whatever, to me isn’t really expecting anything out of Him, so, what is the point of praying then if he is really real?
I also believed very strongly in God for many years but now I believe I was just talking to myself with an imaginary God that I had formulated in my own mind. That is why I am not afraid of Armageddon anymore because I don’t believe in the miracles in the Bible, regardless of whether or not those people actually existed or not, which is immaterial.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 24, 2016 at 5:24 pm
 
“What is the evidence that you are talking about? … I don’t believe in the miracles in the Bible, regardless of whether or not those people actually existed or not”
The testimonials of those people, written down in the books of the Bible, is what I’m talking about.
Was Moses an ignorant fool, or did the Red Sea really part, on God’s command? If you prefer the ignorant fool theory, I don’t know how to change your mind.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:01 pm
 
@Simon
 You claim the “evidence” is the testimonials of the people who are quoted in or actually wrote the Bible books. But what about the testimonials of people in the book of Mornon, or the Quran, or the Hindu Vedas? Why are the testimonials of people in the Bible valid evidence, but not those of other ancient writings?
WS
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:22 pm
 
None of the other guys parted the Red Sea. None of the other guys called down fire from heaven. None of the other guys appeared in the transfiguration with Jesus.
The Bible ties it all together. The other holy men and holy books are fakers. As a former elder, you know that. Don’t you?

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:19 am
 
Simon,
“None of the other guys parted the Red Sea”
By what evidence do you know the Red Sea was parted other than the Bible’s claim that it occurred? You accept that as fact based on no other evidence than that the Bible says so. The other proposed holy texts make their own claims about their own miracles having occurred. By what evidence do you show that the Bible record is accurate yet all the other claims are “fakers”?
You accept the claims of the Bible because that’s what you are familiar with. It’s part of your culture. But what about someone born in the middle of India to a devout Hindu family? They would likely accept the Vedas and all their teachings as true because that’s what they know, that’s what’s familiar. Do you see the issue? There is no absolute proof that the Bible is the only true word of God, just as there is no absolute proof the the Vedas are the only true word of God. It’s all subjective and relative, not absolute.
So let’s take this a step further. Suppose there is a person born in the middle of India to a devout Hindu family. When they grow up they are moral, clean, love God, and love their neighbor. But everything they do is according to the Vedas and not the bible because that is all they know. So now it comes time for Armageddon. Will God execute him merely because he happened to be born in the wrong part of the world? Would not that be a wicked perversion of justice? The Bible says: “Indeed, it is true that God does not act wickedly and the Almighty does not pervert justice.” Job 34:12.
WS

 
 
 
 Caroline says:

 January 26, 2016 at 6:12 am
 
Simon, do you know of any evidence that upwards of two million people were living in the area of the Red Sea for forty years at which time, Moses and those Israelites went from Egypt to the “promised land”? I don’t think there is any evidence and there should be lots since it was supposedly such a long period of time and so many people, according to what the Bible says.
My point is that unless those events in the Bible actually happened and there’s evidence of it outside of the Bible, then why be afraid of what it says?
I am not referring to if those people actually lived or not. I am referring to the miracles, if there is any kind of proof that they happened.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Chiafade says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:16 pm
 
“As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we show genuine love in this disunited, violent, wicked world that is under Satan’s control. (1 John 5:19) Surely, love will dominate every activity on earth in the new world after Satan, his demons, and rebellious humans have been removed from the scene. What a blessing it will be when all inhabitants of the earth love God and their neighbor.”
This is an excerpt from their Dec 2015 study edition. It shows that this teaching stills goes strong in JW dogma. When JWs say neighbor they really mean other witnesses. “How wonderful to see them slaugh…We mean removed from the scene.”
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:58 pm
 
Who really is my neighbor? Well apparently Samaritans back in the first century, but any non-JWs living today are just pond scum. And let us not even mention those mentally-diseases apostates!
(Please overlay sarcastic vocal inflections)
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 12:34 pm
 
“Surely, love will dominate every activity on earth in the new world…”
LOL
 Does that include sitting on the loo??
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:02 pm
 
A4
 Well…I suppose after a big meal…I guess you could say that I “love” to………on second thought best not to finish that thought…LOL
WS
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:06 pm
 
And why does it require so much death and destruction in order for love to dominate everything. And is that really the best word to use with Love…DOMINATE???? Wouldn’t be better to say that loves permeates or flows rather than DOMINATE? It seems to have a hidden meaning or Freudian slip there…
WS
Reply
 
 Pow says:

 January 24, 2016 at 1:35 pm
 
As in u r gonna be loved to death….what stronger validation do we need then you do it my way or die…….today, it’s claimed that the org. is not like the medieval Catholic Chruch..but, even they claimed that the.inquisition was an act of love….Yes, better to put to death by the inquisitors and stand a chance at forgiveness then to die in this life as a sinner and go to Hell forever..
 You see it’s all about saving lives…
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 24, 2016 at 5:52 pm
 
On the topic of harmagedon. I watched a show on the history channel about 666 the number of the beast in the book of revelation. In Ephesus a wall was uncovered that explains the rules about an ancient hebrew game called gematria, every letter has a corresponding numeric value. Summing these numbers gives a numeric value to a word or name. Many scholars typically support the numerical interpretation that 666 is the equivalent of the name and title, Nero Caesar (Roman Emperor from 54-68). Nero was called a beast by his enemies. Revelation was written before the destruction of the Temple, with Nero exiling John to Patmos. Revelation was written after Nero committed suicide in AD 68. Revelation was written during the latter part of the reign of the Roman Emperor Domitian, probably in A.D. 95 or 96 Revelation 13 speaks of a future prophetic event, “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8), some have argued that the interpretation of Nero meeting the fulfillment is an impossibility if Revelation was written around 30 years after the death of Nero. However, rumors circulated that Nero had not really died and would return to power.It has also been suggested that the numerical reference to Nero was a code to imply but not directly point out emperor Domitian, whose style of rulership resembled that of Nero and who put the people of Asia (Lydia), whom the Book of Revelation was primarily addressed to at the time, under heavy taxation.The popular Nero Redivivus legend stating that Nero would return to life can also be noted; “After Nero’s suicide in AD 68, there was a widespread belief, especially in the eastern provinces, that he was not dead and somehow would return (Suetonius, LVII; Tacitus, Histories II.8; Dio, LXVI.19.3). Suetonius (XL) relates how court astrologers had predicted Nero’s fall but that he would have power in the east. And, indeed, at least three false claimants did present themselves as Nero redivivus (resurrected).”
Reply
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:45 pm
 
After all the fuss made about 666 and the wild beast, it would be funny if apostle John was just talking about emperor Nero.
Reply
 
 
 Eric Arthur Blair says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:01 pm
 
Actually, the oldest extant fragment containing the number of the beast has it as 616. It would appear that 666 may well be (yet another) scribal error. just goes to show that you can’t get too hung up over the fine details in the bible. One word can change the entire meaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast
Reply
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 24, 2016 at 11:22 pm
 
That’s amazing. It all reminds me of smoke and mirrors. Tonight I watched a show about mechanical devices used in ancient times for fooling people trying to contact the dead. They found an old ancient device that was a crank that unwound a rope that an oracle hung from so the people who were on hallucinogenics and who had no sleep and had fasted for several days would think the oracle being lowered was coming from the spirit world. A text was found explaining someone lowering the oracle let go of the crank. After the oracle bounced the oracle said “the underworld let go abruptly.” I think that’s hilarious. Can you imagine? That sounds like something you would see in a movie.
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 January 25, 2016 at 7:21 am
 
I watched the new X Files last night…. The truth is out there…. I believe in Mulder……
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:17 pm
 
U guys are forgetting the REALLY important number – 668 – The NEIGHBOR of the Beast!!!

 
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 26, 2016 at 12:10 am
 
And he’s way cuter than Scully.

 
 
 
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:19 pm
 
Did you know and it is circulating on the internet that the year 2016 is made up of :
666+666+666+6+6+6
I don’t know what it means but how interesting?
Reply
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 26, 2016 at 12:11 am
 
I love that.
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:13 am
 
Seems like the originator of this equation took some lessons in biblical mathematics from the Watchtower. lol.
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:28 am
 
From studying all the different, crazy biblical numerology used by the Watchtower over the years as well as others, I believe you can manipulate numbers to add up to whatever you want them to.
JWFacts.com has a great list of many of the different end of the world predictions at: http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/apocalyptic-end-of-world-predictions.php
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Twmack says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:15 pm
 
A “Global Flood” that covered the highest mountain,( even if
 that mountain were only one mile high, let alone the 5 mile
 Everest or the 3 mile plus Mt. Ararat, where the Ark is supposed
 to have ended up.)- Is a physical and mathematical impossibility.
The required amount of water suspended as vapour in the
 atmosphere and beyond would extend for 18000 miles.
 Such a mass would blot out the Sun and end all life, as would
 the internal pressure created at the earths surface.
All the logistics, the gathering and care for all the livestock,
 (Was it 2 of each or 7 of each? I suppose it depends who was
 telling the tale.). And did they carry extra animals for the
 carnivores to feed on? Such a tiny crew ! I don’t know of any
 Zoo in the World that could operate with 8 employees?
Everything marks it out as a myth, maybe based on a minor
 event that got better with the telling. But as already suggested,
 logic and facts just bounce off when a belief is fixed in the mind.
 Awkward questions are resolved by invoking God and miracles.
The 2000 year expectation of Armageddon is also in the myth
 category. Even some disciples asked “What’s the delay”
Peter responded with “God is not slow” ( where have I heard
 that before?,) The World will end one day through Entropy,–
Decay, it’s an undeniable fact not a myth.
Our life is a mere blip in cosmic time, like a “Blade of grass”
(Yes he got that right). My life was controlled and constricted
 for almost 30 years by means of a book that is no more than
 folk lore, nationalistic propaganda and forgery. Thank God
 I snapped out of it. ( Ignore the first part of that comment)
 it’s difficult to stop using such expressions. The brainwashing
 starts as children as soon as we become cognisant. Fiction
 stated as bald fact.
A “Global Flood” that covered the highest mountain,( even if
 that mountain were only one mile high, let alone the 5 mile
 Everest or the 3 mile plus Mt. Ararat, where the Ark is supposed
 to have ended up.)- Is a physical and mathematical impossibility.
The required amount of water suspended as vapour in the
 atmosphere and beyond would extend for 18000 miles.
 Such a mass would blot out the Sun and end all life, as would
 the internal pressure created at the earths surface.
All the logistics, the gathering and care for all the livestock,
 (Was it 2 of each or 7 of each? I suppose it depends who was
 telling the tale.). And did they carry extra animals for the
 carnivores to feed on? Such a tiny crew ! I don’t know of any
 Zoo in the World that could operate with 8 employees?
Everything marks it out as a myth, maybe based on a minor
 event that got better with the telling. But as already suggested,
 logic and facts just bounce off when a belief is fixed in the mind.
 Awkward questions are resolved by invoking God and miracles.
The 2000 year expectation of Armageddon is also in the myth
 category. Even some disciples asked “What’s the delay”
Peter responded with “God is not slow” ( where have I heard
 that before?,) The World will end one day through Entropy,–
Decay, it’s an undeniable fact not a myth.
Our life is a mere blip in cosmic time, like a “Blade of grass”
(Yes he got that right). My life was controlled and constricted
 for almost 30 years by means of a book that is no more than
 folk lore, nationalistic propaganda and forgery. Thank God
 I snapped out of it. ( Ignore the first part of that comment)
 it’s difficult to stop using such expressions. The brainwashing
 starts as children as soon as we become cognisant. Fiction
 stated as bald fact.
A “Global Flood” that covered the highest mountain,( even if
 that mountain were only one mile high, let alone the 5 mile
 Everest or the 3 mile plus Mt. Ararat, where the Ark is supposed
 to have ended up.)- Is a physical and mathematical impossibility.
The required amount of water suspended as vapour in the
 atmosphere and beyond would extend for 18000 miles.
 Such a mass would blot out the Sun and end all life, as would
 the internal pressure created at the earths surface.
All the logistics, the gathering and care for all the livestock,
 (Was it 2 of each or 7 of each? I suppose it depends who was
 telling the tale.). And did they carry extra animals for the
 carnivores to feed on? Such a tiny crew ! I don’t know of any
 Zoo in the World that could operate with 8 employees?
Everything marks it out as a myth, maybe based on a minor
 event that got better with the telling. But as already suggested,
 logic and facts just bounce off when a belief is fixed in the mind.
 Awkward questions are resolved by invoking God and miracles.
The 2000 year expectation of Armageddon is also in the myth
 category. Even some disciples asked “What’s the delay”
Peter responded with “God is not slow” ( where have I heard
 that before?,) The World will end one day through Entropy,–
Decay, it’s an undeniable fact not a myth.
Our life is a mere blip in cosmic time, like a “Blade of grass”
(Yes he got that right). My life was controlled and constricted
 for almost 30 years by means of a book that is no more than
 folk lore, nationalistic propaganda and forgery. Thank God
 I snapped out of it. ( Ignore the first part of that comment)
 it’s difficult to stop using such expressions. The brainwashing
 starts as children as soon as we become cognisant. Fiction
 stated as bald fact.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:43 pm
 
@Twmack
 Multiple repeats aside, very good points. The limited space for all the animals is significant. The argument that Noah only took certain kinds from which all others were bread requires extremely quick evolution, well beyond any theory of punctuated equilibrium.
And why are certain animals only in specific locations? So there were platypuses, koala bears, and kangaroos on the ark and after it landed at mount Ararat they proceeded to walk, then swim to Australia and none of them reproduced or died along the way and they were able to take along enough food specific to their species to survive? That may be a greater miracle that the flood itself. Is it not more reasonable to think that if this event happened at all, that it was much more localized?
WS
Reply
 
 Ejecting to Sanity says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:07 pm
 
No, the recent word ( last few years directly from platform ) is that one must b a baptized, active, in good-standing witness in order to survive..(meaning ..keeping hrs up, drone acting, s hool participation, commenting briefly from literature, submissive). Everyone else is killed. Those with family who have left or are inactive will nod and agree with this at the hall.. *brain off syndromesickening..this is one of the reasons I can’t stomach a meeting anymore, even though I intended to fade a bit slower than I am.
I would have to look thru past WTs, but I believe it days this pretty directly in study articles..I’ll post with my findings..
Reply
 
 Johnshipl says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:05 am
 
My feelings am trying to fade but now find meetings sickening .still take wife to meetings somtimes just drop off and collect .it now gives me panic attacks
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:32 am
 
@Johnshipl,
 I know the feeling. I went through the same things at the beginning of my fade. I used to sit in the meetings and replay my favorite movies in my head so I could shut out the mindless drivel from the platform.
My wife still goes too, but she drives so I don’t have to pick up / drop off. I still go to the memorial to keep my parents off my back. I dread it.
I used to get the panic attacks too. But I can say that with time they get less pervasive and easier to resist. I find it helpful to keep thinking that you are the one in control. They have no authority over you. It’s almost like a way to rebel: “I’m not going to let them control me in that way.”
Fight the good fight. All things will pass.
WS

 
 
 
 
 
 dee says:

 January 25, 2016 at 12:44 am
 
@Twmack
The scientific fact that the world will end one day is very sobering. Scientists are aware that life on earth cannot last much more than another three billion years due to the death of the sun. It is a scientific fact that the sun being a star, will die like all stars do. As the sun goes through its death throes it will either consume the earth or simply render life on earth impossible:http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fDjldLXzAsw
This scientific fact certainly doesn’t do much for the JW’s claim that god’s plan is for mankind to live forever on a Paradise earth.
Those bible writers sure managed to fool a lot of people with their nationalistic propaganda – they must be laughing to themselves at all those people they have been able to dupe into believing that they are the chosen nation.
Reply
 
 Deep Thinker says:

 January 25, 2016 at 9:58 am
 
This is only true if you believe that the Sun is powered internally. All measurements (Heat distribution and amount of Neutrinos being expelled) show that this Theory is not right.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 25, 2016 at 5:20 pm
 
@Deep Thinker
If I understand you correctly, are you saying that the sun will never die?
As I understand it, simply stated, the process of nuclear fusion which takes place in the sun, which is a star, converts hydrogen into helium and light energy – the light energy is needed to sustain life on earth. The sun has a finite supply of hydrogen fuel which will be exhausted eventually by the nuclear fusion process and so the sun cannot therefore go on burning forever.
Also, what about the many other prominent stars in our Milky Way galaxy that are currently dying? They include: Aldebaran (Alpha Tauri), Arcturus (Alpha Bootis), Gamma Crucis (Gacrux), Antares (Alpha Scorpii), and Betelgeuse (Alpha Orionis).
 What is the difference between these stars and the sun? Why are these stars dying but the sun won’t die (if I understand you correctly)?
I would be grateful for any references regarding your alternate theory.
TX.
Reply
 
 Deep Thinker says:

 January 26, 2016 at 10:18 am
 
I am not saying that the sun cannot explode, what I am saying is that the Sun and all stars and galaxies are powered externally – not internally.
The present model is gravity centric 17th century thinking and does not take into account the electrical nature of the universe.
Two Web Sites that can get you started into Plasma Physics and what really drives the universe and what happened to the earth about 10,000 years ago are the following.
http://www.holoscience.com
 Check out the Synopsis Pages
and
http://www.thunderbolts.info

 
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:34 am
 
Hopefully by that time mankind will have (dare I say it) evolved to the point where they will be able to live beyond the confines of this planet.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Twmack says:

 January 24, 2016 at 6:20 pm
 
Sorry about the repeated comment,please remove
 the extra if poss,
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:08 pm
 
They would barely have had any time to feed or care for all the animals. Most of their waking day would be consumed by shoveling & throwing overboard the literally tons of poop! No point surviving the flood only to drown in poop!
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:23 pm
 
Gotta love the Witnesses’ use of “love”. That 1 word has been used to manipulate more people than anything, from a personal to a mass level. “If u love me, u’ll do this or that.” “If u loved me, u wouldn’t do that, or think that, or believe that.” “If u love God / Yahweh / Jehovah / Allah / Whoever, u will do this or that; if u don’t, u r a bad, loveless person.” Like, I am the Master of Love, & if u don’t do as I dictate, I have the “authority” to deem u a bad, loveless soul, & ostracize u from all the decent, “loving” ones. Reminiscent of the Ministry of Love in Orwell’s 1984.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:33 pm
 
Here’s an interesting Wikipedia comment I just stumbled on, in ref to 1984’s “doublethink”:
the novel explicitly shows people learning Doublethink and newspeak due to peer pressure and a desire to “fit in”, or gain status within the Party — to be seen as a loyal Party Member. In the novel, for someone to even recognize – let alone mention – any contradiction within the context of the Party line was akin to blasphemy, and could subject that someone to possible disciplinary action and to the instant social disapproval of fellow Party Members.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:47 pm
 
If u liked that, u’ll love this:
 Doublethink is the act of ordinary people simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.[1] Doublethink is related to, but differs from, hypocrisy and neutrality. Somewhat related but almost the opposite is cognitive dissonance, where contradictory beliefs cause conflict in one’s mind. Doublethink is notable due to a lack of cognitive dissonance — thus the person is completely unaware of any conflict or contradiction.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 24, 2016 at 10:55 pm
 
Is that the ultimate definition of a Zombie, or am I way off here?
Reply
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 25, 2016 at 1:11 am
 
I love Zombies. I watched a movie where when vampire bats bit people they turned into zombies. The first to go was the police officer. He ran from the vampire bats trying to swat them away like flies and he ran through a door that didn’t have steps so he flew through the air like superman landing on his face. To me that sounds as intelligent as a watchtower lesson.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:35 pm
 
If u’re into Zombie flicks, Netflix has a bunch, including The Walking Dead, which I highly recommend.

