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Link Please—For Church Essay Admitting JS Married Young Girls/Other Men’s Wives
Posted: 19 March 2016 01:05 PM [ Ignore ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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The link I am finding on LDS.org is not the original essay. Wrong essay or did they change it? Does anyone have the original?
Thanks!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 19 March 2016 01:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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LostInParadise
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So this is different from what they originally put out?
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
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Once mormon, twice shy.
Posted: 19 March 2016 07:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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LostInParadise:
So this is different from what they originally put out?
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
Seems like I remember something about changes--but not sure. Others on here know--I am certain. I could be wrong but I thought the first one mentioned Joseph Smith marrying a number of teenage wives, and I remember there was a sentence that said something like he probably had sex with some of them--might have referred to the other men's wives. I also remember the author saying--near the end-- something about we don't know why god commanded him to do this--only that he did. I thougt that was one of the most sickening parts. They take no responsiblity to say this was wrong.
Could I be thinking of another essay? I know some on here have the answers.
Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 20 March 2016 07:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Jon Marshall
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I am sure it is saved somewhere online where the real version of the Essay is.
I love how they keep stating that the Women would still defend the Church and JS. Of course they would, even if they stopped believing i am sure they had some form of "Stockholm syndrome" going on.
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Posted: 20 March 2016 07:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
jellybean
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If I remember correctly the first one only addressed the age of one of the wives as being 14, and then proceeded to justify it as "normal in that time period". I don't remember them addressing the polandry part at all. Edit: It mentioned it, but as I remember they didn't talk about the marriages being kept secret from the husbands.
Posted: 20 March 2016 08:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Unfortunately what I found that I had saved was this same link. I may have the entire essay--not sure what I saved it under. I remember something about "and he probably had sex with some of them." I remember thinking they were white washing with the "probably." Please let me know if anyone finds this. I will keep looking.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 20 March 2016 10:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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The essay as currently written is how I remembered it initially. You may be conflating it with something else you read. Don't forget, the original essay left out much of the true history, probably because it wasn't faith promoting.
To be certain, go to mormonthink.com and look for their response to the essay.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 20 March 2016 12:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Tessa
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To "buy" those essays from Deseret Book is highly prohibitive, due to the price of those volumes....they're publishing all of Joseph Smith's writings, essays etc. If memory serves it was $50 for the first book and each were the same price. It will take them sometime to get them all available.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 20 March 2016 12:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Tessa
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https://deseretbook.com/p/joseph-smith-papers-journals-vol-1-1832-1839-dean-c-jessee-67533?variant_id=32645-hardcover
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 20 March 2016 12:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Tessa
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https://deseretbook.com/p/joseph-smith-papers-revelations-translations-vol-2-published-dean-c-jessee-76847?variant_id=21793-hardcover Notice they lowered the price from $70 to $40...but by the time you've invested in these things...it's a big chunk out of your food budget.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 20 March 2016 05:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Tessa:https://deseretbook.com/p/joseph-smith-papers-revelations-translations-vol-2-published-dean-c-jessee-76847?variant_id=21793-hardcover Notice they lowered the price from $70 to $40...but by the time you've invested in these things...it's a big chunk out of your food budget.
Where have you been Tessa? Haven't seen you in a while. We missed you!
Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 21 March 2016 07:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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MormonThink
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Joined 2012-11-28
Matter Unorganized:
The essay as currently written is how I remembered it initially. You may be conflating it with something else you read. Don't forget, the original essay left out much of the true history, probably because it wasn't faith promoting.
To be certain, go to mormonthink.com and look for their response to the essay.
Here's MT's response to the original essay:
http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo.htm
I'm pretty sure it did not say 'probably' just 'possibility'.
Posted: 21 March 2016 08:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
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Joined 2010-05-22
MormonThink:
Matter Unorganized:
The essay as currently written is how I remembered it initially. You may be conflating it with something else you read. Don't forget, the original essay left out much of the true history, probably because it wasn't faith promoting.
To be certain, go to mormonthink.com and look for their response to the essay.
Here's MT's response to the original essay:
http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo.htm
I'm pretty sure it did not say 'probably' just 'possibility'.
Thank you so much Mormon Think! Having WWIII with my TBM family on FB. "Possibly" works too. I did post yesterday that if they ever wanted true history of the church--to go to MormonThink.com. Suprised how much I was able to get out there. I so appreciate--from the bottom of my heart--a site like yours to send anyone to and assure them they will find accurate and factual info there. Thanks so much!
Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 22 March 2016 02:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Tessa
Long Timer
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Joined 2008-08-12
I check in once in awhile....thanks for missing me.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 22 March 2016 02:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
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Joined 2010-05-22
Tessa:
I check in once in awhile....thanks for missing me.
Of course we do.
Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 22 March 2016 06:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
Free2Live
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2012-09-01
Strong Free & Thankful:
MormonThink:
Matter Unorganized:
The essay as currently written is how I remembered it initially. You may be conflating it with something else you read. Don't forget, the original essay left out much of the true history, probably because it wasn't faith promoting.
To be certain, go to mormonthink.com and look for their response to the essay.
Here's MT's response to the original essay:
http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo.htm
I'm pretty sure it did not say 'probably' just 'possibility'.
Thank you so much Mormon Think! Having WWIII with my TBM family on FB. "Possibly" works too. I did post yesterday that if they ever wanted true history of the church--to go to MormonThink.com. Suprised how much I was able to get out there. I so appreciate--from the bottom of my heart--a site like yours to send anyone to and assure them they will find accurate and factual info there. Thanks so much!
Awesome! You own your own life and are taking charge of it.
Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 23 March 2016 11:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2010-05-22
FreeLive:
Strong Free & Thankful:
MormonThink:
Matter Unorganized:
The essay as currently written is how I remembered it initially. You may be conflating it with something else you read. Don't forget, the original essay left out much of the true history, probably because it wasn't faith promoting.
To be certain, go to mormonthink.com and look for their response to the essay.
Here's MT's response to the original essay:
http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo.htm
I'm pretty sure it did not say 'probably' just 'possibility'.
Thank you so much Mormon Think! Having WWIII with my TBM family on FB. "Possibly" works too. I did post yesterday that if they ever wanted true history of the church--to go to MormonThink.com. Suprised how much I was able to get out there. I so appreciate--from the bottom of my heart--a site like yours to send anyone to and assure them they will find accurate and factual info there. Thanks so much!
Awesome! You own your own life and are taking charge of it.
Two have told me off but I see that most have hung in there. I still plan to post some of the conversations here later. I think they might have shelves now and maybe a little weight on them. Being on the side of real truth is an awesome feeling! A woman who was married to my TBM, member of the bishopric husband before I was is one of my friends--inactive but was thinking of maybe going back. Now she says she is disillusioned and (pardon me)pissed! So I have done some good in the world!
Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 23 March 2016 02:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
Free2Live
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2012-09-01
Strong Free & Thankful:
FreeLive:
Strong Free & Thankful:
MormonThink:
Matter Unorganized:
The essay as currently written is how I remembered it initially. You may be conflating it with something else you read. Don't forget, the original essay left out much of the true history, probably because it wasn't faith promoting.
To be certain, go to mormonthink.com and look for their response to the essay.
Here's MT's response to the original essay:
http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo.htm
I'm pretty sure it did not say 'probably' just 'possibility'.
Thank you so much Mormon Think! Having WWIII with my TBM family on FB. "Possibly" works too. I did post yesterday that if they ever wanted true history of the church--to go to MormonThink.com. Suprised how much I was able to get out there. I so appreciate--from the bottom of my heart--a site like yours to send anyone to and assure them they will find accurate and factual info there. Thanks so much!
Awesome! You own your own life and are taking charge of it.
Two have told me off but I don't see that most have hung in there. I still plan to post some of the conversations here later. I think they might have shelves now and maybe a little weight on them. Being on the side of real truth is an awesome feeling! A woman who was married to my TBM, member of the bishopric husband before I was is one of my friends--inactive but was thinking of maybe going back. Now she says she is disillusioned and (pardon me)pissed! So I have done some good in the world!
This is a wonderful example of great things taught in the cult that if lived and utilized can and do transport honest people out of the hoax called a church. We sang songs to uplift and inspire such as 'Do what is right, let the consequence follow'. When we actually follow truth and take a stand good does help the world.
Conversely, the coward called a bishop I was in a bishopric with, sang well. His family was talented as singers. It became clear that he did not know the meaning of the lyrics he sang. He knew the stake president was bullying and out of bounds but would not take a stand for truth and right. mr bishop bowen was not "worthy" to recieve inspiration on this heavy topic as I visited in the office with him. He said absolutely nothing to me as I told him my beef about the unrighteous dominion being wielded in the local church. The only words god said through him to me were in the unction of well let us end this meeting and go home. Literally he representing god and the church threw me under the bus right then and there. No love. No revelation. Hypocrit enabler of narcissist leader.
Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 23 March 2016 03:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2010-05-22
FreeLive:
Strong Free & Thankful:
FreeLive:
Strong Free & Thankful:
MormonThink:
Matter Unorganized:
The essay as currently written is how I remembered it initially. You may be conflating it with something else you read. Don't forget, the original essay left out much of the true history, probably because it wasn't faith promoting.
To be certain, go to mormonthink.com and look for their response to the essay.
Here's MT's response to the original essay:
http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo.htm
I'm pretty sure it did not say 'probably' just 'possibility'.
Thank you so much Mormon Think! Having WWIII with my TBM family on FB. "Possibly" works too. I did post yesterday that if they ever wanted true history of the church--to go to MormonThink.com. Suprised how much I was able to get out there. I so appreciate--from the bottom of my heart--a site like yours to send anyone to and assure them they will find accurate and factual info there. Thanks so much!
Awesome! You own your own life and are taking charge of it.
Two have told me off but I don't see that most have hung in there. I still plan to post some of the conversations here later. I think they might have shelves now and maybe a little weight on them. Being on the side of real truth is an awesome feeling! A woman who was married to my TBM, member of the bishopric husband before I was is one of my friends--inactive but was thinking of maybe going back. Now she says she is disillusioned and (pardon me)pissed! So I have done some good in the world!
This is a wonderful example of great things taught in the cult that if lived and utilized can and do transport honest people out of the hoax called a church. We sang songs to uplift and inspire such as 'Do what is right, let the consequence follow'. When we actually follow truth and take a stand good does help the world.
Conversely, the coward called a bishop I was in a bishopric with, sang well. His family was talented as singers. It became clear that he did not know the meaning of the lyrics he sang. He knew the stake president was bullying and out of bounds but would not take a stand for truth and right. mr bishop bowen was not "worthy" to recieve inspiration on this heavy topic as I visited in the office with him. He said absolutely nothing to me as I told him my beef about the unrighteous dominion being wielded in the local church. The only words god said through him to me were in the unction of well let us end this meeting and go home. Literally he representing god and the church threw me under the bus right then and there. No love. No revelation. Hypocrit enabler of narcissist leader.
Edited my post to say--"most HAVE hung in there."
Free2Live, I have learned that we cannot expect justice, fairness or even goodness from those who are brainwashed by this cult. You are lucky when you get any of that if you are bucking the system. The morg has spent years teaching them that not even loved ones are important compared the the soul-eating machine. I am sorry they were stupid and mean bullies. The church teaches people to be that. I hope you feel gratitude and happiness that you are now free. We are some of the luckiest folks on earth to have gotten out!
Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
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Standing Against the Story of Abraham on Facebook
Posted: 19 March 2016 07:47 AM [ Ignore ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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I may be in a lot of trouble with my TBM family on Facebook. I posted the story of the Logan couple along with the Oaks quote. This was my neice's reply and mine:
http://fox13now.com/2016/03/11/letter-to-newspaper-leads-police-to-two-bodies-in-logan/
My Post:
What a scary quote. It reminds me of Hitler's reign. (Everything may be sacrificed.) Why does anything have to be sacrificed? What is wrong with good old fashioned truth? Truth is why I bought in but is no longer acceptable to them. Then again--truth from their own historical records was never OK with them. I am the one who did not know this.
Apostle Dallin Oaks:
Dallin oaks"My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors." - Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii
Even more scary news is coming. This couple knew. I know people who knew them and say they were people of integrity and common sense.
