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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
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Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
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238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
Newer Comments →
Brie says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:37 pm
I am Brie, Thank you so much for writing this! I love this website and have used it many times! I am honored to be part of it!
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sam says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:47 pm
This video was awsome, im so glad it has gone viral. Great job Brie!
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Terri O'Sullivan says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Well done Brie. Your message will be an inspiration to so many other exJWs out there. When I watched your video and then read all the lovely comments written at the end of the Independent newspaper and all the other sites it was on it made me realise how much love there is in the world for people who have gone through what we went through. Thank you for being so brave for speaking up! x
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Cedars says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:04 pm
You’re a hero Brie!
I’m glad you’ve seen this article. It’s important you understand the magnitude of what you’ve accomplished, and how much we all appreciate your bravery. I’m proud that this website has been helpful for you! :)
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Mama Joy says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:13 pm
Bravo! I’m so proud of you for speaking out and I know God is proud of you too! They are wolves in sheeps clothing and you no longer have the wool pulled over your eyes! Celebrate today and every day you are free!
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Darlene Alexander says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:36 pm
I admire your bravery, Brie! I know how hard it must of been to get up there and speak about such personal subjects, but what a wonderful job you did! The more we can expose JWs as the dangerous cult they are, the more people we can keep from being mislead by them – and hope we can help to pull people out as well. We are so proud of you!
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JJ says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:43 pm
Brie, you’re awesome!
I only wish that I had figured out this cult when I was your age!
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David says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:05 am
Brie thank you soo much for having the courage and taking the time to put together such an honest, open speech. This video has touch soo many people already and will be a testament to the damage the Jehovah’s Witnesses have and continue to do. I wish you the best in life!
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Sam says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:58 am
Brie,
Your presentation was beautiful and courageous.
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Excelsior! says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Congratulations, Brie!
Your honest and compassionate speech has touched many hearts, including mine.
I hope your Graduation Day is wonderful and I wish you all the luck in the world in your studies at University!
Welcome to your freedom to choose. It’s a wild ride but a satisfying one.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Rainbow says:
May 28, 2015 at 1:00 am
You go girl!
Want to really hit the media? Send your video to the Ellen Degeneres Show. She often features students.
Thank you for you courage Brie! You are loved.
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M. says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:38 pm
Well done brave lady!
One person can make difference!
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anonymous says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:45 pm
Brie’s video was posted just 4 days ago and it’s now well over 400,000 views. I don’t think the Society can sweep this one under the rug and everything she said in that video can be backed up in Watchtower publications. There is no way the Society can say that she’s an apostate “liar”. It is too bad she only had 15 minutes because she didn’t touch on the 2 witness rule for child abuse and she didn’t touch on blood but what she packed into that 15 minutes knocked the ball out of the park!!!
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JJ says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Yup, hundreds of thousands of views for Brie’s video. This is the Watchtower Society’s worst nightmare-come-true! How can the WT say that a young girl is an ‘apostate’?!? How can they claim that this young girl doesn’t know what she is talking about when these are her own experiences?!?
Oh boy, I bet there will be heated, round table discussions on damage control at Watchtower headquarters.
It will be interesting to see what happens now.
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William Niles says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Well done Brie, you have stood bravely. The average JW will look at your video that has been posted on the medial and label you as a liar/slanderer, etc.. Anytime, ANYTHING bad is said about JWs then to them it’s all nothing but lies..but if that same media ramps/raves about JWs then they have no problem plastering it all over jw.org. What they deem as truth is only when it suits THEIR purpose. Your comments hit the nail on the head and you speak absolute truth and JWs are simply living in denial. In their own Elder’s manual, it says clearly that if Elders discover that a husband committed adultery and learn that he lied about the extent of his adultery, they have been instructed NOT to tell his wife about it and will simply say, “we encourage you to talk with your husband”. So in a case where the woman decides to forgive him and sleeps with him, but then afterwards learns that he lied about the extent of his adultery; from that point on she can’t divorce him without being disfellowshipped because when she resumed relations with him she technically forgave him…the problem is that the Elders KNOWINGLY withheld vital information from her that would have helped her to make a decision in the first place! In the case that the woman commits adultery, he CAN sit in on her committee, but they WON’T allow her to sit in on his judicial committee. There are well-documented cases where the Elders knew that a man had molested a child…but did NOT tell his wife that her own husband molested a child.
If you are a JW–you will label this brave young woman as someone who is attacking you, slandering you, etc.. There is simply TOO MUCH irrefutable proof that what Bree says is true…and you’re own Bible clearly says that it only takes 2-3 witness to establish the matter as truth. There are literally THOUSANDS of witnesses to establish these matters as truth….WAKE UP PEOPLE.
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William Niles says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:03 pm
Sorry, bad typing. I meant to say that anytime the very same media who they say slanders them/lies about them publishes anything good about them, then all of the sudden they have no problem posting it all over jw.org, sharing the experience in assemblies, etc.. It’s only what THEY establish as truth and only what they want people to hear.
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Designer Stubble says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:08 pm
Thanks Brie – You are our Hero. Loved your video and your letter at the friendly atheist. Your parents can be very proud of you. Happy to read you will be off to University.
John – Good to write up on this. Positive blog.
It will take time, but the WTBTS cannot withstand the power that Internet and Social Media gives to our voices.
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Innocent Son says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:35 pm
Brie, I applaud your bravery, I hope that this inspires many other to come forward and tell the truth about the Org. Because of the Internet and websites like this many others will be able to see behind the shadows and break free….Deep respect and much love to you and your family.
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Grace says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:48 pm
@Brie,
Bravo, you have pressed the start button, the missing link that will get to the masses. Why? Because many other religions will have to stand up & look at the way that they are treating their followers as well. I have a young friend who is your age going through something similar (but not as cruel) with her religion which is orthodox.
You give me hope that when I am no longer here, your generation will be able to grow up from the stifleness of archaic, patriarchal religions.
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Ted says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:05 pm
I listened to Brie’s video a number of times, and was very
proud of her. At certain points she had to fight back tears
but continued on to give a clear, factual and honest
exposition of a hierarchical and sometimes cruel “Religion”?
Women at the very bottom and the GB at the top, who
countenance no dissent.
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Pickled brain says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:36 pm
@Brie.THIS IS A BRILLIANT SPEECH Highlighting the REAL TRUTH what goes on in this Religion with WOMEN Treated like Second Class Citizens & Yes the LOVE is CONDITIONAL!!!
This video by Brie is a Brilliant Answer to Andrew who commented on the post before this one that his 4 children were well adjusted kids. Well if anyone would like to read my response to his comments,please feel free to look at my reply & I am open to be corrected.
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Pickled brain says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:43 pm
@ William Niles . REALLY ENJOYED Your COMMENT about how the Elders Manuel’Shepherd the Flock’ TREAT WOMEN as THIRD RATE CITIZENS ‘ !! IT IS DISGUSTING & OUTRAGEOUS The way WOMEN are treated Except when the GB want them to be Pioneers so the women can peddle the Literature!!
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William Niles says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:20 am
@ Pickled brain: It’s those kinds of things that WT doesn’t want young women, like Brie, to know about. I openly showed my own wife those points in the Elders Manual…she simply couldn’t not believe what she was reading. I couldn’t either and I had to read it 2-3 times to let it sink in. Or, how about letting an appointed Elder/M.S. serve in the congregation…even if after he confesses to have committed a disfellowshipping offense years before and not even lift a single finger against him? But yet, with innocent women like Brie, the won’t hesitate to disfellowship, label them Apostate., etc? If you read the Elder’s manual regarding those points I mention, you’ll see that there’s not ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE quoted to justify their reasoning on those particular points…the only thing I can think of that justifies it is immoral men in Brooklyn who are THEMSELVES guilty of the very things that they wrote about and refused to confess them to anyone. And they will label anyone, like Brie, as a liar/slanderer who exposes the hypocrisy. There’s a reason why they tell JWs not to listen to folks like Brie…for fear of discovering the REAL truth.
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Bryan linkoski says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:06 pm
How fitting that “the redemption song” by Bob Marley came on just as I was reading this. It’s a blessing when one is released from mental slavery from such a stifling existence. It may be that the order or there disorder is rapidly changing. Knowledge is power and it takes great courage to do whT this young lady did.
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Michael says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:32 pm
You have my deepest respect Brie.Thank you for you courage.Your video brought tears to me and my wife.We have experience the loss of our families and 2 of our children.I shared the video on my Facebook page.We keep hoping things will change.
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anonymous says:
May 26, 2015 at 5:21 pm
If anybody who is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses does not believe that the Watchtower teaches that it is considered fornication if a girl or woman doesn’t defend herself to the death if they were raped and survived and then if they do survive being raped, they would be considered as having committed fornication unless they can prove to a committee of 3 men that they screamed and fought against the rape and didn’t invite the rape by her dress and being alone in dangerous areas, this is directly from the Watchtower magazine, 1968 June 1st article under the title of “The Christian’s View of Self-Defense”. This religion is not only a dangerous religion to belong to because of the blood issue and having to die rather than allow being to be raped, but it is very dangerous to married women because women can not leave an abusive husband and remarry (as Brie brought out in her wonderful speech) and if they do remarry, they will be disfellowshipped for adultery, making it almost impossible to get away from an abusive husband.
Women in the Witness religion are 2nd class citizens in every way possible as Brie brought out so amazingly in her speech.
This is from the 1968 Watchtower on pages 347-348
under the subheading: Attempted rape.
“If you are a Christian woman, what should you do if, in spite of all precautions, you are set upon by a rapist? If you cannot deter him by reasoning, or by calling on the name of Jehovah, then what? As a Christian you are under obligation to resist. This resistance includes screaming and creating as much disturbance as possible to try and frighten off the attacker and attract help. If the attack continues and you cannot break free to flee, then you would be justified even to inflict damage on your assailant if necessary. Resistance is imperative, because the rapist is after, not just money, but your virtue. An issue of integrity to Jehovah’s laws is involved here. So by no means would it be proper quietly to submit to rape, as that would be consenting to fornication. – 1 Thess. 4:3
The principle is like that set out at Deuteronomy chapter 22. There it states: “In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, you must also bring both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die.” Why would the girl have died under that Law covenant? The scripture continues: “The girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city.” If she did not make the effort to scream, she was viewed as consenting to fornication. But if the woman screamed and resisted and nonetheless was overpowered, then she was not guilty of complicity: “The girl screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.” Deut. 22:23-27.
Would it be different if the man had a weapon and threatened to kill you if you did not submit? No, the Scriptures plainly state that Christians are under obligation to “flee from fornication.” (1 Cor. 6:18) It is true that you face the possibility of death in this case. But you have no guarantee that if you meekly submit, your assailant will not kill you anyhow to avoid identification.”
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Mike dennis says:
May 26, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Great speech. Well written and well thought out. It started out very factual, good background. It showed sincerity and genuine concern. My best wish is that my grown sons wake up and someday see the org as it really is. This effort by Brie was from the heart. If it wakes just one person up, it’s worth all her distress in making this.
I know that Brie may not be fully prepared to live her new life apart from WT and old ‘ friends ‘, but I sure wish her the best. Brave girl will become a great woman. Thank you, aloha
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Ken says:
May 26, 2015 at 8:02 pm
“The final straw came during in 9th grade when one of my friends and I went to the beach. I had been texting a boy from another JW congregation and sent him a picture of us on the beach… which meant we were in bikinis. Unfortunately, his mother went through his phone and came across our “horrible” photo. It led to Church elders coming over to my house to counsel me.
They told me I was guilty of making him masturbate. They even made me admit I got him to do it. That was never my intention, obviously, but having that conversation with Church leaders may be the most embarrassing moment of my life. I don’t think my face has ever turned so red. They made me feel dirty for enjoying my time at the beach and chatting with a friend — my other picked up on that, too, and couldn’t believe I was in trouble with the congregation for the crime of wearing a bathing suit.
After that, I was done. I no longer wanted to identify as a Jehovah’s Witness.”
I sorry to be critical but Brie were embarrassed when you said that quoted above to your classmates? I think although the Elders were stupid to counsel you over the bikini photo which in this day and age is called sexting , it may have looked innocent , but the dummy elders it was serious enough for them jump in . The boy’s mother in the logical sense should have talked to your mother about it . Never involve the elders in anything .
I was DF because I and my parents faded out of the sect after my poor father had a blood transfusion . I was lucky that I never was baptized as a teen , my parents did . It amazes me that petty things are judged as “sins” while molestation is swept under the rug in this sect these days . However I did share many things with you as I grew up ,with such as isolation that I still fight today.
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Shanti says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:03 pm
Sending a picture of friends in bathing suits at the beach is not “sexting”.
Reply
Brent says:
May 26, 2015 at 11:22 pm
One thing is for sure, the theocratic ministry school did a great job teaching this brave young woman how to speak in public. Great to see she is putting it to good use as well. Good on you girl.
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life's about choices says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:41 am
brought a tear to my eye..Thank you brie…We have 2 older kids than you…fortunately they laugh now and we’re very close with some great friends….you will be ok…..go enjoy life from this day on..xx
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Bad Penny says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:52 am
Dear Brie –
YOU ARE AMAZING! You have been so brave!
We all love you so much for what you have done.
I’m so glad that you are in touch with JW Survey so that you can find out all TTATT, but mostly that we are all cheering you on.
Go forward now with your young life, look to the future, try not to look behind because the past is painful, as we have all discovered.
I have often thought, how can one individual make a difference to how people view this religion?
Girl, you just did it!
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Bad Penny says:
May 27, 2015 at 2:33 am
BRIE –
Just read your ‘Friendly atheists’ article.
You will probably be summoned to a judicial hearing. You don’t have to suffer the indignity! Just tell them you no longer want to be under the authority of men in suits. If you disassociate yourself it will possibly take a week before they announce it, which may give you the time to graduate before the rest of your family shun you.
When I and my husband became witnesses, we never realised that higher education was a no no! We found out when our son went to university. He was advised by a C.O. to give up his course and reach out for ‘spiritual’ goals. Thankfully he resisted the advice, and with our full backing, went on to gain a first at Uni. He now has a great job and a nice car, all he wants now is a great lady to share his life – he never could find one in the congregation. Pity he didn’t meet you!
All of us have now left the stranglehold of JW dom.
So, be strong, do well in your career, I’m sure that you will succeed.
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Andrea says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:12 am
Brie is a wonderful inspiration of courage and maturity in the way she approached her subject. I can say that I wasn’t that mature even at college-going age, nor as brave to openly talk about my upbringing or religion even with good friends outside the org. I hope she’ll open up the eyes of many who may be sticking their head in the sand and hoping that all the truthful and bad publicity about the JWs will go away.
I’d like to however refute @Brent’s well-meant comment that she has somehow become a good public speaker thanks to the “Theocratic Ministry School”. It *may* have helped, however, it’s more likely that it was thanks to a good education and how own talent and/or hard work. Attributing this to a witness education only takes away from Brie’s well-earned praise.
If there is any request to her about “judicial” hearings or committees, I would not be recommending that she disassociate herself or give them any answers, unless she wishes to do so herself. Brie has obviously managed to think for herself and doesn’t need a group of religious bullies (some elders) to tell her what to do or hopefully feel any need to play up to them, do their bidding or reply to them in any way. As has been pointed out on Cedar’s and jwfacts websites, doing so because they tell you too only gives them more power over you. There’s no need to play along.
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alanv says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:39 am
I will be watching closely the number of views this video has. Today (wednesday 27th May) it is up to 529000. Truly amazing and great that a young person is able to help so many others see the bad side to this cult
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Ted says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:18 am
Brie was chastised by elders for sending beach photo
of herself and friend in bikini’s to a JW, boy acquaintance.
Had Brie been a well known celebrity, no action would have
been taken. The tennis sisters, who publicly declare they are
JWs, both have posed nude for a well known magazine.
Has anyone heard of them being reprimanded ?
Not being baptised is not a get out, as such ones can be
“disassociated” for “Unchristian” conduct.
So why is the org, willing to drop its own immutable laws
where celebrities are concerned ? They don’t want their
cruel practices of disfellowshipping and shunning exposed.
Brie wonders whether she, will be disfellowshipped, in view
of the publicity her exposition has caused?
Somehow I think not !
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alan says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:32 am
How true is everything that Brie says. I came into the “Truth” in 1969 aged 18 and I introduced my future wife into it and we were married in 1972. We have 4 children. My oldest girl [born 1972] was raped just after she turned 16. Someone we knew [not a JW] asked if she could babysit his children while he took his wife to the hospital. She didn’t want to do it but I [stupidly] persuaded her and as a result she was raped that evening by him. We went to the police and also the Elders. Their only concern was had she resisted and screamed. She said that it was impossible to scream or resist as he was stronger than she was and also because he had a knife and also his hands were around her throat. I was informed that seeing that she was an unbaptized publisher, I had to bear the guilt and that a committee would decide if I was guilty of aiding and abetting the rape as I had allowed her to babysit. They also informed me that I could possibly be disfellowshipped as by going to the police, I had brought the name of Jehovah and his organisation into disrepute.
My immediate reaction was to protest and remind them that the rape had already been reported in the newspapers and that I might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb and that I would inform the reporter that I was being thrown out of the “religion” and explain why. Needless to say that the Elders climbed down but I was removed from all responsibility in the KH and a talk was given to the congregation stressing that worldly authorities have no part to play in Jehovah’s organisation. Did this put me off? No it did not I am sad to say.
We moved congregations but it was no better. My children were considered a danger to the others, so much so that my second child [a daughter] became so rebellious over the way we were being treated that she became hostile to the organisation. She was 13 yrs old. The Elders advised me to “get rid” of her as she was a danger to my other children so I telephoned the local authorities and had her placed into a children’s home. I did all of this as I truly believed that it was what Jehovah wanted. Now I realise what a clutz I was.
In 1991 my wife and I sat down with the other 3 children and explained that we were leaving the organisation. We already knew that the 3rd child had no interest in the “Truth” but we were concerned about my son who was only 10 at the time. We explained that we would allow him to go to the KH and go on field service if he so wished to do as we would find someone to take him. He thought for a moment and his reply was “If I leave with you, does that mean that I can have Birthday and Christmas presents?” I said, if that’s what you want. He then replied “good as I know what I want for my first birthday present.” The rest is history apart from that my daughter who was raped had no counselling as the Elders would not allow it and now lives in the USA [I am in the UK] and refuses to have any contact with me. She tells everyone that I am dead and in her eyes I am. I have to accept that and do so but I know that the trauma she went through is what makes he r think that.
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Excelsior! says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:54 pm
Sir,
Whatever happened to the poor child you put into care? Is she ok?
You have my sympathy, sir. As do your family.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Charles Huff says:
May 27, 2015 at 6:21 am
I’m proud of Brie for making a stand, Brie, if you’re reading this, way to go my friend.
What Brie has done is show others that making a stand can change things and shown us that we can stand on our own.
After receiving over 400k hits on her video, we now know that interest is in the subject and we can expose the JWs like no time ever before. If enough people make a stand, then it may reverse disfellowship the JWs and can possibly lead to their downfall.
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David says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:33 am
Well done Brie! You have been very brave and effective in exposing the shameful bully character of jw.org
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Pickled brain says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:32 am
MOST JWs especially Young ones are TRAPPED in the Organisation because of the Encouragement to get BAPTISED at 11,12,13 or younger & then FRIGHTENED of LOSING FAMILY & FRIENDS if they ASK GENUINE Questions which a PRE- TEEN getting Baptised would never have thought of!!
SO WELL DONE BRIE for INSPIRING many Young JWs to Have the COURAGE to Just HONESTLY QUESTION Their BELIEFS!!! & Be REALLY AWARE of JW TRUE BEGINNINGs & HISTORY!
If WE CAN STARVE the ORGANISATION of YOUNG BLOOD?? ( I Don’t Know if that’s the Appropriate Word) Then the Organisation will SLOWLY DIE with only the OLD & DIEHARDS Remaining!!
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:40 am
Does anyone have a link download the latest Elder Book? Shepherd the Flock, I think…KS 12 or 16 is it?
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:30 am
Nevermind, found it on JW leaks.
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StrongHaiku says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:15 am
Brie, you are truly remarkable.
When I was a JW at your age (over 30 years ago), I did not have the self-awareness, intellectual integrity, and courage to do what you did. For that, I am truly ashamed. I hope others take up your example. Nicely done.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:32 am
Strong–I don’t think you should feel shame. Indoctrination isn’t something we can always avoid, especially for those born into it. And, even when doubts are there in a young person, the consequences you were trained to avoid are terrifying for youths and often prevent rebellion.
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Cedars says:
May 27, 2015 at 11:04 am
I’ve updated the numbers cited in the article to reflect the fact that Brie’s video is now comfortably past the half-million threshold.
Amazing!
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Elka Tire says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:04 pm
Cedar, if I send you the Spanish translation for the video, could you add it?
Thanks.
El Kato
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Cedars says:
May 27, 2015 at 2:16 pm
Yes :)
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M. says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:08 pm
All together we are strong. This should continue!
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Elka Tire says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:04 pm
I meant the spanish subtitles!
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brandnew says:
May 27, 2015 at 3:23 pm
New word : BRIE BRAVE.
I hope to be more ” BRIE BRAVE” in the following years to come.
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JWIntellect says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:29 pm
Brie > Governing Body
BRIE 2016!
Thank you very much, Brie, for having the courage to stand up and speak the truth about what goes on in this highly secretive religion.
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minion says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:00 pm
Brie, well done faithful mate!
Talk about doubling your talents and minas, well done faithful mate!
This must be Jehovah’s blessing and hand moving the view counter.
Brie, I truly believe most of us have contributed to the effect of moving the view counter by creative means. That being said, you just don’t know how moved and touched I have been. I may have a larger Business network than most, and they got a copy of your video, and I have also ask to “pass it forward”. . . . Together we can move mountains.
You never know who may be dropping by or calling you. You never know.
I predict within 8 hours from now you will peak at 600,000.
Currently your at 560,655
Your average per 24 hour movement is 100,000 views.
This might be the beginning – for the right cause.
Keep strong, stay focus, seek peace, keep hope alive and courage is the conquest of fear!
and Brie, Congrats Senior 2015 !!
.
Reply
Worthy says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:56 pm
Brie, I’m so glad you made that decision to speak up against the treatment of women and children in the Org.
You are making a huge difference and educating so many as to the realities of what really goes on behind those plastered smiles they see at their front doors holding the watchtower and awake.