 
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 25, 2016 at 12:25 pm
 
@A4
 Great Stuff. I just got a hold of an audiobook for 1984 and have been listening to it lately. Read it some years ago near the beginning of my awakening. Of course, the name I post under is the name of the main character.
WS
Reply
 
 Grace says:

 January 25, 2016 at 3:11 pm
 
I read the book at school & completely forgot about it until the last couple of years during my wake up. Out of the 2 movies, I prefer recommending the first one (the black & white version) to watch because of it’s simplicity. The 2nd one just seems a bit too psychedelic & I don’t think still ins would get the connection.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 James Broughton says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:56 am
 
It often get the impression that it would be a curse rather than a blessing to survive Armageddon. Remember, the Society teaches that death is like falling asleep with no pain. They declare that Armageddon occurs because people are so wicked. Yet the wicked are said to die a painless death and will be in a state of unconsciousness in the grave while the eight million or so Witnesses clean up the mess left by Armageddon. As Wilbur Lingle says, “The god of the Watchtower Society seems to be much kinder to the wicked than he is to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I would not want to be on earth inhaling the stench of the dead bodies and watching billions of worms eating them up!” Maybe I’m too squeamish.
Reply
 
 ruthlee says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:43 am
 
Hi James Broughton mentioned a comment from Wilbur Lingle. I was not sure if this is a book quote or someone posting but Iv’e thought so much about the point made. I have to agree the god of the Watchtower Society seems to be much kinder to the wicked than he is to JWs. Think about that for a moment folks. Us born ins from our conception we were not welcome, never praised unless we “contributed” in some way to the org. The threat of being reported to elders when naughty as youngsters, not allowed pets as they take away time from theocratic activities ,the list is endless. Then the urgency to get baptised young with never a mention of the fine print only to be kicked out if caught out for some random crime and misdemeanour against a shadowy authority figure. Or the other scenario a goody two shoes child never out of place, pioneers forever and never marries or breeds but wakes up and gives up. Having never celebrated a birthday or received any thanks or recognition for years of giving and sacrifice. The end result for both examples is Death because the moment the big A comes both are substandard ie not in good standing. What the hell is good standing anyway? This god the watchtower plot has hatched is nasty, not safe and keeps account of the injury. He must channel all that hate and disappointment into the GBs rule book to filter down to the cringing minions. Tight pants tone takes delight in grimming his face and demonizing The Almighty, for tony’s pleasure not anyone elses. If people want the hell of Armageddon they will surely get it with Tone and the Goons at the helm brandishing a large blue flag waving in the breeze and sick blind sheep awaiting the slaughter.All their theatrical nonsense produces a petty god not a loving creator . Its all too confusing for aminion like me who is never gonna die. Do you know folks i’m never going to die since 1925 I wasn’t even born til1965 aint that a miracle! ruthlee
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:38 am
 
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only son that all those in GOOD STANDING with the JW Religion might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”
Oh I am sorry, is that not the correct rendering?
Great points ruthlee
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 James Broughton says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:57 am
 
That should read “I often get…” Apologies.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:42 pm
 
Not to mention the mind-numbing boredom of spending Eternity sitting on a blanket, playing with a Panda, & learning more about “Jehovah”. LOL Someone pointed out that, according to scripture, the ‘resurrected’ cannot die…With 1 exception – Death by Boredom.
Reply
 
 Grace says:

 January 25, 2016 at 3:27 pm
 
Playing with a pandas…in their dreams!
Most of the Witnesses I knew hated nature & couldn’t handle being around animals. Where we live our property backs on to a National Park & wildlife reserve. We have acreage & have farm animals & often we would have Witnesses over for parties. I would smile & shake my head as I watched them cringe with the smell of the livestock & wouldn’t go near them. What a joke. They wouldn’t even pat the dog. I could see the look on their faces as if the animals were disgusting to them. I would say to them “if you can’t handle this. What are you going to do in the new system? When you have to start preparing your own food & not going to the supermarket for everything”.
I’m sure that their idea of the “new system” would be a Truman style of suburbia or that cities would be okay by then. Even the pictures of the new world were unrealistic to me.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 5:28 pm
 
Good point. Come to think of it, I don’t recall many outdoorsy types in the Borg.
Reply
 
 Tara says:

 January 25, 2016 at 7:03 pm
 
Most in my cong regard animals as food or vermin. They never really ‘got me’ and my love of animals. Even those who have animals would abandon them if the Borg. said to.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 January 25, 2016 at 4:00 am
 
It seems we are taking Armageddon as a jock as we forget a powerful organization behind preaching “Armageddon”!
Here are hints:
“Judah’s choice is this: Eat or be eaten”(ip-1 chap. 3 p. 29 par. 18)!
(Hosea 13:16) . . .Sa·marʹi·a will be held guilty, for she has rebelled against her God. By the sword they will fall, Their children will be dashed to pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open.”
Jehovah (=Humans behind the name) is a dictator: ARMAGEDDON IS REAL!
Reply
 
 Pow says:

 January 25, 2016 at 9:30 am
 
Nonetheless, the point still is, that even biblical there is alot of ambiguity as to what ARMAGETTON is, along with zero reason to belive that survival depends on being an active member of the watchtower bible and tract society of Pennsylvania, and following unquestionably there leadership starting with the original faithful slave, now identified as none other then Joseph Rutherford. ..
Reply
 
 
 
 Estêvão Bereano says:

 January 25, 2016 at 5:29 am
 
Hi Cover Fade,
Excellent article. You took the words out of my mouth.
 I believe that a good way to test the logic and reasonableness of Armageddon teaching is to try to explain it with simple words, but with all the details, to a child and wait for the reaction. This is when the (reasonable and “wise”) adults understands the madness and cruelty of all it.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 25, 2016 at 9:26 pm
 
Good point Estevao
 Thomas Paine wrote: Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 eyes opened says:

 January 25, 2016 at 10:07 am
 
Hi folks,
 There have been some comments made about 666 so I thought I would add my tidbit. I had done some research that said 616 was the Latin equivalent for Nero and that 666 was the Hebrew form for Nero. It would make sense that John would be very careful about naming a treacherous man. This “code” would serve as a protection to John which would be especially true if Revelation were written pre-70 while Nero was still alive. I apologize that I can not offer my reference information. I did this research sometime past.
Regards
Reply
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:36 am
 
Thank you. I feel history is interesting.
Reply
 
 
 
 Deep Thinker says:

 January 25, 2016 at 10:13 am
 
The problem is, is that we are judging the people who wrote the Bible with ourselves, and you cannot do that. They are not the same as us, and you can see the change from them to us if you read the Bible in chronological order (when the book was actually written).
The God of the Bible is a very vengeful God, and the only difference many times is the name. The Jew’s sacrificed, had temples, festivals, etc. but over time morphed into a more caring and loving god.
It appears that the writers (and most if not all of humankind) had a bicameral mind in the past that resulted in a definite schizophrenic writing style that ended about 2500 years ago in the breakdown of the bicameral mind to the minds of today where only one side of the brain is in control.
Reply
 
 
 Johnshipl says:

 January 25, 2016 at 10:20 am
 
The talk about armagedon by tony morris describing burnt bodies looking like hot dogs burnt and split open .and the reminding those listening that this is what they are gona see.is very disterbing considering there may have been children in the Audience. It does show the mindset of these men who claim to be ” of the lords anointed” very creepy.!
Reply
 
 
 Johnshipl says:

 January 25, 2016 at 10:20 am
 
The talk about armagedon by tony morris describing burnt bodies looking like hot dogs burnt and split open .and the reminding those listening that this is what they are gona see.is very disterbing considering there may have been children in the Audience. It does show the mindset of these men who claim to be ” of the lords anointed” very creepy.!
Reply
 
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 25, 2016 at 11:50 am
 
The way Tony Morris talked about harmagedon made me think of a show I saw on the science channel. It was interesting. The show explained that the area above the right ear within the brain is the area that controls what we call our conscience, our sense of right and wrong. The program showed actual experiments doctors did on volunteers to see if this area of the brain can be effected. The program showed how emotion, mental illness, drug abuse, EGO stroke and even other areas of the brain can interfere with that. I feel Tony Morris needs to exercise that area of his brain. He’s an idiot. He says dumb things. His ego causes him to run his mouth.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 2:32 pm
 
EGO => DIARRHEA OF THE MOUTH
Reply
 
 
 Idontknowhatodo says:

 January 26, 2016 at 4:38 am
 
I think Anthony Morrislll has early onset dementia.
Reply
 
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 25, 2016 at 12:32 pm
 
@Winston
“There is no absolute proof that the Bible is the only true word of God … It’s all subjective and relative, not absolute”
You may think that, but I know better. If you won’t believe Moses and Elijah, you won’t believe miracles either. That’s what Jesus said. A former elder should know that.
Elijah called down fire from heaven and killed 102 soldiers. Did they all deserve to die while doing their job? I don’t know. Not my concern. I defer the weighty decisions of life and death to God, and pray to be safe when the fire comes.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 25, 2016 at 9:58 pm
 
Simon,
 You seem fixated on the fact that I was once an elder – you have mentioned it in your last two or three comments. I am not sure what is behind this. Feel free to elaborate if you wish. You seem to be dumbstruck by the fact that an elder can question the authenticity of the scriptures.
It’s quite alright if you want to accept the Bible as God’s word. It’s your right to do so. But you offer no external evidence to justify this belief. Saying that the bible is God’s word because it says so is circular reasoning. I can simply argue back that the Hindu Vedas are God’s word because they say so. Now we are at an impasse. You have your belief in the Bible because it’s what you want to believe and I have my believe in the Vedas because that’s what I want to believe. Because neither of us is willing to find any common ground outside our own belief systems we can make no progress.
By the way I don’t believe in the Hindu Vedas per se, I am only using this for the point of anology. Forgive me if I say that I find your reasoning somewhat close-minded and I hope to open your mind just a bit of i can.
You mention not believing in Jesus miracles. I wasn’t around to see any of Jesus miracles and I don’t think that you were either. Why do you believe in them then? Because some people, who were trying to justify a new religion by the way, happened to write about them many years after he died? It’s okay for you to choose to believe in them, but please recognize that it is because you want to do so. You have no real evidence. And with such a lack of evidence, there is no logical reason for me to believe in them. That’s my choice. But it seems that you want to pass judgement based on something that is solely a matter of personal choice. Some of this may be residual from your JW indoctrination (really, except for a few minor criticisms you seem quite devoted to their teachings). I just want to encourage you to open your mind a bit and try to see things from other people’s perspective. After all, is that not the spirit of Matthew 7:12?
WS
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 26, 2016 at 4:23 am
 
Simon
 In response to your comment “That’s what Jesus said. A former elder should know that” I just want to add that knowing what the Bible says and accepting it as God’s word are two different things.
I believe that there is a Creator of the universe. However he does not speak to us through prophets or holy books. Rather he speaks to us through the marvels of creation. Holy books such as the Bible or the Vedas are examples of mankind’s attempts to understand the creator. Therefore I have respect for them and find value in some of their concepts. However, being the work of men, I don’t blindly accept everything they say or use them to condemn others.
What I mention above are some of the concepts of Deism. Solely for the purpose of helping you gain perspective on my belief system (not to evangelize in any way), I suggest The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine as a good reference. It can be read online at:http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/AOR-Frame.html
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 25, 2016 at 4:08 pm
 
Hello Big B:
 RE: your clarifying my comment about the immortality of those in the earthly resurrection.
I recall that the WT taught as you have stated in your comment a few posts back, regarding the earthly and heavenly resurrections.
According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 and will conclude at the outbreak of the Great Tribulation; any remaining ones of the 144,000 on earth when the Great Tribulation starts will be taken to heaven – the 144,000 will not be on earth to experience the Great Tribulation.
**Revelation, Its Grand Climax At Hand! p. 103**
“All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914 and his riding forth to start his kingly conquest by cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons.”
So the WT’s heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 occurs in THIS AGE which concludes with the Great Tribulation and Armageddon according to WT theology.
According to Luke 20:34-36 (NIV):
“The people of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in THE AGE TO COME and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and THEY CAN NO LONGER DIE; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
According to Luke 20:34-36, the resurrection of those who can no longer die takes place in THE AGE TO COME not in THIS AGE.
 According to WT theology the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 takes place in THIS AGE, whereas the earthly resurrection will take place in THE AGE TO COME. There is no heavenly resurrection in THE AGE TO COME according to WT theology. So , since the only resurrection that will take place in THE AGE TO COME according to WT theology will be the earthly resurrection, then it is to the WT’s earthly resurrection that Luke 20:34-36 applies. Such persons who will be resurrected on earth, can no longer die.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 25, 2016 at 4:11 pm
 
@Big B cont’d:
Also, on reading Revelation 20, I note that there are two resurrections as follows:
1. The first:
– is of persons who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands – so they will be on earth during the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (the Great Tribulation).
– these persons came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
– The second death has no power over them – so they are immortal, they cannot die. This is assumed to be the heavenly resurrection.
2. The second:
– is of persons who are described as the rest of the dead who did not come to life until the thousand years were ended (Revelation 20:5).
– is after the thousand years so no resurrection occurs during the millennium.
– of these persons there will be those whose names are not found in the book of life who will consequently experience the second death, so they are not immortal.
The persons of the first resurrection who will be granted immortality, had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands – so they will be on earth during the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (the Great Tribulation). The WT applies the first resurrection of Revelation 20 to the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 but that application is not appropriate since the WT’s 144,000 will not be on earth during the rule of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13 (Great Tribulation).
It’s also interesting to note that according to Revelation 20:5:
“the rest of the dead did not COME TO. LIFE until the thousand years were ended” – so there is no resurrection during the millennium. The resurrections occur at the beginning and at the end of the millennium yet the WT claims that there will be a progressive resurrection during the millennium of all the persons who died before Armageddon.
The WT resorts to an ad hoc definition of “COMING TO LIFE” as meaning something else than resurrection:
 **Revelation It’s Grand Climax is at Hand (1988)**
“By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “COME TO LIFE” in the sense that they will be perfect humans.”
The irony is that this definition of “COMING TO LIFE” contradicts the previous use of the same expression as referring to the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4): “And they CAME TO LIFE and ruled askings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
**Revelation It’s Grand Climax at Hand (1988)**
“Most of them are already very much alive, since they rode with Jesus against the nations at Armageddon. (Revelation 2:26, 27; 19:14) Indeed, Paul indicated that their RESURRECTION commences soon after the beginning of Jesus’ presence in 1914 and that some are RESURRECTED before others. (1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, their COMING TO LIFE occurs over a period of time as they individually receive the gift of immortal life in the heavens.—2 Thessalonians 1:7; 2 Peter 3:11-14.
The ad hoc interpretation of “COMING TO LIFE” as “attaining perfection” during the thousand years (with no attempt to provide supporting evidence) is a blatant attempt to avoid the plain meaning of these verses.
According to WT theology “COMING TO LIFE” has two different meanings in the same chapter of Revelation – it means “resurrection” in Revelation 20:4 but in the next verse, Revelation 20:5, it means “attaining perfection”.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 25, 2016 at 6:41 pm
 
@Big B
Another point I would like to mention:
 Those who are granted the first resurrection of Revelation 20, reign with Christ for 1000 years.
According to WT theology, the heavenly resurrection began in 1918 after Jesus’ enthronement in 1914. (Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand 1988, pg. 103)
So given that, according to WT theology:
– Christ commenced reigning in 1914
– the heavenly resurrection of the 144,000 commenced in 1918 (the gathering of the 144,000 commenced with the founding of Christianity in 30CE)
BUT assuming that Christ’s 1000-year reign is yet future, then it is clear that the 144,000 will rule with Christ for more than 1000 years.
So the application of the first resurrection of Revelation 20 by the WT to the heavenly resurrection of their 144,000 is inappropriate since the WT’s 144,000 reign with Christ for more than 1000 years whereas those granted the first resurrection of Revelation 20 reign with Christ for ONLY 1000 years.
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:38 pm
 
******All references to the Great Tribulation (GT) above are as per WT teachings, I am not endorsing a future GT – as I recall, the WT teaches that the GT is yet future and coincides with the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 25, 2016 at 6:54 pm
 
I was just thinking if the area above the right ear within the brain controls what we call our conscience, and things can interfere with that and the only thing that causes a man to do what he wouldn’t otherwise do is VAGINA (have sex) then it’s sad he would be killed at harmagedon. Some times I feel like God set us up for failure.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 8:20 pm
 
LOL
 I wonder about that too. I mean, He put us on a planet teeming with organisms that are constantly trying to kill us. It has a weather system so hostile we need to build shelters to keep from either freezing to death or dying of thirst. He gave us bodies that one would think were designed to become worn-down & arthritic. Our sun is evidently going to explode 1 day, & scientists still aren’t sure if the whole universe is going to implode or just fizzle out of existence. & we’re supposed to attribute all this to a benevolent, loving Creator who has our best interests & happiness at heart??? Whatever u believe, it’s a fact that our ancestors had to sharpen sticks & go hunting for woolly mammoths while themselves being stalked by saber-toothed tigers!!! I mean, I still believe in God, but WTF???
 The bible’s explanation of Original Sin is woefully inadequate. It states the penalty for sin is death. Death means death, not birth defects, blindness, deafness, paralysis, malaria, typhoid, AIDS, SARS, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, fibromyalgia, depression, day-to-day struggle for survival, etc, etc, etc. I just heard a story about a virus being transmitted by mosquitoes in South America. Pregnant women who are bitten give birth to babies with abnormally small brains. What could possibly be the purpose of that??? I mean, why mosquitoes in the 1st place, & why a virus like that? I can understand why many are atheists. I don’t believe in a “loving” God or an “angry” God, more like a generally apathetic God. Yes, it’s probably a weird belief, but that’s me.
 I don’t buy the explanation that due to Original Sin, “the whole of creation was subjected to futility”, either. That may explain why lions & tigers eat other animals, but it sure doesn’t explain why they have such long, sharp teeth & claws. Or why sharks have rows & rows of serrated, razor-sharp teeth. Or why the Great White Shark is a pure killing machine, literally. When its stomach gets full, it immediately regurgitates everything & starts over. What is the point of that??? Nor does Original Sin & “futility” explain the existence of viruses!!! I’m sorry, but after doing the math, I don’t see a “God of love”, more like a sort-of loving God. Could be He’s somewhat of a practical joker.
 Sorry this comment really doesn’t have a point. I just needed to vent. Who knows, maybe there will be another life where things aren’t as crazy.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 8:37 pm
 
