Monday, June 8, 2015
JW Survey comments on shunning talk at convention reposted
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Welcome
Welcome to JWsurvey.org, the online voice for Jehovah’s Witnesses
of the past, present, and future.
JWsurvey.org is the proud home of the 2014 Global Survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you are, or ever have been, a Jehovah’s Witness – please take this survey! Even if you were never actually baptized or have been away from the Witnesses for many years, we encourage you to have you say and share your opinions regarding the Watch Tower Society, and its leaders the Governing Body.
If you are a current or former Witness, you will know only too well that doubts are not permitted among the brothers, and the Governing Body expects and demands your unquestioned loyalty. If there is any teaching you are uncertain of, you must “wait on Jehovah,” which effectively means burying your doubts and pretending they never existed. Over time, these suppressed doubts accumulate until you are nothing more than a robot, going through the motions and doing what is expected of you – but never truly believing it 100%.
Jehovah’s Witnesses who have doubts are expected to “wait on Jehovah” by effectively burying them
If this describes your current situation, then please be assured that there are hundreds if not thousands like you who are at various stages of waking up to the reality of the JW faith. As you probably suspect already, there is more to this religion than meets the eye, and the Watchtower literature has not been telling you the full truth about the organization’s history.
The trouble is, even if you no longer agree with the Governing Body on a number of issues, you may feel (as many do) that you are bound to the organization against your will through the cruel practice of shunning. Though the Society argues that shunning is scriptural, it is actually anything but. Shunning was instituted by the Apostle Paul to keep congregations clean – not as an instrument for tearing families apart.
This and many other damaging practices are dealt with periodically on my blog, which I encourage you to check from time to time. I do my very best to keep Witnesses informed as to what is REALLY going on in the organization, rather than giving them the kind of carefully-manicured information you will find in JW.org articles and press releases.
Please enjoy using this site, and treat it as though it is yours. After all, here you are free to be yourself and exchange opinions about the organization with others. All we ask is that you do NOT try to use our website as a platform for evangelizing religious or atheistic views. This website is religiously-neutral and has been set up as an indoctrination-free sanctuary. We appreciate your help and cooperation in keeping it that way.
We hope you find the information on JWsurvey useful, and that our efforts can play some part in your spiritual journey. Remember: You are no longer the silent majority. Your opinion matters. Now make it count!
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143 Responses to Welcome
Newer Comments →
Mark Davis says:
January 29, 2013 at 2:03 pm
New to the site, look forward to reading more of your material.
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Randy G. says:
March 3, 2013 at 6:20 pm
Hi Cedars,
Congratulations on your 2012 survey. You clearly have engaged in a labour of love and no doubt some financial expense as well. Just having an opportunity to voice concerns regardless of our current status and involvement with the faith can be cathartic. To what extent will the Governing Body read your report? Unless they directly responded one could never know. Nonetheless having a substantial package delivered by UPS as you’ve arranged no doubt has some impact — even if it was just thrown away.
Consider too what current GB members might hear from the average member. No doubt much of it is praise and we-so-love-the-organization type of comments. Nice, but not really intellectually stimulating. Thus I would not be entirely surprised if some of those in leadership positions pay a fair amount of attention to dissenting voices, especially when expressed with respect and well articulated. I know when I served as an elder and Bill Bowen had setup silentlambs.org when the circuit overseer talked privately to the elders he said several things about Bill, whom he said he knew.
On March 24, 2013 our ex-JW meetup groups (West Phoenix and Chandler) have organized a “Shun Run”. We did this last year too and 9 came out for the walk/run. Prior to this event I wrote to one specific individual at HQs, using the code from his letter to me (SDB:SSY). He doesn’t write back, but I too hope our concerns about shunning don’t fall on deaf ears. But even if they do, I still hope our Shun Run is of help.
Cheers,
-Randy
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Steve says:
June 23, 2013 at 2:02 pm
I was curious, you are always pretty vocal about whats new. Did I miss a post as to why you are no longer afilated with AAWA?
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Cedars says:
June 23, 2013 at 2:08 pm
Hi Steve. I would prefer not go into the exact reasons why I am no longer with AAWA, but you should know that I still support AAWA and hope it is successful in its objectives with or without me. It didn’t seem necessary to write an article about it on this website because I don’t consider it to be that big of a deal for my readers. I would rather continue to focus on what’s going on with Watchtower. I hope you understand. :)
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Steve says:
June 24, 2013 at 10:27 am
Thanks for the reply. Of course I respect your wishes. But you will forgive me for suggesting that is a little hypocritical. Especially since aawa – while they accuse the watchtower for being a cult because of amoung other things information control – have encountered a number of issues, the facebook fiasco to one side – the racist comments in their (now mysteriously disapeared) newsletter. Their firstly insulting any posters that disagree with them, and then deleting and ip blocking anyone that posts something negative. (this i experienced first hand). As a respected commentator I had hoped you could shed some light, rather than allow another organisation to sweep its mistakes and errors under the carpet.
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Cedars says:
June 24, 2013 at 11:32 am
Hi Steve. I’m sorry you think I am a hypocrite simply because I won’t dish the dirt on a fledgling organization which, though imperfect, shares my aims and aspirations. If you really need me to point out the difference between AAWA and an organization that controls the lives of millions under the pretense that it is under God’s guidance, then you are more dependent on my reasoning ability than you perhaps should be. In any case, I respect your opinion and I am glad that you can respect mine. Cedars
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zahid says:
July 20, 2013 at 12:21 am
I want you guys to join
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Arno says:
July 21, 2013 at 12:06 pm
I personally appreciates all the energy you are putting into this website, Cedars – in particular the 2013 survey. I would love to participate in this survey, but, for the time being, elects to wait and see if there will be an amended survey in the months to come, wherein the above suggestions by various participants/commenters have been included.
I’m very glad to have chanced upon this website tonight whilst doing some “research” (googling) the topic “Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses”. A fantastic and laudable task you’ve taken upon yourself…and a great site indeed.
Count me in :)
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KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
July 21, 2013 at 6:27 pm
“forgive me for suggesting that is a little hypocritical”
“but you should know that I still support AAWA” ~ Well, would some feel that way because I decline to actively join an openly opposing organization to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and yet strive to be amiable and cooperative with it? I sometimes get that sense…
I see it as practical and neighborly as well as trying to utilize what tools are available to me…
I have assessed and reassessed my circumstance and I am quite comfortable with my position…
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Anonymous says:
August 8, 2013 at 7:40 am
I’m at a point in my life where I shun all organizations. I am thankful for people like Cedars willing to expose the inconsistencies within organized religion. However unfortunately groups of people once they band together often go rogue and deviate highly off course. I have found that a journey to enlightenment is often best done alone.
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leo says:
August 25, 2013 at 8:58 pm
after studying the the Bible cover to cover with JWs for 10 years and then leaving i got my degree in Religious Studies.Pulling major doctrines from books like the Revelation is troublesome…many doctrines are Catholic holdovers.my question is , If Jesus prayed all night and chose the 12…and one was a thief….WHERE ARE ALL THE UNACCOUNTED BILLIONS ?
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KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 9:49 pm
leo said:
On August 25, 2013 at 8:58 pm
“after studying the the Bible cover to cover with JWs for 10 years and then leaving i got my degree in Religious Studies.Pulling major doctrines from books like the Revelation is troublesome…many doctrines are Catholic holdovers.my question is , If Jesus prayed all night and chose the 12…and one was a thief….WHERE ARE ALL THE UNACCOUNTED BILLIONS ?”
I’ve asked this for a good long time and even inquired of US Federal agencies but I appear to have always been a voice in the wind. I have always had a profound concern about the removal of assets to offshore locales and conversion or any number of hiding of assets scenarios to avoid having to pay these massive damage claims that were foreseen when the Society paid out the near half Billion back in the mid 90’s and after that in the early 00’s and who knows what else? They apparently can avoid paying tax on the earned income from the Hedge Funds in the US at least but do they report the money at all? What other taxable “for profit” income is generated under tax free 401 (C)(3) status? The decisions were made and casually amended to empower themselves in very loose, general and abstract terms in the annual meetings of 1999-2003:
http://dc159.4shared.com/doc/gf-AoDRf/preview.html
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-witness/TF2VKBBHKQBG5AC5C
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LMC says:
September 20, 2013 at 10:21 am
OK I am having difficulty with this point. JW’s say that the UN will turn on “false religion” however with recent events in Egypt (uprisings ousted president ect) it has been reported on news sources that Christians are being killed in Egypt and other countries. Also in history we see that Christians have at some point been killed, persecuted ect over the centuries. My question is how can Jehovah “put it into the hearts of the UN (political, military, wild beast whatever-has this changed over the years?)” to turn on “false religion” when it is already happening and has happened throughout history? Any thoughts?
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former sister says:
October 8, 2013 at 6:46 pm
I am curious as to the J.W. Selling all their property in New York and moving to a more secluded area?
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Roger M. Woodbury says:
October 13, 2013 at 7:07 pm
My wife is a JW recently returned after a lengthy absence from active participation. I have been attending meetings with her, and for seven months studied the Bible with a JW elder from the local Kingdom Hall. I ceased studying when it became apparent that the “study” was less about the Bible than about selling me on the idea of becoming a JW which was never an option. I continue studying not only the Bible, but the organization itself and have learned quite a bit about the organization that is disquieting to me.
I find the secrecy of the organization and the way it operates to be disturbing. It seems to me that if the faith of the organizational leadership was as strong as it should be, then there should be no fear of dissent within the congregations.
Most discouraging of all is the apparent prevalence of child sexual abuse and pedophilia that exists within the congregations and the fact that the organization seems to be unable or unwilling to do much about it. There is supposedly a listing held in secret in the organization’s headquarters of a pedophiles and sexual abusers that numbers in excess of 24,000. If the statistics hold for this organization that psychologists and sociologists maintain for the general population, this number is not more than 5% of the actual number within the organization itself. In an organization of seven million or so world wide, this would make the percentage of pedophile/child sexual abusers to be considerably higher than the general population. While it is true that the illness is not discussed at all directly in the Bible, the Society’s unwillingness to deal effectively with the problem lays itself open to precisely the kinds of persecutions that it predicts will roll down hill on top of it during the tribulation. I do not believe that “self-inflicted” tribulations are scriptural.
As far as the JW’s selling off property in Brooklin is concerned, I suspect one great motivating factor for relocation and real estate sales is the award and settlement figures for civil litigation involving child sexual abuse which currently is passing $50 million. While some of the jury awards may well be overturned on appeal, the number of settlements out of court are substantial and involve substantial amounts of money. Could the awards and exposures be sufficient to financially destabilize the organization? Who knows, but certainly if the organization loses $50 million or more, its financial condition will be severely impacted and attractive and valuable real estate in Brooklin would seem to have less value to them.
It seems likely that if the Jehovah’s Witnesses were to modernize their operational structure just a bit and allow women to participate in the operation of the organization on the same basis as men, and if in fact there were four women on the governing body, it seems likely that the incidence of child sexual abuse and pedophilia would disappear from the congregation entirely.
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Christian Sparlock Freedom says:
October 18, 2013 at 11:19 am
Great article. Your efforts are appreciated .
Great cartoon also .
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Free Thinker/Non-JW says:
October 19, 2013 at 7:05 pm
Hi Cedars,
As an outsider looking in, I find the watchtower phenomenon and their followers fascinating.
For many years, I have worked in close proximity to several jw’s, and they have always been polite, and non-proselytizing at the work-place. However, there has always been a “separatist” underlying current among them, in addition to the secretive behavior regarding their lives outside of work. This, among other things, has led my curiosity to try to learn more about them.
Your website is replete with useful information, and I plan to use it as one of many research tools.
Thanks for the time and effort you put into educating others, regarding the history and the doctrines, of this very interesting segment of human culture.
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JB says:
October 24, 2013 at 5:12 pm
Hello, I discovered this site a short while ago,
I must say I’m totally impressed by the depth of knowledge of both the moderators and many commentors, among whom, probably many spent long years within the
organization. I appreciate the well-documented and open minded approach, although I must say that at times, some blog entries and comments make me feel like they’re made just for the sake of “keeping the momentum” critisizing, while I truly believe there are quite a few troublesome
topics very rightly critisized here already.
I myself have mixed feelings about the organization, and refrain from reaching to conclusions for many reasons. Still, I think, if it’s not for its Governing Body,an organization with its members who honestly search for truth, ready to put their own lives in line for what they believe as truth, deserves respect … I saw all the negative sides mentioned here and elsewhere within the organization, but I have also seen wonderful, honest, open minded, intelligent people. They are the reason for me not to dismiss it so easily …
I intend to hang around in the most constructive manner as possible, I can see that I’m by no means more clever and knowledgeable than anyone here, I guess I’ll question everything, both the organization and any critisism against it, in case I can’t find a solid basis for those … I think the reason many people became a JW (and then left) was finding and living the truth. I think this aim remains as the sole objective, above anything, including our ego’s. At least, I’d like this to be this way for myself.
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kb2013 says:
December 28, 2013 at 6:45 pm
Thank you for creating this informative website.
I was brought up as a JW and started taking it seriously for last 10 years. However, there were times where I had witnessed things that just didn’t seem right. (Gossiping, Favouritism, Hypocrisy etc. ) I discussed my feelings with a few people. The feedback that I got was along the lines of, “Just ignore it”, “Pray about it”, “We need to continue putting up with one another”.
The final straw was the distribution of the new Bibles. In the UK, the privileged few (elders, their wives, pioneers, brothers and sisters who have been baptised members for over 30 years) were invited to the annual meeting and given a new bible. The rest of the rank and file members had to wait. (We finally got ours a couple of weeks ago).
At the next meeting, a pioneer brother jokingly said, “The new bibles are only for…” then he stopped in mid-sentence, laughed and then said, “no I can’t say that, I’m only joking!” However, it didn’t seem like a joke. There was a sense of “them and us”. The new bibles were used in the meetings straight away, even though the majority of the members did not have a new bible. It would’ve probably made a bit more sense to release the new bibles at the district conventions, so that everyone received a copy at the same time.
Then I visited this website and read about the failed prophecies (e.g. 1975), the racist history of the WTBTS, mind control techniques etc. My eyes have been opened ever since.
I am not angry but more disappointed about the time I have invested in this organisation. However, this experience has helped me to gain an understanding of how organisations employ mind control techniques and how best not to get involved. I am working on my fade out of this organisation.
Thank you Cedars and others for the hardwork you all have put into creating this website. I hope that more current JWs will visit this website and start thinking for themselves.
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Julia says:
January 8, 2014 at 11:13 pm
Hi Cedar
I’m from Poland and I’m a former Jehovah’s witness. We have website about JW in our country too. We discuss there on the belives of JWs.
Many of us have parents in this religion. Therefore, I understand how you feel.
I wish you luck, many of the articles on your website and the agreement of the parents.
I greet.
Julia
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Ian says:
January 14, 2014 at 7:15 pm
On one hand, the property in Dumbo is an unnecessary expense when it comes down to it, and I’m surprised they held onto it for this long. On the other hand, the price tag was a little low as well as the sale happening relatively quickly coinciding with the lawsuits the recent lawsuits does leave question. Just an observation.
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Duds says:
January 21, 2014 at 10:32 pm
Hi Cedar,
I’m one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I don’t associate with the WTS. They can’t dis-fellowship me since I was never baptized into that organization. I enjoyed reading your experience. Also I like the articles on your site.
regards
Duds
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Eddie says:
January 22, 2014 at 2:25 am
Hi, Cedar
Your site is very well put together and I share your understanding. I’m an agnostic, I don’t agree with all written in the Bible. 2000 years went by with no divine intervention on human affairs, suddenly about 130 years ago a lunatic gets a heavenly call to announce a false date 1914?
For sure the GB is not “spirit directed” and the WT is just another religious cult, one of many that abound in Christendom. I was disfellowshipped once, suffered the shunning process, reinstated then silently faded away.
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Brendan Tannam says:
January 22, 2014 at 6:29 pm
I guess it is becoming clear that AAWA is just another egotistical organisation modelled on the Watchtower.
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Appreciative says:
February 9, 2014 at 2:58 pm
Hi Cedars.
My husband devoted a good decade of his life–almost every free minute–to researching Watchtower and writing long articles about his findings, to debating with JW apologists, etc. Back then (from the early 90s to mid-2000s), there were only a handful of people doing what you’re doing. He felt compelled to do the work. But now he no longer has to because of the tremendous efforts you and others are making. Your site is fabulous. I left back in the early 80s, when there was practically no information like this available. What a difference now for people who have doubts and who want to leave. The resources available to them are staggering. I think your site is among the very best. Thank you for your continued hard work so that people like my husband can turn their attention to other matters.
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Holy Conolli says:
March 5, 2014 at 10:18 am
To Duds
You are right they cannot DF you but they can Call you “bad association” and basically do the same thing. They now can even classify non-witnesses that are associated or affiliated with the WT as “approved publishers” or “disapproved publishers” They always come up with another way to gain more control over everyone. I remember some years back when I was newly baptized an Elder of that time told my wife that we should not be hanging around my “WORLDLY” parents to much bc they had made it clear by their actions that they were “enemies Of the Kingdom” by not becoming KW’s and not attending the meetings? I was very upset at the time bc they were basically telling me not to hang around my NON JW family. If that isn’t total control over your life and cult like I don’t know what is!
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Duds says:
March 5, 2014 at 7:31 pm
Hi Holy Conolli,
Thanks for your comments,Its sad the WTS has got so far out of touch with decency. When is your family got to be looked on as bad association? I can understand if the family were very vile, however, that’s not usually the case with most worldly families. I don’t have any family relatives living close by, but when I meet with them,it is still great to associate with them even though they don’t share what I believe.In fact it often leads to some interesting discussions. The WTS has to look at it policies and reconsider their teachings. Many of the teachings are boarding on being Pharisaical, and need adjusting or eliminating all together to show a more loving approach, to those outside their organization, and to their families inside, who have been unjustly separated from their families due to contrary understanding of WTS material.
may you continue to have peace
Duds
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Holy Conolli says:
March 6, 2014 at 12:09 am
Hi Duds
In my experience let’s say that a family may be studying in the congregation and they have some kids that are teenagers etc. and just doing normal teenage stuff like playing sports, dancing, gong to movies, maybe hanging out late sometimes etc In a mixed company of girls and boys. If after a while they do not start going door-door or if they are not “progressing” in the JW cong it wouldn’t be long before they starting pressuring them to go out in service, stop hanging out, no dancing, little if any sports playing etc. If they did not tow the WT line they would become “bad associations” and they could be “marked” in the congregation which basically means they are not to be associated with except on a very limited level and that is ONLY if they are going to meetings and doing the JW thing. I know many who that happened to. The thing is the JW’s do not give their youth anything to do except for going door-door and maybe some kid of Watchtower farm work. They take away everything that normal teenagers do like sports, dancing, music, College, groups Clubs, party’s, and they do not replace it with anything. Young people need an out let and going door-door just doesn’t cut it! I mean at least the Mormons have sports, clubs, chaperoned dances, school activities, preparing them for college, Many kinds of activities to occupy young folks with clean things to do. But the JW’s have nothing to offer.
They re the religion of NO FUN! Then if anyone does have fun they wan to stop it. Several years ago I used to organize Friday night Softball games under the lights at a baseball field in town. So many young kids came out to play and have fun and after we would go have Pizza etc until maybe 11-12 midnight. After several months of this on a regular basis the JW Elders and the CO stepped in to stop it bc they said the young people were to tired to go out in Field service on Saturday morning and it ws taking away from their “spirituality”? So they made a big thing about it and basically squashed it. They even had the nerve to give a talk from the platform on “needs” of the congregation and said we were getting to Competitive and we should play softball without keeping score? What kind of CRAZY mind is that? So they stopped it but NEVER offered an alternative except go OUT IN FOEDL Service!
No wonder so many young people are leaving that religion. JW’s the Religion of No fun!
Do you currently consider yourself a JW dud? Do you go door-door still?
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Duds says:
March 6, 2014 at 2:01 am
Hi Holy Conolli
I agree with you, it’s disappointing to say the least that WTS views on association and recreational activities are really appalling.Most of the young ones in the congregation are really there because of their parents,and most will only stay in the congregation because they don’t want to be shunned by their family.If that treat didn’t exist I’d imagine many would leave tomorrow. Why not let them enjoy themselves while their young, and when they get to that time in their life they want to change, it will be for all the right reasons, and not because their forced to do so.
Holy, I still believe Jehovah to be the true God and hence for that reason I am one of Jehovah’s witnesses. I don’t believe, however, the WTS and the GB are Jehovah’s only God’s representatives. Today, they have an elevated view of themselves and are failing their members, and the people of the world. With their unhealthy view of themselves, they have for example continued to tell lies, regarding the date of 607B.C.E. for the destruction of Jerusalem.They have known at least since 1978 that 587 B.C.E. is the correct date for Jerusalem’s destruction.Their pride is stopping them from being humble and admitting their error. In the mean time they continue to mislead,misquote scholars,lie,and deceive to backup their flawed theology. Shortly, they will have to face up to that fact, they will probably reveal it as new light and some will be fooled into believing it.
I still believe many of the other truths that they teach. However they are not the owner of those truths, Jesus and his Father are,and beside other religions also teach them.
My faith in Jesus and Jehovah has strengthen, since I began to study for my self. When something is difficult, I refer to how others (even the wts) understand but only then to compare and check.
May you have peace
Duds
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Duds says:
March 6, 2014 at 2:14 am
Hi Holy Conolli
I wrote an earlier post explaining where I stood with my beliefs but I think it may have gone astray in cyber-land. Hope you get it. It may be going thru quarantine.
Cheers Duds
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Holy Conolli says:
March 6, 2014 at 6:37 am
Dud
I missed your previous comment but I found it afte some looking. Sorry I missed it earlier. Thanks for sharing.
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Holy Conolli says:
March 6, 2014 at 2:23 pm
I admire you for hanging in there despite the fact that you recognize many of the things you mention. I also found out about 587 BCE as being the correct year on my own. Since that is correct it throws their number 1 teaching of 1914 and all the things associated with it out the door! So that means Jesus was not crowned King in that year. It means he did not “return” that year, it means the cleansing of the spiritual temple did not occur in 1918-1919 etc,it means Satan was not thrown down to the earth, it means the last days did not start in that year etc. My wife is still an active JW and I am not sure what she thinks with all these radical changes and attitude of GoV Body etc I think she is just numb to it and goes along with whatever they say. I also Believe in Jehovah and in Jesus Christ but not anymore through an organization or a Church. Especially the WT as the one and ONLY rep on earth! The facts just don’t add up. They have never, ever been correct on one thing that they predicted? Their record on prophecy is dismal at best. I am impressed that you can still attend meetings in view of what you express? If you can and it makes you feel right more power to you and I respect that and I am sure you have your reasons for doing it. For me I just could not advocate it any longer. Sure I had friends in the Cong that I miss but I have made other friends as well. I think anyone that was a serious JW like you and myself for a number of years still carry’s the effects of being a JW for long time especially if you have family still in it.
I have weighed the evidence and it just doesn’t add up what they teach anymore. I talk with a JW friend in Europe and he is afraid to express himself to much but the whole 1914 thing he doesn’t believe anymore but is afraid of being df’d by telling others so he just kind of is fading away. I could not in my heart preach anymore bc I knew it was a continual changing religious philosophy that is at BEST inconsistent and contradicts teachings of just a few years ago. I think the Gov body is worried and they really not sure of what to do anymore? As mentioned I still believe in Jehovah and Christ but our salvation is not dependent on being a JW or hours in FS or association with the WT.
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Duds says:
March 6, 2014 at 4:37 pm
Hi Holy Conolli
I see my lost post turned up this morning, moderator must have approved.
No, I don’t go to their meeting I haven’t gone for years, my wife and son have been d/f and I guess they would treat me the same even though I’ve never been d/f. They can d/f you from an organization but not from God, and because I was baptized before they bought in, the being baptized into an org. question, I believe they can’t d/f me. I made a dedication to serve Jehovah and Jesus not an org.
I cannot see Jehovah or Jesus backing any of the dates presented by society they have been wrong on every one of them including 1914. When I said I still believe many of the truths, I meant the basic for example, the soul,hell not being a fiery torment, Jehovah and Jesus being separate persons but the rest, apart from most of the morals, I don’t agree with.
You have got it right, our salvation is not depended on hour in f/s or being a member of the WTS. but in recognizing Jesus as our Savior. I couldn’t go preaching d-d knowing that the society is completely wrong about 607 and 1914, and many other things as well, it would be hypocritical.
They claim to adhere to strick Bible chronology, but they don’t, and even change the Bible to suit their own theology.
For example Dan 2:1 say ‘in the second year of the kingship of Nebuchadnezzar…dreamed dreams”
Now the Bible chronology says “in the second year of the kingship” but because this dosn’t fit with their theological assumption, that Daniel could not have been in Babylon in King Nebs. second year, change this to mean the second year after Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E. A complete change of Bible Chronology. Check WT2007 w07 9/1 p.17-20 par.10 also si pp 138-142. Jehovah and Jesus got it wrong according to WTS and GB.(so much for their accurate Bible chronology when quoting 607 dating).
Daniel was in Babylon in the second year of K/Nebs. kingship, the Bible says so, why should we disbelieve it. If the society were to get their understanding right about the destruction of Jerusalem and the chronology surrounding that time, there be no valid reason for changing it. The main reason for not wanting to do that, is that it destroys their 1914 doctrine. Because Jehovah gives Jerusalem and Judah into the hands of the Babylonian Empire before the royal line of David is over thrown. Dan2:36-39 and Jer.27:4-7. therefore, the so called 70 years must apply when Babylon became a world Empire or when Jehovah chose K/Neb to be his servant, and not after Jerusalem’s destruction.
How does your wife feel about your new understandings?
Its hard to break old habits, it took me a while to change even though I could see obvious things that were wrong, however, I was trained to turn a blind eye and trust in the org. I just faded away until my interest was revitalize by reading the book “The Gentile Times Reconsidered” by Carl Olof Jonsson now an ex witness, great book though he has a PDF of it on his site. It proves beyond the shadow of doubt that 587 B.C.E. is when Jerusalem destroyed.
May peace go with you
Duds
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Duds says:
March 6, 2014 at 5:58 pm
Hi Holy Conolli
I think another one of my post has gone the long way round.
Have to check tomorrow if it turns up.
Cheers in the meantime
Duds
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JB says:
March 7, 2014 at 1:57 am
Hi Duds,
What you wrote here is pretty much my stand too. I was disfellowshipped long ago and when I wanted to find my “spiritual way” back lately, I reconsidered the religion I was born in, but soon I saw all these discrepencies and problems with it, and it brought some bitter memories back.
I’m much better outside and like you mentioned, although I still have beliefs and some key points are the same, studying on my own with an open mind seems much more beneficial and there is definitely a very health freedom about it.
Reply
JB says:
March 7, 2014 at 1:58 am
sorry I meant “healthy freedom about it”.
Reply
Duds says:
March 7, 2014 at 4:01 am
Hi Holy Conolli
It has been a real pleasure sharing these few thoughts with you.Its been a real comfort for me knowing that others, like yourself, feel the same way as I do.
Were you bought up as a witness or was it another org. that you went back to find your spiritual way?
I’m also glad your doing your own reading its much more meaningful, your not tided down to some watchtower influence.
Yeah and I like that healthy freedom too!
Cheers and peace
Dude
Reply
Excelsior says:
March 7, 2014 at 4:32 am
Duds and Holy Conolli,
Well done, folks! I would always advise anyone who still believes to read the Bible only. If you need some further information, try seeking sources that are not tied to any faith in particular.
There has been a scramble to claim Jesus of Nazareth for 2000 odd years. Everyone has an opinion, and some of those people are convinced that only they have the truth.
I still retain a great deal of respect for Jesus’ core message. I try to apply some Christian principles in my life.
His message of mercy and compassion is timeless, and we all can benefit from contemplating his teachings.
Have you chaps looked at JW Struggle? There is a splendid man called Eric on that site that shares your sincere belief in God and his Son. He has written some very fine articles that I have enjoyed reading. He is a good man. I recommend checking out his site, that he shares with some other fine folks. I think they will help to comfort you.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
March 7, 2014 at 4:42 am
Hi Duds
Thanks for sharing. I was not raised a JW. I was like 10 years old when I started studying. There was a lot of talk and scare tactics about 1975 at the time and how we need to get baptized and quit school and college and just preach etc. So I got baptized and next year got married and had 3 kids. Lot’s of struggles over the years , some good and some bad but tried my very best to be a great example of a Christian and do everything I could to support the JW’s etc. Always though in the back of my mind there were things that just never seemed right on teachings and policy they promoted and pushed. Also always seemed like the WT org was not very forgiving or very loving towards the Rank and file although in word they would say they were? Always ready to dish out punishment and policy but never ready to forgive. They told the publishers to forgive one another and to be open minded but they were not that way themselves. The love that they preached wasn’t in reality there? I remember when I was like 22 years old I was preaching in a very expensive educated neighborhood near a prominent University and I expressed my sincere doubts about how Jesus could have returned in 1914 “invisibly” despite scriptures that say the opposite and how the tribes of the earth were not Beating themselves in grief at that event as the Bible says they would do? I was sincere and just wanted answers? I wasn’t challenging anyone at that time.
They always saw any questions as a challenge to their authority? It should not be like that.
So some of the JW’s were very disturbed at my thoughts and reasoning and told me to ask the CO at that time. They refused to discuss it. It was like they buried their head in the sand. Those thoughts lingered with me for years on that and many other teachings. Like Most good JW’s I buried it and went about being a good publisher and an elder for nearly 13 years. Supported the WT in every way possible. I remember in the 1990’s I just cold not do it anymore. The information and instructions coming from the Gov body just kept changing from one year to the next. Scriptural understanding was flip flopping all over the place, the 1914 changes in teaching was what I was saying 33 years earlier. The excuses they were making for being wrong all those years were intolerable to me to sit and accept anymore. Their was no humility on their part only telling everyone to listen, Obey and don’t question us bc we are God’s representatives. Plus I had seen SO MUCH OVER the years that I just had to remove myself from a unhealthy mental and spiritual situation the best I could without causing to much controversy in my family. My kids are grown now and sometimes I wonder what life would have been if I had raised them A “normal” life? You never know where life takes you so I am not full of regrets in that sense and my kids turned out pretty good and only 1 considers themselves a JW now but they reached those conclusions on their own. The Wife is still active and will not discuss another point of view but that is fine. She knows where I stand and she knows what I am saying is truthful but her entire life and social life is tied to the WT Org. A man has to live with himself before he can live with others.
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
March 7, 2014 at 4:48 am
Duds and excelsior
Sorry guys…I made a Mistake about my age! I typed in the wrong number and did not double ck! I typed in that was 10 years Old when I started studying. I typed in 10 years old and then said I got married the next year!! Lol I meant to type in I was 19 when I started studying and 20 when I got married. Lol
Reply
Duds says:
March 7, 2014 at 5:29 am
Hi JB
You have the same initials as my sons. Yes both sons. Thanks for your comments.I thought I was talking to Holy Conolli when I was reading your comments and I may have replied to you as such. Sorry to you both. But my comments were sincere I appreciate you both.
Cheers and peace
Duds
Reply
Duds says:
March 7, 2014 at 5:42 am
Hi Holy Conolli
I really didn’t think you were 10 years old and than married at 11, I took that as the time your family started to study, and after a time of being pressured you got baptized than got married. Amazing, what one can read into something, that’s not there. Being 10 I automatically thought you were saying your family started studying.
Thanks again for sharing
Duds
Reply
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Welcome to JWsurvey.org, the online voice for Jehovah’s Witnesses
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JWsurvey.org is the proud home of the 2014 Global Survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you are, or ever have been, a Jehovah’s Witness – please take this survey! Even if you were never actually baptized or have been away from the Witnesses for many years, we encourage you to have you say and share your opinions regarding the Watch Tower Society, and its leaders the Governing Body.
If you are a current or former Witness, you will know only too well that doubts are not permitted among the brothers, and the Governing Body expects and demands your unquestioned loyalty. If there is any teaching you are uncertain of, you must “wait on Jehovah,” which effectively means burying your doubts and pretending they never existed. Over time, these suppressed doubts accumulate until you are nothing more than a robot, going through the motions and doing what is expected of you – but never truly believing it 100%.
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143 Responses to Welcome
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Duds says:
March 7, 2014 at 6:12 am
Hi Excelsior
Thanks for you kind thoughts, I think the more we read the Bible on our own, the more we seem drawn to each other. Pondering Jesus ways and thoughts seems to makes us more conscious of our own weakness and faults, that we want to help others know of his redeeming qualities.
Yeah, I have checked out the JW Struggle site and your right, there are many good articles, been written in a non condemning way which helps remove that dissent ex-witness may feel for being mistreated by the WTS.
May you continue to have peace
Duds
Reply
JB says:
March 7, 2014 at 10:09 am
Thank you so much Duds, it’s great to see there are like minded folks.
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
March 7, 2014 at 3:47 pm
I have heard about his book and he is not the only scholar that brings it out. I think the WT must know that 607 BCE is not accurate but they keep trying to keep the Cong together. If and when they change that they will have a lot of explain to do. But if you are wrong you are wrong so why not admit it and just deal with it.
I think it would throw so may JW’s into mental distress they are afraid to do it. Also, if they are so wrong on this it begs the question that how many more of their teachings are they wrong with? Since this is their main teaching of all their prophetic sayings and so much is tied to this teaching it would change their entire approach to everything they have ever stood for.It could even be their downfall and cause them to dissolve as a religion? I am not saying it would but it very well could happen.
Reply
cheryl massey says:
March 10, 2014 at 11:04 am
ARE YOU SINGLE? LOL
Reply
cheryl massey says:
March 10, 2014 at 11:32 am
THAT WAS TO CEDARS.LOL THANK YOU FOR THE WORK YOU DO!!! YOUR VERY COURAGIOUS! I BELIEVE MY VIEWS ARE CHANGING FOR GOOD THIS TIME AND IT SCARES THE YOU KNOW WHAT OUT OF ME AND I CATCH MYSELF LIVING IN FEAR FOR A MOMENT THEN I REMEMBER THAT THEY CAN ONLY KILL MY SPIRIT IF I ALLOW THEM TOO! BRAVO!