I hope this is just the beginning to what we will hear from you. You have a bright future ahead of you and I truly hope for your sake when you walk the stage you have all your loved ones cheering you on. If not, just remember you have all of us cheering you on in spirit!! Congratulations, and welcome to your ” new normal “
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Everyday Explorer says:
May 28, 2015 at 6:22 am
Well done to Brie, a remarkable and inspirational activist! Our voices are growing and reaching more and more people, fellow consciousness-raisers. How liberating to see TTATT (the truth about the ‘Truth’) being exposed time and time again. Let’s all carry on keeping up the pressure in our individual ways. Day by day, we’re getting there!
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Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:23 am
@Brie . ABSOLUTELY STUNNING. You YOUNG LADY Have Eloquently & ACCURATELY have Stated the REAL TRUTH what it is like for POOR WOMEN in this CRUEL ORGANISATION!!
I watched it for a Second Time your Speech!!
ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!
YOU WILL WAKE UP MANY,MANY YOUNGSTERS & WOMEN of All Ages to Finally make a Stand & NOT PUT UP with THIS SUBJUGATION of Women RULED & DICTATED to by 7 ARROGANT MEN in NEW YORK!!’
RISE UP SISTERS & BE BOLD & Follow the EXAMPLE of BRIE!!!
Reply
Kat says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:04 am
Thank you Brie, you really held your own on such an emotional issue, you presented your speech with control, you did not sound hateful or bitter something that could turn many of, but rather showed class and intelligence, you spoke also from your heart and showed a loving caring concern for JW. Thank you so much, I hope all goes well for you with your family before your day. x
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Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:27 am
@Brie . I Forgot to Add that WITHOUT WOMEN the JW Organisation WOULD CRUMBLE OVERNIGHT!!
Because the VAST Number of PIONEERS are SISTERS who conduct Bible Studies & Also Have a Great Influence on their Children as they grow up to baptism!!
Reply
David says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:22 am
This is soo very true. My biggest influences in the borg were women who were long time pioneers. They would have been wonderful Elders, CO’s etc. Perhaps there would have been better emphasis placed on caring for young people had they allowed women to serve in equal capacity as men do. Which by the way is how the scripture describes how Holy Spirit was poured out in the first century. Somehow God’s Spirit was mistakenly given in equal measure to women. Silly Holy Spirit, don’t you know that you are going against the Governing Body! /endrant.
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Kat says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:42 am
I agree Pickled, the vast amount of work in the ministry is done by women, the brothers say its because men have to work and provide for families or have many more responsibilities in the congregation, but there are many more women JW than males, and for many single women they have to provide for themselves, and in some cases women without husbands with children have to provide for them as well as being the spiritual head, they have to do both the male and female work in the family.
There are more women in the org than men always been that way unless JW are having more male children than female then that takes decades to catch up.
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anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 8:07 am
Brie gave 3 women’s experiences that she knows of how women are subjugated in the Watchtower and abused. In the 1972 Watchtower January 1st article page 31 on questions from the readers, the question was: “Do homosexual acts on the part of a married person constitute a Scriptural ground for divorce, freeing the innocent mate to remarry?”
The final answer to that question was no and this is the Watchtower’s answer why it is that the innocent mate is not fee to remarry: “While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken. It is broken only by acts that make an individual “one flesh” with a person of the opposite sex other than his or her legal marriage mate.” (What it was saying here is that since a child couldn’t be produced this way, then it wasn’t fornication and grounds for a scriptural divorce.)
This same policy that was discussed there of the Watchtower organization goes back to at least the 1950’s so it had been over at least 20 years that if a woman either caught her husband having sex with another man or animal, that she was not free to remarry scripturally as the man had not broken the marriage bond.
There were women who this had happened to up until the year of 1972 at least and so while they could leave their husbands, they were not free to remarry or else they would have been disfellowshipped and shunned.
This was cruel treatment for finding out that their husbands had had sex with animals or another man. If the husband had had sex with another woman, then the wife was free to remarry without getting disfellowshipped.
Just as Brie brought out in her speech, when a person finds themselves in a situation like that or any other situation like that, they will get absolutely no help from the Organization or the congregation and are left to pick up the pieces by themselves. Does this sound reasonable in any way? Many women weren’t aware that the Society could do this to a woman until they saw that question from the readers in that 1972 Watchtower.
Ray Franz was on the Governing Body at the time and even though he went along with that first ruling in the January Watchtower, it didn’t seem right to him and he started researching the topic and by the end of the year, his uncle, who was the president of the Society at the time, agreed with him that changed it’s view and decided that yes, if a person found their mate having sex with another of the same sex or an animal, that it would be pornea and grounds for a scriptural divorce as brought out in the December 15, 1972 Watchtower page 767. The Governing Body disfellowshipped Ray Franz but if it hadn’t been for him being on the Governing Body at the time, who knows? They might still teach such a backward and stupid doctrine.
Ask yourself this question. How could God be directing the Watchtower organization if during all those years, the Watchtower was condemning the innocent mate to shunning if they had divorced their husband and remarried? Was the Society teaching lies during all that time? Why would God be telling the Society lies and forcing it’s followers to follow those lies and if not be disfellowshipped and shunned?
Ask yourself this question. How would you know when it’s a lie or when it’s the truth then? At what point or year, can you decide which is the truth or a lie since during all those years, the Society either wasn’t listening to Jehovah or Jehovah wasn’t talking through them?
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Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 8:32 am
@Anonymous. VERY ,VERY WELL PUT your Argumentation back in 1972 was Farcical on why Women couldn’t scripturally divorce if they found their husband having SEX with Another MAN or TABITHA the CAT or … ROVER the DOG !! I mean if the GB are SPIRIT DIRECTED then My NAME is Babylon the Great ??? MUST BE FUN RIDING the ‘WILD BEAST’!!!
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Exhausted says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:09 am
At the time that the Society was condoning those things
Would it not hold true that if a woman had her tubes
Tied or a hysterectomy she would have been absolved
Of a fornication committee had she erred sexually???
After all, she could not reproduce could she? The answer
Is obvious since women were subjugated to the lowest
Form of creature in the eyes of those men.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:29 am
@Exhausted, in the 1975 Watchtower pages 158-160 a woman couldn’t get a hysterectomy unless she had had numerous c-sections and so could die if she got pregnant again and men couldn’t be sterilized either unless their wife’s health was in serious danger of getting pregnant again. If either of them got sterilized for any other reason, the man would lose his privileges in the congregation.
By, 1985, the Society said it was up to the couple to use sterilization as a means of birth control (because from 1975-1985 some men’s sterilizations could be reversed) but they couldn’t talk about it to anybody else in the congregation so that others in the congregation wouldn’t “lose respect” for them (May 1, 1985 Watchtower page 31)
Here is one more case where the Society feels they have a right to stick their noses into women’s personal business. The Society has always told women they are allowed to take birth control pills but if they wanted a hysterectomy, the woman had to answer to the Society for it and if they had a hysterectomy, the woman had to convince the elders that if she got pregnant again that it would kill her.
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JJ says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:07 pm
I always wondered, “Why would the GB, the elders or any other Jehovah’s Witness care if you used birth control, if you got divorced or what kind of sex you had and with whom?!?”
I mean really, why go through all the trouble to think about it, investigate and then chastise someone??? Who could be bothered???
Is it the sense of power that makes these small men worry so much about what you do when you are naked? Do they really feel that God cares about this or that?
Even though I really wanted to ‘reach out’ and help, and I enjoyed giving talks, I never wanted to hear about someone’s private lives especially if there were matters that were sensitive or embarrassing. (I would have told anyone who was having weird sex to say some Hail Mary’s and Our Fathers)
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airborne says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:37 am
What a powerful video. Amazing the courage she has at such a young age.
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Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:47 am
@Kat. YOU Are SO RIGHT! Women are Hit with a Double Whammy!! They are in many instances are the MAIN BREADWINNERS & DO the MAJORITY of the Preaching Work as there are SO MANY Broken Homes in the Truth nowadays .Its CRAZY how Many Stepfamilies there are & two married couples in our congregation in their 60s have separated & living in separate accommodation but still in the same congregation & both still answering in the Watchtower & in the field ministry!!
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danman says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:51 am
What struck me was the respect that Brie’s fellow students paid her while delivering her speech. There was not any snickering, or rudeness displayed.
Obviously Brie had the respect of her peers prior to delivering this awesome expose! You are truly an ‘honor’ student. Thanks for the effort and personal sacrifice in putting yourself on the line. Courage is the proper word.
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Rosie says:
May 28, 2015 at 12:20 pm
Brie, you are to be applauded. You delivered a very heartfelt speech. It must have taken great strength to speak about something so personal.
It was years after I left the Org, before I could even mention the words “Jehovah’s Witness” without feeling complete shame and humiliation, such was the stigma I felt at having been a JW.
I really empathise with you over your experience with the Elders after the beach photo. They are so quick to turn even the most innocent thing into something dirty and sex related. (I think it only reflects what is in their own hearts and minds).
On one occasion as a 16yr old at a convention I was seen talking to a young single brother from a different congregation. It was all very innocent, if I recall correctly, I think we were actually discussing our favourite Bryan Adams song!! (No doubt discussing worldly music was a sin in itself; they weren’t so liberal in my day). But I was swooped upon; dragged away to my embarrassment and treated as though I had been up to all sorts of shenanigans with him, and “my behaviour” then got brought up at a later Elders meeting. Very humiliating, and damaging for a young girl! Of course, nothing was said to the young brother – I was the one made out to be the “Temptress!”
By the way, I passed your video to a friend of mine who has no JW background. She too was very moved by it and told me that she thought you came across as a lovely girl and that you had delivered a powerful message.
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
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Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Charles Costante says:
May 28, 2015 at 2:56 pm
“On one occasion as a 16yr old at a convention I was seen talking to a young single brother from a different congregation. ……….. But I was swooped upon; dragged away to my embarrassment and treated as though I had been up to all sorts of shenanigans with him, ……”
Rosie, you sound as though you’ve been through the mill with that stupid cult. Unfortunately, they can’t have a life and have nothing better to do than speculate about other people’s. I remember at one District convention in the seventies I was asked by my sister if I would look after my young nephew for a while during one of the breaks (something had come up which she needed to attend to) so I took him by the hand and we went for a walk. Along the way I bumped into a sister from my congregation and we started chatting. She then took my nephew’s other hand and we continued walking. Well, within a couple of hours the JW grapevine had both of us engaged and there was speculation about when we would marry. I find it amusing now, but was quite annoyed at the time.
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anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 4:39 pm
There is a sister and brother in my congregation that love the elders and make very moving comments at meetings (when I attended) about what a wonderful job the elders do etc. and how fortunate our congregation is to have such “loving” brothers as our elders. What those people don’t know is that when their son was about 16 years old, he liked a young girl from a neighboring congregation and at one of our circuit assemblies, one of the brothers from the young girl’s kingdom hall, was telling my husband and me how the brothers from the girl’s kingdom hall were all taking turns following the young man around, making sure that he didn’t grab that girl and rape her in the bushes during the lunch breaks.
If the brother and sister (the mom and dad) in my old congregation had any idea that those men were following their son around like that, thinking he was going to rape that girl, I wonder if their comments about how “loving” the elders would be then?
If I ever get called before a committee, that is one of the things that I will tell the elders that I am going to do is to tell that sister and her husband about what happened at that assembly concerning their 16 year old boy and we will see just how long they would stay in this “wonderful and loving” religion then.
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Queen Elsa says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:10 pm
Brie : I was emotionally involved and cried when you cried during the video . I was raised as a witness, then my family stopped attending when I was ten, but a lot of the damage had been done. My mother was murdered by her second husband in the late 80s. So needless to say, I had questions. I progressed and later served in the circuit work with my spouse.
Even fiber of my body tells me this religion is wrong and I can’t see any “good God” backing it. Your testimony of the women added more reason for me to feel the way I do… Thanks so much for your courage and honesty!
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Willows says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:48 am
It just go’s to show there is a sense of justice in all persons young and old. It can not be covered over, put under the carpet, it will come to the surface and be expressed. What Brie has related is true and others have been raped and gone to elders for help only to be accused of shocking things. I remember one circuit overseer saying some of these elders would not be appointed in other congregations, so the standards are all over the place. When a person comes for help, that is what they should get. Be comforted and reassured.
The lack of follow up to help shows a lack of love and concern, then to call people names show they are not following Christ. There is a saying the fish stinks from the head down. Freedom from oppression is calling out loud and clear. It is true what go’s around comes around. With the judgement they give, it will be given to them.
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Ted says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:37 am
@anonymous, Your account of the brother being followed
by elders, to check on his actions, is like the Gospel narrative
at Mark 3: 1-6. There the Pharisees followed Jesus closely
to see if he would break the Sabbath Law.
I don’t think Jesus would qualify as an elder today. He applied
the Law with “Equity” ( fairness ) and humanity, not rigidly
I know that many elders are reasonable and have good qualities
but they are constrained by the rule book, and this can make them
hard and unyielding.
As Brie rightly says this is a “Hierarchy”. At the top are men who
act like the Pharisees, stifling the individual conscience and pressing
elders, and everyone else , into the same inflexible pattern.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:01 am
Ted, I think there are lots and lots of really good elders who don’t act like pharisees and really love the congregation and wouldn’t follow young ones around and treat them like criminals when they haven’t even done anything wrong but there are also a lot who would follow a young one around like those elders were doing to that young fellow from my congregation.
I know the reason they didn’t “trust” that young man is because he wasn’t real regular out in service or meetings and he was quiet.
Once when my son was about 10 or 11, he was visiting at a friend’s house who was a Witness and his friend from the Hall lived right down the street from us. My son and his friend who was about a year older were talking about visiting another young boy from the Kingdom Hall and his friend’s mom was in earshot of them talking and the mother of my son’s friend (a Witness also) told her son that she didn’t want him to go and visit that other kid because the other kid wasn’t baptized and so wasn’t “good association”.
My son then got the impression then that since he wasn’t baptized yet, that then in order to be considered “good association” that he also must get baptized because he got the impression loud and clear from his friend’s mother that he also must not be considered “good association” since he wasn’t baptized. So then my son decided to get baptized and went through the questions with the elders. At the time, the elders said he wasn’t ready but by the next assembly they did let him get baptized.
It isn’t just the elders who can be judgmental and Pharisaical. The Watchtower organization taught us all to be judgmental and Pharisaical. We were taught that our kids were not to associate with anybody who didn’t go to meetings regularly and answer at the meetings and go in service every week and talk about how they wanted to pioneer when they got of school and on and on.
If a kid didn’t look up the scriptures at the meetings and have them written down in the margins it would show that that kid just wasn’t good enough for our kids to associate with and could drag our kid down “spiritually” and so to make sure our kids were good “association”, we had to make sure that our kids answered at the meetings and underlined their Watchtowers in bright markers to make sure everyone around could see how well our kids did their lessons and we had to make sure that our kids talked about how much they wanted to pioneer etc. and how disgusting it was to even to consider going to college. We had to make sure that our kids took notes at assemblies and we had to make dam sure that our kids sat quietly at the meetings when they were little and to make sure that we were really good examples, we’d beat the crap out of our kids in the back of the hall in the bathroom so everyone could hear them scream. We wanted our kids to be accepted and have friends at the Hall so that is what we did so they would have friends at the Kingdom Hall because we knew they weren’t allowed to have any friends who weren’t Witnesses and besides we thought that if we “inculcated” the “truth” into them that it would save them through Armageddon. All that was so drummed into us from the Society’s literature that we were all turned into Pharisees. The Society wants all of the Witnesses to be “proud” to be Witnesses and most are very proud (not in a good way). That is how we were trained by the Organization to be as parents to our kids. Is it any wonder that hardly any of those kids want anything to do with the “truth” when they grow up?
The last I looked, I think Brie’s video will reach the 600,000 mark by the end of the day. She has over 5,000 likes and only 287 dislikes.
All those Witnesses who clicked dislike would like to think that those kinds of elders that Brie talked about would be in other congregations and not their own but if they ever got molested and raped like those sisters she talked about, then and only then would they understand all the 5,000 likes because what she described happening to those sisters is Watchtower policy and those elders were following orders from the Society.
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sirius says:
May 30, 2015 at 5:48 am
Sure looks and reads like how muslims operate, through non-assimilation. Not to be governed or tainted by non-believers (Jews, Christians, Kafiers, Infidels etc.). Hard to believe in today’s enlightenment we are to tolerate the intolerant yet under a faith… wholesale practiced intolerance by JWs and muslims. So much for simple human rights, having an equality of respect & dignity.
Brie, an excellent presentation!
dogstar
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danman says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:07 am
There was a brief moment in Watchtower history that came when Ray Franz tried to steer the governing body toward ‘freedom of conscience’. I remember articles in the Watchtower about allowing each other the freedom to decide, based upon ‘Christian principles’.
It was like a breath of fresh air wafting through halls of strict enforced ‘pharisaical’ policies and rules. Of course as soon as Bethel heavies began to see the self study of the bible, independent actions, they quickly reigned back ‘personal conscience’ for even more thorough, trite rules and policies via secret elder manuals and the like.
An opportunity to become an organization of true Christian freedom, lost forever, because a few wise men read and truly understood what Jesus was teaching. Protecting power and influence was and is at the base root of the Watchtower structure.
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:40 am
@Anonymous & @ Danman BOTH of your COMMENTS show ALL the HALLMARKS of a CULT !!! You Really have YEARS of Experience between you & the points you make show the GB & the Organisation is GOVERNED by PHARASAICAL Rules which have no relation to Christianity because Jesus wanted LOVE,JUSTICE & MERCY!!!
Where in the Scriptures has the GB got the right to tell me WHAT DAMN COLOUR SHIRT to WEAR on the PLATFORM & whether I have a BEARD or not as I was told in 1984 by my body of Elders !!!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:11 pm
If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness myself and now having become a “disassociated fader” that just raised so many red flags. Any witness, disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility?
I believe her, but man that just troubles me.
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:49 pm
@J*L*C*R . I have listened to Brie twice now & she does say the correct pronunciation ! This is an INNOCENT Question but do you listen to LOUD Music a lot because you may have lost some of your sense of hearing.
Perhaps you should visit a Doctor who specialises in HEARING Disabilities! I say this with genuine concern as now you have no hope of the ‘PARADISE’ your hearing won’t be healed in the New System!!
I can VOUCH for Everything she says which I have seen & experienced much of what she relates in many many instances!!
You are NOT a MAN by ANY CHANCE!!! Because WOMEN have Had Enough of being Treated as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS in the ORGANISATION ,LETS Not NIT PICK But concentrate on the Positive!!
This Video will Help tens of thousands of women BREAK FREE from The SLAVERY imposed on them in this Organisation & YES I CALL DOMESTIC ABUSE …. SLAVERY!!!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:50 pm
Pickled Brain….for someone who states they hate the watchtower so much, you really enjoy using their tactics of bullying and insulting language when trying to convey an argument.
Not to mention going completely off the reservation with the topic at hand… we are talking about the greenhorn, door-step bible student mistake of mispronouncing the name of the religion.
Any JW would laugh at this because of the mistakes in small details. In order to sway their entrenched opinion, you have to be on your toes with the facts at hand.
I clearly heard her repeatedly say “Jehovah Witness” singular and not plural…that’s just my opinion.
This does not detract from her argument or message in any way…she conveyed it politely, stayed on topic, and was courteous throughout. Maybe, you should watch it a third time and learn some of that before giving someone both barrels over the internet.
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Pat says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:25 pm
J*L*C*R , I for one like to misspell their name too, I do it subconsciously. I think it’s a way of showing I am not one of them anymore, I don’t follow their rules, call them however I want sort of thing.
I was brought up in this religion too.
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Queen Elsa says:
May 29, 2015 at 11:21 pm
Who cares!!!! Nit picking like the organization does, drives me nuts!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:13 am
Also, not “nit picking” is why I was trapped in this organization for so long. Critically examine everything before you accept it at face value. Her main point was “think for yourself”….seriously people, don’t be a sheep.
Just because something “tickles your ear” doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be subjective and examine it thoroughly.
Pat says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:04 pm
But that’s exactly my point, I was trying to show that not spelling JWs name correctly is completely normal even if you were a witness for decades, hence in my opinion it is totally irrelevant in establishing the truthfulness of Brie’s story.
Liam smith says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:26 pm
Well done you for standing up to the bullies on this site
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:29 pm
Liam Smith – What an interesting observation coming from someone who, on first arriving on this site, once said…
“Been a fader for 3 years now and actually find some of the comments on here so petty and nit picking, GET A LIFE.”
Amazing that I am a bully for saying “You’re easily insulted,” while your “petty and nitpicking, GET A LIFE” remark gets a clean bill of health.
anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:47 pm
@J*L*C*R, are you seriously suggesting that she made up her life experience in the “truth” because she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness? Why in the world would a young girl make up a story like that when most Witness kids find it embarrassing to even admit to the rest of the kids that they even belong to the Witness religion?
How she was treated as a young Witness is why she spoke with such feeling and she has EMPATHY for the victims that she is talking about which most Witnesses don’t have.
If anyone doubts that she is telling the truth, there has to be something wrong with them or else that girl deserves an Oscar for such a moving performance for being such a good actress and I for one can’t imagine that she is acting.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:57 pm
I said I believed her… I only implied that why one Earth would someone mispronounce the name of the religion? It was probably a simple mistake but not even bible studies make that greenhorn mistake in mispronunciation… particularly someone who grew up in it. When a person makes novice mistakes like that, it detracts from the message. It’s like listening to a lecture and someone constantly mispronouncing the subject…after awhile it’s just embarrassing.
Also, that’s a nice comment you made about “If anyone doubts that she is telling the truth, there has to be something wrong with them”. That reminds me of an organization that called anyone with a different opinion “mentally handicapped”…I wonder where we have heard that before?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:03 pm
Also, not “nit picking” is why I was trapped in this organization for so long. Critically examine everything before you accept it at face value. Her main point was “think for yourself”….seriously people, don’t be a sheep.
Just because something “tickles your ear” doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be subjective and examine it thoroughly.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:26 pm
That wasn’t the end of my sentence J*L*C*R. I don’t know for sure that everything she said was the truth either but if she’s not telling her true experience with the “truth” then I said she deserves an Oscar for being that good an actress. Her speech was so moving that she had students also tearing up and I am sure that a lot of people who watched her video teared up when they were listening to it. If she’s that good an actress, she deserves an award for it.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:14 pm
and to add to my last comment, I have heard many a Witness say Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness from people who have been in the “truth” for many many years. It is a common mistake especially for people who weren’t allowed to go to college and especially for people who aren’t in the “truth” and you have to remember that she was talking to kids who are used to hearing the term Jehovah Witnesses instead of Jehovah’s Witnesses but she does start out by saying that she was raised a “Jehovah’s Witness”.