PS At the risk of going off-topic again, I know there r sci-fi & fantasy fans here. Our hostile planet reminded me of the prison planet Salusa Secundus, of Frank Herbert’s “Dune” (c. 1965), voted by readers as the greatest work of imagination of all time (yes, even over LOTR). I highly recommend it, but make sure u get the ORIGINAL (just DUNE, c. 1965) – there are a million sequels, all with “DUNE” in the title. (also a movie & a miniseries). ’nuff said.
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 25, 2016 at 10:26 pm
 
A4,
 Your logic is sound. The whole ‘fall from grace’ (a.k.a.) original sin fails to explain these various issues. Plus mankind is constantly getting better, evolving, not getting worse as these teachings insist.
All life has evolved for its own preservation. Thus sharks have teeth, tigers have claws, etc. One biologist made the comment that evolution is somewhat “lazy.” What he meant that if it is just good enough to get by, then it will continue in the same manner. Hence why the great white shark has such faulty eating habits. It was, at least at one time, just enough for the creature to survive. There is no striving in nature to be more than adequate or to do more than maintain the status quo. It seems only humans have evolved to the level to desire to achieve exceptional greatness.
WS
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:01 pm
 
Thank you. That explains a lot. I guess I must reconcile my belief in God with Evolution, so that, if He exists, He set everything in motion (like with a Big Bang), & let it all evolve on its own. Otherwise, either He doesn’t exist, or He really is a murdering psychopath.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 26, 2016 at 5:48 pm
 
Those are the basic options, my friend. I went with option #1. Others have opted for #2. Option #3 is probably the scariest of them all.
WS

 
 
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 25, 2016 at 9:13 pm
 
Here’s an interesting Wikipedia comment about NGOs:
 Advocacy and public education NGOs affect global affairs in its ability to modify behavior through the use of ideas. Communication is the weapon of choice used by advocacy and public-education NGOs in order to change people’s actions and behaviors. They strategically construct messages to not only shape behavior, but to also socially mobilize communities in promoting social, political, or environmental changes.
Reply
 
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 January 26, 2016 at 2:20 am
 
All these people struggling in research and other intervention to build a strong human society will be destroyed at Armageddon just because they have not listened to JWs?
*** g96 11/22 p. 28 Watching the World ***
 Childbearing Tragedy
 About 585,000 women die each year during pregnancy or while giving birth, says a new comprehensive survey by UNICEF (United Nations Children’s Fund). According to the report The Progress of Nations 1996, much of the childbearing tragedy is preventable. It states: “For the most part, these are the deaths not of the ill, or the very old, or the very young, but of healthy women in the prime of their lives.” Some 75,000 women die each year because of botched abortions; 40,000 as a result of obstructed labor; 100,000 from blood poisoning; 75,000 from brain and kidney damage of eclampsia (convulsions and high blood pressure late in pregnancy); and over 140,000 because of hemorrhaging. Shortage of obstetric care in many lands is said to be largely responsible. UNICEF officials say that the data indicates that 1 in 35 women in South Asia and 1 in 13 in sub-Saharan Africa dies of matters related to pregnancy and childbirth, as compared with 1 in 7,300 in Canada, 1 in 3,300 in the United States, and 1 in 3,200 in Europe. The figures are nearly 20 percent higher than the earlier estimate of about 500,000 deaths a year.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:11 pm
 
Well, their research is not Bible-based, so they must be a bunch of stupid idiots (& wicked). lol
Reply
 
 
 
 enuffsenuff says:

 January 26, 2016 at 3:47 am
 
I read Dee’s comments and she mentioned “the” Great Tribulation (GT), as found in Mathew 24. The Greek text does not use the definite article “the” for that particular verse in Mathew.
 The word “the” does not appear in the NWT or any other translation that I have access to, ie. KJV, New Jerusalem, Gideons, GNT and others, for that particular verse in Mathew.
 My thought in mentioning this is, if the definite article is MISSING then we are talking about “a period of time” (of great trouble).
 If the definite article is THERE, then we are talking about a specific event in time, something comparable to, say, a surprise attack for example.
 Yet secular historians, Toynbee, Churchill, et al, link 1914 as a world changing year. They made no link or reference to the scripture in Math 24, as if 1914 had some significance to world events, so one could reasonably assume they were unbiased in noting that the world changed in a way as never before.
 If you look at the Mark ch13 (a tribulation), and Luke ch21 (great necessity) Mark using the indefinite article “a”.
Then, if it is a period of time, and, NOT an event in time, then this changes what most JW’s, and the WTS in particular, keeps saying, that “the” GT comes just before Armageddon.
 If you told refugees from Syria for example not to worry, because worse is ahead by way of a warm up to Armageddon, would they believe you? I don’t think so. How could it get worse for a young mum to find her child gassed to death by Sarin, or the iconic picture of a little boy drowned in the sea off Turkey and his grief stricken father. Events in various parts of the world show that we are having turmoil of all kinds, like never before, weather included. Even though some seem to think the GT is all blood and guts, it is not, and it is economics, disease, wars, you name it.
 So I am suggesting that the GT began in 1914 and is continuing still to this date.
Reply
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:22 pm
 
@enuffsenuff
Thanks for your comment regarding the Great Tribulation.
 Please note that I am not endorsing the Great Tribulation (GT) as a future event; I am simply stating what the WT teaches regarding this doctrine – as I recall, the WT teaches that the GT is yet future and coincides with the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13. I should have stated this in my comment above, I’ve now done so.
Reply
 
 
 
 John says:

 January 26, 2016 at 6:11 am
 
@enuffsenuff – Your comment…”I am suggesting that the GT began in 1914 and is continuing still to this date”.
In Matthew 24 Jesus likened the period of the conclusion of the system to the days of Noah, when normal everyday living would be happening, as it was then.
According to the Bible, there would not be a wind down or slow collapse to the point of it not functioning. The tribulation (a type such has never occurred before) bought about by God, would be something sudden and very different in which the previous normal living conditions would not exist.
Reply
 
 
 GEM says:

 January 26, 2016 at 6:47 am
 
The Great Tribulation started in 66 A.D and ended in the destruction of Jerusalem 70 A.D.
The good news was preached to all the “then known” inhabited earth. Those that heeded the warning got out and stayed out. Those that went back, perished.
End of Story. Where is the authority in any of the Gospels to superimpose any other interpretation?
Reply
 
 eyes opened says:

 January 26, 2016 at 9:35 am
 
Amen. The term HarMagedon means Mountain of Megiddo where many decisive battles were fought often involving the nation of Israel. What could have been more decisive for that nation than the destruction of Jerusalem in 70…? And who could have been more Babylonish than the nation that rejected their own messiah…? My take is that the rogue Jewish nation was Babylon the Great and Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 was Armageddon. Many of the things Revelation describes actually did happen during that destruction including the Roman military leaders standing at a distance weeping as the temple burned. They had wanted it saved for their own purposes. The water appearing as blood from the slaughter of people who had fled into the water. And so on…
My thoughts on the Bible is that much cannot be proved. As an example mankind has existed much longer than the Genesis account. The Hebrew scriptures did help identify the appearance of Jesus through genealogy and fulfilled prophecies regarding his birth. I can accept that. In the Greek scriptures Jesus taught the sermon on the mount which was how to live a good, happy, peaceful life. I can accept. It’s been proven that it works. Notice Jesus didn’t get all caught up in doctrine. Simply how to live. Show love, look after orphans and widows and so on.
Forgive my long windedness. Got too much time on my hands at the moment.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:20 pm
 
@ GEM
“Where is the authority in any of the gospels to superimpose any other interpretation?”
 — Well said!!!
 The GB are constantly interpreting this & interpreting that. ON WHOSE AUTHORITY??? The holy spirit?? How do they receive all these DETAILED messages? I’ve never seen any special antenna or anything. Do they wear tin-foil hats or something? RFLMAO
Reply
 
 
 
 Pow says:

 January 26, 2016 at 9:18 am
 
Just to add to this already murky discussion of end times prophecies. ….
Russell believed that the 144k was an earthly group, and the Great crowd heavenly. .
 Mainly because in context the great crowd is seen before the throne, in the divine habitaion of God (interlinear )and lastly in heaven. Whereas the 144k is only discussed in connection to the Jewish people.
 Food for thought.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:23 pm
 
Maybe there’s an elevator & they can go up & down.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:25 pm
 
A “spiritual” elevator, of course. LMAO
Reply
 
 M Saurus says:

 January 26, 2016 at 2:00 pm
 
Beam me up, Scotty!
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 2:38 pm
 
Did not even cross my mind. & I’m a hardcore Trekkie! lol

 
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 5:47 pm
 
Jacob’s ladder (Genesis 28:12) just might be that spiritual elevator!
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Twmack says:

 January 26, 2016 at 10:43 am
 
Yahweh’s sense of justice is all over the place, and far from
 perfect.– David survives after sending Uriah to certain death
 so that he could bed his wife.
But some poor guy gets his lights put out with rocks just for
 collecting wood on the sabbath.–
42 lads are torn to pieces by wild bears for the appalling crime
 of calling someone baldy.
People who believe this stuff, (And I was one of them) can easily
 accept the genocide of millions, just for failing to carry the
 JW card.
I’m certain any court would judge. The punishments far exceed
 the crimes.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 26, 2016 at 11:00 am
 
@Twmack
 Your points are well taken. I especially appreciate when Yahweh executed 70,000 innocent Israelites to punish David for taking a census. How’s that punish David? It the innocents that suffer.
WS
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:32 pm
 
We all bought it at some point. It seems to me that, as WT turns people’s minds to mush with all the propaganda & cult stuff, it has a desensitizing effect, so when studying all this crazy bullsh*t, no one sits up in their seat & goes “What the f***???!!!”
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:37 pm
 
We’ve probably all heard of the studies that proved people become more & more desensitized with exposure to violent films. Well, JW’s exposure to all the violence, bloodshed, & insane judicial system of the Old Testament has the same effect, as we can all attest to.
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The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
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Posted on January 22, 2016

The worldview of Jehovah's Witnesses revolves around Armageddon
The worldview of Jehovah’s Witnesses revolves around Armageddon

When I was a Jehovah’s Witness, I didn’t like to talk about Armageddon.
Don’t get me wrong, I loved to talk about the paradise. Who wouldn’t? I’d cheerfully tell anyone who asked, be they householder, interested person at the meetings, or curious workmate, about the awesome future that awaited. I’d talk about a world free from war, free from crime, full of incredible adventures that a peaceful, united human race would enjoy forever.
But when people asked how God would achieve this, I found myself getting a little vague and fuzzy about the details.
I mean, how do you say: “Well, first God needs to kill you and everyone you love, unless of course you fancy converting?” without making yourself look like a bit of a extremist loon?
I remember sitting in District Conventions, when the speaker would be holding forth with sound and fury on the subject of how God’s wrath would soon consume all those who failed to serve him. I would glance guiltily across at any “worldly” people who happened to be in the stadium, like the security guys, or the people working the concession stands. I’d feel like walking over to them and saying; “Don’t worry, he’s not talking about you, or your family or friends,” but I couldn’t, because he was.
I knew very well that unless they became Jehovah’s Witnesses, they were dead men and women walking.
Armageddon: An act of justice?
Let’s take a second to actually analyse the Watchtower’s teachings on Armageddon. It is presented by Watchtower as the war that Jehovah God will soon use to remove all of the Earth’s governments, and most of the Earth’s population, and install his own brand of rulership on the planet. He will fight it with his spiritual armies of angels, with his son Jesus leading the charge. He will have no need of human help, so Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be involved in any actual combat. Their role will simply be to stand and watch.
Who will survive? Well it depends who you ask. Or more correctly, it depends on who you are when you ask.
If you are a member of the public asking this question, you’ll probably get the answer: “That’s for God to decide. Only Jehovah can read a person’s heart. We don’t know who will survive and who won’t.” Take for example the FAQ on this subject from Watchtower’s official website JW. org. (Bold is mine.)

Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.
Well, that sounds okay on the surface. Maybe I can just live a good life, treat my neighbour well, and Jesus will read my heart, see that I’m basically a loving, kind man and I’ll be spared?
No. Because this isn’t the answer Watchtower gives behind the scenes to an indoctrinated Jehovah’s Witness. Here are some examples of what Watchtower has said about Armageddon in other publications, with even more examples available at jwfacts.com (Bold has been added)

“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19
“During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known Gods righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.”  Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?”
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
So it’s pretty definitive. While Watchtower tries to spin the doctrine to the general public that “all sorts of people might in theory survive Armageddon” the actual message in-house is that unless you are a practicing Jehovah’s Witness, you are toast.
Contemplate that for a while. Watchtower’s doctrine is that everyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness will be killed, no matter how loving, how kind, how selfless they are in other areas of their life. They could have spent their life in Medicine Sans Frontiers, selflessly dedicating themselves to providing medical care to fellow human beings in some of the worst places on Earth, whereas a Jehovah’s Witness may have simply worked as an IT engineer in a comfortable office, and never really helped anyone much.
But come Armageddon, it would be the Jehovah’s Witness who would survive, and the selfless medic who would die screaming.
To summarise, the non-Witness population of the planet would undergo a systematic slaughter of every single man woman and child. There is a name for the systematic killing of a civilian population solely for the purpose of extermination.
Genocide.
The ethics of genocide
You don’t have to use your imagination to see what Armageddon would look like. Human history is replete with examples of genocide. To glimpse the future that a “loving” God will being, look to the concentration camps of World War II. Look to the mass graves and “ethnic cleansing” in the Balkans, or the hacking to death of vast scores of Tutsi and moderate Hutu by the Hutu majority in Rwanda.
Or look on the news reports right now at the work of ISIS in the Middle East, who are currently engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Yazidi people.
Now, it goes without saying that 99% of Jehovah’s Witness are no doubt just as horrified as everyone else when they see the awful genocide that the so-called Islamic State are currently committing against the Yazidi population. The wholesale slaughter of men women and children, often in gruesome and sadistic ways, is an appalling crime that has brought universal condemnation from the international community and revulsion from anyone with even a halfway decent moral code.
Yet these men, women and children being slaughtered at the hands of ISIS, are the very same men, women and children who would be slaughtered at the hands of Jehovah if he brought Armageddon today, a slaughter the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be obligated to support and celebrate as a righteous act.
And it’s not like the slaughter would be any more humane; Watchtower does not teach that Jehovah will painlessly disintegrate his victims or cause them to simply fall asleep in quick, merciful death as would arguably be within his power to enact. No, Watchtower portrays this event as a violent holocaust, with people being crushed, burned and mutilated in a manner of which the sadists of ISIS would surely approve.
To prove this point, let’s take a look at some Watchower artwork depicting the event.
armageddon-1982-enjoy-life-p28
Ageddon Feature Image
WatchtowerArmageddon2003learnfromgreatteacher_p243
Watchtower Armageddon 1988revelation
WatchtowerArmageddon1997WT0901
This is just a small sample of art produced by Watchtower to demonstrate what they believe Armageddon will look like. A whirlwind of terror and grisly violent death unleashed against a powerless and unsuspecting civilian population.
If you’re still in any doubt, listen to Governing Body Member Tony Morris, one of Watchtower’s seven leading men, hold forth on how those God kills will burn and split open like hotdogs.
Even worse, according to Watchtower theology, those who die before Armageddon will almost certainly be resurrected into God’s New World in order to have a second chance, whereas those who die at his hands at Armageddon are eternally destroyed. Remember that Watchtower FAQ quoted earlier in the article?

Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Why do I say “even worse?” Because this teaching creates an horrific moral loophole. If Witnesses take their theology to its logical conclusion, they should be celebrating the deaths of “worldly” people at the hands of killers like ISIS, for those “worldly” people at least have a chance of resurrection in the new world, whereas if they escape the ISIS sadists but then die at Armageddon, they are doomed forever.
Again, to stress, 99% of Witnesses would be horrified if one of their number suggested this.
An elder who gave a talk from a Kingdom Hall platform stating that Christians should rejoice in the death of worldly people, and that groups like ISIS were doing the people they killed a favour by sending them en-mass to Paradise via the loophole of pre-armageddon death, would appall his audience, probably have his microphone muted, be hauled off the platform and into a back-room, be given a savage dressing down by the rest of the elders, and would probably not allowed to give another talk for a very long time.
Yet this theoretical Elder’s logic, whilst horrifying and unacceptable to most Witnesses, is a correct reading of the logical end consequence of Watchtower doctrine.
Genocide is always genocide
The more I came to realise what the Armageddon doctrine actually entailed, the more I came to fear there might be something horribly wrong with the Organisation I was supporting and the doctrine it promoted. Were such a violent act to be committed by a human organisation or movement, I would be revolted, and condemn it for the vile act of barbarism it was.
So how did it suddenly become acceptable if the very same people were slaughtered by a deity who claimed to be the very essence of love? Billions of defenceless men, women and children, all killed horribly because they were not convinced that a slightly obscure and insignificant religion that occasionally knocked on their door, or stood silently next to carts full of wafer-thin magazines, was actually the One True Faith?
Like many before me, I increasingly found my conscience could not support the teachings Watchtower promoted.
Like many before me, I came to properly research my beliefs, and thus realised that the teachings Watchtower promoted were often not even in harmony with the Bible.
And in time, like many before me, I left the Watchtower religion. In a way, Armageddon set me free.
Just not quite in the way Watchtower had intended.
 