My Neice's Reply: How sad. Personally, I'm thinking this man lost his marbles. He doesn't appear to be sound. He murdered his wife and then himself. Sound people don't do things like that. Life can certainly be hard and I have a better understanding of people that do. Going through the struggles with my boys was hard and I got to the point where I didn't care to live. It was overwhelming. I do know taking your life is wrong. This man was probably overwhelmed with his wife's condition.
I believe Joseph Smith said a religion that doesnt require the sacrifice of all things will never have sufficient faith. (I'll have to look it up)
Sacrifice isn't something new. Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son. God was testing him to see if Abraham was willing to serve God first.
I'm so thankful I have a testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith and the restored gospel. He was human and imperfect but he was called of God.
Our current leaders are also men of God. Again, none are perfect, nor am I but they are called of God. Some would say it's blind obedience but that's not the case. As I grew up, I knew and exercised my agency to pray and know for myself. I never had to take anyone's word for it.
I know you feel differently. We will have to agree to disagree. I love you and always will.
My Reply:
Yes--religion has definitely taught people to sacrifice everything--including their children. I do not believe god has ever taught people to do that. I do not believe god told Abraham to sacrifice his son. It also in the old Test. that if a woman touches something sacred, her hands are to be cut off. The story of Abraham is what Islam uses to get mothers to give their sons as suicide bombers, what Joseph Smith used to get parents to give him their 14, 15, 16, 17 yr-old daughters for p. marriage--sex--according to recent LDS essays. Abraham was the example used by George Stone--my step father--your grandfather to gain access to mine, your mom's and (my sister's name) innocent young bodies for sexual molestation. Your mom was five. The story of Abraham--causing more death and pain than maybe any other lie. No parent or god of love would ask for such. I love you too (neice's name)--always will.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 19 March 2016 08:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Greatly written responses to your niece. d
Its funny, even though she saw the quote of Dallin H. Oaks, she just skipped over it and doesn't pay it the deep thinking and realization that it needs. He pretty much stated that "even if truth is found out, the Church will do all it can to hide it". How much clearer can you get?
WOW
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Posted: 19 March 2016 09:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Jon Marshall:
Greatly written responses to your niece. d
Its funny, even though she saw the quote of Dallin H. Oaks, she just skipped over it and doesn't pay it the deep thinking and realization that it needs. He pretty much stated that "even if truth is found out, the Church will do all it can to hide it". How much clearer can you get?
WOW
Thanks Jon. I know--that Dallin Oaks quote is creepy and scary. They choose to overlook. Since the cat is out of the bag, I post a lot more. I will share later. So far, she has not replied.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 19 March 2016 01:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Well done, SF&T! Too bad she didn't give the Oaks quote the weight it deserves. But every voice in opposition will help expose the deception. And eventually it will roll forth like a giant ball of HORSESHIT* cut out of the dump truck without hands, until it fills every chapel.
*respectful nod to maynardg, of course.
I'll share more about my own FB experience after it has a chance to precipitate (or fester) a little more.
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Posted: 19 March 2016 06:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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LostInParadise:
Well done, SF&T! Too bad she didn't give the Oaks quote the weight it deserves. But every voice in opposition will help expose the deception. And eventually it will roll forth like a giant ball of HORSESHIT* cut out of the dump truck without hands, until it fills every chapel.
*respectful nod to maynardg, of course.
I'll share more about my own FB experience after it has a chance to precipitate (or fester) a little more.
Thanks. She buys into and appreciates what he is saying!
This went on all day. I cannot believe how much heavy stuff I posted. I will share some tomorrow. She finally said she does not care if it is true or not--to get me to shut up with all the damaging info--church essays, SLT articles and such. Another neice just called and told me she and her mom (another sister) want me to take the posts down. I told her--no way--it is truth. I told her I would take that sister's name out of one of my posts. I told her this is the only good I can do on the earth from what happened to me--to help others know this can happen and to protect them and their family. She ended with her testimony--which I could have attacked--but did not. I will probably be de-friended by some but all in all--I think it was positive. Some of my friends stood up for me. I think a number of people now have shelves.
We will look forward to your FB when you are ready. Thanks for your posts and the new blood you have brought!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 20 March 2016 06:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Her saying that "She does not care even if it is true" is how you know nothing that is ever shown to the TBMS will unlock their belief in the Rockstar 12. Ugghhh......
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Posted: 20 March 2016 07:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Jon Marshall:
Her saying that "She does not care even if it is true" is how you know nothing that is ever shown to the TBMS will unlock their belief in the Rockstar 12. Ugghhh......
Mind blowing--isn't it? They don't care if Joseph Smith was a Warren Jeffs, Brigham Young a murderer--by having people killed. They are happy they are supposed to sacrifice EVERYTHING. You ask, "family?" They shrug like, "If necessary." They don't mind lying to their kids. What did we just get out of???
I have not even gone to FB today. Yesterday was so intensive. Tomorrow I will check and see how much family I have left on there. There was some good stuff said but don't know if any was heard. I have no shame when it comes to telling the world how much the church has hurt our family. It is the only good I can do with what has happened to me--to maybe enlighten someone like I wish had been done for me.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 21 March 2016 05:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Jon Marshall:
Her saying that "She does not care even if it is true" is how you know nothing that is ever shown to the TBMS will unlock their belief in the Rockstar 12. Ugghhh......
Initially, at least.
Some will "ponderize" later...and cracks will appear.
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan
Posted: 21 March 2016 06:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Jon Marshall
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Bruce A Holt:
Jon Marshall:
Her saying that "She does not care even if it is true" is how you know nothing that is ever shown to the TBMS will unlock their belief in the Rockstar 12. Ugghhh......
Initially, at least.
Some will "ponderize" later...and cracks will appear.
Cracks are forming in some of my friends views of the Church. I just hope they continue to grow bigger.
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Posted: 23 March 2016 06:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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I was able to get all of these posts in--surprising:
Me: And--In defense of Mom--who handed over her innocent daughters: There was a story over a year ago in the media about a woman just like my mom. A man (LDS roots) sold her the same story--god needed her to sacrifice like Abraham had. She would be helping bring in the millennium--family guaranteed heaven. Now I know there are 10s of thousands of Abraham abused women--counting Islam--millions.
Someday, I hope to be able to reach out to those Islam mothers and tell them it was not their fault that Abraham was used to cause them to sacrifice their sons and daughters. All you need is a mother who has been taught that god can use evil to accomplish good and she has to be trusting--then she will do anything. Look at our family--good people made to believe willingness to sacrifice one's son is a good thing.
Also look at our family--teaching their children that a man (Joseph Smith) who did exactly what Warren Jeffs did and our abuser did is a prophet of god. Also calling the present church leaders who lied to you all those years--and still do--prophets of god. Promise a person eternity with family--they will overlook the wicked serpent in the bottom of the basket of goodness.
If we are going to survive as a world--we need to stop calling evil good. I sat in the back seat of that car--eight years old--and heard our abuser tell mom (your grandmother) that if she would do whatever asked of her--her entire family would be guaranteed the highest degree of heaven--no matter what.
I cannot undo the past but I can try to help others from not falling into this trap. A Salt Lake Tribune survey (Feb 14th) on Mormon's faith crisis recently showed that over 2/3 respondents said they had left the church or were totally inactive. The biggest reason given was Joseph Smith's character and church history. LDS, is now becoming a huge real estate conglomerate. Soon, they will be getting out of the business of religion. Soon major law suits will hit them. History has shown that people who have been in a cult, go looking for another. Will this happen to the children in our family?
I love my mom with all my heart and I have forgiven her completely. It was not her fault. She was a victim. She was set up as a teenager by the warped teachings of the evil in religion--especially the story of Abraham--which was one of her favorites. Today--all those FLDS women--handing over their young daughters are told to sacrifice like Abraham. If Joseph Smith married young girls--it must be god's will. (Puberty back then was around 17 years old--average marriage age--22) And the legacy of abuse set by Abraham and Joseph Smith continues.
Here is a beginning for you.
http://www.sltrib.com/…/plural-marriage-essay-smith-church-…
The first Fanny Algar--17 was their nanny. Emma caught Fanny and Smith in the barn together. Joseph said they were married and an angel with a flamming sword made him do it! Sounds like a loving god to me. What an awful lie!
Then my niece posts:
True or not, I don't know. I know every church has its problems and I have a testimony. The church is true. People are people and make mistakes. Some of them are awful. If everyone left every church for those reasons, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be any churches. All religions have sin bc. People are in churches and people aren't perfect.
Yeah, I don't know....I'm not going to go looking through that stuff though. Polygamy existed at one point and I don't know the details of it. I'm not interested in it but thanks. Let's just respect one another.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 23 March 2016 07:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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To the above post where my neice said she did not care if it were true that Joseph Smith married young girls, other men's wives, had sex with them, would not look into it--I replied:
Of course not--one sign of a cult is teaching people to not look at anything critical. Absolutely--we need to respect each other. I just hope you know that you don't need to carry around any basket that was handed to you, which you have to ignore ugliness and lies inside. You were born with a perfect basket. You have enough goodness in you to fill it and there is so much goodness--to overflowing--all around us.
I asked why she and her siblings do not help this neice's sister as she has epilepsy and their family of four live on a little over $700 a month and I am the only one in the family who helps. They punish this sister as she wants nothing to do with the church. She made excuses about money (she pays a full tithing and her hubby is a CPA.) She thanked me for helping her sister. No offer to help and you can bet she will not. Ugh! So wrong!
Then one of my sisters posted this--referring to me bad mouthing the church:
He that is without sin among you, let him cast the 1st stone.
My reply:
Just because we are not perfect does not mean we should not stand up to evil and try to make the world a better place. At least my sisters now know why mom did the things she did. They have become her--defending a child molester--teaching their children to call him a man of god. Mom too caught a glimpse--from time to time--of an evil serpent in the bottom of the basket of goodness she had been handed. She ignored it. Where could she find another basket with so much goodness? Seems to me when we defend people who have sex with young girls and other men's wives and lie about it while they are doing it and pay people to murder people and say they have done more than Jesus Christ ever did--we might be on the wrong side of right. Glad I am not following those leaders to the next life. By the way, when I left the church--what horrified me the most was the way I had hurt and neglected my family in order to serve the beast. I saw how it had made me and my family into monsters--who thought we were righteous.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 23 March 2016 07:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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I've had similar experiences with my family (minus the molestation, and I'm so sorry you went through that).
Today I had to finally block my second oldest brother because he couldn't respect the things I posted on my timeline in Facebook. I haven't spoken to my third olest brother for something like six years, I'm fairly sure I told him I wasn't going to put up with his bullshit anymore and wouldn't be speaking to him again around 2010.
When you try to confront people still in the church with facts, they'll do this every time, fight back with a purely emotional arguement that lacks evidence and reason. My second oldest brother pretty much has a PhD (his words) and has his masters degree at least. He's a very smart person. Yet he warps everything in his worldview so that it's all rosy and shiny and perfectly matching the church. I'm done fighting him about it.
It's good your niece is still engaging with you. Maybe you can talk some sense into her some day.
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Posted: 23 March 2016 08:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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PhoenixGate:
I've had similar experiences with my family (minus the molestation, and I'm so sorry you went through that).
Today I had to finally block my second oldest brother because he couldn't respect the things I posted on my timeline in Facebook. I haven't spoken to my third olest brother for something like six years, I'm fairly sure I told him I wasn't going to put up with his bullshit anymore and wouldn't be speaking to him again around 2010.
When you try to confront people still in the church with facts, they'll do this every time, fight back with a purely emotional arguement that lacks evidence and reason. My second oldest brother pretty much has a PhD (his words) and has his masters degree at least. He's a very smart person. Yet he warps everything in his worldview so that it's all rosy and shiny and perfectly matching the church. I'm done fighting him about it.
It's good your niece is still engaging with you. Maybe you can talk some sense into her some day.
PhoenixGate,
I am glad you are strong! Being strong is the best way to survive as TBM family are not in their right minds--in my opinion.
My niece engaged me on something I posted. It was not for her--but here are my reasons for posting such private information on FB.