Also, she names the congregation where she was from and the first experience was in that congregation and could be easily proved false if it wasn’t true.
When Brie gave that speech, she was just giving a speech in class and had no idea it would get hundreds of thousands of views within a week and if she had known that was going to happen, she probably would have been really nervous. She had no idea that thousands of people were going to see her speech and didn’t realize that there would be people who would pick on every little word she said wrong, which is a good thing. If she had known ahead of time what would happen, who knows? Maybe she would have been too nervous, knowing how people would be picking it apart, word by word and not had to courage to go through with her speech.
What she did took courage beyond courage and to say that her speech raised red flags to you, raises red flags to your comment as far as I am concerned.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:29 pm
What part of “I agree with what she said” didn’t you understand? You are preaching to the choir, already. Good lord friend, take a breath.
And please, just because someone has a different opinion other than yours, DOES NOT give you the right to shove your own down their throats. If I wanted to not have a cool, calm debate over a topic; I’d just as soon start attending my meetings again and have their opinions shoved down my throat.
We can agree or disagree without being disagreeable.
Also, before you throw another tantrum. I AGREE WITH BRIE AND EVERYTHING SHE SAID….I ALSO AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SAID. (except for the whole “if you disagree with brie something must be wrong with you” part that was just plain rude.
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R*L*C*J says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:41 pm
Seriously… you people blocked me? I am the only EX JW who is not so touchy about their past experiences that they cannot politely discuss their opinions with others? I was nothing but polite and courteous to all the people who insulted me and you don’t see me blocking them.
For Pete’s sake, one person says anything contrary to popular opinion and they jump on them faster than a pizza at a weightloss convention.
Has anyone read Pickled Brains response to mine? There were so many ad hominem attacks, insults, and bullying remarks, you would think Pickled Brain was a member of the governing body. Particularly, after I wrote “I agree with what she said”.
Just because your typing and looking at an empty computer screen doesn’t give anyone the right to be rude to the other.
anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:13 pm
J*L*C*R, again, my whole sentence was if anyone doubted that she was telling the truth there has to be something wrong with them, did not end there. The rest of the sentence was because if she is not telling the truth, she has to get an Oscar for her performance.
Neither of us knows her or lived through her experiences so all we can do is go by what she said and how she said it. I wasn’t saying that if anyone doubted her that there was something wrong with them and left it there.
We are all entitled to our opinions but most dyed in the wool Witnesses would say the same thing you did and then they would call into question the validity of her being a Witness and say she is making it all up because she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness every time but if you listen to her speech again, you will hear that she starts out by saying “I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness”.
There were a couple things about her speech too that I wondered about like why in the world would those elders tell that young woman that she had to drop the charges against her rapist if she wasn’t to get disfellowshipped especially since the one that raped her wasn’t even a Witness.
What I would love to see is if it get national attention and she is able to go on television and give the whole story or maybe have those women come on and tell their stories to back her up. I am sure there is much more to the stories that she had to leave out because of time constraints.
Cedars says:
May 30, 2015 at 1:47 am
“I believe her, but man that just troubles me.”
You’re easily troubled.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:42 am
Seriously, Lloyd. For someone I look up to as a man for free thinking and not taking things at face value, you insult me?
You were a witness once too, in your congregation didn’t the die hards laugh at those who called themselves “Jehovah Witness” instead of “I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
I would expect to be congratulated at such scrutiny, from a man such as yourself, who ALWAYS says to ask questions.
I was you and your articles that woke myself and my mother and father up in the first place.
For someone who suffers from depression Lloyd, that was a pretty low comment to say to someone who may have the same affliction.
You are my hero Lloyd, and your reaction to my comment is just plain hurtful.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:52 am
Also, when it comes to finding the truth about the realities of the Watchtower’s crimes, yes I am easily troubled. Anyone serious about taking them down would be easily troubled to anything they could turn around and beat the arguer over the head with.
Brie did a fantastic job but in the eyes of any witness, (as you know) when they start calling themselves “Jehovah Witness” it all goes out the window for them.
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Cedars says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:12 am
You’re insulted by my saying “you’re easily troubled?”
Then you’re also easily insulted.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:16 am
I took your comment too seriously. All things aside though, I can’t believe I am talking to you Lloyd. You are my hero!
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:24 am
This is why I don’t like online communication, same with emails. I can’t hear a person’s tone and their sense of humor (like I know you definitely have one over prank calling Tight Pants Tony) over the internet.
I’ve always wanted to get involved and write an article for your site, Lloyd. How can a person go about doing that? If that’s even an option?
Anyway, thanks for your time Lloyd, and the opportunity to talk with you.
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:01 am
I came to this site in hopes of finding cool and calm individuals I could have a horizon broadening debate with. Now I see there are just as many hotheads and extremists on this site as there are at my Kingdom Hall. I’ll have to keep looking, I guess.
Anyway, I have a life to live now free from the Watchtower. A world where I am not afraid to share my opinions with others from fear of reprisals.
Last Words…just because it’s coming from a seemingly innocent and reliable source, don’t automatically assume it’s the truth. Examine the facts and come to your own conclusions…
You should patrol and inforce your guidlines more Lloyd, I have never been more insulted in my life than in your comments section.
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Darlene says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:46 am
J*L*C*R, of course it is always good to try to get to the bottom of something. But everything has its extremes, like the complete acquiesce of people in the cult and also the people out of it, who now challenge everything and believe nothing.
Think the other way around, if she’d somehow made that up and faked her JW experience I’d expect her to be very very fussy to NOT let something like that slip. I’d expect her to research JWs really good so that she knew how they are called. There might be exceptions, but probably the normal young student is not capable of pulling such a double stunt. And if, what’d be the point of that? For what purpose should she troll the JW and Ex-JW community?
I guess it’s just that: a nervous pupil giving a speech about something highly emotional in which she is directly involved. Such errors simply happen.
(Answer to (citate) just in case it got mixed up):
If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness myself and now having become a “disassociated fader” that just raised so many red flags. Any witness, disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility?
I believe her, but man that just troubles me
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:35 pm
Anonymous…I agree 100%. :)
Also, it turns out I wasn’t blocked, it was a spam sifter or something. My bad. (operator malfunction)
It’s hard enough for a kid to speak in front of the class, let alone about a topic so sensitive. She is a courageous young woman who has my respect.
I also want to apologize to you for what I said earlier. I took your comment to literally and I scrutinized her speech a little too much.
Since, i’ve left the “truth” all of my friends and some of my family have cut all ties. Going to school now even (community college), I keep my past hidden because I am afraid of how my new friends would react to being around an ex cultist.
Brie really is an inspiration. One day, I hope I can confront my own past and follow her example.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:55 pm
I understand. You were playing devil’s advocate and there is nothing wrong with that. I believe in doing the same thing if we want active Witnesses to know that we aren’t being biased but being honest with them.
If Witnesses are going to pick on her video and call it into question, they will pick on one little thing like that and dismiss everything else that she said. Their brains will stop at that and go no further.
Witnesses will look for any little imperfections in her speech to say she is making it up but most honest people can tell by how she speaks, that she was affected personally and that comes through loud and clear. We also have to remember that she was only giving a speech to her class and did not know it would be to the world, like it turned out to be. Had she known ahead of time and she wasn’t too nervous to give that speech, she would have made it perfect, I am sure. As it was, it was from the heart and it didn’t have to be perfect but it was amazing anyway.
It has only been one week since her speech and this is only the beginning. Hopefully it reaches millions and millions of views. Hopefully there will be a ground swell against the Society starting with the youth and maybe her speech will give other children the courage to speak up too. Her speech makes me want to get up in front of people and do the same thing. She truly is an inspiration to all of us.
The youth are the next generation and if they refuse to fall in step, then the head of the snake will die.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:48 pm
Amen to that anonymous…. the sooner the better.
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Grace says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:49 pm
@J*L*C*R,
You did raise a legitimate question, I did notice that she said “Jehovah Witness”. I just put it down to nerves & I thought that still ins would pick that but I thought that if that’s all that they had to pick then they’re being nit picky which is something that they are good at.
Your opinions are appreciated, it’s good to have open debate.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:50 pm
Thank you! Your open-mindedness is greatly appreciated. :)
If we can’t have good, polite debates here then where can we have them?
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M Saurus says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:17 pm
I watched the video and quite frankly was a little weirded out when she got all choked up. I know it’s nerve-wracking giving a speech like that and she recovered nicely.
However, I do agree with JLCR. I was entrenched in this religion from age 8 to age 48, about 3 years ago. The most laughed at and popular “mistake” was always when someone said I’m a Jehovah Witness. No. If you’ve been involved for more than 6 months or so, you are “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
I too heard Brie make that mistake in terminology throughout her video. Maybe her mother was “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” – but she was, by her own admission, “a Jehovah Witness”. Big, Big difference.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:51 pm
Exactly!
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Grace says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:51 pm
@Who Shall Go When God’s Kingdom Comes?,
Have you thought of maybe trying a new drug. You sound very intoxicated.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:54 pm
I know that’s right! I’ll have what he’s having. 😉
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 9:32 pm
@J*L*C*R . GOOD GRIEF ! I CANNOT Believe the debate that has ensued while I went to sleep after my last comment !! I am from the U,K. and it is 5.30 . Just getting up to get ready for field service You LACK a Sense of humour J*L*C*R . You ACCUSE ME of NOT BEING POLITE!! Well you Don’t do a BAD JOB of Being Insulting & YES YOU ARE RIGHT ….., I AM A MEMBER of the GOVERNING BODY going under the guise of …. PICKLED BRAIN…!!!!
ANTHONY is my REAL NAME… You LACK A SENSE of HUMOUR & for that I Will ANNOUNCE from the PLATFORM that you WILL BE ….. RE-INSTATED!!!
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 9:57 pm
@J*L*C*R …. Before I commented to you there were only 72 replies to this post & I thought there should be at least 500 on THIS BRILLIANT YOUNG LADIES POST!!
I BET YOU ARE From the GOOD OLD U.S.A…,,, Just have a STRANGE FEELING in MY GOOD OLD … EZEKIEL BONES !!!! A Bit Like the FAITHFUL SLAVE had in 1919!!
Oh hhhh !! BOY oh BOYI am GOING to ENJOY DEBATING with you J*L*C*R*.
Anyway MUCH CHRISTIAN LOVE to YOU …. J*L*C*R*
LOVE ANTHONY the THIRDddddd xxx
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:53 pm
Either you are being extraordinarily rude to M Saurus or your up to your eyeballs in that religion. If so, trust me I’ve been in your shoes…get out before it’s too late and your life and time has been wasted….no joke.
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 12:46 am
@J*L*C*R . You could be RIGHT maybe I have spent too long in this Religion!! Something I can agree with you on… & YES I suppose sometimes the mouth can run ahead of the brain ! I have to admit it can happen to the best of us or the worst!
But they say it takes a STRONG MAN to say they are SORRY !! So I am willing to say I was too harsh in my comments to you & yes you have a right to comment on how BRIE said things .
BUT I will say it is important to STAY UNITED in WHAT BRIEs MESSAGE was & that was INJUSTICE AGAINST WOMEN !!
I
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:46 am
Amen, Pickled Brain. I except your apology.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:57 am
If you bothered to read my comment to anonymous, I apologized to him to.
I came to this site in hopes of finding cool and calm individuals I could have a horizon broadening debate with. Now I see there are just as many hotheads and extremists on this site as there are at my Kingdom Hall. I’ll have to keep looking, I guess.
Anyway, I have a life to live now free from the Watchtower. A world where I am not afraid to share my opinions with others from fear of reprisals.
Last Words…just because it’s coming from a seemingly innocent and reliable source, don’t automatically assume it’s the truth. Examine the facts and come to your own conclusions…
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:26 am
@J*L*C*R* . Thank you for BEING SO GRACIOUS in your Acceptance of my apology . IT IS APPRECIATED !!! You have shown yourself to be a DECENT PERSON !!
WE all NEED on this site to be in UNISON in our FIGHT against the Watchtower & GB!!
The main Focus here is what Brie Highlighted that WOMEN in the ORGANISATION are Treated like Second Class Citizens!!!
Take care J*L*C*R* … You have suffered like the rest of us at the hands of the GB & Watchtower . So I wish you well
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:23 am
@J*L*C*R * . We ALL NEED as Many Comments on this site as possible. Your comments are Valued !!! I might be a bit Naughty at times with my comments but US BRITS HUMOUR May not be Appreciated by ALL . But we Need you ALL on this site !
Let’s Carry the Fight TOGETHER !!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:46 pm
@Shanti . I LIKE your CALM LOGIC in your Comments & Reasoning to J*L*C*R *
Your comments show a very balanced approach & Attitude & did influence me in my Apology to J*L*C*R* .
We don’t want to intentionally hurt anyone who is struggling to get over from the damage the GB have done to people!!
Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:51 pm
A king has no power without his army.
Thus a few men on the GB don’t deserve all the blame. Their supporters are guilty too. Without them, the GB would have no power.
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:10 pm
@Apostates will SUFFER GNASHING of Teeth. I JUST CANT RESIST Having SENSIBLE DIALOGUE with you …. As we are getting on so well together … I Feel Quite Close to you ???? Pardon Me , but do you mind if I CALL You ‘ GNASHING ‘ for short … It has such a WARM FEEL To it !!!
Anyway my DEAR GNASHING , you sat the GLORIOUS TRUTH will SHINE THROUGH ‘!!!!
Could you Kindly tell me ‘Is that the GLORIOUS TRUTH about 1799(Last Days According to Russell)) & 1874& 1878 or 1914,1918,1919,1925,1975 or the Glorious Truth about ‘ the GENERATION ‘ or ‘Sheep& Goats or Who the F& D Slave are or whether to have ORGAN TRANSPLANTS????
Well my Dear Gnashing Teeth … See you at the DENTISTS!!! I think you NEED FILLING IN Or CROWNED !!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:14 pm
@ Simon Kestrel. I appreciated your comment about ‘Except’ ,
I enjoy your comments.
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:22 pm
@ GNASHING !!! WHERE ARE YOU … MY LOVE???
Swallowtail says:
May 30, 2015 at 5:04 pm
That is absolutely hilarious Pickled Brain. I am sure “Gnashing” had more important things to do, like go collect all the pocket change/ice cream money from the kids at his local kingdom hall. The society does not need the money or anything, they just need something shiny to glue to their miniature pyramid they are building. Got to let the light get brighter after all…….
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:19 pm
@Swallow Tail . GLAD you enjoyed the LOVE that is BLOSSOMING between ME & GNASHING ????!
I feel like writing a NEW BIBLE BOOK called …… Wait for it ….. Da DA Da …, ‘The SONG of GNASHING ‘. …Solomon … EAT YOUR HEART OUT!!!
SwallowTail .. I REALLY ENJOY your SENSE of HUMOUR TOO!!! My HERO ??is JOHN CLEESE!!! Just Love FAWLTY TOWERS & Parts of MONTY PYTHON!!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:57 pm
@J*L*C*R . YOU ARE RIGHT.., WE ARE STRONGER UNITED !!! Don’T LET the GB WIN by DIVIDING US … So APOLOGIES to ANYONE ELSE on this Site I may have Rubbed up the Wrong Way in the Past !!
Let’s BEAT the GB TOGETHER !!!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:29 pm
@Finn Sawyer. Scrolling back to earlier comments I noticed your ones . You show a Depth of wisdom in how you approach your subject like Shanti does .
Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 11:04 pm
Thanks PB. I enjoy your comments as well.
Pickled brain says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:43 am
@Swallowtail . Glad you like my ‘Song of Gnashing’… WONDER IF MY SONG will Make the NEW SONG BOOK !!! I will submit it to the GB…What do you think my chances are???
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:43 pm
@ Pickled Brain, Don’t you waste your awesome ‘Song of Gnashing’ on them now!! You keep that jewel for yourself and all of us! LOL
Pickled brain says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:20 pm
@Swallowtail . I think you are right . My Talented Song would probably be wasted on the GB though I was thinking of Asking Stephen LETTS to Sing it !!
I MEAN his GNASHING GESTURES would be AMAZING!!! & David Splane would make a Great DRACULA!!!!
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:10 pm
THAT’S GENIUS Pickled Brain. Hey while we are at it, lets get them to perform it in some “tight pants”.
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 1:07 am
@Swallowtail . NOW THATS WHAT I CALL…… ‘ NEW LIGHT’!!!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:23 am
@Exhausted . Enjoy your comments & I like the Name you’ve called yourself . I think we have ALL FELT MENTALLY EXHAUSTED at Times because of the EMOTIONAL PAIN & HURT caused by the STUPID & CRUEL RULES of 7 MEN in BROOKLYN !!
& AS you say IT IS the SUBJUGATION of WOMEN in this CULT & the The ISSUE of DOMESTIC ABUSE & the DISGUSTING WAY it is HANDLED by the GB!!!
UTTERLY DISGRACEFUL !!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:39 am
DAVID SPLANE & HIS WHITE ONLY CHOIR with the Token black person thrown in MAKES ME SICK!!
Years ago the GB stopped sisters playing the piano for songs in the Kingdom Hall BECAUSE it DREW TOO MUCH ATTENTION to the SISTER playing the Piano.
SUBJUGATION of WOMEN AGAIN…..But the DRAMA QUEEN …. DAVID ( Dracula ) SPLANE PONCES about with his FLIPPING WAND( conductors stick) .. WAVING it ABOUT like He’s GODS GIFT to the Philharmonic Orchestra.
DRACULA …. Sorry I mean … DAVID ,the DAMNED END is COMING( ARMAGEDDON ) , GET OUT & Get your DAMNED CART out there ,Knock on a few Doors & SAVE LIVES!!
GET RID of the CHOIR .!! Our DEAR Stephen LETTS is SHORT on FUNDS !!! & KEEP Your LIFE SIMPLE !!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 3:37 pm
If Anyone wants to see the FAMOUS , ILLUSTRIOUS CONDUCTOR & COMPOSER:
DAVID VON SPLANE BEETHOVEN ! PLEASE Look at That Popular TV Series … TV.JW.Org & Go to the Music Section & Songs….. JUST SO FINANCIALLY INSPIRING !!!
Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:45 pm
PB, those choir pieces literally make me nauseous. When did this organization become so obsessed with singing and music videos? Growing up, I asked my parents why we weren’t allowed to listen to Christian rock, why don’t we have a choir? Seems like that would be ideal music for a Christian, my naive mind reasoned. The answer: “It’s not Christian it’s from the Devil!” Now, I’m sure JW chicks are falling all over themselves for the anonymous music video brother the’yre using these days in the broadcasts. What’s next? A long-haired rock band? I can barely keep up the light is getting brighter so quickly!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:00 pm
@FInn . What REALLY ANNOYED me last year our Congregation donated £3000 for Hospitality for Inter ational Delegates & SIsters & Brothers were Dancing & Singing to Pharrell Williams song ‘HAPPY’
Back in the 1980s I DESTROYED all my Rock Records of The Rolling Stones, The Who,Bad Company ,Deep Purple, David Bowie,Etc because of the GB telling us ‘ Would we Listen to this Music IF JESUS was in the Room with us??
So OBVIOUSLY …. JESUS is HAPPY to Listen to Pharrell Williams …. WELCOME to the Forever Changing ‘ CLARIFICATIONS & ADJUSTMENTS of 7 mainly AMERICAN MEN in Brooklyn !!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:15 pm
@Finn . I think the Camera LINGERS TOO LONG on the SISTER with the RED LIPSTICK … Or Hang on Maybe THATS ME LINGERING Toooo Long on the Voluptuous Sister with the RED LIPSTICK !!!!
I Think DavId SPLANES Conductors STICK is TOO UPRIGHT when He POINTS HIS ‘STICK????? At the SISTER with the RED LIPSTICK !!
Anyway i am SURE If you are Reading this Post … David….Your MOST HOLINESS that you could CORRECT ?? Me if I am Wrong !!!
I BET David SPLANE Likes doing ‘ A BIT of CO- ERECTION !!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:30 pm
Please Accept my HUMBLEST APOLIGIES , but my SPELLING & PUNCTUATION Needs to be WORKED ON …. I must get some Advice from the Theocratic Ministry School Overseer!!
Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:50 pm
Have you also noticed how they give more camera time to the men than women in those choir pieces? Or is that just me?
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:48 am
hahaha! :-) Pickled Brain your “Song of Gnashing” is bound to make more sense than the Revelation its Grand Climax at Hand! book that we used to have to study. 😉
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:45 pm
Thanks Pickled Brain…. Truer words were never spoken. We are stronger united and I am grateful for having this site here, to communicate.
Anyway, thanks for the support and good luck to you too. :)
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 4:01 pm
The watchtower is so messed up with women’s rights they wouldn’t even let sisters count the money in the donation box. These sisters were professional full time bank tellers that could count the donations and sort them in 15 minutes flat. But the “elders” decided that this was inappropriate for sisters to do, so they stepped in and fumbled through the same job in over an hour. It makes absolutely no sense, that and wearing a headdress if you lead a bible study with a baptized brother present. Even if the brother is family, if he’s baptized and in the same house at the time of the study, a headdress or hat is mandatory. Just stupid and crazy stuff on the watchtower’s part.
anonymous says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:56 am
J*L*C*R, don’t be put off by Lloyd’s comments to you. I think we were all a bit put off by your initial comments about Brie because you started off by says “if” she was a Witness all those years so you started off your comment by calling into question her truthfulness, which is what any JW apologist would do and then you said when she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness, it raised “red flags” to you which also implied she was lying. Then you ended it by saying that it was “troubling to you”. All those comments were calling into question the validity of Brie’s life story.
I was hoping that Lloyd would comment and I was glad he did and I thought his comment were quite nice considering how incendiary and suspicious that Brie was telling the truth about her life in the Watchtower, your initial comments seemed to be.
After explaining that you were just playing devils advocate, your comments seemed less like a Watchtower apologist and more understandable.
I have also had some of my comments not published because maybe I came off somewhat like your comment and being critical which is not helpful to our cause of bringing the Watchtower’s lies out in the open for all to see.
If you go to Youtube and go to Brie’s youtube video, there is a link you can read about her life story that explains a lot about how terribly her and her mother have been treated and you would understand why she isn’t going to give the Watchtower any respect by saying Jehovah’s Witnesses and instead says “Jehovah Witnesses”.
Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:39 pm
RE: comments not published
It may not be censorship, I think the web site software sometimes loses them. It’s happened to me.
Charles Costante says:
May 29, 2015 at 10:18 pm
“This woman is disgusting and ugly on the inside. How shocking to use half-truths to mislead and manipulate unsuspecting school pupils to avoid learning the wonderful truths in God’s Word. But rejoice not O you apostates! Righthearted ones will surely be moved by God’s spirit to overcome these lies and come to know His Organization. To you we say: Repent and Return to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls!”
Who Shall Go When God’s Kingdom Comes?, it seems to me that you’re so used to the Governing Body speaking on your behalf that you’ve become like the puppet on a ventriloquist’s hand. Do yourself a favour and start learning the truth about the “truth” – it might actually set you free!
“If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” ”
J*L*C*R, I watched the first few minutes of the video and noticed that she does initially use “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and then it became “Jehovah Witness”. It does sound a bit odd coming from someone who has been one, but I then thought that it was probably an unconscious ‘mirroring’ to connect to her classmates.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology) Most people (and probably her classmates) call them ‘Jehovah Witnesses’, not ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’.
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Ken says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:25 pm
Honestly I found Brie’s video full of silly , and embarrassing moments of sending a picture to boy of her and a friend in a bikini . So the boy got the pics on cell , so his mom caught him masturbating to them ,so the boys mom reports Brie to the “elders” seems a bit out of character for a mother , but if Brie sent those pictures to that boy , seems a bit odd that she
would get DF for doing that . You might say that
Brie’s mother should have gotten involved since she
is “underage”. Forgive me Ceders , but this is stupid .
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:36 pm
@Ken, that’s what this religion diminishes people to. I have friends who are mothers of daughters of the same age & I can tell you it all sounded so silly at the time listening to their stories but that’s what this religion does to people. You start to lose your own assuredness.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:00 pm
Ken, you really should watch the video before commenting.
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SwimmingWild says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:39 am
@Charles Costante
Interesting possibility – unconscious mirroring by Brie of her classmates vocabulary – a well known neurologically programmed behaviour as the link showed. They would more likely know the cult members as Jehovah Witnesses.
Also it could be a conscious courtesy to her audience – using the term Brie knows they use for this group. It’s like when I go the the USA (from the UK) I will refer to the “trunk” rather than the “boot” of a car. Or to adjust for the different pronunciation of tomato, potato and garage in American English.
None of this makes any difference to the content and effective delivery of her talk – and its brilliantly successful publicising of the dark side if this cult.
SwimmingWild
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Shanti says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:06 am
J*L*C*R*:
I think the primary objective was to come to Brie’s defense and not to insult you. You must understand there are regulars on this forum who have distinct personalities. Please get to know them and understand their voices. They all have something to offer as I think you do as well. I can understand how passionate you are about your views. I don’t doubt for a minute that the regulars here would come to your defense if it was required.
The JW’s left me w/ the sense of “it’s me or them”. If they don’t agree w/ me, they must be against me. That is just not true. I have to fight it every day. Coming to this website has helped me understand that we might disagree on the little things but we are united where it counts.
I appreciate what Brie did regardless of the wording. I don’t want to take the attention away from this milestone with what might appear to outsiders as petty infighting. She is very young to have taken on this responsibility and I think the attention and focus needs to be on what she did accomplish. There are so many positives about what this young woman did. I would love to hear followups from her. I don’t want to squelch her creativity because we circled all the errors in red ink and sent the piece back to her. I would love to see her contribute articles on this website w/ Cedars. She is just starting her escape from the JW’s. We all know how difficult that is. It would be so exciting to have her check in and tell us her progress.
Congratulations on leaving the JW’s with your family intact. That is a milestone on it’s own merit. Many of us have not been so lucky and are still struggling to cope with life w/o any family.
I think we all need a reminder that it takes a while to shake the “JW” out of our heads.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:49 pm
Thanks for the kind words, Shanti! It’s a struggle for us all and I hope to get to know the regulars here in time. Thanks again.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:29 pm
J*L*C*R, you told Pickled you “except” his apology.
I know what you meant. But as you demonstrate, not everyone is 100% precise in their speech or writing. I have heard experienced JWs say “Jehovah Witness” when asked about their religion. Some, as you say, like to be precise. But others, not so much.
If we understand what people mean, that’s the important thing.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:33 pm
My reply to J*L*C*R appears BEFORE his post. Weird. Maybe a web site software bug I guess.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:12 pm
Gnashing said:
“TRUTH OF GOD’S GLORIOUS ORGANIZATION WILL SHINE THROUGH!!”
I trust it will. But the evidence I’ve examined convinces me WT is not it.
The GB says “WE ARE THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE!”
Any slave claiming that title for himself, is presumptuous. Only the master, Jesus, can decide which slaves to reward. And Jesus has not done so yet.
That false claim makes it obvious: the WT is not God’s organization, it is not God’s channel of communication.
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ScotWm says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:20 am
The self-appointed Governing Body, which claims to be the faithful slave class, has assured us that jesus will indeed reward them when they are appointed over all the Master’s belongings! Here is the official prophesy:
“When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment — over all his belongings.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.25 par.18).
The Governing Body has made Jesus’ decision for him and even described his mood as being one of delight.
If “loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics” includes the Governing Body’s history of publishing constantly-changing scriptural interpretations, making endless false prophesies and lying about Watchtower history, this prophesy will indeed come true.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:48 pm
Something may be buggy on this site, my posts are not appearing in the order I thought I posted them.
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Juan Viejo says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:56 pm
Finn (and others) – If you take a second look at the way the comments are arranged you may notice that when someone responds to an earlier comment, that response is filed beneath the original to keep the sequence in place. Some comments will have a larger response than others and so the thread will have a jump between dates. That is the option we have chosen. Otherwise, someone replies to an earlier comment but the context is lost.
Many comments are held for review because (a) they include words or phrases that might be considered obscene or have used words that may sound like a sales pitch. We get tons of that sort. (b) The writer includes one or more links within the comment. If the link goes to a spammy site or has spammy words included in the domain name [SEO, lowcost, free, buy, etc.] or they are repeated within the text, the comment will be held for review. (c) One of the administrators notices that the comment is off topic or violates one or more of the guidelines. Later comments may go through – leaving the poster to wonder why one was missing, and another was posted.
More often than not, an article like this one about Brie will draw a lot of comments and will quickly load up our review cache. Cedars and his regular crew try to keep up. Occasionally, being the webmaster, I will jump in and release or remove a ton of old comments just to help the system run more efficiently. There are some comments that are right on the line as to whether they should be approved or not – and we all try to take a liberal approach to them. But some are just a bit over the top, off subject, too adult for adults, or just a waste of Internet ink and add nothing to the thread.
I hope this gives you a general idea about what goes on in the background. Maybe by reading this comment, anyone who has not seen their comment appear within a few days send an email to contact@jwsurvey and address it to “Webmaster” – I’ll take a look at your problem to make sure it is not a glitch in the system. I’ll try to let you know why your comment was automatically
held for review. I can assure everyone that comments are appreciated – even those that are somewhat negative. So just give us a clue that you feel there is a problem and we’ll take a look.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:57 pm
I agree with JLCR and M Saurus,
I think the pronunciation thing was a little strange. It made me question how recently or closely she was involved with the JWs. But she seems to fear disfellowshipping so she must be baptized. On another point: I don’t mean to discount Brie’s story, but I also don’t think it is wrong to question her credibility. It is what we should do, whether or not the comments are for or against Watchtower. The anecdotes she related, while heart-breaking and powerful, are unsupported. There is nothing wrong with doubting their veracity. Whenever Anthony Morris lobs one of his ridiculous anecdotes our way and expects us to take it on faith we immediately suspect it is a lie. If Cedars relied on 2nd or 3rd person anecdotes I would question his credibility as well. I’m not saying the stories are worthless and I don’t think Brie was lying. But I’m not going to buy into it lock stock and barrel just because the information originates with a well-meaning, innocent person. Brie, if you’re reading this it is not a criticism of you, just a statement of how I feel a critical thinker should process information. If others find it valuable (and obviously like 600,000 do!) I’ll not criticize them.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 7:00 pm
@Finn Sawyer
You worded that absolutely perfectly. Thank you. :)
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anonymous says:
May 30, 2015 at 6:57 pm
Just one week ago, Brie posted her video and it’s over 600,000 views and still going.
With all the tall tales that the Governing Body come up with in their talks, I don’t think any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses should call into question whether or not all of Brie’s experiences were completely true or not. She was repeating what others told her and she believed them and since we weren’t there living those experiences like what those sisters went though, we have no reason to doubt that they were not true stories.
We know that when she described the disfellowshipping policy for ones who try and walk away from the religion when they find out about the lies and corruption within the Organization, there is no untruth about that and that was a very powerful part of the speech, along with how terribly kids and women are treated.
From her speech, we also got to know how much pain and suffering a child must feel to imagine their own father being killed at Armageddon and so why it was so difficult for kids to make friends at school because of that, knowing that they’d all be killed at Armageddon and turned into bird food.
What her speech did was to demonstrate the anguish that every child must feel who are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses with the constant fear of the War of Armageddon that is drummed into their heads each and every day of their lives. That is child abuse!!!
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:43 pm
@Swallowtail. Just to add to my last comment .As The ‘Apostate Gnashing of Teeth ‘Post is a diehard JW …, He or she will probably NOT have a sense of humour so the best way to beat their bilge is with Humour!!! It CONFUSES THEM … As the Elders never have a Sense of Humour when I’ve been Counseled publicly in the Watchtower for my COMMENTS !! Quite a few Sisters are Catching on to what I am Subtley doing by giving me BIG SMILES at the End of the MEETING & Saying ‘I Really Enjoyed your comments ! I know there are others in my Kingdom Hall who don’t believe a word what the GB NEW LIGHT IS , But they are TRAPPED because of FAMILY MEMBERS who Have BLIND LOYALTY to the GB & have left their Brains at Home!
This is WHAT is SO EVIL about the GB with their SHUNNING Policies , but it WILL BACKFIRE because the GB may Stop people leaving the Organistion because of Attachment to family members, BUT I Guarantee you that HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS have LEFT the ORGANISATION MENTALLY & think NEW LIGHT CONCEPT is BANANAS!!!
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Charles Costante says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:09 pm
“I don’t mean to discount Brie’s story, but I also don’t think it is wrong to question her credibility. It is what we should do, whether or not the comments are for or against Watchtower. The anecdotes she related, while heart-breaking and powerful, are unsupported. There is nothing wrong with doubting their veracity. Whenever Anthony Morris lobs one of his ridiculous anecdotes our way and expects us to take it on faith we immediately suspect it is a lie. If Cedars relied on 2nd or 3rd person anecdotes I would question his credibility as well. I’m not saying the stories are worthless and I don’t think Brie was lying. But I’m not going to buy into it lock stock and barrel just because the information originates with a well-meaning, innocent person.”
I couldn’t agree with you more, Finn! When at the age of twenty five I came to the realisation that what I had believed fervently to be the “truth” since I was toddler was a load of nonsense, I made the decision to question everything I had ever taken for granted and would continue to do so from then on. I even question “scientific fact” which some may consider a bit extreme, but I say, “once bitten, twice shy”.
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Charles Costante says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:17 pm
“Seriously, Lloyd. For someone I look up to as a man for free thinking and not taking things at face value, you insult me?”
J*L*C*R, I would have been very upset if Lloyd had made those comments to me, so I understand how you feel. He can come across as arrogant and is often sarcastic and quite defensive when contradicted, things I try and ignore only because he’s so brilliant at exposing this insidious cult. Please don’t stop posting – your posts are well thought out (unlike Watchtower doctrine) and intelligently written and I for one am glad you brought up the issue you did (I only watched a few minutes of the YouTube clip and I knew there was something that didn’t feel quite right. It was only when you brought it up that the penny dropped).
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:03 am
Charles Constante…
“J*L*C*R, I would have been very upset if Lloyd had made those comments to me, so I understand how you feel. He can come across as arrogant and is often sarcastic and quite defensive when contradicted…”
I feel like I’ve slipped into an alternate reality where the most innocent, innocuous reply can be interpreted as a scathing insult.
Let’s recap… I told J*L*C*R he was “easily troubled” by Brie’s use of the phrase “Jehovah Witnesses” rather than “Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
When J*L*C*R said he felt insulted by my “easily troubled” comment, I told him he was “easily insulted.”
Am I missing something? Where are the upsetting comments I am alleged to have made?
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:41 am
Lloyd, you are very sensitive about any criticism directed at you but you don’t seem to show the same sensitivity with others. The fact of the matter is that J*L*C*R was upset by the comment you made and so would I if it had been directed at me. Maybe we’re both oversensitive! As I said earlier, you’re brilliant at what you do and that’s really what’s important.
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:48 am
Thank you Charles, but though I hate to press you on this, are you able to explain to me precisely what about my two brief comments to J*L*C*R was so upsetting?
I plead guilty as charged to not pulling punches and taking no prisoners with my comments both here and on YouTube. I am a writer and activist, not a politician. I am looking to get my point across, not win a popularity contest. If someone writes something that is silly, I will tell them so. But I can’t help but scratch my head that anything in my “easily troubled” and “easily insulted” comments to J*L*C*R could be a genuine cause of upset to an adult with standard comprehension skills.
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:23 am
Lloyd, to tell someone that he is “easily insulted” is a criticism in anyone’s book. It may be like water off a duck’s back to some but others take those sorts of comments to heart. We’re all different – what more can I say! I thought J*L*C*R brought up a very valid point because it’s the sort of thing that JW apologists will latch onto to try and discredit what Brie had to say. It’s now been thrashed out and hopefully put to rest.
I’ll say again that I think you’re doing an amazing job of discrediting the Watchtower. I wish I had your skill of communication (I also wish I knew how to use emoticons on this site – I’m not very literate when it comes to computers).
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:37 am
“Lloyd, to tell someone that he is ‘easily insulted’ is a criticism in anyone’s book.”
A criticism can be justified or unjustified. If my ‘crime’ was that of criticizing J*L*C*R, then J*L*C*R is guilty of the same crime towards Brie, whether his criticism was justified or not.
I would actually say my “easily troubled” comment was more of an observation than a criticism, but even if you categorize it as criticism it can’t by any reasonable stretch be deemed “upsetting” unless getting upset is your default reaction to any kind of criticism, no matter how mild.
J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:20 am
Lloyd, (my comment is long but please read all of it)
This is how myself and others took your comment.
“easily troubled’= someone who gets troubled over the most minor things.
“easily insulted”= implies being a prima-dona.
“But I can’t help but scratch my head that anything in my “easily troubled” and “easily insulted” comments to J*L*C*R could be a genuine cause of upset to an ADULT WITH STANDARD COMPREHENSION SKILLS.
An Adult With Standard Comprehension Skills= You are implying that due to my (and others) interpretation of the facts I am either an (a) immature individual and therefore lacking in standard comprehension skills; or (b) I am an adult with some form of metal handicap. (That strikes a nerve because we both know who else says such things)
Either way my point was this…I have not seen this young woman’s sources and due to this lack of evidence; I refuse to take HER WORD at face value. I just left a religion that encouraged me to just accept things on blind faith..I WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN. I WILL NEVER BE A VICTIM EVER AGAIN.
What’s the difference between Lett giving a speech with unsubstantiated claims and a teary eyed young girl giving one…other than the subject matter and physical appearances? To me when I hear an argument, I need to examine just the facts presented and leave bias out of it.
A statement without proof no matter who it comes from, I don’t care if Ghandi made one, it’s still unsubstantiated.
Your comments carry more weight than anyone else’s because I look up to you. How would you like it if your hero implied your someone who takes things too literally.When you idolize them for examining everything before accepting them as truth.
Coming from anyone else I would have ignored them, but I hold you to a higher standard, Lloyd.
We all better hope this doesn’t turn out to be a hoax; or we will be eating crow for life. Until I see the facts for myself, I will not stake my reputation on ANYTHING…or ANYONE. I did that for the Governing Body once on just BLIND FAITH and I WILL NEVER do anything like that EVER AGAIN.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:37 am
I find it absolutely astonishing that comments such as “you’re easily troubled” or “you’re easily offended” can be interpreted as insults or causes for offense by anyone – and may I take this opportunity, J*L*C*R, to note that you were rightly apologetic and acknowledging your readiness to be offended before Mr Constante came riding in with his rebuke.
I find it equally baffling that my paint-by-numbers explanation of why “you’re easily troubled” and “you’re easily insulted” are not insults or legitimate reasons for upset is now being re-examined with a verbose admonishment by a poster who was so recently ready to forget it all, and who now insinuates that I am victimizing him and accusing him of being immature and mentally retarded.
I appeal to all reasonable-minded visitors to adjudicate – have I done anything to justify any of these protests against my two three-word comments, or have I drifted into an alternate dimension where “you’re easily troubled/insulted” are scathing acts of humiliation that merit strong admonition and an apology?
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:08 pm
Cedars, since you asked for another opinion–I thought your comments were insulting. Where I come from, if you tell a person they are “easily offended” or “easily insulted” it implies they are weak-minded, without back-bone. They aren’t tough enough to deal with reality. That’s the implication. Whether or not that is true is beside the point, obviously no one wants to be thought of as having a weak mind. Indeed, whenever I have referred to someone in the congregation as “easily stumbled” it was meant as an insult. That’s my take.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Thanks Finn, that’s one opinion – hopefully not the final verdict (unless I really have fallen into an alternate universe where the slightest contradiction is viewed as a scathing attack).
Given the fact that there are already two people who think “You’re easily troubled” and “You’re easily insulted” are hurtful, upsetting and offensive comments, it doesn’t surprise me that there can be a third visitor to this site with a tenuous grasp on the definition of “insult.” I dare say there are more, but in a way I’m pleased to be able to put a name to you all.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:23 pm
Hi Lloyd. I also commented but it got mixed in the middle of all the comments as I wanted to put my two cents worth in on the discussion. Thanks
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:39 pm
Thanks anonymous. This isn’t the first time people have emerged from nowhere to whip up a storm in a teacup on JWsurvey. I’m keeping tabs on the situation, and so far I’m unimpressed by one poster’s talmudic fixation with correcting Brie’s terminology, followed by his enthusiasm to find offense in my completely innocuous comments, followed by the u-turn on his apology prompted only by another poster riding to his rescue. Classic apologist behavior, if it’s not too insulting for me to say.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:47 pm
I think if a person can dish it out, they should be able to take it too.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:52 pm
I can’t argue with you there. J*L*C*R seems to want the luxury, indeed demand the luxury, of being able to discredit what others say while having his own opinions held as sacrosanct.
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:05 pm
Cedars
I think you may be easily offended and may have a tenuous grasp of what constitutes insulting language. I’m going to remember that about you.
Can you take what you dish out?
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:45 pm
Finn “Can you take what you dish out?”
Can I take being told “you’re easily troubled” and “you’re easily offended” without writing voluminous replies stating how offended I am?
Yes, very easily – because neither of those statements are insults.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:24 pm
@Finn, did you go back and read J*L*C*R’s initial comments about Brie’s speech? Just because this person doesn’t trust anybody anymore, doesn’t mean that he had to imply that Brie’s speech was all lies. It was really insulting to her. Why is it okay for this person to insult that young girl like that just because he doesn’t trust people anymore?
J*L*C*R says that you can’t believe every story so that should go for J*L*C*R as well. Why should he be believed anymore than Brie should not be believed? Why is it okay for him to do that to Brie and not take the same treatment?
When I saw Brie’s speech for the first time, I couldn’t believe what a powerful witness it was for not getting involved in the JW religion. I was blown away by her speech and so were hundreds of thousands of others. Any speech calling into question her honesty has to be just plan jealousy and nothing else. It was calling attention to themselves and taking away the attention where it belongs on the courage of that young girl.
If there is such a thing as a David and Goliath story where this young lady brings down the Society, it is this video and I am rooting for her to win and she needs all of our support. She doesn’t need any detractors.
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 6:02 pm
I’m just mirroring Lloyd’s comments to myself and others. I’m not worried he’ll be offended, since he doesn’t regard them as insults. With regard to Brie’s video, please see my earlier post on Brie’s video. I’m not impressed and I’m not going to apologize for that simply to fit in with the majority.
You know, I appreciate what Lloyd has created here. Sometimes I really like this forum, but today is not one of those days. I apologize if I have contributed to that feeling for any others.
Excelsior! says:
June 3, 2015 at 5:49 am
Lloyd,
As Thomas Mann said, everything is politics!
You have decided to run a blog and make videos. You have decided to engage with the public about these issues.
You have a lot of people visiting and commenting on this site, many of whom have been badly scarred through their dealings with the WTBTS.
To be met by your often blunt (not rude) comments can be a further kick in the teeth for these unfortunate people.
If you want to be considered an expert in cult mind control, and play a leading part in exposing the WTBTS’ many abuses, you are going to have to learn to be diplomatic in your comments.
You cannot assume that, because you are not offended by plain speaking, that others will not be.
As a fellow atheist, we may not like having bible verses quoted at us, but one comes to mind.
Speak consolingly to the depressed souls.
I can’t remember where that is in the bible, but it’s good advice for all of us.
I think that you are a good man, and that your site and videos are excellent. But sometimes you can inadvertently upset people with your less than diplomatic language.
This is especially the case when people look up to you, and so your words carry more weight than others.
See this as a positive thing, Lloyd. You are helping a lot of people and those people have been hurt badly by uncaring cultists.
Please try to think how you would feel when you were just waking up if someone spoke to you the way you talk to people.
If you want to progress in your activism, then inevitably you will have to become involved in politics. Politicians will have to either see that existing laws are properly applied, or make fresh legislation to counter the WTBTS.
I, too, can be less than diplomatic on occasion. I have to re read my comments, and edit them before I post them.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 1:54 am
Saying that somebody is “easily troubled” or saying that somebody is “easily insulted” is nothing in comparison to saying that a young girl’s speech is nothing but lies. Now there’s a real insult. Lloyd is completely right in what he said. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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just asking says:
May 30, 2015 at 11:11 pm
Once upon a time someone told me to always ask questions but refused me to question him.
Ref: Bible teach chap 1 par 1-5.
How is that called in English? double standards?
What would that make the GB.
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Innocent Son says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:02 am
I read all the comments with great interest.You see this open honest debate would not be allowed in the Org, indeed some would probably be marked, reproved and even removed…Remember please though that we are all human and do make mistakes, so let’s not get to distracted about what Brie, may or may not have said…Let us not be overly critical, just try to put ourselves in this poor girls’ shoes and think about how much bravery it must of took….Hopefully we’re all on this site for the same reason.To expose this lying, greedy, Cult and help others to break free….Shalom
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:59 am
Dear Brie, you and your mother are truly an inspiration to anyone who has the courage to stand up to the Society and this song is for you and your mom and every young person coming onto this web site.