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← Under new management: JWsurvey welcomes new Editor and Assistant Editor for next three months
 
481 Responses to The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon

← Older Comments
Newer Comments →
 
 Twmack says:

 January 26, 2016 at 12:54 pm
 
Hi W,S.
 The example you cite shows the twisted reasoning
 that often appears in the Bible. Thanks for your
 reply.
Reply
 
 
 Randall says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:01 pm
 
I would not want to live forever with those people. I see no love and compassion, there fore, I want to be slaughtered with the masses.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:44 pm
 
“They say there’s a Heaven for those who will wait. Some say it’s better, I say it ain’t. I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. The sinners are much more fun…” – Bill Joel, ‘Only the Good Die Young’
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:45 am
 
Great tune A4. I especially like this part:
“Well, they showed you a statue, told you to pray
 They built you a temple and locked you away
 Aw, but they never told you the price that you pay
 For things that you might have done
 Only the good die young”
I think that describes a number of us born into the JW religion. Oh the squandered years of youth.
WS
Reply
 
 M Saurus says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:22 pm
 
I’ve always thought that song summed it all up pretty well!
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 1:58 pm
 
I’m so grateful there were people like Jesus, Muhammad, & Moses. I mean, how else would we know to love each other, be decent, & get along, not to steal, murder, bear false witness, & respect our parents. I mean, before Jesus came along, wasn’t everyone getting up in the morning, going over to their neighbor’s house, stabbing him in the face, raping his wife, beating his children, kicking his dog, and stealing all his food? Before Moses came down from the mountain with the 10 Suggestions, wasn’t EVERYONE looting & pillaging, murdering, bearing false witness every chance they got, & totally disrespecting their parents?? & before Muhammad said anything about living in peace, we all know the World was in a constant, unrelenting state of universal warfare. LOL
 Do we really need some “great” prophet to “enlighten” us about basic, common sense, Dr. Seuss stuff that MOST people have practiced MOST of the time, since the beginning of CIVILIZATION???
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 26, 2016 at 5:56 pm
 
A4
 Along those lines check out this comedic yet pointed look at the 10 commandments: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8
PS there is cursing in this video and some opinions the devout might consider sacrilege. View at your own risk.
WS
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 7:46 pm
 
Hilarious! George Carlin rocks. Brilliant stuff – I always wondered how it was there were exactly 10. lol & I love the 1 he added: “Thy shall keep thine religion to thyself.”
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 7:53 pm
 
…Reminds me of comedian Dave Allen’s farewell words at the end of each show: “Good night, and may your god go with you.”
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 8:16 pm
 
Dave Allen – Religious Jokes




 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 11:04 am
 
Awesome stuff. I have not seen Dave Allen since I was about 10 years old. Used to catch his show on PBS on Sunday nights.
I recall him talking about how so many people loose their teeth in old age. Thus when they get to hell there is a weeping, wailing, and rubbing of gums.
WS

 
 
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 2:28 pm
 
I’m thinking back to all the BS that was crammed down my throat by the Watchtower Brainwashing & Trickery Society, & starting to REALLY resent it. I mean, I don’t care if Jesus walked on water. Why do I need that information? Or that he was born in a manger? Who cares? What if there was a global deluge? I’ve been to the zoo. I watch National Geographic. I know the animals are still around. Why should I care how they survived? & I don’t give a flying rat’s a** about Moses, Abraham, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, or, yes, even Mephibosheth (that nutty guy). & why did they indoctrinate me on all the rituals & practices of some Bronze-age tribe of goat-herders??? Festival of Booths, Day of Atonement, Jubilee Year – WTF?????? WHO CARES??? What good is ANY of that to me? I’m actually trying to FORGET all of that useless BS – it’s just taking up space in my brain. What do I care if some dude got swallowed by a whale? If I want a whale story, I’ll read Moby Dick. I remember 1 study about the Israelite high priest wearing special (purple?) fringes on his cloak. SERIOUSLY??? I need to know this??? Am I supposed to care that for a couple days, Egypt was covered in frogs? BTW, who cleaned them up after they died? And so what if “the kingdom of the heavens is like a field ready for harvest”? Man Alive!!! I could go on & on & on, as u all well know. No offence to anyone, but this stuff is only fit for children’s stories, IF even. If my brain had a Delete button, I would wipe it all out right now. Vive la Resistance! Long live the 5th Column!
Reply
 
 Chiafade says:

 January 27, 2016 at 6:40 pm
 
Yep all that Hebrew scripture stuff that was hung on the cro…I mean steak…I mean stake!
The point is Jesus was able to raise the dead. The mosaic law and everything that went along with it supposedly died with him. Yet Jesus seems intent on “inspiring” , oh excuse me, “directing” his brethren to keep resurrecting it in watchtower publications. You would think the JWs are more israelite than Christian.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:23 pm
 
LOL
 Exactly! That’s what I think.
— They keep resurrecting that @#$%^&* over & over & over. Just DIE already!!!
Reply
 
 
 Idontknowhatodo says:

 January 28, 2016 at 1:50 am
 
One of the things that never made sense to me is the jw concept of the raising of the dead…I couldnt get beyond the fact that it would basically be a clone of the person who has died…I looked at it every which way and upside down…but the fact is a clone of the person who has passed is what you are being offered…thus came my realisation that this is no rehearsal..this life is it… shame it took me so long to wake up.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 28, 2016 at 11:24 am
 
Yes. In order for it to be anything other than cloning would require humans to have a soul (essence) that can be transferred into a new body. And we know the JWs are dead set against the teaching of humans having a soul.
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Scag says:

 January 26, 2016 at 3:01 pm
 
You may recall in the Old Testament God was not averse to wiping out men, women and children without mercy. If he deems it appropriate history shows that he will do it. Clearly there are times when God sees wholesale destruction as appropriate. Who are we to argue with God and say that he is not justified?
Reply
 
 
 Scag says:

 January 26, 2016 at 3:13 pm
 
According to the Old Testament God has destroyed people enmasse before, the flood, the Canaanites etc, who’s to say he won’t do it again? You, me?
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 26, 2016 at 5:51 pm
 
– Edit. Attacking the commenters on JW Survey, and not their argumentation, is a breech of guidelines. Post deleted.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:49 am
 
– Deleted. Again, attacking the commenters and not their arguments breaks the guidelines. I’ve been very flexible in this thread but there are limits.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:24 pm
 
There’s nothing wrong with that rule, in my opinion. I appreciate ur sense of humor, fortunately everyone here seems to have a pretty thick skin (gee, I wonder how that came about LOL). But don’t u think it’s a little rude to mock ur hosts?
Reply
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 8:38 pm
 
@ Scag
 RE “Who’s to say He won’t do it again?”
 — Who’s to say He WILL???
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 26, 2016 at 11:14 pm
 
My point is if God has demonstrated in the past that he is ready and willing to use enmasse destruction then only a fool would discount its use in the future. It is not only in the realms of possibility, but the bible teaches a coming great tribulation such as has never been seen before. Going off past history, God is not averse to using such methods. Anyone that professes a belief in the bible can’t discount the very clear language that refers to a future great tribulation that will involve the loss of many lives. If one says a God of love would never do this then one in effect is saying he or she understands things and sees things more clearly and impartially than God. What a conceited position!
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 27, 2016 at 3:14 am
 
@scag
 So essentially, you feel that the position as described in the article is correct? God is about to carry out an act that, should a human carry out it would be considered a terrible atrocity, and that’s perfectly okay?
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 3:45 am
 
Covert Fade,
You may have missed my meaning. If one accepts that God is Almighty, all knowing, omnipotent, etc then he has the right to destroy whomever he wishes. And we may never fathom his reasons for doing so, since our thinking is very limited and moral compass generally defective. His ways are higher than our ways his thoughts higher than ours. We are not his intellectual equals. We can not see the whole picture nor do we fully understand his end game. How then can we state that anything he does is wrong? It is impossible for God to do the wrong thing. So the only conclusion can be that we simply can’t understand or refuse to understand his purpose. Our view is therefore, very limited, defective. He sees the whole picture and all the possible scenarios, this is beyond anyone of us. It’s a bit like comparing apples with pears. There is no comparison we cannot fully understand the mind of God. But we can be sure he doesn’t make mistakes or that he is unjustified to destroy those whom he deems necessary. Anything he does is for the best possible reason.

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:06 pm
 
A couple thoughts on this:
 First of all, according to scripture, we are created in God’s image. Most understand this to mean that we have the same capacities as God does for love, compassion, mercy, and a sense of justice. To indicate that man simply cannot comprehend the justice or lack thereof in some act seems to deny this fact. After all we are not like cattle who can be raised one day and then slaughtered and eaten on the next, indiscriminately. Rather, the scriptures teach us that human life is sacred and to be preserved.
Secondly, it seems that God gets blamed (or is it more correct to say takes credit?) for more killing than he actually does. He is given direct credit for the flood, Soddom and Gomorah, the first born of Egypt, etc. But he is also credited for the destruction of Judah (both in 607/587 BCE and 70 CE) whereas the actual destruction occurs at the hands of foreign armies.
Thirdly, have you ever noticed that God took less direct action as time went on. Most of the direct acts of execution happened very early in biblical history. After about 1000 BCE, more often than not God used others to execute his judgement. Even the JWs teach that the destruction of Babylon The Great (religion) will occur at the hands of the Wold Beast (the UN).
WS

 
 
 
 Victor says:

 January 27, 2016 at 3:33 am
 
if so, why on earth should I feel drawn to a God like that? for fear? then I prefer to die
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 3:57 am
 
Don’t get me wrong. God is very merciful and very loving. But that is a separate issue. What I’m arguing here is that he is not averse to destroying any and all who don’t fall in line with his requirements. He’s done it before and he says he will do it again. Regardless whether one accepts the JW belief on this point or not the scriptures are clear. There is a day of reckoning awaiting all. Since the vast majority of mankind couldn’t care less about God, logically those that receive an adverse judgement are going to be very numerous. This is all inspite of whether one accepts the JW belief or not. To be fair most Christian regions believe that their particular interpretation of the scriptures is correct and everybody else is wrong. In this regard no religion is different to JWs.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 7:30 pm
 
I try to respect people’s religious beliefs, but the more I think about it, the harder it gets. As for Satan worship, I would say the real Satanists are the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who ‘sacrifice’ their own children to “Yahweh” & their Organization.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:11 pm
 
Does Satanism really exist in a pure sense? Most of the so-called satanic cults of the 70’s and 80’s were found to be nothing more than hype. People today who worship nature are loosely called satanists or witches or wican. Satanism seems to be nothing more than a label used by menbers of one religious sect to defame another.
WS
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:07 pm
 
I would say most “Satanists” are merely ‘posers’, like those people who claim to be vampires or whatever. But I’m sure some exist. I heard 1 story about a satanic cult that targeted some guy. They killed his cat, & threatened to kill him. So he waited in his house every night with a shotgun. They finally came creeping through his back yard toward the door 1 nite. He blew them all away, was charged, & got off on Temporary Insanity. Happy Ending.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 26, 2016 at 10:24 pm
 
The Bible is one of the most offensive books ever written. It is racist. It is sexist. It is replete with tales of violence, bloodshed, and genocide. If I wrote a book like that today, they would lock me up and throw away the key. Writing a book like that today would be considered a Hate Crime.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 26, 2016 at 11:22 pm
 
This statement is born of pure and simple ignorance.
And by the way you have it the wrong way around. In this twisted world we live, in a book about, sex, genicide, adultery, etc would probably be a best seller.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:20 pm
 
@Scag
 It sounds like what I am hearing is “anyone who disagrees with me is ignorant.” A4 is entitled to his opinion of the scriptures even if you don’t agree.
But I do agree that a book about sex, genocide, adultery, etc. would be a best seller. In fact I think this is reflected in the fact that there have been a number of motion pictures made about the bible.
WS
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:32 pm
 
LOL Nice punch line.
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:51 pm
 
@ Scag
Funny, I never mentioned sex or adultery, but thanx for rounding out my synopsis of the Bible for me.
 PS Not mocking u, just having a little fun. Frankly, as long as u’re not a JW Troll, I don’t begrudge u ur beliefs. & I agree, if God exists, He can destroy whomever He wants, for His own reasons. IF He’s done it B4, sure He can do it again. But neither u nor I can make any guarantee 1 way or the other. Don’t u agree that THAT would be a “conceited position” to take? I think some of the hostility u may be feeling from others comes from years & years of folks having these teachings crammed down their throats. We’re certainly not a bunch of pagan satanists or anything. lol If u r indeed a recovering or recovered JW, u surely understand. Some of the comments supporting the Armageddon doctrine r reminiscent of JW Doctrine, & speaking 4 myself, that just sets me off sometimes.
Reply
 
 Chiafade says:

 January 27, 2016 at 7:00 pm
 
Agreed, some of the comments made are fit for a watchtower article “certainly we would want to be found as busy as possible in harmony with Jehovahs organization before his great day”.
You can’t be angry at people for having a cult flash back.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:42 am
 
Judging by most of these comments about Armageddon and Watchtower’s bad influence regarding the Bible, I realise that their influence has darkened many hearts. They painted a picture of a cruel and heartless god by their insistence that everyone has to be a Jehovah’s Witness in order to be spared. It has had certain success in making Jehovah’s Witnesses to either feel superior or to hate God as the supreme executioner.
I believe that this thinking is straight from Watchtower brainwashing. How could God possibly be like this when at John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Watchtower got Him wrong. God made us. This world is crap right now as it has been taken over. That’s pretty obvious. Why wouldn’t there be a plan to fix it? I guess you have to believe that the Creator knows what He is doing. If He says He’s going to fix it by means of what he wrote in The Revelation, then I believe Him. He’ll do it whether we like it or not through means of Jesus.
Reply
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 27, 2016 at 3:24 am
 
Moderators note –
If you disagree with someone’s comments, address the points they make. Do not attack them as a person.
This goes for all sides.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:45 am
 
My categorical analysis of the spirit and environment here was not a personal attack. It was a statement of fact, and true. The atheists / deists here are never censored or accused of evangelizing. When they promote their ideas, the moderators look the other way. The moderators here are not impartial.
Deleting my post proves my point and confirms my warning: Christians stay away from this place. It’s a cabal of atheism disguised as a JW support group. It’s a talking snake that will deceive you.
Reply
 
 Caroline says:

 January 27, 2016 at 11:15 am
 
Simon, Atheists don’t evangelize. The only ones who evangelize are the ones who are the believers and can’t understand why atheists don’t believe.
Atheists don’t have any opinion on whether or not God exists or not. They just don’t believe. That is all there is to it. If you can give unbelievers some concrete evidence in the existence of a God (whatever God it could be), then we’d believe. Nobody would be stupid enough to not believe something if it could be proved as a fact and nobody should be angry if a person is not convinced without any evidence. You should not resort to insults and false accusations against non-believers just because they don’t believe the same as you do.
It is not a sin not to believe in something without any evidence but that is the way most people who belong to a religion are taught to believe.
There are thousands of other religions, so don’t assume that without studying all of them that you just naturally fell into the “right” one because all those other religions are just as narrow minded as you are and unless you actually study each and every one of them, you don’t know for sure if they have the truth or not or if you do. Any religion that tells you that you are not allowed to study the other religions is a cult. That should be a red flag to anyone who actually wants to know the truth.
If God really did exist and he was going to destroy all the people in the world who did not follow him, don’t you think that he’d have made his wishes known to all the world some how? If he would destroy all those who didn’t believe in Him without giving some kind of concrete evidence of his existence, then I have no respect for that kind of God.
If I had a child and gave him over to somebody else to raise him and never talked to that child, how could I expect that child to “obey” me? As Witnesses, we were always told that the Bible was God’s instruction book to mankind but we were never given the reasons to prove that God “wrote” the Bible. We were just told that and we believed it.
I think it is hilarious that in the March 2016 study edition of the Watchtower on page 9 it says: “learning to use your “power of reason” early in life will prepare you to give reasonable answers to your peers when they raise such questions as: ‘How do you know for sure that there is a God? Why does a loving God permit evil? How can it be that God has always existed?’ When you are prepared, such questions will not weaken your faith but will spur you on to do additional personal study.”
I think those questions are hilarious because there is not a person in the world who can prove that God has always existed and there is not a person in the world who can know for sure there is a God, let alone a child who has never been given the answers to those questions. Can you answer those questions? If so, you are a lot smarter than anybody that I know.
The Society likes to ask questions like that to kids but can any of the adults answer those questions without using the Bible (circular reasoning)? Just because a book says that God made everything, doesn’t make it so and just believing it doesn’t make it so.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 11:44 am
 
Atheists do evangelize: they preach the antithesis of God.
In court you can be convicted of murder on the testimony of witnesses. No forensic evidence required. No dead body required. If people saw you do it, and testify, the jury WILL find you guilty.
Their testimony IS evidence. Look up the definition of the word.
People saw Moses part the Red Sea. But you don’t accept THAT evidence, because you don’t like it. Tough. That’s your problem.
You and all other atheists will be destroyed by death, whether by old age or Armageddon. YOU CANNOT SOLVE THAT PROBLEM.
Only God can. But you reject him. So die. Not my problem.
Reply
 
 Wanderer says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:02 pm
 
What hope do the Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Taoist, and many more other type of non-Christian believers have? They number into the billions. They are worshipping their particular deity as best they can, have they just lost the geographical lottery by being born in a non-Christian country?

 
 
 Caroline says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:18 pm
 
Simon, believers make the claim that there is a God and everyone owes their lives to Him but unbelievers don’t make any claims. They just say they don’t believe without any proof. Do you have proof? Why get so emotional that people don’t share your beliefs?
Just because a book such as the Bible said stuff happened like the parting of the Red Sea, that is some extraordinary feat so there should be some extraordinary evidence of such a thing actually happening. Is there any evidence anywhere other than the Bible, that such a thing happened?
If you accept the account about Moses parting of the Red Sea, then you should have an answer to the rest of the Law that God supposedly gave to the Israelites in the Wilderness.
There are a lot of really disturbing things mentioned in the Law but most people only think of the ten commandments but there’s over six hundred laws in the Law and most people aren’t aware of all that other stuff that God supposedly told Moses to write down, like for instance that fathers could sell their girls into slavery for the rest of their lives.
Also if a man owned a slave and the owner of the slave provided his slave with a wife, then the children and the wife belonged to the slave owner for the rest of her life and if she has any children, the children belonged to the slave owner for the rest of their lives.
People think slaves could go free after a certain length of time but that only went for the original man slave. If he wanted to stay with his wife and children, then all that family belonged to the slave owner for the rest of their lives.
An owner of a slave could beat his slave and if the slave died, all the owner had to do was pay back the original owner of the slave 30 silver pieces as the slave was that man’s “property”.
Those laws were given to Israel by God according to the Bible and that shows what kind of God Jehovah is and I don’t respect that God but I don’t believe any of that stuff because there is no evidence that those people ever lived in that area.

 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:24 pm
 
Even those people have heard about Moses parting the Red Sea. Whether they choose to investigate and believe is up to them. They can find a Christian mission somewhere. Especially nowadays with Internet access. Even in repressed Muslim countries.
This is not WT talking. I don’t care what WT says. Contrary to the accusations of some, I was never indoctrinated by WT. I followed their teaching for a time, but when I realized they are not “the truth,” I left.
Why are you worried about the general population anyway? Worry about your own A$$. If you care about them so much, become a Christian and go on secret missions to Muslim countries.
Have a real adventure!

 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:37 pm
 
OK Caroline, you changed words. You admit there’s evidence, but now you want PROOF.
Sorry, you won’t get any miraculous proof. If you don’t believe Moses and Elijah, I can’t help you.
Emotional? It’s sad to see people die. Even the wicked. But they deserve it, and besides preaching to them, there’s nothing more I can do about it.