Reply
Duds says:
March 11, 2014 at 6:16 am
Hi Holy Conolli
Yeah,I’m looking forward to the day they admit, they were wrong about 607B.C.E. That will mean all the dates’ they ever spoke about, have proved false. Its possible, that a big split might come among them. If they admit it, it won’t be because it was the light getting brighter. Many,brothers and others have for years, exposed this error. Many, unjustly d/f for it.
Will they be humble enough to honestly, confess this and apologize to all? I’m not sure they could, when you look at all the changes that will have to take place. Reinstating all wrongly d/f.brothers and sisters. Change every book explaining 607/1914/1919. introduce new doctrines to replace the 1919 cleansing and inspection,and many many more as well. That’s a lot of explaining to do ,and who is going to believe them?
That is going to take a lot of faith!
Keep going my brother don’t let this day, stop you from looking to the day, Jesus cleans up all this mess.
peace and love Duds
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
March 11, 2014 at 12:12 pm
Thnks Duds. I doubt very much that if they do admit it is an erroneous date that they will go back and change everything or admit BIG TIME failure. It is not something they do. However, things can change as we all know and it is possible. If they do change it and admit they were wrong then what would that do to the organization as a whole? What would the publishers do? Who would stay and who would leave and it would create an entirely different religious doctrine? It might be like even some today who still hold to Russell’s teachings? I see them on TV from time -time or read something about them? They still believe Russell was the F&D slave even after all these years? also, it could be like when Rutherford took over. It caused a Big Split 50/50 or more left the WT of those days?
does it really matter anymore since they are wrong?
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
March 12, 2014 at 3:05 am
If they ever do admit these wrong teachings then will they still be JW’s or will they merge with another theological idea or religion? In reality they are not much different from the former “World Wide Church of God” run by the late Herbert Armstrong. When he died there was a Big Split as some wanted to stay w his teachings and others abandoned his teachings and went with traditional Christianity. They split into so MANY different sects and groups that they are not even recognizable anymore. Some kept the same name of the church as before but the teachings are completely different. They even came out and apologized for “persecuting” other Christian denominations for decade. Herbert Armstrong was very similar to the WT Gov Body in stating that all other Churches and teachings were false and they would be destroyed at the 2nd coming/Armageddon which was always imminent. He and the WT taught similar teachings and doctrines although he was a Sabbatarian and kept the Mosaic dietary law. The point is he was very controlling. They shunned and DF’d people.If anyone left the Church the family could not speak with them. He had total control over the Church.It was a cults.So if the JW’s come out with major doctrine l changes it may very well dissolve what we currently have known as Jehovah’s Witnesses over the last 60+ years.
Reply
Duds says:
March 12, 2014 at 4:24 am
Hi Holy Conolli
Glad to hear from you again, I studied with the Worldwide Church of God before I became a witness. Very familiar doctrines, though their belief that God was recreating Himself in saving mankind was kind of weird. I could never accept that. It wasn’t long after that I began studying with the witnesses to convert them, lols, ended up being one, but now divorced from the WTS. That was around the time when Garner Ted Armstrong got sprung cheating on his wife. Now you hardly hear of them, Garner Ted has a TV program and someone is carrying on with Herberts teachings. I think there are some other brake away groups as well.
There is also many break-a ways from the wts around the globe, all with some message of truth. But when the wts finally comes clean, it will most likely be too late to save face. I think there is going to be one big mess up.There will be few, if none at all, who will put trust in them again.May they all seek a good relational-ship with their Savior Jesus Christ and exercise faith in Him as the Way the Truth, and the Life.
Peace to you my friend,
Duds
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
March 12, 2014 at 10:04 am
That is interesting that you studied with the WWC of God? I have only know a few of those folks over the years.
In your opinion were they more of a cult and more Controlling than the WT is?
As a child growing up my Mother who was not a JW nor was I raised one always said to me, ” If you are wrong”..you are wrong, just admit it and correct it and move on. That thought always stuck with me in my JW years as a young man and as a older adult. It always bothered me that the WT WOULD NEVER admit their errors or wrong policies. Although they were HELL BENT on the publishers to repent or immediately get DF’d they would never do it for themselves. As time went on it became more clear that they were more concerned about “SAVING FACE” than correcting or admitting their error. also they were so quick to condemn Christendom or any religion that differed from them and even calling others false prophets who made erroneous predictions on the end of the World etc. but in their case it was always” Oh Some were Over anxious” or at times bc we desired the fulfillment of God’s promises some may have Overreacted? It was never them or never WE JUST ARE WRONG it was always the blame game to others.Even the LATE HAROLD CAMPING who made a BIG STIR for his May 23rd 2011 “JUDGEMENT DAY” prophecy all over the world thru Billboards, radio programs, preachers on the street at least came out after nothing happened and apologized? He was very DOGMATIC that he was right and would not be wrong and used some weird numerology that he thought was some bible code to come up with dates etc for the 2nd coming of Christ..yet he admitted his error on prophecy and apologized. The WT has never ever done that? Those who live in Glass houses should not throw Rocks?
Reply
Duds says:
March 12, 2014 at 8:11 pm
Hi Holy Conolli
Herbert W. Armstrong was a very authoritative, powerful speaker. He was very persuasive he had great ability to use the Bible to fit his theology. I was very easily influenced in those days, every thing he spoke about seem to be backed up by the Bible, that impressed me, and I fell for his teachings. Many of the doctrines were familiar to the WTS which made it pretty easy for me to become a witness. The turning point in rejecting the WWCoG was Ps110.1-2. Their teaching that God was recreating Himself didn’t go well with this scripture. It was like Jehovah saying to Jehovah sit at My own right hand, which to me was absurd. How could Jehovah say such a thing? It made more sense that he was talking to Jesus who later became David’s Lord and whom Jehovah exalted and made Him Lord and King after His resurrection 33CE. From that time on I dedicated my life to serve Jehovah and His appointed King Jesus Christ. I still am dedicated to them. I was never baptized into an organization. The WTS may like to dis-fellowship me, but they haven’t, and it wont matter if they do in my absence. I will always be known as one of Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses they can’t take that away from me. They have no inherent claim to the name, its there for all Christians. Their non scriptural doctrine to shun others is null and void to all, who still believe Jesus is God’s son, and is now the ruling as King.
Have Peace
Duds
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
March 12, 2014 at 9:25 pm
Duds
You make some interesting points I must say. I agree with the fact that we are not baptized into an Organization.
That is not what Christianity is about at all. We all must have FREDDOM IN CHRIST not an Organization.Sometimes when I really think about t and all the disruption that these religions have caused among honest hearted ones I conclude that belonging to almost any religion and claiming that Doctrine is just nonsense.
The bible never talked about that at all. Remember Paul was disputing that very thing when he said we are not from Paul or Cephas but we are one in Christ? So the same thing here…we can not be baptized into an organization or be a Catholic or a Baptist or the WWCOG or JW’s? We are Christians if we believe. The Bible message is simple. Man has made it difficult.God created us and all the Universe. Jehovah is over everything. Man sinned and lost his way, Man needs a Savior, the Savior is the Lord Jesus Christ.Jesus is God’s gift to man. It is a free gift that we need to accept. If we do we will receive Eternal Life. Jesus will rule over mankind in his Kingdom.
Reply
Duds says:
March 12, 2014 at 10:55 pm
Hi holy Conolli
I’m with you,that’s exactly how I feel too.Freedom in Christ!
Love that scripture you quoted about Paul saying,” I belong to Cephas another to Paul” yes, we are all one in Christ, we all belong to Him. There is no organizational ownership. That’s not saying we can’t be organized, but it something we all do together, willingly and without compulsion, under the loving leadership of Christ.
have peace
Duds
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
March 12, 2014 at 11:43 pm
Duds
Also, when we are organized to do something Spiritual or to preach or whatever we still need to have freedom to make our own decisions based on a God Given mind and conscience.Christianity was not a dictator ship ruled by a few harsh men watching every move. BTW, I am going to San Diego tomorrow for some business and I have decided I am going to go by Beth Sarim where Rutherford built the house that he grant deeded over to King David and the other Prophets that he said would be resurrected before Armageddon? The WT does not like to talk about that and if they do they try to claim he was there for “health” reasons? Oh yes, with his Luxury mansion and luxury Cars back in 1929 the year of the great Depression? I am going to take some photos of it. At one time it was a 100 acre estate. Now homes are built around it. That was a pretty wacky Idea and Doctrine he taught among many others.
Reply
Duds says:
March 14, 2014 at 10:12 pm
Hi Holy Conolli
Yes, the Judge lived a life of luxury, while he had the poor preach his books and teachings from door to door. All under the guise Armageddon was about to happen. The society did a good job of covering it up.
According to them, and their latest teachings on the FDS, He is the one, Jehovah and Jesus must have chosen as his servant in 1919. He must have represented the small band of loyal Bible Students.
quote
“(They were pleased with a small band of loyal Bible Students who showed that their heart was with Jehovah and his Word)” wt13 pp12
They don’t say that outright. However there was no GB than, so who else, was there to fill the role of FDS? Only the judge. He came to power in 1916 after the death of Russell and continued for many years there after. He had to be that composite FDS all by himself until the GB was formed many years later. Very confusing! I guess they can live with that but I can’t.
How did the trip go? What was house like?
Cheers Duds
Reply
elderwannabe says:
March 24, 2014 at 3:28 pm
You are worse then what you say jws are. You say your site is religiously neutral? My guess is that you have a personal peeve against the witness and you want to dupe the easily persuaded too. There is nothing good about the witness? Were you at one time a jw? What do you have to offer?
Reply
Duds says:
March 24, 2014 at 6:25 pm
Hi Elderwannabe
I don’t know if your addressing it to me personally or to all on this site, or just to Cedars.
I assume from your handle you are a JW or XJW. I am still one of Jehovahs’ Christians Witnesses, but I don’t agree with the WTS.
My peeve is, that they promote themselves as an organisation of truth, but their prophesies, and many other teachings, show them to be otherwise. 607 B.C.E, 1914/1919 for example, and there teaching on the FDS and this generation. A quick look over the info on jwfacts will reveal that.
Many on this site have been hurt by the the WTS stance on shunning, and d/f for simply just holding a different view on some scriptures.
While I think its too late for WTS reform, I hope many others will see the errors of the WTS and escape its grip. This site as I see it, holds out as a haven where like minded gather to encourage and share their experiences.
By reading Cedars blogs and other notable links on this site I think you will see there is a lot to offer.
Have peace Duds
Reply
Duds says:
March 24, 2014 at 6:55 pm
Hi elderwannabe
I posted an earlier note but its disappeared.I don’t know if your addressing me or all on the site.
If its me then thanks for the the thought that, I maybe worse then the jws., I don’t intend to be.
Would you prefer that ‘the easily persuaded’ to remain duped or learn the truth?
I’d like them see the errors of WTS so they can escape its grips. Yes, I’m one of Jehovahs’ Witnesses who has been hurt by the lies and falsehoods that the WTS teach.
And Id like to help others learn those truths which expose the WTS so they can be free of manipulation.
May you have peace
Duds
Reply
Anne says:
July 2, 2014 at 5:31 am
Thank you. One year ago I came to live with my lovely partner. We have 8 grandchildren between us and life is good. His ex wife and 2 daughters are staunch Jehovahs witnesses. A son in law is an elder. After 6 months of tolerating their appalling and shocking behavior I realised that my partner was terrified that he would never see his grandchildren again as I had confronted them about their bizarre beliefs. I feel so sorry for him. He adores his family. Now they speak to him but I am shunned even though I teach one of their children at the local school! I am so grateful for aawa. I read the site news and comments every day and that gives me strength. You are wonderful people. Thanks for being there.
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Art Fern says:
July 9, 2014 at 10:57 pm
Duds, you can see the similarities clearly with the Worldwide Church of God, SDA, and the Witnesses. Shunning was big in the WWCOG, you were told to stay away from medicine and they had lots of directions on what you could or not do in the bedroom. Of course such rules didn’t interfere with Herbert’s incestuous relationship with his daughter or Garner Ted’s serial adultery with wives of pastors under him, seducing coeds at Ambassador College and the nickel and dime ordinary extramarital affairs. I am not making gossipy or speculative accusations, the dirty laundry has been admitted to.
All three groups could well be called Adventist off-shoots, with extremely interesting characters leading the groups. Studying from the outside is fascinating but I have great sympathy for those who had to reconcile their faith with the actions and words of their leaders.
Reply
Duds says:
July 10, 2014 at 7:03 pm
Hi Art Fern
Yes, I never became a member of the WWCOG but I certainly, study many of their doctrines before becoming a witness.That was before Garner Ted was caught out. Never knew about Hebert’s ill adventures seems like it ran in the family (lols) My dealing with the SDA is when I meet them in F/S and from a young man we had working for us. I have a friend who was bought up a SDA and became a witness we now do things differently. We don’t go a long with all the falseness coming from the wts. I’m amazed how they have in the last few years have misquoted and mislead and told outright lies to defend their false doctrines. Especially how they interrupt the FDS and GB and that they were chosen as that in 1918/1919.
Their doctrine of 607BCE for destruction of Jerusalem is perhaps one of the biggest lies of modern day religious history, and they have known that to be a lie since the mid 70s. Now they are caught up in a whirlpool of self deception without a way out.
The next couple of years will be telling, they are going to have to face up to it eventually, I don’t know how they will save face!
May you have peace!
And Cheers!
Reply
Holy Connoli says:
July 10, 2014 at 7:22 pm
Duds
Good to hear from you again. I used to think that the 1914 doctrine and the FDS and GB and 607bce would be the undoing of the WT. Now as I have talked with many JW’s I am not sure it will effect them in that way. It seems the ones I talk to just don’t seem to care much like it doesn’t really matter? Well, it mattered to me all my JW years. I just couldn’t quite go along with it 100% bc it seemed so unscriptural and not conclusive enough. Especially that Jesus came in 1914 but we cannot see him and that was the 2nd coming of Christ? I think the modern day JW is being programmed to slowly accept anything they tell them and not to question things at all. Just SHUT UP and Believe what we say!! Or I thin a large number of then do not want to face the facts that they may have wasted their lives serving men.They may also become more and more mainstream as time goes on like the WWC did or the SDA’s did. I think there will be a BIG shakeup soon though or perhaps a GOVERNIBG BODY member will leave due to flip flopping and become a modern day Ray Franz?
Reply
Duds says:
July 11, 2014 at 1:28 am
Hi Holy Connoli
Yeah, I’ve been over at Topix discussing things with them, I’ve pop in a few times to keep up with Cedars posts.
I tend to agree with you about the witnesses, they are being well groomed about accepting what the GB says, anything they say is going to be accepted regardless of how inaccurate it is.
Perhaps, some will see through the mirage and make a break, but the fear of losing friends and family by dis-fellowshiping is a strong force.
Recent w/ts have been stressing that witnesses should be avoiding all kinds of apostate material, hating opposing websites, not sharing e-mails etc with anyone speaking contrary to the GB.
It’s sad that the wts has this crazy notion that anyone seeing something different to them is wrong, the general public they call on are not up to date with jargon of the wts and sites like Cedars and wt facts are great accesses for them to see the other side.
Cheers
Reply
Duds says:
July 12, 2014 at 6:37 am
Hi Holy Connoli
Thanks for your thoughts, I posted a response the other night, but noticed to night it has not been posted. Don’t know what happen there. Don’t have time tonight to redo but will catch up soon.
Cheers Duds
Reply
Holy Connoli says:
July 12, 2014 at 10:02 am
Ok Duds. Look forward to hearing from you.Hope things are going well.
Reply
Duds says:
July 15, 2014 at 1:08 pm
Hi Holy
Sorry for the delay. been over on Topix, discussing Dan Ch 4 and the Gentile times. Wts has made a mess of that. There is no parallel that resembles what the wt says about Nebuchadnezzar dream. Just a lot of wishful thinking!
What about this, I was prompted to check out Rutherford “Millions now living will never die” went to their site and this is what I got;
Grateful for My Precious Memories! (8 occurrences)
The Bible lecture “Millions Now Living Will Never Die” proved to be a timely witness in our extensive territory.
w01 8/1 pp. 23-27 – The Watchtower—2001
“The Spirit and the Bride Keep On Saying: ‘Come!’” (5 occurrences)
In that year, the public talk entitled “Millions Now Living May Never Die” offered hope that many will gain life in a paradise earth after the battle of Armageddon.
w10 2/15 pp. 14-18 – The Watchtower—2010
Can you see how they have blatantly lied? Deceptively changed “will” to “may”. Big difference between “will win” the lottery and “may win” the lottery. It beats me why they can’t be honest instead of misleading the people.
May you have peace!
Duds
Reply
Holy Connoli says:
July 19, 2014 at 2:25 am
HI Duds
THE WT cannot be honest about the Gentile times bc it really doesn’t exist? Like you said it is wishful thinking on their part. I don’t think they really belive it anymore themselves but sine it s their main doctrine and everything revolves around it if they admit it or discard it no telling what will happen so they are “protective”of it but more in a quiet way these days.I guess there saying , that this “generation” will by NO MEANS pass away until all these things occur really means it will nt pass away unless the WT says it will!!
Reply
chatpal says:
July 29, 2014 at 8:16 am
i think the next time i get accused of being apostate Ill aks them why its ok for the GB to change its mind but not me. are they not apostates too? after all now they dont agree with themselves from a few years ago. they should all be disfellowshipped huh?
in this case weve all been vindicated.
Reply
Private says:
August 5, 2014 at 8:20 pm
I am in my thirties now and no longer and JW. Once I became an adult I decided to do my own thing. Anyways, I just wanted to say that growing up with parents who tell you that people who celebrate Christmas are worshipping Satan, really screws with a little girls mind. :/ It made me think all my friends and extended family members were bad. But at the same time, when my birthday would come and I was this little girl wishing for a birthday party like all my friends and never got one present my whole life…I felt insecure. Sad. I spent my childhood crying every Christmas morning. It’s tough on children.
Feel free to email me if you want to interview me but, as I still respect all religions, I would appreciate being anonymus. I have alot of things built up in my mind from how I was raised in a strict JW household. I hated it.
Reply
Amy Martinez says:
August 16, 2014 at 4:19 pm
I’m 16 years old and have tons of doubt about being a Jehovah’s Witness. It’s my senior year of high school and a typical teen has tough decisions to make regarding colleges. But not me! I’m supposed to be a pioneer and work a part time job in a restaurant. That is not what I want to do! I am capable of so much more and I just feel as if I am being held back. I want to be a journalist. But that won’t happen as long as I am a Jehovah’s Witness. I have no courage. What can I do?
Reply
anonymous says:
August 16, 2014 at 4:38 pm
Hi Amy. I sure don’t envy you with being where you are now. The biggest regret I have is getting involved in the “Truth” when I got out of school and even just bringing up the idea of college to the ones studying with me, made me feel like I was a criminal for even bringing it up. My suggestion is to get a hold of “Captives of a Concept” and reading it carefully and then using the suggestions in that book, ask for a Bible study in the Proclaimer’s book. That book (Captives of a Concept) points out many things in the Proclaimers book that would prove to your parents that God could never have chosen the Watchtower Organization in 1919. You can’t just convince anybody who is a died in the wool Witnesses any other way. No matter what you tell them, they won’t believe it but if you can point it out to them, little by little from that book and the Proclaimer’s book, they, hopefully will come to realize that they (your parents) are in the wrong religion. I sure wished it could be easier for you but doing it that way will take some time. You should tell your parents that since this is your entire life you are talking about, that you want to know the history of the Organization.
Reply
Amy says:
August 17, 2014 at 12:47 pm
Thank u
Reply
anonymous says:
August 17, 2014 at 12:56 pm
I hope it works and you are welcome.
Reply
Dazed&Confused says:
September 9, 2014 at 4:26 pm
I am not surprised by the change but it is blatant. I noticed long ago most of the articles are riddled with words such as….possibly, apparently, it seems, could be…..
Reply
Dazed&Confused says:
September 9, 2014 at 4:28 pm
Oops…. That last comment was for Duds
Reply
Holy Connoli says:
September 19, 2014 at 4:11 am
The WT just came out with an article in recent WT pretending to still believe the 607 BCE story? They had a short article with a supposed Bible Study trying to understand the 607-1914 end of Gentile rule nonsense. I know the GB cannot really believe that anymore?
Reply
Excelsior! says:
September 25, 2014 at 3:49 am
Amy,
I would like to suggest a compromise, if that is possible in your circumstances.
Why not attend college part time? Perhaps choosing a course that will provide you with a “Witness Friendly” career? I know elders who are dentists and other professions that they learned whilst Witnesses.
If you are in the US, all of your credits will add up, and you can always take more classes as you progress in your academic career.
I would not suggest linking going to college with deprogramming your folks. Keep them separate issues for now.
It is a fact that the wtbts pay for men to take degrees in law, so why can’t you go to college part time?
I attended college with just the equivalent of a high school diploma, by completing an access to higher education course. It is never too late to study!
I hope this advice proves useful to you and good luck with your studies.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
Sean says:
October 8, 2014 at 6:15 pm
I was introduced to Jehovah at a very young age and was off and on with attending meetings and having a bible study until I was 16 then alas the “world” got the better me. For the next 24 years I did the best to become a part of this world. Even found a a church I began to attend regularly for a few years until recently. I could never shake the feeling that what the church’s were teaching just wasnt true. I truly believe Jehovah’s Witnesses have a correct interpretation of scripture especially concerning matters of Jehovah and his son Jesus. I was out in the “world” long enough to get a good understanding that there is nothing good out there for me. I see alot of distrust among the leadership from the comments I am reading. I used to feel the same way and to be perfectly honest I still have doubts. The one thing I do believe and you can call me crazy but I know Satan is real and he is truly the “author of confusion”. The Watchertower Society is a human organization and they are not infallible people. The literature I read and discern using my bible and referencing other bibles has helped me in ways I am not sure you can even imagine or maybe just forgotten or become disallusioned. I look at where I was mentally a year ago and where I am now and I have seen how Jehovah is working in my life. We all have doubts. Doubts kept me away for nearly 25 years. When I look at this world everything seems so clear to me. Whether the new system comes next year or 100yrs from now makes me no difference. Im not worrying about whether the governing body got an end times prophecy accurate. Im trusting completely in my God Jehovah anf the one he sent Jesus Christ. Men dont have it all figured out. Moses had doubts. Abraham had doubts, Elijah, Jeremiah, Micah all of them. People said they were crazy. People call me crazy for being one of JWs. That used to bother me when I was 16 but now at 40 it doesnt. The Bible is my guide and I trust Jehovah to put the people in my life who will keep me spiritually uplifted and able to face anything the Enemy throws my way. People ask me what if your wrong. If I am wrong then the Bible says to dust I will return. I will simply be dead. Jehovah God will not forsake me. I wrote this not to put down anyone or make anyone feel bad but just know doubt will come questions will arise dont let things cause you to stumble. I am glad I made it back. Sorry to ramble on and on but I just felt compelled to speak. Have a good evening.
Reply
Oscar Sarabia says:
October 28, 2014 at 10:33 am
Hello..
I have a question I believe you guys can help me answer..
I would first like to say you guys are an inspiration to all of humanity. To break away from Spiritual Slavery is a sign that humanity can make its Heaven on Earth.
I am not a JW, Nor have I had many in contact other than your usual Morning Door Knockers!
I have recently decided to do some Soul Searching again. I was brought up with many Christian Beliefs in many different religions, but I found myself in a very vulnerable position last few weeks. I have been speaking with a JW.. I found her very nice, and I thought she was making some pretty interesting points about scripture. So I went off again, reading the Bible and trying to find meaning to all this scripture.. Without submitting to religious belief.
I now have some friendly debates with my JW friend. Whenever I get to see her, No invite to house for a non needed bible interpretation. But I am at a point where I am now simply interested on what she has to say about scripture, so im debating the invitation. She is just sooooo niceee!!!! but Ok enough life story, im looking for a opposite point of view. As I believe its wise to do..
1)What do you like least about JW?
2)What do you think is the best thing about JW? if your not yet a member or are also considering learning more.. then what do you find Most Attractive or Inspiring about it??
3) Other comments..
I just love other comments…
I thank you.. may GOD.. whoever he is to you. Bless you and guide you on your own path..
Reply
anonymous says:
October 28, 2014 at 1:40 pm
Hi Oscar. I love your question and this is my answer to you. I’d get a copy of Crisis of Conscience or you can read it from JWsurvey. Cedars has it under life stories on the right side of the Title page under life stories and it’s Cedar’s story “The Story of Cedars – A Prisoner No More” and you can read it for free if you prefer to read it that way.
Ray Franz was one of the Governing Body members of Jehovah’s Witnesses so he had an inside look at how the Watchtower is run. Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t allowed to read his book because Ray Franz was disfellowshipped for apostasy. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not allowed to read any literature that brings into doubt the legitimacy of the Watchtower’s claim that they are the only spokesman from God to man. So, that leaves out anything and everything that might teach differently than what the Watchtower teaches. Jehovah’s Witnesses are banned from examining the history of their own religion, while they do encourage all others that they study with to study the history of that other religion.
You need to read Crisis of Conscience before you talk to your Witness friend the next time and these are the questions I would ask them after you have read the book. Before you ask him or her any questions, first make it clear to them that you have read that book. Since you are not a Witness, you are allowed to read it. If any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses were allowed to read that book and read it, they would not be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses anymore, so that’s why it’s so very important that the Watchtower Society doesn’t want any of it’s followers to read that book.
Questions to ask your friend:
Have you read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz (allow to answer and most likely will say no)
Ask why not? (allow to answer and will most likely say it’s because he was an apostate)
Ask them to define what is an apostate? (let them answer)
Ask them then if he got disfellowshipped for apostasy, it had to be after he turned apostate right? (They will say yes)
Ask them then what about the books he wrote for the Watchtower when he wasn’t disfellowshipped, such as the Aid to Bible Understanding and the James books? Would you (friend) consider those also to be apostate reading? (They won’t know what to say)
Ask them, at what point do you think his writing would be considered apostate? (They won’t know what to say)
Ask them, what if Ray Franz, when he was still in good standing, disagreed with the majority of the Governing Body when it came to major Watchtower policy? Would you say then that he was going against the Holy Spirit since he was going against what the majority said was the “truth?” (Let them answer. They won’t know what to say, but they might think that he was going against Holy Spirit.
Ask them if as long as the majority made major decisions affecting the rest of Jehovah’s Witnesses, then the Holy Spirit would be helping them to make a correct decision then? (They’d probably say yes)
Tell the Witness friend that when Ray Franz was on the Governing Body in 1972, the majority of the Governing Body made it policy that it wasn’t adultery for a man to have sex relations with an animal or another man but it was Ray Franz who went against the majority of the Governing Body and argued that it was adultery and grounds for divorce.
Ask that friend of yours: So who do you think had the Holy Spirit, Ray Franz or the Governing Body? (Let them answer) They would have to say Ray Franz or else why would the Watchtower have had to just a few months later, admit they had made a mistake it was adultery and grounds for divorce and print a retraction.
So, the last question to your Witness friend would be: So, why do you think that the Watchtower disfellowshipped Ray Franz, when he obviously did have the Holy Spirit and the rest did not? Do, you think it’s possible that they disfellowshipped him to keep him quiet so he would not be able to tell anybody about how the Watchtower does not have God’s Holy Spirit after all and that’s why his books are banned?????
Reply
anonymous says:
October 29, 2014 at 10:43 am
Hi Oscar. I have done a little more research and I wanted to add to my last comment to you.
Before you start asking your Witness friend the questions that I posted to you above, I would like to have you start out with this questions first:
What would you think of a religion that told it’s members that it was not scriptural grounds for divorce and remarry if one of the mates had homosexual intercourse with someone other than their mate or if they had sex with animals and that the innocent mate had to stay with that person. If they did divorce and remarry, they’d be excommunicated? What would you think of that religion?
(Allow for response. They will probably think it’s a terrible religion)
Ask your friend: Is this a religion you would want to belong to? Do you think God could be approving and blessing a religion like that?
Now Oscar this is for your information and this is a direct quote from the 1956 Watchtower Oct. 1, page 591 “Sodomy (or the unnatural intercourse of one male with another male as with a female), Lesbianism (or the homosexual relations between women), and bestiality (or the unnatural sexual relations by a man or woman with an animal) are not scriptural grounds for divorce.”
This was official Watchtower policy from at least 1956 until the December 1972 page 767 Watchtower when it was Ray Franz who was able to convince the rest of the Governing Body the error of the Watchtower’s ways and they decided it was adultery and grounds for divorce after all.
Reply
anonymous says:
October 29, 2014 at 11:10 am
Oscar, you can relate what that 1956 Watchtower says and they can look it up if they don’t believe you, which they probably won’t but they might come back with the “that’s old light” excuse but then you could say “no, it wouldn’t be old light because they restated the very same policy in the 1972 Watchtower January 1, pages 31, 32.
Your Witness friend won’t have an answer for that. You, knowing all this is something your friend has been purposely kept in the dark about. It’s a cult and not a very good one at that. Run as fast as you can from it and don’t get involved. That is my advice if you want to be happy.
Reply
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Welcome
Welcome to JWsurvey.org, the online voice for Jehovah’s Witnesses
of the past, present, and future.
JWsurvey.org is the proud home of the 2014 Global Survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you are, or ever have been, a Jehovah’s Witness – please take this survey! Even if you were never actually baptized or have been away from the Witnesses for many years, we encourage you to have you say and share your opinions regarding the Watch Tower Society, and its leaders the Governing Body.
If you are a current or former Witness, you will know only too well that doubts are not permitted among the brothers, and the Governing Body expects and demands your unquestioned loyalty. If there is any teaching you are uncertain of, you must “wait on Jehovah,” which effectively means burying your doubts and pretending they never existed. Over time, these suppressed doubts accumulate until you are nothing more than a robot, going through the motions and doing what is expected of you – but never truly believing it 100%.
Jehovah’s Witnesses who have doubts are expected to “wait on Jehovah” by effectively burying them
If this describes your current situation, then please be assured that there are hundreds if not thousands like you who are at various stages of waking up to the reality of the JW faith. As you probably suspect already, there is more to this religion than meets the eye, and the Watchtower literature has not been telling you the full truth about the organization’s history.
The trouble is, even if you no longer agree with the Governing Body on a number of issues, you may feel (as many do) that you are bound to the organization against your will through the cruel practice of shunning. Though the Society argues that shunning is scriptural, it is actually anything but. Shunning was instituted by the Apostle Paul to keep congregations clean – not as an instrument for tearing families apart.
This and many other damaging practices are dealt with periodically on my blog, which I encourage you to check from time to time. I do my very best to keep Witnesses informed as to what is REALLY going on in the organization, rather than giving them the kind of carefully-manicured information you will find in JW.org articles and press releases.
Please enjoy using this site, and treat it as though it is yours. After all, here you are free to be yourself and exchange opinions about the organization with others. All we ask is that you do NOT try to use our website as a platform for evangelizing religious or atheistic views. This website is religiously-neutral and has been set up as an indoctrination-free sanctuary. We appreciate your help and cooperation in keeping it that way.
We hope you find the information on JWsurvey useful, and that our efforts can play some part in your spiritual journey. Remember: You are no longer the silent majority. Your opinion matters. Now make it count!
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anonymous says:
October 29, 2014 at 11:31 am
and Oscar, in that 1956 Watchtower quoted above about marriage, it said that the reason why there is so much marital unhappiness is that a lot of women don’t realize that they are “inferior” to men. Need I say more????
Reply
holy connoli says:
June 3, 2015 at 1:35 am
@anonymous? Do you know if we can still read the 1956 Watchtower on line? If I go to JW.orf do you think the articles will go back that far? I would like to see and read that quote.
Thanks,
Reply
anonymous says:
June 3, 2015 at 4:58 am
@holy connoli, I don’t think you can. I got a 1956 bound volume off of Ebay but they are far and few in between. If you can get one though, grab it. Those articles are eye-opening as far as how the Society views women. I think that is why you can’t get those old Watchtower articles on jw online library. If you can find it, I would be curious though.
Reply
holy connoli says:
June 3, 2015 at 10:00 am
@anonymous. I had a bunch of old WT from the 1940’s nd 1950’s that I found in an old sisters house after she died about 20 years ago. I kept them for a while and then gave them away to a pioneer sister and she was going to put them in the Kingdom hall Library. Maybe they are still there but I doubt it. I used to like reading the Old WT’s at the time I thought they were pretty deep but now I realize they were just “WEIRD” interpretations that sounded like they were so deep! Now they disregard all that stuff ha!
If I can get hold of them I will let you know.
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 1:11 am
and Oscar, to add to my last comment. You might also ask your Witness friend why it was not adultery and grounds for divorce in that religion for a man to have sex relations with another man or an animal for all those years but at the very same time if the husband had a vasectomy so his wife couldn’t get pregnant and she had artificial insemination so she could have a child, that was grounds for divorce for the husband so he could get rid of his wife??????
Ask your Witness friend if they would want to belong to that religion?????
Believe it or not, that still is the case today. That has never been done away with in the Watchtower.
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 1:18 am
and Oscar, since the man knew he was sterile, he could turn his wife in for adultery and get a divorce from her for adultery her because she had artificial insemination and she would be disfellowshipped for that. That is the demonic thinking and background of the Jehovah’s Witness religion. Do you really want to belong to a religion that treats women like that?????
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 2:17 am
and Oscar, another way a man can divorce his wife for adultery is if she survives a rape (Watchtower June 1, 1968 page 348). If a woman survives an attack, not only will her husband be able to divorce her for adultery, she could be disfellowshipped for adultery as well. Who do you think is the God of this religion???? It sure sounds demonic to me……
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 2:24 am
and Oscar, in the Jehovah’s Witness religion, if a child is molested and raped, they have to have two witnesses to the molestation or rape or if they do not have witnesses and the attacker denies the attack, the elders will do nothing to the attacker and if the victim should report the attack or molestation to the police, it will be the child or adult victim who could be threatened with being shunned because of that child would be the one bringing reproach on the Organization and not the attacker.