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Ted says:
May 31, 2015 at 7:23 am
In the 50s there was a sister in our cong, who served in place
of a ministerial servant. She also sat in on the COs meetings
and he made no bones about saying she was the best servant
among us. She “Manned” the literature counter.
Of course the line was drawn against making her appointment
official. And as soon as some brothers field service reports
contained the required quotas, she was removed, and he was
given her position. The patriarchal sexist mentality prevailed
That lady qualified in an exemplary way and filled all the
requirements save one, — She wasn’t a man!
In the workplace today that situation would not be tolerated
and would result in expensive litigation if practiced.
Only in extremist, fundamental religions do these backward
ideas persist.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:22 am
@Ted
My grandmother was one of the servants in the 40’s or 50’s. When she was alive, she retained more knowledge of the Bible and history than any male I ever knew in our hall. As a kid I remember hearing that she was counseled on more than one occasion for following up the brother’s comments with correcting comments at the Watchtower study. Never rebelled and left outright though. Wish she had.
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Ted says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:41 am
@ Finn Sawyer.
Ladies like your Grandma, were the backbone of the cong,
and I’m sure they still are. I always thought the sisters were
more spiritual.
Your Grandma correcting the Brothers made me smile.
In one of the local Congs, there was an old “Remnant Bro,
and during the public talk, if he disagreed with something
he would let you know. He would shake his head and could
be heard telling those around him what the right interpretation
was. To say it was disconcerting is putting it mildly.
When he died I helped clear out his house. His stuff was sold
and the money sent to the Org, that he had devoted his life to.
A waste on both counts, and sad.
Nice to hear your experience, thanks for sharing.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:13 am
@J*L*C*R, Lloyd’s comment was a whole lot nicer than the one that I wanted to leave for you. Everything in your first comment was saying that Brie was making up the whole thing. This is how you started out:
“If” she has been in it so long…how come she makes the mistake of “constantly” (She didn’t CONSTANTLY say Jehovah Witnesses like you said) calling them “Jehovah Witnesses” when it’s “Jehovah’s Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness (This should have been a Capital W at the front of Witness as long as you are being so nit-picky) because the word Witness is a PROPER NOUN WHICH YOU EVIDENTLY DIDN’T REALIZE AND SHOULD HAVE KNOWN IF YOU REALLY WERE A WITNESS SUCH A LONG TIME AS YOU CLAIM), disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…(IF again) if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility? I believe her, but man that just troubles me.”
Everything in your first comment was calling Brie a liar and it was very insulting to her. We didn’t hear the experiences of the 3 women in the first person that she talked about but everything else she said is Watchtower policy and IF YOU HAD BEEN A WITNESS SUCH A LONG TIME AS YOU CLAIM, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT. When it comes to the women’s stories, there are plenty of experiences on Youtube to confirm that these things happen to women over and over again in the “truth” and if you have really woken up like you say, then you would know that those experiences are believable.
I for one thought that Lloyd’s comment was a whole lot nicer than how your entire comment was calling into question Brie’s truthfulness and I was glad he said something to you because I thought your comment was really insulting to this young girl that took tons of courage to do what she did. Did you ever do anything to even compare?????
In my first comment to you, I was holding back because I wanted to reply just as Pickled Brain did but I wanted to give you the benefit of a doubt.
This is how you could have worded that comment of yours if you had doubts like you did and if you really did “believe” her like you claimed:
I loved her speech but Watchtower apologists will pick on it because she said “Jehovah Witnesses” instead of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (That would not have raised red flags to us like it did for me.
I had a hard time believing that you are a fader like you said because you sure sounded like a Watchtower apologist to me.)
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:20 pm
@Anonymous, I wish I had you around me when I need some words of wisdom. You nailed it. It’s not the question that was raised it’s the way in which it was written. Great point. My husband always tells me that same thing when I’m wondering why I have offended someone. That there was nothing wrong with what I said it’s the way that I deliver it at times. It’s probably because of my upbringing. I came from a large family of girls & we just said things how we saw it, I’ve had to become more ‘politically correct’ with my approach to people because I realised that they had a different upbringing to me.
We can all come across the wrong way with words on a monitor, that’s why I think face to face contact is so much better when it comes to sorting out differences.
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:24 pm
That’s where I admire Lloyd, he has put his face to his words. I hope that I can reach that point some day soon. I live in a very small community & I still have trouble going shopping & seeing Witnesses that I have known for last 20years & worry about the way that they view me. It’s pathetic but I’m trying to grow a spine & move to the next phase.
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:30 pm
Also, that’s why Brie is viewed so highly by people like me. So young & yet in an age bracket where you’re so self-conscious about everything. She has made me want to be open to people in my area about where I stand on matters instead of curtailing to the WT. That’s what makes me angry at this religion because I never used to be like this.
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Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 1:05 pm
Brie showed exceptional courage and intelligence in exposing the inner workings on being a JW youth.I meant to mention that earlier, but was caught up in all the flurry of comments. Isn’t it ironic that they train youths to be bold and courageous in the face of immense opposition only to have it backfire. I just love that…..
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:07 pm
J*L*C*R you may not like some of the responses you got to your opinions but at least your opinions made it to the point where people could read them.
I wrote a medium length comment that never made it to the point where it could be read. I will submit this and see if this makes it. By the way my comment complied with Cedars posting rules.
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:18 pm
Yew, the above comment made it. I wonder what happened to my other one. Did it somehow get lost in the system?
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:20 pm
It was meant to say “yes” not “yew”. How come all these comments are making it but not my original one?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:26 pm
Apparently, (I must be going into an alternate reality like Lloyd) when someone takes the neutral ground and states the simple fact that if a person makes a series of statements without meeting the appropriate burdens of proof; then they are by immediate default Watchtower Apologists.
EXAMPLE
…well the watchtower says one thing and another individual says another, this person is against the Watchtower; therefore, the standards of proof don’t apply. Let’s all agree with what’s being said despite a lack of evidence to support the argument… just because the person goes against the Watchtower.
Dare say… if anyone does not want to take either extreme viewpoint but tries to calmly examine the facts in front of them, as the arguer presented them… while maintaining neutrality from their personal feelings AGAINST the Watchtower… they must be watchtower apologists.
To not immediately accept any argument that highlights the evilness of the Watchtower is folly. (NOTE: The watchtower is evil…they destroy lives and families but to accept every story that arises without looking at the facts presented is foolishness)
Is it me, or I am the only one person that recognizes the universal fact for all intelligentsia; the BURDEN OF PROOF lies with the person making the argument. Brie made a good speech but until concrete facts are presented, I am not willing to believe her. I am also not willing to believe the Watchtower and Governing Body when they present an argument without proof.
When we listen to a scientist present a new theory, we expect him to bring FACTS to the discussion; not second and third hand stories. It makes for a great story but I don’t base my opinions off other people’s opinions and stories. That’s all Jehovah’s Witnesses do, base their opinions off the Governing Body’s opinions. Since I left the Watchtower, I base my opinions on FACTS.
All I am saying…and I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST…. is to believe someone’s argument, when no solid proof or facts have been presented, (other than THEIR WORD) is no different than believing in something the Governing Body has said. Neither has presented Evidence.
Why should we not carry the same standards of scrutiny to every side that arises? Not just the ones we like or agree with the most?
It’s like saying “J*L*C*R says that he is staying neutral until more facts arise and in the mean time he is refusing to go to either extreme of the argument…he must be an apologist. Grab your torch and pitchforks and destroy his comments with fire!”
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:14 pm
J*L*C*R, I don’t believe everything I hear or read either. If you are having a hard time thinking that such terrible abuse of women happens in the Society, Lloyd had 2 really good articles right on this web site under domestic abuse. Look on the right side near the top. One of the articles is called: Danmera Dinglebum Why did it take so long and the other article is called: Won Without a Word – At what Cost?
The Watchtower has had many many articles over the years about when a wife is being beaten that she is to be a “better wife” and then the man won’t beat on her. If you don’t believe it, you should go to those articles and read them first. Lloyd has many many places that you can go to Watchtower literature to back it up. Women have always been treated as “nothings” and you must be a man because if you were a woman, I think you would understand. It is hard for men to know what it feels like if it isn’t you being treated like a “nothing”.
When it comes to rape, there are multiple articles in the magazines and books and even the Young People Ask book that when someone is raped, that they will be called before a committee so that they can determine if it was fornication or not. There’s tons of articles on that too if you don’t believe it.
At least you came out and admitted you didn’t believe Brie. In your first comment, you said you did believe her, remember?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:50 pm
I do not believe Brie ONLY because there is not enough evidence to support what she has said in her argument.
I do believe in the Watchtower’s crimes against Women and the suppression of their rights. The reasons for this are two fold (1) I was born into a long line of JW’s my Grandmother became involved in 1939; both of my parents were Witnesses and raised me as one when I came along in 1993. I was then baptized in 2007 and have since become inactive. I know firsthand from myself and from my family; instances of physical, mental, and spiritual abuse on profound levels.
The second reason is because of the hard work Lloyd, and others have put forth in providing full proof articles on the topic. Just like the articles you have mentioned; ones with plenty of evidence to prove their point.
Just for the sake of clarity…the only reason I do not believe Brie, the person, is because I do not know her and therefore cannot simply take her word on something without proper documentation and/or proof to back up what she is saying.
I do believe in the Watchtower’s abuse on Women for previously stated reasons.
I hope this clears the water.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:57 pm
What parts of her speech did you not believe?
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:54 pm
J*L*C*R – nobody is accusing you of being an apologist merely for questioning Brie’s story – at least I’m not.
The accusation arises from your insistence on repeatedly driving home your disapproval of Brie’s story with an almost evangelical enthusiasm rather than simply stating your case and leaving it there for the record. You further fit the mold of apologist by creating discord from nowhere by accusing me of being oppressive and insulting merely for disagreeing with you, and first apologizing for being so thin-skinned before picking up the gauntlet once more when another poster rallies to your side. This “stirring” behavior is precisely what apologists do. The most devout Jehovah’s Witness can justify saying bad things about Watchtower while hiding behind a pseudonym on the internet, so I’m afraid making token statements of solidarity with our cause doesn’t let you off the hook.
If you don’t want to be suspected of being an apologist, please try to refrain from stirring up trouble and recoiling with disgust at the mildest provocation. I’m afraid I will have to ask you to regard that as a final warning.
And I can’t help but notice the irony of you complaining about the lack of veracity of Brie’s anecdotal evidence while regaling us all with your own unverifiable stories of “physical, mental, and spiritual abuse on profound levels.” Again, it seems to be one rule for you, another for everyone else.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:41 am
Last night I came to a realization that I would like to share with all of you.
Since Lloyd first posted this article and my subsequent comments, I have had so many sleepless nights. I couldn’t quite put a finger on what was bothering me but last night it hit me like a ton of bricks.
What bothered me so much about Brie’s story was the fact that it brought up so many memories and emotions that had long since been buried deep down.
My awakening from the Watchtower was a series of massive heartbreaking moments after the other. I have never experienced anything so traumatic in my entire life. It tore me down to my most exposed level of humanity and left me and my family with a feeling of abandonment and victimization.
Last night I faced all of these memories and as I think back; I feel as if a great weight has been lifted off of me.
Please understand that I was born and raised an ardent witness. Some of my earliest childhood memories are my family reading the “My Book of Bible Stories” I’m sure everyone remembers that hardback yellow book with the ruby red letters on the cover.
We all fervently believed in the paradise earth. Then to suddenly realize, what you’ve grown up with is a massive lie and a cult as well. It was awful.
I’m not ashamed to say this….
Last night I cried for myself, my parents, the promises and trust that was broken. Then I just cried.
One things I want to say is that this site has helped me in so many ways. The articles woke me up and now the comments section has allowed me to overcome a great crucible and become a better person as I finally put my past behind me.
I would like to thank the following for their helpful debates, kind words of encouragement and their frankness.
Anonymous
Pickled Brain
Grace
Lloyd Evans
I would like to apologize to you, Lloyd. I am sure you noticed my conflict with my comments. Please know that they came from a young man who was struggling to address what really bothered him. You can say my awakening process has left me damaged goods…I don’t know what to believe in anymore. I’m just not strong enough to go through anything like that a second time.
Most of all I would like to thank and apologize to Brie. If Brie is listening, please know that you helped a young man leave a self destructive path that would have left me going to a dark place of depression and worse.
Thank you all! I am sorry I made such a horse’s tail out of myself during this whole transition…just know that now I think I am a better person for it. Please accept my sincerest apologies and know that each of you have helped me take another step forward in healing.
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Cedars says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:05 am
Apology accepted. I hope you’re feeling more settled soon.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:18 am
Thank you, Lloyd. :)
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:09 am
J*L*C*R, I want to reach out through cyber space and give you a big hug!
Waking up from this cult is like going through the mourning of the the death of everything that was dear to us. If you have ever lost a cherished pet or a loved one, it is hard to live through that and losing your entire support system or “family” in the “truth”, is even worse than that. All we can do is be glad that we finally found out the real truth about the truth and didn’t die in the religion, like countless millions of people have already done.
Last year and the year before I also had a terrible experience in what I thought was the “truth” and in a way I am glad that it happened because it helped me to wake up or else I’d still be living in the Watchtower bubble. It was a hard pill to swallow that all the “love” that I thought I had was “nothing” as Brie said in her speech but I am actually happier than I ever was when I was going to meetings and in service and I think I knew in my heart of hearts that all the love in the Organization is conditional and I think I am worth more than that and so are you. We are all worth real friends, not fake friends that only “love” us if we jump through all the hoops to be “good enough for them”.
You can be so glad you didn’t waste your entire life in the religion like so many of us have done.
Be glad about that!!!
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:35 am
Thank you so much, anonymous! Your kind words of support really mean a lot to me. Thank you.
It’s nice to know that there are others who know what it’s like.
:)
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:49 am
Hang in there J*L*C*R, it gets better. We are all here to support each other. I don’t know how to make a smiley face but I am sending you a smiley face too!
danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:40 pm
Your words ring true to all former jw cult members. I lost over 30 years of my life to flim-flam men of the Tower.
I have been out for more than 30 years but the scars still fester. We do feel your pain.
Somehow I believe that when Brie reads your comments….all will be well and good. Thanks for expressions from the heart…
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Excelsior! says:
June 1, 2015 at 2:44 pm
JLCR,
Sir/Madam,
You do realise that this was a school assignment, don’t you?
Did you expect her to have court documents, or witness statements? This was not originally conceived of as a video.
This young lady was obviously upset, and so she fumbled the name of the religion, big deal!
Folks,
May I suggest to all of us to read our comments back BEFORE we post them? We need to think of how our words are going to be read by other people.
Lloyd does a great line in passive aggressive put downs. It’s part of his Northern heritage. It has ruffled quite a few feathers, but he does not deserve some of the vitriol that he has received.
Anything can be taken as an insult by somebody. Lloyd is not rude, he is merely sometimes brutally frank!
I hope that we can all learn to treat others with courtesy and try to all get along.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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danman says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:35 pm
Think maybe Gnashing did his job? A true hit and run hijacking of Brie’s thread.
He is the one that is laughing. Sorry Brie.
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Exhausted says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:38 pm
I am currently watching in the US a series on the Amish.
the shunning factor is too similar to the Jws. I think you
People are arguing over semantics that amount to nothing
But let us get back to the seriousness of family break-ups
And the pain of women who are treated like chattel. The
Loss of friends because of rules and regulations that amount to nothing. I Personally have a life in dreams only
And that is pathetic. I still love the friends I left behind,
But cannot allow myself to go back.
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:48 pm
“…………. before Mr Constante came riding in with his rebuke”
“…… another poster riding to his rescue.”
Not only has my name changed from ‘Charles’ to ‘Mr Constante’, but I appear to have learned equestrianism overnight. All while I was sleeping!!!
Lloyd, when I first starting reading this blog I cringed at some of the responses you made to “real” apologists. They were simply rude and arrogant (I don’t think that many of them deserved it – they are brainwashed like you and I were), but I got over it because I thought you were doing an amazing job of exposing this cult. I respect you for that. You say that you’re not a politician and not here to win a popularity contest, but when you’re dealing with other people a bit of sensitivity wouldn’t go astray. I just want to say that I won’t be posting anymore but will continue to read your articles with interest. Good luck with your mission.
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:39 pm
Thank you for your continued endorsement of my activism Charles. However, it seems beyond your comprehension that you are just as capable of making ill-advised comments and backing the wrong horse as anyone else, including me. I also can’t help but notice your willingness to quote me when I DO say something remotely incriminating, when curiously you weren’t so quick to quote me when you first began accusing me of being insulting merely for saying “You’re easily troubled” and “You’re easily insulted.”
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danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 6:52 am
Perhaps the administrator of this site would be so kind as to place comments in chronological order?
There are discussions going on about posts that no longer appear. Time stamps that do not reflect real time responses.
I hope Brie can overlook all this display of egotism and childish bickering, she did not deserve the above.
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Cedars says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:11 am
Hello Danman
Unfortunately the webmaster and I have busy lives outside of our activism, and the time to sort all the comments into chronological order where this doesn’t occur by default is a luxury neither of us have. I can only ask that you make the best of the situation, bearing in mind that this is a blog that people feel inclined to use as a discussion forum rather than vice versa.
Thank you in advance for your patience and understanding.
Lloyd
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danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 2:48 pm
A fluke is a fluke…no worries.
Seems as though any comments section directly following a ‘blog article’, by their very nature, should be presented in a chronological format, thus helping to reduce what has transpired here on your excellent ‘blog’ account of Brie’s triumph.
Maybe your default button needs a bit of tweaking? If not just ignore my ‘comment’. Thanks for responding.
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Lori says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:04 am
Sorry for what she went through, but how long could she have been a Jehovah’s Witness and seen these things, if she can’t even pronounce it right? Not “Jehovah Witness” (said several times)
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Lori says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:11 am
[Evangelical comment removed, see posting guidelines]
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Ted says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:21 am
To state that you believe a persons statement. Then in the
very next breath to claim you’re “Troubled” ,on some basis,
about the validity of their statement, is plainly contradictory.
It sound like, ( and I put it no stronger than that.). Someone
who mischievously tries to sully another persons reputation
by an oblique inference. A circumstance. I’m sure we’ve
all encountered many times.
We all have a right to doubt and to question, and it’s sound
practice to do so. But I think we need more than supposition,
that’s based on the flimsiest of reasons, before we cast
suspicion on another persons character.
Brie’s video seems absolutely authentic, to me. Obviously
for certain reasons it’s not wise to to give names and addresses.
And where the WTS, is concerned, documentary evidence,
is almost impossible , even for the law courts to get.
The experiences she relates, as to how some sisters were dealt
with. Accords well with how some body’s of elders would apply
the instructions in the “Shepherding the Flock of God” book.
Brie lifted my spirits, and it makes me sad to see doubts cast
on her integrity. By hairsplitting and unnecessary comments.
Reply
j brown says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:41 am
Anyone have the current youtube view count?
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Ohforgoodnesssake says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:34 pm
Well I just want to add to the earlier discussion. Brie did indeed use the word Jehovah Witness, and also she uses the word church. But I tell you what……….she really did the organisation down. I think anyone watching that video, will not be left in the slightest doubt, that JW’s are truly conditioned, and not in a good way. I don’t think her use of acceptable words for her audience will detract from her message.
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Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:49 pm
While we never referred to the KH as “church” within JW circles I would use that word in conversation for non-witnesses so they would understand what I was referring to. It was just so much easier to say “church” than have to explain why our weird religion demonizes words like church and insists on bizarre nomenclature. I think it made sense for Brie to use it, if she had used KH it would have distracted the audience from her other message.
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
avatar
Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
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Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
← Older Comments
Exhausted says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:40 pm
All my life, we called our meetings the hall, and really it was our church. I never referred to the Hall as anything else but…for the outsiders I did say my Church was the
Hall. All the workers and acquaintainces acknowledged
That. It is funny in retrospect how they somehow as
Drunk or as wierd as some of them were, they respected
Our lives, and called us do-rites. If They only knew the
Inner doubts and conlict that was there . If I helped any
One that is a coup. I on the other hand fell straight down
On my face. Always being the martyr. I Am tired. Do
Respect this little tiger for growling at the men we all feared and in so many ways. Bless you all…
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 3:22 am
Even though the Society wanted us all to think that the word church was a bad word, this is the mean from the Webster’s dictionary for church:
Church as a noun: l: a building for public and esp. Christian worship 2: the clergy or officialdom of a religious body 3: a body or organization of religious believers: as a: the whole body of Christians b: Denomination c: Congregation 4: a public divine worship 5: the clerical profession
Church as an adjective: 1: of or relating to a church 2: of or relating to the established church
Reply
Rosie says:
June 2, 2015 at 4:17 am
The use of “Church” was never used when I was in the Org. However that seems to have changed now. I was called upon recently by a pioneer sister who did not know who I was – she used “Church” several times during her presentation to me, and I am aware that this terminology to describe the KH has been said to others who have been witnessed to.
Reply
James Broughton says:
June 2, 2015 at 5:00 am
The Watchtower always used to use the word ‘religion’ in a bad sense but now seems to have softened its stance, or, at least, sees itself as the only true religion.
Reply
Ted says:
June 2, 2015 at 8:33 am
When my daughter was to be married at the K hall. She
managed to get it announced on national radio, and the
DJ pronounced the venue as the “Ringdom ” Hall.
Which I thought had a nice ring to it, and appropriate for
a wedding.
It crossed my mind at the time, how little was known about
JWs. The WT, articles were proclaiming how the worlds
attention was focussed on us. How we were a thorn in their
flesh and the governments of the world would be angry and
try to annihilate us.
It’s all so silly , how could I ever have believed it? However
even though they are insignificant, compared to their own
estimation, and the world doesn’t give a toss about them.
They are a life destroying cult, many times in a literal way.
So it’s good that more facts are being made known about
them, on sites like this and on You Tube. Brie’s video is a
great contribution to this end.