 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:28 pm
 
You say people “saw” Moses part the red sea. People also “saw” Mohammed ascend to heaven on a winged horse. Why do you not believe in that, given that the same amount of proof exits for both i.e both accounts were recorded in books that claim to be inspired of God, but have no other corroborated evidence?

 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 2:13 pm
 
Who else besides Mohammed vouches his claim of heaven and horse? Sounds like impersonation of Elijah to me.
As for corroboration of Moses, Jesus did that in the transfiguration.
But why ask me? Are you not sure of your own belief?

 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 5:56 pm
 
@ Simon
U say u can be convicted in court on the testimony of witnesses. However, in court, written testimony is not accepted.

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 9:18 pm
 
Excuse me Simon, but no one has given testimony that Moses parted the Red Sea except Moses. Only Moses wrote about it. He claims that other people saw it, but where is the testimony of all these other witnesses recorded? Even the bible says by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall all matters be proven. But we really only have one witness to this alleged event.
You accept that Moses parted the Red Sea based on faith not fact. That’s ok. But simply call it what it is: faith, not an assessment of facts.
I also notice you have taken the liberty of condemning all the atheists to death. I think perhaps you might have missed this scriptural thought: Matthew 7:1-2 “Do not judge, so that you won’t be judged. For with the judgment you use, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
WS

 
 
 
 Meredith J says:

 January 27, 2016 at 11:52 pm
 
Wanderer, you did not see my previous links to Muslims and Jews who have been given visions by Jesus to become Christian. That is a fact. Maybe Simon is right.
Reply
 
 
 Peggy says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:41 pm
 
Caroline, you put into words exactly what I have been thinking for so long. Thank you. I asked my parents many times about Armageddon. It seemed very unjust, all things considered. They always gave me the lame answer that god is all knowing and we just can’t understand his reasoning, but, that is OKAY because he is so just. I just had to get out. I do not believe any of it any more. As you stated, no evidence for me= no respect for that kind of god.
Reply
 
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:20 pm
 
Simon, the reason your statements were deleted was because they were attacking the other commenters themselves, not the ideas that commenters were proposing. If the atheists here attack you, and not your ideas, they will be similarly warned and their comments deleted. Now I note that you are attacking the site itself. I encourage the genuine and robust debate of ideas, and you will find I have deleted none of your posts where you robustly attack ideas you disagree with, but you will find I have a very low tolerance of personal attacks on others. To prove good faith on my part, I am giving you a last warning and a detailed explanation. I hope you take it in the spirit it is intended.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:52 pm
 
Winston said to me:
“You seem to be dumbstruck”
 “I find your reasoning somewhat close-minded”
Sounds personal to me, but you didn’t say a word about that. Not that I need your help, I can defend myself.
My comment you deleted did not attack individuals. It described group attributes hostile to Christians.
As for attacking the site, let’s call it what it really is. You may be more clever than Cedars by allowing some latitude for Christian expression here, but I expect you’ll follow his lead and shut down the discussion, by deleting posts and banning, when atheists can’t win the debate.
Reply
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 27, 2016 at 2:04 pm
 
Simon, even if I ban you, (which I am about a hair’s breadth away from due to your continued inability to distinguish between attacking ideas and attacking the people who hold them, and your instance in one post (not deleted) telling those people that they are going to die as a result of their lack of faith), I will not delete your posts where you expressed your argumentation on this particular subject. I am happy for those posts to remain, which should hint to you that I am not banning you because I fear your ideas. I feel that your posts gave a good account of your ideas and beliefs, the depth of reasoning that went into them, and the arguments that can be put forth to defend them. I would like as many people to read them as possible for that exact reason, so they will not be deleted.
Last chance. No more attacks on people. No more telling them they are going to die. No more attacking this site. There will be no further warnings.

 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 2:25 pm
 
Moderators note- post was removed due to violations of guidelines)

 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 28, 2016 at 6:07 am
 
Simon, I’ve given multiple warnings on this, and tried to be exceptionally flexible given the subject under discussion, but you are clearly unable or unwilling to moderate your behaviour. So I’m blocking you. I would note two things, mostly for the benefit of others reading this site:
 1: Other people in this thread have been able to argue from a position of Christian faith and challenge the ideas of fellow commenters without attacking the commenters or the site team themselves, or overtly threatening other posters with death unless they convert. Hopefully this will illustrate the difference between debate and evangelism.
2: I am happy for Simon’s posts to remain intact, to show that he was not banned because I feared his arguments. In fact, as I said, I encourage people to read his arguments in detail. I feel they stand well as an accurate representation of his position.
3: My points apply to anyone arguing from any position of faith or lack of it.
4: In future I will give fewer warnings and less explanation.
Basically, don’t make me moderate. You wouldn’t like me when I moderate.

 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 5:24 pm
 
@ Simon Kestral
Dude, lighten up! U’re sounding more & more like a JW!! WTF??? U don’t have any authority whatsoever to pronounce death on people!!! I’m pissed off right now, NOT at U, but just recalling all that BS from the WT Brainwashing Society, which amounted to nothing more than THREATS!!! If u backed off a little from all the ‘fire & brimstone’ talk, u might avert some of the ‘antagonism’. We’re all adults who r entitled to our own choices. IF u happen to be right, so be it. It seems to me by what u said of ur association with the Borg, u really were not “in” long enough to understand how deeply the indoctrination goes. I, for 1, was raised in that Drivel-Factory, & the resentment runs deep. B4 u criticize the folks who run & visit this site, u should try to understand them a little better.

 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 5:54 pm
 
I was in for a pretty long time. Maybe as long as you’ve been alive. 20+ years. I know what they teach, and how. But I didn’t have family in, and never delegated my thinking to the org. So I was not indoctrinated. But I understand how it affects people with family, and those born in.
Death does threaten us all. Try to separate that fact from your anger towards WT. I have anger too. I wasted many good years believing their lies.
But there is Christian life beyond WT. Don’t let anger blind you to it.

 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 7:28 pm
 
@Simon Kestral
“Death does threaten us all.”
Based on this comment, I get the impression that you fear death?

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 9:55 pm
 
@Simon
 You say:”I was not indoctrinated”
Your speech here on this site seems to indicate otherwise. It carries the same judgemental attitude and fear tactics used by the watchtower. But this type of rhetoric has no power here. Most, if not all, of us have woken up to these tactics and don’t succumb to such threats.
You also seem to embrace the Watchtower’s propensity for taking quotes out of context. You argue that I attacked your person calling you close-minded. But let’s look at what I said in context: “Forgive me if I say that I find your reasoning somewhat close-minded and I hope to open your mind just a bit of i can.”
In context, it is clear that I was expressing an opinion on your argumentation and I even prefaced it by asking for your pardon.
I have tried to show respect to you and your opinions when replying to you, but you have not responded in kind. Instead you have threatened and condemned and really failed to demonstrate a Christlike attitude.
I implore you to learn from the book you profess to endorse: Romans 12:17-18 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Try to do what is honorable in everyone’s eyes. If possible, on your part, live at peace with everyone.
WS

 
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:22 pm
 
Hi Covert Fade,
I understand you need to keep a handle on things, that’s fine, there’s no complaint there. But let’s not forget who unleashed the beast. It’s your article that has given rise to comment. If the discussion has progressed in directions that are not directly related to the topic so be it, that is the nature of the beast. A forum such as this has its very obvious draw backs. It is very limited. But I think to threaten blocking someone is beneath you and runs against the very principles this site is supposed to uphold. The discussion has to be fluid and organic, otherwise it will be a very sterile atmosphere. I’m sure you can understand that.
True some do push the boundaries and that’s not right. Rules are there to be observed, but your power as a moderator can be seen as giving you an unfair advantage. Nobody likes the big brother approach.
I know I’m probably risking being banned just for voicing my opinion. I hope that’s not the case, and that you will accept my observations in the spirit they are intended not to criticise but to ask that you allow continued latitude in discussion to the greatest possible extent. You are right in saying you have been very lenient thus far and I for one appreciate it very much as I’m sure we all do. That’s all I’m saying.

 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:32 pm
 
You won’t be banned for voicing your opinion, I was very specific as to the reasons why a ban was enforced on another commenter – in his comments he was directly informing other commenters that they would die if they did not convert to his religion. He also began to issue personal attacks on members of the JW Survey team, and other commenters. Even under the flexibility I was allowing due to the nature of the article under discussion, I deemed that to be unacceptable. He was warned. He ignored the warning. He was warned again. He ignored the warning. Thus he was banned.

 
 
 
 M Saurus says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:29 pm
 
Well at least Simon gave Covert a chance to spread his new moderator wings. More moderating has been done in the last several days than I’ve seen my whole time visiting this site! Might they be the same person?
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:37 pm
 
Hi Covert Fade,
You make a fair point. I accept it unreservedly. And thank you for not taking my comments personally. They were not intended to be personal and you understood that, so thanks again.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Kat says:

 January 27, 2016 at 3:29 am
 
thanks anonymous for posting Dave Allen hilarious always my fav!
Reply
 
 
 Caroline says:

 January 27, 2016 at 3:36 am
 
@Scag and Simon. Can you show us any evidence that there is a God and if so, which God is the real one that created everything in the universe or is a “belief” in God that is real to you so that we should fear Armageddon?
Many years ago, I had on my television set in the morning and a religious show was coming on and it said at the beginning of the show that they were going to “prove” that God is a trinity so I had to watch it. At that time, I was still quite strong in the belief in the “truth” and the Bible and God. I watched the whole show and at the very end the guy said “that is why we “believe” that God is a trinity.
That show was a real eye-opener for me. From then on, when I’d meet somebody at the door and the topic of the trinity came up, I’d say “You believe God is a trinity and I believe that God is not a trinity but neither of us can prove it, until we get to heaven and face God face to face and then we can see whether or not he is a trinity or not, right?” They’d always agree.
The point of the story is that a belief is not a fact. We can’t prove a belief but we can prove facts. If you can prove that God is real, I will believe it. That is what an atheist is. You “believe” in God and I don’t “believe” in God.
You can’t say that a person who doesn’t believe in something without proof is arrogant because he doesn’t believe in something without any proof. We aren’t saying we think we are smarter than God.
We are just saying that without any real proof, we can’t be scared of Him. Could you say we are arrogant because we don’t believe in the Loch Ness Monster without any real proof? People who believe in God (any God) fear the unknown.
I can’t fear an unknown and I can’t fear Him or It just because you fear Him or It.
That doesn’t make me arrogant. You are the one who is arrogant because you think that just because you have a fear of your God, that I also have to be in fear of Him.
I don’t judge you because of my beliefs and you don’t have any right to judge me because of your beliefs. If that is how you think, then who is the arrogant one?
If you can prove that the Bible is from a perfect God and that all the supposed miracles happened in the Bible, besides what the Bible says happened (circular reasoning), then I’d also believe in those miracles.
The onus is on you if you are going to say that we deserve destruction by your God if we don’t “believe” in Him without any evidence that he is real.
According to the Bible, anybody who doesn’t “believe” in that God of the Bible deserves destruction. There are billions of people in this world who do believe in a God but not your God of the Bible.
Why do you think Christians are the only ones who have the only “right” God and the only right book? Every person who belongs to a certain religion, “believe” they are worshipping the only “right” God. You are no different than all those other people. That is narrow-minded thinking, straight out of Watchtower speak.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:12 am
 
It’s a little like the French philosopher Pascal said. There are 3 possibilities. 1) If God exists and we don’t believe in him, we stand to lose everything. 2) If we live our lives as if there is a God, and it turns out there isn’t, what have we lost? Nothing we will have lived a good life anyway. 3) If God does exist and we have done our best to live in harmony with his requirements we have everything to gain. So if one was a betting person the smart bet would be to believe in God, you lose absolutely nothing by doing so. On the other hand if there is a God and you don’t acknowledge him you stand to lose.
I’m not saying one should serve God simply because it is a safe bet. No, that wouldn’t be right. One should serve God because he believes that is the right thing to do. Pascal was trying to illustrate a point, not believing in God is a like a risky bet, one nobody needs to take.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 5:32 pm
 
Well put.
Reply
 
 
 Peggy says:

 January 28, 2016 at 3:19 pm
 
@Scag,
 What god? Which god? One should serve god because it is the right thing to do? I see little to prove that living / obeying / b elieving in some god makes one especially better than a secular person.
Reply
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:04 pm
 
@Caroline
 Perfectly logical reasoning.
 WS
Reply
 
 
 Peggy says:

 January 28, 2016 at 3:15 pm
 
@ Caroline,
 Thank you again for a perfectly sound argument.
Reply
 
 
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:59 am
 
It’s simple. God is love. But love does not preclude the implementation of discipline, correction and punishment. In fact, it could be successfully argued that true love goes hand in hand with discipline, correction, and punishment. What loving human parent can truly love his or her children without firm and sometimes unpleasant discipline. Certainly God is no different. How can anyone say God is unfair if he gives everyone an opportunity, free will, warnings etc? He grants a lot of latitude. It is us who fail to avail ourselves of the opportunity. Likewise how could any parent be critised for disciplining a child that rejects direction, and loving encouragement to pursue proper standards? Clearly, it is our perspective that is defective, not God’s.
Reply
 
 Caroline says:

 January 27, 2016 at 6:34 am
 
Scag, again I ask you which God are you talking about? There’s an awful lot of Gods who are being worshiped all over the world today and all those people worshiping those gods think they are worshiping the one and only true God. How can you prove that your God of the Bible is the true and only God? All those religions have their own idea of what is moral and what isn’t.
If you go by the Bible, you believe it’s perfectly okay to kill animals for food but another religion who doesn’t believe in the Bible, feels it’s wrong to kill animals to eat them for food. Who is right or wrong?
Maybe if you can’t prove that the Bible is really from God, then you are killing animals and could be really making the real God mad at you and you are deserving of death for that. Have you ever thought about that? The Bible does say that God is mindful of even a sparrow that dies. How would you feel if you had to kill the animals that you eat?
Pascal’s wager doesn’t mean a thing to me. Why am I supposed to be subject to your idea of who and what God is? Why am I supposed to live in fear of your God if you can’t show any real evidence of his existence?
Do you believe in a literal hell fire or do you just believe that when a person dies, they just die? I believe that if I die, then I die. If God is going to bring some kind of eternal torture or Armageddon to me for not believing in Him without any evidence of his existence, then what kind of God would that be?
I believe in being a good person and I don’t need the Bible to teach me how to be a good person. It was born in me to be a good person.
If I were to go by the God of the Hebrew Scriptures, I would think it’s perfectly okay to “own” people, just because they happened to be born to the wrong person at the wrong time. You have to remember that all the laws in the “Law” given to Moses came from God and in those laws, it was fine to sell your own children to be slaves and anybody who collected wood on the wrong day deserved to be stoned to death and if you were the daughter of a priest and were caught in prostitution, you deserved to be burned to death but the man who committed the prostitution with that girl, nothing happened to and if you said something to your parents that they didn’t like, they were to kill that child by stoning them to death. I could go on. If that is what will convince you about the character of the God of the Hebrew Scriptures, say the word and I will elaborate.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 2:31 pm
 
Everything God does has a purpose. While we have the capacity to display God’s qualities, love, mercy etc, our imperfection is an impediment to our being able to do so fully or correctly. Humans in general have a twisted view of what is moral and what isn’t. Just watch the news each night and you’ll. hear and see things that make your hair curl. Some of the things people do are beyond belief.
To illustrate this I would only need to mention one type of person whose behaviour is disgusting to God and which the bible condemns in the strongest possible way. I’ll leave it to your imagination, I won’t mention it specifically because it will unleash a tirade. But such people have managed to convince the world at large that their proclivity is natural, normal and healthy. This demonstrates the low moral standard that man has fallen to. And all of this with billions earth wide believing in a God of one kind or another. Imagine if 100% of people didn’t believe in God there would be no moral constraints whatsoever, it would be a free for all. If we accept that God made us then he has the right to dictate how we behave. He has the right to allow or permit certain things. Under what circumstances could the created ever say to the creator, I know better than you!
Reply
 
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 3:20 pm
 
The way you paint the picture the only alternative would be, turn a blind eye to everything. Let everyone do what he likes. A moral and ethical free for all. No law and order.
Using your own reasoning. Just because God has taken what appears to some to be extreme or harsh measures doesn’t make them so. It is not proof in itself that God is unjust. He looks at everything from the view point of a creator. We look at everything from the view point of the puny created being. There is no comparison.
As for your invitation to prove God exists, that would be a fruitless excercise on my part. For two reasons, 1) your mind is made up. Nothing I say or anyone else says can change your view. So why would I try? 2) this forum doesn’t allow deep theological discussion. I could even add a third reason. When discussing such controversial subjects one must divorce themselves from emotion and look at things objectively. I detect in your comments, responses driven by emotion. Now I would not argue that some emotion is not necessary, but it needs to be kept in check. It clouds the issue. A proper view of justice can be easily distorted by an impassioned appeal to emotion. This is where God has a clear advantage over us. We can’t see passed our own beliefs and prejudices. He sees the whole picture.
I will say it again just to be clear, if only to forestall an impending objection, I am not saying emotion is wrong. It has its place. Humans cannot excercise true justice unless some emotion is employed. But when justice is ruled by emotion, then we have a problem. And many of the comments here suggest that people’s first consideration is not what is right but the emotion of the situation.
If have misunderstood you I apologise unreservedly, here and now. That applies to one and all.
Reply
 
 Caroline says:

 January 27, 2016 at 4:16 pm
 
Scag, my mind isn’t made up at all. If you can show me some evidence in an almighty God, I will believe it. I am not stupid or emotional.
When we were Witnesses, we were always told that Jehovah God was present at all times and He saw everything we did and we were led to believe that and the idea that He was watching everything we did, was to keep us being good, or “God fearing” individuals.
Most people in general also believe that there is a God that is omnipresent and from everlasting to everlasting and they also believe that they are to obey their particular God and if they don’t they will also be punished somehow. They were all taught to obey their God from their religious leaders and if they don’t obey their God, then God was going to punish them too, either with an eternity in hell fire or Armageddon.
Religions work great for controlling people. Religious leaders use that fear of God (any god) to fleece their flocks of money. It isn’t so much about them being good people. It’s about the fear of God and religious leaders use that fear to control the masses.
That fear starts when kids are too young to question it so they grow up believing it and if a person or a kid speaks up and wants some evidence, they are attacked as evil and wanting to sin without any control over themselves. But all they want is some evidence so they can believe without being gullible.
Would you pay money on a car if all you had was an owner’s manual? Wouldn’t you want to see the car first and even drive it, especially if you had to put money down on it first? Only an idiot would put money down on a car without actually seeing it and driving it first. But that is the case with God. People are expected to follow that God and do what that God says, without any evidence of that God.
We were told by Watchtower that we all “need” spirituality in our lives and we believed that and that without the Bible’s standards, that people would be wicked. We were all told that we all deserved to die because we were born sinful.Babies are not born sinful. Some people become wicked but no baby is born wicked.
We were led to believe that we deserve death because Adam and Eve sinned but Jesus bought back our chance of being perfect because he “died” for us, right? Most people who believe in Christ (not just JW’s) believe the same thing.
In all countries of the world, there are tons of laws that people have come up with to make our lives work smoothly. People can do that without the use of the Bible or invoking God. All they have to do is use common sense. Humans have the ability to get along with each other without the belief that there is an invisible God watching what they do, like not stealing or killing each other.
The Bible is not a book of morals. If anything, it is filled with the most disgusting set of morals ever written down.
It is not a “good” book. There are so many stories in the Bible that are not fit to tell to kids. If you can’t tell those stories to kids, then it’s not fit to read. If it were from a perfect God, then the advice would be perfect and the advice is so far from perfect, that it’s laughable.
I am not advertising for people to be atheist. I am asking them to read their Bibles and pay attention to what it “really” says and not what they “think” it says about their God.
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 5:08 pm
 
Caroline you assume that anyone reading the Bible carefully, must conclude that God is illogical, and therefore impossible, as you have. I read the whole Bible, and paid attention to what it really says. We both know what it SAYS. We disagree about what it MEANS.
People did bad things in the Bible. But god didn’t make them do it.
Do you hate men? That would explain a lot. Your comment history indicates that you dislike authority in the hands of men.
I don’t hate women. I love women. In the next world, more than one wife would be good. Or one wife and some concubines. Or maybe just concubines and no wife. Whatever. Not too many though. I don’t want to end up like Solomon.
But if Jesus does not approve, maybe I can get by with just one.