What do you think of a religion like that? Do you really think a loving and just God could be at the helm????? Or does it sound more like a Satanic religion????
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 2:33 am
and Oscar, if you or your child should be in an accident and need a blood transfusion, in this religion you can’t take the blood to save your life or your child’s life or you will be disfellowshipped. The Watchtower religion says not to worry though because even if you or your child should die, at least you were faithful to the Watchtower God and he will resurrect you back on the earth, where there is not one single scripture that tells you that in the Bible. You are just to take their word for it.
Kind of sounds like what the serpent told Eve in the Garden of Eden, doesn’t it??????
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 2:40 am
and Oscar, just to add some frosting on the cake: If you ever decide to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and get baptized into it, and you found out that the the Watchtower is lying to you, you are not allowed to disassociate yourself from it for the rest of your life. If you do, you will be disfellowshipped and shunned for the rest of your life and not allowed to talk to anybody still in that religion, even if it’s your own relatives.
Is that the kind of religion you really want to be part of?????
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 2:51 am
and Oscar, if you ever go to a meeting at the Kingdom Hall, all the Witnesses are trained to “love bomb” you to make you think they will just love you to pieces if you become one of them, but the moment you doubt any of the teachings, they will drop you like a hot brick.
Does this sound like a cult to you??????
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 3:00 am
and Oscar, if you become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you will be judged on how you look, how much you participate at meetings and how many hours you get in service. If you don’t measure up, you are considered weak and bad association…. Also, there’s over 1,000 rules you must follow or you will be considered bad association if you should break those rules…..
Are you sure this is the life for you??????
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 3:08 am
and Oscar, they will tell you that they are the only religion going from door to door preaching the Bible and even that isn’t true because Mormons do it too. But it doesn’t matter to them that what they preach from door to door, can’t be proven in the Bible or not. It’s just important to them that they go from door to door and to them, that is enough for them to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and think that they are the only ones approved by God. If you don’t do all of this, you will be considered a weed and killed at Armageddon. They are that self-righteous.
Don’t be fooled into believing this. The Witnesses have been tricked into this religion by scare tactics and they are brainwashed. I know because I was one for 50 years.
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 3:48 am
and Oscar, if you do decide to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you have to say good bye to ever going to any R rated movies again, or reading any literature other than Watchtower literature and you had better not talk about anything you saw on television or looking at anything on the internet except jw.org or you will be considered bad association. The only thing other Witnesses want to hear from you is experiences you had in service. Anything else is frowned on. That is drummed into Witnesses in almost every Watchtower magazine and don’t even think about telling an off-color joke or using a cuss word unless you want to be kicked out on your heels.
Is that the kind of straight jacket life for you????? If so, then being a Jehovah’s Witness is perfect for you.
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 6:49 am
and Oscar, if you do decide to go ahead and have a “book, Bible” study with your witness friend, expect your friend to listen to you and be your best friend all the time you are “studying” with them but you will be expected to “progress” in the “truth” to going to every meeting (5 meetings a week) and every assembly (3 assemblies every year). If you don’t “progress”, you will be dropped and you will be very hurt by the experience so if you want to keep this Witness as your friend, you had better “progress” in the “truth”. Right now, unless you are a Witness, you are “bad association” for them, even though they won’t come right out and tell you that.
Once you are regular at meetings, you will be expected to progress to answering and preparing for all those meetings and joining the ministry school and giving Bible talks in front of the congregation. But yay, they clap for you when you give your first talk, making you feel like a “star”.
You will be expected to progress to going from door to door. You will be expected to “pioneer” or have a darn good excuse not to do it. If you are unable to “pioneer” (70 hours door to door every month), you are to have the “pioneer” spirit.
If you are a man, you are expected to “progress” to being an elder and that is spending endless hours preparing for talks, giving talks and going to the Kingdom Hall for endless meetings and leaving your family at home most of the time.
You will be expected to give up all your Saturdays and Sundays for the talk and Watchtower study and for going from door to door and if you get old enough to retire, you will be expected to use all those extra hours you now have to “pioneer” or have a good excuse not to.
You will be expected to marry only somebody who is also one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. You will not be allowed to send your children to college or you will be looked down on but you will sit in your Kingdom Hall, surrounded by people who did go to college before they became a Jehovah’s Witness, and see them be the “toast” of the congregation but because you didn’t go to college and can’t afford a nice house or nice car, people will gravitate to those who did go to college and have the nice cars and lots of money.
If you have children, you will be overlooked as an elder, unless your child gets baptized at an early age and if your child doesn’t fit the mold (does something wrong or doesn’t want to go to Bethel and pioneer when they get out of high school), you will be deleted as an elder because you didn’t raise your child properly.
Forget vacations. They will be spent at assemblies. That is the only time you are allowed to spend any money that you might have saved up during your year. If you are able to have a vacation where you don’t have to spend it at assemblies, you will have to take meeting clothes along so you don’t miss any meetings wherever you spend your vacation.
Right now, I can’t really think of anything good about being a Jehovah’s Witness, except that they won’t go to war but I am still thinking…….
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 7:04 am
and Oscar, if you do get married and your mate decides to leave you and divorces you, you are not allowed to remarry, unless your mate remarries first or admits to adultery or you will be disfellowshipped.
Does this religion still sound appealing to you?????
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 7:18 am
Oscar, I thought of one good thing. You don’t have to spend money on Christmas presents anymore. You won’t have to spend money on birthday presents anymore or valentines cards or mother’s days gifts or father’s day gifts. You won’t be able to celebrate Thanksgiving with your family anymore because you don’t want to give any of your relatives the impression that you celebrate Thanksgiving day. The only friends your children will be allowed to have are Witness kids. Your kids will have to go out in the hall every time there’s some kind of holiday that your kids won’t be able to partake of. You will have to sit while everybody stands for the National Anthem. Your kids won’t be able to say the pledge at school. Your kids will be expected to preach to their school mates as that’s their own “personal territory”. Your kids won’t be able to join the football team or be a cheerleader or go to school dances.
Are you there yet? Sound good to you????
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 7:27 am
and Oscar, I thought of another good thing. You will save money on lottery tickets because you aren’t allowed to gamble even if it’s just one lottery ticket. You can’t say gosh, golly or gee because that’s swearing. You can’t vote and can’t get involved in political talk because then you aren’t being neutral. You can’t play chess because that’s too violent.
I am still trying to think of some good things about being a Witness, but I am running out of space in my brain…..
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anonymous says:
October 30, 2014 at 7:28 am
and Oscar, last but not least is you are not allowed to think. The Watchtower has already done that for you.
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Holy Connoli says:
October 30, 2014 at 11:51 am
Oscar
You cannot get involved in Politics or vote but the WT can Secretly Join the United nations and promote it and then as soon as it is found out 10 years later they immediately withdraw from the UIN and claim they only joined to do Library research? That is an out right lie bc you do not need to join to do library research. They also TEACH that ALL governments are from Satan but yet they have applied to receive Government money in Countries like Sweden, Norway and others just like the state gives money to the Lutheran Church and Catholic Church as well but they have to be approved? So the WT is or has received Money from Satan’s governments to support themselves. Also all governments are from Satan but yet they apply and use the World Court systems and European international Court to promote themselves and make sure their rights are not violated. SO I guess Satan is helping them since he runs the government right?
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Rosie says:
October 30, 2014 at 3:03 pm
Oscar
One other thing, if you are still thinking that becoming a JW could be a good idea. If you have close friends who do not want to join you in becoming a JW – you will no longer be allowed to have any friendship with them. You will be advised that they are bad associations.
I can recall a young lady who started studying with the JWs. She was warmly embraced into the bosom of the congregation (love bombed) and invited to all the congregational social occasions. Unfortunately she had a very close friend (a very nice lady) who although willing to meet her new JW friends did not want to join her in studying in order to become one.
I watched as the Sister who studied with her (along with others in the congregation), brutally and cruelly severed the long and close relationship between these two friends until they no longer had any contact with each other.
Please take heed of what Anonymous has written. This JW organisation is like the apple that Snow White ate in the fairy-tale. Rosy in appearance on the outside but full of poison within.
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CARLOS says:
November 3, 2014 at 7:02 am
The brothers in charge are just doing the best they can, The interest is pleasing God.
Don’t like this group? Join one that lets you have more freedom, one that lets you be you.
Want to hear what you like and not what is correct. then there are many other groups that seem like they do but really don’t.
Or better yet don’t belong to a group, just do yr own thing.
If you hate structure and organization, don’t be a JW
I could not be happier after 56 years of being a witness, and i have seen not all but a great deal.
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Holy Connoli says:
November 3, 2014 at 10:59 am
Carlos
It isn’t about hating structure or not. It is about being part of a dictatorship or not. It is about accepting or rejecting abuse by an Organization that try’s to controls your every waking hour and thoughts. It is about belonging to a Religion that separates and destroys families if someone in the religion just happens to disagree with a teaching or a “New Light” ever changing prophecy. If the WT had a track record of being correct on anything that would be one thing but their record is HORRIBLE, their predictions are off the chart WRONG but yet they discriminate against anyone who says hey, I cannot accept that line of thought based on past practice and I cannot accept never ever being able to have a relationship with my family. children, spouse or friends if I do no accept the teaching of WT.
Why should we accept the 2 witness rule for child molestation and the hidden secrets of the WT on policy making in this regard? It is morally Wrong, and illegal from a human standpoint. So may issues with the WT ever changing teachings, So it isn’t about structure Carlos it is about damage control and hurt that they cause and have caused over 100 years.
Can you name 1 PROPHECY that they have uttered or predicted that has proven true? Just 1. Please don’t be vague. Be Specific and point out true facts of fulfilling prophecy by the WT.
Glad you are in a good place Carlos but we have to be honest in our viewpoints of accuracy. Many of the JW’s I have recently spoke with on the “NEW LIGHT” Generation explanation are now saying it doesn’t really matter to me if 1914 is true or not? Really? Wow! This was and is the Central teaching of the JW’s for the last 80 years. They were SO Forthright that there was no room for error and so convincing that Jesus came in 1914 and the Generation ABOSLUTELEY without ANY DOUBT would no t Pass away before the New Order came. There was no room for discussion. You as a 56 year old member no doubt recall EVERY AWAKE Magazine Published it on the inside cover until it became evident that they were SO WRONG! Do they acknowledge their error? Do they apologize? Do they say anything about the other DUFF Prophecies?
False predications are only 1 item we are discussing here. Can you please show me 1 prediction or prophecy they said that came true? Just one.
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anonymous says:
November 3, 2014 at 11:25 am
Carlos, can you find even one scripture in the Bible that says that the earth is going to be turned into a paradise?
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Holy Connoli says:
November 9, 2014 at 3:07 am
Carlos? With all due respect to you in sincerity can you answer my questions about accuracy of Prophecy from the Watchtower please?
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Cacanisso says:
December 10, 2014 at 7:50 am
My mother in law during his life, fought fervently to bring people to JW (house preaching at home). Today, is a home of the 3rd Age, and for 07 years, never seen there, a stupor of JW or WT or Tvgia, to wonder, how many hours does a month, or you need diapers or have other needs, perhaps esperitual up, nothing. As had legs to walk from house to house, they said the brother was very s spiritual. Today, no one seeks to know it. My mother, constantly giving, or deposited in the box and contributions paid once € 700 / dollars, the chairs of a hall of Albufeira, Algarve. I’ve never been caught by WT, because me and my wife, we are smart, never let it be manipuados by the mind control.
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Johnny p says:
December 19, 2014 at 5:38 pm
I find it interesting that so many ex-jw’s end up being atheist or agnostic. Does anyone else find that interesting or telling?
They learn while being a JW how backwards other churches and religions are, but then when they realize the WT has its dark side, it becomes unthinkable to continue the search in earnest – and so many revert to atheism or agnosticism. I find that sad, and it leaves me realizing that while it may be true WT doesn’t have “the (whole) truth”, its not as if anti-WT people have any “sayings of everlasting life”. These sites just leave me more thirsty than anything.
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Johnny p says:
December 19, 2014 at 5:58 pm
Holy: Why do you care what Carlos believes? Do you have some better religion you plan on sharing with him? If he is happy in being a JW for 56 years – why is it your job to change his mind?
Again, I find it very curious why someone agnostic (not saying you are – but the website owner) thinks showing people why JWs are false is good for people like Carlos. If you dont have something better to relate – or “good news” to share – then you just want to tear him down to believe nothing? Its like bothering to tell everyone on the Titanic who was praying and crying to God that no one was listening and they had no hope of a heavenly life – just for kicks.
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Holy Connoli says:
December 23, 2014 at 2:18 pm
Johnny P
Fair question you asked.
First Let me say I am not an agnostic or atheist.
Never have been. Even before my 20 plus years with the JW’s.I will ask the JW’s the same question? Why are they “HELL BENT” on changing other peoples belief to the JW belief? Why is their entire purpose to convert other religions to their own religion. We all know that they publicly teach that EVERY OTHER religion except for the JW”S are part of the worldwide false religious structure known as “BABYLON” the Great correct? That includes ALL Christian and non Christian religions.
Every last one of them all soon to be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon.So if these othe non JW’s are happy why do they bug them and tell them they are so wrong? Why do they try to convert them to the JW’s?
That being said, I was originally answering a question that Carlos proposed about religious structure and I answered him.There could be people “happy” in the Hari Krishnas, or the Scientologists or the Moonies,or the Jim Jones Cult, or the David Koresh people in Texas etc.That doesn’t mean I cannot give an opinion. The question was put up who else has sayings of everlasting life? According to the Bible only Jesus does. Not some religious organization or sect. The point I made is you do not have to belong to some Exclusive group to have salvation. Nowhere does the bible state that. It says only Jesus has sayings of eternal life. Not the Catholics, Muslims, or the WT Org.I will ask you the same question in sincerity that I asked Carlos and many others. Can you show me explicitly 1… just 1 prediction or prophecy that proves beyond a doubt that the JW’s foretold am major prophecy accurately? Or that 1 thing they said came explicitly true in the past 75 years? Please don’t refer to some general event. I mean Specifically something the WT has ever said that came true on time without a doubt?
I was tying to get Carlos to think that is all, He doesn’t have to belong tot he WT to have Gods blessing. That is the whole thing with Cults. They brainwash their member s to think they have special favor or inside information on God that no OTHER group has in the entire earth. The WT has done a good Job at doing that to its members.
So I ask you if you can please show me one prophecy or prediction in the last 75 years or ever that the WT has undisputable proof that what they said came true?
Peace to all
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Grace formally Thankyouall! says:
December 19, 2014 at 6:16 pm
I suppose it depends on what sayings of everlasting life you are looking for johnny p. I think you’re assuming much if you think that most become athiest or agnostic. If you believe the essence of Jesus’ teachings it seems clear that he came to lighten up the overburdened sheep from the pharisaical leadership & to give each person the dignity to discern for themselves what is right & wrong from the principals he set forth with his parables.
Sayings of everlasting life is a personal thing. Happy is the man conscious of his spiritual needs. Spirituality relies on personal faith & not how you are perceived to look or act or obedience to a man made entity.
Since I stepped back in to the ‘world’ away from wt indoctrination, I have come to appreciate just how spiritual many people are in the ‘world’. People who show a more loving spirit without judgement than what I experienced with the so called true Christians. I had to step outside though to really appreciate that.
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Holy Connoli says:
December 23, 2014 at 2:01 pm
Johnny P
Did you get my last response ?
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Honesty says:
March 27, 2015 at 7:04 am
Now I see, I just realized what this website is really all about. YOU ARE (APOSTATES!!!) Now I clearly understand the faulty critisim and lies! You were disfellowshiped! No wonder you’re angry or bitter, and speak against Jehovah and his true worshippers! So now I really putty you all. What a waste…lol
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Holy Connoli says:
March 27, 2015 at 10:44 am
Honesty. Really? It took you that long to figure out that people on here are not promoters of the WT and the JW cult? No one is hiding the position they are taking. Unlike the WT that tries to hide their true past and all the errors and mistakes they made and continue to make. If the WT was honest they would come out and admit their errors and hundreds of false duff prophecies and change their ways. Of course they won’t do that bc they are not humble and certainly not honest with their past or present. Can I ask you the same question I have asked dozens and perhaps hundreds of other JW’s?
Can you show me 1. Just one accurate prophecy the JW”s have spoken over the last 135 years of their existence that has come true without a doubt?
They have uttered and predicted many many things and to my knowledge not ONE thing has come true. Please don’t be general and quote 1:tim 3:1-5 I mean specific like who is the King of the North and King of the South? When is Gods Kingdom coming ? Why is 1914 been reinterpreted again? How come the 1914 generation is gone and nothing happened that they said without a doubt it would? Gog of Magog? The WT has flip floppedso MANY times how do you know what to believe anymore? It reminds me of all the other religions that have been proved wrong on their predictions of the end of the world. JW’s are no different at all except they are meaner than most of the other ones. So I ask you in sincerity ? Can you show me one prophecy the JW’s have predicated that has come true in the last 135 years? Just 1 with accuracy.
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A says:
May 5, 2015 at 6:40 pm
if Paul told us to keep the congressional clean , then why does God allow wheat and weeds grow together?
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Holy Connoli says:
May 5, 2015 at 7:31 pm
Honesty
I was never disfellowshipped. I am not considered an apostate but the truth is the WT is a Hypocritical religion full of duff fake prophecies and they hide the truth about themselves and the inner chambers and secrets of what goes on in the GB.I was an Elder for 12 years and many other “privileges” We have to face reality and just read what the true history of the WT is and how they hide their own sins to look good to the public. They have rewritten their own history to trey to put s great picture of themselves but the truth is they lie. They are cruel and they divide and hurt families. NOT ONE prophecy they have ever said has come true. PLEASE NAME me 1 accurate prophecy they have uttered that is true? Just 1undeniable prediction or prophecy that they can prove beyond a doubt?. This is my challenge to you and any other JW apologists.
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apologist says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:23 am
Honesty
really
you were an elder??
this is all about salvation… this is not a social club
please then
“honesty”…
honestly tell me what the true religion you now go to for salvation…
or have you now become atheist or agnostic
please… i’m listening
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Cedars says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:29 am
There are three possibilities on the table:
1) That all religions are true
2) That all religions are false
3) That only one religion is true
The first proposition is clearly impossible, since most religions (including yours) tend to be mutually exclusive.
My position, that of proposition 2, is the most easily defensible of the three, and explains why there is so much carnage and immorality in the holy books (because religion is man-made).
If you maintain that proposition 3 is correct, and furthermore that your religion just happens to be the right one, the burden of proof is on you to convince me and everyone else that Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Jehovah’s Witnesses alone, have been chosen as the one true religion by the Creator of the universe.
Prove this, and I will take down this website and my YouTube channel.
Good luck.
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apologist says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:26 am
my comments were directed to holy canoli
the former elder… who only severed for ?? what reason again??
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apologist says:
June 1, 2015 at 12:25 pm
Not all religions are true…
You need to do the work to find out which one is… I have…
Not all religions are false… I have done the work and have drawn the conclusion that Jehovah’s witness have it…
Only one way can be true by definition… there is only one way to do something right…
You position is very very myopic and short sighted… when measured against the bible
There is such a concept as faith
What have you put your faith in??
Jehovah’s witness have put their faith in the bible… and thus all your bashing should be measured against it…
We are not perfect and do not claim perfection…. We attempt to serve God according to what the bible instructs… if we get it wrong we attempt to modify and move forward…
It is not for you to determine how we are to act…
The whole message from the bible is who has the right to dictate…
A lot of the observations stated here are true… so what… ill state it again… it is about salvation… this is not a social club…
We communicate the truth as we understand it from the bible… if you think the world is a better place without Jehovah… enjoy… no one is twisting your arm… we are not killing anyone… let the internet educate you and guide your life…
But… according to the bible… as all JW’s discussions should be directed from… there will be a settling of matters… and Jehovah… or the God you may know as the creator of all things… will
I do not need to prove anything to you
It seems you are a hater of all religion good or bad… but just want to lash out at JW’s
I don’t believe in the god of good luck
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anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 1:00 pm
@apologist, I was in this religion for 50 years so I know what you are saying is what we all believed at one time. I have another challenge for you. Take out your Bible and read Numbers chapter 31 all the way through and tell me how much you love serving Jehovah then. Please do that and come back and defend that God, Jehovah. Something that I don’t want you to miss is how after Moses is to go and kill thousands of Midianites for supposedly no reason at all, they were to take all their hundreds of thousands of animals and all their little girls and the booty was taxed and if I am not mistaken, 10% of the booty was to go to the Levites, including 10% all the little girls that they captured, having had killed their mothers and fathers and little brothers. Can you answer why the Levites would need all those little girls????? This is the God you worship.
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Cedars says:
June 1, 2015 at 12:30 pm
“I have done the work and have drawn the conclusion that Jehovah’s witness have it…”
Should I take that as an attempted answer to my challenge?
“We are not perfect and do not claim perfection….”
No, you just punish former members who no longer agree with you through shunning, and threaten anyone who doesn’t want to be a Witness with death at Armageddon. How humble.
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apologist says:
June 1, 2015 at 2:08 pm
Anonymous
It took you 50 years to realize you could not stomach decisions made by the creator
I think quite a few people died with the flood…
But… its ok
You tell God how to behave…
Btw… what belief system do you follow now…
Have you found a better one… please tell me… if there is a better one I will follow…
Cedars…
you have no challenge… you do not make any sense
if salvation exists… there is only one way to get it… if not by JW’s then by who
as opposed to… religion is man made…
if you were ever a witness you know that from the bibles perspective there is salvation and it boils down to belief
You just want attention and that is why you have created this site which is not a Neutral place of expression…
Are you a former member that feels punished… what did you think you were joining the girls club
This is about serving GOD… JEHOVAH GOD
Who are you to say it is wrong to shun bad behavior
Noooooooo lets accept anything we want
This is so funny you guys treat religion like it is a club that you no longer want part of because it is just too hard
Did you guys ever read what is in the bible…. It is not easy serving God… especially when all this world wants is to hurt people… how can I place myself in Gods head to understand why in Numbers… as stated by anonymous… that happened
Remember
The belief is that this system is coming to an end
You do not think that people will die???
Again… a belief…don’t like it … don’t believe!!!
It is not about this life… it is about the other life
Faith
Remember
Cedars…
Please provide a better solution than to be a witness I challenge you!!!
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Excelsior! says:
June 1, 2015 at 2:24 pm
apologist,
Why do you, and so many other JW supporters, fail to write at an adult level?
Why do you fail to use question marks when asking a question?
Why do you use elipses incorrectly?
Why do you even bother to comment at all?
You and your ilk are all the same! You have no concept of logic, reason or sense!
Why don’t you do yourself and us a favour? Go and do your own research into your religion, buy a non JW bible, and go and read it, without the WT commentary.
Go and do something kind for someone less fortunate than yourself, that would make JESUS happy indeed!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 3:03 pm
@apologist, have you ever researched the history of the Bible and how we got it? We were always told from Watchtower that the Bible is inspired or God breathed and you should know there is not even one original manuscript from the original writers of the Bible so no Bible is actually inspired of God. They are copies of copies and translations of translations. There is no proof at all that any Bible today was actually transcribed by God (if there is a God).
Did you realize if you read your Bible that when Moses left Egypt, he went to live in Midian and married a Midianite girl and had Midianite children and then in Numbers chapter 31, for no reason at all, God tell him to go and kill all the Midianites? He had just left Midian and his father-in-law Jethro helped him with his judging of the Israelites and Jethro goes back to Midian and then in Numbers, he is to go and kill every man, woman and child in Midian, except for all the little girls were their booty. They were supposed to check those little girls to make sure they had never had intercourse with a man. How do you think they would have done that? Then, 90% of those girls, they could keep for themselves and the rest they had to give to the Levite priests at the Temple.
You say that I am telling God what he can do? I don’t have to worship a God like that but if you want to, go ahead. Just don’t judge anybody else if they don’t want to. And yes, it took me 50 years to figure it out that it’s all fiction. That is why I don’t hold it against any God because I don’t believe any of it happened in the first place. Even the Awake magazine had an article in the April 8, 2004 issue pages 1,2 Titled “Moses- Man or Myth?” that said that there is no physical evidence that Moses ever existed or that there was ever the Exodus.
You should read your magazines.
As far as giving you a replacement religion, why is that anybody’s else’s responsibility? Lloyd has given a very good illustration and you should pay attention to it. If somebody comes along and warns you during the night that your house is on fire and gets you out of the house, is it his responsibility then to provide you with a new house?????
Think about it.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 5:52 am
@apologist, I am waiting for you to come back and defend your God. Where are you????
Reply
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 3:18 pm
Lloyd has a good illustration and this is it. If somebody comes along and sees that your house is on fire and it is night time and you are most likely sleeping and he knocks on your door and wakes you up so you can escape being burned to death in your house fire, is it then that person’s responsibility to provide you with a new house?
Yes, sorry to say but it did take me 50 years to “wake” up. Your coming onto this web site is a good sign that maybe you aren’t afraid to learn a thing or two if you stick around a while.
Reply
holy connoli says:
June 2, 2015 at 3:28 am
Apologist?
You said it took 50 years to not agree with decisions made by the Creator? Which decisions from the all knowing perfect Creator are you referring to in the last 50 years? Do you mean the ever , ever changing doctrines of 1914, the F&DS,
the sheep and the goats, The type and the anti type ( may 15th 2015 WT study article ) The basis for scriptural divorce, If you can or cannot speak with a DF person, Gog of Magog, The king of the North and the King of the South, Who will and will not be resurrected, If you can or cannot serve on a jury, if you can vote or not, What is considered sacred service?,If you should have children or marry in this system or just pioneer,1918 and 1919 and if they are bible prophecy being full filled,
Does Jehovah have his own planet he dwells on?,
the declension to “SECRETELY” join the UN an then quickly resign when it became public,all the other many many decesions and flip flop teachings that the T continually changes… so are thoise the decisions you are referring to from the Creator who never makes a mistake and knows the end before the beginning? Either the Wt or Jehovah the Creator have it wrong. I will opt that the WT is the wrong one here! You cannot based on the track record of the WT connect God and the WWT as one and the same.
Reply
Grace says:
June 1, 2015 at 3:23 pm
@Apologist,
When you get skinned & thrown about by the very religion your defending. We will welcome you here with open arms. It’s only a matter of time.
Reply
holy connoli says:
June 2, 2015 at 3:06 am
Apologist:
You claim that the JWs get all their info from the bible. That is only true to the extent that YOU MUST believe their explanation of it and only theirs. If you dare have a different understanding of the bible you will be Disfellowshipped if you dare speak of it.
You mention this is not a “SOCIAL CLUB” but is about salvation. Actually the JW’s act more like a social club than a real social club! They have SO MANY MAN MADE Social Rules you must observe to be a member in good standing. Hair cuts, must wear a tie or suit, No Beards,
no pants for woman, Must report Hours of field service each month, You cannot play on a sports team, No cheerleading, Cannot support your school, you cannot attend the prom,no dating, no cub scouts, no boy scouts,
no girl scouts, you cannot attend a wedding at another church, you cannot attend the funeral of even a family member at another church, No Celebrations at all! No wind chimes, No toasting at a retirement party, the list goes on and on and on and on! If you ever dare to leave this “Religious Social Club” you will be punished and your own family, children cannot talk with you ? That is insanity! So if we are talking about salvation are these man made derogatory rules necessary for Salvation? The Bible is clear on salvation. It is not thru a religious system or religious organization but only thru faith in God and thru Jesus. Christianity is a simple faith. The WT and other religious cults has made it difficult. They tie all kinds of weights around the necks of believers and throw the guilt of God’s disfavor on them continually..you cannot earn salvation it is a gift.
I asked apologist to show me just 1 prediction or prophecy that the WT has made in 135 years that has come true without any fuzzy explanation. What have they directly predicted that proved accurate historically
without a doubt. Show mw a prediction the WT uttered that you can point to and say see, HERE IT IS! We said this event would happen on this day and this year and this time and here it is. Please show me one that is true that they have EVER uttered.
Reply
apologist says:
June 2, 2015 at 7:15 am
I’m here
working on my response
comments coming shortly
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 7:55 am
I can hardly wait….
Reply
apologist says:
June 2, 2015 at 7:25 am
Excelsior… excelsior… excelsior
Your concern is my writing ability??
Elipses??
Why comment… I thought this is a place to express ones thoughts… only your one sided ones count then… hmmmm
I have no concept of logic… reason… or sense… please defend this statement… be specific… otherwise it makes no logic reason or sense… it then just becomes an attack statement… are you afraid you might learn something… hmmmm
Buddy
I’ve done my research… and can defend its findings
My reply to you is being kind… because you seem like a lost cause… you only attack and say nothing at all…
Please take a stand and defend it.
Reply
apologist says:
June 2, 2015 at 10:12 am
looks like cedars is blocking me from answering
oh well… on him not me
Reply
Cedars says:
June 2, 2015 at 10:33 am
If I’m blocking you, I’m clearly not doing a good job am I? Actually I’m letting you comment for now, because you brilliantly showcase the levels of ignorance, arrogance and credulity required to venture on this website and still defend Watchtower.
Reply
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Welcome to JWsurvey.org, the online voice for Jehovah’s Witnesses
of the past, present, and future.
JWsurvey.org is the proud home of the 2014 Global Survey of Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you are, or ever have been, a Jehovah’s Witness – please take this survey! Even if you were never actually baptized or have been away from the Witnesses for many years, we encourage you to have you say and share your opinions regarding the Watch Tower Society, and its leaders the Governing Body.
If you are a current or former Witness, you will know only too well that doubts are not permitted among the brothers, and the Governing Body expects and demands your unquestioned loyalty. If there is any teaching you are uncertain of, you must “wait on Jehovah,” which effectively means burying your doubts and pretending they never existed. Over time, these suppressed doubts accumulate until you are nothing more than a robot, going through the motions and doing what is expected of you – but never truly believing it 100%.
Jehovah’s Witnesses who have doubts are expected to “wait on Jehovah” by effectively burying them
If this describes your current situation, then please be assured that there are hundreds if not thousands like you who are at various stages of waking up to the reality of the JW faith. As you probably suspect already, there is more to this religion than meets the eye, and the Watchtower literature has not been telling you the full truth about the organization’s history.
The trouble is, even if you no longer agree with the Governing Body on a number of issues, you may feel (as many do) that you are bound to the organization against your will through the cruel practice of shunning. Though the Society argues that shunning is scriptural, it is actually anything but. Shunning was instituted by the Apostle Paul to keep congregations clean – not as an instrument for tearing families apart.
This and many other damaging practices are dealt with periodically on my blog, which I encourage you to check from time to time. I do my very best to keep Witnesses informed as to what is REALLY going on in the organization, rather than giving them the kind of carefully-manicured information you will find in JW.org articles and press releases.
Please enjoy using this site, and treat it as though it is yours. After all, here you are free to be yourself and exchange opinions about the organization with others. All we ask is that you do NOT try to use our website as a platform for evangelizing religious or atheistic views. This website is religiously-neutral and has been set up as an indoctrination-free sanctuary. We appreciate your help and cooperation in keeping it that way.
We hope you find the information on JWsurvey useful, and that our efforts can play some part in your spiritual journey. Remember: You are no longer the silent majority. Your opinion matters. Now make it count!
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143 Responses to Welcome
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apologist says:
June 2, 2015 at 10:15 am
Anonymous
If there is a god? It took you 50 years… half a century to figure out that it is all one big story…
ok…
fantastic for you… you figured it out… I do not agree with you… I believe…
So where do we stand?
You do not believe… tell the world from the mountain tops… go door to door to tell people that there is no god… knock yourself out… you have that right… Please do…
But if you want to quote scripture… that is a different story… my understanding here is that we are not to be preachy… so I have resisted quoting scripture…
Also…
Your issue is that the bible is just a story…
I am confused as to what you want to talk about…
I believe the bible is true… you do not… one issue…
2nd issue… if it were true… god is bad… according to the section in numbers you keep quoting… I believe God is love… obviously a conflict… one which you have not resolved… I have…
Two very different issues…
Actually you state a 3rd issue… judgment…
I do not judge you… I will be judged by a judge… who I believe (you do not) that he will judge all…
My belief system commands me to share this knowledge… it is my religion… I live and a free society that allows this… if me acting on my beliefs disturbs you… you need to remind yourself where you have chosen to live…
You not believing in a god may disturb me… but I have to accept it…
On reading the magazines (you seem to enjoy them)
I do read the magazines… just because there is no physical evidence… does not… in my opinion… mean it did not happen or exist… that is why it is called a belief… that is why it is faith… in Gods word… the bible…
I am not asking for a replacement religion…
Using your illustration… JW’s have provided you the house to save you from the fire…
You do not like the house they are providing….
What I am asking then… is that house on fire a better place for JW’s?
If you do not agree that your house is on fire and the JW has made a mistake… please be kind to the JW… who is attempting to be kind to you… and tell him how the house you are living in is a better place… or is it not something you want to do… which is ok too…
Look obviously this forum is from people who do not like JW’s… either they were one before and feel duped…mistreated… etc… or they have family members who are JW’s and they do not like how they behave…
You know that JW’s want to follow a religion… they truly believe they have found the one true religion… if you then say they are full of it… fine that is your right… but we as individuals still want to be part of the religion that we feel Jesus Christ formed… we believe it is the Jehovah’s Witness religion.
Simple stating that we are wrong does nothing… even if we are wrong… we are ok with it…
THAT… is why I ask which one is better… because if there isn’t one… measured against the scriptures… then YES we are the true religion… measured against the scriptures…
As to me being afraid…
I am not afraid… It is my lack of fear that allowed me to discover the one true faith…
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 1:31 pm
@apologist, I didn’t say that I don’t believe in God. I just said if there is a God, there is no proof that this God penned our modern Bibles and you must realize that yourself, don’t you?