1. My mom finally understood two years before her death that our abuser was an abuser and not doing god's will. She only understood for the first time because I was talking about it in front of someone else. She seemed to see it through their eyes. I am hoping for this with my family. I believe they are both brainwashed and hypnotized--I know I was both and the two are different. I strongly influenced my sisters to join. So sad. They deserve to know the facts but if they still choose to stay in--it is their choice. My mom was so precious and loving and was such a victim herself. She sent me a note saying she was so sorry for what she had "unintentionally" done to me. Unintentional was the truth.
2. I can't stop thinking about those hundreds or thousands of FLDS young girls being sexually abused for the same reason I was--Joseph Smith's offer of "heaven for sex with the young" disabled their parent's sense of right and wrong. The mother or parents think they are "saving" them by sacrificing them in this way. Not only saving them--but the entire family. That "Offer of heaven for sex with the young", which Joseph Smith made to Helen Mar Kimball's parents and many others--worked on my mother and has worked on thousands of FLDS parents. My sisters have always known what was promised to our mother in return for us. How can they think it is OK for Joseph Smith to have done that but wrong for our abuser???
3. My sisters and I have a unique opportunity to help those girls by exposing what happened to us and telling them and their parents it is wrong. It might take years, but you have to start somewhere. I told one of my sisters about these FLDS girls a couple of years ago and she was very cold. I could see she did not care what was happening to them. How can this be? They would have wanted someone to help them when they were helpless and being abused. Helping these people would be making lemonade out of the lemons we were given.
4. If they will not help me, they need to get used to me telling our story as I have already told many people and I am going to do what I can to help those victims (girls and parents) going through what I did. If the spineless GA chruch leaders had stood long ago and made my mother know that when Joseph Smith did this--it was so wrong--Joseph Smith's speech could not have been used on her. The same today--they should be shaming Joseph Smith for offering "heaven for sex with the young" and putting the word out for those poor FLDs people. Greedy for tithing douche bag GAs!
Those are my reasons. How I wish someone had helped our mother to see it was so wrong. When you think Joseph Smith was a prophet and you know he did it--it makes it OK to happen in your family. My mother's ancestors were farmers in MO and knew Smith personally. They had nothing good to say about him. My great aunts made sure my mom knew. The branch president, who wanted to baptize her, told her god told Joseph Smith to do it--so there you go. I will do what I can--no matter what anyone thinks. I went through hell for three years as a child--thanks to good old Joe Smith--so I reserve that right!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 24 March 2016 11:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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I've been coming to this community off and on for years, and I'm constantly amazed at how lucky I am compared to other members here. My mother struggled with manic depression and bipolar disorder (although it went undiagnosed), and that resulted in her targeting her fourth son and so some extent myself. She physically(her and dad beat him up every day), emotionally and mentally abused my brother. She started hitting me until the same brother she had also abused caught her, stepped in and told her she had to stop. After that she would burst in and start yelling at me for anything and everything she could think of, none of which made sense.
My father was in a car accident in Germany, at age 19 during his mission. They gave him a six percent chance to live and a third of his brain is dead. They had me when they were 40 and 42, so by the time I became a teenager dad was pretty much retired, having time sense issues and just a little off in general, and I'm pretty sure mom was starting to slip into dimentia. She wasn't officially diagnosed until I was well out of the house.
Both my parents were lousy liars and would manipulate me emotionally growing up. They took me to church every Sunday. I did have a brief "friendship" with another girl who also went to my ward, who was a little older than me, who ended up manipulating the friendship into playing "games" with me, which were essentially her wanting to sexually experiment with another girl, and while I was interested in it too (due, I think, to precocious puberty) the entire relationship really falls into the category of a long term abuse/victim relationship. She essentially molested me over a period of years, and outside of this post I've only told two people it ever happened.
So I was already set up not to trust other people, even though I kept trying over the years, and I remember setting up "tests" for people in the church. First time I did a youth temple trip, I was alread into a few things that would get me disqualified if I answered the quetionaire wrong. I remember telling myself "if I lie to the Bishop and he doesn't catch it, then he doesn't really have any powers from God." I lied perfectly, he didn't catch it, and the first inklings of doubt set in.
Ultimately I dodged the worst of things, it looks like. It helps that as soon as I turned 18 I moved 800 miles and two states away from all of my TBM family. I was pissed when I started reading all the stories about victims of sexual crimes and the indicdents going unreported or even actively being covered up within the church, but I was not surprised. I'm glad you're able to do something constructive with the horrible things that happened to you and are able to stay in communication with your family. It's hard.
I really tried to work things out with the two of my TBM brothers so we could have at least a decent relationship as adults, but honestly I knew it wasn't going to happen. I knew that at 17 when I made the decision to step away from the church in everything but a resignation. The heartbreaking thing for me is that those two brothers are the fathers of all three of my nieces. Cutting off contact with them means I have to wait to contact their daughters until they're older, and by then they wiill have been thoroughly brainwashed. I'm sure Mark and Andy are saying some pretty nasty things about me to them too. On our side of the family I'm their only aunt by blood, so I'm pretty upset that I don't get to have a closer relationship with them growing up.
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Posted: 24 March 2016 12:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Ignorning the obvious is the best part of being Mormon. If it was not said by the Upper 12, than its nothing they want to hear.
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Needing quotes, Links
Posted: 22 March 2016 03:05 PM [ Ignore ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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you have these quotes or links easily accessible?
Joseph Smith saying he had done more than Jesus Christ and Jesus' followers had run away from Jesus but Joseph's had not run away from him--yet.
Brigham Young saying that if a person committed certain sins, a person is doing the sinner a favor by killing him so he can go to the CK and that is that is what Jesus meant by "Love your neighbor."
If a person becomes an apostate were to marry a black person, they shall be killed and their off-spring killed--on the spot.
If a member sins, it was their family member who should kill them.
A man needed four wives to reach the CK.
Brigham Young's pulpit speech on how it is good to marry one's sister.--Daughter?
Boyd Packer's quote on how not all truth is useful.
How long has it been since Tommy Monson has borne testimony that the B of M is true or JS was a prophet?
If it is easy--surely would appreciate any of these you might have around.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 23 March 2016 01:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Strong Free & Thankful:
you have these quotes or links easily accessible?
Joseph Smith saying he had done more than Jesus Christ and Jesus' followers had run away from Jesus but Joseph's had not run away from him--yet.
Brigham Young saying that if a person committed certain sins, a person is doing the sinner a favor by killing him so he can go to the CK and that is that is what Jesus meant by "Love your neighbor."
If a person becomes an apostate were to marry a black person, they shall be killed and their off-spring killed--on the spot.
If a member sins, it was their family member who should kill them.
A man needed four wives to reach the CK.
Brigham Young's pulpit speech on how it is good to marry one's sister.--Daughter?
Boyd Packer's quote on how not all truth is useful.
How long has it been since Tommy Monson has borne testimony that the B of M is true or JS was a prophet?
If it is easy--surely would appreciate any of these you might have around.
I found all of these on momonthink.com. The links just take you to the page where the topic is covered. You'll have to search for a key word (i.e. sister, wives, etc.) on the page.
Joseph Smith boasting.
Brigham Young quotes on Blood Atonement.
Brigham Young "death on the spot" quote.
I couldn't find a quote for four wives, but I did find several that confirm more than one wife is essential to exaltation.
Marrying siblings, parents, children etc.
BKP's Not all truth is useful talk.
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Posted: 23 March 2016 01:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I'll see if I can find any others. Meanwhile, enjoy these quotes I just found. I swear they're trying to be pro-church, but there are some great phrases that are damning against the church, IMO. Even quotes Paul H. Dunn, of all ironies.
Here's just one of the quotes, from GBH: "Small aberrations in doctrinal teaching can lead to large and evil falsehoods." Yes, yes they can!
http://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2016/03/false-doctrine-sometimes-believed-and.html
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Doubletree Suites
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The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
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The Criticial Point at Which Anger at the Morg Does NOT Serve Us and Even Sabotages!
Posted: 22 March 2016 02:02 PM [ Ignore ]
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I get that people feel angry when they discover the full extent of Mormon deception; I absolutely do.
And I believe it important to take whatever time and process it takes to work that through.
AND, I also have come to the firm belief that there comes a point when that can be a distraction from addressing something that pays much richer dividends.
The reality is that people are attracted to organisations for reasons, and feel no attraction towards others whatsoever. The fact is that at some point in time, we, our parents, or our ancestors felt attracted to Mormonism, or what it portrayed itself as offering.
In my case, I am the son of converts, so the process I describe discovering, is almost certainly easier to deconstruct than it is for those whose ancestors joined several generations back. But that does not detract, I'll argue' from the value of the process I describe.
As I unpacked the sequence of events preceding my parent's joining, I discovered both underlying guilt and shame issues, and also life destabilising serious mortality close-calls and losses, that I'd argue cumulatively made the Church appear to offer solutions, which they snapped up.
I'd argue that to miss the significance of these issues, as I attempt to move forward in my PostMo recovery and maximise the health of my family, is to leave toxic forces at play, risking the wellbeing of myself and my family.
So, to use my family hitory for illustrative purposes:
My fathers mother was born into a religious family, with even a lay preacher in the family.
He was then conceived out of wedlock at a time when that was far from uncommon, but heavily frowned upon, and logic would suggest that that process would have incurred religious judgement in the religious family. So his mother's pregnancy was 'an extremely short one', yet he never raised this with me. The extent to which hhe was conscious of this, I am unsure, but I'd argue that a strong case exists that even if he was unconscious of it, it could still have been a powerful psychological force.
Yet he was always curiously animated around pre-marital 'virtue' in a manner that I had not missed, but which never made perfect sense until I picked up the 'short order infanticipation' in family records.
I only very recently came across a compelling case that he was a victim of sexual abuse as a mid-teen by a woman in her early 20s. All his life he avoided treatment for that and it expressed as hostiling towards anyone who needed 'therapy'. He saw them as weak, an attitude that prevails to this day in my family-of-origin.
My mother came from a broken family and again as an eldest child, she arrived after a miraculously short pregnancy to a mother in extremely vulnerable circumstances. The family broke up when seh was young, so she was raised without a man in the house, and with huge instilled fear of sexuality.
In time, she joined the church in short order after losing a child at full term, and my father joined after a serious life threatening automotove accident.
And they joined a church that exhibited a very joyous, pro-family, sexually conservative stance.
Can you spot the connection?
She craved masculine certitude and was anxious about sexuality.
He feared sexually aggressive women, wanted women in a safe, motherly role.
It was a conversion made in Heaven, was it not?
In reality they had joined a faith that was profoundly riven with angst about sexuality, women, and integrity; a perfect place to do the growing and learning necessary to heal their wounds. Except that the religion was in denial about its problems and so massively avoidant to deep healing, just as they were.
They were in reality on a shame treadmill, searching for a solution. The Church offered a relatively attractive process to handle shame: embrace piety and project onto others and avoid the deep personal work essential to real sustainable healing.
And they bought it, I'd argue learning nothing of substance during their membership lives about the powerful forces that made the Church attractive to them in the first place.
Did they make an effort? Ab - so - lut - ely. They were devout members, serving at inordinate levels, devoting their lives and finances.
But because their efforts were expended into problematic and ineffective approaches, they made no progress.
And that is what I fear ex-members risk if they devote all their energy into anger at the Church after they leave, missing important family dynamics that possibly still persist even after departing the Church.
That is where some real 'redemptive' healing is on offer, as I have come to see it, so that is where our intellectual and emotional energies are more wisely spent.
Daryl
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl
Posted: 22 March 2016 03:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Very nicely articulated Daryl. The more we linger and commiserate with others, the more prone we are to miss out on the future "good stuff" in life.
Posted: 22 March 2016 04:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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former victim:
Very nicely articulated Daryl. The more we linger and commiserate with others, the more prone we are to miss out on the future "good stuff" in life.
FV,
I want there to be no ambiguity about my belief that people need as much space to process backlogged emotions relating to the Church as necessary - in THEIR judgement. And I am convinced that no one has the right to tell anyone else how long is enough and when it is 'too long'.
I am one person that has taken a loooooooong time, and turned over many stones in an attempt to release what binds me.
I get it that a lot of my anger was and is at myself, for not listenting to my own knowing way before I did. I had been tutored to see that knowing part of myself as willful and not spiritual. Now I recognise it as a key element of my natural spirituality, and that it was always in great shape, even it it was developing and evolving with experience.