Reply
Elka Tire says:
June 2, 2015 at 12:06 pm
Hello,
You can get the spanish subtitles for this video in this path:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59436690/Sp-subtitles.rar
El Kato
Reply
Silent admirer says:
June 3, 2015 at 12:45 am
Great going Bree. It is because of people like you and Cedars we get the hope that our loved ones can be pulled out of this rabid cult. My cousin is trapped in this cult for the past 7 years. Considering this cult is a minuscule percent of my country’s population (India , 35K out of 1 billion) , this site has been immensely helpful in understanding JW’s for someone who is not from Christian background. Hope my cousin learns the truth about the Truth soon.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 3, 2015 at 6:42 am
@Silent Admirer . Nice comment & VALID point about only 35,000 JWs in India with population of 1 Billion . NEVER in a Billion years will those 35,000 give a Witness to everyone SO Jehovah will have to READ HEARTS of over 2 and Half Billion people come Armageddon . So WHY Doesnt Jehovah Bring ARMAGEDDON today & read everyone’s Heart, because IT Would SAVE a LOT OF HEARTBREAK & SUFFERING to All those who are MILLIONS DYING of MALNUTRITION ,WATER BORN DISEASES ,MALARIA,HEART DISEASE ,CANCERS,STROKES,WARS,EARTHQUAKES,TSUNAMIS,ETC !!!
SO WHY DOES JEHOVAH PERPETUATE SUFFERING as HE is GOING TO HAVE to READ HEARTS Anyway ????? SO WHY NOT READ THEM TODAY !! The LAST DAYS Have GONE on LONG ENOUGH !!! UNLESS the 607 bce to 1914 Ce interpretation is WRONG??? We ALL KNOW HUMAN GOVERNMENTS CANT RULE PROPERLY !!!
PERISH the THOUGHT …, COULD the 7 GB in Brooklyn be WRONG???!
Reply
Elka Tire says:
June 3, 2015 at 9:27 am
Cedar,
If you want to add the spanish subtitles you can download the file in:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59436690/Sp-subtitles.rar
El Kato
Reply
Exhausted says:
June 3, 2015 at 11:04 am
Just a while ago I heard a clip from a Fritz Springmier
Who did extensive research on the beginnings of the Society. It was mentioned by him that the Rothchilds
Funded Charles and as for the name Kingdom Hall, the
Hall part was from the Freemasons. It is just a thought
That sort of pulls the bloodlines together little by little.
Don’t quote me. I am just the messenger. A very tired one.Ha.
Reply
just asking says:
June 3, 2015 at 10:58 pm
Kingdom hell, hole, whole, hall, church or whatever, don’t worry abt them. I understand some are getting sold. Now that is what I call the good news of the kingdom. Then maybe be we could sale off the Jehovah witness brand. Maybe Tony should fire the rest of the F&DS doesn’t the Bible refer to a single slave? or were they 7? Didn’t the 7 fire the “remnant”? Well, I mean we don’t believe in the Trinity, why believe in a “sevenity”? It is all abt to come to an end.
Reply
Thinking of leaving says:
June 4, 2015 at 12:56 pm
I think watchtower needs more people like this standing up to them.
Reply
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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146 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
Newer Comments →
X Leonhart says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:41 pm
It’s really disgusting to hear those parents words…
I have two daughters and nothing in this world could make me leave them alone, no matter what they could do, I’ll be there to help them.
It’s horrible to see how cruel and cynical this cult is…
Reply
DAC says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Exactly. How could a parent ever say that there would ever be a situation where “they wouldn’t be there for them”. Awful.
Reply
Erik says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:11 am
I know personally not all JW parents will or can follow this. I never considered it. An elder and his wife have moved in with their DA’d son. They moved a distance from their old community. They have no intention of not helping him, they consider his issues, and they also have no intention of missing out on their grand-daughter’s life! His mother did tell me privately that she knows other JWs have other ideas, and so she doesn’t share her viewpoint with everyone. But she must have felt safe to share it with me. I know of another mother who refused to shun while her DF’d son struggled with addiction, quietly doing what she felt Jesus would do.
Reply
awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:41 am
Yes, but therein lies the issue. Everyone knows a Jdub that doesn’t agree with one policy or another, but the fact is, they are doing it in defiance to what comes from the slave, and in effect, what comes from jehova.
My parents are stuck in that quagmire now. I haven’t Da’d myself, so we can keep playing that silly little loophole, but things are strained between us because I clearly want nothing to do with the org. As such, they really don’t have anything to say or do with me.
Considering this draconian black and white ,”us versus them” nonsense keeps getting plugged into their brains, it’s a wonder we’re even cordial.
Simple human decency dictates that shunning someone over a disagreement is wrong, but when their god keeps telling them to do so (Deut. 13:6-9), their hands are tied in the matter.
Reply
Ejay says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:45 pm
The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.
This should be a solemn, mournful thing. No one should be congratulated or encouraged.
And regardless of what their son did, should wanting renewed association be his primary reason for returning or should it be love for God?
The ‘Society’ seems not to care, just as long as you come back and can be another number in a yearbook.
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:55 pm
RE: “The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.”
I’m not so sure that the entire assembly audience comprehends what is said from the platform.
At one assembly I attended, the speaker read a list of figures which indicated increases in whatever the category was: Field service hours, books placed, newly baptized, congregation attendance, numbers of pioneers — whatever. A round of applause followed each increased number announced.
Then the brother read a number that showed a decrease in one category and a round of applause followed. I and several others sat there silent as thousand of people applauded the decreased number.
I’m guessing that many, if not most, of the assembly delegates are totally numbed by the continual boredom that they aren’t really comprehending anything that is said from the stage.
Reply
Swallowtail says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:52 pm
So it wasn’t the child’s love for Jehovah that sucked him/her back in, it was the love for the parents. Isn’t that missing the point? How can those parents and audience stand there and not see the failed logic in that approach? OH and even better, lets make the mom in her grief continue to push her emotions aside and push on in the ministry to get more people to shun. How sad.
Reply
awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:45 am
It’s never “love for jehova”. It’s never, “I missed giving talks and comments at the meeting.” In the end, it’s always “I couldn’t stand the loneliness and I just wanted my family back.”
When you’re in, they do a great job of instilling an insular mentality in your mind. So when you’re out, you’re nothing more than an island of one. You can’t make friends with “worldly people”, or trust them to any real extent. It’s really only a matter of time before you break down and come back.
Reply
Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Wow this is amazing. How can you shun your family I will never understand or agree with it. It’s happening to me personally and to hear them say it’s hard for them wow so disgusting. How about you choose to love your child and do what you know is right. It’s pretty obvious that shunning is wrong and damaging but they actually think that they are right wow pathetic. Figure it out how can you not see through the propaganda of the org honestly…
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I almost vomited after seeing this. We all know that watchtower denies a policy of shunning. The only good to come out of the video is that it proves there is a shunning policy. It is an “own goal ” by watchtower. The cat is out of the bag. Conditional love is not love. You don’t need to be a psychiatrist to see that their reasons for the vile act came from
mentally disturbed minds.
Reply
Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I was turned down twice in my judicial committee and the main thing they said was I was only doing it for my family and that wasn’t the right reason. So not ok for me but its ok for there kid…. Yeah so happy I’m chose to never go back to that cult !
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:05 pm
Sometimes I ask myself, how is possible that so many atrocities where committed in WWII? How is possible that the catholic church practiced the inquisition? I also ask myself how is possible that the jw.org is so potent in controlling people brains and behaviour to the point where parents shun family members for life. To even let children die for refusing a blood transfusion. Do they really believe those seven men are special? Come on! how can the JWs be so stupid and ignorant. These men are not special but the life of your son or daughter is special. If you inflict such a cruel punishment to a person it cannot be undone.
Jesus preached a message of freedom, where him alone is the master. Those seven lunatics enjoy having a superstar status and misinterpret the Christian message.
Your family members are a gift what the jw.orgs says is just guesses if not fabricated lies. Please JWs do some research and see yourself the amount of rubbish teaching these people have produced. Have you watched may jw tv broadcast and the amount of lies said by Mr Lett?
Reply
j brown says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:13 pm
I can’t get over how goofy daddy Sutton looks and much of a basket-case mommy Sutton comes across. And then to have these two on the convention program. Simply laughable!
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:43 pm
It is also amazing the fake image that they portray of themselves. They really know the best in propaganda techniques.
If you watch their videos it looks like everything is perfect, the love in the organisation seems abundant. Come on JWs! is that what you really experience in your local congregation? I constantly heard complains of old people being neglected. I can see from my experience that the kingdom halls are full of depressed people. Young people are mostly apathetic and without real aim. Their greatest satisfaction is standing hours next to a JW cart advertising non sense. Playing videos explaing 1914, come on, that’s a joke. Non intelligent people can believe such a teaching made of unrelated scriptures pasted together.
When they talk about cart preaching they say that the results are amazing. I live in a big city and never seen such amazing interest from people. The JWs seems like part of the city landscape, like traffic lights, buses.
My collegues never talk about them, nobody talks about them. But for them everything they do is historic, is amazing!
I will never understand their mentality!
The JWs are famous for portraying themselves the best people on earth and the rest the worst people on earth. That is a complete lie. They are like anybody else with a bit of delusion.
Do you think people are amazed knowing that JW parent shun people that make the adult decision to follow a different path in life?
Do you think people get interested in the Bible when they know the amount of false interpretations taught by the JWs?
Reply
Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:35 pm
@David,
So well put. Especially the fact that they will brag about how wonderful they are. Anyone knows that when someone has to spruce so much about themselves, there is something really lacking. A happy person doesn’t need to go around pronouncing how happy they are. A good person doesn’t need to tell people how good they are.
Reply
John Chapman says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:45 pm
‘a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Matthew 10:36
For the son despises his father. The daughter defies her mother. The daughter-in-law defies her mother-in-law. Your enemies are right in your own household! Micah 7:6
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:24 pm
What is the significance or relevance of those Bible verses, John Chapman? Merely rejecting JW twaddle should not be a cause for enmity. Disagreement about religious doctrine certainly caused wars in Christendom’s blood soaked past, and is the spur to the horrors committed today by ISIS, Boko Haram and others. But to make an enemy of your child simply because they do not go along with your religious notions is nothing short of obscene. Please explain why you have printed those Bible verses. What possible relevance do they have to this horrible story?
Reply
SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:46 pm
That is a really good video to circulate. It shows the pressure the organization puts on it’s members. I liked the part were the mom says “I told them if they ever left Jehovah I would have nothing to do with them.” Yup, because the organization IS God.
Reply
SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:15 pm
The dad says that he needed to step back and let Jehovah discipline his child. Since the organization = God he is saying to give up parental ties and let the organization at the child. If you substitute Watch Tower for every time they say Jehovah that video gets even creepier.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Lloyd,
Good read, and excellent exposure of this cruel practice. No natural affection, indeed. I would sooner die than do this to my kids. As of yet I have not been “discovered” by my family. As much as I’d like to spill the beans and try to bring them over, clear the air, I’m thinking I should stay a mystery after reading this.
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:10 pm
According to them even if you are a good person with good standards, values and perhaps still a believer you should be shunned for life. If this isn’t madness what it is?
Honestly having parents so stupid and blind is a misfortune. I am really sorry for these people because one day they’ll release how stupid they are.
They are ruining people lives and precious family bonds for blind religious fanaticism and extremism.
How would they feel if everybody shuns them? if they loose their jobs?
If somebody decides to follow God it must be a spontaneous and a free decision not dictated of shameful mafia tactics.
Honestly when you see these things is better to turn page, because these people are brainwashed and cannot understand common sense. They are like possessed. They just listen to their seven american false gods that are all busy with gigantic materialist projects mocking Christ example.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:32 pm
That video clearly shows that it wasn’t love for God or even the Organization that made that child come back “spiritually” but it was missed association with the family. How can those people be proud of that? You would think the first reason would be that he missed God if it really was the “truth”. I hope that kid gets himself reinstated and then stops going to meetings.
Hopefully when he gets a little older and can piece it all together in his mind, he will see that the love from his parents is conditional and shunning is nothing but blackmail and his parents are walking, talking, unfeeling brainless Watchtower zombies.
Reply
Dee says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:04 pm
I have to wonder if someone at Bethel asked them, no…told them, that they would give their experience and make an example of their shunning of their child. I hope it was difficult and awful and painful for them to do. It’s shameful and unchristian.
Reply
Darlene Alexander says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:05 pm
“I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there.”
Conditional love at its finest!! Why did that child return? To be with their Family – NOT with the religion. At least they are admitting to their emotional blackmail – it matters not that the child still may not ‘do Jehovah’s will’ – just that the blackmail WORKED! They are getting sicker and crazier every day.
Reply
Dblaron42 says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:11 pm
Where to begin? Wow. There is a TV show on PBS here in the states called ” Keeping Up Appearances”; and I think one of the most ironic things in my experiences with the Borg (via my ex-wife) was that my ex absolutely LOVED this show… it used to kill me that she did not see the correlation of this show to how the borg operate.
Thankfully I do not have to deal with their crap anymore… and I have made it abundantly clear to my daughter that I would never ever ever shun her because we have different beliefs. Sadly she cannot count on the same from her mom.
Reply
Mama Joy says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:30 pm
This sickens me….
Out of all the scriptures that states “Do not judge” or “show love” hundreds of times in bible ….. Yet, the JW’s pick one scripture that says something (when taken out of context) that states to get rid of your family. ……. So they take this one misused scripture to justify betraying their own children and casting them aside like the Samaritan woman. …… “Whoa to them that hurt these little children!”
Reply
Ted says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:11 pm
Is this why we bring children into the World ? To impose our
beliefs on them ? So denying them the right to develop their
own ideals, their own philosophy on life?
How self righteous to assert ones own beliefs are the only valid
ones. And how harsh, how brutish, to withdraw natural affection
and association until our children conform.
To use the love that exists between family members, as a weapon
to control is obscene. It’s a method familiar to fascists and
dictators.
Reply
Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.
Reply
Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:40 pm
@Susan,
Fantastic reasoning & using their own literature too. Love the comments on this.
Reply
alanv says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:54 am
Thanks for that comment Susan. It truly is amazing that the org condemn others for doing exactly what they do, except they do it even worse.
Reply
Karen says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:07 am
Perfectly said. Your point here is one of the things that contributed my awakening. Hopefully others are making note of this contradiction and starting to wake up as well.
Reply
J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:14 am
Susan what an awesome post. Can you site specifically the article in June 2013 you are referring to? That would be a big help! I’m having difficulty locating it. Thank you.
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Having watched the clip a second time I observed a few things missed after the first viewing. Those two watchtower automatons used coercion and hate in a twisted plot to recapture the kid. No one mentioned how the kid felt. That woman complained about how bad it was for her. How bitterly ironic it is when the man said they had a “fun night”. I would rather watch paint dry. I am not very articulate so please excuse the meandering. The kid was shunned because he was not toeing watchtower`s line. Hate rather than love was used to coerce the kid back. From watchtower`s rheumy eyes, the return should be to a fabricated entity known as a god. The kid did what it took to be reunited with his siblings and his progenitors. The entity was not in his equation to regain his loss. The kid will do just enough to stay within watchtower`s conduct parameters. I am bemused that there is not a great outcry aimed at the psychotic seven. Watchtower is more sinister and more dangerous than Jim Jones. This should chill peoples blood. As a very x jw I know what they are capable of. I believe that it will not end well.
Reply
withheld says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:08 pm
As a Jehovah Witness father with three young children I’m terrified about them becoming baptised. There is no way, or under any circumstances would I ever shun my children. And I know, I too would probably be disfellowshipped for this. I would love to leave this organization but there’s no way out. All of my family and friends are witnesses. I will do anything to keep my children from becoming baptised until they are of legal age and it’s their own choice.
Reply
danman says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:27 pm
So good to hear comments like “withheld”, I think there are many jw who are in similar thinking when it comes to child baptism. Your stand certainly is in more harmony with the scriptures. Jesus fully attained adulthood before baptism……what support does the GB have for haranguing jw parents to push their children into the baptismal pool? That is the real question.
Reply
Mara says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:34 pm
So infuriating when WT uses these experiences to try to prove that the emotional blackmail of shunning is loving and brings people back to the fold. For every person it brings back to WT, (for all the wrong reasons, I might add), there are probably 100 who avoid WT due to this sadistic practice. It was one of the very first things I finally had to admit was cruel and wrong…one of the main reasons I left the cult after 40 plus years! But they don’t feature experiences like mine on the program, do they!
Reply
Trish Karr says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:16 pm
Being raised in this cult I know exactly how they operate. Yes its called emotional blackmail where they teach their followers to cut their loved ones off should they leave the religion, and blackmail them to return back to the religion if they want to be loved by their families or loved ones! Feel free to watch my award winning Documentary which was made on the story of my life. I tell all. How I was raised in the Jehovahs Witness religion and left to create a life of my own. Im living proof its not too late to change your life because life is what you make it. You can see my film online its called “Witness my Journey from Jehovahs Witness to Australia’s Party Queen” hope you enjoy watching it. It may enlighten those that are finding life difficult since leaving the religion.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
Hi Trish,
Looks like when you left you not only threw the baby out with the bath water, but the entire kitchen sink too!
Can’t say I agree with your libidinous way of life or your moral abandon, but my thoughts are with you in your efforts to help those suffering from breast cancer.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:58 am
Hi everyone. There is another anonymous here. This is not the same anonymous above commenting as the one who comments often.
Reply
airborne says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:50 pm
What a cruel practice. Those parents are heartless.
Reply
steve says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:56 pm
Just wondering how this couple was “qualified” to work at Warwick when obviously not presiding over their household in a fine way? If their children are adults then what sacrifice have they made? If their children are underage then they shouldn’t qualify for extra privileges of sacred service.
Reply
jay says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:17 pm
if only things would change somehow and GB would allow reform then so many people wouldn’t be so messed up. I long to see the day when this organization changes and cleansed of its hypocrisy..
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:55 pm
In 1968, the 192 page book The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life was published by the Watchtower Society. Laying the ground for shunning appeared early on in chapter 3, paragraph 12 on page 16:
12. “As you examine God’s Word, you will learn that your love for God will be put to the test. There may be individuals, perhaps even close friends or relatives, who will not approve of your examining the Scriptures. (1 Peter 4:4; Matthew 10:36, 37) They may try to discourage you. They may do this in all sincerity, because they do not know the marvelous truths found in the Bible. Perhaps you can help them. In other cases the opposition may come from persons who have no love for God. If this should occur, remember, having God’s approval is far more important than having the approval of men. It is God, not man, who will give you eternal life if you love him above everyone and everything else. (Matthew 22: 37-39)”
Later on they add on more powerful scriptures, such as this one:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25-26).
Those who disagree with the Governing Body and those who try to save you from this cult must be shunned.
Reply
Kat says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:23 pm
How can they equate leaving an organization of false prophets to leaving God?
As if God would have anything to do with this organization of lying false prophets! they dump their own kids in exchange for following 7 deluded liars and false prophets. Sick
Reply
Andrew says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:01 am
It’s all so hypocritical really. My parents didnt want me around for 10 years after I left but when they got older and to the point where they needed me to care for them they changed their tune. And the elders were the ones who told them that the congregation was not in the position to help them as it doesn’t do aged care. This happened after my father was loudly trumpeting to one and all in hospital that the congregation would help them. When the elders got wind of this they told him to be quiet and let their socalled apostate son do all the work. Hypocrites really.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
I know of an elder that has given talks on how children should be responsible for their ageing or ill parents, but yet he doesn’t care for his own JW mother instead his mothers sisters husband cares for her and he has been inactive for over ten years, he feeds cares for her board free, I asked her why doesn’t your son care for you why should my brother have to financially support you, her answer he has three children and a wife to look after, yet my brother has his wife and son and works full time, and he is ill has had buy pass surgery, the elder Son of the mother is over twenty five yrs younger than my brother.
The hypocrisy stinks, and told this elder son exactly what I think of his hypocrisy, he just walked away.
Reply
mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:43 am
This is awful! I had just uploaded a video two days before expressing the hurt I have suffered from my parents doing this very thing to me.
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Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:22 am
mpm, I listened to your video and it does say exactly the same thing about your mother’s conditional love that the Society’s video of these two parents and how they looked at their son the very same way with only conditional love (not love but attention appearing to be love).
One of the very first things that new people are taught when they “study” the Bible with Witnesses is that they have to put God first in their lives, above all our relatives and friends. We were taught to do that but I was never under that much cult control that I could ever even think of saying such a despicable thing to one of my children as what your mother told to you.
It is so ironic in that Witnesses love to quote 2 Tim. 3:1-5 about how in the last days there would be critical times hard to deal with and one of those things depicting the last days would be having no natural affection and if any people perfectly depicts having no natural affection it is Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are the very epitome of having no natural affection.
Does the Society turn people into non-feeling, uncaring human beings or are non-feeling, uncaring people attracted to the Watchtower? Either way, they are non-feeling and uncaring and under cult mind control of a very evil Satanic organization.
People who are that controlled are capable of anything. They can be convinced that they are saving the lives of those disfellowshipped (or dance around like a chicken as under the hypnotic control of a hypnotist), but in the end, they are more convinced about the saving of their own lives at Armageddon than they are about saving the lives of their family and friends who have fallen away. It stands to reason (if a person is able to reason) that to shun a loved one just for not wanting to be a JW anymore, will only convince that other person more than anything that it truly is a non-Christian religion since Jesus taught love and forgiveness with the parable of the prodigal son.
The parents in this demonstration, show that they are arrogant and proud that they love the Organization more than their own children. In the Bible, arrogance and pride is not something that a God loves however. If these people were crying on stage, I might feel differently about them but they seemed very arrogant and proud to me. I don’t think that their children have any real feeling for them. I bet if you were to talk to their children, you might hear a very different story than the one they told on stage.
Reply
Tony says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:16 am
When 2 JW ladies showed up at my door about a month ago I told them how disgusted I am by their practice of shunning. One of them tried to justify it by comparing it to sending a child to their room. When I told them of people suffering PTSD as a result of shunning they left.
Reply
da' says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:27 am
@ Erik
There you go, perfectly said. Keep you mouth shut and your family is YOUR BUSINESS, especially when it comes to YOUR CHILDREN. People wont know or talk about what you havent revealed to them. You may also think confiding in a close friend will bring encouragement . Wrong , it only brings more drama .
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:45 am
mpm I viewed you video a couple of days ago, and really touched my heart, so sorry for what you are going through, and I love your work.
Reply
mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Hey Kat, thank you for the kind words. It was shocking to see this shunning video right after I had posted, so sad.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Going back jus to be with your family is a catch twenty two, you have your family but on the GB terms, and the agony of having to sit in every meeting while you just don’t agree is torment and one would feel like a hypocrite, its so sad, and it is emotional black mail.