All we have are copies of copies and translations of those copies. There is no way one way or the other what God would have written down since all those original manuscripts are long lost and gone. You should look up the history of how we got our Bibles. That is how I began to question whether or not it was really “inspired” of God or not.
What I am saying though is that with all the killing and slaughter of innocent people in the Bible that the Israelites did in conquering the “land of milk and honey”, it would make me think twice about what a “loving” God, Jehovah is.
If you research how the name of God (Jehovah) came about, it isn’t at all what Jackson said in his latest June broadcast. It was a Catholic monk that came up with that name in the 1200’s. Jackson is either stupid or he also doesn’t read the magazines, because it’s in the old Aid to Bible Understanding book and also in the February 1, 1980 Watchtower page 11, if you don’t believe me. So, Jackson was lying through his teeth when he says that Jehovah was in the original manuscripts.
If the Bible is true and without error, then that is a God that I would not and could never love and respect. I always thought the Bible was an embellished history of the Jews but I’d rather believe now that it’s fairy tales than to believe that those Jews were that blood thirsty and after little girls that had never had intercourse with a man. I can’t hate a god that I don’t believe in, can I?
You said that this web site is for people who don’t like Jehovah’s Witnesses? That could not be further from the truth. If Lloyd really didn’t love Jehovah’s Witnesses, he’d never have started this web site. We all love Jehovah’s Witnesses because we all were JW’s and yes we were deceived and duped and hate to see that happen to our loved ones who are still in the Organization, which if you stick around we can prove to you in spades.
Being in the Organization for all those years, I wondered why the Society was so strong against any of us accepting literature from the householder would be so bad for us if we really had the “truth”. Now I know. The Society doesn’t want us to accept any literature from anything or anybody who is critical of Watchtower because they are afraid our teachings might be proved wrong.
You should not be afraid to prove that the JW religion is right. You should take Lloyd’s challenge to prove that God is really backing the JW religion. He has said that if you can prove that God is really backing the JW religion, that he will gladly take down this web sit but so far, nobody has even tried to meet the challenge. You shouldn’t just take somebody’s word for it since you are devoting your life to it.
You should be able to prove that “apostates” are really lying if they are. You shouldn’t be afraid to put your religion to the test. All those years, I followed the advice from the Watchtower and never put my faith to the test. That is something you need to do. That is all we ask of you. Take Lloyd’s challenge. It can’t hurt you and you might be surprised at the results.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 2:45 pm
@apologist, I have a sneaking suspicion that you are here counting your time but what they hey, whatever floats your boat.
I never said that I didn’t believe in God. I just said that if there is a God that there is no proof that he penned the Bible as we know it. Even the Society has to agree with that as per the foreword of the 1985 Kingdom Interlinear.
What I am saying though is that if there is a God, that I could never worship the God of the Hebrew Scriptures and if you want me to start listing all the scriptures that demonstrate it, I will be glad to start. I would prefer to think that it was fiction. I think anybody who would worship the God of the Hebrew Scriptures should be ashamed of themselves for even admitting that and I am not afraid to say that.
I am done with telling people from the rooftops of my beliefs. I did that for 50 years and found out that nothing I was telling those people was actually in the Bible and so yes I was duped.
As far as any of us commenting here, disliking JW’s, you could not be further from the truth. All of here, commenting, love Jehovah’s Witnesses.
If there was any chance that God was actually directing the JW religion, we’d all love to hear your evidence. Lloyd Evans has put that challenge out to you and anybody else defending the Watchtower and he has said that if you can prove that God is actually directing the Society that he will take down this site and I for one would go back to the Kingdom Hall. If you have any evidence, we would all love to hear it.
For people to say they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave class appointed by God, isn’t good enough. That is called circular reasoning. You need to have some kind of proof. That is what we’d all love to hear. If you have any proof, we will be listening to you.
You are right about one thing. If the JW religion is actually a Christian religion, then it should stand up against the Bible. Do you ever wonder why you are not allowed to read “apostate” literature? Can you prove any so-called apostate that they are wrong and you are right? If so, we are all ears.
What Jackson said in his June jwbroadcasting speech about Jehovah being in the Bible first in the 1600’s is a lie and he should know it but I don’t think even he reads the Watchtower literature because it was in the 1980 Feb. 1, Watchtower page 11 that that name was first invented by the Catholics in the 1200’s B.C. It is also in the old “Aid to Bible Understanding”. Don’t hit yourself over the head if you can’t keep up with all the “new light” in the literature because even the Governing Body don’t do it.
Do you realize apologist that you do not have a mediator between you and God? Jesus is only the mediator between Him and Jehovah. You should ask your elders about that. You might find yourself being called an apostate if you do that but look in the Insight book #2 under mediator for that little gem. You can learn a lot from us “apostates” if you dare to learn the truth about the “truth”.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 5:53 pm
I meant the Jesus is the mediator between God and the 144,000 in the Insight Book #2, according to the Watchtower.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 2:48 pm
I meant that Jehovah was invented by the Catholic Church in the 1200’s A.D. not B.C. My mistake.
Reply
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2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate "valuable things"
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If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
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238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
Newer Comments →
Brie says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:37 pm
I am Brie, Thank you so much for writing this! I love this website and have used it many times! I am honored to be part of it!
Reply
sam says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:47 pm
This video was awsome, im so glad it has gone viral. Great job Brie!
Reply
Terri O'Sullivan says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Well done Brie. Your message will be an inspiration to so many other exJWs out there. When I watched your video and then read all the lovely comments written at the end of the Independent newspaper and all the other sites it was on it made me realise how much love there is in the world for people who have gone through what we went through. Thank you for being so brave for speaking up! x
Reply
Cedars says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:04 pm
You’re a hero Brie!
I’m glad you’ve seen this article. It’s important you understand the magnitude of what you’ve accomplished, and how much we all appreciate your bravery. I’m proud that this website has been helpful for you! :)
Reply
Mama Joy says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:13 pm
Bravo! I’m so proud of you for speaking out and I know God is proud of you too! They are wolves in sheeps clothing and you no longer have the wool pulled over your eyes! Celebrate today and every day you are free!
Reply
Darlene Alexander says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:36 pm
I admire your bravery, Brie! I know how hard it must of been to get up there and speak about such personal subjects, but what a wonderful job you did! The more we can expose JWs as the dangerous cult they are, the more people we can keep from being mislead by them – and hope we can help to pull people out as well. We are so proud of you!
Reply
JJ says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:43 pm
Brie, you’re awesome!
I only wish that I had figured out this cult when I was your age!
Reply
David says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:05 am
Brie thank you soo much for having the courage and taking the time to put together such an honest, open speech. This video has touch soo many people already and will be a testament to the damage the Jehovah’s Witnesses have and continue to do. I wish you the best in life!
Reply
Sam says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:58 am
Brie,
Your presentation was beautiful and courageous.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:50 pm
Congratulations, Brie!
Your honest and compassionate speech has touched many hearts, including mine.
I hope your Graduation Day is wonderful and I wish you all the luck in the world in your studies at University!
Welcome to your freedom to choose. It’s a wild ride but a satisfying one.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Rainbow says:
May 28, 2015 at 1:00 am
You go girl!
Want to really hit the media? Send your video to the Ellen Degeneres Show. She often features students.
Thank you for you courage Brie! You are loved.
Reply
M. says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:38 pm
Well done brave lady!
One person can make difference!
Reply
anonymous says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:45 pm
Brie’s video was posted just 4 days ago and it’s now well over 400,000 views. I don’t think the Society can sweep this one under the rug and everything she said in that video can be backed up in Watchtower publications. There is no way the Society can say that she’s an apostate “liar”. It is too bad she only had 15 minutes because she didn’t touch on the 2 witness rule for child abuse and she didn’t touch on blood but what she packed into that 15 minutes knocked the ball out of the park!!!
Reply
JJ says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Yup, hundreds of thousands of views for Brie’s video. This is the Watchtower Society’s worst nightmare-come-true! How can the WT say that a young girl is an ‘apostate’?!? How can they claim that this young girl doesn’t know what she is talking about when these are her own experiences?!?
Oh boy, I bet there will be heated, round table discussions on damage control at Watchtower headquarters.
It will be interesting to see what happens now.
Reply
William Niles says:
May 26, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Well done Brie, you have stood bravely. The average JW will look at your video that has been posted on the medial and label you as a liar/slanderer, etc.. Anytime, ANYTHING bad is said about JWs then to them it’s all nothing but lies..but if that same media ramps/raves about JWs then they have no problem plastering it all over jw.org. What they deem as truth is only when it suits THEIR purpose. Your comments hit the nail on the head and you speak absolute truth and JWs are simply living in denial. In their own Elder’s manual, it says clearly that if Elders discover that a husband committed adultery and learn that he lied about the extent of his adultery, they have been instructed NOT to tell his wife about it and will simply say, “we encourage you to talk with your husband”. So in a case where the woman decides to forgive him and sleeps with him, but then afterwards learns that he lied about the extent of his adultery; from that point on she can’t divorce him without being disfellowshipped because when she resumed relations with him she technically forgave him…the problem is that the Elders KNOWINGLY withheld vital information from her that would have helped her to make a decision in the first place! In the case that the woman commits adultery, he CAN sit in on her committee, but they WON’T allow her to sit in on his judicial committee. There are well-documented cases where the Elders knew that a man had molested a child…but did NOT tell his wife that her own husband molested a child.
If you are a JW–you will label this brave young woman as someone who is attacking you, slandering you, etc.. There is simply TOO MUCH irrefutable proof that what Bree says is true…and you’re own Bible clearly says that it only takes 2-3 witness to establish the matter as truth. There are literally THOUSANDS of witnesses to establish these matters as truth….WAKE UP PEOPLE.
Reply
William Niles says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:03 pm
Sorry, bad typing. I meant to say that anytime the very same media who they say slanders them/lies about them publishes anything good about them, then all of the sudden they have no problem posting it all over jw.org, sharing the experience in assemblies, etc.. It’s only what THEY establish as truth and only what they want people to hear.
Reply
Designer Stubble says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:08 pm
Thanks Brie – You are our Hero. Loved your video and your letter at the friendly atheist. Your parents can be very proud of you. Happy to read you will be off to University.
John – Good to write up on this. Positive blog.
It will take time, but the WTBTS cannot withstand the power that Internet and Social Media gives to our voices.
Reply
Innocent Son says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:35 pm
Brie, I applaud your bravery, I hope that this inspires many other to come forward and tell the truth about the Org. Because of the Internet and websites like this many others will be able to see behind the shadows and break free….Deep respect and much love to you and your family.
Reply
Grace says:
May 26, 2015 at 2:48 pm
@Brie,
Bravo, you have pressed the start button, the missing link that will get to the masses. Why? Because many other religions will have to stand up & look at the way that they are treating their followers as well. I have a young friend who is your age going through something similar (but not as cruel) with her religion which is orthodox.
You give me hope that when I am no longer here, your generation will be able to grow up from the stifleness of archaic, patriarchal religions.
Reply
Ted says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:05 pm
I listened to Brie’s video a number of times, and was very
proud of her. At certain points she had to fight back tears
but continued on to give a clear, factual and honest
exposition of a hierarchical and sometimes cruel “Religion”?
Women at the very bottom and the GB at the top, who
countenance no dissent.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:36 pm
@Brie.THIS IS A BRILLIANT SPEECH Highlighting the REAL TRUTH what goes on in this Religion with WOMEN Treated like Second Class Citizens & Yes the LOVE is CONDITIONAL!!!
This video by Brie is a Brilliant Answer to Andrew who commented on the post before this one that his 4 children were well adjusted kids. Well if anyone would like to read my response to his comments,please feel free to look at my reply & I am open to be corrected.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 26, 2015 at 3:43 pm
@ William Niles . REALLY ENJOYED Your COMMENT about how the Elders Manuel’Shepherd the Flock’ TREAT WOMEN as THIRD RATE CITIZENS ‘ !! IT IS DISGUSTING & OUTRAGEOUS The way WOMEN are treated Except when the GB want them to be Pioneers so the women can peddle the Literature!!
Reply
William Niles says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:20 am
@ Pickled brain: It’s those kinds of things that WT doesn’t want young women, like Brie, to know about. I openly showed my own wife those points in the Elders Manual…she simply couldn’t not believe what she was reading. I couldn’t either and I had to read it 2-3 times to let it sink in. Or, how about letting an appointed Elder/M.S. serve in the congregation…even if after he confesses to have committed a disfellowshipping offense years before and not even lift a single finger against him? But yet, with innocent women like Brie, the won’t hesitate to disfellowship, label them Apostate., etc? If you read the Elder’s manual regarding those points I mention, you’ll see that there’s not ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE quoted to justify their reasoning on those particular points…the only thing I can think of that justifies it is immoral men in Brooklyn who are THEMSELVES guilty of the very things that they wrote about and refused to confess them to anyone. And they will label anyone, like Brie, as a liar/slanderer who exposes the hypocrisy. There’s a reason why they tell JWs not to listen to folks like Brie…for fear of discovering the REAL truth.
Reply
Bryan linkoski says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:06 pm
How fitting that “the redemption song” by Bob Marley came on just as I was reading this. It’s a blessing when one is released from mental slavery from such a stifling existence. It may be that the order or there disorder is rapidly changing. Knowledge is power and it takes great courage to do whT this young lady did.
Reply
Michael says:
May 26, 2015 at 4:32 pm
You have my deepest respect Brie.Thank you for you courage.Your video brought tears to me and my wife.We have experience the loss of our families and 2 of our children.I shared the video on my Facebook page.We keep hoping things will change.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 26, 2015 at 5:21 pm
If anybody who is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses does not believe that the Watchtower teaches that it is considered fornication if a girl or woman doesn’t defend herself to the death if they were raped and survived and then if they do survive being raped, they would be considered as having committed fornication unless they can prove to a committee of 3 men that they screamed and fought against the rape and didn’t invite the rape by her dress and being alone in dangerous areas, this is directly from the Watchtower magazine, 1968 June 1st article under the title of “The Christian’s View of Self-Defense”. This religion is not only a dangerous religion to belong to because of the blood issue and having to die rather than allow being to be raped, but it is very dangerous to married women because women can not leave an abusive husband and remarry (as Brie brought out in her wonderful speech) and if they do remarry, they will be disfellowshipped for adultery, making it almost impossible to get away from an abusive husband.
Women in the Witness religion are 2nd class citizens in every way possible as Brie brought out so amazingly in her speech.
This is from the 1968 Watchtower on pages 347-348
under the subheading: Attempted rape.
“If you are a Christian woman, what should you do if, in spite of all precautions, you are set upon by a rapist? If you cannot deter him by reasoning, or by calling on the name of Jehovah, then what? As a Christian you are under obligation to resist. This resistance includes screaming and creating as much disturbance as possible to try and frighten off the attacker and attract help. If the attack continues and you cannot break free to flee, then you would be justified even to inflict damage on your assailant if necessary. Resistance is imperative, because the rapist is after, not just money, but your virtue. An issue of integrity to Jehovah’s laws is involved here. So by no means would it be proper quietly to submit to rape, as that would be consenting to fornication. – 1 Thess. 4:3
The principle is like that set out at Deuteronomy chapter 22. There it states: “In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, you must also bring both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die.” Why would the girl have died under that Law covenant? The scripture continues: “The girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city.” If she did not make the effort to scream, she was viewed as consenting to fornication. But if the woman screamed and resisted and nonetheless was overpowered, then she was not guilty of complicity: “The girl screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.” Deut. 22:23-27.
Would it be different if the man had a weapon and threatened to kill you if you did not submit? No, the Scriptures plainly state that Christians are under obligation to “flee from fornication.” (1 Cor. 6:18) It is true that you face the possibility of death in this case. But you have no guarantee that if you meekly submit, your assailant will not kill you anyhow to avoid identification.”
Reply
Mike dennis says:
May 26, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Great speech. Well written and well thought out. It started out very factual, good background. It showed sincerity and genuine concern. My best wish is that my grown sons wake up and someday see the org as it really is. This effort by Brie was from the heart. If it wakes just one person up, it’s worth all her distress in making this.
I know that Brie may not be fully prepared to live her new life apart from WT and old ‘ friends ‘, but I sure wish her the best. Brave girl will become a great woman. Thank you, aloha
Reply
Ken says:
May 26, 2015 at 8:02 pm
“The final straw came during in 9th grade when one of my friends and I went to the beach. I had been texting a boy from another JW congregation and sent him a picture of us on the beach… which meant we were in bikinis. Unfortunately, his mother went through his phone and came across our “horrible” photo. It led to Church elders coming over to my house to counsel me.
They told me I was guilty of making him masturbate. They even made me admit I got him to do it. That was never my intention, obviously, but having that conversation with Church leaders may be the most embarrassing moment of my life. I don’t think my face has ever turned so red. They made me feel dirty for enjoying my time at the beach and chatting with a friend — my other picked up on that, too, and couldn’t believe I was in trouble with the congregation for the crime of wearing a bathing suit.
After that, I was done. I no longer wanted to identify as a Jehovah’s Witness.”
I sorry to be critical but Brie were embarrassed when you said that quoted above to your classmates? I think although the Elders were stupid to counsel you over the bikini photo which in this day and age is called sexting , it may have looked innocent , but the dummy elders it was serious enough for them jump in . The boy’s mother in the logical sense should have talked to your mother about it . Never involve the elders in anything .
I was DF because I and my parents faded out of the sect after my poor father had a blood transfusion . I was lucky that I never was baptized as a teen , my parents did . It amazes me that petty things are judged as “sins” while molestation is swept under the rug in this sect these days . However I did share many things with you as I grew up ,with such as isolation that I still fight today.
Reply
Shanti says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:03 pm
Sending a picture of friends in bathing suits at the beach is not “sexting”.
Reply
Brent says:
May 26, 2015 at 11:22 pm
One thing is for sure, the theocratic ministry school did a great job teaching this brave young woman how to speak in public. Great to see she is putting it to good use as well. Good on you girl.
Reply
life's about choices says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:41 am
brought a tear to my eye..Thank you brie…We have 2 older kids than you…fortunately they laugh now and we’re very close with some great friends….you will be ok…..go enjoy life from this day on..xx
Reply
Bad Penny says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:52 am
Dear Brie –
YOU ARE AMAZING! You have been so brave!
We all love you so much for what you have done.
I’m so glad that you are in touch with JW Survey so that you can find out all TTATT, but mostly that we are all cheering you on.
Go forward now with your young life, look to the future, try not to look behind because the past is painful, as we have all discovered.
I have often thought, how can one individual make a difference to how people view this religion?
Girl, you just did it!
Reply
Bad Penny says:
May 27, 2015 at 2:33 am
BRIE –
Just read your ‘Friendly atheists’ article.
You will probably be summoned to a judicial hearing. You don’t have to suffer the indignity! Just tell them you no longer want to be under the authority of men in suits. If you disassociate yourself it will possibly take a week before they announce it, which may give you the time to graduate before the rest of your family shun you.
When I and my husband became witnesses, we never realised that higher education was a no no! We found out when our son went to university. He was advised by a C.O. to give up his course and reach out for ‘spiritual’ goals. Thankfully he resisted the advice, and with our full backing, went on to gain a first at Uni. He now has a great job and a nice car, all he wants now is a great lady to share his life – he never could find one in the congregation. Pity he didn’t meet you!
All of us have now left the stranglehold of JW dom.
So, be strong, do well in your career, I’m sure that you will succeed.
Reply
Andrea says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:12 am
Brie is a wonderful inspiration of courage and maturity in the way she approached her subject. I can say that I wasn’t that mature even at college-going age, nor as brave to openly talk about my upbringing or religion even with good friends outside the org. I hope she’ll open up the eyes of many who may be sticking their head in the sand and hoping that all the truthful and bad publicity about the JWs will go away.
I’d like to however refute @Brent’s well-meant comment that she has somehow become a good public speaker thanks to the “Theocratic Ministry School”. It *may* have helped, however, it’s more likely that it was thanks to a good education and how own talent and/or hard work. Attributing this to a witness education only takes away from Brie’s well-earned praise.
If there is any request to her about “judicial” hearings or committees, I would not be recommending that she disassociate herself or give them any answers, unless she wishes to do so herself. Brie has obviously managed to think for herself and doesn’t need a group of religious bullies (some elders) to tell her what to do or hopefully feel any need to play up to them, do their bidding or reply to them in any way. As has been pointed out on Cedar’s and jwfacts websites, doing so because they tell you too only gives them more power over you. There’s no need to play along.
Reply
alanv says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:39 am
I will be watching closely the number of views this video has. Today (wednesday 27th May) it is up to 529000. Truly amazing and great that a young person is able to help so many others see the bad side to this cult
Reply
Ted says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:18 am
Brie was chastised by elders for sending beach photo
of herself and friend in bikini’s to a JW, boy acquaintance.
Had Brie been a well known celebrity, no action would have
been taken. The tennis sisters, who publicly declare they are
JWs, both have posed nude for a well known magazine.
Has anyone heard of them being reprimanded ?
Not being baptised is not a get out, as such ones can be
“disassociated” for “Unchristian” conduct.
So why is the org, willing to drop its own immutable laws
where celebrities are concerned ? They don’t want their
cruel practices of disfellowshipping and shunning exposed.
Brie wonders whether she, will be disfellowshipped, in view
of the publicity her exposition has caused?
Somehow I think not !
Reply
alan says:
May 27, 2015 at 5:32 am
How true is everything that Brie says. I came into the “Truth” in 1969 aged 18 and I introduced my future wife into it and we were married in 1972. We have 4 children. My oldest girl [born 1972] was raped just after she turned 16. Someone we knew [not a JW] asked if she could babysit his children while he took his wife to the hospital. She didn’t want to do it but I [stupidly] persuaded her and as a result she was raped that evening by him. We went to the police and also the Elders. Their only concern was had she resisted and screamed. She said that it was impossible to scream or resist as he was stronger than she was and also because he had a knife and also his hands were around her throat. I was informed that seeing that she was an unbaptized publisher, I had to bear the guilt and that a committee would decide if I was guilty of aiding and abetting the rape as I had allowed her to babysit. They also informed me that I could possibly be disfellowshipped as by going to the police, I had brought the name of Jehovah and his organisation into disrepute.
My immediate reaction was to protest and remind them that the rape had already been reported in the newspapers and that I might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb and that I would inform the reporter that I was being thrown out of the “religion” and explain why. Needless to say that the Elders climbed down but I was removed from all responsibility in the KH and a talk was given to the congregation stressing that worldly authorities have no part to play in Jehovah’s organisation. Did this put me off? No it did not I am sad to say.
We moved congregations but it was no better. My children were considered a danger to the others, so much so that my second child [a daughter] became so rebellious over the way we were being treated that she became hostile to the organisation. She was 13 yrs old. The Elders advised me to “get rid” of her as she was a danger to my other children so I telephoned the local authorities and had her placed into a children’s home. I did all of this as I truly believed that it was what Jehovah wanted. Now I realise what a clutz I was.
In 1991 my wife and I sat down with the other 3 children and explained that we were leaving the organisation. We already knew that the 3rd child had no interest in the “Truth” but we were concerned about my son who was only 10 at the time. We explained that we would allow him to go to the KH and go on field service if he so wished to do as we would find someone to take him. He thought for a moment and his reply was “If I leave with you, does that mean that I can have Birthday and Christmas presents?” I said, if that’s what you want. He then replied “good as I know what I want for my first birthday present.” The rest is history apart from that my daughter who was raped had no counselling as the Elders would not allow it and now lives in the USA [I am in the UK] and refuses to have any contact with me. She tells everyone that I am dead and in her eyes I am. I have to accept that and do so but I know that the trauma she went through is what makes he r think that.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
May 27, 2015 at 1:54 pm
Sir,
Whatever happened to the poor child you put into care? Is she ok?
You have my sympathy, sir. As do your family.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Charles Huff says:
May 27, 2015 at 6:21 am
I’m proud of Brie for making a stand, Brie, if you’re reading this, way to go my friend.
What Brie has done is show others that making a stand can change things and shown us that we can stand on our own.
After receiving over 400k hits on her video, we now know that interest is in the subject and we can expose the JWs like no time ever before. If enough people make a stand, then it may reverse disfellowship the JWs and can possibly lead to their downfall.
Reply
David says:
May 27, 2015 at 7:33 am
Well done Brie! You have been very brave and effective in exposing the shameful bully character of jw.org
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:32 am
MOST JWs especially Young ones are TRAPPED in the Organisation because of the Encouragement to get BAPTISED at 11,12,13 or younger & then FRIGHTENED of LOSING FAMILY & FRIENDS if they ASK GENUINE Questions which a PRE- TEEN getting Baptised would never have thought of!!
SO WELL DONE BRIE for INSPIRING many Young JWs to Have the COURAGE to Just HONESTLY QUESTION Their BELIEFS!!! & Be REALLY AWARE of JW TRUE BEGINNINGs & HISTORY!
If WE CAN STARVE the ORGANISATION of YOUNG BLOOD?? ( I Don’t Know if that’s the Appropriate Word) Then the Organisation will SLOWLY DIE with only the OLD & DIEHARDS Remaining!!
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:40 am
Does anyone have a link download the latest Elder Book? Shepherd the Flock, I think…KS 12 or 16 is it?
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:30 am
Nevermind, found it on JW leaks.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:15 am
Brie, you are truly remarkable.
When I was a JW at your age (over 30 years ago), I did not have the self-awareness, intellectual integrity, and courage to do what you did. For that, I am truly ashamed. I hope others take up your example. Nicely done.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:32 am
Strong–I don’t think you should feel shame. Indoctrination isn’t something we can always avoid, especially for those born into it. And, even when doubts are there in a young person, the consequences you were trained to avoid are terrifying for youths and often prevent rebellion.
Reply
Cedars says:
May 27, 2015 at 11:04 am
I’ve updated the numbers cited in the article to reflect the fact that Brie’s video is now comfortably past the half-million threshold.
Amazing!
Reply
Elka Tire says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:04 pm
Cedar, if I send you the Spanish translation for the video, could you add it?
Thanks.
El Kato
Reply
Cedars says:
May 27, 2015 at 2:16 pm
Yes :)
Reply
M. says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:08 pm
All together we are strong. This should continue!
Reply
Elka Tire says:
May 27, 2015 at 12:04 pm
I meant the spanish subtitles!
Reply
brandnew says:
May 27, 2015 at 3:23 pm
New word : BRIE BRAVE.
I hope to be more ” BRIE BRAVE” in the following years to come.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
May 27, 2015 at 4:29 pm
Brie > Governing Body
BRIE 2016!
Thank you very much, Brie, for having the courage to stand up and speak the truth about what goes on in this highly secretive religion.
Reply
minion says:
May 27, 2015 at 9:00 pm
Brie, well done faithful mate!
Talk about doubling your talents and minas, well done faithful mate!
This must be Jehovah’s blessing and hand moving the view counter.
Brie, I truly believe most of us have contributed to the effect of moving the view counter by creative means. That being said, you just don’t know how moved and touched I have been. I may have a larger Business network than most, and they got a copy of your video, and I have also ask to “pass it forward”. . . . Together we can move mountains.
You never know who may be dropping by or calling you. You never know.
I predict within 8 hours from now you will peak at 600,000.
Currently your at 560,655
Your average per 24 hour movement is 100,000 views.
This might be the beginning – for the right cause.
Keep strong, stay focus, seek peace, keep hope alive and courage is the conquest of fear!
and Brie, Congrats Senior 2015 !!
.
Reply
Worthy says:
May 27, 2015 at 10:56 pm
Brie, I’m so glad you made that decision to speak up against the treatment of women and children in the Org.
You are making a huge difference and educating so many as to the realities of what really goes on behind those plastered smiles they see at their front doors holding the watchtower and awake.
I hope this is just the beginning to what we will hear from you. You have a bright future ahead of you and I truly hope for your sake when you walk the stage you have all your loved ones cheering you on. If not, just remember you have all of us cheering you on in spirit!! Congratulations, and welcome to your ” new normal “
Reply
Everyday Explorer says:
May 28, 2015 at 6:22 am
Well done to Brie, a remarkable and inspirational activist! Our voices are growing and reaching more and more people, fellow consciousness-raisers. How liberating to see TTATT (the truth about the ‘Truth’) being exposed time and time again. Let’s all carry on keeping up the pressure in our individual ways. Day by day, we’re getting there!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:23 am
@Brie . ABSOLUTELY STUNNING. You YOUNG LADY Have Eloquently & ACCURATELY have Stated the REAL TRUTH what it is like for POOR WOMEN in this CRUEL ORGANISATION!!
I watched it for a Second Time your Speech!!
ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!!
YOU WILL WAKE UP MANY,MANY YOUNGSTERS & WOMEN of All Ages to Finally make a Stand & NOT PUT UP with THIS SUBJUGATION of Women RULED & DICTATED to by 7 ARROGANT MEN in NEW YORK!!’
RISE UP SISTERS & BE BOLD & Follow the EXAMPLE of BRIE!!!
Reply
Kat says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:04 am
Thank you Brie, you really held your own on such an emotional issue, you presented your speech with control, you did not sound hateful or bitter something that could turn many of, but rather showed class and intelligence, you spoke also from your heart and showed a loving caring concern for JW. Thank you so much, I hope all goes well for you with your family before your day. x
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:27 am
@Brie . I Forgot to Add that WITHOUT WOMEN the JW Organisation WOULD CRUMBLE OVERNIGHT!!
Because the VAST Number of PIONEERS are SISTERS who conduct Bible Studies & Also Have a Great Influence on their Children as they grow up to baptism!!
Reply
David says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:22 am
This is soo very true. My biggest influences in the borg were women who were long time pioneers. They would have been wonderful Elders, CO’s etc. Perhaps there would have been better emphasis placed on caring for young people had they allowed women to serve in equal capacity as men do. Which by the way is how the scripture describes how Holy Spirit was poured out in the first century. Somehow God’s Spirit was mistakenly given in equal measure to women. Silly Holy Spirit, don’t you know that you are going against the Governing Body! /endrant.
Reply
Kat says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:42 am
I agree Pickled, the vast amount of work in the ministry is done by women, the brothers say its because men have to work and provide for families or have many more responsibilities in the congregation, but there are many more women JW than males, and for many single women they have to provide for themselves, and in some cases women without husbands with children have to provide for them as well as being the spiritual head, they have to do both the male and female work in the family.
There are more women in the org than men always been that way unless JW are having more male children than female then that takes decades to catch up.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 8:07 am
Brie gave 3 women’s experiences that she knows of how women are subjugated in the Watchtower and abused. In the 1972 Watchtower January 1st article page 31 on questions from the readers, the question was: “Do homosexual acts on the part of a married person constitute a Scriptural ground for divorce, freeing the innocent mate to remarry?”
The final answer to that question was no and this is the Watchtower’s answer why it is that the innocent mate is not fee to remarry: “While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken. It is broken only by acts that make an individual “one flesh” with a person of the opposite sex other than his or her legal marriage mate.” (What it was saying here is that since a child couldn’t be produced this way, then it wasn’t fornication and grounds for a scriptural divorce.)
This same policy that was discussed there of the Watchtower organization goes back to at least the 1950’s so it had been over at least 20 years that if a woman either caught her husband having sex with another man or animal, that she was not free to remarry scripturally as the man had not broken the marriage bond.
There were women who this had happened to up until the year of 1972 at least and so while they could leave their husbands, they were not free to remarry or else they would have been disfellowshipped and shunned.
This was cruel treatment for finding out that their husbands had had sex with animals or another man. If the husband had had sex with another woman, then the wife was free to remarry without getting disfellowshipped.
Just as Brie brought out in her speech, when a person finds themselves in a situation like that or any other situation like that, they will get absolutely no help from the Organization or the congregation and are left to pick up the pieces by themselves. Does this sound reasonable in any way? Many women weren’t aware that the Society could do this to a woman until they saw that question from the readers in that 1972 Watchtower.
Ray Franz was on the Governing Body at the time and even though he went along with that first ruling in the January Watchtower, it didn’t seem right to him and he started researching the topic and by the end of the year, his uncle, who was the president of the Society at the time, agreed with him that changed it’s view and decided that yes, if a person found their mate having sex with another of the same sex or an animal, that it would be pornea and grounds for a scriptural divorce as brought out in the December 15, 1972 Watchtower page 767. The Governing Body disfellowshipped Ray Franz but if it hadn’t been for him being on the Governing Body at the time, who knows? They might still teach such a backward and stupid doctrine.
Ask yourself this question. How could God be directing the Watchtower organization if during all those years, the Watchtower was condemning the innocent mate to shunning if they had divorced their husband and remarried? Was the Society teaching lies during all that time? Why would God be telling the Society lies and forcing it’s followers to follow those lies and if not be disfellowshipped and shunned?
Ask yourself this question. How would you know when it’s a lie or when it’s the truth then? At what point or year, can you decide which is the truth or a lie since during all those years, the Society either wasn’t listening to Jehovah or Jehovah wasn’t talking through them?
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 8:32 am
@Anonymous. VERY ,VERY WELL PUT your Argumentation back in 1972 was Farcical on why Women couldn’t scripturally divorce if they found their husband having SEX with Another MAN or TABITHA the CAT or … ROVER the DOG !! I mean if the GB are SPIRIT DIRECTED then My NAME is Babylon the Great ??? MUST BE FUN RIDING the ‘WILD BEAST’!!!
Reply
Exhausted says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:09 am
At the time that the Society was condoning those things
Would it not hold true that if a woman had her tubes
Tied or a hysterectomy she would have been absolved
Of a fornication committee had she erred sexually???
After all, she could not reproduce could she? The answer
Is obvious since women were subjugated to the lowest
Form of creature in the eyes of those men.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:29 am
@Exhausted, in the 1975 Watchtower pages 158-160 a woman couldn’t get a hysterectomy unless she had had numerous c-sections and so could die if she got pregnant again and men couldn’t be sterilized either unless their wife’s health was in serious danger of getting pregnant again. If either of them got sterilized for any other reason, the man would lose his privileges in the congregation.