IMO, there is much in our Western, male dominated culture that promotes rushing onward, and not looking backwards. To my money, that can be seriously flawed, leaving us wide open to missing huge lessons and insight.
I have experienced several people who have self-appointed themselves experts on my 'moving on' and that I was not letting go.
Without exception, I was less than convinced they had extracted insight from their departure, from my perspective. As I read it, they had rushed on too early.
We are always in fraught territory when we sense we are qualified to judge other's motes.
Daryl
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl
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Movie talk
Posted: 19 March 2016 02:13 PM [ Ignore ]
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I would love to have a conversation about the movie Don Verdean. The writer is LDS and if you watch it with that in mind it is even better.
There is a great part where the preacher's wife is singing a song about how women should listen to the men and not think.
There are some really good moments where they do mental gymnastics to explain away science.
bonus it was filmed in Utah and mentions of Zion national park and a trip to wendover with a hooker.
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Posted: 22 March 2016 01:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Thanks for the recommend Kevin2! When I saw it had Danny McBride in it I put it high on my "to watch" list. I watched it yesterday and quite enjoyed it. I laughed out loud several times. I'm curious to know more about the lds writer, and wonder if he isn't working through a faith crisis.
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Posted: 22 March 2016 10:34 AM [ Ignore ]
Jonathan Bentz (formerly AspieXLDS)
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Hey, all, I have decided to give blogging about my journey out of Mormonism another shot now that I've had a few years to separate myself from the anger I felt when I initially went about doing this. Here's the link to my first post about it:
http://journeyfrommormonism.blogspot.com/2016/03/separation-anxiety-classic-tactic.html
I will be adjusting my signature momentarily to reflect the new blog. I also have divisions for general observations about the world from the perspective of someone with Asperger's, and "entertainment division" where I review films and TV shows.
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Posted: 22 March 2016 12:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Nicely done, JB. I enjoy your writing.
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Posted: 22 March 2016 01:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Jonathan Bentz (formerly AspieXLDS)
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Nicely done, JB. I enjoy your writing.
Thanks, Brad.
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Great New Brene Brown Interview on Boundaries: The Concept Mormonism Soooo Struggles With & Even Actively Exploits
Posted: 19 March 2016 04:34 PM [ Ignore ]
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I have had a strong interest in boundaries for decades, but have never read a book that really nailled it to my satisfaction.
This new Brown interview, based aound her research, is an excellent addition to the dialogue, IMO.
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Posted: 21 March 2016 04:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Just kicking this back up the front, as it is an issue so many struggle with both before and after departing Mormonism, and Brene Brown is carving herself out a solid reputation in this space: shame/vulnerability/connection/boundaries.
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl
Posted: 21 March 2016 11:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Born Free:
Just kicking this back up the front, as it is an issue so many struggle with both before and after departing Mormonism, and Brene Brown is carving herself out a solid reputation in this space: shame/vulnerability/connection/boundaries.
Thank you. This sounds like what I need right now.
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Once mormon, twice shy.
Posted: 22 March 2016 08:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Mormonism was comfortable for me in one respect. The community shares the same rules so one knows what to expect in social situations. I find that now, when I attend a gathering there are times when people do things with which I am not comfortable. How do you trust people who do not share the same rules? When I explain my rules to friends who do not share them often they think the rules are stupid and unnecessary. I can't count on them to abide by them. They seem to think their job is to push on the boundry until I come around to the correct way of thinking. They push their ways just like my Mormon relatives who force their boundries and expect everyone to comply. I find it draining to be around people. I find it difficult to find friends who share my values. I find the older I get, the less I trust people. I tell myself that I believe in love and compassion but these concepts seem ephemeral. "Force" and "might makes right" seem to be the real values here; while love and compassion are trite concepts given much lip service relageted to mothers and saints. Love = compassion. Respect = fear. In families, the father position is respect and the mother's is love. The man does the killing and punishing use fear and intimidation while the woman does the nurturing using love and compassion. These positions came about through natural evolution. With modernizatiion these roles are shiftiing. The demands from the enviroment have been altered by humans are now these roles are less rigid. The man is the capitalist and the woman is the socal worker. These roles are no longer rigid. There is a great deal of over lap now. Men and women often do the same work.
It seems that mankind belongs to cults because they provide the structure necessary to form a group and keep it functioning together. Is there any diffence between a cult and a tribe? A nation seems to be a group of cults or tribes that have banded together and formed rules so they can exist peacefully together.
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"LEAVING A LEGACY"
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Native American DNA
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Sending the letter soon
Posted: 09 March 2016 04:33 PM [ Ignore ]
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Over Easter I am planning to talk to my parents and some siblings. Once that conversation is done I am sending a letter to the rest. This is what I have so far. I just typed it up this afternoon so I would appreciate thoughts.
I have 8 brothers and sisters. Half are TBM and half are inactive but still members. My mom is TBM and will be most hurt. That conversation will be in person but I may have her read the letter before I send it so she can feel a part of the process. She is the fountain of all rumor in the family. She called us yesterday to make sure we knew that my brother is getting a divorce and my other brother got fired. This will be a topic of conversation amongst the family for a while.
Dear Family,
_____ and I have been going through a lot the last few years and rather than leaving it to the rumor mill I wanted to write this down so you could understand where we are now and where we are going. We (as a family) have decided to officially leave the LDS church. We are in the process of having our names removed now.
We know that this will cause some of you pain and heartache. If we are completely honest, that is the reason that we have not done it until now. We have come to the realization that we cannot continue to be inauthentic and still be happy so we owe it to ourselves and to our family to be honest and open about this life altering change.
We fully understand what this means and can assure you this is not something we are doing on a whim. We have studied, prayed, pondered and doubted our doubts for the better part of 10 years. In that time I never read anything that would be considered “anti LDS” (until after we made the decision to leave). I started the study in an honest attempt to learn as much as possible about the church and it’s history. During my mission when I was challenged about church history and doctrine I studied it in depth so that I could understand it and gain a testimony of it. I wanted to be the best missionary I could be so I needed to be able to answer these questions. A few times during the mission I ran across doctrine and history that didn’t feel right. These things were set aside until I could grow spiritually enough to understand them. During my mission and after I read: The History of the Church, Preach my Gospel manual, The history of Joseph Smith written by his mother, The Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, The Bible, journals and diaries of pioneer’s/apostles/Emma smith, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Jesus the Christ, Dozens of Ensign/New Era, Our Search for happiness, True to the Faith, Our Heritage: A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Gospel Concepts, The Articles of Faith, much of The Journal of discourses and Joseph Smith: Rough Rolling Stone.
I studied with the intent to prove that the church was true. Two quotes stuck with me and guided my search.“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” - President J. Reuben Clark along with this quote by Gordon B Hinckley "Well, it's either true or false. If it's false, we're engaged in a great fraud. If it's true, it's the most important thing in the world. Now, that's the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith." As I studied I found dozens of foundational principles and historical facts that either cannot be explained or the explanation was too weak for me to accept.
It is important to us that you understand the reason we left is not because we were mistreated or that we have a strong desire to sin. We are not leaving because the devil tricked us (although we know that you may see it). We are not leaving because the Gospel is too hard to live and this is the easy way out. I would argue that making this decision has been harder than leaving home for 2 years for a mission. We are leaving because of the doctrine.
WHAT TO EXPECT GOING FORWARD
It’s not our intention to convince you or to lead anyone away. We know how happy the church makes you and we know the good things it does for your families. For that reason we choose not to list the many reasons that led us to this decision. If you want to talk about it we would be happy to engage in a respectful conversation. We’re not interested in a debate. The purpose of a debate is to win over the other person. We are comfortable with our knowledge and don’t wish to change your mind. If you wish to have a respectful conversation in an attempt to better understand what lead us away we would welcome that discussion. Understanding each other is a positive step.
We will not spread this information to your families and children. We anticipate that being a major concern for you. We will respect you as parents. We would still appreciate invitations to baptisms and baby blessings but we understand if you choose not to. We will teach our children about religion and thoroughly enjoy having them be a part of the nativity each year at Christmas.
If a time comes when our children are staying at your house for the weekend and you would like for them to go to church with you that is fine with us as long as you ask them and they want to go. We would ask that while they are children, you respect our wishes and do not proselytize to them. We will afford you the same courtesy with your children. You will not hear us speak ill of the church in front of your kids. If we slip and do, please feel free to call us out on that. We do not want this decision to negatively impact our interaction with the family.
It may surprise you to see wine in our pantry or beer in our fridge when you visit. This is a recent change for us. While we stopped attending church years ago we are just now letting go some of the restrictions it placed on us. We understand that it is not ok to bring that to your house but if you come to ours (and we hope you still will) please be prepared for that.
You may be upset reading this. You may be confused. Some of you may be thinking, “we already knew this, it’s about time you admitted it.” You may feel the need to bear your testimony to us thinking that if you try hard enough and work at it that we will come back. I can assure you that we are not coming back.
We have gone through a lot of phases on this journey. We have been confused, angry, sad, and pensive. We are finally at the point where we accept all these feelings. You may go through these same feelings and others while reading this and over the next months or even years. We understand and we ask that you respect us and our decision. We can disagree about religion and still be loving members of the same family. Our biggest fear in this process is losing our family and the relationships with you that are so important to us and our kids.The LDS church was a huge part of our lives and we do not reject everything we were taught. We appreciate and respect the values we were taught growing up. Without the church we may not have found each other and we can’t imagine what our lives would be without this amazing family we have.
In conclusion we challenge you to read, understand and practice the 11th article of faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Sincerely,
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck
Posted: 09 March 2016 09:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
finex
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Pretty awesome letter.
Posted: 10 March 2016 10:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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LostInParadise
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Looks great! I may steal a few lines for myself. I would think about moving the last paragraph up one, and softening it to say something like "We'd like to remind you of the 11th Article of Faith..."
Hope it goes as well as it can. Let us know!
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Once mormon, twice shy.
Posted: 11 March 2016 06:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Kevin2
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LostInParadise:
Looks great! I may steal a few lines for myself. I would think about moving the last paragraph up one, and softening it to say something like "We'd like to remind you of the 11th Article of Faith..."
Hope it goes as well as it can. Let us know!
Thanks, I will update.
Is it weird that I am actually excited for this conversation? I've waited for so many years but now I am completely at peace with it. Whatever the response will be depends on my family. I may feel different after but as of now it feels really good.
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck
Posted: 12 March 2016 10:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Kevin2
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Just spent the last 3 hours explaining to my mother that we are leaving the church. My wife and I were together and supported each other through the conversation. As expected my mom took it hard. Tears, anger, confusion, fear and every other emotion except acceptance. I told her it's ok for her to feel al that and it doesn't hurt my feelings that she is mad. We read her the letter that we are sending to the rest of the family. She asked a lot of questions and we were honest in our responses. We did not talk doctrine in detail but at her request I gave her a list of doctrinal issues we had. It's been a long night and we have a lot of healing to go but the first bandaid has been removed. She told me that this is the most hurt she has felt in her life other than her parents death. I honestly feel bad for her because I know how bad it hurts. She fully expects my sister and brother to follow suit. It's late and I'm tired so I hope this made sense.
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck
Posted: 13 March 2016 08:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
Free2Live
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Kevin:
Just spent the last 3 hours explaining to my mother that we are leaving the church. My wife and I were together and supported each other through the conversation. As expected my mom took it hard. Tears, anger, confusion, fear and every other emotion except acceptance. I told her it's ok for her to feel al that and it doesn't hurt my feelings that she is mad. We read her the letter that we are sending to the rest of the family. She asked a lot of questions and we were honest in our responses. We did not talk doctrine in detail but at her request I gave her a list of doctrinal issues we had. It's been a long night and we have a lot of healing to go but the first bandaid has been removed. She told me that this is the most hurt she has felt in her life other than her parents death. I honestly feel bad for her because I know how bad it hurts. She fully expects my sister and brother to follow suit. It's late and I'm tired so I hope this made sense.