 
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 7:00 pm
 
Hi Caroline,
If you say your mind isn’t made up, I take you at your word.
But you must admit your comments are very negative to toward God and the bible. Usually if someone is searching and hasn’t yet committed themselves to one side or the other the rhetoric isn’t quite so one sided. You paint a very black picture of the bible as a book. Not withstanding the fact that billions of people say they draw great comfort and strength from it. If it is the black book you say it is, why is it people have willing laid down their lives for it and suffered torturous deaths etc? No, I’m sorry, history clearly proves billions hold the bible in the highest regard.
 The problem therefore is not the bible, it is the way people interpret it. Many religions abuse their authority that is beyond dispute. If people or organisations are unable or unwilling to apply bible principles correctly, that is no reflection on the book or its author. We shouldn’t confuse the issues.

 
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 7:12 pm
 
Hi Caroline,
You say the bible contains the most disgusting morals ever written down. If you can’t go along with the way JWs interpret the bible that’s fine. My question is why throw out the baby with the bath water? Just because JWs got it wrong, or other religions for that matter, doesn’t negate the value of the bible or the existence of God.
It’s a bit like saying, I had a bad religious experience, therefore, there can’t be a God. These are two separate issues. One doesn’t necessarily follow the other.

 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:16 pm
 
@Scag
It’s not just atheists, there are also Christians who believe that the bible is NOT the inspired, inerrant word of god – for example, when I was in high school, my Biology teacher who was a nun stated that Catholics believe some of the accounts in the Bible to be fables and legends and stories about events that did not actually occur.
Although these Christians view the bible as not inspired, not inerrant, they see the value of Christianity as teaching mankind the importance of spirituality which makes for good human relations. Such Christians also see the value in other religions for the same reason – religion teaches mankind the importance of spirituality which makes for good human relations.

 
 
 ruthlee says:

 January 28, 2016 at 6:41 am
 
Hi caroline Ive got an take to one of your points you make. you said “would you pay money on a car if all you had was the manual wouldn’t you want to see the car and drive it first especially if you had to put the money down first only an idiot would put down money first without seeing it and actually driving it. All absolutely correct and wise comments. In uk we have a scheme for disabled people so they give up their government allowance and sort of have a car for free. Great scheme lots of choice. Ive done this scheme for years same car manufacturer after a test drive. This time round I ordered a car that hasn’t been built and I didn’t have a test drive. this was for two reasons.The car is so new they didn’t have one in the showroom and I could not be bothered because there is a “get out clause” the reason why i’m saying this is because my actions is exactly Jw reasoning. They have such smooth brains from years and years of washing they sign up for the next new light treat without even taking it for a test drive. It seems crazy when you use your point as above but it is what people do. they get comfortable and lazy minded and don’t reason wether there is a god or how unreasonable it is to kill everyone because they cannot think of better alternative. Armageddon and the killing machine that turns it is a get out clause, lazy world view because no one has to befriend all these sinners and unfortunates or attempt to help them just leave it up to the killing machine to make it all go away. (hope you didn’t mind me using your quote) cheers ruthlee

 
 
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:14 pm
 
I’m sorry Scag, but I don’t see a correlation between loving parental correction and raining down horrible death and destruction on 8 billion people simply because they failed to pray to the correct invisible person.
On Pascal’s philosophy, is it necessary to believe in God in order to live a decent, moral life? What if you live a good, clean life, but in your heart you actually still doubt the existence of God. Do you get the reward or the malediction for that?
WS
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:55 pm
 
Why such concern over 8 billion people you don’t even know. I’m concerned about ones I do know. All those people you don’t know, let God worry about them and stop fretting about it. He is the one who knows.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 28, 2016 at 11:37 am
 
“God loved the world so much…” That would be all 8-billion of them by today’s standards, right? And are we not supposed to become imitators of God?
WS
Reply
 
 
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:12 am
 
Hi WS,
Would you agree that some people are so bad that they cannot be redeemed? Those who reject God outright are among their number. I don’t say this, not even religions say this, the bible does. If we accept the bible as God’s word there is no escaping that it preaches doom and gloom for all those that fail to recognise him. With God there is only life or death. There is no other option. So if one is not for God then by default he is against him. Again I am not saying this. That is what the bible teaches regardless of which Christian religion you belong to most have a similar belief in this regard, righteous people live while the iniquitous die. It is common to most Christian religions because there is no escaping that is what the bible says. The only people who have a problem with this notion are those who don’t believe in God, because if he exists and they don’t believe in him it’s check mate. Believers know they have nothing to fear if they act out of a pure motive and display the right attitude. Even the most zealous believer will make mistakes but that doesn’t mean he can’t gain God’s approval.
Reply
 
 
 
 HAKIZIMANA J.de Dieu says:

 January 28, 2016 at 1:37 pm
 
But we have sheep and goats to give as sacrifices to please that mysterious for you are referring to. No dout you are created in his/her/its image and regrets to have created you (Genesis 6:6)!
It is high time you regreted to have created such a god with which you justify the unjustifiable. I can’t recall in the Bible where he punished Israel with Snake bites after he/she/it had killed the first born of Egypt…
Reply
 
 Caroline says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:03 pm
 
Hakizimana, that account is in Numbers chapter 21 where in verse 6 the Bible says that Jehovah sent poisonous serpents to kill the Israelites because they complained and then in verse 8, Moses was told to make a copper idol of a snake and put it on a pole so that the people would look at the snake on the pole and then live.
So, first Jehovah sends poisonous snakes to kill the Israelites and then he had Moses make an idol for them to look at so they lived.
The Israelites worshipped that pole for centuries and then in 2 Kings 18:4, Hezekiah comes along and takes the pole down. The Bible doesn’t say why he took it down though and then in John 3:14, the Bible says that “just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up.”
Interesting, huh?
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Deep Thinker says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:01 am
 
If termites are turning your house into sawdust, no one would have second thoughts in exterminating them – even if they were sentient (maybe they are).
If a higher form of life created us, maybe that is all we are to it. So we cannot judge based on our own morality.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 2:11 pm
 
This is my point in a nutshell. Who are we the termite to say to our create what you do is wrong?
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:18 pm
 
Except that is this case the termites were supposedly created by the home owner in the owner’s image and endowed with free will. A poor anology in my opinion. We are not taking about mindless insects, but rather the supposed pinacle of God’s earthly creation.
WS
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 11:07 pm
 
You’ve missed the point. Termites only in the sense that we are puny and insignificant when measured against God.
We were all given free will. It is not a reflection on God if we miss use it. Nobody puts up with a bad tenant. Why should God. You wouldn’t.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Twmack says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:56 am
 
@ Scag
 Your idea of loving discipline is extreme and unacceptable
 to a rational mind.- Sending armed soldiers to put spears
 through the bellies of pregnant women, and to dash infants
 to pieces. I just can’t make the connection.
Radicalisation, religious indoctrination is at the root of your
 thinking , under its influence, irrational thought and often
 mindless cruelty follow. History proves it.
Some think they’re doing Gods will by throwing people from
 high buildings, beheadings, and public stoning.
Cruelty cannot be dismissed or rationalised by saying God
 thinks on a higher level or the end justifies the means.
Scag if you have children I’m sure your practice of loving
 discipline is much more reasonable and benign than that
 of your chosen God. Move on from Bronze Age mentality.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 2:41 pm
 
It is not me that promotes the mass killing of anybody. The bible says that God has done so and will do so again with good reason. It’s pointless saying We disagree with this or that. If there is a God and the bible is inspired then the record clearly shows you and I cannot stop God from doing what he regards as necessary including killing. We must remember God does not kill for the sake of it. He only does so when moral imperatives are involved. And it is not upto us to say what those moral imperatives should be. Therefore, the word genocide gives the wrong impression when applied to God. The more correct term is execution of justice. Not justice as we see it, which in reality is flawed, but justice as he sees it.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:32 pm
 
This is exactly the reason why, although I accept the existence of God, I reject the idea of any specific holy book or prophet being totally from God.
“It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.” Thomas Paine
WS
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 11:10 pm
 
Why do you believe Thomas Paine was real? Why not Moses? Moses is more famous than Thomas Paine. You can’t personally verify the existence of either one. You rely on the written testimony of historians in either case.
In Thomas Paine’s day, people were still riding horses and camels, just like Moses. What’s so great about Thomas Paine.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 28, 2016 at 6:29 am
 
Red hering argumentation (something the watchtower is well known for). There was never any question raised as to whether Moses was a real person or whether Thomas Paine was real person. The question was as to whether there was any corroborative evidence that Moses parted the Red Sea. And that in turn, based on the reasoning that because the Bible says Moses parted the Red Sea, we can thus believe that God will destroy all non-believers (which is in fact circular reasoning).
WS

 
 
 
 
 
 
 David says:

 January 27, 2016 at 11:04 am
 
Cedar, I think we need a proper forum!
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 5:47 pm
 
LOL
 I feel like I’m at a tennis match, watching the ball go back & forth. We may have exhausted this topic. It’s been a great ride, though!!
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:33 pm
 
2 more days until the next “Friday Column”
Reply
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 11:16 pm
 
No, I think we got a bar brawl going here.
 LOL
Reply
 
 
 Idontknowhatodo says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:47 am
 
………and proves to me exactly why I dont believe any more… those who do seem so judgmental and cruel… like the god they worship.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 12:27 pm
 
@enuffsenuff
Thanks for your comment regarding the Great Tribulation.
 Please note that I am not endorsing the Great Tribulation (GT) as a future event; I am simply stating what the WT teaches regarding this doctrine – as I recall, the WT teaches that the GT is yet future and coincides with the reign of the beast and its image as per Revelation 13. I should have stated this in my previous comment (I’ve now done so).
Reply
 
 enuffenuff says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:38 pm
 
Dee2 thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. I made no assumptions about your personal take on this subject, only that you mentioned it and that was a good chance for me to say what I have noticed regarding the wording of Math24. I do appreciate the fact that you contribute to this site in the manner that was intended, that is, looking at what the WTS has done and teaches. Unfortunately it has slipped into almost forgetting that, and attacking God and the Bible. Psalm 2:4 makes the comment that Jehovah laughs at what amounts to a grasshopper trying to stop a locomotive. Everyone draws their own conclusions. Just back to Math24 for a moment, there is too much focus on Mathews wording and the parallel accounts of Mark and Luke should be taken into consideration as they don’t describe the GT quite like Math does. Secondly there is a parallel account at Dan 12:1 where he is told that he should “bind” up the words for some future date and the words he uses is a “TIME of great distress” not caused by Jehovah, but by humans themselves. But life goes on, and marriages and births continue despite the troubles, sound familiar? I was looking at the news today and there is a new virus spreading extremely rapidly into the US from Brazil and the whole of the America’s, and onwards overseas, abnormal weather patterns causing massive destruction, some suggesting caused by chem trails being used by Govts to “control” the weather. The 60’s song by Barry MacGuire comes to mind, “we’re on the eve of destruction”. Finally a note to thank Covert Fade for reigning in some intense comments. Take care Dee2. cheers E.
Reply
 
 
 
 david says:

 January 27, 2016 at 1:08 pm
 
You are so right.I rember all those talks and the pictures.All we can do is hope that the poor jws sitting in kingdom halls can read these coments.thanks
Reply
 
 
 Alexandria R says:

 January 27, 2016 at 6:10 pm
 
Here’s what I have to say about the debate you guys are having. God and Satan are in a pissing contest and humankind gets annoyed because they get caught in the cross fire. I feel the two deserve a spanking. Now, because I don’t like spankings. I say the two need to be separated because they’re being naughty, bad boys. I feel like I want to kick God in the butt because he should know better. He’s our father. Sense when does a father allow himself to get into a pissing contest with his child ‘creation’ only a bad, bad father does that. So God needs to take parenting classes. I say treat Satan and God like a seperation. God should have sent Satan away to another planet. Sense God is boss. Everyone ends up not knowing what to do with all of God’s consequenses. They end up with more consequenses than they know what to do with.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 7:58 pm
 
Well put.
 Let God & Satan (if they exist) duke it out amongst themselves. If God wants to destroy the wicked, that’s perfectly fine by me. Just skip all the drama please.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:03 pm
 
U say potato
 I say potAHto
 Let’s call the whole thing off
 U say tomato
 I say tomAHto
 Let’s call the whole thing off
 U say Jehovah
 I say JeWHOvah???
 Let’s call the whole thing off.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 8:15 am
 
Even if I AM killed at “Armageddon”, I still say Just skip all the drama please. In the words of Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge, “You can kick me, you can beat me, you can kill me, just don’t BORE me.”
Reply
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 6:11 pm
 
RE The idea that religious “morality” keeps us all civilized:
 1st of all, religion has been responsible for at least as much bloodshed (& thievery) as anything else.
 U can have Mobsters murdering & stealing & selling drugs all week, then go to church on Sunday & be in perfectly good standing (as long as they put some of their ill-gotten $$$ in the collection plate!!!).
 2nd of all, the #1 thing preventing murder is the law against murder.



Reply
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 7:09 pm
 
@anonymous4 says:
“in court, written testimony is not accepted”
Living witnesses are preferred, but if unavailable, the court takes what it can get. Wills, depositions, etc.
Are you going to law school? I hear the society is looking for good lawyers.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 7:25 pm
 
LOL
 Believe me, I have no interest in being a lawyer, ESPECIALLY for those scumbags!!!
Reply
 
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:00 pm
 
@Simon Kestral
“Death does threaten us all.”
Based on this comment, I get the impression that you fear death?
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 27, 2016 at 8:07 pm
 
“Fear causes hesitation. Hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true.”
Reply
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 9:05 pm
 
Fear is not my basis for faith in God. Atheists think Christians cope with fear by holding false hope in an imaginary God.
Nope. That’s not why God is real to me. The world is filled with wickedness and evil, but creation itself, the earth, sun, moon, and stars, are beautiful. Too wondrous to result from stochastic processes.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:09 pm
 
Amen
Reply
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:14 pm
 
@Simon Kestral
“The world is filled with wickedness and evil”. If I understand the comments which you have been making, god is going to destroy wicked and evil persons as well as persons who do not worship the Christian god?
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:40 pm
 
Wicked and evil, I think so. Those not worshipping, God is their judge. It’s up to him.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 dee2 (formerly dee) says:

 January 27, 2016 at 9:21 pm
 
@Scag
It’s not just atheists, there are also Christians who believe that the bible is NOT the inspired, inerrant word of god – for example, when I was in high school, my Biology teacher who was a nun stated that Catholics believe some of the accounts in the Bible to be fables and legends and stories about events that did not actually occur.
Although these Christians view the bible as not inspired, not inerrant, they see the value of Christianity as teaching mankind the importance of spirituality which makes for good human relations. Such Christians also see the value in other religions for the same reason – religion teaches mankind the importance of spirituality which makes for good human relations.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:07 pm
 
My point is that billions of people draw comfort and strength from the bible. If it’s not inspired it is one hell of a powerful book! People have been willing to burned alive just to possess one. All problems arise not from the bible itself but from the wrong interpretation of what it says. Whether some don’t view the bible as inspired is not really the point. Nobody can deny that no other book has moved people like the bible. No other book exerts the power on people’s lives that the bible has consistently done. If it was compiled by humans alone, then goodness me, these men were geniuses. And that’s putting it mildly. The bible writers were effectively the most influential men that have ever lived. They were able to achieve what nobody else has, on a scale nobody else has. To say that 40 men spread over centuries could achieve all this beggars belief. To say that a super human mind orchestrated the whole thing is the more reasonable approach.
Reply
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:13 pm
 
Paul once offered advice and said he thought he had God’s spirit. “He thought” doesn’t mean he did. It’s like the account when Peter asked about John’s future. Even Jesus close associates sometimes expanded his words beyond their actual meaning.
But taken as a whole, the Bible has ample truth to provide a solid foundation for faith in God.
Religion, on the other hand, is a mixed bag. It’s done some good, and some bad. But I don’t blame God for human abuse of free will.
Reply
 
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:36 pm
 
I read many textbooks. And many textbooks I read contain minor errors. If I rejected all books containing minor errors, I would miss a great deal of valuable knowledge.
So being a person who likes to get their money’s worth, I continue reading despite a few errors. And by the end, I’m rich.
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:40 pm
 
@dee2
 I could get onboard with that. Seems quite reasonable and logical. There are some parts of the Bible that are beautifully written and paint a truly loving creator. And the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount are better than gold.
WS
Reply
 
 Simon Kestral says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:47 pm
 
I suppose cherry picking the Bible is better than not reading it at all. Gotta start somewhere.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 Wip it says:

 January 27, 2016 at 10:10 pm
 
The more i here the more delusion i see, sad old people hanging on to a promise, the Bible says many different things about salvation, nothing like what the WT teach, & you know after Armageddon, we are going to be made perfect over the 1000 years, perfect brain, higher intellect etc, then after that they teach that many people will walk away & another destruction, genocide, to many holes for reasonable people to believe.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 8:27 am
 
LOL
 Jehovah’s Witnesses do not use their brains NOW. What are they going to do with “perfect brains”???
LOL again -Good one!
Reply
 