By, 1985, the Society said it was up to the couple to use sterilization as a means of birth control (because from 1975-1985 some men’s sterilizations could be reversed) but they couldn’t talk about it to anybody else in the congregation so that others in the congregation wouldn’t “lose respect” for them (May 1, 1985 Watchtower page 31)
Here is one more case where the Society feels they have a right to stick their noses into women’s personal business. The Society has always told women they are allowed to take birth control pills but if they wanted a hysterectomy, the woman had to answer to the Society for it and if they had a hysterectomy, the woman had to convince the elders that if she got pregnant again that it would kill her.
Reply
JJ says:
May 28, 2015 at 7:07 pm
I always wondered, “Why would the GB, the elders or any other Jehovah’s Witness care if you used birth control, if you got divorced or what kind of sex you had and with whom?!?”
I mean really, why go through all the trouble to think about it, investigate and then chastise someone??? Who could be bothered???
Is it the sense of power that makes these small men worry so much about what you do when you are naked? Do they really feel that God cares about this or that?
Even though I really wanted to ‘reach out’ and help, and I enjoyed giving talks, I never wanted to hear about someone’s private lives especially if there were matters that were sensitive or embarrassing. (I would have told anyone who was having weird sex to say some Hail Mary’s and Our Fathers)
Reply
airborne says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:37 am
What a powerful video. Amazing the courage she has at such a young age.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:47 am
@Kat. YOU Are SO RIGHT! Women are Hit with a Double Whammy!! They are in many instances are the MAIN BREADWINNERS & DO the MAJORITY of the Preaching Work as there are SO MANY Broken Homes in the Truth nowadays .Its CRAZY how Many Stepfamilies there are & two married couples in our congregation in their 60s have separated & living in separate accommodation but still in the same congregation & both still answering in the Watchtower & in the field ministry!!
Reply
danman says:
May 28, 2015 at 11:51 am
What struck me was the respect that Brie’s fellow students paid her while delivering her speech. There was not any snickering, or rudeness displayed.
Obviously Brie had the respect of her peers prior to delivering this awesome expose! You are truly an ‘honor’ student. Thanks for the effort and personal sacrifice in putting yourself on the line. Courage is the proper word.
Reply
Rosie says:
May 28, 2015 at 12:20 pm
Brie, you are to be applauded. You delivered a very heartfelt speech. It must have taken great strength to speak about something so personal.
It was years after I left the Org, before I could even mention the words “Jehovah’s Witness” without feeling complete shame and humiliation, such was the stigma I felt at having been a JW.
I really empathise with you over your experience with the Elders after the beach photo. They are so quick to turn even the most innocent thing into something dirty and sex related. (I think it only reflects what is in their own hearts and minds).
On one occasion as a 16yr old at a convention I was seen talking to a young single brother from a different congregation. It was all very innocent, if I recall correctly, I think we were actually discussing our favourite Bryan Adams song!! (No doubt discussing worldly music was a sin in itself; they weren’t so liberal in my day). But I was swooped upon; dragged away to my embarrassment and treated as though I had been up to all sorts of shenanigans with him, and “my behaviour” then got brought up at a later Elders meeting. Very humiliating, and damaging for a young girl! Of course, nothing was said to the young brother – I was the one made out to be the “Temptress!”
By the way, I passed your video to a friend of mine who has no JW background. She too was very moved by it and told me that she thought you came across as a lovely girl and that you had delivered a powerful message.
Reply
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
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Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Newer Comments →
Charles Costante says:
May 28, 2015 at 2:56 pm
“On one occasion as a 16yr old at a convention I was seen talking to a young single brother from a different congregation. ……….. But I was swooped upon; dragged away to my embarrassment and treated as though I had been up to all sorts of shenanigans with him, ……”
Rosie, you sound as though you’ve been through the mill with that stupid cult. Unfortunately, they can’t have a life and have nothing better to do than speculate about other people’s. I remember at one District convention in the seventies I was asked by my sister if I would look after my young nephew for a while during one of the breaks (something had come up which she needed to attend to) so I took him by the hand and we went for a walk. Along the way I bumped into a sister from my congregation and we started chatting. She then took my nephew’s other hand and we continued walking. Well, within a couple of hours the JW grapevine had both of us engaged and there was speculation about when we would marry. I find it amusing now, but was quite annoyed at the time.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 28, 2015 at 4:39 pm
There is a sister and brother in my congregation that love the elders and make very moving comments at meetings (when I attended) about what a wonderful job the elders do etc. and how fortunate our congregation is to have such “loving” brothers as our elders. What those people don’t know is that when their son was about 16 years old, he liked a young girl from a neighboring congregation and at one of our circuit assemblies, one of the brothers from the young girl’s kingdom hall, was telling my husband and me how the brothers from the girl’s kingdom hall were all taking turns following the young man around, making sure that he didn’t grab that girl and rape her in the bushes during the lunch breaks.
If the brother and sister (the mom and dad) in my old congregation had any idea that those men were following their son around like that, thinking he was going to rape that girl, I wonder if their comments about how “loving” the elders would be then?
If I ever get called before a committee, that is one of the things that I will tell the elders that I am going to do is to tell that sister and her husband about what happened at that assembly concerning their 16 year old boy and we will see just how long they would stay in this “wonderful and loving” religion then.
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
May 28, 2015 at 10:10 pm
Brie : I was emotionally involved and cried when you cried during the video . I was raised as a witness, then my family stopped attending when I was ten, but a lot of the damage had been done. My mother was murdered by her second husband in the late 80s. So needless to say, I had questions. I progressed and later served in the circuit work with my spouse.
Even fiber of my body tells me this religion is wrong and I can’t see any “good God” backing it. Your testimony of the women added more reason for me to feel the way I do… Thanks so much for your courage and honesty!
Reply
Willows says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:48 am
It just go’s to show there is a sense of justice in all persons young and old. It can not be covered over, put under the carpet, it will come to the surface and be expressed. What Brie has related is true and others have been raped and gone to elders for help only to be accused of shocking things. I remember one circuit overseer saying some of these elders would not be appointed in other congregations, so the standards are all over the place. When a person comes for help, that is what they should get. Be comforted and reassured.
The lack of follow up to help shows a lack of love and concern, then to call people names show they are not following Christ. There is a saying the fish stinks from the head down. Freedom from oppression is calling out loud and clear. It is true what go’s around comes around. With the judgement they give, it will be given to them.
Reply
Ted says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:37 am
@anonymous, Your account of the brother being followed
by elders, to check on his actions, is like the Gospel narrative
at Mark 3: 1-6. There the Pharisees followed Jesus closely
to see if he would break the Sabbath Law.
I don’t think Jesus would qualify as an elder today. He applied
the Law with “Equity” ( fairness ) and humanity, not rigidly
I know that many elders are reasonable and have good qualities
but they are constrained by the rule book, and this can make them
hard and unyielding.
As Brie rightly says this is a “Hierarchy”. At the top are men who
act like the Pharisees, stifling the individual conscience and pressing
elders, and everyone else , into the same inflexible pattern.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:01 am
Ted, I think there are lots and lots of really good elders who don’t act like pharisees and really love the congregation and wouldn’t follow young ones around and treat them like criminals when they haven’t even done anything wrong but there are also a lot who would follow a young one around like those elders were doing to that young fellow from my congregation.
I know the reason they didn’t “trust” that young man is because he wasn’t real regular out in service or meetings and he was quiet.
Once when my son was about 10 or 11, he was visiting at a friend’s house who was a Witness and his friend from the Hall lived right down the street from us. My son and his friend who was about a year older were talking about visiting another young boy from the Kingdom Hall and his friend’s mom was in earshot of them talking and the mother of my son’s friend (a Witness also) told her son that she didn’t want him to go and visit that other kid because the other kid wasn’t baptized and so wasn’t “good association”.
My son then got the impression then that since he wasn’t baptized yet, that then in order to be considered “good association” that he also must get baptized because he got the impression loud and clear from his friend’s mother that he also must not be considered “good association” since he wasn’t baptized. So then my son decided to get baptized and went through the questions with the elders. At the time, the elders said he wasn’t ready but by the next assembly they did let him get baptized.
It isn’t just the elders who can be judgmental and Pharisaical. The Watchtower organization taught us all to be judgmental and Pharisaical. We were taught that our kids were not to associate with anybody who didn’t go to meetings regularly and answer at the meetings and go in service every week and talk about how they wanted to pioneer when they got of school and on and on.
If a kid didn’t look up the scriptures at the meetings and have them written down in the margins it would show that that kid just wasn’t good enough for our kids to associate with and could drag our kid down “spiritually” and so to make sure our kids were good “association”, we had to make sure that our kids answered at the meetings and underlined their Watchtowers in bright markers to make sure everyone around could see how well our kids did their lessons and we had to make sure that our kids talked about how much they wanted to pioneer etc. and how disgusting it was to even to consider going to college. We had to make sure that our kids took notes at assemblies and we had to make dam sure that our kids sat quietly at the meetings when they were little and to make sure that we were really good examples, we’d beat the crap out of our kids in the back of the hall in the bathroom so everyone could hear them scream. We wanted our kids to be accepted and have friends at the Hall so that is what we did so they would have friends at the Kingdom Hall because we knew they weren’t allowed to have any friends who weren’t Witnesses and besides we thought that if we “inculcated” the “truth” into them that it would save them through Armageddon. All that was so drummed into us from the Society’s literature that we were all turned into Pharisees. The Society wants all of the Witnesses to be “proud” to be Witnesses and most are very proud (not in a good way). That is how we were trained by the Organization to be as parents to our kids. Is it any wonder that hardly any of those kids want anything to do with the “truth” when they grow up?
The last I looked, I think Brie’s video will reach the 600,000 mark by the end of the day. She has over 5,000 likes and only 287 dislikes.
All those Witnesses who clicked dislike would like to think that those kinds of elders that Brie talked about would be in other congregations and not their own but if they ever got molested and raped like those sisters she talked about, then and only then would they understand all the 5,000 likes because what she described happening to those sisters is Watchtower policy and those elders were following orders from the Society.
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sirius says:
May 30, 2015 at 5:48 am
Sure looks and reads like how muslims operate, through non-assimilation. Not to be governed or tainted by non-believers (Jews, Christians, Kafiers, Infidels etc.). Hard to believe in today’s enlightenment we are to tolerate the intolerant yet under a faith… wholesale practiced intolerance by JWs and muslims. So much for simple human rights, having an equality of respect & dignity.
Brie, an excellent presentation!
dogstar
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danman says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:07 am
There was a brief moment in Watchtower history that came when Ray Franz tried to steer the governing body toward ‘freedom of conscience’. I remember articles in the Watchtower about allowing each other the freedom to decide, based upon ‘Christian principles’.
It was like a breath of fresh air wafting through halls of strict enforced ‘pharisaical’ policies and rules. Of course as soon as Bethel heavies began to see the self study of the bible, independent actions, they quickly reigned back ‘personal conscience’ for even more thorough, trite rules and policies via secret elder manuals and the like.
An opportunity to become an organization of true Christian freedom, lost forever, because a few wise men read and truly understood what Jesus was teaching. Protecting power and influence was and is at the base root of the Watchtower structure.
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 8:40 am
@Anonymous & @ Danman BOTH of your COMMENTS show ALL the HALLMARKS of a CULT !!! You Really have YEARS of Experience between you & the points you make show the GB & the Organisation is GOVERNED by PHARASAICAL Rules which have no relation to Christianity because Jesus wanted LOVE,JUSTICE & MERCY!!!
Where in the Scriptures has the GB got the right to tell me WHAT DAMN COLOUR SHIRT to WEAR on the PLATFORM & whether I have a BEARD or not as I was told in 1984 by my body of Elders !!!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:11 pm
If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness myself and now having become a “disassociated fader” that just raised so many red flags. Any witness, disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility?
I believe her, but man that just troubles me.
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 2:49 pm
@J*L*C*R . I have listened to Brie twice now & she does say the correct pronunciation ! This is an INNOCENT Question but do you listen to LOUD Music a lot because you may have lost some of your sense of hearing.
Perhaps you should visit a Doctor who specialises in HEARING Disabilities! I say this with genuine concern as now you have no hope of the ‘PARADISE’ your hearing won’t be healed in the New System!!
I can VOUCH for Everything she says which I have seen & experienced much of what she relates in many many instances!!
You are NOT a MAN by ANY CHANCE!!! Because WOMEN have Had Enough of being Treated as SECOND CLASS CITIZENS in the ORGANISATION ,LETS Not NIT PICK But concentrate on the Positive!!
This Video will Help tens of thousands of women BREAK FREE from The SLAVERY imposed on them in this Organisation & YES I CALL DOMESTIC ABUSE …. SLAVERY!!!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:50 pm
Pickled Brain….for someone who states they hate the watchtower so much, you really enjoy using their tactics of bullying and insulting language when trying to convey an argument.
Not to mention going completely off the reservation with the topic at hand… we are talking about the greenhorn, door-step bible student mistake of mispronouncing the name of the religion.
Any JW would laugh at this because of the mistakes in small details. In order to sway their entrenched opinion, you have to be on your toes with the facts at hand.
I clearly heard her repeatedly say “Jehovah Witness” singular and not plural…that’s just my opinion.
This does not detract from her argument or message in any way…she conveyed it politely, stayed on topic, and was courteous throughout. Maybe, you should watch it a third time and learn some of that before giving someone both barrels over the internet.
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Pat says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:25 pm
J*L*C*R , I for one like to misspell their name too, I do it subconsciously. I think it’s a way of showing I am not one of them anymore, I don’t follow their rules, call them however I want sort of thing.
I was brought up in this religion too.
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Queen Elsa says:
May 29, 2015 at 11:21 pm
Who cares!!!! Nit picking like the organization does, drives me nuts!
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:13 am
Also, not “nit picking” is why I was trapped in this organization for so long. Critically examine everything before you accept it at face value. Her main point was “think for yourself”….seriously people, don’t be a sheep.
Just because something “tickles your ear” doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be subjective and examine it thoroughly.
Pat says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:04 pm
But that’s exactly my point, I was trying to show that not spelling JWs name correctly is completely normal even if you were a witness for decades, hence in my opinion it is totally irrelevant in establishing the truthfulness of Brie’s story.
Liam smith says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:26 pm
Well done you for standing up to the bullies on this site
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:29 pm
Liam Smith – What an interesting observation coming from someone who, on first arriving on this site, once said…
“Been a fader for 3 years now and actually find some of the comments on here so petty and nit picking, GET A LIFE.”
Amazing that I am a bully for saying “You’re easily insulted,” while your “petty and nitpicking, GET A LIFE” remark gets a clean bill of health.
anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:47 pm
@J*L*C*R, are you seriously suggesting that she made up her life experience in the “truth” because she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness? Why in the world would a young girl make up a story like that when most Witness kids find it embarrassing to even admit to the rest of the kids that they even belong to the Witness religion?
How she was treated as a young Witness is why she spoke with such feeling and she has EMPATHY for the victims that she is talking about which most Witnesses don’t have.
If anyone doubts that she is telling the truth, there has to be something wrong with them or else that girl deserves an Oscar for such a moving performance for being such a good actress and I for one can’t imagine that she is acting.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 3:57 pm
I said I believed her… I only implied that why one Earth would someone mispronounce the name of the religion? It was probably a simple mistake but not even bible studies make that greenhorn mistake in mispronunciation… particularly someone who grew up in it. When a person makes novice mistakes like that, it detracts from the message. It’s like listening to a lecture and someone constantly mispronouncing the subject…after awhile it’s just embarrassing.
Also, that’s a nice comment you made about “If anyone doubts that she is telling the truth, there has to be something wrong with them”. That reminds me of an organization that called anyone with a different opinion “mentally handicapped”…I wonder where we have heard that before?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:03 pm
Also, not “nit picking” is why I was trapped in this organization for so long. Critically examine everything before you accept it at face value. Her main point was “think for yourself”….seriously people, don’t be a sheep.
Just because something “tickles your ear” doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be subjective and examine it thoroughly.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:26 pm
That wasn’t the end of my sentence J*L*C*R. I don’t know for sure that everything she said was the truth either but if she’s not telling her true experience with the “truth” then I said she deserves an Oscar for being that good an actress. Her speech was so moving that she had students also tearing up and I am sure that a lot of people who watched her video teared up when they were listening to it. If she’s that good an actress, she deserves an award for it.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:14 pm
and to add to my last comment, I have heard many a Witness say Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness from people who have been in the “truth” for many many years. It is a common mistake especially for people who weren’t allowed to go to college and especially for people who aren’t in the “truth” and you have to remember that she was talking to kids who are used to hearing the term Jehovah Witnesses instead of Jehovah’s Witnesses but she does start out by saying that she was raised a “Jehovah’s Witness”.
Also, she names the congregation where she was from and the first experience was in that congregation and could be easily proved false if it wasn’t true.
When Brie gave that speech, she was just giving a speech in class and had no idea it would get hundreds of thousands of views within a week and if she had known that was going to happen, she probably would have been really nervous. She had no idea that thousands of people were going to see her speech and didn’t realize that there would be people who would pick on every little word she said wrong, which is a good thing. If she had known ahead of time what would happen, who knows? Maybe she would have been too nervous, knowing how people would be picking it apart, word by word and not had to courage to go through with her speech.
What she did took courage beyond courage and to say that her speech raised red flags to you, raises red flags to your comment as far as I am concerned.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:29 pm
What part of “I agree with what she said” didn’t you understand? You are preaching to the choir, already. Good lord friend, take a breath.
And please, just because someone has a different opinion other than yours, DOES NOT give you the right to shove your own down their throats. If I wanted to not have a cool, calm debate over a topic; I’d just as soon start attending my meetings again and have their opinions shoved down my throat.
We can agree or disagree without being disagreeable.
Also, before you throw another tantrum. I AGREE WITH BRIE AND EVERYTHING SHE SAID….I ALSO AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SAID. (except for the whole “if you disagree with brie something must be wrong with you” part that was just plain rude.
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R*L*C*J says:
May 29, 2015 at 4:41 pm
Seriously… you people blocked me? I am the only EX JW who is not so touchy about their past experiences that they cannot politely discuss their opinions with others? I was nothing but polite and courteous to all the people who insulted me and you don’t see me blocking them.
For Pete’s sake, one person says anything contrary to popular opinion and they jump on them faster than a pizza at a weightloss convention.
Has anyone read Pickled Brains response to mine? There were so many ad hominem attacks, insults, and bullying remarks, you would think Pickled Brain was a member of the governing body. Particularly, after I wrote “I agree with what she said”.
Just because your typing and looking at an empty computer screen doesn’t give anyone the right to be rude to the other.
anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:13 pm
J*L*C*R, again, my whole sentence was if anyone doubted that she was telling the truth there has to be something wrong with them, did not end there. The rest of the sentence was because if she is not telling the truth, she has to get an Oscar for her performance.
Neither of us knows her or lived through her experiences so all we can do is go by what she said and how she said it. I wasn’t saying that if anyone doubted her that there was something wrong with them and left it there.
We are all entitled to our opinions but most dyed in the wool Witnesses would say the same thing you did and then they would call into question the validity of her being a Witness and say she is making it all up because she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness every time but if you listen to her speech again, you will hear that she starts out by saying “I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness”.
There were a couple things about her speech too that I wondered about like why in the world would those elders tell that young woman that she had to drop the charges against her rapist if she wasn’t to get disfellowshipped especially since the one that raped her wasn’t even a Witness.
What I would love to see is if it get national attention and she is able to go on television and give the whole story or maybe have those women come on and tell their stories to back her up. I am sure there is much more to the stories that she had to leave out because of time constraints.
Cedars says:
May 30, 2015 at 1:47 am
“I believe her, but man that just troubles me.”
You’re easily troubled.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:42 am
Seriously, Lloyd. For someone I look up to as a man for free thinking and not taking things at face value, you insult me?
You were a witness once too, in your congregation didn’t the die hards laugh at those who called themselves “Jehovah Witness” instead of “I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
I would expect to be congratulated at such scrutiny, from a man such as yourself, who ALWAYS says to ask questions.
I was you and your articles that woke myself and my mother and father up in the first place.
For someone who suffers from depression Lloyd, that was a pretty low comment to say to someone who may have the same affliction.
You are my hero Lloyd, and your reaction to my comment is just plain hurtful.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:52 am
Also, when it comes to finding the truth about the realities of the Watchtower’s crimes, yes I am easily troubled. Anyone serious about taking them down would be easily troubled to anything they could turn around and beat the arguer over the head with.
Brie did a fantastic job but in the eyes of any witness, (as you know) when they start calling themselves “Jehovah Witness” it all goes out the window for them.
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Cedars says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:12 am
You’re insulted by my saying “you’re easily troubled?”
Then you’re also easily insulted.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:16 am
I took your comment too seriously. All things aside though, I can’t believe I am talking to you Lloyd. You are my hero!
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:24 am
This is why I don’t like online communication, same with emails. I can’t hear a person’s tone and their sense of humor (like I know you definitely have one over prank calling Tight Pants Tony) over the internet.
I’ve always wanted to get involved and write an article for your site, Lloyd. How can a person go about doing that? If that’s even an option?
Anyway, thanks for your time Lloyd, and the opportunity to talk with you.
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:01 am
I came to this site in hopes of finding cool and calm individuals I could have a horizon broadening debate with. Now I see there are just as many hotheads and extremists on this site as there are at my Kingdom Hall. I’ll have to keep looking, I guess.
Anyway, I have a life to live now free from the Watchtower. A world where I am not afraid to share my opinions with others from fear of reprisals.
Last Words…just because it’s coming from a seemingly innocent and reliable source, don’t automatically assume it’s the truth. Examine the facts and come to your own conclusions…
You should patrol and inforce your guidlines more Lloyd, I have never been more insulted in my life than in your comments section.
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Darlene says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:46 am
J*L*C*R, of course it is always good to try to get to the bottom of something. But everything has its extremes, like the complete acquiesce of people in the cult and also the people out of it, who now challenge everything and believe nothing.
Think the other way around, if she’d somehow made that up and faked her JW experience I’d expect her to be very very fussy to NOT let something like that slip. I’d expect her to research JWs really good so that she knew how they are called. There might be exceptions, but probably the normal young student is not capable of pulling such a double stunt. And if, what’d be the point of that? For what purpose should she troll the JW and Ex-JW community?
I guess it’s just that: a nervous pupil giving a speech about something highly emotional in which she is directly involved. Such errors simply happen.
(Answer to (citate) just in case it got mixed up):
If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness myself and now having become a “disassociated fader” that just raised so many red flags. Any witness, disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility?
I believe her, but man that just troubles me
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:35 pm
Anonymous…I agree 100%. :)
Also, it turns out I wasn’t blocked, it was a spam sifter or something. My bad. (operator malfunction)
It’s hard enough for a kid to speak in front of the class, let alone about a topic so sensitive. She is a courageous young woman who has my respect.
I also want to apologize to you for what I said earlier. I took your comment to literally and I scrutinized her speech a little too much.
Since, i’ve left the “truth” all of my friends and some of my family have cut all ties. Going to school now even (community college), I keep my past hidden because I am afraid of how my new friends would react to being around an ex cultist.
Brie really is an inspiration. One day, I hope I can confront my own past and follow her example.
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anonymous says:
May 29, 2015 at 5:55 pm
I understand. You were playing devil’s advocate and there is nothing wrong with that. I believe in doing the same thing if we want active Witnesses to know that we aren’t being biased but being honest with them.
If Witnesses are going to pick on her video and call it into question, they will pick on one little thing like that and dismiss everything else that she said. Their brains will stop at that and go no further.
Witnesses will look for any little imperfections in her speech to say she is making it up but most honest people can tell by how she speaks, that she was affected personally and that comes through loud and clear. We also have to remember that she was only giving a speech to her class and did not know it would be to the world, like it turned out to be. Had she known ahead of time and she wasn’t too nervous to give that speech, she would have made it perfect, I am sure. As it was, it was from the heart and it didn’t have to be perfect but it was amazing anyway.
It has only been one week since her speech and this is only the beginning. Hopefully it reaches millions and millions of views. Hopefully there will be a ground swell against the Society starting with the youth and maybe her speech will give other children the courage to speak up too. Her speech makes me want to get up in front of people and do the same thing. She truly is an inspiration to all of us.
The youth are the next generation and if they refuse to fall in step, then the head of the snake will die.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:48 pm
Amen to that anonymous…. the sooner the better.
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Grace says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:49 pm
@J*L*C*R,
You did raise a legitimate question, I did notice that she said “Jehovah Witness”. I just put it down to nerves & I thought that still ins would pick that but I thought that if that’s all that they had to pick then they’re being nit picky which is something that they are good at.
Your opinions are appreciated, it’s good to have open debate.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:50 pm
Thank you! Your open-mindedness is greatly appreciated. :)
If we can’t have good, polite debates here then where can we have them?
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M Saurus says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:17 pm
I watched the video and quite frankly was a little weirded out when she got all choked up. I know it’s nerve-wracking giving a speech like that and she recovered nicely.
However, I do agree with JLCR. I was entrenched in this religion from age 8 to age 48, about 3 years ago. The most laughed at and popular “mistake” was always when someone said I’m a Jehovah Witness. No. If you’ve been involved for more than 6 months or so, you are “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”.
I too heard Brie make that mistake in terminology throughout her video. Maybe her mother was “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” – but she was, by her own admission, “a Jehovah Witness”. Big, Big difference.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:51 pm
Exactly!
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Grace says:
May 29, 2015 at 6:51 pm
@Who Shall Go When God’s Kingdom Comes?,
Have you thought of maybe trying a new drug. You sound very intoxicated.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:54 pm
I know that’s right! I’ll have what he’s having. 😉
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 9:32 pm
@J*L*C*R . GOOD GRIEF ! I CANNOT Believe the debate that has ensued while I went to sleep after my last comment !! I am from the U,K. and it is 5.30 . Just getting up to get ready for field service You LACK a Sense of humour J*L*C*R . You ACCUSE ME of NOT BEING POLITE!! Well you Don’t do a BAD JOB of Being Insulting & YES YOU ARE RIGHT ….., I AM A MEMBER of the GOVERNING BODY going under the guise of …. PICKLED BRAIN…!!!!
ANTHONY is my REAL NAME… You LACK A SENSE of HUMOUR & for that I Will ANNOUNCE from the PLATFORM that you WILL BE ….. RE-INSTATED!!!
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Pickled brain says:
May 29, 2015 at 9:57 pm
@J*L*C*R …. Before I commented to you there were only 72 replies to this post & I thought there should be at least 500 on THIS BRILLIANT YOUNG LADIES POST!!
I BET YOU ARE From the GOOD OLD U.S.A…,,, Just have a STRANGE FEELING in MY GOOD OLD … EZEKIEL BONES !!!! A Bit Like the FAITHFUL SLAVE had in 1919!!
Oh hhhh !! BOY oh BOYI am GOING to ENJOY DEBATING with you J*L*C*R*.
Anyway MUCH CHRISTIAN LOVE to YOU …. J*L*C*R*
LOVE ANTHONY the THIRDddddd xxx
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J*L*C*R says:
May 29, 2015 at 7:53 pm
Either you are being extraordinarily rude to M Saurus or your up to your eyeballs in that religion. If so, trust me I’ve been in your shoes…get out before it’s too late and your life and time has been wasted….no joke.
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 12:46 am
@J*L*C*R . You could be RIGHT maybe I have spent too long in this Religion!! Something I can agree with you on… & YES I suppose sometimes the mouth can run ahead of the brain ! I have to admit it can happen to the best of us or the worst!
But they say it takes a STRONG MAN to say they are SORRY !! So I am willing to say I was too harsh in my comments to you & yes you have a right to comment on how BRIE said things .
BUT I will say it is important to STAY UNITED in WHAT BRIEs MESSAGE was & that was INJUSTICE AGAINST WOMEN !!
I
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:46 am
Amen, Pickled Brain. I except your apology.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 8:57 am
If you bothered to read my comment to anonymous, I apologized to him to.
I came to this site in hopes of finding cool and calm individuals I could have a horizon broadening debate with. Now I see there are just as many hotheads and extremists on this site as there are at my Kingdom Hall. I’ll have to keep looking, I guess.
Anyway, I have a life to live now free from the Watchtower. A world where I am not afraid to share my opinions with others from fear of reprisals.
Last Words…just because it’s coming from a seemingly innocent and reliable source, don’t automatically assume it’s the truth. Examine the facts and come to your own conclusions…
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:26 am
@J*L*C*R* . Thank you for BEING SO GRACIOUS in your Acceptance of my apology . IT IS APPRECIATED !!! You have shown yourself to be a DECENT PERSON !!
WE all NEED on this site to be in UNISON in our FIGHT against the Watchtower & GB!!
The main Focus here is what Brie Highlighted that WOMEN in the ORGANISATION are Treated like Second Class Citizens!!!
Take care J*L*C*R* … You have suffered like the rest of us at the hands of the GB & Watchtower . So I wish you well
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:23 am
@J*L*C*R * . We ALL NEED as Many Comments on this site as possible. Your comments are Valued !!! I might be a bit Naughty at times with my comments but US BRITS HUMOUR May not be Appreciated by ALL . But we Need you ALL on this site !
Let’s Carry the Fight TOGETHER !!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:46 pm
@Shanti . I LIKE your CALM LOGIC in your Comments & Reasoning to J*L*C*R *
Your comments show a very balanced approach & Attitude & did influence me in my Apology to J*L*C*R* .
We don’t want to intentionally hurt anyone who is struggling to get over from the damage the GB have done to people!!
Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:51 pm
A king has no power without his army.
Thus a few men on the GB don’t deserve all the blame. Their supporters are guilty too. Without them, the GB would have no power.
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:10 pm
@Apostates will SUFFER GNASHING of Teeth. I JUST CANT RESIST Having SENSIBLE DIALOGUE with you …. As we are getting on so well together … I Feel Quite Close to you ???? Pardon Me , but do you mind if I CALL You ‘ GNASHING ‘ for short … It has such a WARM FEEL To it !!!
Anyway my DEAR GNASHING , you sat the GLORIOUS TRUTH will SHINE THROUGH ‘!!!!
Could you Kindly tell me ‘Is that the GLORIOUS TRUTH about 1799(Last Days According to Russell)) & 1874& 1878 or 1914,1918,1919,1925,1975 or the Glorious Truth about ‘ the GENERATION ‘ or ‘Sheep& Goats or Who the F& D Slave are or whether to have ORGAN TRANSPLANTS????
Well my Dear Gnashing Teeth … See you at the DENTISTS!!! I think you NEED FILLING IN Or CROWNED !!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:14 pm
@ Simon Kestrel. I appreciated your comment about ‘Except’ ,
I enjoy your comments.
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:22 pm
@ GNASHING !!! WHERE ARE YOU … MY LOVE???
Swallowtail says:
May 30, 2015 at 5:04 pm
That is absolutely hilarious Pickled Brain. I am sure “Gnashing” had more important things to do, like go collect all the pocket change/ice cream money from the kids at his local kingdom hall. The society does not need the money or anything, they just need something shiny to glue to their miniature pyramid they are building. Got to let the light get brighter after all…….
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:19 pm
@Swallow Tail . GLAD you enjoyed the LOVE that is BLOSSOMING between ME & GNASHING ????!
I feel like writing a NEW BIBLE BOOK called …… Wait for it ….. Da DA Da …, ‘The SONG of GNASHING ‘. …Solomon … EAT YOUR HEART OUT!!!
SwallowTail .. I REALLY ENJOY your SENSE of HUMOUR TOO!!! My HERO ??is JOHN CLEESE!!! Just Love FAWLTY TOWERS & Parts of MONTY PYTHON!!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:57 pm
@J*L*C*R . YOU ARE RIGHT.., WE ARE STRONGER UNITED !!! Don’T LET the GB WIN by DIVIDING US … So APOLOGIES to ANYONE ELSE on this Site I may have Rubbed up the Wrong Way in the Past !!
Let’s BEAT the GB TOGETHER !!!!
Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:29 pm
@Finn Sawyer. Scrolling back to earlier comments I noticed your ones . You show a Depth of wisdom in how you approach your subject like Shanti does .
Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 11:04 pm
Thanks PB. I enjoy your comments as well.
Pickled brain says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:43 am
@Swallowtail . Glad you like my ‘Song of Gnashing’… WONDER IF MY SONG will Make the NEW SONG BOOK !!! I will submit it to the GB…What do you think my chances are???
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:43 pm
@ Pickled Brain, Don’t you waste your awesome ‘Song of Gnashing’ on them now!! You keep that jewel for yourself and all of us! LOL
Pickled brain says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:20 pm
@Swallowtail . I think you are right . My Talented Song would probably be wasted on the GB though I was thinking of Asking Stephen LETTS to Sing it !!
I MEAN his GNASHING GESTURES would be AMAZING!!! & David Splane would make a Great DRACULA!!!!
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:10 pm
THAT’S GENIUS Pickled Brain. Hey while we are at it, lets get them to perform it in some “tight pants”.
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 1:07 am
@Swallowtail . NOW THATS WHAT I CALL…… ‘ NEW LIGHT’!!!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:23 am
@Exhausted . Enjoy your comments & I like the Name you’ve called yourself . I think we have ALL FELT MENTALLY EXHAUSTED at Times because of the EMOTIONAL PAIN & HURT caused by the STUPID & CRUEL RULES of 7 MEN in BROOKLYN !!
& AS you say IT IS the SUBJUGATION of WOMEN in this CULT & the The ISSUE of DOMESTIC ABUSE & the DISGUSTING WAY it is HANDLED by the GB!!!
UTTERLY DISGRACEFUL !!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:39 am
DAVID SPLANE & HIS WHITE ONLY CHOIR with the Token black person thrown in MAKES ME SICK!!
Years ago the GB stopped sisters playing the piano for songs in the Kingdom Hall BECAUSE it DREW TOO MUCH ATTENTION to the SISTER playing the Piano.