Good letter and great visit with your mother. TBMs such as your mother are 'programmed' in fear and guilt. The whirlpool of emotion and bankrupt logic make this a common reaction. I have shared with my mother my departure a few times. When she responded with a comment that she is not changing I retorted that I do not want you to. You are old and the toll on a person is heavy. I just told my mother to not look into these facts and so forth and just live the rest of life happily as possible. The shock and awe literally cost me some health issues and she is aware of that Fact. My younger brother blubbered tearfully over the phone when I told him that I am free. To him I said that his wife will divorce him if he even considered looking into the real story about the lds church. Nephews and neices see life more openly as many of them are out or do not do the church game any longer. The connectivity and understanding with them is very rewarding.
Congratulations on your new found freedom from mental spiritual and financial oppression.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 14 March 2016 05:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Kevin2
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I got a call from my dad yesterday afternoon. He wasn't home when we spoke to my Mom. I asked her if she would like for me to call him and explain. She asked that we let her do that. My dad has secretly smoked and drank my entire life. He goes fishing on the weekends so he doesn't have to go to church. I wasn't worried about his reaction.
You can imagine my surprise when he called and sounded upset. He bore his testimony to me 3 times in a 5 minute call. He didn't ask a question he just told me what I was doing hurt my mom very badly. I was speechless so I simply responded "ok".
When the call ended I immediately felt better. For some reason the fact that my dad was finally sticking up for my mom made me feel like she would be ok. He doesn't believe it so his words are empty. I worried about her because from my point of view she is lonely in her faith.
I called my mom late last night. She told me she was worried that she would be bombarded with questions from family when we spoke the previous night. I wanted to see if she was ok. She was still crying and said that no one called or visited and that made her upset but the one thing that made that ok was my dad came home and they spent the day talking. He is not a TBM or even a NOM. He is simply a non believing inactive member. Him sharing his testimony (with my mom most likely by his side) was a show of support for her.
Good job Dad!
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck
Posted: 14 March 2016 06:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
jellybean
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That is a very good outcome, and like you said, good job dad!
Posted: 14 March 2016 06:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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LostInParadise
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jellybean:
That is a very good outcome, and like you said, good job dad!
Ditto!
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Once mormon, twice shy.
Posted: 14 March 2016 07:31 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Free2Live
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Kevin:
I got a call from my dad yesterday afternoon. He wasn't home when we spoke to my Mom. I asked her if she would like for me to call him and explain. She asked that we let her do that. My dad has secretly smoked and drank my entire life. He goes fishing on the weekends so he doesn't have to go to church. I wasn't worried about his reaction.
You can imagine my surprise when he called and sounded upset. He bore his testimony to me 3 times in a 5 minute call. He didn't ask a question he just told me what I was doing hurt my mom very badly. I was speechless so I simply responded "ok".
When the call ended I immediately felt better. For some reason the fact that my dad was finally sticking up for my mom made me feel like she would be ok. He doesn't believe it so his words are empty. I worried about her because from my point of view she is lonely in her faith.
I called my mom late last night. She told me she was worried that she would be bombarded with questions from family when we spoke the previous night. I wanted to see if she was ok. She was still crying and said that no one called or visited and that made her upset but the one thing that made that ok was my dad came home and they spent the day talking. He is not a TBM or even a NOM. He is simply a non believing inactive member. Him sharing his testimony (with my mom most likely by his side) was a show of support for her.
Good job Dad!
It is good news that family is pulling together. The fear that the cult induces is very evident. The twisted religious verbage sure highlights the emotional strings that get played by words that say one thing yet are accepted to mean another. Love.
Faith in blind-ish obedience to duty to a corporation does swim in fear. Fear of the unknown. Ostracizm for failure. Fear of an unwritten expectation, which most likely will be present as the group control takes effect. Fear of cult pressure is real. We have that programming from the lds culture so we feel it is not just imagination that we tense up in anticipation out of fear of the reprisal potential. My mother once asked me if she was a failure with regard to my leaving the so called church. I answered: "yes". lol. It shut her passive aggressive attack down as her self defense from her inner fear she was acting out in defensive rebuttal to me.
It is good that your dad is connected through love. A big part of the battle is sorting out the real conversation from the brainwashed language control and manipulation the lds cult has instilled carefully over a lifetime from birth to death and generation to generation.
Love! It is what is real.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 14 March 2016 07:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Kevin2
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It is interesting that I had a brother and sister text me to thank me for the letter. Both said they wish they had the guts to do it. The rest of the family said they would love us anyway.
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“And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good.” -John Steinbeck
Posted: 14 March 2016 08:27 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Winyan
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Kevin:
It is interesting that I had a brother and sister text me to thank me for the letter. Both said they wish they had the guts to do it. The rest of the family said they would love us anyway.
Maybe they will, now that you've paved the way.
Posted: 14 March 2016 10:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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maynardg
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Yea, Kevin. I don't know how you felt once the letter was sent, but for me it was a great release. My wanting to leave had been festering for months and then one Sunday(it was Stake Conference sunday -- I have always detested SC) I told my wife that I wasn't going and in fact I was leaving the church because they lied to me for 57 years. I wrote a letter to my family telling them why I was leaving the church and to my bishop to have my name removed from the church and I celebrated my first year of escape from the morg this year and it is ---- PRICELESS!
You'll find an increase of time for you and your family(no more three hours of mindnumbing HORSESHIT!). A raise in income that you can spend however you want. Realizing that your aren't perfect and that's OK! Not having an organization always telling you that you are not good enough no matter how much you do. I wish for me, that I had learned this many years ago, but now I'm going to enjoy having control over my life, my time and my money. And I will chant -- AMFIAG!
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Reality is crumbling
Posted: 08 March 2016 07:28 AM [ Ignore ]
waivering
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Sorry if I'm boring anyone here with my postings, but I'm finding it helpful for me to be able to talk to someone about these issue.s\
My wife seemed to be doing better with the fact that I have significant doubts. However, last night things took a turn for the worse. When she asked me a very direct quesion about my thoughts regading the priesthood, I tried to honestly and sensitively share my thoughts about the authenticity of the priesthood. She ran out of the room into the bathroom, locked the door and sobbed/threw up.
She is convinced that I made promises to her, god and our family when we got married in the temple and I'm throwing them away. I told her I still love her and our family very much. But, she spent most of the night sobbing and now won't really even talk to me.
She's started saying that I'm addicted to "anti-mormon" literature, even though I tried to share with her that what I'm actually reading is objective uncensored history.
I've tried to be even more affectionate with her and positive, but she says that she wishes she was dead instead of the deep pain and abandonment she's feeling now.
I have appreciated everyone's advice in my previous posts. Does anyone have any experience with this type of reaction? What did you do and were your efforts successful?
Posted: 08 March 2016 08:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Wow, what a violent reaction - throwing up? Wow...
I'd say slow down. Really. I know you probably want to shout it from the rooftops, but really, hold back. If she brings it up, just let her know that until you can have a rational discussion with her, without her making herself sick, it can wait. Be aware, this could take YEARS. I still can't talk to my wife about my disaffection, and she has doubled down on her devotion to the church. She will gush about goings on and claim more than once, "It's a miracle that..." (and meaning it in the most religious sense of the word). I sit there as mute as a stone and say nothing. It's better that way, at least for now.
At a much, much later time, maybe share with her Dieter F. Uchtdorf's talk "Come, Join with Us" from the Saturday morning session of October 2013 general conference. Especially the part about leaving the church.
That's all I've got. Best of luck to you.
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Posted: 08 March 2016 09:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Winyan
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I'm sorry you're both going thru this. I blame the church for it.
My advice is to just focus on your relationship with your wife right now. She needs some major signs and assurance of your devotion and love for her. Some old fashioned courtship and sincere showing of attention and affection. Dating. Flowers. Talking about other things besides church. The same things you did when you were falling in love. Then hopefully you'll eventually help her realize that it's mormonism you're rejecting and not her. But it will take time and effort. Best of hope to you.
Posted: 08 March 2016 12:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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waivering:
Sorry if I'm boring anyone here with my postings, but I'm finding it helpful for me to be able to talk to someone about these issue.s\
My wife seemed to be doing better with the fact that I have significant doubts. However, last night things took a turn for the worse. When trying to honestly and sensitively share my thoughts about the authenticity of the priesthood, she ran out of the room into the bathroom, locked the door and sobbed/threw up.
She is convinced that I made promises to her, god and our family when we got married in the temple and I'm throwing them away. I told her I still love her and our family very much. But, she spent most of the night sobbing and now won't really even talk to me.
She's started saying that I'm addicted to "anti-mormon" literature, even though I tried to share with her that what I'm actually reading is objective uncensored history.
I've tried to be even more affectionate with her and positive, but she says that she wishes she was dead instead of the deep pain and abandonment she's feeling now.
I have appreciated everyone's advice in my previous posts. Does anyone have any experience with this type of reaction? What did you do and were your efforts successful?
Have you printed off the church essays, where they admit that JS married young girls (young as age 14), other men's wives and probably had sex with them? And the one about the rock in the hat--admitting JS used those items for other things before the B of M translation? (Talking to evil spirits to find hidden treasure? And the part of the plural marriage essay that says that god approved with JS did? Does she really feel OK with teaching your children he is a prophet of god? This maybe for the future. I agree--right now she needs nurturing.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 08 March 2016 12:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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LostInParadise
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Winyan:
I'm sorry you're both going thru this. I blame the church for it.
My advice is to just focus on your relationship with your wife right now. She needs some major signs and assurance of your devotion and love for her. Some old fashioned courtship and sincere showing of attention and affection. Dating. Flowers. Talking about other things besides church. The same things you did when you were falling in love. Then hopefully you'll eventually help her realize that it's mormonism you're rejecting and not her. But it will take time and effort. Best of hope to you.
^This.
Also, buckle in and keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle. DW reacted exactly the same way, and continues to do so, on a regular basis. Sunday was hell. She asked what I believe/don't believe (since it is in flux these few months). I tried to answer...BIG mistake. Shouting match about Book of Abraham and such. Daughter ran away to her room and both were crying. I banged pots and pans around the kitchen stove for a while. After we all calmed down, we had more discussion, but then it was about our relationship and communication. This discussion was a little more effective than the religious one.
I count on every 2-3 weeks having a big blow-up like this. Usually consists of her thinking she wants to know my thoughts, which leads into an hour of arguing, then an hour of hiding in separate rooms to cry/sulk/be mad and cool off, then another hour of both trying to express how the other isn't being supportive and reassuring and loving. The length and timing varies, but this is our pattern. Expect it, and learn to handle it better each time.
Fortunately for me, I had just listened to a Mormon Stories podcast about...well, it was about sex, but the underlying theme was to focus less on expecting your partner to fulfill your needs, and focus more on what they need. It's hard; I'm selfish. I feel picked on and unloved pretty often (partly due to underlying relationship problems that preceded the faith crisis). But when we talked on Sunday, I tried to listen while she told me how I wasn't fulfilling her needs, and tried not to do the same thing, even though I wanted to. We both feel like victims/betrayed/let-down, etc. I guess we both are. But I'm starting to accept that, for the time being, it's only going to work if I am the one that reaches out and shows love/affection/support even when I don't feel it. It's a work in progress.
Obviously, I haven't yet figured out how to talk about what I'm learning and thinking without it turning into a fight, but I hope I can just sow some seeds here and there (I actually printed out the CES letter last night and plan on just leaving it laying around by my stuff, because I don't think she'll be able to resist reading at least a little--and then she can be mad at Jeremy Runnells instead of me).
The "addiction" to "spiritual porn"/"anti material", and her being bothered by it, I understand. The sense of betrayal over temple covenants...check. The wishing she were dead...yep. DW said Sunday it's a good thing we don't have anything stronger than Tylenol laying around, because she has days she'd take it. And that she has days she's glad she doesn't have to drive very far because she'd be tempted to just keep her foot on the gas and her hands off the wheel. There's gonna be some depression for both of you. If it becomes chronic/insurmountable for either of you, get professional help!
Hang in there! I'm not that far ahead of you, but these long timers here are proof that you'll survive.
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Posted: 08 March 2016 01:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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WinstonSmith
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I agree with MU---slow down. As much as you want to shout out to the world, it will only make your wife defensive and skeptical.
My wife shared with me that after my "announcement", she was traumatized and would imagained cutting herself. I worried, for awhile, that she might follow through.
I am not suprised that someone could become "throw-up sick" under the circumstances of a spouse having a "faith transition". No matter what side, a faith transition is a BIG deal. In her eyes this is worse then death.