 
 
 GEM says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:42 am
 
@ Simon: I did ask a few days ago which I would like someone to answer.
I have read the whole of Matthew 24 so many times. I cannot see the justification to transpose the predictions beyond its original fulfilment in 66AD and 70AD.
Some did pick up on the lack of Authority to do so…but why do JW (and other) Apologists take the message out of time and context, and apply it to Our times?
I am scratching my head trying to put my question in simple terms here…..
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 5:21 am
 
Maybe you need to read Matt 24 again. Much of what is described there never happened in 70 A.D. Take a look at verses 29 onward. There are celestial phenomena spoken of there that clearly did not happen in the first century. Verse 21 onward refers to a tribulation so great that there is nothing like it before or after. Nobody could seriously suggest that what befell Jerusalem was bigger than the flood of Noah’s day or the impending Armageddon of revelation. What happened to the Jews in AD 70 was a local event with no global repercussions. It only effected a few million people at most. Jesus said in verse 34 that the generation he was talking about would not pass away until all the things he had foretold would take place. If the Jews were the generation Jesus referred to, then they perished before the celestial phenomena mentioned in verse 29 onward to place. Jesus clearly said the generation would not pass away until these things had occurred.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 8:31 am
 
So which generation is he talking about? Why is everything in the bible so cryptic?
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:37 pm
 
This refersto a future generation. In the same context Jesus speaks of returning along with his angels to gather his chosen ones. Clearly this did not happen in AD 70. If he returned in AD 70 to gather his chosen ones that would mean the resurrection took place then. Because the bible is clear in Thessalonians that when Christ comes he gathers all the dead and the living together, simultaneously.
Reply
 
 
 
 eyes opened says:

 January 28, 2016 at 9:02 am
 
@Scag
 How do you know what that celestial phenomena is supposed to be? How can you be sure it didn’t happen then. When Jesus said “this generation” it was while he was speaking with four of his disciples and they would have understood he meant them. To try to split Jesus words into different time periods is to call him a liar. Plain and simple. Besides look up the word “this” in the dictionary. Its definition clearly would identify Jesus disciples as the ones he was referring to or has the GB gotten permission to alter definitions? Luke said “these are the days for meting out justice that all the things written may be fulfilled” Luke 21:22. My understanding is that the destruction is of the wicked, not the unrighteous. Wicked and unrighteous are not the same. Also refer to the Feb 15, 2008 study Watchtower page 23, par. 11 which states “the apostles would no doubt have understood that they and their fellow disciples were to be part of the “generation” that would not pass away “until all these things would occur”. Of course the GB manage to put their modern day application to it. You can’t have it both ways. Besides to accept Jesus words in Matthew 24, is to conclude there probably aren’t any anointed since the first century. This is not mine to judge but I find that to be the logical conclusion. For a time I struggled with with these various teachings but decided I would trust Jesus words over those of men. It’s much less confusing.
Regards
Reply
 
 eyes opened says:

 January 28, 2016 at 9:09 am
 
Side point, according to the insight book, “entire inhabited earth” was a reference to the Roman empire. You’ll find several Bible accounts that support that I.e. the call for all to register, which led Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem, the prophet Agabus predicting a famine which took place in 44 ce, and even the Apostle Paul who preached to all creation. All of this makes for very interesting research.
Regards
Reply
 
 GEM says:

 January 28, 2016 at 11:35 am
 
@ eyes opened: Thank you. Exactly the point. Anything beyond a fulfilment in the first century, is pure speculation and the generation referred to those who heard his words.
WT was born of divination and numerology… masonic through and through!

 
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:57 pm
 
Matt 24:21 clearly states that the tribulation Jesus spoke of was bigger than anything previous, that includes the flood and would be on a scale never to be seen again. Nobody can argue that what happened in Jerusalem was bigger than the flood or bigger than the impending great tribulation of Revalation. This tribulation will not only eclipse the borders of the Roman Empire it will encompass the globe and it will be the final event of its type. The language is clear and specific.

 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 28, 2016 at 3:44 pm
 
I don’t know. Something like over a million Jews died in the destruction by the Romans. How many people were possibly alive to be killed at the flood? I am guessing less than a million (which is one reason to consider that the flood was not global; the lack of geological evidence is another). So perhaps the great tribulation of 70 surpassed the flood in the amount of human life lost.
WS

 
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 3:53 pm
 
Hi WS
Pardon me for saying but that’s an awful lot of guess work on your part. Let’s suppose for arguments sake you are right about the scale of the flood, AD 70 will still pale into insignificance when compared with the coming great tribulation. The scale of that will undeniably be globle.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 Caroline says:

 January 28, 2016 at 3:51 am
 
@Simon and Scag. I have read your comments to me and about me and have come to the conclusion that you are Pickled Brain reincarnated into two people and you resort to sly insults because you have met your match and can’t win intellectually but just in case I am wrong about that, I have some comments to you about your replies to my comments.
You said “why throw out the baby with the bath water? Just because the JWs got it wrong, or other religions for that matter, doesn’t negate the value of the bible or the existence of God.”
My answer to that is that the Watchtower organization “cleans” up the Bible to make it more palatable to gullible people like for instance the case of Jephthah burning his daughter as a sacrifice to Jehovah if Jephthah won a battle.
The real story is that Jephthah did kill his daughter and burned her as a sacrifice to his god Jehovah but any Witness will tell you that Jehovah God doesn’t accept human sacrifices in the Bible because the Watchtower rewrote that part of the Bible and the Witnesses don’t question their Bible.
That is why the Watchtower came up with it’s own Bible. Any scripture that they could change to make it more palatable, they did.
They had carte blanche when making up their own interpretation because Witnesses are forbidden to question it on being threatened with expulsion and shunning so they all blindly accept it as a “real” Bible.
There are many instances of this kind of misinterpretations in the New World Translation. If Witnesses read other Bibles, they’d have a fuller understanding what their “good” book really says about the God of the Bible and if they paid any attention to what it really says, they might not like that God so much, that is if it wasn’t a work of fiction, which I think it is.
So, you got it all wrong. I think the Watchtower prints a much better picture of God, then any “real” Bible does. It was the Watchtower’s rendition of God, is what made me believe in that God for fifty years.
You said my comments are “very negative toward God and the bible.” You are right that my comments are negative but my comments are negative towards the God of the Bible. It isn’t about God because I have not been shown any evidence in a God. It’s the God of the Bible that I have a problem with, if I believed the God of the Bible really did all the terrible things that the Bible says He did then I would not have a good opinion of that God.
You said: “The problem therefore is not the bible, it is the way people interpret it. Many religions abuse their authority that is beyond dispute. If people or organisations are unable or unwilling to apply bible principles correctly, that is no reflection on the book or it’s author.”
My problem with that comment from you is that it’s a good thing that people and organizations don’t apply Bible principles because if they did, we’d be killing our kids for talking back to us and we’d still be owning slaves and we’d be killing anybody who didn’t follow our religious beliefs and we’d be killing people for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week. Get the picture?
You said: “We disagree about what it (Bible) MEANS.”
My problem with that comment is that we do need to pay attention to what it says and we shouldn’t have to figure out what it means.
What you are saying with this comment is that no matter what it says, we have to figure out what it really means. Does that make any sense to a thinking person? When we have laws, we have to follow the law or we get arrested. We can’t get off by saying that a particular law didn’t really mean what it said.
The comment about me disliking male authority and how you’d like a bunch of concubines tells me that you don’t like women who disagree with you and so you insult them.
Reply
 
 eyes opened says:

 January 28, 2016 at 3:12 pm
 
@Caroline
Very interesting point about Jephthah’s daughter. According to the “Works of Josephus”, she was indeed a burnt offering. I was obviously troubled by this but I did more research and discovered some interesting tidbits. Jehovah had already promised Jephthah the victory. But Jephthah moved ahead without consulting the high priest and decided to make what is called a rash vow. Jephthah was known for hanging out with good for nothing men and human sacrifice was not a foreign idea to them. Jehovah did indeed give Jephthah the victory as he had promised but it would be a mistake to think that Jehovah approved of his child’s sacrifice. Jehovah never required it. And I suspect he found it as repulsive as we do. Jephthah is listed in Hebrews as a man of faith, I would assume it was because he trusted Jehovah would give him victory but certainly not because of his rash vow and then acting on it.
Regards
Reply
 
 
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:49 am
 
The point is, it is not genocide when God does it. It is divine retribution. Who has the right to criticise God? Only those who have no fear of God would dare to challenge his sovereign right to do whatever he likes. To say that the Grand Creator himself is acting unjustly by destroying those he created is an untenable position. One can jump up and down and protest all day long but in the end you’re just digging your own grave. God is not bound by our warped idea of what constitutes injustice or cruelty. Almighty means just that, almighty. No man can even look upon God and live. And yet some have the audacity to question his actions. That’s either very gutsy or very stupid or both. It’s like ants complaining that humans continually step on them indiscriminately. Such a complaint would not resonate in the slightest. The whole notion of questioning the actions of an Almighty God is self contradictory.
Reply
 
 Caroline says:

 January 28, 2016 at 5:39 am
 
Scag, again I ask you, what God are you referring to? Is it the God of the Bible? How can you prove that the Bible (any Bible interpretation) is from God?
How can a person believe it, if you can’t prove it to be from the God who made you and me and all the earth and everything on it and the universe since there are no original manuscripts to compare our Bibles to? If the Bible was from a perfect God, then it would be perfect and all the “advice” and “laws” in it would be perfect and should stand the test of time and be upheld today as it was when it was written.
Reply
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 28, 2016 at 1:25 pm
 
I seem to recall that at one point in a bible story God was dead set on wiping all the Israelites off the surface of the ground. But then Moses objected to this and apparently reasoned with God about it. Did God condemn and execute Moses in his blazing anger for questioning his divine authority? Not according to the scriptures. Instead, God conceded Moses’ point and apparently changed his mind about executing Israel. Apparently Moses had the right to criticize God.
There is nothing wrong with questioning the rightness of an action by an authority figure. It is even expected of us, being created in God’s image and having a God-given sense of justice.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
WS
Reply
 
 Caroline says:

 January 28, 2016 at 1:48 pm
 
Winston, I am not sure that Jehovah didn’t have Moses killed because he took credit for producing water without giving the credit to Jehovah, according to Deuteronomy 34:4, 7:
“After that Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Moab at the order of Jehovah….(7) And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old at his death. His eye had not grown dim, and his vital strength had not fled.”
When the Bible says “at the order of Jehovah”, that implies that he was killed on purpose and that he didn’t die a natural death.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:27 pm
 
Interesting. Sounds like he was divinely executed for the heinous crime of forgetting to say “Thank you”.
Reply
 
 
 
 
 
 Covert Fade says:

 January 28, 2016 at 6:24 am
 
Moderators note:
This has been for the most part a good discussion, with many commenters making their points and having chance to defend them over the past seven days. I feel it is thus time to move on.
From this point onwards please consider the normal site rules back in force. Posts that do not comply will be deleted without explanation.
Thank you to everyone who contributed.
Reply
 
 
 Twmack says:

 January 28, 2016 at 6:58 am
 
Interesting debate. As expected only the God lot can
 find justification for mass killing.
@Scag, “No man can even look upon God and live”.
You say.
 Well that depends on which verses you read and what
 point you want to make. Ex, 33:11. Moses spoke to God
 face to face as one man speaks to another.
No time or inclination to list the hundred or more other
 contradictions in “Gods Word”. I know when I’m pushing
 water uphill.
Reply
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 3:06 pm
 
Exodus 33:20, is a simple statement. No interpretation required. No one can see God and live. So all reference to people seeing God must be understood metaphorically. They see god’s glory, his power in action etc. in this way they are said to see God. Even Moses who came closer than anyone to seeing God had to be shielded and protected from God’s brilliance and power. Just read your bible it’s all there. But in the strict sense the scriptures are clear no one can see God.
Reply
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 8:53 am
 
@ Caroline
Holy Mother of Jehovah! I never knew that about the Jephthah story! We were all taught that she simply spent the rest of her life in service at the temple or whatever, & had to keep her virginity.(FYI the NWT uses the word “banished”.) I never knew the Watchtower Brainwashing & Trickery Society actually ALTERED the BIBLE!!! Makes me wonder, if them, then WHO ELSE??? Thank you for that info – The Truth about the “Truth”!!!
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 8:58 am
 
To specify, the NWT does have the J-man promising to “Jehovah” the burnt sacrifice thing, then he later says “banished”, with no explanation for the change. Interesting how they just slipped it in there. Sort of like a snake…
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 9:55 am
 
I was so shocked ’cause I remember the Watchtower Snakes going on & on about how carefully & meticulously the Bible has been translated & rewritten over the millennia, scribes counting every word & so on. Yeah right. What a load of poodle piss.
Reply
 
 
 Scag says:

 January 28, 2016 at 3:15 pm
 
This is a totally false statement. The older edition and the current edition of the NWT both use the term burnt offering. Judges 11:31. I can’t find any reference to banishment. The NWT simply says he carried out his vow. V. 39. The implication is clear he sacrificed his daughter. There is no ambiguity. We really need to get our facts right.
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 28, 2016 at 5:08 pm
 
I learned this story from My Book of Bible Stories, which I had nearly memorized as a child. There it said that Jephthah’s daughter went to serve at the tabernacle and the women of the land would go and visit her each year and encourage her. That appears to be the Watchtower’s official teaching. Perhaps that is where the confusion comes from.
WS
Reply
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 28, 2016 at 5:12 pm
 
Here is the link to the story I the bible story book. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-stories/3/jephthahs-daughter/

 
 
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 9:08 am
 
@ Simon
I totally appreciate your reasons for believing in God. But wouldn’t u agree that an awful lot of people believe out of fear? – Probably more out of fear of MAN than fear of God!
 I mean, u have Muslims concentrated in certain areas, Christians concentrated in certain areas, & how many Buddhists live in Israel? lol People in general are simply terrified of going against the grain.
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 9:12 am
 
Nothing against Jews, but I’m not Jewish, so why would I serve Jewhovah?
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 9:28 am
 
If there is gonna b an Armageddon, u gotta know Jehovah’s Witnesses will be the 1st to go. They constantly misrepresent the Creator, they say the bible is from Him & then alter it to suit themselves, they LIE, LIE, LIE, they protect & shelter & apologize for the lowest kind of criminals, sometimes LITERALLY hiding them from the police, they offer up their own children in ‘sacrifice’ to their cult gods, like Satanists, their love turns on a dime to hate as soon as someone is found not toeing the Party line, they claim to be “no part of this world”, then join the United Nations after condemning others for leading a double life, they claim Charity status & protection but never do anything for anyone but themselves, they proclaim how much they have done for religious freedom yet persecute their own family members & others among them who do not toe the Party line, etc, etc, etc. Man, if I was God, & I was gonna go all Armageddon, I would zap them 1st.
Reply
 
 
 Pow says:

 January 28, 2016 at 10:04 am
 
We’ll be fighting in the streets
 With our children at our feet
 And the morals that they worship will be gone
 And the men who spurred us on
 Sit in judgement of all wrong
 They decide and the shotgun sings the song
I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
 Take a bow for the new revolution
 Smile and grin at the change all around
 Pick up my guitar and play
 Just like yesterday
 Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
 We don’t get fooled again…….
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 10:41 am
 
Funny how the Watchtower Snakes use the concept of conscience to coerce their members. Like, “Train your conscience in this way or that way”, which basically is Newspeak for “Program your brain to do what we tell you”.
…or else, u’re a bad person, we won’t talk to u anymore, & u’ll die at Armageddon…
Reply
 
 
 Juli says:

 January 28, 2016 at 10:45 am
 
Fantastic article. When I think about all of the children that are mentally abused by the fear tactics used by this cult, I get sick. Tony’s human hot dog talk is the most evil thing I’ve ever heard. What a sadistic animal he is. Why is this abuse legal?
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:05 pm
 
“Why is this abuse legal?”
SUPERAWESOME EXCELLENT QUESTION – & 1 a lot of folks have been asking for a long, long time!!!
 Remember, though, 1 reason is that the Watchtower Snakes have 1 face for their members, & another for the public!!!
Reply
 
 
 
 Winston Smith says:

 January 28, 2016 at 10:58 am
 
One of the commenters raised the following question: What’s So Great About Thomas Paine?
 Without getting sucked into a complete tangent from the primary discussion, I wanted to provide some level of background for why I frequently quote his works. I don’t think the original commenter really cares about the answer to this question, as it seemed like a source of distractionary argumentation. I apologize for the length of this comment, it is as short as I could make it in order to do it justice. I have several links to my source information, so I hope this is not too much. CF, is this is too long or seems to be too off topic, feel free to delete it and I won’t be offended – WS.
Thomas Paine was an English-American political activist, philosopher, political theorist, and revolutionary. Considered one of the founding fathers of the United States he wrote two pamphlets that inspired the Colonists to declare independence from Britain in 1776. He was also active in the French Revolution, during which he authored the “Rights of Man.” In his pamphlet “The Age of Reason” he advocated deism, promoted reason and free thought, and argued against institutionalized religion in general (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine).
Paine’s theories and proposals found their basis in “The Enlightenment,” a philosophical era that “dominated the world of ideas in Europe in the 18th century. The principal goals of Enlightenment thinkers were liberty, progress, reason, tolerance, fraternity, and ending the abuses of the church and state.” The Enlightenment era was closely connected to the scientific revolution. Other major figures of the Enlightenment included: “Cesare Beccaria, Voltaire, Denis Diderot, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, David Hume, Adam Smith, and Immanuel Kant” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment).
Paine suffered much criticism for his writing of “The Age of Reason.” So much so, that his close friend and contemporary, Thomas Jefferson, convinced him to delay the release of his third part of the pamphlet for 5 years. Jefferson, himself a Deist, feared “unpleasant and even violent reprisals” associated with Paine’s work. The basic thesis of Paine’s pamphlet can be gleaned from the opening of part I:
““ I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.””
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason)
Deism is a “theological/philosophical position that combines the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge with the conclusion that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a single creator of the universe” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism). Thomas Paine considered himself a Deist, as did his aforementioned contemporary Thomas Jefferson. Some other well-known historical figures who identified with this philosophy include: Abraham Lincoln, Albert Einstein, Adam Smith, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, George Washington, Mark Twain, Matthew Tindal, Max Planck, Neil Armstrong, Paul Davies, Robert Hooke, Thomas Edison, and Voltaire. See full listing at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deists.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:00 pm
 
WOW. Powerful stuff. It’s great to see people can say so much without taking up volumes & volumes & volumes.
Reply
 
 
 
 Pow says:

 January 28, 2016 at 11:35 am
 
It would be nice to get a little confirmation of what of 10, 000 sects of Christidom is right, or whatever else is right…I mean , sure the miracle of the floating axe head was cool since it was borrowed, staffs turning to snakes, memorable , water into wine (don’t want to rain on a parade ) nice wedding present, frying a tree (talk about the original weed killer) overnight, bottomless flour jars, relocating city gates, out of season lighting and thunder storms, hailstones, frogs…ect…maybe we could get something like this today…perhaps the parting of Hudson River, or miraculous light/cloud over warwick day and night..but, it seems were left to make decisions based on our power of reason. …which leaves alot of questions? ???
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:11 pm
 
“Maybe we could get something like this today”
LOL
 Good luck with that. No, all miracles happened in the distant PAST. When, oddly enuff, there were no cell phones, cameras, videocams, recording devices of any kind. Convenient.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:14 pm
 
…unless u consider a typhoon that dumps a load of sand in front of a kingdom hall, a miracle…lmfao
Reply
 
 Pow says:

 January 28, 2016 at 2:53 pm
 
I thought it was getting a state of the art television studio, is a modern day miracle. Or winning a lawsuit against a child molestation victim.
Reply
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:04 pm
 
Yeah, that’s what they’re praying for. I don’t think God is listening.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:10 pm
 
Here’s an interesting take on what the world might be like without Christianity.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=family+guy+multiverse+-+no+christianity
Reply
 
 
 anonymous4 says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:39 pm
 
So, if someone dies of a heart attack 1 minute B4 Armageddon, they get resurrected. If they live 1 more minute & get “removed”, they’re finished. What if they live to Armageddon, & have a heart attack seeing Jesus riding down out of heaven on a flaming horse, with a sword sticking out of his mouth? Does that count as final judgment, or does that person get resurrected ’cause they died of natural causes? I need a break. Switching to youtube for another episode of Ultimate Force.
Reply
 
 
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The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
avatar 
Posted on January 22, 2016

The worldview of Jehovah's Witnesses revolves around Armageddon
The worldview of Jehovah’s Witnesses revolves around Armageddon

When I was a Jehovah’s Witness, I didn’t like to talk about Armageddon.
Don’t get me wrong, I loved to talk about the paradise. Who wouldn’t? I’d cheerfully tell anyone who asked, be they householder, interested person at the meetings, or curious workmate, about the awesome future that awaited. I’d talk about a world free from war, free from crime, full of incredible adventures that a peaceful, united human race would enjoy forever.
But when people asked how God would achieve this, I found myself getting a little vague and fuzzy about the details.
I mean, how do you say: “Well, first God needs to kill you and everyone you love, unless of course you fancy converting?” without making yourself look like a bit of a extremist loon?
I remember sitting in District Conventions, when the speaker would be holding forth with sound and fury on the subject of how God’s wrath would soon consume all those who failed to serve him. I would glance guiltily across at any “worldly” people who happened to be in the stadium, like the security guys, or the people working the concession stands. I’d feel like walking over to them and saying; “Don’t worry, he’s not talking about you, or your family or friends,” but I couldn’t, because he was.
I knew very well that unless they became Jehovah’s Witnesses, they were dead men and women walking.
Armageddon: An act of justice?
Let’s take a second to actually analyse the Watchtower’s teachings on Armageddon. It is presented by Watchtower as the war that Jehovah God will soon use to remove all of the Earth’s governments, and most of the Earth’s population, and install his own brand of rulership on the planet. He will fight it with his spiritual armies of angels, with his son Jesus leading the charge. He will have no need of human help, so Jehovah’s Witnesses will not be involved in any actual combat. Their role will simply be to stand and watch.
Who will survive? Well it depends who you ask. Or more correctly, it depends on who you are when you ask.
If you are a member of the public asking this question, you’ll probably get the answer: “That’s for God to decide. Only Jehovah can read a person’s heart. We don’t know who will survive and who won’t.” Take for example the FAQ on this subject from Watchtower’s official website JW. org. (Bold is mine.)

Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Additionally, many now living may yet begin to serve God, and they too will gain salvation. In any case, it’s not our job to judge who will or won’t be saved. That assignment rests squarely in Jesus’ hands.
Well, that sounds okay on the surface. Maybe I can just live a good life, treat my neighbour well, and Jesus will read my heart, see that I’m basically a loving, kind man and I’ll be spared?
No. Because this isn’t the answer Watchtower gives behind the scenes to an indoctrinated Jehovah’s Witness. Here are some examples of what Watchtower has said about Armageddon in other publications, with even more examples available at jwfacts.com (Bold has been added)

“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.” Watchtower 1989 Sep 1 p.19
“During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known Gods righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.”  Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 “Are You Prepared for Survival?”
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
So it’s pretty definitive. While Watchtower tries to spin the doctrine to the general public that “all sorts of people might in theory survive Armageddon” the actual message in-house is that unless you are a practicing Jehovah’s Witness, you are toast.
Contemplate that for a while. Watchtower’s doctrine is that everyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness will be killed, no matter how loving, how kind, how selfless they are in other areas of their life. They could have spent their life in Medicine Sans Frontiers, selflessly dedicating themselves to providing medical care to fellow human beings in some of the worst places on Earth, whereas a Jehovah’s Witness may have simply worked as an IT engineer in a comfortable office, and never really helped anyone much.
But come Armageddon, it would be the Jehovah’s Witness who would survive, and the selfless medic who would die screaming.
To summarise, the non-Witness population of the planet would undergo a systematic slaughter of every single man woman and child. There is a name for the systematic killing of a civilian population solely for the purpose of extermination.
Genocide.
The ethics of genocide
You don’t have to use your imagination to see what Armageddon would look like. Human history is replete with examples of genocide. To glimpse the future that a “loving” God will being, look to the concentration camps of World War II. Look to the mass graves and “ethnic cleansing” in the Balkans, or the hacking to death of vast scores of Tutsi and moderate Hutu by the Hutu majority in Rwanda.
Or look on the news reports right now at the work of ISIS in the Middle East, who are currently engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the Yazidi people.
Now, it goes without saying that 99% of Jehovah’s Witness are no doubt just as horrified as everyone else when they see the awful genocide that the so-called Islamic State are currently committing against the Yazidi population. The wholesale slaughter of men women and children, often in gruesome and sadistic ways, is an appalling crime that has brought universal condemnation from the international community and revulsion from anyone with even a halfway decent moral code.
Yet these men, women and children being slaughtered at the hands of ISIS, are the very same men, women and children who would be slaughtered at the hands of Jehovah if he brought Armageddon today, a slaughter the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be obligated to support and celebrate as a righteous act.
And it’s not like the slaughter would be any more humane; Watchtower does not teach that Jehovah will painlessly disintegrate his victims or cause them to simply fall asleep in quick, merciful death as would arguably be within his power to enact. No, Watchtower portrays this event as a violent holocaust, with people being crushed, burned and mutilated in a manner of which the sadists of ISIS would surely approve.
To prove this point, let’s take a look at some Watchower artwork depicting the event.
armageddon-1982-enjoy-life-p28
Ageddon Feature Image
WatchtowerArmageddon2003learnfromgreatteacher_p243
Watchtower Armageddon 1988revelation
WatchtowerArmageddon1997WT0901
This is just a small sample of art produced by Watchtower to demonstrate what they believe Armageddon will look like. A whirlwind of terror and grisly violent death unleashed against a powerless and unsuspecting civilian population.
If you’re still in any doubt, listen to Governing Body Member Tony Morris, one of Watchtower’s seven leading men, hold forth on how those God kills will burn and split open like hotdogs.
Even worse, according to Watchtower theology, those who die before Armageddon will almost certainly be resurrected into God’s New World in order to have a second chance, whereas those who die at his hands at Armageddon are eternally destroyed. Remember that Watchtower FAQ quoted earlier in the article?

Many millions who lived in centuries past and who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses will have an opportunity for salvation. The Bible explains that in God’s promised new world, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Why do I say “even worse?” Because this teaching creates an horrific moral loophole. If Witnesses take their theology to its logical conclusion, they should be celebrating the deaths of “worldly” people at the hands of killers like ISIS, for those “worldly” people at least have a chance of resurrection in the new world, whereas if they escape the ISIS sadists but then die at Armageddon, they are doomed forever.
Again, to stress, 99% of Witnesses would be horrified if one of their number suggested this.
An elder who gave a talk from a Kingdom Hall platform stating that Christians should rejoice in the death of worldly people, and that groups like ISIS were doing the people they killed a favour by sending them en-mass to Paradise via the loophole of pre-armageddon death, would appall his audience, probably have his microphone muted, be hauled off the platform and into a back-room, be given a savage dressing down by the rest of the elders, and would probably not allowed to give another talk for a very long time.
Yet this theoretical Elder’s logic, whilst horrifying and unacceptable to most Witnesses, is a correct reading of the logical end consequence of Watchtower doctrine.
Genocide is always genocide
The more I came to realise what the Armageddon doctrine actually entailed, the more I came to fear there might be something horribly wrong with the Organisation I was supporting and the doctrine it promoted. Were such a violent act to be committed by a human organisation or movement, I would be revolted, and condemn it for the vile act of barbarism it was.
So how did it suddenly become acceptable if the very same people were slaughtered by a deity who claimed to be the very essence of love? Billions of defenceless men, women and children, all killed horribly because they were not convinced that a slightly obscure and insignificant religion that occasionally knocked on their door, or stood silently next to carts full of wafer-thin magazines, was actually the One True Faith?
Like many before me, I increasingly found my conscience could not support the teachings Watchtower promoted.
Like many before me, I came to properly research my beliefs, and thus realised that the teachings Watchtower promoted were often not even in harmony with the Bible.
And in time, like many before me, I left the Watchtower religion. In a way, Armageddon set me free.
Just not quite in the way Watchtower had intended.
 
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481 Responses to The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon

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 eyes opened says:

 January 28, 2016 at 4:55 pm
 
Earlier Scag made mention of Matt. 24:21 about the great tribulation. An interesting verse. It simply says a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning nor will occur again. It is a notable occurrence, a great tribulation. But no where does the Bible say it was the greatest or the worst. It was simply note worthy and again Jesus was specific about which generation would be alive to see it. Regards
Reply
 
 
 enuffenuff says:

 January 28, 2016 at 5:09 pm
 
I notice the comment comes up frequently “how do we know God exists”? The answer is of course there is a written record. But some will say there is none of the original notes by the writers. If this argument continues then what happens to ALL written records no matter who has written them if the writer and their contemporaries are dead? If you do this then you throw all written records into the cesspool of doubt. One should take things on good faith, until otherwise known. Two simple examples, is there any manuscripts personally written by Josephus in existence? I don’t think so. Legitimately how can you refer to him since their is no living proof of his existence? Second example, Shakespeare. There are some people who don’t believe Shakespeare existed. Others do. But someone wrote those works in that name. The adroit people examine the works to see whether the works exhibit wisdom and are worth reading. I think Shakespeare’s and Flavius Josephus’s written works are worth reading as I do God’s written works. The WTS and its written works are getting shaky these days, but all is in the reader with a mind of discernment.
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16 Responses to Videos

 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
 
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
Reply
 
 
 george says:

 August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
 
Sorry Cedars, I can only access the first video on my I pad. There are a lot of over sized play icons and they won’t work.
Reply
 
 
 Luke says:

 October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
 
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
 cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
 will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
Reply
 
 
 Fred says:

 November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
 
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
Reply
 
 
 Palma says:

 February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
 
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
 I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
 What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
Reply
 
 
 Idris says:

 March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
 
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
 Keep up the good work
Reply
 
 
 Julia Orwell says:

 July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
 
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
 I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
Reply
 
 
 frankie fernandez says:

 February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
 
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
Reply
 
 Holy Connoli says:

 November 17, 2015 at 1:14 am
 
Frankie.If I were you I would turn him into the police now even though it may have been several years ago he committed this crime. Many sexual predators get turned in years later after the crime is reveled. At the very least he will be investigated and his Name will be mud for being a creep.
 He deserves it and so does the WT for its NON protection of the flock and not caring for the victim but only their phony reputation.
Reply
 
 
 
 Kirtley W. Burggraf says:

 March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
 
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
Reply
 
 
 Alone in MD says:

 March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
 
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
Reply
 
 
 frankie fernandez says:

 May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
 
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
Reply
 
 
 pj wilcox says:

 July 31, 2015 at 3:21 am
 
I watched the latest video of the inept elder being questioned by the commission. Who prepared this man for testimony? You all are aware of the dentist who shot Cecil the lion in Kenya? Well his life is over. He is in hiding. What he did ,did not break laws in Kenya and his is in a world of trouble with public sentiment. But this elder being questioned is far worse. He covered deeds that drove people to think of killing themselves. Should he not go into hiding? Is his life over? Has he know conscience? Emotion, caring? You know the answer. Bet ya, damage control is working overtime on this.
Reply
 
 
 Adrian says:

 September 8, 2015 at 3:32 am
 
I think the Royal Commission videos demonstrate that fragility of the governance within the WT society. Yes, it’s an Australia branch issue but cross examination only points to the seat of control on which the governing body members sit. Everything starts and stops with the governing body, they set the policy but where are they? Sitting comfortably in NY watching from a distance ready to abdicate any responsibility whatsoever. A governing body governs and leads but I see no leadership I see the followers talking and being bashed around the head with questions, all too easy for the legal team.
However, it might just be me but does anyone else not see the lawyer’s gap in knowledge regarding the fundamental rationale for the WT society policies, they fall back in their comfort zone knowing that they can say ‘well we don’t have the authority to go beyond the bible.’
It’s this gap in knowledge of the legal representatives which the WT society exploit. I mean nobody is going to ask ‘ where actually did this translation come from anyway?’ What were the academic qualifications of the translators? Is there a possibility that you have interpreted things wrongly or even worse, translated things incorrectly? If there’s a possibility that your interpretation on how to deal with modern day child abuse cases in congregations may be flawed, then are you in agreement that your policies could result in lasting harm to victims of abuse? In my view that translation is the ‘elephant in the room’ every scholar knows it’s perverse but no one is holding this cult to account. So easy to say it’s all in the bible but should they really be saying it’s all in the NWT instead?
The WT society in the videos almost give of an innocence as if to say, ‘ but that’s what we understand from the scriptures’, and I think it works in their favor, but a savvy legal representative would do well to tease out the basis for the rendering of certain verses on which doctrine, policy and organisational decisions are based. So far the WT Society appears to be one step ahead because their authority is not a person but a book, which they are ‘only trying to understand and live by’. Expose the origin of the NWT and the basis for so many ridiculous uncaring decisions is called into question.
Reply
 
 
 Rick Viger says:

 November 10, 2015 at 3:26 pm
 
Thanks John for all you do with your videos.
 I’m an ex JW for 40 years now. I hope your videos reach some witnesses and make them think. For all of you that have left Watchtower remember you made the right decision.
Reply
 
 
 S.T. says:

 November 24, 2015 at 9:48 pm
 
I was wondering if anyone has heard that Jehovah’s witnesses are telling there congregations that the end of this system could have only hours left? My sister who is a Jehovah’s Witness said they are preaching this at the congregations. Has anyone else heard this?
Reply
 
 
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◾Winston Smith on The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
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◾Winston Smith on The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
◾eyes opened on The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon

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4h
 Secularism UK   @NatSecSoc 
We recommend going to see Spotlight. See our preview and the trailer here: https://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2016/01/spotlight--this-hard-hitting-film-salutes-the-journalists-who-exposed-the-power-of-a-deeply-corrupt-institution … pic.twitter.com/dSzINgt7t3

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12h
 Catholic Herald   @CatholicHerald 
#Spotlight director Tom McCarthy on why Catholics shouldn't be afraid to see his film http://buff.ly/1JHqDnu  pic.twitter.com/5ASUm2pOKv

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27 Jan
 Ex-Muslims Forum   @CEMB_forum 
We got sick of ppl using apostasy & blasphemy stigma against us. We embrace it & challenge their presumptions. @mirriam71 @rooneze2 @nafeezi

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27 Jan
 Nicolaou   @undubbed 
Jehovah's Witnesses video slammed over threats to kids - NY Daily News http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/jehovah-witnesses-video-slammed-threats-kids-article-1.2116873?cid=bitly …

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25 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
Irony is a Facebook group called "Richard Dawkins" that doesn't let you criticize religion. @RichardDawkins

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25 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
6,000+ subscribers on my channel - amazing! Thanks to all of you for giving me a platform.

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24 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
I'm sure Cain will be gutted when he learns he wasn't the first to commit murder... https://www.sciencenews.org/article/attack-10000-years-ago-earliest-known-act-warfare …

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24 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
Thankfully God sprang to the rescue by creating Adam 4,000 years later... https://www.sciencenews.org/article/attack-10000-years-ago-earliest-known-act-warfare …

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22 Jan
 AvoidJW.org   @avoidjw_org 
Jehovah's Witnesses are appalled when they see people massacred in wars but they expect most to be massacred by God: http://jwsurvey.org/publications/the-friday-column-watchtower-genocide-and-armageddon …

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22 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
A brilliant must-read piece on the Jehovah's Witness interpretation of genocide... http://jwsurvey.org/publications/the-friday-column-watchtower-genocide-and-armageddon …



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21 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
The winds of change are blowing at JWsurvey... http://wp.me/p1TWXJ-2kA



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20 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
Changes are afoot with JWsurvey. Stay tuned for an article tomorrow!

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20 Jan
 AO Advocates   @AOAdvocates 
A new online service aimed at tackling child abuse has been launched today by the Rotherham MP @SarahChampionMP #CSA http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/story/2016-01-19/new-initiative-to-help-stop-child-abuse/ …

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20 Jan
 Susannah JW Reporter   @JWReport 
#Watchtower sues #Vyborg #Russian #customs for not letting in #apostate bibles #moneytoburnhttp://jwsurvey.org/news/watchtower-files-lawsuit-against-vyborg-customs-in-russia …

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20 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
Bizarre goings-on in Russia, where Watchtower is fighting to import non-NWT bibles... http://wp.me/p1TWXJ-2kg



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18 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
It's encouraging to see @ChtyCommission taking a firm stance on misconduct and mismanagement... https://twitter.com/ChtyCommission/status/689034615332425729 …

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17 Jan
 Richard Dawkins        ✔   @RichardDawkins 
@marrenefranich It's sad to be shunned by family.

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17 Jan
 Suzie Best   @SuzieQutzie 
@cedarsjwsurvey @RichardDawkins Yep and the #ExclusiveBrethren now #PBCC have also been shunning apostates including family since the 1960's

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17 Jan
 Lloyd Evans   @cedarsjwsurvey 
If I have to choose between listening to JWs, and listening to exJW anti-activists, I would go for listening to JWs every time.

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16 Jan
 Reveal        ✔   @reveal 
Jehovah’s Witnesses used an “abusive tactic” to delay a child abuse trial, judges rule: http://ow.ly/X8v2e  pic.twitter.com/0t0yDJIZxG

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