SUBJUGATION of WOMEN AGAIN…..But the DRAMA QUEEN …. DAVID ( Dracula ) SPLANE PONCES about with his FLIPPING WAND( conductors stick) .. WAVING it ABOUT like He’s GODS GIFT to the Philharmonic Orchestra.
DRACULA …. Sorry I mean … DAVID ,the DAMNED END is COMING( ARMAGEDDON ) , GET OUT & Get your DAMNED CART out there ,Knock on a few Doors & SAVE LIVES!!
GET RID of the CHOIR .!! Our DEAR Stephen LETTS is SHORT on FUNDS !!! & KEEP Your LIFE SIMPLE !!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 3:37 pm
If Anyone wants to see the FAMOUS , ILLUSTRIOUS CONDUCTOR & COMPOSER:
DAVID VON SPLANE BEETHOVEN ! PLEASE Look at That Popular TV Series … TV.JW.Org & Go to the Music Section & Songs….. JUST SO FINANCIALLY INSPIRING !!!
Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:45 pm
PB, those choir pieces literally make me nauseous. When did this organization become so obsessed with singing and music videos? Growing up, I asked my parents why we weren’t allowed to listen to Christian rock, why don’t we have a choir? Seems like that would be ideal music for a Christian, my naive mind reasoned. The answer: “It’s not Christian it’s from the Devil!” Now, I’m sure JW chicks are falling all over themselves for the anonymous music video brother the’yre using these days in the broadcasts. What’s next? A long-haired rock band? I can barely keep up the light is getting brighter so quickly!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:00 pm
@FInn . What REALLY ANNOYED me last year our Congregation donated £3000 for Hospitality for Inter ational Delegates & SIsters & Brothers were Dancing & Singing to Pharrell Williams song ‘HAPPY’
Back in the 1980s I DESTROYED all my Rock Records of The Rolling Stones, The Who,Bad Company ,Deep Purple, David Bowie,Etc because of the GB telling us ‘ Would we Listen to this Music IF JESUS was in the Room with us??
So OBVIOUSLY …. JESUS is HAPPY to Listen to Pharrell Williams …. WELCOME to the Forever Changing ‘ CLARIFICATIONS & ADJUSTMENTS of 7 mainly AMERICAN MEN in Brooklyn !!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:15 pm
@Finn . I think the Camera LINGERS TOO LONG on the SISTER with the RED LIPSTICK … Or Hang on Maybe THATS ME LINGERING Toooo Long on the Voluptuous Sister with the RED LIPSTICK !!!!
I Think DavId SPLANES Conductors STICK is TOO UPRIGHT when He POINTS HIS ‘STICK????? At the SISTER with the RED LIPSTICK !!
Anyway i am SURE If you are Reading this Post … David….Your MOST HOLINESS that you could CORRECT ?? Me if I am Wrong !!!
I BET David SPLANE Likes doing ‘ A BIT of CO- ERECTION !!!!
Pickled brain says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:30 pm
Please Accept my HUMBLEST APOLIGIES , but my SPELLING & PUNCTUATION Needs to be WORKED ON …. I must get some Advice from the Theocratic Ministry School Overseer!!
Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:50 pm
Have you also noticed how they give more camera time to the men than women in those choir pieces? Or is that just me?
Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:48 am
hahaha! :-) Pickled Brain your “Song of Gnashing” is bound to make more sense than the Revelation its Grand Climax at Hand! book that we used to have to study. 😉
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:45 pm
Thanks Pickled Brain…. Truer words were never spoken. We are stronger united and I am grateful for having this site here, to communicate.
Anyway, thanks for the support and good luck to you too. :)
J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 4:01 pm
The watchtower is so messed up with women’s rights they wouldn’t even let sisters count the money in the donation box. These sisters were professional full time bank tellers that could count the donations and sort them in 15 minutes flat. But the “elders” decided that this was inappropriate for sisters to do, so they stepped in and fumbled through the same job in over an hour. It makes absolutely no sense, that and wearing a headdress if you lead a bible study with a baptized brother present. Even if the brother is family, if he’s baptized and in the same house at the time of the study, a headdress or hat is mandatory. Just stupid and crazy stuff on the watchtower’s part.
anonymous says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:56 am
J*L*C*R, don’t be put off by Lloyd’s comments to you. I think we were all a bit put off by your initial comments about Brie because you started off by says “if” she was a Witness all those years so you started off your comment by calling into question her truthfulness, which is what any JW apologist would do and then you said when she said Jehovah Witness instead of Jehovah’s Witness, it raised “red flags” to you which also implied she was lying. Then you ended it by saying that it was “troubling to you”. All those comments were calling into question the validity of Brie’s life story.
I was hoping that Lloyd would comment and I was glad he did and I thought his comment were quite nice considering how incendiary and suspicious that Brie was telling the truth about her life in the Watchtower, your initial comments seemed to be.
After explaining that you were just playing devils advocate, your comments seemed less like a Watchtower apologist and more understandable.
I have also had some of my comments not published because maybe I came off somewhat like your comment and being critical which is not helpful to our cause of bringing the Watchtower’s lies out in the open for all to see.
If you go to Youtube and go to Brie’s youtube video, there is a link you can read about her life story that explains a lot about how terribly her and her mother have been treated and you would understand why she isn’t going to give the Watchtower any respect by saying Jehovah’s Witnesses and instead says “Jehovah Witnesses”.
Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:39 pm
RE: comments not published
It may not be censorship, I think the web site software sometimes loses them. It’s happened to me.
Charles Costante says:
May 29, 2015 at 10:18 pm
“This woman is disgusting and ugly on the inside. How shocking to use half-truths to mislead and manipulate unsuspecting school pupils to avoid learning the wonderful truths in God’s Word. But rejoice not O you apostates! Righthearted ones will surely be moved by God’s spirit to overcome these lies and come to know His Organization. To you we say: Repent and Return to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls!”
Who Shall Go When God’s Kingdom Comes?, it seems to me that you’re so used to the Governing Body speaking on your behalf that you’ve become like the puppet on a ventriloquist’s hand. Do yourself a favour and start learning the truth about the “truth” – it might actually set you free!
“If she has been in it so long… how come she makes the mistake of constantly calling them “Jehovah Witness” when it’s “Jehovah’S Witnesses” ”
J*L*C*R, I watched the first few minutes of the video and noticed that she does initially use “Jehovah’s Witnesses” and then it became “Jehovah Witness”. It does sound a bit odd coming from someone who has been one, but I then thought that it was probably an unconscious ‘mirroring’ to connect to her classmates.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology) Most people (and probably her classmates) call them ‘Jehovah Witnesses’, not ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’.
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Ken says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:25 pm
Honestly I found Brie’s video full of silly , and embarrassing moments of sending a picture to boy of her and a friend in a bikini . So the boy got the pics on cell , so his mom caught him masturbating to them ,so the boys mom reports Brie to the “elders” seems a bit out of character for a mother , but if Brie sent those pictures to that boy , seems a bit odd that she
would get DF for doing that . You might say that
Brie’s mother should have gotten involved since she
is “underage”. Forgive me Ceders , but this is stupid .
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:36 pm
@Ken, that’s what this religion diminishes people to. I have friends who are mothers of daughters of the same age & I can tell you it all sounded so silly at the time listening to their stories but that’s what this religion does to people. You start to lose your own assuredness.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:00 pm
Ken, you really should watch the video before commenting.
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SwimmingWild says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:39 am
@Charles Costante
Interesting possibility – unconscious mirroring by Brie of her classmates vocabulary – a well known neurologically programmed behaviour as the link showed. They would more likely know the cult members as Jehovah Witnesses.
Also it could be a conscious courtesy to her audience – using the term Brie knows they use for this group. It’s like when I go the the USA (from the UK) I will refer to the “trunk” rather than the “boot” of a car. Or to adjust for the different pronunciation of tomato, potato and garage in American English.
None of this makes any difference to the content and effective delivery of her talk – and its brilliantly successful publicising of the dark side if this cult.
SwimmingWild
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Shanti says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:06 am
J*L*C*R*:
I think the primary objective was to come to Brie’s defense and not to insult you. You must understand there are regulars on this forum who have distinct personalities. Please get to know them and understand their voices. They all have something to offer as I think you do as well. I can understand how passionate you are about your views. I don’t doubt for a minute that the regulars here would come to your defense if it was required.
The JW’s left me w/ the sense of “it’s me or them”. If they don’t agree w/ me, they must be against me. That is just not true. I have to fight it every day. Coming to this website has helped me understand that we might disagree on the little things but we are united where it counts.
I appreciate what Brie did regardless of the wording. I don’t want to take the attention away from this milestone with what might appear to outsiders as petty infighting. She is very young to have taken on this responsibility and I think the attention and focus needs to be on what she did accomplish. There are so many positives about what this young woman did. I would love to hear followups from her. I don’t want to squelch her creativity because we circled all the errors in red ink and sent the piece back to her. I would love to see her contribute articles on this website w/ Cedars. She is just starting her escape from the JW’s. We all know how difficult that is. It would be so exciting to have her check in and tell us her progress.
Congratulations on leaving the JW’s with your family intact. That is a milestone on it’s own merit. Many of us have not been so lucky and are still struggling to cope with life w/o any family.
I think we all need a reminder that it takes a while to shake the “JW” out of our heads.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:49 pm
Thanks for the kind words, Shanti! It’s a struggle for us all and I hope to get to know the regulars here in time. Thanks again.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:29 pm
J*L*C*R, you told Pickled you “except” his apology.
I know what you meant. But as you demonstrate, not everyone is 100% precise in their speech or writing. I have heard experienced JWs say “Jehovah Witness” when asked about their religion. Some, as you say, like to be precise. But others, not so much.
If we understand what people mean, that’s the important thing.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 2:33 pm
My reply to J*L*C*R appears BEFORE his post. Weird. Maybe a web site software bug I guess.
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Simon Kestral says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:12 pm
Gnashing said:
“TRUTH OF GOD’S GLORIOUS ORGANIZATION WILL SHINE THROUGH!!”
I trust it will. But the evidence I’ve examined convinces me WT is not it.
The GB says “WE ARE THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE!”
Any slave claiming that title for himself, is presumptuous. Only the master, Jesus, can decide which slaves to reward. And Jesus has not done so yet.
That false claim makes it obvious: the WT is not God’s organization, it is not God’s channel of communication.
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ScotWm says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:20 am
The self-appointed Governing Body, which claims to be the faithful slave class, has assured us that jesus will indeed reward them when they are appointed over all the Master’s belongings! Here is the official prophesy:
“When Jesus comes for judgment during the great tribulation, he will find that the faithful slave has been loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics. Jesus will then delight in making the second appointment — over all his belongings.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.25 par.18).
The Governing Body has made Jesus’ decision for him and even described his mood as being one of delight.
If “loyally dispensing timely spiritual food to the domestics” includes the Governing Body’s history of publishing constantly-changing scriptural interpretations, making endless false prophesies and lying about Watchtower history, this prophesy will indeed come true.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:48 pm
Something may be buggy on this site, my posts are not appearing in the order I thought I posted them.
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Juan Viejo says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:56 pm
Finn (and others) – If you take a second look at the way the comments are arranged you may notice that when someone responds to an earlier comment, that response is filed beneath the original to keep the sequence in place. Some comments will have a larger response than others and so the thread will have a jump between dates. That is the option we have chosen. Otherwise, someone replies to an earlier comment but the context is lost.
Many comments are held for review because (a) they include words or phrases that might be considered obscene or have used words that may sound like a sales pitch. We get tons of that sort. (b) The writer includes one or more links within the comment. If the link goes to a spammy site or has spammy words included in the domain name [SEO, lowcost, free, buy, etc.] or they are repeated within the text, the comment will be held for review. (c) One of the administrators notices that the comment is off topic or violates one or more of the guidelines. Later comments may go through – leaving the poster to wonder why one was missing, and another was posted.
More often than not, an article like this one about Brie will draw a lot of comments and will quickly load up our review cache. Cedars and his regular crew try to keep up. Occasionally, being the webmaster, I will jump in and release or remove a ton of old comments just to help the system run more efficiently. There are some comments that are right on the line as to whether they should be approved or not – and we all try to take a liberal approach to them. But some are just a bit over the top, off subject, too adult for adults, or just a waste of Internet ink and add nothing to the thread.
I hope this gives you a general idea about what goes on in the background. Maybe by reading this comment, anyone who has not seen their comment appear within a few days send an email to contact@jwsurvey and address it to “Webmaster” – I’ll take a look at your problem to make sure it is not a glitch in the system. I’ll try to let you know why your comment was automatically
held for review. I can assure everyone that comments are appreciated – even those that are somewhat negative. So just give us a clue that you feel there is a problem and we’ll take a look.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 30, 2015 at 3:57 pm
I agree with JLCR and M Saurus,
I think the pronunciation thing was a little strange. It made me question how recently or closely she was involved with the JWs. But she seems to fear disfellowshipping so she must be baptized. On another point: I don’t mean to discount Brie’s story, but I also don’t think it is wrong to question her credibility. It is what we should do, whether or not the comments are for or against Watchtower. The anecdotes she related, while heart-breaking and powerful, are unsupported. There is nothing wrong with doubting their veracity. Whenever Anthony Morris lobs one of his ridiculous anecdotes our way and expects us to take it on faith we immediately suspect it is a lie. If Cedars relied on 2nd or 3rd person anecdotes I would question his credibility as well. I’m not saying the stories are worthless and I don’t think Brie was lying. But I’m not going to buy into it lock stock and barrel just because the information originates with a well-meaning, innocent person. Brie, if you’re reading this it is not a criticism of you, just a statement of how I feel a critical thinker should process information. If others find it valuable (and obviously like 600,000 do!) I’ll not criticize them.
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J*L*C*R says:
May 30, 2015 at 7:00 pm
@Finn Sawyer
You worded that absolutely perfectly. Thank you. :)
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anonymous says:
May 30, 2015 at 6:57 pm
Just one week ago, Brie posted her video and it’s over 600,000 views and still going.
With all the tall tales that the Governing Body come up with in their talks, I don’t think any one of Jehovah’s Witnesses should call into question whether or not all of Brie’s experiences were completely true or not. She was repeating what others told her and she believed them and since we weren’t there living those experiences like what those sisters went though, we have no reason to doubt that they were not true stories.
We know that when she described the disfellowshipping policy for ones who try and walk away from the religion when they find out about the lies and corruption within the Organization, there is no untruth about that and that was a very powerful part of the speech, along with how terribly kids and women are treated.
From her speech, we also got to know how much pain and suffering a child must feel to imagine their own father being killed at Armageddon and so why it was so difficult for kids to make friends at school because of that, knowing that they’d all be killed at Armageddon and turned into bird food.
What her speech did was to demonstrate the anguish that every child must feel who are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses with the constant fear of the War of Armageddon that is drummed into their heads each and every day of their lives. That is child abuse!!!
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Pickled brain says:
May 30, 2015 at 9:43 pm
@Swallowtail. Just to add to my last comment .As The ‘Apostate Gnashing of Teeth ‘Post is a diehard JW …, He or she will probably NOT have a sense of humour so the best way to beat their bilge is with Humour!!! It CONFUSES THEM … As the Elders never have a Sense of Humour when I’ve been Counseled publicly in the Watchtower for my COMMENTS !! Quite a few Sisters are Catching on to what I am Subtley doing by giving me BIG SMILES at the End of the MEETING & Saying ‘I Really Enjoyed your comments ! I know there are others in my Kingdom Hall who don’t believe a word what the GB NEW LIGHT IS , But they are TRAPPED because of FAMILY MEMBERS who Have BLIND LOYALTY to the GB & have left their Brains at Home!
This is WHAT is SO EVIL about the GB with their SHUNNING Policies , but it WILL BACKFIRE because the GB may Stop people leaving the Organistion because of Attachment to family members, BUT I Guarantee you that HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS have LEFT the ORGANISATION MENTALLY & think NEW LIGHT CONCEPT is BANANAS!!!
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Charles Costante says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:09 pm
“I don’t mean to discount Brie’s story, but I also don’t think it is wrong to question her credibility. It is what we should do, whether or not the comments are for or against Watchtower. The anecdotes she related, while heart-breaking and powerful, are unsupported. There is nothing wrong with doubting their veracity. Whenever Anthony Morris lobs one of his ridiculous anecdotes our way and expects us to take it on faith we immediately suspect it is a lie. If Cedars relied on 2nd or 3rd person anecdotes I would question his credibility as well. I’m not saying the stories are worthless and I don’t think Brie was lying. But I’m not going to buy into it lock stock and barrel just because the information originates with a well-meaning, innocent person.”
I couldn’t agree with you more, Finn! When at the age of twenty five I came to the realisation that what I had believed fervently to be the “truth” since I was toddler was a load of nonsense, I made the decision to question everything I had ever taken for granted and would continue to do so from then on. I even question “scientific fact” which some may consider a bit extreme, but I say, “once bitten, twice shy”.
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Charles Costante says:
May 30, 2015 at 10:17 pm
“Seriously, Lloyd. For someone I look up to as a man for free thinking and not taking things at face value, you insult me?”
J*L*C*R, I would have been very upset if Lloyd had made those comments to me, so I understand how you feel. He can come across as arrogant and is often sarcastic and quite defensive when contradicted, things I try and ignore only because he’s so brilliant at exposing this insidious cult. Please don’t stop posting – your posts are well thought out (unlike Watchtower doctrine) and intelligently written and I for one am glad you brought up the issue you did (I only watched a few minutes of the YouTube clip and I knew there was something that didn’t feel quite right. It was only when you brought it up that the penny dropped).
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:03 am
Charles Constante…
“J*L*C*R, I would have been very upset if Lloyd had made those comments to me, so I understand how you feel. He can come across as arrogant and is often sarcastic and quite defensive when contradicted…”
I feel like I’ve slipped into an alternate reality where the most innocent, innocuous reply can be interpreted as a scathing insult.
Let’s recap… I told J*L*C*R he was “easily troubled” by Brie’s use of the phrase “Jehovah Witnesses” rather than “Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
When J*L*C*R said he felt insulted by my “easily troubled” comment, I told him he was “easily insulted.”
Am I missing something? Where are the upsetting comments I am alleged to have made?
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:41 am
Lloyd, you are very sensitive about any criticism directed at you but you don’t seem to show the same sensitivity with others. The fact of the matter is that J*L*C*R was upset by the comment you made and so would I if it had been directed at me. Maybe we’re both oversensitive! As I said earlier, you’re brilliant at what you do and that’s really what’s important.
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:48 am
Thank you Charles, but though I hate to press you on this, are you able to explain to me precisely what about my two brief comments to J*L*C*R was so upsetting?
I plead guilty as charged to not pulling punches and taking no prisoners with my comments both here and on YouTube. I am a writer and activist, not a politician. I am looking to get my point across, not win a popularity contest. If someone writes something that is silly, I will tell them so. But I can’t help but scratch my head that anything in my “easily troubled” and “easily insulted” comments to J*L*C*R could be a genuine cause of upset to an adult with standard comprehension skills.
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:23 am
Lloyd, to tell someone that he is “easily insulted” is a criticism in anyone’s book. It may be like water off a duck’s back to some but others take those sorts of comments to heart. We’re all different – what more can I say! I thought J*L*C*R brought up a very valid point because it’s the sort of thing that JW apologists will latch onto to try and discredit what Brie had to say. It’s now been thrashed out and hopefully put to rest.
I’ll say again that I think you’re doing an amazing job of discrediting the Watchtower. I wish I had your skill of communication (I also wish I knew how to use emoticons on this site – I’m not very literate when it comes to computers).
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:37 am
“Lloyd, to tell someone that he is ‘easily insulted’ is a criticism in anyone’s book.”
A criticism can be justified or unjustified. If my ‘crime’ was that of criticizing J*L*C*R, then J*L*C*R is guilty of the same crime towards Brie, whether his criticism was justified or not.
I would actually say my “easily troubled” comment was more of an observation than a criticism, but even if you categorize it as criticism it can’t by any reasonable stretch be deemed “upsetting” unless getting upset is your default reaction to any kind of criticism, no matter how mild.
J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:20 am
Lloyd, (my comment is long but please read all of it)
This is how myself and others took your comment.
“easily troubled’= someone who gets troubled over the most minor things.
“easily insulted”= implies being a prima-dona.
“But I can’t help but scratch my head that anything in my “easily troubled” and “easily insulted” comments to J*L*C*R could be a genuine cause of upset to an ADULT WITH STANDARD COMPREHENSION SKILLS.
An Adult With Standard Comprehension Skills= You are implying that due to my (and others) interpretation of the facts I am either an (a) immature individual and therefore lacking in standard comprehension skills; or (b) I am an adult with some form of metal handicap. (That strikes a nerve because we both know who else says such things)
Either way my point was this…I have not seen this young woman’s sources and due to this lack of evidence; I refuse to take HER WORD at face value. I just left a religion that encouraged me to just accept things on blind faith..I WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN. I WILL NEVER BE A VICTIM EVER AGAIN.
What’s the difference between Lett giving a speech with unsubstantiated claims and a teary eyed young girl giving one…other than the subject matter and physical appearances? To me when I hear an argument, I need to examine just the facts presented and leave bias out of it.
A statement without proof no matter who it comes from, I don’t care if Ghandi made one, it’s still unsubstantiated.
Your comments carry more weight than anyone else’s because I look up to you. How would you like it if your hero implied your someone who takes things too literally.When you idolize them for examining everything before accepting them as truth.
Coming from anyone else I would have ignored them, but I hold you to a higher standard, Lloyd.
We all better hope this doesn’t turn out to be a hoax; or we will be eating crow for life. Until I see the facts for myself, I will not stake my reputation on ANYTHING…or ANYONE. I did that for the Governing Body once on just BLIND FAITH and I WILL NEVER do anything like that EVER AGAIN.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:37 am
I find it absolutely astonishing that comments such as “you’re easily troubled” or “you’re easily offended” can be interpreted as insults or causes for offense by anyone – and may I take this opportunity, J*L*C*R, to note that you were rightly apologetic and acknowledging your readiness to be offended before Mr Constante came riding in with his rebuke.
I find it equally baffling that my paint-by-numbers explanation of why “you’re easily troubled” and “you’re easily insulted” are not insults or legitimate reasons for upset is now being re-examined with a verbose admonishment by a poster who was so recently ready to forget it all, and who now insinuates that I am victimizing him and accusing him of being immature and mentally retarded.
I appeal to all reasonable-minded visitors to adjudicate – have I done anything to justify any of these protests against my two three-word comments, or have I drifted into an alternate dimension where “you’re easily troubled/insulted” are scathing acts of humiliation that merit strong admonition and an apology?
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:08 pm
Cedars, since you asked for another opinion–I thought your comments were insulting. Where I come from, if you tell a person they are “easily offended” or “easily insulted” it implies they are weak-minded, without back-bone. They aren’t tough enough to deal with reality. That’s the implication. Whether or not that is true is beside the point, obviously no one wants to be thought of as having a weak mind. Indeed, whenever I have referred to someone in the congregation as “easily stumbled” it was meant as an insult. That’s my take.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Thanks Finn, that’s one opinion – hopefully not the final verdict (unless I really have fallen into an alternate universe where the slightest contradiction is viewed as a scathing attack).
Given the fact that there are already two people who think “You’re easily troubled” and “You’re easily insulted” are hurtful, upsetting and offensive comments, it doesn’t surprise me that there can be a third visitor to this site with a tenuous grasp on the definition of “insult.” I dare say there are more, but in a way I’m pleased to be able to put a name to you all.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:23 pm
Hi Lloyd. I also commented but it got mixed in the middle of all the comments as I wanted to put my two cents worth in on the discussion. Thanks
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:39 pm
Thanks anonymous. This isn’t the first time people have emerged from nowhere to whip up a storm in a teacup on JWsurvey. I’m keeping tabs on the situation, and so far I’m unimpressed by one poster’s talmudic fixation with correcting Brie’s terminology, followed by his enthusiasm to find offense in my completely innocuous comments, followed by the u-turn on his apology prompted only by another poster riding to his rescue. Classic apologist behavior, if it’s not too insulting for me to say.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:47 pm
I think if a person can dish it out, they should be able to take it too.
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 12:52 pm
I can’t argue with you there. J*L*C*R seems to want the luxury, indeed demand the luxury, of being able to discredit what others say while having his own opinions held as sacrosanct.
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:05 pm
Cedars
I think you may be easily offended and may have a tenuous grasp of what constitutes insulting language. I’m going to remember that about you.
Can you take what you dish out?
Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:45 pm
Finn “Can you take what you dish out?”
Can I take being told “you’re easily troubled” and “you’re easily offended” without writing voluminous replies stating how offended I am?
Yes, very easily – because neither of those statements are insults.
anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:24 pm
@Finn, did you go back and read J*L*C*R’s initial comments about Brie’s speech? Just because this person doesn’t trust anybody anymore, doesn’t mean that he had to imply that Brie’s speech was all lies. It was really insulting to her. Why is it okay for this person to insult that young girl like that just because he doesn’t trust people anymore?
J*L*C*R says that you can’t believe every story so that should go for J*L*C*R as well. Why should he be believed anymore than Brie should not be believed? Why is it okay for him to do that to Brie and not take the same treatment?
When I saw Brie’s speech for the first time, I couldn’t believe what a powerful witness it was for not getting involved in the JW religion. I was blown away by her speech and so were hundreds of thousands of others. Any speech calling into question her honesty has to be just plan jealousy and nothing else. It was calling attention to themselves and taking away the attention where it belongs on the courage of that young girl.
If there is such a thing as a David and Goliath story where this young lady brings down the Society, it is this video and I am rooting for her to win and she needs all of our support. She doesn’t need any detractors.
Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 6:02 pm
I’m just mirroring Lloyd’s comments to myself and others. I’m not worried he’ll be offended, since he doesn’t regard them as insults. With regard to Brie’s video, please see my earlier post on Brie’s video. I’m not impressed and I’m not going to apologize for that simply to fit in with the majority.
You know, I appreciate what Lloyd has created here. Sometimes I really like this forum, but today is not one of those days. I apologize if I have contributed to that feeling for any others.
Excelsior! says:
June 3, 2015 at 5:49 am
Lloyd,
As Thomas Mann said, everything is politics!
You have decided to run a blog and make videos. You have decided to engage with the public about these issues.
You have a lot of people visiting and commenting on this site, many of whom have been badly scarred through their dealings with the WTBTS.
To be met by your often blunt (not rude) comments can be a further kick in the teeth for these unfortunate people.
If you want to be considered an expert in cult mind control, and play a leading part in exposing the WTBTS’ many abuses, you are going to have to learn to be diplomatic in your comments.
You cannot assume that, because you are not offended by plain speaking, that others will not be.
As a fellow atheist, we may not like having bible verses quoted at us, but one comes to mind.
Speak consolingly to the depressed souls.
I can’t remember where that is in the bible, but it’s good advice for all of us.
I think that you are a good man, and that your site and videos are excellent. But sometimes you can inadvertently upset people with your less than diplomatic language.
This is especially the case when people look up to you, and so your words carry more weight than others.
See this as a positive thing, Lloyd. You are helping a lot of people and those people have been hurt badly by uncaring cultists.
Please try to think how you would feel when you were just waking up if someone spoke to you the way you talk to people.
If you want to progress in your activism, then inevitably you will have to become involved in politics. Politicians will have to either see that existing laws are properly applied, or make fresh legislation to counter the WTBTS.
I, too, can be less than diplomatic on occasion. I have to re read my comments, and edit them before I post them.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 1:54 am
Saying that somebody is “easily troubled” or saying that somebody is “easily insulted” is nothing in comparison to saying that a young girl’s speech is nothing but lies. Now there’s a real insult. Lloyd is completely right in what he said. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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just asking says:
May 30, 2015 at 11:11 pm
Once upon a time someone told me to always ask questions but refused me to question him.
Ref: Bible teach chap 1 par 1-5.
How is that called in English? double standards?
What would that make the GB.
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Innocent Son says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:02 am
I read all the comments with great interest.You see this open honest debate would not be allowed in the Org, indeed some would probably be marked, reproved and even removed…Remember please though that we are all human and do make mistakes, so let’s not get to distracted about what Brie, may or may not have said…Let us not be overly critical, just try to put ourselves in this poor girls’ shoes and think about how much bravery it must of took….Hopefully we’re all on this site for the same reason.To expose this lying, greedy, Cult and help others to break free….Shalom
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:59 am
Dear Brie, you and your mother are truly an inspiration to anyone who has the courage to stand up to the Society and this song is for you and your mom and every young person coming onto this web site.
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Ted says:
May 31, 2015 at 7:23 am
In the 50s there was a sister in our cong, who served in place
of a ministerial servant. She also sat in on the COs meetings
and he made no bones about saying she was the best servant
among us. She “Manned” the literature counter.
Of course the line was drawn against making her appointment
official. And as soon as some brothers field service reports
contained the required quotas, she was removed, and he was
given her position. The patriarchal sexist mentality prevailed
That lady qualified in an exemplary way and filled all the
requirements save one, — She wasn’t a man!
In the workplace today that situation would not be tolerated
and would result in expensive litigation if practiced.
Only in extremist, fundamental religions do these backward
ideas persist.
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Finn Sawyer says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:22 am
@Ted
My grandmother was one of the servants in the 40’s or 50’s. When she was alive, she retained more knowledge of the Bible and history than any male I ever knew in our hall. As a kid I remember hearing that she was counseled on more than one occasion for following up the brother’s comments with correcting comments at the Watchtower study. Never rebelled and left outright though. Wish she had.
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Ted says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:41 am
@ Finn Sawyer.
Ladies like your Grandma, were the backbone of the cong,
and I’m sure they still are. I always thought the sisters were
more spiritual.
Your Grandma correcting the Brothers made me smile.
In one of the local Congs, there was an old “Remnant Bro,
and during the public talk, if he disagreed with something
he would let you know. He would shake his head and could
be heard telling those around him what the right interpretation
was. To say it was disconcerting is putting it mildly.
When he died I helped clear out his house. His stuff was sold
and the money sent to the Org, that he had devoted his life to.
A waste on both counts, and sad.
Nice to hear your experience, thanks for sharing.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:13 am
@J*L*C*R, Lloyd’s comment was a whole lot nicer than the one that I wanted to leave for you. Everything in your first comment was saying that Brie was making up the whole thing. This is how you started out:
“If” she has been in it so long…how come she makes the mistake of “constantly” (She didn’t CONSTANTLY say Jehovah Witnesses like you said) calling them “Jehovah Witnesses” when it’s “Jehovah’s Witnesses” (PLURAL). Being a born and raised witness (This should have been a Capital W at the front of Witness as long as you are being so nit-picky) because the word Witness is a PROPER NOUN WHICH YOU EVIDENTLY DIDN’T REALIZE AND SHOULD HAVE KNOWN IF YOU REALLY WERE A WITNESS SUCH A LONG TIME AS YOU CLAIM), disfellowshipped or otherwise, should know how to properly pronounce their old religion, particularly one so affected as Brie. This is how I would determine if someone was truthful or not…(IF again) if they trip up over the important small details should this affect their credibility? I believe her, but man that just troubles me.”
Everything in your first comment was calling Brie a liar and it was very insulting to her. We didn’t hear the experiences of the 3 women in the first person that she talked about but everything else she said is Watchtower policy and IF YOU HAD BEEN A WITNESS SUCH A LONG TIME AS YOU CLAIM, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT. When it comes to the women’s stories, there are plenty of experiences on Youtube to confirm that these things happen to women over and over again in the “truth” and if you have really woken up like you say, then you would know that those experiences are believable.
I for one thought that Lloyd’s comment was a whole lot nicer than how your entire comment was calling into question Brie’s truthfulness and I was glad he said something to you because I thought your comment was really insulting to this young girl that took tons of courage to do what she did. Did you ever do anything to even compare?????
In my first comment to you, I was holding back because I wanted to reply just as Pickled Brain did but I wanted to give you the benefit of a doubt.
This is how you could have worded that comment of yours if you had doubts like you did and if you really did “believe” her like you claimed:
I loved her speech but Watchtower apologists will pick on it because she said “Jehovah Witnesses” instead of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (That would not have raised red flags to us like it did for me.
I had a hard time believing that you are a fader like you said because you sure sounded like a Watchtower apologist to me.)
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:20 pm
@Anonymous, I wish I had you around me when I need some words of wisdom. You nailed it. It’s not the question that was raised it’s the way in which it was written. Great point. My husband always tells me that same thing when I’m wondering why I have offended someone. That there was nothing wrong with what I said it’s the way that I deliver it at times. It’s probably because of my upbringing. I came from a large family of girls & we just said things how we saw it, I’ve had to become more ‘politically correct’ with my approach to people because I realised that they had a different upbringing to me.
We can all come across the wrong way with words on a monitor, that’s why I think face to face contact is so much better when it comes to sorting out differences.
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:24 pm
That’s where I admire Lloyd, he has put his face to his words. I hope that I can reach that point some day soon. I live in a very small community & I still have trouble going shopping & seeing Witnesses that I have known for last 20years & worry about the way that they view me. It’s pathetic but I’m trying to grow a spine & move to the next phase.
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Grace says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:30 pm
Also, that’s why Brie is viewed so highly by people like me. So young & yet in an age bracket where you’re so self-conscious about everything. She has made me want to be open to people in my area about where I stand on matters instead of curtailing to the WT. That’s what makes me angry at this religion because I never used to be like this.
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Swallowtail says:
May 31, 2015 at 1:05 pm
Brie showed exceptional courage and intelligence in exposing the inner workings on being a JW youth.I meant to mention that earlier, but was caught up in all the flurry of comments. Isn’t it ironic that they train youths to be bold and courageous in the face of immense opposition only to have it backfire. I just love that…..
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:07 pm
J*L*C*R you may not like some of the responses you got to your opinions but at least your opinions made it to the point where people could read them.
I wrote a medium length comment that never made it to the point where it could be read. I will submit this and see if this makes it. By the way my comment complied with Cedars posting rules.