This is a two-way street and your wife will---need---must go through a grieving process, just like you have or will. Be empathetic about this with your wife.
My circumstances are less than ideal (IMO), but I have found a way to coexist with my wife and she with me.
The hardest thing for me was to step back and accept that my wife is a believer and she has the right to believe after the dictates of her own conscience.
The hardest thing for my wife was to step back and accept my right to follow the dictates of my own conscience.
I am supporting my oldest son on his mission and will do the same for my other kids. I help my wife do things she needs done because of her activity in the Church. I have learned to be okay with it. There are a lot of worse things in this world than being a member of the Mormon Church. Focus on the good that comes and is done by the average member of the Church.
My suggestion is to make a treaty that allows your wife to participate in the Church without feeling treatened and unsafe by your new beliefs; and that she allows you to pursue your journey without feeling treatened and unsafe by her beliefs.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 08 March 2016 01:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
waivering
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Strong Free & Thankful:
waivering:
Sorry if I'm boring anyone here with my postings, but I'm finding it helpful for me to be able to talk to someone about these issue.s\
My wife seemed to be doing better with the fact that I have significant doubts. However, last night things took a turn for the worse. When trying to honestly and sensitively share my thoughts about the authenticity of the priesthood, she ran out of the room into the bathroom, locked the door and sobbed/threw up.
She is convinced that I made promises to her, god and our family when we got married in the temple and I'm throwing them away. I told her I still love her and our family very much. But, she spent most of the night sobbing and now won't really even talk to me.
She's started saying that I'm addicted to "anti-mormon" literature, even though I tried to share with her that what I'm actually reading is objective uncensored history.
I've tried to be even more affectionate with her and positive, but she says that she wishes she was dead instead of the deep pain and abandonment she's feeling now.
I have appreciated everyone's advice in my previous posts. Does anyone have any experience with this type of reaction? What did you do and were your efforts successful?
Have you printed off the church essays, where they admit that JS married young girls (young as age 14), other men's wives and probably had sex with them? And the one about the rock in the hat--admitting JS used those items for other things before the B of M translation? (Talking to evil spirits to find hidden treasure? And the part of the plural marriage essay that says that god approved with JS did? Does she really feel OK with teaching your children he is a prophet of god? This maybe for the future. I agree--right now she needs nurturing.
I don't know if she's ready for any of that yet, quite honestly. In the face of a deeply-held emotional belief, logic and reason seem to be viewed as threats, rather than invitations to view things objectively.
And as for the 14yr old bride, my wife is a descendant of that girl. My wife has emotionally borne her testimony to me that that particular girl died firm in the faith that she was going to celestial glory for her sacrifice.
Posted: 08 March 2016 05:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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waivering:
Strong Free & Thankful:
waivering:
Sorry if I'm boring anyone here with my postings, but I'm finding it helpful for me to be able to talk to someone about these issue.s\
My wife seemed to be doing better with the fact that I have significant doubts. However, last night things took a turn for the worse. When trying to honestly and sensitively share my thoughts about the authenticity of the priesthood, she ran out of the room into the bathroom, locked the door and sobbed/threw up.
She is convinced that I made promises to her, god and our family when we got married in the temple and I'm throwing them away. I told her I still love her and our family very much. But, she spent most of the night sobbing and now won't really even talk to me.
She's started saying that I'm addicted to "anti-mormon" literature, even though I tried to share with her that what I'm actually reading is objective uncensored history.
I've tried to be even more affectionate with her and positive, but she says that she wishes she was dead instead of the deep pain and abandonment she's feeling now.
I have appreciated everyone's advice in my previous posts. Does anyone have any experience with this type of reaction? What did you do and were your efforts successful?
Have you printed off the church essays, where they admit that JS married young girls (young as age 14), other men's wives and probably had sex with them? And the one about the rock in the hat--admitting JS used those items for other things before the B of M translation? (Talking to evil spirits to find hidden treasure? And the part of the plural marriage essay that says that god approved with JS did? Does she really feel OK with teaching your children he is a prophet of god? This maybe for the future. I agree--right now she needs nurturing.
I don't know if she's ready for any of that yet, quite honestly. In the face of a deeply-held emotional belief, logic and reason seem to be viewed as threats, rather than invitations to view things objectively.
And as for the 14yr old bride, my wife is a descendant of that girl. My wife has emotionally borne her testimony to me that that particular girl died firm in the faith that she was going to celestial glory for her sacrifice.
She is in deep. When faced with these kind of facts, TBMs have to make a choice--choose to believe or not. My mom was the same way--a convert. Her mother, aunts and uncles had grown up hearing stories from their grandparents about "old Joe Smith" and his sickening lack of morals. This part of my family were never-Mo farmers from Mo when the mormons were there. My mom's relatives were horrified to learn she wanted to join mormonism. They made sure she had the ugly facts. My mom was assured by missionaries, branch presidency that sometimes god has to command people to do things that would be wrong for a man to do on his own--under god's command--the wrong becomes sacred. Ugh! A kindler, gentler ISIS. My mom tried to tell me some of what Joseph Smith had done--under god's command. As a TBM, I would not listen. I told her it was anti-mormon lies.
If your wife sees these wrongs as sacred, she is in real trouble. I believe that if my mom were alive, she would listen to me--but it might take decades. Hopefully, you can love each other around her brainwashing. It might be kind of like loving a spouse who has brain damage. At least you can come here to vent. Your wife may get it someday. You never know. My best to you and your wife.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 08 March 2016 08:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
NotAnymore
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Dude you are ruining her Disney inspired Mormon fairytale. You were her knight in shining armour that was supposed to provide the happily-ever after and now you are killing that dream. You might as well be giving out poisoned apples to her and your children as far as she is concerned.
The truth is she is going through a difficult process and you need to be as sympathetic as possible without wavering on your beliefs. Some women will choose divorce over being married to an "apostate" but all that means is your wife was never as committed to you in the first place as you thought (which happens more than people think). I know that's not comforting right now and probably what you don't want to hear but it's the truth. She will either come to terms and respect your decision or she won't. It's a choice she will have to make and it will say a lot about her character.
Posted: 09 March 2016 06:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Hank
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When I realized the church was bullshit, my desire to shout it from the roof tops was overwhelming, but I knew I had to try to moderate it because of my family. For me it was very hard to be moderate when I was pissed off, feeling betrayed by the church. Things didn't go too well. My youngest son was great with my apostasy, as was my oldest, but the middle one seemed to double down on being TBM. My wife wanted a year off from the topic.
During that year I was chewing at the bit, but I usually avoided the topic. The handful of times I didn't, well, those aren't good memories. To add to this, just like LostInParadise, there were underlying relationship issues, where if it weren't for the kids, I would have left several years ago.
In January the year was up, but she wanted a therapist involved. We went to one who after talking to us a few minutes said there's no way we should talk about religion until we rebuild our relationship. And that's where we are. It has been going very well the past month, she's really trying (and so am I, of course). This last Sunday she actually stayed home and we just stayed in bed all morning. The only time I remember doing that was on our honeymoon! It was great! I don't think it means much church-wise, but it may mean something....
With the kids, instead of trying to point out the church's evils, I started to emphasize critical thinking skills. To life, politics, anything but to religion. Within the past 2 months, my 16 year old is really getting it and has tested me by using his critical thinking skills on things I say (not relating to church). I quickly realized what he was doing and welcomed questioning. Has made me more consistent in my thinking and I see him picking up on spewed political bullshit as we watch the presidential primaries. He's developing those skills and it's just a matter of time before he applies those skills to the church (I hope). I also told him that I remember being 16 and (to make the long story short) the morning wood and thoughts that come with it are normal, not evil. He responded very well to that.
Bottom line, as others have stated, take it slow. And I know that's hard as hell to do, but it seems that in most cases, it's the best approach. Seems that for most exmo's the journey took a while before realizing the church was bullshit. Can't expect a TBM to change their mind in the couple of hours or a few weeks of things we tell them that we've learned (which in their mind is ani-mormon stuff).
Best wishes to you.
Posted: 09 March 2016 09:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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Jeez... You certainly have a tough row to hoe there, waivering. I do not have any advice for you, though. As a gay, HIV+, never-mo, never-married, I would not presume to offer relationship pointers. But you have recieved a beaucoup amount of good, solid suggestions for your path forward. With your DW experiencing such a visceral, physical reaction, it's probably best to tread lightly for awhile. If you apply the suggestions made here with love and understanding an compassion, there will be a resolution to your dilemma. Just... don't force it. Allow that resolution to develop naturally/organically.
Meanwhile... Consider this: Coming out of TSCC [The So-Called 'Church'] is a lot like coming out of the closet. WE have the time and room and thought process to "get used to the idea." It's telling others – and the resulting fear, rejection, anger, demolishing-of-dreams and, eventually, hopefully, acceptance – that's the real b¡tch of an unsatisfactory situation. You will find your way; if, for no other reason, than you came here to ask for help.
Namaste.
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The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.
Posted: 11 March 2016 02:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
Joycee
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After reading your story, the words "ABORT ABORT ABORT!" came to mind lol. Abort your mission to try to get your wife to see the church as the fraud it is. Now is not the time unfortunately.
I was in the same situation as you 10 years ago. My husband was in deep and anything I said to him just sailed over his head. We fought, argued, I spewed all the ugly facts I could get my hands on to no avail. Lo and behold six years after I left, he told me he had secretly been investigating the things I had said and had decided to leave the church. This was a serious WTF moment for sure. I had pretty much decided he would never leave and had found an uneasy peace with that.
The moral of the story is he had to figure it out for himself, pure and simple. You flipped the script and your wife has a right to be angry right now. Give her that right. Be patient, love her, and try to keep arguments to a minimum. The next little while is going to suck but make sure and take time out for yourself. Maybe find some like minded folks in your area that feel the same way and take your rants there, or come here.
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Do you believe the Church developed its sexual shaming strategy?
as an adhoc, evolved strategy based on jumbled beliefs around sexuality? 5
as a deliberate strategy to get and maintain control over people? 2
some combination of the above. 7
Total Votes: 14 You must be a logged-in member to vote
Sexual Shaming: an Accidental or Consciously Embraced Strategy for Control?
Posted: 08 March 2016 06:52 PM [ Ignore ]
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Born Free
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Mormonism is HUGE on things like porn addiction at present.
This marks a new high tide mark in its harnessing of sex and porn-shaming as a control strategy.
Most people who know anything about this area professionally, know that nothing the Church does is helpful in dealing with any real problem, and most everything they do, actually componds the very issue they claim to want to address.
There is absolutely NO data to scientifically justify their strategy.
SO, that leads to the questions in the poll.
It might follow that if this is a deliberately and consciously designed process, do they employ psychologists to advise them on this process?
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Posted: 08 March 2016 08:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
NotAnymore
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I think it's more tradional based that also happens to be a controlling agent. The church came into existence during a period of time when sexual purity was especially important. Of course, these rules never applied to the elite in the church but that is beside the point.
I think church leadership sees porn as a problem not so much because church leadership truly cares about sexual purity but because they see how destructive it can be to the ideas of perfection and overall worthiness that the church is constantly selling to its membership. Therefore, especially for the young woman TBM, porn is seen almost as bad or akin to cheating. I mean how could a "worthy" Priesthood holder want to look at something so obscene and especially someone that isn't his wife/girlfriend.
I just don't see the church leadership quite frankly as collectively being all that bright. Sure, you have a bunch of mostly super successful men but I think success actually makes these men think they are smarter than they actually are. I've seen it too many times in the business world. These types constantly pat themselves on the back and I am sure many if not all truly believe they have been called from on high because of their great worthiness, obedience, dedication and hard work. Just like it takes a combination of unfavorable factors to create a serial killer so does it take a combination of favorable factors to create an LDS Apostle.
In affect, I simply do not believe that the top brass of the LDS church truly goes too far out of its way to implement controlling elements in the church but on the occassions they do, they do it because the means justifies the end (at least to them). But mostly I think they are just people that followed the LDS doctrine and things in their life (both material and spiritual) swung in their favor and so they made a strong correlation between the lds church's teachings and their personal success. Now they are old, tired and conservative and they are going to keep promoting the things they were taught in their formative years as truthfulness.