Oh how I wish this religion would lose their charity status for this as its against human rights, and just maybe they would change.
This is what they print in the Awake for the public.
July 2009 Awake p29: “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.
Reply
sirius says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:57 am
A few points of curiosity. How often do children return to the fold after being shunned, and what is THAT success rate? Do shunned children tend to rebel more? Is love conditional in the JW (faith) or unconditional? And lastly, if I were to put on a catholic hat I would silently close the door(shun) on all JWs, Mormons, Seventh Advents and anyone else who claims to be Christian but denies the Deity of Christ, Apostolic Faith and brings another teaching of another Jesus?
The early church never practiced shunning of excommunicated members. So, if a shunned female was on the roadside with a flat tire not one JW would come to her aid? This is what I find cruel & unusual punishment in the mind set of the JWs!
IMHO
Dogstar
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:08 am
Interesting when I became a JW I was asked to write a letter to denounce my baptism of my former faith, I was never baptised even as a baby in another religion, so I didn’t have to but many did, including a few of my relatives that were later converted.
But none of my relatives ever shunned any of us, because we chose a different belief, they were to pleased and now I know why, but still they never shunned us or treated us badly, always invited for get togethers, tolerated our no birthdays and xmas.
But as JW we are told to shun our own flesh and blood if they chose to leave even if they don’t join another religion, even when they are children. Its a cult.
Reply
rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:22 am
every time Jehovah witnesses are coming to my mind, is like some one gives me knives and remind me the years I lost in this organization under the deceptive of influence. the middle ages is still here.
Reply
Michele says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:41 am
This makes me sick to my stomach. It just boggles me how parents can think emotional blackmail is loving. If a child only comes back to the “truth” because he misses his family, NOT because he actually believes in the religion, is a joke in itself. The mind control and endless indoctrination that convinces so called “loving parents” to behave this way is disgusting to me. I should know. I dealt with it for 5 years. The pain this causes to everyone is despicable.
Reply
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
146 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Melka says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:42 am
This is all on the Organization as far as I’m concerned. I know plenty of parents who are supposed to be shunning their kids, but still communicate, and I have even myself in the past thought they weren’t doing the right thing by talking and communicating with their children, since there was no reason to come back if they didn’t feel “alone” and punished. It’s so disgusting. But being a formerly brainwashed individual, I can understand. And you are honestly so worried about that person dying at Armageddon. It’s unfathomable that this is a trap just to keep you in so that they can get their money, and you’re not allowed to talk to that person who might have license to google “history of Jehovah’s Witnesses” or something like that. That’s not even the thing that woke me up, but once I did, I more than anything else was so disappointed in myself that I actually shunned people that I did love. Mrs. Sutton did love her child, even though he was DF’d, there’s no question in my mind. We just need to see the demise of the Organization. These poor people think they’re saving the lives of their loved ones, by shunning them. If her child stayed out of the organization, she would probably go to her grave worrying about how her child will die at Armageddon. They’re mentally captive, and it’s hard to get free.
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rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:51 am
The father: i am thinking where I was wrong? you don’t know where you when wrong? Is very simple. You and you wife teach your children the lies of the watchtower, and your children want to find out the truth, man The Hitler paranoid of inhumanity have contaminated the Jehovah’s witnesses brains. Nether he’s children have the right to examine the watchtower teachings in order to please seven man, and three stupid elders.
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sparlock says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:19 am
“Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.”
Thats exactly what i see in my mother. Her children didn’t become witnesses and she says beeing a pioneer is the only way to cope with this situation. She would rather kill herself than stop preaching 70 hours a month for the organization.
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Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:52 am
The parable of the “Prodigal Son” demolishes the shunning
practice. The son was not kept on a short leash, he was
allowed to follow his own inclination, even though it was a
bad decision.
The father imposed no conditions on the sons return. The
way back was always open. “No strings attached”.
When the son did return. There was no meeting of village
elders to determine repentance, or whether a period of
probation was necessary. There was no legalistic system
interfering in what was purely a family concern.
The father saw the son in the distance and ran to him and
embraced him, showing spontaneous unconditional love.
The son then acknowledged his error without any coercion.
The joyful reunion of father and son was not accomplished
by shunning, ( which often results in a permanent rift ).
But by “Unconditional love”.
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Pickled brain says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:25 am
@Ted . Your Comments are SO TRUE! The PRODIGAL SON is the WAY Jesus showed us how to treat Repentant Sinners…….INSTANT ASSOCIATION
NO JUDICIAL COMMITTEE of 3 ELDERS!!! NO ISOLATING the Repentant one for Maybe A YEAR or SO until 3 FALLIBLE ELDERS choose to Re-Instate the person or not!!! WE ARE ALL SINNERS & FALL SHORT of the Glory of God(Romans 3v23)
The PHARASAICAL 7 BROOKLYN GB MEN!!! GO Beyond ‘What is Written in Scripture’ & in Revelation that is Punishable with Death!!!(Rev.22v18,19)
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Rick says:
June 7, 2015 at 8:09 am
Very good way to look at it Ted, I’ve often thought the same whenever I hear the example of the prodigal son used. Also, the son was hungry and homeless so he came back to live with his dad to be able to enjoy what he had before. The dad didn’t think twice, his love for the son was big and unconditional. The JWs should really “read” into this story and apply it in their lives but as long as the brain cord is connected to the mother ship (WT) I see very little chance of changes.
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David says:
June 10, 2015 at 9:25 am
That is a great point. The son was away from his father not because of being shunned. The son departed and was way, but his father was ready to show him love in any way possible. He did not place any conditions upon the reinstatement of their relationship. For as much as JW’s like to use this parable, they completely ignore this important part of it.
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just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:45 am
I simply hate this organization, I really don’t know why I committed myself to it. I’ve grown up in this thing. they’re the only people know, they’re the ones who connect me to all my work. I would really wanna leave bt this whole disfellowshiping thing terrifies me. If I fade, all will know & will ask qns. I just don’t know.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 11:28 am
@just asking, when I stopped going to meetings (after 50 years) several asked me questions but didn’t want to know why I stopped going, except for one very nice person (not baptized but attended meetings) but most avoid me. Thank goodness, when she asked me why I quit, she assured me that she wouldn’t tell the elders and come to find out, she also hates the religion but didn’t have anybody else to confide in and when we got to talking, we shared a common belief that it’s a fraud. Her daughter who I studied with and was getting really involved, is fading also. My husband has told me that he hardly ever sees either of them anymore at the meetings (which makes me really happy).
If it’s any consolation, what are the Thursday night meetings like where you attend? If your Kingdom Hall is like I think most Kingdom Halls, there’s maybe half the attendance as when there’s a Circuit Overseer visiting. My husband said that last Thursday night, there was hardly anybody there and one of the elders gave a congregation needs talk which basically telling the congregation there was nothing to worry because they see the attendance being so low.
I had the courage to stop going and I think there’s a lot who force themselves to put their bodies in those seats because they are afraid of being stigmatized if they start missing meetings but you have to live your life your way. Don’t be a puppet to those people.
Don’t get to be 60 years old before realizing that there is no real love at the Kingdom Hall. It’s all conditional (which isn’t real love anyway). You don’t need that kind of love. We all deserve real friends and real love.
I personally wouldn’t write a letter of disassociation because in effect, you are saying that you are disfellowshipping them. It is all up to the person. If I disassociate myself, then I know that two of my children would be compelled to shun me and I don’t want them to have to go through that. If I didn’t care about anybody at the Hall, then I would write a letter of disassociation but I care too much about my children to do that to them and there are a bunch of really great people at my old Hall that I don’t want to do that too.
If you read Crisis of Conscience, you will see that there is no way that any God could be backing the Watchtower organization. It’s a fraud, passing itself off as a legitimate charity and sooner or later, the truth will come out and we will all be vindicated. It can’t go on forever. At least I hope I live long to see it collapse.
If you are young, please be your own person and don’t let that Organization control the rest of your life, just for fear of being disfellowshipped. There are real people out there who will be your friend and you will never find that in the Organization.
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Wanderer says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:15 am
@anonymous another fantastic post! There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love from JW’s!
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J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:26 pm
Outstanding comment Anonymous! You hit the nail on the head for a lot of people.
I got deep into the fading process when I started community college and became very active on campus. I enrolled right after high school, when most of my JW friends were pressuring me to pioneer. Needless to say that ruffled a-lot of feathers at the hall. It was not until the 2013 convention when I heard “any continued education is a temptation to ensnare yourself in Satan’s system, through bad association and etc; if you go to college you are a tool of the devil.”
I heard that and immediately walked out of the assembly hall, enough was enough. Three generations of my family gave their youth to the organization; I refuse to do the same. I was pressured into getting baptized at 14, that was a huge mistake.
Stay strong, having family involved is the worst part, I share your pain. Expressing myself here has helped me a lot, as you know. The healing process is long but it’s still one foot in front of the other. Know that you are not alone in your struggle.
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Observer says:
June 10, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Your true family will love you unconditionally
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Lee says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Great post, well done, I am fading too, and I refused to be visited by the elders.
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Queen Elsa says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:37 pm
I’m in the same situation… :( I think many are.
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kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:26 pm
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
– Frederick Douglass
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Shanti says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:27 am
There are many good articles available on the internet regarding the “Art of Fading”. Here is one.http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/leaving-the-watchtower-fading.php
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just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:54 am
How did I get myself into this trap?
Why did I bow to the pressure of getting baptised @ 13. One is better off a worldly man that a disfellowshiped jw.
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Finn Sawyer says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Because…like me you were only 13, and that says it all.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:30 pm
Same here… I was 14.
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Al says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:47 pm
It’s not your fault u were 13 how were u supposed to know. I was baptized at 12 with no understanding of the implications that would have later. I just quit going altogether 2 years ago and it is a total relief. So much anxiety every meeting and not feeling like you are doing enough gone!
I’m lucky though my family will still talk to me. I basically told them it wasn’t for me anymore but didn’t go into anymore detail and they left it at that. I thought about dissociating but that would result in my family shunning me since my dads an elder. So Im just inactive and am content with that. People in the hall will eventually give up trying to convince you, and you can start getting on with your life without interruption.
Sites like this one among others helped me to realize I am not the only one who went through this. Your not alone!
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ruth lee says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
hmm funnily enough i had a coversation with my children this week both not nbtzd pubs yet we discussed df a bit my boy cannot get his tender heart around this poor boy i will have to toughen the little blighter up! irony folks i took both my children in my arms and promised them no matter what they do i will never ever ever shun ignore or turn a cold shoulder to them until i draw my last dying breath thay are my wonderful gift from my creator so why would i ever trash that draw your own conclusions feeling a little stronger day by day
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Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 1:05 pm
In this interview we have spelled out for us, the real reason,
why many disfellowshipped ones return.
The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to
return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
So it was affection for the family, not the religion, that motivated
his return. Now the Son is compelled to go through a
meaningless routine, just going through the motions of being a JW.
Not worshipping in Spirit and Truth.
The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting
cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no
worthwhile purpose.
Reply
Honza says:
June 10, 2015 at 5:22 am
yes, yes!
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kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:12 pm
“but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there”
It would seem to me they have an issue conflating God and Religion, when they are seperate entities.
Is it not possible to be close to God and reject religion? Because thats exactly what Jesus did.
It would seem the quote really meant, “if you do not follow the philosophies this organization has set, no matter how they may change…”
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Thetroof says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:25 pm
This org Is so cruel. I cant believe I fell for baptism at age 12. I was too young to understand anything
The GB is equal to Satan who can turn into an angel of light.
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Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:40 pm
Ted excellent post
“The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
“The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no worthwhile purpose.
Reply
J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:21 am
There are a number of excellent arguments being made here. I’m going to take the liberty of re-posting one in particular that necessitates repeating:
“Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.”
Thank you Susan! What specific article were you quoting from? Is it from the public or study article of WT magazine?
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:04 am
@J Brown, that quote is from the June 2013 Awake article, entitled “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
Reply
Jbrown says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:53 am
Thank you Anonymous. Found it! Wow just wow! I’ve heard of people who speak out both sides of their mouth. WT takes the cake on this!
A must read: June 2013 Awake “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
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Innocent Son says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:56 am
So many excellent comments on this article.My brother who was a Elder at the time was completely broken when his eldest son rejected the ‘Truth’ He followed the Watchtowers’ instructions and disowned him.This gut -renching cruel practice contributed to his Mental Breakdown and demise.A parents’ love should be unconditional, just like the parable of the prodigal son…
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just asking says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:22 am
I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half are nt interested? Why can’t they just provide room for baptism cancellation especially for some of us who were minors at the time of baptism? I am in a meeting right now but all am listening to is nothing but rubbish. I even can’t believe I once believed this nonsense. THIS GONNA BE MY LAST ONE.
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:25 am
@just asking, when I became convinced of all the lies of the Society, I stopped cold turkey with going to meetings but it still took me quite a few months of worrying what if the Society is right about Armageddon?.
If a lot of people are like me, the meetings were boring and tedious and I had to force myself to go in service each month and I dreaded assemblies and I hated to think of all those friends at the assemblies who wouldn’t see my face there at meetings and assemblies. It was all those things that made me keep going.
Now that I see how completely what a fraud it is, I only pity all those who are still in that situation and can’t get out except to stop going to the meetings like I did and then have to go through what I am going through right now, knowing what the real “truth” is but not being able to tell them.
The thing is though, that we have no way of conversing with all those who are still going to the meetings to find out just how they feel. I would bet though that the scare of Armageddon is what keeps the majority going even though in their heart of hearts, they wonder if it’s all bunk and they are being made fools of?
That is why Lloyd’s idea this web site is simply genius!!!
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Alan says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:00 am
I can see a lot of parallels between the apostate shunning issue and the trials of the LGBT community. Being such a strong advocate (without exception) for human rights, I regard John Cedars as being something of a silent hero for this oppressed group, and I’m sure he, more than most, can relate to their experience of social isolation. As the recent developments with Bruce-now Caitlyn-Jenner have shown, there is still considerable resistance to enlightened human expression, and shunning must be recognised for what it is: a cynical weapon that is used to limit our freedoms. Let us all stand together on this issue, regardless of our sexuality, creed, colour, beliefs, etc. Take courage from Bruce’s decision to become Caitlyn, regardless of the hateful reaction of an increasingly small-minded minority. We shall win this war for the sake of all humanity. It’s our time now!
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Sarah says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Agree!
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rob says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:04 am
I knew so many individuals that got reinstated just for the ability to associate with their family and friends.
After their reinstatement most of them never went in service again and rarely attended meetings – but they got rid of the shunning.
This proves to me that reinstatement has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual guidance – just another crazy procedural and pharasiacal rule.
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danman says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:33 am
Just asking, asked:
“I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half aren’t interested?”
All because of one man Joseph Rutherford. A pompous self centered (charlatan) who considered himself appointed by Jehovah and the angels to interpret God’s Word (?) the bible. This man who enjoyed not one but two 16 cylinder Cadillac’s, fine silk shirts, a farm on Staten Island (my mother his personal maid), illegal beer and wine cellar during the prohibition, hundreds and thousands of then known Bible Students at his every beck and call. Then had the gual to build a mansion in San Diego and say it was built for David and other bible characters, who were coming back very soon. By the way, my father drove those caddies for him, and also carried a 45 Smith and Wesson automatic for da judges protection. My sister has the license to prove it in our family records.
This fellow is responsible for almost all of the jw doctrine still followed today. He ushered in fanatical stands on Christendom, neutrality, flag salute, no blood, no christmas, no birthdays, 144,000 vs ‘other sheep’, only organizational appointments of elders etc., and he personally cemented these teachings by making outlandish asserstions regarding ‘millions now living will never die’, ancient bible characters coming back to life on earth in 1925 and even after never gave up on it for several years thereafter.
He ruled with an iron fist, he was chief writer, chief editor, chief of all chiefs, my father said that the judge could tell someone to jump off the cliff, and that person would feel hard pressed to no do as he was told. Talk about strong personality, he had one and more. He personally mentored Knathan Knorr, Fred Franz (of 1975 fame), Milton Henchel, and other neophytes who were to take over the helm upon this charlatan’s death in 1942.
The answer to your question imo is simple, it is men who have accepted other men as representatives for God himself. These people actually convince themselves that even when the utterances of these self proclaimed men of God are proven absolute garbage, with no evidence or even semblance of accuracy, the errors were allowed by Jehovah God…..so that future arrogant self appointed men of god can correct the errors (by new light) of the old former men of god. Get it?
Belief in any interpretation of the bible message is in and of itself giving full trust in man. Because you cannot point to any religious doctrine, policy, rule, or pronouncement, that does not somewhere sometime originate from a man or group of men. Right?
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:04 pm
Do not worry, Jehovah’s Witnesses (including those parents) are imitators of their god Jehovah when it comes to coercing people who courageously reject his/her dictatorship.
(Amos 7:17) . . .this is what Jehovah says: “Your wife will become a prostitute in the city, and your sons and your daughters will fall by the sword. Your land will be apportioned out with a measuring line, and you yourself will die in an unclean land; and Israel will surely go into exile from its land.”’”
You see, they resemble their god!!
Reply
Alex says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:13 pm
The fact that this practice of shunning is encouraged by the WTBTS, of which I am also a victim too indicates so strongly to me that this organisation in Britain needs to be investigated fully by the Charity Commission and put to task to.prove how it benefits the community by actively encouraging the tearing apart of families, the foundation of any community. It needs to be stripped of its charity status, and its tax free position and exposed for what this mind numbing cult is: A dictatorial, ruthless and self absorbed movement out to destroy lives, spiritually, psychologically and in some cases physically. It has to go!!!
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Excelsior! says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:33 am
Alex,
Have you complained to the Charity Commission about shunning yet?
If not, I strongly urge you to do so. You can complain online!
I encourage all of us Brits to do so if we have not already!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
BeenMisead says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:18 pm
I hate the expression in the “The Truth”.
Here’s why:
Was it true when Rutherford said in 1919?:
O “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.”
O “Armageddon is coming in 1925.”
O “Abraham, Moses and other notable men of faith would be resurrected in 1925.”
Was it true in 1969 when Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz said?:
O “If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things.”
O “Armageddon is coming on or around 1975.”
O “The generation of 1914 will not pass away until the end comes.”
O “In the 1980’s they said: The end would come before the end of the 20th Century.”
—————————————————
All of the above was NOT true!! So if anything it should be called “The Falsehood”!!
Reply
Misha Anouk says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:42 pm
I found this video especially hard to watch as I imagine my parents would say the exact same thing. This organization is getting more and more gross by the minute.
On another note: Is this the same guy who has been featured on the monthly broadcast?
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Sarah says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:48 pm
Oh wow. I can almost guarantee they use my parents for this part. Either that or they will have to sit there ashamed and crying. I’m not sure which hurts worse.
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:15 pm
@Sarah, I can’t think of anything that could hurt worse than having your parents ashamed of you just because you don’t share their religious views.
No matter how good a person you are or what you have accomplished in life, you are nothing to your parents if you don’t share their religion.
A person can divorce a cruel mate and go on with your life, but everyone needs a parent’s love. What young person can afford a therapist when they are being blackmailed into faking a belief in their parent’s religion just so they can stay in their parent’s good graces?
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Sarah says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:49 pm
Thankyou for those thoughts:( I sometimes feel like people are starting to expect me to move on. But I will never get over the rejection from my parents, sisters and brother. I know that.
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anonymous says:
June 9, 2015 at 7:07 am
Sarah, this is a really good video for all of us experiencing Watchtower abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IshP0WONWqI
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ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 7:30 pm
It’s interesting how the Watchtower Society has presented two opposing views on how to deal with children who have gone wrong. Contrast this assembly shunning experience with the video in the link below, where no shunning occurred.
In the Watchtower video “The Prodigal Returns”, we are presented with an upper-middle class family in which two brothers work with their father in a construction business. The family constantly dwells on pleasing Jehovah by spending every possible moment in personal study, attending meetings and going out in field service.
Then, the younger brother decides to pursue a worldly career and his older brother (who would have made a great Nazi) tries to shame his little brother into giving up this idea. The little brother leaves home, goes to the big city and ends up wallowing in sin and degradation.
Once the younger brother realizes his mistake, he returns home to the open arms of his parents and his congregation. All is forgiven — except by the older brother who feels resentment because his father has lavished affection on the younger brother who sinned and ignored the older brother’s total submission to Watchtower proclamations.
Finally, the family in the video, who did not shun their child, is reunited and they all live happily ever after — just like the assembly family who did shun their child. Now we have two Watchtower approved methods which can be used to bring prodigals back into the fold.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/prodigal-son-returns/#?insightsearch_id=0364613b-4340-4aec-90a7-193f31ddf17d&insightsearch_result_index=0
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 7, 2015 at 9:03 pm
What a Joke these people have come really completely delusional. And when you become that way then you become psychotic in nature eventually. Your living in a altered reality without any regard for your actions upon your own flesh and blood. These are mentally sick people devoting their life to men and not the God of the bible
Reply
Vivian says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:33 pm
What do you all think? Are the seven guys making the calls in NY simply indoctrinated coupled with not very thoughtful and thorough in their reflections or are they completely aware of the farce they have continued? Are they simply models and heirs of indoctrination trying to save people and their families from armageddon? Do they truly and honestly believe they are being moved along and used by a god? I would think that before I could believe my actions and thoughts were being inspired by god I would have to be clearly and completely mentally sick. But, indoctrination is a very strong strong force. I cant decide. In the lightest brightest terms i would call the men “irresponsible” and “thoughtless” and at worst, “monsters” and disgusting immoral garbage.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:51 am
@Vivian, my personal opinion is that Lett thinks he is in the “truth” because of the way he gestures when he gives his speeches. It’s like he’s using every point on the speech counsel slip that we got at the Ministry School when we were giving talks and being counseled but the others don’t seem to care about gestures etc. I think if Lett realized he was caught up in a huge scam, he wouldn’t care about getting G’s on his speech counsel slip.
When Losch gives his talks, he reads them and he is always referencing the Watchtower and rarely references the Bible. He says it like this: “The Watchtower says this and the Watchtower says that”. I think Losch is not stupid and realizes it’s a scam but doesn’t know how to disillusion 8 million people with coming out and telling the truth and basically destroying all their hopes and dreams and admitting to the world that they had devoted their lives to nothing and even lost lives due to blood. If that is what has happened to these men, then to me, that would have to be the worst position to be in because it would mean that they really do have a conscience but are caught in a trap they can’t get out of.
David Splane I think knows it is a scam and doesn’t know how to escape. When he gives talks, he seems like he’s in some kind of agony with worry written all over his face.