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:18 pm
Yew, the above comment made it. I wonder what happened to my other one. Did it somehow get lost in the system?
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Awake at last says:
May 31, 2015 at 2:20 pm
It was meant to say “yes” not “yew”. How come all these comments are making it but not my original one?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:26 pm
Apparently, (I must be going into an alternate reality like Lloyd) when someone takes the neutral ground and states the simple fact that if a person makes a series of statements without meeting the appropriate burdens of proof; then they are by immediate default Watchtower Apologists.
EXAMPLE
…well the watchtower says one thing and another individual says another, this person is against the Watchtower; therefore, the standards of proof don’t apply. Let’s all agree with what’s being said despite a lack of evidence to support the argument… just because the person goes against the Watchtower.
Dare say… if anyone does not want to take either extreme viewpoint but tries to calmly examine the facts in front of them, as the arguer presented them… while maintaining neutrality from their personal feelings AGAINST the Watchtower… they must be watchtower apologists.
To not immediately accept any argument that highlights the evilness of the Watchtower is folly. (NOTE: The watchtower is evil…they destroy lives and families but to accept every story that arises without looking at the facts presented is foolishness)
Is it me, or I am the only one person that recognizes the universal fact for all intelligentsia; the BURDEN OF PROOF lies with the person making the argument. Brie made a good speech but until concrete facts are presented, I am not willing to believe her. I am also not willing to believe the Watchtower and Governing Body when they present an argument without proof.
When we listen to a scientist present a new theory, we expect him to bring FACTS to the discussion; not second and third hand stories. It makes for a great story but I don’t base my opinions off other people’s opinions and stories. That’s all Jehovah’s Witnesses do, base their opinions off the Governing Body’s opinions. Since I left the Watchtower, I base my opinions on FACTS.
All I am saying…and I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST…. is to believe someone’s argument, when no solid proof or facts have been presented, (other than THEIR WORD) is no different than believing in something the Governing Body has said. Neither has presented Evidence.
Why should we not carry the same standards of scrutiny to every side that arises? Not just the ones we like or agree with the most?
It’s like saying “J*L*C*R says that he is staying neutral until more facts arise and in the mean time he is refusing to go to either extreme of the argument…he must be an apologist. Grab your torch and pitchforks and destroy his comments with fire!”
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:14 pm
J*L*C*R, I don’t believe everything I hear or read either. If you are having a hard time thinking that such terrible abuse of women happens in the Society, Lloyd had 2 really good articles right on this web site under domestic abuse. Look on the right side near the top. One of the articles is called: Danmera Dinglebum Why did it take so long and the other article is called: Won Without a Word – At what Cost?
The Watchtower has had many many articles over the years about when a wife is being beaten that she is to be a “better wife” and then the man won’t beat on her. If you don’t believe it, you should go to those articles and read them first. Lloyd has many many places that you can go to Watchtower literature to back it up. Women have always been treated as “nothings” and you must be a man because if you were a woman, I think you would understand. It is hard for men to know what it feels like if it isn’t you being treated like a “nothing”.
When it comes to rape, there are multiple articles in the magazines and books and even the Young People Ask book that when someone is raped, that they will be called before a committee so that they can determine if it was fornication or not. There’s tons of articles on that too if you don’t believe it.
At least you came out and admitted you didn’t believe Brie. In your first comment, you said you did believe her, remember?
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J*L*C*R says:
May 31, 2015 at 4:50 pm
I do not believe Brie ONLY because there is not enough evidence to support what she has said in her argument.
I do believe in the Watchtower’s crimes against Women and the suppression of their rights. The reasons for this are two fold (1) I was born into a long line of JW’s my Grandmother became involved in 1939; both of my parents were Witnesses and raised me as one when I came along in 1993. I was then baptized in 2007 and have since become inactive. I know firsthand from myself and from my family; instances of physical, mental, and spiritual abuse on profound levels.
The second reason is because of the hard work Lloyd, and others have put forth in providing full proof articles on the topic. Just like the articles you have mentioned; ones with plenty of evidence to prove their point.
Just for the sake of clarity…the only reason I do not believe Brie, the person, is because I do not know her and therefore cannot simply take her word on something without proper documentation and/or proof to back up what she is saying.
I do believe in the Watchtower’s abuse on Women for previously stated reasons.
I hope this clears the water.
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anonymous says:
May 31, 2015 at 5:57 pm
What parts of her speech did you not believe?
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:54 pm
J*L*C*R – nobody is accusing you of being an apologist merely for questioning Brie’s story – at least I’m not.
The accusation arises from your insistence on repeatedly driving home your disapproval of Brie’s story with an almost evangelical enthusiasm rather than simply stating your case and leaving it there for the record. You further fit the mold of apologist by creating discord from nowhere by accusing me of being oppressive and insulting merely for disagreeing with you, and first apologizing for being so thin-skinned before picking up the gauntlet once more when another poster rallies to your side. This “stirring” behavior is precisely what apologists do. The most devout Jehovah’s Witness can justify saying bad things about Watchtower while hiding behind a pseudonym on the internet, so I’m afraid making token statements of solidarity with our cause doesn’t let you off the hook.
If you don’t want to be suspected of being an apologist, please try to refrain from stirring up trouble and recoiling with disgust at the mildest provocation. I’m afraid I will have to ask you to regard that as a final warning.
And I can’t help but notice the irony of you complaining about the lack of veracity of Brie’s anecdotal evidence while regaling us all with your own unverifiable stories of “physical, mental, and spiritual abuse on profound levels.” Again, it seems to be one rule for you, another for everyone else.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:41 am
Last night I came to a realization that I would like to share with all of you.
Since Lloyd first posted this article and my subsequent comments, I have had so many sleepless nights. I couldn’t quite put a finger on what was bothering me but last night it hit me like a ton of bricks.
What bothered me so much about Brie’s story was the fact that it brought up so many memories and emotions that had long since been buried deep down.
My awakening from the Watchtower was a series of massive heartbreaking moments after the other. I have never experienced anything so traumatic in my entire life. It tore me down to my most exposed level of humanity and left me and my family with a feeling of abandonment and victimization.
Last night I faced all of these memories and as I think back; I feel as if a great weight has been lifted off of me.
Please understand that I was born and raised an ardent witness. Some of my earliest childhood memories are my family reading the “My Book of Bible Stories” I’m sure everyone remembers that hardback yellow book with the ruby red letters on the cover.
We all fervently believed in the paradise earth. Then to suddenly realize, what you’ve grown up with is a massive lie and a cult as well. It was awful.
I’m not ashamed to say this….
Last night I cried for myself, my parents, the promises and trust that was broken. Then I just cried.
One things I want to say is that this site has helped me in so many ways. The articles woke me up and now the comments section has allowed me to overcome a great crucible and become a better person as I finally put my past behind me.
I would like to thank the following for their helpful debates, kind words of encouragement and their frankness.
Anonymous
Pickled Brain
Grace
Lloyd Evans
I would like to apologize to you, Lloyd. I am sure you noticed my conflict with my comments. Please know that they came from a young man who was struggling to address what really bothered him. You can say my awakening process has left me damaged goods…I don’t know what to believe in anymore. I’m just not strong enough to go through anything like that a second time.
Most of all I would like to thank and apologize to Brie. If Brie is listening, please know that you helped a young man leave a self destructive path that would have left me going to a dark place of depression and worse.
Thank you all! I am sorry I made such a horse’s tail out of myself during this whole transition…just know that now I think I am a better person for it. Please accept my sincerest apologies and know that each of you have helped me take another step forward in healing.
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Cedars says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:05 am
Apology accepted. I hope you’re feeling more settled soon.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:18 am
Thank you, Lloyd. :)
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:09 am
J*L*C*R, I want to reach out through cyber space and give you a big hug!
Waking up from this cult is like going through the mourning of the the death of everything that was dear to us. If you have ever lost a cherished pet or a loved one, it is hard to live through that and losing your entire support system or “family” in the “truth”, is even worse than that. All we can do is be glad that we finally found out the real truth about the truth and didn’t die in the religion, like countless millions of people have already done.
Last year and the year before I also had a terrible experience in what I thought was the “truth” and in a way I am glad that it happened because it helped me to wake up or else I’d still be living in the Watchtower bubble. It was a hard pill to swallow that all the “love” that I thought I had was “nothing” as Brie said in her speech but I am actually happier than I ever was when I was going to meetings and in service and I think I knew in my heart of hearts that all the love in the Organization is conditional and I think I am worth more than that and so are you. We are all worth real friends, not fake friends that only “love” us if we jump through all the hoops to be “good enough for them”.
You can be so glad you didn’t waste your entire life in the religion like so many of us have done.
Be glad about that!!!
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J*L*C*R says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:35 am
Thank you so much, anonymous! Your kind words of support really mean a lot to me. Thank you.
It’s nice to know that there are others who know what it’s like.
:)
anonymous says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:49 am
Hang in there J*L*C*R, it gets better. We are all here to support each other. I don’t know how to make a smiley face but I am sending you a smiley face too!
danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 5:40 pm
Your words ring true to all former jw cult members. I lost over 30 years of my life to flim-flam men of the Tower.
I have been out for more than 30 years but the scars still fester. We do feel your pain.
Somehow I believe that when Brie reads your comments….all will be well and good. Thanks for expressions from the heart…
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Excelsior! says:
June 1, 2015 at 2:44 pm
JLCR,
Sir/Madam,
You do realise that this was a school assignment, don’t you?
Did you expect her to have court documents, or witness statements? This was not originally conceived of as a video.
This young lady was obviously upset, and so she fumbled the name of the religion, big deal!
Folks,
May I suggest to all of us to read our comments back BEFORE we post them? We need to think of how our words are going to be read by other people.
Lloyd does a great line in passive aggressive put downs. It’s part of his Northern heritage. It has ruffled quite a few feathers, but he does not deserve some of the vitriol that he has received.
Anything can be taken as an insult by somebody. Lloyd is not rude, he is merely sometimes brutally frank!
I hope that we can all learn to treat others with courtesy and try to all get along.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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danman says:
May 31, 2015 at 3:35 pm
Think maybe Gnashing did his job? A true hit and run hijacking of Brie’s thread.
He is the one that is laughing. Sorry Brie.
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Exhausted says:
May 31, 2015 at 8:38 pm
I am currently watching in the US a series on the Amish.
the shunning factor is too similar to the Jws. I think you
People are arguing over semantics that amount to nothing
But let us get back to the seriousness of family break-ups
And the pain of women who are treated like chattel. The
Loss of friends because of rules and regulations that amount to nothing. I Personally have a life in dreams only
And that is pathetic. I still love the friends I left behind,
But cannot allow myself to go back.
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Charles Costante says:
May 31, 2015 at 10:48 pm
“…………. before Mr Constante came riding in with his rebuke”
“…… another poster riding to his rescue.”
Not only has my name changed from ‘Charles’ to ‘Mr Constante’, but I appear to have learned equestrianism overnight. All while I was sleeping!!!
Lloyd, when I first starting reading this blog I cringed at some of the responses you made to “real” apologists. They were simply rude and arrogant (I don’t think that many of them deserved it – they are brainwashed like you and I were), but I got over it because I thought you were doing an amazing job of exposing this cult. I respect you for that. You say that you’re not a politician and not here to win a popularity contest, but when you’re dealing with other people a bit of sensitivity wouldn’t go astray. I just want to say that I won’t be posting anymore but will continue to read your articles with interest. Good luck with your mission.
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Cedars says:
May 31, 2015 at 11:39 pm
Thank you for your continued endorsement of my activism Charles. However, it seems beyond your comprehension that you are just as capable of making ill-advised comments and backing the wrong horse as anyone else, including me. I also can’t help but notice your willingness to quote me when I DO say something remotely incriminating, when curiously you weren’t so quick to quote me when you first began accusing me of being insulting merely for saying “You’re easily troubled” and “You’re easily insulted.”
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danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 6:52 am
Perhaps the administrator of this site would be so kind as to place comments in chronological order?
There are discussions going on about posts that no longer appear. Time stamps that do not reflect real time responses.
I hope Brie can overlook all this display of egotism and childish bickering, she did not deserve the above.
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Cedars says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:11 am
Hello Danman
Unfortunately the webmaster and I have busy lives outside of our activism, and the time to sort all the comments into chronological order where this doesn’t occur by default is a luxury neither of us have. I can only ask that you make the best of the situation, bearing in mind that this is a blog that people feel inclined to use as a discussion forum rather than vice versa.
Thank you in advance for your patience and understanding.
Lloyd
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danman says:
June 1, 2015 at 2:48 pm
A fluke is a fluke…no worries.
Seems as though any comments section directly following a ‘blog article’, by their very nature, should be presented in a chronological format, thus helping to reduce what has transpired here on your excellent ‘blog’ account of Brie’s triumph.
Maybe your default button needs a bit of tweaking? If not just ignore my ‘comment’. Thanks for responding.
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Lori says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:04 am
Sorry for what she went through, but how long could she have been a Jehovah’s Witness and seen these things, if she can’t even pronounce it right? Not “Jehovah Witness” (said several times)
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Lori says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:11 am
[Evangelical comment removed, see posting guidelines]
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Ted says:
June 1, 2015 at 9:21 am
To state that you believe a persons statement. Then in the
very next breath to claim you’re “Troubled” ,on some basis,
about the validity of their statement, is plainly contradictory.
It sound like, ( and I put it no stronger than that.). Someone
who mischievously tries to sully another persons reputation
by an oblique inference. A circumstance. I’m sure we’ve
all encountered many times.
We all have a right to doubt and to question, and it’s sound
practice to do so. But I think we need more than supposition,
that’s based on the flimsiest of reasons, before we cast
suspicion on another persons character.
Brie’s video seems absolutely authentic, to me. Obviously
for certain reasons it’s not wise to to give names and addresses.
And where the WTS, is concerned, documentary evidence,
is almost impossible , even for the law courts to get.
The experiences she relates, as to how some sisters were dealt
with. Accords well with how some body’s of elders would apply
the instructions in the “Shepherding the Flock of God” book.
Brie lifted my spirits, and it makes me sad to see doubts cast
on her integrity. By hairsplitting and unnecessary comments.
Reply
j brown says:
June 1, 2015 at 11:41 am
Anyone have the current youtube view count?
Reply
Ohforgoodnesssake says:
June 1, 2015 at 4:34 pm
Well I just want to add to the earlier discussion. Brie did indeed use the word Jehovah Witness, and also she uses the word church. But I tell you what……….she really did the organisation down. I think anyone watching that video, will not be left in the slightest doubt, that JW’s are truly conditioned, and not in a good way. I don’t think her use of acceptable words for her audience will detract from her message.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
June 1, 2015 at 8:49 pm
While we never referred to the KH as “church” within JW circles I would use that word in conversation for non-witnesses so they would understand what I was referring to. It was just so much easier to say “church” than have to explain why our weird religion demonizes words like church and insists on bizarre nomenclature. I think it made sense for Brie to use it, if she had used KH it would have distracted the audience from her other message.
Reply
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Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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← Watchtower’s influence comes under scrutiny in family court
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid →
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
avatar
Posted on May 26, 2015
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
A tearful Brie gives a brave speech in front of her classmates in a video that would later go viral
Chances are if you’re reading this you are one of the 536,000 (and counting!) people who has already seen a remarkable video by a courageous schoolgirl named Brie.
Brie, a senior at Lincoln High School in Manitowoc, Wisconsin, was given an assignment with the rest of her classmates to deliver a “persuasive speech.”
“[The teacher] pointed out that speeches are much more persuasive when you’re using something you value to drive your ideas,” Brie later wrote on the Friendly Atheist blog. “It made me think about what I value in life and what my class needed to know about.”
When Brie gave her emotional speech she made sure one of her friends filmed it for her. She told her classmates of her experience growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness, including the negative impact of shunning on her family and the covering up of abuse she has witnessed among her friends.
The resulting video was uploaded less than a week ago, but it has already gone well-and-truly viral – even catching the attention of the UK’s respected Independent newspaper.
We can be thankful to Brie’s teacher, Mr Hansen, for handing Brie an assignment that has turned out to be truly educational, not just for her class, but for the whole world.
This brave 18-year-old girl has seized an opportunity to stand up to Watchtower, a sinister bully that exports misery on a global scale, and has utterly exposed and shamed it in front of over half a million people.
“It is a religion that preaches love and acceptance, but the reality is everything is conditional,” said Brie. “Love and acceptance is only extended as long as members practice absolute obedience and question nothing, ever. This religion destroys lives, destroys families and they do it largely unchecked… because they are really good at silencing the people who leave.”
Probably many ex-Witnesses like me will have felt a twinge of envy while watching these words spoken, simply because we too have been victimized by Watchtower and would have given anything to turn back the clock and take such a bold stand as teenagers.
But not many of us, myself included, were as courageous back then as Brie is now – and that is the crucial difference.
I cannot thank Brie enough for her inspirational words, and for taking such a powerful stand for her generation. Brie has done what any good activist does: she has taken the pain experienced by herself and others and turned it into something positive and productive by using it to raise awareness and thus spare others, not least her classmates, from what she has gone through.
The runaway success of Brie’s video highlights clearly that the Watchtower finds itself in a whole new ball game. The tables have well and truly turned.
Gone are the days when the Governing Body could withhold information from those tenacious and persistent enough to search for it. Gone are the days when they could stifle free thought, and keep young, intelligent people in silence and subjection.
The internet has changed everything. Now everybody has a voice if they will only summon the courage to use it. It is a privilege to see a brave young woman like Brie do just that, and find her voice with such stunning results.
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Further reading…
◾Independent article
◾Friendly Atheist article (by Brie herself)
◾Rawstory article
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238 Responses to Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
← Older Comments
Exhausted says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:40 pm
All my life, we called our meetings the hall, and really it was our church. I never referred to the Hall as anything else but…for the outsiders I did say my Church was the
Hall. All the workers and acquaintainces acknowledged
That. It is funny in retrospect how they somehow as
Drunk or as wierd as some of them were, they respected
Our lives, and called us do-rites. If They only knew the
Inner doubts and conlict that was there . If I helped any
One that is a coup. I on the other hand fell straight down
On my face. Always being the martyr. I Am tired. Do
Respect this little tiger for growling at the men we all feared and in so many ways. Bless you all…
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 3:22 am
Even though the Society wanted us all to think that the word church was a bad word, this is the mean from the Webster’s dictionary for church:
Church as a noun: l: a building for public and esp. Christian worship 2: the clergy or officialdom of a religious body 3: a body or organization of religious believers: as a: the whole body of Christians b: Denomination c: Congregation 4: a public divine worship 5: the clerical profession
Church as an adjective: 1: of or relating to a church 2: of or relating to the established church
Reply
Rosie says:
June 2, 2015 at 4:17 am
The use of “Church” was never used when I was in the Org. However that seems to have changed now. I was called upon recently by a pioneer sister who did not know who I was – she used “Church” several times during her presentation to me, and I am aware that this terminology to describe the KH has been said to others who have been witnessed to.
Reply
James Broughton says:
June 2, 2015 at 5:00 am
The Watchtower always used to use the word ‘religion’ in a bad sense but now seems to have softened its stance, or, at least, sees itself as the only true religion.
Reply
Ted says:
June 2, 2015 at 8:33 am
When my daughter was to be married at the K hall. She
managed to get it announced on national radio, and the
DJ pronounced the venue as the “Ringdom ” Hall.
Which I thought had a nice ring to it, and appropriate for
a wedding.
It crossed my mind at the time, how little was known about
JWs. The WT, articles were proclaiming how the worlds
attention was focussed on us. How we were a thorn in their
flesh and the governments of the world would be angry and
try to annihilate us.
It’s all so silly , how could I ever have believed it? However
even though they are insignificant, compared to their own
estimation, and the world doesn’t give a toss about them.
They are a life destroying cult, many times in a literal way.
So it’s good that more facts are being made known about
them, on sites like this and on You Tube. Brie’s video is a
great contribution to this end.
Reply
Elka Tire says:
June 2, 2015 at 12:06 pm
Hello,
You can get the spanish subtitles for this video in this path:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59436690/Sp-subtitles.rar
El Kato
Reply
Silent admirer says:
June 3, 2015 at 12:45 am
Great going Bree. It is because of people like you and Cedars we get the hope that our loved ones can be pulled out of this rabid cult. My cousin is trapped in this cult for the past 7 years. Considering this cult is a minuscule percent of my country’s population (India , 35K out of 1 billion) , this site has been immensely helpful in understanding JW’s for someone who is not from Christian background. Hope my cousin learns the truth about the Truth soon.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 3, 2015 at 6:42 am
@Silent Admirer . Nice comment & VALID point about only 35,000 JWs in India with population of 1 Billion . NEVER in a Billion years will those 35,000 give a Witness to everyone SO Jehovah will have to READ HEARTS of over 2 and Half Billion people come Armageddon . So WHY Doesnt Jehovah Bring ARMAGEDDON today & read everyone’s Heart, because IT Would SAVE a LOT OF HEARTBREAK & SUFFERING to All those who are MILLIONS DYING of MALNUTRITION ,WATER BORN DISEASES ,MALARIA,HEART DISEASE ,CANCERS,STROKES,WARS,EARTHQUAKES,TSUNAMIS,ETC !!!
SO WHY DOES JEHOVAH PERPETUATE SUFFERING as HE is GOING TO HAVE to READ HEARTS Anyway ????? SO WHY NOT READ THEM TODAY !! The LAST DAYS Have GONE on LONG ENOUGH !!! UNLESS the 607 bce to 1914 Ce interpretation is WRONG??? We ALL KNOW HUMAN GOVERNMENTS CANT RULE PROPERLY !!!
PERISH the THOUGHT …, COULD the 7 GB in Brooklyn be WRONG???!
Reply
Elka Tire says:
June 3, 2015 at 9:27 am
Cedar,
If you want to add the spanish subtitles you can download the file in:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59436690/Sp-subtitles.rar
El Kato
Reply
Exhausted says:
June 3, 2015 at 11:04 am
Just a while ago I heard a clip from a Fritz Springmier
Who did extensive research on the beginnings of the Society. It was mentioned by him that the Rothchilds
Funded Charles and as for the name Kingdom Hall, the
Hall part was from the Freemasons. It is just a thought
That sort of pulls the bloodlines together little by little.
Don’t quote me. I am just the messenger. A very tired one.Ha.
Reply
just asking says:
June 3, 2015 at 10:58 pm
Kingdom hell, hole, whole, hall, church or whatever, don’t worry abt them. I understand some are getting sold. Now that is what I call the good news of the kingdom. Then maybe be we could sale off the Jehovah witness brand. Maybe Tony should fire the rest of the F&DS doesn’t the Bible refer to a single slave? or were they 7? Didn’t the 7 fire the “remnant”? Well, I mean we don’t believe in the Trinity, why believe in a “sevenity”? It is all abt to come to an end.
Reply
Thinking of leaving says:
June 4, 2015 at 12:56 pm
I think watchtower needs more people like this standing up to them.
Reply
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2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate "valuable things"
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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105 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
Newer Comments →
X Leonhart says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:41 pm
It’s really disgusting to hear those parents words…
I have two daughters and nothing in this world could make me leave them alone, no matter what they could do, I’ll be there to help them.
It’s horrible to see how cruel and cynical this cult is…
Reply
DAC says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Exactly. How could a parent ever say that there would ever be a situation where “they wouldn’t be there for them”. Awful.
Reply
Erik says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:11 am
I know personally not all JW parents will or can follow this. I never considered it. An elder and his wife have moved in with their DA’d son. They moved a distance from their old community. They have no intention of not helping him, they consider his issues, and they also have no intention of missing out on their grand-daughter’s life! His mother did tell me privately that she knows other JWs have other ideas, and so she doesn’t share her viewpoint with everyone. But she must have felt safe to share it with me. I know of another mother who refused to shun while her DF’d son struggled with addiction, quietly doing what she felt Jesus would do.
Reply
awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:41 am
Yes, but therein lies the issue. Everyone knows a Jdub that doesn’t agree with one policy or another, but the fact is, they are doing it in defiance to what comes from the slave, and in effect, what comes from jehova.
My parents are stuck in that quagmire now. I haven’t Da’d myself, so we can keep playing that silly little loophole, but things are strained between us because I clearly want nothing to do with the org. As such, they really don’t have anything to say or do with me.
Considering this draconian black and white ,”us versus them” nonsense keeps getting plugged into their brains, it’s a wonder we’re even cordial.
Simple human decency dictates that shunning someone over a disagreement is wrong, but when their god keeps telling them to do so (Deut. 13:6-9), their hands are tied in the matter.
Reply
Ejay says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:45 pm
The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.
This should be a solemn, mournful thing. No one should be congratulated or encouraged.
And regardless of what their son did, should wanting renewed association be his primary reason for returning or should it be love for God?
The ‘Society’ seems not to care, just as long as you come back and can be another number in a yearbook.
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ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:55 pm
RE: “The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.”
I’m not so sure that the entire assembly audience comprehends what is said from the platform.
At one assembly I attended, the speaker read a list of figures which indicated increases in whatever the category was: Field service hours, books placed, newly baptized, congregation attendance, numbers of pioneers — whatever. A round of applause followed each increased number announced.
Then the brother read a number that showed a decrease in one category and a round of applause followed. I and several others sat there silent as thousand of people applauded the decreased number.
I’m guessing that many, if not most, of the assembly delegates are totally numbed by the continual boredom that they aren’t really comprehending anything that is said from the stage.
Reply
Swallowtail says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:52 pm
So it wasn’t the child’s love for Jehovah that sucked him/her back in, it was the love for the parents. Isn’t that missing the point? How can those parents and audience stand there and not see the failed logic in that approach? OH and even better, lets make the mom in her grief continue to push her emotions aside and push on in the ministry to get more people to shun. How sad.
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awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:45 am
It’s never “love for jehova”. It’s never, “I missed giving talks and comments at the meeting.” In the end, it’s always “I couldn’t stand the loneliness and I just wanted my family back.”
When you’re in, they do a great job of instilling an insular mentality in your mind. So when you’re out, you’re nothing more than an island of one. You can’t make friends with “worldly people”, or trust them to any real extent. It’s really only a matter of time before you break down and come back.
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Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Wow this is amazing. How can you shun your family I will never understand or agree with it. It’s happening to me personally and to hear them say it’s hard for them wow so disgusting. How about you choose to love your child and do what you know is right. It’s pretty obvious that shunning is wrong and damaging but they actually think that they are right wow pathetic. Figure it out how can you not see through the propaganda of the org honestly…
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Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I almost vomited after seeing this. We all know that watchtower denies a policy of shunning. The only good to come out of the video is that it proves there is a shunning policy. It is an “own goal ” by watchtower. The cat is out of the bag. Conditional love is not love. You don’t need to be a psychiatrist to see that their reasons for the vile act came from
mentally disturbed minds.
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Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I was turned down twice in my judicial committee and the main thing they said was I was only doing it for my family and that wasn’t the right reason. So not ok for me but its ok for there kid…. Yeah so happy I’m chose to never go back to that cult !
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David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:05 pm
Sometimes I ask myself, how is possible that so many atrocities where committed in WWII? How is possible that the catholic church practiced the inquisition? I also ask myself how is possible that the jw.org is so potent in controlling people brains and behaviour to the point where parents shun family members for life. To even let children die for refusing a blood transfusion. Do they really believe those seven men are special? Come on! how can the JWs be so stupid and ignorant. These men are not special but the life of your son or daughter is special. If you inflict such a cruel punishment to a person it cannot be undone.
Jesus preached a message of freedom, where him alone is the master. Those seven lunatics enjoy having a superstar status and misinterpret the Christian message.
Your family members are a gift what the jw.orgs says is just guesses if not fabricated lies. Please JWs do some research and see yourself the amount of rubbish teaching these people have produced. Have you watched may jw tv broadcast and the amount of lies said by Mr Lett?
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j brown says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:13 pm
I can’t get over how goofy daddy Sutton looks and much of a basket-case mommy Sutton comes across. And then to have these two on the convention program. Simply laughable!
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:43 pm
It is also amazing the fake image that they portray of themselves. They really know the best in propaganda techniques.
If you watch their videos it looks like everything is perfect, the love in the organisation seems abundant. Come on JWs! is that what you really experience in your local congregation? I constantly heard complains of old people being neglected. I can see from my experience that the kingdom halls are full of depressed people. Young people are mostly apathetic and without real aim. Their greatest satisfaction is standing hours next to a JW cart advertising non sense. Playing videos explaing 1914, come on, that’s a joke. Non intelligent people can believe such a teaching made of unrelated scriptures pasted together.
When they talk about cart preaching they say that the results are amazing. I live in a big city and never seen such amazing interest from people. The JWs seems like part of the city landscape, like traffic lights, buses.
My collegues never talk about them, nobody talks about them. But for them everything they do is historic, is amazing!
I will never understand their mentality!
The JWs are famous for portraying themselves the best people on earth and the rest the worst people on earth. That is a complete lie. They are like anybody else with a bit of delusion.
Do you think people are amazed knowing that JW parent shun people that make the adult decision to follow a different path in life?
Do you think people get interested in the Bible when they know the amount of false interpretations taught by the JWs?
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Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:35 pm
@David,
So well put. Especially the fact that they will brag about how wonderful they are. Anyone knows that when someone has to spruce so much about themselves, there is something really lacking. A happy person doesn’t need to go around pronouncing how happy they are. A good person doesn’t need to tell people how good they are.
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John Chapman says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:45 pm
‘a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Matthew 10:36
For the son despises his father. The daughter defies her mother. The daughter-in-law defies her mother-in-law. Your enemies are right in your own household! Micah 7:6
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Rowland Nelken says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:24 pm
What is the significance or relevance of those Bible verses, John Chapman? Merely rejecting JW twaddle should not be a cause for enmity. Disagreement about religious doctrine certainly caused wars in Christendom’s blood soaked past, and is the spur to the horrors committed today by ISIS, Boko Haram and others. But to make an enemy of your child simply because they do not go along with your religious notions is nothing short of obscene. Please explain why you have printed those Bible verses. What possible relevance do they have to this horrible story?
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SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:46 pm
That is a really good video to circulate. It shows the pressure the organization puts on it’s members. I liked the part were the mom says “I told them if they ever left Jehovah I would have nothing to do with them.” Yup, because the organization IS God.
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SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:15 pm
The dad says that he needed to step back and let Jehovah discipline his child. Since the organization = God he is saying to give up parental ties and let the organization at the child. If you substitute Watch Tower for every time they say Jehovah that video gets even creepier.
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Finn Sawyer says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Lloyd,
Good read, and excellent exposure of this cruel practice. No natural affection, indeed. I would sooner die than do this to my kids. As of yet I have not been “discovered” by my family. As much as I’d like to spill the beans and try to bring them over, clear the air, I’m thinking I should stay a mystery after reading this.
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David says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:10 pm
According to them even if you are a good person with good standards, values and perhaps still a believer you should be shunned for life. If this isn’t madness what it is?
Honestly having parents so stupid and blind is a misfortune. I am really sorry for these people because one day they’ll release how stupid they are.
They are ruining people lives and precious family bonds for blind religious fanaticism and extremism.
How would they feel if everybody shuns them? if they loose their jobs?
If somebody decides to follow God it must be a spontaneous and a free decision not dictated of shameful mafia tactics.
Honestly when you see these things is better to turn page, because these people are brainwashed and cannot understand common sense. They are like possessed. They just listen to their seven american false gods that are all busy with gigantic materialist projects mocking Christ example.
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anonymous says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:32 pm
That video clearly shows that it wasn’t love for God or even the Organization that made that child come back “spiritually” but it was missed association with the family. How can those people be proud of that? You would think the first reason would be that he missed God if it really was the “truth”. I hope that kid gets himself reinstated and then stops going to meetings.
Hopefully when he gets a little older and can piece it all together in his mind, he will see that the love from his parents is conditional and shunning is nothing but blackmail and his parents are walking, talking, unfeeling brainless Watchtower zombies.
Reply
Dee says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:04 pm
I have to wonder if someone at Bethel asked them, no…told them, that they would give their experience and make an example of their shunning of their child. I hope it was difficult and awful and painful for them to do. It’s shameful and unchristian.
Reply
Darlene Alexander says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:05 pm
“I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there.”
Conditional love at its finest!! Why did that child return? To be with their Family – NOT with the religion. At least they are admitting to their emotional blackmail – it matters not that the child still may not ‘do Jehovah’s will’ – just that the blackmail WORKED! They are getting sicker and crazier every day.
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Dblaron42 says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:11 pm
Where to begin? Wow. There is a TV show on PBS here in the states called ” Keeping Up Appearances”; and I think one of the most ironic things in my experiences with the Borg (via my ex-wife) was that my ex absolutely LOVED this show… it used to kill me that she did not see the correlation of this show to how the borg operate.
Thankfully I do not have to deal with their crap anymore… and I have made it abundantly clear to my daughter that I would never ever ever shun her because we have different beliefs. Sadly she cannot count on the same from her mom.
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Mama Joy says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:30 pm
This sickens me….
Out of all the scriptures that states “Do not judge” or “show love” hundreds of times in bible ….. Yet, the JW’s pick one scripture that says something (when taken out of context) that states to get rid of your family. ……. So they take this one misused scripture to justify betraying their own children and casting them aside like the Samaritan woman. …… “Whoa to them that hurt these little children!”
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Ted says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:11 pm
Is this why we bring children into the World ? To impose our
beliefs on them ? So denying them the right to develop their
own ideals, their own philosophy on life?
How self righteous to assert ones own beliefs are the only valid
ones. And how harsh, how brutish, to withdraw natural affection
and association until our children conform.
To use the love that exists between family members, as a weapon
to control is obscene. It’s a method familiar to fascists and
dictators.
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Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.
Reply
Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:40 pm
@Susan,
Fantastic reasoning & using their own literature too. Love the comments on this.
Reply
alanv says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:54 am
Thanks for that comment Susan. It truly is amazing that the org condemn others for doing exactly what they do, except they do it even worse.
Reply
Karen says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:07 am
Perfectly said. Your point here is one of the things that contributed my awakening. Hopefully others are making note of this contradiction and starting to wake up as well.