How many times do you hear super wealthy business men give advice about how to be successful? Well the truth of the matter is while their advice is generally good, 99,999 out of 100,000 times the average Joe that did the exact same thing isn't going to reproduce the same results. In other words, I don't think the Apostles of the LDS church sit around and scheme about how to control the flock as much as I think they just mostly tow the line they were taught because, ultimately, it's what worked for them.
Posted: 09 March 2016 09:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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I voted for a combination of the two. I don't think that was the original intent, I don't think that is the current intent, but with cultural biases and such coming into play, I think it is definitely exploited, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
Where I would suggest an element of intent exists is that the leadership must know that the overall cultural practice is used/abused, yet they do NOTHING about it. Or, they keep adding on the rhetoric in spite of this, i.e. constant conference talks about porn, bishops prying into the sexual practices of teens, etc.
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Posted: 09 March 2016 04:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Joseph Smith figured out what people wanted more than anything and that was to be assured of a happy afterlife that would have no end and being with those they loved forever. He had the pattern already set by other religions--goodnesss was what you had to give to receive those rewards. Sexual morality was a big part of that understood goodness. I think he had a warped sense of humor as well. He constantly warned of all the wrongs he was committing--especially sexual sins.
I know TBMs love this morally clean stuff. It is one of the big reasons my TBM family do not want to give up the church even if it is not true. They think it is more important to have the church teach their children to not have sex than anything. Big bottom line for them. I think the GAs know this.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 09 March 2016 06:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Muffin Top
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Born Free's Poll:
"Do you believe the church developed its sexual shaming strategy?
As an ad hoc, evolved strategy based on jumbled beliefs around sexuality?"
I believe the church didn't start out with a sexual strategy per se, other than the polygamy strategy, but I believe the leaders discovered as time went on that they could control the members thru sexual behaviors, or lack thereof.
I believe that after the church evolved out of polygamy the leaders discovered other sexual behaviors, that they didn't understand or acknowledge before, that they could demonize. I refer to their treatment of these "new" behaviors as the "EWWWW" factor.
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Posted: 09 March 2016 09:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
finex
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During the long evolution of religions it's clear that the most controlling and guilt tripping aspects have found their way to the top of the list.
Posted: 10 March 2016 12:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Born Free
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On the linked page, Alain de Botton presents a modern, science-based view of 'porn addiction', and the gap between it and the Morg's disgust and shame-based perspective, could not be greater.
One does not have to be a rocket scientist to guess which approach will be most effective in reigning in problematic behaviour, if and when it really exists.
Personally I do NOT subscribe to the idea that people cannot develop problematic relationships with all sorts of 'stimulants', including pornogaphy. But for the vast majority of people, there is no evidence pornography ever approaches problematic dimensions.
But I see pornography, when it reaches problematic levels, largely as a symptom of a problem, rather than a cause.
When human beings are in pain or numb, many embrace a form of self-medication in a maladaptive strategy. Forms of self-medication can include but not be limited to: drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex, high risk activities.
Link to Alain de Botton material.
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Posted: 10 March 2016 02:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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I have heard this "rumor" and would like to know if it is indeed "fact". The rumor is that Utah(happy valley, full of TBmorgbots firmly entrenched in their morgbot comas) has the highest incidence of people hooked on porn. My question is why is that the case(besides the fact that the morg, its leadership and TBMorgbots are the most sexually repressed MFkrs on the face of the planet). Probably part of my naivete, but IMVHO, I believe that addiction to porn is the result of some underlying sexually repressive symptoms cause by the sexually repressive morg. I wonder if porn would be an issue if one had multiple adventureous sexual partners?!
Posted: 10 March 2016 02:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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maynardg:
I have heard this "rumor" and would like to know if it is indeed "fact". The rumor is that Utah(happy valley, full of TBmorgbots firmly entrenched in their morgbot comas) has the highest incidence of people hooked on porn. My question is why is that the case(besides the fact that the morg, its leadership and TBMorgbots are the most sexually repressed MFkrs on the face of the planet). Probably part of my naivete, but IMVHO, I believe that addiction to porn is the result of some underlying sexually repressive symptoms cause by the sexually repressive morg. I wonder if porn would be an issue if one had multiple adventureous sexual partners?!
When does a child want candy the most? When she/he can't have any!
There was a thread here a few months back about the lack of maturity in many mormons. Now we juxtapose the two concepts (immaturity and wanting something you can't have) and voilà! Morgbots are continually told sex is taboo, so they want it more, ergo high porn usage in Utah.
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Posted: 11 March 2016 06:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Reminds me of a good friend who lived in Utah for a number of years then returned to Ohio. While she was here in Utah, the high teen pregnancy rate amazed/alarmed her. Well, duh! Teenagers are horner little buggers. Add to it that for morgbot teens -- don't even think about sex let alone do it(the forbidden fruit). Then add, if you practice safe sex, you are planning to have sex which is morally/religiously more worse(doesn't look right) than if you got caught up in the moment(anyone who has had sex knows that there is a moment when it just feels so damn good, to hell with the consequences) and they have sex -- we couldn't help it! Some teens are lucky because they have compassionate leaders who know/realize/remember what is was like to be a morgbot teenager and some get the leaders from hell.
Posted: 11 March 2016 08:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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All cultures have rules for sex and marriage. Older cultures are governed by religions. Utah is a good example of how this works. Before Utah was a state, it was governed by the Mormon church. Now it's part of a larger civil goverment. Modern people have embraced civil governments as a way of brininging citizens with differing religious beliefs together bringing larger regions together under one flag.
Many places in the world have not embraced civil governments. They are still ruled by tribal and religous law. These religous governments just like mormonism are dictatorships. If the trinity of Christians, Jews and Muslims would stop fighting the holy war; the world would be a far more peaceful place. Instead of making the world a more peaceful place; these religions foster violence while giving lip service to peace.
Shaming is a negative way of controlling individuals and forcing cohesiveness in a group.
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advice on letter to family
Posted: 07 March 2016 02:16 PM [ Ignore ]
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Real or imagined, I am increasingly self-conscious about people talking about me and jumping to conclusions without any input from me. So, if you'd like a nice long read, I'd appreciate any input, advice, warnings, etc.
Here's my first draft:
For my LDS family & friends:
[TL;DR version at end]
I hereby invoke the 11th Article of Faith.
I no longer accept the doctrines of the LDS church. My entire belief system has crumbled, and I am working on building a new one. It won't be the same as before. This is a dramatic change in my life, and is not easy for me, or my wife, or family. But we'll get through it. I don't approach it lightly. But I approach it with confidence and hope.
I recognize that the LDS church does a LOT of good. It teaches people to have good morals. It teaches them to contribute to society and become part of something bigger than themselves. It teaches them the value of family, love, peace, hard work, patience, kindness, and so much more. It teaches and participates in charitable living. And it gives people hope and peace in their personal lives.
Yes, the church teaches good things. Yes, there are aspects of my life that are better because I am a member of this church. But no, I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, seer, or revelator. I have a lot of reasons for this, which I won't go into here. (If you want to discuss it or ask questions, I would be happy to accommodate you. If you argue, I will try not to participate, but no promises.) The bottom line is that I believe the LDS church is a charitable corporation that does good things but is not the sole church of Christ.
Some of you will want to testify of what you believe. I understand this. I'd have felt the same way only a few months ago. I trust that it comes from love. But please understand that I'm not a novice to the church. I know that your experiences are special to you, and that they lead you to believe as you do. My experiences do the same for me. Please understand that your testimony probably won't surprise or sway me. I wish I could impart what I know/believe, just like you.
Some of you will want to know what sin or offense led me to disbelieve. It was neither; this is a decision based on doctrine. You might think I'm just looking for the easy way out, since it's so hard to be a member. Let me assure you that it's even harder to be a nonbeliever among active family and friends. It's not the easy way.
I've been asked what I DO believe. I'm working on that. I imagine it will take a long time. Everything I learned about God and religion came from the church. I'm starting over. I'm open to the existence of God and the divinity of Christ, but I'm not sure yet. I have a strange mixture of uncertainty and confidence. I'm uncertain about everything, but I'm confident that it will be okay.
My biggest fear going down this path was losing my wife and children. It still scares me a little, and we have rough days, but we're doing our best and things are looking okay. In some ways, we communicate better now that we did before. I'm hopeful that we'll reach a point where our relationship is stronger than ever. I'm trying to show my children that I still love them just as much as before. I think it's working.
It makes me sad that some of you will be distraught about all this. The last thing I want is to cause stress, concern, etc. Actually, the last thing I probably want is the hurtful words that will come my way from a few well-intentioned folks. But next to that, I know some of you will feel duty-bound to save me from what you see as error. I appreciate your concern, and I'm sorry that you feel sad, upset, etc. But please understand that my agency is as precious as anyone's, and I am happy in my decision, despite the difficulty it will cause in my relationships.
If you've managed to muddle through all of the above, you may wonder why I'm sharing all this. It's a personal matter that I would prefer to keep mostly private. But religion in our culture is not a private matter. Since it will be talked about anyway, I'd like you to get it from the source rather than hearsay. So if you have questions or want to know more, just ask.
[TL;DR version: I no longer believe in the LDS church, but I am still me. I still love you all. It's not a matter of sin, laziness, or offense; it's about the doctrine. If you testify to me, we will both be uncomfortable. I will discuss doctrine and answer questions, but won't put up with attacks or one-sided conversation.]
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Posted: 08 March 2016 05:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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It's very good. The only thing that I would throw out is that in the beginning you state that JS is the reason for your leaving the church. Then near the end, you state that it's a matter of doctrine. Some may see this as a little confusing...
Good work.
Posted: 08 March 2016 05:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I always flinch when people say they will break the news in writing. Personally, I'd do it in person, but maybe that's just me. However, this is well-written and respectful. I understand that some family members may be too far away. And I also understand that a written note allows you to get your message across without interruption.
For future reference, you may wish to familiarize yourself with Dieter Uchtdorf's talk from October 2013 general conference. Among other things, he says this:
-
"In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves." (my emphasis)
Good luck with this and please "return and report."
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Posted: 08 March 2016 05:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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I'm concerned about you including the paragraph about your wife and children in that you need to develop boundaries and not overshare. That info may give your family a reason to go around you and contact your spouse and/or children in an effort to use them against you. But, I may be paranoid as I don't know your family. It's just something to consider.
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Posted: 08 March 2016 09:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Winyan
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It's a good letter, if you feel you must explain things to people. I'm not sure you need to, but that's me. I think the best information you can give people is for them to actually see that you're the same happy, good person you were. That Satan doesn't have you in his clutches, etc. Nothing you can say is more effective.
Posted: 10 March 2016 10:31 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Thanks for the advice, folks! I was thinking I'd "come out" on FB, but now I'm waffling on the whole idea. I guess I'll stew on it for a while. If I do it, I'll apply or at least consider your suggestions.
With baby blessings and my own daughter's baptism coming up, I sometimes think it would be easier to "let the cat out of the bag" all at once and on somewhat my own terms. Maybe it's better (if more stressful and time consuming) to deal with people one on one as they start seeing the signs.
Sometimes I don't care what people think or assume about me, and even take guilty pleasure in knowing people have made false assumptions. But sometimes it really bothers me.
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Posted: 06 March 2016 10:40 AM [ Ignore ]
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I wrote a letter to the editor the other day. It got published. I have already heard some flack from friends and family. Oh well.
Here is the link:
http://news.hjnews.com/logan_hj/church-trying-to-keep-cultural-stranglehold/article_c5cef6a8-b54c-55e0-acf0-8537b9d15663.html#comments
I also just posted a new blog post enjoy:
http://jonathankmarshall.blogspot.com/2016/03/it-is-ok-to-have-opinion.html
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Posted: 06 March 2016 03:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Amazing that something so moderate as your commentary can be viewed as being a slap in the face to a humble christian organization like the church!
Now I admit that I don't keep close tabs on the probably daily revelations that pour into the COB, but who received the revelation that the will of the people (as in Free Agency) was to be denied, in terms of the orders to put the kibosh on the marijuana bill? Who did ghawd tell, and when did he tell him? (No need to consider that it came through a female, right? How is it that this latter fact, and its basis, seems to be of no concern to mormons?)