Sam Herd (with his gold watches) seems to me to know it’s a scam but will take it if it means power and prestige and doesn’t care about the rank and file.
The rest, it seems like to me, are like non thinking ostriches with their heads buried in the sand rather than face reality (big bodies and small brains).
My old Kingdom Hall is full of ostriches and I was one of them until about a year ago so I know how it happens. It happened to the best of us.
If I had a conscience and had any doubts at all and I was one of the Governing Body members, I’d be so torn, that I don’t know how I could live through it without quitting like Ray Franz did.
That is what makes me wonder if they have consciences or not or are just so worried about what it would do to 8 million people to find out it is all a scam.
Maybe they can’t even tell their own wives about any of their doubts because they are too afraid to. They can’t confide in anybody either, just like the rest of us can’t.
I can’t think of a more hideous situation to be put into.
Reply
Vivian says:
June 9, 2015 at 9:09 pm
Yes i agree it would be a terrible place to be in if you began to doubt/ saw the facade once you were at the top. If they were to topple the organization, dismantle it, what would happen to all these older ones that have given their lives and hopes and futures to the org. Some bad stuff would happen.
Reply
Mike says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:40 pm
Hello Lloyd I hope you don’t mind me using your first name.
If you haven’t (which I doubt) have a read of Ray Franz
In Search of Christian Freedom, Ch10 Sheperds of the Flock and Ch11 The Misuse of Disfellowshipping I recommend it to everybody who read your last blog.
Thank you for this site and your courage.
Mike Sydney Australia
Reply
Silent admirer says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:00 am
This is the idiot organization my cousin seeks to follow. To what levels of depravity these JW’s have to go to for him to open his eyes. Curiously he has never considered that by his own standards , his father should have called my cousin apostate(He is Hindu) and kicked my cousin out of his life.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:37 am
Thank you for the latest post/video and all of the work that you do, Cedars. This is a painful and difficult subject and you are adept at handling such with honesty, insight, and compassion.
There have already been many beautiful and heartfelt comments posted. Not much I can add but one perspective:
As a person who was disfellowshipped, I felt for many years the guilt and shame borne out of the belief that my family and Organization had the “moral high ground”. I no longer hold to that illusion and neither should anyone else out there who has been kicked out (or walked out), shunned, rejected, and discarded.
One important thing to note is that the people in this video, like many other JWs (including my family), are not basing this decision (and other decisions) on an evaluation of moral tenets but in following orders of their religion and leaders. They have been indoctrinated to relinquish their ability to think for themselves and instead of exercising their moral agency they simply fall back to “just following orders”. This, arguably, is an amoral stance. Part of me has some compassion for them. But, history will not be as kind. Modern society has come to understand that “just following orders” is indefensible.
I noticed a number of posts by people who stay in so as to avoid being shunned. My heart goes out to all of them. I cannot and will not speak for them or their circumstances but, as for me, I no longer feel compelled to hold on to my family. In 30 years, the only time they contacted me is when they wanted money or something else. Their love is conditional. Their currency is shame and guilt. They happily and mindlessly adhere to the rules and use love as leverage. I have no need of that and, frankly, I refuse to negotiate with extortionists. What I gave up I have more than gained. There are better people just about everywhere else.
Reply
Beige DelFuego says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:44 pm
My family,well,the ones left in the cult,are cherry pickers as well.They pick and choose which parts of the bible suits them at any particular time.Incredibly greedy and parasitic,none of them have real jobs,they just wait till a family member dies,and then they go to court to see what they can get.Often times,the more immediate family members of the deceased,are still in shock about the death,and are not really even willing to fight.Therefore,its a win for the vultures.
Reply
DAC says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:19 pm
To StrongHaiku,
That was an incredible post. Couldn’t have said it better.
Reply
gameisover says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:48 am
And what about kids that completely shun their elderly parents?
That’s even more pathetic.
That is what is happening to us.
I feel sure even those from ISIS don’t do that t their parents or to their children.
THis is truly an evil cult masquerading for the true religion.
Reply
James Broughton says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:16 am
Gameisover is correct. An evil cult masquerading for the true religion. The only ones who can’t see that are the JWs themselves. But there is hope. Many of us were there once and we came through!!!
Reply
just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:23 am
JF Rutherford put it right when he referred to his “religion as a racket & a snare”
Reply
Christian Sparlock Freedom says:
June 8, 2015 at 10:50 am
Great Article
Reply
just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 12:03 pm
Recently an elder called me asking for a report because the Co was coming. I asked him if that is all he cares abt, a report not the reporter. I had not appeared for some time at the meetings. I told him, He just made me realise that they really loved me.
He laughed, I knew he’d not understood me. I hung up. He immediately called back still asking for the report & explained how it was important to update my card before the co visit. I told him I never preached. He then told me to get serious. I told him I loved him & feel the love.
What am saying is that nobody cares abt your wellbeing @ the kh, all they care abt is how active you’re in their activities.
Reply
M Saurus says:
June 9, 2015 at 9:13 am
Same thing happened to our family about 3 years ago right when we started to fade. An elder called us to get our time since we hadn’t turned it in for several months (we hadn’t preached, and had been to maybe 2-3 meetings in several months). The CO was coming that week. We told him we had no time to turn in. He said he’d put us down for an hour for each month – surely we’d mentioned the truth to someone – we said no we had not – not sure what he did – but he would rather lie about our time than ask us what our issues were.
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 8, 2015 at 12:43 pm
I just brought myself to watch the video while trying to be as objective as possible about what was being said. All i can say is the demonstration was totally scripted and staged and not from the heart. mmmm i wonder why DuH! Those parents should be ashamed of themselves and put in a mental institution for the atrocities they have brought upon their children.
Stepford brainwashed people. Im happy the son rebelled and its only a matter of time when he gets stronger and smarter and leaves for GOOD!
Reply
Beige DelFuego says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:40 pm
So,please help me to understand.The children are taught to think,they go out and see the world,and when they come up with ideas that vary from their parent’s religion,they are shunned? Not able to speak to the rest of the family that is still in the church?How is this love?What is the incentive to ‘come back to the fold”? Its blackmail,isnt it?
Reply
anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 3:37 pm
@Beige Delfuego, JW kids are not taught to think. They are taught to believe JW dogma and only JW dogma and if they do start to think and start wanting solid evidence like how do we prove that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 586-587 B.C.E., they will be told to “wait on Jehovah” and if the Society is wrong that the Society will change the doctrine that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.
The problem is that the Society has been proven wrong in many areas and since those teachings are essential to the religion living or dying, the Society will never change those core beliefs.
If a child gets baptized (shamed into it, if they don’t want to do it on their own at a very early age), then once they start to question core beliefs and want solid answers after being baptized (which they won’t get any answers that make any sense because those core beliefs are all man-made doctrines and not Bible based) the child has to make a decision: Either stay in the religion and go along to get along or start wanting answers (which they won’t get and told to “wait on Jehovah and finally realizing they have been scammed) or fade (considered weak and bad association but can still be talked to) or disassociate (write a letter which then determines that they are disfellowshippng themselves and shunned as bad association).
No matter how you slice it, children are coerced and tricked into getting baptized at an early age and can only associate with other Witness kids while they are under their parents’ roof so they aren’t allowed to make friends outside of the religion and so when they leave the religion and they have been baptized, they face a life of being shunned. Children or even adult Bible studies are never told anything except what the Watchtower wants them to see so they never hear anything else except good things about the JW religion and never anything bad. The Watchtower counts on children and any Bible study being ignorant about the Bible and they are all ignorant about the real history of the Watchtower organization before getting baptized.
Nobody in the religion is allowed to go onto so-called “apostate” web sites or read any literature that is critical of the Society. If they do read literature or do go onto “apostate” web sites and find out about all the lies and cover-ups, they are not allowed to tell anybody about it (even people outside the religion) or they will be called before a committee and disfellowshipped for apostasy if it has been found out what they talked about it to anybody.
What the Society will tell the person is that they brought “reproach” on Jehovah but what they really mean is that they cast dispersions on the Watchtower religion.
The Witnesses have been led to believe that God is the Organization and speaks through the organization and that if they do anything to make the Society look bad that they are bringing reproach on God, which is like the worst sin of all because they really do believe that God is directing the Organization.
All people who study with Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught early on that God owns them and own the world and made their life possible and they owe their life to God and so whatever God asks of them, they have to do and that includes putting God first in their lives. Bible studies are told early on that God comes before family members and friends.
If they had any friends before becoming a Witness, they are told that those old friends and relatives will want them to disown the religion and persecute them until they stop “studying” and Satan is using those people to draw them away from the “truth” and so paranoia sets in right away and so they either disown all their old friends and relatives, or bring them into the “truth” too so that they can all live together and live through Armageddon together into the “new world”.
If Witnesses don’t try and “witness” to all those old friends and relatives, then the Witness is made to feel guilty that they don’t care enough about those people to witness to them and so that is why some Witnesses make pests of themselves at any get together they may have with relatives or friends. They actually think if they don’t “witness” to those people that they are signing their death warrants at Armageddon.
Most Witnesses think that and it takes months and months of being out of the religion before those feelings go away but it’s web sites like this is what helps people to realize that those fears of Armageddon is no different than any other religion that uses the fear of being burned in hell is what keeps most people belonging to other religions as well. It’s either the fear of burning in hell or being killed at Armageddon. It’s just a evil cult tactic to keep people tied to a certain religion.
Reply
Jonathan Drake says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:57 pm
I have always found it telling (while a believer I found it strange) how the shunning practice is supposed to work.
Why do they return to jehovah? Is it because they love him? No. Is it because they love the organization? No. The bible? No. Is it even because they learn their lesson? No. It’s because they miss their family! They even freely admit this is the reason and they never seem to notice that this in no way is an indicator that they learned any lesson or changed anything for any “good” reason. They just missed their family.
Or would think this fact being freely admitted in front of thousands at a time would cause some sort of dissonance.
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:27 am
Just the fact that they only miss their family is the reason they come back should tell you in the first place that they really don’t care about the religion to begin with. Many have gone stealth and faded out and some avoid being tracked down by the elder police so as not to be disfellowshipped. I have heard of cases of elders disfellowshipping individuals just on hearsay without them ever being present at a judicial meeting. You don’t even have to say anything. These higher ups will do what they want and how they want irregardless of what the Bible really says. They are Grandmasters at being illusionists.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 9, 2015 at 2:55 am
There is something really odd about Brenda Sutton in the video. If you maximize the screen and just watch her eyes, she seems scared of her husband or else very insecure about herself the way she keeps looking up at him and fiddling with her notes and he never looks at her at all. He seems proud of himself but not his wife. I see a woman who isn’t happy with her life at all.
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:36 am
Spot on observation about the wife. They were both very nervous trying to deliver their not from the heart experience but rather a scripted demonstration. Hopefully one day they may look back when it all falls apart for them and they wake up and realize what a fool they made of themselves in this video. If she was my wife I might not look at her much either. Not a very secure person for sure. They may love their child but obviously in a limited capacity if you are willing to give it up for a manmade religion to begin with.
Reply
Nemorino says:
June 9, 2015 at 5:59 am
It’s exactly this kind of exposure, to the media and the uninitiated public, of material intended solely for an uncritical, worshipful audience will ultimately prove their undoing. What’s being said and practiced in the darkened corners of Watchtowerland is dragged into the blinding glare of daylight.
Then too, one can’t help but wonder how one who cynically suppresses his misgivings and succumbs to the humiliation and grovelling required for readmittance, cannot bitterly resent (1) the family that insists on it; and (2) the elders and the organization that subject him/her to the humiliation of running their gauntlet of harsh scrutiny.
Reply
J*L*C*R says:
June 9, 2015 at 1:25 pm
Lets hope front-line news gets this story and airs it on international TV.
Reply
Spiritualbrother says:
June 9, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Quite an evil cult.
Reply
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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146 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
← Older Comments
RC says:
June 10, 2015 at 2:02 am
Hi ,
Have got the following books :-
1) Captives of a concept
2) Raymond Franz’s (Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom)
3) The Gentile Times Reconsidered
4) Steve Hassan’s (Freedom of Mind and Combatting Mind Control)
Is there any other books which is required reading for helping our loved ones get out of this evil cult. Please suggest.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 10, 2015 at 2:54 am
@RC, another good one is “The Armageddon Cult” by Daniel LeEarl Hall and I liked “The Four Presidents of the Watchtower Society” by Edmond C. Gruss and also “Apocalypse Delayed” by M. James Penton.
Crisis of Conscience was my favorite followed by In Search of Christian Freedom but The Gentile Times Reconsidered is really good too. The thing that I like about The Gentile Reconsidered is how he shows from 17 different ways, how 607 can be disproved and that the Society even admits in one the Society’s own publications that there is no evidence for 607 but they are waiting for it to happen some day to prove that they were right after all. Also, it shows how unchristian and dishonest the Society is when they disfellowshipped Mr. Jonsson when he proved the Society wrong about 607 to keep him quiet. Doing that to that man, was the lowest of the low and it shows that they will resort to throwing even the most honest and sincere Witness under the bus and destroy their reputation to save their own skins and their publishing and real estate empire. Doing that alone to that man, should be enough of a reason why any honest Witness should take a stand against the Society and never attend another meeting until those men on the Governing Body grovel at the feet of 8 million Witnesses, begging for their forgiveness for what they have done to them.
Reply
David says:
June 10, 2015 at 9:33 am
I never realized that the WTBTS was soo secretive about its shunning practices. After an episode of JWPodcast where it was mentioned how they deny it I dug around the jw.org site and noticed how they mention things like “people are free to leave” and are very vague about something that every rank in file JW knows is hanging over them like a guillotine should they stray away and break the rules.
Even the way its presented in this video, the speaker as the representative of the Society did not specifically make any mention of the shunning, the parents are directed to express what “helped” bring their child back into the fold. The mom finally says that she told them “I will not be there”, and all I can see is the reactions in the crowds of people nodding their heads in agreement and approval.
They don’t have to outright say it anymore because its been soo ingrained that every JW knows what she is saying. Its incredibly insidious and evil.
Reply
Fedup says:
June 10, 2015 at 10:46 am
People are waking up from the truth! Guess this will be a common practice now … optimizing. :-)
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-09/sale-of-jehovah-witnesses-halls-an-expansion-plan/6533544
Reply
anonymous says:
June 10, 2015 at 12:55 pm
@Fedup, they could sell 90% of all the Kingdom Halls and the rest still in the cult would still believe it’s the “truth” because, after all, didn’t the Society predict that “the love of the greater number would cool off?” The Society are experts at cult mind control and it’s so sad. If 90% of all the Witnesses fell away, the 10% would be prouder than ever of themselves.
I am glad I am not one of those fools who may experience the downfall last when all those around them could see the writing on the wall and got out when when the gettin’ was good. Right now, they are all still riding on an arrogant high.
Someday, they will look back and remember how stupid they were. That is what I am doing right now.
Reply
Mac says:
June 12, 2015 at 12:58 pm
Anonymous, I very much enjoy reading your comments. You present cohesive thought out arguments. Sometimes I have noticed that you look back at the years spent in service to the organization as a waste. I can understand as I feel I have lost valuable time myself. But your life experience gives you a great amount of credibility, you really know the inner workings and subtleties of this organization. I thank you for your valuable insight. There are some excellent comments on this post, thanks to all the contributors and to Lloyd for providing this service.
Reply
Kat says:
June 10, 2015 at 11:05 am
David they lie to the public about shunning.
“A spokesman for the church in Australia, Sydney solicitor Vincent Toole, dismissed the allegations and said shunning was a”myth.”
http://www.smh.com.au/national/jehovahs-witnesses-a-cruel-cult-20130315-2g5x3.html
Reply
Observer says:
June 10, 2015 at 12:29 pm
I was raised a Jw along with my two sisters in the 70s. I have proof from long ago up until now they shun family members of all ages . This is very sad. My mother is the only one still a Jw. My dad never was he died in Jan and mom just won’t let go of this cult that has controlled her for 50 years.
Reply
Andres Torres says:
June 10, 2015 at 3:57 pm
Wasn’t this a youtube video? Looks like the original was taken down in only two days. Amazing!
Reply
Exhausted says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:09 am
Anonymous….AMEN.
Reply
Barb Moor says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:54 am
I’ll bet “Family Fun Night” at their house sucked big-time. These people are robotic. As Cedars said, it’s all about them and their suffering.
One thing that intrigues me, over and over, is that they feel this discipline is DIRECT from Jehovah and don’t accept that it’s often slanted/ignorant/biased/bored/hateful elders that dole out this punishment. Yikes.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 11, 2015 at 7:24 am
Barb, I can’t imagine how much fun that “fun” night was with those parents. They did everything “right” in their eyes by going to all the meetings together, having their weekly Bible study with the kids and going in service together and then they “scheduled” a family night together that was supposed to be fun. Their life sounds like it was so structured like it was a blue print they were following.
The mom also says she kept up her pioneering so that basically was a full-time job for her. With any full time job for a woman, means that when she gets home, she’s got another 3 hours of homework to get done every night. So, what time did these people have for a close relationship with their kids?
To them, scheduling a “fun” night with their kids was supposed to keep this kid protected from outside “bad” influence for the rest of his lie and from getting a job that “led” to his getting disfellowshipped.
What did his getting a job have to do with their training anyway? Obviously, the kid was out of the house by that time because they said they didn’t have anything to do with him anymore and that wouldn’t have been possible if he still lived in the same house, or else they kicked him out of the house when he got disfellowshipped.
If they kicked him out of the house, that would have looked ever more cruel than how they treated him in the demonstration and I have a sneaking suspicion that is what happened but they had to leave it out just in case “apostates” would have taken that and run with it.
If the kid was out of the house and living on his own, then why in the world, would they have wondered what they did “wrong”. Once a kid is out and on his own, their job is done. They can’t be responsible for what he does once he leaves the house.
Are these parents so arrogant to think that what they did as parents is going to keep him “protected” from outside influence the rest of his life? What parents can watch their kid every minute of every day for the rest of their lives? People need to realize that once a kid leaves the nest that they are now responsible for themselves and can’t blame the parents for their mistakes (if it was a mistake so then why would the parents ask themselves where they went wrong?)
If the kid was out on his own and did something to get himself disfellowshipped, then the parents could have said something like: “We hated to do it, but we followed orders from the Society so as to make him see the bad course he was following so he’d come back to the “truth” and save his life. It was really hard for us to do, but all we cared about was him living through Armageddon so we had to be strong.” That would have made more sense than the only explanation of why he came back was because he missed the family.
I have a feeling that the kid couldn’t survive on his own and that they kicked him out of the house and he came groveling back because he was starving to death or something like that and he had no choice but to come back and follow their rules to get back in their good graces.
You can tell by the look on the mother’s face that there is a whole lot more to the story than that little 3 minute skit.
All the Society was trying to accomplish with that story is that if parents want their kids to come back into the “fold” that they have to shun their kids. But for every one kid that works on (which they will never talk about), there’s probably 30 it does just the opposite and makes them more sure than ever that no loving Christian religion would treat an erring child like that and make them more determined than ever to never have anything to do with it.
I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 out of at least 20 kids that I personally know of that got disfellowshipped and never came back. I am glad for those kids that they saw it for what it really is, even if they don’t have anything to do with the parents anymore. The kids are better off.
Some parents who really do love their kids cry when they talk about those kids but others are arrogant and could care less about those kids now. The parents who really do love those kids and do shun them, are miserable. I think that contributes to so many in the congregations being on anti-depressants.
In that video, the guy introducing those parents made a comment like “perhaps” there are some in the audience going through this very thing…I can guarantee you that probably most of those people in that audience are experiencing having to shun a loved family member or a close friend. It has to be the most depressed group of people on the face of the earth because of the shunning policy.
Also, the kid’s job isn’t want caused him to get disfellowshipped. It’s like the leaked elder’s video. It wasn’t the girl that forced that kid to commit fornication. He did it on his own. That girl didn’t rape him.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:21 pm
What sort of brainwashing techniques teach parents that totally cutting off a child is normal and appropriate. As a parent I can’t ever imagine how I could do that to my Kids, not ever.
There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love of the JW’s.
Reply
just asking says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:10 am
Blackmail is criminal in the part of the world I live.
How possible is it to get hold of this book elders use for judging others? I need a lawyer to check this out.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 12, 2015 at 10:36 am
Shepherd the flock of God, the elder manual, is available as a PDF on line.
According to the lawyer for the WTBTS in Australia, they can get away with this because the baptism question 2 acts as a verbal contract.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Ted says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:22 am
“Their life sounds like it was so structured like it was a blue print they were following.”
Nicely summed up Anonymous. We were instructed to make out a schedule
for all our activities. The CO would ask, are we sticking to our schedule?
He would then counsel to let relatives know when we would be at meetings
or out in f, service, so they wouldn’t turn up and interfere with the blueprint.
( There was no time allotted for “Worldly” flesh and blood.)
“Family fun night” AH ! at last, a rest from the Bible, Sorry! No competitive
games, no worldly video games, no card games. Heaven forbid !
Let’s make it charades, identifying Bible characters. — When I used to get
together with other JWs for a social evening ( After the meeting)
it always ended up with that kind of “Entertainment”.
No wonder they have a problem with youths leaving.
Reply
wifibandit says:
June 12, 2015 at 11:43 am
The same type of shunning will be praised around the world. Here is another example, in Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n884ylRFsCA&feature=youtu.be&t=1h1m48s
Reply
anonymous says:
June 12, 2015 at 6:07 pm
David Splane gave the weirdest talk on jwbroadcasting called “There was no 1900 year old Faithful and Discreet Slave”. I listened to it over and over again and as far as I can tell, even though the name of the talk is that there was no Faithful and Discreet slave for 1900 years, the closest description that he could come up with is the Catholic Church. He talks about the Catholic Church being the first of preaching the Bible all over the world and he doesn’t say anything bad about them after that and then he gets to the end an just ends it with “and so there was no 1900 year old faithful and discreet slave. That talk even though it was interesting, seemed really pointless to me.
I take back my earlier description of agony and worry written all over his face. I don’t know what to think of his personality, whether he’s deluded or dumb.
Reply
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New videos are constantly being uploaded to the John Cedars YouTube channel.
Here is a playlist featuring the most recent uploads…
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11 Responses to Videos
KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
Reply
george says:
August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
Sorry Cedars, I can only access the first video on my I pad. There are a lot of over sized play icons and they won’t work.
Reply
Luke says:
October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
Reply
Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
Reply
Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
Reply
Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
Reply
Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
Reply
Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
Reply
Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
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2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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