Reply
J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:14 am
Susan what an awesome post. Can you site specifically the article in June 2013 you are referring to? That would be a big help! I’m having difficulty locating it. Thank you.
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Having watched the clip a second time I observed a few things missed after the first viewing. Those two watchtower automatons used coercion and hate in a twisted plot to recapture the kid. No one mentioned how the kid felt. That woman complained about how bad it was for her. How bitterly ironic it is when the man said they had a “fun night”. I would rather watch paint dry. I am not very articulate so please excuse the meandering. The kid was shunned because he was not toeing watchtower`s line. Hate rather than love was used to coerce the kid back. From watchtower`s rheumy eyes, the return should be to a fabricated entity known as a god. The kid did what it took to be reunited with his siblings and his progenitors. The entity was not in his equation to regain his loss. The kid will do just enough to stay within watchtower`s conduct parameters. I am bemused that there is not a great outcry aimed at the psychotic seven. Watchtower is more sinister and more dangerous than Jim Jones. This should chill peoples blood. As a very x jw I know what they are capable of. I believe that it will not end well.
Reply
withheld says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:08 pm
As a Jehovah Witness father with three young children I’m terrified about them becoming baptised. There is no way, or under any circumstances would I ever shun my children. And I know, I too would probably be disfellowshipped for this. I would love to leave this organization but there’s no way out. All of my family and friends are witnesses. I will do anything to keep my children from becoming baptised until they are of legal age and it’s their own choice.
Reply
danman says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:27 pm
So good to hear comments like “withheld”, I think there are many jw who are in similar thinking when it comes to child baptism. Your stand certainly is in more harmony with the scriptures. Jesus fully attained adulthood before baptism……what support does the GB have for haranguing jw parents to push their children into the baptismal pool? That is the real question.
Reply
Mara says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:34 pm
So infuriating when WT uses these experiences to try to prove that the emotional blackmail of shunning is loving and brings people back to the fold. For every person it brings back to WT, (for all the wrong reasons, I might add), there are probably 100 who avoid WT due to this sadistic practice. It was one of the very first things I finally had to admit was cruel and wrong…one of the main reasons I left the cult after 40 plus years! But they don’t feature experiences like mine on the program, do they!
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Trish Karr says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:16 pm
Being raised in this cult I know exactly how they operate. Yes its called emotional blackmail where they teach their followers to cut their loved ones off should they leave the religion, and blackmail them to return back to the religion if they want to be loved by their families or loved ones! Feel free to watch my award winning Documentary which was made on the story of my life. I tell all. How I was raised in the Jehovahs Witness religion and left to create a life of my own. Im living proof its not too late to change your life because life is what you make it. You can see my film online its called “Witness my Journey from Jehovahs Witness to Australia’s Party Queen” hope you enjoy watching it. It may enlighten those that are finding life difficult since leaving the religion.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
Hi Trish,
Looks like when you left you not only threw the baby out with the bath water, but the entire kitchen sink too!
Can’t say I agree with your libidinous way of life or your moral abandon, but my thoughts are with you in your efforts to help those suffering from breast cancer.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:58 am
Hi everyone. There is another anonymous here. This is not the same anonymous above commenting as the one who comments often.
Reply
airborne says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:50 pm
What a cruel practice. Those parents are heartless.
Reply
steve says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:56 pm
Just wondering how this couple was “qualified” to work at Warwick when obviously not presiding over their household in a fine way? If their children are adults then what sacrifice have they made? If their children are underage then they shouldn’t qualify for extra privileges of sacred service.
Reply
jay says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:17 pm
if only things would change somehow and GB would allow reform then so many people wouldn’t be so messed up. I long to see the day when this organization changes and cleansed of its hypocrisy..
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:55 pm
In 1968, the 192 page book The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life was published by the Watchtower Society. Laying the ground for shunning appeared early on in chapter 3, paragraph 12 on page 16:
12. “As you examine God’s Word, you will learn that your love for God will be put to the test. There may be individuals, perhaps even close friends or relatives, who will not approve of your examining the Scriptures. (1 Peter 4:4; Matthew 10:36, 37) They may try to discourage you. They may do this in all sincerity, because they do not know the marvelous truths found in the Bible. Perhaps you can help them. In other cases the opposition may come from persons who have no love for God. If this should occur, remember, having God’s approval is far more important than having the approval of men. It is God, not man, who will give you eternal life if you love him above everyone and everything else. (Matthew 22: 37-39)”
Later on they add on more powerful scriptures, such as this one:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25-26).
Those who disagree with the Governing Body and those who try to save you from this cult must be shunned.
Reply
Kat says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:23 pm
How can they equate leaving an organization of false prophets to leaving God?
As if God would have anything to do with this organization of lying false prophets! they dump their own kids in exchange for following 7 deluded liars and false prophets. Sick
Reply
Andrew says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:01 am
It’s all so hypocritical really. My parents didnt want me around for 10 years after I left but when they got older and to the point where they needed me to care for them they changed their tune. And the elders were the ones who told them that the congregation was not in the position to help them as it doesn’t do aged care. This happened after my father was loudly trumpeting to one and all in hospital that the congregation would help them. When the elders got wind of this they told him to be quiet and let their socalled apostate son do all the work. Hypocrites really.
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Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
I know of an elder that has given talks on how children should be responsible for their ageing or ill parents, but yet he doesn’t care for his own JW mother instead his mothers sisters husband cares for her and he has been inactive for over ten years, he feeds cares for her board free, I asked her why doesn’t your son care for you why should my brother have to financially support you, her answer he has three children and a wife to look after, yet my brother has his wife and son and works full time, and he is ill has had buy pass surgery, the elder Son of the mother is over twenty five yrs younger than my brother.
The hypocrisy stinks, and told this elder son exactly what I think of his hypocrisy, he just walked away.
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mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:43 am
This is awful! I had just uploaded a video two days before expressing the hurt I have suffered from my parents doing this very thing to me.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:22 am
mpm, I listened to your video and it does say exactly the same thing about your mother’s conditional love that the Society’s video of these two parents and how they looked at their son the very same way with only conditional love (not love but attention appearing to be love).
One of the very first things that new people are taught when they “study” the Bible with Witnesses is that they have to put God first in their lives, above all our relatives and friends. We were taught to do that but I was never under that much cult control that I could ever even think of saying such a despicable thing to one of my children as what your mother told to you.
It is so ironic in that Witnesses love to quote 2 Tim. 3:1-5 about how in the last days there would be critical times hard to deal with and one of those things depicting the last days would be having no natural affection and if any people perfectly depicts having no natural affection it is Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are the very epitome of having no natural affection.
Does the Society turn people into non-feeling, uncaring human beings or are non-feeling, uncaring people attracted to the Watchtower? Either way, they are non-feeling and uncaring and under cult mind control of a very evil Satanic organization.
People who are that controlled are capable of anything. They can be convinced that they are saving the lives of those disfellowshipped (or dance around like a chicken as under the hypnotic control of a hypnotist), but in the end, they are more convinced about the saving of their own lives at Armageddon than they are about saving the lives of their family and friends who have fallen away. It stands to reason (if a person is able to reason) that to shun a loved one just for not wanting to be a JW anymore, will only convince that other person more than anything that it truly is a non-Christian religion since Jesus taught love and forgiveness with the parable of the prodigal son.
The parents in this demonstration, show that they are arrogant and proud that they love the Organization more than their own children. In the Bible, arrogance and pride is not something that a God loves however. If these people were crying on stage, I might feel differently about them but they seemed very arrogant and proud to me. I don’t think that their children have any real feeling for them. I bet if you were to talk to their children, you might hear a very different story than the one they told on stage.
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Tony says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:16 am
When 2 JW ladies showed up at my door about a month ago I told them how disgusted I am by their practice of shunning. One of them tried to justify it by comparing it to sending a child to their room. When I told them of people suffering PTSD as a result of shunning they left.
Reply
da' says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:27 am
@ Erik
There you go, perfectly said. Keep you mouth shut and your family is YOUR BUSINESS, especially when it comes to YOUR CHILDREN. People wont know or talk about what you havent revealed to them. You may also think confiding in a close friend will bring encouragement . Wrong , it only brings more drama .
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Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:45 am
mpm I viewed you video a couple of days ago, and really touched my heart, so sorry for what you are going through, and I love your work.
Reply
mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Hey Kat, thank you for the kind words. It was shocking to see this shunning video right after I had posted, so sad.
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Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Going back jus to be with your family is a catch twenty two, you have your family but on the GB terms, and the agony of having to sit in every meeting while you just don’t agree is torment and one would feel like a hypocrite, its so sad, and it is emotional black mail.
Oh how I wish this religion would lose their charity status for this as its against human rights, and just maybe they would change.
This is what they print in the Awake for the public.
July 2009 Awake p29: “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.
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sirius says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:57 am
A few points of curiosity. How often do children return to the fold after being shunned, and what is THAT success rate? Do shunned children tend to rebel more? Is love conditional in the JW (faith) or unconditional? And lastly, if I were to put on a catholic hat I would silently close the door(shun) on all JWs, Mormons, Seventh Advents and anyone else who claims to be Christian but denies the Deity of Christ, Apostolic Faith and brings another teaching of another Jesus?
The early church never practiced shunning of excommunicated members. So, if a shunned female was on the roadside with a flat tire not one JW would come to her aid? This is what I find cruel & unusual punishment in the mind set of the JWs!
IMHO
Dogstar
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Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:08 am
Interesting when I became a JW I was asked to write a letter to denounce my baptism of my former faith, I was never baptised even as a baby in another religion, so I didn’t have to but many did, including a few of my relatives that were later converted.
But none of my relatives ever shunned any of us, because we chose a different belief, they were to pleased and now I know why, but still they never shunned us or treated us badly, always invited for get togethers, tolerated our no birthdays and xmas.
But as JW we are told to shun our own flesh and blood if they chose to leave even if they don’t join another religion, even when they are children. Its a cult.
Reply
rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:22 am
every time Jehovah witnesses are coming to my mind, is like some one gives me knives and remind me the years I lost in this organization under the deceptive of influence. the middle ages is still here.
Reply
Michele says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:41 am
This makes me sick to my stomach. It just boggles me how parents can think emotional blackmail is loving. If a child only comes back to the “truth” because he misses his family, NOT because he actually believes in the religion, is a joke in itself. The mind control and endless indoctrination that convinces so called “loving parents” to behave this way is disgusting to me. I should know. I dealt with it for 5 years. The pain this causes to everyone is despicable.
Reply
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
105 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
← Older Comments
Melka says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:42 am
This is all on the Organization as far as I’m concerned. I know plenty of parents who are supposed to be shunning their kids, but still communicate, and I have even myself in the past thought they weren’t doing the right thing by talking and communicating with their children, since there was no reason to come back if they didn’t feel “alone” and punished. It’s so disgusting. But being a formerly brainwashed individual, I can understand. And you are honestly so worried about that person dying at Armageddon. It’s unfathomable that this is a trap just to keep you in so that they can get their money, and you’re not allowed to talk to that person who might have license to google “history of Jehovah’s Witnesses” or something like that. That’s not even the thing that woke me up, but once I did, I more than anything else was so disappointed in myself that I actually shunned people that I did love. Mrs. Sutton did love her child, even though he was DF’d, there’s no question in my mind. We just need to see the demise of the Organization. These poor people think they’re saving the lives of their loved ones, by shunning them. If her child stayed out of the organization, she would probably go to her grave worrying about how her child will die at Armageddon. They’re mentally captive, and it’s hard to get free.
Reply
rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:51 am
The father: i am thinking where I was wrong? you don’t know where you when wrong? Is very simple. You and you wife teach your children the lies of the watchtower, and your children want to find out the truth, man The Hitler paranoid of inhumanity have contaminated the Jehovah’s witnesses brains. Nether he’s children have the right to examine the watchtower teachings in order to please seven man, and three stupid elders.
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sparlock says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:19 am
“Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.”
Thats exactly what i see in my mother. Her children didn’t become witnesses and she says beeing a pioneer is the only way to cope with this situation. She would rather kill herself than stop preaching 70 hours a month for the organization.
Reply
Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:52 am
The parable of the “Prodigal Son” demolishes the shunning
practice. The son was not kept on a short leash, he was
allowed to follow his own inclination, even though it was a
bad decision.
The father imposed no conditions on the sons return. The
way back was always open. “No strings attached”.
When the son did return. There was no meeting of village
elders to determine repentance, or whether a period of
probation was necessary. There was no legalistic system
interfering in what was purely a family concern.
The father saw the son in the distance and ran to him and
embraced him, showing spontaneous unconditional love.
The son then acknowledged his error without any coercion.
The joyful reunion of father and son was not accomplished
by shunning, ( which often results in a permanent rift ).
But by “Unconditional love”.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:25 am
@Ted . Your Comments are SO TRUE! The PRODIGAL SON is the WAY Jesus showed us how to treat Repentant Sinners…….INSTANT ASSOCIATION
NO JUDICIAL COMMITTEE of 3 ELDERS!!! NO ISOLATING the Repentant one for Maybe A YEAR or SO until 3 FALLIBLE ELDERS choose to Re-Instate the person or not!!! WE ARE ALL SINNERS & FALL SHORT of the Glory of God(Romans 3v23)
The PHARASAICAL 7 BROOKLYN GB MEN!!! GO Beyond ‘What is Written in Scripture’ & in Revelation that is Punishable with Death!!!(Rev.22v18,19)
Reply
Rick says:
June 7, 2015 at 8:09 am
Very good way to look at it Ted, I’ve often thought the same whenever I hear the example of the prodigal son used. Also, the son was hungry and homeless so he came back to live with his dad to be able to enjoy what he had before. The dad didn’t think twice, his love for the son was big and unconditional. The JWs should really “read” into this story and apply it in their lives but as long as the brain cord is connected to the mother ship (WT) I see very little chance of changes.
Reply
just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:45 am
I simply hate this organization, I really don’t know why I committed myself to it. I’ve grown up in this thing. they’re the only people know, they’re the ones who connect me to all my work. I would really wanna leave bt this whole disfellowshiping thing terrifies me. If I fade, all will know & will ask qns. I just don’t know.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 11:28 am
@just asking, when I stopped going to meetings (after 50 years) several asked me questions but didn’t want to know why I stopped going, except for one very nice person (not baptized but attended meetings) but most avoid me. Thank goodness, when she asked me why I quit, she assured me that she wouldn’t tell the elders and come to find out, she also hates the religion but didn’t have anybody else to confide in and when we got to talking, we shared a common belief that it’s a fraud. Her daughter who I studied with and was getting really involved, is fading also. My husband has told me that he hardly ever sees either of them anymore at the meetings (which makes me really happy).
If it’s any consolation, what are the Thursday night meetings like where you attend? If your Kingdom Hall is like I think most Kingdom Halls, there’s maybe half the attendance as when there’s a Circuit Overseer visiting. My husband said that last Thursday night, there was hardly anybody there and one of the elders gave a congregation needs talk which basically telling the congregation there was nothing to worry because they see the attendance being so low.
I had the courage to stop going and I think there’s a lot who force themselves to put their bodies in those seats because they are afraid of being stigmatized if they start missing meetings but you have to live your life your way. Don’t be a puppet to those people.
Don’t get to be 60 years old before realizing that there is no real love at the Kingdom Hall. It’s all conditional (which isn’t real love anyway). You don’t need that kind of love. We all deserve real friends and real love.
I personally wouldn’t write a letter of disassociation because in effect, you are saying that you are disfellowshipping them. It is all up to the person. If I disassociate myself, then I know that two of my children would be compelled to shun me and I don’t want them to have to go through that. If I didn’t care about anybody at the Hall, then I would write a letter of disassociation but I care too much about my children to do that to them and there are a bunch of really great people at my old Hall that I don’t want to do that too.
If you read Crisis of Conscience, you will see that there is no way that any God could be backing the Watchtower organization. It’s a fraud, passing itself off as a legitimate charity and sooner or later, the truth will come out and we will all be vindicated. It can’t go on forever. At least I hope I live long to see it collapse.
If you are young, please be your own person and don’t let that Organization control the rest of your life, just for fear of being disfellowshipped. There are real people out there who will be your friend and you will never find that in the Organization.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:15 am
@anonymous another fantastic post! There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love from JW’s!
Reply
J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:26 pm
Outstanding comment Anonymous! You hit the nail on the head for a lot of people.
I got deep into the fading process when I started community college and became very active on campus. I enrolled right after high school, when most of my JW friends were pressuring me to pioneer. Needless to say that ruffled a-lot of feathers at the hall. It was not until the 2013 convention when I heard “any continued education is a temptation to ensnare yourself in Satan’s system, through bad association and etc; if you go to college you are a tool of the devil.”
I heard that and immediately walked out of the assembly hall, enough was enough. Three generations of my family gave their youth to the organization; I refuse to do the same. I was pressured into getting baptized at 14, that was a huge mistake.
Stay strong, having family involved is the worst part, I share your pain. Expressing myself here has helped me a lot, as you know. The healing process is long but it’s still one foot in front of the other. Know that you are not alone in your struggle.
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:37 pm
I’m in the same situation… :( I think many are.
Reply
kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:26 pm
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
– Frederick Douglass
Reply
Shanti says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:27 am
There are many good articles available on the internet regarding the “Art of Fading”. Here is one.
http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/leaving-the-watchtower-fading.php
Reply
just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:54 am
How did I get myself into this trap?
Why did I bow to the pressure of getting baptised @ 13. One is better off a worldly man that a disfellowshiped jw.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Because…like me you were only 13, and that says it all.
Reply
J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:30 pm
Same here… I was 14.
Reply
Al says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:47 pm
It’s not your fault u were 13 how were u supposed to know. I was baptized at 12 with no understanding of the implications that would have later. I just quit going altogether 2 years ago and it is a total relief. So much anxiety every meeting and not feeling like you are doing enough gone!
I’m lucky though my family will still talk to me. I basically told them it wasn’t for me anymore but didn’t go into anymore detail and they left it at that. I thought about dissociating but that would result in my family shunning me since my dads an elder. So Im just inactive and am content with that. People in the hall will eventually give up trying to convince you, and you can start getting on with your life without interruption.
Sites like this one among others helped me to realize I am not the only one who went through this. Your not alone!
Reply
ruth lee says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
hmm funnily enough i had a coversation with my children this week both not nbtzd pubs yet we discussed df a bit my boy cannot get his tender heart around this poor boy i will have to toughen the little blighter up! irony folks i took both my children in my arms and promised them no matter what they do i will never ever ever shun ignore or turn a cold shoulder to them until i draw my last dying breath thay are my wonderful gift from my creator so why would i ever trash that draw your own conclusions feeling a little stronger day by day
Reply
Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 1:05 pm
In this interview we have spelled out for us, the real reason,
why many disfellowshipped ones return.
The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to
return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
So it was affection for the family, not the religion, that motivated
his return. Now the Son is compelled to go through a
meaningless routine, just going through the motions of being a JW.
Not worshipping in Spirit and Truth.
The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting
cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no
worthwhile purpose.
Reply
kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:12 pm
“but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there”
It would seem to me they have an issue conflating God and Religion, when they are seperate entities.
Is it not possible to be close to God and reject religion? Because thats exactly what Jesus did.
It would seem the quote really meant, “if you do not follow the philosophies this organization has set, no matter how they may change…”
Reply
Thetroof says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:25 pm
This org Is so cruel. I cant believe I fell for baptism at age 12. I was too young to understand anything
The GB is equal to Satan who can turn into an angel of light.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:40 pm
Ted excellent post
“The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
“The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no worthwhile purpose.
Reply
J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:21 am
There are a number of excellent arguments being made here. I’m going to take the liberty of re-posting one in particular that necessitates repeating:
“Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.”
Thank you Susan! What specific article were you quoting from? Is it from the public or study article of WT magazine?
Reply
anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:04 am
@J Brown, that quote is from the June 2013 Awake article, entitled “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
Reply
Jbrown says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:53 am
Thank you Anonymous. Found it! Wow just wow! I’ve heard of people who speak out both sides of their mouth. WT takes the cake on this!
A must read: June 2013 Awake “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
Reply
Innocent Son says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:56 am
So many excellent comments on this article.My brother who was a Elder at the time was completely broken when his eldest son rejected the ‘Truth’ He followed the Watchtowers’ instructions and disowned him.This gut -renching cruel practice contributed to his Mental Breakdown and demise.A parents’ love should be unconditional, just like the parable of the prodigal son…
Reply
just asking says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:22 am
I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half are nt interested? Why can’t they just provide room for baptism cancellation especially for some of us who were minors at the time of baptism? I am in a meeting right now but all am listening to is nothing but rubbish. I even can’t believe I once believed this nonsense. THIS GONNA BE MY LAST ONE.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:25 am
@just asking, when I became convinced of all the lies of the Society, I stopped cold turkey with going to meetings but it still took me quite a few months of worrying what if the Society is right about Armageddon?.
If a lot of people are like me, the meetings were boring and tedious and I had to force myself to go in service each month and I dreaded assemblies and I hated to think of all those friends at the assemblies who wouldn’t see my face there at meetings and assemblies. It was all those things that made me keep going.
Now that I see how completely what a fraud it is, I only pity all those who are still in that situation and can’t get out except to stop going to the meetings like I did and then have to go through what I am going through right now, knowing what the real “truth” is but not being able to tell them.
The thing is though, that we have no way of conversing with all those who are still going to the meetings to find out just how they feel. I would bet though that the scare of Armageddon is what keeps the majority going even though in their heart of hearts, they wonder if it’s all bunk and they are being made fools of?
That is why Lloyd’s idea this web site is simply genius!!!
Reply
Alan says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:00 am
I can see a lot of parallels between the apostate shunning issue and the trials of the LGBT community. Being such a strong advocate (without exception) for human rights, I regard John Cedars as being something of a silent hero for this oppressed group, and I’m sure he, more than most, can relate to their experience of social isolation. As the recent developments with Bruce-now Caitlyn-Jenner have shown, there is still considerable resistance to enlightened human expression, and shunning must be recognised for what it is: a cynical weapon that is used to limit our freedoms. Let us all stand together on this issue, regardless of our sexuality, creed, colour, beliefs, etc. Take courage from Bruce’s decision to become Caitlyn, regardless of the hateful reaction of an increasingly small-minded minority. We shall win this war for the sake of all humanity. It’s our time now!
Reply
rob says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:04 am
I knew so many individuals that got reinstated just for the ability to associate with their family and friends.
After their reinstatement most of them never went in service again and rarely attended meetings – but they got rid of the shunning.
This proves to me that reinstatement has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual guidance – just another crazy procedural and pharasiacal rule.
Reply
danman says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:33 am
Just asking, asked:
“I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half aren’t interested?”
All because of one man Joseph Rutherford. A pompous self centered (charlatan) who considered himself appointed by Jehovah and the angels to interpret God’s Word (?) the bible. This man who enjoyed not one but two 16 cylinder Cadillac’s, fine silk shirts, a farm on Staten Island (my mother his personal maid), illegal beer and wine cellar during the prohibition, hundreds and thousands of then known Bible Students at his every beck and call. Then had the gual to build a mansion in San Diego and say it was built for David and other bible characters, who were coming back very soon. By the way, my father drove those caddies for him, and also carried a 45 Smith and Wesson automatic for da judges protection. My sister has the license to prove it in our family records.
This fellow is responsible for almost all of the jw doctrine still followed today. He ushered in fanatical stands on Christendom, neutrality, flag salute, no blood, no christmas, no birthdays, 144,000 vs ‘other sheep’, only organizational appointments of elders etc., and he personally cemented these teachings by making outlandish asserstions regarding ‘millions now living will never die’, ancient bible characters coming back to life on earth in 1925 and even after never gave up on it for several years thereafter.
He ruled with an iron fist, he was chief writer, chief editor, chief of all chiefs, my father said that the judge could tell someone to jump off the cliff, and that person would feel hard pressed to no do as he was told. Talk about strong personality, he had one and more. He personally mentored Knathan Knorr, Fred Franz (of 1975 fame), Milton Henchel, and other neophytes who were to take over the helm upon this charlatan’s death in 1942.
The answer to your question imo is simple, it is men who have accepted other men as representatives for God himself. These people actually convince themselves that even when the utterances of these self proclaimed men of God are proven absolute garbage, with no evidence or even semblance of accuracy, the errors were allowed by Jehovah God…..so that future arrogant self appointed men of god can correct the errors (by new light) of the old former men of god. Get it?
Belief in any interpretation of the bible message is in and of itself giving full trust in man. Because you cannot point to any religious doctrine, policy, rule, or pronouncement, that does not somewhere sometime originate from a man or group of men. Right?
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:04 pm
Do not worry, Jehovah’s Witnesses (including those parents) are imitators of their god Jehovah when it comes to coercing people who courageously reject his/her dictatorship.
(Amos 7:17) . . .this is what Jehovah says: “Your wife will become a prostitute in the city, and your sons and your daughters will fall by the sword. Your land will be apportioned out with a measuring line, and you yourself will die in an unclean land; and Israel will surely go into exile from its land.”’”
You see, they resemble their god!!
Reply
Alex says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:13 pm
The fact that this practice of shunning is encouraged by the WTBTS, of which I am also a victim too indicates so strongly to me that this organisation in Britain needs to be investigated fully by the Charity Commission and put to task to.prove how it benefits the community by actively encouraging the tearing apart of families, the foundation of any community. It needs to be stripped of its charity status, and its tax free position and exposed for what this mind numbing cult is: A dictatorial, ruthless and self absorbed movement out to destroy lives, spiritually, psychologically and in some cases physically. It has to go!!!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:33 am
Alex,
Have you complained to the Charity Commission about shunning yet?
If not, I strongly urge you to do so. You can complain online!
I encourage all of us Brits to do so if we have not already!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
BeenMisead says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:18 pm
I hate the expression in the “The Truth”.
Here’s why:
Was it true when Rutherford said in 1919?:
O “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.”
O “Armageddon is coming in 1925.”
O “Abraham, Moses and other notable men of faith would be resurrected in 1925.”
Was it true in 1969 when Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz said?:
O “If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things.”
O “Armageddon is coming on or around 1975.”
O “The generation of 1914 will not pass away until the end comes.”
O “In the 1980’s they said: The end would come before the end of the 20th Century.”
—————————————————
All of the above was NOT true!! So if anything it should be called “The Falsehood”!!
Reply
Misha Anouk says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:42 pm
I found this video especially hard to watch as I imagine my parents would say the exact same thing. This organization is getting more and more gross by the minute.
On another note: Is this the same guy who has been featured on the monthly broadcast?
Reply
Sarah says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:48 pm
Oh wow. I can almost guarantee they use my parents for this part. Either that or they will have to sit there ashamed and crying. I’m not sure which hurts worse.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:15 pm
@Sarah, I can’t think of anything that could hurt worse than having your parents ashamed of you just because you don’t share their religious views.
No matter how good a person you are or what you have accomplished in life, you are nothing to your parents if you don’t share their religion.
A person can divorce a cruel mate and go on with your life, but everyone needs a parent’s love. What young person can afford a therapist when they are being blackmailed into faking a belief in their parent’s religion just so they can stay in their parent’s good graces?
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 7:30 pm
It’s interesting how the Watchtower Society has presented two opposing views on how to deal with children who have gone wrong. Contrast this assembly shunning experience with the video in the link below, where no shunning occurred.
In the Watchtower video “The Prodigal Returns”, we are presented with an upper-middle class family in which two brothers work with their father in a construction business. The family constantly dwells on pleasing Jehovah by spending every possible moment in personal study, attending meetings and going out in field service.
Then, the younger brother decides to pursue a worldly career and his older brother (who would have made a great Nazi) tries to shame his little brother into giving up this idea. The little brother leaves home, goes to the big city and ends up wallowing in sin and degradation.
Once the younger brother realizes his mistake, he returns home to the open arms of his parents and his congregation. All is forgiven — except by the older brother who feels resentment because his father has lavished affection on the younger brother who sinned and ignored the older brother’s total submission to Watchtower proclamations.
Finally, the family in the video, who did not shun their child, is reunited and they all live happily ever after — just like the assembly family who did shun their child. Now we have two Watchtower approved methods which can be used to bring prodigals back into the fold.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/prodigal-son-returns/#?insightsearch_id=0364613b-4340-4aec-90a7-193f31ddf17d&insightsearch_result_index=0
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 7, 2015 at 9:03 pm
What a Joke these people have come really completely delusional. And when you become that way then you become psychotic in nature eventually. Your living in a altered reality without any regard for your actions upon your own flesh and blood. These are mentally sick people devoting their life to men and not the God of the bible
Reply
Vivian says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:33 pm
What do you all think? Are the seven guys making the calls in NY simply indoctrinated coupled with not very thoughtful and thorough in their reflections or are they completely aware of the farce they have continued? Are they simply models and heirs of indoctrination trying to save people and their families from armageddon? Do they truly and honestly believe they are being moved along and used by a god? I would think that before I could believe my actions and thoughts were being inspired by god I would have to be clearly and completely mentally sick. But, indoctrination is a very strong strong force. I cant decide. In the lightest brightest terms i would call the men “irresponsible” and “thoughtless” and at worst, “monsters” and disgusting immoral garbage.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:51 am
@Vivian, my personal opinion is that Lett thinks he is in the “truth” because of the way he gestures when he gives his speeches. It’s like he’s using every point on the speech counsel slip that we got at the Ministry School when we were giving talks and being counseled but the others don’t seem to care about gestures etc. I think if Lett realized he was caught up in a huge scam, he wouldn’t care about getting G’s on his speech counsel slip.
When Losch gives his talks, he reads them and he is always referencing the Watchtower and rarely references the Bible. He says it like this: “The Watchtower says this and the Watchtower says that”. I think Losch is not stupid and realizes it’s a scam but doesn’t know how to disillusion 8 million people with coming out and telling the truth and basically destroying all their hopes and dreams and admitting to the world that they had devoted their lives to nothing and even lost lives due to blood. If that is what has happened to these men, then to me, that would have to be the worst position to be in because it would mean that they really do have a conscience but are caught in a trap they can’t get out of.
David Splane I think knows it is a scam and doesn’t know how to escape. When he gives talks, he seems like he’s in some kind of agony with worry written all over his face.
Sam Herd (with his gold watches) seems to me to know it’s a scam but will take it if it means power and prestige and doesn’t care about the rank and file.
The rest, it seems like to me, are like non thinking ostriches with their heads buried in the sand rather than face reality (big bodies and small brains).
My old Kingdom Hall is full of ostriches and I was one of them until about a year ago so I know how it happens. It happened to the best of us.
If I had a conscience and had any doubts at all and I was one of the Governing Body members, I’d be so torn, that I don’t know how I could live through it without quitting like Ray Franz did.
That is what makes me wonder if they have consciences or not or are just so worried about what it would do to 8 million people to find out it is all a scam.
Maybe they can’t even tell their own wives about any of their doubts because they are too afraid to. They can’t confide in anybody either, just like the rest of us can’t.
I can’t think of a more hideous situation to be put into.
Reply
Mike says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:40 pm
Hello Lloyd I hope you don’t mind me using your first name.
If you haven’t (which I doubt) have a read of Ray Franz
In Search of Christian Freedom, Ch10 Sheperds of the Flock and Ch11 The Misuse of Disfellowshipping I recommend it to everybody who read your last blog.
Thank you for this site and your courage.
Mike Sydney Australia
Reply
Silent admirer says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:00 am
This is the idiot organization my cousin seeks to follow. To what levels of depravity these JW’s have to go to for him to open his eyes. Curiously he has never considered that by his own standards , his father should have called my cousin apostate(He is Hindu) and kicked my cousin out of his life.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:37 am
Thank you for the latest post/video and all of the work that you do, Cedars. This is a painful and difficult subject and you are adept at handling such with honesty, insight, and compassion.
There have already been many beautiful and heartfelt comments posted. Not much I can add but one perspective:
As a person who was disfellowshipped, I felt for many years the guilt and shame borne out of the belief that my family and Organization had the “moral high ground”. I no longer hold to that illusion and neither should anyone else out there who has been kicked out (or walked out), shunned, rejected, and discarded.
One important thing to note is that the people in this video, like many other JWs (including my family), are not basing this decision (and other decisions) on an evaluation of moral tenets but in following orders of their religion and leaders. They have been indoctrinated to relinquish their ability to think for themselves and instead of exercising their moral agency they simply fall back to “just following orders”. This, arguably, is an amoral stance. Part of me has some compassion for them. But, history will not be as kind. Modern society has come to understand that “just following orders” is indefensible.
I noticed a number of posts by people who stay in so as to avoid being shunned. My heart goes out to all of them. I cannot and will not speak for them or their circumstances but, as for me, I no longer feel compelled to hold on to my family. In 30 years, the only time they contacted me is when they wanted money or something else. Their love is conditional. Their currency is shame and guilt. They happily and mindlessly adhere to the rules and use love as leverage. I have no need of that and, frankly, I refuse to negotiate with extortionists. What I gave up I have more than gained. There are better people just about everywhere else.
Reply
gameisover says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:48 am
And what about kids that completely shun their elderly parents?
That’s even more pathetic.
That is what is happening to us.
I feel sure even those from ISIS don’t do that t their parents or to their children.
THis is truly an evil cult masquerading for the true religion.
Reply
James Broughton says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:16 am
Gameisover is correct. An evil cult masquerading for the true religion. The only ones who can’t see that are the JWs themselves. But there is hope. Many of us were there once and we came through!!!
Reply
just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:23 am
JF Rutherford put it right when he referred to his “religion as a racket & a snare”
Reply
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New videos are constantly being uploaded to the John Cedars YouTube channel.
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11 Responses to Videos
KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
Reply
george says:
August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
Sorry Cedars, I can only access the first video on my I pad. There are a lot of over sized play icons and they won’t work.
Reply
Luke says:
October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
Reply
Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
Reply
Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?
http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
Reply
Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
Reply
Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
Reply
Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
Reply
Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
Reply
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Top Posts & Pages
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate "valuable things"
Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate "valuable things"
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