Battle on, Jon.
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Posted: 06 March 2016 05:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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One of the biggest naysayers was my BIL, very TBM. I wanted to ask him if the Church came out against Chemotherapy would he stop his wife from her monthly treatments to keep her Cancer in check? I really doubt he would stop it.
My wife as most of you know has major health problems. She has said that if we lived in a State that had legalized medical marijuana she would be lighting up daily, but since she is not than she won't. But she also said that the Church should mind its own business when it comes to each persons individual health treatments and if marijuana will help alleviate most of their symptoms and make life more managable than why not!
I would love to know what sort of "reaching out" the Church does when it comes approaching LDS politicans and bills they are trying to pass that the Church does not agree with?
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Posted: 06 March 2016 07:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Jon Marshall:
One of the biggest naysayers was my BIL, very TBM. I wanted to ask him if the Church came out against Chemotherapy would he stop his wife from her monthly treatments to keep her Cancer in check? I really doubt he would stop it.
My wife as most of you know has major health problems. She has said that if we lived in a State that had legalized medical marijuana she would be lighting up daily, but since she is not than she won't. But she also said that the Church should mind its own business when it comes to each persons individual health treatments and if marijuana will help alleviate most of their symptoms and make life more managable than why not!
I would love to know what sort of "reaching out" the Church does when it comes approaching LDS politicans and bills they are trying to pass that the Church does not agree with?
I don't have the link but read an article recently that said all the church has to do is to voice an opinion. Maybe kind of like when evil old BY used to prophsey that someone was going to be killed and his brainwashed do-gooders would make it happen. Someday--the church of the devil shall fall.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 10 March 2016 07:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I am wondering how much longer Mark Madsen will be a good standing member with some of the things he has said about the Church and their interfering and pressure caused his bill to fail.
The Church has influence and waves it arrogantly in our faces.
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
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Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Swearing Elder
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Utah County CALM meetup for November
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Making peace with my mormon past.... or not.
by Lloyd Dobler
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by Strong Free & Thankful
Don't touch yourself tonight
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Radio West- A must listen! Religious Freedom, what does it mean? Outstanding Program
by skeptic
I met with my Stake President tonight
by Celestial Wedgie
Wrong from the Start
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One more thing for women
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PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
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Portland Monthly Ex-Mormon Meetup - Apr. 10
by LessMon
Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
by Free2Live
"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
by Celestial Wedgie
The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion's Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders
by Jon Marshall
03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
by skeptic
hacking lds inc
by Elder OldDog
Accidentally came out on purpose :)
by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewforum/5/
2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
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[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
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[Southern Utah Pos...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
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Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
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The Community Forum
## Of Mormons, Postmormons, and the Canyon Between
## The Cost of Liberty
## Spiritual Bedrock
## Leaving the Church, But Not Leaving It Alone
##Why Mormons Can’t Understand the Pain of Being Postmormon
## The Lamanite Issue is Not So Much a Matter of Doctrine as it is a Matter of Credibility
## PR Damage Control Team Responds to BoM changes
## Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Myths
## Understanding Homosexuality
## On the Outside Looking in: Surviving the Temple Marriage of a Loved One
## I'm an active Mormon. Is it OK to be here?
## Why People Leave the Church:The VIDEO
## A Recap of Post-Mormon History
## Resources for Those Investigating All Things LDS
Post-Mormon Magazine
##Native American DNA and it's Impact on Mormonism
## Changing Seasons
##Why I'm a Better Mother, Now That I'm not a Mormon
Sound Thinking Magazine
##The Lost Book of Abraham
##Beyond Belief 2006
Peep Stone Magazine
## Relief Society President Released After Confession
## Nodding off on the Rise with 175th General Conference
##Molecule Shortage Lead to Halt of Resurrection
Post-Mormon Scrapbook
## Rough Stone Rolling: A Critical Examination
## Personal Accounts of Leaving Mormonism
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dave (e_nomo)
Hank
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Utah-Texas-Travis
ButchandtheKidR@Ng3rs!23
Fruit Fly
Total members: 10229
Making peace with my mormon past.... or not.
by Lloyd Dobler
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by Strong Free & Thankful
Don't touch yourself tonight
by Matter Unorganized
Radio West- A must listen! Religious Freedom, what does it mean? Outstanding Program
by skeptic
I met with my Stake President tonight
by Celestial Wedgie
Wrong from the Start
by son of perdition
One more thing for women
by scotmama3
PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
by skeptic
Portland Monthly Ex-Mormon Meetup - Apr. 10
by LessMon
Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
by Free2Live
"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
by Celestial Wedgie
The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion's Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders
by Jon Marshall
03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
by skeptic
hacking lds inc
by Elder OldDog
Accidentally came out on purpose :)
by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home
2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
Home
Our Community
Our Library
Our Exit Stories
Member Options
Introduction
For New Visitors
Mission Statement
The Best of PostMormon.org
Click the above icon to go to The Community Discussion Forum, which is the most active area on this website. New members are encouraged to jump in and participate in the discussions. As you do, our House Rules ask that you remain courteous and respectful of others.
Click the above icon to visit our World Map where you can connect with other Post-Mormons in your area. If your part of the world doesn't have a map pin, please consider starting a chapter or becoming an official PostMo' contact person for your area. To find out how, click here and follow the instructions.
Clicking this icon will take you to a page in our Post-Mormon Scrapbook, that lists personal accounts of people who have left Mormonism. Many new members love reading these accounts because it helps them realize that there really are others out there who understand, and can relate to their experience.
The Post-Mormon Community relys on donations from people like you to continue its public awareness program. Whether you can contribute $5, $5,000, or more, you are helping us reach out to others like you, but who still think they are all alone. The Post-Mormon Community is a 501(c)(3) tax exempt organization.
Our next project
will be announced soon.
Tax exempt status.
dave (e_nomo)
Hank
Logged in: 2
Not logged in: 60
Logged in anonymous: 0
(Joined in last 24 hours)
Utah-Texas-Travis
ButchandtheKidR@Ng3rs!23
Fruit Fly
Total members: 10229
Making peace with my mormon past.... or not.
by Lloyd Dobler
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by Strong Free & Thankful
Don't touch yourself tonight
by Matter Unorganized
Radio West- A must listen! Religious Freedom, what does it mean? Outstanding Program
by skeptic
I met with my Stake President tonight
by Celestial Wedgie
Wrong from the Start
by son of perdition
One more thing for women
by scotmama3
PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
by skeptic
Portland Monthly Ex-Mormon Meetup - Apr. 10
by LessMon
Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
by Free2Live
"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
by Celestial Wedgie
The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion's Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders
by Jon Marshall
03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
by skeptic
hacking lds inc
by Elder OldDog
Accidentally came out on purpose :)
by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home
2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
Home
Our Community
Our Library
Our Exit Stories
Member Options
Introduction
For New Visitors
Mission Statement
The Best of PostMormon.org
The mission of PostMormon.org is to provide and maintain systems that facilitate the growth and development of a safe and supportive community for those who leave or are considering leaving the Mormon Church.
Welcome home!
Our next project
will be announced soon.
Tax exempt status.
dave (e_nomo)
Hank
Logged in: 2
Not logged in: 60
Logged in anonymous: 0
(Joined in last 24 hours)
Utah-Texas-Travis
ButchandtheKidR@Ng3rs!23
Fruit Fly
Total members: 10229
Making peace with my mormon past.... or not.
by Lloyd Dobler
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by Strong Free & Thankful
Don't touch yourself tonight
by Matter Unorganized
Radio West- A must listen! Religious Freedom, what does it mean? Outstanding Program
by skeptic
I met with my Stake President tonight
by Celestial Wedgie
Wrong from the Start
by son of perdition
One more thing for women
by scotmama3
PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
by skeptic
Portland Monthly Ex-Mormon Meetup - Apr. 10
by LessMon
Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
by Free2Live
"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
by Celestial Wedgie
The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion's Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders
by Jon Marshall
03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
by skeptic
hacking lds inc
by Elder OldDog
Accidentally came out on purpose :)
by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home
2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Imprompu get-together
[Dead Prophets Soc...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series- March 6th, 2016 Author Dave Nelson
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Open House Meetup: 3/19/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Train ride and picnic Meetup: 2/27/16
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
Home
Our Community
Our Library
Our Exit Stories
Member Options
Introduction
For New Visitors
Mission Statement
The Best of PostMormon.org
Post-Mormons are members of a rapidly growing community of families and individuals who have voluntarily left Mormonism. We choose to no longer base our lives, and the lives of our children, on "truths" dictated by others. We believe that truth is freely available to any honest, diligent seeker regardless of creed, age, race or sexual orientation.
We have felt the butterfly’s metamorphosis. Forces that well up from within have compelled us to grow beyond the limits of Mormonism. And so we have become a loosely knit community of friends and support groups, and endeavor to help those like us who also feel the need to explore meaning, purpose and life beyond Mormonism. We celebrate the wonderful diversity of life as we experience as fully as we can our physical and cultural reality. We perceive ourselves as part of a human tapestry that is rich beyond our ability to comprehend, and wonder at this miracle. We have come to realize that there are more ways to do good, and be good, than we can number. What we once perceived as the “strait and narrow way” has broadened to include all ways that promote individual and collective well-being.
We do not apologize for our inability to fully understand reality or the nature of our own existence. As Albert Einstein said:
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
Some ask if we are anti-Mormon. Our answer is, no, we are not. We feel we are not because we acknowledge and want to keep all the good that came into our lives through Mormonism. We feel we are not because it's not our purpose to encourage people to leave the Church. We feel we are not because many of our family and friends are Mormons and we certainly are not anti-family and friends. But as an organization, we are open about the Church's misrepresentations and the way in which its dogmatism and authoritarianism have proven detrimental to many individuals, families, and communities. As Winston Churchill once said, "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."
We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth. We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of “knowing the truth” and that such arrogance leads to a narrow-minded tribalism that impedes personal growth and fosters a divided community. Some of us choose to continue their spiritual journey through traditional religious means and others of us identify ourselves as atheistic or agnostic. We respect these choices as we do those of the well-informed among our family and friends who choose to remain traditional Mormons. We feel sad for those who choose ignorance of any kind and strongly disagree with the few within Mormonism who encourage ignorance and spread misinformation.
Life is wonderful. We are overcome by feelings of gratitude for the glimpses we occasionally have of its majesty and mystery. And we revel in the opportunity to connect with each other and those of many other walks of life in ways more satisfying than anything we had previously experienced. We would welcome the opportunity to get to know you and invite you to join in the conversation in The Community Forum on this site.
Sincerely,
Our next project
will be announced soon.
Tax exempt status.
dave (e_nomo)
Hank
Logged in: 2
Not logged in: 60
Logged in anonymous: 0
(Joined in last 24 hours)
Utah-Texas-Travis
ButchandtheKidR@Ng3rs!23
Fruit Fly
Total members: 10229
Making peace with my mormon past.... or not.
by Lloyd Dobler
Monday -- Let's Talk about SEX!
by Strong Free & Thankful
Don't touch yourself tonight
by Matter Unorganized
Radio West- A must listen! Religious Freedom, what does it mean? Outstanding Program
by skeptic
I met with my Stake President tonight
by Celestial Wedgie
Wrong from the Start
by son of perdition
One more thing for women
by scotmama3
PostMormon Lecture Series- Don't Look Back For What You Couldn't Find
by skeptic
Portland Monthly Ex-Mormon Meetup - Apr. 10
by LessMon
Worshiping Men, the Love of Money, Jesus a footnote on Easter Sunday
by Free2Live
"No man could have written..." Check out this video.
by Celestial Wedgie
The Causal Link Between Easter and Religion's Proven Ineptitude in Dealing With Sexual Offenders
by Jon Marshall
03/28/16 11 AM Today on Radio West- The unthinkable could happen.
by skeptic
hacking lds inc
by Elder OldDog
Accidentally came out on purpose :)
by Matter Unorganized
Super Hero Jesus
by Stigmata
Missionaries injured in Brussels terrorist attacks talking with media
by WinstonSmith
Stating Opinion vs Teaching
by Free2Live
An Epiphany about Scriptures - learned in English Class
by Brother of Jared
Salt Lake City LGBTQ #WeEXIST Day, April 2
by Rodolfo
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/home
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